Geographic Status of the South Caucasus [Split from Stormfront]

[Armin]

Ah okay, so they went with the geographic definition. I guess that's the simplest approach. Though do they take account the countries part of Council of Europe though? (Armenia & Georgia) are part of it.

Just one note, Armenia (as well as Georgia) are within continental Europe (Eastern Europe to be exact) geographically, so it is not only a matter of being a member of the Council of Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe

[Mosov]

Just one note, Armenia (as well as Georgia) are within continental Europe (Eastern Europe to be exact) geographically, so it is not only a matter of being a member of the Council of Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe

Transcaucasia is a tricky region in terms of geography. The boundary between Europe and Asia is hotly contested. Trust me I've been in so many debates regarding geography with geographers and other people. I view transcaucasia as a border region between Europe and Asia. The biggest consensus of the border between Europe and Asia is the Caucasus mountain range just north of Georgian. Though that border does include small slivers of Georgia and Azerbaijan as they are further north than Armenia. Though Armenia falls below that border, it is still included. Similar to Cyprus's case. The region as a whole is basically put into the European sphere political even if the geography is a bit more tricky.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Historical_Europe-Asia_boundaries_1700_to_1900.png

That being said, Transcaucasia is politically part of Europe:

http://book.coe.int/ftp/image/111526.png

[Armin]

Transcaucasia is a tricky region in terms of geography. The boundary between Europe and Asia is hotly contested. Trust me I've been in so many debates regarding geography with geographers and other people. I view transcaucasia as a border region between Europe and Asia. The biggest consensus of the border between Europe and Asia is the Caucasus mountain range just north of Georgian. Though that border does include small slivers of Georgia and Azerbaijan as they are further north than Armenia. Though Armenia falls below that border, it is still included. Similar to Cyprus's case. The region as a whole is basically put into the European sphere political even if the geography is a bit more tricky.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Historical_Europe-Asia_boundaries_1700_to_1900.png

That being said, Transcaucasia is politically part of Europe:

http://book.coe.int/ftp/image/111526.png

True, but we must go by what Europeans themselves officially consider Europe (geographically, culturally as well as politically) and that certainly includes Armenia fully within Eastern Europe. Armenia is also geographically within Europe as defined by the UN's Group of Experts on Geographical Names (UNGEGN) which sets the continental demarcation boundaries for the world body.

[Mosov]

True, but we must go by what Europeans themselves officially consider Europe (geographically, culturally as well as politically) and that certainly includes Armenia fully within Eastern Europe. Armenia is also geographically within Europe as defined by the UN's Group of Experts on Geographical Names (UNGEGN) which sets the continental demarcation boundaries for the world body.

I agree with you mate. EU knows better than anyone what countries fall into the European family. Armenia being part of Council of Europe is a big sign of that. You have countries like Israel,Kazakhstan part of Eurovision, UEFA, but they are not part of Council of Europe. In addition, Armenia's ruling political party is part of the European People's Party.

Very Important Source:

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg846/scaled.php?server=846&filename=armenieu.png&res=medium

http://www.libertas-institut.com/de/pdf/armenia%20ante%20portas.pdf

Basically both Armenia and Georgia are officially considered EU member candidates.

[Humanophage]

True, but we must go by what Europeans themselves officially consider Europe (geographically, culturally as well as politically) and that certainly includes Armenia fully within Eastern Europe. Armenia is also geographically within Europe as defined by the UN's Group of Experts on Geographical Names (UNGEGN) which sets the continental demarcation boundaries for the world body.
I've already seen UNGEGN mentioned by an Armenian poster here, in the same context. I wonder where did they find there that Armenia is included into Europe? The only division that includes Armenia is "Eastern Europe, Northern and Central Asia Division", which also includes Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, etc.: http://unstats.un.org/unsd/geoinfo/UNGEGN/divisions.html

Here is the UN definition, posted on the website of an UNGEGN division ("East Central and South-East Europe"): http://ungegn.dgu.hr/divisionbackgrounds.html
http://ungegn.dgu.hr/images/ungegn1.jpg

The aforementioned division deals with Turkey and Georgia, but not Armenia. It seems quite clear to me that the justification for such divisions is largely political, and they lack any authority on the matter in hand.

Can't we just send all this political stuff with the constantly changing borders away, and look at genetics instead?

[Mosov]

Genetics reflects geography first of all.

European Union has designated Armenia as meeting the criteria for EU membership application (including geographical criteria). If we argue about just plain geography, it does get tricky. Transcaucasia is a border region, but while we can argue all day about geography and where exactly the border is between Europe and Asia (various opinion on that), the fact the EU designates Armenia as European Country, and Armenia of course accepts that designation, our discussion is just cosmetic.

[Stegura]

Genetics reflects geography first of all.

European Union has designated Armenia as meeting the criteria for EU membership application (including geographical criteria). If we argue about just plain geography, it does get tricky. Transcaucasia is a border region, but while we can argue all day about geography and where exactly the border is between Europe and Asia (various opinion on that), the fact the EU designates Armenia as European Country, and Armenia of course accepts that designation, our discussion is just cosmetic.

The EU also designates Azerbajain as a European country.

Do Armenians view Azeri's as fellow Europeans?

[Padre Organtino]

The EU also designates Azerbajain as a European country.

Do Armenians view Azeri's as fellow Europeans?

Azeris are more Middle Eastern influenced

[Stegura]

Azeris are more Middle Eastern influenced

Something that Armos and Georgos can agree upon?

[Padre Organtino]

Something that Armos and Georgos can agree upon?

Well, it's hard to argue about that - been there myself. I'll make a list to illustrate my point:

1.Elite looking whiter than common folk and having negative oinion on them.
2.Quasi-monarchy disguised as presidency (current pres the son of former one)
3.Worship of power and social status
4.Dubai-like active construction of skyscrapers using money recieved from selling oil
5.A small number of Islamists that occasionally burn flags of infidels
6.Clannish, tribal mentality (that also applies to the rest of Caucasus though)

When visiting Baku I felt like Georgia was almost Europe - the contrast was really strong and unexpected.

[Humanophage]

Firstly, the EU is not an authority on European matters, it is just a political organisation. It would include Algeria and Turkey if they met the democratic criteria, and would kick out Austria if it became fascist. It basically attempts to usurp the concept of Europe to promote progress in neighbouring countries by luring them with this title.

Secondly, the EU defines Armenia as belonging to the same region as Azerbaijan and Georgia, South Caucasus. For instance, European Neighbourhood Policy and its Eastern Partnership specifically state that they include "Eastern Europe and the Southern Caucasus": http://www.eeas.europa.eu/eastern/index_en.htm - and that's how ENP looks:
http://www.ejc.net/uploads/media_landscapes/enpmap.jpg

Thirdly, I'd imagine genetics reflects history and population movements more than geography. It reflects what the people are like physically and to whom they are related. For example, Chechens and Russians currently live close to each other, but are genetically very different. Not to mention that, geographically, Armenia is closer to Iran and Turkey than to any European state - in fact, it is closer to Iraq, if one doesn't count Russia's south (from which it is separated by mountains anyway).

[Armin]

I've already seen UNGEGN mentioned by an Armenian poster here, in the same context. I wonder where did they find there that Armenia is included into Europe? The only division that includes Armenia is "Eastern Europe, Northern and Central Asia Division", which also includes Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, etc.: http://unstats.un.org/unsd/geoinfo/UNGEGN/divisions.html

Obviously there is an overlap (the colored division notwithstanding). Otherwise you would not have Georgia listed as "1. East Central and South-East Europe Division" and at the same time also colored in yellow.


Here is the UN definition, posted on the website of an UNGEGN division ("East Central and South-East Europe"): http://ungegn.dgu.hr/divisionbackgrounds.html
http://ungegn.dgu.hr/images/ungegn1.jpg

The aforementioned division deals with Turkey and Georgia, but not Armenia. It seems quite clear to me that the justification for such divisions is largely political, and they lack any authority on the matter in hand.

As I pointed above, this is not correct, because there is an "overlap" as clearly indicated by the description categories (listing both) for Georgia. Besides, the European Union's official definition is what is truly important and matters and that clearly places Armenia (and Georgia for that matter) within Eastern Europe.


Central and Eastern Europe: Albania, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Georgia, Macedonia, Moldova, Montenegro, Poland, Romania, Russia, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Ukraine.


