The making of the fyroMacedonian language.

[morski]

Although Bulgaria was the first country to recognize the independence of the Republic of Macedonia, most of its academics, as well as the general public, regard the language spoken there as a form of Bulgarian.[3] However after years of diplomatic impasse caused by an academic dispute, in 1999 the government in Sofia solved the problem with the Macedonian Language under the formula: "the official language of the country (Republic of Macedonia) in accordance with its constitution".[1]

Most Bulgarian linguists consider the Slavic dialects spoken in the region of Macedonia as a part of the Bulgarian diasystem.[2][3] Numerous shared features of these dialects with Bulgarian are cited as proof.[4] Bulgarian scholars also claim that the overwhelming majority of the Macedonian population had no conscience of a Macedonian language separate from Bulgarian prior to 1945. Russian scholars cite the early references to the language in Slavic literature from the middle of 10th century to the end of 19th century as "bulgarski" or "bolgarski" as proof of that claim.[5] From that, the conclusion is drawn that modern standard Macedonian is not a language separate from Bulgarian either but just another written "norm" based on a set of Bulgarian dialects. See dialect and dialect continuum to assess the validity of these arguments. Moreover, Bulgarian linguists assert that the Macedonian and Yugoslav linguists who were involved in codifying the new language artificially introduced differences from literary Bulgarian to bring it closer to Serbian.[6]. They are also said to have resorted to falsifications and deliberate misinterpretations of history and documents in order to further the claim that there was a consciousness of a separate Macedonian ethnicity before 1944.[7] Part of Bulgarian scholars and people hold the view that Macedonian is one of three "norms" of the Bulgarian language, the other two being standard Bulgarian and the language of the Banat Bulgarians. This formulation was detailed in 1978 in a document of the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences entitled "The Unity of the Bulgarian Language Today and in the Past".[4] Although Bulgaria was the first country to recognize the independence of the Republic of Macedonia, it has refused to recognise the existence of a separate Macedonian ethnicity and a separate Macedonian language. This was a major obstacle to the development of diplomatic relations between the two countries until a compromise solution was worked out in 1999.
Bulgarian ethnos in Macedonia existed long before the earliest articulations of the idea that Macedonian Slavs might form a separate ethnic group from the Bulgarians in Danubian Bulgaria and Thrace. Throughout the period of Ottoman rule, the Slav-speaking people of the geographic regions of Moesia, Thrace and Macedonia referred to their language as Bulgarian and called themselves Bulgarians.[5][6] For instance, the Serbian researcher St. Verković who was a long term teacher in Macedonia, sent by the Serbian government with special assimilatory mission wrote in the preface of his collection of Bulgarian folk songs: "I named these songs Bulgarian, and not Slavic because today when you ask any Macedonian Slav: Who are you? he immediately answers: I am Bulgarian and call my language Bulgarian...."[7] The name "Bulgarian" for various Macedonian dialects can be seen from early vernacular texts such as the four-language dictionary of Daniil of Moschopole, the early works of Kiril Pejchinovich and Ioakim Kurchovski and some vernacular gospels written in the Greek alphabet. These written works influenced by or completely written in the Bulgarian vernacular were registered in Macedonia in the 18th and beginning of the 19th century and their authors referred to their language as Bulgarian.[8] The first samples of Bulgarian speech and the first grammar of modern Bulgarian language were written by the leading Serbian literator Vuk Karadjić on the basis of the Macedonian Razlog dialect.[9] In those early years the re-emerging Bulgarian written language was still heavily influenced by Church Slavonic forms so dialectical differences were not very prominent between the Eastern and Western regions. Indeed, in those early years many Bulgarian activists sometimes even communicated in Greek in their writing.

When the Bulgarian national movement got under way in the second quarter of the 19th century some cities in Macedonia were among the first to demand education in Bulgarian and Bulgarian-speaking clerics for their churches.[10] By the 1860s however, it was clear that the Central Balkan regions of Bulgaria were assuming leadership in linguistic and literary affairs. This was to a large extent due to the fact that the affluent towns on both sides of the Central Balkan range were able to produce more intellectuals educated in Europe than the relatively more backward other Bulgarian regions. Consequently, when the idea that the vernacular rather than Church Slavonic should be represented in the written language gained preponderance, it was the dialects of the Central Balkan region between Veliko Tarnovo and Plovdiv that were most represented.[8].

Some prominent Bulgarian educators from Macedonia like Parteniy Zografski and Kuzman Shapkarev called for a stronger representation of Macedonian dialects in the Bulgarian literary language but their advice was not heeded at the time and sometimes met with hostility.[11] In the article The Macedonian Question by Petko Rachev Slaveykov, published on 18 January 1871 in the Makedoniya newspaper in Constantinople, Macedonism was criticized, his adherents were named Macedonists, and this is the earliest surviving indirect reference to it, although Slaveykov never used the word Macedonism.The term's first recorded use is from 1887 by Stojan Novaković to describe Macedonism as a potential ally for the Serbian strategy to expand its territory toward Macedonia, whose population was regarded by almost all neutral sources as Bulgarian at the time. The consternation of certain Macedonians with what they saw as the domineering attitude of Northern Bulgarians towards their vernacular was later deftly exploited by the Serbian state, which had begun to fear the rise of Bulgarian nationalism in Macedonia.

Up until 1912/18 it was the standard Bulgarian language that most Macedonians learned (and taught) in the Exarchate schools. All activists and leaders of the Macedonian movement, including those of the left, used standard Bulgarian in documents, press publications, correspondence and memoirs and nothing indicates they viewed it as a foreign language.[12] This is characteristic even of the members of IMRO (United) well into the 1920s and 1930s, when the idea of a distinct Macedonian nation was taking shape.[13]

From the 1930s onwards the Bulgarian Communist Party and the Comintern sought to foster a separate Macedonian nationality as a means of achieving autonomy for Macedonia within a Balkan federation. Consequently it was Bulgarian-educated Macedonians who were the first to develop a distinct Macedonian language, culture and literature.[14][15] When Socialist Macedonia was formed as part of Federal Yugoslavia, these Bulgarian-trained cadres got into a conflict over the language with the more Serbian-leaning activists, who had been working within the Yugoslav Communist Party. Since the latter held most of the political power, they managed to impose their views on the direction the new language was to follow, much to the dismay of the former group.[16]

After 1944 the communist-dominated government sought to create a Bulgarian-Yugoslav federation (see Balkan Communist Federation) and part of this entailed giving "cultural autonomy" to the Pirin region. Consequently, Bulgarian communists recognised the Macedonian language as distinct from Bulgarian.[17] After the Tito-Stalin split in 1948, those plans were abandoned. This date also coincided with the first claims of Bulgarian linguists as to the Serbianisation of the Macedonian language.[18] Officially Bulgaria continued to support the idea of a Macedonian unification and a Macedonian nation but within the framework of a Balkan Federation and not within Yugoslavia.[19] However, a reversal in the Macedonisation policy was already announced in the secret April plenum of the BCP in 1956 and openly proclaimed in the plenum of 1963. 1958 was the first time that a "serious challenge" to the Macedonian position was launched by Bulgaria.[20] These developments led to violent polemics between Yugoslav and Bulgarian scholars and sometimes reflected on the bilateral relations of the two countries.[21]
[edit] Claims of Serbianisation

Although the original aim of the codifiers of Macedonian was to distance it from both Bulgarian and Serbian[citation needed], Bulgarians today view the standard Macedonian language as heavily Serbianised, especially with regards to its vocabulary.[22] Bulgarian scholars such as Kosta Tsrnushanov claim there are several ways in which standard Macedonian was influenced by Serbian.[23]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_views_on_the_Macedonian_language#Externa l_links

[morski]

HE COLLAPSE OF YUGOSLAVIA AND THE FUTURE PROSPECTS OF THE MACEDONIAN LITERARY LANGUAGE
(A LATE CASE OF GLOSSOTOMY?)
Otto Kronsteiner (Austria)


"The split of a language into two is something which the greatest fantasts in the world have not dared do. Our scholars, however, did it for political, rather than linguistic considerations." Leonida Lari, Rumanian writer from Moldova, (Literatura si arta am 18.8.1988)

There are quite a few European languages spoken outside their "own" country: for instance German in Germany, but also in Austria, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Luxemburg,: Denmark, Belgium, Poland, Russia; Spanish in Spain, but also in Argentina, Chile, Bolivia etc. But nowhere a necessity has come to being, neither an attempt has been made to father a new (official) language (Austrian, Liechtensteinian, Argentinian, Chilien etc.) despite apparent differences emerging in the usage of the languages.

Many minority languages have never had their own state, others have had - though for a short time. Nevertheless, they have kept their integrity in the course of centuries, and have patiently waited for their recognition. This holds good of Ladinian, Basque, Sardian, Catalan and others. Quite to the contrary, there has never been a necessity for the creation of a spedal literary language to serve the Bulgarian-speaking Slavs residing outside Bulgaria (for example, in Vardar or Aegean Macedonia, Albania, Serbia, Rumania, Ukraine). Similarly, there had never been a Macedonian linguistic community dreaming for centuries on end to be recognised for its linguistic uniqueness.

As late as the XXth c. the method of linguistic partition (glossotomy) [1] would be repeatendly applied, motivated politically, rather than linguistically. In the West (as was the case of SlovenianNindian) those attempts crashed and burned. In the East however, forcefully conceived languages under communism (socialism) (Rumanian/Moldovan [2]; Finnish/Karelian; Tatar/Bashkir; Turkish/Gagaouz) did survive to live a longer "life" thanks to political coercion. Those who refused to accept language partition would be proclaimed nationalists and treated in the respective way. In politics, language partition was counted upon as a way to reinforce the new political borders, thus eliminating the feeling of one-time belonging to a certain community. [3] The strategies behind the fathering of such new languages in the communist regions would follow one and the same principles.

One scholar (or a handful united in a group) would publish an orthography, grammar, dictionary, bilingual dictionaries (but, note, never from the old to the new language, that is, never Rumanian- Moldovan, but Moldovan-Russian for example, or others). Shortly, they would publish a historical grammar, a history of the language, as well as a history of the new nation. Further, as "flank" initiatives, an Academy of Sciences, a National Theatre and a National Folk Ensemble would be established. In the meantime, a national literature was bound to shape up, and the first writer to venture in any genre, would be proclaimed a great playwright, novelist or Iyrist on the new language. [4] All that in its turn, called to life a literary history. The political accompaniment to the whole affair would be a most characteristic sentence in the communist countries: notably, that the (new) language was "a remarkable achievement serving the entire cultural complex". And, the direction to follow derived from the (unvoiced) formulation: "the worse the old language is treated, the better for the new one", that is, the worse Roumanian is being spoken/spelled, the better for Moldovan, which would be more correctly spoken/spelled. And, this entailed a deepening of the artificial gulf between the old and the new tongue (even by the use of force). All that holds good of the Macedonian literary language (македонскиот jазик).

Date of creation: 1944

Place of creation: The Socialist Republic of Macedonia (within the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia) - the "Prohor Pcinski" monastery.

Used by: some 1 000 000 Bulgarians (in Macedonia).

Oldest literary monument: "New Macedonia" newspaper.

Fabrications:


H. Lunt, A Grammar of the Macedonian Literary Language, Skopje, 1952.

Блаже Конески, Историjа на македонскиот jазик. Дел I. Увод, За гласовите, За акцентот, Скопjе, 1952; Дел Il: 3a формите и нивната употреба, Cкоnje, 1957.

Блаже Конески, Исторjа на македонскиот jазик, Скопjе - Белград, 1965, 1981, 1982.

Правопис на македонскиот литературен jазик со правописен речник, Скопjе, 1970, 1979.

Речник на македонскиот jазик со српско-хрватски толкуваниjа (II-III), Скопjе, 1961, 1966, 1979, 1986.

в. Милики , Обратен речник на македонскиот jазик, Скопje, 1967.

Двуезични речници и учебници по немски, английски, френски, полски, румънски, руски и словенски.

Научно списание "Македонски jазик" от 1954 г.

М. Георгиевски, Македонско книжевно наследство од XI до XVIII век, Скопjе, 1979.

Д. Митрев. Повоени македонски поети. Антологиjа, Скопjе, 1960.

М. Друговац, Современи македонски писатели, Скопjе, 1979.

М. Ташковски, Кон етногенезата на македонскиот народ, Скопjе, 1974.

Историjа на македонскиот народ (Институт за национална историjа, Скопjе, 1969. I. Од предисториското време до краjот на ХVIII век. II Од почетокот на ХХ век до краjот на првата светска воjна. III Периодот меу двете светски воjни и народната револуциjа (1918-1945).

While T. Stamatoski (also Stamatov, Stamatovski) wrote back in 1986 on the struggle for Macedonian literary language, looking back and ahead in future at the same time (?) (Борба за македонски литературен jазик, Скопjе), Blaze Koneski had already (3 years before) told the "Communist" (1376, from July 29, 1983) the story of the endorsement and the introduction of this literary language (Афирмациjа на македонскиот jазик. Сосем оформен современен литературен jазик, Скопjе).

A most ridiculous text is the historical phonology of the new language fathered in 1944 (B. Koneski, A Historical Phonology of the Macedonian Language, Heidelberg, 1983).

A major departure was effected, not only from the Bulgarian language, but also from its rich literary heritage, as well as from the world literature in translation. However, something had to be saved, and it was done by encroaching upon the miscellany of songs by the Miladinov brothers, born in Macedonia, and which had been originally entitled "Bulgarian Folk Songs", (1861) containing songs from Struga, Okhrida, Prilep, Kukus, Kostur and from other parts of Vardar and Aegean Macedonia. In 1962 it came out in Skopie under the forged title of "Miscellany", with a forged "Macedonian" text, and on top of everything else, labelled "the most outstanding work ever published, of the Macedonian literature.

On the name (glossonym) Macedonian
The adjective Macedonian (in Bulgarian: македонски; in Greek: , in Albanian: maqedonas) was out ot use as a glossonym prior to 1944. Until then, Macedonian used to be an adjective (designating the region (toponym) of Macedonia).[5] So-ever since 1944 it has scarcely been clear whether the toponym or the glossonym is actually meant under the word Macedonian, which caused a confusion of notions (deliberately provoked, too), that worked in favour of the reinforcement of the myths of the Macedonian nation. The impression was created as if this same language since time immemorial, has been the language of the "country" Macedonia. Alexander the Great was Macedonian. Cyril and Methodius were Macedonians, and Kemal Ataturk too, was Macedonian (a fact which is often suppressed). Neither of those however, had anything in common with the Macedonian literary language of Mr. Blaze Koneski (i.e. Blagoj Konev). And for the delusion to be complete, the textbooks in history and geography read: "In the Socialist Republic of Macedonia there live Macedonians, Albanians, Turks etc." This downright usurpation of ethnic names seems the right tool of forcible differentiation (compare: the French, Bretons, Basques - all of them nationals of France) etc., instead of the French French, the Breton French, the Basque French or (given the common territory of a nation), the French Bretons, the French Basques etc. It would be right to say: the Bulgarian Macedonians, the Albanian Macedonians, the Turkish Macedonians etc. (in this case, the residents of the republic of Macedonia), or, as it had been generally accepted to say by 1944 (e.g. Veigand) - the Macedonian Bulgarians, Macedonian Albanians, Macedonian Turks, etc. (given the common territory of a nation). And, since through the new Macedonian language, erstwhile Bulgarian ceased to exist officially (!), that is, it became a (strongly estranged) foreign language, the glossonym and the ethnonym Bulgarian disappeared too.

On the orthographyof the Macedonian literary language
Similarly to the case with Moldovan, when the Cyrillic script was introduced to distance it from Roumanian, the Macedonian glossotomists decided to adopt the Serbian alphabet (respectively, orthography) including letters having become more or less a myth , (instead of the Bulgarian Щ, ЖД, as well as the Serbian , .) . The core of the Macedonian alphabet is actually lying in these two letters and their phonetic materialisation. Hence the joke: Macedonian is Bulgarian typed on a Serbian type-writer. Had the Bulgarian orthography been applied to the new language, everyone would take it for Bulgarian (despite the peripheral nature of the basic dialect chosen), just like the dialectally tinged texts by Ludwig Toma and Peter Poseger, which are taken for German ones.

