Who is Metodija-Andonov Cento?

[poiuytrewq0987]

I think he is probably one of the few pure Macedonists who felt no affinity with Bulgaria. Unless, I am wrong, and you have a source or two showing how Bulgarian he was, and previously felt affinity with Bulgaria as well?

[morski]

I can dig some info on him but it's mostly in Bulgarian.

Off the top of my head: His name is obviously Bulgarian and not Serb:wink. He was born in 1902 in Prilep and studied in an Exarchate school.

He refused to take part in the administration of the New teritories in the Tsardom during WWII and sympatized with the resistance.

He presided at ASNOM in 1944 and he was responsible for inviting functionaries of the Bulgarian action committees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_Action_Committees) Yordan Chkatrov and Trayche Chundev. He also opposed the presence of Serbomans and expelled Tempo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svetozar_Vukmanovi%C4%87) from the assembly.

He was also strongly opposed to the mass arrests and killings of Bugarashi.

After he resigned from the post of Chairman of the Parliament he decided to go to the Paris peace conference as a private person and petition for the conference to send an inquiry committee in Macedonia, which would intercede for the right of self-determination of the populace and the right to secede from SFRJ. He was apprehended, though, sent to Goli otok concentration camp and died 9 years later.

He was a true Macedonian autonoimist, but not a Macedonist and he was against Serbian domination in Vardar Macednoia and the false new identity thrown on the people of Macedonia for which he eventually lost his life.

[пустиняк]

I don;t know many things about him but his name Metodija sounds like Serboman's name but maybe authorities of FYROM renamed him from Metodi to Metodija

[Crn Volk]

Cento is a true hero of Macedonia. He fought the Bulgarian and Italo-Albanian fascists and fought for a united and independent Macedonia. He supported the Macedonian language, people and state.

[morski]

Cento is a true hero of Macedonia. He fought the Bulgarian and Italo-Albanian fascists and fought for a united and independent Macedonia. He supported the Macedonian language, people and state.

:lol00002:

[Romanion]

He was a true Macedonian autonoimist, but not a Macedonist and he was against Serbian domination in Vardar Macednoia and the false new identity thrown on the people of Macedonia for which he eventually lost his life.

This is a tried and true tactic in the region, if you want a part of another country you go for autonomy first then union. This happened with Eastern Rumelia for Bulgaria, Crete for Greece, the first Serbian state was autonomous then seeded from the Ottomans and so did Wallachia, and more recently Kosovo was granted autonomy now it declared independance :eek: Its a tried and tested method I think Cento was aiming for to seperate Vardar Macedonia from Yugoslavia and maybe eventual union with Bulgaria.

Did he leave any memiors to read?

[Crn Volk]

No, Cento was for an independent Macedonia outside of SFRJ that would have Pirin and Aegean Macedonia join it. He was imprisoned for his views.

[morski]

This is a tried and true tactic in the region, if you want a part of another country you go for autonomy first then union. This happened with Eastern Rumelia for Bulgaria, Crete for Greece, the first Serbian state was autonomous then seeded from the Ottomans and so did Wallachia, and more recently Kosovo was granted autonomy now it declared independance :eek: Its a tried and tested method I think Cento was aiming for to seperate Vardar Macedonia from Yugoslavia and maybe eventual union with Bulgaria.

Did he leave any memiors to read?

He was just one bloke in a long line of autonomists with the agenda mentioned by you- unification with Bulgaria when the circumstances allow it.

[Romanion]

The Hungarians in Romania always ask for autonomy, the government knows what that means and they always say no :D

[Petros Houhoulis]

Who IS Cento? Currently... Nobody. He died half a century ago.


I think he is probably one of the few pure Macedonists who felt no affinity with Bulgaria. Unless, I am wrong, and you have a source or two showing how Bulgarian he was, and previously felt affinity with Bulgaria as well?

The Bulgarians claim him their own sometimes, but I have yet to see hard evidence... Only hearsay.

[Crn Volk]

He was just one bloke in a long line of autonomists with the agenda mentioned by you- unification with Bulgaria when the circumstances allow it.

He fought against the 'unification' in 1941....why would he support another Bulgarian occupation in the future?? your propaganda doesn't make sense...

[Romanion]

After doing some research on this guy, I think it was him who deserves the credit for the original Idea of a ethnic Macedonian nationality. He codified the language and set up school in Yugoslavia to teach a seperate "macedonian" language and this instigated the start of people identifying as Macedonians. Interesting stuff. He also advocated a seperate and whole Macedonia and even went to the extent for when the Germans invaded Yugoslavia, he tried to convice Belgrade that the Skopian contigent should invade Greece and not help defend the country! He was born in Ottoman Macedonia so he must of witnessed teh Balkan wars as a child. Some more irony here. Cento and the communists under Kolisevski fought politically, but they both wanted a seperate Macedonian nation. The biggest threat to Centos Ideas came from a group called "Greater Bulgarian Chauvinism" and the more violent "International Macedonian Revolutionary Movement" (IMRO) who both identified themselves as Bulgarians and was against Cento's "Macedonism"

Book: State-Society Relation in Yugoslavia 1945-1992


I guess the Tito claims to start it was wrong afterall :D

[Crn Volk]

After doing some research on this guy, I think it was him who deserves the credit for the original Idea of a ethnic Macedonian nationality. He codified the language and set up school in Yugoslavia to teach a seperate "macedonian" language and this instigated the start of people identifying as Macedonians. Interesting stuff. He also advocated a seperate and whole Macedonia and even went to the extent for when the Germans invaded Yugoslavia, he tried to convice Belgrade that the Skopian contigent should invade Greece and not help defend the country! He was born in Ottoman Macedonia so he must of witnessed teh Balkan wars as a child. Some more irony here. Cento and the communists under Kolisevski fought politically, but they both wanted a seperate Macedonian nation. The biggest threat to Centos Ideas came from a group called "Greater Bulgarian Chauvinism" and the more violent "International Macedonian Revolutionary Movement" (IMRO) who both identified themselves as Bulgarians and was against Cento's "Macedonism"

Book: State-Society Relation in Yugoslavia 1945-1992


I guess the Tito claims to start it was wrong afterall :D

The birth of 'Macedonism' began much earlier than Cento or Tito. Also VMRO(IMRO) had different factions, as it still does. IMRO (United) for example supported a separate Macedonia nation, state and people. IMRO-DPMNE is the ruling party in Macedonia today and follows this stance. IMRO-BND in Bulgaria however maintains Macedonians are Bulgarians.