Can't we just send all this political stuff with the constantly changing borders away, and look at genetics instead?

This is not just "political stuff," but more importantly geography and culture. Who else better knows where Europe begins and ends geographically than Europeans themselves, and they are very clear about that. As far as the genes go, as I pointed out earlier the Dodecad Project no longer uses the "West Asian" description and has the Caucasia and Gedrosia division. Besides, as a good deal of geneticists have pointed the so-called "West Asian" is in all probability associated with the Neolithic Indo-European outmigrations hence its significant presence in quite many peoples of Europe.

[Armin]

The EU also designates Azerbajain as a European country.

Do Armenians view Azeri's as fellow Europeans?

Armenians view "Azerbaijan" as (occupied) Armenian and Caucasian (Albanian) land. I hope to see the day this great injustice reversed and the land returned to her native people.

[Stegura]

Armenians view "Azerbaijan" as (occupied) Armenian and Caucasian (Albanian) land. I hope to see the day this great injustice reversed and the land returned to her native people.

Then where should the Azerbaboons be deported too? :)

[Armin]

Firstly, the EU is not an authority on European matters, it is just a political organisation. It would include Algeria and Turkey if they met the democratic criteria, and would kick out Austria if it became fascist. It basically attempts to usurp the concept of Europe to promote progress in neighbouring countries by luring them with this title.

Secondly, the EU defines Armenia as belonging to the same region as Azerbaijan and Georgia, South Caucasus. For instance, European Neighbourhood Policy and its Eastern Partnership specifically state that they include "Eastern Europe and the Southern Caucasus": http://www.eeas.europa.eu/eastern/index_en.htm - and that's how ENP looks:
http://www.ejc.net/uploads/media_landscapes/enpmap.jpg

Thirdly, I'd imagine genetics reflects history and population movements more than geography. It reflects what the people are like physically and to whom they are related. For example, Chechens and Russians currently live close to each other, but are genetically very different. Not to mention that, geographically, Armenia is closer to Iran and Turkey than to any European state - in fact, it is closer to Iraq, if one doesn't count Russia's south (from which it is separated by mountains anyway).

Perhaps, the EU's stance is secondary or even irrelevant to you, but it is not so for me since EU unites around her flag most of the nations of Europe. European integration is a core policy that is pursued by Armenia and it is grounded in the common European culture and heritage. Whether one likes it or not, today the EU is Pan-European entity that holds a great deal of potential and is vital for the survival and growth of Europe and European Civilization and all of us must do more that European interests are always defended within the European Parliament or the Council of Europe.

[Armin]

Then where should the Azerbaboons be deported too? :)

They glorify and yearn for their Altaic homeland in Central Asia, so that is a natural place of return.

[Thunor]

30-50 Armenians became Sustaining Members on Stormfront almost overnight, meaning that they donated atleast $50 or more per person. So in sense they tried to buy their own SF Armenia sub-forum there as a platform for pushing their "white-washing" agenda.
LOL, can you possibly get more pathetic? :laugh2:

Whiteness can't be bought with money. You're either born with it in your genes, or you're not.


Whether one likes it or not, today the EU is Pan-European entity that holds a great deal of potential and is vital for the survival and growth of Europe and European Civilization and all of us must do more that European interests are always defended within the European Parliament or the Council of Europe.
The EU is an anti-European system, that forces the same unnatural system upon all European countries that join it. Not only does it force countries like Germany to feed the rest of Europe, but it also makes each member country take immigrant quotas and such. The sooner the EU disappears, the better. Almost everything I've heard about the EU is negative.

[Humanophage]

Obviously there is an overlap (the colored division notwithstanding). Otherwise you would not have Georgia listed as "1. East Central and South-East Europe Division" and at the same time also colored in yellow.
I was pointing out that UNGEGN division names are unrelated to whether a country is European. They don't really mean anything except that these countries have something to discuss. For instance, Cyprus is included into the Southwest Asian division, too. "Countries decide for themselves the division(s) to which they wish to belong; some belong to more than one division."


As I pointed above, this is not correct, because there is an "overlap" as clearly indicated by the description categories (listing both) for Georgia. Besides, the European Union's official definition is what is truly important and matters and that clearly places Armenia (and Georgia for that matter) within Eastern Europe.
Frankly, I'd say UN definition is a lot more important than EU's, simply because the UN cares more about culture and doesn't have such a clear agenda. EU statements deal with corruption, political freedoms, etc. Not to mention, as I said, Armenia to the EU is "South Caucasus", and always goes in hand with Azerbaijan. Here is the page the Wiki version of which you quoted: http://eurovoc.europa.eu/drupal/?q=request&mturi=http%3A%2F%2Feurovoc.europa.eu%2F100277&language=en&view=mt&ifacelang=en - a special "South Caucasus" category is present there, which unites Armenia, Georgia, and Azerbaijan.


This is not just "political stuff," but more importantly geography and culture. Who else better knows where Europe begins and ends geographically than Europeans themselves, and they are very clear about that. As far as the genes go, as I pointed out earlier the Dodecad Project no longer uses the "West Asian" description and has the Caucasia and Gedrosia division. Besides, as a good deal of geneticists have pointed the so-called "West Asian" is in all probability associated with the Neolithic Indo-European outmigrations hence its significant presence in quite many peoples of Europe.
The EU is pure "political stuff" that constantly tries to expropriate the term Europe. Like this: http://ec.europa.eu/publications/booklets/others/58/countries2007/en.pdf - apparently "Europe" is just the EU. Belarus and Norway are kind of like Algeria, but to the East and North.

As for the Caucasus component in Dodecad, I suppose you are referring to K12 run. Various runs introduce different labels, which is their point. It is using "West Asia" (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadHZ6SHpiLTNTa3lsUmZJY2pQblVRR 2c#gid=0) in K7b, for instance, which is as recent as K12. Some runs just use "Northern", "Southern", "East Asian" and "African", or other labels. Harappa's many runs are a good illustration: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuW3R0Ys-P4HdGI3V2Z0SEs5WmRPcVoybDJXNzRIWXc&hl=en#gid=10

However, it analyses the same populations - when I say that Armenians are West Asian, I refer to a group of genetically similar populations, not the label one chooses for a specific component. For example, it is common for West Asians like Armenians, Iranians, Kurds, Chechens to have certain predominant elements. If a component is labelled "Caucasus" and Armenians have it, then so will Kurds, Iranians, Turks, etc. Here, some selected populations from K12 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE&hl=en_US#gid=0):
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/Humanophage/GeneticArmenians.gif

[Armin]

The EU is an anti-European system, that forces the same unnatural system upon all European countries that join it. Not only does it force countries like Germany to feed the rest of Europe, but it also makes each member country take immigrant quotas and such. The sooner the EU disappears, the better. Almost everything I've heard about the EU is negative.

Germany plays a key role in the EU. If anything, it is American pressure towards the EU in general and Germany in particular that causes some of the problems that you described above. The argument that the US is often using is that it is defending Europe that is still unable to defend her own borders from foreign threats. Thus the occupation of Germany (with some 70,000 US soldiers) continues. Europe has to be united in order to defend her own borders through her own military forces. This can only happen if nations of Europe cooperate (politically, economically and militarily) with each other and are thus united. The sovereignty of each European nation is important, but no single European nation can alone withstand the challenges of much stronger entities that are a threat to European security, hence once again cooperation (including economic because the threat is not only military but is first of all economic) is vital. EU is not a be all and has its drawbacks (I agree that Germany should not bail out anyone and each European nation so do its bit), but even a good deal of nationalist parties of various European countries (including Germany) also know that if they are to make a difference they have to work within existing structures and make sure that the EU serves their interests, both national, as well as European.

[Armin]

I was pointing out that UNGEGN division names are unrelated to whether a country is European. They don't really mean anything except that these countries have something to discuss. For instance, Cyprus is included into the Southwest Asian division, too. "Countries decide for themselves the division(s) to which they wish to belong; some belong to more than one division."

Well, as I noted, Georgia was placed within Southeast Europe according to the same division. I do not know whether Georgia affirmed this or did not. One thing is certain that Georgia (like Armenia) is fully integrating into the European family of nations.



