View Full Version : Vestards Simcus: We're dying out. Latvians are not a viable nation
Латвия потеряла свою независимость из-за огромных долгов. Латыши – нежизнеспособная нация, считает известный пианист, лауреат международных конкурсов Вестардс Шимкус.
«Мы все видим, что модель, в которой мы жили в последние десятилетия, развалилась. В этом плане я даже рад кризису, так как люди наконец-то видят, что эта модель развалилась», - комментирует нынешнюю ситуацию известный пианист Вестардс Шимкус.
В интервью Kultūras Diena Шимкус сказал: «Ужасно, если не можем вернуть кредиты и берем другие займы, чтобы выплатить предыдущие. Ну и? Что дальше?». «Я считаю, что мы, латыши, нежизнеспособная нация. Нас очень мало, мы вымираем и ничего в этом государстве не производим», - заявил он. По словам музыканта, в мире есть более жизнеспособные нации, которые, определенно, «займут наше место, жизненное пространство». «Ничего не поделаешь. Такова наша судьба, которую мы сами выбрали. Самоубийцы. Но вымирает и стареет весь западный мир», - отметил Шимкус.
Музыкант признает, что у западной цивилизации нет будущего. «Совершенно определено мы вымираем. Наши ценность – семья, религия – рухнули, стали малозначимыми. А если нет ценностей, нет позвоночника у всего общества – оно мертвое, общество-самоубийцa», - сказал он.
Inese
05-09-2009, 05:33 PM
Hm and now the same text with latin letters please for us Homo sapiens in the board!! :coffee: ^_^
Vestars Simkus is that http://www.kultura.lv/img.php?img=gal_s1482_1.jpg and is a musican who is political very in the left and has no political experience!!
for us Homo sapiens in the board!! :coffee: ^_^
Aren't you only 1/4 human? Even thou not very sapient...
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=45383&postcount=1
Thorum
05-09-2009, 06:04 PM
Это проблема всех маленьких стран. А что автор этой статьий имеет в виду нет ценностей? Ценности ест у всех, не зависисмо от размера государства. Считаю, что в Латвии много творческих талантливых людей. Многие актеры популярные в России из Латвии.
Единственную ценность которые они потеряли, это знание истории.. Но это уже политика государства.
Я считаю, что мы, латыши, нежизнеспособная нация. Нас очень мало, мы вымираем и ничего в этом государстве не производим
I believe that we, Latvians, are not a viable nation. We're very small in numbers, we're dying out and do not produce anything in this state.
Is not it what I'm talking about all the time? And there are many ethnic Latvians who say same things about Latvia.
Is not it what I'm talking about all the time? And there are many ethnic Latvians who say same things about Latvia.
So what do you propose, Hors? Bullying small nations that are struggling to survive? Is it not better to help those who are in need?
So what do you propose, Hors? Bullying small nations that are struggling to survive? Is it not better to help those who are in need?
Latvia is much like Rhodesia. As soon as the abos get the power the country goes down the drain.
Latvia is much like Rhodesia. As soon as the abos get the power the country goes down the drain.
Give them some time. They haven't been independent for so long ... I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt far sooner than Mugabe. Latvians are not much different from other Northern Europeans genetically, so there is no inherent inferiority. Neither is there with Russians. This is just a geopolitical hatred between Baltics and Russians -- which is rather petty.
More time? They've already squandered all what was left after the USSR/Russians and start STARVING.
They got more billions from IMF than UKRAINE, which is 20 times bigger. But it's still not enough. Are you ready to pay (continue paying) for their independence?
Finally, there cannot be any geopolitical hatred between Russians and Baltics. Baltics are not subjects of international politicy, they're objects of it.
Personally, I'm concerned about the Baltic States only because there are a lot of Russians there. Would not you support whites in Rhodesia or South Africa?
Inese
05-09-2009, 06:55 PM
Latvia is much like Rhodesia. As soon as the abos get the power the country goes down the drain.
I tell you in 5 years our economy is strong again and goes up!! LAtvia had strongest growing European economy before crisis!! I bet with you that all Baltic countrys make good out of the bad situation now.
More time? They've already squandered all what was left after the USSR/Russians and start STARVING.
They got more billions from IMF than UKRAINE, which is 20 times bigger. But it's still not enough. Are you ready to pay (continue paying) for their independence?
They can sort themselves out, I don't believe in chucking funds into a black hole. Given time, everything comes to a sort of equilibrium. But that's their country and their problem. They will find ways of dealing with it, just as Russia found ways of dealing with its poverty -- and it is still struggling with it.
Personally, I'm concerned about the Baltic States only because there are a lot of Russians there. Would not you support whites in Rhodesia or South Africa?
Why would Russians stay in Latvia if the economy there is so dire? Russia is a vast country with vast opportunities. The Russian minority in Latvia should go back to Mother Russia. Russia needs them! You are well aware of the demographic problem in Russia. Why not take in these ones from the Baltic?
They can sort themselves out,
Themselves? Ok, fine, but it doesn't look like they're returning/refusing 10 BILLIONS of "help" from the EU and IMF.
I don't believe in chucking funds into a black hole. Given time, everything comes to a sort of equilibrium. But that's their country and their problem. They will find ways of dealing with it, just as Russia found ways of dealing with its poverty -- and it is still struggling with it.
Yeah, Russia found the way to get more wealthy - that's to shrug off the parasite nations like Latvia.
Why would Russians stay in Latvia if the economy there is so dire?
It's their home,they're not immigrants.
Russia is a vast country with vast opportunities. The Russian minority in Latvia should go back to Mother Russia. Russia needs them! You are well aware of the demographic problem in Russia. Why not take in these ones from the Baltic?
Russia doesn't have any demographic problems. We don't need the ever increasing population to be able to muster a multi-million army to ensure our security, not any more.
Themselves? Ok, fine, but it doesn't look like they're returning/refusing 10 BILLIONS of "help" from the EU and IMF.
Neither is Ireland, Portugal or Greece. The EU is a huge wealth-distributionist monster as we all know.
