"35%-55% Ashkenazis are of European Descent"

[PetiteParisienne]

Interesting study from 2010 on the genetic diversity of Ashkenazi Jews. Food for thought.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/08/100826141331.htm

[gandalf]

This not surprising .
Jews got some caracteristics of the population with
witch they have been living for a long time .

I met a Russian jew once and she looked very siberian .

[Bakura]

In my book most of European Jews looks quite White cuz they for centuries mixed with the local population and they pick up a lot Euro genes.

[2Cool]

What about Sephardic (those from Portugal/Spain mainly)?

[PetiteParisienne]

What about Sephardic (those from Portugal/Spain mainly)?

Sephardic Jews are not considered white, especially those from North African countries. Their religious and ethnic practices are very different from those of Ashkenazi Jews, as well.

[2Cool]

Sephardic Jews are not considered white, especially those from North African countries. Their religious and ethnic practices are very different from those of Ashkenazi Jews, as well.

That's why I specified those from Portugal (look up Belmonte Jews) and Spain. Not those that got expelled into other countries and mixed with the locals.

[Sikeliot]

I don't know about all Ashkenazis, but Russian Jews often look just Russian to me and not very Semitic.

[The Lawspeaker]

http://www.koffietijd.nl/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Job-Cohen.jpeg

http://roimg.nl/bestanden/afbeeldingen/buza/buza-nieuws/2011/2010-uri-rosenthal-minister-van-buitenlandse-zaken-03.jpg

http://images2-telegraaf.nl/multimedia/archive/00607/Lodewijk_Asscher_607425i.jpg

Three "Dutch" Jews. Job Cohen (former Labour-leader and former mayor of Amsterdam), Uri Rosenthal (Foreign Minister) and Lodewijk Asscher (Labour wethouder in Amsterdam).

[Nairi]

Rimma Varzhapetyan, leader of Jewish community in Armenia,ethnic Jew from Russia (married to an Armenian).

http://www.molokane.org/subbotniki/Armenia/DVD/x14.jpg

[Grizzly]

Ashkenazi

[Raskolnikov]

The researchers were able to estimate that between 35 and 55 percent of the modern Ashkenazi genome comes from European descent.
This does not translate to:
"35-55% Ashkenazis are of European descent."

[Joe McCarthy]

In my experience the typical American Jew is a slightly exotic looking caucasoid like the father of the atomic bomb, J. Robert Oppenheimer.

http://www.atomicarchive.com/History/mp/Images/B12.jpg

[Sicilianu101]

I don't think this article is very convincing.
E.g. one example they use is
"A variant of the lactase gene swept through Europe at around the same time as the domestication of cattle several thousand years ago," Bray says. "This result suggests the selection preceded the European establishment of the Ashkenazi Jewish population, which is consistent with the historical record.

I guess "Europe" for them starts at like Switzerland or something.. lol "Swept"
& I wonder how Sicilians would score in this "analysis."

[ariaka]

Sephardic Jews are not considered white, especially those from North African countries. Their religious and ethnic practices are very different from those of Ashkenazi Jews, as well.

There are some sephardic jews though who look white even though not all of them are white. Would you agree that perhaps there are some white sephardic jews?

[rhiannon]

Interesting study from 2010 on the genetic diversity of Ashkenazi Jews. Food for thought.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/08/100826141331.htm

My old best friend, said to be a 100% Polish Jew, actually had both sets of grandparents grow up in the same little Polish Village.....but who never actually met one another while they were still living in Europe! They all met after immigrating here to the US at different times.

Funny thing is, though....her mother's side is pretty fair and Eastern-European looking.....but her dad's side look practically like they just stepped off the boat from Israel or the Middle East.

Odd. Both parents are 100% Polish....although there may be a touch of Russian admixture.

[Redar14]

Most Ashkenazis Jews are descendants of Khazars, Semi-European tribe from Pontic steppes so it's not suprising that a lot of Ashkenazis have european appearance or gene pool.

[PetiteParisienne]

There are some sephardic jews though who look white even though not all of them are white. Would you agree that perhaps there are some white sephardic jews?

I'm not going to say it's impossible, though I know a lot of Sephardic Jews, and I think most would probably be offended if they were referred to as white. :p

[PetiteParisienne]

My old best friend, said to be a 100% Polish Jew, actually had both sets of grandparents grow up in the same little Polish Village.....but who never actually met one another while they were still living in Europe! They all met after immigrating here to the US at different times.

Funny thing is, though....her mother's side is pretty fair and Eastern-European looking.....but her dad's side look practically like they just stepped off the boat from Israel or the Middle East.

Odd. Both parents are 100% Polish....although there may be a touch of Russian admixture.

That's a great story! I'm not surprised about the differences in her parents' appearances. European Jews are very diverse physically.

[Amapola]

I'm not going to say it's impossible, though I know a lot of Sephardic Jews, and I think most would probably be offended if they were referred to as white. :p

Are the ones you know , Iberian Sephardites, for example, Sephardites that went to Europe instead of north Africa or the Ottoman empire? In this case I don't see why they should feel less white than the Ashkenazis.

[PetiteParisienne]

That's why I specified those from Portugal (look up Belmonte Jews) and Spain. Not those that got expelled into other countries and mixed with the locals.

Ashkenazis would not consider them to be white. Sephardic history and customs are just too different. The Belmontes are descended from Sephardim.

[memobekes]

Sephardic Jews are not considered white, especially those from North African countries. Their religious and ethnic practices are very different from those of Ashkenazi Jews, as well.

Why aren't the Sephardic Jews considered white?

[PetiteParisienne]

Why aren't the Sephardic Jews considered white?

Because they are descended from North Africans and Middle Eastern people. The Sephardim from Spain and Portugal can be up for debate, but it's a stretch. Here's a good resource on the differences between Ashkenazim and Sephardim:

http://www.jewfaq.org/ashkseph.htm

[Prince Carlo]

Because they are descended from North Africans and Middle Eastern people. The Sephardim from Spain and Portugal can be up for debate, but it's a stretch. Here's a good resource on the differences between Ashkenazim and Sephardim:

http://www.jewfaq.org/ashkseph.htm

Genetic differences between Sephardim and Ashkenazic Jews are minimal. They usually form a cluster on genetic maps.

[Defiance]

This does not translate to:
"35-55% Ashkenazis are of European descent."
Exactly. The typical Jew may technically have some European blood, but that does not mean they should be considered White, dammit. They're distinct and separate.

[ariaka]

Exactly. The typical Jew may technically have some European blood, but that does not mean they should be considered White, dammit. They're distinct and separate.

How would you define white? There are a variety of white ethnic groups and each white ethnic group is different than the other sorts of whites. For example if you were to analyze the DNA of people who were ethnically Finnish you would find they are unique from other whites. Or if you were to analyze the DNA of people who were among the Celtic peoples of the British Isles you would find they were ethnically different than other whites.

So the fact that jews are genetically unique from other whites doesn't make them non-white because other ethnicities of white people are genetically unique from other white peoples.

Or if you are claiming jews are not white because some of them are pro-diversity well there are some white gentiles who are pro-diversity too. And not all jews are pro-diversity.

I just wonder what your criteria is for judging them not to be white.

If you look at the history of Europe it consists of white people slaughtering each other for thousands of years. Does the fact that English people went to war against many sorts of European nations mean that English people are not white? During the course of history many white nations have competed against each other in various ways and yet at the end of it all everyone agrees that the various European nations are white.

And so even if you believe that jewish people are a hostile nation, and personally I do not think jews as a whole are intrinsically hostile(though some of them may be hostile just as people of other white nationalities may be hostile),.... but even if that is what you think.... that should not disqualify jews from being white.

[PetiteParisienne]

Exactly. The typical Jew may technically have some European blood, but that does not mean they should be considered White, dammit. They're distinct and separate.

Did you know that Icelandic people are more distinct genetically from the rest of Europeans than most Ashkenazi Jews?

[Defiance]

I just wonder what your criteria is for judging them not to be white.
Aside from their generally light skin, there's really not much "White" or "European" about them. They are Middle Eastern aliens.


Did you know that Icelandic people are more distinct genetically from the rest of Europeans than most Ashkenazi Jews?
If that's true (and let's face it, it probably isn't), it's not necessarily relevant.

[ariaka]

Aside from their generally light skin, there's really not much "White" or "European" about them. They are Middle Eastern aliens.


http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR5LjqYOl4takzsq8AyTpN_BYwluWWwR JBPtFHwjV3hHEd8uT7cKA

Above is a picture of jewish model Bar Rafaeli. She looks white to me. Maybe some jews aren't white but there certainly are some jews that are white. I am not going to guess what percentage are white but many of the ones I have seen in America are white.

[Styggnacke]

I don't know about all Ashkenazis, but Russian Jews often look just Russian to me and not very Semitic.
The oligarchs!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/M.B.Khodorkovsky.jpg/600px-M.B.Khodorkovsky.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Mikhail_Fridman_by_Anton_Nossik.JPG
http://blog.kievukraine.info/uploaded_images/4782-732902.jpg
http://sptimes.ru/archive/img/652/14738.jpg
They look quite Jewish to me.

[PetiteParisienne]

Esti Ginzburg.

http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad3/sonia_vb/Esti%20Ginzburg/esti_ginzburg_reebok3g.jpg

Romola Garai.

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt63/daemons666/Romolagarai.jpg

[PetiteParisienne]

Aside from their generally light skin, there's really not much "White" or "European" about them. They are Middle Eastern aliens.


If that's true (and let's face it, it probably isn't), it's not necessarily relevant.

Icelandic genetic drift.

http://www.genomeweb.com/study-finds-evidence-rapid-genetic-drift-icelandic-mitochondria

It's relevant because Icelanders are still white Europeans regardless of their genetic uniqueness.

[Mercury]

The researchers were able to estimate that between 35 and 55 percent of the modern Ashkenazi genome comes from European descent.

Assuming the remainder of their ancestry is all levantine, a population closely related to the European people, I see no reason why they cannot be considered White. Although it's already my belief Levantines (especially the Christian Lebanese) fall within the category of White anyway. Assuming I'm correct, Ashkenazis are 100% white and can be considered nothing else.

Following some people's logic, southern Italians & Greeks should also be excluded from the 'white race' as well. Go figure Ashkenazis cluster closer to S. Italians & Greeks above all people. Phenotypically they blend right in as well, which is why they are so often mistaken for each other.

[Sikeliot]

It's because Ashkenazis, South Italians, and Greeks are all a mixture of Paleolithic European and Neolithic, Levantine type genes.

[Styggnacke]

Avigdor Lieberman:
http://www.imemc.org/attachments/jan2011/aavigdor_lieberman.jpg
Do you think he looks Jewish or Russian?

[Osweo]

This does not translate to:
"35-55% Ashkenazis are of European descent."
God yes. Reporters shouldn't be allowed near genetic results, they haven't got a clue! :p

I would say, ALL Ashkenazim have some European descent.

Probably about a quarter of their ancestry, on average.

Interestingly, though, I would also bet that this section of ancestry is NOT from a large number of individuals, but a smaller number than you might expect, yet their contribution to the modern genome is greater due to inbreeding and pedigree collapse. A bit of a 'founder effect', indeed.


Most Ashkenazis Jews are descendants of Khazars, Semi-European tribe from Pontic steppes so it's not suprising that a lot of Ashkenazis have european appearance or gene pool.
That is utter drivel that has been debunked summarily SO many times that it is not worthy of further attention.

[PetiteParisienne]

Avigdor Lieberman:
http://www.imemc.org/attachments/jan2011/aavigdor_lieberman.jpg
Do you think he looks Jewish or Russian?

He is a Soviet-born Jew, now an Israeli.

[Baron Samedi]

Yet another moronic thread on Kikes. Fucking hell.

[Redar14]

That is utter drivel that has been debunked summarily SO many times that it is not worthy of further attention.

Most Ashkenazis come from Eastern Europe, especially from Ukraine, Eastern Poland, Hungary and Russia. When Pechenegs had destroyed khazarian khaganate majority of Khazars fled to eastern Poland, Hungary and kievan Rus.

[Osweo]

Most Ashkenazis come from Eastern Europe, especially from Ukraine, Eastern Poland, Hungary and Russia. When Pechenegs had destroyed khazarian khaganate majority of Khazars fled to eastern Poland, Hungary and kievan Rus.

They speak GERMAN. :yawn:

[The Lawspeaker]

They speak GERMAN. :yawn:
But how recent is that ? That they began to speak German or Jiddish.

[Redar14]

They speak GERMAN. :yawn:

You mean yiddish?

Majority of eastern Jews ("Litvaki") from former CCCP don't spoke in yiddish. Jews from Central/East Asia don't spoke in yiddish also.

[Insuperable]

If someone has to be Ubermensch Askhenazi are the best candidate.
There is something about them.
One can argue that they are 55 % white but that does not explain why are there so many Jewish physicists, chemists and mathematicians and scientists in general among only 10 000 000 Askhenazi population. No nation in the world no matter how Nordic does not even come close to numbers of Askhenazi in science textbook so to postulate that they are smart because of European admixture does not hold water.
One may not like this but I am only saying what it is as it is.
As I said before on nndb.com every Jew of European descent is considered white.
Remember Jews are 55% European and the rest is predominantly West Asian ( armenian, georgian... ) and around 10-15% South West Asian.
On nndb.com armenians, georgians and people of Caucasus are classified as white so Jews are more than 55% white at least according to nndb.com

I refuse to classify all these Jewish scientists who left an everlasting mark on science as non-white because as I said one can not postulate that they are intelligent because of European genes.
If they are intelligent and look white to majority of Europeans than they are white.
Intelligence is what is the most important. What is purpose of being blond and blue eyed if that person does not know to add two plus two if you catch my drift.
So, I repeat if they are intelligent and look white why not consider them white.

[Mercury]

If someone has to be Ubermensch Askhenazi are the best candidate.
There is something about them.
One can argue that they are 55 % white but that does not explain why are there so many Jewish physicists, chemists and mathematicians and scientists in general among only 10 000 000 Askhenazi population. No nation in the world no matter how Nordic does not even come close to numbers of Askhenazi in science textbook so to postulate that they are smart because of European admixture does not hold water.
One may not like this but I am only saying what it is as it is.
As I said before on nndb.com every Jew of European descent is considered white.
Remember Jews are 55% European and the rest is predominantly West Asian ( armenian, georgian... ) and around 10-15% South West Asian.
On nndb.com armenians, georgians and people of Caucasus are classified as white so Jews are more than 55% white at least according to nndb.com

I refuse to classify all these Jewish scientists who left an everlasting mark on science as non-white because as I said one can not postulate that they are intelligent because of European genes.
If they are intelligent and look white to majority of Europeans than they are white.
Intelligence is what is the most important. What is purpose of being blond and blue eyed if that person does not know to add two plus two if you catch my drift.
So, I repeat if they are intelligent and look white why not consider them white.


Well the thing is their more Semitic cousins such as the Sephardim have significantly less European admixture, and are of average intelligence. Ashkenazis, out of all the Jewish populations, have the most European ancestry and are the most intelligent out of the bunch. I don't think this is can be considered coincidence. But you're questioning why they are so successful compared to the typical white? I wonder if it has something to do with the Jewish religion and the Catholic Church's banning of usury. Perhaps Ashkenazi Jews in Europe were allowed to progress in Mathematics while Europeans were retarded a tad.

[Osweo]

But how recent is that ? That they began to speak German or Jiddish.
trust me, they didn't learn this RHINELAND variety of German down in the Steppe. :coffee:

You mean yiddish?

Majority of eastern Jews ("Litvaki") from former CCCP don't spoke in yiddish. Jews from Central/East Asia don't spoke in yiddish also.
They speak Russian now, but spoke Yiddish in living memory. Their surnames are mostly German derived. :coffee:

So, I repeat if they are intelligent and look white why not consider them white.
This is daft.
Forget about who is 'White', which is a very problematic abstract category, open to all sorts of stupid argument.
Think rather about who is YOURS. Who is your IN-group.
What are you? A Croat? You belong to the Jugoslav world, the wider Slavonic world, the Habsburg world, the Catholic world, Christendom, Europe. When you climb to a level that includes the Jews, the connection seems so distant as to be irrelevant.
Anything European Jews achieved, they achieved it in our environment that WE created. They didn't achieve anything elsewhere, and so we can claim some part in their work anyway. :D But who cares? I am for MY people, and not the 'superior' people, whoever that might be.

[Styggnacke]

Regarding Ashkenazi Jews and their intelligence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence#.22Natural_History_o f_Ashkenazi_Intelligence.22

I think it's a fairly good and reasonable explanation to their high intelligence, thus their good performance in different fields of science etc.

[Insuperable]

Well the thing is their more Semitic cousins such as the Sephardim have significantly less European admixture, and are of average intelligence. Ashkenazis, out of all the Jewish populations, have the most European ancestry and are the most intelligent out of the bunch. I don't think this is can be considered coincidence. But you're questioning why they are so successful compared to the typical white? I wonder if it has something to do with the Jewish religion and the Catholic Church's banning of usury. Perhaps Ashkenazi Jews in Europe were allowed to progress in Mathematics while Europeans were retarded a tad.

I do not follow you on this usury think. I am not informed. I guess what you are trying to say is that they had to think how to earn money and that they had to use brains and so on... This does not seem plausible, at least to me.

I have always also thought that it has something to do with religion because they think that they are special, Gods chosen people. Growing up thinking you are special can change your psyche a bit but I also think that this is not plausible because as you said it Askhenazi jews are way smarter than Sephardim.