Frankly, I'd say UN definition is a lot more important than EU's, simply because the UN cares more about culture and doesn't have such a clear agenda. EU statements deal with corruption, political freedoms, etc. Not to mention, as I said, Armenia to the EU is "South Caucasus", and always goes in hand with Azerbaijan. Here is the page the Wiki version of which you quoted: http://eurovoc.europa.eu/drupal/?q=request&mturi=http%3A%2F%2Feurovoc.europa.eu%2F100277&language=en&view=mt&ifacelang=en - a special "South Caucasus" category is present there, which unites Armenia, Georgia, and Azerbaijan.

A key point to remember is that the European Union, which represents most of the European nations, geographically designates Armenia within Eastern Europe, so in this regard for me Europe is most important because it is up to Europeans to decide where Europe begins and ends, and as I have pointed out they are quite clear about that.


The EU is pure "political stuff" that constantly tries to expropriate the term Europe. Like this: http://ec.europa.eu/publications/booklets/others/58/countries2007/en.pdf - apparently "Europe" is just the EU.

Perhaps, but keep in mind that the above designation is a geographical one and not a political one. I know you noted countries like Algeria or others as possibly becoming part of EU. I assure you that will never happen because countries like Algeria simply lack any connection, history and culture to that of Europe.


As for the Caucasus component in Dodecad, I suppose you are referring to K12 run. Various runs introduce different labels, which is their point. It is using "West Asia" (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadHZ6SHpiLTNTa3lsUmZJY2pQblVRR 2c#gid=0) in K7b, for instance, which is as recent as K12. Some runs just use "Northern", "Southern", "East Asian" and "African", or other labels. Harappa's many runs are a good illustration: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuW3R0Ys-P4HdGI3V2Z0SEs5WmRPcVoybDJXNzRIWXc&hl=en#gid=10

However, it analyses the same populations - when I say that Armenians are West Asian, I refer to a group of genetically similar populations, not the label one chooses for a specific component. For example, it is common for West Asians like Armenians, Iranians, Kurds, Chechens to have certain predominant elements. If a component is labelled "Caucasus" and Armenians have it, then so will Kurds, Iranians, Turks, etc. Here, some selected populations from K12 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE&hl=en_US#gid=0):
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/Humanophage/GeneticArmenians.gif

Such similar patterns can be observed with Armenians and other European populations of Balkans, Greece and even Italy (like the Tuscans for example). So, as I noted the so-called "West Asian" component, which Dodecad has already pointed out is quite broad of a category and has narrowed it down to Caucasia component (which is also quite prevalent in good deal of European populations). As far as the Turks of course we know that some share certain similarity (through assimilation of peoples like the Armenians, Greeks and other Balkan peoples), but than again they also have their own prevalent non-Caucasian elements which are reflective of their Central Asian origin.

[Mosov]

The EU also designates Azerbajain as a European country.

Do Armenians view Azeri's as fellow Europeans?

We really could care less about Azeris.


Firstly, the EU is not an authority on European matters, it is just a political organisation. It would include Algeria and Turkey if they met the democratic criteria, and would kick out Austria if it became fascist. It basically attempts to usurp the concept of Europe to promote progress in neighbouring countries by luring them with this title.

You really don't understand it. Let me say it again. Armenia has been confirmed by the European Union to meet the criteria for EU membership. That means they have sat down and discussed and decided that Armenia is within the European sphere and is a European country. While countries such as Morroco and Algeria will have partnership agreements, mostly connected to economy, they are not part of Council of Europe, and they will never be. They do not meet EU criteria for membership either. I suggest you read this again:

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg846/scaled.php?server=846&filename=armenieu.png&res=medium

[Mosov]

Armenia is a gate between West and East. European family shares the same roots, heritage, and destiny with Armenia, European People’s Party (EPP) President Wilfried Martens said in Marseille, France on Wednesday.


Today, if you ask the Mekhitarist fathers whether they are Venetian, they will say yes. If you ask them whether they are Armenian, they will say yes. One can say that they were pioneers in establishing a common European identity, about which we speak proudly, yet with some apprehension. If it used to be religion that bound Europe together a millennium ago, it certainly isn't any longer. Nor is it the economic advancement that was specific to Europe two centuries ago. It isn't ideology either, which was both adhesive and encumbrance for decades in the last century. Europe is more than its common history, more than geography, more than a club for members. All those who've said Europe is an idea are right. It is the idea of a Europe that is the common, if unattainable ideal. Even those living outside this space have imagined and desired a Europe which can be addressed collectively, a partner which can be enlisted conveniently, a Europe to which they yearn to belong. Armenia is Europe. This is a fact, it's not a response to a question. The collapse of the USSR brought us to a point of economic and political crisis. I remember our discussions in Armenia, before our entry into the Council of Europe. There were many questions about the choice of path to take. Dante once said that the hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality. I'm happy to say I won't be going there because I was among the loudest advocates of the European path. The choice was clear. Armenians believe in the values of the European enlightenment, of European civilization. The moral, ethical and existential choices that bring individuals and societies to select democracy over other forms of government, rule of law over rule of man, human rights over selective rights those choices have been made. A people who have lived under subjugation, have seen ethnic cleansing and genocide even before the terms existed, have lived as a minority without rights, now belong to a world where warring neighbors have found that they can accept new borders based on realities on the ground and move on. Europe's nation-states have found that they can transcend borders, without diminishing or ignoring cultural spaces, without expecting historical identities to vanish. The European Neighborhood Policy brings Armenia back home since Armenia's foreign policy priority is the gradual integration of Armenia into European institutions. The double digit GDP growth, which Armenia achieved each of the last five years, the successful admission into the WTO, the spirit of the free enterprise, the changing political system and society are promising signs that we are on the right track. However, it is too early to say that the European standard is round the corner. It is not as close yet as Europe itself, as Venice, as Verona, as the shared cultural and religious values of the past and present. To highlight and share those values, we will be launching a two-month long Days of Italy in Armenia, beginning in early October. This project has received the blessing and patronage of President Ciampi, President Kocharian and Governor Galan. The centerpiece of these important events will be an exhibition of the riches from the Isla Armena. In light of all this, then, the Fondazione Masi has, in bestowing upon me this award, put a great stamp of approval on Armenia, its foreign policy directions, its European orientation, its future. I am privileged to receive this prestigious award, il Grosso d'Oro Veneziano. This is a special day for me. And this is, of course, a special place, a special foundation and a special family with a glorious history of 650 years stretching all the way back to one of the greatest poets of all times, Dante Alighieri. Dante's descendants valued their heritage and helped pass on his legacy. This legacy clearly manifests itself in modern Italy and the Region of Veneto. Italy and Veneto also share a legacy with Armenians. There is much symbolism in the fact that Armenia's coming back to Europe is being noted and celebrated here, in Italy," the Minister said.

[Mosov]

Therefore, it's fully legitimate to label Armenia as an European country. Geographically we are on the periphery - in this "transitional zone"/border region of transcaucasia. Culturally, I believe in the uniqueness of Armenian culture and don't subscribe to a notion of pan-European culture. In terms of modern day values of Armenian society, while we do retain our cherished Armenian/Christian values, we also have imported certain European values in this integration with Europe. Historically, we have ties with both the nations around us, but also have had meaningful ties with European Kingdoms/Powers (e.g during time of Cilicia).

How controversial the exact border between Europe and Asia is:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/TransAsia_m2.png

Looking at all these various borders set by various groups of geographers, we see that the South Caucasus (Transcaucasia) is truly a transitional region.

[Thunor]

We really could care less about Azeris.
Well, by your definition of "European", they're also in.


You really don't understand it. Let me say it again. Armenia has been confirmed by the European Union to meet the criteria for EU membership. That means they have sat down and discussed and decided that Armenia is within the European sphere and is a European country.
The EU is a political organization, not a cultural or ethnic one. Its opinions don't really matter here. Turkey is also on the European Council and might possibly join the EU, does that make them European?

[Mosov]

Well, by your definition of "European", they're also in.


The EU is a political organization, not a cultural or ethnic one. Its opinions don't really matter here. Turkey is also on the European Council and might possibly join the EU, does that make them European?

It makes Turkey a European Country, as they are part of Council of Europe. But, the question is, if they didn't have that sliver of land in continental Europe, would they still be admitted as part of Council of Europe? The Turkish admission to European Structure was trivial because of tangible land in Continental Europe. The Transcaucasus is more tricky in terms of geography.

