hair/eye color and phenotype

[Laudanum]

My eyes are mostly blue, but they are also a bit grey/green, so I was wondering, can people of the ''Nordid'' race have green eyes? I couldn't really find any thread about this, so I hope anyone can answer my question.;)

Thanks,
Folkstorm.

[HawkR]

Well, as it says on Wikipedia:

Green eyes are the product of low to moderate amounts of melanin and probably represent the interaction of multiple variants within the OCA2 and in other genes

OCA2 encodes the human homologue of the mouse p (pink-eyed dilution) gene. The P protein is believed to be an integral membrane protein involved in small molecule transport, specifically tyrosine - a precursor of melanin.

Melanin (Greek μέλας, black; pronounced /ˈmɛlənɪn/ ( listen)) is a class of compounds found in plants, animals, and protists, where it serves predominantly as a pigment.

So, in easier words: Green eyes comes because of a low-moderate amounts of pigmentations to the eye. Blue eyes, have in diference low-zero amounts of pigmentations. Brown eyes, well, take a guess:p

[Laudanum]

Thank you, but are they considered Nordic or not?

[Tabiti]

In most descriptions "light eyes" are mentioned.
Even Hans F.K. Günther (as well known Nordicist) says it is possible, so don't worry;)

The Nordic eye, that is, its iris, is blue, blue-grey, or grey. Although grey eyes are common in the East Baltic race, we must assume that they belong also to the Nordics, for they are found, too, in areas beyond the reach of any East Baltic strain. Nordic eyes often have something shining, something radiant about them. Their expression can grow hard, and generally has something decided about it, but a kindly though always decided expression is not seldom to be seen.
Sorry, this is the only example I can find now, good or bad.

[HawkR]

I would guess they are, it's most common in northern europe, mostly in Skandinavia so yeah. They are/have to be considered nordic.

[Laudanum]

Thanks for helping me, HawKR and Tabiti.:)

[Jarl]

Definitely pale green (blue-green, gray-green) eyes are considered a Northern trait. By this I mean shades from 10 to 12 on the Martin's scale. On the contrary, brown-green and hazel (7-9 on the same scale) are also relatively common in the Med. Green eyes are, however, not typically Germanic or arch-Scandinavian (or for that matter Nordic). From what I know, Celtic, and particularly Slavic and Baltic populations have highest frequencies of green eyes.

[Tabiti]

Green eyes are more "eastern" as a whole, imo.
On the other hand, 90% of the so called green eyes are just mixed types with blue, gray, yellow or hazel shades.

[Sarmata]

Definitely pale green (blue-green, gray-green) eyes are considered a Northern trait. By this I mean shades from 10 to 12 on the Martin's scale. On the contrary, brown-green and hazel (7-9 on the same scale) are also relatively common in the Med. Green eyes are, however, not typically Germanic or arch-Scandinavian (or for that matter Nordic). From what I know, Celtic, and particularly Slavic and Baltic populations have highest frequencies of green eyes.

I thought that blue eyes are rather common(if not just typical) amongst Slavs, from my personal observations I think that Green-eyes are rather rare amongst Poles/Slavs:confused:.

[Vargtand]

yeah I'd say so, isn't race and sub races.. at least their key characteristics something said race and sub race has a higher tendency rather than a requirement. I mean look at me I am fully scandinavian, and I'm neither blond nor tall. That is my take on it at least.

[Inese]

From what I know, Celtic, and particularly Slavic and Baltic populations have highest frequencies of green eyes.
No not many people in Baltic countrys have green eyes.

[Jarl]

I thought that blue eyes are rather common(if not just typical) amongst Slavs, from my personal observations I think that Green-eyes are rather rare amongst Poles/Slavs:confused:.

And you were right. Blue eyes reach about 50% frequency among Poles. Green eyes are rare, and come always second or thrid in every Euro population. However, the relative frequencies are highest among Slavs and Balts according to my literature. Then come the Irish.

Green eyes reach 20% frequency among the Poles - thats very high.


No not many people in Baltic countrys have green eyes.

Well I've got a study by Julian Talko-Hryncewicz on several hundred Letts and Lithuanians, printed in 1912, in Imperial Russia. They blatantly have the highest green eye frequency (over 20%), along with Poles.

Look, I do not want to undermine your image of Latvia as the "Nordic Heartland". Same study states that Balts are visibly more blonde and fair than Slavs. But, I'd be grateful if you could list me any credible source on Baltic eye pigmentation.

This peculiar Baltic combination - (almost) Scandinavian-like hair and skin colour means combined with somewhat darker eyes was also noted by Coon:


The eye color of the Letts as a whole is predominantly light, with pure blues and grays totalling one-third, and predominantly light shades reaching between 57 per cent and 59 per cent; pure brown eyes arc very rare, but. darkmixed eyes are not uncommon. On the whole, the hair color tends to be proportionately lighter than eve color.

1. Pure blues (15-16) reach 25%, and together with pur grays grays (13-14 on the Martin's scale) they total 33.3%

2. Total light eyes = 57-59%

3. Therefore, Blue-mixed and Light Green (10-12 on the same scale) = 57/59% - 33.3% = 24-26%

Out of the remainin 15% - most are dark green and hazel (7-9 on the Martin's scale).


This means that green eyes (excluding hazel) reach a frequency of approx 19-20% among Letts.

P.S.

Note that Balts have quite lesser freqs of brown eyes than Slavs.

[Beorn]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b7/Westernparadigm_light_eye_color_color_map.jpg/400px-Westernparadigm_light_eye_color_color_map.jpg

[Jarl]

Coon on Lithuanians:


The vast majority of Lithuanians have mixed eyes; only 10 per cent have pure light irises (Martin #15-16), as compared to 25 per cent for Letts; at the same time pure brown eyes number but 3 per cent. On the whole, therefore, one cannot say of the Lithuanians, as of the Finns, Esths, Livs, and Letts. that they are as blond as Scandinavians, but they are still predominantly light. There are probably regional variations of which our present data give us little positive indication.

So:

1. Not many pale blue eyes (15-16), but not many brown eyes (1-4)either - majority fall in-between. That obviously means more green eyes. Whether hazel (7), dark green (8-9), or light green (10-12).

2. Lighter than Poles, darker than Letts - which seems a natural consequence of the general South-to-North European pigmentation gradient.


By the way, Coon also relied on Julian Talko-Hryncewicz study ;)

[Äike]

Green is the rarest eye color in the world and is most common in Northern-Europe, but still rare there. I have seen 6 Estonians(2 being pure Estonians) during my lifetime with green eyes. 0 Estonians with brown eyes. Latvia shouldn't be any different.

There's also a saying here, I don't know if it's very popular, it sounds like this: "If the person doesn't have blue/gray eyes, then he/she isn't Estonian."

[Jarl]

Green is the rarest eye color in the world and is most common in Northern-Europe, but still rare there. I have seen 6 Estonians(2 being pure Estonians) during my lifetime with green eyes. 0 Estonians with brown eyes. Latvia shouldn't be any different.

There's also a saying here, I don't know if it's very popular, it sounds like this: "If the person doesn't have blue/gray eyes, then he/she isn't Estonian."

Well, Scandinavia and Baltic-Finnic populations have the highes blue-eye frequency. That's natural. Isolation, small population size and hunter-gatherer lifstyle (in case of Finnics) promote drift and endogamy. However light-mixed eyes are not uncommon either. And than includes light gray-green or blue-green, and blue/gray with brown patches.

As for green eyes - here we have a gradation. Beginning from hazel (or brown-green) at 7th degree on the Martin's scale, we go into green-proper. Dark green eyes (usually with small brown elements or aureolas) are usually associated with 8th and 9th degree. Then, 10-to-12, we've got light-mixed eyes. Grey-green, light blue-green, and blue/grey with brown/pigmented elements.


P.S.

One other thing. There should be a difference between Finnics and Balts, particularly Lithuanians. Even in spite of the historical assimilation of Finnic Livs by the Letts, in Livonia. All modern living Balts - are Eastern Balts, who until late Antiquity, or early Middle Ages, inhabited areas on the Upper Nemen, Dnieper and Dvina rivers, alongisde with their more Southerly, Slavic neighbours (with whom they mixed quite often, particularly during the Roman Period and early Middle Ages). However, the West Balts, or the Old Prussians, were by all likelihood, a very fair nation.


But I oversimplified it a bit. Not all 9-to-12 shades are green. Some are blue-mixed.

[Inese]

Well I've got a study by Julian Talko-Hryncewicz on several hundred Letts and Lithuanians, printed in 1912, in Imperial Russia. They blatantly have the highest green eye frequency (over 20%), along with Poles.

Look, I do not want to undermine your image of Latvia as the "Nordic Heartland". Same study states that Balts are visibly more blonde and fair than Slavs. But, I'd be grateful if you could list me any credible source on Baltic eye pigmentation.
Hello. :rolleyes: I have no study about green eyes in Latvia but i was living in my country for most time of my life and i can tell you that i never knew much people with green eyes ----- never 20%!! :rolleyes2: Your old study who is 100 years old is wrong that is what i can tell you very sure okay?? A study is a study and living there is very more meaningful. Most people have shades of blue eyes or a little mixed, but my opinion is that green eyes have not more than 2-3% of Latvians!!

And with green eyes i understand this
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/4416459-lg.jpg


This means that green eyes (excluding hazel) reach a frequency of approx 19-20% among Letts.[/b]
Never!! Visit Latvia and look yourself if you dont trust me. Or listen to Karl!!


Green is the rarest eye color in the world and is most common in Northern-Europe, but still rare there. I have seen 6 Estonians(2 being pure Estonians) during my lifetime with green eyes. 0 Estonians with brown eyes. Latvia shouldn't be any different.
Yes total right and i have not seen more Latvians with green eyes like Karl in Estonian people. Maximum 10 people.

[Laudanum]

And with green eyes i understand this
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/4416459-lg.jpg


Wow, those are very dark green eyes! Almost brown.:p

[Inese]

No they are green for me!! :) But you are right when you add more melanin they will be brown!! Melanin is always bad it makes peoples eyes and skin swarthy. But okay some like it..... :rolleyes: ^_^

Other green eyes

http://gamesnet.vo.llnwd.net/o1/gamestar/objects/392889_main.jpg

[Laudanum]

Well, my eyes don't look like that at all.:P
They look a bit like this, but with a bit very light green in them. (sorry for the stupid picture:D)

http://mirror-uk-rb1.gallery.hd.org/_exhibits/people/eyes-green-grey-female-1-AJHD.jpg

[Jarl]

Hello. :rolleyes: I have no study about green eyes in Latvia but i was living in my country for most time of my life and i can tell you that i never knew much people with green eyes ----- never 20%!! :rolleyes2: Your old study who is 100 years old is wrong that is what i can tell you very sure okay?? A study is a study and living there is very more meaningful. Most people have shades of blue eyes or a little mixed, but my opinion is that green eyes have not more than 2-3% of Latvians!!

And with green eyes i understand this
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/4416459-lg.jpg

Well, that's something like hazel, or dark green. That would be probably 7 on the Martin's scale. However many light-mixed (10-12) or dark-mixed (8-9) eyes have green shades.

Perhpas 20% is too high. From what I can gather Letts got:

1. Pure blues (15-16) reach 25%, and together with pure grays (13-14 on the Martin's scale) they total 33.3%

2. However, total light eyes equal 57-59%. Now, this category apart from pure blue and pure grey eyes, encompasses also all shades of light-mixed eyes, that is green-grey/blue and brown-grey/blue.

3. Together, these light-mixed shades equal (57/59% - 33.3%) = 24-26%

Now, most of these 26% are mixed-blues, but some proportion should be green-grey/blue. If we take approx one third of that number as our pale greens we will get about 9%. As for the remaining 15 % - these are dark eyes. Out of these 15% - some are dark green and hazel (7-9 on the Martin's scale), but some are brown. If we take one third again, and assume its our dark green frequency, we will get 5%. Add it up with the 9% you get about 14%.

Look, definitely dark green eyes, like on the pic you posted, do not account for more than 5%. But together with other light-mixed green shades, the frequency has to be well over 10%, perhaps approaching 20%.



Never!! Visit Latvia and look yourself if you dont trust me. Or listen to Karl!! What Karl says is right!! I have not seen more Latvians with green eyes like Karl in Estonian people. Maximum 10 people.

First of all, Karl, was talking about Estonia, which is different, speaks a different language, and's got a different history (dating back to 3000 BC). You can't lump Latvia and Finnic countries into same category, coz they are clearly not the same. Not just geographically or linguistically. Besides, what you take for green is clearly the dark green, hazel shade - most likely 7th on the Martin's scale. That shade is indeed quite rare in Northern Europe, but by no means it accounts for all shades of green.

While I agree, that particular hazel, or dark green shade can reach 3-5% in various North Euro populations, there are still many other light green shades which fall in the dark-mixed (8-9) and light-mixed category (Martin's 10-12), and by most people would still considered some sort of "green", whether light-green, blue-green or grey-green.

[Freomæg]

Melanin is always bad it makes peoples eyes and skin swarthy. But okay some like it..... :rolleyes: ^_^
I think we should just exterminate any European who has melanin. :rolleyes:

[Jägerstaffel]

I've got green eyes.

I don't know if I'm 'Nordic' or not though. I thought green eyes were most usually predominant in the British Isles and celtic communities.

[Laudanum]

I've read green eyes can be Celtic and Germanic.:)

[Jägerstaffel]

It's probably true. I don't know. I don't see many green eyes in people really.

I see blue eyes much more often.

[Beorn]

The thing with green eyes is how to define it.

You have people who will say only the purest green is green, and others will consider any colour in-between.


<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-Rafnsson_44-0"></sup>Among White Americans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Americans), green eyes are most common among those of Celtic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts) and Germanic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples) ancestry, about 16 percent <sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-45">[46] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_color#cite_note-45)</sup> . It can also be found in parts of West Asia, South Asia, and North Africa. This eye color is the least common found among humans, with the exceptions of rare eye mutations, that can create black, red, and other eye colors.
Wikipedia also went on to show this photo of a green eye.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/GreenEye.jpg

Which to me is blue. That is my daughters eye colour, and I classify her as having blue eyes.

EDIT: Just checked. Hers are ever so slightly darker in hue.

[Jägerstaffel]

That doesn't look blue to me.


What colour do you see in this?


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=683&d=1234826541

[Freomæg]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=683&d=1234826541
I'd call that mixed blue and hazel.

[Sarmata]

That doesn't look blue to me.


What colour do you see in this?


