Steven Spielberg in Negotiations to do Armenian Genocide Film

[Mercury]

Steven Spielberg and Zaillian collaborated on Schinder's List. Spielberg also produced and directed the movie Munich.

It is hoped that the film will be ready by 2015, in time for the 100th Anniversary of the Armenian Genocide. The date of the beginning of the Armenian Genocide is conventionally held to be April 24, 1915, the day that Ottoman authorities arrested some 250 Armenian intellectuals and community leaders in Constantinople.

The Armenian Genocide has also been called the Armenian Massacres and, by Armenians, the Great Crime. The number of Armenian deaths is generally held to have been between one and one and a half million.

http://www.huliq.com/files/imagecache/article_main/news_article/images/StevenSpielberg.jpg

Turkey continues to deny the existence of the Armenian Genocide ever occurred. Instead, Turkey says that while that during World War I, many Armenians died, the number of Armenian victims has been greatly inflated.

The country continues to face calls to accept the events of that period as genocide. Reportedly, to date, twenty countries have officially recognized the events of the period as genocide. Most historians also accept this view.

Gevorg Gevorgyan, Director of the Armenfilm studio and of the National Film Center in Yerevan said, "By the 100th anniversary of the Armenian Genocide we must show the world a film that would be even more impressive than Mayrik or Ararat. Armenian and foreign actors will play in the film."

http://www.huliq.com/3257/steven-spielberg-negotiations-do-armenian-genocide-film

[purple]

I thought he will continue making movies about the Jewish genocide.

http://www.demotivationalposters.org/image/demotivational-poster/small/0904/jews-jews-jaws-gripherje-demotivational-poster-1238662223.jpg

[Brooklyn Rick]

There gonna work the holohoax in there somehow...

[Siberyak]

This Kike has loosened up since Schindlers list?

[Supreme American]

Sounds a lot like a PR outreach project to the Armenians, especially after their head-butting with fatass Foxman.

[SaxonCeorl]

I hope he does. It would be very big of him to recognize that there have been others genocides throughout history.

I'd also like to see negative pressure placed upon Turkey. Can you imagine if the Germans had the nerve to deny the Jewish genocide the way the Turks do?

[Supreme American]

I hope he does. It would be very big of him to recognize that there have been others genocides throughout history.

I'd also like to see negative pressure placed upon Turkey. Can you imagine if the Germans had the nerve to deny the Jewish genocide the way the Turks do?

Well I question the alleged genocide of the Germans against the Jews, so I guess I have the noive. I absolutely do not believe in the gassings, and I question the extent of the activities of the Einsatzgruppen.

As far as Armenians go, I don't know much about it and don't care either way. Such conflicts are heavily political and the victim side likes to use it for political mileage, as Zionists do with the Jewish experience. For that reason alone, if you ask me, such genocides should be looked at very closely and not taken blindly on face value.

[Supreme American]

I thought he will continue making movies about the Jewish genocide.

He will. Spielberg is very soppy and wears his Jewishness on his sleeve, even while he poisons the Jewish community with his adoption of black children. Keep in mind in his movie Amistad, he carefully only showed rosary-holding Christians as slave owners.

[SaxonCeorl]

But it could take some attention away from the Holocaust if there were some sort of international effort to force Turkey to recognize the Armenian genocide.

[Man of Steel]

I'd watch Schindler's List over The Pianist any day.

[Supreme American]

I'd watch Schindler's List over The Pianist any day.

I'll take Fletch.

[Supreme American]

But it could take some attention away from the Holocaust if there were some sort of international effort to force Turkey to recognize the Armenian genocide.

Only minimally. Armenians don't have the presence or the clout to accomplish what the Holocaust Industry has.

[Man of Steel]

I'll take Fletch.

That is not even a holocaust film. At least pick from the category. There are tons of holocaust films to choose from. ;)

[Supreme American]

That is not even a holocaust film. At least pick from the category. There are tons of holocaust films to choose from. ;)

But they're all bullshit.

[Eldritch]

There gonna work the holohoax in there somehow...

Well, the Armenian genocide took place in the 1910's and 1920's, so ...

On a more general level, I can't believe I'm actually interested in a Spielberg movie. I think this one has every chance of equaling, conceivably even improving upon, Uwe Böll's Auschwitz (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1722426/)!

JuiEnZTqiCg

[Supreme American]

I think this one has every chance of equaling, conceivably even improving upon, Uwe Böll's Auschwitz (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1722426/)!

He was in the film as a gas chamber guard? :rolleyes2:

[PetiteParisienne]

Interesting, especially since Israel is moving toward officially recognising the Armenian genocide.

[Joe McCarthy]

This could be of some benefit, I suppose. I guess it's what Erdogan gets for pissing off the Israelis.

I'm curious though:

1. Will we get to see mean looking Turks shouting in Turkish?

2. Who will be the equivalent of the evil Nazi villain?

3. Will Armenians stop whining after the film is made?

[PetiteParisienne]

This could be of some benefit, I suppose. I guess it's what Erdogan gets for pissing off the Israelis.

I'm curious though:

1. Will we get to see mean looking Turks shouting in Turkish?

2. Who will be the equivalent of the evil Nazi villain?

3. Will Armenians stop whining after the film is made?

I'm acquainted Armenian Christians who are a couple of the gentlest, kindest people I've ever met. They definitely deserve to have their struggle recognised. :)

[RoyBatty]

Spielberg directing a film on the Armenian Holocaust is like having Dubya direct a movie on the Iraqi Holocaust.

I mean, where's the logic in letting a Jew direct a film on a genocide perpetrated by Jews (Young Turks) against Armenians by using dumb Turks & Kurds?

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/young_turks.html

http://www.jewishracism.com/JewishGenocide.htm

[Mosov]

He won't be doing it. Don't know why OP has it that he will.

Remember, the Jewish Holocaust is "unique", no other people suffered like the Jews...

