Which group is closest to Europeans?

[Joe McCarthy]

Place your votes.

[Gaztelu]

Jews (Ashkenazim & Sephardim) and Anatolian Turks

[Sikeliot]

Turks.

[StonyArabia]

Turks, Jews originally be Sandnigs

[Mortimer]

I think the Jews.

[Sikeliot]

Who the heck picked blacks or Gypsies???

[Mortimer]

Who the heck picked blacks or Gypsies???

the votes are public.

[Midori]

Jews because they've been living among Europeans for centuries

[riverman]

Who the heck picked blacks or Gypsies???

Me. I voted gypsies...it's a public poll btw.....:rolleyes:

[StonyArabia]

I think the Jews.

Not really Turks are closer to Europeans than Jews are. A better poll would have included the North Caucasus, who are indeed the closest people to Europeans such as the Adyghe, Chechens, Abkhaz and so forth.

[Mortimer]

Not really Turks are closer to Europeans than Jews are. A better poll would have included the North Caucasus, who are indeed the closest people to Europeans such as the Adyghe, Chechens, Abkhaz and so forth.

do you mean genetically? why do you think turks are closer? phenotypically and culturally and historically jews are much closer. jews belong to western part of world, turkey not really.

[Sikeliot]

My comment was not contingent on whether or not the poll is public.. obviously I am smart enough to check. It was more "How could someone possibly think the answer to the question is Gypsies or blacks?"

[Padre Organtino]

Gypsies all the way.

[StonyArabia]

do you mean genetically? why do you think turks are closer? phenotypically and culturally and historically jews are much closer. jews belong to western part of world, turkey not really.

Genetically, Turks are close to Europeans, and are more than Jews. Not really the phenotype of Turks most often can pass in Europe if you are speaking of ethnic Turks, especially in the South Eastern portions, as well the Caucasus. Culturally it's diffrent of course but so are the Jews. I think the Caucasian people those from the North are the closest group to Europeans more so than Jews or Turks. Some how they were not included. Jews consist of many groups the Ashkenazim yes, Sephardim partially, the Mizharim and Temanim not at all, modern Jews especially Israel have intermixed together which makes the Turks the closest relatives to Europeans and not the Jews. However the Caucasus people are the closest especially the Northern ones and Georgians to.

[Sikeliot]

Many Turks can pass as Balkanians.. not only as Greek but also Albanian, Bosnian, Serbian, and Bulgarian because a lot of western Turks have relatively recent Balkan ancestry.

[Queen B]

Turks.

[Joe McCarthy]

I could have included a number of other groups, including possibly the Sami. That, though, can be covered in the 'other' option.

I didn't include Kurds either.

[StonyArabia]

I could have included a number of other groups, including possibly the Sami. That, though, can be covered in the 'other' option.

I didn't include Kurds either.

The Sami are closer to Europeans than Jews are that's for sure. Kurds are not really related to Europeans and the same is true of their Persian cousins, but from the group mentioned the Turks especially ethnic Turks are the closest to Europans by genetics more than Jews. However outside of Europe the closest people to Europeans are North Caucasians with South Caucasian coming in second.

[Mortimer]

Im afraid this will end in another "who i like more" thread. i doubt that turks are closest to europeans, closer than jews. in austria i always spot a turk, but not a jew.

[Mortimer]

The Sami are closer to Europeans than Jews are that's for sure. Kurds are not really related to Europeans and the same is true of their Persian cousins, but from the group mentioned the Turks especially ethnic Turks are the closest to Europans by genetics more than Jews. However outside of Europe the closest people to Europeans are North Caucasians with South Caucasian coming in second.

doesnt jews cluster with italians on genetic maps? do you have an genetic source? to me jews just look more european than turks. and is it only about phenotype?

[Sikeliot]

doesnt jews cluster with italians on genetic maps? do you have an genetic source? to me jews just look more european than turks. and is it only about phenotype?

