Disparate Divine Names in Relation to Identity

[Psychonaut]

I'm reposting this, along with a few other of my old threads, over here. They were originally posted on Skadi, but since I probably won't be able to access that site much longer, I'd like to keep them here.

The Gods of our ancestors are, today known by many names. While an Icelander speaks of Týr, Óðinn, and Þórr, and Englishman knows Tíw, Wóden, and Þunor. The names of these Deities come down to us through a combination of period literature and linguistic reconstruction. While we do know that our forefathers interacted with various European tribes, what we do not know is how the ancient Germanics viewed the Gods of their neighbors. Would a Norwegian raider recognize the Anglo-Saxon Fríge as being the same Goddess as his own Frigg? Do we, as modern Heathens, accept a Pan-Germanic view and accept disparate divine names as being regional manifestations of one God, or do we take each regional Deity as being unique?

The reason that we have as many variants of divine names is due entirely to the evolution of Germanic languages. All Germanic languages are, ultimately, derived from a reconstructed language known as Proto-Germanic. Through the process of phonetic change typefied by Grimm's Law, the various Germanic tongues branched off to form that variety we have today:

http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/germaniclanguages.gif

Through this process, the original Proto-Germanic *Wóðanaz (the asterisk denotes that a word is a reconstruction) became Wuotan in Old High German, Wóden in Anglo-Saxon, and Óðinn in Old Norse.

So, knowing then, the genesis of the names of our Gods, how do we interpret the disparity? It seems to me that there are two basic position, both of which can, of course, be broken down further into differentiated views. The first being that regional Deities are, for whatever reason, distinct from their related counterparts. According to this view Óðinn and Wuotan are two different entities and the conflation of the two is wrong. On the other hand, we can view the disparate names as being merely regional pronunciations of the same divine name. In this way, Týr and Tíw would be identified as just being different pronunciations of the primal god-name *Tíwaz.

If we are to accept the first position, when we must face the question of how a regional phoneme shift is able to affect the nature of a God. Does Odin branch off into two distinct Gods every time a group of people starts to pronounce his name differently? However, if we accept the counter view, we must then deal with the slippery slope of Pan-Aryanism. After all, if Týr and Tíw are the same God, wouldn't the same principle apply on an Pan-Indo-European leval; thus Týr would be equated with Zeus, by way of the primal god-name *Dyeus.

Although I don't have an answer for this, I can say that the second option makes a bit more sense. A good historical example of this process would be Charlemagne. His original name would've bee Carollus Magnus, which, through the changes that led to Latin becoming French, became Charlemagne. To the Germans, he is Karl der Grosse; which, in English translates nicely to Charles the Great. Although these names are all regionally distinct, and the corresponding views of the man are also regionally distinct, there is no doubt that they all refer to one unique personage. Would the Gods follow this example as well?

[Lyfing]

Hey Psychonaut,

I've thought about this a good little bit since you last posted it..

Our myths are full of polyonomous characters, and we have a thing for kennings. This allows us to go on a search for an original meaning. And, create new ones. We can go back and say that Tyr “was once” a Sky-Father like Zeus and maybe find that meaning there. There is another side to this coin though. It has to do with hearing the myth as it is from the society that spoke it. A culture's myths are their dreams inasmuch as they create, live in, and seek fulfillment in their own worlds. Odin is a god of poetry. Does anyone really know all of his names..?? He created the world as much as poets are the coiners of new ideas. Something like Carlyle said with..


Thought does not die, but only is changed. The first man that began to think in this Planet of ours, he was the beginner of all. And then the second man, and the third man;--nay, every true Thinker to this hour is a kind of Odin, teaches men his way of thought, spreads a shadow of his own likeness over sections of the History of the World.

http://www.northvegr.org/lore/carlyle/005.php

..is what I'm getting at. So, I think, that while, we can find elementary ideas as far back as we can't even see, and that there is a difference with every god and goddess with a different name, that, out of recognition and appreciation of this comes a creative spark the likes of which Odin himself would set out in search for..!!