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=683&d=1234826541

It's rather blue-mixed, I read once that such "brown" area around pupil means that some of ancestors(parents) had brown eyes

[Tabiti]

My eyes often appear as green, but after I made a computer photo for iris diagnostic (kind of alternative diagnostic) they appeared to be just light blue with yellow around the pupil (father is brown eyed). So, I don't know if that is still considered as "green" genetically, but guess that is the case with 90% of the green eyed people. I've never seen someone with pure green eyes.

[Jarl]

I think we should just exterminate any European who has melanin. :rolleyes:

Yeah! Cast them all into a flaming pit. Goddamn swarthies!


I've read green eyes can be Celtic and Germanic.:)

Any North Euro can have green eyes (just like brown). Particularly green-grey or green-blue. However, they seem to be most common among Poles and Lithuanians (about 20% and over).


That doesn't look blue to me.

It's definitely light-mixed, but not pure blue (16-15) nor pure grey (14-13). Looks like grey-green. Most likely 10 or 11 on the Martin's scale. You basically get a light, grey or teal-like iris with small pigmented aureola. From distance the colours blend and the eye appears light green.

[Tabiti]

Yeah! Cast them all into a flaming pit. Goddamn swarthies!




Long live the true Aryans - the Albinos!
http://wearestjohns.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/albino10.jpg

[Vargtand]

The thing with green eyes is how to define it.

You have people who will say only the purest green is green, and others will consider any colour in-between.


Wikipedia also went on to show this photo of a green eye.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/GreenEye.jpg

Which to me is blue. That is my daughters eye colour, and I classify her as having blue eyes.

EDIT: Just checked. Hers are ever so slightly darker in hue.

If you call that blue what do you call this?

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2211&stc=1&d=1247435692

[Tabiti]

"Dark gray"? :D

[Vargtand]

"Dark gray"? :D

Hehe, maybe, there is some blue and green in there as well, but yeah I got very dark eyes. People are always surprised I don't have brown eyes. According to my mother when I was young they were pitch black.

[Jägerstaffel]

It's rather blue-mixed, I read once that such "brown" area around pupil means that some of ancestors(parents) had brown eyes

I don't know. It would have to be way back in my genes as most of my family has blue eyes.

I think the ring is orange and not brown anyways, but apparently colours are subjective! :)

[Beorn]

colours are subjective! :)

They bloody well are, I tell you! :D

[Zankapfel]

Green eyes are more "eastern" as a whole, imo.
On the other hand, 90% of the so called green eyes are just mixed types with blue, gray, yellow or hazel shades.

Yes indeed.

http://imgs.icepic.de/s-augen.jpg

^ Green eyes by yours truely.
Had never heard green eyes are Nordic btw.

[jerney]

I've always thought my brother's eyes were pretty non-mixed green.

http://i29.tinypic.com/2ut6igy.jpg

[Jarl]

I've always thought my brother's eyes were pretty non-mixed green.

http://i29.tinypic.com/2ut6igy.jpg

I do not think there is anything in the world like "non-mixed" green eyes or pure green eyes. In fact, I am certain of it as there is no "green" pigment human eye can produce. The only one which it can takes on all shades of yellow and brown.

I bet if you took a nice, high-resulotion, close-up pic of your brother's eyes, (like that by Vargtand or Jägerzen) we would surely notice a yellow or brown pigment.


If you call that blue what do you call this?

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2211&stc=1&d=1247435692

I'd stick to what Tabiti said. There are traces of light brown pigment, radiating from the pupil and the whole of iris appears dark grey. So I'd stick to dark-mixed, which is 8-9 on the Martin's scale. Most likely 9, as you can clearly see the grey-blue iris, while at 8th degree you usually get dark green eyes.

[Vargtand]

I do not think there is anything in the world like "non-mixed" green eyes or pure green eyes. In fact, I am certain of it as there is no "green" pigment human eye can produce. The only one which it can takes on all shades of yellow and brown.

I bet if you took a nice, high-resulotion, close-up pic of your brother's eyes, (like that by Vargtand or Jägerzen) we would surely notice a yellow or brown pigment.



I'd stick to what Tabiti said. There are traces of light brown pigment, radiating from the pupil and the whole of iris appears dark grey. So I'd stick to dark-mixed, which is 8-9 on the Martin's scale. Most likely 9, as you can clearly see the grey-blue iris, while at 8th degree you usually get dark green eyes.

Cool, though what you see as brown I see usually in white light not light from a light bulb (which is yellow) I see to be closer to green then brown, as I have yet to have anyone who has seen my eyes in real say there is brown in them:P but oh well I hate cameras they never get the colours right.

I wonder if dark grey is rare though and where that belongs.

[Jarl]

Cool, though what you see as brown I see usually in white light not light from a light bulb (which is yellow) I see to be closer to green then brown, as I have yet to have anyone who has seen my eyes in real say there is brown in them:P but oh well I hate cameras they never get the colours right.

I wonder if dark grey is rare though and where that belongs.

:) It might be yellow, not brown. And because its little, it appeares somewhat green on the blue background. I have not seen such eyes among Slavs. However, I've got a friend who is Welsh and his eyes are very similar. They are relatively dark, and its really difficult to say whether they are green or grey-blue.

[Absinthe]

I haven't really thought about it. But I have met a lot of Greeks, and quite a few Turks from the shores as well, with green eyes. :p

My color, that mixture of light brown/hazel/green, is probably the second most common color in Greece. Every second person I know has that.

So to answer, I don't think it's a Northern trait. Most likely a Balkan trait. :)

[Jarl]

Perhaps brown-green or hazel, or dark-green. However, I doubt 50% of Greeks have that sort of light green eyes:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/GreenEye.jpg


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=683&d=1234826541

Coon wrote:


Over 65 percent of Greeks have pure brown eyes, and most of these are dark brown: pure lights are sporadic, but there is a 15 per cent incidence of light-mixed iris forms.

65% - pure brown, most of these dark brown

15% - light mixed (like the light green eyes above), which leaves us with approx...

20% - dark-mixed (green-brown, hazel, dark green, blue-brown etc)

[Absinthe]

Perhaps brown-green or hazel, or dark-green. However, I doubt 50% of Greeks have that sort of light green eyes:





Coon wrote:



65% - pure brown, most of these dark brown

15% - light mixed (like the light green eyes above), which leaves us with approx...

20% - dark-mixed (green-brown, hazel, dark green etc)

:rolleyes2:

I said


My color, that mixture of light brown/hazel/green

Don't misquote me. What does that have to do with the light green/blue eyes you posted? :rolleyes2:

P.S. Coon has not visited Greece lately. :rolleyes2:

[Jarl]

Don't misquote me. What does that have to do with the light green/blue eyes you posted? :rolleyes2:

I did not misquote you. You said you've got hazel eyes, and I said that that's most likely the prevalent "green" shade among the Greeks. As for the light green eyes I posted - it means that overall, green eyes are not necessarily a Balkan thing.

As for Coon (of whom Im not the greates fan anyway), you should argue with him and the autors of the series he relied on. I simply chose to invoke some stats here. I find it difficult to rely on "common sense" individual experience when whole population means are concerned.

[Absinthe]

I didn't say that green eyes are *necessarily* a balkan thing. I said that I have encountered it most frequently in Balkan ethnicities.

As for hazel, it is an intermediate of light brown and green, and I said that is really, really common in Greece. Which I can testify to, because I've lived here all my life. And Coon's studies from the 60s mean nothing to me, as I've been living here for the last 30 years and I know what I see around me.

[Jarl]

I didn't say that green eyes are *necessarily* a balkan thing. I said that I have encountered it most frequently in Balkan ethnicities.

As for hazel, it is an intermediate of light brown and green, and I said that is really, really common in Greece. Which I can testify to, because I've lived here all my life. And Coon's studies from the 60s mean nothing to me, as I've been living here for the last 30 years and I know what I see around me.

Like I said in the beginning, brown-green and hazel eyes seem to be pretty common throughout the Mediterranean. I do not know what series Coon relied on, however most Greeks I met seemed to have brown eyes rather than green. Definitely his data is not flawless, but I personally doubt the 50:50 brown-to-hazel/green ratio among Greeks. I reckon 15-20% would be the true statistic, with majority falling into the green-brown and hazel categories. If you do not have access to some anthro database, look it up on any Greek dating service.

Try this one:

http://eligiblegreeks.com/searchResults/Gr/Greek-Men-Singles.htm

:D

On the first page you've got about 6 Greeks with brown eyes versus one with hazel and one with green. And a few with blue - most likely of mixed Greek-American ancestry.

[Absinthe]

Oh, so by dating sites, and the number Greeks you've met in your life (how many, really?) you somehow have a better idea than me, right?

Have you ever visited Greece? Why are you so stubborn about it? Would you rather stick to net-nazi stereotypes than listen to someone coming from the source?

I didn't say it was 50/50, by the way. I said it is really common. How on earth did you estimate that 15-20%, by looking at dating sites? :rolleyes:

Yes, brown eyes are the most common, hazel/green/light mixed eyes are the second most common (I'd say 30-35%) and I would also roughly estimate a 15-20% with light eyes.

I am not one of those advocating racial purity or nordicness of Greeks or what not, but I don't swallow those "all greeks are swarthy" stereotypes either. Keep them in the States, please.


And a few with blue - most likely of mixed Greek-American ancestry.

You'd be surprised at how much more blue-eyed Greeks you would encounter in Greece, compared to your expectations. And they're not mixed with almighty Americans.

[Jarl]

Oh, so by dating sites, and the number Greeks you've met in your life (how many, really?) you somehow have a better idea than me, right?

Look, I just want to introduce some maths here, aaaaaight???


Have you ever visited Greece? Why are you so stubborn about it? Would you rather stick to net-nazi stereotypes than listen to someone coming from the source?

Yes. I visited it four times. And no - I do not want to stick to nazi stereotypes :)


I didn't say it was 50/50, by the way. I said it is really common. How on earth did you estimate that 15-20%, by looking at dating sites? :rolleyes:

No :) I done it like this:

1. I subtracted 65% from 100% - for the pure brown eyes

2. Then I subtracter 5% for the "sporadic" pure blue eyes

3. Then, the remaining 30%, hides our greens (all shades), but also other shades of blue-mixed eyes.



Yes, brown eyes are the most common, hazel/green/light mixed eyes are the second most common (I'd say 30-35%) and I would also roughly estimate a 15-20% with light eyes.

I am not one of those advocating racial purity or nordicness of Greeks or what not, but I don't swallow those "all greeks are swarthy" stereotypes either. Keep them in the States, please.

Whoa! Baby! :wink Where did I say "all Greeks are swarthy"??? You must have mistaken me for Inese :eek:


But lets see what I found in Greece. I conducted a search. Eligible Greek women, aged 28-55... ^^ ...and from Greece. Checked first 50 and I got:

32x browns/blacks

14x greens/hazels

4x blues


And that's still quite high! 28% greens in Greece.


P.S.

Btw... are you by any chance logged on that dating website, Absinthe??? :P

[Tabiti]

Green eyes could also be found in India, Pakistan, Afganistan...
A fact is that the most common eye color on the Balkans (and bigger part of Europe) are brown and hazel. Yes, I still know many people with different light mixed eyes in fact half of my relatives, but statistics always seem to claim something different from what we see.
BTW, being swarthy doesn't depend on your eye color - there are light eyed people with tan and black eyed people with quite fair skins.

[Vargtand]

Green eyes could also be found in India, Pakistan, Afganistan...
A fact is that the most common eye color on the Balkans (and bigger part of Europe) are brown and hazel. Yes, I still know many people with different light mixed eyes in fact half of my relatives, but statistics always seem to claim something different from what we see.
BTW, being swarthy doesn't depend on your eye color - there are light eyed people with tan and black eyed people with quite fair skins.

And then there are the mythical boxers walking about with their black eyes.

[Inese]

Perhpas 20% is too high. From what I can gather Letts got:

1. Pure blues (15-16) reach 25%, and together with pure grays (13-14 on the Martin's scale) they total 33.3%

2. However, total light eyes equal 57-59%. Now, this category apart from pure blue and pure grey eyes, encompasses also all shades of light-mixed eyes, that is green-grey/blue and brown-grey/blue.
I dont know that Coon man but most Latvians have blue eyes in bright or darker shade!! 25% blue eyed people in Latvia is too low and it does not matter what your Coon says! He is wrong okay? :coffee:


3. Together, these light-mixed shades equal (57/59% - 33.3%) = 24-26%

Now, most of these 26% are mixed-blues, but some proportion should be green-grey/blue. If we take approx one third of that number as our pale greens we will get about 9%. As for the remaining 15 % - these are dark eyes. Out of these 15% - some are dark green and hazel (7-9 on the Martin's scale), but some are brown. If we take one third again, and assume its our dark green frequency, we will get 5%. Add it up with the 9% you get about 14%. :lightbul: :dizzy::confused3:
What are you calculating and calculating about?? O.o A little addition hhere and a little subtraktion there!! You rely too hard on your book and mathematics you little bookworm!! :p Take a trip to Latvia ( Poland is not far away ) and look yourself ---- make a study and look 100 people in the eyes. But you must ask them before if they are not Russians okay? Make a study of 100 Latvian people in a city like Kuldiga and you see that your Coon is not right.

First of all, Karl, was talking about Estonia, which is different, speaks a different language, and's got a different history (dating back to 3000 BC). You can't lump Latvia and Finnic countries into same category, coz they are clearly not the same. Not just geographically or linguistically.
Oh super thank you for the lesson mister obvios do you think i do not know the history of my country?? :confused: Read what i write i said that i have made smiliar experience like Karl ---- he says he has not seen green eyes in Estonia often and i say i have the same experience made in Latvia!! But i made no link between the countrys.

Long live the true Aryans - the Albinos!
http://wearestjohns.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/albino10.jpg

A albino of African people --- not very fair , they are a other race! I mean too much melanin is not good but a very little bit have all people and only Albinos miss it. And sometimes European Albinos look better than African albinos or some Balkan people you know....

http://www.tribalmessenger.org/t-global/protests/images/europe/13-eur-bulgarian%20protestors.jpg ^_^

Some afghan people have green eyes also

http://www.labnol.org/wp/images/2007/06/green-eye-afghan-girl-national-geographic.jpg

[Tabiti]

A albino of African people --- not very fair , they are a other race! I mean too much melanin is not good but a very little bit have all people and only Albinos miss it. And sometimes European Albinos look better than African albinos or some Balkan people you know....
And some.. Germans:
http://www.esiweb.org/thegreatdebate/picturestory/Kottbuser%20Damm,%20Kreuzberg%20-%20flickr-artie.jpg

[Jarl]

I dont know that Coon man but most Latvians have blue eyes in bright or darker shade!! 25% blue eyed people in Latvia is too low and it does not matter what your Coon says!