Foreign Minister of Israel:

“Since its establishment, Israel has opposed the application of the term Holocaust to another war or tragedy. The tragedy of the Jewish people during the World War II is beyond comparison with any other tragedy,” said Lieberman.

Disgusting mentality.

[Eldritch]

He was in the film as a gas chamber guard? :rolleyes2:

Yes, as well as himself as a sort of narrator/interviewer.


He won't be doing it. Don't know why OP has it that he will.

...

I'm also rather sceptical of any such film project ever actually happening -- by Spielberg, that is.

And I found it preposterous that (if I understood PP's post right) Israel does not recognise the Armenian genocide atm.

[Joe McCarthy]

I'm acquainted Armenian Christians who are a couple of the gentlest, kindest people I've ever met. They definitely deserve to have their struggle recognised. :)

It may can serve some constructive political purpose but I have a deep loathing of the cult of victimization generally.

[Mercury]

I'm also rather sceptical of any such film project ever actually happening -- by Spielberg, that is.

And I found it preposterous that (if I understood PP's post right) Israel does not recognise the Armenian genocide atm.

Sympathize with Israel's position. Angering yet another Muslim nation is the last thing they want to happen. Especially when relations are tense enough between the Jewish State and the Islamic world. I'm sure the Jews realize all holocausts and genocides need to be eventually be recognized, but is this the right time to do it?

[Armenian Bishop]

I'm also rather sceptical of any such film project ever actually happening -- by Spielberg, that is.

And I found it preposterous that (if I understood PP's post right) Israel does not recognise the Armenian genocide atm.

It's true -- The government of Israel hasn't acknowledged the reality of the Armenian Genocide, or given recognition to it. In fact, Israel has used there lobbies to block the recognition of the Armenian Genocide, by the USA and other countries.

Turkey and Azerbaijan, both enemies of Armenia, have been close allies for Israel. Recently, Turkey has politically offended Israel, and Israel retaliated by threatening to recognize the Armenian Genocide. Also, there has been discussion, in Israel, about teaching it in the schools, but thus far this discussion hasn't materialized, and The Armenian Genocide hasn't yet been included within the Israeli School Curriculum.

[PetiteParisienne]

It may can serve some constructive political purpose but I have a deep loathing of the cult of victimization generally.

I agree that victimisation isn't constructive or beneficial in any way. However, I don't think that acknowledging hardship necessarily enables that.

[Eldritch]

Sympathize with Israel's position. Angering yet another Muslim nation is the last thing they want to happen. Especially when relations are tense enough between the Jewish State and the Islamic world. I'm sure the Jews realize all holocausts and genocides need to be eventually be recognized, but is this the right time to do it?

Well, the Armenian genocide happened before the Jewish one, and the state of Israel probably would not even exist if it wasn't for the so-called Holocaust. And the Islamic World wants Israel gone no matter what they do.

[Mosov]

It may can serve some constructive political purpose but I have a deep loathing of the cult of victimization generally.

It's not a cult of victimisation when you demand a country that killed 1.5 Million of your own in cold blood to apologise for their deeds.

[Supreme American]

Interesting, especially since Israel is moving toward officially recognising the Armenian genocide.

I'd guess that it's about politics and possibly some kind of alliance or trade deal.

[Supreme American]

Yes, as well as himself as a sort of narrator/interviewer.

Too bad there were no extermination gas chambers :(

[AFC_Lad]

This could be of some benefit, I suppose. I guess it's what Erdogan gets for pissing off the Israelis.

I'm curious though:

1. Will we get to see mean looking Turks shouting in Turkish?

2. Who will be the equivalent of the evil Nazi villain?

3. Will Armenians stop whining after the film is made?

I think you have a sly distaste for any people who seem to be pro Russian, i've seen you make comments like this about Serbians and other eastern peoples.

From what i've seen Armenians rarely "whine" about the genocide, they only seek justice for recognition and rightly so.

Why don't you make a sly statement about jews like this.. they go beyond whining, they even claim that 6 million jews perished, which all true scholars know is a largely exaggerated number..

[Nairi]

Steven Spielberg and Zaillian collaborated on Schinder's List.

Steven Ernest Bernard Zaillian[1][2] (born January 30, 1953) is an American screenwriter, director, editor, producer, and founder of Film Rites, a film production company. He won an Academy Award for his screenplay for Schindler's List and he has been nominated for Awakenings, Gangs of New York and Moneyball. The Times called him "the most artful and subtle screenwriter Hollywood has had since Robert Towne."[citation needed]

Zaillian was born in Fresno, California, the son of Jim Zaillian, a radio news reporter. He attended Sonoma State University, graduated from San Francisco State University and lives in Los Angeles.[3] He is of Armenian descent.[4]

http://armeniansworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Steven-Zaillian-_photo-by-Pietro-Coccia1.jpg


Will not hurt if he does something ALSO for his own nation...

[Mosov]

I think you have a sly distaste for any people who seem to be pro Russian, i've seen you make comments like this about Serbians and other eastern peoples.

From what i've seen Armenians rarely "whine" about the genocide, they only seek justice for recognition and rightly so.

Why don't you make a sly statement about jews like this.. they go beyond whining, they even claim that 6 million jews perished, which all true scholars know is a largely exaggerated number..

They've created a monopoly on Genocides and suffering. They even made a whole word to themselves 'Holocaust'.

[Joe McCarthy]

It's not a cult of victimisation when you demand a country that killed 1.5 Million of your own in cold blood to apologise for their deeds.

The Ottoman Empire is gone. So are the people involved in the deed. There's nothing to apologize for, unless you think the old medieval concept of corruption of blood applies to today's Turks.

France might as well apologize to descendants of Huegenots for the Wars of Religion. Fortunately the Du Ponts aren't likely to whine about it for a century if they don't.

[Siberyak]

They've created a monopoly on Genocides and suffering. They even made a whole word to themselves 'Holocaust'.