Yeah, Russia found the way to get more wealthy - that's to shrug off the parasite nations like Latvia.
Russia is becoming more wealthy because of its vast natural resources.
It's their home,they're not immigrants.
Is Moscow the home of Azeris, Kazakhs and Georgians?
Russia doesn't have any demographic problems. We don't need the ever increasing population to be able to muster a multi-million army to ensure our security, not any more.
Vladimir Putin doesn't agree with you (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118551047/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0).
Neither is Ireland, Portugal or Greece. The EU is a huge wealth-distributionist monster as we all know.
It's countries with viable economies.
Russia is becoming more wealthy because of its vast natural resources.
Russia is becoming more wealthy because it stopped distributing them among parasite neighbouring nations.
Is Moscow the home of Azeris, Kazakhs and Georgians?
Nope.
Vladimir Putin doesn't agree with you (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118551047/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0).
I ain't no Putinist.
Thorum
05-09-2009, 07:38 PM
Hors, мой муж не имеет определенного мнения по этому вопросу. Так что отвечаю я его жена -русская :). Я конечно понимаю вашу озабоченность Латвией.. Но какой выход вы лично видите в этом вопросе? Просто не вижу никаких конкретных выводов. Выживут они как нация или нет спорный вопрос. И говорит об этом так громко очень рано. Время все расcтавит на свои места. Жалко конечно русских в Латвии, на Украине и еще много где. Но ничего грянет еще какая мировая все в Россию прийдут и еще в ножки упадут.:D
Выход такой: или лабусы признают за русскими равные политические, социальные и экономические права, или отправляются в Сибирь разгребать снег.
It's their home,they're not immigrants.
Is Moscow the home of Azeris, Kazakhs and Georgians?
Russians/direct ancestors of Russians reside in what's now the Baltic States for longer time than Anglo-Saxons reside in Britain.
Half of the Baltic cities are founded by Russians. The other half - by Germans.
If you don't believe that the Russian minority in the Baltic States should be treated no worse than the Baltic minority in Russia (the Empire and the USSR periods), that's like EQUALS, you should realize that the WAR is inevitable. And this time the cleansings will be for real.
Russians/direct ancestors of Russians reside in what's now the Baltic States for longer time than Anglo-Saxons reside in Britain.
The first Russians came to Estonia around the 17th century, because of religion, they were harassed in Russia. Only thousands, if not hundreds of Russians came.
The majority of Russians came in the 1950' 60's 70's and 80's.
Russians have been in Estonia as a visible minority for 50 years... Get your facts straight.
Another thing is that people should realize that the first state on the territory of what's now the Baltic States was the RUSSIAN one. It was Ancient or Kievan Rus.
http://cities.bentenac.com/kiev/map-kievan-rus.jpg
Eastern Estonia and Eastern Latvia were integral parts of Russia, there were several Russian principalities there. Western Estonia and Western Latvia were tribute territories of Russia. When Germans came in Middle Ages they asked permission of the Polotzk Russian princes to build RIGA.
And it's written history. But before that the land was populated originally by distant ancestors of Russians, while ancestors of Estonians and Latvians came later from their Urals Fartherland.
Another thing is that people should realize that the first state on the territory of what's now the Baltic States was the RUSSIAN one. It was Ancient or Kievan Rus.
http://cities.bentenac.com/kiev/map-kievan-rus.jpg
Eastern Estonia and Eastern Latvia were integral parts of Russia, there were several Russian principalities there. Western Estonia and Western Latvia were tribute territories of Russia. When Germans came in Middle Ages they asked permission of the Polotzk Russian princes to build RIGA.
And it's written history. But before that the land was populated originally by distant ancestors of Russians, while ancestors of Estonians and Latvians came later from their Urals Fartherland.
Estonians (called Chudes then) were one of the co-founders of Rus' Khaganate. Then it was ruled by Rurik. No Russians came here then.
Now to Kievan Rus. The modern city of Tartu was attacked by the Kievan Rus. The Kievan Rus held Tartu and the surrounding areas, for a SHORT period of time.
When the brave Estonian pagans took Tartu back, then all the Russians were slaughtered.
Holding 1 town for a short period of time, doesn't mean that Estonia is Russian.
By the way. Even the old and false theory says that Estonians have been here way before then any Slavs.
Edit: That map looks a bit false in some areas.
Estonians (called Chudes then) were one of the co-founders of Rus' Khaganate.
Chudes = Vepses.
No Russians came here then.
According to archeological data, Juriev (Tartu) had Slavic population even before the city was founded by princle Jaroslav the Wise.
Now to Kievan Rus. The modern city of Tartu was attacked by the Kievan Rus. The Kievan Rus held Tartu and the surrounding areas, for a SHORT period of time.
I have to agree. 200 years is a short period.
When the brave Estonian pagans took Tartu back, then all the Russians were slaughtered.
The Russian presence in Juriev/Tartu since 1030 till Ivan the Terrible times is undisputable. Juriev/Tartu always had the Russian end, and discrimination of the Russian minority, together with the refusal to pay the tribute for the land of the Taru/Dorpat district which was legally Russian was the reason for Ivan the Terrible to start the war.
Holding 1 town for a short period of time, doesn't mean that Estonia is Russian.
:)
http://historic.ru/books/item/f00/s00/z0000084/pic/map000.jpg
By the way. Even the old and false theory says that Estonians have been here way before then any Slavs.
I was not talking about Slavs, I was talking about their IE ancestors. Your FU Uralic invaders came and took their land, but FUs don't belong to Europe, they're colonists and should be deported back to Inner Mongolia.
Chudes = Vepses.
The Russian Primary Chronicle describes Chudes as cofounders of the Rus' Khaganate state along with Veps , Ilmen Slavs and Vikings.
See, a map where you can see the distinction between the Veps and the Chudes (btw, the lake between Estonia and Russia is called "Chudskoye ozera"):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Muromian-map.png/588px-Muromian-map.png
In other ancient East Slavic chronicles, the term "Chudes" refers to several Finnic tribes, proto-Estonian groups in particular.