Look you, German-Latvian woman, Coon said 25% Letts have the lightest shades of blue. With other darker blue and grey shades this amounts to 33.3%. Now if we add light-mixed eyes too, which apart from grey-green accounts for different shades of blue (with some pigment present) this raises to 57-59%.

Indeed. I agree. It seems quite low as these 57-59% are not only pure blue eyes. I will check the Talko-Hryncewicz study and make a comparison here, while you should do a survey on some Latvian dating service.


He is wrong okay? :coffee:

Okay, okay! He might be wrong. I never said he was correct. Shall I dig him up and hang him by the neck, like they did with Oliver Cromwell???


:lightbul: :dizzy::confused3:
What are you calculating and calculating about??

Oh, you do not want to know that, baby!


O.o A little addition hhere and a little subtraktion there!!

...and we've got our perfect woman! :lightbul:


You rely too hard on your book and mathematics you little bookworm!! :p

Not that little, baby! hehe... :cool:


Take a trip to Latvia ( Poland is not far away )

Is that an invitation??? :eek: eek!


and look yourself ----

Oh, sure I will! :thumbs up


make a study and look 100 people in the eyes. But you must ask them before if they are not Russians okay?

I assume, those who've got brown eyes, but say "no" are krypto-Russians... ;)


Make a study of 100 Latvian people in a city like Kuldiga and you see that your Coon is not right.

Oh super thank you for the lesson mister obvios...

My pleasure... as always! :P Come and get some more if you want to! Latvia is not so far away from Poland, and Germany is even closer! :lightbul:





....have I really written this post??? :dizzy:

[Beorn]

Make a study of 100 Latvian people in a city like Kuldiga and you see that your Coon is not right.

I'd say Coon is correct.

I have met a few Latvians in my time, and have had the pleasure of being able to look a few in the eyes for periods of time ranging from several minutes to several seconds.

I'd say the conclusions Tabiti and Jarl have been stating hold true.

[Allenson]

This is a good eye color chart:

http://discovermagazine.com/2007/mar/eye-color-explained/eyes-400.jpg

In my opinion, the middle eye and the middle-left eye are both green (not hazel!). I swear, the middle-left eye could be my own.

Anyway, as far as geographic frequency, I've always been under the impression that truly green eyes are more common in northwestern Europe and are the legacy of the paleolithic settlers of this genetic cul-de-sac.....

I'm not positive on that one though as there doesn't seem to be much info on the geography of green eyes. Just "light", "light-mixed" and "dark".

[Tabiti]

^ None is "pure green", imo, just blue and hazel mixed.

[Útrám]

I believe it was Lundman who stated that the majority of people belonging to the Nordid type(in the narrow sense) are of light pigmentation, but can take darker forms in solution with other types as well as independently.

James Stewart is a good example.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1403/1212422358_c3aec971b7.jpg

[Tabiti]

Aren't his lips too full for Nordid?

[Útrám]

Aren't his lips too full for Nordid?

Not necessarily, thin lips is more of an UP/Cromagnoid trait.

A young Max Von Syndow

http://www.mundofree.com/cine_nordico/Max_von_Sydow-foto.jpg

French actor Cyril Raffaelli.

http://www.cinemovies.fr/images/data/photos/17716/G17716_228453861.jpg

[Loyalist]

Aren't his lips too full for Nordid?

Thought it's purely from my own observations, I've noticed many Dutch seem to have thick lips. I've noticed similar traits among Scandinavians as well, particularly Swedes.

[Allenson]

^ None is "pure green", imo, just blue and hazel mixed.

Quite honestly, pure green eyes do not exist. Not green as in the color of grass or a leaf.

At the least, I've never seen any pure green eyes.

Any picture found online as such is probably photoshopped or coloured contacts.

These are "green" eyes:

http://k41.pbase.com/v3/50/48650/2/50895966.Speakers20051009IMG_35633.jpg


These are likely fake:

http://gnet.gs/blogger/green-eyes.png

[Absinthe]

^ They are contacts, I have seen that color worn by a girl I know. It's called "emerald green" or something ;)

[Psychonaut]

I've noticed many Dutch seem to have thick lips.

I've noticed this too. For many of the Dutch Americans I've met, their lips were so thick that it almost appears as if they display prognathism, but it's not an alveolar feature, just the lips.

[Inese]

Indeed. I agree. It seems quite low as these 57-59% are not only pure blue eyes. I will check the Talko-Hryncewicz study and make a comparison here, while you should do a survey on some Latvian dating service.
It is not funny why do you try to push other views into ridiculness?? :rolleyes2: I say that the informations of your Coon are not right and very old. Make your own study will you?? Or have you fear that you have to agree with me after the study


Okay, okay! He might be wrong. I never said he was correct. Shall I dig him up and hang him by the neck, like they did with Oliver Cromwell???
Hm i like i do with you when you go on talk to me like a idiot?? :mad:


Oh, you do not want to know that, baby!

...and we've got our perfect woman! :lightbul:

Not that little, baby! hehe... :cool:

Is that an invitation??? :eek: eek!

Oh, sure I will! :thumbs up
You clown....:thumb down


I'd say Coon is correct.

I have met a few Latvians in my time, and have had the pleasure of being able to look a few in the eyes for periods of time ranging from several minutes to several seconds.

I'd say the conclusions Tabiti and Jarl have been stating hold true.
You only say it to hurt me and a " few Latvians " abroad who could be Russian Latvians also are not a basis for conficting observations!!

[Beorn]

You only say it to hurt me and a " few Latvians " abroad who could be Russian Latvians also are not a basis for conficting observations!!

You are a very aggressive paranoid individual.

I say such things because they are true and because they counter your opinion. This is a discussion board afterall.

[Inese]

I say such things because they are true and because they counter your opinion. This is a discussion board afterall.
Hm okay you really say a " few Latvians" with unknown ethnic origin ( real Latvian or Russian Latvian ) abroad are for you basis for conficting observations??? I am young but i learned the difference between scientific research methods and unscientific and unsystematic everyday life observations you know??....:embarrassed But what do i know i am only 18 and blonde , right?? :mad:

[Beorn]

( real Latvian or Russian Latvian )

The Latvians were of you're lot.


But what do i know i am only 18 and blonde , right?? :mad:

Correct, although I don't know why you mention being blonde. What does that matter?

[Vulpix]

Enough already.

[Jarl]

Anyway, as far as geographic frequency, I've always been under the impression that truly green eyes are more common in northwestern Europe and are the legacy of the paleolithic settlers of this genetic cul-de-sac.....

I'm not positive on that one though as there doesn't seem to be much info on the geography of green eyes. Just "light", "light-mixed" and "dark".

That's an interesting thing. Initially, I suspected this to be more of a continental thing. However, it seems to be not. Here is a very good entry, from the Gene Expression blog:

http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/12/nlsy-blogging-eye-and-hair-color-of.php

It gives you hair and eye colour frequencies for European-Americans: Germans, French, Irish and Italians.

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/8427/87432757.png

First thing you notice is that Italians and French have more hazel than green eyes, while in case of Germans and English the ratio is more less even. The Irish have more light green shades than hazel, and also the highest frequency of green eyes out of them all.

The difference between the English and the Germans is slight. But the Celts do seem to have slightly higher frequency of green eyes. Overall, indeed - green eyes seem to be more frequent on the British Isles. This is interesting, as that tendency does not seem to hold truth for Scandinavia. Here is Coon:

Sweden:


Retzius and Fürst found 67 per cent of light eyes, 29 per cent of mixed, and 4 per cent of dark. In the first category were presumably included light eyes with a slight spotting, as in the Martin numbers 13 and 14. The Lundborg and Linders study, made with a different observational scheme, raised the first category to 87 per cent, and the third to 5 per cent. In any case, there can be no doubt that the eye colors of the Swedish people are predominantly light mixed and light, as in Norway; and that the lightest eyes in the kingdom are found in western Sweden, and the darkest in the north.

This means 67-87% blue and 8-29% mixed eyes (most of them green) for Sweden... Now, Norway:


In eye color as in hair color, the native farmers art lighter than the recruits, with 86.5 per cent of light and light-mixed eyes (Martin #12-16) as against 76 per cent. Of the recruits, 38.5 per cent have pure light eyes (Martin #15-16). This is by no means the Lightest-eyed region in Norway. This material shows us what had been previously suspected, that the Nordic eye must be considered light mixed in typical form, rather than pure light. According to Bryn the commonest form of unpigmented eye found in this region is a light blue one, with large meshes and iris fibers set quite far apart, so that the iris pattern appears open.

In pigmentation, these brachycephals are slightly less fair than the few dolichocephals found in the same region, but they are still predom inantly blond. Eighty-one per cent have blue eyes, and only 3 per cent brown. Most of the hair is either light or medium brown; only 30 per cent have dark brown hair, and less than 2 per cent black.

The pigmentation is exclusively light or light mixed, for in Mme. Schreiner's sample which included onefourth of the total population, not a single brown eye nor head of black or dark brown hair was discovered. Among the men, 90 per cent of pure and nearly pure light eyes were found, with but 3 per cent dark mixed; among the women, as is frequently the case elsewhere, the light-eyed category is smaller than that of the men by a full 10 per cent.

The modern population of the Trřndelag region is notable in that it exceeds the rest of Norway in a number of important features. One is in stature, for the tallest provincial means are found here; another is in the height of the cranial vault, which reaches a mean of 128 mm.; a third is in the percentage of blue eyes, for this is the lightest-eyed region of Norway. The hair, by contrast, is by no means the blondest, but there are significant deficiencies of ash-blond, and excesses of golden and of brown.

So 76-86% blue eyes (although Martin's 12 is considered light-mixed). The initial statement is also interesting as it reveales that majority of Nordic populations have, nonetheless, some pigment present in the eye (whether some slight spotting or aureolas). This leaves little space for green eyes.

[Vulpix]

Nice, but this kind of study is pretty much meaningless when not presented with a clear working definition of the different eye colors. How/by whom was eye color assessed? What separation is there between light blue and blue? etc




http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/12/nlsy-blogging-eye-and-hair-color-of.php

It gives you hair and eye colour frequencies for European-Americans: Germans, French, Irish and Italians.

http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p413/jmalloynyc/EYECO.png

[Jarl]

Nice, but this kind of study is pretty much meaningless when not presented with a clear working definition of the different eye colors. How/by whom was eye color assessed? What separation is there between light blue and blue? etc

I agree that there is an issue in reconciling that type of studies with studies conducted using Martin's scale. However not entirely. Light blue, blue and grey have to be Martin's 13-16. These are considered "light eyes" - with very little or no spotting present. Browns have to be Martin's 1-6. Hazel is most likely 7.

The only problem is when we want to establish the frequency of green eyes, which hide in the "mixed" category - Martin's 7-12. Not all mixed eyes are green. Particularly, the "light-mixed" category (Martin's 10-12), includes some grey/blue mixes with brown pigment present that do not appear green. In the study above, these were most likely lumped together with others into the "blue" or "grey" category.

In any case, the basic tendencies should hold truth - Germans, Irish and English should have more green eyes (and green + hazel together) than French and Italian.

[Loki]

Hazel is most likely 7.


What is hazel though? Not just a fancy name for a shade of brown? :confused: I personally am colourblind though, so perhaps I understand these colours less well.

[Vulpix]

Alrighty, maybe so, but even then, who used the Martin's scale ;)? Imperfections in the assessment of eye color need to be taken into account, and in addition to the matter of the specific scale used, the "how/by whom" is not by any means a secondary issue in evaluating the degree of "imperfections". Failing to mention anything in that regard robs this study of credibility straight away.


I agree that there is an issue in reconciling that type of studies with studies conducted using Martin's scale. However not entirely. Light blue, blue and grey have to be Martin's 13-16. These are considered "light eyes" - with very little or no spotting present. Browns have to be Martin's 1-6. Hazel is most likely 7.

The only problem is when we want to establish the frequency of green eyes, which hide in the "mixed" category - Martin's 7-12. Not all mixed eyes are green. Particularly, the "light-mixed" category (Martin's 10-12), includes some grey/blue mixes with brown pigment present that do not appear green. In the study above, these were most likely lumped together with others into the "blue" or "grey" category.

[Jarl]

What is hazel though? Not just a fancy name for a shade of brown? :confused: I personally am colourblind though, so perhaps I understand these colours less well.

I understand hazel as all variants of brown eyes where the brown pigment fails to cover the whole eye and/or is present along with the lighter, yellowish one, which gives the eye a greenish appearance, like here:

http://images1.makefive.com/images/200919/9390ea643108722c.jpg
You get brown pigment concentrated aroung the pupil, or at the rim of the iris, and then, as you go across the iris, it gets more sparse or lighter revealing the "blue" collagen texture beneath the pigment itself.

[Vulpix]

I understand hazel as all variants of brown eyes where the brown pigment present along with the lighter, yellowish one, which gives the eye a greenis appearance, like here:

http://images1.makefive.com/images/200919/9390ea643108722c.jpg
You get brown pigment concentrated aroung the pupil, or at the rim of the iris, and then, as you go across the iris, it gets lighter revealing the "blue" collagen texture beneath the pigment itself.


The point is, as with hair color, we all have different definitions.

[Jarl]

The point is, as with hair color, we all have different definitions.


Indeed. That's why its much safer to use a scale. That's why I said the study should be treated with care as far as all mixed-eyes, like hazel or various greens, are concerned. That's why I suspect the study had to lump some of the mixed-eyes (Martin's 7-12) into the blue and grey categories, while classified the rest as hazel and green. Now, it is not possible to read out the proportions. However do we really need them? Personally, I was only interested in the basic trends. From the study, it is obvious that North Euros have more blue eyes, while South Euros more brown eyes. As for the green and hazel eyes (let's lump them together to make to make it safer and less subjective), Northern Euros tend to have more of them and also in lighter shades...

However, as far as blue/grey and brown eyes are concerned. These can be almost certainly identified with Martin's 13-16 (plus perhaps some border shades, like Martin's 11 or 12) and 1-6.


P.S.

Everybody has a definition - but that does not mean there isn't a real, objective physical world beyond us. Personally, I am a scientific realist... and it appears to me that majority of people consider "hazel" to be light brown or yellow-brown. This means that a "hazel eye" has to have some brown pigment present. I presume, that was also the chief guideline for the authors of the study. They could have classified an odd green eye as hazel, but overall their "hazel" should contain mostly eyes with brown pigment present in the iris.

