Whats with all that fuss about Turks around here?

[Onur]

I recently joined here and i have to say that the number of threads and msgs about Turks here are really astonishing. Are we european, white, black, mongol or not, which one of the so-called European people looks like Turks at most etc. and all other nonsense. It`s like Turks are supposedly the only nation who mingled with neighboring people and all others in Europe are not!

I mean, whats with all that fuss about us? Do you really think Turkey`s ethnic diversity is so much different any other country in central Europe, Balkans, Caucasus?

The level of ethnic diversity in Turkey is not much different than any other Balkan or central European countries. It`s just Greeks, Bulgarians, Austrians, French etc. tends to cover up this issue, then enforce assimilation policies to the foreign elements. The level of diversity might be even higher for people like Greeks (incl. Cypriots), Russians, Bulgarians, Romanians etc.

[hajduk]

Брат, турчин от Петрич ли си? Добре дошъл

[lepa]

So you say that Anatolia and Bulgaria for example don't have many differences? I don't hate turks at all, they are very diligent people (at least these in Bulgaria). Also, most balkan turks are muslim bulgarians, greeks, serbs etc., you can't compare them to anatolian turks. I don't see where is the ethnic diversity. I see, you are bulgarian turk, no wonder, maybe your grandparents were bulgarian.

[Eldritch]

I wish I knew that too, since this forum is supposed to be about Europe, not about Turkey or other areas which are (from our perspective as Europeans) in the European periphery. :shrug:

[purple]

Onur, European history is and was dependent on other cultures and people outside its borders. We are not limited to discussing only Europe, since we are not isolated island or communist state which has no relations with other counties whatsoever. Turkey is of major importance to Europe, whether is good or bad.

[Hess]

Europe and Turkey have a very unpleasant, bloody history, so I am sure you can understand why some (especially the Balkan) members might be a bit upset with Turkey.

[Onur]

I wish I knew that too, since this forum is supposed to be about Europe, not about Turkey or other areas which are (from our perspective as Europeans) in the European periphery. :shrug:
I think it`s because of some kind of inferiority complex and probably they cant stand the fact that they have been governed by the Turks for about 300-500 years (especially for the Balkan states). Nevertheless, it`s astonishing to see that how frequent everyone here talks about that.


Europe and Turkey have a very unpleasant, bloody history, so I am sure you can understand why some (especially the Balkan) members might be a bit upset with Turkey.
Yes it was unpleasant for the last 100 years of Ottoman era but there was not much bloodshed at all, for the first ~400 years. Also, all empires were oppressive in some way and Ottoman empire was not unique in that. Roman, Austro-Hungaro, British, French empires was not less oppressive than Ottoman.

But so what? The amount of bloodshed during the last years of Ottoman era was not even 1/10th of the WW-2 but i don't see French or Polish here moaning about the Germans, at least not in same amount. Also i see that you are from Russia, our "bloody history" was not even close to the USSR days either when we consider what communists did, all that mass expulsions, massacres upon tatars, circassians, division of Germany for ~30 years and all that communist oppressions upon millions of people.

I find it rather interesting that while most of people today forgot what happened during WW-2 but what was happened during the last years of Ottoman era are still kept alive just like it was yesterday, even after 100+ years. I mean, Greeks are still organizing commemorations for few 100 people died in a particular town in 1820s but they don't even remember the ~500.000 people died because of deliberate starving policy during the German occupation ~60 years ago.

[Mercury]

Europe and Turkey have a very unpleasant, bloody history, so I am sure you can understand why some (especially the Balkan) members might be a bit upset with Turkey.

So do other European nations. Russians have done more harm to Europe in recent year than Turks. There is little reason why Turkey shouldn't join an organization like the EU or be accepted as European.

[Queen B]

So do other European nations. Russians have done more harm to Europe in recent year than Turks. There is little reason why Turkey shouldn't join an organization like the EU or be accepted as European.

Little reason? You mean that the fact that they don't recognise and they illegaly occupy another member state of EU is a small reason?

Or is a small reason that Turkey will take many many seats in EU parliament?

Or is a small reason that now EU will have to border, Iran,Iraq and other ''stable'' states like this?

[Mosov]

Turks just don't have a good reputation in Europe. A good portion of Europeans still view Turks as the people who tried to take over Vienna and the anti-immigrant/anti-Muslim views that are increasing don't help either.

[Joe McCarthy]

Originally Posted by Onur
Yes it was unpleasant for the last 100 years of Ottoman era but there was not much bloodshed at all, for the first ~400 years.

The mass murder of civilians in Cyprus in 1570 was actually worse than Batak or Chios.


Roman, Austro-Hungaro, British, French empires was not less oppressive than Ottoman.


I could argue all of the ones listed, but for space saving purposes we'll concentrate on the British. What did the British Empire do that matched the actions of the Young Turk regime, the Hamidian massacres, etc?

[Onur]

There is little reason why Turkey shouldn't join an organization like the EU or be accepted as European.
No, in fact there is little reason for Turkey "to join" EU. It`s a non functioning semi-federate, undemocratic organization ruled by few elites in Brussels.

And no, Turkey is not European. We are culturally both European and Asian just as represented by our position in world map. But more importantly, we don't need anyone`s acceptation to be European. Europe is just a continent just like Asia, Africa, Australia, nothing else. It`s not a nation nor ethnicity no matter how much EU elites desires the other way around.


Or is a small reason that Turkey will take many many seats in EU parliament?

Or is a small reason that now EU will have to border, Iran,Iraq and other ''stable'' states like this?
No no, for a small reason of Turkey would be one of the biggest contributor to the ECB`s fund for helping Greeks and other bankrupt EU states in the future, due to our total GDP among EU states. Thats why we will never join EU.

Bordering Iraq, Iran? You can be sure that the other EU states is not that happy atm, to have a border with a so-called "stable" state like Greece with millions of immigrants, anarchists and non-existent economy. Turkey is not that happy either but we get along with it.


The mass murder of civilians in Cyprus in 1570 was actually worse than Batak or Chios.
WTF you are talking about? Greek patriarch was personally attending the Cyprus, Rhodes and Crete campaigns to bless janissary soldiers to defeat catholics in those islands and crush the Pope`s domain in favor of Greek orthodoxy. The patriarch came to Cyprus during the siege to speak few remaining Greeks in the island to convince them to help to the Turks and against the catholics.

[Queen B]

No no, for a small reason of Turkey would be one of the biggest contributor to the ECB`s fund for helping Greeks and other bankrupt EU states in the future. Thats why we will never join EU.

Being a big country, doesn't necesserely mean that your economy is good, to start.
In the g20, there are also Mexico,Brasil and Indonesia, that doesn't mean anything...:coffee:
Before ''helping'' Greeks, first raise your quality of life, gdp per capita, freedoms... :coffee:


Bordering Iraq, Iran? You can be sure that the other EU states is not that happy atm, to have a border with a so-called "stable" state like Greece with millions of immigrants, anarchists and non-existent economy. Turkey is not that happy either but we get along with it.
Last time I checked, there was no war bordering us, neither we had our biggest minority to bomb us every other day :coffee:

[Queen B]

And no, Turkey is not European. We are culturally both European and Asian just as represented by our position in world map. But more importantly, we don't need anyone`s acceptation to be European. Europe is just a continent just like Asia, Africa, Australia, nothing else. It`s not a nation nor ethnicity no matter how much EU elites desires the other way around.
Then what a Turk does in a European preservation forum? :coffee:
Just askin'

[Joe McCarthy]

WTF you are talking about?

Erm, apparently you're unfamiliar with the massacre of the Nicosians: (http://countrystudies.us/cyprus/7.htm)


In the summer of 1570, the Turks struck again, but this time with a full-scale invasion rather than a raid. About 60,000 troops, including cavalry and artillery, under the command of Lala Mustafa Pasha landed unopposed near Limassol on July 2, 1570, and laid siege to Nicosia. In an orgy of victory on the day that the city fell--September 9, 1570--20,000 Nicosians were put to death, and every church, public building, and palace was looted.

Some accounts show the total massacred in Cyprus at 30,000-50,000.

It was probably the worst massacre of the 16th century.

[Onur]

Then what a Turk does in a European preservation forum? :coffee:
I said that we are partly European and Asian as well but we are definitely not european in the sense described by the elites of EU. Actually this is valid for some other so-called "european countries" too but they usually tend to forget it. Greece is one of them and other Balkan states too. Your religion and most of your culture belongs to the oriental world but you just pretend that you are not so. Thats the difference between us, we accept who we are but you don't.


Erm, apparently you're unfamiliar with the massacre of the Nicosians: (http://countrystudies.us/cyprus/7.htm)
It was probably the worst massacre of the 16th century.
Well, i find the number of ~30.000 very questionable because Cyprus was just a seaport used by the catholics since the days of crusaders. They were using these islands as some kind of base for converting Greeks, Armenians and other orthodoxs to catholism. Thats why Greek patriarch was cheering for Turkish victory at that time. I don't think there was that many civilians living there except the relatives of the catholic knights.

Worst massacre of the 16th century? lol, i bet 20.000 wasn't even the number of women who has been burned alive on a stake by the catholic witch hunters at that time.


Брат, турчин от Петрич ли си? Добре дошъл
Hayduk, i cant speak bulgarian. My family came to Turkey during Balkan wars.


Also, most balkan turks are muslim bulgarians, greeks, serbs etc., I see, you are bulgarian turk, no wonder, maybe your grandparents were bulgarian.
Yes, there was some converted bulgarians but not all of them, most was Turkish people. Remember, before 1878, Turkish population was at least half of the bulgaria.

Also, i can say same to you, maybe your grandparents were gagauz turkish? 100.000s of christian gagauz assimilated in Bulgaria in the last century and your government still giving free bulgarian passports to the gagauzs of Moldova, by claiming that they are supposedly bulgarian despite their turkish mothertongue attested for ~1000 years.

[Magyar the Conqueror]

Onur, they got bored of attacking Hungarians, so now they move onto our cousins.

[Mosov]

Onur, they got bored of attacking Hungarians, so now they move onto our cousins.

Turks are the cousins of Hungarians? lol

[Magyar the Conqueror]

Turks are the cousins of Hungarians? lol

According to Jew McCarthy yes they are.

[European Loyalist]

So do other European nations. Russians have done more harm to Europe in recent year than Turks. There is little reason why Turkey shouldn't join an organization like the EU or be accepted as European.

You have to be fucking joking. If Turkey joined the EU it would be a disaster. Millions more turks would flood into European countries.

[Mercury]

And no, Turkey is not European. We are culturally both European and Asian just as represented by our position in world map. But more importantly, we don't need anyone`s acceptation to be European. Europe is just a continent just like Asia, Africa, Australia, nothing else. It`s not a nation nor ethnicity no matter how much EU elites desires the other way around.

Europe is a blurry cultural entity with vague borders. Geographically it should merely be apart of Asia, or "Eurasia" if you prefer that term.

[The Lawspeaker]

Europe is a blurry cultural entity with vague borders. Geographically it should merely be apart of Asia, or "Eurasia" if you prefer that term.
You wouldn't even know what Europe was if it would hit you in the face.

[Europa]

So do other European nations. Russians have done more harm to Europe in recent year than Turks. There is little reason why Turkey shouldn't join an organization like the EU or be accepted as European. Perhaps you should remove the border fence with Mexico,pal?Or perhaps continue giving more money to the lazy Blacks who don't even bodder to find a work,knowing your gov. feels gilty for what your country has done to them.Perhaps The UN should convert to Islam as well in order to convince some Judo-Mason's sick brain for more control of the masses?Even more you should give a "new hope" to the Arabs and accept some millions in your country with their attitude for "integration".

All this is bull shit.

[Racial Observer 1814]

Well, it is thought-provoking subject. You have this large country, both in Europe & Asia at the same time, it is full of White-looking people who are Muslims, but secular like how Europe is with Christianity, and it has a long history of wars/bloodshed/colonialism with European states.

[Racial Observer 1814]

You wouldn't even know what Europe was if it would hit you in the face.



I find this hard to believe since all he would have to do is look in his own family tree and maybe some of his own family customs/traditions. And it is true that Europe & Asia being on the same continent (Eurasia) has created some confusing/challenging situations, like countries full of European-looking people who are Muslim, as one example.

[Thunor]

So do other European nations. Russians have done more harm to Europe in recent year than Turks. There is little reason why Turkey shouldn't join an organization like the EU or be accepted as European.
Turkey is about as "European" as Mexico is a part of the US.

I'm seriously embarrassed that another American has these views on Europe.

[The Lawspeaker]

I find this hard to believe since all he would have to do is look in his own family tree and maybe some of his own family customs/traditions. And it is true that Europe & Asia being on the same continent (Eurasia) has created some confusing/challenging situations, like countries full of European-looking people who are Muslim, as one example.
Europe is the (form.) Christian world of the West on the European continent and the British isles all the way to Iceland. As far as I know Turkey, with it's Islamic culture and it's location outside Europe is not part of that.

[Onur]

You have to be fucking joking. If Turkey joined the EU it would be a disaster. Millions more turks would flood into European countries.
There could be one and only reason of why i would like to see Turkey as an EU member; so we could have dump you some more Kurds and then Turkey would be like heaven for us.

For Turks? Trust me, not even a Turk with a minimum salary wants to leave beautiful coasts, mediterranean sun&weather for going in to the cold and foggy Europe, just be discriminated by neo-nazis and such. I could go to Europe for tourism purposes but for living? no way. Did you know that this is also a trend for Brits and Germans? did you know that there are towns in southern Turkey, populated with 40.000-50.000 permanently residing Germans, British families?

[The Lawspeaker]

There could be one and only reason of why i would like to see Turkey as an EU member; so we could have dump you some more Kurds and then Turkey would be like heaven for us.

For Turks? Trust me, not even a Turk with a minimum salary wants to leave beautiful coasts, mediterranean sun&weather for going in to the cold and foggy Europe, just be discriminated by neo-nazis and such. I could go to Europe for tourism purposes but for living? no way.
Let's be honest about it: we don't want you lot here. Not as tourists, not as workers, not as immigrants and we couldn't give a shit whether you are Turkish or Kurdish.

[Queen B]

I said that we are partly European and Asian as well but we are definitely not european in the sense described by the elites of EU. Actually this is valid for some other so-called "european countries" too but they usually tend to forget it. Greece is one of them and other Balkan states too. Your religion and most of your culture belongs to the oriental world but you just pretend that you are not so. Thats the difference between us, we accept who we are but you don't.