[Crn Volk]

Read some more on Cento;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metodija_Andonov-%C4%8Cento

http://www.maticanaiselenici.com/en/?page=read_news&id=1725&PHPSESSID=418facd8814c2a243262e30af9f73183

Statue in Skopje

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/08/Cento_Monument_in_Skopje.JPG/220px-Cento_Monument_in_Skopje.JPG

[пустиняк]

He fought against the 'unification' in 1941....why would he support another Bulgarian occupation in the future?? your propaganda doesn't make sense...

:lol00002:

[poiuytrewq0987]

:lol00002:

Typical Bulgar retard denying historical facts. Let me guess you even deny you have a dick?

[пустиняк]

Typical Bulgar retard denying historical facts. Let me guess you even deny you have a dick?

Yeah but your mum doesn't deny it :thumb001:

[poiuytrewq0987]

Yeah but your mum doesn't deny it :thumb001:

let me guess you said that because you actually have a smelly clam infested with all kinds of STDs.

It's all right, I'm sure there's a clinic down the street to help you keep going brah.

[пустиняк]

let me guess you said that because you actually have a smelly clam infested with all kinds of STDs.

It's all right, I'm sure there's a clinic down the street to help you keep going brah.

Clinic here noway :eek:

that's all I see down the street
http://travel.mongabay.com/china/600/china_106-7554.JPG

[poiuytrewq0987]

Clinic here noway :eek:

that's all I see down the street
http://travel.mongabay.com/china/600/china_106-7554.JPG

that's awesome, maybe you make some of that healing milk from teh shepe?

[Trun]

Who IS Cento? Currently... Nobody. He died half a century ago.



The Bulgarians claim him their own sometimes, but I have yet to see hard evidence... Only hearsay.

With every post of you, the suspicious in me that you are another Fyromanian are increasing...

[poiuytrewq0987]

With every post of you, the suspicious in me that you are another Fyromanian are increasing...

Your new ethnic name = Fsrotanian (former slave (sovjet) republic of tataristan).

[Romanion]

The birth of 'Macedonism' began much earlier than Cento or Tito. Also VMRO(IMRO) had different factions, as it still does. IMRO (United) for example supported a separate Macedonia nation, state and people. IMRO-DPMNE is the ruling party in Macedonia today and follows this stance. IMRO-BND in Bulgaria however maintains Macedonians are Bulgarians.

It seems like there were movements before Cento that wanted a seperate Macedonia but it seeemed it was him who started "Macedoniam" as a seperate people from Bulgarians... IMRO wanted a seperate Macedonia but they still thought themselves Bulgarian.

[пустиняк]

Your new ethnic name = Fsrotanian (former slave (sovjet) republic of tataristan).

Kinda very funny :thumb001: I can't stop laugh

[Crn Volk]

It seems like there were movements before Cento that wanted a seperate Macedonia but it seeemed it was him who started "Macedoniam" as a seperate people from Bulgarians... IMRO wanted a seperate Macedonia but they still thought themselves Bulgarian.

Some more on the Macedonian national awakeners and the birth of Macedonism in the 19th century, well before Cento's birth...

http://www.manu.edu.mk/roots/roots.htm

[пустиняк]

Some more on the Macedonian national awakeners and the birth of Macedonism in the 19th century, well before Cento's birth...

http://www.manu.edu.mk/roots/roots.htm

:lol00002: :lol00002: :lol00002:

You guys have mentally problems when claim as Macedonians people like Bratya Miladinovi Grigor Purlichev Kuzman Shapkarev and other mentioned as such in this piece of shit by Macedonian Academy.

Macedonian national identity = Anti Bulgarianism + Serbian money :coffee:

Here is what your great Macedonian patriot Misirkov writes:


"We are Bulgarian more than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria. The population of Skopje is pure Bulgarian. The Serbian not only want to colonize Macedonia with Serbs from other part of Yugoslavia, but they wish to kill our Bulgarian consciousness. They took our right to call ourselves Bulgarians, even Macedonians, they intrude their schools and education, so much false and Jesuit, so much as the study of St. Sava and finally they come to the idea for the special Macedonian nationality, which they discover in South Macedonia." - Krste Misirkov

http://www.macedoniainfo.com/Misirkov1.jpg



http://www.macedoniainfo.com/Misirkov1.jpg

[Romanion]

Some more on the Macedonian national awakeners and the birth of Macedonism in the 19th century, well before Cento's birth...

http://www.manu.edu.mk/roots/roots.htm

You should email them and tell them to put Metodija-Cento on that list, he is missing.

[Crn Volk]

[/B]

:lol00002: :lol00002: :lol00002:

You guys have mentally problems when claim as Macedonians people like Bratya Miladinovi Grigor Purlichev Kuzman Shapkarev and other mentioned as such in this piece of shit by Macedonian Academy.

