We don't want multi-ethnic Italy, says Silvio Berlusconi

[Psychonaut]

The Italian prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi, has defended his government's decision to return migrants found off its shores to Libya by declaring that his party rejected the idea of a "multi-ethnic" Italy.

His remark prompted an outcry from opposition politicians, already indignant at his refusal to condemn an ally in Milan who last week proposed that seats and carriages on local public transport be reserved for native Italians.

Immigrants account for an estimated 7% of the population in Italy. Piero Fassino, a leading opposition politician, said: "Without immigrants, Italy's productive system would have serious gaps."

Berlusconi made his comment after denying claims that Italy violated international law last week when its navy returned to Libya more than 200 "boat people" trying to enter Italian waters.

The UN's refugee agency said the action deprived refugees of the opportunity to plead for asylum.

Berlusconi claimed the left had "opened the doors" to clandestine migrants. "So the left's idea was, and is, that of a multi-ethnic Italy," he said. "Our idea is not like that."

Giovanna Melandri, of the Democratic party, said it wanted a "country in which colour of skin, race and religion do not count". Leoluca Orlando, of the smaller Italy of Values party, said there was a danger of Berlusconi's government returning Italy "to the days of Nazi fascism".

The row erupted as a poll showed that Berlusconi's popularity had not been hurt by his wife's decision to divorce him.

Source (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/may/10/silvio-berlusconi-italy-immigrants-libya)

[Gooding]

If they don't want it, then they shouldn't be forced to accept it.Good for you, Berlusconi!:thumb001:;):wink

[Electronic God-Man]

I would bet that many Italians would agree here with Berlusconi. At the very least, they want the immigrants to acculturate, at the very least. Talking to my Sicilian friend about immigration to Sicily she said that she hopes that all the Chinese that are there (apparently a lot of them) would return to China. She also mentioned how the government seems almost completely incompetent when it comes to fending off "clandestines" as they call illegal immigrants there. Little is being done. If an African can scrape up enough money to pay somebody to smuggle them into Italy, it will happen.

About those Chinese again, she said that it was "absolutely absurd" that some of these Chinese are opening stores and hiring Italians to work for them in the stores. I didn't quite understand so I asked her to elaborate. It appears that Italians (or at least some Sicilians) are taking offense to the idea that immigrants from some country half a world away can come to their country and be so successful that they actually start hiring native Italians, while Italians themselves are still just as poor as they were before. She also told me a story about how some school in Sicily was pressured by Muslim parents to take down any Christian symbols.

However, Berlusconi in general is regarded as a buffoon by most Italians. But then again, I think most Italians regard their politicians as buffoons no matter who they are and with good reason. Italy's political situation is and has been a mess for a long time now.

(We should get more Italian members. I've thought about asking my friend to check the forum out, but I wondered how she would react to it. She probably thinks I harp on such matters too much as it is, seeing as how I am always asking her about the situation in Italy and how she feels about it.)

[Treffie]

It was obvious that there were going to be repercussions to what the Italians did recently in their refusal to let the immigrants in, and I'm wondering what the EU's opinion will be on this matter. What bugs me is the UN (and other bodies) sticking their nose in other nation's business and telling them what to do. :mad:

I like Berlusconi (for now, anyway:)), at least he's got the balls to speak out and do something about it.

[Freomæg]

I'm wondering what the EU's opinion will be on this matter.
Methinks they'll definitely have something to say or do about this. Enforced borders doesn't fit in well with their plan.

[Absinthe]

It's funny how the swarthy Italians, greasers, euronegroes or whatever some may call them, put their European counterparts to shame when it comes to nationalism & immigration policies.

Sorry, just had to say that, with all the Italian-bashing going on :p

[Sigurd]

Alas, Berlusconi's otherwise sensible idea of a mono-ethnic Italy also comes at the expense of the South Tyrolese. :coffee:

Celebrations of German culture have been disallowed, German-speaking activists detained illegally without note of it being made in the files, Demonstrations asking for the removal of the demeaning Victory Monument and Kapuziner-Wastl disallowed, Referenda of the Ladin-speaking Buchenstein/Fodom (ital: Livinallongo) and Hayden/Anpez (ital: Cortina d'Ampezzo) to return to their historical South Tyrol (Mussolini gave them to Belluno in 1923 to demean them) dismissed, ...