You have to understand that whole Europe was retarded a tad until Guttenberg made the first pressing press in Europe which enabled knowledge to be accesible to everyone. Right after this point came Copernicus, Kepler, Newton and scientific revolution began. Previously all knowledge was accesible only to Church.
So I thought that because they were not subjected to Catholic Church or any other Christian Church they used their brains for some time before scientific revolution. This also does not hold water. Why? Because there was no prominent scientists of Askhenazi origins ( correct me if I am wrong ) until the age of Jacobi ( mathematics ) and Heinrich Hertz ( who was only partially Jewish ). I think that real start of "Jewish" science started with Einstein. So, one can argue that because they were unwanted in Europe throughout centuries that had to adapt to "harsh" environment of hostility. But as I said massive outbursts of Jewish scientists began with Einstein. So, what I want to say is that why it took them so long after scientific revolution to become notable scientists and why only in the last 100 years or so number of Jewish scientists rose unexplainably.
The only logical explanation is that they are intelligent because of European blood but as I said I can not understand how can they be more intelligent than Europeans and even East Asians by far because of only 55% European blood of which 20% is mediterranean.
So I think its both ( european genes and centuries of adaptation in hostile environment ). Yet, this may not be.
Whatever it is they look white and I very intelligent. I do not know what someone else could want them to be.
Its said how an average iq of askhenazi jew is around 130. I mean this is inhuman have this kind of average iq.

[Insuperable]

trust me, they didn't learn this RHINELAND variety of German down in the Steppe. :coffee:

They speak Russian now, but spoke Yiddish in living memory. Their surnames are mostly German derived. :coffee:

This is daft.
Forget about who is 'White', which is a very problematic abstract category, open to all sorts of stupid argument.
Think rather about who is YOURS. Who is your IN-group.
What are you? A Croat? You belong to the Jugoslav world, the wider Slavonic world, the Habsburg world, the Catholic world, Christendom, Europe. When you climb to a level that includes the Jews, the connection seems so distant as to be irrelevant.
Anything European Jews achieved, they achieved it in our environment that WE created. They didn't achieve anything elsewhere, and so we can claim some part in their work anyway. :D But who cares? I am for MY people, and not the 'superior' people, whoever that might be.

Yes, at last some rational member on this forum. That are my thoughts exactly but I can not help to get racial regarding Jews when someone says that they are not white throwing all that scientific legacy out of Europe no matter if they had achieved that legacy in Europe

[Hess]

Avigdor Lieberman:
http://www.imemc.org/attachments/jan2011/aavigdor_lieberman.jpg
Do you think he looks Jewish or Russian?

I don't know about Russian, but he could easily pass as Ukrainian.

[Osweo]

The differences between the Ashkenazim and Sephardim have more to do with chance. The former were present when the present capitalist system was evolved in the northwest and central part of Europe. At this time, the Sephardim were scattered all over the place in the Ottoman Empire and so on. Naturally, those who were present while things were going on got on the rollercoaster. Those dallying around in the backwaters just lived and survived like they'd always done.

I heard the Sefardim are doing well in Israel itself however, on the eve of shunting the Ashkenazim aside as the dominant force there. Is my info outdated?

[Insuperable]

Whatever it is they look white and I very intelligent
instead of I it should be are,
I do not know why I put I instead of are
but never mind that

[Albion]

It doesn't matter whether a lot of Europeans intermarried with Jews, the ones that did effectively abandoned their native cultures and ethnicities as well as bred with non-Euros. Most of these Jews carrying European genes will also have non-Euro ancestry derived from the actual Middle Eastern or Khazar origins of the Jews. I'd love to see the aDNA admixture results.

They are no Europeans.

[Insuperable]

There is a big misunderstanding that Sephardim Jews are less European than Askhenazim Jews. Their so called European component and West Asian component is the same. The difference is that Sephardim Jews have higher mediterranean component instead east and/or west European.
I do not how many of you knows that Sephardim Jews have way higher percentage of R1b haplogroup than Askhenazi while Askhenazi are autosomally more Western European hence why they are more smarter.

[Amapola]

The differences between the Ashkenazim and Sephardim have more to do with chance. The former were present when the present capitalist system was evolved in the northwest and central part of Europe. At this time, the Sephardim were scattered all over the place in the Ottoman Empire and so on. Naturally, those who were present while things were going on got on the rollercoaster. Those dallying around in the backwaters just lived and survived like they'd always done.

I heard the Sefardim are doing well in Israel itself however, on the eve of shunting the Ashkenazim aside as the dominant force there. Is my info outdated?

The sephardim, in general, were great mathematitians, writers, scientists, etc... don't know about the others. This is known in every juderia that welcomed them; they boosted culture to a large extent, wherever they went to, even in Morocco; and no I am not a Jews praiser or anything. As far as I know, Sephardim consider their culture much better than Ashkenazies's... in all senses. And I suppose it happens in the opposite direction too.

[Insuperable]

It doesn't matter whether a lot of Europeans intermarried with Jews, the ones that did effectively abandoned their native cultures and ethnicities as well as bred with non-Euros. Most of these Jews carrying European genes will also have non-Euro ancestry derived from the actual Middle Eastern or Khazar origins of the Jews. I'd love to see the aDNA admixture results.

They are no Europeans.

But that is the whole point.
As I said for me the most important thing is intelligence and it seems that they pass it through genes. So who cares if they have some middle eastern genes.
Arent Europeans superior because of their creativity and inventivness rather then being simply European

[Mercury]

But that is the whole point.
As I said for me the most important thing is intelligence and it seems that they pass it through genes. So who cares if they have some middle eastern genes.
Arent Europeans superior because of their creativity and inventivness rather then being simply European

Indeed. Ashkenazis are naturally gifted and can only improve the European gene pool. While it's true Ashkenazis have non-white Levantine genes, lets not forget that Levantine admixture in European goes back as early as the Neolithic age. Also, remember the Phoenicians who have set up small trading colonies throughout all of Europe. Mixing with that region of the Middle East is part of our history, plain and simple.

I'm thankful we are at a point where "Jews" are a white ethnicity just like Italian, Irish, or Scottish. The sooner the better, as Ashkenazis won't look at themselves as a separate ethnicity and may not be hostile to European civilization.

[Scrapple]

It doesn't matter whether a lot of Europeans intermarried with Jews, the ones that did effectively abandoned their native cultures and ethnicities as well as bred with non-Euros. Most of these Jews carrying European genes will also have non-Euro ancestry derived from the actual Middle Eastern or Khazar origins of the Jews. I'd love to see the aDNA admixture results.

They are no Europeans.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE#gid=0

Considering where most lived, Central and Eastern Europe, the have noticably higher SW Asian.

AJ: 13%
Germans: 1.7%
Belorussians: 1.9%
Lithuanians: 1.6%
Poles: 2.3%
Russians: 1-2%
Ukranians: 3%

[Osweo]

But that is the whole point.
As I said for me the most important thing is intelligence and it seems that they pass it through genes. So who cares if they have some middle eastern genes.
Arent Europeans superior because of their creativity and inventivness rather then being simply European

Brat, forget about 'superiority'. Our race is so 'superior', that many of its members are happy to become minorities in their own lands. Superiority is relative. We've been good at science in recent centuries, but we are shit at self preservation at the present time.

If you worship at the altar of superiority, should you sacrifice your SELF when you find somebody better?

Fuck that. I never invented anything, nor did my family, but I'll support them over ANYBODY else. Wipe the word 'superior' from your vocabulary. It is NOT helpful in our present situation.

[Grumpy Cat]

Doesn't mean I have to consider them kin.

[Osweo]

Indeed. Ashkenazis are naturally gifted and can only improve the European gene pool.

What idiocy. Incorporating foreigners produces new generations with mixed loyalties and less attachment to each parent's culture and background. A no-win situation.

Ashkenazi success has a lot to do with their particular way of living and bringing up their kids. When you take the genes from this, and piss about with the culture, you fail.

Your ideas are biological determinism and miss a LOT of the bigger picture.

[PetiteParisienne]

I'd like to add something about Yiddish that might be found interesting:

Yiddish hasn't been spoken in my family for three generations on my mother's side, and four generations on my father's side. My maternal grandmother told me that her parents only spoke Yiddish when encountering other Ashkenazi Jews who did not speak Romanian. Yiddish was used as a common language amongst European Jews of different nationalities. Native tongues were spoken in the home and in all other occasions.

[Portukalos]

Sephardic Jews are not considered white, especially those from North African countries. Their religious and ethnic practices are very different from those of Ashkenazi Jews, as well.

If South Italians are considered as white , then so are Sephardi Jews (including those from North Africa who are usually very Frenchized).

Secondly ,there's usually a minsundertood. Many Sephardic Jews were culturally much more West European than Ashkenazim. But since Ashkenazi Jews have a more Germanic culture and are blonder hair , they're usually seen as more "European" but that doesn't mean Sephardi Jews from Netherlands Italy or the upper class of Morocco are less "European" in their way of life. It's just a question of standard for people. A French journalist said that the Sephardi Jewish quarter of Paris in the 70's was much more European-French in flavor than the Ashkenazi one of the 40's , as the latter imposed their Eastern European culture outside their houses , while the former assimilated completely.

[Albion]

But that is the whole point.
As I said for me the most important thing is intelligence and it seems that they pass it through genes. So who cares if they have some middle eastern genes.
Arent Europeans superior because of their creativity and inventivness rather then being simply European

It makes no sense, other races have creative and inventive minorities but that doesn't make them European.
Being European involves a whole lot more and is very complex like any other race, it involves not only genes but also culture, mentality, physical traits, origins, religion and many other things.

[Raikaswinþs]

Because they are descended from North Africans and Middle Eastern people. The Sephardim from Spain and Portugal can be up for debate, but it's a stretch. Here's a good resource on the differences between Ashkenazim and Sephardim:

http://www.jewfaq.org/ashkseph.htm

It is a common mistake to chunk the mizrahi jews into the sephardite sack. Bt technically speaking, Sephardi jews refers exclusively to Iberian jews and their descents. Which, for the most part where Caucasoid-looking in the Mediterranean sense and not extremely different from other European meds.

Saying then that "The Sephardim from Spain and Portugal can be up for debate" is laughable in many sense since the Sephardim refers exclusively to those jews that root from Spain and Portugal.

Again, the ones that left for the middle east, would gradually mix with middle easterners and become middle eastern looking (like that gorgeous girl I was lucky enough to date a few times in the mid-late 2000's) . The ones that stayed in Europe would retain their Euro-Mediterranean appearance.

here what sephardic (iberian) jews looked (and look like)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Sephardi_Jews_-_mosaic.PNG

[Insuperable]

Brat, forget about 'superiority'. Our race is so 'superior', that many of its members are happy to become minorities in their own lands. Superiority is relative. We've been good at science in recent centuries, but we are shit at self preservation at the present time.

If you worship at the altar of superiority, should you sacrifice your SELF when you find somebody better?

Fuck that. I never invented anything, nor did my family, but I'll support them over ANYBODY else. Wipe the word 'superior' from your vocabulary. It is NOT helpful in our present situation.

You are absolutely right but the difference between me and you is that I am for preservation and for superiority. But not for Hitler like superiority Why? Because in the next 50 or 100 years your grandchildren will not learn german as a foreign language but ching chong chang and indian and we need all intelligence there is to stop this.
You said your family did not invent anything. You are English for crying out loud. As all people of English descent you have big potential. The problem is that you are not exploiting it. That is the reason why China and India are rising.
I want to stop that and I am for preservation of every ethnicity in Europe. I hate word European and I am not European but Croat.
So you see we think alike but I am worried about other things among preservation of ethnicities...

[Portukalos]

I'm not going to say it's impossible, though I know a lot of Sephardic Jews, and I think most would probably be offended if they were referred to as white. :p

I think you are not really what you claim. In France , Sephardic Jews are seen as white of the mediterranean kind (like italians) . Patrick Bruel , Yvan Attal , Valérie Benguigui , Amélie Bitoun , Ruth Elkrief , Valérie Benhaim , Phillipe Lelouche , Alain Aflelou etc....many other French personallities.

[Raikaswinþs]

You are absolutely right but the difference between me and you is that I am for preservation and for superiority. But not for Hitler like superiority Why? Because in the next 50 or 100 years your grandchildren will not learn german as a foreign language but ching chong chang and indian and we need all intelligence there is to stop this.
You said your family did not invent anything. You are English for crying out loud. As all people of English descent you have big potential. The problem is that you are not exploiting it. That is the reason why China and India are rising.
I want to stop that and I am for preservation of every ethnicity in Europe. I hate word European and I am not European but Croat.
So you see we think alike but I am worried about other things among preservation of ethnicities...


I'm all for learning ching chong chang and indian. where are those languages spoken, if I may ask?

[Portukalos]

It is a common mistake to chunk the mizrahi jews into the sephardite sack. Bt technically speaking, Sephardi jews refers exclusively to Iberian jews and their descents. Which, for the most part where Caucasoid-looking in the Mediterranean sense and not extremely different from other European meds.

here what sephardic (iberian) jews looked (and look like)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Sephardi_Jews_-_mosaic.PNG

One of the most famous French singer is a Sephardi Jew from North Africa Patrick Bruel and he is always seen as "white" :
http://lechamoniard.l.e.pic.centerblog.net/kd6cnyjl.jpg

Here are some Sephardi Jewish Pied Noirs :
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=446223&postcount=52

[Portukalos]

Genetic differences between Sephardim and Ashkenazic Jews are minimal. They usually form a cluster on genetic maps.

She claims to be from Paris. But in Paris , Jews are seen as white but not European. The term European is already very ambiguous (the average Parisian don't feel connected to a Lithuanian) and Jews have a different religion , carry different lastnames , so they are seen as their own group, their own case apart

[PetiteParisienne]

It is a common mistake to chunk the mizrahi jews into the sephardite sack. Bt technically speaking, Sephardi jews refers exclusively to Iberian jews and their descents. Which, for the most part where Caucasoid-looking in the Mediterranean sense and not extremely different from other European meds.

Saying then that "The Sephardim from Spain and Portugal can be up for debate" is laughable in many sense since the Sephardim refers exclusively to those jews that root from Spain and Portugal.

Again, the ones that left for the middle east, would gradually mix with middle easterners and become middle eastern looking (like that gorgeous girl I was lucky enough to date a few times in the mid-late 2000's) . The ones that stayed in Europe would retain their Euro-Mediterranean appearance.

here what sephardic (iberian) jews looked (and look like)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Sephardi_Jews_-_mosaic.PNG

Indeed. In Israel though, the Sephardi and Misrachi are classified as 'twin' cultures.

[PetiteParisienne]

She claims to be from Paris. But in Paris , Jews are seen as white but not European. The term European is already very ambiguous (the average Parisian don't feel connected to a Lithuanian) but Jews have a different religion , carry different lastnames , so they are seen as their own group, their own case apart

I'm from the UK, but my father is from paris, and his side of the family is French and Austrian.

[Osweo]

I'd like to add something about Yiddish that might be found interesting:

Yiddish hasn't been spoken in my family for three generations on my mother's side, and four generations on my father's side. My maternal grandmother told me that her parents only spoke Yiddish when encountering other Ashkenazi Jews who did not speak Romanian. Yiddish was used as a common language amongst European Jews of different nationalities. Native tongues were spoken in the home and in all other occasions.

That only takes us to around 1900. Very recent. The situation in the shtetls of the former Recz Pospolitas was quite different.

[Hess]

here is my view, in a nutshell-

I really couldn't be bothered if their eyes are bluer than sapphires or if their hair is blonder than a polar bear's ass.


Being European involves MUCH more than just genetics- it's a culture, mentality, and way of life that Jews lack.

[PetiteParisienne]

If South Italians are considered as white , then so are Sephardi Jews (including those from North Africa who are usually very Frenchized).

Secondly ,there's usually a minsundertood. Many Sephardic Jews were culturally much more West European than Ashkenazim. But since Ashkenazi Jews have a more Germanic culture and are blonder hair , they're usually seen as more "European" but that doesn't mean Sephardi Jews from Netherlands Italy or the upper class of Morocco are less "European" in their way of life. It's just a question of standard for people. A French journalist said that the Sephardi Jewish quarter of Paris in the 70's was much more European-French in flavor than the Ashkenazi one of the 40's , as the latter imposed their Eastern European culture outside their houses , while the former assimilated completely.

In today's world, a lot of it hinges upon how religious a Jewish person is. An Ashkenazi Jew who is minimally religious or completely secular is indistinguishable from a European gentile. The same can be said for a secular Sephardic Jew of of predominantly Spanish or Portuguese heritage. Iranian Jews also consider themselves to be Sephardic. It's not just about genetics and appearance, but also about customs. Sephardic traditions and food are very different from Ashkenazi ones.

[Insuperable]

I'm all for learning ching chong chang and indian. where are those languages spoken, if I may ask?

I am surprised that British act like this. British culture touched almost every culture in the world to some point. In some time chinese culture will touch yours. Then you wont act like this. I do not care nor about yours nor chinese but if it has to be any id rather choose british.
China and whole asians are on rise.
So you see I am not for preservation of someones culture on some other indirect way.
As I have said on some thread before I know a lot people Croats or foreign who are so obsessed with Japanese culture that their wear kimono inside the house all the time. That is total opposite of what this forum stands for.
No one thinks about this.