I guess the other ''so-called European countries'' - just like Greece to name one, are more into position to name who is european and who is not, since even the term Europe originate from Greece.
You probably confuse the term European with West, but even by that Western civilazation/culture is based on Greaco-Roman era (as well as Christianity and Reinnesance).

Now, how our culture exactly belongs to ''oriental''? If by culture you mean music and food, then, hm, yeah, we are oriental, but to my books, culture is not only that..

[Mercury]

Turkey is about as "European" as Mexico is a part of the US.

I'm seriously embarrassed that another American has these views on Europe.

Mexico shares much history and culture with the United States, especially in the south west; however it is not a part of the United States. Although, my point was on geographical and racial grounds rather than nationalistic ones. So it's a poor comparison to say the least.


I find this hard to believe since all he would have to do is look in his own family tree and maybe some of his own family customs/traditions. And it is true that Europe & Asia being on the same continent (Eurasia) has created some confusing/challenging situations, like countries full of European-looking people who are Muslim, as one example.

Many Europeans on here do not consider the Islamic Balkan states to be a part of Europe. Some believe Russia is a Eurasian entity and not a European one. In fact Russian immigrants that live around me don't think of Russia as European. Figures, since Russians have historically seen themselves different than that of the West. So the question is: where does Europe begin and end? If it's solely based on Christianity (which would mean those atheistic north European countries are not truly European) then why aren't Armenians and Georgians also European? I repeat: what it means to be European is blurry and ill-defined.

[Europa]

Turkey is about as "European" as Mexico is a part of the US.

I'm seriously embarrassed that another American has these views on Europe.

Yeah,some of the Yankees are soooo democratic oriented forgeting what happend to many of their famillies in 2001.That is so sad yet rubbish.

[Europa]

Mexico shares much history and culture with the United States, especially in the south west; however it is not a part of the United States. Although, my point was on geographical and racial grounds rather than nationalistic ones. So it's a poor comparison to say the least.
Just make them your new state,part of the USA then.

[Thunor]

Mexico shares much history and culture with the United States, especially in the south west; however it is not a part of the United States.
The exact same thing can be said for Europe and Turkey.


Although, my point was on geographical and racial grounds rather than nationalistic ones. So it's a poor comparison to say the least.
How is it a poor comparison? Turkey is not geographically or racially European (apart from a few cherry-picked white Turks). Actually, it's not inaccurate to call them the Mexicans of Europe.

[Crn Volk]

So you say that Anatolia and Bulgaria for example don't have many differences? I don't hate turks at all, they are very diligent people (at least these in Bulgaria). Also, most balkan turks are muslim bulgarians, greeks, serbs etc., you can't compare them to anatolian turks. I don't see where is the ethnic diversity. I see, you are bulgarian turk, no wonder, maybe your grandparents were bulgarian.

Onur is from Pirin Macedonia, and therefore is a Macedonian Turk....

[The Lawspeaker]

How is it a poor comparison? Turkey is not geographically or racially European (apart from a few cherry-picked white Turks). Actually, it's not inaccurate to call them the Mexicans of Europe.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Mexican_Girls.jpg

That would be an insult to the Mexicans. At least some of them have European blood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexicans_of_European_descent) (with others being of mixed blood) and they speak Spanish (a European language).

[Crn Volk]

The mass murder of civilians in Cyprus in 1570 was actually worse than Batak or Chios.



I could argue all of the ones listed, but for space saving purposes we'll concentrate on the British. What did the British Empire do that matched the actions of the Young Turk regime, the Hamidian massacres, etc?

How 'bout the kiiling of thousands upon thousands of natives in the New World...

[Europa]

Mexico shares much history and culture with the United States, especially in the south west; however it is not a part of the United States. Although, my point was on geographical and racial grounds rather than nationalistic ones. So it's a poor comparison to say the least.



Many Europeans on here do not consider the Islamic Balkan states to be a part of Europe. Some believe Russia is a Eurasian entity and not a European one. In fact Russian immigrants that live around me don't think of Russia as European. Figures, since Russians have historically seen themselves different than that of the West. So the question is: where does Europe begin and end? If it's solely based on Christianity (which would mean those atheistic north European countries are not truly European) then why aren't Armenians and Georgians also European? I repeat: what it means to be European is blurry and ill-defined. The EU,mate is based on the geographic area,meaning that only countries located on the continent could be accepted.(At least for now.Who knows one day they might accept Japan as well) no matter whether their ancient people were Iranic,Turkic,Slavic and so on bollocks.The Russian Federation has about the same % of land in Europe as Turkey has.In fact the Russians don't give a f...about the EU or The USA or any other bulshit union.Now I do realise that Turkey is economically more stabile then a lot of the European countries,especially the Ex Comunist block,but simply not in Europe.

[Insuperable]

The EU,mate is based on the geographic area,meaning that only countries located on the continent could be accepted.(At least for now.Who knows one day they might accept Japan as well) no matter whether their ancient people were Iranic,Turkic,Slavic and so on bollocks.The Russian Federation has about the same % of land in Europe as Turkey has.In fact the Russians don't give a f...about the EU or The USA or any other bulshit union.Now I do realise that Turkey is economically more stabile then a lot of the European countries,especially the Ex Comunist block,but simply not in Europe.

3% of Turkey is considered to be a European part while 80% of Russians which are almost 80% of ethnic Russians, live in European part of Russia.

[Europa]

I find this hard to believe since all he would have to do is look in his own family tree and maybe some of his own family customs/traditions. And it is true that Europe & Asia being on the same continent (Eurasia) has created some confusing/challenging situations, like countries full of European-looking people who are Muslim, as one example.

Another distant yet ignorant view from an other Yankee or Canuca or whatever they call the Canadians.That's why your country is full of Ninja looking women.

[Europa]

3% of Turkey is considered to be a European part while 80% of Russians which are almost 80% of ethnic Russians, live in European part of Russia.

All right I accept the correction,despite the fact tha I was talking about the land not the population.But yes the %'s are not the same,but still most of Russia(Not USSR)is in Asia.

[Onur]

Let's be honest about it: we don't want you lot here. Not as tourists, not as workers, not as immigrants and we couldn't give a shit whether you are Turkish or Kurdish.
Maybe you would be surprised but we do not want your lot here either. Not your polluting oil companies nor any other dutch business who might leech our people`s money. We do not want stupid dutch teenager tourists either, who throws up in the middle of our streets or asks us for drugs in the clubs while trying to chat up with our girls. Nevertheless, regardless of what we think, your people are coming here and ours are going there.


Onur is from Pirin Macedonia, and therefore is a Macedonian Turk....
Thats true. When my family was there, it was a part of Macedonia, not Bulgaria.

[Crn Volk]

Maybe you would be surprised but we do not want your lot here either. Not your polluting oil companies nor any other dutch business who might leech our people`s money. We do not want stupid dutch teenager tourists either, who throws up in the middle of our streets or asks us for drugs in the clubs while trying to chat up with our girls. Nevertheless, regardless of what we think, your people are coming here and ours are going there.


Thats true. When my family was there, it was a part of Macedonia, not Bulgaria.

Masala, masala, Alaf da tije :thumbs up

[Europa]

Thats true. When my family was there, it was a part of Macedonia, not Bulgaria.

Oh,I know what your trollish arse is intending to do with this sentence,but I shall not play your childish game,lad.All people with little brain should ignore your attempts.

[Crn Volk]

Oh,I know what your trollish arse is intending to do with this sentence,but I shall not play your childish game,lad.All people with little brain should ignore your attempts.

What, like bulgars and shiptars tag-teaming Macedonians here?? C'mon b'lgarche you don't like these games??

[Europa]

Masala, masala, Alaf da tije :thumbs up

What a suport from a brother.I thought you "Makies have invented the Cyrilic alphabet(respectivelly the Old Slavonic)"?Why don't you speak slavic then?

[Onur]

I thought you "Makies have invented the Cyrilic alphabet(respectivelly the Old Slavonic)"?Why don't you speak slavic then?
And Bulgars are in fact a turkic tribe, why don't you speak Turkic then, just like the Bulgars of Volga?

[Europa]

And Bulgars are in fact a turkic tribe, why don't you speak Turkic then, just like the Bulgars of Volga?

What a wretch you are pal:p

[Crn Volk]

What a suport from a brother.I thought you "Makies have invented the Cyrilic alphabet(respectivelly the Old Slavonic)"?Why don't you speak slavic then?


Зборам македонски, словенски јазик a ne турко-Balgarski како тебе

[The Lawspeaker]

Maybe you would be surprised but we do not want your lot here either. Not your polluting oil companies nor any other dutch business who might leech our people`s money. We do not want stupid dutch teenager tourists either, who throws up in the middle of our streets or asks us for drugs in the clubs while trying to chat up with our girls. Nevertheless, regardless of what we think, your people are coming here and ours are going there.

I agree with one thing: stupid teenagers should not go on holiday. Second: we should not trade with Turkey - in fact: we should invest (http://www.todayszaman.com/newsDetail_getNewsById.action;jsessionid=695E53E56 7FFD3412880199AA755B874?newsId=225266) somewhere else entirely and we should withdraw those billions of euro's out of your country. :thumb001:

[Crn Volk]

And Bulgars are in fact a turkic tribe, why don't you speak Turkic then, just like the Bulgars of Volga?


Yeah I notice Europa has some Turkic Bulgars on his Avatar too...

[The Lawspeaker]

I agree with one thing: stupid teenagers should not go on holiday. Second: we should not trade with Turkey - in fact: we should invest (http://www.todayszaman.com/newsDetail_getNewsById.action;jsessionid=695E53E56 7FFD3412880199AA755B874?newsId=225266) somewhere else entirely and we should withdraw those billions of euro's out of your country. :thumb001:
I think I have found a very good new trading buddy (http://newamericamedia.org/2011/08/philippines-eyes-oil-rich-sea-ridge.php). Not too mention Indonesia.. or maybe even Greece (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8M-rJULXlo). ;) I think that if our companies would indeed be wiser and withdraw from Turkey (I think we need a Trading with the Enemy Act) then they have plenty of places to go.

[Europa]

a ne турко-Balgarski како тебе Ha ha ha Whatever convinces you pal.:coffee:Interesing,how I could understand you....hm It must be a coinсidence.:coffee:

[Crn Volk]

I think I have found a very good new trading buddy (http://newamericamedia.org/2011/08/philippines-eyes-oil-rich-sea-ridge.php). Not too mention Indonesia.. or maybe even Greece (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8M-rJULXlo). ;)

Greece? Yeah...I think they need to help right now...

[The Lawspeaker]

Greece? Yeah...I think they need to help right now...
If they really have all those natural resources... :cool:

[Europa]

Yeah I notice Europa has some Turkic Bulgars on his Avatar too...

Whether he belonged to a Turkic tribe or not is unproven,but if you say so...Any other rubbish before I go to have some Bulgarian.....ops... Turkic:p food?

[Crn Volk]

Whether he belonged to a Turkic tribe or not is unproven,but if you say so...Any other rubbish before I go to have some Bulgarian.....ops... Turkic:p food?


Have a sip of Kumis for me too...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumis

[Onur]

Whether he belonged to a Turkic tribe or not is unproven,but if you say so...Any other rubbish before I go to have some Bulgarian.....ops... Turkic:p food?
No mate, enjoy your kebab with yogurt but don't forget the turkish coffee afterwards and pretend that all these are true bulgarian slavic food, just like greeks does. These are unproven too, right? repeat this for 20 times to soothe yourself and you gonna start to believe it.

[Europa]

Have a sip of Kumis for me too...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumis

Well I've got no idea what that thing is,therefore I shan't try it,mate.I see you are more into it.Have a nice cup of whatever that thing is.....Have a good afternoon!:p

[Crn Volk]

Well I've got no idea what that thing is,therefore I shan't try it,mate.I see you are more into it.Have a nice cup of whatever that thing is.....Have a good afternoon!:p

It's too bad because your bulgar ancestors drank mare's milk...maybe you need to do some more research on your bulgar heritage...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Bulgar_warior.jpg

[Europa]

No mate, enjoy your kebab with yogurt but don't forget the turkish coffee afterwards and pretend that all these are true bulgarian slavic food, just like greeks does. These are unproven too, right? repeat this for 20 times to soothe yourself and you gonna start to believe it.

I shall not prove anything to you pal.You've been already damaged by your ignorance like your fella "Mакедонски тъпан".This condition cannot be cured at all,therefore I am going to do what I always do:"Kill the ignorant with silence".Have good afernoon to you too!:coffee:

[Loki]

I said that we are partly European and Asian as well but we are definitely not european in the sense described by the elites of EU. Actually this is valid for some other so-called "european countries" too but they usually tend to forget it. Greece is one of them and other Balkan states too. Your religion and most of your culture belongs to the oriental world but you just pretend that you are not so.


Greek Christianity (which seeded Russian Orthodox etc) is oriental? :confused:



Thats the difference between us, we accept who we are but you don't.


No, I think it's the other way around. ;) I will be frank about this: modern Anatolian 'Turks' are Turks only in name - I'd say more than 90% of your (the average modern Anatolian Turk) genetic ancestors came way back from Byzantine times. The Islamic culture was forcibly imposed on over 90% of your ancestors.

In fact, European Christianity and culture has much gratitude to show your ancestors - they were among the first Christians 2,000 years ago. A good chunk of the New Testament was actually written for Christians in Asia Minor (in Greek) by St Paul. These Pauline letters were written to Galatians, Ephesians (now Izmir province) and Colossians (also near Ephesus).

Anatolian peoples (your ancestors) have had a major impact on European culture during the Byzantine era.

[Insuperable]

Onur does not speak what he thinks nor what is real, only what he wants to be real

[Joe McCarthy]

How 'bout the kiiling of thousands upon thousands of natives in the New World...

Specifics please.

[Joe McCarthy]

Originally Posted by Onur
Worst massacre of the 16th century? lol, i bet 20.000 wasn't even the number of women who has been burned alive on a stake by the catholic witch hunters at that time.


A massacre refers to a single, concrete event. If you can come up with a mass witch burning of over 20,000 I'd surely be interested in seeing it. :)

[Crn Volk]

Ha ha ha Whatever convinces you pal.:coffee:Interesing,how I could understand you....hm It must be a coinсidence.:coffee:

You understand me because your ancestors adopted our language about 200 years after setting foot in the Balkans. Before that they spoke a Turkic language related to today's Chuvash language.

[Boğaç Han]

Bulgars were a Turkic tribe related to Oghurs, Bulgarians today however have no relation to the Turkic ones, Chuvash people are the modern descendants of Turkic Bulgars.

