Greece Riots Photos: Athens Burns Following Mass Protests

[Baron Samedi]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/12/greece-riots-photos-athens-protests_n_1272052.html

Damn.....

[Zephyr]

Well, there are rumours that Greece is going to leave the Euro sooner or later, if not the EU.

A parliament enlargement may not be needed in 2013 as Croatian MPc can occupy Greek seats... :\

[Queen B]

Well, there are rumours that Greece is going to leave the Euro sooner or later, if not the EU.


Actually that riots happen , because Greeks want to leave the Euro, and prefer to go bankrupt. With the measures taken from Troika, there is not development scheduled.
And since there is no develpment, a country can't get out of this turmoil.
Every money that Greece saves from the extra taxes and the cut-off of salaries of normal workers go to pay off loans, and the high interest of loans.
There is no development in the economy, there is no cash to be circulated and stabilize our economy a bit, and instead of having more new jobs, we have less and less.
That can't lead to a better future, only to a worst.

That's why austerity measures did not help and won't help.The so-called 5 wise people of Economology in German, are supporting this...



However, I am very saddened when I see such actions. Destroying buildings and cars won't help on anything.

[Flintlocke]

I went today in the morning to see what had happened.

The Athinaion building which was this 1900's neoclassical and one of the most beautiful in Athens was totally destroyed, it's floors had collapsed inwards and it was still smoking after so many hours. The damage could be in the millions. An H&M store was smashed and looted.

A 5 storie bookstore in Panepistimiou was mostly burned and looted but can be restored.

In Klathmonos square there are many stores that sell electrical appliances, mostly TV's. Those were looted as well.

A bank in Monastiraki was burned and wrecked also a building nearby was totally burned and even its plumbing was destroyed, water was flowing everywhere.

At Ermou street, which is the main commercial street in Athens, things weren't so bad. The news said every store was looted and destroyed but it's not true, most were OK and doing business. About 3-4 stores had smashed glass but only one shoe store was looted. The cafeterias were fully operational and doing business.

Sidewalks were wrecked in many places to get rocks to throw to the cops.

[zack]

Tear the EU down. You wont have control of your immigration policies until the EU is defunct and you have national sovereignty again!

[Siberyak]

What is the end game for all this I wonder

[derLowe]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/12/greece-riots-photos-athens-protests_n_1272052.html

Damn.....

That will only compound their problems not solve them.

[Loki]

I really feel for you Greeks. Life must be hard out there at the moment. Try and retain your sanity, life WILL eventually get better. :(

[Payens]

Economic collapse, although it is a very dramatic, unpleasant and socially devastating event could perhaps safe us, including the Greeks, as a people from the EU and what it represents and imposes; globalization, egalitarianism, destruction of the Europeans, etc...

[The Lawspeaker]

N6OCIn1QArw
'Greece doomed, economy total farce & fiction!'


The Greek parliament has approved new harsh austerity legislature needed to secure a 130-billion-euro bailout from the EU and the IMF in efforts to avoid devastating default. This comes amid violent riots against the vote in Athens. The lawmakers voted early Monday in favor of the bill that will cut 15,000 public-sector jobs and lower the minimum wage by 20 per cent. Patrick Young, from investment consultants, DV Advisors, says whatever happens in Greece, there's no saving it from a collapse that will be felt across Europe.

[morski]

I suppose it has already been posted, but...


FW: Common Appeal for the Rescue of the Peoples of Europe

Attached below please find an appeal related to ongoing financial, social and political crisis. Appeal is created by Mikis Theodorakis and Manolis Glezos in order to addressed to personalities and intellectuals in your countries.

Common Appeal for the Rescue of the Peoples of Europe

65 years after the defeat of nazism and fascism, European people are today confronting a dramatic threat, this time not military, but a financial, social and political one.

A new “Empire of Money” has been systematically attacking one European country after another in the last 18 months, without facing any substancial resistance.

European governments not only fail to organize a collective defense of European people against the markets, but, instead, try to “calm” the markets by imposing policies that remind us of the way governments tried to confront nazism in the ’30s. They organize “debt wars” between the peoples of Europe, just like when they were driven from the belle époque to World War 1.