[Portukalos]

Indeed. In Israel though, the Sephardi and Misrachi are classified as 'twin' cultures.

"Mizrahi culture" just doesn't exist. A Goergian Jew doesn't share the same culture as an Iraqi Jew , randomly taken.

[PetiteParisienne]

"Mizrahi culture" just doesn't exist. A Goergian Jew doesn't share the same culture as an Iraqi Jew , randomly taken.

Exactly my point. It's very different. One of my close friends is a Sephardic Jew of Iraqi and Iranian descent. She and a Jew for Georgia would not have much in common at all.

[Portukalos]

In today's world, a lot of it hinges upon how religious a Jewish person is. An Ashkenazi Jew who is minimally religious or completely secular is indistinguishable from a European gentile. The same can be said for a secular Sephardic Jew of of predominantly Spanish or Portuguese heritage. Iranian Jews also consider themselves to be Sephardic. It's not just about genetics and appearance, but also about customs. Sephardic traditions and food are very different from Ashkenazi ones.
The problem is that an Iranian Jew is not a Sephardi , it's just a minsunderstood from your own. Anyway , food and traditions are of course very different since Ashkenazis lived amongst Germans and Slavs.

[Portukalos]

I'm from the UK, but my father is from paris, and his side of the family is French and Austrian.

Is your farther part French of Jewish background or ethnic French Catholic ?

[PetiteParisienne]

here is my view, in a nutshell-

I really couldn't be bothered if their eyes are bluer than sapphires or if their hair is blonder than a polar bear's ass.


Being European involves MUCH more than just genetics- it's a culture, mentality, and way of life that Jews lack.

Which Jews? The Hasidic? Definitely. The Orthodox? Yes. The Reform? A little.

[PetiteParisienne]

Is your farther part French of Jewish background or ethnic French Catholic ?

My father was born in France. His parents were born in France. Two of their grandparents were born in France, one other was from Romania, and the last was from Austria. There have been gentiles in my family, as well as apostates and converts to and from Judaism. But no one in my family has been born outside of Europe.

And Catholicism came long after paganism in France.

[Portukalos]

Exactly my point. It's very different. One of my close friends is a Sephardic Jew of Iraqi and Iranian descent. She and a Jew for Georgia would not have much in common at all.

A Jew from Iran or Iraq cannot be Sephardi , it hadn't any connection to the Iberian peninsula. However a Georgian Jew is often classed as Mizrahi as a Jew from Iraq when the culture difference is like a Russian and an English.

[Portukalos]

My father was born in France. His parents were born in France. Two of their grandparents were born in France, one other was from Romania, and the last was from Austria. There have been gentiles in my family, as well as apostates and converts to and from Judaism. But no one in my family has been born outside of Europe.

And Catholicism came long after paganism in France.

So your farther doesn't know if he is fully Jew because of intra-religieus marriage within his French family? It's pretty common , Parisians of the after WW2 are often a mess of mixes.

[Mercury]

here is my view, in a nutshell-

I really couldn't be bothered if their eyes are bluer than sapphires or if their hair is blonder than a polar bear's ass.


Being European involves MUCH more than just genetics- it's a culture, mentality, and way of life that Jews lack.

Jews have been within the borders of Europe since the days of Pagan Rome. What more do they have to do in order to be considered European?

[PetiteParisienne]

A Jew from Iran or Iraq cannot be Sephardi , it hadn't any connection to the Iberian peninsula. However a Georgian Jew is often classed as Mizrahi as a Jew from Iraq when the culture difference is like a Russian and an English.

Well, you can tell her that then.

[PetiteParisienne]

So your farther doesn't know if he is fully Jew because of intra-religieus marriage within his French family? It's pretty common , Parisians of the after WW2 are often a mess of mixes.

This is where things start to become subjective. Some people consider secular Ashkenazis to be European, and some don't. Judaism is an ethno-religious group. Not a race.

[Beorn]

Jews have been within the borders of Europe since the days of Pagan Rome. What more do they have to do in order to be considered European?

Come back in another life as a European.

No one questions whether Englishmen are European. No one questions whether the French are European. No one questions whether the Germans are European, and so on..., but Everyone questions whether Jews are Europeans. Why? Because they aren't European. However much it may be argued, and however concise and critical the points may be, the resounding end result is the same: Jews aren't European.

[Portukalos]

Come back in another life as a European.

No one questions whether Englishmen are European. No one questions whether the French are European. No one questions whether the Germans are European, and so on..., but Everyone questions whether Jews are Europeans. Why? Because they aren't European. However much it may be argued, and however concise and critical the points may be, the resounding end result is the same: Jews aren't European.

There are European Jews. I agree with you Jews as a whole , as a diaspora ethnic group around the world are West Asian. Not every Jew is European.
But there are Jews who have lived in Europe or were Europeanized that they are basically European Jews as simple as that . An Ashkenazi child born in the deep woods of Lithuania is certainly not a Middle-Easterner , he is a Jew right but of the European kind.

[Beorn]

There are European Jews. I agree with you Jews as a whole , as a diaspora ethnic group around the world are West Asian. However there are Jews who have lived in Europe and/or were Europeanized that they are European Jews. An Ashkenazi child born in the deep woods of Lithuania is certainly not a Middle-Easterner , he is a Jew right but of the European kind.

How is the child European? Do you mean a European citizen?

[Albion]

Albion's list of controversial topics to avoid:


Anything to do with Ireland
South Africa and the Boer War
American politics
National Socialism


New entry: Jews

[Raikaswinþs]

I am surprised that British act like this. British culture touched almost every culture in the world to some point. In some time chinese culture will touch yours. Then you wont act like this. I do not care nor about yours nor chinese but if it has to be any id rather choose british.
China and whole asians are on rise.
So you see I am not for preservation of someones culture on some other indirect way.
As I have said on some thread before I know a lot people Croats or foreign who are so obsessed with Japanese culture that their wear kimono inside the house all the time. That is total opposite of what this forum stands for.
No one thinks about this.


I am zorry , me no underztand

[Raikaswinþs]

How is the child European? Do you mean a European citizen?

Every non Basque is just a European Citizen

[Portukalos]

Aren't Afrikaaners /Boers considered as "White Africans" or even just "South African" ? So I don't see any opposition in that case as well.

[Osweo]

Jews have been within the borders of Europe since the days of Pagan Rome. What more do they have to do in order to be considered European?

Stop identifying themselves with, and BEING identified with, this;
http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Ancient_Judah.gif

For a Jew to become European, they have to cease being a Jew. Only then can their progeny from a mixed marriage have some chance at this. Even then, the Jewish culture has to slip out of living memory.

Mercury, your comments apply to the Gypsies too.
http://www.stellasmagazine.com/img/misc/gypsies/cigani12.jpg

Without intermarrying with us, and giving up their distinctive culture, Jews remain foreign. Our respective ancestors have lived VASTLY different histories. Denying the importance of this is disrespectful of BOTH of them.

[Insuperable]

I am zorry , me no underztand

hahahaa i really do not know what I said hahah I am sorrY

[PetiteParisienne]

'Jewish culture' does not exist, because there are people from all over the world who practice the Jewish faith. The way I was brought up would not look anything like the way a Jew from Kai Feng grew up. There are certain Jewish customs that are consistent, but he same can be said for a Catholic Brit and a Catholic Mexican.

[Beorn]

'Jewish culture' does not exist, because there are people from all over the world who practice the Jewish faith.

Do Jews in Singapore worship a different God to the Jews living in West Philadelphia?

[Insuperable]

I have noticed that people tend to think that ali Jews are not white ( I admit that sometimes I can be eurocentric and I refuse to think that people I have learned about on college are not white though to some they are partially white ).
But when it comes close to considering them white people start to say how they have different culture, different way of life....
I have met over facebook people of different euro nationalities who became muslims and they live muslim way of life. Then according to some they are white but can not be considering European?

[Joe McCarthy]

Come back in another life as a European.

No one questions whether Englishmen are European. No one questions whether the French are European. No one questions whether the Germans are European, and so on..., but Everyone questions whether Jews are Europeans. Why? Because they aren't European. However much it may be argued, and however concise and critical the points may be, the resounding end result is the same: Jews aren't European.

I think we all know the squabbling that goes on about the English being European, both now from Englishmen themselves and non-English, and particularly in the past. The ones nowadays who unequivocally say they're Europeans are usually those who are trying to distance themselves from the Anglosphere, their more natural affinity, particularly the US.

I agree Jews are not Europeans. The Ashkenazim though are close enough to be easily assimilated though intermarriage, in which case they'll become Europeans over time and cease to be Jews. This is how Nietzsche recommended the Jewish Question be solved. Unfortunately, Germany ultimately opted for another 'solution', which has proven catastrophic to our civilization.

[Osweo]

'Jewish culture' does not exist, because there are people from all over the world who practice the Jewish faith. The way I was brought up would not look anything like the way a Jew from Kai Feng grew up. There are certain Jewish customs that are consistent, but he same can be said for a Catholic Brit and a Catholic Mexican.

Catholic Brits and Catholic Mexicans share common ancestors from when? Several centuries to a couple of millennia for the Iberian side, and several TENS of millennia for the Indio side. :yawn:

Some US WASP idiot who goes to Israel on holiday and 'converts' after some 'spiritual experience' is not a Jew. They're just an idiot.

Jews in England are foreign to the English. Jews in Kaifeng are foreign to the Chinks. End of story. There are many Jewish cultures, but they all go back to the same root. That diaspora peoples diverge with time and geography is no big news. Still foreigners, though. Try again, kiddo. :coffee:

[Beorn]

I think we all know the squabbling that goes on about the English being European, both now from Englishmen themselves and non-English, and particularly in the past. The ones nowadays who unequivocally say they're Europeans are usually those who are trying to distance themselves from the Anglosphere, their more natural affinity, particularly the US.

Politically and culturally, yes, but with the exception of a few fringe fruit bats, the English wouldn't argue themselves not being European in a 'racial sense'.

[Insuperable]

I think we all know the squabbling that goes on about the English being European, both now from Englishmen themselves and non-English, and particularly in the past. The ones nowadays who unequivocally say they're Europeans are usually those who are trying to distance themselves from the Anglosphere, their more natural affinity, particularly the US.

I agree Jews are not Europeans. The Ashkenazim though are close enough to be easily assimilated though intermarriage, in which case they'll become Europeans over time and cease to be Jews. This is how Nietzsche recommended the Jewish Question be solved. Unfortunately, Germany ultimately opted for another 'solution', which has proven catastrophic to our civilization.

catastrophic yes and it is the source of todays immigration to western European countries and the US because when the racist ww2 was over westerners could not refuse immigrants solely because of ww2. After ww2 massive immigration begins and people could not use nationalist card as a way of turning down the immiigrants. It is either this or Jewish agenda according to some

[Insuperable]

I think we all know the squabbling that goes on about the English being European, both now from Englishmen themselves and non-English, and particularly in the past. The ones nowadays who unequivocally say they're Europeans are usually those who are trying to distance themselves from the Anglosphere, their more natural affinity, particularly the US.

I agree Jews are not Europeans. The Ashkenazim though are close enough to be easily assimilated though intermarriage, in which case they'll become Europeans over time and cease to be Jews. This is how Nietzsche recommended the Jewish Question be solved. Unfortunately, Germany ultimately opted for another 'solution', which has proven catastrophic to our civilization.

This is not forum for the following topic but I simply could not help my self not to since you mention it
Why Brits always think about themselves as outsiders? I have noticed that English people if not all Brits are more Nordic centered when compared even to Nazis. Is this because of mock towards other non-germanic nations. I am talking rubbish to some but I still want to know is the reason this or is it cultural ( isolated ) thing
Have in mind that I do not judge you everyone would think the way you do if someone is in your place

[Albion]

I think we all know the squabbling that goes on about the English being European, both now from Englishmen themselves and non-English, and particularly in the past. The ones nowadays who unequivocally say they're Europeans are usually those who are trying to distance themselves from the Anglosphere, their more natural affinity, particularly the US.

No one disputes the English are European apart from the English themselves. :icon_lol:

Today most English people see themselves as English, British and European, but identifying as an ethnicity of Europe doesn't give us any will to be integrated into it.
On the contrary, the English travel much more often to Europe because it is more convenient, but culturally our nearest kin is the Anglosphere and most here recognise that. America is seen as the black sheep of the Anglosphere, but that's because its more distinctive than the others having developed earlier.

The English europhiles are a minority (I use the term "europhile" to refer to the EU and European federalism, not Europe the continent). They tend to be the worst sorts of people, not a patriotic bone in their body and usually quite traitorous.
They're a pessimistic bunch and all their arguments are based around the apparent strength European unity would create. However, most English people are centre right and against further EU integration and many are for leaving the EU and repairing ties to the Anglosphere.

The American media might report us to be a load of Europhiles, but it is hardly the case.


I agree Jews are not Europeans. The Ashkenazim though are close enough to be easily assimilated though intermarriage, in which case they'll become Europeans over time and cease to be Jews. This is how Nietzsche recommended the Jewish Question be solved. Unfortunately, Germany ultimately opted for another 'solution', which has proven catastrophic to our civilization.


An interesting idea, but I doubt Jews would just forget their religion. They'd hide it as they did in Spain.


Why Brits always think about themselves as outsiders?

Because islands breed insularity. This is often brushed off as just some slur, but it is true to an extent.
The British peoples have less contact with other European countries than they do with each other. The approach to Europe and North America is that they contain allies, friends and trade opportunities together with ethnic links and a few arse hole politicians.


I have noticed that English people if not all Brits are more Nordic centered when compared even to Nazis. Is this because of mock towards other non-germanic nations. I am talking rubbish to some but I still want to know is the reason this or is it cultural ( isolated ) thing
Have in mind that I do not judge you everyone would think the way you do if someone is in your place

What do you mean, distrust of foreigners? That is seen here but it can be expected, for so long the British went to other British colonies and ruled over lesser peoples in the third world instead of going to Europe.
Today they go to Europe frequently (most at least), but English culture is essentially self-confident and the English basically believe they have a good system and resent any outside influences that would argue otherwise. This self-confidence is also part of the reason for the lack of bold, open patriotism in England, the English don't feel any need to go around flag waving or boasting about their identity such as the Scots do.

The Scots can be seen as the exact opposite, they are very openly patriotic because they want to be seen as distinct from the English who are the dominant force of the Isles.

It might sound somewhat arrogant, but England is a very old nation which has never really been occupied or invaded by a more powerful state as most countries in Europe have.
The Normans can be seen as the political foundation of England, it is with them that the militaristic, highly-centralised and over-governed modern English state formed. Before them the Germanics left the basis of the government and organisation, but the Normans really developed it to the full potential.

[Joe McCarthy]

Politically and culturally, yes, but with the exception of a few fringe fruit bats, the English wouldn't argue themselves not being European in a 'racial sense'.

I agree with that. By the same token neither would an American. ;)

[Thunor]

It's not surprising that 35% - 55% of all Ashkenazi Jews are of European genes. They've lived for a very long time in Europe, and obviously picked up genes from there.

Racially speaking, most Jews look like vaguely exotic Caucasoids who stick out in a North European country. Someone else brought up Robert Oppenheimer as an example. I guess most people think of Ashkenazi Jews as "white ethnics" nowadays.

Out of all Jews, it's just the Ashkenazim who can qualify as "racially European". So I guess they could become actual Europeans if they assimilated culturally as well. So that's my opinion on this: some Jews are European, others are not.

[StonyArabia]

I heard the Sefardim are doing well in Israel itself however, on the eve of shunting the Ashkenazim aside as the dominant force there. Is my info outdated?

Not at all the Sephardim have been slowly replacig the Ashkenazim as the dominant force in Israel. This has led to a greater Sephardic influence which has brought Israel into being more Middle Eastern than European. So no your info is actually currently dated. Sephardic Jews in recent times have assimilated the more Semitic and darker skinned Mizharim and Temanim Jews who are all called Sephardic due to this and the rite they follow. However true Sephardics although more Semitic than Ashkenazim, they have also a good amount of European genetics, but now days they have become more Middle Eastern and Semitic than the Ashkenazim. The Israelite ancestry is best preserved among the Mizharim, and the Temanim are just Arabian converts, but nowdays they all became Sephardics.

[PetiteParisienne]

Do Jews in Singapore worship a different God to the Jews living in West Philadelphia?

Do Catholics in Singapore worship a different God to the Catholics living in West Philadelphia?

[Beorn]

Do Catholics in Singapore worship a different God to the Catholics living in West Philadelphia?

You tell me. It seems religious culture is up for questioning by your very self. :)

[GeistFaust]

Jews are not European even if they have ethnic and cultural ties to Europe over a while. They still are Jews in retrospect, although they are Jews of partial European identity, but I still refer to them first as Jews before I identify them as European. Jewish is their primary identity, and being European is a secondary one, and this applies to any race-mixed individual.


Actually with most of other race-mixes I would not even consider them to be part European even if they had cultural and ethnic European heritage. It does not matter whether or not Jews or other Non-Europeans lived in Europe for some time. They are still going to be considered Non-Europeans regardless, just like any European should be considered European if they settled in a Non-European country for a while.


That said a lot of Jews did like to see themselves as German, Polish, or Lithuanian once they started to integrate more into these cultures or absorbed some of these ethnicties in their bloodlines. Even then we still refer to these Jews as German Jews or Polish Jews, so it would be quite fallacious to say Jews are Europeans, because this would negate what they really are.