Macedonian national identity = Anti Bulgarianism + Serbian money :coffee:

Here is what your great Macedonian patriot Misirkov writes:



http://www.macedoniainfo.com/Misirkov1.jpg



http://www.macedoniainfo.com/Misirkov1.jpg

Bulgarism = Denial of Slav and Thracian roots + Belief in the Turkic god Tangra

A quote from Misirkov for you my yellow Han-Chinese friend;


We are obliged to caress our language, because it is ours, just as much as our fatherland.
I am Macedonian and the interests of my fatherland are: not Russia and Austria-Hungary are enemies of Macedonia, but Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia

[пустиняк]

Bulgarism = Denial of Slav and Thracian roots + Belief in the Turkic god Tangra

A quote from Misirkov for you my yellow Han-Chinese friend;


We are obliged to caress our language, because it is ours, just as much as our fatherland.
I am Macedonian and the interests of my fatherland are: not Russia and Austria-Hungary are enemies of Macedonia, but Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia

Lol Better read again the whole biography of Krustyo Misirkov and think again was this the most important FYROMian for 20th century

And believe me to call me yellow Han-Chinese is ten times less offensive than Fyromistanian :thumb001:

[Crn Volk]

Lol Better read again the whole biography of Krustyo Misirkov and think again was this the most important FYROMian for 20th century

And believe me to call me yellow Han-Chinese is ten times less offensive than Fyromistanian :thumb001:

That's good.Be proud of your Mongol heritage and worship Tangra

[Romanion]

That's good.Be proud of your Mongol heritage and worship Tangra

Insults doesn't make you more Macedonian. Grow up.

[Crn Volk]

Insults doesn't make you more Macedonian. Grow up.

The same applies to you. Each thread about Macedonia contains insults about Macedonians and you say nothing about this? C'mon spare me the bullshit

[Romanion]

The same applies to you. Each thread about Macedonia contains insults about Macedonians and you say nothing about this? C'mon spare me the bullshit

Where have I insulted you? I havn't. I know what happened in Macedonia over the years, and in a way it is a tragedy, but lying doesn't make it better.

[Crn Volk]

Where have I insulted you? I havn't. I know what happened in Macedonia over the years, and in a way it is a tragedy, but lying doesn't make it better.

Apologies if you haven't, but your moderation is lost amongst all the 'fyromian', 'skopjan', 'slavo-gypsies' etc. tags we get here.

[Romanion]

Apologies if you haven't, but your moderation is lost amongst all the 'fyromian', 'skopjan', 'slavo-gypsies' etc. tags we get here.

Don't respond to people if they call you those names, or just shrugg it off and continue the conversation formally, they only look bad.

Anyways, there were ideas about a Macedonian people from the slavs of Macedonia for a while, but these were ideas. There average slavophone in Macedonia, even before the balkan war, only reffered to themselves in a religious manner; Exarchate or Patriarch.

Its called nation building, every chirstian nation in the balkan went through it, "Macedonism just came very very late", 1940's. By that time the Region of Macedonia had already been divided, so in a way, this United Macedonia irredentist policy is similar to the Greek Megali Idea, an idea to reclaim lost territory in a Macedonian perspective.

You don't want to be called Bulgarian, good for you. But to accept the propaganda that Macedonians have an unbroken continuation from antiquity and the kingdom of Macedon is delusional.

[Crn Volk]

Don't respond to people if they call you those names, or just shrugg it off and continue the conversation formally, they only look bad.

Anyways, there were ideas about a Macedonian people from the slavs of Macedonia for a while, but these were ideas. There average slavophone in Macedonia, even before the balkan war, only reffered to themselves in a religious manner; Exarchate or Patriarch.

Its called nation building, every chirstian nation in the balkan went through it, "Macedonism just came very very late", 1940's. By that time the Region of Macedonia had already been divided, so in a way, this United Macedonia irredentist policy is similar to the Greek Megali Idea, an idea to reclaim lost territory in a Macedonian perspective.

You don't want to be called Bulgarian, good for you. But to accept the propaganda that Macedonians have an unbroken continuation from antiquity and the kingdom of Macedon is delusional.

These are mainly Macedonian nationalists that support this view. I tend to support the view of the Macedonian Academy of Arts & Sciences, aswell as many other (non-Macedonian) scholars and historians, that state that today's ethnic Macedonians are a product of the mixing of the Slavic settlers of the 6th century with the native Paleo-Balkan population inhabiting Macedonia at that time. Our Slavic language reflects this, as does our largely Byzantine culture. We also have some Pagan Slavic customs we still follow, such as Kolede, and some non-Slavic Paleo-Balkan customs such as the Oro we dance. I agree the Macedonian 'national awakening' came later than that of our neighbours, but it was well before WW2. It only crystalised after WW2 when we obtained our our state - S.R Macedonia, in the SFRJ.

[Romanion]

These are mainly Macedonian nationalists that support this view. I tend to support the view of the Macedonian Academy of Arts & Sciences, aswell as many other (non-Macedonian) scholars and historians, that state that today's ethnic Macedonians are a product of the mixing of the Slavic settlers of the 6th century with the native Paleo-Balkan population inhabiting Macedonia at that time. Our Slavic language reflects this, as does our largely Byzantine culture. We also have some Pagan Slavic customs we still follow, such as Kolede, and some non-Slavic Paleo-Balkan customs such as the Oro we dance. I agree the Macedonian 'national awakening' came later than that of our neighbours, but it was well before WW2. It only crystalised after WW2 when we obtained our our state - S.R Macedonia, in the SFRJ.

OK, in your view, when was the approx date that the people, not just individuals, started calling themselves Macedonians, because from what I learned from the other topic on Metodija-Cento, it was with him and the schools he set up.

[Crn Volk]

OK, in your view, when was the approx date that the people, not just individuals, started calling themselves Macedonians, because from what I learned from the other topic on Metodija-Cento, it was with him and the schools he set up.