The offensive of the markets initiated a war against Greece, an EU member-state, whose people have played a decisive role in the resistance against barbarity and the liberation of Europe in World War 2. In the beginning, this war was a communicative war, which reminded us of the campaigns against hostile, outcast countries, like Iraq or Yugoslavia. This campaign presented Greece as a country of lazy and corrupted citizens, while attempting to blame the “PIIGS” of Europe and not the international banks for the debt crisis.

Shortly, this offensive evolved into a financial one, which caused the submission of Greece under a status of limited sovereignty and the intervention of the IMF to the internal affairs of the Eurozone.

When they got what they wanted from Greece, the markets targeted the other, smaller or larger countries of the European periphery. The aim is one and common in all cases: The full guarantee of the interests of the banks against the states, the demolition of the European welfare state, which has been a cornerstone of European democracy and culture, the demolition of European states and the submission of the remaining state structures to the new “International of Money”.

The EU, which was presented to its peoples as a means for collective progress and democracy, tends to become the means for terminating prosperity and democracy. It was introduced as a means of resistance to globalization, but the markets wish it to be an instrument of this globalization.

It was introduced to German and other European peoples as a means of peaceful increase of their power and prosperity, but the way that all peoples are abandoned to be the pray of financial markets, destroys the image of Europe and turns the markets into actors of a new financial totalitarianism, into the new bosses of Europe.

We are facing the danger of repeating the financial equivalent of World War 1 and World War 2 in our continent and be dissolved into chaos and decomposition, in favor of an international Empire of Money and Weapons, in the economic epicentre of which lies the power of the markets.

The peoples of Europe and the world are facing a historically unprecedented concentration of financial but also political and media power by the international financial capital, ie by a handful of financial institutes, rating agencies and a political and media class redeemed by them, with more centers outside, than inside Europe. These are the markets that attack today in one European country after another, using the leverage of debt to demolish the European welfare state and democracy.

The “Empire of Money” now requires a fast, violent, brutal transformation of a Eurozone country, Greece, into a country of the third world, with a so-called program of “rescue“, in fact the “rescue” of banks who lent the country. In Greece, the alliance of banks and the political leaderships imposed -through the EU, the ECB and the IMF- a program that equals to to “economic and social murder” of the country and its democracy, and organizes the looting of the country before the bankruptcy to which it leads, wishing to make it the scapegoat of the global financial crisis and use it as a “paradigm” to terrorize all European peoples.

The policy that is currently conducted in Greece and attempts to spread, is the same applied in Pinochet’s Chile, Yeltsin’s Russia or Argentina and will have the same results, if not discontinued immediately. As a result of a program that supposedly intended to help the country, Greece isnow on the verge of economic and social disaster; it is used as a guinea pig to study people’s reactions to social Darwinism and terrify the entire European Union, with what can happen to one of its members.

The markets may also be pushing and using the leadership of Germany in actions of destruction of the European Union. But it constitutes an act of extreme political and historical blindness for the dominant forces of the EU and first of all, for Germany, to think that there can be any project of European integration or even simple cooperation, on the ruins of one or more members of the Eurozone.


The planned demolition of major, globally significant political and social achievements of the European peoples, can not establish any kind of European Union. It will lead to chaos and disintegration and it will promote the emergence of fascist solutions in our continent.

In 2008 private banking giants of Wall Street forced the states and state banks to bail them out of the crisis they themselves created, by paying with the taxpayers’ money the cost of their enormous fraud, such as mortgages, but also the operational cost of an unregulated casino-capitalism, imposed in the last twenty years. They turned their own crisis into a public debt crisis.


Now they are using the crisis and debt, which they themselves created, to deprive the states and the citizens of the few powers they still hold.

This is one part of the debt crisis. The other is that financial capital, together with the political forces supporting it globally, imposed an agenda of neoliberal globalization, which inevitably leads to the relocation of production outside Europe and the downward convergence of social and ecological standards of Europe with those of the Third World. For many years they hid this process behind loans, but now they use the loans to completeit.

The “International of Money”, thatwishes to eliminate any notion of state in Europe, threatens Greece today, Italy or Portugal tomorrow; it encourages the confrontation among European peoples and puts the European Union before the dilemma whether to transform into a dictatorship of the markets or to dissolve. It aims at making Europe and the world to regress in a state like the one before 1945, or even before the French Revolution and the Enlightenment.