Exactly, The jews don't want anyone comparing the holocaust with any other genocide event in history.

[AFC_Lad]

The Ottoman Empire is gone. So are the people involved in the deed. There's nothing to apologize for, unless you think the old medieval concept of corruption of blood applies to today's Turks.

France might as well apologize to descendants of Huegenots for the Wars of Religion. Fortunately the Du Ponts aren't likely to whine about it for a century if they don't.

The Ottoman empire is long gone, but Turkey today denies it did such a thing.. thats the difference.

Imagine if Germany today denied a holocaust took place, i'm sure your boner would frantically decline in size.

[Joe McCarthy]

The Ottoman empire is long gone, but Turkey today denies it did such a thing.. thats the difference.

Imagine if Germany today denied a holocaust took place, i'm sure your boner would frantically decline in size.

There is a fair bit of debate about whether Turkey did do such a thing, and in any case the Turks of today aren't responsible for the acts of those now dead (in the case of the French they could plausibly deny any potential claims pertaining to actions against French Calvinists as well, that is if anyone bothered to bring a complaint).

I also fail to see why you think I have affinity for the Jews' shoah business. I do think the Nazis overreacted massively and murderously, but the Holocaust lobby, like the Armenian Genocide lobby, is little other than a political and financial shakedown operation. If anything Jews are doubly guilty as they got this con rolling.

[HamshenaHay]

The Ottoman Empire is gone. So are the people involved in the deed. There's nothing to apologize for, unless you think the old medieval concept of corruption of blood applies to today's Turks.

France might as well apologize to descendants of Huegenots for the Wars of Religion. Fortunately the Du Ponts aren't likely to whine about it for a century if they don't.

Are you serious? Then why did the Germans apologize to the Jews? Or the Australians to the Aboriginals? There are many similar cases. I don't know how much you know about this issue, but I know from first hand that my great grandfather lost his entire family to the massacres. His property, his history, his family everything taken away and today the Turks are not willing to recognize the events even took place. As if 2 million Armenians just vanished from the lands they lived on for as long as humans record history. If the Turks were just unwilling to face up to their own past I would somehow manage to understand it. But that’s not the problem. You see the current Turkish regime is just as complaisant by engaging in active propaganda of denial, paying historians (like the infamous Dr. Justin McCarthy who was found to have received payments from the Turkish government on many occasions), lobbying the American congress (Representative Adam Schiff called Turkey's lobbying "the most intense I've ever seen." http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/17/world/americas/17iht-lobby.4.7932191.html ) or simply blackmailing any government if they even dare to speak of recognizing it.

“The Turkish government has spent millions on Washington lobbying over the past decade, much of it focused on the Armenian genocide issue. The country's current lobbyist, the Gephardt Group, collects about $70,000 a month for lobbying services from the government in Ankara, according to federal disclosure records. Public-relations firm Fleishman-Hillard also has a contract with Turkey worth more than $100,000 a month, records show.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/03/AR2010030303786.html

So no my friend, modern Turks are not passive on this issue at all. They not only deny it themselves they also want others not to recognize it. Even interfering with policy of foreign governments. http://www.thedailystar.net/latest_photo/2012/01/24/2012-01-24__Turkey.jpg

And not even to speak of the horrors a few brave people in Turkey face upon recognizing the Armenian Genocide. From the controversial law (art. 301) which penalizes the acknowledgement of the Armenian genocide as a crime against “Turkishness” (whatever that may be) to the countless assassinations of Christians like the famous Armenian journalist Hrant Dink (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ryWB3jpAbA). Their own intellectuals (like the only Turkish Nobel prize winner Orhan Pamuk) are prosecuted because of writing about the Genocide. Or the members of a Bible publishing firm in Malatya 2007 tortured and murdered by five Turks. Tied hands and feet to chairs, tortured and slit their throats as they videoed their work on their cell phones. Or Father Andrea Santoro 2006. Catholic priest who was murdered in the Santa Maria Church in Trabzon. Shot dead from behind while kneeling in prayer in the church. Neither the killer nor his mother showed any remorse during the trial and said that his deed "was committed in the name of Allah and was a gift to the state and the nation". There are many more examples of Turkish attacks on Armenians and other Christians committed not so long ago. The murderers are still out there, if caught usually receive very mild sentences.The position of the Turkish government enables these people to act as such. In fact the murderer of the Armenian journalist who bravely wrote about the Armenian genocide in public, was hailed by the authorities as a hero. (see the picture where they hold a Turkish flag with him posing on camera)
http://lebarmenian.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/ogun_samast_i_oldurme_planlari_20110113_113914.jpg ?w=479

Besides it’s not only the Armenians that claim Genocide, almost all inhabitants of Anatolia demand recognition. The Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide) commemorate the Genocide on 19 May, the Assyrians on (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_Genocide) 5th of August.

Turkish government has a lot to apologize for!

I’m fine with people not knowing/caring about these event’s it’s not interesting to everyone. But to actively deny the events and continue the same genocidal policies is another level of crime. Only recently the Turkish government threatened to deport Armenians from Turkey (“Turkey threatens to expel 100,000 Armenians” http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8572934.stm ) Even on the cultural level the Turkish government does everything in order to erase the Armenian traces from those lands. Armenian schools are not allowed, the few Armenians that remain there are not permitted to learn their own language, calling someone an “Armenian” is a curse word to them. Armenian ancient constructions are consistently being demolished with dynamite explosions and used as targets during Turkish military training exercises. (In 1974 UNESCO stated that after 1923, out of 913 Armenian historical monuments left in Eastern Turkey, 464 have vanished completely, 252 are in ruins, and 197 are in need of complete repair. http://www.mfa.am/en/cultural-genocide/). They have replaced many ancient Armenian place names and even scientific names of animals are being replaced (“Turkey has said it is changing the names of three animals found on its territory to remove references to Kurdistan or Armenia” http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4328285.stm. )
As if Armenians never existed. Those are all real crimes committed and supported by the Turkish government and most of their people TODAY. This issue is not outdated. We are fighting for our survival not a mere word of apology.