Btw, Onur, are you a Mübadil bro?

[Loki]

Bulgars were a Turkic tribe related to Oghurs, Bulgarians today however have no relation to the Turkic ones, Chuvash people are the modern descendants of Turkic Bulgars.


Same story with Anatolian 'Turks' and Hungarian 'Huns'. ;) Hungarians cluster genetically with surrounding central European countries.

[Racial Observer 1814]

Another distant yet ignorant view from an other Yankee or Canuca or whatever they call the Canadians.That's why your country is full of Ninja looking women.



Please tell me what about my view is ignorant. And what exactly are "Ninja-looking" women, lol?

[Boğaç Han]

Same story with Anatolian 'Turks' and Hungarian 'Huns'. ;) Hungarians cluster genetically with surrounding central European countries.
Anatolian Turks are a different story. As I have written before, "Turk" is not a racial term, it is lingual. Turkic ethnicity is based on language and it still was during Seljuk era, therefore, Turks of Turkey and Turkic peoples of CA are classified as the same ethnicity in the eyes of a Turkologist. But if you are reffering to the contribution of Central Asians to the gene pool, you are right; the role of Oghuz and other Turkic peoples played on the Turkification process should not be undermined though.

As I have written before again, Ottoman records indeed show a great number of CA immigrants. Not only CA, but there were millions of Turkic immigrants from Caucasia, Crimea and Balkans during the decline of Ottoman Empire. My family is one of them, we came from Greece along with 1.2 million fellow Turkmens and settled in a village surrounded by Chepni(a sect of Oghuz) villages.

During Seljuk era, Oghuz consisted of Indo-European, Iranic and Mongoloid sub-tribes(like many other Turkic peoples), Yoruks(Oghuz-Turkmens) who immigrated to Anatolia were probably included vast Indo-European sects, considering the ancestors of current Mongoloid population of Turkmenistan stayed behind during the power struggle in the area.

[Austrvegr]

I said that we are partly European and Asian as well but we are definitely not european in the sense described by the elites of EU. Actually this is valid for some other so-called "european countries" too but they usually tend to forget it. Greece is one of them and other Balkan states too. Your religion and most of your culture belongs to the oriental world but you just pretend that you are not so.

Western European Christianity (Roman Catholicism and especially Protestantism) is much closer to Islam than Greek Orthodox Christianity.

[Loki]

the Turkification process

It's this Turkification process that sits uncomfortably with me. What it basically means, is that a conquered people (your ancestors, the vast majority of them) have forcibly imposed this new culture and language on them, leaving them no option to say no to that. It meant that they had no option but to break ties with their ancestral and spiritual roots, and follow the ways of the small number of Central Asian conquerors who imposed their culture on the bulk of the native populace.

[Onur]

modern Anatolian 'Turks' are Turks only in name - I'd say more than 90% of your (the average modern Anatolian Turk) genetic ancestors came way back from Byzantine times.
No, Anatolia has at least 12.000 year old culture [google "gobekli tepe"] and it predates the so-called Byzantines. Most of the so-called Greek named cities in Anatolia are in fact grecizied Hittite, Lydian, Hatti names. It should be same for the people too. They were Hittites before they became greeks and god knows they were identified with what b4 all that.


The Islamic culture was forcibly imposed on over 90% of your ancestors.
So what? Christian culture has been forcibly imposed all of your shamanic, naturalist, druid ancestors, by the Latins/Franks. They imposed Roman christianity upon you and mass murdered every Anglo-Saxon who opposed to that.

All of us has been imposed by some semitic religion from Palestine in one way or other (that incl. christianity too, remember the jesus was a jew from Palestine)


It's this Turkification process that sits uncomfortably with me. What it basically means, is that a conquered people (your ancestors, the vast majority of them) have forcibly imposed this new culture and language on them, leaving them no option to say no to that.
To be able to impose a new language and a new culture without using mass education, these people of new culture have to outnumber the others, otherwise it`s not possible. Without the mass education technics we have today, the majority always imposes to the minority, not the other way around. This is indeed a proof of Turkish population was a majority over the local Anatolian population since 11-12th century.

Minority`s imposition to the majority is only became possible with the mass education technics of modern era. For example, French colonialists taught French to the Algerians and few 1000 British did same to the millions of Indians by using mass education technics we have today. Do you think few 1000 British could have do the same if they would go there in 11th century?


Anatolian Turks are a different story. As I have written before, "Turk" is not a racial term, it is lingual.
No, it`s a racial term in similar sense like Germanics. Germanic people of Germany uses the term as a name of their country, just like we use in Turkey. Dutch people are Germanic too, just like Azerbaijani people are Turkic too.


But if you are reffering to the contribution of Central Asians to the gene pool, you are right; the role of Oghuz and other Turkic peoples played on the Turkification process should not be undermined though.
The claim of most of the Turks being the local Anatolians is a lie. Especially after 1071 AD, turkic people started to migrate here in great numbers because Anatolia was kinda desolated due to internal conflicts between Armenians and Greeks and because of bad economical condition of byzantine empire. Massive turkic migrations has been written in Armenian and Byzantine records like Turks outnumbering local Anatolians by 10 to 1 in every major city

[Loki]

No, it`s a racial term in similar sense like Germanics. Germanic people of Germany uses the term as a name of their country, just like we use in Turkey. Dutch people are Germanic too, just like Azerbaijani people are Turkic too.


The claim of most of the Turks being the local Anatolians is a lie. Especially after 1071 AD, turkic people started to migrate here in great numbers because Anatolia was kinda desolated due to internal conflicts between Armenians and Greeks and because of bad economical condition of byzantine empire. Massive turkic migrations has been written in Armenian and Byzantine records like Turks outnumbering local Anatolians by 10 to 1 in every major city

Genetic research trashes this idea. Have a look around ... Anatolian Turks cluster alongside with Greeks and Armenians, not with Central Asians ... the Asian admix is very minor on average.

[Boğaç Han]

No, it`s a racial term in similar sense like Germanics. Germanic people of Germany uses the term as a name of their country, just like we use in Turkey. Dutch people are Germanic too, just like Azerbaijani people are Turkic too.
Brother, you should take a look at the works of Xudjakov, Barthold, Zeki Velidi Togan and Peter B. Golden. Just pick one and start reading if you are interested, I will recommend books and sections if you want.

I have to quote myself at this point;


Anyway, even the earliest Turkic Peoples of Central Asia was more of an ethnic confederation of different Turkic-speaking nomads than being a single ethnicity, or race you may call it. During the reign of Gokturk Khanate(second largest Khanate after the Mongol one), Chinese records show that "Turk" was a term used for all the nomads under Gokturk rule, the original name of the founding Turkic tribe was As-hi-na, in their language, "Türük" meant "reproducing being", or quite possibly, just "human". Therefore, the name was automatically used for Iranic, Mongol, Tungus, Indo-European(Yüechih) and originally Turkic nomads all together, later became the name used to describe the people of Gokturk Khanate.
Under hundreds of years with certain Turkic Dominance over all the areas north of China, Turkification or at least common usage of Turkic dialects among these different peoples was rather quick. Modern Turkic peoples we know are the mixture of these whole bunch of etnicities. That's why all modern Turkologists agree that "Turk" is an ethnicity based solely on language, not even culture, considering the huge cultural difference among Turkic peoples. We don't have a Turkish look, we can look Mongoloid, European, Iranic or anything. My ancestors were from a Turkmen village in Greece, I have blonde hair and green eyes and no idea if they have banged some Greek chicks or not. I have anatolian Yoruk(Turkmen) friends who are blonde, just like Ataturk who was an Avshar Yoruk.

[Queen B]

Thats true. When my family was there, it was a part of Macedonia, not Bulgaria.

When exactly there was a country named Macedonia, before Fyrom that claims that name,and was created in 1991.??? :lol:

[Ushtari]

Turks just don't have a good reputation in Europe. A good portion of Europeans still view Turks as the people who tried to take over Vienna and the anti-immigrant/anti-Muslim views that are increasing don't help either.
most see them as Kebabs though

[Hurrem sultana]

most see them as Kebabs though

:D

[Aviane]

I recently joined here and i have to say that the number of threads and msgs about Turks here are really astonishing. Are we european, white, black, mongol or not, which one of the so-called European people looks like Turks at most etc. and all other nonsense. It`s like Turks are supposedly the only nation who mingled with neighboring people and all others in Europe are not!

I mean, whats with all that fuss about us? Do you really think Turkey`s ethnic diversity is so much different any other country in central Europe, Balkans, Caucasus?

The level of ethnic diversity in Turkey is not much different than any other Balkan or central European countries. It`s just Greeks, Bulgarians, Austrians, French etc. tends to cover up this issue, then enforce assimilation policies to the foreign elements. The level of diversity might be even higher for people like Greeks (incl. Cypriots), Russians, Bulgarians, Romanians etc.

I know what you are meaning here people do straight away brand Turkey as a completely non-white nation when if fact it's quite the very opposite.

Other European nations even to some point have their mixtures too.

I don't think Turkey ethnic diverse is that different at if anything it's close to other European neighbours as well as the Caucasus for example.

Turkey diversity is as much as Greece is actually I think myself too.

But the governments are very ignorant as much as alot of people are but I think Turkey should be reconised as a very diverse country just the same as Greece and the Balkans.

[Azalea]

It's this Turkification process that sits uncomfortably with me. What it basically means, is that a conquered people (your ancestors, the vast majority of them) have forcibly imposed this new culture and language on them, leaving them no option to say no to that. It meant that they had no option but to break ties with their ancestral and spiritual roots, and follow the ways of the small number of Central Asian conquerors who imposed their culture on the bulk of the native populace.

How is the Turkification process any different from the Kurdification, Hellenization, Arabification etc. etc.?

Besides, how does one force a language and identity on a people? I can see this happening in modern nation-states, but not in old Empires where ethnicity was irrelevant for the most part. Especially the Ottomans didn't care much for ethnicity. I don't know how much you know about Turkey, Loki. But there are plenty of muslim groups in and around Turkey who still speak their language and/or have kept their identity (sometimes together with the Turkish identity). We also see that these people most of the time don't show any traces of Central Asian ancestry unlike the ethnic Turks. It can never be a coincidence that ethnic Turks in Turkey show obvious CA ancestry while non ethnic Turkish citizens don't. It's obvious that mixing with the new comming Turks was one of the key factors in the Turkification of Anatolia and not 'force'.

[Mosov]

Turks are a result of assimilated native ethnic groups in their area that adopted their language and religion, either forced or through pressure. You had the fact of rape children being assimilated into Turks as well. With such a mixed group of people united only by language, the concept of Turkish identity was formed by Ataturk that pretty much took blood out of the equation and left Turkish identity to be around citizenship, since if Turkish identity was based on blood many Turks would have identity crisis as most are just a result of assimilated Greeks, Kurds, Armenians, and so forth.

[Azalea]

Genetic research trashes this idea. Have a look around ... Anatolian Turks cluster alongside with Greeks and Armenians, not with Central Asians ... the Asian admix is very minor on average.

Modern Central Asians are not the Central Asians from a 1000 years ago. You can not use them as a approximate for the original Oghuz Turks.

But if you insist on using modern Central Asians as a approximate for the original Oghuz Turks, then you should go for the the Turkmens as they are the closest to us in both language and ancestry - They are also Oghuz Turks like us. So let's see: Turkmen people have around 15% Mongoloid admixture on average. Turkish people have 7%. So going by your logics, this would make Turkish people at least 50% Central Asian.

[пустиняк]

Lol Onur as far as I know Petrich is city in Bulgaria. I don't know what type of troll are you but Ok if you are Fyromian you can say it.

[Azalea]

Turks are a result of assimilated native ethnic groups in their area that adopted their language and religion, either forced or through pressure. You had the fact of rape children being assimilated into Turks as well. With such a mixed group of people united only by language, the concept of Turkish identity was formed by Ataturk that pretty much took blood out of the equation and left Turkish identity to be around citizenship, since if Turkish identity was based on blood many Turks would have identity crisis as most are just a result of assimilated Greeks, Kurds, Armenians, and so forth.

Another post of lots of BS. You have no idea what you are talking about. The modern Turkish identity as a national one was formed by Ataturk, the ethnic identity of the Turks however is much older than that. Just look at the various Turkish peoples outside of Turkey. How would you explain the Turks in the Balkans, Georgia and Syria and Iraq? Did Ataturk also force a Turkish identity on them? And what about the non-Turks in Turkey? How come they didn't become Turkish?

Another thing is that there is a obvious link between ethnic identity and blood in Turkey. So cut the crap.

[Mosov]

Another post of lots of BS. You have no idea what you are talking about. The modern Turkish identity as a national one was formed by Ataturk, the ethnic identity of the Turks however is much older than that. Just look at the various Turkish peoples outside of Turkey. How would you explain the Turks in the Balkans, Georgia and Syria and Iraq? Did Ataturk also force a Turkish identity on them? And what about the non-Turks in Turkey? How come they didn't become Turkish?

Another thing is that there is a obvious link between ethnic identity and blood in Turkey. So cut the crap.

Not saying Ataturk was the only who forced Turkish assimilation. That happened over time. I'm just saying that Ataturk solved the problems of Turkish identity by basing it around citizenship rather than blood. "Turkish blood" is basically the mixed bloods of ethnic groups native to and around the region, plus the Mongolic component.

[Romanion]

How is the Turkification process any different from the Kurdification, Hellenization, Arabification etc. etc.?

Besides, how does one force a language and identity on a people? I can see this happening in modern nation-states, but not in old Empires where ethnicity was irrelevant for the most part. Especially the Ottomans didn't care much for ethnicity. I don't know how much you know about Turkey, Loki. But there are plenty of muslim groups in and around Turkey who still speak their language and/or have kept their identity (sometimes together with the Turkish identity). We also see that these people most of the time don't show any traces of Central Asian ancestry unlike the ethnic Turks. It can never be a coincidence that ethnic Turks in Turkey show obvious CA ancestry while non ethnic Turkish citizens don't. It's obvious that mixing with the new comming Turks was one of the key factors in the Turkification of Anatolia and not 'force'.

Acutally, Turks didn't refer to themselves as such before the Young turks came in and wanted to "Ottomanize" the populations, they called themselves muslims, and the census reflects this. Modern Turks don't all decend from central asia, this is the romantic side to Turkish nationalism. ;)

People don't like turks not because you think of biases but because of behaviour. Turkey is a very agressive ultranationalistic country. Onur is a pomak who labeled himself turk as is a reflection of this.