[PetiteParisienne]

Catholic Brits and Catholic Mexicans share common ancestors from when? Several centuries to a couple of millennia for the Iberian side, and several TENS of millennia for the Indio side. :yawn:

Some US WASP idiot who goes to Israel on holiday and 'converts' after some 'spiritual experience' is not a Jew. They're just an idiot.

Jews in England are foreign to the English. Jews in Kaifeng are foreign to the Chinks. End of story. There are many Jewish cultures, but they all go back to the same root. That diaspora peoples diverge with time and geography is no big news. Still foreigners, though. Try again, kiddo. :coffee:

Anyone who still considers people of Ashkenazi descent to be 'foreigners' is living in the Dark Ages. Assimilation is assimilation.

Anyone who converts to Judaism is very much considered to be a Jew. Jews do not proselytise, so converts to Judaism are considered quite precious in Israel and the Diaspora.

Your condescension is really unbecoming.

[PetiteParisienne]

You tell me. It seems religious culture is up for questioning by your very self. :)

Religious culture is very much up to questioning, because a person from any culture can believe whatever they want. Well, maybe not in the Arab world.

[Osweo]

Do Catholics in Singapore worship a different God to the Catholics living in West Philadelphia?

This is getting STUPID.

Converts to Judaism, in historical times, were absorbed into the Jewish people, or even converted ONLY to be able to marry into it. Malays and African Americans were converted to Catholicism in utterly different and non-analogous ways. Honestly, are you really so intellectually challenged, or are you just playing with us?

Judaism is an ethnic religion. The Jews are an ethnic category. Perhaps verging more on the superethnos level than strictly ethnos. But the blood connections are there.

Why don't you use a little of your Jew Gold to get yourself and your dad a 23 and Me genetics test. I'm sure you'll find some distinct markers linking you to your 'co-religionists'.

[PetiteParisienne]

It's not surprising that 35% - 55% of all Ashkenazi Jews are of European genes. They've lived for a very long time in Europe, and obviously picked up genes from there.

Racially speaking, most Jews look like vaguely exotic Caucasoids who stick out in a North European country. Someone else brought up Robert Oppenheimer as an example. I guess most people think of Ashkenazi Jews as "white ethnics" nowadays.

Out of all Jews, it's just the Ashkenazim who can qualify as "racially European". So I guess they could become actual Europeans if they assimilated culturally as well. So that's my opinion on this: some Jews are European, others are not.

I agree.

[PetiteParisienne]

This is getting STUPID.

Converts to Judaism, in historical times, were absorbed into the Jewish people, or even converted ONLY to be able to marry into it. Malays and African Americans were converted to Catholicism in utterly different and non-analogous ways. Honestly, are you really so intellectually challenged, or are you just playing with us?

Judaism is an ethnic religion. The Jews are an ethnic category. Perhaps verging more on the superethnos level than strictly ethnos. But the blood connections are there.

Why don't you use a little of your Jew Gold to get yourself and your dad a 23 and Me genetics test. I'm sure you'll find some distinct markers linking you to your 'co-religionists'.

Name calling. Very nice.

[Albion]

Anyone who still considers people of Ashkenazi descent to be 'foreigners' is living in the Dark Ages. Assimilation is assimilation.

Anyone who converts to Judaism is very much considered to be a Jew. Jews do not proselytise, so converts to Judaism are considered quite precious in Israel and the Diaspora.

Your condescension is really unbecoming.

The difference is that Judaism is still largely confined to the same ancestral Jewish population that it ever was with few European converts whilst Christianity is of the majority.
I think Judaism is seen as weird, that is probably one of the reasons for its lacklustre appeal to Europeans.

[PetiteParisienne]

This is not forum for the following topic but I simply could not help my self not to since you mention it
Why Brits always think about themselves as outsiders? I have noticed that English people if not all Brits are more Nordic centered when compared even to Nazis. Is this because of mock towards other non-germanic nations. I am talking rubbish to some but I still want to know is the reason this or is it cultural ( isolated ) thing
Have in mind that I do not judge you everyone would think the way you do if someone is in your place

My husband tends to identify as 'British' before 'European'. Were the UK not part of the EU, he probably wouldn't identify as being European much. Only some British people feel this way though.

[Beorn]

Religious culture is very much up to questioning, because a person from any culture can believe whatever they want. Well, maybe not in the Arab world.

You said: "'Jewish culture' does not exist, because there are people from all over the world who practice the Jewish faith."

An example of this logic: 'English culture doesn't exist because there are people from all over the world who have embraced English culture.

Therefore, English culture doesn't exist.Yes?

[PetiteParisienne]

The difference is that Judaism is still largely confined to the same ancestral Jewish population that it ever was with few European converts whilst Christianity is of the majority.
I think Judaism is seen as weird, that is probably one of the reasons for its lacklustre appeal to Europeans.

I agree with you for the most part. Judaism would be seen as less weird if it wasn't such a rarity. Jewish people have only really started fully assimilating over the past couple of hundred years, and there's a huge gap between assimilated Jews and insular religious Jews. I would not consider the latter to be white/European by any stretch.

[PetiteParisienne]

You said: "'Jewish culture' does not exist, because there are people from all over the world who practice the Jewish faith."

An example of this logic: 'English culture doesn't exist because there are people from all over the world who have embraced English culture.

Therefore, English culture doesn't exist.Yes?

'English' is neither a religion nor an ethno-religious grouping.

[Loki]

Why don't you use a little of your Jew Gold to get yourself and your dad a 23 and Me genetics test. I'm sure you'll find some distinct markers linking you to your 'co-religionists'.

:(

[Beorn]

'English' is neither a religion nor an ethno-religious grouping.

'Skipping' is not a past time enjoyed in discussions.

[Osweo]

Anyone who still considers people of Ashkenazi descent to be 'foreigners' is living in the Dark Ages. Assimilation is assimilation.

Anyone who converts to Judaism is very much considered to be a Jew. Jews do not proselytise, so converts to Judaism are considered quite precious in Israel and the Diaspora.

Your condescension is really unbecoming.

Turn the telly on some time, and you'll see that the magical wonderful golden age of Light and Justice and Equality is drawing to a hurried end. Your 'dark ages' is just business as usual, now that the utopianism of the last few decades is cracking under the weight of reality. The ethnic question has re-emerged, sharper than ever. That history is a story of emergence from darkness into light was just a naive progressive fantasy.

'People of Ashkenazi descent'... lol. I'm a person of English descent. Strangely enough, we just call ourselves 'English'. How come you lads get special rules? :bowlol:

Anyroad, you don't think you're English or owt, do you1?!!?! :eek:

[Loki]

Anyroad, you don't think you're English or owt, do you1?!!?! :eek:

Would an English person call herself Parisienne? It would be like blasphemy. :shrug:

[PetiteParisienne]

'Skipping' is not a past time enjoyed in discussions.

Forgive me. I thought you'd be able to make the leap.

[Joe McCarthy]

This is not forum for the following topic but I simply could not help my self not to since you mention it
Why Brits always think about themselves as outsiders? I have noticed that English people if not all Brits are more Nordic centered when compared even to Nazis. Is this because of mock towards other non-germanic nations. I am talking rubbish to some but I still want to know is the reason this or is it cultural ( isolated ) thing
Have in mind that I do not judge you everyone would think the way you do if someone is in your place

I'm an American but speaking as one that has obvious close ancestral-cultural ties to England as well as having lived there and been involved with an English woman. I'll say that historically England has seen the Continent as the source of trouble, and the English speaking peoples as their solution. There is also the problems with France, and the English often associate Europe with France and the French have tried to say the English are not really European in outlook.

Some of it is based in Anglo supremacism (we're too good for them, they'll say). Some of it is based in many Continentals themselves not seeing the English as Europeans.

[Beorn]

Forgive me. I thought you'd be able to make the leap.

:coffee: My previous question still stands open for an answer.

[Loki]

She's probably more English than I am ... and that says a lot ... I'm probably closer to the Queen in many respects than my Essex lady friend :D :p

[GeistFaust]

Anyone who still considers people of Ashkenazi descent to be 'foreigners' is living in the Dark Ages. Assimilation is assimilation.

Anyone who converts to Judaism is very much considered to be a Jew. Jews do not proselytise, so converts to Judaism are considered quite precious in Israel and the Diaspora.

Your condescension is really unbecoming.


Just being of European descent does not make Jews European anymore than the fact. I have German and Irish descent makes me either German or Irish. I might feel like I am more of something than I really am, but this is just the fate of race-mixed or ethnic-mixed people. Its not a good or bad thing, because it is what it is, and it is good to be proud of your European descent.

In my mind being Jewish sometimes coincides with being Jewish in the ethnical sense, but its not mutually exclusive, since everything is a process of becoming more or less whether it be artifical or natural via Heraclitus. A lot of Ashkernazis were fleeing all over Europe during the Middle Ages, even up to the Enlightenment.

None of them were officially settled in a specific country for a while, and many were killed during the Medieval Periods during the persecution of Jews. A lot of Jews lived in isolated enclaves within certain European nations, and had their own cultural lifestyle isolated from the surrounding culture. It was not until later after the Enlightenment where Jews were forced to adopt the surnames of Europeans, and officially adapt into their cultures.


Some Jews would affiliate more as Europeans, even though they were not, like Boaz. There were some who still considered themselves as more Jewish, and I don't have the data to show how this all correlates to their religious affiliation and the degree of Jewish blood they had or not.


In retrospect Jews never truly integrated into a lot of European cultures, because they never desired it or they never had the time to, because they were moving around all the time.


The couple that did are generally referred to as their European ethnicity + Jewish, so it would be fallacious to negate this part as I said. Even if they are part European in culture, identity, or both does not mean that they are part Non-European in their background via their Jewish bloodlines at the minimum.


I think its time to be honest, and the cold fact is that people with a Jewish ethnic background, or even a religious affiliation can't be considered truly or authentically European in whole. Usually if you have a cultural or religious affiliation with Judaism you have a Jewish ethnic connection, although this is not always the case as I stated earlier.


The point is though you can't consider yourself European if you have only European descent, but you are of Jewish bloodlines as well. Its also hard to consider yourself truly European if you believe in Judaism or practice Jewish cultural traditions, which applies to all European muslims as well.

[PetiteParisienne]

Turn the telly on some time, and you'll see that the magical wonderful golden age of Light and Justice and Equality is drawing to a hurried end. Your 'dark ages' is just business as usual, now that the utopianism of the last few decades is cracking under the weight of reality. The ethnic question has re-emerged, sharper than ever. That history is a story of emergence from darkness into light was just a naive progressive fantasy.

'People of Ashkenazi descent'... lol. I'm a person of English descent. Strangely enough, we just call ourselves 'English'. How come you lads get special rules? :bowlol:

Anyroad, you don't think you're English or owt, do you1?!!?! :eek:

'Dark Ages' is a turn of phrase referring to the pre-Renaissance era. Perhaps I just like to see the good in humanity, but I don't consider ignorance and fanaticism to be 'business as usual'.

Ashkenazis are a European ethnic group. I was born in England, so I could be called 'English', though I am not of English descent. I was simply born here. Neither my mother nor my father are English. My mother is Romanian and my father is French. Therefore I am of Romanian and French descent.

[Loki]

Btw Ossie is not nearly as menacing in real life as he is in the e-world :D :p

[Styggnacke]

Here's some genetics for ya':
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-O31KYx5a1gw/Tp0jiDC_kNI/AAAAAAAAAKA/mDqzpcMuynI/s1600/Krupa89372-BGA4.png

^As you clearly see, Ashkenazi Jews are outside of the European reference populations cluster. There are some other McDonald PCA plots where Jews are clustering with the pseudo-European Cypriots (who aren't in the European cluster), but I couldn't find those with Google search.

Source: Dr. Doug McDonald

[Beorn]

Ashkenazis are a European ethnic group. I was born in England, so I could be called 'English', though I am not of English descent. I was simply born here. Neither my mother nor my father are English. My mother is Romanian and my father is French. Therefore I am of Romanian and French descent.

I'm English. I should be called English.


.....

ah whatever. Another foreign type bleating on .

[Osweo]

Name calling. Very nice.
Ignoring difficult questions that challenge your faulty reasoning. Very nice. :coffee:


:(
Awwww....
:kiss2:

[Loki]

Here's some genetics for ya':
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-O31KYx5a1gw/Tp0jiDC_kNI/AAAAAAAAAKA/mDqzpcMuynI/s1600/Krupa89372-BGA4.png

^As you clearly see, Ashkenazi Jews are outside of the European reference populations cluster. There are some other McDonald PCA plots where Jews are clustering with the pseudo-European Cypriots (who aren't in the European cluster), but I couldn't find those with Google search.

Source: Dr. Doug McDonald

Closer to Mediterranean Europeans than Georgians!! :eek:

[Sicilianu101]

Here's some genetics for ya':
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-O31KYx5a1gw/Tp0jiDC_kNI/AAAAAAAAAKA/mDqzpcMuynI/s1600/Krupa89372-BGA4.png

^As you clearly see, Ashkenazi Jews are outside of the European reference populations cluster. There are some other McDonald PCA plots where Jews are clustering with the pseudo-European Cypriots (who aren't in the European cluster), but I couldn't find those with Google search.

Source: Dr. Doug McDonald

Sicilians, Southern Italians, and Cypriots are not on this chart. They would bridge the gap.. ;)

[PetiteParisienne]

Btw Ossie is not nearly as menacing in real life as he is in the e-world :D :p

I don't find him menacing, thankfully. He's just not very sportsmanlike.

[Styggnacke]

Closer to Mediterranean Europeans than Georgians!! :eek:
Well, yes. Ashkenazi Jews may be extremely ethnocentric and endogamous in comparision to their European neighbours, but there have at least been some mixing with the goyim.

[PetiteParisienne]

Ignoring difficult questions that challenge your faulty reasoning. Very nice. :coffee:


Awwww....
:kiss2:

I don't find them difficult, I'm just not going to continue wasting my breath on someone who resorts to bullying.

[Albion]

Why don't you use a little of your Jew Gold to get yourself and your dad a 23 and Me genetics test. I'm sure you'll find some distinct markers linking you to your 'co-religionists'.

Jew Gold. :D I could do with some of that. :rolleyes:

Personally I don't know what to think. I see some Jewish people who I despise, mostly greedy, corporate, exploiting types, but then I see the majority who are just like the rest of us.
It is easy to say that these "bad Jews" are the result of the traits of the Jewish people, but when we look at our own people in such situations of influence we see how many of them are corrupted by power too.

There is probably a disproportionate amount of "bad Jews", the exploitative people who are the stereotype, but this is perhaps more the result of Jews having disproportionate access to such positions of power because of their past situation.

I hope I'm making some sense.

But as I said, most of them are decent people who don't want to cause any trouble and integrate and contribute well to society. Compare Jews to Muslims in Britain and I certainly know which group I prefer. Jews any day.

Then there's the problem of identity. This is an issue I haven't been able to decide on yet largely because it has to be a Jewish decision. I'm not sure whether Jews can ever be English.
On one hand you could argue it is just a religion, but then again it has all the strings attached - the history, the distinct sub-culture and identity, the siege mentality.
I'm trying to be impartial here, I have no fondness for Jews but I can hardly be said to hate them, if anything it's more a general indifference.
Most Jews in Britain identify as "British" I believe though, but that is just a nationality which embraces the various native and non-native ethnic groups so you might as well call yourself a citizen of the UN....

The native British ethnicities formed from old, extinct ethnicities and tribes with smaller elements from elsewhere. The problem is that the Jews have never really been accepted into one of them.
In Wales there was a minority Flemish presence, various French presences in England throughout history such as Norman and Huegenot (French Protestant). But as such a distinctive sub-culture the Jews have never fully become a member of one of the native ethnicities. Non-practising Jews are probably an exception, but it kind of defeats the purpose of the argument when they have to give up the religion the cherish so dearly to assimilate fully.


So in essence I don't know entirely what to think, so I'm rather on the fence about it at the moment until convinced otherwise.


Anyway, those are my thoughts on the issue in Britain at least, sorry for the long-winded post.

[Styggnacke]

Sicilians, Southern Italians, and Cypriots are not on this chart. They would bridge the gap.. ;)

Sicilians, Southern Italians, and Cypriots - Semitic (and a bit North African too, me thinks) admixed Europeans

Ashkenazi Jews - European admixed Semites

:p

[Loki]

Awwww....
:kiss2:

No homo pls :stop














well ... maybe a little bro-love can go a long way :embarrassed

[Osweo]

'Dark Ages' is a turn of phrase referring to the pre-Renaissance era. Perhaps I just like to see the good in humanity, but I don't consider ignorance and fanaticism to be 'business as usual'.
Dark Ages primarily refer to obscure periods for which written sources are patchy. In Britain it mostly means that between the departure of the Legions and the arrival of the Saxons.

I've never heard it used for the High Mediaeval period as you imply here.

And ignorance and fanaticism is pretty much the natural state of mankind. You and your cousin Marx notwithstanding.

Ashkenazis are a European ethnic group.
Not a single actual European ethnic group has failed to violently refute that rather insolent claim at some time or other. :coffee:


I was born in England, so I could be called 'English',
No. Just NO. :coffee:

though I am not of English descent. I was simply born here. Neither my mother nor my father are English. My mother is Romanian and my father is French. Therefore I am of Romanian and French descent.
Insulting Rumanians, French AND English now. Nice one. :ohwell:


Closer to Mediterranean Europeans than Georgians!! :eek:
They are a group of dual origins. As such, they show a 'pull' from both sides in the mix when placed on such a chart. The European blood that the Jews have absorbed is pulling them closer to us. The same could be said of many Blacks with some Euro ancestry from the slavery period.