Later,
-Lyfing

[Bloodeagle]

I do believe that the mystics and learned men would have recognized these gods as being their own.
.

[Barreldriver]

I favor the second option that Psy listed. I personally view them as different pronunciations of the same deity, plus you have to consider how the deity's traits overlap between the tribes of the Germanic folk as they do with non-Germanic European deities, who the Celtic speaking folks call Nuada may be who the Germanic folks call Tyr or Tiw, then you have to consider the many names that these gods gave themselves and where given by the people they personally interacted with for instance Odin's many names many of which are listed in the Grimnismol:

46. Grim is my name, | Gangleri am 1,
Herjan and Hjalmberi,
Thekk and Thrithi, | Thuth and Uth,
Helblindi and Hor;

47. Sath and Svipal | and Sanngetal,
Herteit and Hnikar,
Bileyg, Baleyg, | Bolverk, Fjolnir,
Grim and Grimnir, | Glapsvith, Fjolsvith.

48. Sithhott, Sithskegg, | Sigfather, Hnikuth,


each name was specific to an encounter Odin made with an individual am I not mistaken?

Which leads me to this point, an extension of what I have been reiterating in other threads in regards to our own personal deification, we ourselves are known by many "nicknames" then we have our own birth names, when/if, stress on if, we become deities we will have our birth name, our names that others know us by, and our universal name. The birth name being that original root name that was given to us, the nickname that is specific to our interactions with others a title of recognition perhaps, and our universal name that when it is spoken all will know who is being spoken of.

[Óttar]

One must take into account the ancient practice of identification. For example, Tacitus identifies certain Germanic deities as Mercury, Jupiter, and Venus. The Celtic goddess Sulis at Bath was identified with Minerva, so becoming Sulis-Minerva. Not to mention the blending of different deities within one region i.e. Venus-Aphrodite, Artemis-Diana, Isis-Hera, Isis-Astarte etc. If this sort of identification can take place from such disparate locations, then certainly the Saxon Woden would've easily been identified by an invading Dane as Odinn.

[Lyfing]

I think the second notion there is easiest to go with from a perspective of re-constructing something which will always really be something new itself. That new thing will be particular to the time and place as the different named ones were at one time.

So, what to make of Frigga and Freya..??


Frigg is the highest goddess of the Æsir, while Freyja is the highest goddess of the Vanir. Many arguments have been made both for and against the idea that Frigg and Freyja are really the same goddess, avatars of one another.[19] Some arguments are based on linguistic analysis, others on the fact that Freyja wasn't known in southern Germany, only in the north, and in some places the two goddesses were considered to be the same, while in others they were considered to be different.[20] There are clearly many similarities between the two: both had flying cloaks of falcon feathers and engaged in shape-shifting, Frigg was married to Odin while Freyja was married to Óðr, both had special necklaces, both had a personification of the Earth as a parent, both were called upon for assistance in childbirth, etc.

There is also an argument that Frigg and Freyja are part of a triad of goddesses (together with a third goddess such as Hnoss or Iðunn) associated with the different ages of womankind.[21][unreliable source?] The areas of influence of Frigg and Freyja don't quite match up with the areas of influence often seen in other goddess triads. This may mean that the argument isn't a good one, or it may show something interesting about northern European culture as compared to Celtic and southern European culture.

Finally, there is an argument is that Frigg and Freyja are similar goddesses from different pantheons who were first conflated into each other and then later seen as separate goddesses again (see also Frige). This is consistent with the theological treatment of some Greek, Roman, and Egyptian deities in the late classical period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frigg

Are they *Frijjō ..??


*Frijjō ("Frigg-Frija"), cognate to Sanskrit Priya, is the name or epithet of a Common Germanic love goddess, the most prominent female member of the *Ansiwiz (gods), and often identified as the spouse of the chief god, *Wōdanaz (Woden-Odin).