Later, the word "Chudes" was more often used for more eastern Finnic peoples, Veps and Votes in particular.
Chudes = Vepses.
The term Chudes was first applied by a monk Nestor in the earliest Russian chronicles to proto-Estonians
According to archeological data, Juriev (Tartu) had Slavic population even before the city was founded by princle Jaroslav the Wise.
I have to agree. 200 years is a short period.
The Russian presence in Juriev/Tartu since 1030 till Ivan the Terrible times is undisputable. Juriev/Tartu always had the Russian end, and discrimination of the Russian minority, together with the refusal to pay the tribute for the land of the Taru/Dorpat district which was legally Russian was the reason for Ivan the Terrible to start the war.
:)
http://historic.ru/books/item/f00/s00/z0000084/pic/map000.jpg
I was not talking about Slavs, I was talking about their IE ancestors. Your FU Uralic invaders came and took their land, but FUs don't belong to Europe, they're colonists and should be deported back to Inner Mongolia.
:wtf
How much false info can be in a single post?
Does anyone have http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f399/myfask/258Troll_spray.jpg?t=1241905016
The Russian Primary Chronicle describes Chudes as cofounders of the Rus' Khaganate state along with Veps , Ilmen Slavs and Vikings.
It's Chud' (Vepses) and Merja (partially extinct, partially ancestors of Mari)
In other ancient East Slavic chronicles, the term "Chudes" refers to several Finnic tribes, proto-Estonian groups in particular.
While the term Chud' is indeed apllied to a wide range of FU tribes, from the Baltic Sea to Urals, the Nestor's Chud' are Vepses.
How much false info can be in a single post?
The one where you claimed that Juriev/Tartu was Russian for only a short period? and after that being in control of Estonians?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartu
The first documented record of the place was made in 1030 by chroniclers of Kievan Rus. Yaroslav I the Wise, Prince of Kiev, raided Tartu that year, built his own fort there, and named it Yuryev (literally "Yury's" - Yury being Yaroslav's Christian name). Kievan rulers then collected tribute from the surrounding ancient Estonian county of Ugaunia, possibly until 1061, when, according to chronicles, Yuryev was burned down by another tribe of Chudes (Sosols). It was then rebuilt by the Russians and again burned down in 1138 and then rebuild and strongly fastened by the Russians. In the 12th century it was the biggest Russian settlement in Chud territory.[4]
...
The city/territory ceased to be Russian only after the German crusaders took it back in the 13th century. But even after that there was a very sizeable Russian presence there, and a lot of Orthodox churches.
LOL
You fellers are just a bunch of Estonian clowns. That means you're not even funny.
SwordoftheVistula
05-09-2009, 10:27 PM
We're very small in numbers, we're dying out and do not produce anything in this state.
The same would apply Luxemburg, the Netherlands, and many other European countries.
GDP per Capita:
Estonia: $21,200
Latvia: $17,800
Lithuania: $17,700
Russia: $15,800
Belarus: $11,800
Another thing is that people should realize that the first state on the territory of what's now the Baltic States was the RUSSIAN one. It was Ancient or Kievan Rus.
http://cities.bentenac.com/kiev/map-kievan-rus.jpg
The Kievan Rus were descended from viking (Scandinavian) traders called Varangians
The same would apply Luxemburg, the Netherlands, and many other European countries.
LOL
Unilever, Heineken, Royal Dutch Shell, Philips etc. are Dutch companies.
Luxemburg is a leader in steel production. And, by the way, Skype is in Luxemburg now. Bye-bye, Estonia :D
The Kievan Rus were descended from viking (Scandinavian) traders called Varangians
Post more info ASAP. I'm very interested in the subject :D
SwordoftheVistula
05-09-2009, 10:47 PM
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0850487.html
Varangians (vurăn'jēunz) [key], name given by Slavs and Byzantine Greeks to Scandinavians who began to raid the eastern shores of the Baltic and penetrate Eastern Europe by the 9th cent. Their leader, Rurik, established himself at Novgorod in 862, thus laying the traditional foundation for Kievan Rus. The Varangians, some of whom were known also as Rus or Rhos, made their way down the Dnieper and established the great trade route from Kiev to Byzantium. In the 9th and 10th cent. they repeatedly threatened Constantinople. During the 10th and 11th cent. they served as soldiers of East Slavic princes, but they gradually merged with the Slavs, adopting Slavic culture. Other Varangians served as mercenary troops to the emperors at Constantinople. Varangian migrations paralleled those of the Norsemen and Vikings in the West.
http://www.knowledgerush.com/kr/jsp/db/viewWiki.jsp?title=Varangian
Varangian
The Varangians were Vikings who travelled eastwards from Sweden. Promoting trading, piracy and mercenary militarism, they roamed the river systems and portages of what later became Russia, reaching the Caspian Sea and Constantinople.
Rus'
The Varangians (Varyags, in Russian) are first mentioned by the Russian Primary Chronicle as having arrived from beyond the Baltic Sea around the mid-9th century, invited by the warring Slavic and Fennic tribes to bring peace to the region. They were led by Rurik and his two brothers Askold and Dir, who settled around the Slavic town of Novgorod. These early Varangians were likely legendary, but a real Swedish settlement, Aldeigjuborg, was established around Lake Ladoga in the 8th century. The Slavic inhabitants called these Swedes Rus'.
http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/varangians.shtml
The Scandinavian Advance Eastwards
The Viking Road East: Peoples and Cities Prior to the advent of written Scandinavian history, the Danes and Swedes were launching raids and settlements Eastwards across the Baltic. The reason for these warlike activities was wealth in the form of amber and furs which were looted or taxed from the Finns, Wends, Slavs, and others living in the eastern Baltic region. Russia itself was not subject to the swords of the Scandinavians except for scattered raids until ca. 850 AD The first evidence of this movement eastwards into Russia is provided by the biography of Bishop Anskar of Hamburg written by his successor, Rimbert, who tells of how the Swedish king Olaf of Uppsala sent an army to to punish rebellious Kurlanders and opportunistic Danes at Apulia in Lithuania. Shortly thereafter, as recorded in the Russian Primary Chronicle, a Scandinavian tribe called Rus appears, and by 859 had begun taxing the Slavs and Finns.