On the dialectal basis of the Macedonian literary language
A very special trick of the Macedonian glossotomists was the choice of the peripheral dialectal area as the dialectal basis of the new language. It lies precisely on the Serbian-Bulgarian language boundary, hence, it represents a transitional dialect to Serbian. Another town could have been chosen instead ot Skopie as capital (in the linguistic aspect too), such as Okhrida, but it would have made the difference with Bulgarian hardly discernable. The inner structure of the new language follows lexically and morphologically [6] the Serbian model enforced through the Belgrade Radio and TV, received everywhere. The new language served the rule: the more non-Bulgarian, the more Macedonian! The strengthening of the Serbian influence meant Macedonia's estrangement from Bulgaria politically and culturally as well [7] (something passed unnoticed by Europe). Bulgarian studies were not taught in Yugoslavia's universities, as they were replaced by Macedonian studies (and that, needless to say, held good of Skopje). Bulgarian was converted into an anti-language.

In the lingual-geographic aspect, the "Macedonian" dialects were declared all too unique, having nothing in common with Bulgarian. This explains why a Macedonian dialectal atlas was never released. Every dialectologist is well aware that there is no dialectical boundary to separate Bulgaria from Macedonia (see the maps at the end of this article), and that intrinsic Macedonian peculiarities (such as the triple article, instead of Щ, etc.) are common in Bulgaria too. Hence, the whole thing smells of Stalin-styled misinformation which was successful in misleading even some representatives of "critical" Slavonic studies in the West. [8]

Who was in need ot linguistic partition (glossotomy)?
Since in all the cases (in the communist region) of linguistic partition the underlying strategy would be quite the same, the question arises whether it is also valid for the functioning of that mechanism. The method of "spliting" would be applied not only to languages, but also to the history of nations, and to entire nations. And as in neither of those cases people's will had been consulted, it is thus far unclear where the centralstage players had actually seen the sense, for themselves, their country and their policy. It is surprising that together with the states (The Soviet Union and Yugoslavia) the purpose would be lost behind these language partitions, given it was related to a centralised state policy. The latter would unite on the one hand, and divide, on the other. Within the framework of the Soviet Union, Ukraine and Byelorussia had to be russified, whereas, the Turkish- speaking peoples would be partitioned in the smallest possible portions. For its part, Yugoslavia had been pursuing a language and cultural assimilation with a Serbian emphasis (see: "Directive" by Garasanin). All this attests to the moral (!) integrity of science which has never been short of people for such tasks. As to the Serbian policy, it did not resort to similar language partition against the Yugoslav Albanians and Turks - they were actually deprived of all their rights; they were not considered nations at all, but rather a "minority" in its worst connotation, although they were prevalent in some areas. The assimilation effort against linguistically closer Bulgarian Macedonians, however, was much more apparent. For the salce of historical truth we should note that those assimilation efforts do not date back to socialist Yugoslavia, but even earlier, to the Serbian-Croatian-Slovenian Kingdom and the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. Yet they could score success only under socialism with its methods - in the post-1944 period. No wonder then that the Albanians do not tend to associate with the new Republic of Macedonia, while as far the "macedonized" Bulgarian Macedonians are concerned, it seems at least, they. do. l do not subscribe to any annexations (Anschlusse), something I feel alien to, being Austrian; I believe that the Slav Macedonians are bound to re-think the roots of their identity which as of 1944, has been resting on a diffusse feeling of being Yugoslav. Any single piece of criticism against the new, Macedonian language is by rule interpreted as a blow against Yugoslavia. Thus, the whole thing has boiled to overcoming the past since historical falsehood and forgery could not but influence younger generations who now suffer the copse-i quences of national nihilism. The generation of today indentifies itself with neither Serbia, nor Bulgaria. We can hardly deny the emergence of initial symptoms of a new identity. Here is one example from among many: the complete separation back in 1967, of the Macedonian from the Serbian-Orthodox church (though the former has never been recognized by the latter). [9] The degree of serbization however is considerable, which is indicative of the power of the Serbo-phile nomenclature in Macedonia.

Linguistic chaos
For the constructors of a language, and of the Macedonian literary language too, it is no problem at all to invent linguistic norms. The actual difficulty is whether these norms are applicable. The ways to say something on the one hand, and to spell it on the other, have always differed, yet the question is: Whospeaks this language? Macedonians themselves can be heard to say quite often: we have no command of this language, we have not studied it. The immediate impression is how very uncertain such Macedonians feel linguistically. It transpires in every single piece of conversation, how tough it is for them to "stick" to this language. [10] Soon one is in trouble guessing whether what is spoken is bad Bulgarian, or bad Serbian. Anyway, no impression is left of a linguistic identity (unlike the case with Ladinian or Catalan). Talking with Macedonians, one is overwhelmed by compassion over their linguistic confusion. Such a language can be defined negatively: by stating what it is not. The drive to replace the nationality of the Macedonians, making them Serbian, has actually called to life a kind of a creole tongue, which for its part might be helpful to the Serbians some generations later to "recommend" to the Macedonians Serbian as a literary language. And, in its current capacity of a literary Ianguage, Macedonian is open to Serbian, with the latter supplying the former. As to Bulgarian, it has fallen in total isolation.

With the political situation of today pregnant with options for new orientation, this destructive process needs to be contained, despite the deep traces it has left in the course of its 50-year-long development. I will refrain from forecasts as to the future direction linguistic development is likely to take. However, one thing is certain: the present shuation is quite unsatisfactory. Moreover, fears remain that there are quite a few people in Skopje, who might try to accomplish what has already been started. If so, a precedent for Europe might emerge when political glossotomy being a preliminary stage leading up to linguistic, respectively ethnic, changes, has turned out to be successful.

In view of the common, older than a millenium Bulgarian history, we can hope that political objectives resting upon numerous lies, will ultimately fail. Otherwise, the televised statement of a Serbian tchetnik on the Austrian Tv' might become a sad truth, notably, that Macedonians were not using a normal tongue, but a hotchpotch of Serbian plus Bulgarian words, hence, the Macedonians belonged to Serbia.

The fact that an American, Horace Lunt is the author of the Grammar of the Macedonian Literary Language (Skopje, 1952), the first grammar-book of Macedonian (!) paving the way for a literary language tailored by the communists, attests to the profound "insight" Americans show in European problems.

Ways to tackle the "Macedonian problem":
1) Leaving behind the bilingual theory.

2) Wider access for Bulgarian so that it can be used parallel to the current form of the Macedonian literary language.

3) Optional teaching of Bulgarian in primary and secondary schools.

4) Establishment of an Institute of Bulgarian Language and Literature a1 the University of Skopje.

5) Usage of the Bulgarian alphabet (orthography) for the current form of the Macedonian literary language.

6) Lifting all restrictions over the free exchange of newspapers, magazines and literature between Macedonia and Bulgaria.

7) Linguistic integration by way of joint radio and TV broadcasts, as well as theatre shows and recitals in the two countries.

8) Creation of a joint institution on the Macedonian-Bulgarian linguistic matters. (The linguistic convergence could intensify in this way).

9) Avoidance of further serbization of the language.

10) Exchange of works of history between the two

11) The right of free choice of a surname.

12) Joint effort on behalf of Macedonia and Bulgaria for the recognition of the Slav-Bulgarian ethnic group in Aegean Macedonia (Greece) in compliance with the principles of the European minority rights (see: the linguistic map in "Die slawischen Sprachen" 15/1988).

13) Recognition of minorities based on uniform principles.

14) Observance of accurate terminology with regard to residents of Macedonia (Bulgarian Macedonians, Albanian Macedonians, Turkish Macedonians etc.) and of Bulgaria (Bulgarian Bulgarians, Turkish Bulgarians, Macedonian Bulgarians etc.) .

http://www.promacedonia.org/en/kronsteiner/ik_3_eng.html

[morski]

Macedonia from S. S. Cyril and Methodius to Horace Lunt and Blazhe Koneski:
Language and Nationality
(Prof. James F. Clarke, The Pen and the Sword: Studies in Bulgarian History, edited by Dennis P. Hupchick, Boulder: East European Monographs ; New York: Distributed by Columbia University Press, 1988.)


Among Americans increasing interest in Macedonian subjects is to be noted in academic circles. Few society meetings occur without Macedonia appearing on the program, usually in a linguistic form, but lacking historical perspective. Occasionally an article appears in a scholary journal such as one by Prof. Stephen Fisher - Galati on "IMRO" in the East European Quarterly, edited by him, but without first-hand knowledge of the subject. Perhaps more interesting is a book published in 1977 by the University of Pittsburgh Press, Reading the Ashes, An Anthology of the Poetry of Modern Macedonia. Basically a product of Skopje, the Introduction by the American editor is riddled with errors. It required 32 "translators" to translate the 26 poets. As is to be expected, it ignores, or is ignorant of, Bulgarian Macedonian history and literature, substituting instead myth and misinformation. It is my purpose here to describe how the myth of a Macedonian literary language got started.
There have been two so-called Macedonian literary languages separated by 1081 years. That of Cyril and Methodius was the first Slavic literary language, with the first Slavic alphabet - the Glagolitic, later transformed into the Cyrillic. This was adopted by all the Slavs and became a world language, the first language and alphabet in Europe with a religious basis. The other, as now practiced in Yugoslav Macedonia, is the latest, the smallest (exept for Lusatian Serbian) and we may presume, the last Slavic literary language. Cyril's Old Bulgarian, or Old Church Slavonic, was originally spoken by the Slav inhabitants of what is now Greek (or Aegean) Macedonia (Lunt, Old Church Slavonic, p. 2). New Macedonian is made up of dialects from the Centre of Yugoslav (Vardar) Macedonia.
My title would seem to put Horace Lunt in the position of isapostolos, or a latter-day Saint; "disciple" would be more appropriate. Like St. Cyril, he is a distinguished multilinguist. Since 1959 professor of Slavic at Harvard, he has worked both ends of the longMacedonian street. His first major work, written at the Biblical age 33, was a Grammar of the Macedonian Literary Language (Skopje, 1952), the first languistic description and analysis in any language. Lunt's is the only grammar listed in Koneski's Istorija na Makedonskiot Jazik (History of the Macedonian Language, Skopje 1965), aside from his own. Only three years later (1974) came his Old Church Slavonic Grammar (6th ediction, rev.), described as "the first to be written in English" and for many years a standard work (J. O. Ferrell, Language, vol. 33, p. 450 - 453). A thousand years of spoken Macedonian separate these two grammars.
By-product of Lunt's work on the Macedonian language was his "Survey of Macedonian Literature" in the first volume of Harvard Slavic Studies (1954) of which he was editor. This also was a pioneer work (and remains the only English source - other than an English translation of one of Koneski's works. Towards the Macedonian Renaissance, Skopje, 1961). He has also published a few shorter pieces. Of special interest is an article, "The creation of Standard Macedonian" (Anthropological Linguistics, May, 1959).
Lunt himself tells us how he discovered Macedonia in the Preface to Grammar of the Macedonian Literary Language, p. 1. While in the U. S. Army in 1944, he stumbled on some partizan underground publications in a Macedonian dialect. After the war he attended lectures on Macedonian in Prague, and in 1950 at Bled, given by the leading Skopje authority, Blazhe Koneski, and sponsored by the Yugoslav Council for Science and Culture. In 1951, fresh from a Columbia Ph. D. (1950), he spent three months in Skopje with financial aid from the Yugoslav Council and the Macedonian Ministry of Education, Science, and Culture. There he had the guidance and assistance of Prof. Koneski and associates at the University of Skopje. Thus, Koneski's Slavic Seminar acted as judge and jury in determining what was to be standard. Lunt's Grammar of the Macedonian Literary Language was printed in Belgrade and published by the Macedonian State Press in Skopje in August 1952. It might, therefore, be considered official.

INSTANT STANDARD LITERARY MACEDONIAN
On August 2, 1944, one of the first acts of the 122 delegates from Macedonia to the Anti-Fascist National Liberation Council, meeting clandestinely at the St. Prohor Pchinski Monastery in Serbia, was the following decree:
1. In the Macedonian state as official language is adopted the People's Macedonian language.
2. This decision enters into force immediately.
(Dokumenti od sozdavanjeto i razvitokot na N. R. Makedonija, Documents on the Creation and Development of the P. R. of Macedonia, Skopje, 1949, p. 22)
This must be the quickest creation of a literary language in history. A Commission, including Blazhe Koneski, was appointed in December to spell out the new literary language. It came up with a new alphabet and orthography on May 3 and June 7, 1945.
After two centuries of Slavic scholarship, very little is known about the origins and nature of Old Bulgaria in Macedonia. Many questions remain and some probably always will. Although the locale of the language seems established, the ethnic origin of the sainted brothers is still disputed. It is hard for Slavs to accept them as anything but Slavs. Prof. Lunt calls them "Greeks" (Slavic Review, June, 1964, p. 216), but also refers to Macedonian as "St. Cyril's native Salonika dialect" (Lunt, Old Church Slavonic, p. 3). Many questions would be answered should we discover that their mother, or at least their wet-nurse, was a "native" (I'm told by Konstantin Mechev, a Cyrillo-Methodian scholar of Sofia, that after 5 month's research in Moscow, he has conclusive evidence that they were Slavs; e. g. Bulgarians). Even the traditional date for the language, 863, is disputed, especially by Russian and Bulgarian scholars, not all of whom are Marxists. Aside from such assertions that there must have been a couple of centuries of prior literary development (P. Dinekov, Deloto, 1100 godini, p. 5) we find such statements as "the brothers finished their epoch-making work in 855" (N. Todorov, et al, Bulgaria, Historical and Geographic Outline, Sofia, 1965, p. 28).
Considering the times and circumstances, it is inevitable that the great achievement of the two "Apostles to the Slavs" should still be shrouded in myths and legends. On the other hand, the second contemporary Macedonian literary language was created in the full light of our day. Yet this too is obscured by a growing Macedonian Myth. To it Horace Lunt has contributed his share and set the pace for subsequent American linguistics.
I am not here to quarrel with the current Macedonian literary language. No less an authority than Roman Jakobson years ago declared it the thirteenth Slavic literary language. Every man has the right to invent and write in his own language. Nor is the upgrading of a dialect into a literary language a heresy, though only in a totalitarian police state can this become standard overnight by decree.
To the 19th century the literary language used by Bulgarians in Macedonia was some form of Serb or Bulgarian variation of the Russianized Church Slavic with degrees of spoken admixtures, as in the so-called Damaskini. In the first part of the 19th century Greek (or Slavic with Greek letters) was also used but increasingly the literary language was the same as that used elsewhere in Bulgaria with occasional use of Macedonian dialects. Between the two wars in Yugoslavia, it was Serbian by compulsion, with Bulgarian proscribed. Now it is the new Macedonian, with Bulgarian proscribed, and with Serbo-Croatian as a second official language.
According to Prof. Lunt, Macedonian "came of age" with the 1951 publication of Koneski and Toshev's little Macedonian Orthography. He rather prematurely declared at the time he compiled his Grammar that Macedonian "had achieved a degree of homogenity comparable to that of the other Balkan languages" - this in the space of six precotions years (Grammar, p. 6). The chief architect of the language has been Prof. Koneski, President of the Macedonian Academy of Arts and Sciences, whom Lunt considers one of the best Macedonian authors. The first part of the Grammar came on the heels of Lunt's; the second, in 1954. His Dictionary, in three volumes, was published in 1961, 1965, and 1966, with definitions in Serbian. The last two volumes were delayed by the great Skopje earthquake. A major work is his History of the Macedonian Language (1965).
I too am prepared to stipulate that a kind of Macedonian literary language is in use in Skopje, although its growing pains are still showing. But to claim as Koneski does (The Macedonian Language in the Development of the Slavic Literary Language, 1968), that Macedonian is comparable to the other Slavic languages is nonsense. What interests me here are the ideological and the political rationalizations and the problems and myths thus created.

TITO'S MACEDONIA
Literary Macedonian owes its existence largely to Tito and the inclusion of Macedonia in his six-room federal house. The new federal idea was laid in 1942 and publicly hatched at Jajce in 1943. The new "co-equal" Macedonian republic was launched in 1944 at the St. Prohor Pchinski Monastery. The motives behind its existence help explain much of its subsequent character: Macedonian's relations with Belgrade had been a running, bloody sore in the interbellum period; to head off Stalin opting for the Bulgarian Communist Party's claims, Macedonia and the partizan movement there had to be forcibly tied to the new Yugoslavia; and there was the possibility of using Vardar Macedonia as a magnet or springboard for the acquisition of Greek and Bulgarian Macedonia and a restoration of partitioned Macedonia.
The elevation of Macedonia into the ranks of the historically and ethnically based Yugoslav federal republics had to be rationalized; ideologically, politically, historically, and culturally. A separate Macedonia had to have a separate and different official literary language - different both from Bulgarian and Serbian. The obvious necessity to use an existing spoken language meant deciding which of the many dialects to use. The Western Macedonian was chosen, which in Vardar Macedonia - meant the central dialect group, was removed as much as possible from both Bulgarian and Serbian contamination.*
At the same time, a separate Macedonian alphabet was devised, made unnecessarily different from the Bulgarian, including a few peculiarly Serbian letters, and containing some letters not found in any other Cyrillic alphabet** , but it is still closer to Bulgarian than anything else.
In other ways, the makers of Modem Macedonian have tried to be different. A folk-based language of a relatively primitive people finds it both necessary and difficult suddenly to adapt to mid twentieth century conditions. In addition to finding or coining local folk substitutes for Bulgarian literary expressions, the Macedonian language legislators avoid taking ready-to-hand Bulgarian (or Russian or Serbian) technical and other ultra-modern expressions in favor of Western, including American, terms. The purpose is to make Macedonian as different as possible. The result is barbarous jargon, literally a Macedonian Salad.
In contrast to the arbitrary severing of the Bulgarian literary umbilical cord, there is daily contact with Serbian via the school, press, radio, business, politics, and the army. For Macedonians, Serbian has to be a second, official language.