In ancient times, the abolition, by Solon, of the debts which forced the poor to be slaves of the rich, the so-called Seisachtheia reform, laid the foundations for the birth, in ancient Greece, of the ideas of democracy, citizenship, politcs and Europe, the foundations of European and world culture.


Struggling against the class of wealth, the citizens of Athens led the way in the constitution of Pericles and the political philosophy of Protagoras, who declared that “Man is the measure above all money”.

Today, the wealthy classes are attempting to avenge ths spirit of man: “The markets are the measure above all men”is the motto that our political leaderships willingly embrace, in alliance with the devil of money, as Faust did.

A handful of international banks, rating agencies, investment funds, a global concentration of financial capital without historical precedent, claims power in Europe and the world and prepares to abolish the states and our democracy, using the weapon of debt to enslave the peoples of Europe, putting in place of the incomplete democracy we have, the dictatorship of Money and Banks; the power of a totalitarian empire of globalization, the political center of which is outside continental Europe, despite the presence of powerful European banks at the heart of the empire.

They started from Greece, using it as a guinea pig, to move then to the other countries of the European periphery, and gradually to the center. The hope of some European countries to eventually escape, just proves that today’s European leaders face the threat of a new “financial fascism”, not better than the way they faced the threat of Hitler during the inter-war period.


It is not by accident that a big part of the media controlled by bankers chose to attack against the European periphery, by naming these countries as “pigs”, and also turned to a contemptuous, sadistic, racist campaign of the media they own, not only against the Greeks, but against the ancient Greek heritage and the ancient Greek civilization. This choice shows the deeper, underlying goals of the ideology and the values of financial capital, which promotes capitalism of destruction.

The attemptof a part of the German media to humiliate symbols such as the Acropolis or the Venus de Milo, monuments which were respected even by Hitler’s officers, is nothing but an expression of the deep disdain of bankers, who control these media, not so much against the Greeks, but mainlyagainst the ideas of freedom and democracy, which were born in this country.

The financial monster produced four decades of tax exemption for the capital, all kinds of “market liberalization”, widespread deregulation, abolition ofall barriers to the flows of capital and commodities, constant attacks against the state, massive acquisition of political parties and media, ownership of the global surplus from a handful of vampire-banks of Wall Street. Now, this monster, a true “state behind the States”, is revealed claiming the completion of the financial and political “permanent coup d’ etat“, carried out for over than four decades.

Facing this attack, the political forces of the European right-wing and social democracy seem compromised after decades of “entryism” by financial capital, the most important centersof which are non-European. On the other hand, trade-unions and social movements are still not strong enough to block this attack decisively, like they repeatedly did in the past. The new financial totalitarianism seeks to take advantage of this situation, in order to impose finite, irreversible conditions across Europe.

There is an urgent need for an immediate, cross-border coordination of action by intellectuals, people of the arts and literature, spontaneous movements, social forces and personalities who comprehend the importance of the stakes; we need to create a powerful front of resistance against the advancing “totalitarian empire of globalization”, before it is too late.

Europe can survive only if wepromote a united response against the markets, a challenge bigger than theirs, a new European «New Deal».

- We must immediately stop the attack against Greece and other countries of the EU periphery; we must stop the irresponsible and criminal policy of austerity and privatization, which leads directly to a crisis deeper than the one of 1929.

- Public debts must be radically restructured across the Eurozone, particularly on the expense of the private banking giants. Banks must be recontrolled and the financing of European economy must be under national and European social control. It is not possible to let the financial keys of Europe in the hands of banks like Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, UBS, the Deutsche Bank etc. We must ban the uncontrolled financial derivatives, which are the spearhead of the destructive financial capitalism, and create real economic development, instead of speculative profits.

- The present architecture, based on the Maastricht Treaty and the WTO rules,has established a debt production machine in Europe. We need a radical change of all Treaties, the submission of the ECB under political control by the European peoples, a “goldenrule” for minimum social, fiscal, environmental standards in Europe. We urgently need a change of paradigm; a return to the stimulation of growth through the stimulation of demand, via new European investment programs, a new regulation, taxation and control of international capital and commodities flows; a new form of smart and reasonable protectionism in an independent Europe, which will be the protagonist in the fight for a multipolar, democratic, ecological, social planet.