The two Old Norse goddesses Freyja and Frigg appear to be reflected by only a single goddess in West Germanic and likely derive from a single Common Germanic goddess, one of whose epithets was *frijjō "beloved" and *frawjō "lady". Freyja "Lady" is thus considered a hypostasis of the chief "Frigg-Frija" goddess, together with other hypostases like Fulla and Nanna derived from skaldic epithets, similar to Odhr*besides many other aspects in skaldic tradition deriving from Odin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frige

They might have once been what they ain't anymore..


Frigg the daughter of Fiörgynn (p. 172), as consort of the highest god, (110) takes rank above all other goddesses: she knows the fates of men (Sæm. 63b. Sn. 23. 64), is consulted by Oðinn (Sæm. 31ª), administers oaths, handmaids fulfil her hest, she presides over marriages, and her aid is implored by the childless (Fornald. sög. 1, 117)

http://www.northvegr.org/lore/grimmst/013_14.php



Freya is the goddess most honoured after or along with Frigg; her worship seems to have been even the more prevalent and important of the two, she is styled 'agætuz af Asynjum,' Sn. 28, and 'blôtgyðja,' Yngl. saga cap. 4, to whom frequent sacrifices were offered. Heiðrekr sacrificed a boar to her, as elsewhere to Freyr, and honoured her above all other gods. (113) She was wedded to a man (not a god, at least not an As), named Oðr, but he forsook her, and she sought him all over the world, among strange peoples, shedding tears. Her name Sýr (Sn. 37) would perhaps be Saúrs in Gothic: Wilh. Müller has detected the very same in the Syritha of Saxo Gram. p. 125, who likewise goes in search of Othar. Freyja's tears were golden, gold is named after them, and she herself is 'grâtfagr,' fair in greeting (weeping), Sn. 37. 119. 133; in our nursery-tales pearls and flowers are wept or laughed out, and dame Holla bestows the gift of weeping such tears. But the oldest authorities make her warlike also; in a waggon drawn by two cats (as Thôrr drives two goats) (114) she rides to the battlefield, 'riðr til vîgs,' and goes shares with Oðinn in the slain (supra p. 133, conf Sæm. 42ª. Sn. 28. 57). She is called 'eigandi valfalls' (quae sortitur caesos in pugna), Sn. 119; valfreyja, mistress of the chosen, Nialss. p. 118

http://www.northvegr.org/lore/grimmst/013_14.php

If they did come from the same original idea they are now two very different goddesses. We can find all the parallels within their myths that we want to, but the fact remains that they are called by two different names and carry on in two very different ways..!! How to take this..??

Any thoughts..??

Later,
-Lyfing

[Sol Invictus]

Some great information here guys thanks a bunch.

[Psychonaut]

One must take into account the ancient practice of identification. For example, Tacitus identifies certain Germanic deities as Mercury, Jupiter, and Venus. The Celtic goddess Sulis at Bath was identified with Minerva, so becoming Sulis-Minerva. Not to mention the blending of different deities within one region i.e. Venus-Aphrodite, Artemis-Diana, Isis-Hera, Isis-Astarte etc. If this sort of identification can take place from such disparate locations, then certainly the Saxon Woden would've easily been identified by an invading Dane as Odinn.

I'm familiar with this practice as it exists in the interpretatio graeca and interpretatio romana, but was this type of thought a Greco-Roman anomaly or something that would've been understandable to the European tribes that the Greeks and Romans encountered and then wrote about? All of the sources that I can think of off hand that use this type of reasoning were written by either Romans or Gallo-Romans. Are there any accounts of 'untainted' Celts or Germans doing the same?