[Thunor]

Sicilians, Southern Italians, and Cypriots - Semitic (and a bit North African too, me thinks) admixed Europeans
Were the Cypriots ever Europeans proper, or just natives of that island next-door to Israel who just happen to speak Greek? I heard many different things from the Greeks on the forum in that other thread, so I'm not really sure what they are.

(I also agree about the Sicilians, I've seen some very racially questionable half-Arab types among them.)


Ashkenazi Jews - European admixed Semites
Indeed. I think the question here is: at what point do they stop being Semites and start being Europeans?

So that's pretty much my opinion - some Jews are more European, others are more Semitic.

[GeistFaust]

Religious culture is very much up to questioning, because a person from any culture can believe whatever they want. Well, maybe not in the Arab world.



I don't think its up for questioning at all. I think a person can not be considered truly European if they are not European in both genetic orientation, mode of conduct(Which includes traditions, cultural rituals and practices, and religious practices), mentality(Which is shaped by the former), and finally language.


Language probably plays the most essential role at a substratum level, but its mutually inclusive as being an important matter along with the previous criteria. If you are Muslim you are not submitting your mode of conduct to the nature of your genetic orientation, which should coincide in possessing a certain European mentality.


A mentality which is extremely hard to form when one acts, believes, and thinks like a Muslim. If anything it is contradictory in its very nature to adhere to Muslim beliefs, and to incorporate it in a European culture by European peoples. This is because Islam was a religion practiced by Non-European peoples in situ.


This means the mentality and language which shaped and constructed the mode of conduct relating to the Islam religion is not European whatsoever. I think that it is resonable enough to say that if a genetic European practices an Eastern religion can not be considered truly European.


A person who practices Christianity though, although it originally takes its root in a Semitic thought and mentality can be considered European. This is because Christianity was structured, integrated and grounded in European cultures going back for almost a 2 whole Milleniums.


It was used as a tool for political, militaristic, cultural, and social affairs. It was shaped by people of largely European descent, at least its core dogma, laws, and doctrine. Its mentality and mode of conduct reflects linguistic nature of the people, which coincides and arose with a people of a certain genetic orientation, namely the European peoples.


I think its quite simple when you think of it, and Pagans and Agnostic/Atheists/Pagans can be considered European as well if they are at least of European origins in a genetic sense. Its impossible to be Jewish, Islam, or Buddisht and to act and be a truly European person if you are one.


Just like its contradictory to be Jewish, and to not believe in the Jewish religion. That said this might be too conservative of a viewpoint, since definitions are expanding in response to the dynamic changes in the social and cultural orientation of European and Jewish peoples in the modern era.

[Loki]

Well, yes. Ashkenazi Jews may be extremely ethnocentric and endogamous in comparision to their European neighbours, but there have at least been some mixing with the goyim.

You sure that plot is only for Ashkenazim? :) Not disagreeing, just checking. But of course Ashkenazim would be closer to Europeans genetically than other Jews, because of long intermixing and living besides Europeans.

Anyroad (Ossieism) good night and have fun. Loki out :thumb001:

[Portukalos]

Not at all the Sephardim have been slowly replacig the Ashkenazim as the dominant force in Israel. This has led to a greater Sephardic influence which has brought Israel into being more Middle Eastern than European. So no your info is actually currently dated. Sephardic Jews in recent times have assimilated the more Semitic and darker skinned Mizharim and Temanim Jews who are all called Sephardic due to this and the rite they follow. However true Sephardics although more Semitic than Ashkenazim, they have also a good amount of European genetics, but now days they have become more Middle Eastern and Semitic than the Ashkenazim. The Israelite ancestry is best preserved among the Mizharim, and the Temanim are just Arabian converts, but nowdays they all became Sephardics.

I disagree with you. Ashkenazim are still the dominant force of Israel. Ashkenazi Jews are like 48% in terms of numbers while Mizrahi/Sephardic are 50% but Ashkenazim still are dominating the politics. However you are wrong cause in the beginning (in the 70's) when the Jews arrived in Israel , Ashkenazim didn't make the effort to distinct Jews by their religious rite , thus Jews from Greece who were Sephardic were counted as Ashkenazim because they came from Nazi occuped Europe and the chief Rabbi of Iraqi Jews was declared as Sephardic chief , despite the rite difference. Now , it has changed. The term Sephardic is only applied to Jews of North African and South European Jewish ancestry because of their clear connection with Spain and it has became a synonym of them. On the other hand Yemenite Jews are never considered as Sephardic , then you have Caucasian Jews who form a community and then all of from Iraq and neighbours areas.

[Raikaswinþs]

Do Jews in Singapore worship a different God to the Jews living in West Philadelphia?

Do Christians from Guatemala worship the same god that Christians from England?:fponder:

[PetiteParisienne]

Here are some other maps of where Ashkenazis cluster.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TA_tjcMrcnI/AAAAAAAACb0/iMP8YJM3D8E/s1600/pca.jpg

http://theoccidentalobserver.net/tooblog/?cat=36

[PetiteParisienne]

Do Christians from Guatemala worship the same god that Christians from England?:fponder:

Does the Pope sh*t in the woods? :D

[Styggnacke]

Were the Cypriots ever Europeans proper, or just natives of that island next-door to Israel who just happen to speak Greek? I heard many different things from the Greeks on the forum in that other thread, so I'm not really sure what they are.
To be honest, my knowledge about Cypriots is limited.

(I also agree about the Sicilians, I've seen some very racially questionable half-Arab types among them.)
You mean like him:
http://www.krisvdv.net/pixelpost/images/20070916111234_sicilian_man_sigar.jpg
:p

I'd say that Sicilians are one very diverse bunch of people.

Indeed. I think the question here is: at what point do they stop being Semites and start being Europeans?
Good question: When did they become European? Did they ever become European? I don't know. I'm a bit ambiguous when it comes to the Juice.

So that's pretty much my opinion - some Jews are more European, others are more Semitic.
I agree.

[GeistFaust]

'Dark Ages' is a turn of phrase referring to the pre-Renaissance era. Perhaps I just like to see the good in humanity, but I don't consider ignorance and fanaticism to be 'business as usual'.

Ashkenazis are a European ethnic group. I was born in England, so I could be called 'English', though I am not of English descent. I was simply born here. Neither my mother nor my father are English. My mother is Romanian and my father is French. Therefore I am of Romanian and French descent.



This is the problem with the way the public defines the identity of a people in a specific country. Its based more on just having citizenship, which completely runs in contradiction with how people have identified themselves over the age. This is because liberals and other scumbags have reduced the identity of a people to merely a social construct, instead of realizing it as a self-conscious and intrinsic value.


The Self-Conscious and Intrinsic value of a people's identity lies in the race-consciousness, which resonates and reflects itself from and towards the language and culture of a people. If one shares a similarity in language, culture, and ethnic background with only a margin of difference they share a similar self-conscious identity.


That said today's borders do not reflect this self-conscious identity which exists among certain peoples. Civic Nationalism is not a viable solution to identify someone's background, but only an illegitimate classification which the elitists and intellectuals of previous generations and this generation advocate for.


This was all done to open up the boundaries of nations to a global economy, which would be runned by powerful Plutocrats and Businessmen, who want to make as much money off this open-ended idea regarding national identity.


The ignorance and Fanaticism does not have to do with people who are merely speaking the truth, but those who wish to deny it by saying they are something when they are not. Most people do not realize that their identity is now open ended and can be liberally interpreted due to the fact that powerful and greedy men want to use you as an instrument for their money flow and power.


They in retrospect want to deride your true and authentic identity, and to undermine it by re-constructing it around a civic nationalism, which does not account for self-conscious or instrinsic meaning. You are not only advocating for an idea that runs contradictory with who you are, it negates a part of you, which is inclusively essential to your being.


The extent to which it is is unknown to me, but you can not state one side of the story and forget another. You are affirming the A is now B, when you have to affirm A as not equaling B, and thus only containing a part of B. It might be better off if you never mentioned that they are Jews, and just list them Europeans.


The term Ashkernazi seems to be of no use or meaning if they are already Europeans by default due to their partial European ancestry, linguistic ties, and cultural assimilation.


Jews are Jews and Europeans are Europeans, and if they are mixed then they are partially both to some extent or another. But A is not B if its only partially itself and B, and you can use the partial inclusion of B as an excuse to negate the A portion contained by B and within it.

[PetiteParisienne]

I don't think its up for questioning at all. I think a person can not be considered truly European if they are not European in both genetic orientation, mode of conduct(Which includes traditions, cultural rituals and practices, and religious practices), mentality(Which is shaped by the former), and finally language.


Language probably plays the most essential role at a substratum level, but its mutually inclusive as being an important matter along with the previous criteria. If you are Muslim you are not submitting your mode of conduct to the nature of your genetic orientation, which should coincide in possessing a certain European mentality.


A mentality which is extremely hard to form when one acts, believes, and thinks like a Muslim. If anything it is contradictory in its very nature to adhere to Muslim beliefs, and to incorporate it in a European culture by European peoples. This is because Islam was a religion practiced by Non-European peoples in situ.


This means the mentality and language which shaped and constructed the mode of conduct relating to the Islam religion is not European whatsoever. I think that it is resonable enough to say that if a genetic European practices an Eastern religion can not be considered truly European.


A person who practices Christianity though, although it originally takes its root in a Semitic thought and mentality can be considered European. This is because Christianity was structured, integrated and grounded in European cultures going back for almost a 2 whole Milleniums.


It was used as a tool for political, militaristic, cultural, and social affairs. It was shaped by people of largely European descent, at least its core dogma, laws, and doctrine. Its mentality and mode of conduct reflects linguistic nature of the people, which coincides and arose with a people of a certain genetic orientation, namely the European peoples.


I think its quite simple when you think of it, and Pagans and Agnostic/Atheists/Pagans can be considered European as well if they are at least of European origins in a genetic sense. Its impossible to be Jewish, Islam, or Buddisht and to act and be a truly European person if you are one.


Just like its contradictory to be Jewish, and to not believe in the Jewish religion. That said this might be too conservative of a viewpoint, since definitions are expanding in response to the dynamic changes in the social and cultural orientation of European and Jewish peoples in the modern era.

I absolutely agree with you that language is hugely indicative of a person's cultural mindset. Hasidic Jews speak Yiddish, and I would not consider them to be white or European. Most practicing Jews keep kosher. That is also markedly un-European. My personal take on how a person can be 'Jewish' without practicing Judaism is because Judaism is also an ethnic subgroup. This is precisely why I identify as having Jewish heritage. I'm sorry that this response was extremely brief, but I'm tired and need to go to bed. I will try to respond in full tomorrow.

[Albion]

I'll say that historically England has seen the Continent as the source of trouble

:thumb001: Joe, you're absolutely right. Just look at how the English view the EU for a start.


and the English speaking peoples as their solution.

Indeed, America is the close ally, Australia is the alternative life and Canada and NZ are the kin.


There is also the problems with France, and the English often associate Europe with France and the French have tried to say the English are not really European in outlook.

Agreed. Some of the older, less well-informed folks will blame anything the EU does on the French.
Then they go and holiday there. :rolleyes:


Some of it is based in Anglo supremacism (we're too good for them, they'll say). Some of it is based in many Continentals themselves not seeing the English as Europeans.

Western Euros have an inferiority complex towards America and the Anglosphere. They just see the Anglosphere as Britain craving America's attention instead of a cultural entity.
Britain seeking to remove itself from European affairs must mean that it is sneaking off to Washington. :rolleyes2:


Ashkenazis are a European ethnic group. I was born in England, so I could be called 'English', though I am not of English descent. I was simply born here. Neither my mother nor my father are English. My mother is Romanian and my father is French. Therefore I am of Romanian and French descent.

Maybe Jews are best treated as a distinct identity that transcends borders like the Aromanians or the much less welcome Roma.

There's arguments either way. Damn, Jews are confusing. :rolleyes:


Closer to Mediterranean Europeans than Georgians!!

It shows the whole Israel thing is probably a lie as far as the Ashkenazi are concerned, they must be largely Khazar converts.


Sicilians, Southern Italians, and Cypriots - Semitic (and a bit North African too, me thinks) admixed Europeans

They prefer the term "Neolithic farmers". ;) Some people say R1b and a arrived off the steppes, so should we be "Iranian Nomads"?
And I is related to J distantly too.


Insulting Rumanians, French AND English now. Nice one.

In what way?

[Portukalos]

Closer to Mediterranean Europeans than Georgians!! :eek:

Not surprising considering that Ashkenazim entered Europe via Italy and Greece before :) and all the tralala Greek-Roman-Jewish dramas stories of I love you and me neither that happenned in Antiquity . The Map doesn't even include Balkans and South Italy who bridge the gap you see between Tuscans , Romanians and Jews.

[Osweo]

This is precisely why I identify as having Jewish heritage.

Do you only HAVE something? Are you unable or unwilling to BE!?! Why the bizarre word games? You are, at the end of the day, a Jewess, no? :shrug:

[Albion]

Were the Cypriots ever Europeans proper, or just natives of that island next-door to Israel who just happen to speak Greek? I heard many different things from the Greeks on the forum in that other thread, so I'm not really sure what they are.

(I also agree about the Sicilians, I've seen some very racially questionable half-Arab types among them.)

Well no one would call the Greeks European if they hadn't have founded the civilisation. :D South East Europe shows a lot of Neolithic genes derived from the Middle East but it is unfair to label the people as "Middle Eastern".
They've mixed with other European groups and have European culture and traits. If you labelled Greeks as Middle Eastern then you'd have to label all the other neolithic farming haplogroups in Europe as the same, so you'd get Middle Easterners at more than 10% in Germany for instance.

To be fair though, many of the subclades of these haplogroups show version specific to Europe and to certain regions of Europe. These subclades are barely ever found in the Middle East.

Just look at R1b and R1a - would you say that Slavs are Afghans because both have R1a although the subclades are totally different?
What about R1b in Ireland and Turkey?

[PetiteParisienne]

This is the problem with the way the public defines the identity of a people in a specific country. Its based more on just having citizenship, which completely runs in contradiction with how people have identified themselves over the age. This is because liberals and other scumbags have reduced the identity of a people to merely a social construct, instead of realizing it as a self-conscious and intrinsic value.


The Self-Conscious and Intrinsic value of a people's identity lies in the race-consciousness, which resonates and reflects itself from and towards the language and culture of a people. If one shares a similarity in language, culture, and ethnic background with only a margin of difference they share a similar self-conscious identity.


That said today's borders do not reflect this self-conscious identity which exists among certain peoples. Civic Nationalism is not a viable solution to identify someone's background, but only an illegitimate classification which the elitists and intellectuals of previous generations and this generation advocate for.


This was all done to open up the boundaries of nations to a global economy, which would be runned by powerful Plutocrats and Businessmen, who want to make as much money off this open-ended idea regarding national identity.


The ignorance and Fanaticism does not have to do with people who are merely speaking the truth, but those who wish to deny it by saying they are something when they are not. Most people do not realize that their identity is now open ended and can be liberally interpreted due to the fact that powerful and greedy men want to use you as an instrument for their money flow and power.


They in retrospect want to deride your true and authentic identity, and to undermine it by re-constructing it around a civic nationalism, which does not account for self-conscious or instrinsic meaning. You are not only advocating for an idea that runs contradictory with who you are, it negates a part of you, which is inclusively essential to your being.


The extent to which it is is unknown to me, but you can not state one side of the story and forget another. You are affirming the A is now B, when you have to affirm A as not equaling B, and thus only containing a part of B. It might be better off if you never mentioned that they are Jews, and just list them Europeans.


The term Ashkernazi seems to be of no use or meaning if they are already Europeans by default due to their partial European ancestry, linguistic ties, and cultural assimilation.


Jews are Jews and Europeans are Europeans, and if they are mixed then they are partially both to some extent or another. But A is not B if its only partially itself and B, and you can use the partial inclusion of B as an excuse to negate the A portion contained by B and within it.

Again, apologies for the brief reply to your wonderfully thoughtful post.

I have mentioned my Jewish heritage because I know that it is a significant point of contention to racially and ethnically minded people. If it came down to war, I stand with Europe now and forever.

[GeistFaust]

I absolutely agree with you that language is hugely indicative of a person's cultural mindset. Hasidic Jews speak Yiddish, and I would not consider them to be white or European. Most practicing Jews keep kosher. That is also markedly un-European. My personal take on how a person can be 'Jewish' without practicing Judaism is because Judaism is also an ethnic subgroup. This is precisely why I identify as having Jewish heritage. I'm sorry that this response was extremely brief, but I'm tired and need to go to bed. I will try to respond in full tomorrow.



I think if you have a certain heritage this does not negate the possibility of adopting a different language or culture, which is European in nature. That said even if you have only partial European ancestry you can not negate the fact you are part Jewish.

A Jew who takes on a different language and culture is still a Jew, especially the closer they are from diverging and abandoning the language, modes of conduct, and mentality which makes them truly Jewish.

The longer the duration of time they have separated themselves from Jewish languages, modes of conduct, and mentality does not negate their Jewish background, especially if they remain a pure blood more or less.


They still are Non-Indo-European even though they believe in creeds, practice traditions, and speak a code of communication which coincides and has arisen out of Indo-European peoples.