A STATE IN SEARCH OF ITS HISTORY: THE MACEDONIAN MYTH
Professor Lunt reminds us that a "language can be described and learned without the slightest knowledge of history" unfortunately true of some of American linguists, but also that the "elements of history are always present" (Old Church Slavonic Grammar, 2nd ed. 1959, p. x.). The new Macedonian state and language in particular required historical rationalization to justify their separatism. But the discouraging fact was that there was virtually no Macedonian "state" history, as such. Consequently the Skopje scholars have found it necessary to rewrite Balkan history at least as far back as Cyril and Methodius to make room for Macedonia. As Lunt says, "except for a brief period under Samuil at the end of the ninth (sic) century, Macedonia never had its own government" (Grammar, p. 3). Because the history of Macedonia has hitherto inevitably been written mostly in terms of Bulgaria, Macedonian historians are finding it necessary to deprive Bulgarians of some of their history, for example, St. Clement, chief disciple of Cyril and Methodius, whose anniversary on Ohrid in 1966 (with Professor Lunt as honored guest) was celebrated as a Macedonian affair. Another example is the Bogomils, whom the Macedonians have adopted as their very own national movement. On some of these points Macedonians have trouble convincing even their fellow Yugoslavs. But it is not my purpose here to retread Macedonian historiography and its catharsis of Bulgarian elements.

CONCLUSION
For Macedonians to deny their Bulgarian heritage is like Peter denying Christ. But Peter repented! You are familiar, I am sure, with all the distortions and denials of Bulgarian history, literature, and culture, as related to Macedonia eminating from Skopje. But we here too have scholars seemingly ignorant of Bulgarian Macedonian history. Take Prof. Golab of Chicago who cites a work by Russian scholar Selishchev on Polog and Its Bulgarian Inhabitants as Polog and Its Slav Inhabitants. It was at Chicago that Koneski got an honorary doctorate as "father of the Macedonian Language". Actually Tito was the "father" and Koneski the "mother" with Horace Lunt as "mid-wife". The kind of historical gymnastics and dialectical Macedonianism indulged in at Skopje puts the ideological cart before the historical horse: suddenly we had ultra-Macedonian Nationalism, a gift from Marx; then came the establishment of a "state", then the official language, then back-up "history" and finally what? A Macedonian Consciousness?
I see no quick or easy solution for today's version of the age-old Macedonian Questions, invented at the Congress of Berlin (1878). My conviction, however, is that historical truth will prevail and our task is to see that these truths must not be forgotten. This is the least we should do.
Prof. James F. Clarke



APPENDIX
Repercussion of the Macedonian emigration in USA about creation of the so-called Macedonian language (Macedonian Tribune, Volume 43, Number 2177, Indianapolis, March 27, 1969).

BULGARIAN... BULGARIAN DICTIONARY
The wild assimilatory campaign in the enslaved Macedonian land near Vardar often seems pitiful and funny. The Skopian janissaries not only are embroiled to death with the elementary historic truths but also they're trying to do the same with the truth about the alphabet. For them it is a rule to call black white, they are used to maintain, that the sun does not rise from the east, but from the west, that the satellite of the Earth is not the Moon, but ... Yugoslavia.
In this preculiar way, the decision was made in Skopje to issue Bulgarian - Macedonian dictionary. It is necessary for them to prove to their own people and, if it is possible, to some foreigners, that the population near Vardar has no relationship to the Bulgarian nation and Bulgaria. The above mentioned dictionary is already a fact and let's say at the beginning - one more fact of the failure of Tito's assimilatory mission.Its' authors M. Miadenov, D. Tsarvenkovski and B. Blagoevski are Bulgarians by origin - in all their documents till 1945 they have ascertained themselves their Bulgarian origin, they have graduated Bulgarian schools. They speak Bulgarian and Serbian fluently. In the last 20 years they are trying to distort their conscience and play the role of creators of literary "Macedonian" language. We must confess that they are very determined in the creation of the dictionary, to alienate their language from the Bulgarian and to make it look like Serbian. Fortunately they have not succeeded.
On the first page for the explanations of the abbreviations we see:

abrev.
Macedonian

Bulgarian

transl.
writen

pronun.

writen

pronun.
ав. авиациja aviatsiya авиация aviatsiya aviation
адми. администрациja administratsiya администрация administratsiya administration
анат. анатомиja anatomiya анатомия anatomiya anatomy
археол. археологиja arheologiya археология arheologiya archaeology
архит. архитектура arhitektura архитектура arhitektura architecture
Afterwards is published the "Macedonian" alphabet and we notice with admiration and anger at the same time because of the impudence that this is the holy Bulgarian alphabet (Cyrillic). There are only two changes - the Bulgarian Щ (sht) is written as ШТ (sht) and second - they have suppressed the Bulgarian Ъ*** The first change is hardly noticeable but the second leads to jokes. For example:

Bulgarian

Macedonian

translation
writen

pronun.

writen

pronun.
щръклица shtraklitsa штръклица shtraklitsa species of fly
върба varba врба varba willow
изтръпвам iztrapvam изтрпвам iztrapvam numb

Sometimes the Bulgarian Ъ and **** are changed with the Bulgarian A. For example:

Bulgarian

Macedonian

translation
writen

pronun.

writen

pronun.
път pat пат pat way
зъзна zazna зазна zazna have a cold

Here start the words. As in all dictionaries the beggining is for the words starting with A. Let's have a look at the first page:

Bulgarian

Macedonian

translation
writen

pronun.

writen

pronun.
абаджия abadziya абаџиja abadziya weaver
абдикация abdikatsiya абдикациja abdikatsiya abdication
абстрактен abstrakten апстрактен apstrakten abstract
абстрахирам abstrahiram апстрахирам abstrahiram to abstract
абсурд absurd апсурд aзsurd nonsense
август avgust август avgust August
автор avtor автор avtor autor
aкo ako ako аkо if
адрес adres адрес adres address
астма astma астма astma asthma
атака ataka атака ataka assault
афион afion афион afion poppy
ax ah ax ah oh

Let's go to the words of the second Bulgarian letter Б:

Bulgarian

Macedonian

translation
writen

pronun.

writen

pronun.
баба baba баба baba gammer
бавене bavene бавене bavene slow-coach
бавно bavno бавно bavno slow
багаж bagazh багаж bagazh baggage
багра bagra багра bagra bloom
баджанак badzhanak бацанак badzhanak brother in law
байряк bayryak баjpak bayryak banner
балама balama балама balama stupid
белег beleg белег beleg blaze

Or with the letter E:

Bulgarian

Macedonian

translation
writen

pronun.

writen

pronun.
евнух evnuh евнух evnuh eunuch
еволюирам evolyuiram еволуирам evoluiram evolve
евреин evrein евреин evrein jew
европеец evropeets европеец evropeets european
евтиния evtiniya евтиниja evtiniya cheapness
егейски egeyski егеjски egeyski Aegean
егоист egoist егоист egoist egoist
еделвайс edelvays еделваjс edelvays edelweiss
единайсет edinayset единаесет edinaeset eleven
ерес eres ерес eres heresy
езеро ezero езеро ezero lake

...
This can be seen in the whole dictionary. Only when the existence of Serbian words in the "Macedonian" language must be justified, then they resort to translation. Or when they get to the archaisms from the Bulgarian language that have remained in the "Macedonian". For example:

не ме е еня, B. - не ми е гаjле, M.
бръснарница, B. - берберница, M.
обущарница, B. - кондурџиjница, M.

The Bulgarian word мелничар (melnichar) is "translated" in "Macedonian" as воденичар (vodenichar) and the Bulgarian воденичар (vodenichar) is "translated" as мелничар (melnichar). But both words are Bulgarian and mean a miller.This dictionary can be well called Bulgarian - Bulgarian and then one can't justify its creation. The Skopian linguists tried to justify this booklet by writing series of notices in different newspapers. They wrote: "This dictionary will be helpful mainly to Bulgarian guests that visit our restaurants, hotels, cinemas, and other public places, in their conversations with Macedonian citizens". But the Bulgarians that visit the unfortunate Vardar area felt proud that their brothers and sisters speak just like them. So they have no need of this dictionary. This was proved by its creators who "translated" over 5 thousand Bulgarian words into ... pure Bulgarian language.




http://www.promacedonia.org/en/other/clarke.html

[Europa]

Woo you are going to get in dip shit for this thread:D:thumb001:

[lepa]

Yeah, yeah, and what you will achieve with this?

[poiuytrewq0987]

... or maybe it's the other way around? The Former Yugoslav Republic of Serbia and the Former Soviet Republic of Bulgaria speak a dialect of Macedonian? :rolleyes:

[morski]

... or maybe it's the other way around? The Former Yugoslav Republic of Serbia and the Former Soviet Republic of Bulgaria speak a dialect of Macedonian? :rolleyes:

http://www.demotivationalposters.org/image/demotivational-poster/small/0808/jesus-facepalm-facepalm-jesus-epic-demotivational-poster-1218659828.jpg

[morski]

IV. Пътища на cърбизиране на македонския казионен “език”

Посърбяването на езика на македонските българи бе задача номер едно на Новакович при организирания от него поход на сръбската пропаганда в Македония, защото езикът е душата на един народ. Когато тая душа бъде поразена, победата ще бъде пълна.

И ето на какво сме свидетели днес в СР Македония; посърбяването на езика там носи следните форми:

1. В областта на азбуката и фонетиката (звуковете).

2. В областта на морфологията и лексиката:

а) Вмъкване в речника на безброй сръбски думи.
б) Създаване на сърбизми („помакедончени” сръбски думи) чрез прибавяне на българско окончание или с промяна на основни гласни.
в) Избягване на български окончания, характерни за книжовния български език (останали от старобългарски), и приемане на сръбски окончания.
г) Употреба на чужди, предимно на френски думи в сръбски облик.
д) Сръбски форми на познати названия от чужд или домашен произход.
е) Сръбски научни и технически термини.
ж) Пренебрегване на съществуващи народни думи и приемане на съответни сръбски думи и изрази.

3. В областта на синтаксиса (строежа на изречението):

а) Сръбски строеж на изречението чрез съответни съюзи.
б) Сръбски строеж на изречението чрез употреба на съответни предлози и др.


Няма съмнение, че с всичко това македонският казионен „език” става все по-чужд за народа. Той трябва да бъде изучаван от самите македонски българи със същите усилия, с които се изучава един чужд славянски език. Върху това красноречиво говори и следният анекдот. В Гевгели имало родителско-учителска среща. Учителят е говорил върху възпитанието на децата, докладвал за мерките на училището и подчертал дълга на родителите във връзка с това. Обаче неговият македонистки. т.е. сърбомакедонски „език” не е бил разбран и родителите стоели


81

в недоумение какво им е говорено. Тогава учителят казал: „Я да ви го кажа на гевгелийски, та да се разбереме по човечки”.

http://www.promacedonia.org/statii/mp_1991_1_tsyrnushanov.html#4_2

[poiuytrewq0987]

http://www.demotivationalposters.org/image/demotivational-poster/small/0808/jesus-facepalm-facepalm-jesus-epic-demotivational-poster-1218659828.jpg

Macedonian ethnicity evolved from a regional identity that was often considered either Serbian or Bulgarian. It's like Luxembourg or Switzerland where they don't feel German but Luxemburger and Swiss.

Our regional identity has always been there but obviously with some Bulgarian/Serbian overtones because of the dominating roles both countries had in the Balkans.

The only mistake we made was the adoption of antiquity. But in reality, we were driven to claim antiquity because of extremist Greek and Bulgarian attitudes. The Bulgarian claim of Macedonians being simply Bulgarian and the Greek obstruction during the 90s drove us to a claim a history that wasn't exclusively ours and too far back in history to feel any connection with.

[morski]

Maps of the Bulgarian dialect-continuum:

http://static.dialektite.com/images/maps/yus.png

http://www.bulgari-istoria-2010.com/booksBG/BET_2.PNG

http://static.dialektite.com/images/maps/yat.png

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTIFWGm2Pwdo9SKKkypbm89IJki_5BzG 9yeWvzcjWmdgkRtiqXvaU81ZCnpyg

[morski]

Macedonian ethnicity evolved from a regional identity that was often considered either Serbian or Bulgarian. It's like Luxembourg or Switzerland where they don't feel German but Luxemburger and Swiss.

Our regional identity has always been there but obviously with some Bulgarian/Serbian overtones because of the dominating roles both countries had in the Balkans.

The only mistake we made was the adoption of antiquity. But in reality, we were driven to claim antiquity because of extremist Greek and Bulgarian attitudes. The Bulgarian claim of Macedonians being simply Bulgarian and the Greek obstruction during the 90s drove us to a claim a history that wasn't exclusively ours and too far back in history to feel any connection with.

Stop repeating the same old bullshit. Read history from reliable sources. It did not evolve. It was forced upon the people by the Comintern and Tito.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Stop repeating the same old bullshit. Read history from reliable sources. It did not evolve. It was forced upon the people by the Comintern and Tito.

Whatever floats your boat.

[morski]

Оче наш, кој си на небесата,
да се свети името Твое,
да дојде царството Твое,
да биде волјата Твоја,
како на небото, така и на земјата;
лебот наш насушен дај ни го денес
и прости ни ги долговите наши
како и ние што им ги проштеваме на нашите должници;
и не нè воведувај во искушение,
но избави нè од лукавиот.
Амин!

Отче наш, Който си на небесата!
Да се свети Твоето име,
да дойде Твоето Царство,
да бъде Твоята воля,
както на небето, тъй и на земята;
насъщния ни хляб дай ни днес,
и прости нам дълговете ни,
както и ние прощаваме на нашите длъжници,
и не въведи нас в изкушение,
но избави ни от лукавия;
защото Твое е царството,
и силата, и славата вовеки.
Амин.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Is Croatian a dialect of Serbian according to your logic? :icon_wink:

[morski]

Serbian and Croatian are part of a single dialect continuum in the same way in which fyroMacedonian and Bulgarian form a dialect continuum. But those are different cases with different history and thus not comparable.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Serbian and Croatian are part of a single dialect continuum in the same way in which Macedonian and Bulgarian form a dialect continuum. But those are different cases with different history and thus not comparable.

It doesn't really matter that our languages are similar to a point. The Serbs and Croats speak a similar langauge but they are still a distinctive ethnicity just like we are. More comparisons could be drawn from the Swiss, Austrians, Dutch, and so on...

[Guapo]

a Serb fucked a Greek chick and out cam teh Fyromians(and bulgars)

[Europa]

a Serb fucked a Greek chick and out cam teh Fyromians(and bulgars)
This is the biggest load of bull shit I've ever heard about.And it's spelled Bulgarian/s not Bulgars......Cloun

[morski]

The fyroMacedonian language is a politcal fact today. It is however doubtful that it is stabilized enough, since it is a very recent phenomenon- it exists since 1944. The vernacular spoken in and around Skopie for example can more accurately be described as a heavily creolized Serbo-Bulgarian. And what they speak in Southern and especially Eastern Macedonia is closer to Bulgarian standard. There is virtually no clear border between the dialects spoken in Bulgaria and fyroMacedonia.

Bulgarian itself is a pluricentric language and the norm in fyroMacedonia can be described as another standardization of the same language. Along with Banat Bulgarian which uses the latin alphabet there are in all 3 standardized varieties of Bulgarian. A situation somewhat similar to the case of Dutch, Flemish and Afrikaans.

Dusan, mate, I do not think you have the right to participate in any debate concerning the matter wheather fyroMacedonian and Bulgarian are one or two different languages since you do not have command of either.