We appeal to the forces and individuals who share these ideas, to converge into a broad, European front of action as soon as possible; to produce a European transitional program, to coordinate our international action, so as to mobilize the forces of the popular movement, to reverse the current balance of power and overthrow the current historically irresponsible leaderships of our countries, in order to save our people and our societies before it is too late for Europe.

Athens, October 2011

Mikis Theodorakis

Manolis Glezos

http://arirusila.wordpress.com/2011/10/11/fw-common-appeal-for-the-rescue-of-the-peoples-of-europe/

[Eldritch]

As painful as it will be (temporarily), Greece must declare bankruptcy and leave the €uro. You would be doing all of Europe favour if you did that now.

Your other option is to have all your natural resources, historical treasures, industry, infrastructure, ports etc. etc. robbed and their proceeds diverted outside of Greece, and perpetual debt slavery.

Where's Kanellos the Riot Dog when we need him ?!? :(

[morski]

The same scheme was forced on Bulgaria in the 90s. NWO comming to your country next...

[Queen B]

As painful as it will be (temporarily), Greece must declare bankruptcy and leave the €uro. You would be doing all of Europe favour if you did that now.
Actually, bankruptcy will help Greece more than anyone else.
But bankruptcy will ruin Eurozone, and especially Germany.
If you haven't notice, they do everything so we don't go bankrupt.


Your other option is to have all your natural resources, historical treasures, industry, infrastructure, ports etc. etc. robbed and their proceeds diverted outside of Greece, and perpetual debt slavery.
Funny.

Where's Kanellos the Riot Dog when we need him ?!? :(
Kanellos dies. But loukanikos is doing the same. ;)

[antonio]

I really feel for you Greeks. Life must be hard out there at the moment. Try and retain your sanity, life WILL eventually get better. :(

Im not too optimistic. What is clear is there exists a unbalance between globalized economy poles (China and similars vs Occident) life conditions that is been traumaticaly corrected. Though maybe Im not optimistic because Im not a big fan of hard work on even fair salary: in fact Im lately into thinking about Cuba as the fairest working environment for me: f.e. in a Cuban think-thank, of course not serving mojitos :D

Anycase it's hard feeling simpathetical on those unsensitive vandals: no wonder they have no future, though in other times they would find one in a fucking prison.

[Radojica]

Somehow this reminds me on something :icon_ask:


hopefully it won't happen to Greece...

[antonio]

Somehow this reminds me on something :icon_ask:


hopefully it won't happen to Greece...

Well, the fact is average Greeks are on being relegate their life conditions to a more Second World balkanics ones, BTW their real environment (not UE ilusory one). Not much of a drama as long as Third World one dont begin to swim out. :coffee:

From the distance the most shocking condition is the expensiveness of no-elaborated food compared with Spain (I suppose Serbian case is the same) probably because an updated or poorly developed Agriculture. Anycase that was a preexistent condition.

[Loki]

Actually, bankruptcy will help Greece more than anyone else.
But bankruptcy will ruin Eurozone, and especially Germany.
If you haven't notice, they do everything so we don't go bankrupt.


You are absolutely right. If Greece went bankrupt, returned to the drachma etc ... the drachma would initially go into freefall like the Turkish lira some years ago. But it would boost things like tourism and jobs a lot, and will eventually bounce back like Turkey did.

On the other hand, if Greece bankrupts it might cause a domino effect all over Europe, starting with Spain, Italy and Ireland. That is why the EU cannot afford a Greek default.

Longer term, though, I think it is best for Greece's interests if it stays in the EU, or the EU collapses as an entity entirely. But to sit excluded on the sidelines is not good either.

Some numbers:

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/58593000/gif/_58593675_greece_visual_factbox_304.gif

Source (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17092964)

[Catrau]

As painful as it will be (temporarily), Greece must declare bankruptcy and leave the €uro. You would be doing all of Europe favour if you did that now.



This Finn talk again??? is it in Europe's interest or in your own interest?