It's hard to say when, but we have written evidence for example of early Macedonian migration to the US, and Macedonians identifying as such in the early 1900's. There is also evidence of Macedonian pecalbari (seasonal workers) travelling to Romania in the 19th century and identifying as Macedonians. Russians have also recorded Macedonians as early as the 17th century, as have the Austrians. So I would say that Macedonians have identified as Makedonci/Makedontsi for quite some time. As for the Macedonian language however, it was only codified after WW2.

[пустиняк]

That's good.Be proud of your Mongol heritage and worship Tangra

It's not bad to look at the way Byzantines depicted ancient Bulgarians and then to talk about Mongols :coffee:

http://media.snimka.bg/images/004772483-big.jpg

Also for religion of ancient Bulgarians you can read what Theophilactys of Ohrid says.

And for mods: You can see in this thread and other similar to this who offend Macedonians :thumb001:

[Crn Volk]

It's not bad to look at the way Byzantines depicted ancient Bulgarians and then to talk about Mongols :coffee:

http://media.snimka.bg/images/004772483-big.jpg

Also for religion of ancient Bulgarians you can read what Theophilactys of Ohrid says.

And for mods: You can see in this thread and other similar to this who offend Macedonians :thumb001:

It's not bad to look at the way the Bulgarian state shows the Bulgars. Look at this reconstruction of Khan Krum...

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/5535/bugariwl9.jpg

What's wrong, asking for help from the Mods? Why, you can't handle the truth? BTW, the Byzantines described the Bulgars as filthy people dwelling in yurts. I'll find the quotes and post them for you if you like. They're in Vassil Karloukovski's site.

[morski]

It's not bad to look at the way the Bulgarian state shows the Bulgars. Look at this reconstruction of Khan Krum...

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/5535/bugariwl9.jpg

What's wrong, asking for help from the Mods? Why, you can't handle the truth? BTW, the Byzantines described the Bulgars as filthy people dwelling in yurts. I'll find the quotes and post them for you if you like. They're in Vassil Karloukovski's site.

It's high time you learn the difference between Bulgars and Bulgarians.:fponder:

[Crn Volk]

It's high time you learn the difference between Bulgars and Bulgarians.:fponder:

I've heard from your own nationalists that the Bulgars are the dominant element in your current DNA, and that the previous communist assertion that Slavs made up most of your DNA was false propaganda. They also down play the Thracian element, saying it was wiped out by the invading tribes. What are your views on this?

[morski]

I've heard from your own nationalists that the Bulgars are the dominant element in your current DNA, and that the previous communist assertion that Slavs made up most of your DNA was false propaganda. They also down play the Thracian element, saying it was wiped out by the invading tribes. What are your views on this?

I can't be sure, but I'd reckon it's the native Balkan element that is dominant and next the North-East influence that came with the Slavs and Bulgars.:shrug:

[Trun]

I've heard from your own nationalists that the Bulgars are the dominant element in your current DNA, and that the previous communist assertion that Slavs made up most of your DNA was false propaganda. They also down play the Thracian element, saying it was wiped out by the invading tribes. What are your views on this?

My views are that you should resurrect some ancient Bulgarians, ancient Slavs and ancient Thracians, take samples from them and then conduct a genetic study :D

But beware, I have heard all of them were badass warriors able to stop even Alexander the Greatovski Macedonian army and their epic trainers :laugh: So resurrection is not recommended :lol:


I can't be sure, but I'd reckon it's the native Balkan element that is dominant and next the North-East influence that came with the Slavs and Bulgars.:shrug:

The highest components are Baltic and Mediterranean, followed by Caucasian. Others are minor.
This shows nothing, we can't conclude Slavs=Baltic, Thracians=Mediterranean and ancient Bulgarians=Caucasian.

[пустиняк]

It's not bad to look at the way the Bulgarian state shows the Bulgars. Look at this reconstruction of Khan Krum...

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/5535/bugariwl9.jpg

What's wrong, asking for help from the Mods? Why, you can't handle the truth? BTW, the Byzantines described the Bulgars as filthy people dwelling in yurts. I'll find the quotes and post them for you if you like. They're in Vassil Karloukovski's site.

Find them yeah ;D

About mods I'm not asking for help lol just you citizens of FYROM always cry and you are always victims of hate from neighbour countries

[Vojnik]

Krste Petkov Misirkov. Quotes that make it clear that he considered himself Macedonian and against Bulgars, Serbs and Greeks who all tried to impose their own national interests onto the Macedonian People.

On Macedonian Matters, Krste Misirkov, 1903.


I am a Macedonian and this is how I see the position of my country: it is not Russia or Austria-Hungary that are the enemies of Macedonia, but Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia. Our country can be saved from ruin only by struggling fiercely against these states......


Oh, Macedonians! It is time we realized that the greatest demon Macedonia must battle against is none other than Bulgaria; and this is why we must keep our interests apart from those of Bulgaria. Common sense demands it.......


For the Bulgarian name, which has been endowed upon us by the Exarchate, we have taken over and it’s not up to me to try and find out whether some evil Bulgarian demon is responsible for all the evil the Bulgarians have brought upon us, the Macedonians......


They consider Macedonia to be Bulgarian in the ethnographic sense but find it unnecessary to waste their energy on getting to know the country better; as a result they know nothing about it, about its history, geography and ethnography........


We did indeed call ourselves "Bulgarians" and "Christians" in the national sense; but why this was so, and whether it really had to be so, we did not very much care to ask........


Self-determination of Macedonians, Krste Misirkov, 1925.


We will fight with Greeks because they are our only historic and age old enemies. Our complete Macedonian national history is full with fights against Greeks. There is no fight with Bulgarians and Serbs recorded in the Macedonian history. Bulgarians and Serbs have respected the national rights of the Macedonians in the middle ages, and it was only Greeks that were destroying our national spirit and were de-nationalizing us.......

And there is so much more.