I think turks like Onur are mad because the cultures that pre-date ottoman times were very cultured and produced alot of important work to the world. Lydians invented coinage and spread into the Greek world. Byzantines produced the Cyrrilic alphabet and many works of literature. Ottomans made baklava and Syrian Coffee.:D

[Azalea]

Not saying Ataturk was the only who forced Turkish assimilation. That happened over time. I'm just saying that Ataturk solved the problems of Turkish identity by basing it around citizenship rather than blood. "Turkish blood" is basically the mixed bloods of ethnic groups native to and around the region, plus the Mongolic component.

He created a national Turkish identity but that didn't change anything about the fact that most Turks were already Turks to begin with. You should learn the difference between a national and ethnic identity.

And yes, we are the results of Turks mixing with Anatolians. Just like you are the result of Indo-Europeans mixing with Anatolians.

[Azalea]

Acutally, Turks didn't refer to themselves as such before the Young turks came in and wanted to "Ottomanize" the populations, they called themselves muslims, and the census reflects this.

Turks did refer to themselves as Turks but they also identified with their tribal identities. Like I said, it's not a coincidence that there are Turks but also non-Turkish muslims in Turkey but also in the former Ottoman Empire living. These ethnic groups can never be the reason for one man.


Modern Turks don't all decend from central asia, this is the romantic side to Turkish nationalism. ;)

Actually, all ethnic Turks untill so far showed Central Asian ancestry. While other surrounding populations didn't most of the time. Tell me, how is that possible if mixing wasn't the main reason for the Turkification? Was it a coincidence that the Turks who mixed with the Oghuz Turks got Turkified but those who didn't, did not? Use your brain for ones.

[Mosov]

He created a national Turkish identity but that didn't change anything about the fact that most Turks were already Turks to begin with. You should learn the difference between a national and ethnic identity.

And yes, we are the results of Turks mixing with Anatolians. Just like you are the result of Indo-Europeans mixing with Anatolians.

No you have to be relative, or else we can just all go back to the time of the first humans. You still have a sizeable amount of Turks that have identifiable ancestors/relatives that are of the assimilated ethnic group or at least identifiably were. The formation of Armenian or Greek ethnic groups for example, was done in a more natural way, while for Turkish ethnic formation was often times done in a more pressured and violent manner. For example, raping women and then Turkifying the rape children.

Ataturk had to create such a Turkish identity to avoid identity crisis among his people and unite his people under one banner. Turks were just too identifiably mixed to have an identity based on blood like most normal ethnic groups are.

[Romanion]

Another post of lots of BS. You have no idea what you are talking about. The modern Turkish identity as a national one was formed by Ataturk, the ethnic identity of the Turks however is much older than that. Just look at the various Turkish peoples outside of Turkey. How would you explain the Turks in the Balkans, Georgia and Syria and Iraq? Did Ataturk also force a Turkish identity on them? And what about the non-Turks in Turkey? How come they didn't become Turkish?

Another thing is that there is a obvious link between ethnic identity and blood in Turkey. So cut the crap.

No you need to cut the crap. The Turks in neighbouring countries are monorities compared to the native population and the saem goes for enthic Turks in Turkey. Attaturk declared all musims in anatolia to be "Turkish", and it worked with the notable exception of the kurds. Who are fighting to liberate their country.

Turkic peoples do have a notable genetic trait, and in turkey it is abour 6-8%.

[Romanion]

Turks did refer to themselves as Turks but they also identified with their tribal identities. Like I said, it's not a coincidence that there are Turks but also non-Turkish muslims in Turkey but also in the former Ottoman Empire living. These ethnic groups can never be the reason for one man.



Actually, all ethnic Turks untill so far showed Central Asian ancestry. While other surrounding populations didn't most of the time. Tell me, how is that possible if mixing wasn't the main reason for the Turkification? Was it a coincidence that the Turks who mixed with the Oghuz Turks got Turkified but those who didn't, did not? Use your brain for ones.

Well alot of Greeks in to Ottoman empire spoke Turkish, are they central asian? No, Turkish was the language of law in the courts and administration, Greek was the language of trade. People learned to speak both. Now I hope I didn't ruin your bubble.

[Mosov]

No you need to cut the crap. The Turks in neighbouring countries are monorities compared to the native population and the saem goes for enthic Turks in Turkey. Attaturk declared all musims in anatolia to be "Turkish", and it worked with the notable exception of the kurds. Who are fighting to liberate their country.

Turkic peoples do have a notable genetic trait, and in turkey it is abour 6-8%.

Turku may have an identity crisis, be gentle on her lol

[Mosov]

Here's an interesting paper regarding forced assimilation of Kurds and other ethnic groups in Turkey:


This article examines the implementation of the Turkish state ideology as a tool for
persuading and assimilating the Kurds and other ethnic and linguistic groups.
Existing studies emphasize that the Kurds were subjected to a systematic forced
assimilation campaign by the new Kemalist state. This paper stresses that the
formation of Turkey after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire is the root to
understanding the ideological foundation of the Turkish state’s denial of the Kurds,
their history, language and even their existence. This has huge implications for
Turkey’s claims to secular democracy, its regional stature and aspirations to join the
European Union.

http://www.londonmet.ac.uk/fms/MRSite/acad/dass/ISJ%20Journal/V3N2/05_Mountain%20Turks_Sagnic.pdf

[Azalea]

No you have to be relative, or else we can just all go back to the time of the first humans. You still have a sizeable amount of Turks that have identifiable ancestors/relatives that are of the assimilated ethnic group or at least identifiably were.

Yes, we have those Turks. Should not be so suprising since we were the last rulers in Anatolia and the Balkans. Those recent assimilated people come naturally. However, you can find the same assimilated people in Greece. Like the Arvanites, the Turkic Gagauz etc.


The formation of Armenian or Greek ethnic groups for example, was done in a more natural way, while for Turkish ethnic formation was often times done in a more pressured and violent manner. For example, raping women and then Turkifying the rape children.

What a nonsense! Turkifying the raped children? How did that happen? Turks raped Armenian women and the children born out of those rapes were forced to learn Turkish? Do you have any idea what you are saying? :D Really, if you want to make such claims, you should come up with sources. For example, if rape was one of the reason for the Turkification of Anatolia, that would show in our DNA today. Central Asian Y-DNA would be higher than mtDNA. While ironically, Central Asian Y-DNA is as much common as Central Asian mtDNA. Did you know that my mtDNA is of CA origin while my father's Y-DNA is West Asian? How did that happen? My barbaric Siberian Turkic grandmother raped my poor Armenian/Greek grandfather?


Ataturk had to create such a Turkish identity to avoid identity crisis among his people and unite his people under one banner. Turks were just too identifiably mixed to have an identity based on blood like most normal ethnic groups are.

A national identity is necessary in every country. Jesus Christ. Our national identity was not more necessary than the Greek or Armenian national identity. Besides, most Turks were already ethnic Turk and I even have DNA to back this up. Another thing is that we are not more mixed than our neighbours . You can repeat that we are very mixed 938493 times but it isn't going to change anything about the fact that we don't show any more mix than our neighbours (except for Central Asian admixture).

[Azalea]

Turku may have an identity crisis, be gentle on her lol

Here, this is what I mean? What the hell are you talking about? The only one I see here having a crisis with my identity are you people. I am Turkish and perfectly aware of that. While it's you guys who attack my identity. So tell me, who's having a crisis? You or me?

[Azalea]

Well alot of Greeks in to Ottoman empire spoke Turkish, are they central asian? No, Turkish was the language of law in the courts and administration, Greek was the language of trade. People learned to speak both. Now I hope I didn't ruin your bubble.

No, because they are not Turks either. You don't get the point. It's not about speaking Turkish only. It's a combination of things. It's language, ancestry and self-identification. The ethnic Turks don't speak Turkish only, but they also self-identify as Turk simply because that's what they learned from their ancestors. Most of the Turks don't know of any other ancestry than Turkish and therefore are considered ethnic Turks. DNA test show that those Turks also have CA ancestry unlike mixed Turks or non-ethnic Turkish people like the Laz, Georgians, Hemshins, Kurds, Arabs, Pomaks, Greeks etc.

[Romanion]

Here, this is what I mean? What the hell are you talking about? The only one I see here having a crisis with my identity are you people. I am Turkish and perfectly aware of that. While it's you guys who attack my identity. So tell me, who's having a crisis? You or me?

I wasn't talking about you in particular but the Turkish nation in general. If you do have that central asian gene good for you. If I get tested and find I have germanic genes in the same percentage can I call myself German? Interesting things to think about.

[Azalea]

Here's an interesting paper regarding forced assimilation of Kurds and other ethnic groups in Turkey:



http://www.londonmet.ac.uk/fms/MRSite/acad/dass/ISJ%20Journal/V3N2/05_Mountain%20Turks_Sagnic.pdf

This is after the modern state was born. The Turkish state did force the Kurds to assimilate by forbidding their language and denying their presence. However, it failed massively. Which again shows me that you can not force people into becomming a Turk and that becomming a Turk is much more complex than being 'forced' or speaking Turkish only.

[Azalea]

I wasn't talking about you in particular but the Turkish nation in general. If you do have that central asian gene good for you. If I get tested and find I have germanic genes in the same percentage can I call myself German? Interesting things to think about.

Jesus christ, how many times do I have to repeat myself? It's a combination of things, not language or genes only. DNA was just another example because the Turks who carry this DNA are also the Turks who speak Turkish and don't know of any other ancestry than Turkish - so again, ethnic Turks. The fact that ethnic Turks show CA ancestry unlike their neighbours shows me that mixing played a big role in the Turkification of these people. No matter if it was 10% or 40%.

[Romanion]

No, because they are not Turks either. You don't get the point. It's not about speaking Turkish only. It's a combination of things. It's language, ancestry and self-identification. The ethnic Turks don't speak Turkish only, but they also self-identify as Turk simply because that's what they learned from their ancestors. Most of the Turks don't know of any other ancestry than Turkish and therefore are considered ethnic Turks. DNA test show that those Turks also have CA ancestry unlike mixed Turks or non-ethnic Turkish people like the Laz, Georgians, Hemshins, Kurds, Arabs, Pomaks, Greeks etc.

I get the point, there are Turks that have folk tales and such dating back centuries, if you are one of these congrats. But it cannot be said that every turk has these, nor the events and reforms attaturk implemented made people who only referred to themselvs as muslims suddenly become a Turk.

[Romanion]

Jesus christ, how many times do I have to repeat myself? It's a combination of things, not language or genes only. DNA was just another example because the Turks who carry this DNA are also the Turks who speak Turkish and don't know of any other ancestry than Turkish - so again, ethnic Turks. The fact that ethnic Turks show CA ancestry unlike their neighbours shows me that mixing played a big role in the Turkification of these people. No matter if it was 10% or 40%.

But its not even 10%, its around 6-8% lol, if I get tested and I have 8% northern European genes for whatever reason, by your logic I can call myself northern European. And this 6-8% doesn't even count for everyone in Turkey, I'm sorry it doesn't. I'm not going to argue with you anymore because you don't understand modern nationalism and state building.

[Joe McCarthy]

Attempting to deny a people their identity has been said to be akin to genocide in some quarters.

[Azalea]

But its not even 10%, its around 6-8% lol, if I get tested and I have 8% northern European genes for whatever reason, by your logic I can call myself northern European. And this 6-8% doesn't even count for everyone in Turkey, I'm sorry it doesn't. I'm not going to argue with you anymore because you don't understand modern nationalism and state building.

In my case, it's close to 14% Mongoloid admixture. That's huge when you consider that the original Oghuz Turks were not even fully Mongoloid. To give you an example, the modern Oghuz Turks in Central Asia (Turkmens) have a Mongoloid admixture of around 15-20% on average. Get what I mean?

Anyway, the average Turk shows around 7% Mongoloid admixture on average, so the actual Oghuz admixture in Turks is probably higher. Dienekes' estimates the average Oghuz admix in modern Turkish people to be around 15%. But most of this is based on speculation. Besides I don't think the actual number matters much. Even if it was only 10% or 50%. We see that it was enough to Turkify the Turkish people. :)

Oh and your knowledge isn't exactly great either lol.

[Azalea]

Attempting to deny a people their identity has been said to be akin to genocide in some quarters.

Agreed with this. Wether it's people denying my identity or Turkish people denying other peoples identity, it's wrong. Very wrong.

[Loki]

In my case, it's close to 14% Mongoloid admixture. That's huge when you consider that the original Oghuz Turks were not even fully Mongoloid. To give you an example, the modern Oghuz Turks in Central Asia (Turkmens) have a Mongoloid admixture of around 15-20% on average. Get what I mean?

Anyway, the average Turk shows around 7% Mongoloid admixture on average, so the actual Oghuz admixture in Turks is probably higher. Dienekes' estimates the average Oghuz admix in modern Turkish people to be around 15%. But most of this is based on speculation.

Also, I don't think the actual number matters much. Even if it was only 10% or 50%. We see that it was enough to Turkify the Turkish people. :)

Point taken :)

[morski]

Thats true. When my family was there, it was a part of Macedonia, not Bulgaria.

You def do not know what you are talking about. Source or GTFO!

[Arsen_]

...The modern Turkish identity as a national one was formed by Ataturk, the ethnic identity of the Turks however is much older than that...


Ottomans were imperial nation, and they were creating not a national state but a Khalifat with Sultan as a Muslim religious leader. And Ottomans had never identified themselves ethically, only religiously and before Ataturk there was never such thing existed like "ethnic identity of the Turks".

Learn your own history and read some books written by your writers. For example read the book of Karasmanoglu "Stranger", where grandfathers of today's Turks fought for there identity of those times and said: We are not Turks! We are Muslims!

Or for example read the book of Halide Edip "Kill the Whore" and you'll find out that you yourself for your todays statements about "Turkish identity" 90 years ago would be lynched exactly by those people to whom you now try to impose that identity.

[Azalea]

Ottomans were imperial nation, and they were creating not a national state but a Khalifat with Sultan as a Muslim religious leader. And Ottomans had never identified themselves ethically, only religiously and before Ataturk there was never such thing existed like "ethnic identity of the Turks".

Thanks for stating the obvious. I already said that the Ottomand didn't care for ethnic identity. However, the Turks themselves used to identify with their tribel names before the nation was formed. Even know a lot of Turks do. The Ottomans were not the one and only Turkic rulers in Anatolia. There were so many regional Turkic tribes who ruled.