Dodecad Oracle has Sephardi Jews as closer to southern Italians than even Greeks are.. but I do not know how history would explain this relationship.

[Aemma]

European whats though? I mean which Europeans and how do you define "Europe"?

I doubt very much that Ashkenazi Jews would identify with anything but Europe on some meta-cultural level; same can be said for Gypsies, either of Roma descent or "the Traveling Irish."

I would wager that the closest one actually lives to the North-West coast of the Atlantic the least they would be inclined to state that Turks would be closest to Europeans.

Yet, the more I see these types of questions being asked here, the more I realise that there are gradients of Europeanness, if one can put it in these terms. It's a spectrum of sorts and "Europeanness" becomes far less categorical than one thinks. :shrug:

[Joe McCarthy]

In terms of cultural similarity many Jews are extremely assimilated in European societies. Meanwhile, Turks are notorious for being poorly assimilated, particularly in Germany, and this even after post-Ataturk Westernization.

[StonyArabia]

Dodecad Oracle has Sephardi Jews as closer to southern Italians than even Greeks are.. but I do not know how history would explain this relationship.

Large amounts of converts into the Sephardic fold. The Mizaharim and Samartians are more truly Jewish.

[Sikeliot]

Large amounts of converts into the Sephardic fold. The Mizaharim and Samartians are more truly Jewish.

So today's Sephardi may consist of many converted southern Italians or Greeks?

[StonyArabia]

So today's Sephardi may consist of many converted southern Italians or Greeks?

Indeed, Judaism was never a restrictive religion, that's rather a myth. You can see this with the Temanim Jews who are just Arabian converts and genetically are the same as the Arabian population, and there are other communities.

[Padre Organtino]

Overall: Ashkenazi/Sephardi.

Among out of Europe residing groups - probably Georgians due to combinations of racial and cultural proximity (some groups are closer than them genetically).

Saami are European.

[Mortimer]

Just a sidenote: Genetically Gypsies are closer to Europe+W.Asia than to Central India. I dont know how close they are compared to N.India. Or how close they are in comparison to the other groups mentioned.

[Mortimer]

Concerning the putative ancestral genetic component, admixture analysis did not reveal strong Indian ancestry in the current Gypsy gene pools, in contrast to the high admixture estimates for either Europeans or Western Asians.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19918999

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2010/09/gysp2.png

[Grizzly]

Many Turks can pass as Balkanians.. not only as Greek but also Albanian, Bosnian, Serbian, and Bulgarian because a lot of western Turks have relatively recent Balkan ancestry.

Yea. The majority of the white or Euro looking people in Turkey have Balkan blood. There has been a long history of the Ottoman empire taking Balkan populations in Turkey and it goes on today as well. There's around 5million Turks with Albanian ancestry alone, and there's a large number of Turks with Serb, Greek, Bulgarian, Bosnian, etc, ancestry.

But if you go to the Eastern part the people aren't very European/White looking. Very dark arab looking...

[Gaztelu]

I could have included a number of other groups, including possibly the Sami.




The Sami are closer to Europeans than Jews are that's for sure.

The Sami ARE European.

[Joe McCarthy]

Good bit of bickering on the Sami question here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22573) and elsewhere so no need to rehash it on this thread.

[Sicilianu101]

European whats though? I mean which Europeans and how do you define "Europe"?

I doubt very much that Ashkenazi Jews would identify with anything but Europe on some meta-cultural level; same can be said for Gypsies, either of Roma descent or "the Traveling Irish."

I would wager that the closest one actually lives to the North-West coast of the Atlantic the least they would be inclined to state that Turks would be closest to Europeans.

Yet, the more I see these types of questions being asked here, the more I realise that there are gradients of Europeanness, if one can put it in these terms. It's a spectrum of sorts and "Europeanness" becomes far less categorical than one thinks. :shrug:

I think Northwest & Scandinavia are seen in these forums sometimes as the "most" European & then it just all goes downhill as you go south-eastwards :D

[AFC_Lad]

jews hmmm okay :confused:

[Trun]

Persians, since they are Indo-European.