[Loki]

I understand hazel as all variants of brown eyes where the brown pigment fails to cover the whole eye and/or is present along with the lighter, yellowish one, which gives the eye a greenish appearance, like here:

http://images1.makefive.com/images/200919/9390ea643108722c.jpg
You get brown pigment concentrated aroung the pupil, or at the rim of the iris, and then, as you go across the iris, it gets more sparse or lighter revealing the "blue" collagen texture beneath the pigment itself.

This pretty much describes my eyes. I have brown pigment concentrated around the pupil, and green on the outside, even some blue can be observed. My eyes are very similar to this picture.

[Jarl]

I do not have an access to the scale itself, but I will look into my textbooks and try to establish which "mixed" shades on the Martin's scale (that is 7-12) denote "green" eyes and which do not.

[Vulpix]

I do not have an access to the scale itself, but I will look into my textbooks and try to establish which "mixed" shades on the Martin's scale (that is 7-12) denote "green" eyes and which do not.

Could you maybe provide us with a scan?

[Jarl]

Could you maybe provide us with a scan?

Unfortunately I do not have a scanner here, now, but I will re-write what I found. In old Polish academic anthro textbook "Zarys Antropologii" by Jasicki, Sikora, Panek and Stołyhwo (1962), I got:

1-6 denotes all shades of brown eyes,

7-8 denotes "greenish" eyes, it says brown-green (like Loki's?) in brackets,

9-10 denotes dark grey* (like Vargtand's)

11-12 denotes light grey*

13-15 denotes blue*

16 denotes light blue


* These are the "mixed" eyes, so I assume by "light grey" or "blue" they meant the predominant shade present. For instance, according to Coon, shades 13-14 have some light spotting present. I'd assume that spotting is even stronger in case of 11-12.


Then, there is the scale from the goold, old hardcore typologist I. Michalski, in his "Struktura antropologiczna Polski" (1949). It basically says:

1-6 brown

7 green

8 blue-green

10 grey-green

12 grey


To sum up, it appears to me, that all shades of green eyes fall within Martin's 7-10 (perhaps also 11), with hazel or dark green (with brown present) being 7-8, while light green or grey-green (without any visible brown pigment) 9-10.

[Vulpix]

So the difference between "light blue" and "blue" would be spotting present in "light blue"?

[Jarl]

So the difference between "light blue" and "blue" would be spotting present in "light blue"?

I think spotting starts to be present from shade 14, down. Two topmost shades of blue (15-16) are spotless. They differ only in intensity. Then spots appear. Initially as very small light, yellow spots (13-14) and then bigger patches and aureolas (9-12). Overall, shades 13-16 are, by common sense, considered "blue". Shade 12 seems to be "pure grey". The light grey-green eyes like those posted by Jagerzen would be most likely 10 or perhaps 11. While the dark grey-green, like those of Vargtand, would have to be 9 or 10. Hazel or dark green (with some brown present), like those of Loki or those posted by me would be 7 or 8.

[Vulpix]

I think spotting starts to be present from shade 14, down. Two topmost shades of blue (15-16) are spotless. They differ only in intensity. Then spots appear. Initially as very light, yellow spots (13-14) and then bigger patches and aureolas (9-12). Overall, shades 13-16 are, by common sense, considered "blue". Shade 12 seems to be "pure grey". The light grey-green eyes like those posted by Jagerzen would be most likely 10 or perhaps 11. While the dark grey-green, like those of Vargtand, would have to be 9 or 10. Hazel or dark green, like those of Loki or those posted by me would be 7 or 8.

Oh right, I guess mine are 15 then :).

[Jarl]

Oh right, I guess mine are 15 then :).

Mine would have to be 10 or 11.

I think it becomes quite obvious that in publications which use Martin's scale, as a general rule of thumb, "mixed eye" frequency should be indicative of green eye freduency. In reality, the true green eye freq should be slightly lower as some shades (like 12 and perhaps also 11) appear more grey than green.

[Poltergeist]

They are not nordic, there are green eyes everwhere in Europe.

[Lysander]

The first question you have to ask yourself is what makes eyes Nordic?
The question is inherently stupid (note: I said the question, not you) as eyes can never be Nordic nor can any other part of the body.

Are my fingers Nordic? By the hammer of Thor, there is no such thing!
Some people, especially Nordicists, seem to have a strange ideal that all Nordics were blue eyed from the beginning and that it is somehow the natural state in the Nordic countries. Nothing could be further from the truth, just as with blonde hair; Scandinavia has never been fully blond and blue eyed, nature makes sure of that.
Sure, there are a lot of people with blue eyes in the Nordic countries and blue eyes contribute to the overall Nordic look. In Greece most people have brow or green eyes, I have clear blue eyes, does that make me less Greek?
Do brown eyes make you less Nordic?
No. They are just as natural in Scandinavia as they are in Greece, they are only less frequent just as blue eyes are less frequent here.

[Loki]

I have clear blue eyes, does that make me less Greek?


No, but you seem to think it makes you Nordic? (as per your profile)

[Laudanum]

They are not nordic, there are green eyes everwhere in Europe.

Blue eyes are seen all over Europe too. I was just wondering of people who are Nordic can have green eyes. My eyes aren't full green. They look blue with a bit of light green. The wierd thing is, both of my parents have blue eyes..

[Beorn]

The wierd thing is, both of my parents have blue eyes..

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1018

[Laudanum]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1018

Interesting link. But All of my grandparents also had blue eyes, so I still don't understand why my eyes are a bit green.

[Lysander]

No, but you seem to think it makes you Nordic? (as per your profile)

I wasn't quite sure what to write there, at first I hesitated about writing anything. Then I just wrote what I look like, when the tourist season starts people always mistake me for Scandinavian in Greece and when I respond in Greek they become stunned.

Now that I think about it maybe I shouldn't have written Nordic in ethnicity, I will remove it.

I don't want to be mistaken for Scandinavian :thumb001:.

[Jarl]

No. They are just as natural in Scandinavia as they are in Greece, they are only less frequent just as blue eyes are less frequent here.


If we are talking about the trends then definitely they are Nordic in that they are most abundant in the Northern populations. In this way they are most characteristic of Nordic populations as they have higher frequencies of blue eyes than any other nation. They depict an evolutionary trend. Blue eyes alone are also typical of other populations, so they are not exclusively Nordic.

Likewise, saying that green eyes are un-Nordic is incorrect. They are Nordic as their genes are still naturally present in the Nordic genepool, just like brown eyes gene. However, they are definitiely less (as in "less typical of") Nordic than blue eyes - as their frequency is much lower within the same genepool. Consequently they are much less representative. Also, they are more Irish, Polish or Lithuanian, than Nordic.


That's as far as trends go... now the question - what "makes" one Nordic? To me the answer is Nordic genepool.


Blue eyes are seen all over Europe too. I was just wondering of people who are Nordic can have green eyes. My eyes aren't full green. They look blue with a bit of light green. The wierd thing is, both of my parents have blue eyes..

That is possible. Eye colour inheritance does not always follow a simple two loci pattern, and often two bright-eyed parents have offspring with slightly darker eyes.

Obviously Nordic people can have brown and green eyes - and they are still 100% pure products of the Nordic genepool. They are biologically, genetically and phenotypically as Nordic as all the blonde blue eyed Halstatts. Genes work together. Whole genome, all the genes constitute a tightly interwoven network of interactions. Phenotype is the final product of ALL THE GENES in the organism. Even those that do not have any immediate, direct effect.

However, one may argue that such gree-eyed individuals are not as typical as blue-eyed ones etc. Saying that some are less Nordic is incorrect since they all are an integral part of the same evolving genepool. They are equally Nordic, but in a different way. Another, different genepool would not produce such combinations and such phenotypes.

Now the question is.... if you are a brown-eyed (and consequently not so typical in this particular aspect), yet pure Swede - are you less Nordic than your blue-eyed brother, born and bred from the same genepool or even from same parents? My answer would be no.

Every population is characterised by vast phenotypical variation - so being untypical in some aspects is perfectly normal. It is a natural course of action. In fact everybody is untypical in one way or another. Being untypical can't make you less of a member of the given population... as populations by definition should retain variability. Thats the whole point of evolution. So while we can say that single traits are more or less typical - they still cannot by any means degrade an individual to a second-class category. That would be a nonsense, an illusion - produced by a belief, or perhaps an egoistic wish, that evolution should normally produce uniform clones or "pure races" (one may add here: "of which I would like to be the purest exemplar")...

Lysander wrote about it nicely:

Some people, especially Nordicists, seem to have a strange ideal that all Nordics were blue eyed from the beginning and that it is somehow the natural state in the Nordic countries. Nothing could be further from the truth, just as with blonde hair; Scandinavia has never been fully blond and blue eyed, nature makes sure of that.

But the natural state is completely different and it's dictated by biology and nature of evolution. The belief or whish that it is, or it hould be, different stems from an illusion. From personal arbitrary beliefs and, perhaps also, aesthethic reasons.

[Laudanum]

Thank you, Jarl. Very good and interesting post.;)

[Jarl]

Some green eyes stats from the 1912 Talko-Hryncewicz study:

Poles (Kingdom of Poland) - 11.1%

Poles (Galicia) - 12.5%

Ukrainians - 15.2%

Podolians (mostly Ruthenians) - 19.1%

Ruthenian Highlanders (Galicia) - 22.5%

Belorussians - 32.7%

Lithuanians and Letts* - 36.8%


*Lithuanians constituted 88% of the series...



Having compared these results to two anthro surveys from 1940s and 2000s, two things which struck me most are:

1. that Hryncewicz must have classified a substantial chunk of Polish light green eyes under "grey". Particularly the lighter shades of green, without any brown pigment, that is Martin's 9-10, had to be classified as "grey". These shades amount to additional 7%, and should raise the average to 18-19%. It appears that Hryncewicz classified as "green" mostly Martin's 8 - which is by far the most common, slightly dark, shade shade of green eyes... This shade alone constitutes about 11-12% in Polish population.

2. As for the mixed brown-green, or hazel - Hryncewicz almost certainly classified most of them as "brown". This shade reaches a frequency of about 10% in Polish population. In his study "brown" eye frequency among Poles is over 20%, while the anthro surveys conducted after WWII indicated that pure brown shades constitute about 15%. This gap can be easily sealed with the aforementioned 10% mixed brown-green eyes.

If we take Martin's 7-10 as "green", then green eye freq among Poles should reach about 28-29%.

This is a good example of slight unreliablility of personal judgements. Also, from my personal surveys conducted on a large Polish dating website (about 20,000 members) it seems that most people classify hazel and mixed brown-green eyes (with predominance of brown like at Martin's 7) as "brown". On Polish dating website, self-declared green eye colour frequency is very close to 20%.


P.S.

Anyway, from the study it seems that Belorussians and Lithuanians have higher green eye frequency than Poles, which seems credible as they have less brown eyes at the same time and were generally noted to belong to a more fair type. Highest green eye frequency amogn Lithuanians seems to be also supported by Coon's data.

[Absinthe]

Some green eyes stats from the 1912 Talko-Hryncewicz study:

How credible do you think a study that was conducted a century ago is for today's standards?

[Radojica]

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/5407/okeer7.jpg (http://img161.imageshack.us/i/okeer7.jpg/)


These are my eyes and my mother, who is Serbian-Montenegrin has green and my father had had sky blue eyes... And according to a map i saw here, Serbs should not have green-blue eyes at all, while i met dozen of people with light eyes in Serbia...and Serbs are not Nordic :P

P.S. i ruined this thread :D

[Jarl]

How credible do you think a study that was conducted a century ago is for today's standards?

I think quite credible. His "blue eyes" mean for Poland is very close to the means in the 1930s and 1940-50s anthro surves, and my own surveys conducted on the internet. All oscillate close to 50%. Talko-Hryncewicz in each case analysed about 400 to 2000 individuals for each ethnic group. As I wrote, it appears to me that his "green eyes" criteria were rather strict (he most definitely classified the lightest shades as "grey", while almost certainly classyfing bul of brown-green as "brown"), however the trends seem to be in line with findings of other authors. Here is a bunch of conclusions:

Poles are more fair than Ukrainians, Belarussians are more fair than Poles, Lithuanians are more fair than Belarussians... this concerns not only skin tone, but also blondism and eye colour (Belarussians and Lithuanians have much more green or mixed-eyes than brown in comparison to Poles and Ukrainians). This trend has not just been noted by Talko-Hryncewicz, but also by many other Polish ethnographists (like Kopernicki) and anthropologists (like Czekanowski), even in the XIX century.

Lithuanians also appear to have highest green or mixed eye frequency from Coon's data. Pure brown eyes reach about 3% frequency in Lithuania, that is nearly 5 times lower than in Poland. Although majority has blue eyes (most likely somewhere in-between the Polish mean of 50% and Latvian mean of 59%), the rest has to be hazel and green.



http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/5407/okeer7.jpg (http://img161.imageshack.us/i/okeer7.jpg/)


These are my eyes and my mother, who is Serbian-Montenegrin has green and my father had had sky blue eyes... And according to a map i saw here, Serbs should not have green-blue eyes at all, while i met dozen of people with light eyes in Serbia...and Serbs are not Nordic :P

P.S. i ruined this thread :D


That's a very similar shade to mine. A light grey-green shade. What's more interesting, my mom's eyes are also light blue-grey, and my dad's green (but darker than mine). I believe it's Martin's 10 or 11. Hryncewicz would definitely classified them as grey, although they are still in the light-mixed category.

[Absinthe]

So you think that the aforementioned populations are exactly the same as they were 100 years ago? :p


and my own surveys conducted on the internet.

:blink: Eh........ :icon12:

[Jarl]

So you think that the aforementioned populations are exactly the same as they were 100 years ago? :p :blink: Eh........ :icon12:


No. Definitely the trends change, however 4 generations is not enough to have a major impact. Hryncewicz did not make any use of scales, limiting the value of his study. Particularly direct comparisons with findings of other authors are not possible. However, if you carefully compare the percentages to those from other sources (like Coon), you should see that the trends stay basically the same. The only difference is that Hryncewicz underestimated the green or mixed-eyes category, classifying the border shades as grey and brown.


However, that is because he used "common sense" instead of a set of glass eyeballs. When I conducted a search on a Polish dating website, I found that green eye freq. was approx. 20%. This is much lower than the total of 28-29% (data from the 50s) for all Martin's 7-10 shades in Poland. One may argue that it's due to real changes in the population, but for the reasons I mentioned before, I would rather put it down to the conflict between common sense observations and use of Martin scale. Particularly classyfing hazel and brown-green shades with preponderance of brown as simply "brown", seems to be the reason behind the discrepancy...