Like I said in my previous post:


It's fully legitimate to label Armenia as an European country. Geographically we are on the periphery - in this "transitional zone"/border region of transcaucasia. Culturally, I believe in the uniqueness of Armenian culture and don't subscribe to a notion of pan-European culture. In terms of modern day values of Armenian society, while we do retain our cherished Armenian/Christian values, we also have imported certain European values in this integration with Europe. Historically, we have ties with both the nations around us, but also have had meaningful ties with European Kingdoms/Powers (e.g during time of Cilicia).

[Padre Organtino]

Georgians and Armenians are not European nor in racial neother in cultural sense. They are however occidental nations.

[Mosov]

Georgians and Armenians are not European nor in racial neother in cultural sense. They are however occidental nations.

Well you have to make definition of what it means to be European. Is it geographical? Is it racial (unscientific)? Is it political? Is it cultural?

'European' label is used in various different ways both politically and geographically. The racial argument is weak and unscientific. One cannot have "European genes"... that's hilariously naive.

[eviline]

armenia is not south caucasus

[Mosov]

armenia is not south caucasus

stop trolling.

edit:
reported it for trolling.

[Padre Organtino]

Well you have to make definition of what it means to be European. Is it geographical? Is it racial (unscientific)? Is it political? Is it cultural?

'European' label is used in various different ways both politically and geographically. The racial argument is weak and unscientific. One cannot have "European genes"... that's hilariously naive.

European people are relatively close to each other both genetically and culturally. Armenians and Georgians are relatively distant from them on both dimensions.

[StonyArabia]

Azerbaijan is not Middle Eastern it seen as part of the Iranian civilizations. It has zlich to do with Semitic nations. They also tend to have Iranic attitudes similar to Kurds not to SouthWest Asian Semites or Levantins, they are barbaric from the SouthWest Asian point view.

The Caucasus as whole is West Asia to be honest from the geograpical point of view, other than that their are some Caucasian groups that do share European elements and are seen as such. The reason that the Caucasus or at least Northern Caucasus is sometimes put as European is due to the Russian federation nothing more and nothing less.

[Mosov]

European people are relatively close to each other both genetically and culturally. Armenians and Georgians are relatively distant from them on both dimensions.

Again, genetics reflects geography. So obviously French, Germans, and Dutch for example will reflect much more closely to each other than to Caucasus people. If you look at genetic clustering, it basically spells out a geographical map. Hence, the notion that one can be "genetically European" is truly unscientific and laughable in science circles. It's much better and accurate to determine based on geography.

Just to say my view. Some people here think that the European label is black and white. Very few things in our world is black and white - if you've ever been in a scientific field, you will know this firsthand - everything is filled with shades of grey and ambiguity. This is a elementary concept one must grasp before answering such question.

I will break down into these components.

Geography: Armenia is located in the transcaucasus, in the eastern portion of the Armenian highland. The transcaucasus is a border region between Europe and Asia. There's a lot of controversy on the actual specific border, and we can argue all the day on the exact border - but that's not really efficient. In the end of the day this can best be described as the crossroads between Europe and Asia.

Culture: I view firstly Armenian culture as unique. I have not desire to label Armenian culture. Of course, Armenian culture in addition to the core root that is mixed with our Christian heritage, we took influences from empires that we lived under, empires we lived near, and also at times from European powers. So there's a mixed amount of influences, but I stick to just the Armenian label when it comes to culture.

Genetics: genetics reflects geography, our genetics shows we are people living the region where we are, little point here.

Society: Armenian society is a mix between Soviet values and our Armenian/Christian values. Of course during independence our society has been keen to import European values. In all, our society gives a more liberal/European feel nowadays as we have a lot of our modern culture connected to Europe.

Political: We are politically European. No question about that. Our government is integrating with European institutions and structures. Our political ties with Europe are strong, though our strategic ties lie with Russia.

So as you see it's not black and white. There's a lot of grey area. People really must look at all aspects. Honestly, I don't see how all these different components can be put under one label. Doing so will be inaccurate and ignore the grey area nature of it.

[eviline]

Georgians and Armenians are not European nor in racial neother in cultural sense. They are however occidental nations.
why you say always georgian and armenia? we are different and say together this ethnicities is stupidity armenia is even not south caucasus georgians are related north cauacsian armenians anatolians

i am not trolling i say truth look at map its not south caucasus

[Mosov]

i am not trolling i say truth look at map its not south caucasus

Honestly, you are the one that needs to look at a map. You have no clue what South Caucasus is, you have little knowledge of the geography of your own region. Please stop eating my nerves.

[Padre Organtino]

why you say always georgian and armenia? we are different and say together this ethnicities is stupidity armenia is even not south caucasus georgians are related north cauacsian armenians anatolians

i am not trolling i say truth look at map its not south caucasus

All the groups from Anatolia to South Caucasus are related. Caucasians are just a sub-cluster of West Asians.
Culturally Armenians are closer to Georgians than say Avars (and by culture I mean many things and not just folk dances). They are however not Caucasians themselves.

[eviline]

All the groups from Anatolia to South Caucasus are related. Caucasians are just a sub-cluster of West Asians.
Culturally Armenians are closer to Georgians than say Avars (and by culture I mean many things and not just folk dances). They are however not Caucasians themselves.

i dont think that armenia is culturally close to georgia only close are north caucasians

All the groups from Anatolia to South Caucasus are related.
stop your ignorance please anatolia is anatolia caucasus is caucasus

[Loddfafner]

armenia is not south caucasus

This thread is a split from a discussion on Stormfront on whether Armenia, Georgia, and/or Azerbaijan qualify as European. If there is a more neutral title for this thread I will consider it.

[Loddfafner]

stop trolling.

edit:
reported it for trolling.

That post is too trivial to merit reporting.

[Eva]

That post is too trivial to merit reporting.

That post repeats itself countless times since the user started posting here and what is annoying without any explanation or facts lol

[Humanophage]

Well, as I noted, Georgia was placed within Southeast Europe according to the same division. I do not know whether Georgia affirmed this or did not. One thing is certain that Georgia (like Armenia) is fully integrating into the European family of nations.
The thing is, those divisions do not reflect whether a country is European or not. They are discussion groups. If Greece believed itself to be Southwest Asia, they could ask to be included into the group.


A key point to remember is that the European Union, which represents most of the European nations, geographically designates Armenia within Eastern Europe, so in this regard for me Europe is most important because it is up to Europeans to decide where Europe begins and ends, and as I have pointed out they are quite clear about that.
The EU is not "Europeans", nor are they neutral experts on geography. It mostly consists of unelected officials with very particular views (e.g., pro-multiculturalism, pro-EU, EU expansion, etc.)


Perhaps, but keep in mind that the above designation is a geographical one and not a political one. I know you noted countries like Algiers or others as possibly becoming part of EU. I assure you that will never happen because countries like Algiers simply lack any connection, history and culture to that of Europe.
It is a political designation, especially considering the EU's use of "Europe". The inclusion of Turkey and the Caucasus into Europe is a controversial political topic, and the EU will eagerly tamper with geographic conventions to further its interests.


Such similar patterns can be observed with Armenians and other European populations of Balkans, Greece and even Italy (like the Tuscans for example). So, as I noted the so-called "West Asian" component, which Dodecad has already pointed out is quite broad of a category and has narrowed it down to Caucasia component (which is also quite prevalent in good deal of European populations). As far as the Turks of course we know that some share certain similarity (through assimilation of peoples like the Armenians, Greeks and other Balkan peoples), but than again they also have their own prevalent non-Caucasian elements which are reflective of their Central Asian origin.
No, such patterns cannot be observed with Armenians and Europeans. I posted Bulgarians, Romanians, North Italians, and Greeks in the table. Perhaps I have to visualise it differently. The Turks, on a side note, don't have "prevalent" non-Caucasian elements, they are very small indeed. Unless you use the term to show that it is present in all Turks, regardless of the size.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/Humanophage/AdmixtureArmeColour.gif
Red = common European components, blue = common West Asian components. Sorted by light red + dark red. The composition of Armenians has very little red, the same as Druze, Syrians, Kurds. Not at all like even the most West Asian ethnicities in Europe like Greeks or Sicilians, and even further away from Tuscans, Bulgarians, Romanians.