[mymy]

We can't know for sure in how much percent some tribes participated in creating Bulgarian nation, or identify them with some of those tribe. Today they are compact nation with respectful history and that's all what we can be sure about. Posting the pic of Khan Krum doesn't say anything, because if you look at them, they don't really look that different than Serbs, or Macedonians... or Romanians... They are Europeans without doubt, same like other countries i mentioned.
Btw, this doesn't have to do anything with Macedonians, i respect all.

[пустиняк]

.....

[пустиняк]

I can show you a lot of quotes where he clearly said that he is Bulgarian. Better don't rely very much on Krustyo he was elected a member of the local parliament Sfatul Ţării (Bessarabia) as a representative of the Bulgarian minority also he was buried in the graveyards in Sofia with the financial support of 5000 levs from the Bulgarian Ministry of Education, as an honoured educator. About his work За Македонцките работи is debatable whether he wrote it. And if he was so dangerous for Bulgarian cause in Macedonia he would be killed so I stick on that he wrote this Macedonian things only to get closer to Serbian political circles and he had the support of Bulgarian government. Believe me whether no one took him serious or he had the support of Bulgarian country otherwise he would be removed

[пустиняк]

Btw here is picture of Kan Krum from Byzantine author John Skylytzes

The guy on the left with the crown

http://doktora757.blog.bg/photos/91603/original/chasha_cherep_image.jpg

[morski]

That's from prof. Rasho Rashev(RIP), an archaeologist who studied Pliska from the mid 70s until his death:


...As we have shown this possibility was being considered before, but the Turkification of this population is widely and unconditionally accepted, but there are actually no direct data supporting it. In the period VI-VII c. in the steppes North of the Black Sea basin this population had a prolonged contact with another, Northern by its origin, population that in contrast burned its dead and naturally spoke a different language.These contacts continued in the next several centuries and the total disappearance of the Iranic language shows that Slavic prevailed. This enables us to make the assumpiton that Slavic was dominant even before the disintegration of the Penkovka culture. The mixed population most probably speaking Slavic was prepared for its expansion in the South towards the lower Danube as shown by the penkovka ceramics found in numerous early Byzantine fortresses. Forced to abandon their settlements around Dnieper en masse short afterwards, probably as a result of Khazar expansion, they were more than happy to place themselves in service of Asparukh's band, seeing in it a guarantee for their own security. Asparukh may has brought a lot more Indo-Europeans than Turks and because of this the proper Turks were forced to quickly forget their own language. The Turkic tradition in its spiritual forms mostly as well as military-administrative structures, names and titles was preserved among the ruling classes, who settled mainly the Pliska area. The Mass presence of Slavic and Slavicised Iranic population brought by the Bulgars can more convincingly explain some widely known but poorly interpreted facts from the early history of the Bulgarian culture:

1. The widespread Slavic toponymy of the central area of the Bulgarian state.
2. The Slavic names of the capital cities Pliska and Preslav.
3. The negligible Turkic relics in Bulgarian language.
4. The non-conflicting biritualism of the Bulgarian funeral rite.
5. The quick consolidation of the Bulgarian volk, which was complete long before 865 and whom the Christianization merely legitimized.

In this light the question of the origin of the Bulgars acquires new possibilities for shattering the old stereotypes, which were forced on our historiography in the interbellum period and some of them are still alive today.

The original text:

...Както показахме, частично тази възможност е била допускана и досега, но тюркизацията на това население се приема за безусловна, а за нея всъщност липсват директни данни. През VI-VII в. в Северното Причерноморие това население много преди идването си е имало продължителни контакти с друго, северно по произход население, което за разлика от него изгаря своите мъртъвци и естествено говори друг език. Тези контакти са продължили и през следващите столетия и повсеместното изчезване на иранския език показва, че е надделял славянският. Това дава основания да се допуска налагането на славянския още в периода преди разпадането на пенковската култура. Смесеното население, говорещо най-вероятно славянски език, е било подготвено за експанзията си на югозапад към долното течение на Дунав, както показват изолираните находища на пенковска керамика в редица ранновизантийски крепости [32]. Заставено да напусни малко по-кьсно масово поселенията си в Поднепровието най-вероятно в резултат ог експанзията на хазарите, то е било удовлетворено от възможността да се постави под контрола на Аспаруховата дружина, съзирайки в нея гаранции за собствената си сигурност. Аспарух може би е довел (или увлякъл след себе си) много повече индоевропсйци, отколкото тюрки и поради това попадналите в тази среда същински тюрки са сили принудени бързо да забравят родния си език. Тюркската традиция главно в своите духовни форми, административно-военни структури, имена и титли се е запазила сред управляващата върхушка, която ще е населявала предимно Плисковското поле. Масовото присъствие на собствено славянско и славянизирано иранско население по-убедително може да обясни някои широко известни, но неубедително тълкувани факти от ранната история на българската култура:
1. Повсеместната славянска топонимия в централната област на българската държава.
2. Славянските имена на столиците Плиска и Преслав.
3. Незначителните тюркски остатъци в българския език.
4. Безконфликтната биритуалност на българския погребален обред от VIII-IX в.
5. Бързата консолидация на българската народност, която е била налице далеч преди 865 г. и която официалното приемане на християнството само формално узаконява.

Погледнат от подобен ъгъл, въпросът за произхода на прабългарите придобива нови възможности за преодоляване на стереотипите, които в нашата историческа наука са наложени още в периода между двете световни войни и някои от тях са още живи.


Basically it doesn't matter that much who and what the Bulgars were. Yes they were probably a Turkic tribe, but they were just several extended families strong at best. The rest of the population they brought here to form Danube Bulgaria were mostly Slavs and Slavicised Iranics.

[пустиняк]

Slavicised Iranics.

Do you mean remains of Scytho-Sarmatians in modern day Ukraine ?