[Thunor]

I mostly agree with Anachronistic about teh J00s. They're at the blurry limit between European and Semitic, and some are more of the former while others are more of the latter. The majority of Ashkenazim can pass as white in the racial sense. Are they culturally European? That's up for debate.


Just look at R1b and R1a - would you say that Slavs are Afghans because both have R1a although the subclades are totally different? What about R1b in Ireland and Turkey?
Well, the fact that the Irish and Turks share some haplogroups (dating back to ancient times) doesn't make them the same race. We can talk about haplogroups and genetic links all we want - at the end of the day, my eyes and common sense can judge who is European and who's not.

[PetiteParisienne]

Do you only HAVE something? Are you unable or unwilling to BE!?! Why the bizarre word games? You are, at the end of the day, a Jewess, no? :shrug:

I do not practice the Jewish faith. I am a pagan. I don't understand why this is so difficult to grasp. I cannot BE a fraction.

[Osweo]

Damn, Jews are confusing. :rolleyes:

Only if you LET them confuse you... ;)



It shows the whole Israel thing is probably a lie as far as the Ashkenazi are concerned, they must be largely Khazar converts.

Not the first time I've seen you repeating this garbage. :tsk:

Comrade, the Khazars were a Turko-Caucasian group, and looked probably something like modern Turkmen.
http://www.sfnblog.com/industry_trends/TurkmenPresident.jpg
http://images.travelpod.com/users/robertasiapac/1.1286796863.a-friendly-turkmen-train.jpg

Deriving our modern Ashkenazim from them, when the former are a bunch of pallid hook-nosed garbled-German-speaking city-folk is just retarded.

Or can you picture Woody Allen and Boris Berezovski riding ponies across the steppe? :coffee:

[PetiteParisienne]

I mostly agree with Anachronistic about teh J00s. They're at the blurry limit between European and Semitic, and some are more of the former while others are more of the latter. The majority of Ashkenazim can pass as white in the racial sense. Are they culturally European? That's up for debate.


Well, the fact that the Irish and Turks share some haplogroups (dating back to ancient times) doesn't make them the same race. We can talk about haplogroups and genetic links all we want - at the end of the day, my eyes and common sense can judge who is European and who's not.

The 'walk like a duck/talk like a duck'-minded people tend to accept non-practicing Ashkenazis as white Europeans.

[Beorn]

Or can you picture Woody Allen and Boris Berezovski riding ponies across the steppe? :coffee:

http://bulk.destructoid.com/ul/205014-MrEd.jpg

[Osweo]

cannot BE a fraction

Would you be so kind as to remind me of the fractions at play in yourself? I thought you were at least 3/4 Jewish, no?

[PetiteParisienne]

Only if you LET them confuse you... ;)


If you subscribe to the belief that Jews are tricksters, you may as well believe that they are the descendants of the Khazars, too. And that Jews have 'Jew Gold', use the blood of gentile children to make unleavened bread, poison wells, caused the Black Plague, are actually in favour of the Muslim take-over of Europe, want to enslave all non-Jews, poison non-Kosher food to keep non-Jews weak, that Jews have ESP with all other Jews, etc.

[Hess]

(I also agree about the Sicilians, I've seen some very racially questionable half-Arab types among them.)

Racially questionable by what standard? Sicilians are ethnic Europeans, how they look is irrelevant. Any look that is found in Sicily is part of natural European diversity and I, for one, fail to see the problem with that.

[GeistFaust]

Again, apologies for the brief reply to your wonderfully thoughtful post.

I have mentioned my Jewish heritage because I know that it is a significant point of contention to racially and ethnically minded people. If it came down to war, I stand with Europe now and forever.



It is fine, and don't be too self-conscious here. We are glad you are proud of your European descent, and willing to attempt to preserve truly and authentically European cultures, ethnicties, and languages. It is good that you stand only with Europe, and not with anything foreign, and for that your Jewish heritage can be overlooked in part.


That said I do not think I could overlook any other people with partial Non-Indo-European ancestry when it comes to preserving European ancestry. I would not accept a pure Jew or majority Jewish person who wishes to protect and preserve the European identity, because this is unnatural and contradictory with their genetic nature.


But protecting the European identity means preserving in all of its aspects whether it be speaking the language, practicing the modes of conducts, and self-consciously embracing the mentality. Most importantly this mode of protecting the European identity should be done by someone of Indo-European background, because protecting these three modes includes protecting and preserving the Indo-European background from foreign genetic admixture.


This can only be done by people who are of a pure genetic European background, and thus it seems appropriate that people are more closely of genetic European background to want to protect and preserve the other three modes of European identity.


That said certain exceptions can be made, as Goerring's Green laws showed us, and I am more than glad to have you here. We need more educated, charming, and well-behaved individuals to join in the cause, but primarily on the basis they qualify to a great extent on the four modes of European identity.


I just think that it is unnecessary to equate Ashkernazis with Europeans, even if they have partial ancestry, and its not right in the name of the preservation of the European identity to negate their Jewish component or to deny it.

[Beorn]

If you subscribe to the belief that Jews are tricksters, you may as well believe that they are the descendants of the Khazars, too. And that Jews have 'Jew Gold', use the blood of gentile children to make unleavened bread, poison wells, caused the Black Plague, are actually in favour of the Muslim take-over of Europe, want to enslave all non-Jews, poison non-Kosher food to keep non-Jews weak, that Jews have ESP with all other Jews, etc.

I thought you had gone to bed?

Jew trick number one, apparently. :coffee:

[PetiteParisienne]

Would you be so kind as to remind me of the fractions at play in yourself? I thought you were at least 3/4 Jewish, no?

There's no point. I'm tired of running around in circles with you. We're going to have to agree to disagree here. Our stance on who is European and who is not is different, and that's ok.

[Portukalos]

They still are Non-Indo-European even though they believe in creeds, practice traditions, and speak a code of communication which coincides and has arisen out of Indo-European peoples.

You does seem to attach alot of importance to Indo-Europeaness but it comes out Jews are actually closer to Europeans genetically speaking than Persians or Armenians are. It's just that Jews are not a pure bunch composed of pure Semites as described in the racialist books of the 19th which are usually politically biased. Modern Jews are mixed with Mediterranean-European , Caucasian , and whatsoever blood.

[PetiteParisienne]

I thought you had gone to bed?

Jew trick number one, apparently. :coffee:

You really like that snarky coffee emoticon.

I'm awake because I have a baby who is teething. I went upstairs, brushed my teeth, and then he decided it was playtime.

[Styggnacke]

Racially questionable by what standard? Sicilians are ethnic Europeans, how they look is irrelevant. Any look that is found in Sicily is part of natural European diversity and I, for one, fail to see the problem with that.
Didn't you see that Sicilian wog in my post? Does he really fit in the "natural European diversity"? :rolleyes:

[Mercury]

I would like to point out that Europe is somewhat subjective, and it was only recently British began to think of themselves as European.

[StonyArabia]

Didn't you see that Sicilian wog in my post? Does he really fit in the "natural European diversity"? :rolleyes:

That dude can fit in Arabia from Jordan to Yemen honestly. Sicily has very large amount of Arabian admix, from the Central Arabian tribes that settled. Read the Arabian epics which describes the movement into the island.

[Beorn]

You really like that snarky coffee emoticon.

It serves my needs as and when :D


I would like to point out that Europe is somewhat subjective, and it was only recently British began to think of themselves as European.

LOL! Seriously? Are you speaking politically or racially?

[GeistFaust]

You does seem to attach alot of importance to Indo-Europeaness but it comes out Jews are actually closer to Europeans genetically speaking than are Persians or Armenians. It's just that Jews are not a pure bunch composed of pure Semites described in the racialist books of the 19th which are usually politically biased. Modern Jews are mixed with Mediterranean European , Caucasian , and whatsoever blood.



It should makes sense that I put a lot of emphasis on the European identity in order to qualify as truly European. Its like saying that I need to depend on 2 1s or a 2 and a 0 to make a 2 when adding in mathematics. It would be nonsensical, contradictory, and downright moronic to say otherwise.

Ashkernazi and Sephardic Jews are grouped closer to Mediterranean Europeans, because they have European ancestry. If we are speaking about all variants of Jews then you would be certainly wrong with your assertion that they group with Mediterranean Europeans.


Jews are not merely limited just to the Ashkernazis and Sephardic peoples, and those Ashkernazis and Sephardics are on average a majority of Jewish bloodlines. Therefore they can not be considered Indo-European, and if so only in part. The argument ends here, because if it goes any further there will be a crass defiance of pure logic.

[Hess]

Didn't you see that Sicilian wog in my post? Does he really fit in the "natural European diversity"? :rolleyes:

"wog" is a purely subjective word that has different meanings for different people. Any native European is automatically part of European diversity, regardless of how he "swarthy" he is.

[PetiteParisienne]

It is fine, and don't be too self-conscious here. We are glad you are proud of your European descent, and willing to attempt to preserve truly and authentically European cultures, ethnicties, and languages. It is good that you stand only with Europe, and not with anything foreign, and for that your Jewish heritage can be overlooked in part.


That said I do not think I could overlook any other people with partial Non-Indo-European ancestry when it comes to preserving European ancestry. I would not accept a pure Jew or majority Jewish person who wishes to protect and preserve the European identity, because this is unnatural and contradictory with their genetic nature.


But protecting the European identity means preserving in all of its aspects whether it be speaking the language, practicing the modes of conducts, and self-consciously embracing the mentality. Most importantly this mode of protecting the European identity should be done by someone of Indo-European background, because protecting these three modes includes protecting and preserving the Indo-European background from foreign genetic admixture.


This can only be done by people who are of a pure genetic European background, and thus it seems appropriate that people are more closely of genetic European background to want to protect and preserve the other three modes of European identity.


That said certain exceptions can be made, as Goerring's Green laws showed us, and I am more than glad to have you here. We need more educated, charming, and well-behaved individuals to join in the cause, but primarily on the basis they qualify to a great extent on the four modes of European identity.


I just think that it is unnecessary to equate Ashkernazis with Europeans, even if they have partial ancestry, and its not right in the name of the preservation of the European identity to negate their Jewish component or to deny it.

Cheers, Geist. I think my more lax stance on who is/isn't white/European stems from the fact that my parents aren't of the same nationality, and that I was not born in either of their native countries.
I see secular Ashkenazi Jews who are indistinguishable from Gentiles as 'ok' for the cause because they are, as I said, indistinguishable. My personal view is that if they are not accepted, the cause might be losing valuable assets. A blonde haired blue eyed secular Ashkenazi can secure blonde hair and blue eyes just as well as a blonde haired blue eyed gentile.

[Portukalos]

do yo guys consider Gypsies as European? I bet no. But I think it has a history behind.

I could get in mind some peoples in Europe who do not fall some criteras like Magyars (Hungarians) who speak a language of foreign origin but history and geno-phenotype (it's obvious Hungarians are European genetically) of Hungary has made it typically Europe in a large Indo-European-speaking lake.

[Ausência Forçada]

do yo guys consider Gypsies as European?

Of course not.

[Portukalos]

Of course not.

Gypsies are Indo-European speakers originally , while Finns or Magyars aren't;) Ironic.

[Albion]

Again, apologies for the brief reply to your wonderfully thoughtful post.

I have mentioned my Jewish heritage because I know that it is a significant point of contention to racially and ethnically minded people. If it came down to war, I stand with Europe now and forever.

The last part is great by the way, as a preservationist I naturally liked that last bit.
But what is your opinion about most Jews in Europe? Do they think like you or would they jump ship?
The Israelis don't seem to care who gets in their way though, I doubt they'd be willing to stand with Europe.


Well, the fact that the Irish and Turks share some haplogroups (dating back to ancient times) doesn't make them the same race. We can talk about haplogroups and genetic links all we want - at the end of the day, my eyes and common sense can judge who is European and who's not.

And Cypriots? What do your eyes tell you about them? All I have is TV and internet, I've never been to the place and never given it much attention.


Only if you LET them confuse you...

I need to put the issue to rest in my mind at least.


Not the first time I've seen you repeating this garbage.

Comrade, the Khazars were a Turko-Caucasian group, and looked probably something like modern Turkmen.

Fine, "the people who were occupied by the Khazar elite" then. Better? In that case they'd be North Caucasian peoples and perhaps a few relict nomads which would explain their closeness to Georgians.


are actually in favour of the Muslim take-over of Europe

Don't understand that one. Surely if anything we'd be used to wipe out Muslims such as the trouble with Iran.
Then again there's a few Jews who do advocate multiculturalism, you cannot help but wonder why.


I would like to point out that Europe is somewhat subjective, and it was only recently British began to think of themselves as European.

Only because we like being alternative and pissing off the continentals. ;)


do yo guys consider Gypsies as European? I bet no. But I think it has a history behind. I could get in mind several peoples in Europe who do not fall some criteras like Magyars (Hungarians) who speak a language of foreign origin.

Unlike Jews and Hungarians, there is little to debate about Roma. They're North Indians who kept to themselves, end of story.

[Sikeliot]

Some are going to call me out on this, but it's unfair to say Jews (Sephardis and Ashkenazis) are not European but to include Sicilians, Maltese, and Cypriots if genetics are the argument for why Jews aren't European. Dodecad Oracle places Sicilians/South Italians as closer genetically to Sephardis than to Greeks. Jews came from Israel into Europe a fully Semitic people, picking up European genes as they went along. Sicilians and Maltese likely started out Paleolithic European but then received Phoenician, Carthaginian, Moorish, even Assyrian (I think a user on here said this) influences to the point that today they cluster with the Jews side by side.

As for culture, compare the folk dances, music, etc of some Balkan nations to nearby West Asian ones and you'll begin to see connections. So if using culture as to why Jews are not European, consider this too!

[GeistFaust]

do yo guys consider Gypsies as European?


Apply the logic that I used for Jews in the last post, and you get basically a similar answer. The only difference is Gypsies have made even less of an effort to integrate in a cultural manner with Europeans.


They have made far less contributions and advancements that I would find it much more repulsive to consider them any more European than Jews who have partial European ancestry.

I would say that that after Jews and Asians the amount of European identity that exists in a person is negated in proportion to the degree of genetic, linguistic, and cultural aspects which they might possess.

A "European" with 1/8th black can not be considered European regardless of how strong their linguistic or cultural connection is. This might sound like a subjective definition which is based off of "prejudice" and "bias", but it is based off of hard core fact.


At least some Jews have been in Europe for a longer period of time, they have made more contributions than Blacks, Gypsies, and other peoples. The same could be said about Asians to a certain extent, but they have no traditional presence in Europe, and have remained largely isolated from Europe.

Therefore a person with 1/8th Jewish, like Horst Mahler, would be the only person I would consider truly Europe, because other peoples are either inferior or have never had a presence in European culture for an extended period of time.

[Albion]

Gypsies are Indo-European speakers originally , while Finns or Magyars aren't;) Ironic.

Indo-European is just a language family. IE includes Iranian and Indian peoples, Finno-Ugric includes the Siberian peoples. Both language families are used by Europeans and non-Europeans alike.

The fact that Gypsies use an IE language is trivial, so do Negroids in the Congo but we don;t call them European.

Hungarians are and Finnic peoples are European for a number of reasons, it isn;t based on languages alone. Hungarian origins lie with the Slavs who preceded them in Pannonia anyway, the steppe origin was of a small elite.

[Portukalos]

A "European" with 1/8th black can not be considered European regardless of how strong their linguistic or cultural connection is. This might sound like a subjective definition which is based off of "prejudice" and "bias", but it is based off of hard core fact.


Really, I don't know if I agree. If that guy who is 1/8 Black is not European , then what is he...




Therefore a person with 1/8th Jewish, like Horst Mahler, would be the only person I would consider truly Europe, because other peoples are either inferior or have never had a presence in European culture for an extended period of time.
Seriously, You'd only consider someone with less than 1/8 Jewish ancestry as European? That is very weird. I don't follow this logic GeistFraust , or perhaps you are confusing yourself as well.

[Beorn]

The last part is great by the way, as a prservationist I naturally liked that last bit.

What are you preserving then? Shall we let gung-ho Africans into the fray?


Some are going to call me out on this, but it's unfair to say Jews (Sephardis and Ashkenazis) are not European but to include Sicilians, Maltese, and Cypriots if genetics are the argument for why Jews aren't European.

I don't think I've said any of the sort, but others may wish to put their tuppence worth in. :)

In fairness, the difference is a cultural similarity and religious ideal.

[Thunor]

To be honest, my knowledge about Cypriots is limited.
Mine as well. The opinions of Greek forum members on the Cypriots seemed very varied.


You mean like him:
http://www.krisvdv.net/pixelpost/images/20070916111234_sicilian_man_sigar.jpg
That is one grotesque half-Arab brownskin. The majority of Italians are obviously not as swarthy as him, although I've seen several racially dubious Sicilians in my days. A result of African genetic drift, no doubt.

This ties in with my earlier question - how mixed do you have to be, to get considered a non-European? I guess it varies from person to person.


Any native European is automatically part of European diversity, regardless of how he "swarthy" he is.
That guy on the picture is clearly not a part of European diversity. It doesn't matter if the negroid blood came from his parents, or from several centuries ago.

[PetiteParisienne]

The last part is great by the way, as a prservationist I naturally liked that last bit.
But what is your opinion about most Jews in Europe? Do they think like you or would they jump ship?
The Israelis don't seem to care who gets in their way though, I doubt they'd be willing to stand with Europe.