The usual pattern of Scandinavian advance was begun with armed traders, who having once detected a lucrative source of goods, established fortified centers with permanent warbands in residence to hold their gains. As these outposts prospered, settlement occurred around these garrisons, creating towns and trading cities. Once the lands and peoples in the vicinity were pacified, the process would be repeated further east. An excellent example of the start of such a pattern is to be found in Egils saga skallagrímssonar, where Egil and his brother Thorolfr travel to Kurland for both trade and raiding.
Arabic Silver Coins Silver was the main lure which brought Scandinavian traders into Russia. The Islamic world provided the silver from mines in Tashkent and Afghanistan. The trade was very important, being centered at Bulghar or the Middle Volga, capital of the Northern Bulgar. The Northern Bulgar, on account of the extensive silver trade they managed, became known as the Silver Bulgars. After the fall of the Roman Empire, Scandinavia had no source of gold or silver readily available, except that which they obtained via plunder of from the Islamic trade.
Trade through Russia was difficult in part because of hostile Slavic tribes, including the Krivichi (near Smolensk), the Dreovichi and Drevljane (west of the Dneiper), the Radimichi (east of the Dneiper), the Pechinegs, Poljani and Magyars (on the lower Dneiper), and the Khazars (east of the Slavs). Traders had to be as much warriors as businessmen, for the Slavic tribes a significant hazard. As a result, bands of Scandinavians who travelled eastwards joined formally as companies, swearing oaths of mutual assistance, defense, and support. The term for such an oath in Old Norse is var, and these eastern adventurers became known as Varangians.
Who were the Rus?
Russian Statue of Rurik According to the Russian Primary Chronicle (ca. 1040-1118 AD), the Rus were a group of "Varangians," possibly of Swedish origin, who had a leader named Rurik. Rus appears to be derived from the Finnish word for Sweden, *Rotsi, later Ruotsi, which in turn comes from Old Swedish rother, a word associated with rowing or ships, so that rothskarlar meant "rowers" or "seamen."
Due to civil strife in Russia, the leaders invited Rurik and his Rus kinsmen to come rule over them:
"6370 (862 BC) ...Discord thus ensued among them, and they began to war one against another. They said to themselves, 'Let us seek a prince who may rule over us, and judge us according to the law.' They accordingly went overseas to the Varangian Rus: these particular Varangians were known as Rus, just as some are called Swedes, and others Normans, Angles, and Goths, for they were thus named. The Chuds, the Slavs, and the Krivichians then said to the people of Rus: 'Our whole land is great and rich, but there is nor order in it. Come to rule and reign over us.' They thus selected three brothers, with their kinfolk, who took with them all the Rus, and migrated. The oldest, Rurik, located himself in Novgorod; the second, Sinaeus, in Beloozero; and the third, Truvor, in Izborsk. On account of these Varangians, the district of Novgorod became known as Russian (Rus) land. The present inhabitants of Novgorod are descended from the Varangian race, but aforetime they were Slavs." (Russian Primary Chronicle)
Building Novgorod
Most of the campaigns of the originally Swedish rulers of Russia, the Rus, are recorded in the Russian Primary Chronicle and in the works of Greek and Arabic chroniclers. The Rus were in contact with Byzantium as early as 838, but did not have the resources to raid the capital at Constantinople prior to that date. The 838 date is supported by a Byzantine account that records that a party of Swedish traders had to turn back to the Greek city because their way north up the Dneiper was blocked by "savage tribes", perhaps the Magyars.
In 860 the Normans, following a successful campaign in the Mediterranean, attacked Constantinople. Though the Normans were the descendants of Vikings, by this date they had been absorbed into the feudal Frankish culture of their new Normandy home. Byzantine forces, particularly the fleet, were also occupied with a campaign against the Arabs to their east. This was the moment when the Rus launched their first assault against Miklagard, the Golden City, led by the Rus leaders Askold and Dir.
Patriarch Photius The Rus attack in June, 860 is best described in the Greek sermons of the Patriarch Photius. Photius's sermon described the fury of the attack, the terror of the Greeks, and the great loss of life and property outside the City. Photius says that the attack took the Greeks completely by surprise, "like a thunderbolt from heaven." Photius goes on to describe the Rus as a fierce and savage tribe of barbarian people, completely unknown and insignificant until they became famous in this attack. Internal details in the account show that the Rus launched the attack down the Dneiper, originating at Kiev. Various other accounts set the numbers of the attacking Rus force between 200 and 2000 ships. The 200 figure is most likely correct, and these ships would have consisted of small ships, basically a hybrid between a dugout canoe and the familiar clinker-built Viking ship.
Despite the Greeks' being taken by surprise and the fact that Byzantium was inadequately defended in the absence of their fleet with its deadly weapon, Greek Fire, for some reason the Rus did not take the City. The Greek sources attribute this to a miracle, brought about by the singing of hymns to the Virgin and a procession around the City walls, led by the Patriarch, bearing the robe of the Virgin about the City, which apparently resulted in a huge storm which scattered the Rus forces and saved the City. Undoubtedly the detail of the storm is accurate. Russian sources, including the Primary Chronicle, state that the Rus returned to Kiev ignomiously, claiming no victory. Perhaps any plunder that might have been gained in attacking the outlying areas of Byzantium were lost in the flight before the storm.
Between 864 and 867, a party of Rus were sent to Basil I to negotiate a peace after the 860 attack, and many of the members of this embassy specifically requested instruction in Christianity. It is thought that perhaps the Greek claims of the miracle of the Virgin's robe may have impressed the pagan Rus embassy.
This marks the beginning of a period of amicable relationships between the Greeks and the Rus, for this is the point at which the Rus begin taking service in the Byzantine army.