As sensible as his opposition to immigrant-swamped Italy is at large, he is also opposed to the self-determination of Germans and Ladiners in South Tyrol, attempts to treat them as second-class citizens by the executive and police as well as an attemption further Italianization have been going rampant.

As such, everything comes with a flip side, and in that case not a flip-side I can sanction with a clean conscience, as it involves ethnic brothers who were mistakenly and unrightfully given to Italy after WWI. Berlusconi doesn't wish to treat the South Tyrolese much better on their rightful ancestral soil than the Balts were treated by the Russians on their own ancestral soil. :rolleyes:

[Absinthe]

If, hypothetically speaking, of course, there was a foreign minority living in Germany, would you be happy if they were allowed to celebrate their culture and be denoted as first class citizens? ;)

[Sigurd]

If, hypothetically speaking, of course, there was a foreign minority living in Germany, would you be happy if they were allowed to celebrate their culture and be denoted as first class citizens? ;)

If they are a historically grown minority who has their homeland there, yes. I would afford full citizen rights to the Sorbs, for instance. They have been living in the Lausitz since approx. 600 CE, and I have no intention to strip them of that home soil. The same goes for other historically grown minorities such as the Carinthian Slovenes (who actually VOTED to stay with Austria in 1920!), the Burgenland Croats (who were resettled there in goodwill when the Turks advanced) --- and yes, of course, the Ladiners, should we ever get South Tyrol back. They have historically grown enclaves upon our soil, and yes if they prefer to be ruled by us rather than to be independent and self-contained, they shall be granted rights to preserve their culture. :wink

The other point with South Tyrol is - it should never have ended up with Italy anyhow. Two weeks after Versailles was signed, Woodrow Wilson remarked himself that it was a mistake to draw the boundary at the Brenner Pass instead of at Salurn; at the time it was given to Italy, the German proportion of the population in the area was 93%, the Ladin population was 4% and the Italian population was 3%. Wilson admitted that they were blinded by Tolomei naming the Klockenkarkopf "Vetta d'Italia".

Later Mussolini would move near-enough 100,000 Italians up from the utmost south of Italy in order to "ethnically cleanse South Tyrol of the Germans", reducing this proportion momentarily to 65-4-31, it has now recovered to 72-4-24, with the Italians mainly living in the cities - same thing as you see in the Baltic with the Russians BTW. Typical colonialising settlement pattern. :coffee:

South Tyrol is the heartland of the Countified Earldom Of Tyrol, and it has been settled by Bavarian tribes since approx. 500 CE. Claiming it belongs with Italy is much like Russia laying a claim on the Baltic, France trying to forcefully frenchify Alsace ... and would be akin to the Turks conquering the Peloponnes and then treating Greeks as second-class citizens.

Opinion polls have shown that less than 40% of Southern Tyrolese wish to stay with Italy. Yet a referendum has been denied on various attempts. There is an autonomy statute which has regulated the rights of the German and Ladin speaking groups since 1946 (Gruber-Degasperi-Abkommen), with improved protection since 1973 (Zweites Autonomiestatut). Yet much of this is not adhered to by the Italian state. We are celebrating 200 years since 1809, when the Tyrolese Schützen were led by South-Tyrolese Andreas Hofer (hailing from St. Leonard in Passeier) against Napoleon, yet the rights to celebrate this are curtailed.

To be honest, I cannot see how ANY ethnic nationalist can sanction and support the systematic oppression of a people which, bordering its ethnic kin, was mistakenly and erroneously placed with another country. Hitler already sold them to Mussolini, saying "it's only 300,000 of them" ... and now ethnic Nationalists are willing to sell Ethnic Germans to the bloody Italians again?! :coffee:

[Absinthe]

If they are a historically grown minority who has their homeland there, yes. I would afford full citizen rights to the Sorbs, for instance. They have been living in the Lausitz since approx. 600 CE, and I have no intention to strip them of that home soil. The same goes for other historically grown minorities such as the Carinthian Slovenes (who actually VOTED to stay with Austria in 1920!), the Burgenland Croats (who were resettled there in goodwill when the Turks advanced) --- and yes, of course, the Ladiners, should we ever get South Tyrol back. They have historically grown enclaves upon our soil, and yes if they prefer to be ruled by us rather than to be independent and self-contained, they shall be granted rights to preserve their culture. :wink

Well, prove me wrong, but I am willing to bet that the majority of hardcore german nationalists one can find on and off the internet, would think otherwise.

As if I hear them:

"If they don't like being second class citizens, let them get the f** out of Germany" ;)

...let alone that I personally agree with this opinion more.