[morski]

Do you mean remains of Scytho-Sarmatians in modern day Ukraine ?

Yes. The point of Rashev is that the people who founded the First Bulgarian Empire were mostly Antes Slavs and Slavicised Scytho-Sarmatians led by a small Turkic Bulgars elite.

[morski]

In the same manner in which Kuber's Bulgars led from Panonia into MAcedonia a mixed people- Slavs, Avars and Byzantine hostages taken to Panonia in earlier Avar raids.

[пустиняк]

Actually is debatable whether this elite was entirely Turkic or just has some Turkic elements.

[morski]

Actually is debatable whether this elite was entirely Turkic or just has some Turkic elements.

Anyway, their lingua franca at the time of the conquest was Slavic. That's my personal belief. That's why the standard Old Church Slavonic aka Old Bulgarian was so easily adopted by state and population a bit later.

[Petros Houhoulis]

These are mainly Macedonian nationalists that support this view. I tend to support the view of the Macedonian Academy of Arts & Sciences, aswell as many other (non-Macedonian) scholars and historians, that state that today's ethnic Macedonians are a product of the mixing of the Slavic settlers of the 6th century with the native Paleo-Balkan population inhabiting Macedonia at that time. Our Slavic language reflects this, as does our largely Byzantine culture. We also have some Pagan Slavic customs we still follow, such as Kolede, and some non-Slavic Paleo-Balkan customs such as the Oro we dance. I agree the Macedonian 'national awakening' came later than that of our neighbours, but it was well before WW2. It only crystalised after WW2 when we obtained our our state - S.R Macedonia, in the SFRJ.

Perhaps you should be aware that the Paleo-Balkan population inhabiting your country back then was called "Paeonians" and "Dardanians" not to mention the "Triballians", and you should also be aware that Macedonia itself has been lying further south into modern Greek territory?

You seem to have an avesrion not only towards your Slavic past ("We are not Slavs" nonsense) but also towards your real Paleo-Balkan past (Paeonians, Dardanians, Triballians e.t.c.)

In fact you are much like Dusan or good ole Krste Petkov Misirkov: You have no idea of who you really are and you change identities like T-shirts...

[Crn Volk]

Perhaps you should be aware that the Paleo-Balkan population inhabiting your country back then was called "Paeonians" and "Dardanians" not to mention the "Triballians", and you should also be aware that Macedonia itself has been lying further south into modern Greek territory?

You seem to have an avesrion not only towards your Slavic past ("We are not Slavs" nonsense) but also towards your real Paleo-Balkan past (Paeonians, Dardanians, Triballians e.t.c.)

In fact you are much like Dusan or good ole Krste Petkov Misirkov: You have no idea of who you really are and you change identities like T-shirts...

Very funny Petros. I am from the Pelagonia region of R.Macedonia, not far from Heraklea Lyncestis, which was built by King Philip II of Macedon. You seem to deny facts and evidence showing ancient Macedonian habitation on the territory of R. Macedonia. BTW, can you tell me are you Vlach, Slav or Arvanite? Or something else, since the majority of today's Greeks are not related to ancient Greeks....:coffee:

[Petros Houhoulis]

Very funny Petros. I am from the Pelagonia region of R.Macedonia, not far from Heraklea Lyncestis, which was built by King Philip II of Macedon. You seem to deny facts and evidence showing ancient Macedonian habitation on the territory of R. Macedonia. BTW, can you tell me are you Vlach, Slav or Arvanite? Or something else, since the majority of today's Greeks are not related to ancient Greeks....

So, a 5% of Ancient Macedonia was located in your modern country, while the 95% of it was either located in Ancient Paeonia or Ancient Dardania:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Macedonian_Kingdom.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_macedonia#Ancient_history_of_the_terri tory


In antiquity, most of what is now the Republic of Macedonia was inhabited by Paeonians, a Thracian people,[18] whilst the northwest was inhabited by the Dardani and the southwest by tribes known historically as the Enchelae, Pelagones and Lyncestae; the latter two are generally regarded as Molossian or Upper Macedonian tribes, whilst the former two are considered Illyrian.[19][20][21][22][23][24]
After the early victories of Philip II of Macedon in 356 BC, he absorbed[25] the regions of Upper Macedonia into the Kingdom of Macedon, including Lynkestis, Pelagonia, and the southern part of Paeonia (Deuriopus), which now lie within the Republic of Macedonia.[26] Philip did not make the people of Upper Macedonia subject but instead made them equal to the Macedonians of Lower Macedonia.[25] Philip's son Alexander the Great conquered the remainder of the region, reaching as far north as the Danube, and incorporated it in his empire. The Romans established the Province of Macedonia in 146 BC. By the time of Diocletian, the province had been subdivided between Macedonia Prima and Macedonia Salutaris; most of country's modern boundaries fell within the latter, with the city of Stobi as the capital of Macedonia Salutaris.[27] Cities to the extreme north such as Scupi fell within the Province of Moesia.[28] Whilst Greek remained the dominant language in the south, Latin made significant inroads in Macedonia.

In other words, apart from the southernmost 5%, the rest of your country was (supposedly) part of the Macedonian empire, the same way Egypt was part of the Macedonian empire (no citizenship for you fellas!) In reality Paeonia was inhabited by some allied and some enemy tribes, and Alexanders' campaigns only helped his allies to consolidate their power against his enemies. Paeonia was not incorporated into the Macedonian empire until Phillip V:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonia_(kingdom)#Decline


In 280 BC the Gallic invaders under Brennus ravaged the land of the Paeonians, who, being further hard pressed by the Dardani, had no alternative but to join the Macedonians. Despite their combined efforts, however, the Paeonians and Macedonians were defeated. Paeonia consolidated again but in 217 BC the Macedonian king Philip V of Macedon (220-179 BC), the son of Demetrius II, succeeded in uniting and incorporating into his empire the separate regions of Dassaretia and Paeonia. A mere 70 years later (in 168 BC), Roman legions conquered Macedon in turn. Paeonia around the Axios formed the second and third districts respectively of the newly constituted Roman province of Macedonia (Livy xiv. 29). Centuries later under Diocletian, Paeonia and Pelagonia formed a province called Macedonia Secunda or Macedonia Salutaris, belonging to the Praetorian prefecture of Illyricum. However, by 400 AD the Paeonians, had lost their identity, and the term Paeonia had become a mere geographic identifier.