Meanwhile, the failed Rus captains Askold and Dir were put to death by Oleg (Helgi, in Old Norse), the Rus ruler of Novgorod and foster father of Rurik's son Igor (Old Norse Ingvarr). Oleg became ruler in Kiev as well as in Novgorod. With this consolidation of Rus power, Oleg acquired enough power to be able to launch his own attack upon Byzantium in 907, according to the Primary Chronicle. When Oleg's forces arrived in the Golden Horn, they found the sea-lanes closed by the great chain closing the mouth of the Horn. The Rus disembarked, killed the Greek garrison, and mounted their ships on wheels or rollers and let the wind help carry the boats overland to reach the Bosphorus and so come to the City. The Russian Primary Chronicle claims that the Greeks tried to feed Oleg and his men poisoned food, which he shrewdly refused, then the Greeks promised to pay Oleg tribute. Oleg demanded silk sails for his ships and linen sails for his allies' ships, along with wine, gold and fruit. The Chronicle also claims that Oleg hung his shield over the City gate as a sign of victory. However, there is absolutely no corroboration from Greek sources documenting this attack, leading modern historians to believe that the whole tale was made up using details of previous raids on Byzantium in order to create a "hero tale" which glorified Oleg, or else that a small raid by Oleg's men was magnified into a major campaign and victory.
In 907, and later in 911, the Byzantines negotiated a trade treaty with the Rus which put an end to raids aginst Byzantium for many years.
The next attack recorded by the Primary Chronicle is in 941, an attack led by Igor, son of Rurik and foster-son to Oleg. This account is corroborated by a detailed account by Liutprand, later Bishop of Cremona, who happened to be in Byzantium in 949 on a diplomatic mission. Liutprand's step-father had been present for the 941 attack. The Greeks met this threat by quickly equipping a number of older ships and galleys with Greek Fire projectors, and launched these against the Rus. When the fleets met, the seas were clear and calm, perfect for the use of the dangerous Greek Fire. The Rus threw themselves into the sea to drown in great numbers rather than face the flames. Only those men who managed to get their ships to the shore quickly ebough survived, because the Greek ships with their much deeper draught could not follow them into the shallows. A number of captured Rus were later publicly beheaded.
In 944 Igor returned with yet another fleet, including an army of Slavs and Pechinegs as well. The Emperor, hearing advance word of this attack, "paid Danegeld" by offering to pay the Rus tribute. The Rus forces then turned to attack the Caspian area Arabs. During this attack, a great protion of the Rus forces were either posioned as described in the Arabic sources, or more likely contracted a virulemnt epidemic that decimated their forces.
Legend has it that Rurik founded a dynasty that endured until 1598 AD, when Fedor, the son of Ivan IV, died without an heir.
I was not talking about Slavs, I was talking about their IE ancestors. Your FU Uralic invaders came and took their land, but FUs don't belong to Europe, they're colonists and should be deported back to Inner Mongolia.
Well, fact of the matter is that a substantial proportion of the Russian ethnic makeup derives from a Finnic substratum, that was occupying the vast areas of Northwest Russia before the arrival of the Indo-European Slavs. These Slavs gradually assimilated them. I've heard that even the name Moscow is of Finnic origin -- derived from the Finnic tribe Moksa who lived in the area.
I believe Russians have around 15% of the Finnic haplogroup N, is this correct?
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/01/russian-y-chromosomes.html
It's Chud' (Vepses) and Merja (partially extinct, partially ancestors of Mari)
When it comes to the chronicle about the founding of Kievan Rus, there was a distinction between Chuds and the Vepses and the Merya! Primarily the word has been used for proto-Estonians.
Russian primary chronicle: "Upon year 6367 [859 C.E.]: Varangians from over the sea had tribute from Chuds, Slavs, Merias, Veses [i.e. Vepsians], Krivichs. ...
They said to themselves, let us seek a prince who may rule over us, and judge us according to custom. Thus they went overseas to the Varangians, to the Rus."
I was not talking about Slavs, I was talking about their IE ancestors. Your FU Uralic invaders came and took their land...
Europe was settled thousands of years before IE languages arrived to Europe, just for your knowledge.
The region of Estonia has been populated since the end of the Late Pleistocene Ice Age, about 10,000 BC. They too are our direct ancestors.
The Comb Ceramic Culture [4000BC] has been associated with the Finnic languages but it has been suggested that the increase of settlement finds in the period is more likely to have been associated with an economic boom related to the warming of climate. Thus some researchers have argued that a Uralic form of language may have been spoken in Estonia and Finland since the end of the last glaciation.
IE speakers arrived to Estonia around 2000BC, not Slavs but Balts and Germanics.
Russians assimilated Finno-Ugrics when they arrived to the area - Northern Russians are genetically almost identical to us and Northwest Russia is full of place names of Finnic origin.
Well, fact of the matter is that a substantial proportion of the Russian ethnic makeup derives from a Finnic substratum, that was occupying the vast areas of Northwest Russia before the arrival of the Indo-European Slavs. These Slavs gradually assimilated them. I've heard that even the name Moscow is of Finnic origin -- derived from the Finnic tribe Moksa who lived in the area.
I believe Russians have around 15% of the Finnic haplogroup N, is this correct?
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/01/russian-y-chromosomes.html
Most of Russians (that's Southern and Central Russians) have 5-10% of N. It does not make them Finnic.
It's an established fact that before Finnics Eastern Europe was populated by Indo-Europeans.
As for Moscow... the Moksa live and always lived many hundreds of kilometers away from Moscow, there is no linguistical connection at all.
There are places named like "Moscow" all over Slavdom. For example, there is a river named Moskawa in Poland:
http://i033.radikal.ru/0801/e4/db4f016ad7ac.jpg
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moskawa
Most of Russians (that's Southern and Central Russians) have 5-10% of N. It does not make them Finnic.
Even they show traces of assimilating the Finnics, it is especially evident with Northern Russians.
It's an established fact that before Finnics Eastern Europe was populated by Indo-Europeans.