The other Turkish rulers of Anatolia, these are only the major tribes. There were several other tribes.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Anadolu_Beylikleri.png/800px-Anadolu_Beylikleri.png


Learn your own history and read some books written by your writers. For example read the book of Karasmanoglu "Stranger", where grandfathers of today's Turks fought for there identity of those times and said: We are not Turks! We are Muslims!

Show me actual parts of the book where Turks say they aren't Turks.


Or for example read the book of Halide Edip "Kill the Whore" and you'll find out that you yourself for your todays statements about "Turkish identity" 90 years ago would be lynched exactly by those people to whom you now try to impose that identity.

What the hell are you talking about? If you want to use some books to back you up in this discussion then you should quote actual parts of the books.

*I am out now. Will respond to you later.

[Onur]

What the hell are you talking about? The only one I see here having a crisis with my identity are you people. I am Turkish and perfectly aware of that. While it's you guys who attack my identity. So tell me, who's having a crisis? You or me?
Spot on, Türkü.

It`s something like the fact that most gay-bashers are gays themselves. Their pathological case is something similar to that. Bunch of delusional people with Albanian/Vlach speaking grandparents but thinking like they are supposedly the descendants of Homer&Achilles. More surprisingly, they are babbling to us like "your turkism is just a romantic fantasy" !!!


Thanks for stating the obvious. I already said that the Ottomand didn't care for ethnic identity.
Yes, they didn't care much but this was also a deliberate policy to maintain unity between all the different kind of people living in 3 different continents but under the Ottoman regime. This was some kind of necessity otherwise if Ottoman rulers would have express Turkish identity instead of religious tags, then they could not possibly continue their dominance for 600+ years.

I mean, empires doesnt work like today`s nation states. No sane emperor claims single ethnicity in the 3 different continents, millions of km2 territories, that would be illogical. It was something like common Roman identity expressed by all that different tribes, people lived among them like greeks, germanic peoples, africans, asians etc.

[Romanion]

Ottomans were imperial nation, and they were creating not a national state but a Khalifat with Sultan as a Muslim religious leader. And Ottomans had never identified themselves ethically, only religiously and before Ataturk there was never such thing existed like "ethnic identity of the Turks".

Learn your own history and read some books written by your writers. For example read the book of Karasmanoglu "Stranger", where grandfathers of today's Turks fought for there identity of those times and said: We are not Turks! We are Muslims!

Or for example read the book of Halide Edip "Kill the Whore" and you'll find out that you yourself for your todays statements about "Turkish identity" 90 years ago would be lynched exactly by those people to whom you now try to impose that identity.

Its called nationalism and romanticism. People don't fully understand what process of nation building because it is to a degree artificial and thus does not get taught very often. Nations will like to point out some facts while supressing others to push a certain idea about ethnicity, culture, ect. So Turku would like to state Turkish customs in Ottoman times as the norm but it wasn't. People did like to 'brag' about a Turkic warrior ancestor, but many didn't. Turks in Ottoman times called themselves muslims. Turkish language was spoken by the subjects of the sultan, not because they were turks but because it was the language of the state. Attatruk declared every muslim a turk, and modern turkey was born.

Now we can have a serious scientific historical discussion or we can not. But if we are to have a serious discussion on scientific hisotry, we need to talk more directly, and not take things so personal. If you get offended by anythign I say its better to refute it was objective data then emotions to try to rally support.

[Romanion]

Spot on, Türkü.

It`s something like the fact that most gay-bashers are gays themselves. Their pathological case is something similar to that. Bunch of delusional people with Albanian/Vlach speaking grandparents but thinking like they are supposedly the descendants of Homer&Achilles. More surprisingly, they are babbling to us like "your turkism is just a romantic fantasy" !!!

Yes Modern Greeks do decend from Arvanites and vlachs as well as other minority ethnicities that became Greek. The Greeks that refute this are nationalisitc.

Maybe its time you realize this about turkey.

[Arsen_]

Show me actual parts of the book where Turks say they aren't Turks.

What the hell are you talking about? If you want to use some books to back you up in this discussion then you should quote actual parts of the books.



As they say in Russia: Я не занимаюсь ликбезом (ликвидацией безграмотности)! :D

In English it would sound something like this: My job is not a liquidation of your ignorance! :D )

So instead of talking nonsense here read those books and educate yourself!

[Azalea]

Its called nationalism and romanticism. People don't fully understand what process of nation building because it is to a degree artificial and thus does not get taught very often. Nations will like to point out some facts while supressing others to push a certain idea about ethnicity, culture, ect. So Turku would like to state Turkish customs in Ottoman times as the norm but it wasn't. People did like to 'brag' about a Turkic warrior ancestor, but many didn't. Turks in Ottoman times called themselves muslims. Turkish language was spoken by the subjects of the sultan, not because they were turks but because it was the language of the state. Attatruk declared every muslim a turk, and modern turkey was born.

Turkish was not the language of the state in the Ottoman Empire. The Ottomans spoke Ottoman which was a mixture of Turkish, Persian and Arabic. The normal people spoke Turkish which wasn't much different from the Turkish we speak right now. And if you go to the page before, you'll see that declaring everything as Turk didn't work and that the assimilation process of the state failed massively. Which again shows that 'declaring everyone as Turk' or deniying their language and identity is not enough to Turkify people.

And yes, nationalism wasn't present as much as it is now, but this doesn't mean that people didn't know what they were.


Now we can have a serious scientific historical discussion or we can not. But if we are to have a serious discussion on scientific hisotry, we need to talk more directly, and not take things so personal. If you get offended by anythign I say its better to refute it was objective data then emotions to try to rally support.

Actually, I was being serious and talking about scientific data while most of your claimes are based on emotional buthurtnes.

[Mosov]

Yes, we have those Turks. Should not be so suprising since we were the last rulers in Anatolia and the Balkans. Those recent assimilated people come naturally. However, you can find the same assimilated people in Greece. Like the Arvanites, the Turkic Gagauz etc.


Turkification has been a much more aggressive ethnic process over the period of time.


What a nonsense! Turkifying the raped children? How did that happen? Turks raped Armenian women and the children born out of those rapes were forced to learn Turkish? Do you have any idea what you are saying? :D Really, if you want to make such claims, you should come up with sources. For example, if rape was one of the reason for the Turkification of Anatolia, today that would show in our DNA. Central Asian Y-DNA would be higher than mtDNA. While ironically, Central Asian mtDNA is as much common as Central Asian mtDNA. Did you know that my mtDNA is of CA origin while my father's Y-DNA is West Asian? How did that happen? My barbaric Siberian Turkic grandmother raped my poor Armenian/Greek grandfather?

Yes, this happened for example as a result of the Harams where Turks when often or servants at the house, and also forcible marriages and subsequent rape which happened rather often. Basically at the beginning you had a small force of Turkish hordes that in coming to the region raped and pillaged in order to lay the groundworks for a people speaking a Turkic language in the area.




A national identity is necessary in every country. Jesus Christ. Our national identity was not more necessary than the Greek or Armenian national identity. Besides, most Turks were already ethnic Turk and I even have DNA to back this up. Another thing is that we are not more mixed than our neighbours . You can repeat that we are very mixed 938493 times but it doesn't going to change anything about the fact that we don't show any more mix than our neighbours (except for Central Asian admixture).

No Armenian and Greek identities are based on common ethnic ties through culture, blood, and history, while the assimilated nature of the Turkish identity makes it necessary for there to be a lose thing like citizenship or language to tie up the whole ethnic group. Just read that paper regarding forcible Turkish assimilation of Kurds that I posted. That's the mindset that's been prevalent.

[Azalea]

As they say in Russia: Я не занимаюсь ликбезом (ликвидацией безграмотности)! :D

In English it would sound something like this: My job is not a liquidation of your ignorance! :D )

So instead of talking nonsense here read those books and educate yourself!

You should learn how to discuss. You can not dictate me first and then say 'go educate yourself'. I am well educated and if you disagree with me, you should come up with actual sources to prove me wrong. Saying that I should educate myself isn't enough. If you don't want to bother yourself with searching for actual arguments and sources, then don't respond to me in the first place.

[Mosov]

Attempting to deny a people their identity has been said to be akin to genocide in some quarters.

They can identify however they want. They can identify from Mars for all we care. We just are laying down the facts of this Turkish identity construct.

[Romanion]

[QUOTE]Turkish was not the language of the state in the Ottoman Empire. The Ottomans spoke Ottoman which was a mixture of Turkish, Persian and Arabic.

You're playng the game of semantics, this is what I mean. Greek people spoke this lanugage as well, along with bulgarians serbs, ect.


And yes, nationalism wasn't present as much as it is now, but this doesn't mean that people didn't know what they were.

Are you refering to a modern concept of identitides or a pre-modern concept. Read primary sources of Ottoman subjects before western european ideas were introduced. People identitifed on religious grounds. Turkic pride was also evident, people did like to brag about having a turkic ancestor because it was thought to raise priestige, but this was not the norm.




Actually, I was being serious and talking about scientific data while most of your but also the other ones, are based on emotional buthurtnes.

I thought you took it personally that I was "denying" your identity. You can call youself whatever you want if it makes you happy. I have an aunt that looks Turkic, like CA turkic, that prob means I have CA genes as well, but I won't get buthurt about it, because I know modern nationalities are on one level or another artificial.

[Hevneren]

So do other European nations. Russians have done more harm to Europe in recent year than Turks. There is little reason why Turkey shouldn't join an organization like the EU or be accepted as European.

I think you should leave the decision of whether Turkey should join the EU or not to people in EU member states. I don't think you as an American can fully understand the dynamics between European nations and the challenges facing the European Union. :shrug:

[Mosov]

Turkey joining the EU is a fantasy.

[Kanuni]

Turkey joining the EU is a fantasy.

No it is not.

[Mosov]

No it is not.

Tell me with a straight face that Europeans would agree to Turkey entering their political union.

[Hevneren]

Europe is a blurry cultural entity with vague borders. Geographically it should merely be apart of Asia, or "Eurasia" if you prefer that term.

Europe was named that millennia ago, and along comes an American on an Internet forum and wants to change its name? :lol:

[Joe McCarthy]

Tell me with a straight face that Europeans would agree to Turkey entering their political union.

The only people really preventing it are Sarkozy and Merkel, and to a lesser extent, Austria. Most EU member states favor Turkish accession, with often heavy majorities among the populations of those states favoring it. Indeed, majorities often exceeding that which exists in Turkey itself.

[Arsen_]

You should learn how to discuss. You can not dictate me first and then say 'go educate yourself'. I am well educated and if you disagree with me, you should come up with actual sources to prove me wrong. Saying that I should educate myself isn't enough. If you don't want to bother yourself with searching for actual arguments and sources, then don't respond to me in the first place.

Are you serious??? I have already given you all the necessary information! Name of author, name of book and what is written there. What else do you need???

Isn't it obvious to you that I can give you quote only in Russian cos I read it in Russian. So instead of reading the book in your native language you ask me to give you quote in Russian??? It's really funny! :D

OK, here you are:

http://tipatip.net/forum/topic/--2011-08-10-7.htm

ТУРЕЦКАЯ ЛИТЕРАТУРА НА РУССКОМ ЯЗЫК

Чужак — Якуб Кадри Караосманоглу

"А мы не турки, мой бей".
"Кто же вы?"
"Мы, слава Аллаху, мусульмане".

My translation:

We are not Turks.
And who are you?
Thanks Allah we are Muslims

[Romanion]

The only people really preventing it are Sarkozy and Merkel, and to a lesser extent, Austria. Most EU member states favor Turkish accession, with often heavy majorities among the populations of those states favoring it. Indeed, majorities often exceeding that which exists in Turkey itself.

This is true, but on a more pratical level, Turkey will need to reform its government and systems as dictated by the chapters of european acension, as well as sign some agreemetns it finds to be counter-intuative to their soveriegnty. This EU process of Turkey could just have been a smoke screen to subdue the military in politics in Turkey. Erdogan is a very cunning man.

[Mosov]

The only people really preventing it are Sarkozy and Merkel, and to a lesser extent, Austria. Most EU member states favor Turkish accession, with often heavy majorities among the populations of those states favoring it. Indeed, majorities often exceeding that which exists in Turkey itself.

Having the two of the most powerful countries in EU opposing Turkish membership is not something to overlook. But it's not only those states, but also Europeans not wanting Turkey to be in the same union and being fearful of it.

[Queen B]

Having the two of the most powerful countries in EU opposing Turkish membership is not something to overlook. But it's not only those states, but also Europeans not wanting Turkey to be in the same union and being fearful of it.

And even if there was no opossition by Germany or France, there is Cyprus. Cyprus will never let it happen.

[Mosov]

And even if there was no opossition by Germany or France, there is Cyprus. Cyprus will never let it happen.

That too, Turkey has many issues to deal with before being seriously considered for EU membership, starting with the Kurdish problem, to human rights, to Cyprus issue and so forth...

[Joe McCarthy]

Having the two of the most powerful countries in EU opposing Turkish membership is not something to overlook. But it's not only those states, but also Europeans not wanting Turkey to be in the same union and being fearful of it.

If Sarkozy goes down, and he might, Turkey's biggest obstacle will be removed.

[Mosov]

If Sarkozy goes down, and he might, Turkey's biggest obstacle will be removed.

Don't be so certain that whoever replaces him will be supportive of Turkey coming in. Public opinion is against Turkish admission and politicians will not want to anger their public. I don't even think Turkey wants admission either. They even threatened to cut all ties with EU if Cyprus (an EU member) took the rotating presidency. lol...

[Queen B]

I don't even think Turkey wants admission either. They even threatened to cut all ties with EU if Cyprus (an EU member) took the rotating presidency. lol...
If they don't want admission, then why they just don't withraw their candidancy? (I killed the word, I m sure).

I m bored to read that Turks don't want to enter, Turkish politician being all arrogant that they don't even care, and yet, mantain the candidate status.

[Romanion]

Don't be so certain that whoever replaces him will be supportive of Turkey coming in. Public opinion is against Turkish admission and politicians will not want to anger their public. I don't even think Turkey wants admission either. They even threatened to cut all ties with EU if Cyprus (an EU member) took the rotating presidency. lol...

Turkish government says alot of things just for public consumption. They even threatened to annex nothern Cyprus if talks for unification don't succeed. So they are trying to bully Cyprus into a pro-turkish deal, but it won't work. Cyprus has military defence agreements with Russia, France, Greece, and Israel. No one will recognzise northern Cyprus is apoart of Turkey.