United we stand, the Greeks need Europe and in the end we all need them to stay in EZ either. What's happening is a big lesson to the southern politicians but also for the rest of Europe, we need a solution together and please stop this selfish talk.

[Eldritch]

This Finn talk again??? is it in Europe's interest or in your own interest?

United we stand, the Greeks need Europe and in the end we all need them to stay in EZ either. What's happening is a big lesson to the southern politicians but also for the rest of Europe, we need a solution together and please stop this selfish talk.

Mmm. Finn talk again? :confused:

It's not selfishness to not want to ruin your own economy trying to salvage something that cannot be salvaged any longer. As Dandelion pointed out, Greece's bankruptcy, which is inevitable -- it can happen sooner or it can happen later -- is in your own interest.

Don't think that I am not sympathetic, because I am. I like Greek people in general and I have a certain Greek friend whom I love dearly. But please do pack in the selfishness thing. It has the off-putting aroma of entitlement.

[Catrau]

Mmm. Finn talk again? :confused:

It's not selfishness to not want to ruin your own economy trying to salvage something that cannot be salvaged any longer. As Dandelion pointed out, Greece's bankruptcy, which is inevitable -- it can happen sooner or it can happen later -- is in your own interest.

Don't think that I am not sympathetic, because I am. I like Greek people in general and I have a certain Greek friend whom I love dearly. But please do pack in the selfishness thing. It has the off-putting aroma of entitlement.

I've got long term memory.
This is a Finn speech from the early beginning, were you so sure then of the Greek proclaimed bankruptcy??

[Eldritch]

The beginning of what? Believe it or not, even us Finns are individual human beings, rather than some Borg-like hive mind.

Look, Finn-speech does not invalidate the points the speaker has to say. You may not like the person or what he has to say, but there you have it.

[poiuytrewq0987]

As painful as it will be (temporarily), Greece must declare bankruptcy and leave the €uro. You would be doing all of Europe favour if you did that now.

Your other option is to have all your natural resources, historical treasures, industry, infrastructure, ports etc. etc. robbed and their proceeds diverted outside of Greece, and perpetual debt slavery.

Where's Kanellos the Riot Dog when we need him ?!? :(

Actually, they don't want to leave the EU because they would lose their veto power which means they won't be able to veto my country from starting its negotiation process. :laugh:

[Queen B]

Actually, they don't want to leave the EU because they would lose their veto power which means they won't be able to veto my country from starting its negotiation process. :laugh:

EU and Eurozone are different things

[poiuytrewq0987]

EU and Eurozone are different things

You got a point there. :D

I would like to add one additional point about the issue. I do believe it's largely the Greeks' fault for radicalizing Macedonia. Before 1991, only few people actually subscribed to the ancient Macedonia story and they were largely concentrated in the diaspora. But with Greek obstruction, Macedonians tried to find out why... and when they found out why, they basically got radicalized and voted SDSM out (moderate post-Yu party) and voted in VMRO-DPMNE. The party that's responsible for the current politcal landscape in Skopje.

Let historians decide history, not politicians... is basically the only thing I need to say on this.

[Queen B]

You got a point there. :D

I would like to add one additional point about the issue. I do believe it's largely the Greeks' fault for radicalizing Macedonia. Before 1991, only few people actually subscribed to the ancient Macedonia story and they were largely concentrated in the diaspora. But with Greek obstruction, Macedonians tried to find out why... and when they found out why, they basically got radicalized and voted SDSM out (moderate post-Yu party) and voted in VMRO-DPMNE. The party that's responsible for the current politcal landscape in Skopje.

Let historians decide history, not politicians... is basically the only thing I need to say on this.

Historian have already decided. You just have to accept their decision :coffee:

[poiuytrewq0987]

Historian have already decided. You just have to accept their decision :coffee:

Did I say I disagreed with their decision in my post? I'm talking about Greek obstruction that created the current situation in Macedonia. Whether Greeks like it or not, they were wrong to obstruct Macedonia from joining international organizations. They are responsible for the political radicalization. Last year, I joked with my cousin's boyfriend telling him that it was ridiculous to build a statue of Filip II in this one place. He got pretty angry but couldn't do anything lest he risk upsetting my cousin. :laugh:

It's not like Macedonia posed a military threat to your country nor would historians side with us. We posed absolutely zero threat, and yet, Greek politicans obstructed and radicalized the Macedonians = VMRO in power + excessive promotion of ancient Macedonian history is my point. If were just let into international organizations without obstruction then we would probably have moved onto the next chapter quite easily...