Rather conveniently, there is a new Dodecad PCA precisely on the region:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-UCP5T1pduGU/TzpBa9QbK3I/AAAAAAAAEe4/_uWuqnnb1zQ/s1600/1_2.png


You really don't understand it. Let me say it again. Armenia has been confirmed by the European Union to meet the criteria for EU membership. That means they have sat down and discussed and decided that Armenia is within the European sphere and is a European country. While countries such as Morroco and Algeria will have partnership agreements, mostly connected to economy, they are not part of Council of Europe, and they will never be. They do not meet EU criteria for membership either. I suggest you read this again:
Actually, you are citing some random paper that advises Armenia on which strategies they should choose to be favoured by the EU: http://www.libertas-institut.com/de/pdf/armenia%20ante%20portas.pdf - it is the personal opinion of a certain Hans-Jürgen Zahorka, and he does not hesitate to stress this subjective aspect. Will you please give links to your sources when you cite them? Moreover, his opinion on what constitutes Europe is entirely political: "membership in European bodies", "Western European civilization elements prevail" (what if Eastern or Northern or Southern European elements prevail?), "large consensus with European values" (again, irrelevant to whether a country is European - its values will be European by definition).

He felt some sort of an odd urge to translate the term Asia Minor, called "core-Europe" (whatever it is) quasi-racist, and said that "most geographers consider Georgia a European state", without any substantiation for this claim. On your map, only one definition of the border (I) includes a tiny portion of Armenia into Europe, the rest place it clearly into Asia.

[PBachman]

This is an idiotic debate.

I don't understand why moderators have not closed the thread. Nobody can honestly produce a concise definition of "European". There are certain bounds and Armenians, Georgians, and some folks of the Caucasus clearly fall into those bounds some don't. Some Armenians and Georgians or others may not even choose to identify as European (like Padre and Eviline).

It is rather idiotic to debate this issue as it is a futile attempt to claim Europeans and some folks of the Caucasus are these mutually exclusive entities when they clearly are not and the same came be said about Southern Europeans versus Northern Europeans versus Western Europeans. Clearly, these geography pseudo-divisions have overlap and unique elements, but in no way are they so different that you could label them "extreme". The same with Armenia and Georgia.

And the case of Turkey as being used an argument against inclusion of Armenians, Georgians, or others is ridiculous because Turkish culture is as much influenced by Greeks or Balken populations than Armenians; therefore, if anything, if you are claiming that "Turks or Azeri populations can be considered European because Armenians or Georgians are" then you should also exclude Greeks, Albanians, and the rest of the Balkens based on this argument to exclude Armenians and Georgians because they share more overlap with Turks.

[PBachman]

Also, it is suspicious that this thread is even in this section when it pertains to the entire forum. It seems like it is a almost a "indian giver" scenario. No Armenian asked for a sub-forum. Please, if you are going to continually behave like Armenians are an ambiguous case then I believe the sub-forum should not have been created, as now it is almost making it seem like Armenians are trying to "desperately" be "European" when it is not the case.

Either you create a sub-forum and have a zero-tolerance policy on questioning why the sub-forum was created or you don't create one in the first place. It is kind of insulting how the moderators created the sub-forum and within the forum now are arguing the "Europeaness of Armenians". To me it is insulting and humiliating. No member asked for this kind of treatment. Please, if you are unsure about the "Europeaness of Armenians", please shut down the sub-forum. or else don't pin members against each other to debate something that should have been settled way before a sub-forum was opened up.

[eviline]

armenia never was in south cauacsus they are wannabe european and enemy of georgian people you were always enemy georgian people you called our people megrels non georgians http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41555&page=2
armenia is not caucasus they are enemy caucasian people and padre is not georgian too georgian who considers armenian close to georgians is not georgian http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLqISibtHLg&feature=channel_video_title

[Loddfafner]

You are crossing the line. Armenians are welcome here. Constant attacks are not.


armenia never was in south cauacsus they are wannabe european and enemy of georgian people you were always enemy georgian people you called our people megrels non georgians http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41555&page=2
armenia is not caucasus they are enemy caucasian people and padre is not georgian too georgian who considers armenian close to georgians is not georgian http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLqISibtHLg&feature=channel_video_title

[eviline]

You are crossing the line. Armenians are welcome here. Constant attacks are not.

i am not attacking i say truth armenians are not south caucasians and are historycal enemy for georgia

[Loki]

i am not attacking i say truth armenians are not south caucasians and are historycal enemy for georgia

Almost all your posts are attacking Armenians, and insulting them. You are not even subtly trying to troll them. You just spew hate. It is unacceptable.

[Padre Organtino]

i am not attacking i say truth armenians are not south caucasians and are historycal enemy for georgia

That's crap (I mean the part about historical enimosity).

[Loki]

Also, it is suspicious that this thread is even in this section when it pertains to the entire forum. It seems like it is a almost a "indian giver" scenario. No Armenian asked for a sub-forum. Please, if you are going to continually behave like Armenians are an ambiguous case then I believe the sub-forum should not have been created, as now it is almost making it seem like Armenians are trying to "desperately" be "European" when it is not the case.

Either you create a sub-forum and have a zero-tolerance policy on questioning why the sub-forum was created or you don't create one in the first place. It is kind of insulting how the moderators created the sub-forum and within the forum now are arguing the "Europeaness of Armenians". To me it is insulting and humiliating. No member asked for this kind of treatment. Please, if you are unsure about the "Europeaness of Armenians", please shut down the sub-forum. or else don't pin members against each other to debate something that should have been settled way before a sub-forum was opened up.

It is not for you to dictate our policies. This subforum will remain, whether you like it or not. If you don't like it you don't have to visit this site.

[Loki]

This thread should not be in the Armenia section anyway, since it is regarding the South Caucasus and not Armenia in particular.

Moved to Ethno-Cultural Discussion.

[eviline]

i am attaacking? :OOOOOOOOOO i am only answaer their attack
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41555&page=2
they are calling megrels non georgians they can do this and i cant answer?

[Padre Organtino]

i am attaacking? :OOOOOOOOOO i am only answaer their attack
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41555&page=2
they are calling megrels non georgians they can do this and i cant answer?

Why are you generalising? This is one particular guy that has a certain opinion on the topic. Where did you see other people agreeing with him? Or why do you assume all Armenians (or at least majority of them) share his views?

[eviline]

i met a lot of armenians who are saying this

[Padre Organtino]

i met a lot of armenians who are saying this

They're ignorant or misinformed. How large is that sample of Armenians you've met anyway?

[eviline]

i read a lot of armenians comments who are saying this too

[Mosov]

Actually, you are citing some random paper that advises Armenia on which strategies they should choose to be favoured by the EU: http://www.libertas-institut.com/de/pdf/armenia%20ante%20portas.pdf - it is the personal opinion of a certain Hans-Jürgen Zahorka, and he does not hesitate to stress this subjective aspect. Will you please give links to your sources when you cite them? Moreover, his opinion on what constitutes Europe is entirely political: "membership in European bodies", "Western European civilization elements prevail" (what if Eastern or Northern or Southern European elements prevail?), "large consensus with European values" (again, irrelevant to whether a country is European - its values will be European by definition).

He felt some sort of an odd urge to translate the term Asia Minor, called "core-Europe" (whatever it is) quasi-racist, and said that "most geographers consider Georgia a European state", without any substantiation for this claim. On your map, only one definition of the border (I) includes a tiny portion of Armenia into Europe, the rest place it clearly into Asia.

I don't think you understand my point. Please read my longer post regarding my view of this. It's a bit more complicated my view.

In terms of the argument of geography, it's kind of messy. When borders are natural, for example divided by large rivers, seas, notable mountain range, it much easier to set a dividing line for a continent. For example, we all know there is no ambiguity in the border between Morocco (Africa) and Spain (Europe). The consensus that I have seen often is setting transcaucasia where Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan are located, as a border region or crossroads between Eastern Europe and Western Asia. Think of it as a buffer zone. Making the border into a buffer region is a more sensible solution. If you stick to a strict dividing line, then it will cut through the northern region of South Caucasus making a sliver of Georgia and Azerbaijan part of Europe while Armenia well South of the border. As you see this is not an ideal solution, hence using transcaucasia as a border area is more sensible.


Just to say my view. Some people here think that the European label is black and white. Very few things in our world is black and white - if you've ever been in a scientific field, you will know this firsthand - everything is filled with shades of grey and ambiguity. This is a elementary concept one must grasp before answering such question.

I will break down into these components.