[Romanion]

If they don't want admission, then why they just don't withraw their candidancy? (I killed the word, I m sure).

I m bored to read that Turks don't want to enter, Turkish politician being all arrogant that they don't even care, and yet, mantain the candidate status.

Maintaining candidate status alows them to push through political reforms they would not be able before. The military is subdued as so is the juditiary. EU accension was a front.

[Kanuni]

Turkey will enter EU no matter what some people here think.

[Queen B]

Turkey will enter EU no matter what some people here think.

that's a dream, only :lol:

[Kanuni]

that's a dream, only :lol:

I wonder which one is dreaming.

Turkey is politically very important for EU/USA.They will rather want to see them joining their rank.

[Romanion]

I wonder which one is dreaming.

Turkey is politically very important for NATO/USA.They will rather want to see them joining their rank.

Fixed this for you.

[Onur]

Turkey will enter EU no matter what some people here think.
No we wont enter EU because there will be no EU soon.

According to the official EU polls, about 72% of Turkish people responds negatively about EU for the last 3 years. Therefor, we will never be a member of it. It`s an undemocratic, semi-federalistic but a fake union based on political fantasies and governed by few elites in Brussels anyway.

Why would we? To bail out lazy greek asses, so they can continue to break dishes in Salonika taverns? No, thats the French and Germans duty. Turkey is the 5th biggest economy among all EU states according to the GDP values, so if we would be in EU right now, Turkey would have to massively contribute ECB funds. Do you think Turkish people would like to give their taxmoney to the Greeks?


If they don't want admission, then why they just don't withraw their candidancy? (I killed the word, I m sure).
It`s not that easy, smartypants. We have agreements with EU since 1959. We are waiting for EU to do that, so we can file for our losses in EU customs union and go to the case to get compensation. Turkey will freeze all EU nonsense during the rogue state`s so-called presidency term. So we are trying our best to provoke them to finish our EU adventure for everyone`s good

[Queen B]

I wonder which one is dreaming.

Turkey is politically very important for EU/USA.They will rather want to see them joining their rank.

- Every country in Eu, has the power to veto.
Is impossible for Turkey to be accepted when they don't recognise another member of EU, when they don't accept borders, and neither Cyprus will ever accept the country that illegaly occupied a part of Cyprus.
That's one very important factor.

-Also, Turkey is a very big country, and based on its population, it will get more seats to EU parliament than any country except Germany. I doubt that France, or any other big country will accept Turkey to have more power and push their own agenda, over theirs.
Turkey is not Bulgaria or any other small populated country, to do no harm

- Although Turkey as a state has a good economy, the Turks are having a poorer quality of life than the fellow Europeans. There will be a massive ''immigration'' if that happens. And we all know that Turks are not the ''favorite'' for Germans and Austrians.

Those problems can't be overcomed, like human rights, or Copenhagen criteria.

[Romanion]

No we wont enter EU because there will be no EU soon.

According to the official EU polls, about 72% of Turkish people responds negatively about EU for the last 3 years. Therefor, we will never be a member of it. It`s an undemocratic, semi-federalistic but a fake union based on political fantasies and governed by few elites in Brussels anyway.

Why would we? To bail out lazy greek asses, so they can continue to break dishes in Salonika taverns? No, thats the French and Germans duty. Turkey is the 5th biggest economy among all EU states according to the GDP values, so if we would be in EU right now, Turkey would have to massively contribute ECB funds. Do you think Turkish people would like to give their taxmoney to the Greeks?


It`s not that easy, smartypants. We have agreements with EU since 1959. We are waiting for EU to do that, so we can file for our losses in EU customs union and go to the case to get compensation

Don't count your chickens before they hatch. Turkey's growth is fuel by internal demands and cheap borrowing costs. The Debt/GDP of turkey is approaching 110% and Turkey has a large trade imbalance. Greece's debt/GDP is now lower than TUrkey's, but Greece overall debt is astranomical. Turkey is using unorthodox central bank policies and has porblems with inflation and a decreasing lira. Turkey's overall GDP is large but its Per Capital is not to different from balkan states. Turkey's dependence of imported energy and FDI can be its achilles heel.

[Queen B]

Why would we? To bail out lazy greek asses, so they can continue to break dishes in Salonika taverns?
The custom of breaking plates have died 30 years ago.
Plus, Greeks, are more hardworking that your fellow countrymen.:coffee:

No, thats the French and Germans duty.
That's true. Its German's and France's duty. Its Germans and French that sell to Greece their old military equipment in enormous prices, when we are technically allies and they should protect us from our Muslim ''neighbors''.


Do you think Turkish people would like to give their taxmoney to the Greeks?
Turkey should first give their tax money to Turks, so they can improve their own well-being and quality of life.
You might dream of how good economy your country has , so you can ... contribute (:lol:), but first take care of your people. Mexico is also part of G20, but that doesn't mean anything :wink

[Onur]

Plus, Greeks, are more hardworking that your fellow countrymen.:coffee
After this sentence, i am living you with your hellenic fantasy world, bye.. :D


G20 means nothing, you are 15.000 year old pretty hellenes, Turkey`s economy is bad while yours is good, greek national identity is also 15.000 year old too [your daddy spoke albanian but nvm, his 15th generation granddaddy was a greek soldier by the alexander!!!]
..........
...................
...............

[Queen B]

? lol !! :D
After this sentence, i am living you with your hellenic fantasy world, bye.. :D

Well, I think Turkey IS part of OECD, isn't?
Those are not words of my mind, but rankings from OECD.
We might not be productive, but that doesn't mean we are not hardworking.



G20 means nothing,
G20 means something, but not that you are the good-old-rich people that you are not going to help those poor-lil-starving Greeks are you want it to be.

you are 15.000 year old pretty hellenes,
I know
:coffee:


Turkey`s economy is bad while yours is good
Typical behavior when someone has nothing to say. Putting words to my mouth that I haven't say, trying to mock me. Its not very clever to do though.
I never ever wrote that our economy is good. What I wrote, is that having a high state GDP doesn't constitute a good economy, and more even to brag about helping Greece :lol:


greek national identity is also 15.000 year old [your daddy spoke albanian but nvm, his 15th generation granddaddy was a greek soldier by the alexander]..........
...................
...............
Well, in order to know what my daddy speak, then you must know him :coffee:

[Mosov]

Turkish booming economy won't last long with the currency bubble that will be slowly forming.

[Trun]

Turkey will enter EU no matter what some people here think.

May I call you a doctor?


Turkey is politically very important for EU/USA.They will rather want to see them joining their rank.

Important for EU? In which way? Another throat for being fed?


Turkey is the 5th biggest economy among all EU states according to the GDP values, so if we would be in EU right now, Turkey would have to massively contribute ECB funds.

But I think you are aware Turkey will be the most populated country in the EU?
And the money Turkey would give are not that much in comparison to the money Turkey would have to receive :rolleyes:

Also, Turkey has this kind of "regional economy poles" common also in Russia. Very developed regions (Istanbul, Izmir, Bursa) and very undeveloped regions (most parts of Anatolia).

[Crn Volk]

When exactly there was a country named Macedonia, before Fyrom that claims that name,and was created in 1991.??? :lol:

Socialist Republic of Macedonia - look it up. Prior to that - Kingdom of Macedonia, Roman Province of Macedonia....

[Joe McCarthy]

They can identify however they want. They can identify from Mars for all we care. We just are laying down the facts of this Turkish identity construct.

Well, the definition of cultural genocide as employed by Raphael Lemkin (ironically a guy Armenians love to cite in speaking of their own Shoah) is any action designed to deprive a people of their integrity as distinct peoples or their ethnic identities.

There has clearly been an effort on this thread to try and undermine and deprive the Turks of their ethnic identity, in pursuance of an agenda that is all too obvious. I personally find it very disturbing.

[Crn Volk]

Attempting to deny a people their identity has been said to be akin to genocide in some quarters.

Agreed. The Greeks do this to their minorities - Macedonians, Turks, Vlachs, Albanians...

[RagnarLodbrok666]

I recently joined here and i have to say that the number of threads and msgs about Turks here are really astonishing. Are we european, white, black, mongol or not, which one of the so-called European people looks like Turks at most etc. and all other nonsense. It`s like Turks are supposedly the only nation who mingled with neighboring people and all others in Europe are not!

I mean, whats with all that fuss about us? Do you really think Turkey`s ethnic diversity is so much different any other country in central Europe, Balkans, Caucasus?

The level of ethnic diversity in Turkey is not much different than any other Balkan or central European countries. It`s just Greeks, Bulgarians, Austrians, French etc. tends to cover up this issue, then enforce assimilation policies to the foreign elements. The level of diversity might be even higher for people like Greeks (incl. Cypriots), Russians, Bulgarians, Romanians etc.

Theres asiatic and mycenean greek origins for the Turks. Who cares? why all of the debate over this? Its frivolous. Not much of a case for discussion unless talking about how much of a good ally the Turks would be for the Hungarian's militarily.

[Mosov]

Well, the definition of cultural genocide as employed by Raphael Lemkin (ironically a guy Armenians love to cite in speaking of their own Shoah) is any action designed to deprive a people of their integrity as distinct peoples or their ethnic identities.

There has clearly been an effort on this thread to try and undermine and deprive the Turks of their ethnic identity, in pursuance of an agenda that is all too obvious. I personally find it very disturbing.

Lol no one is depriving a people of anything. Equating what we are saying regarding Turkish identity to cultural genocide is truly ridiculous. Turks are a result of assimilated ethnic groups in the region, assimilation coming both through forced and unforced means. To say that is somehow false or is cultural genocide is laughable. Saying that Turkish identity coming from Ataturk is greatly emphasised on citizenship rather than blood (like most other ethnic groups) is somehow cultural genocide is also equally laughable. So please learn about the subject at hand before blindly posting.

[Joe McCarthy]

Lol no one is depriving a people of anything. Equating what we are saying regarding Turkish identity to cultural genocide is truly ridiculous. Turks are a result of assimilated ethnic groups in the region, assimilation coming both through forced and unforced means. To say that is somehow false or is cultural genocide is laughable. Saying that Turkish identity coming from Ataturk is greatly emphasised on citizenship rather than blood (like most other ethnic groups) is somehow cultural genocide is also equally laughable. So please learn about the subject at hand before blindly posting.

Uh huh. After all, we know Armenians don't have an anti-Turkish agenda or anything. Your explanation is wholly believable. :rolleyes:

Sorry for interrupting a perfectly good blood feud with facts. Let's just say that if I were a Turk I'd sooner be in the coils of a python than at the mercy of an Armenian.

[Romanion]

There has clearly been an effort on this thread to try and undermine and deprive the Turks of their ethnic identity, in pursuance of an agenda that is all too obvious. I personally find it very disturbing.

What is this evil agenda? I would like to hear it.

[Mercury]

I didn't read most of the thread, but I caught the conversation between Loki & the Turkish member here. I have to say I have to agree with the Turk. It doesn't matter if Turks are truly Turkified Hellinized Hittites/Armenians/Thracians/whatever. Everyone has had a foreign culture, religion, and language imposed on them at some point in European history. Ironically enough, race and ancestry sometimes plays little role in ethnicity.


Europe was named that millennia ago, and along comes an American on an Internet forum and wants to change its name? :lol:

Yes, and in ancient days people thought there was an Atlantis or a Fountain of Youth. The whole point of Science (and Geography is a Science) is to update with time. Europeans largely thought of themselves as a continent separate from Asia because they didn't want to be lumped in with brown people. My whole point was Europe is a cultural entity that has some blurry borders, and is definitely not a separate geographical entity.

[Sikeliot]

What is this evil agenda? I would like to hear it.

Those of us, like myself, who maintain that Turks are simply some combination of Ancient Greek, Armenian, and Hittite with some minor Mongoloid mix.

[Mosov]

Uh huh. After all, we know Armenians don't have an anti-Turkish agenda or anything. Your explanation is wholly believable. :rolleyes:

Sorry for interrupting a perfectly good blood feud with facts. Let's just say that if I were a Turk I'd sooner be in the coils of a python than at the mercy of an Armenian.

What the f is anti-Turkish about what we are saying? lol Did the Turkish race just beam out of the sky and form Turkey? As I said, please learn about the formation of the Turkish identity and people before commenting.

It's also funny you defend a country whose people hate your country so much....

[Joe McCarthy]

It's also funny you defend a country whose people hate your country so much....

I'm no fan of Turkey, but there is a distinctly fanatical tone to the anti-Turkish agenda of Armenians. It is dangerous, and it doesn't take much discernment to detect it.

[Romanion]

Those of us, like myself, who maintain that Turks are simply some combination of Ancient Greek, Armenian, and Hittite with some minor Mongoloid mix.

Yes, this is very evil. Think of the children! :eek:

On a more serious note, discussing the ethnogenesis of the Turkey, or any state for that matter, is not bad. Where it may appear bad is when the nationalistic history clashes with objective history and there are serious differences. Misunderstanding on the modern nation state and the formation of nationalities, is I think, something not well understood.

[Mosov]

I'm no fan of Turkey, but there is a distinctly fanatical tone to the anti-Turkish agenda of Armenians. It is dangerous, and it doesn't take much discernment to detect it.

What's being said here is not anti-Turkish and its not part of some "fanatical tone" of some agenda. I don't understand why you insist on with your uncalled for epithets, when what is being said reflects the truth. The ethnogenesis of Turks is something you should learn more about if you are labelling us saying that Turks are a result of assimilated folks in the region as "anti-Turkish agenda"....

[Mosov]

More on Turkish Ethnogenesis:


Let me get back to Turkey. As the historian Kemal Karpat has written,(8) “[t]he imperial policy of Mehmed II and the pressure to follow a more Orthodox Islamic line after the conquest of Syria and Egypt in 1516-1517 combined to relegate ethnic and linguistic differences among Muslims to a very subordinate position as identifying characteristics.” Consequently, “the emphasis on religion as the foundation of the community... reduced the bases of the appeal of ethnic and linguistic consciousness.” Furthermore, “throughout the existence of the Ottoman state, in all its censuses, the Muslims were listed as one group and never categorized according to ethnic or linguistic differences.” As a result, “[t]he individual Muslim citizens gradually came to identify themselves with this new entity [a relatively cohesive political-social unit that outwardly appeared as the new Ottoman Muslim nation], formed of different tribes and ethnic groups but having Islam as its binding ideology and Turkish as its official language. This was the territorial state, the motherland, the vatan, to which, ideally, all the Muslims would pledge allegiance and loyalty.”