[пустиняк]

a Serb fucked a Greek chick and out cam teh Fyromians(and bulgars)

Thread closed.

Guapo you're legend mate

[Guapo]

This is the biggest load of bull shit I've ever heard about.And it's spelled Bulgarian/s not Bulgars......Cloun

It's spelled Clown, not Cloun...blgr :laugh:

[poiuytrewq0987]

The fyroMacedonian language is a politcal fact today. It is however doubtful that it is stabilized enough, since it is a very recent phenomenon- it exists since 1944. The vernacular spoken in and around Skopie for example can more accurately be described as a heavily creolized Serbo-Bulgarian. And what they speak in Southern and especially Eastern Macedonia is closer to Bulgarian standard. There is virtually no clear border between the dialects spoken in Bulgaria and fyroMacedonia.

Bulgarian itself is a pluricentric language and the norm in fyroMacedonia can be described as another standardization of the same language. Along with Banat Bulgarian which uses the latin alphabet there are in all 3 standardized varieties of Bulgarian. A situation somewhat similar to the case of Dutch, Flemish and Afrikaans.

Dusan, mate, I do not think you have the right to participate in any debate concerning the matter wheather fyroMacedonian and Bulgarian are one or two different languages since you do not have command of either.

:pound: There was NO creation of Macedonian language, simply a dialect of Macedonian was chosen to be the basis for Standard Macedonian. And because this occurred later than other languages doesn't make the language artificial nor "created".


Dusan, mate, I do not think you have the right to participate in any debate concerning the matter wheather fyroMacedonian and Bulgarian are one or two different languages since you do not have command of either.

:rotfl: Says the Bulgarian. Leave it to real Macedonians to define the language. :thumb001:

[morski]

:pound: There was NO creation of Macedonian language, simply a dialect of Macedonian was chosen to be the basis for Standard Macedonian. And because this occurred later than other languages doesn't make the language artificial nor "created".


:rotfl: Says the Bulgarian. Leave it to real Macedonians to define the language. :thumb001:

There is no such thing dialect of Macedonian.
Most Bulgarian linguists consider the Slavic dialects spoken in the region of Macedonia as a part of the Bulgarian diasystem.[2][3] Numerous shared features of these dialects with Bulgarian are cited as proof.[4] Bulgarian scholars also claim that the overwhelming majority of the Macedonian population had no conscience of a Macedonian language separate from Bulgarian prior to 1945. Russian scholars cite the early references to the language in Slavic literature from the middle of 10th century to the end of 19th century as "bulgarski" or "bolgarski" as proof of that claim.[5] From that, the conclusion is drawn that modern standard Macedonian is not a language separate from Bulgarian either but just another written "norm" based on a set of Bulgarian dialects. See dialect and dialect continuum to assess the validity of these arguments. Moreover, Bulgarian linguists assert that the Macedonian and Yugoslav linguists who were involved in codifying the new language artificially introduced differences from literary Bulgarian to bring it closer to Serbian.[6]. They are also said to have resorted to falsifications and deliberate misinterpretations of history and documents in order to further the claim that there was a consciousness of a separate Macedonian ethnicity before 1944.[7] Part of Bulgarian scholars and people hold the view that Macedonian is one of three "norms" of the Bulgarian language, the other two being standard Bulgarian and the language of the Banat Bulgarians.


Up until 1912/18 it was the standard Bulgarian language that most Macedonians learned (and taught) in the Exarchate schools. All activists and leaders of the Macedonian movement, including those of the left, used standard Bulgarian in documents, press publications, correspondence and memoirs and nothing indicates they viewed it as a foreign language.[12] This is characteristic even of the members of IMRO (United) well into the 1920s and 1930s, when the idea of a distinct Macedonian nation was taking shape.


there has never been a necessity for the creation of a special literary language to serve the Bulgarian-speaking Slavs residing outside Bulgaria (for example, in Vardar or Aegean Macedonia, Albania, Serbia, Rumania, Ukraine). Similarly, there had never been a Macedonian linguistic community dreaming for centuries on end to be recognised for its linguistic uniqueness.


A very special trick of the Macedonian glossotomists was the choice of the peripheral dialectal area as the dialectal basis of the new language. It lies precisely on the Serbian-Bulgarian language boundary, hence, it represents a transitional dialect to Serbian. Another town could have been chosen instead ot Skopie as capital (in the linguistic aspect too), such as Okhrida, but it would have made the difference with Bulgarian hardly discernable. The inner structure of the new language follows lexically and morphologically [6] the Serbian model enforced through the Belgrade Radio and TV, received everywhere. The new language served the rule: the more non-Bulgarian, the more Macedonian! The strengthening of the Serbian influence meant Macedonia's estrangement from Bulgaria politically and culturally as well [7] (something passed unnoticed by Europe). Bulgarian studies were not taught in Yugoslavia's universities, as they were replaced by Macedonian studies (and that, needless to say, held good of Skopje). Bulgarian was converted into an anti-language.

In the lingual-geographic aspect, the "Macedonian" dialects were declared all too unique, having nothing in common with Bulgarian. This explains why a Macedonian dialectal atlas was never released. Every dialectologist is well aware that there is no dialectical boundary to separate Bulgaria from Macedonia (see the maps at the end of this article), and that intrinsic Macedonian peculiarities (such as the triple article, instead of Щ, etc.) are common in Bulgaria too. Hence, the whole thing smells of Stalin-styled misinformation which was successful in misleading even some representatives of "critical" Slavonic studies in the West. [8]

http://www.bulgari-istoria-2010.com/booksBG/BET_2.PNG


Dusan, you lack sufficient knowledge to argue with me on this matter. Unlike you I am fluent in Bulgarian. I can easily understand standard fyroMacedonian since it is mutually intelligible with Bulgarian. I have also visited the republic for two weeks several years ago. I have also known numerous people in Sofia from fyroMacedonia over the years.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Dusan, you lack sufficient knowledge to argue with me on this matter. Unlike you I am fluent in Bulgarian. I can easily understand standard fyroMacedonian since it is mutually intelligible with Bulgarian. I have also visited the republic for two weeks several years ago. I have also known numerous people in Sofia from fyroMacedonia over the years.

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/007/508/watch-out-we-got-a-badass-over-here-meme.png

[poiuytrewq0987]

I have enough knowledge of both languages to know Macedonian is a separate language just like Slovak is not a dialect of Czech. If you want to believe Macedonian is not a real language but a dialect of Bulgarian then more power to you... but that won't make Macedonians turn Bulgarian. :thumb001:

Going to be my last post in your deranged threads to turn us to "Bulgarianhood" :coffee:

[morski]

i have enough knowledge of both languages to know macedonian is a separate language just like slovak is not a dialect of czech. If you want to believe macedonian is not a real language but a dialect of bulgarian then more power to you... But that won't make macedonians turn bulgarian. :thumb001:

Going to be my last post in your deranged threads to turn us to "bulgarianhood" :coffee:

Дълбоко се съмнявам в истинността на това ти твърдение.

[Europa]

It's spelled Clown, not Cloun...blgr :laugh:

Do you want to play this game?You got it, sugar tits.Your spellings are simply showing a lack knowledge in English.There is big difference between the ignorance such as yours and a grammatical error caused by using a phone.Therefore I'd suggest you to go back to milk sheeps.Peasent

[TojSum]

There is no such thing dialect of Macedonian.



Dusan, you lack sufficient knowledge to argue with me on this matter. Unlike you I am fluent in Bulgarian. .

Let clarify some things. In witch bulgarian you are fluent? This one???

http://turkic-languages.scienceontheweb.net/

Bulgaric

According to the present study, the Bulgaric languages apparently branched off from the Turkic languages at a rather early period of time—c. 1100-500 BC (much earlier than normally cited), though the exact date cannot be calculated with precision due to possible lexicostatistical fluctuations. For all practical purposes, one should remember that the difference between Bulgaric and Turkic is considerable, and they should rather be viewed separately from each other. As we mentioned above, they may also be regarded as a Bulgaro-Turkic (super)group, but not just mixed up. Herein, we consistently use the term "Turkic (Proper)" to refer only to the languages outside Bulgaric.

Or this one??

http://pic.mk/images/fieldsofwh.jpg

Anastasia Karakasidou is Associate Professor of Anthropology at Wellesley College.
Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood page 83.

[TojSum]

Macedonian Lexicon - 16th Century

Un Lexique Macedonien du XVie siecle. Institut d'Etudes Slaves del'Universite de Paris. Giannelli, Ciro and Andre Vaillant. 1958.


http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/un-lexique-macedonien-du-xvi-siecle-p00.png

Macedonia during the Middle Ages

By the end of the 14th century, Macedonia had already been under Ottoman rule for a few decades, losing its status as a vassal state under the leadership of King Marko in 1395. As the greater region was finally deprived of any sense of liberty after the death of George Kastriot - Skenderbeg in 1444, forms of local state structure in Macedonia ceased to exist. This left the responsibility of retaining the culture, language and identity of the people with the religious institutions that were active in Macedonia at that time. The traditional influence of the Patriarchate at Constantinople that was prevalent during the Roman period had resurfaced again in the Ottoman Empire, as the latter looked to use the former to consolidate a single Roman Millet of Orthodox Christians within their domains. However, institutions such as the Archbishopric of Ohrid and even more significantly the hundreds of churches in Macedonia, played a pivotal role in ensuring the local culture, language and identity of the people would survive throughout the centuries of hardships.

Despite the absence of written works relating to statehood, material of a religious and educational character continued to flourish, and Church Slavonic, an essentially Macedonian tongue that was initially developed for such purposes in the 9th century, remained the literary language of the Macedonian people. However, the vernacular tongue of the Macedonians had co-existed with Church Slavonic and matured over the years, demonstrating a remarkable resilience and stability, which earned its introduced as the language of church services in Macedonia. The Macedonians were faced with foreign interference in both their lands and institutions, but their language had been largely solidified, evidenced in the fact that spoken Macedonian from the 16th century has a far greater affinity to spoken Macedonian dialects of today than it does to Church Slavonic. For well over half of a millenium, the Macedonian language has basically remained the same.

Vocabulary and Linguistic Characteristics

The texts reveal distinctive local features that have tenaciously survived the ages, and are still present in a number of today’s spoken Macedonian dialects. This fact reveals the remarkable consistency of the Macedonian language despite the lack of state support or schooling until the 20th century. Below is a sample of words from the texts, along with linguistic characteristics peculiar to the language of the Macedonians.

Animal/Food/Anatomy Terms - Mrave (Ants); Curvec (Worm), Sokol (Falcon), Vrapci (Birds), Golobi (Pigeons), Kokoshki (Chickens), Petel (Rooster), Ofci (Sheep), Kozi (Goats), Jagne (Lamb), Mechika (Bear), Elen (Deer), Lisica (Fox), Kon (Horse), Krusha (Pear), Meso (Meat), Sireni (Cheese), Jajca (Eggs), Vino (Wine), Sol (Salt), Zhito (Grain), Koska (Bone), Gas (Buttocks), Kuro (Penis), Made (Testicles).

Unique and Loan Words - The word Galuhci (Mice) is used, which can also be said as Gluhci or Glufci, and Macedonians are the only people who use this word. The word Veligden (Easter) is used, pronounced with the ‘g’ in Macedonian only. Turkish loans are very rare, one example being Jorgano (Blanket).

Dialectal and Jat Features - The Kostur region contains dialects that have retain several archaic characteristics, such as the word Ranka (Hand) rather than the more common Macedonian variant of Raka. An interesting trend is found in the use of multiple transitions of the Jat feature that is present in various Macedonian and Slavonic dialects. For example, the text employs the word Dedo (Grandfather) and not Djado, yet Hljap (Bread) and not Lep or Leb.

Definite Articles - The typical Macedonian postfixed definite article is exhibited in words such as Krushata (The Pear) and Dushata (The Soul). It is also noted in the word Patot (The Path) for ‘the path’, although as the case of Jorgano (The Blanket) demonstrates, the ‘t’ at the end can also be dropped, as in several of today’s Macedonian dialects.

Words and Phrases, Unchanged for Centuries.

Containing a rich glossary and in excess of 300 words and phrases, the texts demonstrate the strength of the Macedonian language through preservation. Following is a comparison of sentences between the texts and the Macedonian dialect of Bitola as spoken today.

16th cent., Kostur dialect
21st cent., Bitola dialect

Gospodine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostavi ni da spime, ela da jame, i da pieme, dol da pojdime, da rabotime.
Gospodine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostai ne da spiame, ela da jaime, i da piame, dolu da pojdime, da rabotime.

Imate hljap-o da kupime, imate vino da kupime, ot koja strana da pojdime vo Bogasko.
Imate lep da kupime, imate vino da kupime, od koja strana da pojdime vo Bogatsko.

As can be clearly noticed, most of the vocabulary and grammar is identical.

All of the elements that would later be required to rejuvinate the Macedonian people as they were shaking off centuries of subjugation, were present during this period. The language of the people had solidified, a tradition of heraldry and symbolism had developed which incorporated the emblem of a rapant lion and historical figures from Macedonia’s past, and the churches continued preserve the local customs and serve as cultural centres for the population. The significance of all these elements together cannot be overstated, the language of medieval Macedonia is the same as the language of the Macedonians today. Unfortunately, only a small portion of the larger amount of Macedonian literature from the Middle Ages has survived, much of it being looted and destroyed by Greek-speaking officials, clerics and teachers. Nevertheless, Macedonian as a language reached its current form centuries before the creation of the Balkan states in the 19th and 20th centuries.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/un-lexique-macedonien-du-xvi-siecle-p23.png

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/un-lexique-macedonien-du-xvi-siecle-p24.png

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/un-lexique-macedonien-du-xvi-siecle-p25.png

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/un-lexique-macedonien-du-xvi-siecle-p26.png

There is more but enough for you.

[morski]

Let clarify some things. In witch bulgarian you are fluent?

Analytical Balkano-Slavic aka Bulgarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language)

pbxOa31XzFM
Albania

Oz-9jjXi4AY
Bulgaria

PiMbOBaBpS8
fyroMacedonia

p_S1I1O-G80
Serbia

dAFyhl2VpqQ
Greece

xU3v14C5RS0
Banat, Romania

66hDNeLehmo
Besarabia, Moldova and Ukraine

Of course I am fluent only in standard Bulgarian as spoken in the rep. of Bulgaria. But I do understand the norm in fyroMacedonia and the codified vernacular of the Banat Bulgarians as well. As I have stated earlier in this thread Bulgarian is a pluricentric language with at the present moment 3\three standardized versions.


http://pic.mk/images/fieldsofwh.jpg

Anastasia Karakasidou is Associate Professor of Anthropology at Wellesley College.
Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood page 83.

This is not a serious source, hence you'll have to forgive me for not commenting on it.

I don't see any comments on your part concerning the quotes in this :post of mine (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=738749&postcount=23)... nor the three posts in the begining of the thread which are also quotes.

[morski]

Macedonian Lexicon - 16th Century

Un Lexique Macedonien du XVie siecle. Institut d'Etudes Slaves del'Universite de Paris. Giannelli, Ciro and Andre Vaillant. 1958.


http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/un-lexique-macedonien-du-xvi-siecle-p00.png

Macedonia during the Middle Ages

By the end of the 14th century, Macedonia had already been under Ottoman rule for a few decades, losing its status as a vassal state under the leadership of King Marko in 1395. As the greater region was finally deprived of any sense of liberty after the death of George Kastriot - Skenderbeg in 1444, forms of local state structure in Macedonia ceased to exist. This left the responsibility of retaining the culture, language and identity of the people with the religious institutions that were active in Macedonia at that time. The traditional influence of the Patriarchate at Constantinople that was prevalent during the Roman period had resurfaced again in the Ottoman Empire, as the latter looked to use the former to consolidate a single Roman Millet of Orthodox Christians within their domains. However, institutions such as the Archbishopric of Ohrid and even more significantly the hundreds of churches in Macedonia, played a pivotal role in ensuring the local culture, language and identity of the people would survive throughout the centuries of hardships.

Despite the absence of written works relating to statehood, material of a religious and educational character continued to flourish, and Church Slavonic, an essentially Macedonian tongue that was initially developed for such purposes in the 9th century, remained the literary language of the Macedonian people. However, the vernacular tongue of the Macedonians had co-existed with Church Slavonic and matured over the years, demonstrating a remarkable resilience and stability, which earned its introduced as the language of church services in Macedonia. The Macedonians were faced with foreign interference in both their lands and institutions, but their language had been largely solidified, evidenced in the fact that spoken Macedonian from the 16th century has a far greater affinity to spoken Macedonian dialects of today than it does to Church Slavonic. For well over half of a millenium, the Macedonian language has basically remained the same.