[YggsVinr]

I favor the second option that Psy listed. I personally view them as different pronunciations of the same deity, plus you have to consider how the deity's traits overlap between the tribes of the Germanic folk as they do with non-Germanic European deities, who the Celtic speaking folks call Nuada may be who the Germanic folks call Tyr or Tiw, then you have to consider the many names that these gods gave themselves and where given by the people they personally interacted with for instance Odin's many names many of which are listed in the Grimnismol:

46. Grim is my name, | Gangleri am 1,
Herjan and Hjalmberi,
Thekk and Thrithi, | Thuth and Uth,
Helblindi and Hor;

47. Sath and Svipal | and Sanngetal,
Herteit and Hnikar,
Bileyg, Baleyg, | Bolverk, Fjolnir,
Grim and Grimnir, | Glapsvith, Fjolsvith.

48. Sithhott, Sithskegg, | Sigfather, Hnikuth,


each name was specific to an encounter Odin made with an individual am I not mistaken?

Which leads me to this point, an extension of what I have been reiterating in other threads in regards to our own personal deification, we ourselves are known by many "nicknames" then we have our own birth names, when/if, stress on if, we become deities we will have our birth name, our names that others know us by, and our universal name. The birth name being that original root name that was given to us, the nickname that is specific to our interactions with others a title of recognition perhaps, and our universal name that when it is spoken all will know who is being spoken of.

I think you've strayed from the mark a little as far as Odin's names are concerned as well as their purpose. Tracing Odin's origins back through time we find that he always originates from one tradition: the Männerbünde. Every single other attribute of Odin's revolves around the traditions and necessities of the war cult whether it be magic, poetry and so on. Every name Odin recites in Grimnismal in some way relates to Odin as the patron of the warcult. They are not mere nicknames but descriptions of his nature as a deity, and the reason for the number of names seems more related to Dumezil's proposition that a person didn't simply have one soul but many. In Heidreks saga Hervor changes her name to Hervard when she goes Viking. Of course we can't regard the sagas as precise historic accounts, but it does show that names and their fluidity are related to shape-changing in some way just the way Odin is also Svipdal ie. the changeable. But this change of form does not necessarily mean that one is a different being nor that one is even the same being and another name only a nickname. It is a different aspect of the soul that is still apart of the unified whole and necessary to it. Sigfather and Valfather are intrinsically bound and are still present in Odin when he is Gondlir or Jalk. The one aids the other, the one is a different aspect of the other. Gondlir and Jalk determine Odin as Sigfather or Valfather and the latter two necessitate him to be the former two in turn. Also note Lyfing's comment on kennings, it appears to have little to do with deification.


I'm familiar with this practice as it exists in the interpretatio graeca and interpretatio romana, but was this type of thought a Greco-Roman anomaly or something that would've been understandable to the European tribes that the Greeks and Romans encountered and then wrote about? All of the sources that I can think of off hand that use this type of reasoning were written by either Romans or Gallo-Romans. Are there any accounts of 'untainted' Celts or Germans doing the same?

No there are not but considering that during the migration period it was not unknown to see two tribes speaking two different dialects working together they must have been able to recognize that their dialects resembled one another as well as their pantheons. One indication at least is the regions identified as "walh" by various Germanic peoples always seem to be regions that spoke a non-Germanic language: Wales, Rome, and later on France.

[Barreldriver]

I think you've strayed from the mark a little as far as Odin's names are concerned as well as their purpose. Tracing Odin's origins back through time we find that he always originates from one tradition: the Männerbünde. Every single other attribute of Odin's revolves around the traditions and necessities of the war cult whether it be magic, poetry and so on. Every name Odin recites in Grimnismal in some way relates to Odin as the patron of the warcult. They are not mere nicknames but descriptions of his nature as a deity, and the reason for the number of names seems more related to Dumezil's proposition that a person didn't simply have one soul but many. In Heidreks saga Hervor changes her name to Hervard when she goes Viking. Of course we can't regard the sagas as precise historic accounts, but it does show that names and their fluidity are related to shape-changing in some way just the way Odin is also Svipdal ie. the changeable. But this change of form does not necessarily mean that one is a different being nor that one is even the same being and another name only a nickname. It is a different aspect of the soul that is still apart of the unified whole and necessary to it. Sigfather and Valfather are intrinsically bound and are still present in Odin when he is Gondlir or Jalk. The one aids the other, the one is a different aspect of the other. Gondlir and Jalk determine Odin as Sigfather or Valfather and the latter two necessitate him to be the former two in turn. Also note Lyfing's comment on kennings, it appears to have little to do with deification.