[StonyArabia]

Turks have considerable Central Asian influence, just as much as the Maltese have Arabian influence the difference the latter got Christianized and now is seen as European.

[Mercury]

Those of us, like myself, who maintain that Turks are simply some combination of Ancient Greek, Armenian, and Hittite with some minor Mongoloid mix.


They are. Problem is just about every single population of Europe is mixed just as heavily and speaks a language that their ancestors didn't invent. Hell, most West Europeans are of Pre-Indo-European descent yet speak Indo-European descended languages. I don't see how it's a big deal Anatolians just happen to speak a Central Asian language.

[Crn Volk]

They are. Problem is just about every single population of Europe is mixed just as heavily and speaks a language that their ancestors didn't invent. Hell, most West Europeans are of Pre-Indo-European descent yet speak Indo-European descended languages. I don't see how it's a big deal Anatolians just happen to speak a Central Asian language.

It's true, Celtic lands were invaded by waves of Germanic, Nordic, and Hunnic tribes, not to mention the more recent African, Middle Eastern and Asian peoples....

[Nairi]

Those of us, like myself, who maintain that Turks are simply some combination of Ancient Greek, Armenian, and Hittite with some minor Mongoloid mix.

Armenian Kingdoms of Armen and Hayasa were contemporary Kingdoms to Hittite,Sumer and Akkadians in whose inscreptions we are mentioned.
When Turks invaded our region Hittites were gone centuries before some of them becoming part of Armenian nation. What Turks got in Armenian Hihgland and Anatolia were Armenians and Greeks and they are as you said the result of assimialtion of these nations plus mixing with others. Turks have no connection to Hittites, their only "connection" is via Armenians.

[Teyrn]

It makes people feel warm inside to type furiously on their keyboard to other people who they'll most likely never meet.

http://www.pridelands.org/~simba/pics/random/internet_serious_business_call.jpg

[Mosov]

They are. Problem is just about every single population of Europe is mixed just as heavily and speaks a language that their ancestors didn't invent. Hell, most West Europeans are of Pre-Indo-European descent yet speak Indo-European descended languages. I don't see how it's a big deal Anatolians just happen to speak a Central Asian language.

The ethnic character of let's say Germans, French, or Italians differs from the ethnic character of Turks. It was just in the early 1900s that the concept of Turkish identity was formed. Before that the Turkish identity if you could call it, was very weak and loose. Also the assimilation process among Turks was much more rapid and aggressive than among European groups. And among European ethnic groups you have a more exclusive character based on common blood heritage. Turkish identity just had to accommodate its differing ethnogenesis.

[Queen B]

Agreed. The Greeks do this to their minorities - Macedonians, Turks, Vlachs, Albanians...

Hahaha. I have already comment about it in another thread, so I am bored to do it again now (see the ''Macedonian'' minority in Bulgaria thread)
Hilarious claims by fyromians again tho :lol:

[Onur]

Uh huh. After all, we know Armenians don't have an anti-Turkish agenda or anything. Your explanation is wholly believable. :rolleyes:.
Armenians and Greeks are obsessive about Turks because they are getting indoctrinated to hate us from very early ages. Anti-Turkish ideas are the biggest part of their so-called national identity. Thats why their hate is boiling for some events happened between them and Turks 100-150 years ago but they live with these feelings like it supposedly happened yesterday.

Thats the case about Ottoman era but you can never see a Greek talking about the half million Greeks died because of deliberate starving policy during German occupation in WW-2. Thats the result of selective thinking and false indoctrination by state institutions and church. It`s same for Armenians too. They invaded Azerbaijani territory in 1992 and most of their external borders are closed for 20 years because of this. They lost their 1/3rd of their population and most of their people are starving and living under harsh economical conditions but they don't care about this at all because turkish hate is their food&water, thats the only thing they need in their lives anyway.

So, don't bother with them. We are dealing with them for years and we are used to it. They wont stop `till they spew all their hate due to their obsession towards us. Ofc this also created some kind of inferiority complex in them, thats why they are trying to undermine everything about the Turks by saying stupid things like "greek economy is still better than turkey, there were no turks `till the last 80 years" etc. because they cant stand the fact that they were our subjects and lived under our domain for ~800 years. Even the thought of this makes them go mad.

[Wanderlust]

Armenians and Greeks are obsessive about Turks because they are getting indoctrinated to be hate us from very early ages. Thats why their hate is boiling for some events happened between them and Turks 100-150 years ago but they live with these feelings like it supposedly happened yesterday.



So, don't bother with them. We are dealing with them for years and we are used to it. They wont stop `till they spew all their hate due to their obsession towards us and inferiority complex.

Untrue.

[Queen B]

Thats true. When my family was there, it was a part of Macedonia, not Bulgaria.


When exactly there was a country named Macedonia, before Fyrom that claims that name,and was created in 1991.??? Socialist Republic of Macedonia - look it up. Prior to that - Kingdom of Macedonia, Roman Province of Macedonia....

(I didn't see the answer earlier so...)

I specifically asked when there was a COUNTRY named that way.
So, instead of
''Socialist Republic of Macedonia - look it up. Prior to that - Kingdom of Macedonia, Roman Province of Macedonia''
Its actually Yugoslavia - Kingdom of Yugoslavia - Ottoman empire (Skopje and Monastir villayets) - Byzantine empire - Roman empire - Paionia

[Queen B]

Armenians and Greeks are obsessive about Turks because they are getting indoctrinated to be hate us from very early ages. Thats why their hate is boiling for some events happened between them and Turks 100-150 years ago but they live with these feelings like it supposedly happened yesterday.
Not obsessive, neither indoctrinated to hate you. Unless there is a nationalistic group, average Greeks have no bad feelings for TODAY'S Turks.
That's why many go for tourism there, Turkish TV series are redicoulously popular, etc etc.
However, you can't expect that someone that have victims of Turkish atrocities within his family, to forget it.
Yes, my family included. I don't forget that, but its not YOU (the modern Turk) my problem. Neither you are responsible for that.
I would argue on that, if we talk about it, but I wont blame YOU.


Thats the case about Ottoman era but you can never see a Greek talking about the half million Greeks died because of deliberate starving policy during German occupation in WW-2. Thats the result of selective thinking and false indoctrination by state institutions and church.
Says who?


So, don't bother with them. We are dealing with them for years and we are used to it. They wont stop `till they spew all their hate due to their obsession towards us and inferiority complex.
A Greek having inferiority complex over a Turk? That's the best joke ever :lol:

[Onur]

Not obsessive, neither indoctrinated to hate you. Unless there is a nationalistic group, average Greeks have no bad feelings for TODAY'S Turks.
That's why many go for tourism there, Turkish TV series are redicoulously popular, etc etc.
I was mostly talking about your state institutions and church, not the ordinary people. The ordinary people are just victims of their Turkish hate policy.

Ofc you gonna like our series or other stuff because as much as you deny, you cant change the fact that our cultures are so similar. This is same for the Turks too, they are also interesting and enjoying cultural stuff about Greece.


However, you can't expect that someone that have victims of Turkish atrocities within his family, to forget it.
Yes, my family included. I don't forget that, but its not YOU (the modern Turk) my problem. Neither you are responsible for that.
I would argue on that, if we talk about it, but I wont blame YOU.
This is same for us too. About 2 million Turks died and 4 million of them forcefully expelled out to Turkey between 1878-1923 from Balkans&Greece. You also invaded Anatolia in 1919 and this caused about ~300.000 more Turkish civilian deaths. The difference between us is we get along with it and closed that chapter in our history but you couldn't, cant and probably wont because of your state&church`s indoctrination.

As long as you continue to represent yourself as supposedly the sole victims, then this stupid charade will continue. This is same for the Armenians too.

[Queen B]

I was mostly talking about your state institutions and church, not the ordinary people. The ordinary people are just victims of their Turkish hate policy.
Ι think you didn't read correctly. Ordinary people don't hate Turks. So talking about Turkish hate policy, makes no sense.


Ofc you gonna like our series or other stuff because as much as you deny, you cant change the fact that our cultures are so similar. This is same for the Turks too, they are also interesting and enjoying cultural stuff about Greece.
Depends of what you mean as ''culture''. If its music and food, yes, then its similar. But culture is not only defined by that.
Btw, Mexican soap operas were very popular in Greece as well, are we culturally similar to Mexicans,too ?
:cool:


This is same for us too. About 2 million Turks died and 4 million of them forcefully expelled out to Turkey between 1878-1923 from Balkans&Greece. You also invaded Anatolia in 1919 and this caused about ~300.000 more Turkish civilian deaths. The difference between us is we get along with it and closed that chapter in our history but you couldn't, cant and probably wont because of your state&church`s indoctrination.

:lol:


As long as you continue to represent yourself as supposedly the sole victims, then this stupid charade will continue. This is same for the Armenians too.
As long as you continue to deny your atrocities, then the stupid charade will continue, that's true.

[Romanion]

Armenians and Greeks are obsessive about Turks because they are getting indoctrinated to hate us from very early ages. Anti-Turkish ideas are the biggest part of their so-called national identity. Thats why their hate is boiling for some events happened between them and Turks 100-150 years ago but they live with these feelings like it supposedly happened yesterday.

Thats the case about Ottoman era but you can never see a Greek talking about the half million Greeks died because of deliberate starving policy during German occupation in WW-2. Thats the result of selective thinking and false indoctrination by state institutions and church. It`s same for Armenians too. They invaded Azerbaijani territory in 1992 and most of their external borders are closed for 20 years because of this. They lost their 1/3rd of their population and most of their people are starving and living under harsh economical conditions but they don't care about this at all because turkish hate is their food&water, thats the only thing they need in their lives anyway.

So, don't bother with them. We are dealing with them for years and we are used to it. They wont stop `till they spew all their hate due to their obsession towards us. Ofc this also created some kind of inferiority complex in them, thats why they are trying to undermine everything about the Turks by saying stupid things like "greek economy is still better than turkey, there were no turks `till the last 80 years" etc. because they cant stand the fact that they were our subjects and lived under our domain for ~800 years. Even the thought of this makes them go mad.

Alot of rambings with no facts, common in your posts I find. I wouldn't expect anything less from Armenians who muslims in Anatolia tried to wipe out systematically. And yes the Turkish nation is only 80 years old along with "Turkism" among all muslims there. You yourself, a pomak, is a Turk and an example of this.

Counter to what you think, any animosity Greeks have towards Turks today has more to do with current political disputes than events 100 years ago, but trying to frame Greek in this way you try to tip toe around the current imperialistic attitude of Turkey.

Don't be mad bro.

[пустиняк]

Socialist Republic of Macedonia - look it up. Prior to that - Kingdom of Macedonia, Roman Province of Macedonia....

Kingdom of Macedonia - you mean the Greek state of Alexander and Philip or what ?

[Mosov]

Armenians and Greeks are obsessive about Turks because they are getting indoctrinated to hate us from very early ages. Anti-Turkish ideas are the biggest part of their so-called national identity. Thats why their hate is boiling for some events happened between them and Turks 100-150 years ago but they live with these feelings like it supposedly happened yesterday.

Thats the case about Ottoman era but you can never see a Greek talking about the half million Greeks died because of deliberate starving policy during German occupation in WW-2. Thats the result of selective thinking and false indoctrination by state institutions and church. It`s same for Armenians too. They invaded Azerbaijani territory in 1992 and most of their external borders are closed for 20 years because of this. They lost their 1/3rd of their population and most of their people are starving and living under harsh economical conditions but they don't care about this at all because turkish hate is their food&water, thats the only thing they need in their lives anyway.

So, don't bother with them. We are dealing with them for years and we are used to it. They wont stop `till they spew all their hate due to their obsession towards us. Ofc this also created some kind of inferiority complex in them, thats why they are trying to undermine everything about the Turks by saying stupid things like "greek economy is still better than turkey, there were no turks `till the last 80 years" etc. because they cant stand the fact that they were our subjects and lived under our domain for ~800 years. Even the thought of this makes them go mad.

That's a load of BS. What is being said here is regarding the ethnogensis of Turks not the historical disputes that exist between Turks and Greeks, Armenians. If you aren't man enough to address those points, than stop whining here. As for people "dying of starvation" in Armenia. You really have no clue about situation of Armenia, so if I was you I would just stop talking before humiliating myself.

and talking about "obsessive hatred" I would look in the mirror, or rather the streets of Istanbul where you have racist pigs saying such things:


nternational news agencies reported that 20,000 to 50,000 people participated in the anti-Armenian protests over the weekend, with professionally printed signs that read, “You are all Armenians, You are all bastards,” and “Today Taksim, Tomorrow Yerevan: We will descend upon you suddenly in the night.” Among the speakers at the demonstration in Turkey’s famous Taksim Square was Turkish Interior Minister Idris Naim Sahin, among other leaders of Erdogan’s AK Party.

[Incal]

Being a big country, doesn't necesserely mean that your economy is good, to start.
In the g20, there are also Mexico,Brasil and Indonesia, that doesn't mean anything...:coffee:
Before ''helping'' Greeks, first raise your quality of life, gdp per capita, freedoms... :coffee:

Look at this link's graphic:

http://oecdbetterlifeindex.org/

Guess what the smallest 'flower' is lol.

[StonyArabia]

^ It means nothing because Turkey has been booming since then, and it's economy is improving fast, and not only that it has and is moving to becoming a true Eurasian tiger, and due to this there has been reverse migration.

http://blogs.sungard.com/ten/efficiency/turkey-the-rising-eurasian-tiger/

http://export.by/en/?act=news&mode=view&id=38571

[purple]

Sure, Turkey is a pain in the ass for Armenians, Greeks, Bulgarians and now Germans.

[Queen B]

^ It means nothing because Turkey has been booming since then,
Since when?
Statistics of OECD are updated very often, not once in some years or even not once a year.

Anyway, I don't doubt that Turkey, as a country doesn't produce, or doesn't have a high national GDP (after all, is a very big country), what I wrote is that high GDP, doesn't equate a high quality of life,high per capita GDP or that the country is actually rich, or at least that rich, so people can live in illusions that they are rich enough to help us !
But, people prefer to chose what they want to chose out of your writings, twist them, and create their own imaginary dialog:coffee:

[Mosov]

Sure, Turkey is a pain in the ass for Armenians, Greeks, Bulgarians and now Germans.

Well Germany is getting their labourers from Turkey so I wouldn't say it's a pain for them, I guess a pain for the skinheads there.