Don’t get me wrong I’m not blaming you for your opinion everyone is entitled to one, but most people don’t know about what’s going on today. They think the Armenians are opening old wounds, but the fact of the matter is, those wounds never closed. The genocide still continues and it’s still a viable danger to the Armenians. Turkey still imposes a blockade on Armenia, supports our enemies, threatens our existence and destroys our cultural and historical heritage. There is a lot Turkey has to apologize for. Unlike the Germans who pose no threat what so ever to Jews, the Turks still do to us. And the Germans have to apologize but the Turks don’t? That’s not right!

Or to quote Gregory Stanton, president of the International Association of Genocide Scholars:

"Denial is the final stage of genocide," "It is a continuing attempt to destroy the victim group psychologically and culturally, to deny its members even the memory of the murders of their relatives. That is what the Turkish government today is doing to Armenians around the world."

[PBachman]

3. Will Armenians stop whining after the film is made?

You know Joe, the rest of comments, well, I don't mind for, but I don't think Armenians are "whining", rather, I believe Turks are the whiners. Furthermore, It was never a Armenian Genocide, rather, it was a Christian Genocide. Finally, the Turkish Christians were very "rebellious" that en mass they gave up arms, dug the ditches or mass graves in this case, and gladly jumped in. If anything, the modern Turkish Republic should have recognized the Armenian Genocide years ago and given back property and gold that was stolen to the families of the victims. It is the most sensible action, as it is not a reliable position for a neo-Ottoman state. You can't honestly claim to be "objective on moral matters in the region" when you support historical revision in order to hide war crimes and genocide.

You know, you have to understand, in politics there is no "runner up". Armenians will protest and push for recognition based on a position that demands historical Armenia to given back to Armenia, but in reality this will never happen; we know this. You ask for something greater than what you are content with. It is a basic axiom of negotiation and diplomacy. Clearly, if Armenians don't "whine" then what incentive is there for Turks to give back property and gold that they stole from their Christian populations? Absolutely none and that is why the only copout solution for both parties is to cut their loses. The modern Turkish state must acknowledge the role of Ottoman Muslims against Christians, give back confiscated property, distance themselves from their Ottoman heritage, and arrest the last remnants of the Ottoman elite that were recycled into the new Turkish Republic. Clearly, a full-fledged annexation of historic Armenia by the modern republic of Armenia is out of the question. This is the basic solution that both parties would be content and it would build the historical antecedents for a neo-Ottoman revival.

Clearly, Joe, you as an American can't champion your globalist vision of empire via support of Israel and condemnation of Iran when you continually sacrifice your moral currency for nothing more than supporting genocide denial. No European nation can; it is a reality. Lies don't last long and in the end via guilt by association the any entity that supports liars becomes not only a lier in this case, but also a criminal.

[HamshenaHay]

There is a fair bit of debate about whether Turkey did do such a thing, and in any case the Turks of today aren't responsible for the acts of those now dead (in the case of the French they could plausibly deny any potential claims pertaining to actions against French Calvinists as well, that is if anyone bothered to bring a complaint).

I also fail to see why you think I have affinity for the Jews' shoah business. I do think the Nazis overreacted massively and murderously, but the Holocaust lobby, like the Armenian Genocide lobby, is little other than a political and financial shakedown operation. If anything Jews are doubly guilty as they got this con rolling.

There is no debate, there is only the appearance of debate created by the Turkish government, their lobbyist and corrupt historians. The overwhelming majority of independent historians around the world agree on the events being labeled a Genocide. In fact in 1997 the International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS) passed a resolution unanimously recognizing the Ottoman massacres of Armenians as genocide.

"That this assembly of the Association of Genocide Scholars in its conference held in Montreal, June 11–13, 1997, reaffirms that the mass murder of over a million Armenians in Turkey in 1915 is a case of genocide which conforms to the statutes of the United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide. It further condemns the denial of the Armenian Genocide by the Turkish government and its official and unofficial agents and supporters."

But even so NO ONE denies Armenians where massacred not even the Turkish government dares to say such thing. However their position is that it happened because of the “war” and wasn’t “planned”. I wander what would happen if the German government would say the massacres of Jews happened because of the “war” and it wasn’t “planned”.

The word “Genocide” itself was invented to describe what happened to the Armenians.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/HFPch5OILfU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[HamshenaHay]

As for the movie and Spielberg, there won't be a movie, it was a false rumor.

Hurriyet Daily News checked in with Vartan Abovian, the deputy director of another organization, the Armenian National Film Academy, who said he was "baffled by the story"

Spielberg will never make such movie it must be a joke to believe it will ever happen :p

[PBachman]

The Ottoman Empire is gone. So are the people involved in the deed. There's nothing to apologize for, unless you think the old medieval concept of corruption of blood applies to today's Turks.

France might as well apologize to descendants of Huegenots for the Wars of Religion. Fortunately the Du Ponts aren't likely to whine about it for a century if they don't.

First, again, I don't think you understand what happend. The Ottoman elite were recycled into the new Turkish state. You seem to be assuming that there is no continuity, but there is significant continuity. The new Turkish republic is only "new" in name.


There is a fair bit of debate about whether Turkey did do such a thing, and in any case the Turks of today aren't responsible for the acts of those now dead (in the case of the French they could plausibly deny any potential claims pertaining to actions against French Calvinists as well, that is if anyone bothered to bring a complaint).

I also fail to see why you think I have affinity for the Jews' shoah business. I do think the Nazis overreacted massively and murderously, but the Holocaust lobby, like the Armenian Genocide lobby, is little other than a political and financial shakedown operation. If anything Jews are doubly guilty as they got this con rolling.