[Hevneren]

I'm sorry to see common Greeks suffer in these times. It's not their fault that big money changed hands between politicians, stock brokers, bankers and other hoodlums.

We saw similar things in Iceland. It was greed that motivated the fall of Iceland, and it's greed that is now causing the crisis in Greece.

Greece has given the world so much, and I hope that they will get back on their feet soon. They have before.

Scenes like the one below shouldn't happen this day in age in Europe:
xNQCFzcDV2M
:(

[Queen B]

Did I say I disagreed with their decision in my post? I'm talking about Greek obstruction that created the current situation in Macedonia. Whether Greeks like it or not, they were wrong to obstruct Macedonia from joining international organizations. They are responsible for the political radicalization. Last year, I joked with my cousin's boyfriend telling him that it was ridiculous to build a statue of Filip II in this one place. He got pretty angry but couldn't do anything lest he risk upsetting my cousin. :laugh:

No, its Fyrom with the childish behavior.
It reminds me of kids , really
Kid : ''Mom, can I go to this party tonight and return at 2 at night''?
mom : '' No, you are only 12, and this party is full with grown-ups and alcohol''
And the kid sneaks out, and go, and return home at 4, just for pissing his mother of for objecting.

And Greece did not object, Fyrom is part of the council of Europe,OSCE and Partnership of Peace . But they entered with the name ''Fyrom'' that time, and did not make stupid claims over Alexander and did not renamed everything, to fit their dreams .



It's not like Macedonia posed a military threat to your country nor would historians side with us. We posed absolutely zero threat, and yet, Greek politicans obstructed and radicalized the Macedonians = VMRO in power + excessive promotion of ancient Macedonian history is my point. If were just let into international organizations without obstruction then we would probably have moved onto the next chapter quite easily...
If you could enter international organizations like NATO and EU, what stops you of just renaming ''Fyrom'' to ''Macedonia'' and stop UN talks?

[Trun]

If you could enter international organizations like NATO and EU, what stops you of just renaming ''Fyrom'' to ''Macedonia'' and stop UN talks?

FYROM can become part of NATO and EU, only one simple thing is required, but they just don't get it. :rolleyes:

[poiuytrewq0987]

No, its Fyrom with the childish behavior.
It reminds me of kids , really
Kid : ''Mom, can I go to this party tonight and return at 2 at night''?
mom : '' No, you are only 12, and this party is full with grown-ups and alcohol''
And the kid sneaks out, and go, and return home at 4, just for pissing his mother of for objecting.

And Greece did not object, Fyrom is part of the council of Europe,OSCE and Partnership of Peace . But they entered with the name ''Fyrom'' that time, and did not make stupid claims over Alexander and did not renamed everything, to fit their dreams .


If you could enter international organizations like NATO and EU, what stops you of just renaming ''Fyrom'' to ''Macedonia'' and stop UN talks?

Oh well, I'm not president.

[Catrau]

The beginning of what? Believe it or not, even us Finns are individual human beings, rather than some Borg-like hive mind.

Look, Finn-speech does not invalidate the points the speaker has to say. You may not like the person or what he has to say, but there you have it.

I don't come here to fight other Europeans, for me you are all family and although Greeks are as close to me as Finns I would never had the nerve to come here and point them the direction of the nemesis. These people are suffering too much, they do not need their "neighbors" to tell them that bankruptcy will be their best choice. Things must be really bad because they themselves are starting to say that same thing. Now, I would like you to tell us in what way Greek bankruptcy is their best choice and how that situation will be the best one for the rest of Europeans, especially in the EZ.

I say I have long term memory because we haven't forget the loads of bullshit your politicians said about us standing over their toes and trying to look down, when there was an electoral campaign going on in your country, and we were in the absolute urge for help, thank you very much, we felt really humiliated and your politicians made a sad image of themselves and they fellow countrymen. That is why I repeat and say: please cut that crap! and I don't mean personally at you, I’m sure you are a nice person otherwise you wouldn’t be in the Apricity Forum but you would start giving a sign of goodwill by stop stepping on dying and rather help them to rise even if only by words.