What is an established fact is that East Slavs came to Finnic territory around the 7th century AD and then started to assimilate the Finnic-speaking population. Some of the Finnic tribes were completely assimilated to Russians, like the Merya and Muromians. Others still remain but many of them still face heavy Russification.
As for Moscow... the Moksa live and always lived many hundreds of kilometers away from Moscow, there is no linguistical connection at all.
While the Merya were the majority in Moscow area in the 12th century. Even most Central Russian toponyms have Finno-Ugric roots, not to mention Northern ones.
What is an established fact is that East Slavs came to Finnic territory around the 7th century AD and then started to assimilate the Finnic-speaking population.
Well, Slavs as Indo-Europeans were reclaiming the territory of their forefathers from non-European, Uralic invaders, that's the Finno-Ugrians. What's wrong with it?
And it's evident that there wasn't much of assimilation. Finnish and Baltic settlements are all ravaged, according to archeological data. The presence of FU blood in contemporary Russsians is the result of Russification, which happened relatively recently, rather than medieval Slavization of Finno-Ugrians.
Both Merya and Muroma tribes participated in the process of formation of contemporary Volga Finnic ethnicities. So none of Finnic tribes was completely assimilated.
Others still remain but many of them still face heavy Russification.
God forbid. But people always tend to adopt a superior culture...
While the Merya were the majority in Moscow area in the 12th century. Even most Central Russian toponyms have Finno-Ugric roots, not to mention Northern ones.
The Merya NEVER were in Moscow. FU toponyms are numerous only in NE of the Moscow region.
Well, Slavs as Indo-Europeans were reclaiming the territory of their forefathers from non-European, Uralic invaders, that's the Finno-Ugrians. What's wrong with it?
There is nothing to base than on - archeologically the arrival of Indo-Europeans to Europe is associated with the Corded Ware culture. Comb Ceramic culture associated with the Finnics was here before. And even before that there were proto-European Paleolithic cultures and who knows what language they spoke (some researchers say Basque-type languages in the West and perhaps already Finno-Ugric in the North and East).
And it's evident that there wasn't much of assimilation. Finnish and Baltic settlements are all ravaged, according to archeological data. The presence of FU blood in contemporary Russsians is the result of Russification, which happened relatively recently, rather than medieval Slavization of Finno-Ugrians.
Yes, Russification happened especially during the Soviet era. But the assimilation did happen even before, like when the locals adopted Orthodox Christianity.
God forbid. But people always tend to adopt a superior culture...
Or when it becomes a necessity to get by in a society where your own culture and language are being suppressed.
The Merya NEVER were in Moscow.
I doubt not a single Merya (the majority in the region) never stepped his foot on the small newly-founded Slavic town of Moscow. One theory is that the name comes from the Moscow river as the Finnics called it, surely there are other theories and I won't dispute that.
There is nothing to base than on - archeologically the arrival of Indo-Europeans to Europe is associated with the Corded Ware culture.
Stop bullshitting people, nobody but Finnics would buy your funny agenda.
Comb Ceramic culture associated with the Finnics was here before. And even before that there were proto-European Paleolithic cultures and who knows what language they spoke (some researchers say Basque-type languages in the West and perhaps already Finno-Ugric in the North and East).
Whatever languages they spoke they were ancestors of Slavs and Balts, not Finnics. No other options, there are not too many genetical markers in Eastern Europe...
Yes, Russification happened especially during the Soviet era. But the assimilation did happen even before, like when the locals adopted Orthodox Christianity.
Orthodox Finnics have retained their ethnic identity. Actually even now 95% of Russian Finnics are Orthodox, it does not make them Russian.
Or when it becomes a necessity to get by in a society where your own culture and language are being suppressed.
Well, if one wants to migrate 1000 miles to that society, why not?
I doubt not a single Merya (the majority in the region) never stepped his foot on the small newly-founded Slavic town of Moscow.
Neither they were around, speaking in hundreds of kilometers distances...
Stop bullshitting people, nobody but Finnics would buy your funny agenda.
What? You think I came up with this!? - archeologists did. Indo-European migration to Europe coincides with the arrival of agriculture. This is also why words related to agriculture have Baltic origins in (at least) Baltic-Finnic languages.
Whatever languages they spoke they were ancestors of Slavs and Balts, not Finnics. No other options, there are not too many genetical markers in Eastern Europe...
They were also the ancestors of Finnics, the proto-Europeans just adopted new languages. Genetically Lithuanians are "more Finnic" than Estonians.
Orthodox Finnics have retained their ethnic identity. Actually even now 95% of Russian Finnics are Orthodox, it does not make them Russian.
With the arrival of Christianity, surely many did assimilate to the Slavic-speaking population - especially the more "progressive" or "elite" of them, for the lack of a better word. Just like higher status Estonians assimilated to Baltic Germans and Finns to local Swedes.
What? You think I came up with this!? - archeologists did. Indo-European migration to Europe coincides with the arrival of agriculture. This is also why words related to agriculture have Baltic origins in (at least) Baltic-Finnic languages.
There are a lot of theories. Everyone who is claiming that one of them true, if he's not an established scientist, should be deemed a retard.
They were also the ancestors of Finnics, the proto-Europeans just adopted new languages. Genetically Lithuanians are "more Finnic" than Estonians.
More or less true.
With the arrival of Christianity, surely many did assimilate to the Slavic-speaking population - especially the more "progressive" or "elite" of them, for the lack of a better word.
The process was not wide-scale as there was not mass migration of Slavs/Russians into Northern Russia and Middle Volga, until recent times. In other words, there wasn't a Slavic speaking population in finnic areas to assimilate in... Finnics still did not speak much of Russian even in 19th centuries... I'm just reading Solovyev about the second half of the 18th century, Volga ethnicities despite being formally Orthodox still did not speak much of Russian...
Osweo
05-19-2009, 12:35 AM
The first Russians came to Estonia around the 17th century,
Rubbish. You Estonians need to stop being the mirror image of your pseudohistorian Russian foes. You're both as laughable as each other. :rolleyes:
And Xopc, you say sensible stuff like this;
Eastern Estonia and Eastern Latvia were integral parts of Russia, there were several Russian principalities there. Western Estonia and Western Latvia were tribute territories of Russia. When Germans came in Middle Ages they asked permission of the Polotzk Russian princes to build RIGA.