Vocabulary and Linguistic Characteristics

The texts reveal distinctive local features that have tenaciously survived the ages, and are still present in a number of today’s spoken Macedonian dialects. This fact reveals the remarkable consistency of the Macedonian language despite the lack of state support or schooling until the 20th century. Below is a sample of words from the texts, along with linguistic characteristics peculiar to the language of the Macedonians.

Animal/Food/Anatomy Terms - Mrave (Ants); Curvec (Worm), Sokol (Falcon), Vrapci (Birds), Golobi (Pigeons), Kokoshki (Chickens), Petel (Rooster), Ofci (Sheep), Kozi (Goats), Jagne (Lamb), Mechika (Bear), Elen (Deer), Lisica (Fox), Kon (Horse), Krusha (Pear), Meso (Meat), Sireni (Cheese), Jajca (Eggs), Vino (Wine), Sol (Salt), Zhito (Grain), Koska (Bone), Gas (Buttocks), Kuro (Penis), Made (Testicles).

Unique and Loan Words - The word Galuhci (Mice) is used, which can also be said as Gluhci or Glufci, and Macedonians are the only people who use this word. The word Veligden (Easter) is used, pronounced with the ‘g’ in Macedonian only. Turkish loans are very rare, one example being Jorgano (Blanket).

Dialectal and Jat Features - The Kostur region contains dialects that have retain several archaic characteristics, such as the word Ranka (Hand) rather than the more common Macedonian variant of Raka. An interesting trend is found in the use of multiple transitions of the Jat feature that is present in various Macedonian and Slavonic dialects. For example, the text employs the word Dedo (Grandfather) and not Djado, yet Hljap (Bread) and not Lep or Leb.

Definite Articles - The typical Macedonian postfixed definite article is exhibited in words such as Krushata (The Pear) and Dushata (The Soul). It is also noted in the word Patot (The Path) for ‘the path’, although as the case of Jorgano (The Blanket) demonstrates, the ‘t’ at the end can also be dropped, as in several of today’s Macedonian dialects.

Words and Phrases, Unchanged for Centuries.

Containing a rich glossary and in excess of 300 words and phrases, the texts demonstrate the strength of the Macedonian language through preservation. Following is a comparison of sentences between the texts and the Macedonian dialect of Bitola as spoken today.

16th cent., Kostur dialect
21st cent., Bitola dialect

Gospodine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostavi ni da spime, ela da jame, i da pieme, dol da pojdime, da rabotime.
Gospodine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostai ne da spiame, ela da jaime, i da piame, dolu da pojdime, da rabotime.

Imate hljap-o da kupime, imate vino da kupime, ot koja strana da pojdime vo Bogasko.
Imate lep da kupime, imate vino da kupime, od koja strana da pojdime vo Bogatsko.

As can be clearly noticed, most of the vocabulary and grammar is identical.

All of the elements that would later be required to rejuvinate the Macedonian people as they were shaking off centuries of subjugation, were present during this period. The language of the people had solidified, a tradition of heraldry and symbolism had developed which incorporated the emblem of a rapant lion and historical figures from Macedonia’s past, and the churches continued preserve the local customs and serve as cultural centres for the population. The significance of all these elements together cannot be overstated, the language of medieval Macedonia is the same as the language of the Macedonians today. Unfortunately, only a small portion of the larger amount of Macedonian literature from the Middle Ages has survived, much of it being looted and destroyed by Greek-speaking officials, clerics and teachers. Nevertheless, Macedonian as a language reached its current form centuries before the creation of the Balkan states in the 19th and 20th centuries.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/un-lexique-macedonien-du-xvi-siecle-p23.png

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/un-lexique-macedonien-du-xvi-siecle-p24.png

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/un-lexique-macedonien-du-xvi-siecle-p25.png

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/un-lexique-macedonien-du-xvi-siecle-p26.png

There is more but enough for you.

All I see here is a bunch of words and expresions from the Westernmost part of the Bulgarian dialect continuum:

http://www.bulgari-istoria-2010.com/booksBG/BET_2.PNG


Animal/Food/Anatomy Terms - Mrave (Ants); Curvec (Worm), Sokol (Falcon), Vrapci (Birds), Golobi (Pigeons), Kokoshki (Chickens), Petel (Rooster), Ofci (Sheep), Kozi (Goats), Jagne (Lamb), Mechika (Bear), Elen (Deer), Lisica (Fox), Kon (Horse), Krusha (Pear), Meso (Meat), Sireni (Cheese), Jajca (Eggs), Vino (Wine), Sol (Salt), Zhito (Grain), Koska (Bone), Gas (Buttocks), Kuro (Penis), Made (Testicles).

In standard Bulgarian and transliterated in the LAtin alphabet: Mravki, Chervey, Sokol, Vrabci, Galabi, Kokoshki, Petel, Ovci, Kozi, Agne, Mechka, Elen, Lisica, Kon, Krusha, Meso, Sirene, Yayca, Vino, Sol, Zhito, Kost, Gaz, Kur, Made- pretty much the same.


Gospodine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostavi ni da spime, ela da jame, i da pieme, dol da pojdime, da rabotime.
Gospodine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostai ne da spiame, ela da jaime, i da piame, dolu da pojdime, da rabotime.


In standard Bulgarian again: Gosposdine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostavi ni da spim, ela da yadem i da piem, dolu da otidem, da rabotim.


Imate hljap-o da kupime, imate vino da kupime, ot koja strana da pojdime vo Bogasko.
Imate lep da kupime, imate vino da kupime, od koja strana da pojdime vo Bogatsko.


This one would be: Imate hlyab da kupim, imate vino da kupim, ot koya strana otidem v Bogatsko.

[TojSum]

Analytical Balkano-Slavic aka Bulgarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language)


Of course I am fluent only in standard Bulgarian as spoken in the rep. of Bulgaria. But I do understand the norm in fyroMacedonia and the codified vernacular of the Banat Bulgarians as well. As I have stated earlier in this thread Bulgarian is a pluricentric language with at the present moment 3\three standardized versions.



This is not a serious source, hence you'll have to forgive me for not commenting on it.

I don't see any comments on your part concerning the quotes in this :post of mine (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=738749&postcount=23)... nor the three posts in the begining of the thread which are also quotes.

As i told you first we must clarify some things and then you will see comments.

Now we must clarify another thing.

Anastasia Karakasidou is Associate Professor of Anthropology at Wellesley College.

Anastasia Karakasidou is a social anthropologist. She received her doctorate degree from Columbia University in 1992. Her specializations are themes of nationhood and identity; religion and ideology; gender and social stratification; narrative and history; and anthropological theory. She has recently published a book entitled Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood: Passages to Nationhood in Greek Macedonia, 1870-1990 with University of Chicago Press (1997), as well as a number of articles on the ideology of nationhood in Greece and the Balkans.


Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood page 83.
http://pic.mk/images/fieldsofwh.jpg.

Why this is not serious source ??? :))) It is released from University of Chicago Press, Oct 15, 1997

And you want to tell that:

Wikipedia (or like i want to call it shitipedia) or Youtube are serious??? :)))

[morski]

Unique and Loan Words - The word Galuhci (Mice) is used, which can also be said as Gluhci or Glufci, and Macedonians are the only people who use this word. The word Veligden (Easter) is used, pronounced with the ‘g’ in Macedonian only. Turkish loans are very rare, one example being Jorgano (Blanket).


Galuhci is not present in standard Bulgarian, but so are many other dialect words, archaisms etc. from all parts of the Bulgarian diasystem.

Veligden=Velikden, if this one different letter is the oh so unique feature of "MAcedonian"... :rolleyes:

Jorgano=Yurgana :thumb001:


Dialectal and Jat Features - The Kostur region contains dialects that have retain several archaic characteristics, such as the word Ranka (Hand) rather than the more common Macedonian variant of Raka. An interesting trend is found in the use of multiple transitions of the Jat feature that is present in various Macedonian and Slavonic dialects. For example, the text employs the word Dedo (Grandfather) and not Djado, yet Hljap (Bread) and not Lep or Leb.

The Yat and Yus maps of Bulgarian dialect continuum:

http://static.dialektite.com/images/maps/yus.png

http://static.dialektite.com/images/maps/yat.png


Definite Articles - The typical Macedonian postfixed definite article is exhibited in words such as Krushata (The Pear) and Dushata (The Soul). It is also noted in the word Patot (The Path) for ‘the path’, although as the case of Jorgano (The Blanket) demonstrates, the ‘t’ at the end can also be dropped, as in several of today’s Macedonian dialects.


In modern Bulgarian, definiteness is expressed by a definite article which is postfixed to the noun, much like in the Scandinavian languages or Romanian (indefinite: човек, 'person'; definite: човекът, "the person") or to the first nominal constituent of definite noun phrases (indefinite: добър човек, 'a good person'; definite: добрият човек, "the good person"). There are four singular definite articles. Again, the choice between them is largely determined by the noun's ending in the singular.[29] Nouns that end in a consonant and are masculine use –ът/–ят, when they are grammatical subjects, and –а/–я elsewhere. Nouns that end in a consonant and are feminine, as well as nouns that end in –а/–я (most of which are feminine, too) use –та. Nouns that end in –е/–о use –то.

The plural definite article is –те for all nouns except for those, whose plural form ends in –а/–я; these get –тa instead. When postfixed to adjectives the definite articles are –ят/–я for masculine gender (again, with the longer form being reserved for grammatical subjects), –та for feminine gender, –то for neuter gender, and –те for plural.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#Definiteness_.28article.29

[TojSum]

All I see here is a bunch of words and expresions from the Westernmost part of the Bulgarian dialect continuum:



Then why is called Macedonian???

[morski]

As i told you first we must clarify some things and then you will see comments.

Now we must clarify another thing.

Anastasia Karakasidou is Associate Professor of Anthropology at Wellesley College.

Anastasia Karakasidou is a social anthropologist. She received her doctorate degree from Columbia University in 1992. Her specializations are themes of nationhood and identity; religion and ideology; gender and social stratification; narrative and history; and anthropological theory. She has recently published a book entitled Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood: Passages to Nationhood in Greek Macedonia, 1870-1990 with University of Chicago Press (1997), as well as a number of articles on the ideology of nationhood in Greece and the Balkans.


Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood page 83.
http://pic.mk/images/fieldsofwh.jpg.

Why this is not serious source ??? :))) It is released from University of Chicago Press, Oct 15, 1997

And you want to tell that:

Wikipedia (or like i want to call it shitipedia) or Youtube are serious??? :)))

not a linguist, nor a historian.

[morski]

Then why is called Macedonian???

Who calls it Macedonian?

[TojSum]

Who calls it Macedonian?
Guy who made it in 16th Century.

[TojSum]

not a linguist, nor a historian.

Correct. She is Anthropologist . Def of anthropology:
Anthropology /ænθrɵˈpɒlədʒi/ is a social science that deals with the origins, physical and cultural development, biological characteristics, social customs, and beliefs of humankind. It has origins in the humanities, the natural sciences, and the social sciences.[1] The term "anthropology" is from the Greek anthrōpos (ἄνθρωπος), "man", understood to mean mankind or humanity, and -logia (-λογία), "discourse" or "study."
Anthropology's basic concerns are the definition of human life and origin, how social relations among humans are organized, who the ancestors of modern Homo sapiens are, what the characterizations of human physical traits are, how humans behave, why there are variations among different groups of humans, how the evolutionary past of Homo sapiens have influenced its social organization and culture and so forth.[citation needed]
Which makes here very serious source about your behavior for Macedonian language.
You didn’t answer is this women less serious then wiki and youtube??? :))))

Buy the way she is a greek and she talking about Macedonian language??? :)

[morski]

Buy the way she is a greek and she talking about Macedonian language??? :)

Bingo:D

Wikipedia is all right imo. And the sources are good.

[morski]

Ok, just for the fun of it.:D

So, that's your link: http://pic.mk/images/fieldsofwh.jpg

and basically I can't find anything in the text that proves "Macedonian" is different than Bulgarian. Actually it doesn't mention Macedonia at all except: "... base the national language on the dialect of Thrace and eastern Macedonia rather than on that spoken in the regions of northern Bulgaria"- we can therefor make the conclusion that since Macedonian dialect was represented in the national language there was no need to create a separate Macedonian language in 1944.

Again from the text in your link: "... in 1864 began putting out the first monthly magazine in the region written in Bulgarian."


Когато списание "Зорница" се появява в Цариград през 1864г., то не е първото издание на български език в столицата на Османската империя. През Възрожденския период в Цариград излизат около 20 вестника и 9 списания. От 1862г. от Високата порта е открит Департамент по печата, който има за цел да цензурира пресата – и българските вестници, издавани в Цариград, са ограничени, поради либералното си съдържание, от тези тенденции, докато вестниците, издавани на север от Дунав, се отличават с по-радикална идеология. Цензурата над българския печат се извършва от етнически българи османски чиновници.


When the magazine "Zornitsa" appeared in Constantinople in 1864 it is not the first periodic publication in bulgarian language in the capital of the Ottoman empire. In the national revival period in Constantiople were being published 20 newspapers and 9 magazines. Since 1862 the Sublime Porte had been established a Press-Department which had the purpose of censoring the press- and Bulgarian newspapres published in Constantinople were limited by this arrangement because of their liberal content, while those published in the North of the Danube river wer notably more radical ideologically. The censorship over Bulgarian press was carried on by ethnic Bulgarians who served as Ottoman burocrats.


Но поради голямата си популярност и широка социална насока, "Зорница" заема изключително важна позиция в българската историография. В годините след Освобождението "Зорница" е разглеждан от историците като вестникът, оказал най-силно влияние върху развитието на българите през Възраждането. Заслугата за качеството на списанието и вестника е на американските мисионери д-р Алберт Лонг и д-р Илайъс Ригс, за когото се предполага, че е един от първите инициатор на в-к "Зорница".

But because of the big popularity and wide social focus Zornitsa took on a very important position in Bulgarian historiography. In the post-liberation years Zornitsa was accepted among historians as the newspaper that had the biggest influence on the develpment of Bulgarians during the national revival. The merit for the quality of the magazine and the newspaper goes to d-r Albert Long and d-r Elias Riggs, of whom it is thought to be one of the first initiators of Zornitsa.


Трудът на двамата при редактирането, издаването и разпространението на вестника в условията на Османската империя разкрива истинската си величина и стойност, когато стане ясно, че са обхванати всички земи, населявани от българи – от Македония до Бесарабия и от Беломорска Тракия до Западните покрайнини. Изключителна за времето си е и прогресивната ориентация на „Зорница” относно образа и ролята на жената в българското общество под влиянието на редакторката Марта Ригс. Паралелно на изданието, протестантското общество в България и динамиката на мисионерската работа изискват силите на тримата и сътрудниците им.Те обичат българския народ и се обричат на националната му кауза, изучават и говорят езика му, стават част от неговата съдба.

The work of both men in the editing, publishing and distributing the newspaper in the conditions of the Ottoman empire reveals the true greatness and value when it is brought to one's knowledge that it encompassed all regions populated by Bulgarians- from Macedonia to Besarabia and from Aegean Thrace to the Western outlands. Exceptional for its time is also the progressive orientation of Zornitsa with regard to the picture and role of Bulgarian women in the community due to the influence of the editor Martha Riggs. Parallel with the publishing, the protestant community in Bulgaria and the dinamics of missionary work demanded the talent of the three and their associates. They love the Bulgarian people and devoted themsleves to the national cause of the Bulgarians, learned and spoke their language, became a part of their destiny.

http://www.mediapool.bg/%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA-%E2%80%9C%D0%B7%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B 0%E2%80%9D-%E2%80%93-%D0%B6%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0-%D0%B1%D1%8A%D0%BB%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D 0%B0-%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F-%D0%B8-%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B0-news118918.html

What else... ah, this shit: in fact, Zornitsa eventually became a generic term for newspaper in Bulgaria 9."

Can't seem to find this 9 reference in this file you linked us to, but this is just nonsense. Вестник is newspaper in Bulgarian. Never heard Zornitsa being used as a synonim.

As to what the prince of Montenegro said... well, I, morski say that if it wasn't for the astral projection of the vile magician Aasdfh from the planet Efgjgfi in the Rfdsifj system there wouldn't be any Monteniggers(:P) today.

Ajmo uzivaj!;)

[TojSum]

Ok, just for the fun of it.:D

So, that's your link: http://pic.mk/images/fieldsofwh.jpg

and basically I can't find anything in the text that proves "Macedonian" is different than Bulgarian. Actually it doesn't mention Macedonia at all except: "... base the national language on the dialect of Thrace and eastern Macedonia rather than on that spoken in the regions of northern Bulgaria"- we can therefor make the conclusion that since Macedonian dialect was represented in the national language there was no need to create a separate Macedonian language in 1944.