Take the Muslim minority in Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_minority_of_Greece) (Thrace) for example. Should they be treated like first class citizens? I say no. And if they don't like it, all they have to do is cross the sea. :thumb001:

[Sigurd]

Well, prove me wrong, but I am willing to bet that the majority of hardcore german nationalists one can find on and off the internet, would think otherwise.

You don't get it, do you? SOUTH TYROL IS NOT ITALIAN SOIL. It was only placed with Italy mistakenly, and has no historical, linguistic or cultural ties to any part of Italy. When it was given to Italy in 1919, this was the first time *any* Italian state (save the Roman Empire) had control over the area.

Other than that - historically grown minorities that are at this stage "more this than that" (I yet have to see a second - that is besides that vile Terezija Stoisits - Burgenland Croat which doesn't identify with Austria - during last years Football EURO Austria vs. Croatia game they collective cheered for Austria; I yet have to see a "Black Irish" which doesn't identify with Ireland but instead with Spain) would be respected by me. Historically grown means that it's their homeland since long.

Preferable, would be to give them to places which are more ethnically related - this is possible with Alsace, South Tyrol, Italian Switzerland. Annexing a few villages in Siebenbürgen is however not logistically possible lest we started a new colonisation effort to make this continuous. Enclaves could either be self-sufficient and would be allowed to vote whether they wished to be self-contained or whether they wished to be part of the state upon whose soil they traditionally resided.

Either way --- I seriously don't get it. You see that with so many German Nationalists as well. They masturbate every night over an old map which has Prussia and Silesia included, the former stripped of its German population, the latter's down to about 2-3%. Yet you have a near-fully ethnic German population in South Tyrol which is being oppressed by a corrupt Italian state which knows that giving this economically-well-run area it back to its rightful owner would bankrupt the entire country ... and you get a lot of Ethnic Nationalists, even German Nationalists giving them a right big "Fuck Off"...

... and are then surprised why by now some South Tyrolese want to be independent in themselves rather than to become part of Austria/Germany again, when their kinfolk they AGAIN placed their hopes in are about to forsake them AGAIN. :coffee:

But really good to hear that you would rather tell a member of the German Ethnic Group to "Fuck off out of Italy" when their ancestors have been living in this never-before-Italian area for 1000+ years. Is that what you would have told a Finn in 1904 or so --- "If you don't like it, get the fuck out of Russia"? :mad:

[Rhobot]

I would look at indigenous minorities who ended up in a country against their will (like the Germans in South Tyrol) differently than immigrants who come to another country and then refuse to adapt to their new environment.

[Sigurd]

I would look at indigenous minorities who ended up in a country against their will (like the Germans in South Tyrol) differently than immigrants who come to another country and then refuse to adapt to their new environment.

But the point is, Berlusconi considers them all the same. He considers the South Tyrolese as an ethnic group "which does not want to recognise and respect the sovereignty of the Italian state" and considers them tantamount to your off the boat immigrant. That is the problem. :coffee:

[Absinthe]

But really good to hear that you would rather tell a member of the German Ethnic Group to "Fuck off out of Italy" when their ancestors have been living in this never-before-Italian area for 1000+ years. Is that what you would have told a Finn in 1904 or so --- "If you don't like it, get the fuck out of Russia"? :mad:

LOL, who said that? :D Did I say that? :D

I said that I am willing to bet that the majority of German nationalists, including your buddies :wink, would most definetely not want to see first-class citizenship granted to any minority living inside their borders, even if indigenous.
But when it comes to German minority in another country here's where the double standards are introduced.

Now that's what I said. Don't put words in my mouth. Also, if you're looking for someone to pick up a fight with then I'm not the one, because unfortunately for myself I have a real life with very real problems and I can't waste my time in pointless debates. :) Also, please keep your posts shorter because many of us don't have the time to read them. :wink

[manu]

Alas, Berlusconi's otherwise sensible idea of a mono-ethnic Italy also comes at the expense of the South Tyrolese.

Celebrations of German culture have been disallowed, German-speaking activists detained illegally without note of it being made in the files, Demonstrations asking for the removal of the demeaning Victory Monument and Kapuziner-Wastl disallowed, Referenda of the Ladin-speaking Buchenstein/Fodom (ital: Livinallongo) and Hayden/Anpez (ital: Cortina d'Ampezzo) to return to their historical South Tyrol (Mussolini gave them to Belluno in 1923 to demean them) dismissed, ...