And then let yourself down with drivel like this;
And it's written history. But before that the land was populated originally by distant ancestors of Russians, while ancestors of Estonians and Latvians came later from their Urals Fartherland.
:rolleyes2::(
The Kievan Rus held Tartu and the surrounding areas, for a SHORT period of time.
An exaggeration, but notice that you're already contradicting your earlier absolute statements. :rolleyes2:
When the brave Estonian pagans took Tartu back, then all the Russians were slaughtered.
Including women and children, then? Dead brave... :rolleyes:
By the way. Even the old and false theory says that Estonians have been here way before then any Slavs.
THis is true. And largely indisputable.
Chudes = Vepses.
Chudes = Chudes.
Ves' = Veps.
Zavolotskie Chud' = somebody else, but linguistically very close to Veps. (Substrata in Komi and Pomorian toponymy are enough to demonstrate this.)
According to archeological data, Juriev (Tartu) had Slavic population even before the city was founded by princle Jaroslav the Wise.
I have to agree. 200 years is a short period.
The Russian presence in Juriev/Tartu since 1030 till Ivan the Terrible times is undisputable. Juriev/Tartu always had the Russian end, and discrimination of the Russian minority, together with the refusal to pay the tribute for the land of the Taru/Dorpat district which was legally Russian was the reason for Ivan the Terrible to start the war.
Aye.
I was not talking about Slavs, I was talking about their IE ancestors.
I suggest to take your own perennial advice, and not talk about things of which you have little experience or knowledge. :rolleyes:
THere does appear to have been a IE presence even as far north as Finland, but this assimilated into the Esths and Finns, while conversely gaining the upper hand linguistically among the Letts and Lithuanians. This is thus a Baltic speaking substrate, not Slavonic or even BaltoSlavonic.
Your FU Uralic invaders came and took their land, but FUs don't belong to Europe, they're colonists and should be deported back to Inner Mongolia.
Pure drivel. You should be ashamed of yourself for this. :rolleyes2:
I've heard that even the name Moscow is of Finnic origin -- derived from the Finnic tribe Moksa who lived in the area.
Eee, no! A BALTIC etymology is the most sensible. I can provide details elsewhere if people are interested. Finnic arguments are just poor guesswork and coincidence.
Europe was settled thousands of years before IE languages arrived to Europe, just for your knowledge.
An extra-European Urheimat is FAR from the only or most sensible hypothesis. We cannot gloat about 'knowledge' in this matter. A Danubian homeland has much going for it, indeed...
IE speakers arrived to Estonia around 2000BC, not Slavs but Balts and Germanics.
Horrendously simplistic.
Russians assimilated Finno-Ugrics when they arrived to the area - Northern Russians are genetically almost identical to us and Northwest Russia is full of place names of Finnic origin.
The 'tsokayuschie' dialects are also an interesting trace. People who say 'ts' where standard Russian has 'Ch'. They match early Finnic distributions..
It's an established fact that before Finnics Eastern Europe was populated by Indo-Europeans.
All the way up to Naryan Mar? Are you serious? What rot!
As for Moscow... the Moksa live and always lived many hundreds of kilometers away from Moscow, there is no linguistical connection at all.
Absolutely true.
There are places named like "Moscow" all over Slavdom. For example, there is a river named Moskawa in Poland:
A Balto-Slavonic root cognate with English 'mush', most likely.
While the Merya were the majority in Moscow area in the 12th century.
Nonsense. We have to bear in mind differing population densities for groups with differing subsistence strategies. The Merya were largely swamped by numbers, as well as social structures and geographical marginalisation. And Balts like the Golyadi were probably more numerous than Merya in Podmoskovye, anyway...
Even most Central Russian toponyms have Finno-Ugric roots, not to mention Northern ones.
That is a really stupid thing to say. MOST names are reasonably recent (mediaeval), and involve Christian names followed by possessive suffixes.
And it's evident that there wasn't much of assimilation. Finnish and Baltic settlements are all ravaged, according to archeological data.
Fantasy. I've translated several academic papers on the Fatyanovo and Dyakovo cultures etc. Most settlements remain populated to the present day.
The presence of FU blood in contemporary Russsians is the result of Russification, which happened relatively recently, rather than medieval Slavization of Finno-Ugrians.
Why not BOTH?
:rolleyes2:
The Merya NEVER were in Moscow. FU toponyms are numerous only in NE of the Moscow region.
Mostly true, but why the absolute Black/White 'never'? :rolleyes:
Indo-European migration to Europe coincides with the arrival of agriculture. This is also why words related to agriculture have Baltic origins in (at least) Baltic-Finnic languages.
That's Renfrew's theory, and it's rubbish. It seems logical, superficially, so it receives more attention than its worth. He knows nothing of linguistics, and shouldn't stick his nose into the discipline.
ANYROAD...
What an arsehole that Simcus is! Birthrate fetishism and blind worship of foreign economic models are not the measure of a nation's zhiznesposobnost!
Fantasy. I've translated several academic papers on the Fatyanovo and Dyakovo cultures etc. Most settlements remain populated to the present day.
UFO academy papers? :D
Translate this, Mr. Knowlittle:
http://xlt.narod.ru/texts/djak.html
В VI—VII вв. н.э. культура переживает заметный кризис, причины которого на сегодняшний день не совсем ясны. Сокращается число поселений. Уменьшается количество привозных вещей. Тем не менее среди импортов того времени есть редкие и интересные находки, такие как бронзовые колокольчики с полями, найденные на Дьяковом городище, вещи, родиной которых были прибалтийские земли.
В настоящий момент нет никакого сомнения в том, что VII—VIII вв. являются финалом дьяковской культуры Москворечья. Таким образом между позднедьяковскими и первыми славянскими памятниками, появившимися в бассейне Москвы-реки на рубеже X—XI вв., возникает временная лакуна длиной почти в 200—300 лет, который условно называется археологами “темными веками”.