[Black Sun Dimension]

Why was Greece let in the EU in the first place?

[Queen B]

Now, I would like you to tell us in what way Greek bankruptcy is their best choice and how that situation will be the best one for the rest of Europeans, especially in the EZ.

Ιf Greece bankrupts, it will be the best for Greece, the worst for European countries.

- A reason why the German Troika measures didn't succeed in Greek crisis, is because the plan was wrong for the beginning.Or it was planned wrong from the beginning*
In order a country to get out of the crisis, it must show growth.
There is no possibility of economic growth when the unemployment rises, the salaries are reduced and there is no cash circulation. This will only get the country to deeeper and deeper shit.
What practically happens to Greece now is to borrow money to pay of the interest of the loans.
No money for the country to grow, quite the opossite, the money that were used to be used for the country's wellbeing are now over.

- On the other hand, if Greece defaults, then all the money that EU lend to Greece will be over.
They won't have a domination over Greece, and won't sell their old military equipment to those fools (= us).
This will create also a domino in other economies, and the strong euro coin, will loose power against dollar = Germany will loose power against US.

If someone really believes that Germany is helping Greece out of their good heart or because they are brother Europeans, is simply too naive.


* planned = When Germany dictates to cut pensions and salaries but don't want to cut the enormous amounts on military spendings, this is at least suspicious.

[Queen B]

Why was Greece let in the EU in the first place?

Eu or Eurozone?

[Wanderlust]

Why was Greece let in the EU in the first place?



We have discussed about that a million times already, when Greece joined the EU in 1981 nothing was the same.

As for the EZ, certainly not because Greek people wanted so. When Greece was using drachma as its currency there were jobs for everyone including the 1 million of immigrants, we had a satisfying clothing industry especially in Northern Greece and of course a very strong agriculture. Now, with the new EU policies, we have to eliminate our own production, which is superior for obvious reasons ie Med climate, and import vegetables infected with E. Coli from Hamburg. Need I say more?

[Eldritch]

... These people are suffering too much, they do not need their "neighbors" to tell them that bankruptcy will be their best choice. Things must be really bad because they themselves are starting to say that same thing.

Well if the Greeks themselves say it, then there just may be something to it, aye? ;)


Now, I would like you to tell us in what way Greek bankruptcy is their best choice and how that situation will be the best one for the rest of Europeans, especially in the EZ.

The present policy of support packages is clearly not working:

http://i.imgur.com/k4vrA.png

This whole scheme is designed to divert money from European taxpayers to central European banks. It was just today in the news that more and more of Greece's debt is now in public, rather than private, funds. Meaning: €urozone countries are lending Greece money that it cannot pay back, so private banks will at least get theirs before the whole house of cards goes down.

When Greece finally defaults, it's the European taxpayer who'll be left sitting in an empty restaurant holding an exorbitant bill, banksters who've dined on lobsters and champagne having climbed out through the bathroom window. This is what I mean when I say that putting a stop to this Ponzi scheme would be in the interest of all Europeans.

With all due respect, I really do think you should drop your feelings of indignation. Having an overly emotional approach to economic matters simply is not a good idea. If you think I get any pleasure in saying that I think it would be a mistake to lend Greece any more money in this situation, well then you really are wrong, my friend. :wink

[Black Sun Dimension]

Eu or Eurozone?

This.

Greece should get out the EU, it'd be a win-win situation for everybody.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Well if the Greeks themselves say it, then there just may be something to it, aye? ;)



The present policy of support packages is clearly not working:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/29/Greece_public_debt_1999-2010.svg/749px-Greece_public_debt_1999-2010.svg.png

This whole scheme is designed to divert money from European taxpayers to central European banks. It was just today in the news that more and more of Greece's debt is now in public, rather than private, funds. Meaning: €urozone countries are lending Greece money that it cannot pay back, so private banks will at least get theirs before the whole house of cards goes down.