[lepa]

Turks.

[Kanuni]

Many Turks can pass as Balkanians.. not only as Greek but also Albanian, Bosnian, Serbian, and Bulgarian because a lot of western Turks have relatively recent Balkan ancestry.

Not really.They cluster firstly with other Turks genetically, Balkan people like to exaggerate the numbers.Those with Balkan ancestry are in minority in comparison with those who descend from native Anatolian stock.

[Trun]

Not really.They cluster firstly with other Turks genetically, Balkan people like to exaggerate the numbers.Those with Balkan ancestry are in minority in comparison with those who descend from native Anatolian stock.

Native Anatolians were close to Thraco-Illyrians and ancient Greeks. Those swarthy Turks from Anatolia are mainly Arab admixed.
Closest to native Anatolians are Anatolian and Pontian Greeks.

[hajduk]

Not really.They cluster firstly with other Turks genetically, Balkan people like to exaggerate the numbers.Those with Balkan ancestry are in minority in comparison with those who descend from native Anatolian stock.

The most funny thing is when blonde turks are accusing of having balkan ancestry, not to mention balkanites are majority dark haired themselves

[Mortimer]

Native Anatolians were close to Thraco-Illyrians and ancient Greeks. Those swarthy Turks from Anatolia are mainly Arab admixed.
Closest to native Anatolians are Anatolian and Pontian Greeks.

Geographically they were close, but didnt the blonde greeks came from the north and the "first greeks" were swarthy?

[Trun]

Geographically they were close, but didnt the blonde greeks came from the north and the "first greeks" were swarthy?

Were are those blonde Greeks? Neither ancient nor modern Greeks are blonde.

[Kanuni]

Were are those blonde Greeks? Neither ancient nor modern Greeks are blonde.

Look again with your complexes mate.By your definition and some others every light haired or blue eyed Balkanite is not native to the region.Are you aware that

Thracians/Illyrians/Greeks were Indo-European? So they had those kind of types in ancient times.

[Mortimer]

Were are those blonde Greeks? Neither ancient nor modern Greeks are blonde.

The first Greek Civilization "Minoan Civilization" was Swarthy and probably Arab like, carrying of J Haplogroup

[Trun]

Look again with your complexes mate.By your definition and some others every light haired or blue eyed Balkanite is not native to the region.Are you aware that

Thracians/Illyrians/Greeks were Indo-European? So they had those kind of types in ancient times.

Maybe they had 5% blondes like today. But how may you say that ancient Greeks were blondes in the majority? They promoted dark hair and tanned skin and despised blonde and pale barbarians.


The first Greek Civilization "Minoan Civilization" was Swarthy and probably Arab like, carrying of J Haplogroup

Carrying J haplogroup doesn't make anyone swarthy or Arab by itself only. If it did, 20% and more of Bulgarians, Italians, Albanians and Greeks would have been swarthy or Arab looking.

[Kanuni]

Maybe they had 5% blondes like today. But how may you say that ancient Greeks were blondes in the majority? They promoted dark hair and tanned skin and despised blonde and pale barbarians.

And who said they were blonde?

I was noting that those types were present not dominant.

And by light haired i don't mean hardcore blonde just light brown hair.

[пустиняк]

The first Greek Civilization "Minoan Civilization" was Swarthy and probably Arab like, carrying of J Haplogroup

Proofs ?

[Mortimer]

Proofs ?

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n4/full/5201769a.html

[Trun]

And who said they were blonde?

I was noting that those types were present not dominant.

And by light haired i don't mean hardcore blonde just light brown hair.

IM mentioned something about Greeks being blonde and I just corrected him, you exploded afterwards, I don't understand why. Whatever.