Again, Turks of today are responsible.

[AFC_Lad]

There is a fair bit of debate about whether Turkey did do such a thing, and in any case the Turks of today aren't responsible for the acts of those now dead (in the case of the French they could plausibly deny any potential claims pertaining to actions against French Calvinists as well, that is if anyone bothered to bring a complaint).

I also fail to see why you think I have affinity for the Jews' shoah business. I do think the Nazis overreacted massively and murderously, but the Holocaust lobby, like the Armenian Genocide lobby, is little other than a political and financial shakedown operation. If anything Jews are doubly guilty as they got this con rolling.

wrong, another idiotic statement.. Nazis overreacted massively, yet Turks didn't? are you honestly a pan-europeanist? or just a very well spoken and sly troll?

[Joe McCarthy]

wrong, another idiotic statement.. Nazis overreacted massively, yet Turks didn't? are you honestly a pan-europeanist? or just a very well spoken and sly troll?

It's as safe to say that the Turks and Germans acted excessively as it is that Jews and Armenians are abusing that fact for their own self-promotion today.

[The Journeyman]

Good! That film Ararat was terrible.

[Joe McCarthy]

Clearly, Joe, you as an American can't champion your globalist vision of empire via support of Israel and condemnation of Iran when you continually sacrifice your moral currency for nothing more than supporting genocide denial. No European nation can; it is a reality. Lies don't last long and in the end via guilt by association the any entity that supports liars becomes not only a lier in this case, but also a criminal.

The crux of the problem as it relates to me is not that I don't take a strong position either way on the past squabbles of Armenia-Turkey but that I oppose the attempt by Armenians to use a century old event as a weapon to corrupt US foreign policy. They are determined to destroy the US relationship with Turkey, which as it stands serves our national interests. I make no apology for denouncing agents of influence trying to control US foreign policy on behalf of a foreign power, especially when many of these agents are (at least nominally) Americans.

The United States was not involved in the events in question, nor should Congress be faced with votes on it any more than it should the Spanish Inquisition. Trying to implicate Americans for refusal to be drawn in to your blood feud is insulting and outrageous.

[Joe McCarthy]

Originally Posted by HamshenaHay
Are you serious? Then why did the Germans apologize to the Jews? Or the Australians to the Aboriginals? There are many similar cases.

If you haven't received the memo yet I'm not too keen on these victim lobbies generally. It becomes a weapon to extort cash and acquire power for the hustlers concerned.


I don't know how much you know about this issue, but I know from first hand that my great grandfather lost his entire family to the massacres. His property, his history, his family everything taken away and today the Turks are not willing to recognize the events even took place.

I don't think any reasonable person says the Turks deny any of this occurred. They merely say it wasn't genocide.


So no my friend, modern Turks are not passive on this issue at all.

I never said they are 'passive'. I said they weren't guilty of the events that occurred a century ago, which is a given as they weren't alive then. They certainly do resist the Armenian victim cult. That isn't anything I ever disputed.


“The Turkish government has spent millions on Washington lobbying over the past decade, much of it focused on the Armenian genocide issue. The country's current lobbyist, the Gephardt Group, collects about $70,000 a month for lobbying services from the government in Ankara, according to federal disclosure records. Public-relations firm Fleishman-Hillard also has a contract with Turkey worth more than $100,000 a month, records show.”


Yes, more foreign lobbying that should be outlawed, but one must note that the Armenia stuff is largely done in response to the agitation by Armenians, many of which claim to be Americans.


There is no debate, there is only the appearance of debate created by the Turkish government, their lobbyist and corrupt historians.

Men like Bernard Lewis are not in the pay of Turkey, or 'corrupt historians'. They just disagree with you.


I wander what would happen if the German government would say the massacres of Jews happened because of the “war” and it wasn’t “planned”.


Well, there is the question of facts involved, not the matter of 'Because Germany has succumbed to Holocaust guilt so should Turkey.'

[Loki]

The crux of the problem as it relates to me is not that I don't take a strong position either way on the past squabbles of Armenia-Turkey but that I oppose the attempt by Armenians to use a century old event as a weapon to corrupt US foreign policy. They are determined to destroy the US relationship with Turkey, which as it stands serves our national interests. I make no apology for denouncing agents of influence trying to control US foreign policy on behalf of a foreign power, especially when many of these agents are (at least nominally) Americans.

The United States was not involved in the events in question, nor should Congress be faced with votes on it any more than it should the Spanish Inquisition. Trying to implicate Americans for refusal to be drawn in to your blood feud is insulting and outrageous.

But why is the US involved in the Jewish Holocaust cause then? Where is the difference? You are just siding with Turkey for geopolitical reasons.

[Joe McCarthy]

But why is the US involved in the Jewish Holocaust cause then? Where is the difference? You are just siding with Turkey for geopolitical reasons.

The US shouldn't be involved there, either. The only real role the US played in the Holocaust was to end it.

Jews just happen to be better organized than Armenians. It's the same principle of insolent meddling though.

[Siberyak]

The US shouldn't be involved there, either. The only real role the US played in the Holocaust was to end it.

Jews just happen to be better organized than Armenians. It's the same principle of insolent meddling though.

It is also unnecessary to have Holocaust museums in the USA. But no we have a large one in Washington DC our nations capital.

[Joe McCarthy]

It is also unnecessary to have Holocaust museums in the USA. But no we have a large one in Washington DC our nations capital.

Agreed. Move it to Israel... or Germany.

[rhiannon]

I would like to see such a film.

The Armenian genocide, or holocaust, is something I was made aware of by a very good friend of mine who also happens to be Armenian.

I hope Spielberg does it.....he would do it justice, I think.

[HamshenaHay]

If you haven't received the memo yet I'm not too keen on these victim lobbies generally. It becomes a weapon to extort cash and acquire power for the hustlers concerned.