Don't understand that one. Surely if anything we'd be used to wipe out Muslims such as the trouble with Iran.
Then again there's a few Jews who do advocate multiculturalism, you cannot help but wonder why.


To answer your first questions: it really depends on the individual. There is so much grey area, it's ridiculous. Many European Jews think like me, many are clueless, and some (mainly the super religious) are distrusting of everyone aside from others like them (e.i. other super religious Jews). Generally, those who are not religious and don't identify as European move to Israel. That tends to be the catalyst.

Israelis love Europe. Israeli culture is quite Westernised, as it was founded by European Jews. Having been to Israel before, I can say confidently that Israel would stand by Europe in a heartbeat against Islam.

Liberal Jews, be they religious or not, tend to support multiculturalism. But I tend to find that all liberals support multiculturalism. I personally have not met one single Jewish person who supports Muslim immigration to Europe.

[Ausência Forçada]

Indo-European is just a language family. IE includes Iranian and Indian peoples, Finno-Ugric includes the Siberian peoples. Both language families are used by Europeans and non-Europeans alike.

The fact that Gypsies use an IE language is trivial, so do Negroids in the Congo but we don;t call them European.

Hungarians are and Finnic peoples are European for a number of reasons, it isn;t based on languages alone. Hungarian origins lie with the Slavs who preceded them in Pannonia anyway, the steppe origin was of a small elite.

Agree 100%.

[GeistFaust]

Cheers, Geist. I think my more lax stance on who is/isn't white/European stems from the fact that my parents aren't of the same nationality, and that I was not born in either of their native countries.
I see secular Ashkenazi Jews who are indistinguishable from Gentiles as 'ok' for the cause because they are, as I said, indistinguishable. My personal view is that if they are not accepted, the cause might be losing valuable assets. A blonde haired blue eyed secular Ashkenazi can secure blonde hair and blue eyes just as well as a blonde haired blue eyed gentile.


Yes, but a lax stance is only going to put us in a deeper ditch. We need people who will be hardcore, and even chauvinistic about European identity in order to truly protect the true European identity. You have to define what is indistinguishable from Ashkernazi Jews and Gentiles before you squeeze them into the same category.


If its merely cultural then I must say nein to the fact they are indistinguishable. If its because of phenotype, hair color, or eye color than I must say nein in part, because there are Non-European people with a phenotype that is pseudo-European looking. There are Non-European people with a blonde hair color or blue eye color, although this is relatively rare.


If you want to say Ashkernazi Jews and Europeans are indistinguishable based on a few aspects or a partial degree of their identity then you are cherry picking here. This is a fallacious use of logic to support an agenda or ideology, but it sits on shanty grounds with no firm intrinsic support.


If you want to say Ashkernazi Jews and Europeans are indistinguishable based on all the factors there are to calculate then there is no reason to admit or affirm the term Ashkernazi and European as disjunctive terms in meaning. Therefore a person of who is of partial Ashkernazi descent or who practices or believes in Ashkernazi traditions or mentalities can not be considered truly and wholly European.

[Portukalos]

As for culture, compare the folk dances, music, etc of some Balkan nations to nearby West Asian ones and you'll begin to see connections. So if using culture as to why Jews are not European, consider this too!

Balkans got large portions of J , E , G haplogroups of the Y chromosome and the recent genetic discovers in France and Spain make us think that these kinds of haplogroups made their expansion before R1b. A continuation of the gradual human settlements from West Asia basically.

[GeistFaust]

Really, I don't know if I agree. If that guy who is 1/8 Black is not European , then what is he...


Seriously, You'd only consider someone with less than 1/8 Jewish ancestry as European? That is very weird. I don't follow this logic GeistFraust , or perhaps you are confusing yourself as well.



If that guy who is 1/8th black then I consider him black in relation to the one drop rule as applied by the Jim Crow's Law. There are other historical factors I could include in this analysis as well such as the inferiority of black genetics, modes of conduct, language, and mentality.


Plus they have not had a duration of existence in European countries whatsoever. I am not confusing myself, I just have a complicated and historically informed system of calculating who qualifies as what based on a certain list of criteria.


The politically correct and liberal infused mind, which appears to be a commonality in the Western world can not grasp such logic, because they have a narrow understanding of the cold hard facts, which vary from situation to situation.

[Sikeliot]

Keep in mind I was not saying Ashkenazis or Sephardis are necessarily European but rather that we can't, and should not, be hypocritical with who we consider European and who we do not. If genetics are the determining factor, we must also exclude groups of genetic similarity to Jews. If it's culture, then some Balkan countries who are more recently West Asian influenced than are Jews should be considered as well.

The best argument I can use is that the Jewish identity formed in the Levant and not Europe, and that simple fact makes them a Middle Eastern group who have undergone Europeanization over time.

[Nglund]

Therefore a person with 1/8th Jewish, like Horst Mahler, would be the only person I would consider truly Europe, because other peoples are either inferior or have never had a presence in European culture for an extended period of time.

You are therefore denying that the following are European?


http://www.jewishmag.com/158mag/hitler_jewish_soldiers/5864a0a4.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Ascher)

http://einestages.spiegel.de/hund-images/2008/12/09/65/4b859638488a20094f50dc2ae351f2b3_image_document_la rge_featured_borderless.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmut_Schmidt)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/6d/Bernhard_Rogge.jpg/150px-Bernhard_Rogge.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Rogge)

All 1st and 2nd degree Mischlings (respectively 1/2 & 1/4 Jewish).

[GeistFaust]

You are therefore denying that the following are European?


http://www.jewishmag.com/158mag/hitler_jewish_soldiers/5864a0a4.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Ascher)

http://einestages.spiegel.de/hund-images/2008/12/09/65/4b859638488a20094f50dc2ae351f2b3_image_document_la rge_featured_borderless.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmut_Schmidt)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/6d/Bernhard_Rogge.jpg/150px-Bernhard_Rogge.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Rogge)

All 1st and 2nd degree Mischlings (respectively 1/2 & 1/4 Jewish).



With Jews and Asians, but especially Jews, I would be willing to classify them as partial Europeans.

They are not truly European though in any sense of what it means to be one.

They are half-breeds and race-mixed, and there is no more that needs to be said.

[Osweo]

If you subscribe to the belief that Jews are tricksters, you may as well believe that they are the descendants of the Khazars, too. And that Jews have 'Jew Gold', use the blood of gentile children to make unleavened bread, poison wells, caused the Black Plague, are actually in favour of the Muslim take-over of Europe, want to enslave all non-Jews, poison non-Kosher food to keep non-Jews weak, that Jews have ESP with all other Jews, etc.
HALT!
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_eFsJONTMNyc/RwNNiphdsYI/AAAAAAAAAJA/UlvxiPF5TY0/s320/spanish_inquisition.jpg
Gentlemen, sounds like a confession to me! Prepare the Auto da Fe!



I would like to point out that Europe is somewhat subjective, and it was only recently British began to think of themselves as European.
Nonsense.
http://ssau.net/shop/images/SSZVE8204.jpg


William Wyndham Grenville, 1st Baron Grenville PC, PC (Ire) (25 October 1759 – 12 January 1834) was a British Whig statesman. He served as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 1806 to 1807 as head of the Ministry of All the Talents.\
See here;
http://www.jstor.org/pss/1874357
for his European notions.

[Beorn]

Really, I don't know if I agree. If that guy who is 1/8 Black is not European , then what is he...

Someone who is thought 1/8th non-European.


Keep in mind I was not saying Ashkenazis or Sephardis are necessarily European but rather that we can't, and should not, be hypocritical with who we consider European and who we do not. If genetics are the determining factor, we must also exclude groups of genetic similarity to Jews. If it's culture, then some Balkan countries who are more recently West Asian influenced than are Jews should be considered as well.

Why? Should we be silent as others are vocal?


You are therefore denying that the following are European?
All 1st and 2nd degree Mischlings (respectively 1/2 & 1/4 Jewish).

Yep! You declared their non-European ancestry. It kinda implies something here.

[PetiteParisienne]

Another study worth reading.

http://www.jogg.info/11/coffman.htm

[PetiteParisienne]

HALT!
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_eFsJONTMNyc/RwNNiphdsYI/AAAAAAAAAJA/UlvxiPF5TY0/s320/spanish_inquisition.jpg
Gentlemen, sounds like a confession to me! Prepare the Auto da Fe!



Nonsense.
http://ssau.net/shop/images/SSZVE8204.jpg

A confession? Or rather just tired of hearing ghost stories.

[Sikeliot]

Why? Should we be silent as others are vocal?

No, but those doing what I said should try to explain then why a Sicilian is genetically European and a Jew not, and why a Muslim Balkanian and a Cypriot are culturally European but Jews are not.

[Albion]

What are you preserving then? Shall we let gung-ho Africans into the fray?

No Beorn, I was merely pointing out that it is much better to have them on our side than against us. Damn, if you can't see that then there's really no hope.

It doesn't automatically mean they're excepted as European.


Many European Jews think like me, many are clueless, and some (mainly the super religious) are distrusting of everyone aside from others like them (e.i. other super religious Jews). Generally, those who are not religious and don't identify as European move to Israel. That tends to be the catalyst.

I see. At least the ones not identifying with Europe (so not on our side) are moving out of it then. People need to know where their loyalties lie, we have enough of our own peoples who are unsure of this.


Israelis love Europe. Israeli culture is quite Westernised, as it was founded by European Jews. Having been to Israel before, I can say confidently that Israel would stand by Europe in a heartbeat against Islam.

I know it's a stereotype, but I thought they were against it and in love with America. Maybe it is just people taking the Palestinian side which they hate I guess.


Liberal Jews, be they religious or not, tend to support multiculturalism. But I tend to find that all liberals support multiculturalism.

Some black Jews were taken to Israel years ago. I presumed them just to be an exception because they're Jewish in faith.
Multiculturalism is destroying every group it is present in and needs to be stamped out.


I personally have not met one single Jewish person who supports Muslim immigration to Europe.

Like I said, it does seem very daft, but I've seen it written on here before.

[Hess]

You are therefore denying that the following are European?


http://www.jewishmag.com/158mag/hitler_jewish_soldiers/5864a0a4.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Ascher)

http://einestages.spiegel.de/hund-images/2008/12/09/65/4b859638488a20094f50dc2ae351f2b3_image_document_la rge_featured_borderless.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmut_Schmidt)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/6d/Bernhard_Rogge.jpg/150px-Bernhard_Rogge.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Rogge)

All 1st and 2nd degree Mischlings (respectively 1/2 & 1/4 Jewish).

I certainly am. Jews are NOT European regardless of how they look.


That guy on the picture is clearly not a part of European diversity. It doesn't matter if the negroid blood came from his parents, or from several centuries ago.

That guy could very well be one hundred percent Sicilian (and probably is). Whether US Racial Inspectors accept him or not hardly changes the fact that he IS a Native European. People like him exist not just in Italy but also in Greece, Cyprus and a few parts of the Balkans and there is nothing wrong with that.

[Nglund]

Yep! You declared their non-European ancestry. It kinda implies something here.

How? The Nuremberg laws specifically pointed out their jewishness.

[Hess]

why a Muslim Balkanian and a Cypriot are culturally European but Jews are not.

Who considers Muslim Balkanians to be European? Most European preservationists certainly don't.

As for Cyprus, I am sure most Greek Cypriots identify strongly with Greek Orthodox culture.

[Sikeliot]

So let me get this straight: That guy could very well be one hundred percent Sicilian (and probably is). Whether US Racial Inspectors accept him or not hardly changes the fact that he IS a Native European. People like him exist not just in Italy but also in Greece, Cyprus and a few parts of the Balkans and there is nothing wrong with that.

That appearance could not exist in a European who does not have considerable West Asian influence, well above the average for a European nation. Hence why it appears in the places you named, and why those ethnicities cluster not well within the European cluster but on the edge of it (and Cypriots not even within it).

[PetiteParisienne]

No Beorn, I was merely pointing out that it is much better to have them on our side than against us. Damn, if you can't see that then there's really no hope.

It doesn't automatically mean they're excepted as European.



I see. At least the ones not identifying with Europe (so not on our side) are moving out of it then. People need to know where their loyalties lie, we have enough of our own peoples who are unsure of this.



I know it's a stereotype, but I thought they were against it and in love with America. Maybe it is just people taking the Palestinian side which they hate I guess.



Some black Jews were taken to Israel years ago. I presumed them just to be an exception because they're Jewish in faith.
Multiculturalism is destroying every group it is present in and needs to be stamped out.



Like I said, it does seem very daft, but I've seen it written on here before.

Yes, Israel absorbed a large number of Jews from Ethiopia. These people have a very hard time in Israel even though Israel is very racially diverse. White Ashkenazis of European descent run the show in Israel. White genes always float to the top.

[Mercury]

If it were true Ethnic European Muslims are not European, then why aren't all non-Christians on the continent considered non-European?


Who considers Muslim Balkanians to be European? Most European preservationists certainly don't.

[Beorn]

No, but those doing what I said should try to explain then why a Sicilian is genetically European and a Jew not, and why a Muslim Balkanian and a Cypriot are culturally European but Jews are not.

Okay. I'm with you. :)


No Beorn, I was merely pointing out that it is much better to have them on our side than against us. Damn, if you can't see that then there's really no hope.

Why? Are we that outnumbered that we have to resort to importing hired mercenaries?

[Hess]

That appearance could not exist in a European who does not have considerable West Asian influence, well above the average for a European nation. Hence why it appears in the places you named, and why those ethnicities cluster not well within the European cluster but on the edge of it (and Cypriots not even within it).

right, and this is why I always say that all these fancy genetic charts are bollocks.


Greeks are not just Europeans, they are the root of Western civilization and no Dodecad or Mcdnonald graph is going to convince me otherwise.

[Nglund]

I certainly am. Jews are NOT European regardless of how they look.

The way they look is not the point. You are consequently labelling German war veterans as non-European.

[Albion]

Jewish place in Europe

Can a Jew be English?: No, we are our own ethnicity.

Can a Jew be British?: Yes, as a citizen (they have a British passport), but the concept of a British ethnic group includes only the native British peoples (English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish, Cornish, Manx, Channel Islanders).

Are Jews European?: Undecided. Ashkenazi are the most likely group if any are accepted, the rest have no chance.
They're very Europeanised at least, so I'll call them "Europeanised" for now.

What about people with minor Jewish ancestry?: Depends upon the majority of their ancestry, if they are mainly of British ancestry and identify as British or one of the native ethnicities then I'd regard them as British.

Non-religious Jews?: The same rules apply, although they'd probably assimilate into the general population over time if they mixed with non-Jews.

------------------------------------------------------------------------



Origins of the Jews

Levantine and North Caucasian. Ashkenazi are probably more North Caucasian than Levantine.

[Hess]

The way they look is not the point. You are consequently labelling German war veterans as non-European.

Do they identify as Jews? If so, then they are Non-European. If they identify as Europeans, it is of course different story.

[Sikeliot]

right, and this is why I always say that all these fancy genetic charts are bollocks.


Greeks are not just Europeans, they are the root of Western civilization and no Dodecad or Mcdnonald graph is going to convince me otherwise.

I wasn't implying anything about Greeks for the genetic part.. they are significantly Neolithic but unlike other groups mentioned are not (at least in part) descended from well-established Semitic groups like Phoenicians and Assyrians.

[Joe McCarthy]

Originally Posted by Albion
No one disputes the English are European apart from the English themselves.

There are those on the Continent who will disagree, as well as some American Anglophiles. ;)

The defining moment in recent history was when Churchill said the British are of Europe but not of it and told Charles De Gaulle Britain would always side with America over France. De Gaulle returned the favor by vetoing Britain's entry into the Common Market multiple times.


The English europhiles are a minority (I use the term "europhile" to refer to the EU and European federalism, not Europe the continent). They tend to be the worst sorts of people, not a patriotic bone in their body and usually quite traitorous.
They're a pessimistic bunch and all their arguments are based around the apparent strength European unity would create. However, most English people are centre right and against further EU integration and many are for leaving the EU and repairing ties to the Anglosphere.

The American media might report us to be a load of Europhiles, but it is hardly the case.


I agree in part, but I have seen polling that indicates the British, particularly the younger ones, see their future more in Europe than with America. That may be switching back now though with the clusterfuck that is the EU crisis.

In any case, there is little doubt where Americans stand here. Americans are very pro-British and much less pro-Europe (though we're that too). Hopefully Britain won't turn on us.


An interesting idea, but I doubt Jews would just forget their religion. They'd hide it as they did in Spain.


Those were Sephardim. Can there be any doubt where people like Milch stood - and that even in a rabidly anti-Semitic state? Over time the Jewish input could be diluted even more.

[StonyArabia]

That appearance could not exist in a European who does not have considerable West Asian influence, well above the average for a European nation. Hence why it appears in the places you named, and why those ethnicities cluster not well within the European cluster but on the edge of it (and Cypriots not even within it).

More like SouthWest Asian ie Arabian component, he is exotic to be honest in the Caucasus, he can not fit in Georgia or Armenia let alone Circassia

[Albion]

If it were true Ethnic European Muslims are not European, then why aren't all non-Christians on the continent considered non-European?

Traitors exist in all races. ;)


Why? Are we that outnumbered that we have to resort to importing hired mercenaries?

No, but I'd rather us have a few less enemies and a few more people who'd watch our back. It isn't a difficult concept.

[PetiteParisienne]

Jewish place in Europe

Can a Jew be English?: No, we are our own ethnicity.