What else... ah, this shit: in fact, Zornitsa eventually became a generic term for newspaper in Bulgaria 9."

Can't seem to find this 9 reference in this file you linked us to, but this is just nonsense. Вестник is newspaper in Bulgarian. Never heard Zornitsa being used as a synonim.

As to what the prince of Montenegro said... well, I, morski say that if it wasn't for the astral projection of the vile magician Aasdfh from the planet Efgjgfi in the Rfdsifj system there wouldn't be any Monteniggers(:P) today.

Ajmo uzivaj!;)

Basically the text shows that you are speaking dialect of Macedonian language and that American missionaries are creators of so called modern Bulgarian language (the real one i already show you http://turkic-languages.scienceontheweb.net/ )

If it’s for you the words Eastern Macedonia not mentioning Macedonia then you have serious problem.

About Zornitza from your favorite site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria_%E2%80%93_United_States_relations

From first contacts to 1919

American missionaries and schools in Bulgaria

The first contact between Americans and Bulgarians in the early 19th century was through American books and American missionaries. The first American literature to be translated into Bulgarian was Benjamin Franklin's introduction to Poor Richard's Almanac, "The Way to Wealth", in 1837. In 1839 a Protestant religious society, the American Board of Commissioners for Foreign Missions, sent the first Protestant missionaries to the Ottoman Empire, where the Ottoman Government had given them permission to preach to the Christian population. One of these missionaries, Elias Riggs, learned Bulgarian and published the first guide to Bulgarian grammar for foreigners in 1843. By the end of the 1850s, American missionaries had printed and distributed a version of the Bible in the Bulgarian vernacular. Charles Morse published a full textbook of Bulgarian grammar in 1860, and compiled the first Bulgarian-English dictionary.

In 1860, the first American school (today called the American College of Sofia) was founded in Plovdiv by missionaries from the Congregational Church. Besides Bible instruction, it taught mathematics, chemistry, physics, and the English language. In 1863, a school for young women was opened in Stara Zagora. The two schools merged and moved to Samokov in 1869. The American School of Samokov offered an American-style education, taught in English to the Bulgarians.

Robert College, a branch of the State University of New York, also played an important part in educating the new Bulgarian elite. It opened its campus in Istanbul in 1863, teaching mathematics, natural history, economics, logic, political history, international law, philosophy, and the English language. By 1868 half the student body were Bulgarians. Three future Prime Ministers of Bulgaria, Konstantin Stoilov, Todor Ivanchov, and Ivan Evstratiev Geshov, studied there. American missionaries also founded the newspaper Zornitsa, which published for seventy-six years, with articles on science, history, and the theory and practice of western democracy. The model of the American Republic was frequently discussed by Bulgarian intelligentsia as one model for an independent Bulgaria.

The Protestant missionaries had limited success in Bulgaria. Their work was opposed by the Bulgarian Orthodox Church and by many leaders of the Bulgarian national-liberation movement, who did not want to see Bulgaria divided by religion, but the schools and newspapers founded by the missionaries contributed to the Bulgarian National Awakening and the American missionaries who returned to the United states often became unofficial diplomats for Bulgaria.

Something else in this context:
http://eabulgaria.org/index.php?Itemid=30&id=17&lang=en&option=com_content&task=view

Prince of Montenegro knows very well what to say and when to say :))

Јас уживам додека те гледам како се потиш, не се секирај :):thumb001:

[poiuytrewq0987]

Scandinavian countries can speak with each others with degrees of mutual intelligibility... I guess it's crazy that there is a Norwegian, Swedish and Danish languages? They should rename other two languages Swedish, according to Morskiology.

[morski]

Ok, ok. Bulgarians speak a form of "Macedonian". I can agree to that. It's just that it was in most cases called Bulgarian in the past. :D

Can we have peace now?:thumb001:


I'll also ask you not to derail the thread. Toipc is "The making of the fyroMacedonian language", not the making of the Bulgarian one. If you cannot dispute the info I've posted earlier do not post junk here.

[TojSum]

Ok, ok. Bulgarians speak a form of "Macedonian". I can agree to that. It's just that it was in most cases called Bulgarian in the past. :D

Yes off course :))))

Lets see:

First about your scientis.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Boogaria%20a%20history/brown275.jpg

Basically no one believes in your lies back in 1914, no one in 1984 and no one today.

Now lets see is Macedonian called Bulgarian:

Guide to the Slavonic Languages" from Reginald G.A. de Bray, London, 1951.


http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss59/ARHIV/Slavonic_languages_title_1951.png

http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss59/ARHIV/Slavonic_languages_published-1951.png

Read the first sentence.

http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss59/ARHIV/Slavonic_languages_p243.png

On Macedonian for you:

Заради иронијата на историјата народот чии предци им го дадоа на Словените нивниот прв литературен јазик, беа последни на кои им се призна нивниот модерен јазик како Словенски и различен од соседните Српски и Бугарски.

From your mother Russia:

Regardless of the significant dialectal diversity, the Macedonian dialects are a unit and are noticeably distinct from the national dialects of Thrace, the Rhodope Mts., Mysia and the Balkan Mts. . . . . All of Macedonia can be divided into two dialect groups: the region to the west of the Vardar River and the southeast region of Macedonia. The second group includes also the dialects of Kostur (Castoria).

The western group is characterized by the following dialectal features: 1) three forms of the article, -ot (masc.), -ta (fem.), -to (neut.);

-ov, -va, -vo, -on, -na, -no; 2) third person singular present ending -t; 3) stress on the third syllable from the end; 4) the phraseological character of stress. The western Macedonian dialects are furhter divided into several dialect groups: Debar, Ohrid, central, Tikvesh-Mariovo, Veles-Skopje, Upper Polog and Lower Polog. Characteristic of the southeast dialects are: the pronouns on, ona, ono, oni; the preposition 505, etc.

The trying historical conditions experienced by the Macedonians have left their imprint on their culture. After the first imperialistic war (1914-1918) the greater part of Macedonia was joined to Yugoslavia. National oppression by the ruling Serbian bourgeoisie is exceptionally heavy. Serbian linguistic science, in the person of Belic, denies any right of self-determination to the Macedonian Slavs, claiming that the Macedonian Slavs are Serbs. On the other hand, Bulgarian linguistic science, which serves the purposes of Bulgarian imperialism, does not recognize the right of the Macedonians to independent national development. Southern Macedonia belongs to Greece, where there is also strong national oppression.

The Great Soviet Encyclopedia, vol.37, Moscow, 1938, pp.743-744
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture
James Mallory (Editor), D.Q. Adams (Editor)

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/ieculture.png

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/ieculture301.png

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/ieculture523.png

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Old Church Slavonic Grammar
Horace G. Lunt (Author)

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/luntocs.png

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/luntocs7.png

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/vlasto182.png

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/vlasto182a.png

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Southeastern Europe in the Middle Ages, 500–1250

Florin Curta, University of Florida

http://www.cambridge.org/gb/knowledge/isbn/item1169884/?site_locale=en_GB

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/florin.png

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/florin285-1.png

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/florin286.png



Can we have peace now?:thumb001:

I have peace, you dont have??? :thumbs up



I'll also ask you not to derail the thread. Toipc is "The making of the fyroMacedonian language", not the making of the Bulgarian one. If you cannot dispute the info I've posted earlier do not post junk here.

Only one who posts junk here is you. Your propaganda materials without any reliable source are junks to. Since your posts referring that Macedonian language is Bulgarian i must to deny that and for that purpose we all must learn something about bulgarin. I’m disputing with very reliable sources, you don’t dispute you are spreading propaganda. Now look and read very carefully my links above (About origin of Macedonian language) and we can go further (Back in time) with discussion.

[TojSum]

A bilingual vernacular Gospel manuscript from Macedonia
(late 18th – early 19th century)

The Konikovo Gospel (Bibl.Patr.Alex. 268)


In the winter of 2003/04, researchers from the University of Helsinki found an interesting bilingual manuscript, written in what is now Greek Macedonia in the late 18th or early 19th century. It contains a Greek evangeliarium (Gospel lectionary for Sunday services) and its Slavic translation, both written in Greek letters. What makes the manuscript unique is its bilinguality, and the fact that both the Greek and the Slavic texts represent the vernacular, not the church language. The Slavic part is the oldest known text of greater scope that directly reflects the living dialects of Southern Macedonia. It is also the oldest known Gospel translation in Modern Macedonian.

More here:

http://www.helsinki.fi/~jslindst/268/

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In 2004, Victor Friedman, Professor of Slavic and Balkan Linguistics at the University of Chicago, wrote about the manuscript as follows:

The significance of the Konikovo Gospel for the study of Macedonian cannot be overestimated. At the same time, this Gospel will also contribute to the study of colloquial Modern Greek. In the case of Macedonian, the southern dialect of the Lower Vardar (or Voden-Kukuš) type represented in the manuscript is one that is in most urgent need of documentation and study. Owing to the domination of the Church Slavonic tradition on the territory where Macedonian was spoken from the Middle Ages until the nineteenth century, we have very little manuscript evidence documenting the changes that took place in the spoken language during that crucial period. Moreover, such documentation as we do have comes mostly from manuscript traditions produced in Macedonia’s southwestern periphery (Ohrid) and the northeastern region (Kratovo). The southeastern dialects of the type represented by the Konikovo Gospel are thus very important in helping us complete our picture of the development of Macedonian. At the same time, because the Lower Vardar dialects were almost all spoken in a region which was assigned to Greece at the end of the Balkan Wars in 1913, one in which hundreds of thousands of Greek- and Turkish-speaking refugees were settled as a result of the exchange of populations between Greece and Turkey 1922-23, one which was the focus of Greek attempts to create a homogenous nation-state by stamping out minority languages during the inter-war period, and one which saw the most serious fighting during the Greek Civil War and from which thousands of Macedonian-speakers fled after 1948, our data on these dialects is extremely limited. There are very few speakers of the dialect left in the region. In addition to the vicissitudes of war and persecution which reduced such data concerning these dialects as has come down to us, there is the additional complication that activists from this region who sought to promote a Macedonian ethnic and national consciousness wrote in a different dialect — the West Central (Veles-Prilep-Bitola-Brod) one — as this was, by general consensus, even at the beginning of the twentieth century, the most distinctive and at the same time most readily comprehensible to the largest number of people. The Konikovo Gospel is thus an extremely rare and precious testimony both to Macedonian literary activity and at the same time a valuable resource for an inadequately attested but linguistically important Macedonian dialect.


OU’T PERVO BESHE RETCHTA, I RETCHETA BESHE SOS BOGA, I BOG BESHE RETCHTA. VOA BESHE OT PERVO SOS BOGA. SITE RABOTI ZARDI NIZ LAKARDIATA SE TCHINIA, I BEZ NEGO NESATCHINE NIKOE OT KOLKU SE TCHINIA. OUT NEGO BESHE ZHIVOT – I ZHIVO


KE VIDOA GOSPODA.
I JESUS PAK MU KAZHA - MIR NA VAS - KE ME POSHTI TATKO, I JAZE POSHTAM NA VAS
I KE RETCHE VOA, DOINA NA NIH, I RETCHE ZEMAITE DUH SFETIJ
I NA KOGOTO GREHOVETAI PROSTITE, SE PROSTENI, I NA KOGO ZAPRITE SE ZAPRENI
I THOMA SE VELISHE BLIZNAK, EDNO OT DVANAISTE, NE BESHE SOS NIH, KOGA DOIDE JESUS. MU VELEA (……..) DRUZITE UTCHENITSOI – VIDOHME GOSPODA
I ON MU RETCHE - AKO NE VIDAM NA RATSETEMU NISIANITAIOT KARFIITE, I AKO NE KLADAM PRASTOTMI NA NISIANITE OT KARFIITE, I AKO NE KLADAM RAKATAMI NA REBROTOMU, NEKE VERUVAM
BOGA NIKOI NEKOI PAT NEGO VIDE - EDINORODNIOT SIN, SHTO EI OT PA ZVATA NA TATKOTO, ON GO RAZRETCHE - I VEA EI MARTURIATA NA JOANNA - KOGA POSHTIA

[MandM]

wait wait a minute how can macedonians speak bulgarian dialect when macedonia has been since alexander the great, and bulgarians came much later :P

[Hurrem sultana]

wow wait bulgarians trying to force macedonians to speak bulgarian? geez you behave like serbs :D

[Crn Volk]

The Bulgars are a disappearing race. In their last census, their numbers dropped dramatically. I guess low birthrate, and mass migration to western countries has caused this. Bulgars need to concentrate on Bulgaria more, and not Macedonia or the Macedonians.

[MandM]

wow wait bulgarians trying to force macedonians to speak bulgarian? geez you behave like serbs :D

wait a little miss bosnian, serbs never forced any one to speak serbian, but it would be easier if u spoke serbian so the hole world would understand u :p

[MandM]

The Bulgars are a disappearing race. In their last census, their numbers dropped dramatically. I guess low birthrate, and mass migration to western countries has caused this. Bulgars need to concentrate on Bulgaria more, and not Macedonia or the Macedonians.

to be fair its happening to almost ever european countrie:(

[morski]

Yes off course :))))

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Boogaria%20a%20history/brown275.jpg

http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss59/ARHIV/Slavonic_languages_title_1951.png

http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss59/ARHIV/Slavonic_languages_published-1951.png

Read the first sentence.

http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss59/ARHIV/Slavonic_languages_p243.png

Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture
James Mallory (Editor), D.Q. Adams (Editor)

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/ieculture.png

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/ieculture301.png

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/ieculture523.png

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Old Church Slavonic Grammar
Horace G. Lunt (Author)

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/luntocs.png

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/luntocs7.png

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/vlasto182.png

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/vlasto182a.png

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Southeastern Europe in the Middle Ages, 500–1250

Florin Curta, University of Florida

http://www.cambridge.org/gb/knowledge/isbn/item1169884/?site_locale=en_GB

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/florin.png

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/florin285-1.png

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/florin286.png






What's with FYROMians and their .png, .jpg cropped out lines from "sources". It's pathetic.

Horace Lunt is a protege/солташак of (B)Laze Koneski/Лаже Конески/Благойе Лямевич/Благой Конев:confused::


My title would seem to put Horace Lunt in the position of isapostolos, or a latter-day Saint; "disciple" would be more appropriate. Like St. Cyril, he is a distinguished multilinguist. Since 1959 professor of Slavic at Harvard, he has worked both ends of the longMacedonian street. His first major work, written at the Biblical age 33, was a Grammar of the Macedonian Literary Language (Skopje, 1952), the first languistic description and analysis in any language. Lunt's is the only grammar listed in Koneski's Istorija na Makedonskiot Jazik (History of the Macedonian Language, Skopje 1965), aside from his own. Only three years later (1974) came his Old Church Slavonic Grammar (6th ediction, rev.), described as "the first to be written in English" and for many years a standard work (J. O. Ferrell, Language, vol. 33, p. 450 - 453). A thousand years of spoken Macedonian separate these two grammars.
By-product of Lunt's work on the Macedonian language was his "Survey of Macedonian Literature" in the first volume of Harvard Slavic Studies (1954) of which he was editor. This also was a pioneer work (and remains the only English source - other than an English translation of one of Koneski's works. Towards the Macedonian Renaissance, Skopje, 1961). He has also published a few shorter pieces. Of special interest is an article, "The creation of Standard Macedonian" (Anthropological Linguistics, May, 1959).
Lunt himself tells us how he discovered Macedonia in the Preface to Grammar of the Macedonian Literary Language, p. 1. While in the U. S. Army in 1944, he stumbled on some partizan underground publications in a Macedonian dialect. After the war he attended lectures on Macedonian in Prague, and in 1950 at Bled, given by the leading Skopje authority, Blazhe Koneski, and sponsored by the Yugoslav Council for Science and Culture. In 1951, fresh from a Columbia Ph. D. (1950), he spent three months in Skopje with financial aid from the Yugoslav Council and the Macedonian Ministry of Education, Science, and Culture. There he had the guidance and assistance of Prof. Koneski and associates at the University of Skopje. Thus, Koneski's Slavic Seminar acted as judge and jury in determining what was to be standard. Lunt's Grammar of the Macedonian Literary Language was printed in Belgrade and published by the Macedonian State Press in Skopje in August 1952. It might, therefore, be considered official.

http://www.promacedonia.org/en/other/clarke.html
Therefor not a reliable source.