Geography: Armenia is located in the transcaucasus, in the eastern portion of the Armenian highland. The transcaucasus is a border region between Europe and Asia. There's a lot of controversy on the actual specific border, and we can argue all the day on the exact border - but that's not really efficient. In the end of the day this can best be described as the crossroads between Europe and Asia.

Culture: I view firstly Armenian culture as unique. I have not desire to label Armenian culture. Of course, Armenian culture in addition to the core root that is mixed with our Christian heritage, we took influences from empires that we lived under, empires we lived near, and also at times from European powers. So there's a mixed amount of influences, but I stick to just the Armenian label when it comes to culture.

Genetics: genetics reflects geography, our genetics shows we are people living the region where we are, little point here.

Society: Armenian society is a mix between Soviet values and our Armenian/Christian values. Of course during independence our society has been keen to import European values. In all, our society gives a more liberal/European feel nowadays as we have a lot of our modern culture connected to Europe.

Political: We are politically European. No question about that. Our government is integrating with European institutions and structures. Our political ties with Europe are strong, though our strategic ties lie with Russia.

So as you see it's not black and white. There's a lot of grey area. People really must look at all aspects. Honestly, I don't see how all these different components can be put under one label. Doing so will be inaccurate and ignore the grey area nature of it.

[Mosov]

they (Armenians) are wannabe european

http://static6.businessinsider.com/image/4e777245ecad04cb2a00003b-400-300/tbilisi-georgia.jpg

I rest my case.

[eviline]

:DDDDDDDDD and whant do you want say? georgians are coming here and saying that we are europeans georgians dont think so you are wannabee european and its politic if in georgia are those flags it does not means that georginas think so :DDDDDD

[Mosov]

:DDDDDDDDD and whant do you want say? georgians are coming here and saying that we are europeans georgians dont think so you are wannabee european and its politic if in georgia are those flags it does not means that georginas think so :DDDDDD

Haha, sure it doesn't mean anything. You guys got EU flag at every corner, I mean seriously have some self pride and read my posts before making any assumption of what I'm saying.

[eviline]

if our politics have this flag means that people think so? : DDDDDD i saw video when armenian is saying that georgian flag is armenian :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

[PBachman]

if our politics have this flag means that people think so? : DDDDDD

Clearly, at this point I would just stop arguing as you are not making sense. Please, you are trying to make this into something it is not. We get it, you feel Armenians are not European. Your gut instincts tells you that. That is fine, but continually arguing and turning into a Georgia vs. Armenia thread is unproductive.

[Mosov]

if our politics have this flag means that people think so? : DDDDDD

What the hell is that supposed to mean? So government is forcibly putting EU flags against people's will? You are cute lol

[Mosov]

Clearly, at this point I would just stop arguing as you are not making sense. Please, you are trying to make this into something it is not. We get it, you feel Armenians are not European. Your gut instincts tells you that. That is fine, but continually arguing and turning into a Georgia vs. Armenia thread is unproductive.

Her boyfriend is probably Azeri....:D

[eviline]

georgian flag is armenian http://armeniansworld.com/?tag=georgian-flag

armenians created georgian identity http://armeniansworld.com/?p=11797

your falsificated everything

[PBachman]

georgian flag is armenian http://armeniansworld.com/?tag=georgian-flag

armenians created georgian identity http://armeniansworld.com/?p=11797

your falsificated everything

That is fine, but arguing against the above point even if I disagree with you is not the objective of this thread. If you cycle back, your argument went from "Armenians are xyz" to "Armenians are fake xyz" to "Armenians 'falsificated' xyz", clearly, there is something wrong in that chain implications. I can be objective about my posts, but I don't think you can. Anyways, let us just agree to disagree as this is going nowhere.

[Mosov]

At this point we are just feeding the troll. Let her tire herself out.

[eviline]

what do you whant? i just said that most armenian people are enemy of georgian journalist was asking georgian people most unfriend people which people you considering enemy and armenia was second i am not saing that all are like this

[PBachman]

At this point we are just feeding the troll. Let her tire herself out.

Well, I don't think she is a troll, but she certainly has strong opinions. :D

[Loki]

I doubt whether eviline is actually Georgian, or a troll from some other ethnicity trying to give Georgians a bad name? I mean, clearly this individual is nothing compared to Padre Organtino.

I also noticed that Padre messaged eviline in Georgian, but she responded back in English (probably used Google Translate to understand what he was saying).

Therefore, I question whether eviline is in fact Georgian at all.

[eviline]

i am full georgian i am not troll i am just saying truth i will found this and i will post

[Padre Organtino]

I doubt whether eviline is actually Georgian, or a troll from some other ethnicity trying to give Georgians a bad name? I mean, clearly this individual is nothing compared to Padre Organtino.

I also noticed that Padre messaged eviline in Georgian, but she responded back in English (probably used Google Translate to understand what he was saying).

Therefore, I question whether eviline is in fact Georgian at all.

No, she messaged me in Georgian translit. She is a young girl and honestly some of her weird ideas are not that different from what certain members argue for here (no, I mean Nero:p).
And to add more one of the Armenian users here (Arsen) delibaretly writes crap about Georgians. So her negative reaction was partly caused by his posts.

[Mosov]

So her negative reaction was partly caused by his posts.

and It makes it justified for her to troll? She's already trolled all the Armenian threads with the same one liners...

[Loki]

No, she messaged me in Georgian translit. She is a young girl and honestly some of her weird ideas are not that different from what certain members argue for here (no, I mean Nero:p).
And to add more one of the Armenian users here (Arsen) delibaretly writes crap about Georgians. So her negative reaction was partly caused by his posts.

Thanks for clearing that up :)

It seems that Apricity is not only having to deal with Balkan Wars, but also now Caucasus Wars. ;) :D

Bring it on, baby. We can deal with it and bring peace. :coffee:

[Padre Organtino]

and It makes it justified for her to troll? She's already trolled all the Armenian threads with the same one liners...

I agree that she was not very contructive but apart from that she was mostly posting on Georgian related stuff (and you have to give her credit for being consistent - she also does not consider Georgians European).

[Mosov]

I agree that she was not very contructive but apart from that she was mostly posting on Georgian related stuff (and you have to give her credit for being consistent - she also does not consider Georgians European).

My view on Armenians being European or not was spelled out in that long post of mine:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=714562&postcount=32

To make a long story short, the notion of placing European label is rather complicated and gets ambiguous. I prefer Armenians not to be labelled and just be Armenians. Labelling us in my view blurs the many things about our history, culture, geography, etc.

Most accurate description/label for Armenians is an Indo-European speaking Christian people native to the Armenian Highlands.

[PBachman]

And to add more one of the Armenian users here (Arsen) delibaretly writes crap about Georgians. So her negative reaction was partly caused by his posts.

Can you cite it? Please, cite it and then we can go back in the chain of implications. She could have just responded to his or her post, but she seems to this to everyone including people like me who are trying to help her. There is no logic in what she writes. Arsen has a coherent idea. You could clearly argue against it, but she just writes the same that "Armenians are enemies", "Armenians xyz", and bla bla bla ... really I find it amusing, but please don't insult Arsen. You can't compare her to any of the Armenian posters, let us be honest. She has clear communication problems and I don't hold it against her as English may not her be her primary language.

[Padre Organtino]

My view on Armenians being European or not was spelled out in that long post of mine:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=714562&postcount=32

I believe that genetics plays a bigger role and it is essentially about fundamental differences between humans.

[eviline]

i am not troll i am just saying that armenia is not south cauacsus armenians are agresive against georgians making stupid videos against georgians i am just saying that we were never friendly countries

[PBachman]

Also, cite the chain of implications within this thread. What in this thread has offended her? Clearly, you have folks that can have a different opinion, obviously, you have to try to provide an argument or else the thread reduces down to a shouting match.

[Mosov]

I believe that genetics plays a bigger role and it is essentially about fundamental differences between humans.

Genetics reflects geography. I've said this many times. Genetic clustering pretty much reflects a geographic map.

As I said my label for Armenians is "an Indo-European speaking Christian people native to the Armenian Highlands." Yes it's long, but that's the most accurate thing, anything else is blurring our nation's elements.