When Greece finally defaults, it's the European taxpayer who'll be left sitting in an empty restaurant holding an exorbitant bill, banksters who've dined on lobsters and champagne having climbed out through the bathroom window. This is what I mean when I say that putting a stop to this onzi scheme would be in the interest of all Europeans.

With all due respect, I really do think you should drop your feelings of indignation. Having an overly emotional approach to economic matters simply is not a good idea. If you think I get any pleasure in saying that I think it would be a mistake to lend Greece any more money in this situation, well then you really are wrong, my friend. :wink

Greek debt is 173% of GDP now? Greece should just default. No way Greece can pay back more than $600b in debt. Actually, if Greek debt keeps increasing at this rate, they could owe $1 trillion i.e. the current total of Italian debt. :eek:

[Catrau]

Ιf Greece bankrupts, it will be the best for Greece, the worst for European countries.


I can't see how it will be good for Greece.
You have loans that you have to pay, when you mean bankruptcy maybe you think that you won't pay them anymore, that may be an option but you'll always need to borrow money to grow (like any other country in the world) and nobody will lend you money if you do not pay your previous loans.

Look, my country entered bankruptcy some 120 years ago, those were other times but the situation that led to that event wasn't that much different from the actual (we should be smart and learn with history). I'm telling you this because my country could only return to the markets more than 60 years later and that explains in part our lag in relation to the other western European countries...

Forget bankruptcy, you have to pay your loans no matter what. In my opinion you need more time and, even more important than that, you need our European friends to reduce the interest rate of the loans by the minimum. That would be great.

[Queen B]

I can't see how it will be good for Greece.
You have loans that you have to pay, when you mean bankruptcy maybe you think that you won't pay them anymore, that may be an option but you'll always need to borrow money to grow (like any other country in the world) and nobody will lend you money if you do not pay your previous loans.

Bankrupcy = default the debt.

We have been through worst economic situation in the past.
Greece was ruined after Ww2, ruined after civil war and still managed to get through.
Noone said that would be easy to 'grow', and it won't happen in the blink of an eye, but it will.
Staying as we are, not only we wont grow, but we are getting worst and worst and worst. At least with that measures that Germany is giving.



Forget bankruptcy, you have to pay your loans no matter what. In my opinion you need more time and, even more important than that, you need our European friends to reduce the interest rate of the loans by the minimum. That would be great.
How?
What we do now is getting loans to pay the previous loans plus their interests.
People lose their jobs, so less tax will be collected, less money will be produced and no money is circulated.


This.

Greece should get out the EU, it'd be a win-win situation for everybody.

So since you also say that was wrong to enter Eurozone ( I agree), with you say that should get out of EU.

Please, do NOT mistake terms.

[Catrau]

http://i.imgur.com/k4vrA.png



I understand your concerns about sending money to a bottomless pit, they are mine too. In particular I have to point at the Greek government, as far as I understand and correct me if I'm wrong, because I do not live in Greece, but it seems that they didn't act enough soon to try to contain their galloping debt... there were things: elections in the horizon, public pressure, the cooking of the books for many years and, maybe, a wrong analysis of the situation, a feel that everything would get into place, that it was a passing by situation.
Once and for all they must do the outmost to pay their bills, I'm sorry to say but they have to get poor for a while and then come back. Hey, I got a 10% cut on my salary last year and this years and the next I will have an almost 25% cut... it's hard. I'm helping my country to pay the debt that I haven't done and I shout up and pray not to lose my job, that's it. No need to set buildings afire. Maybe all our efforts are for nothing, because if things go wrong we will be next but we won't go alone...
If Greece bankrupts, they will be in trouble for many many years. You think what you want, this is my opinion: they bankrupt, their creditors lost their money, it will cause a turmoil and they won't borrow money for years to come, no money--> no growth -->whirlpool.
We all know that we have different approaches to life and to business, maybe I’m too passionate but maybe you’re too cold. A little bit of both is needed either in life and in business. There is no good business without passion and a bit of risk.

[Romanion]

The problem with a default is what Catrau said; it would erase all the debts but would block Greece form the international markets for an unknown period of time. THere is no right solution at this point, but there is a less worse solution. Countries need to borrow to grow economically. Greece in the past 15 years has had a horrible economic policy based on governmetn jobs payed with loans, this was artificial way to grow the economy.