It’s a matter of justice and setting the bar for what’s acceptable and what’s not. Who’s to keep another nation from committing similar crimes the next time around if no one is held accountable? Besides the Armenians don’t extort any cash from America, Armenians don’t want reparations from the Americans (unlike some other groups out there). We just want the same justice that everyone is entitled to under the international agreements on the human rights. Genocides are to be condemned no matter what nation it applies to. It’s a noble cause and I don’t see any reason why anyone with common sense would disagree. This whole thing turns into a mess because of the actions from the Turkish government. Their campaign of denial has put others on edge because they keep on blackmailing everyone. As I have previously showed the relentless lobbying and blackmailing, interfering even with internal affairs of western countries is just unacceptable. A few quotes surrounding the recent Turkish outrage in France.

“The fact that we are subject to pressures … in front of the National Assembly where the heart of the (French) Republic beats, I find that particularly shocking,” said Valerie Boyer, author of the measure and lawmaker from Sarkozy’s conservative UMP party.

“Laws voted in this chamber cannot be dictated by Ankara,” said Jean-Christophe Lagarde, a deputy from the New Center party.

Sarkozy said himself: “France doesn’t need an OK from another nation to develop its policies.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/22/france-armenia-genocide-bill-turkey_n_1164990.html

This is unacceptable behavior from a foreign GOVERNMENT that dictates domestic policy. I thought you were against that? But instead of condemning the actions of the Turkish government you pick on the small group of Armenians for standing up to the criminals? So you rather lie belly up and kiss the greasy hand of the Ottomans, just because you have a hunch that this somehow is against the interest of the American people?


Men like Bernard Lewis are not in the pay of Turkey, or 'corrupt historians'. They just disagree with you.

It’s funny you should mention him cause I happen to know a lot about his endeavors. He was paid by the Turks on many occasions. He’s a member of many Turkish organizations who enrich his pockets for his denial. Lewis has been described by many as the Jewish "David Irving" because he is also a revisionist historian who has perverted views that the majority of historians disagree with. But even if he wasn’t paid he would still deny it because of another corrupt reason. He is a raging Zionist that believes in the “uniqueness” of holocaust.

American historian Joel Beinin has called him "perhaps the most articulate and learned Zionist advocate in the North American Middle East academic community ..."
http://www.zionist.org/archives/000017.shtml

According to his believes other nations cannot have suffered the same faith as the Jews. Same goes for another well-known Armenian Genocide denier Guenter Lewy. If you think I am making stuff up read the book (The end of Judaism ) by a Dutch holocaust survivor Hajo Meyer. The VAST majority of historians acknowledge the Armenian Genocide. If I’d quote historians who acknowledge the Armenian genocide I’d be here typing till the next week.

Besides Lewis a HUGE proponent of war with Iraq, he was one of the major forces behind dragging the Americans into that useless war, defending Israel at all cost. Even other Jews like Noam Chomsky find him too radical and you dare to speak of Armenians who supposedly are acting against the American interests? Let me ask you this then.

Jacob Weisberg has described Lewis as "perhaps the most significant intellectual influence behind the invasion of Iraq"

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/the_big_idea/2007/03/party_of_defeat.html

Almost FIVE thousand (http://icasualties.org/iraq/index.aspx) American boys and girls died in that war alone, and I’m not even counting the wounded casualties or the BILLIONS spent on funding it. Is that all in the interest of America? That’s what your friend Zionist Bernard Lowis believes though. And if it where up to him Americans should shed more blood in Iran very soon. Go search for it he's calling for war with Iran since 2006. He even prophesized a nuclear Apocalypse would occur in 2006 because of Iran. If it where up to him America would attack Iran back then as well. Imagine the American casualties and economic consequences if that would have happened.

Bernard Lewis and alike are willing to sacrifice the lives of the American people in order to serve some dubious interests. But sure go ahead and support them. Remember though, the interests of the Armenians are perfectly in line with the interests of the Americans and all Christians for that matter. It’s the absurd reactions from the Turks that are not in line.


They [Armenians] are determined to destroy the US relationship with Turkey, which as it stands serves our national interests.

That is simply not true. Majority of Armenians in America are hardworking citizens and like every other group they want their country to support justice. The reason why the relations strain over the issue is because of the disproportional Turkish reaction to the issue. Not because Armenians want to sabotage American interests. Many western countries recognize the Armenian Genocide and their interests are not in danger one bit. America doesn’t need a backward country like Turkey to dictate what they should do domestically. The Republic of Armenia unlike Turkey NEVER involves in the domestic issues of the US. You should be complaining to the Turks not us. What interests do the Turks serve America anyway? Providing the corridor for bombing Iraq? What a wonderful interest that is.


They certainly do resist the Armenian victim cult. That isn't anything I ever disputed.

“Armenian victim cult”? What kind of nonsense is this? So you say that people who demand justice are a victim cult? By that logic every activist belongs to a victim cult. If by that you imply our persistence then yes we are persistent and we will continue to fight for what’s right in this world. And no revisionist zionist Bernard Lowis or crazy Guenter Lewy or whoever will stand in our way.

O and by the by, that man in your thumbnail mr. “Woodrow Wilson” (the 28th president of America who at the time of the Armenian Genocide was the president of USA) was a firm supporter of the Armenian people during the Ottoman massacres. He did a lot for the Armenians and is to date loved and praised by us.

Quote from his letter to congress: “I am speaking in the spirit and in accordance with the wishes of the greatest of the Christian peoples. The sympathy for Armenia among our people has sprung from untainted consciences, pure Christian faith, and an earnest desire to see Christian people everywhere succored in their time of suffering, and lifted from their abject subjection and distress and enabled to stand upon their feet and take their place among the free nations of the world.”

He was also fully aware of what had happened to Armenians as he describes: “ Senate Committee on Foreign Relations have clearly established the truth of the reported massacres and other atrocities from which the Armenian people have suffered…” (remember at the time the word “genocide” didn’t exist).