[lei.talk]

http://i26.tinypic.com/nv47d5.jpg

[Jarl]

That is really interesting... where does it come from?

[lei.talk]

a graduated assortment of human-eye photographs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_color)
would be ideal -

this is from a display-case of ocular protheses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocular_prosthesis).

[Jarl]

a graduated assortment of human-eye photographs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_color)
would be ideal -

this is from a display-case of ocular protheses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocular_prosthesis).

Right! It's still a good scale if one can link the more natural looking shades up. As for the human-eye photographs, definitely that would be the best option. So far we've got a few good green eye pics here. Perhaps I could resize them and link them up into a new, homemade scale.

[esaima]

I have seen 6 Estonians(2 being pure Estonians) during my lifetime with green eyes. 0 Estonians with brown eyes

Dear fellow-countryman, where have you lived?Or you never look into somebodys eyes?You have seen 0 Estonians with brown eyes?
I understand- we try imagine weselves as "aryan" and Scandinavian as possible, but it´´s ridiculous to claim that you claimed:)Of course, there are brown eyes among estonians.

We are generally of course a"light" nation, bu a bit less lighter than the Scandies and the Finns.There are not so much whithe-heades among Estonians (if any completely white-headed one?)as there are in Sweden-Norway etc.The most similar people in my mind to us are the Latvians(despite different language).

[Inese]

The most similar people in my mind to us are the Latvians(despite different language).
:thumb001::thumb001: Hi!! :D

[Atlas]

I have green to brown eyes, mostly green in the sun but I am not nordic, y'all have seen pics of me. I guess you find green eyes in every European countries, and not especially the northern ones.

[Jarl]

I have seen 6 Estonians(2 being pure Estonians) during my lifetime with green eyes. 0 Estonians with brown eyes

Dear fellow-countryman, where have you lived?Or you never look into somebodys eyes?You have seen 0 Estonians with brown eyes?
I understand- we try imagine weselves as "aryan" and Scandinavian as possible, but it´´s ridiculous to claim that you claimed:)Of course, there are brown eyes among estonians.

We are generally of course a"light" nation, bu a bit less lighter than the Scandies and the Finns.There are not so much whithe-heades among Estonians (if any completely white-headed one?)as there are in Sweden-Norway etc.The most similar people in my mind to us are the Latvians(despite different language).

:) It's always a pleasure to listen to one more sober voice in these discussions.

[Äike]

I have seen 6 Estonians(2 being pure Estonians) during my lifetime with green eyes. 0 Estonians with brown eyes

Dear fellow-countryman, where have you lived?Or you never look into somebodys eyes?You have seen 0 Estonians with brown eyes?
I understand- we try imagine weselves as "aryan" and Scandinavian as possible, but it´´s ridiculous to claim that you claimed:)Of course, there are brown eyes among estonians.

We are generally of course a"light" nation, bu a bit less lighter than the Scandies and the Finns.There are not so much whithe-heades among Estonians (if any completely white-headed one?)as there are in Sweden-Norway etc.The most similar people in my mind to us are the Latvians(despite different language).

I have lived in a 100% Estonian village and now in a majority Estonian area of Tallinn. I myself, have light green eyes. I'm a living proof that not all Estonians have blue/gray eyes. But I got my green eyes from my Swedish ancestors. Technically, Estonians aren't "Aryans", because we aren't Indo-Europeans;) Estonians aren't Scandinavians either, because... we don't live in Scandinavia:p The only area lighter then Estonia, in Scandinavia (http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/blond_hair_map1.jpg) is Northern Sweden, a small part of Norway and then Finland is the lightest area of entire Europe.

There are brown eyes among every European nationality, I just haven't met any Estonians with brown eyes yet. Looks like I gotta meet more people and btw, I look into people's eyes.

If by "white-heads" you mean platin blond, then my father is one. I also know several people with platin blond hair. I am normal blond myself.

Now the question is. Dear fellow countryman, where have you lived?:D

Making an introduction thread would be nice too:)

[esaima]

Now the question is. Dear fellow countryman, where have you lived?

Making an introduction thread would be nice too.

Hi, Karl!Tere, Karl!
Mu ema ja tema suguvõsa on Järva- ja Lääne-Virumaalt, isa Võrumaalt, seega on mu juured mitmel pool laiali.:)
My mother is from Mid-Estonia, father from South-East, so my "roots" came from different part on Estonia.In our family mother and sister have brown eyes, father has green-gray, brother has gray eyes.I have green eyes myself.I have no non-Estonian roots, no Swedes, Germans, Latvians, Russians in my family.
I have seen enough brown eyes in Estonia.Of corse-blue-grey strongly dominate.I´ m really a bit confused if you say you haven´t seen brown eyes among Estonians.mhmm...
There is a book (Juhan Aul.Eestlaste anropoloogiast, välja antud millalgi 1972.v73)of an E.antropologist Juhan Aul, I try to find it, because I remember there was some eye-color statistics.

[Äike]

Now the question is. Dear fellow countryman, where have you lived?

Making an introduction thread would be nice too.

Hi, Karl!Tere, Karl!
Mu ema ja tema suguvõsa on Järva- ja Lääne-Virumaalt, isa Võrumaalt, seega on mu juured mitmel pool laiali.:)
My mother is from Mid-Estonia, father from South-East, so my "roots" came from different part on Estonia.In our family mother and sister have brown eyes, father has green-gray, brother has gray eyes.I have green eyes myself.I have no non-Estonian roots, no Swedes, Germans, Latvians, Russians in my family.
I have seen enough brown eyes in Estonia.Of corse-blue-grey strongly dominate.I´ m really a bit confused if you say you haven´t seen brown eyes among Estonians.mhmm...
There is a book (Juhan Aul.Eestlaste anropoloogiast, välja antud millalgi 1972.v73)of an E.antropologist Juhan Aul, I try to find it, because I remember there was some eye-color statistics.

Thanks for the introduction post. Not in the right place but good enough. A noticeable portion of Estonians have some non-Estonian blood, we have been invaded by Swedes, Danes, Germans, Poles and Russians. You can notice a pattern if you look at the genetics of Estonians. Luckily, Estonians are still majority Finnic. As I said before, every European ethnicity has people with blue, green and brown eyes. Just the fact is that the light eyed form a majority in Estonia.

Look at this map (http://westernparadigm.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/blue_eyes_map2.jpg) and you'll understand that finding brown eyed people here is quite difficult. You'll have more luck in Scandinavia (http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/96/64396-004-0902EB77.gif).:p

[Murphy]

I've got hazel eyes, mostly light brown and pale green. I suppose some überviking must have pillaged a coastal village and raped one of my ancesters... now I need to carve out my eyes in protest towards the ethnic cleansing of my ancesters at the hands of those brutual Nordicmen!

Incidentally, my father has blue-grey eyes and my mother has dark brown.

Regards,
Eóin.

[Äike]

I´m really a bit confused if you say you haven´t seen brown eyes among Estonians.mhmm...


99% eestlastest on siniste silmadega (http://www.arileht.ee/artikkel/419233)

Taani teadlane Hans Eiberg avaldas oma uurimustöös, et 99% eestlastest on sinised silmad.


http://www.azcentral.com/ent/pop/articles/0206blueeyes0206.html

In Estonia, 99 percent of people have blue eyes, says Eiberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Eiberg).

:coffee:

[Brännvin]

Where the Professor Eiberg made such statement?

[Äike]

Where the Professor Eiberg made such statement?

In his research:confused:

http://www.azcentral.com/ent/pop/articles/0206blueeyes0206.html

http://www.zoominfo.com/people/Eiberg_Hans_1255349220.aspx

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-02-05-blue-eyes_N.htm?POE=click-refer&

http://webcenters.netscape.compuserve.com/news/package.jsp?name=fte/blueeyedpeople/blueeyedpeople

Just scroll downwards and I'm too lazy to post more articles.

[Ulf]

I always knew I was some sort of cosmic super Nordic badass.

[Jarl]

Where the Professor Eiberg made such statement?

That just doesn't make any sense. Thats waaay more than Scandinavian means. I don't think any continental population has 99% blue eyes.

[Jarl]

Hi, Karl!Tere, Karl!
Mu ema ja tema suguvõsa on Järva- ja Lääne-Virumaalt, isa Võrumaalt, seega on mu juured mitmel pool laiali.:)
My mother is from Mid-Estonia, father from South-East, so my "roots" came from different part on Estonia.In our family mother and sister have brown eyes, father has green-gray, brother has gray eyes.I have green eyes myself.I have no non-Estonian roots, no Swedes, Germans, Latvians, Russians in my family.
I have seen enough brown eyes in Estonia.Of corse-blue-grey strongly dominate.I´ m really a bit confused if you say you haven´t seen brown eyes among Estonians.mhmm...
There is a book (Juhan Aul.Eestlaste anropoloogiast, välja antud millalgi 1972.v73)of an E.antropologist Juhan Aul, I try to find it, because I remember there was some eye-color statistics.

Coon wrote about Estonians:


surprising, since there have been a considerable mixture between Esths and Swedes, and a considerable absorption, in Esthonia, of early North Germans. The pigment character of the Esths is prevailingly blond, comparable to that of both Livs and Swedes; 56 per cent of the hair is called "fair," 43 per cent brown, and less than one per cent each are red and black. The eyes are blue in 25 per cent of cases, and gray in 51 per cent, while the brown class is said to include 13 per cent of the whole

76% blue and gray, 13% brown, 11% green/light-mixed

Lives were said to have 8% brown eyes. Estonians have considerably less brown eyes. But what distinguishes them most from other Balts, it that they also have low green and ligh-mixed eye frequency. Still though 99% blue eyes is a gross exaggeration.

[Äike]

That just doesn't make any sense. Thats waaay more than Scandinavian means. I don't think any continental population has 99% blue eyes.

Overall, Estonians are more light eyed then Scandinavians, but I doubt in the 99% blue eyes too. 98% or 97% would sound more realistic. By his words, 30 years back, Danes were 92% blue eyed.

Well, he might be right. He has made some important discoveries and has been researching the human genome for almost 40 years.

[Äike]

Coon wrote about Estonians:



76% blue and gray, 13% brown, 11% green/light-mixed

Lives were said to have 8% brown eyes. Estonians have considerably less brown eyes. But what distinguishes them most from other Balts, it that they also have low green and ligh-mixed eye frequency. Still though 99% blue eyes is a gross exaggeration.

I trust modern researchers and genetics more.

Some anthropologists of the 19th and 20th century were quite wrong about some things.

[Jarl]

Overall, Estonians are more light eyed then Scandinavians, but I doubt in the 99% blue eyes too. 98% or 97% would sound more realistic. By his words, 30 years back, Danes were 92% blue eyed.

Well, he might be right. He has made some important discoveries and has been researching the human genome for almost 40 years.

I do not doubt that Estonians and Finns might be lighter than Nordic Scandinavians overall. Indeed, that's what old biometric surveys indicated. However, I can log onto any Estonian dating website, and tell you that 99% frequency is a myth. Id be amazed if more than 80% Estonians had clear blue/gray eyes.


I trust modern researchers and genetics more. Some anthropologists of the 19th and 20th century were quite wrong about some things.

I've got no idea where he took this number from, and that is why I will trust the old surveys more. Just by looking at the neighbouring populations, one might tell that Estonian blue-eye frequency can't exceed 90%. Estonia is not an island or a secluded valley deep in the mountains. I'd propose the same as I did to Absinthe. Find an Estonian dating website and check it yourself.

[Äike]

However, I can log onto any Estonian dating website, and tell you that 99% frequency is a myth. Id be amazed if more than 80% Estonians had clear blue/gray eyes.

I agree with you 100%! Do you know why? Estonia is 69% Estonian. Maybe you'll find some hot girl named Olga, Tatyana or Anastasia when browsing on an Estonian dating site;)



I've got no idea where he took this number from, and that is why I will trust the old surveys more. Just by looking at the neighbouring populations, one might tell that Estonian blue-eye frequency can't exceed 90%. Estonia is not an island or a secluded valley deep in the mountains.

Bogs cover about 22% of Estonian territory. Estonia ranks second place in in the world after Finland for having the most marshy land.

The marshy land is one of the main reasons why IE-speakers couldn't stay here, as they brought agriculture. That's why Estonia and Finland are speaking Finnic languages. Estonia used to be more boggy, but modern times have reduced the %.



I'd propose the same as did to Absinthe. Find an Estonian dating website and check it yourself.

Maybe you'll find a new friend called Vladimir? :D

[Jarl]

Oh! Come on! For Finland, apparently the blondest country in the world, there's 72 to 83% blue/grey eyes, depending on the region. Id be amazed if Estonia had a much higher frequency.

[Äike]

Oh! Come on! For Finland, apparently the blondest country in the world, there's 72 to 83% blue/grey eyes, depending on the region. Id be amazed if Estonia had a much higher frequency.

What's your source? and have you ever heard about the Samis(Northern Finland)? I also haven't met any Finns with brown eyes.

[Jarl]

What's your source? and have you ever heard about the Samis(Northern Finland)? I also haven't met any Finns with brown eyes.

I can only rely on Coon's data. He lists his sources in every chapter. The Samis have obviously been excluded from the survey. The means are given for Finland proper.

[Äike]

I can only rely on Coon's data. He lists his sources in every chapter. The Samis have obviously been excluded from the survey. The means are given for Finland proper.

Finland proper is quite light eyed (http://westernparadigm.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/blue_eyes_map2.jpg).

and by Samis I meant people with 1/32, 1/16, 1/8 or even 1/4 Sami ancestry. Samis as an ethnic group are quite rare now, as they have been assimilated.

[Jarl]

Finland proper is quite light eyed (http://westernparadigm.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/blue_eyes_map2.jpg).

and by Samis I meant people with 1/32, 1/16, 1/8 or even 1/4 Sami ancestry. Samis as an ethnic group are quite rare now, as they have been assimilated.

I have no idea what data this map is based on. But it says "light eyes" - this suggests its not only blue eyes, but also all light-mixed, green, shades... 80% light eyes for Eastern Germany and Northern Poland is almost certainly incorrect... unless all shades of green are counted as "light".

Neither can I understand where the figure of 99% came from. Our new Estonian friend seems to be equally sceptical on this. Frequency of about 80% blue/gray eyes seems plausible for parts of Scandinavia and Estonia. Over 90% seems highly unlikely. Obviously one can blame it on the Russians, Germans or Balts. But way back in 1904, when the pigmentation surveys were conducted, there were not so many of them in Estonia.