The trying historical conditions experienced by the Macedonians have left their imprint on their culture. After the first imperialistic war (1914-1918) the greater part of Macedonia was joined to Yugoslavia. National oppression by the ruling Serbian bourgeoisie is exceptionally heavy. Serbian linguistic science, in the person of Belic, denies any right of self-determination to the Macedonian Slavs, claiming that the Macedonian Slavs are Serbs. On the other hand, Bulgarian linguistic science, which serves the purposes of Bulgarian imperialism, does not recognize the right of the Macedonians to independent national development. Southern Macedonia belongs to Greece, where there is also strong national oppression.

The Great Soviet Encyclopedia, vol.37, Moscow, 1938, pp.743-744

Do you believe yourself or do you play the Orwellian doublethink game.:confused:


INSTANT STANDARD LITERARY MACEDONIAN
On August 2, 1944, one of the first acts of the 122 delegates from Macedonia to the Anti-Fascist National Liberation Council, meeting clandestinely at the St. Prohor Pchinski Monastery in Serbia, was the following decree:
1. In the Macedonian state as official language is adopted the People's Macedonian language.
2. This decision enters into force immediately.
(Dokumenti od sozdavanjeto i razvitokot na N. R. Makedonija, Documents on the Creation and Development of the P. R. of Macedonia, Skopje, 1949, p. 22)
This must be the quickest creation of a literary language in history. A Commission, including Blazhe Koneski, was appointed in December to spell out the new literary language. It came up with a new alphabet and orthography on May 3 and June 7, 1945.

http://www.promacedonia.org/en/other/clarke.html


Date of creation: 1944

Place of creation: The Socialist Republic of Macedonia (within the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia) - the "Prohor Pcinski" monastery.

Used by: some 1 000 000 Bulgarians (in Macedonia).

Oldest literary monument: "New Macedonia" newspaper.

Fabrications:


H. Lunt, A Grammar of the Macedonian Literary Language, Skopje, 1952.

(Б)ЛажеКонески, Историjа на македонскиот jазик. Дел I. Увод, За гласовите, За акцентот, Скопjе, 1952; Дел Il: 3a формите и нивната употреба, Cкоnje, 1957.

(Б)Лаже Конески, Исторjа на македонскиот jазик, Скопjе - Белград, 1965, 1981, 1982.

Правопис на македонскиот литературен jазик со правописен речник, Скопjе, 1970, 1979.

Речник на македонскиот jазик со српско-хрватски толкуваниjа (II-III), Скопjе, 1961, 1966, 1979, 1986.

в. Милики , Обратен речник на македонскиот jазик, Скопje, 1967.

Двуезични речници и учебници по немски, английски, френски, полски, румънски, руски и словенски.

Научно списание "Македонски jазик" от 1954 г.

М. Георгиевски, Македонско книжевно наследство од XI до XVIII век, Скопjе, 1979.

Д. Митрев. Повоени македонски поети. Антологиjа, Скопjе, 1960.

М. Друговац, Современи македонски писатели, Скопjе, 1979.

М. Ташковски, Кон етногенезата на македонскиот народ, Скопjе, 1974.

Историjа на македонскиот народ (Институт за национална историjа, Скопjе, 1969. I. Од предисториското време до краjот на ХVIII век. II Од почетокот на ХХ век до краjот на првата светска воjна. III Периодот меу двете светски воjни и народната револуциjа (1918-1945).

While T. Stamatoski (also Stamatov, Stamatovski) wrote back in 1986 on the struggle for Macedonian literary language, looking back and ahead in future at the same time (?) (Борба за македонски литературен jазик, Скопjе), Blaze Koneski had already (3 years before) told the "Communist" (1376, from July 29, 1983) the story of the endorsement and the introduction of this literary language (Афирмациjа на македонскиот jазик. Сосем оформен современен литературен jазик, Скопjе).

A most ridiculous text is the historical phonology of the new language fathered in 1944 (B. Koneski, A Historical Phonology of the Macedonian Language, Heidelberg, 1983).

A major departure was effected, not only from the Bulgarian language, but also from its rich literary heritage, as well as from the world literature in translation. However, something had to be saved, and it was done by encroaching upon the miscellany of songs by the Miladinov brothers, born in Macedonia, and which had been originally entitled "Bulgarian Folk Songs", (1861) containing songs from Struga, Okhrida, Prilep, Kukus, Kostur and from other parts of Vardar and Aegean Macedonia. In 1962 it came out in Skopie under the forged title of "Miscellany", with a forged "Macedonian" text, and on top of everything else, labelled "the most outstanding work ever published, of the Macedonian literature.

http://www.promacedonia.org/en/kronsteiner/ik_3_eng.html

So who falsifies the documentary record now!? You posted this shit:http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Boogaria%20a%20history/brown275.jpg



In the lingual-geographic aspect, the "Macedonian" dialects were declared all too unique, having nothing in common with Bulgarian. This explains why a Macedonian dialectal atlas was never released. Every dialectologist is well aware that there is no dialectical boundary to separate Bulgaria from Macedonia...
http://www.promacedonia.org/en/kronsteiner/ik_3_eng.html

http://www.bulgari-istoria-2010.com/booksBG/BET_2.PNG

[morski]

A bilingual vernacular Gospel manuscript from Macedonia
(late 18th – early 19th century)

The Konikovo Gospel (Bibl.Patr.Alex. 268)


In the winter of 2003/04, researchers from the University of Helsinki found an interesting bilingual manuscript, written in what is now Greek Macedonia in the late 18th or early 19th century. It contains a Greek evangeliarium (Gospel lectionary for Sunday services) and its Slavic translation, both written in Greek letters. What makes the manuscript unique is its bilinguality, and the fact that both the Greek and the Slavic texts represent the vernacular, not the church language. The Slavic part is the oldest known text of greater scope that directly reflects the living dialects of Southern Macedonia. It is also the oldest known Gospel translation in Modern Macedonian.

More here:

http://www.helsinki.fi/~jslindst/268/

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In 2004, Victor Friedman, Professor of Slavic and Balkan Linguistics at the University of Chicago, wrote about the manuscript as follows:

The significance of the Konikovo Gospel for the study of Macedonian cannot be overestimated. At the same time, this Gospel will also contribute to the study of colloquial Modern Greek. In the case of Macedonian, the southern dialect of the Lower Vardar (or Voden-Kukuš) type represented in the manuscript is one that is in most urgent need of documentation and study. Owing to the domination of the Church Slavonic tradition on the territory where Macedonian was spoken from the Middle Ages until the nineteenth century, we have very little manuscript evidence documenting the changes that took place in the spoken language during that crucial period. Moreover, such documentation as we do have comes mostly from manuscript traditions produced in Macedonia’s southwestern periphery (Ohrid) and the northeastern region (Kratovo). The southeastern dialects of the type represented by the Konikovo Gospel are thus very important in helping us complete our picture of the development of Macedonian. At the same time, because the Lower Vardar dialects were almost all spoken in a region which was assigned to Greece at the end of the Balkan Wars in 1913, one in which hundreds of thousands of Greek- and Turkish-speaking refugees were settled as a result of the exchange of populations between Greece and Turkey 1922-23, one which was the focus of Greek attempts to create a homogenous nation-state by stamping out minority languages during the inter-war period, and one which saw the most serious fighting during the Greek Civil War and from which thousands of Macedonian-speakers fled after 1948, our data on these dialects is extremely limited. There are very few speakers of the dialect left in the region. In addition to the vicissitudes of war and persecution which reduced such data concerning these dialects as has come down to us, there is the additional complication that activists from this region who sought to promote a Macedonian ethnic and national consciousness wrote in a different dialect — the West Central (Veles-Prilep-Bitola-Brod) one — as this was, by general consensus, even at the beginning of the twentieth century, the most distinctive and at the same time most readily comprehensible to the largest number of people. The Konikovo Gospel is thus an extremely rare and precious testimony both to Macedonian literary activity and at the same time a valuable resource for an inadequately attested but linguistically important Macedonian dialect.


OU’T PERVO BESHE RETCHTA, I RETCHETA BESHE SOS BOGA, I BOG BESHE RETCHTA. VOA BESHE OT PERVO SOS BOGA. SITE RABOTI ZARDI NIZ LAKARDIATA SE TCHINIA, I BEZ NEGO NESATCHINE NIKOE OT KOLKU SE TCHINIA. OUT NEGO BESHE ZHIVOT – I ZHIVO


KE VIDOA GOSPODA.
I JESUS PAK MU KAZHA - MIR NA VAS - KE ME POSHTI TATKO, I JAZE POSHTAM NA VAS
I KE RETCHE VOA, DOINA NA NIH, I RETCHE ZEMAITE DUH SFETIJ
I NA KOGOTO GREHOVETAI PROSTITE, SE PROSTENI, I NA KOGO ZAPRITE SE ZAPRENI
I THOMA SE VELISHE BLIZNAK, EDNO OT DVANAISTE, NE BESHE SOS NIH, KOGA DOIDE JESUS. MU VELEA (……..) DRUZITE UTCHENITSOI – VIDOHME GOSPODA
I ON MU RETCHE - AKO NE VIDAM NA RATSETEMU NISIANITAIOT KARFIITE, I AKO NE KLADAM PRASTOTMI NA NISIANITE OT KARFIITE, I AKO NE KLADAM RAKATAMI NA REBROTOMU, NEKE VERUVAM
BOGA NIKOI NEKOI PAT NEGO VIDE - EDINORODNIOT SIN, SHTO EI OT PA ZVATA NA TATKOTO, ON GO RAZRETCHE - I VEA EI MARTURIATA NA JOANNA - KOGA POSHTIA



The history of Bible translations into Macedonian is connected in its early years with the history of Bible translations into Bulgarian.

In 1852 in Salonica the cleric Pavel Bozhigrobski, printed a bilingual manuscript. It contains a Greek evangeliarium and its translation to Solun-Voden dialect from today Slavic dialects of Greece, both written in Greek letters. The texts represent the vernacular, not church language. This translation is the oldest known text of greater scope, that directly reflects the living dialects of Aegean Macedonia of that period. Bulgarian Academician Jordan Ivanov, who found the titel page of the gospel in 1907, described it as written in Bulgarian dialect.[1] All the more on the titel page is written: Typed in Bulgarian language, [2] even the author himself, was known later as Bulgarian Exarchate's worker.[3] However the label "Bulgarian language" for various Macedonian dialects can be seen from early vernacular texts such as the four-language dictionary of Daniel Mоscopolites, the early works of Kiril Peichinovich and Yoakim Karchovski and such vernacular gospels written in the Greek alphabet. These written works influenced by or completely written in the local Slavic vernacular were registered in Macedonia in the 18th and beginning of the 19th century and their authors referred to their language as Bulgarian.[4] It is also considered by researchers from the University of Helsinki to be the oldest known Gospel translation in what would later be known as Macedonian language. Until the winter of 2003-04 it was believed that both the manuscript and the printed text, were destroyed. Only the front page was preserved and published in the book "Bulgarian antiquities in Macedonia", Jordan Ivanov, 1931, p. 182., among others. Then a group of researchers from the University of Helsinki found the original manuscript of the translation of the Alexandrian Patriarch, under the reference: Bibl.Patr.Alex. 268. Another example is the Kulakian gospel from 1863, which represents translation from Greek evangeliarium to Solun-Voden dialect and was written by hand with Greek letters from Еvstati Kipriadi in the town of Chalastra. On the titel page is also inscription: Written in Bulgarian language.[5][6]
The Kulakian Gospel title page published in the book "Български старини от Македония", Йордан Иванов, С. 1931, с. 301.

The first complete New Testament translated in the Macedonian language was printed in 1964. The whole Bible (including the Deuterocanonical books) translated in Macedonian by the Archbishop Gavril was printed in 1990. An independent translation of the complete Bible was prepared by Duško Konstantinov in the mid 1970s, but it was not printed until 1996 by the Loucas Foundation[citation needed]. A dynamic translation of the New Testament prepared by Ivan Grozdanov and Goran Stojanov was published in 1999 under the umbrella of the International Bible Society.[7]

Jehovah's Witnesses have translated their New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures into Macedonian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_translations_into_Macedonian


In the attachment is the titular page of the Konikovo gospel with the phrase Bulgarian language underlined by me.:cool:

What you do my dear cousin is: Nemam dokaz ali tvrdim...

Аре, чупка от темата ми!

[Crn Volk]

Wasn't Bulgarian a Turkic language prior to the 9th century?? What happened??

[morski]

Wasn't Bulgarian a Turkic language prior to the 9th century?

No.

[TojSum]

What's with FYROMians and their .png, .jpg cropped out lines from "sources". It's pathetic.

Horace Lunt is a protege/солташак of (B)Laze Koneski/Лаже Конески/Благойе Лямевич/Благой Конев:confused::


http://www.promacedonia.org/en/other/clarke.html
Therefor not a reliable source. [/QUOTE]


I gave you paragraphs from the worlds very well known books and authors, you are giving me tataristic propaganda site which is very well know too and you are trying with this site to discredited my sources. Who’s pathetic??? :))


Do you believe yourself or do you play the Orwellian doublethink game.:confused:
The trying historical conditions experienced by the Macedonians have left their imprint on their culture. After the first imperialistic war (1914-1918) the greater part of Macedonia was joined to Yugoslavia. National oppression by the ruling Serbian bourgeoisie is exceptionally heavy. Serbian linguistic science, in the person of Belic, denies any right of self-determination to the Macedonian Slavs, claiming that the Macedonian Slavs are Serbs. On the other hand, Bulgarian linguistic science, which serves the purposes of Bulgarian imperialism, does not recognize the right of the Macedonians to independent national development. Southern Macedonia belongs to Greece, where there is also strong national oppression.

The Great Soviet Encyclopedia, vol.37, Moscow, 1938, pp.743-744


Why should not believe to people who are responsible for creating bulgaristan???

Your propaganda site is not worth wasting time.


http://www.bulgari-istoria-2010.com/booksBG/BET_2.PNG

Again bulgaristan propaganda map???? :))))) Bulgarian linguistic map from Todor Panayotov :))))

Let’s see real scientist what have to say about this:

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/Makedonia/p.jpg

Ethnolinguistic distribution, ca. 1900
Historical Atlas of Central Europe-Paul Robert Magocsi
You have greetings from the ethnolingustic group with number 20.:thumbs up

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Macedonians, who have their own separate language and indisputable ethnic originality, do not have the right to be called Macedonians.

•Henri Barbusse (1873-1935) French Writer, Un peuple asservi, "Monde" No.108, June 28.1930, p.2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vostokov himself, concerning the question of the origin of the Old Church Slavonic language, was in favor of Macedonism, naming as its fatherland Macedonia, and therefore, said Vostokov, it could be called Macedonian. But Vostokov was never in favor of Bulgarism of this significant scholarly thesis in the narrow meaning of the word, as his opponents claimed; on the contrary, as concerns the Bulgarian tongue itself, it could have, according to Vostokov, differed from the former (Macedonian) in many important features since ancient times and we will note, on our own part, as it differs from it even now. One would expect that sooner or later Vostokov's assertion will be confirmed by the investigation not only of historical linguistic documents but also of the contemporary structure of the Slavic tongues and especially of the Slavic dialects in the supposed fatherland of Cyril and Methodius's Slavic language.

•P.D. Draganov, "Nosovye glasnye zvuki v sovremennych makedonsko-slavjanskich i bolgarskich govorach" (Nasal Vowels in Contemporary Macedo-Slavic and Bulgarian Dialects), Russkij fiblogicheskij vestnik, vol. XIX, issue 10, Warsaw 1888, p.2 (reprint)

[Kanuni]

quote from the chatbox


oh dear, you mean Leo speaks in fyromanian and morski in bulgarian and they understand each other? The fyromanians will be upset

[TojSum]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_translations_into_Macedonian


In the attachment is the titular page of the Konikovo gospel with the phrase Bulgarian language underlined by me.:cool:

What you do my dear cousin is: Nemam dokaz ali tvrdim...

Аре, чупка от темата ми!

You still learn history from wikipedia???? :)))))))))))) Keep it going:thumb001:

Среди се малце како се оденсуваш и немој мене со зборови како "ајде чупка" и престани да шириш глупава анти македонска татарска пропаганда.

[Kanuni]

You still learn history from wikipedia???? :)))))))))))) Keep it going:thumb001:

Среди се малце како се оденсуваш и немој мене со зборови како "ајде чупка" и престани да шириш глупава анти македонска татарска пропаганда.

nemoj da gi vikas tvoite bratovi tatari Zapadni Bulgarin.