Woodrow Wilson, The White House, May 24, 1920.

He didn't give up on Armenians of the crumbling Ottoman Empire and as a result of his efforts, the Treaty of Sevres was signed on August 10, 1920. The treaty recognized an independent Armenian state in an area comprising much of the former historic homeland. It's known as the Wilsonian Armenia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilsonian_Armenia

http://khosq.com/files/Wilson_Map_English_Armenian_0_0.jpg

Just so you know! You should be proud of him as an American! I'm not even one and I am very grateful and proud of him! Armenian and American interests are not so different, people should just stop being afraid of all the blackmailing from the Turkish government. Other European countries aren't afraid why should the mighty America be? That's ridiculous the Turks only bluff and lobby like crazy. What would they do if a country recognizes a Genocide? NOTHING! Many brave intellectuals even in Turkey are coming to terms with their past and there is nothing wrong for USA to set an example for others. Especially not when the hypocrite Obama already supported the cause before he came to office.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/JwR83GZjwdo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Joe McCarthy]

Originally Posted by HamshenaHay
Who’s to keep another nation from committing similar crimes the next time around if no one is held accountable?

There is no one to hold accountable. They're all dead.

And Nuremberg and subsequent precedent as found in Srebrenica, etc., ensures that war criminals and their ilk are going to end up in The Hague.


This is unacceptable behavior from a foreign GOVERNMENT that dictates domestic policy. I thought you were against that?

I am against it. Too bad Armenians are not.


It’s funny you should mention him cause I happen to know a lot about his endeavors. He was paid by the Turks on many occasions. He’s a member of many Turkish organizations who enrich his pockets for his denial.

Bernard Lewis is one of the most eminent historians in the West. I'd really like to see some evidence that he's paid by the Turkish government to think as he does on this issue.


That is simply not true. Majority of Armenians in America are hardworking citizens and like every other group they want their country to support justice. The reason why the relations strain over the issue is because of the disproportional Turkish reaction to the issue.

It is true. The Armenian Genocide resolution before Congress damaged our relations with Turkey and imperiled the War on Terror.


The Republic of Armenia unlike Turkey NEVER involves in the domestic issues of the US.

So then you're claiming there is no coordination between the Armenian government and American Armenian lobby? HO HO!


“Woodrow Wilson” (the 28th president of America who at the time of the Armenian Genocide was the president of USA) was a firm supporter of the Armenian people during the Ottoman massacres.

I would probably have said the same thing if this were 1920, but as it's 2012 it's time to move on. That event is over.

There's something else you should know about Wilson as well. He was an American patriot that despised dual-loyalists. He blamed ethnic Germans and Irish in the US for deep sixing the League of Nations over their petty ancestral concerns. Sound familiar?

[Mosov]

Is seriously another debate going on regarding legitimacy of Armenian Genocide? How much freaking affirmation from academia I have to show for people to be satisfied?

As for Americans that say Turkey is an ally of US. Sure Turkish military officials are good with the US, but the Turkish people hate the US with all their guts. The approval rating of the US among Turkish public is second lowest in the world after Pakistan. When Joe Biden visited Turkey, there were anti-American protests, burning American flags. Americans are just naive and don't understand the real nature of the Turks. I guess you will understand once they stab you in the back and get what they want...

[Mosov]

Did everybody hear? The Jewish Holocaust didn't happen. This one "reputable" historian says so! Ernst Nolte. F8ck all the other academia affirmation, this man's opinion means the Holocaust didn't happen!


Denials of known genocides are not only the work of bigots, such as antisemites and neo-nazis who deny the Holocaust or Turkish ideologues who deny the history of the Armenian Genocide, but are voiced by many people in all walks of life, and even by bona fide respectable academicians. It is important to understand the motivations and thinking and mind formulations through which such denials are constructed and promoted. The present paper focuses on a concept of 'innocent denial' where the denier really may not be consciously entirely aware of the facts and not necessarily aware of their personal interests in choosing to join with deniers of a known genocide. However, it is emphasized that one must be alert to deniers who pretend 'innocence.' Five "thinking defense mechanisms" or ways of constructing and justifying denials are analyzed in a comparative analysis of two examples of denials, by German professor Ernst Nolte who denies the Holocaust, and Jewish professor Bernard Lewis who denies the Armenian Genocide. Interpretations are also given of David Irving a denier who denies being a denier, and Noam Chomsky who stands adamantly for the free speech of deniers in their relationships to denials of the Holocaust, and two case histories of denial of the Armenian Genocide in Israel are presented.

http://www.ideajournal.com/articles.php?id=27

[Joe McCarthy]

Is seriously another debate going on regarding legitimacy of Armenian Genocide? How much freaking affirmation from academia I have to show for people to be satisfied?

As for Americans that say Turkey is an ally of US. Sure Turkish military officials are good with the US, but the Turkish people hate the US with all their guts. The approval rating of the US among Turkish public is second lowest in the world after Pakistan. When Joe Biden visited Turkey, there were anti-American protests, burning American flags. Americans are just naive and don't understand the real nature of the Turks. I guess you will understand once they stab you in the back and get what they want...

There is no real debate about the validity of this Shoah of yours. I'm agnostic on the issue and merely noting that it's not as clear cut among scholars as you people try to claim. What is going on is a discussion about how Armenians abuse the event.

You're right that the Turkish population is anti-American. Even more than Russians, in fact. But the Turkish government has no plausible reason to stab us in the back. We hold all the cards.

As for Lewis, he isn't the only scholar that disputes it was a 'genocide'. He also is not to be compared to Nolte in terms of academic respect. It's like comparing Alfred de Zayas to John Toland.

[PBachman]

What is going on is a discussion about how Armenians abuse the event.

Joe this is ridiculous, please explain.

[PBachman]

It is true. The Armenian Genocide resolution before Congress damaged our relations with Turkey and imperiled the War on Terror.