[Padre Organtino]

i am not troll i am just saying that armenia is not south cauacsus armenians are agresive against georgians making stupid videos against georgians i am just saying that we were never friendly countries

Stupid youtube channel is not an objective source of info (I agree videos are idiotic) but over the course of centuris the nationswere much more often allied than not. Now that does not mean we have to repeat Soviet style propaganda about eternal brotherhood and etc but I believe that you can act nicer to them at least here (majoirty of Armenian members here don't have a negative bias against Georgians).

[Padre Organtino]

Genetics reflects geography. I've said this many times. Genetic clustering pretty much reflects a geographic map.

As I said my label for Armenians is "an Indo-European speaking Christian people native to the Armenian Highlands." Yes it's long, but that's the most accurate thing, anything else is blurring our nation's elements.

Well, it actually doesn't. Check out how far are North Africans from Spaniards and see for yourself that African Americans have little to no similarities with White Americans.

[eviline]

only videos? they are saying that our kings were armenians, that rustaveli was armenian, svans megrels are not georgian they are anti georgian i dont care about armenians i am just saying that its not caucasus and we were never friendly states

[Mosov]

Well, it actually doesn't. Check out how far are North Africans from Spaniards and see for yourself that African Americans have little to no similarities with White Americans.

Because genetic flow is disturbed by natural barriers (e.g. mountains, seas, rivers). It can also to an extent be disturbed by restrictive religious limitations.

[Padre Organtino]

Because genetic flow is disturbed by natural barriers (e.g. mountains, seas, rivers). It can also to an extent be disturbed by restrictive religious limitations.

So at the end of the day some populations are considerbly different from the other ones. You can't just ignore it.

[Mosov]

So at the end of the day some populations are considerbly different from the other ones. You can't just ignore it.

That difference will be due to genetic flow barriers such as mountain ranges. Again just look at a genetic clustering map and compare it with a geographic map. You will obviously have more genetic connections with the people you've lived around for ages, given genetic flow has been undisturbed. Come on mate this is pretty basic genetics here.

[Armin]

The thing is, those divisions do not reflect whether a country is European or not. They are discussion groups. If Greece believed itself to be Southwest Asia, they could ask to be included into the group.

The "group" simply lists the Caucasian countries under Caucasus. It does the same (for example) for Baltic states as well. They are not "united" as you mentioned earlier, but are simply just that, fall in a region, under Eastern Europe.



The EU is not "Europeans", nor are they neutral experts on geography. It mostly consists of unelected officials with very particular views (e.g., pro-multiculturalism, pro-EU, EU expansion, etc.)

The EU is the single most important European structure that we have. One can like or dislike this fact, however it does not change the reality of this fact.



It is a political designation, especially considering the EU's use of "Europe". The inclusion of Turkey and the Caucasus into Europe is a controversial political topic, and the EU will eagerly tamper with geographic conventions to further its interests.

Armenia (and Georgia) are included geographically within Eastern Europe, while Turkey is not. A number of top EU officials have repeatedly spoken out against Turkey ever becoming a member of the EU. I am almost certain this will remain a reality for a long time to come.



No, such patterns cannot be observed with Armenians and Europeans. I posted Bulgarians, Romanians, North Italians, and Greeks in the table. Perhaps I have to visualise it differently. The Turks, on a side note, don't have "prevalent" non-Caucasian elements, they are very small indeed. Unless you use the term to show that it is present in all Turks, regardless of the size.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/Humanophage/AdmixtureArmeColour.gif
Red = common European components, blue = common West Asian components. Sorted by light red + dark red. The composition of Armenians has very little red, the same as Druze, Syrians, Kurds. Not at all like even the most West Asian ethnicities in Europe like Greeks or Sicilians, and even further away from Tuscans, Bulgarians, Romanians.

Rather conveniently, there is a new Dodecad PCA precisely on the region:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-UCP5T1pduGU/TzpBa9QbK3I/AAAAAAAAEe4/_uWuqnnb1zQ/s1600/1_2.png

The Turkish Central Asian component is in double digits according to most genetic studies and that is not small by any measures.

As far as the Caucasian component goes it is (as the region itself) is European, that is why Dodecad pointed out that "West Asian" is too broad and actually incorrect classification. Look at the Caucasian component in other European populations such as the Greeks, Bulgarians, Romanians, Tuscans and many others and you will also see that this is correct. Like I pointed out earlier, if you exclude the Caucasian component from Armenians as non-European (which is absolutely incorrect) than you have to do so for a good deal of European populations as well.

[eviline]

georgia is not part europe georgia is south caucasus armenia is not south caucasus

[Hess]

Whiteness can't be bought with money. You're either born with it in your genes, or you're not.

born with what in your genes? Greeks and sicilians have around 45% Non-Euro admix, are they "born with it in their genes"?

[Eva]

I doubt whether eviline is actually Georgian, or a troll from some other ethnicity trying to give Georgians a bad name? I mean, clearly this individual is nothing compared to Padre Organtino.

Therefore, I question whether eviline is in fact Georgian at all.

Her behavior is very typical for a Georgian.

Most I have come across lately don't differ really much, some do it in a more professional and polite manner, some are plain like eviline.

By the way from time to time I get messages on my Youtube account from a Georgian girl like "Fuck Armenia" lol and other things filled with hatred. I wonder if it's eviline.

[Stegura]

Her behavior is very typical for a Georgian.

Most I have come across lately don't differ really much, some do it in a more professional and polite manner, some are plain like eviline.

By the way from time to time I get messages on my Youtube account from a Georgian girl like "Fuck Armenia" lol and other things filled with hatred. I wonder if it's eviline.

Animosity between Armenians and Turks or Armenians and Azeri's for example is pretty understandable. But what would cause some Georgians to dislike Armenians?

[Padre Organtino]

Animosity between Armenians and Turks or Armenians and Azeri's for example is pretty understandable. But what would cause some Georgians to dislike Armenians?

They're Joos in Georgian nationalistic discourse.

[eviline]

armenian fairytales http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGtMmluyHbI

in this forum is asking who is georgia first enemy armenians are second http://forum.ge/?act=ST&f=29&t=33921764

[Eva]

Animosity between Armenians and Turks or Armenians and Azeri's for example is pretty understandable. But what would cause some Georgians to dislike Armenians?


But you know even if Armenians hate Turks, I have never noticed the behavior such as in Georgians. Armenians just struggle for their rights according to law, and the only thing is that we have to confront the lies and hatred that Turks and Azeris spread everywhere.

An Armenian doctor scarcely survived Genocide and who had seen all of his people being brutally murdered, would save the life of a Turk many years later.
While an azeri nurse learning that the sick child was Armenian, had tried to kill him.

As to Georgians their behavior is the most low and disgraceful one. This is their gratitude for Armenians treating them like brothers. I really don't understand it.

[eviline]

i will invite here rezo chigogidze :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

[Humanophage]

The Turkish Central Asian component is in double digits according to most genetic studies and that is not small by any measures.

As far as the Caucasian component goes it is (as the region itself) is European, that is why Dodecad pointed out that "West Asian" is too broad and actually incorrect classification. Look at the Caucasian component in other European populations such as the Greeks, Bulgarians, Romanians, Tuscans and many others and you will also see that this is correct. Like I pointed out earlier, if you exclude the Caucasian component from Armenians as non-European (which is absolutely incorrect) than you have to do so for a good deal of European populations as well.
To be frank, this consistent abundance of odd and unsubstantiated claims (a screenshot from an uncited pro-Armenia document by a private person describes the official EU position, UNGEGN has Armenia in European divisions and specifically in the Eastern European division, Tuscans are similar to Armenians, a map (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/TransAsia_m2.png) with a bunch of borders all of which place Armenia into Asia makes the Caucasus and hence Armenia a transitional region, etc.) makes me feel like I am being trolled. Now, the Turks don't have "genetic admixtures measured in two digits", according to most genetic studies.

Dodecad weac: 6.7% Far East (1.6% for Armenians, by the way) - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDZBNmxiWG45WDBJNHlrN1YzMFBKR Wc&hl=en_US#gid=0
Dodecad K7b: 3.6% Siberian, 2.5% East Asian - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadHZ6SHpiLTNTa3lsUmZJY2pQblVRR 2c#gid=0
Dodecad K12b: 3.1% Siberian, 3% East Asian - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE#gid=0
Harappa K=11: 4% Siberian, 2% East Asian, 1% American - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuW3R0Ys-P4HdGI3V2Z0SEs5WmRPcVoybDJXNzRIWXc&hl=en#gid=9
Eurogenes K10: 2.7% East Asian on average - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ato3EYTdM8lQdG1MZnBEal9QLVZtekV5SEdWUjJpW EE&hl=en_US#gid=0
Yunusbaev K7: 1-8% North and East Asian - http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-AiqxfdH1kqo/TnC1DOX7yUI/AAAAAAAAEHk/LanedZAS19Q/s1600/admixture-caucasus.png

That is less than e.g. the Finns or Mordovians usually get.