[Adrian]

nm

[пустиняк]

Yeah also if you look there is also Pomak language too.

[morski]

You still learn history from wikipedia???? :)))))))))))) Keep it going:thumb001:

Среди се малце како се оденсуваш и немој мене со зборови како "ајде чупка" и престани да шириш глупава анти македонска татарска пропаганда.

I have actually studied history in Sofia University 'St. Kliment Ohridski'.

[TojSum]

I have actually studied history in Sofia University 'St. Kliment Ohridski'.

Now everything is clear :)))))))))))))) Thank you. I finished with you.

[morski]

Now everything is clear :)))))))))))))) Thank you. I finished with you.

Yeah, well, I hope you do realize that when you link your audience to cropped-out .jpg-files you deprive your addressee from the context of the material you desire to use in an argument as well as making it unconvinient checking out the references in those texts.

[poiuytrewq0987]

I have actually studied history in Sofia University 'St. Kliment Ohridski'.

Bulgarian version of history you mean. :rotfl:

[Guapo]

Do you want to play this game?You got it, sugar tits.Your spellings are simply showing a lack knowledge in English.There is big difference between the ignorance such as yours and a grammatical error caused by using a phone.Therefore I'd suggest you to go back to milk sheeps.Peasent

it's Therefore I'd suggest you to go back to milking sheep, not milk sheeps....Peasant :rotfl:

[Crn Volk]

No.

Doesn't the word 'Bulgar' mean mixed in the Turkic languages?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuvash_language

"Chuvash is the most distinctive of the Turkic languages and cannot be understood by speakers of other Turkic tongues. Today, Chuvash is classified, alongside Khazar, Turkic Avar, Bulgar, and, possibly, Hunnic, as a member of the Oghuric branch of the Turkic language family"

Time for a break, time for some Airag in the Yurt....

http://yurtadventure.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/our_yurt.jpg

http://www.gonomad.com/gallery/mongolia/horsemen.jpg

[morski]

Wasn't Bulgarian a Turkic language prior to the 9th century?? What happened??


Doesn't the word 'Bulgar' mean mixed in the Turkic languages?

You clearly have some problems with terminology. Bulgarian ≠ Bulgar or Proto-Bulgarian.

Bulgarian has always been a Slavic language. The first Slavic language to be recorded actually.

[poiuytrewq0987]

You clearly have some problems with terminology. Bulgarian ≠ Bulgar or Proto-Bulgarian.

Bulgarian has always been a Slavic language. The first Slavic language to be recorded actually.

No, it just means you abandoned your Turkic language to fit in Europe. Quite pathetic I might add. At least Turks are proud of their heritage. :thumbs up

[morski]

No, it just means you abandoned your Turkic language to fit in Europe. Quite pathetic I might add. At least Turks are proud of their heritage. :thumbs up

Anyway, thread is about the making of the fyroMacedonian language starting 1944. Lets stay on topic.

[Europa]

it's Therefore I'd suggest you to go back to milking sheep, not milk sheeps....Peasant :rotfl:

I've corrected your sentence sugar tites: It's(a sentence always begins with a capital letter) therefore(not on place yet with capital letter) Peasant(a sentence always ends with this ".").I'd give you 3- for the effort.:coffee: However,you were right about the milking.I'll make sure I won't use my phone when I write to you.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Anyway, thread is about the making of the fyroMacedonian language starting 1944. Lets stay on topic.

And who cares about your version of history? Oh wait, that's right, nobody.

[TojSum]

Anyway, thread is about the making of the fyroMacedonian language starting 1944. Lets stay on topic.

Standard Macedonian was adopted as an official language in August 1944 by a provisional government run by the Anti-Fascist Assembly for the National Liberation of Macedonia (ASNOM) when it declared the formation of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia—a constituent state within the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia—and formal codification was finalized in the same period. Efforts at standardizing the Macedonian language prior to 1944 were unsuccessful on an official level. This date is imprecise; however, Victor Friedman states it was a symbolic act which signified the beginning of a period in which the standard was able to be implemented

Friedman, V. (1998) "The implementation of standard Macedonian: problems and results" in International Journal of the Sociology of Language, Vol. 131, pp. 31-57

Friedman, V. (1985) "The sociolinguistics of literary Macedonian" in International Journal of the Sociology of Language, Vol. 52, pp. 31-57


Now i have two questions for you.
First, when was the last standardization of Bulgarian language??? (Dont lie i know exact date :))
Second, why Efforts at standardizing the Macedonian language prior to 1944 were unsuccessful on an official level ???

[morski]

Standard Macedonian was adopted as an official language in August 1944 by a provisional government run by the Anti-Fascist Assembly for the National Liberation of Macedonia (ASNOM) when it declared the formation of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia—a constituent state within the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia—and formal codification was finalized in the same period. Efforts at standardizing the Macedonian language prior to 1944 were unsuccessful on an official level. This date is imprecise; however, Victor Friedman states it was a symbolic act which signified the beginning of a period in which the standard was able to be implemented

Friedman, V. (1998) "The implementation of standard Macedonian: problems and results" in International Journal of the Sociology of Language, Vol. 131, pp. 31-57

Friedman, V. (1985) "The sociolinguistics of literary Macedonian" in International Journal of the Sociology of Language, Vol. 52, pp. 31-57


Now i have two questions for you.
First, when was the last standardization of Bulgarian language??? (Dont lie i know exact date :))
Second, why Efforts at standardizing the Macedonian language prior to 1944 were unsuccessful on an official level ???

You make a good point here and I commend you for it.

In me own humble opinion it is so because there was little need to do so before this year. The Macedonian intelectual elite before '44 were mostly educated in Exarchate schools and did not feel the standard Bulgarian as a foreign language, not to mention that probably half of them lived in Bulgaria proper anyway.

It was exactly their strong lobbying powers in the principality that had us involved in the wars for National unification as they are known in our historiography. I always like to point out to the fine example general Kliment Boyadzhiev serves for.

He is native to the town of Ohrid and commanded First Bulgarian Army during WWI which happens to have chased out the Serbs from that town. In your view of history that bloke is bugarash, anti-macedonian, predavnik, velikob'lgarin or whatever... in our history he's just a Bulgarian from Macedonia as almost all other prominent figures from Yoakim Krchovski to Ivan Mihaylov.

Point being there was never ever untill 1944 any need for a special 'Macedonian' language to be created for the use of the people of the geographical region of Macedonia of the Slavic persuasion. Except for some
Serboman peasants who were too lazy to learn standard Bulgarian during the years of opression from Belgrad, you know South Serbia, Vardar Banovina, etc.

Now I know about some earlier deviations but they were always a margianl minority and often inspired by foreign propaganda, so they mean little to me.

As for your first question the last standardizaton of the Bulgarian language was at the same time as the standardizaiton of your own language, i.e. after the end of WWII under pressure from the Comintern, but it wasn't as harsh and abrupt. It did however terminate the ability of standard Bulgarian to maintain its function as the Dachsprache for the whole Analytical South-Slavic aka Bulgarian dialect continuum because it removed the YAT(Ѣ) and YUS(Ѫ) characters which used to enable the different pronunciation of the Old-Bulgarian sounds while writing the same. Here is AGAIN the maps of YAT and YUS in the Analytical South-Slavic aka Bulgarian dialects:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Bgmap_yat.png
That's the YAT border between East and West.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Bulgarian_dialect_map-yus.png
aand the regions where what we always pronounce as Ъ now in standard Bulgarian is actually pronounced as А, У, О, ЪМ, ЪН, АМ, АН, ОМ, ОН... in the different dialects.

[Gaztelu]

I find this sudden massive influx of Macedonian users to be very suspicious.

[Crn Volk]

Anyway, thread is about the making of the fyroMacedonian language starting 1944. Lets stay on topic.

OK I'll start a thread on the making of the bolgarian language :D

[Crn Volk]

I find this sudden massive influx of Macedonian users to be very suspicious.

A Macedonian invasion if you like....

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_8WIjkzT4POU/TdljD28qVhI/AAAAAAAAFHE/hVpCN3zXK3Q/Romanos%20contra%20macedonios%20-%20Vladimir%20Vaksheyev.jpg

[TojSum]

You make a good point here and I commend you for it.

In me own humble opinion it is so because there was little need to do so before this year. The Macedonian intelectual elite before '44 were mostly educated in Exarchate schools and did not feel the standard Bulgarian as a foreign language, not to mention that probably half of them lived in Bulgaria proper anyway.

It was exactly their strong lobbying powers in the principality that had us involved in the wars for National unification as they are known in our historiography. I always like to point out to the fine example general Kliment Boyadzhiev serves for.

He is native to the town of Ohrid and commanded First Bulgarian Army during WWI which happens to have chased out the Serbs from that town. In your view of history that bloke is bugarash, anti-macedonian, predavnik, velikob'lgarin or whatever... in our history he's just a Bulgarian from Macedonia as almost all other prominent figures from Yoakim Krchovski to Ivan Mihaylov.

Point being there was never ever untill 1944 any need for a special 'Macedonian' language to be created for the use of the people of the geographical region of Macedonia of the Slavic persuasion. Except for some
Serboman peasants who were too lazy to learn standard Bulgarian during the years of opression from Belgrad, you know South Serbia, Vardar Banovina, etc.

Now I know about some earlier deviations but they were always a margianl minority and often inspired by foreign propaganda, so they mean little to me.

As for your first question the last standardizaton of the Bulgarian language was at the same time as the standardizaiton of your own language, i.e. after the end of WWII under pressure from the Comintern, but it wasn't as harsh and abrupt. It did however terminate the ability of standard Bulgarian to maintain its function as the Dachsprache for the whole Analytical South-Slavic aka Bulgarian dialect continuum because it removed the YAT(Ѣ) and YUS(Ѫ) characters which used to enable the different pronunciation of the Old-Bulgarian sounds while writing the same. Here is AGAIN the maps of YAT and YUS in the Analytical South-Slavic aka Bulgarian dialects:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Bgmap_yat.png
That's the YAT border between East and West.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Bulgarian_dialect_map-yus.png
aand the regions where what we always pronounce as Ъ now in standard Bulgarian is actually pronounced as А, У, О, ЪМ, ЪН, АМ, АН, ОМ, ОН... in the different dialects.


Everything writen above is running from the truth and spreading bulgarian propaganda. Answer is simple. We didnt have our on country and our government so standardization on offical level it was impossible.

Ivan Mihaylov is macedonian and biggest national traitor of Macedonia and fashist to:

http://www.forum.bg-nacionalisti.org/gallery/3103_30_11_09_11_45_00.png

So you can take him :)

I ask you a simple questions and you avoiding them. Dont spread propaganda and answer.

When was the first standardization of Bulgarian language and when was the last one???

This non-sense about YAT i YUS are funny and your bulgarian propaganda maps from wiki are complitly out of mind.

[morski]

Everything writen above is running from the truth and spreading bulgarian propaganda. Answer is simple. We didnt have our on country and our government so standardization on offical level it was impossible.

Ivan Mihaylov is macedonian and biggest national traitor of Macedonia and fashist to:

http://www.forum.bg-nacionalisti.org/gallery/3103_30_11_09_11_45_00.png

So you can take him :)

I ask you a simple questions and you avoiding them. Dont spread propaganda and answer.

When was the first standardization of Bulgarian language and when was the last one???

This non-sense about YAT i YUS are funny and your bulgarian propaganda maps from wiki are complitly out of mind.

I did answer your questions correctly. everyone can see this.

We didn't have a country either when our cultural and educational leaders were in the process of standardizing the language you illiterate yugo-zombie!

Bulgarian had a standard variety before even the Exarchate was established.
:rolleyes2:

[TojSum]

I did answer your questions correctly. everyone can see this.

No you didn't answer me on this two questions:

1.When was the first standardization of Bulgarian language
2. and when was the last one???

You avoiding them like devil.

Because you don't know nothing else i must use your favorite source (just for you to understand well)

Following the efforts of some figures of the National awakening of Bulgaria (the most notable among them being Neofit Rilski and Ivan Bogorov),[8] there had been many attempts to codify a standard Bulgarian language; however, there was much argument surrounding the choice of norms.(Problems during creation of bulgarian language??? Yes its problem when you have to invent something that doesn't exist).

Between 1835–1878 more than 25 proposals were put forward and "linguistic chaos" ensued. (Problems again ???)[9]
Eventually the Eastern dialects prevailed[10] and in 1899 the Ministry of Education officially codified[9] a standard Bulgarian language based on the Drinov-Ivanchev orthography.[10]

Do you remember this picture?:

http://pic.mk/images/fieldsofwh.jpg


Now answer for the second question:

The alphabet of Marin Drinov was used until the orthographic reform of 1945 when the letters yat (Ѣ, ѣ, called "double e"), and yus (Ѫ, ѫ, called "big yus" or "ъ кръстато") were removed from the alphabet, reducing the number of letters to 30.

From your favorite source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language

I will ask one more question (if you don't answer i will for you)

Why you changed your alphabet in 1945 when last standardization happened.


We didn't have a country either when our cultural and educational leaders were in the process of standardizing the language you illiterate yugo-zombie!

Yes, in 1899 you have independent country you delusional lying tataro mongol.

P.S If continue to use terms like illiterate yugo-zombie for me i will use much worst then delusional lying tataro mongol for you.


Bulgarian had a standard variety before even the Exarchate was established.
:rolleyes2:

:crazy::crazy:

[morski]

No you didn't answer me on this two questions:

1.When was the first standardization of Bulgarian language
2. and when was the last one???

You avoiding them like devil.


You only asked about the last standardization originally so I can't be blamed for not answering a not asked question.:rolleyes:

Your question was:

First, when was the last standardization of Bulgarian language?

My answer:

As for your first question the last standardizaton of the Bulgarian language was at the same time as the standardizaiton of your own language, i.e. after the end of WWII under pressure from the Comintern, but it wasn't as harsh and abrupt. It did however terminate the ability of standard Bulgarian to maintain its function as the Dachsprache for the whole Analytical South-Slavic aka Bulgarian dialect continuum because it removed the YAT(Ѣ) and YUS(Ѫ) characters which used to enable the different pronunciation of the Old-Bulgarian sounds while writing the same. Here is AGAIN the maps of YAT and YUS in the Analytical South-Slavic aka Bulgarian dialects:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Bgmap_yat.png
That's the YAT border between East and West.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Bulgarian_dialect_map-yus.png
aand the regions where what we always pronounce as Ъ now in standard Bulgarian is actually pronounced as А, У, О, ЪМ, ЪН, АМ, АН, ОМ, ОН... in the different dialects.

Your hysterical reaction to my answer:
This non-sense about YAT i YUS are funny and your bulgarian propaganda maps from wiki are complitly out of mind.

Yet later you post a similar material pretending to be knowledgeable:


The alphabet of Marin Drinov was used until the orthographic reform of 1945 when the letters yat (Ѣ, ѣ, called "double e"), and yus (Ѫ, ѫ, called "big yus" or "ъ кръстато") were removed from the alphabet, reducing the number of letters to 30.


I will ask one more question (if you don't answer i will for you)

Why you changed your alphabet in 1945 when last standardization happened.

Read above the bolded and reded bits and parts.


Following the efforts of some figures of the National awakening of Bulgaria (the most notable among them being Neofit Rilski and Ivan Bogorov),[8] there had been many attempts to codify a standard Bulgarian language; however, there was much argument surrounding the choice of norms.(Problems during creation of bulgarian language??? Yes its problem when you have to invent something that doesn't exist).

Between 1835–1878 more than 25 proposals were put forward and "linguistic chaos" ensued. (Problems again ???)[9]
Eventually the Eastern dialects prevailed[10] and in 1899 the Ministry of Education officially codified[9] a standard Bulgarian language based on the Drinov-Ivanchev orthography.[10]


There was no Bulgarian state in this period hence no supreme authority able to impose such a norm. Nevertheless there was more or less a standard or at least widely known variety used by literary activists and the educated elite of the Bulgarian nation and understood by the Bulgarian people from Ohrid to Odesa. The number of documents from this period is quite indicative of the existence, usefulness and popularity of the Bulgarian language- things which your language can't claim for the same period.



We didn't have a country either when our cultural and educational leaders were in the process of standardizing the language you illiterate yugo-zombie!

Yes, in 1899 you have independent country you delusional lying tataro mongol.


You do not read aight? Chukcha writer not reader. From your quote:

Between 1835–1878[/B] more than 25 proposals were put forward

The way you behave in this argument is indicative of FYROM's modus operandi. You keep quiet about arguments you can't dispute and you make a fuss about falsified documents and questionable sources . You refuse to use logic in an argument, divert attention and so on and so forth.