[Äike]

Neither can I understand where the figure of 99% came from. Our new Estonian friend seems to be equally sceptical on this. Frequency of about 80% blue/gray eyes seems plausible for parts of Scandinavia and Estonia. Over 90% seems highly unlikely. Obviously one can blame it on the Russians, Germans or Balts. But way back in 1904, when the pigmentation surveys were conducted, there were not so many of them in Estonia.

I am also skeptical about the 99% and our new Estonian friend isn't very educated in genealogy and anthropology, I'm just wondering what place of Estonia actually has so many brown eyed people that he claims such interesting things.

There were some Russians and Germans in Estonia during that time. Russians owned Estonia, while the Germans ruled the Estonians. There were also some Balts here. Some of the Baltic-Germans have also assimilated into the Estonian population.

I once researched Estonian genetics and did read about a person who's genes were 100% Bavarian and he didn't know a thing about his German ancestry. Bavarians aren't very light compared to Estonians by the way.

I also don't trust such old researchers and researches.

[Jarl]

I am also skeptical about the 99% and our new Estonian friend isn't very educated in genealogy and anthropology, I'm just wondering what place of Estonia actually has so many brown eyed people that he claims such interesting things.

No idea. A freq of 8-13% brown eyes for Livs and Esths is not very high. At the same time Coon wrote "pure brown" eyes among Lithuanians is at 3%. Thats puzzling. If thats true then theoretically it should be even less among Esthonians. Im assuming then, that this 8-13% includes also brown-green (hazel) eyes - Martin's 7.

[Äike]

No idea. A freq of 8-13% brown eyes for Livs and Esths is not very high. At the same time Coon wrote "pure brown" eyes among Lithuanians is at 3%. Thats puzzling. If thats true then theoretically it should be even less among Esthonians. Im assuming then, that this 8-13% includes also brown-green (hazel) eyes - Martin's 7.

I'm quite sure that the % of dark eyes among Estonians is certainly under 10%. Eiberg also stated that the % of brown eyes among Danes is 8%. Estonians are usually lighter then Danes by eye color so the brown eyes % here must be lower then 8%.

Eiberg's claims are also backed by genealogical research.

[Jarl]

I'm quite sure that the % of dark eyes among Estonians is certainly under 10%. Eiberg also stated that the % of brown eyes among Danes is 8%. Estonians are usually lighter then Danes by eye color so the brown eyes % here must be lower then 8%.

Eiberg's claims are also backed by genealogical research.

I believe it can be between 1-3% then. However, certainly light-mixed eyes (green) are more common. This seems to be a characeristic feature of the Baltic populations, in contrast to Slavic. I mean that green eyes are second to blue-grey.

[Äike]

I believe it can be between 1-3% then. However, certainly light-mixed eyes (green) are more common. This seems to be a characeristic feature of the Baltic populations, in contrast to Slavic. I mean that green eyes are second to blue-grey.

Estonians are Finnics, not Balts.

[Jarl]

Estonians are Finnics, not Balts.

LOL! I know. I meant it in a geographical way. Finnics have a notably higher blue eye frequencies than most Balts and Slavs. I guess many surveys classify hazel eyes as brown - and hence the discrepancy. Poles have 20% pure browns according to Hryncewicz (later anthro surveys also indicate about 20% of pure brown irises). Hryncewicz noted Lithuanians have 10%, while Coon's data indicates 3% "pure brown" eyes - but this seems very vague. And it looks even more suspicious as Coon's Esthonians have 13% brown irises. This has to be incorrect. Coon's relied on some little series. Esthonians most definitely cannot be darker than Lithuanians (whom Coon described as visibly darker than Letts and Ests). Coon seems contradictory here.

Im leaning more towards Hryncewicz here. His 20% for Polish populations seems to be a very accurate prediction confirmed by anthro surveys conducted in the 50s and my own surveys. Hryncewicz seems more reliable to me. His criteria were rather strict and he usually put hazel eyes into green category. He analysed 466 Lithuanians, which is quite a lot too. His 10% brown eyes among Lithuanians has to be closer to the true mean than Coon's 3%. And, consequently, it has to be considerably less than 10% in case of Esthonians.

[esaima]

To Karl to Jarl

99% of estonians blue-eyed? Maybe 101, 33% ?, well-well, danish professor exxagerates a bit.
Just googling, I found numbers from Coon

Norway (Coon)

Eastern Norway

Citat:
In eye color as in hair color, the native farmers art lighter than the recruits, with 86.5 per cent of light and light-mixed eyes (Martin #12-16) as against 76 per cent. Of the recruits, 38.5 per cent have pure light eyes (Martin #15-16). This is by no means the Lightest-eyed region in Norway. This material shows us what had been previously suspected, that the Nordic eye must be considered light mixed in typical form, rather than pure light. According to Bryn the commonest form of unpigmented eye found in this region is a light blue one,
Western Norway

Citat:
Eighty-one per cent have blue eyes, and only 3 per cent brown.

Estonia (Coon)

Citat:
The eyes are blue in 25 per cent of cases, and gray in 51 per cent, while the brown class is said to include 13 per cent of the whole.

So Norwegians are a bit mote light-eyed.Swedes were not mentioned, but they are generaly considered to be no darker than Norwegians.But the green-eye percent in Estonia-11.
These Estonia´s numbers by Coon seem to me similar with numbers collected by Aul.Try to find the book, unfortunately today library is closed already:)

[esaima]

Jarl, about estonian dating website:
You can go to
http://www.rate.ee/
Its the most popular dating site, even the old-age pensioners are a registered users of it.
But its not necessary to register
Click to the word Otsing! In the top right.
Now you reach a new page Kasutajate otsing
And now you can search:
Sugu-that means sex
Mees-man
Naine-woman
Pole oluline-not important

Vanus-age
Pildid olemas-with photos Otsin!-search
There are mostly Estonians, the Russians have usually Russian indicating name, too.

And the same thing exists in Latvia http://www.face.lv/ All positions are the same.

[Jarl]

The eyes are blue in 25 per cent of cases, and gray in 51 per cent, while the brown class is said to include 13 per cent of the whole.

76% blue/grey makes sense. Bit less than the Finnish mean, but still much higher than most continental means. Technically in-between the Balts and the Finns. Seems plausible from geographical point of view too as there is a steady South-to-North pigmentation gradient. However 13% seems wrong. It's about 7% among Finns, and 8% among the Livs. Esthonians should be the same. After all, they are in-between these nations.


Jarl, about estonian dating website:
You can go to

Haha! Thanks! But I'll leave that to Karl. Im not that bothered. As I said, brown eyes are probably around 7-8% just like among Livs and Finns, the closest kin of Esthonians ;)

[Äike]

76% blue/grey makes sense. Bit less than the Finnish mean, but still much higher than most continental means. Technically in-between the Balts and the Finns. Seems plausible from geographical point of view too as there is a steady South-to-North pigmentation gradient. However 13% seems wrong. It's about 7% among Finns, and 8% among the Livs. Esthonians should be the same. After all, they are in-between these nations.



Haha! Thanks! But I'll leave that to Karl. Im not that bothered. As I said, brown eyes are probably around 7-8% just like among Livs and Finns, the closest kin of Esthonians ;)

By the recent 3 posts, we could say that the old researches of Coon are right and the more recent maps like this are wrong?
http://westernparadigm.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/blue_eyes_map2.jpg
Am I the only one who trusts more recent researches?

And by the way. North-Western Russians are genetically closer to Estonians. It's like this: Estonians-Northern Latvians/Livs-North-Western Russians-Finns.

[Äike]

To Karl to Jarl

99% of estonians blue-eyed? Maybe 101, 33% ?, well-well, danish professor exxagerates a bit.

I don't have any proof to say if he exaggerates or not. All I know is that he's a world famous human genome researcher who has done his job for almost 40 years. ~95% would be more realistic, his subjects were probably all unmixed Finnic Estonians.

By the way, what's your problem with Estonians being so light eyed?




Just googling, I found numbers from Coon

Norway (Coon)

Eastern Norway

Citat:
In eye color as in hair color, the native farmers art lighter than the recruits, with 86.5 per cent of light and light-mixed eyes (Martin #12-16) as against 76 per cent. Of the recruits, 38.5 per cent have pure light eyes (Martin #15-16). This is by no means the Lightest-eyed region in Norway. This material shows us what had been previously suspected, that the Nordic eye must be considered light mixed in typical form, rather than pure light. According to Bryn the commonest form of unpigmented eye found in this region is a light blue one,
Western Norway

Citat:
Eighty-one per cent have blue eyes, and only 3 per cent brown.

Estonia (Coon)

Citat:
The eyes are blue in 25 per cent of cases, and gray in 51 per cent, while the brown class is said to include 13 per cent of the whole.

So Norwegians are a bit mote light-eyed.Swedes were not mentioned, but they are generaly considered to be no darker than Norwegians.But the green-eye percent in Estonia-11.
These Estonia´s numbers by Coon seem to me similar with numbers collected by Aul.Try to find the book, unfortunately today library is closed already:)

As I have said 3 times in this thread already, I trust modern researches more.

[Jarl]

Its a matter of stats, not trust. I know Hryncewicz was an experienced anthropologist and I know his survey encopasseg about 500 Lithuanians and over 2000 Poles and Belarussians. As for the map - I know nothing. What scale was used? Who classified the series? How large was the material? Nothing. Besides, I believe that a map which lumps Northern Poland, Belarus along with Lithuania, Latvia, and then Esthonia and Finland into one category has to be incorrect.

As for old experts and Coon - no. He was not right. This is clear when we look at his bizzare 3% brown eyes among Lithuanians and contrast it with what he wrote himself (that Lithuanians are visibly darker than Letts and Finnics). If they are draker then how come they've got 4 times as many brown eyes??? Thats nonsense. But we've got the large Hryncewicz survey which puts it at 10%. This seems more credible. Poles have 20%, Belarussians about 15%. Coon was most likely also wrong stating that Esthonians have 13% brown eyes. This is contradicted by both extensive series from Finnland (Esthonia cant be too different from Finland), and Hryncewicz study (Esthonia should be lighter than Lithuania). Its always the best to compile sources. As many as possible. This gives a clearer image. In case of Hryncewicz we know his data should be reliable. A sample of 466 individuals is large. Large enough to indicate basic trends. Likewise, Finnish surveys were extensive and conducted on populations from many provinces. The size of Coon's Esthonian sample is unknown to me, thats why I don't trust it (just like the map) and use Hryncewicz as a sort of "gold standard". Using both Hryncewicz Lithuanian series and Coon's Finnish series as a rough guide, Esthonian brown eye frequency should be no more than 10% and no less than 7%.

[esaima]

Hi, Inese, too! :thumbs up!:)

[EWtt]

My mother is from Mid-Estonia, father from South-East, so my "roots" came from different part on Estonia.In our family mother and sister have brown eyes, father has green-gray, brother has gray eyes.I have green eyes myself.I have no non-Estonian roots, no Swedes, Germans, Latvians, Russians in my family.

I have seen enough brown eyes in Estonia.Of corse-blue-grey strongly dominate.I´ m really a bit confused if you say you haven´t seen brown eyes among Estonians.mhmm...
There is a book (Juhan Aul.Eestlaste anropoloogiast, välja antud millalgi 1972.v73)of an E.antropologist Juhan Aul, I try to find it, because I remember there was some eye-color statistics.

Indeed there seems to be a (minor) dark component in Estonians, it was also mentioned by Karl Ernst von Baer as having darker hair and complexion than the majority of the population, and being melancholic in character... however, that's not exactly about eye color. Well, dark eyes likely do have a foreign origin.

Many nationalities that came to settle free farmlands here after the Great Northern War were assimilated to the Estonian population, but whether this dark component is older or not... who knows.

[Virtanen]

Answer for question "Are green eyes Nordic?" is: Yes, green eyes are Nordic.

There is nothing suprising in it. Question "are green eyes Nordic" is a same kind of question like:
-Are blue eyes with one small yellow spot Nordic?
-Is white car with black door's handles light?
-Are hair when 97% are light blond and 3% are dark brown Nordic?
etc.
If you look on green eye by slit lamp (kind of microscope using in medicine) you see a blue eye with some, small, yellow (hazel) spots, however absolutely predominant color is blue! So green eye is a variant of blue eye with very small admixture of hazel color (There is no green pigment in a green eye).

NOTICE: I say about REAL green eyes! Many people, especially in South Europe want to "make themselves more Nordic" and describing them eyes like green but really their eyes are usually hazel/brown with small admixture of light (blue/green) color.

Green eyes are the product of low to moderate amounts of melanin and blue eyes contain low amounts of melanin. So, some kind of green eyes are almost absolutely same Nordic like blue eyes. Green eyes are less nordic than blue but still Nordic. Same like dark blue eyes are less Nordic than light blue eyes.

Green eyes ARE THE RAREST NATURAL EYE COLOR IN THE WORLD, and green eyes are most common in Northern and Central Europe but still rare. Among European Americans, green eyes are most common among those of Celtic and Germanic ancestry, about 16 percent. (link: http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/12/nlsy-blogging-eye-and-hair-color-of.php)

Green eyes also occur in Asia and North Africa but BLUE EYES TOO! Blue eyes occur in all Arab countries, India, Pakistan, North Africa and even in... Sri Lanka.

This is from Richard McCulloch's Racial Compact: "The Palaeo-Atlantids are typically dark-eyed (brown or dark-mixed, the latter a mixture of brown with blue or green). The other Nordish types are predominantly light-eyed (blue, gray, green or light-mixed)." (link: http://www.racialcompact.com/nordishrace.html)

So, conclusion is: Green eyes are obviously Nordic trait, same like blue eyes and gray eyes.

However eye color or hair color aren't very important in racial examination, most important are features of face and skull. There are about 40 features (most of face and skull) and only 2 of that are eye color and hair color, so there are many racialy non-Nordic, light eyed blondes and many brown eyed, dark haired people of Nordic Race. However light eyes (blue, gray and green) and blond hair are Nordic features.

[Comte Arnau]

IMO, "real" green eyes are rare almost everywhere, but mixed green eyes are common all over Europe, being more common in the North-West. So I would consider it a common but not exclusive Nordic trait.

[Loki]

This is from Richard McCulloch's Racial Compact: "The Palaeo-Atlantids are typically dark-eyed (brown or dark-mixed, the latter a mixture of brown with blue or green). The other Nordish types are predominantly light-eyed (blue, gray, green or light-mixed)." (link: http://www.racialcompact.com/nordishrace.html)


Richard McCulloch is not an anthropologist, though. His views on eye colour should really only be taken with a pinch of salt.