[Mortimer]

Maybe they had 5% blondes like today. But how may you say that ancient Greeks were blondes in the majority? They promoted dark hair and tanned skin and despised blonde and pale barbarians.



Carrying J haplogroup doesn't make anyone swarthy or Arab by itself only. If it did, 20% and more of Bulgarians, Italians, Albanians and Greeks would have been swarthy or Arab looking.

but from pictures we know that they were swarthy and arab looking

[Trun]

but from pictures we know that they were swarthy and arab looking

These were drawings of tanned men. It's normal for them to be tanned with temperatures exceeding 30C in almost half of the year.

[Mortimer]

These were drawings of tanned men. It's normal for them to be tanned with temperatures exceeding 30C in almost half of the year.

we can say the same about desert arabs, yet we know they are naturally tanned.

[Trun]

we can say the same about desert arabs, yet we know they are naturally tanned.

It's different, Crete is not desert. It has subtropical Mediterranean climate, so you can't expect people from there to look like Arabs, moreover the sun in Crete is far weaker than in Rub el Khali.

[пустиняк]

http://cache.virtualtourist.com/4/1080094-The_Minoan_civilization_Crete_Island.jpg

Arab looking ?

[Mortimer]

It's different, Crete is not desert. It has subtropical Mediterranean climate, so you can't expect people from there to look like Arabs, moreover the sun in Crete is far weaker than in Rub el Khali.

The Minoans probably arrived from the Middle East into Crete.

Not only their skin tone but also their facial features reminds me of Middle Easterners.

http://dnanews.org/minoans-of-crete-came-from-middle-east/

[Mortimer]

http://cache.virtualtourist.com/4/1080094-The_Minoan_civilization_Crete_Island.jpg

Arab looking ?

you choose the most depigmented picture of them when there are plenty of brown ones, but they still look arab from features and have black hair. if minoans were regular euroepans there would have been ones with light hair because in every european subrace there is variation, only in non-european 95% have black hair..... but there is no picture where they have light hair

[пустиняк]

you choose the most depigmented picture of them when there are plenty of brown ones, but they still look arab from features and have black hair. if minoans were regular euroepans there would have been ones with light hair because in every european subrace there is variation, only in non-european 95% have black hair..... but there is no picture where they have light hair

This is the first picture I found on google when I write minoan civilization. :lol:

[lepa]

http://minoancivilization.net/images/Minoan%20fisherman%20fresco%20from%20Thera.jpg

Minoan fisherman

[Trun]

1. Minoan men were tanned, that's why IM thinks they were swarthy or Arabs. This picture shows women, and it was not normal for women to be tanned since they stayed at home.

2. Their features are of an European East Meds.

3. It doesn't matter where they've originated. All humans originated from Africa. Geographic conditions and UV factor is what matters more than genetics for a long-term period.

[Mortimer]

1. Minoan men were tanned, that's why IM thinks they were swarthy or Arabs. This picture shows women, and it was not normal for women to be tanned since they stayed at home.

2. Their features are of an European East Meds.

3. It doesn't matter where they've originated. All humans originated from Africa. Geographic conditions and UV factor is what matters more than genetics for a long-term period.

maybe like the other old civilizations they prefered women as light skinned, thats why they depicted them as light skinned, yet there are pictures of women who are brown skinned. and care to explain why they all have black hair? its not normal for europeans to have all black hair.

[Queen B]

So today's Sephardi may consist of many converted southern Italians or Greeks?

Greeks Jews are called Romaniotes. Converted or not.

you choose the most depigmented picture of them when there are plenty of brown ones, but they still look arab from features and have black hair. if minoans were regular euroepans there would have been ones with light hair because in every european subrace there is variation, only in non-european 95% have black hair..... but there is no picture where they have light hair


I don't know how Minoans looked like to be honest, but do you really judge by paintings?