The Caucasian component is not the sole component in Armenians. Many European nations have some non-European components in some amounts: Russians and Finns have North Asian, Italians and Greeks have West Asian and Mid East, Portuguese have African and Northwest African. The difference is that Armenians lack the European components. Even Cypriots, arguably Middle Easterners included because of Greek influence there, have twice as much Euro as Armenians do - Sicilians have four times as much.

Now, if you say that "Caucasus" is a European component, then not only Armenians, but also Druze, Samaritians, Iraq and Iran Jews, Kurds, Turks, Lebanese, Syrians, Assyrians and so forth are predominantly European. All of those guys are about as European as Armenians: being predominantly "Caucasus" (40%+) with "Gedrosia" and "Southwest Asia", and with 0-10% North Euro (4% for Armenians) and 5-13.2% Atlantic-Med (8-11% for Armenians, 13.2% for Turks). The figures are for K12b.

[eviline]

armenains are not south cauacasus they are wannabe caucasian and wannabee european :DDDDDDDD

[Eva]

armenains are not south cauacasus they are wannabe caucasian and wannabee european :DDDDDDDD

is there an Apricity ambulance I wonder lol and is this so important? :DDDDDDDDD

[Mosov]

is there an Apricity ambulance I wonder lol and is this so important? :DDDDDDDDD

She's an annoying troll - like a fly.

[Padre Organtino]

armenains are not south cauacasus they are wannabe caucasian and wannabee european :DDDDDDDD

I have nothing against trolling local Armenian Nordicists but this is over the top.

[Eva]

I have nothing against trolling local Armenian Nordicists but this is over the top.

You just feel like a troll when you confront an Armenian lol you and your sister proved who are the real "nordicists" when shown the reality of Georgian looks by others, so quit it, please

[Padre Organtino]

You just feel like a troll when you confront an Armenian lol you and your sister proved who are the real "nordicists" when shown the reality of Georgian looks by others, so quit it, please

Lolwut? I have several times told her that exotic looking people who she lableled as foreigners were ethnic Georgians. If anything the amount of comical butthurt and drama that you and certain another poster produced over Kardashian's looks far exceeds evelin's trolling (that I don't like).

[eviline]

armenian are jealous georgians because georgians are way whiter :DDDDDDDDDDDDD you are not south caucasus you have nothing common with caucasian people you are semites

armenian georgian show
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaGbRoiegx4
armenian chick is darkest
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6nYGc5izNw&feature=related
armenian boy is dark

you are just jealous georgians

[Padre Organtino]

armenian are jealous georgians because georgians are way whiter :DDDDDDDDDDDDD you are not south caucasus you have nothing common with caucasian people you are semites

Ok, we got an idea. Can you please stop repeating it now?

[eviline]

what do you whant? i think that you are not georgian i will invite here rezo and he will answer armos

[Padre Organtino]

what do you whant? i think that you are not georgian i will invite here rezo and he will answer armos

I think I am and why is that rezo guy so important to you anyway? Is he that funny dude that posts pickup vids on his wall?

[Mosov]

armenian are jealous georgians because georgians are way whiter :DDDDDDDDDDDDD you are not south caucasus you have nothing common with caucasian people you are semites

armenian georgian show
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaGbRoiegx4
armenian chick is darkest
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6nYGc5izNw&feature=related
armenian boy is dark

you are just jealous georgians

You need to be banned.

[Arsen_]

Animosity between Armenians and Turks or Armenians and Azeri's for example is pretty understandable. But what would cause some Georgians to dislike Armenians?

Here's the answer to your question:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40860

[Mosov]

Thank God, eviline is finally banned.

[Armin]

To be frank, this consistent abundance of odd and unsubstantiated claims (a screenshot from an uncited pro-Armenia document by a private person describes the official EU position, UNGEGN has Armenia in European divisions and specifically in the Eastern European division, Tuscans are similar to Armenians, a map (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/TransAsia_m2.png) with a bunch of borders all of which place Armenia into Asia makes the Caucasus and hence Armenia a transitional region, etc.) makes me feel like I am being trolled. Now, the Turks don't have "genetic admixtures measured in two digits", according to most genetic studies.

Actually, Armenia is officially listed under Eastern Europe by Eurovoc (as official as you can get) which I noted is the most important decision maker in this regard. To continue to ignore or not to see this, to me is indeed trolling because it is obvious as a day.


Dodecad weac: 6.7% Far East (1.6% for Armenians, by the way) - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDZBNmxiWG45WDBJNHlrN1YzMFBKR Wc&hl=en_US#gid=0
Dodecad K7b: 3.6% Siberian, 2.5% East Asian - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadHZ6SHpiLTNTa3lsUmZJY2pQblVRR 2c#gid=0
Dodecad K12b: 3.1% Siberian, 3% East Asian - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE#gid=0
Harappa K=11: 4% Siberian, 2% East Asian, 1% American - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuW3R0Ys-P4HdGI3V2Z0SEs5WmRPcVoybDJXNzRIWXc&hl=en#gid=9
Eurogenes K10: 2.7% East Asian on average - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ato3EYTdM8lQdG1MZnBEal9QLVZtekV5SEdWUjJpW EE&hl=en_US#gid=0
Yunusbaev K7: 1-8% North and East Asian - http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-AiqxfdH1kqo/TnC1DOX7yUI/AAAAAAAAEHk/LanedZAS19Q/s1600/admixture-caucasus.png

That is less than e.g. the Finns or Mordovians usually get.

Yes and what I said is quite correct (in light of the above as well), simply add the above Turkic derived Far Eastern, Siberian, North and East Asian percentile and in most studies and you end up with double digits (the sum standing somewhere near 10 to 15% depending on the study) that are not native to the region.


The Caucasian component is not the sole component in Armenians. Many European nations have some non-European components in some amounts: Russians and Finns have North Asian, Italians and Greeks have West Asian and Mid East, Portuguese have African and Northwest African. The difference is that Armenians lack the European components. Even Cypriots, arguably Middle Easterners included because of Greek influence there, have twice as much Euro as Armenians do - Sicilians have four times as much.

Incorrect, as I said before, "West Asian" is a broad and thus incorrect category and the Caucasian element that is present in Armenians and other European peoples is as European as any other.


Now, if you say that "Caucasus" is a European component, then not only Armenians, but also Druze, Samaritians, Iraq and Iran Jews, Kurds, Turks, Lebanese, Syrians, Assyrians and so forth are predominantly European. All of those guys are about as European as Armenians: being predominantly "Caucasus" (40%+) with "Gedrosia" and "Southwest Asia", and with 0-10% North Euro (4% for Armenians) and 5-13.2% Atlantic-Med (8-11% for Armenians, 13.2% for Turks). The figures are for K12b.

No, Armenians have their own cluster, please see here. http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=716723&postcount=609

And once again look at the great amount of the Caucasian component in Greeks, Bulgarians, Romanians, Italians and many others. Are they not European to you? In fact, the Caucasian component is not only a European element, but is closely associated with the very important diffusion of Indo-Europeans, so like I noted before, it is as European as you can get.


Also, the fact that West Asia is ultimately involved in the Indo-European phenomenon is strongly suggested by an examination of the two non-Indo-European populations of Europe, Basques and Finns, that differ from their neighbors in terms of the Caucasus component:

French 8.4%
French_Basque 0.1%
Spaniards 9.6%
IBS 8.9%

FIN25 1.6%
Finnish_D 1.5%
Lithuanians 6.7%
Lithuanian_D 6.6%
Russian 8.2%
Russian_D 9.6%

Note that Swedish_D and Norwegian_D have similar low % of the Caucasus component as Finns, but 6.1/6.4% of the related Gedrosia component which is 0.3-0.6% in Finns.

These contrasts are indicative that non-Indo-European populations in Europe have been less affected by the whatever Caucasus-Gedrosia represents than Indo-European ones.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/12/womb-of-nations-how-west-eurasians-came.html