[Hussar]

As it has been said.........the "GREEN" colour doesn't exist.

It's just a light iris with a little amount of melanine. Higher the amount of melanine, more pigmented will be the iris.

So, gradually, from a pale blue you have a pale green, then a greenish-Brown, then an Hazel (clearly the shades are infinite potentially), and then a light brown.........and a pure dark brown eye.


The subject is quite interesting for the comparison of pics of several members, here, but scientifically, 15 pages to explain a so simple thing are too many.

[Damião de Góis]

NOTICE: I say about REAL green eyes! Many people, especially in South Europe want to "make themselves more Nordic" and describing them eyes like green but really their eyes are usually hazel/brown with small admixture of light (blue/green) color.


Trust me, i "don't want to make myself more nordic". In fact i don't want to make myself nordic at all. Portugal has nothing to do with Scandinavia. But what should i call this color then, so that i don't ofend anyone in northern europe?

http://i37.tinypic.com/2e20wv5.jpg

[Comte Arnau]

Trust me, i "don't want to make myself more nordic". In fact i don't want to make myself nordic at all. Portugal has nothing to do with Scandinavia. But what should i call this color then, so that i don't ofend anyone in northern europe?

Alex, you're a Portuguese pseudo-Nordic, you'll have to live with that.

[Mesrine]

Alex, you're a Portuguese pseudo-Nordic, you'll have to live with that.

Or a Southern Breton. :D

[Hussar]

Alex, you're a Portuguese pseudo-Nordic, you'll have to live with that.


Agreed. Alex isn't a steretypical southern European, whatever he thinks (i respect his feelings about being proud southern European ;))

[Comte Arnau]

So in the case of dark hair + light eyes or light hair + dark eyes, which trait would be prevailing?

In other words, which of these two girls looks more Nordic to you, if any?


http://i38.tinypic.com/33jsuh1.jpg

[Bartox]

I think the eye color does not make a person more or less Nordic, for instance, in my family (paternal and maternal) blue eyes are majority but we still look southern European.

[Tabiti]

The left girl looks like Asian influenced, imo.

[Absinthe]

None of the two looks particularly "nordic" but if I had to pick one of the two, I'd say the dark blond one looks more "nordish", because of her bone structure and cranial shape (dolichocephalic, high-skulled, long narrow nose, etc).

The blue-eyed girl looks mostly alpinid.

[Bard]

None of the two looks particularly "nordic" but if I had to pick one of the two, I'd say the dark blond one looks more "nordish", because of her bone structure and cranial shape (dolichocephalic, high-skulled, long narrow nose, etc).

The blue-eyed girl looks mostly alpinid.

I agree, by the way green eyes are/were common amongst alpinids?

[Amapola]

The only answer that comes to my mind is another question: Are eyes Nordic?

[Bard]

They are just one of the features to determinate the nordic origins of someone.

[Virtanen]

I agree, by the way green eyes are/were common amongst alpinids?

No, Alpinids are mostly dark eyed (brown and dark-mixed).

Green eyes are uncommon in all racial types, it's a the rarest natural eye color on the World but green eyes are most common amongst Nordic racial types but still rare. Green eyes are, of course, a Nordic trait. What I've written before- green eye is a variant of blue eye. Green eye= blue eye + small, yellow (hazel) spots, when blue color is very dominant. These yellow spots can't be seen without slit lamp (special microscope).

[Majar]

People with dark eyes are risking glaucoma, blindness, cataracts and serious infections in their eyes in order to get surgically implanted baby blues from a company called NewColorIris (http://www.newcoloriris.com/index.html), a company many are calling a medical sham.

jqIAfxtVfwE

One patient, Mark Alfa, a Hollywood actor and obvious plastic surgery addict, says he hated his natural brown eye color so much, he wouldn't even step out of the house to take out the trash without wearing his blue colored contacts.

OCCrHEcN33Y

Javis (http://www.youtube.com/user/javis3059), an African-American, got blue implants but later got them removed due to complications. Actual before and after images: here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhEb1VHrIJ8). The procedure costs $7,995, this does not include all the medications necessary to keep the implants from being rejected. The procedure is only available in Panama, and patients must spend 8 days to 2 weeks in recovery there and once home frequent trips to the eye doctor. All told people could end up spending $10,000 or more on this unnecessary vanity surgery. :twitch:

People are spending thousands of dollars on a shady medical practice in a third world country and most of them end up with eyes that make them look like B-movie vampires. People who get this done are so pathetic. Just be happy with what nature gave you. :rolleyes:

[BlueEyedBeast]

People take blue eyes obsession to extremes..

Don't I know it. ;)

[Freomæg]

It's insane. I know it's often drummed into society that blue eyes are the most beautiful, but there are many people who look far better with green or brown eyes - particularly non-Europeans. And I'd suggest people always look best with their natural colour (goes for hair too).

[kwp_wp]

People are spending thousands of dollars on a shady medical practice in a third world country and most of them end up with eyes that make them look like B-movie vampires. People who get this done are so pathetic. Just be happy with what nature gave you. :rolleyes:

I am happy, :D, now when I read your post even more happy...;)

[Wölfin]

I don't think he hated brown... He loved blue, there's a difference imo. Anyway this is a retarded surgery and on some people I find it looks even more unnatural than coloured contact lenses (in which case the pupils actually move unlike the implants. Btw the fact it is only available in Panama should say a LOT. I think the procedure was originally developed to help albinos with severely depigmented irises but there are too many risks and complications associated with it for it to be worthwhile to someone with healthy eyes.

Is it worth becoming blind to have pretty peepers you can no longer admire?

[lei.talk]

those implants do not duplicate
the obvious textural changes to the surface of the iris
caused by the flexion of the sphincter and dilator muscles.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Human_Iris_JD052007.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iris_(anatomy))

[Gooding]

I call it an unhealthy fascination with "exotica". I have blue eyes, but growing up, I'd have loved to be born with olive toned skin, jet black hair and brown eyes.Tall, dark and handsome rather than short, pale and common. My parents are both blue eyed, my grandfather and cousin both came out as strawberry blond on the McDonald (mutated version of the original McDonnell) side of the family and my grandfather, mother and I all have the freckled pale skin, fair hair and blue eyes. My father, like his mother, is an Atlantid, with black hair and blue eyes, just like my older sister, Keli. Ultimately, not even surgery can change our genetic makeup, although it can mutate our phenotype. Now, I can agree with Cythraul and say that natural is best and throwing money away on a shady procedure like this is simply a waste of cash and an insult to the face of one's family.

[Frigga]

People should be thankful for what they are given, naturalness is the ultimate beauty.

[Eldritch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egD3opqUCg4

[Gwynyvyr]

WOW! OUCH!
I cannot imagine getting such surgery done!
I have green-hazel eyes.
They suit me!

Just thinking about having someone cutting on my eye....ewwwwww!

[Frigga]

bwq9BGRYrP0

;)

[Stefan]

I'm happy with my brown eyes. People always tell me that I would look great with green contacts, but I really don't see the appeal in changing your appearance to that level. It is the same reason why I dislike people dying their hair, or tanning at a tanning booth. And to risk yourself in the process, makes it sound very alien to me. Those eyes look unnatural close up anyway. I've seen contacts that looked more realistic.

[Fred]

bwq9BGRYrP0

;)
Stewie: Good shot! Made my brown-eye blue with that one!
Brian: Yeah, well the next one's aimed right at your head!
(Stewie jumps out from behind the tree with a rocket launcher.)
Brian: What the hell?
Stewie: Now is the winter of your discontent!

[Majar]

Here are before and after photos:
http://i47.tinypic.com/14buxrp.jpg

It goes without saying his original eyes look better. They look hazel or dark-mixed rather than brown. The blue implants look flat like a robot's eyes, and his pupil will always appear to stay the same size. If you look closely at his pupil you can see the brown color peeking out due to the camera flash. This will also give him tunnel vision for the rest of his life. :tongue

The color also does not suit him at all. His face is somewhat villainous and ghoulish-looking, the addition of piercing very, very light grey-blue eyes make him look like a vampire. He has a beautiful natural eye color, a mix of green and brown. He's an actor, does he think he will get more work with these eyes of his? They are distracting rather than attractive.

[Eldritch]

Make me look like a villainous ghoul or a vampire? Count me in.

I'm starting to get the vibe that there may be something more at play here than a simple disapproval of risky and unnecessary cosmetic surgery.

EDIT:

"Cosmic" surgery ?!? WTF is wrong with me ?!? :D

[Majar]

Very light blue eyes look beautiful when natural. When someone tries to fake it, it always looks a little "off." It is a rare and striking feature, and if someone already has an unusual facial structure it amplifies that.

I think it is pertinent because I've seen people in racial-oriented boards with obsessions like this, if not over eye color than something else. There was a time when I wanted to see myself as "Nordish." :p

[lei.talk]

was it worth death?

BUENOS AIRES, Argentina
(Associated Press) — A 38-year-old former Miss Argentina has died from complications after undergoing cosmetic surgery on her buttocks.

Solange Magnano (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solange_Magnano), a mother of twins who won the crown in 1994, died of a pulmonary embolism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulmonary_embolism) Sunday after three days in critical condition following a gluteoplasty in Buenos Aires.

Close friend Roberto Piazza said the procedure involved injections and the liquid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymethylmethacrylate#Medical_technologies_and_im plants) "went to her lungs and brain."

"A woman who had everything - lost her life to have a slightly firmer behind," he said.

Magnano's burial Monday was shown on Argentine television.

Dr. Gonzalo Cortes y Tristan said she arrived at his hospital with an acute respiratory deficiency. Her condition deteriorated until she suffered the embolism.

[Stefan]

That is really sad how she lost her life over something that would only benefit her superficially. I feel bad for the children the most though.

[Amapola]

I am myself fascinated by green and VERY dark eyes, considering blue eyes the least attractive.

[Trog]

Me too, I have a particular penchant for green eyes, they are often mesmerising. Strangely enough, for a Scottish family with Irish ancestry, blue eyes are absolutely scarce on both sides of my family, you either get brown or green as an alternative.

[Bard]

I'm pretty happy with my dark green eyes, blue eyes are quite common in the north.

[Fortis in Arduis]

Paris Hilton is a brunette with brown eyes, and she looks French or Swiss to me:

http://www.hotgossip.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/parishilton_kid.jpg

It is rumoured that she wears 'Elegance Opaques in light blue by Ciba Vision' which are hand painted:

http://www.colormecontacts.com/images/ParisBlue%20Eyes.jpg

The range:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v503/Masha1033/elegancecolors12pa.jpg?t=1176924263

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v503/Masha1033/ELEGENCECOLORS.jpg?t=1176924301

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v503/Masha1033/lightgreen5ss8gj.jpg?t=1176931139

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v503/Masha1033/hazel2lp1xm.jpg?t=1176931156

A whole range of beautiful colours, no need for alien blue eye implants.

[Treffie]

Quite happy with my brown eyes thanks

[Absinthe]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v503/Masha1033/hazel2lp1xm.jpg?t=1176931156

Wow! :shocked: I :love: this one! So extraordinary... I want it!! :D

[Liffrea]

I want demon eyes, full flame effect……

[Solwyn]

While I am quite intrigued with the Miel tinted contacts (honey amber eyes.....mmmm), the thought of sticking anything in my eyes makes me weak. I have green eyes, bright green eyes, and I will stick to them. They go well with the rest of me. If I was going to blow my wad on cosmetic surgery it would be to take away the Boston roadmap of stretch marks on my belly from pregnancy. :D

[Tabiti]

I know such real blue eyes obsession case. It was a mentally unstable girl ( I even think she even suffers schizophrenia), that was obsessed looking one of my friends in school all the time, because her blue eyes. I was in my early puberty, so hormones made me act actively against this girl's unhealthy behaviour and that only brought me many many problems with teachers, parents and so on. You know how they try to defend such people, no matter their aggression. That girl was constantly weeping that her father had blue eyes, but she inherited her mother's brown colour. This is not normal for a 14 year old. Later, when I saw that girl in few years she was already wearing blue lenses and telling others this is her real colour, inherited by her father.
However, only mentally unstable person could act like this. With others (surely not within the intellectual types) it's usually only female spite. People with light eyes (including myself) are sometimes called vampires, witches like and so on. Once they told me I had the eyes of a doberman (dobermans have brown-yellow eyes so that shows the intellectual capacity of the girl that told me that).
Everyone has complexes, but complexes about appearance and ideals are the most lower ones, especially when shown that way. Obsessions are psychical disorders and could be even dangerous.

[Ilya.S]

I have a grey/blue eyecolour and I don't find it to be something special (almost whole my family has the same colour) . I find that the natural colour is the most beautiful , some people look better with blue eyes some with brown etc.

[Pallantides]

Paris Hilton is a brunette with brown eyes, and she looks French or Swiss to me:


Her great great grandfather Augustus Halvorson Hilton emigrated from Norway to the US, to me she looks just American.

[The Khagan]

She just looks like a fuckin bird to me. Turkey vulture lookin ho.

[Svarogstan]

I think I am happy with my eyes: I am color blind and can't see most of the colors anyway!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2475/3847758762_c169551031_b.jpg

[Arne]

sorry for you :(

[Elaveria]

I'm just European and my eyes are just blue, but there is something strange. It's like I don't have an 'eye corner'.

http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/8793/epioo1.jpg

How is this possible? Everyone has an eye corner.. :confused:

[Aramis]

I'm just European and my eyes are just blue, but there is something strange. It's like I don't have an 'eye corner'.

http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/8793/epioo1.jpg

How is this possible? Everyone has an eye corner.. :confused:

Someone set a spell on your beautiful eyes. :eyes

[Austin]

Eyes are blue you are in no worries.:lol00002:

[Aviane]

Your sells may have had a breakout, is why your blue eyes may have no corner.



Just Kidding, your eyes are fine.

[Tabiti]

Epicanthus?:)

Your eyes look normal, imo.

[Fortis in Arduis]

Epicanthus.

It's a lot to laugh about. :icon_neutral:

[kwp_wp]

there's nothing unusual in your eyes...
everything within the limits of the european standard IMO:)

[Matritensis]

You have only one it seems,but it's anyway normal looking to me.

[Don]

http://www.all4humor.com/images/files/Scared%20Girl.jpg
Oh my GOd!