We are lucky that the popular art wasn't Picasso that time :lol:

[Mortimer]

http://minoancivilization.net/images/Minoan%20fisherman%20fresco%20from%20Thera.jpg

Minoan fisherman

this is not light hair, this is a cap/headcover

http://www.talariaenterprises.com/images/man_and_fish2.jpeg

[Trun]

maybe like the other old civilizations they prefered women as light skinned, thats why they depicted them as light skinned, yet there are pictures of women who are brown skinned. and care to explain why they all have black hair? its not normal for europeans to have all black hair.

This is dark brown hair which appears black. Why don't you take it that way?

[Mortimer]

This is dark brown hair which appears black. Why don't you take it that way?

same can be said about everyone with black hair, or hair who looks black. how can you know it from the painting? admitt it just looks black. :)

but enough of me now.

[Leliana]

My comment was not contingent on whether or not the poll is public.. obviously I am smart enough to check. It was more "How could someone possibly think the answer to the question is Gypsies or blacks?"
I could ask you the same about Turks.

I'm not going to vote for any group because none is close enough to Europe.

[memobekes]

But if you go to the Eastern part the people aren't very European/White looking. Very dark arab looking...
No, not at all.

Eastern Anatolia is inhabited mostly by Kurds and who on average do not look nothing like Arabs.

You should also provide scientific evidence when making a point.

Carleton S. Coon, described the Kurds in the following words:


The present-day Kurds are partial or complete nomads who graze their flocks in the three countries of Iraq, Iran, and Turkey, and who, owing to their warlike activities, have been periodically ejected from each. They are tall men, with a mean stature which, although variable by tribal groups, lies usually between 168 and 170 cm.30 The mean cephalic index of Kurdish tribesmen measured in Kurdistan and the Caucasic region is consistently 77 or 78; the Kurds have preserved their dolichocephaly intact. Their pigmentation is for the most part brunet, although there is a distinct blond minority which, as with the Riffians, has led travellers to describe the Kurds, as a whole, as blond; their nasal profiles are usually convex or straight, and their total metrical character, so far as it is known, indicates that they are a mixture between the Irano-Afghan racial type described earlier in this section and the ancestral Iranian Nordics, with a larger minority of the latter factor than is usual in Iran. Culturally racially they have conserved the ancestral type with more fidelity than the majority of their linguistic brethren. It is particularly remarkable that, living in close proximity to pronounced brachycephals in Anatolia, Armenia, and the Caucasus, the majority of them have preserved their ancient dolichocephaly.

Source: The Races of Europe, 1939.

[Azerval]

I voted Jews (Ashkenazim /Sephardim) for the closest group to the Europeans out of all the ones on the list. Then comes the Turks next after.

[riverman]

I'm not sure the Turks would be closer than Persians, and there seems to be quite a bit of variation among gypsies.

[Mercury]

Culturally and genetically it would have to be the Jews

[AFC_Lad]

Jews (Ashkenazim & Sephardim) and Anatolian Turks

are you having a laugh.. anatolian turks over persians.. are you even european?

[Joe McCarthy]

Persians have little connection to Europe other than a vague Indo-European language link. They opposed Rome, Byzantium, and have had little connection to Europe of any kind except to be its enemy going back to Marathon (Europe's first enemy, in fact). That they're Islamic, and particularly radical ones at that, just adds to the separation.

[Mercury]

The Indo-Aryans that invaded Iran have mixed with lesser men such as the Elamites. Along with invasions by Mongols and some mixture with Arabs (which both Iranians & Arabs will deny vehemently) has changed Iran into a foreign entity. I'm sure ancient Persia at it's height had Europid/White leaders, but now we are much too different.

[Europa]

I voted for the Turks only because they have a lot of converted and enslaved Slavs in their country..

[Gaztelu]

are you having a laugh.. anatolian turks over persians.. are you even european?

Do you really want me to waste time explaining why Anatolian Turks are closer to Europeans than Iranians/Persians?