As sensible as his opposition to immigrant-swamped Italy is at large, he is also opposed to the self-determination of Germans and Ladiners in South Tyrol, attempts to treat them as second-class citizens by the executive and police as well as an attemption further Italianization have been going rampant.

As such, everything comes with a flip side, and in that case not a flip-side I can sanction with a clean conscience, as it involves ethnic brothers who were mistakenly and unrightfully given to Italy after WWI. Berlusconi doesn't wish to treat the South Tyrolese much better on their rightful ancestral soil than the Balts were treated by the Russians on their own ancestral soil.
South Tyrol is mostly german speaking but your references about Ladins are pure, undistilled skadi/nazi crap and this is coming from a half ladin from Fassa like myself. It's funny that you mentioned Cortina D'Ampezzo whose dialect is intermediate between Ladin proper and Venetian and you didn't mention Fassa or Friuli who are ladin speaking as well.
Ladin is a ROMANCE language much closer to Italian than to German and it's often considered part of the cisalpine family who encompass Northern Italy and was once spoken in a larger area including what is now italian speaking territory as far as Lombardy.
Moreover Ladins are genetically closer to Italians than to Germans. that's because they are of the same stock of Italians in Trentino and Veneto.
So please spare your nonsense and just a remainder:
italian: casa
ladin: ciasa
german: hause

greetings,
Manu.

[The Lawspeaker]

South Tyrol is mostly german speaking but your references about Ladins are pure, undistilled skadi/nazi crap and this is coming from a half ladin from Fassa like myself. It's funny that you mentioned Cortina D'Ampezzo whose dialect is intermediate between Ladin proper and Venetian and you didn't mention Fassa or Friuli who are ladin speaking as well.
Ladin is a ROMANCE language much closer to Italian than to German and it often considered part of the cisalpine family who encompass Northern Italy and was once spoken in a larger area including what is now italian speaking territory as far as Lombardy.
Moreover Ladins are genetically closer to Italians than to Germans. that's because they are of the same stock of Italians in Trentino and Veneto.
So please spare your nonsene and just a remainder:
italian: casa
ladin: ciasa
german: hause

greetings,
Manu.
Shouldn't you first introduce yourself (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=7) before directly attacking an established member in your first post ?

[SwordoftheVistula]

South Tyrol is mostly german speaking but your references about Ladins are pure, undistilled skadi/nazi crap

Not sure how the nazis got into this, but they were gave up their claims on South Tyrol (which had been taken by Italy from Austria in WWI) in order to secure the alliance with Italy

[Loki]

You don't get it, do you? SOUTH TYROL IS NOT ITALIAN SOIL.

According to Wikipedia it is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Tyrol



The Province of Bolzano-Bozen, also referred to as South Tyrol or Alto Adige, is an autonomous province in northern Italy.


European borders have always been fluid, and never 100% corresponded with language and/or cultural boundaries. There is an Italian-speaking region in Switzerland too, but no-one cares and no-one wants to incorporate that into Italy. It's petty irrelevance.

[Zyklop]

European borders have always been fluid, and never 100% corresponded with language and/or cultural boundaries. There always has been miscegenation too. Doesn't make it a good thing, though.

[manu]

Shouldn't you first introduce yourself (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=7) before directly attacking an established member in your first post ?
I wasn't attacking or making any political statement, I was just exposing his fallacies. South Tyrol is 96% german speaking and 4% italian.
I consider any attempt of dividing Ladins from Italians as basically a lame dialectical strategy typical of South Tyrolean separatists.
Note that I'm actually positive about South Tyrol (or most of it) returning to Austria, but I think the Ladins as far as language and
genetics go, are italians. Being half one myself, I'm kind of sensitive on this issue.
and the remark about Cortina is utterly ridiculous.

[Obscure Lagoon]

Maybe Berlusconi's behavior will trigger increased separatist sentiment in South Tyrol that will lead to or hasten the day is either becomes independent or rejoins Austria.

This could be wrong but my impression from internet sources is that it seems that most of the German speakers in S. Tyrol are favorable to either forming their own state or joining Austria (which seems to make more sense if they draw the line to where mainly the Austrians leave Italy and the bulk of the Italians stay) but many of their political elites don't want the issue discussed.

[Amapola]

Is not his attitude cynical and hypocrite after having been himself a driving force for the massive and disorganized arrival of inmigrants? "better late than never, though", they say...