[Green eyes Dark Hair]

Green is the rarest eye color in the world, with only 1-2% in the world's population having green eyes.
Green eyes are most common in Germany, The Netherlands, Iceland, Austria, Sweden and Denmark.
Countries where these are slightly less common are:
Norway, Finland and Estonia.
In the rest of the world, green eyes are very rare.
There are a number of factors which determine the eye colour.
With green eyes, one of these has mutated.
A certain orange pigment has then become more yellowy, together with more determinating factors this causes green eyes, instead of brown eyes.
(without mutation)
Also, the colour of eyes is genetically a lot more complicated than the medical world has thought for a long time.
Green eyes and dark hair are seen as a rare beauty in some parts of Asia.
I myself have green eyes and dark hair by the way : P.

[San Galgano]

It comes in my mind three italian actors, all mediterraneans in phenotype but with emerald green eyes.
I doubt it is a nordic peculiarity.

http://www.cineclandestino.it/public/gallery/2008/7/Stream%20&%20Download/Riccardo%20Scamarcio/riccardo%20scamarcio%20-%2024.jpg

http://www.diregiovani.it/imagesfe/bova1866_img.jpg

http://www.gossipnews.it/cinema/mickey_rourke_e_gli_altri_vincitori_sul_red_carpet/images/valeria_golino_2361.jpg

[Äike]

It comes in my mind three italian actors, all mediterraneans in phenotype but with emerald green eyes.
I doubt it is a nordic peculiarity.

http://www.cineclandestino.it/public/gallery/2008/7/Stream%20&%20Download/Riccardo%20Scamarcio/riccardo%20scamarcio%20-%2024.jpg

http://www.diregiovani.it/imagesfe/bova1866_img.jpg

http://www.gossipnews.it/cinema/mickey_rourke_e_gli_altri_vincitori_sul_red_carpet/images/valeria_golino_2361.jpg

Well, I think that green eyes are more common in Northern- than in Southern-Europe.

[San Galgano]

Well, I think that green eyes are more common in Northern- than in Southern-Europe.

Of course but they are not always followed by a vicking phenotype, nor celtic.

[Pallantides]

Both my brother and paternal grandfather have green eyes.

[Jack B]

Myself, my mother and my sister all have green eyes and brown hair (light brown for sister and mother, dark brown for me) It's pretty common here I guess but not as much as blue.

[Lithium]

My sister and my mother are redheads with bright green eyes :D

[Moonbird]

From what I know, Celtic, and particularly Slavic and Baltic populations have highest frequencies of green eyes.

Green eyes are pretty common in Finland. Especially grey-green.

[Mordid]

Me, my sister and my mum have green eye except my older sister and my little brother because they both have bright blue eye. :)

[esaima]

And I am a green-eyed Nordic god:thumb001:

[Gamera]

It's not that rare I think. We've even got mestizos here with green eyes.

But of course, they are more rare than blue eyes, which are rare enough where I live.

[Liffrea]

Blue eyes are the most common in my part of the world, I'm pretty sure I see more hazel eyes than I do green, it does seem quite rare.

[The Ripper]

And I am a green-eyed Nordic god:thumb001:

That makes two of us. Hurray! :D

[Äike]

That makes two of us. Hurray! :D

Three;)

But I'm not a green-eyed Nordic god, I am a green-eyed Scandinavian god, because I got them from my Estonian-Swede ancestor :p

[The Ripper]

Three;)

But I'm not a green-eyed Nordic god, I am a green-eyed Scandinavian god, because I got them from my Estonian-Swede ancestor :p

Well, I'm half Finland's Swede. Do I get to be Scandinavian too? ;)

[Äike]

Well, I'm half Finland's Swede. Do I get to be Scandinavian too? ;)

50% and 50%, this gives you the benefit to pick your (meta-)ethnicity. I'm mostly Estonian, thus I'm only slightly Scandinavian ;)

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Thank you, but are they considered Nordic or not?

Why not? Even brown eyes are Nordic....

[Transhumanist]

My friend, Humata, is working on an eye color DNA project. The attached image was prepared by him. It includes the eyes of both project participants and images in the public domain (i.e. Wikipedia).

I am Assyrian, with ancestors from Iran, Iraq, and Turkey. My eyes are the light green specimen.

[kwp_wp]

Why not? Even brown eyes are Nordic....

hmm.. not necessarily :confused:
I think that having brown or black eyes automaticaly excluded one from being Nordic.
This statement is taken from 'The Nordic face. A Glimpse of Iron Age Scandinavia' by J.W. Jamieson: quote: "The iris of the Nordic eye is blue, blue-grey or grey, and never brown or black." http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=204&postcount=1
correct me if I'm wrong ;)

[Tyrrhenoi]

hmm.. not necessarily :confused:
I think that having brown or black eyes automaticaly excluded one from being Nordic.
This statement is taken from 'The Nordic face. A Glimpse of Iron Age Scandinavia' by J.W. Jamieson: quote: "The iris of the Nordic eye is blue, blue-grey or grey, and never brown or black." http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=204&postcount=1
correct me if I'm wrong ;)'

How about a swarthy with bright blue-green eyes? like mee :) My father had dark-brown eyes - my mom is Nordic and has blue eyes. If you mix brown with blue you get the colour green, right?;) I have blue-green eyes:D

Can I join the nordic supremacy club now?:shakefist

[kwp_wp]

As far as I know green eyes are considered within the range of light eyes. So yes, people with green eyes can still be Nordic IMO. The question is: what about brown or black eyes?

[Pallantides]

hmm.. not necessarily :confused:
I think that having brown or black eyes automaticaly excluded one from being Nordic.
This statement is taken from 'The Nordic face. A Glimpse of Iron Age Scandinavia' by J.W. Jamieson: quote: "The iris of the Nordic eye is blue, blue-grey or grey, and never brown or black." http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=204&postcount=1
correct me if I'm wrong ;)

If you mean Nordic as in the 'Nordid' phenotype I agree but not in Nordic people, brown eyes were most likely present in the paleolithic Scandinavians.

[Guapo]

you get green eyes when nordick mixes with teh swarties like Lenna and myself.

[Äike]

If you mean Nordic as in the 'Nordid' phenotype I agree but not in Nordic people, brown eyes were most likely present in the paleolithic, Basque, Scandinavians.

Correction in bold. The Saami are also on average, darker than other Scandinavians because of their Western/Basque heritage. At least that's what Kalevi Wiik says ;)

[Comte Arnau]

Correction in bold. The Saami are also on average, darker than other Scandinavians because of their Western/Basque heritage. At least that's what Kalevi Wiik says ;)

Funny thing is, Basques/Navarrese are among the lightest Iberians when it comes to eye pigmentation.

[Pallantides]

Correction in bold. The Saami are also on average, darker than other Scandinavians because of their Western/Basque heritage. At least that's what Kalevi Wiik says ;)



The earliest settlements excavated in Norway were found along the south western coastline, dark hair and eyes are very frequent among West Norwegians especially in Sogn og Fjordane and Møre og Romsdal.

Frequency of Y-DNA Haplogroup R1b in West Norway is 43.4%:)

[Guapo]

The earliest settlements excavated in Norway were found along the south western coastline, dark hair and eyes are very frequent among West Norwegians especially in Sogn og Fjordane and Møre og Romsdal.

Frequency of Y-DNA Haplogroup R1b in West Norway is 43.4%:)

Thank you Pallantides, you are a wealth of information and cute too!

[Mordid]

As far as i've seen, is that Green eye are very common among North Atlantid.

[Äike]

The earliest settlements excavated in Norway were found along the south western coastline, dark hair and eyes are very frequent among West Norwegians especially in Sogn og Fjordane and Møre og Romsdal.

Frequency of Y-DNA Haplogroup R1b in West Norway is 43.4%:)

The Basques(or Europeans from the Iberian refugee), most probably got to Northern-Scandinavia by traveling on the coast of Norway.


About 7,500 BC the two different populations began to intermarry
(see Map 10). These populations comprised (1) the “New Western
Europeans” (the northernmost representatives of which we can also call the
“Old Northern Sami” or “Old Komsa people”) that originated primarily
from the Iberian refuge and (2) the “New Eastern Europeans” that had
come mainly from the Ukrainian refuge. As a result of miscegenation the
“New Northern Sami” came into being. It seems likely that a new northsouth
genetic-anthropological continuum was thus created where the
genetic composition of the inhabitants was related to where they lived. The
farther north the people lived, the greater the proportion of “Old Northern
Sami” genes they had and the farther south they lived, the greater the
proportion of “New Eastern European” genes. This continuum is still
apparent today insofar as the proportion of dark people increases as one
gradually proceeds farther north while the predominance of fair-skinned
people increases the farther south one goes.


There is no firm evidence of the stage at which the northern Sami
underwent the language shift WE > FU (where WE is some western
European language, possibly a form of Basque).
There exist three possibilities (see Map 14 and the three numbered
circles). The first is that the language shift took place at the time when the
genetic ancestors of the Northern Sami lived on the North Sea continent ca.
10,000 BC and represented Brommian culture. The second is that it
occurred within Eastern European Post-Swiderian culture when the
Western Europeans had started moving to Eastern Europe via the Central
European gateway after ca. 13,500 BC. The third possibility is that the
language shift did not take place until ca. 7,500 BC after the land link
between northernmost Fennoscandia and Eastern Karelia had come into
being. The fourth possibility, that the Northern Sami became speakers of a
Finno-Ugric language as late as the Bronze Age can hardly be deemed
credible.

Full PDF (http://www.ling.helsinki.fi/sky/julkaisut/SKY2006_1/1FK60.1.9.WIIK.pdf)

[Äike]

Funny thing is, Basques/Navarrese are among the lightest Iberians when it comes to eye pigmentation.

The situation was probably different, 12 000 years ago.

[Pallantides]

The Fonsa culture of West Norway was most likley the same people or atleast racially similar to the Komsa of Northern Norway:)



So since the Saami share western ancestors with Norwegians, I guess they are just Norwegians with a heavy Uralic input(40% N1c)

[Äike]

So since the Saami share western ancestors with Norwegians, I guess they are just Norwegians with a heavy Uralic input(40% N1c)

Well, yes. They were surrounded by Uralic people, before any Indo-Europeans had arrived. The pressure was quite big, thus they adopted the languages of their neighbours.

We can't be certain about anything, when talking about the Saami. But in my opinion, their Iberian refugee origin is quite probable.

[Korbis]

We can't be certain about anything, when talking about the Saami. But in my opinion, their Iberian refugee origin is quite probable.


They look nothing like the basques i have met, but is hard to tell since saami are mongrels of Caucasoids and Mongoloids.

[Äike]

They look nothing like the basques i have met, but is hard to tell since saami are mongrels of Caucasoids and Mongoloids.

Ancient Europeans in the Iberian refugee =/= modern Iberians.

[Pallantides]

They look nothing like the basques i have met, but is hard to tell since saami are mongrels of Caucasoids and Mongoloids.

Not really...
they have some Uralic admixture, but they are more Caucasoid than mongoloid

Also some Norwegians have ancient Uralic/Boreal/Siberian influence


Norwegians from the Eurogenes 101K SNP BGA Project

NO1

European/West Eurasian: 0.978308
East Asian: 0.012586
Central Asian: 0.004396
Boreal/Uralic: 0.004709

NO2(me)

European/West Eurasian: 0.964818
East Asian: 0.003130
Central Asian: 0.000010
Boreal/Uralic: 0.032042

NO3

European/West Eurasian: 0.966735
East Asian: 0.024139
Central Asian: 0.000010
Boreal/Uralic: 0.009117



Actually most Northern Europeans have a degree of Uralic influence, some just have more of it like the Saami.

[Elaveria]

I´m Serious as Hell. I REALLY don´t have an eye corner!?!?!!
LOOK at it.

[Loki]

I´m Serious as Hell. I REALLY don´t have an eye corner!?!?!!
LOOK at it.

You do, it's just small.

[The Lawspeaker]

I´m Serious as Hell. I REALLY don´t have an eye corner!?!?!!
LOOK at it.
Je bent zo Nederlands als Goudse kaas.. maak je maar niet te sappel. :)

You seem to be as Dutch as Gouda Cheese.. don't worry about it. :)

[Elaveria]

Damn. I've told everyone I'm partially Asian.. :(

[The Lawspeaker]

Damn. I've told everyone I'm partially Asian.. :(
You don't look like it. :) Where do your "Asian" ancestors come from ? The good old Netherlands Indies ?

[Elaveria]

You don't look like it. :) Where do your "Asian" ancestors come from ? The good old Netherlands Indies ?

No, I'm afraid I don't have Asian ancestors at all. Unfortunately.

[The Lawspeaker]

No, I'm afraid I don't have Asian ancestors at all. Unfortunately.
Even if you had them: why worry about it ?
You're Dutch.. now come along and join the rest of the bunch here. :)

[Loki]

Damn. I've told everyone I'm partially Asian.. :(


No, I'm afraid I don't have Asian ancestors at all. Unfortunately.

So you've told them that based on your small eye corners only?

[The Lawspeaker]

So you've told them that based on your small eye corners only?
Small eye corners are not completely uncommon in (Northern) Europeans either and has little to do with Asian blood but more with the colder climate.

[Beorn]

http://www.dollymix.tv/TROLL-BANK-GR1.jpg

[Elaveria]

Even if you had them: why worry about it ?
You're Dutch.. now come along and join the rest of the bunch here. :)

The Netherlands suck. :coffee:


And how is it possible my eye corners are so small?

[The Lawspeaker]

The Netherlands suck. :coffee:
No we don't. We are the best bloody place on earth. :D
Where else can you so much cultural heritage in such a small corner of the world ?
You tell me. :D Eff Tuscany !



And how is it possible my eye corners are so small?
Evolution. In some Northern Europeans it began to form as well because of the colder climate- those small eye corners protected their eyes from the cold and your ancestors passed it on to you.

A little known fact to you: Who is the damn goog around here ? I have a full European heritage but I smoke Gudang Garam or Spice Islands (at the moment I smoke a Spice Islands kretek cigar), and I just had a rice table. :P

[Gamera]

Your eyes are fine.

[Elaveria]

[FONT="Georgia"]Evolution. In some Northern Europeans it began to form as well because of the colder climate- those small eye corners protected their eyes from the cold and your ancestors passed it on to you.

wtf why me??? :confused::confused:

a chance of 0,000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000001%

Am I Scandinavian now?

[Gamera]

wtf why me??? :confused::confused:

a chance of 0,000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000001%

Am I Scandinavian now?

Do any of your parents or grandparents have eyes like yours?

[Lábaru]

Mother of the gods a mutant!

We should divide the world between normal people who have corners in the eyes and the monsters that have mutated into a new species without corners in the eyes.