So, except for the far south, your country was within Macedonia only for 70 years (much less than Egypt or the bulk of the Seleukid empire) before the Romans arrrived. In any case, the dominant language was Greek all over Macedonia. There was a considerable Illyrian element though, 5~10% of the Ancient Macedonian names had Illyrian roots. None of them had Slavic roots...

I am no Vlach, Slav or Arvanite (except for being 1/8 or 1/16 Bulgarian) and if you are Macedonian, that would be only if you are a Macedonian traitor.

Provide evidence that the majority of todays' Greeks are not related to Ancient Greeks. Remember that the modern Greeks are majority J2 at 23% and secondary we are E1b1b at 21%:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

J2 is defined as "Greco-Anatolian, Mesopotamian, Caucasian". All of these are much closer to Greece than Albania, and certainly closer to Greek origins than Slavic or Romanian ones.

E1b1b is in turn defined as "North African, Near Eastern, Balkanic". All of these are also closer to Greece than Albania and all Slavic states combined and Romania as well.

R1a, the Pseudo-Slavic gene is coming just 4th in Greece at 11.5%, although in North Greece is is second at 18%. Don't jump, it was like that since the antiquity rather than because of some Slavic invasions. The truly Slavic gene is the I2 and it is only 9.5% all over Greece, but comes third in North Greece at 16% Much of it could also predate the Slavic invasions of the Middle Ages.

Conclusion? Greece was diverse since the antiquity. The Slavic invasions took place, just as the Arvanite and Vlach refugees followed later, but they did not have a major impact upon the indigenous population. The majority of the Ancient Greeks are related to the Ancient Greeks, although the Ancient Greeks were a colorful lot coming from many different directions (J1, J2 from Asia, E1b1b from Africa, R1a & R1b from Europe, even some indigenous Balkan genes like I2) long before there was an establishment of an Ancient Greek culture.

The Greek language itself was predominantly determined from the Centum IndoEuropean R1b tribes.

Alright?

[Onur]

Basically it doesn't matter that much who and what the Bulgars were. Yes they were probably a Turkic tribe, but they were just several extended families strong at best. The rest of the population they brought here to form Danube Bulgaria were mostly Slavs and Slavicised Iranics.

Yes. The point of Rashev is that the people who founded the First Bulgarian Empire were mostly Antes Slavs and Slavicised Scytho-Sarmatians led by a small Turkic Bulgars elite.
This is just a false assumption too. Rashev says this himself that the so-called turkification of aryan central Asians theory has no proof. The aryan central Asia`s turkifiction theory is a product of late 19th century politics just as today`s nationalist Bulgarians searching their mythical Iranian ancestors in Afghan, Pamir mountains. It`s all about politics;

As we have shown this possibility was being considered before, but the Turkification of this population is widely and unconditionally accepted, but there are actually no direct data supporting it.


You say that Turks was only few families but the rest was slavs. This is also another false assumption due to current Bulgarian politics. There is not even single Persian/Iranian text piece left from these people. All the early archeological remains has been written by using runic script and in common Turkic language akin to the other Turks of Eurasia. If early Bulgar people would be consisted of sedentary mountain people of slavs, then there would be no Bulgaria today because these slavs without any warfare skills couldn't possibly defy ~100.000 strong Byzantine armies, defeat them and create Bulgar empire. If that would be the case, then Byzantines would eradicate them easily during Asparukh`s era.

If we take account of successful Bulgar campaigns against Byzantines, then there should have been at least ~80.000 strong horse archer army of Turks and add their families too, because their women were usually traveling with their men, sometimes joining battles too. If they would be less than ~80.000 strong, then Byzantines would kill them all and there would be no Bulgaria today.

These irregular Antes slavs you mention, could be no match to Byzantine armies. This theory doesn't fit to the historical facts.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Metodija apparently had a Bulgarian consciousness according to a book "Europe since 1945: An Encyclopedia". I just wonder if any of it is verifiable.

http://s15.postimage.org/z0dzt2ft5/bm4.png

http://books.google.com/books?id=hafLHZgZtt4C&pg=PA808&dq=Macedonia+WWII+bulgarian+++IMRO&sig=4Ewh_0ZI-OnSPTb3SaNmOHDOv7M#v=onepage&q=cento&f=false

[Crn Volk]

Metodija apparently had a Bulgarian consciousness according to a book "Europe since 1945: An Encyclopedia". I just wonder if any of it is verifiable.

http://s15.postimage.org/z0dzt2ft5/bm4.png

http://books.google.com/books?id=hafLHZgZtt4C&pg=PA808&dq=Macedonia+WWII+bulgarian+++IMRO&sig=4Ewh_0ZI-OnSPTb3SaNmOHDOv7M#v=onepage&q=cento&f=false

The Bulgarian lust for all things Macedonian is insatiable. Now you are claiming Cento too?

Here's some more on him;


"In 1939, he was imprisoned at Velika Kikinda for co-organizing the Ilinden Demonstrations in Prilep. The following year, he imposed the use of the Macedonian language in school lectures and was therefore imprisoned at Bajina Bašta and sentenced to death by the government of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia for advocating the use of a language other than Serbo-Croatian. On April 15, 1941, he was presented to a firing squad, but was released just prior to being shot.