So then you're claiming there is no coordination between the Armenian government and American Armenian lobby? HO HO!

There's something else you should know about Wilson as well. He was an American patriot that despised dual-loyalists. He blamed ethnic Germans and Irish in the US for deep sixing the League of Nations over their petty ancestral concerns. Sound familiar?

Again, you are making extreme claims. The Armenian lobby is not nearly as influential as the Jewish. Furthermore, Turkey did not use the Armenian issue as a pretext to screw of America. It has done so on its own accord. Turkey as a neo-Ottoman state is madness, but if you are at least in support of it, which you are, please, be brave and admit that if this will happen it at least has to be done so in such a way where a neo-Ottoman expansion is accepted. You are not going to be able to prop them up if you push Armenian Genocide denial; It is not going to happen. Finally, on your last point, again, read my earlier post about why Armenians claim they want "lands returned". IMHO it is a smart move and it would be idiotic if they dropped it.

[Joe McCarthy]

Turkey as a neo-Ottoman state is madness, but if you are at least in support of it, which you are, please, be brave and admit that if this will happen it at least has to be done so in such a way where a neo-Ottoman expansion is accepted.

What are you on about? When have I said anything about supporting 'neo-Ottoman expansion' and what prospect is there for that? The United States would never support an incursion into Europe, for example. It'd be met with force. We kicked Saddam out of Kuwait for fear he was an Arab Bismarck. Now you think we're going to allow the Turks to do the same?! This is pure fantasy.

[HamshenaHay]

Joe this is ridiculous, please explain.

It's pure denialist rhetoric. As if Armenian struggle for recognition would bring about the destruction of America, “Armenians abuse the Genocide”, “Armenians belong to a victim cult” bla bla bla. There is no proof what so ever that the interests of the Armenians collide with the interests of the Americans. It would somehow magically impair the ability to fight the war on terror. It doesn’t impair any other European country from fighting the same war, why would it impair USA, the mightiest country in the world? Turkey itself is one of the hotbeds of Terrorism. To name a few Turkish terrorist organizations (Gray Wolves, Turkish Revenge Brigade, Ergenekon, Great Eastern Islamic Raiders' Front etc… etc…. all operational to this day) They assassinate Christians stab clergymen from behind while they are kneeling in prayer, attack American Embassies on many occasions (The US ambassador to Turkey, Ross Wilson, said: "It is enough to say they are terrorists who carried out a cowardly and dastardly attack." in 2008 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7497049.stm) Like Mosov mentioned Turkish disdain for the Americans is huge and he wants for America to cater to their interests. The amount of influence Armenia has over USA is negligible while Turkish influence on American politics is unprecedented and somehow I don’t see him complain about the Turks. He rather complain about the Armenian struggle for justice. Well give me a break this all sounds so hypocritical.

But what I can’t understand the most is how he can support widely criticized “historians” like Bernard Lewis and his Zionist agenda (which I already showed is one of the most prominent Zionists out there, who didn’t flinch on calling the American people to shed blood for his interests) but condemns the Armenians who never ask such a thing, in fact they ARE Americans themselves and the only thing they demand is for their country to recognize a great calamity that was perpetrated upon their grandparents (just like almost every other civilized country already has).

All the hostility towards Armenians because the Turks “would get” upset, is really beyond me. This whole discussion really smells. I know what Woodrow Wilson would have done today though, he would slap some sense into those so called modern conservatives. The only thing they peruse is to serve the desire of corporations and Israel. Nothing more nothing less.

[Nairi]

It's pure denialist rhetoric. As if Armenian struggle for recognition would bring about the destruction of America, “Armenians abuse the Genocide”, “Armenians belong to a victim cult” bla bla bla. There is no proof what so ever that the interests of the Armenians collide with the interests of the Americans. It would somehow magically impair the ability to fight the war on terror. It doesn’t impair any other European country from fighting the same war, why would it impair USA, the mightiest country in the world? Turkey itself is one of the hotbeds of Terrorism. To name a few Turkish terrorist organizations (Gray Wolves, Turkish Revenge Brigade, Ergenekon, Great Eastern Islamic Raiders' Front etc… etc…. all operational to this day) They assassinate Christians stab clergymen from behind while they are kneeling in prayer, attack American Embassies on many occasions (The US ambassador to Turkey, Ross Wilson, said: "It is enough to say they are terrorists who carried out a cowardly and dastardly attack." in 2008 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7497049.stm) Like Mosov mentioned Turkish disdain for the Americans is huge and he wants for America to cater to their interests. The amount of influence Armenia has over USA is negligible while Turkish influence on American politics is unprecedented and somehow I don’t see him complain about the Turks. He rather complain about the Armenian struggle for justice. Well give me a break this all sounds so hypocritical.

But what I can’t understand the most is how he can support widely criticized “historians” like Bernard Lewis and his Zionist agenda (which I already showed is one of the most prominent Zionists out there, who didn’t flinch on calling the American people to shed blood for his interests) but condemns the Armenians who never ask such a thing, in fact they ARE Americans themselves and the only thing they demand is for their country to recognize a great calamity that was perpetrated upon their grandparents (just like almost every other civilized country already has).

All the hostility towards Armenians because the Turks “would get” upset, is really beyond me. This whole discussion really smells. I know what Woodrow Wilson would have done today though, he would slap some sense into those so called modern conservatives. The only thing they peruse is to serve the desire of corporations and Israel. Nothing more nothing less.

Because Joe is pro-Jewish, pro-Zionist himself ;)

[HamshenaHay]

Because Joe is pro-Jewish, pro-Zionist himself ;)

It doesn't concern me I'm not against them either, it's just difficult to comprehend the double standard. Off all the things he accuses us (which I dispute) those whom he defends actually do commit, and in greater quantities, out there in the open. :confused:

[HamshenaHay]

oops I replied twice, again....