I think you underestimate the power of a nickname. It is a representation of the variances in your soul, what ever part of yourself show's most during certain encounters will be that by which those you encounter judge you and remember you by, my proposition was that those names Odin goes by were perhaps given in the context of the behavior he shown during a specific encounter. For instance I'm known by many nicknames specific to certain actions that I have performed throughout my short life.


Here's an example:

If you meet a group of individuals and lets say you slaughter 30 men in a single blow, you'll most likely be given a name that represents the behavior and action you just performed, hence it is a nickname.


Also your soul is not one single entity in my opinion, it is rather from what I understand a group of entities manifest in one form, each part influenced by your ancestors, your ancestors literally live on through you via your genetics and your soul.

[Psychonaut]

No there are not but considering that during the migration period it was not unknown to see two tribes speaking two different dialects working together they must have been able to recognize that their dialects resembled one another as well as their pantheons. One indication at least is the regions identified as "walh" by various Germanic peoples always seem to be regions that spoke a non-Germanic language: Wales, Rome, and later on France.

Yeah, I have no problem believing that a Saxon and a Langobard would've recognized Wuotan and Goden as being one and the same. What I'm wondering is if they would've made the same recognition with the Gallic God Lugus or the Roman Mercury.

[Groenewolf]

Yeah, I have no problem believing that a Saxon and a Langobard would've recognized Wuotan and Goden as being one and the same. What I'm wondering is if they would've made the same recognition with the Gallic God Lugus or the Roman Mercury.

Maybe if they had the time to study those Gods. But probaly not on first sight. The three weaving Sisters of fate are probaly a different matter.

[Psychonaut]

Maybe if they had the time to study those Gods. But probaly not on first sight. The three weaving Sisters of fate are probaly a different matter.

Just curious, what makes you think that they would not have recognized the Gods of others as being equivalent to their own when the Romans were able to easily make just that type of assessment? Any one with two eyes could see that two one-eyed All-fathers who bear spears and are accompanied by wolves and ravens are similar. What I'm wondering is whether these similarities would have been enough for the Germanics to make an identification between the two.

[Groenewolf]

Just curious, what makes you think that they would not have recognized the Gods of others as being equivalent to their own when the Romans were able to easily make just that type of assessment? Any one with two eyes could see that two one-eyed All-fathers who bear spears and are accompanied by wolves and ravens are similar. What I'm wondering is whether these similarities would have been enough for the Germanics to make an identification between the two.

I was more talking about relations between Roman and Germanic ones. The case you named is indeed an easy one, and one should probalt quickly draw the conclusion that they are the same Gods only with different names. However If we keep with comparsion Roman and Germanic Gods, that would probaly require some deeper looking. Since it does not have to translate easy one-on-one.

Lets take for example Donar. He has been compared to both Jupiter and Hercules by the Romans. Jupiter, because of the association with lightning. And Herculus, can not remember it right now.

[Óttar]

The Sumerian Inanna was called Ishtar by the Babylonians, and Venus and Astarte would've been identified as the same goddess. Gods were sometimes identified or related to one another through political contracts. Germanics would've easily identified Odin and Wodan, without a doubt. Would Germanics have identified Thor with the Celtic Tiranis? If how indigenous religions accomodate other belief systems is any indication, then yes.

Notions of religion nowadays differ from the way of the past. The old ways accomodated many different deities under an umbrella through identification, cults spreading through trade routes, marching armies etc.