During the Bulgarian occupation of Vardar Macedonia, Čento received an invitation to collaborate with the Bulgarian occupational authorities but refused, favoring the achievement of liberating Macedonia."

Why would he impose the use of the Macedonian language if he was Bulgarian? Why would he then proceed to fight the Bulgarians?

[Midori]

I'm not really fond of him since he was anti-Yugoslavia, but he wasn't a bugarash for sure. He wanted an independent Macedonia.

[Crn Volk]

I'm not really fond of him since he was anti-Yugoslavia, but he wasn't a bugarash for sure. He wanted an independent Macedonia.

I am fond of him because he wanted an independent Macedonia :)

[poiuytrewq0987]

The Bulgarian lust for all things Macedonian is insatiable. Now you are claiming Cento too?

Here's some more on him;

Bulgarian lust? I am Macedonian. :rolleyes: I am just discussing history if you can't realize that then... :coffee:


Why would he impose the use of the Macedonian language if he was Bulgarian? Why would he then proceed to fight the Bulgarians?

He was just another Macedonian autonomist in a long line of Macedonian autonomists.

Communists only changed the idea that autonomous Macedonia = ethnic Macedonian state. It IS a fact that no Macedonian identity existed for centuries until the 19th century when some played with the idea that all peoples who lived in Macedonia were ethnic Macedonians no matter what. Krste Misirkov for one. Novak Stoyankovic, however, used this for a more insidious purpose, supporting Macedonism as a precursor for Serbianization of all Slavs in Macedonia who didn't identify as Serbian.

Our "Paleo-Balkan" mix, it is true that we are partially descended from peoples who lived in the area before the Slavs came and mixed with them. However, there is no continunity to speak of. There's some theories about Thracians being actual Slavs, and Thracian being only a name Herodotus gave Slavs but that's it. Even Albanians can't claim continuity to ancient Illyrians, who for all we know probably never had a single, unified Illyrian identity.

If there was an actual continuity of ancient Macedonians to today's Macedonians then sure we could claim to be Macedonians. But we are only regional Macedonians, not ethnic Macedonians because there is no continuity of history from ancient Macedonia to today's Macedonia with a people consistently identifying as Macedonian beyond regional definitions.

Our medieval history (http://historymedren.about.com/library/atlas/natmapeurse1000.htm), however, is much stronger than this fabrication (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/) we stick to like flies to a lamp.


I'm not really fond of him since he was anti-Yugoslavia, but he wasn't a bugarash for sure. He wanted an independent Macedonia.

Oh no, Cento was against your precious Serbopian and later communist utopia. :cry2 I can't even understand how you can be pro-Yugoserv when the first incarnation of it tried to wipe us from the face of earth via aggressive Serbianization. Thanks Hitler, for destroying Yugoslavia!

[Crn Volk]

Bulgarian lust? I am Macedonian. :rolleyes: I am just discussing history if you can't realize that then... :coffee:



He was just another Macedonian autonomist in a long line of Macedonian autonomists.

Communists only changed the idea that autonomous Macedonia = ethnic Macedonian state. It IS a fact that no Macedonian identity existed for centuries until the 19th century when some played with the idea that all peoples who lived in Macedonia were ethnic Macedonians no matter what. Krste Misirkov for one. Novak Stoyankovic, however, used this for a more insidious purpose, supporting Macedonism as a precursor for Serbianization of all Slavs in Macedonia who didn't identify as Serbian.

Our "Paleo-Balkan" mix, it is true that we are partially descended from peoples who lived in the area before the Slavs came and mixed with them. However, there is no continunity to speak of. There's some theories about Thracians being actual Slavs, and Thracian being only a name Herodotus gave Slavs but that's it. Even Albanians can't claim continuity to ancient Illyrians, who for all we know probably never had a single, unified Illyrian identity.

If there was an actual continuity of ancient Macedonians to today's Macedonians then sure we could claim to be Macedonians. But we are only regional Macedonians, not ethnic Macedonians because there is no continuity of history from ancient Macedonia to today's Macedonia with a people consistently identifying as Macedonian beyond regional definitions.

Our medieval history (http://historymedren.about.com/library/atlas/natmapeurse1000.htm), however, is much stronger than this fabrication (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/) we stick to like flies to a lamp.



Oh no, Cento was against your precious Serbopian and later communist utopia. :cry2 I can't even understand how you can be pro-Yugoserv when the first incarnation of it tried to wipe us from the face of earth via aggressive Serbianization. Thanks Hitler, for destroying Yugoslavia!

Ama ti ne go razbirvas Makedonskio jazik i zatoa ne gi znaes razlikite megju bugarski i Makedonski. Ne znam sto si, ama ne si Makedonec...

[Midori]

Ama ti ne go razbirvas Makedonskio jazik i zatoa ne gi znaes razlikite megju bugarski i Makedonski.

This. It's like me talking about the difference between say, German and Dutch when both are moonspeak for me :D

[morski]

ama ti ne go razbirvas makedonskio jazik i zatoa ne gi znaes razlikite megju bugarski i makedonski. Ne znam sto si, ama ne si makedonec...

Аз го поразбирвам македонскио язик, да ти кажа, и нема голема разлика с българския, аре у лево!

[poiuytrewq0987]

Ama ti ne go razbirvas Makedonskio jazik i zatoa ne gi znaes razlikite megju bugarski i Makedonski. Ne znam sto si, ama ne si Makedonec...

Oh I know the differences... the primary difference is I don't use Serbisms in Macedonian language introduced during intensive Serbianization campaigns carried out by the likes of Nole and Tito.

[Crn Volk]

oh i know the differences... The primary difference is i don't use serbisms in macedonian language introduced during intensive serbianization campaigns carried out by the likes of nole and tito.

Ама оти не одговараш на Македонски?