Osweo
05-22-2009, 09:36 PM
Translate this, Mr. Knowlittle:
http://xlt.narod.ru/texts/djak.html
Your own link is far more cautious and sensible than you, Hors! See:
Укрепления того же Дьякова городища отстраивались заново не менее шести раз. Для чего же нужна была такая защита? Какая опасность грозила обитателям городищ? Почему горели деревянные укрепления – в результате простого пожара или при военных столкновениях? Ответы на эти вопросы до сих пор остаются открытыми.
The question should not be '"Why did wooden fortifications burn?", but "Why were they not rebuilt, as many times before, at the end of the 'Dyakovo' period? Slaughtering of the natives to a man is not necessary for this, just the establishment of a modus vivendi between them and the incomers. The locals probably didn't relish the prospect of the new Baltic rule too much, but it's unnecessary to envisage extreme oppression and genocide. Many might even have been relieved in a way, to no longer have to man their local chief's fortress and fight for his rights, or to contribute to costly communal defence works. Only fortress building and rich deposits cease in this 'dark age', nobody is suggesting the land was devastated utterly.
Another thing in your link that contradicts your inferred certainty as to the abrupt end of Dyakovo settlement:
С одной стороны на славянских памятниках нет никаких, даже слабых, следов контактов с позднедьяковским населением, с другой стороны необъяснимым остается тот факт, что многие гидронимы бассейна Москвы-реки сохранили свои древние балтские и даже финские названия.
And we're talking about pretty minor pritoki here, too. Not the sort of thing that is preserved without intimate and long lived contact and assimilation.
Historical chronicles witness interactions here between natives and Slavs. The famous instance is in Yuri Dolgoruky's day with the Golyad' on the river Protva south of Moscow. There is a lacuna in the archaeology sure, but as they always say 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'. Settlement continued, without doubt, it's just that archaeologists have not been able to perceive it yet. The evidence you highlighted points as much to an internal crisis in preBaltic-Podmoskov'ye as to external destruction.
The parallels with Britain's 'Dark Ages' are legion. Especially in the recent historiography; we in Britain used to think more like you with regard to the substrate populations, but have come to adopt a more realistic view lately.
Oh, and can I assume from your silence on the other comments that you've humbly accepted their contents, and are now a reformed character, free of mad fairy tales concerning recent enormous Finnic invasions from beyond Ural? :P
Your own link is far more cautious and sensible than you, Hors!
В настоящий момент нет никакого сомнения в том, что VII—VIII вв. являются финалом дьяковской культуры Москворечья.
Translation: Nowdays there is no doubt that VII-VIII centuries are the final stage of the Dyakovo culture of the Moscow region.
What could be more unambigious than "no doubt"?
Another thing in your link that contradicts your inferred certainty as to the abrupt end of Dyakovo settlement
Don't shaffle the cards, Mr. Trikster. Your original claim was about Dyakovo settlements. Well, they were gone 200-300 years before Slavs arrived in the region. So much for your translation of "academic papers"... And another your claim, about continuity of Fatjanovo settlements, is even funnier, as they preceded even the Dyakovo culture...
As for the question you rise, you should realize that the population density was very very scarce back then, and it would have taken only a couple of roaming bands of Finnic hunter-gatherers to preserve the names.
Settlement continued, without doubt, it's just that archaeologists have not been able to perceive it yet.
So far it's established that all pre-Slavic settlements in the Moscow region were either abandonded (Finnic ones) or ravaged (Baltic ones) by the time Slavs arrived in the region.
Oh, and can I assume from your silence on the other comments that you've humbly accepted their contents,
I don't see a point in debunking all your unsubstantiated theories. One example is enough to discredit you.
Osweo
05-23-2009, 08:54 PM
В настоящий момент нет никакого сомнения в том, что VII—VIII вв. являются финалом дьяковской культуры Москворечья.
Translation: Nowdays there is no doubt that VII-VIII centuries are the final stage of the Dyakovo culture of the Moscow region.
What could be more unambigious than "no doubt"?
In these terms 'Dyakovo' is defined by fortress building and certain items of material culture. I was talking about ethnic groups, something archaeology is not so direct about. As I see it, the Merya and Balts stopped living a certain way, and so certain Material Cultures (which is all modest honest archaeologists claim to be following) can be seen to have come to an end. There is still biological and linguistic continuity, however.
Don't shaffle the cards, Mr. Trikster. Your original claim was about Dyakovo settlements. Well, they were gone 200-300 years before Slavs arrived in the region.
The characteristic fortresses were gone. I refuse to believe that there was no human population in such a rich area for three centuries. Is that what you see as having happened? As I see it, their poliitcal and material culture had imploded, but the beehives still needed tending and the rivers fished.
So much for your translation of "academic papers"... And another your claim, about continuity of Fatjanovo settlements, is even funnier, as they preceded even the Dyakovo culture...
Yet Finnic toponymy and some folkloric elements survived the Balts and the Slav's incursions. You use them today. Ever noticed how your 'Eniki beniki yeli vareniki' children's rhyme very closely mirrors Finnic counting?
As for the question you rise, you should realize that the population density was very very scarce back then, and it would have taken only a couple of roaming bands of Finnic hunter-gatherers to preserve the names.
You'd need more settled population to preserve the minor tributaries' names. If we were talking about rare visitors, the new Slavonic immigrants would have had less intimate contacts with them, less chance to hear and then adapt the names to their own language.
As for the Balts, these were still a far more substantial entity even in Dolgoruki's day. Otherwise why would the chroniclers bother recording 'raids' against them? That doesn't seem to indicate riding into a forest clearing and burning a handful of zemlyanki...
So far it's established that all pre-Slavic settlements in the Moscow region were either abandonded (Finnic ones) or ravaged (Baltic ones) by the time Slavs arrived in the region.
All archaeologically prominent ones. That's all that the evidence states. A fairly dense scattering of wooden villages with little or no metal would leave next to no trace for later researchers.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.