Can a Jew be British?: Yes, as a citizen (they have a British passport), but the concept of a British ethnic group includes only the native British peoples (English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish, Cornish, Manx, Channel Islanders).

Are Jews European?: Undecided. Ashkenazi are the most likely group if any are accepted, the rest have no chance.
They're very Europeanised at least, so I'll call them "Europeanised" for now.

What about people with minor Jewish ancestry?: Depends upon the majority of their ancestry, if they are mainly of British ancestry and identify as British or one of the native ethnicities then I'd regard them as British.

Non-religious Jews?: The same rules apply, although they'd probably assimilate into the general population over time if they mixed with non-Jews.

------------------------------------------------------------------------



Origins of the Jews

Levantine and North Caucasian. Ashkenazi are probably more North Caucasian than Levantine.

Fair.

[ariaka]

What do you mean when you ask: are jews European? Are you using that as a synonym for "white". If so would you consider white Americans to be European? These questions are for anyone who has been discussing whether or not jews are Europeans and anyone on any side of that issue.

[Sikeliot]

More like SouthWest Asian ie Arabian component, he is exotic to be honest in the Caucasus, he can not fit in Georgia or Armenia let alone Circassia

It might have been better had I said "Semitic" instead of West Asian.

[PetiteParisienne]

What do you mean when you ask: are jews European? Are you using that as a synonym for "white". If so would you consider white Americans to be European? These questions are for anyone who has been discussing whether or not jews are Europeans and anyone on an side of that issue.

Good point. White =/= European.

[Thunor]

Fancy genetics charts are bollocks? But then what decides who is European, if not a shared genetic heritage and culture?

(And culture can be learned, too. A negroid who speaks Queen's English and graduates from Oxford is still not an European.)


That guy could very well be one hundred percent Sicilian (and probably is).
That's just evidence to how racially mixed the Sicilians are.


People like him exist not just in Italy but also in Greece, Cyprus and a few parts of the Balkans and there is nothing wrong with that.
People like him are a result of Non-European contamination, and there's clearly something wrong with that. I wouldn't want any pure Europeans ("white people") to mix with that guy and reproduce.

[Beorn]

Can a Jew be English?: No, we are our own ethnicity.

No.


Can a Jew be British?: Yes, as a citizen (they have a British passport), but the concept of a British ethnic group includes only the native British peoples (English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish, Cornish, Manx, Channel Islanders).

so why imply they are British citizens? You may as well call them kin and be done with it.


Are Jews European?: Undecided. Ashkenazi are the most likely group if any are accepted, the rest have no chance.
They're very Europeanised at least, so I'll call them "Europeanised" for now.

You had trouble considering them as British a minute a go, now they are "undecided" Europeans?


What about people with minor Jewish ancestry?: Depends upon the majority of their ancestry, if they are mainly of British ancestry and identify as British or one of the native ethnicities then I'd regard them as British.

Till you broach the subject of their particular ancestry. :thumb001:


Non-religious Jews?: The same rules apply, although they'd probably assimilate into the general population over time if they mixed with non-Jews.

Bah! Assimilation. John Barnes is assimilated. Just see how well assimilated he was the other day (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42392).

[Sikeliot]

That's just evidence to how racially mixed the Sicilians are.


People like him are a result of Non-European contamination, and there's clearly something wrong with that. I wouldn't want any pure Europeans ("white people") to mix with that guy and reproduce.

You're correct about "non-European" input, but it's not racial mixture. Middle Easterners are Caucasoids. That man is not the result of Negroid or Mongoloid input.

[Beorn]

No, but I'd rather us have a few less enemies and a few more people who'd watch our back. It isn't a difficult concept.

LOL! Let's make room for non-English people. At least they'll go onto have non-English children. So preservationist.


What do you mean when you ask: are jews European? Are you using that as a synonym for "white".

No, we are not.

[StonyArabia]

It might have been better had I said "Semitic" instead of West Asian.

Indeed, since the Semitic is the dubbed term for the SouthWest Asian component, and this is a non-European component, being distinct and it peaks in the Arabian Desert tribesmen, often found in unaltered forms. There is no way that SouthWest Asian/Semitic admix in Sicily is neolthic everything points to it being recent, and it's due to the conquest of Central Arabian tribes.

[Thunor]

You're correct about "non-European" input, but it's not racial mixture. Middle Easterners are Caucasoids. That man is not the result of Negroid or Mongoloid input.
That's why the semi-official term "Europid" exists in the first place, to describe the racial types in Europe. Caucasoid is a huge racial category and basically includes everything that is not Negroid or Mongoloid.

The majority of Middle-Easterners are not racially Europid. Anyone can see that Osama bin Laden is not an European.

[Albion]

There are those on the Continent who will disagree, as well as some American Anglophiles. ;)

Oh well, screw 'em. ;)


I agree in part, but I have seen polling that indicates the British, particularly the younger ones, see their future more in Europe than with America. That may be switching back now though with the clusterfuck that is the EU crisis.

Europe is seen as the Soviet Union was seen in the past, as the trendy alternative to America. People like an underdog, especially far left students. Fortunately most grow up.


In any case, there is little doubt where Americans stand here. Americans are very pro-British and much less pro-Europe (though we're that too). Hopefully Britain won't turn on us.

I doubt Britain will turn against America.

[Hess]

I wouldn't want any pure Europeans ("white people") to mix with that guy and reproduce.

I define "pure European" as any person of wholly European descent. Greeks, South Italians, and a few other groups have a significant percentage of W+SW Asian admix (From Antiquity), but that doesn't change the fact that they are Europeans whether we like it or not.

We can't just excommunicate parts of Europe because we feel that they aren't "pure" enough by dubious nordicist racial standards.

[PetiteParisienne]

[QUOTE=Albion;737716]
Europe is seen as the Soviet Union was seen in the past, as the trendy alternative to America. People like an underdog, especially far left students. Fortunately most grow up.
/QUOTE]


I'm not so sure. I see a lot of lost causes. :(

[ariaka]

Good point. White =/= European.

I agree. And White Americans certainly are not Europeans. And there certainly are jews who happen to be White. Furthermore though I would classify European jews as being European unless they choose to migrate to a new homeland. But the question of whether or not a jew is white is different than the question of whether or not a jew can be classified as European. A white jew in America is white but that jew is not European, he or she would be American.

And just to be clear being of European ancestry is part of the identity of a White American however having European ancestry does not make them Europeans. White Americans are not Europeans. White Americans are Americans.

[Beorn]

I agree. And White Americans certainly are not Europeans. And there certainly are jews who happen to be White. Furthermore though I would classify European jews as being European unless they choose to migrate to a new homeland. But the question of whether or not a jew is white is different than the question of whether or not a jew can be classified as European. A white jew in America is white but that jew is not European, he or she would be American.

And just to be clear being of European ancestry is part of the identity of a White American however having European ancestry does not make them Europeans. White Americans are not Europeans. White Americans are Americans.

I hadn't realised America had yet to enjoy the marvels of DNA.

[Sikeliot]

I define "pure European" as any person of wholly European descent. Greeks, South Italians, and a few other groups have a significant percentage of W+SW Asian admix (From Antiquity), but that doesn't change the fact that they are Europeans whether we like it or not.

We can't just excommunicate parts of Europe because we feel that they aren't "pure" enough by dubious nordicist racial standards.

I agree with you. But I'll compare it to the situation of when someone uses an Ethiopian as an example of "African diversity" and "black beauty" without acknowledging that Ethiopians are not just light-skinned, fine featured Africans but rather Kushitic-Semitic hybrids who have much Arabian influence.

Btw someone mentioned Bin Laden.. he is 1/4 Ethiopian himself.

[PetiteParisienne]

I agree. And White Americans certainly are not Europeans. And there certainly are jews who happen to be White. Furthermore though I would classify European jews as being European unless they choose to migrate to a new homeland. But the question of whether or not a jew is white is different than the question of whether or not a jew can be classified as European. A white jew in America is white but that jew is not European, he or she would be American.

And just to be clear being of European ancestry is part of the identity of a White American however having European ancestry does not make them Europeans. White Americans are not Europeans. White Americans are Americans.

I can agree with that. Well done. You are always the voice of reason.

[PetiteParisienne]

I'd like to address Beorn here. He/she/whatever would rather send me dickish comments via negative rep - in private - where they cannot be seen. I, however, am not a coward.

ALORS. Beorn, have the balls to treat me like an arse in front of everyone else. I don't mind.

[StonyArabia]

Btw someone mentioned Bin Laden.. he is 1/4 Ethiopian himself.

Correct, he is 1/4 Ethiopian through his grandmother. He was also part Syrian through his mom and his height and looks are not really typical in Arabia. He was a giant compared to most Arabians. Arabians most often tend to be of short stature, dark skinned, and often don't grow full beards, and have almost no hair on their bodies.

[PetiteParisienne]

Correct, he is 1/4 Ethiopian through his grandmother. He was also part Syrian through his mom and his height and looks are not really typical in Arabia. He was a giant compared to most Arabians. Arabians most often tend to be of short stature, dark skinned, and often don't grow full beards, and have almost no hair on their bodies.

I had no idea. Interesting.

[ariaka]

I hadn't realised America had yet to enjoy the marvels of DNA.

I hadn't realised that where ever you are from had yet to enjoy the marvels of geography. But to be serious, the issue of differentiating a European from an American is cultural. There is a major difference between various American cultures and the various cultures of Europe. And culture is a major factor in identity.

[Beorn]

I'd like to address Beorn here. He/she/whatever would rather send me dickish comments via negative rep - in private - where they cannot be seen. I, however, am not a coward.

ALORS. Beorn, have the balls to treat me like an arse in front of everyone else. I don't mind.

LOL! I'm sorry that you're on a European forum and talking shit about Europeans. :(

[Beorn]

I hadn't realised that where ever you are from had yet to enjoy the marvels of geography. But to be serious, the issue of differentiating a European from an American is cultural. There is a major difference between various American cultures and the various cultures of Europe. And culture is a major factor in identity.


Ah, so like the rest of the fucking idiots posting on this thread, you miss entirely the notion of 'racial European'.

Okay! :)

[Albion]

What do you mean when you ask: are jews European? Are you using that as a synonym for "white". If so would you consider white Americans to be European? These questions are for anyone who has been discussing whether or not jews are Europeans and anyone on any side of that issue.

I use European to be synonymous with "white" although it is a bad term. I use "European" to include those of and descended from Europeans.

Everyone else can make up their own minds, that's what I've settled for.


so why imply they are British citizens? You may as well call them kin and be done with it.

It's not my choice, anyone with British citizenship is deemed "British" by the government. That is why I avoid that hollow term like the plague.


You had trouble considering them as British a minute a go, now they are "undecided" Europeans?

I don't know where they fit, their origins are the Levant but a lot of Ashkenazi genetics are European. What am I supposed to do?
If I go for one or the other, either way it is wrong.


Bah! Assimilation. John Barnes is assimilated.

It doesn't change anything, it just means they'll attempt to fit in with our society. I think most currently do, although most groups have bloody multiculturalists.


LOL! Let's make room for non-English people. At least they'll go onto have non-English children. So preservationist.

For fuck sake Beorn, I'm not bloody inviting them here! They can stay wherever they are, my point being that it is better to be liked than disliked.
Just accept the damn proposition and stop being so stubbornly awkward. You know what I meant.

Don't you honestly think that a few less people who hate us the better?


I'm not so sure. I see a lot of lost causes.

I know, I keep trying to tell myself that some of them are just going through a phase. There are some people I really have no hope for.


And just to be clear being of European ancestry is part of the identity of a White American however having European ancestry does not make them Europeans. White Americans are not Europeans. White Americans are Americans.

Oh great, I've opened that debate now.

[Loki]

I'd like to address Beorn here. He/she/whatever would rather send me dickish comments via negative rep - in private - where they cannot be seen. I, however, am not a coward.

ALORS. Beorn, have the balls to treat me like an arse in front of everyone else. I don't mind.

Don't worry you're not the first and unfortunately unlikely to be the last.

You should go to bed now!! I'm going to close the thread for the night and re-open it when the sun shines again.

[Loki]

Thread reopened

[Nglund]

Uh-oh.

[Osweo]

All 1st and 2nd degree Mischlings (respectively 1/2 & 1/4 Jewish).
A half Jew is a half European. :shrug: Honestly, I don't get what's so hard to grasp about this. :confused:

Cheers, Geist. I think my more lax stance on who is/isn't white/European stems from the fact that my parents aren't of the same nationality,
Thankyou for demonstrating the real DANGER in accepting people like yourself.


I see secular Ashkenazi Jews who are indistinguishable from Gentiles as 'ok' for the cause because they are, as I said, indistinguishable. My personal view is that if they are not accepted, the cause might be losing valuable assets
Oh NO!!!!!!! We'll lose all the valuable Jews who speak out for our native rights in public life!!!!!!!!! :eek:

Er... where've they been the last few decades, by the way? :confused:



. A blonde haired blue eyed secular Ashkenazi can secure blonde hair and blue eyes just as well as a blonde haired blue eyed gentile.
Er... Fuck OFF with your bullshit racial crap. THat's got piss all to do with being European. Fair Europeans are no superior to others. This is a cheap red herring.



The Israelis don't seem to care who gets in their way though, I doubt they'd be willing to stand with Europe.
Proven time and time again.


Fine, "the people who were occupied by the Khazar elite" then. Better? In that case they'd be North Caucasian peoples and perhaps a few relict nomads which would explain their closeness to Georgians.
Please, drop this utter DRIVEL.

The Ashkenazim are from the Rhineland. They are NOT CHECHENS. :tsk: Christ almighty, I can't believe I have to reiterate that. Just fucking LOOK at some actual Caucasians, and a few genetic plots. :tsk:




Israelis love Europe.
:bowlol: I wish I had the energy to dig up photos and so on to prove otherwise.


I can say confidently that Israel would stand by Europe in a heartbeat against Islam.
We don't need your divisive tactics. Islam is going nowhere. It's our neighbour, and we have to coexist on the world stage. If you want confrontation with them, leave us out of it.

No Beorn, I was merely pointing out that it is much better to have them on our side than against us. Damn, if you can't see that then there's really no hope.

And the Jews are our only hope!? :lol: We ARE fucked if that is the case! :D
The onus is on THEM to take a stand and be counted as pro-Europeans.

White Ashkenazis of European descent run the show in Israel. White genes always float to the top.
More bizarre racism. :sherlock: Currying favour with us? Seems rather sordid to me. :ohwell:



Origins of the Jews

Levantine and North Caucasian. Ashkenazi are probably more North Caucasian than Levantine.
Christ's sake, drop it. :tsk: You haven't got a clue about the Caucasus.


*************************

Let's recap. A foreigner is asserting all kinds of controversial claims. Some have resisted the unwelcome intrusion on our particular rights to certain exclusive terms. OTHERS have rushed up to kiss arse. I submit, ladies and gentleman, that the matter has been a superb demonstration of the stupid and suicidal lack of solidarity among Europeans, especially noted in the 'Atlanticist' camp.

People, for fuck's sake, figure out who your OWN are and stick with them.

Part Jews who don't want to go to Israel or Amerika; don't mouth off about being Jewish, don't stir up strife about pointless issues. Keep your head down and be 'European' if you must, without waving Jewishness about, and most of us would be happy to put up with you. You can't have your cake and eat it. The categories of Jew and European are too mutually antagonistic to sit easily together. One must give way to the other.

[Albion]

And the Jews are our only hope!?

No. Stop suggesting things.

[The Lawspeaker]

No. Stop suggesting things.
That's something Joe McCarthy once said:

If saving the white race means sucking Jewish cock we should all such Jew cock.

Or something like that. At least we now know what not to do because that's what we have been doing over the past 50 odd years. :cool:

[Loki]

Islam is going nowhere. It's our neighbour, and we have to coexist on the world stage. If you want confrontation with them, leave us out of it.


Hypocrisy 101 :)

If Islam is our 'neighbour', then why not Jews? In fact, Jews have been living IN Europe for much longer than Muslims have.

So let me get this straight: you are Islam-friendly and want confrontation with Jews? :mmmm: How about not wanting confrontation with either? :lightbul: You know ... tree-hugging and all that shit. :coffee:

[The Lawspeaker]

Hypocrisy 101 :)

If Islam is our 'neighbour', then why not Jews? In fact, Jews have been living IN Europe for much longer than Muslims have.

So let me get this straight: you are Islam-friendly and want confrontation with Jews? :mmmm: How about not wanting confrontation with either? :lightbul: You know ... tree-hugging and all that shit. :coffee:
What about armed neutrality when it comes to both of them ? Selling weapons to both the Muslims and Jews and growing rich over their corpses ? (basically what the Jews have been doing here over the past 1000 years: lending money to both European parties after they had seduced them to slaughter each other).

[Albion]

That's something Joe McCarthy once said:

If saving the white race means sucking Jewish cock we should all such Jew cock.

Or something like that. At least we now know what not to do because that's what we have been doing over the past 50 odd years. :cool:

I wouldn't call indifference or neutrality regarding the Jews as cock sucking, I'am merely stressing that we don't need any more enemies.

The Jewish influence over western politics is an unwelcome interference of course. I don't see how people keep jumping from my views of general indifference to the belief that I'am advocating allegiance with them. It's not the same and as I said, a few less enemies in the world is desirable, that however doesn't make them our allies though.

Anyway, Osweo will think up some shitty argument against this I'm sure. Please, feel free to, although it is rather tiresome having to keep repeating myself.