[ficuscarica]

Labourers from Turkey? I hope this is a joke. Related to their total number Turks get many times more social welfare than Germans. The Turks basically RUIN the German economy.
By the way they didn´t come to rebuild Germany, Spaniards and Italians did. Turks came much later, when Germany was already prospering. The Americans urged the Germans to take more Turks to reduce the unemployment in Turkey. Due to stupid laws they were later able to bring their whole family with them. Now we have millions of Turks and a large number receives social welfare, doesn´t accept our constitution and lives in a parallel society. Also, a much higher percentage of Turks is criminal.

It was one of the biggest mistakes in the history of Germany to get those Turks in.

[Mosov]

Labourers from Turkey? I hope this is a joke. Related to their total number Turks get many times more social welfare than Germans. The Turks basically RUIN the German economy.
By the way they didn´t come to rebuild Germany, Spaniards and Italians did. Turks came much later, when Germany was already prospering. The Americans urged the Germans to take more Turks to reduce the unemployment in Turkey. Due to stupid laws they were later able to bring their whole family with them. Now we have millions of Turks and a large number receives social welfare, doesn´t accept our constitution and lives in a parallel society. Also, a much higher percentage of Turks is criminal.

It was one of the biggest mistakes in the history of Germany to get those Turks in.

Germany hired those labourers in large numbers. You guys really must have been clueless if you didn't know Turks breed at a higher rate than Europeans and that Turkish assimilation was not really going to happen. But I thought Germany loved Turkey, you guys have always been allies, even Germans helped Turks exterminate the Christians in the Ottoman Empire.

[ficuscarica]

We didn´t hire them. The politicians tricked us. First of all the NATO/US urged us to take some to reduce the unemployment rate in Turkey as Turkey was a NATO member and they wanted to show the Turks how they support them as allies. They were not needed for the German economy. How could they? - Most of them were underqualified. Opposed to what we were told they didn´t leave after two years, instead laws were made that allowed Turks to take their families to Germany, one Turk thus brought five more with him. Also, many Turks go to Turkey to find a wife there.
The majority of Germans never wanted this to happen. But unfortunately they were stupid enough to elect parties that lied to them. But Turkish immigration was neither neccessary, nor useful, nor wanted by the majority of the population. They damage our economy by getting billions of Euros of social welfare, they are much more criminal than Germans on average, they look down on us although they came here uneducated and poor and they still would be, if we wouldn´t pay them for sitting around doing nothing and despising us. It´s one of the greatest tragedies in the last decades of German history. A terrible mistake.

[Onur]

We didn´t hire them. The politicians tricked us. First of all the NATO/US urged us to take some to reduce the unemployment rate in Turkey as Turkey was a NATO member and they wanted to show the Turks how they support them as allies. They were not needed for the German economy. How could they? - Most of them were underqualified. Opposed to what we were told they didn´t leave after two years, instead laws were made that allowed Turks to take their families to Germany, one Turk thus brought five more with him. Also, many Turks go to Turkey to find a wife there.
The majority of Germans never wanted this to happen. But unfortunately they were stupid enough to elect parties that lied to them. But Turkish immigration was neither neccessary, nor useful, nor wanted by the majority of the population. They damage our economy by getting billions of Euros of social welfare, they are much more criminal than Germans on average, they look down on us although they came here uneducated and poor and they still would be, if we wouldn´t pay them for sitting around doing nothing and despising us. It´s one of the greatest tragedies in the last decades of German history. A terrible mistake.
You don't know shit about this matter.

Yes, you specifically needed unqualified people who can do hard work in factories. Maybe you forgot but in 1950, your country, especially Berlin was looking like a stoneage village because of British and USSR bombardment in WW-2 and it was divided by Russians. A generation of your young men was dead already. You had no one to work in factories.

From 1960 to 1980, there was no visa regime between western Germany and Turkey. Germans called immigrants from Turkey to fix their ruined economical condition. The only requirement for getting stay and work permit for Germany was to be healthy and having health certificate to prove that. That was all.

It was obvious that the hard jobs was waiting them in Germany so people who had a simple job in Turkey or people who had some education didn't even try to go there. It was mostly the ignorant and poor people gone there and about half of them was Kurds who identified themselves as Turks but lately they are calling themselves as Kurds again. Ofc these people responded Germany`s call otherwise why the hell someone with a decent job in Turkey would leave beautiful mediterranean sun and goes to Germany to work hard and clean their shit?

So these people did their dirty work and contributed their industrial development post-WW2 but Germans don't need them anymore, so they wanna dump `em now like a thrash now. But for the last 5 years, immigration trend totally reversed. Now more people coming from Germany to Turkey.

[Petros Houhoulis]

I recently joined here and i have to say that the number of threads and msgs about Turks here are really astonishing. Are we european, white, black, mongol or not, which one of the so-called European people looks like Turks at most etc. and all other nonsense. It`s like Turks are supposedly the only nation who mingled with neighboring people and all others in Europe are not!

I mean, whats with all that fuss about us? Do you really think Turkey`s ethnic diversity is so much different any other country in central Europe, Balkans, Caucasus?

The level of ethnic diversity in Turkey is not much different than any other Balkan or central European countries. It`s just Greeks, Bulgarians, Austrians, French etc. tends to cover up this issue, then enforce assimilation policies to the foreign elements. The level of diversity might be even higher for people like Greeks (incl. Cypriots), Russians, Bulgarians, Romanians etc.

Basically, the Turks are not even Turks. The real Turks are the Turkmen... Slanty eyed fellas...

All of the others are at least partially Greeks, partially Bulgarians, partially French, e.t.c. e.t.c.

[Azalea]

Turkmens are pretty close to us in both looks and genetics. If Turkmens are the real Turks, thern we are at least 60% real Turkish.

Not that I take this BS about 'real Turks' and 'CA Turkic peoples are the purest Turks' serious. But just going by your logics.

Oh and how much Indo-European are you again?

[Petros Houhoulis]

I think it`s because of some kind of inferiority complex and probably they cant stand the fact that they have been governed by the Turks for about 300-500 years (especially for the Balkan states). Nevertheless, it`s astonishing to see that how frequent everyone here talks about that.

Smartarse, we've been ruled by Rome for double that period of time and yet we have no bad feelings to them or an inferiority complex towards your ilk. You see the Romans were great builders and promoters of culture, they improved the world quite a lot, unlike some Turanic horse-raiders. That could not have been possible if ever took the time to look at your achievments like *fighting* and *gardening*, not to mention GENOCIDES until at least the beginning of the 21st century...


Yes it was unpleasant for the last 100 years of Ottoman era but there was not much bloodshed at all, for the first ~400 years.

Well, there was too much slavery to allow for bloodshed. There is a popular joke about a Muslim fella stopping a couple in the middle of their way and ordering the man "not to move because he would kill him" and then proceed to rape the woman... and while the woman was visibly distressed after the affair, the man was quite pleased because "well, I moved and he didn't kill me!" That was the life of all non-Muslims in the Ottoman empire because NONE OF THEM COULD PROSECUTE A MUSLIM IN ANY COURT OF LAW and the non-Muslims had to convert or face fear and intimidation for all of their lives...


Also, all empires were oppressive in some way and Ottoman empire was not unique in that. Roman, Austro-Hungaro, British, French empires was not less oppressive than Ottoman.

None of them have been more bloody and less civilized than the Ottomans. Few of them are accused by nearly all of their neighbors for barbarosity to the point of genocide... Even the slaves in those states had more rights than the non-Muslim "citizens" of the Ottoman empire.


But so what? The amount of bloodshed during the last years of Ottoman era was not even 1/10th of the WW-2 but i don't see French or Polish here moaning about the Germans, at least not in same amount.

The most of the WWII was a fair contest between armed combatands, not a slaughter of civilians, especially YOUR OWN CIVILIANS. The only exception being the Germans' concentration camps. This is how they started: "Wer redet heute noch von der Vernichtung der Armenier?"

Either if Hitler spoke these words or not, it is certain that he knew what happened to the Armenians at 1915. Today the Germans know what happened in Auschwitz and Mauthausen-Gusen, only the Turks do not know what happened between Armenia and Cilicia at 1915 or even in their own Kurdistan at the 1990's:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/24/world/kurds-are-finally-heard-turkey-burned-our-villages.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm


Human rights groups here say Turkish security forces destroyed as many as 4,000 villages and hamlets and displaced hundreds of thousands of Kurds. The villages were burned during the ferocious war between the Turkish government and Kurdish rebels. More than 30,000 people died.


That was not 1915, not even the 1940's. It was more like yesterday, and you don't even know it. You don't accept anything... Well, almost:

http://www.todayszaman.com/news-263658-pm-erdogan-apologizes-over-dersim-massacre-on-behalf-of-turkish-state.html


Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has apologized for a 1937 massacre in the predominantly Alevi region of Dersim on behalf of the Turkish state, but said the main opposition Republican People's Party (CHP), which was the only political party at the time, is the actual culprit and called on the party's current leader to apologize for the incident on behalf of the CHP.


If someone starts counting the massacres, he/she shall simply lose count:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Turkey

These are the ones we know so far, and they do not include much of the Ottoman era. Otherwise we could also talk about the Ilinden massacres, for example...

Ever heard of any of those massacres Turkified fella? How many of them can you... Deny??? Remember, they do NOT ban people for quoting wikipedia in here, and thus you shall have a hard time engaging with me in here, unlike the other forum where you had the playing field alone...




Also i see that you are from Russia, our "bloody history" was not even close to the USSR days either when we consider what communists did, all that mass expulsions, massacres upon tatars, circassians, division of Germany for ~30 years and all that communist oppressions upon millions of people.

Actually the Russians have bothered to acknowledge those events, which were committed by a couple of Georgian fellas (Stalin-Beria). The division of Germany was not bad compared to what the Ottomans did wherever they went. At least Germany was able to reunite again...


I find it rather interesting that while most of people today forgot what happened during WW-2 but what was happened during the last years of Ottoman era are still kept alive just like it was yesterday, even after 100+ years.

Because you are the only ones who not only deny the historical truth, but you keep conducting massacres and burning villages as usual...


I mean, Greeks are still organizing commemorations for few 100 people died in a particular town in 1820s but they don't even remember the ~500.000 people died because of deliberate starving policy during the German occupation ~60 years ago.

Oh yes, we do remember these German policies. We also rememeber that Greece was allied with Turkey Romania and Yugoslavia in a Balkan pact. Guess who didn't honor this treaty at WWII: You agreed that if a Greek army fled to seek refuge in your lands you would not remove its' weapons, but assist it, something that you did not with the army which fled the Evros prefecture towards Turkey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_Pact

[Petros Houhoulis]

So do other European nations. Russians have done more harm to Europe in recent year than Turks. There is little reason why Turkey shouldn't join an organization like the EU or be accepted as European.

The Turks shall never enter the E.U. because they don't think European. They are more Muslims than Europeans, and closer to Saudi Arabia than any European state...

[Onur]

Basically, the Turks are not even Turks. The real Turks are the Turkmen... Slanty eyed fellas...

All of the others are at least partially Greeks, partially Bulgarians, partially French, e.t.c. e.t.c.
At least we are "partly" Greeks, Bulgarians [real bulgars was turkic people anyway] but you neo-hellenes are "mostly" Albanians (aka Arvanites), Vlachs, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Turks (google for gagauz, urum tatars, karamanlides).

And most of us were using Turkish as a mothertongue for at least 1000 years but most of your ancestors was speaking Albanian, Turkish and Romanian `till 1900s.

Our history is based on living facts but not based on presumed connections with people from antiquity with a 2000 year old unknown gap.

[GeistFaust]

The fuss is warranted, because the Turks are a Non-Indo-European people, and practice Islam despite it is secularized. They are descended from barbaric and war mongerering people from the East who pillaged and tore all that was good about that part of the world and Islam.

I respect the more secularized and Westernized Turks, but they are not European in bloodlines or religion. This is a reason to be particularly concerned, and I think that people from the Balkans, Greece, and the rest of Europe, especially Central Europe should be upset.

Their ancestors fought against the Turks who harassed their peoples and lands, which are now plagued by them such as the once majestical lands of Germany and England. Don't get me wrong I respect them, but Europe must become free, and only can once they embrace their true and authentic identity, and allow more Nationalistic sentiment to crop up.

[Petros Houhoulis]

No, in fact there is little reason for Turkey "to join" EU. It`s a non functioning semi-federate, undemocratic organization ruled by few elites in Brussels.

I prefer a dictator from Brussels to a Pasha from Ankara. Speaking of democracy... Did you manage to grow coffee?


"Two things do not thrive in our country: One is the coffee tree and the other is democracy. Both are foreign."

Aziz Nesin - Turkish satirtist.




And no, Turkey is not European. We are culturally both European and Asian just as represented by our position in world map. But more importantly, we don't need anyone`s acceptation to be European. Europe is just a continent just like Asia, Africa, Australia, nothing else. It`s not a nation nor ethnicity no matter how much EU elites desires the other way around.

Just stay where you are. Don't infest us with your massacres anymore...


No no, for a small reason of Turkey would be one of the biggest contributor to the ECB`s fund for helping Greeks and other bankrupt EU states in the future, due to our total GDP among EU states. Thats why we will never join EU.

You sound like that retard minister of health of yours who rejected blood donations from Greece and any donations from Armenia during the last earthquake at 1999, and before that he demanded that all apprentice nurses took a virginity test... A VIRGINITY TEST!!!

http://www.meforum.org/106/turkeys-political-earthquake


The official who dominated most news reports in those days was not the president, prime minister, or military chief of staff. He was one Osman Durmu_, an obscure politician who since the formation of Ecevit's government a few months earlier had been minister of health. Since taking office he had concentrated mainly on the quiet work of dismissing bureaucrats and hospital administrators so that they could be replaced by cronies from his far-right political party, Nationalist Action. Then, in the days after the quake, he showed himself to be one of those narrow-minded nationalists who have done so much over so many years to keep Turkey locked inside its fantasy-world shell. First he declared that Turkey needed no foreign aid for earthquake relief because it could handle everything perfectly well by itself. Then he said that even if aid was accepted, none should come from Armenia; that earthquake victims should be especially careful to refuse any blood sent from Greece; and that there was no need for portable toilets in the devastated region because many mosques had sanitary facilities, and anyway the Sea of Marmara was close by. These comments provoked a fury, including calls for his resignation, but he proudly stayed in office. No senior figure reprimanded him. The closest he came to an apology was to concede that if he were one day on the edge of death, he would be willing to accept blood from a Greek or Armenian donor.

http://articles.cnn.com/2002-02-28/world/turkey.virgins_1_virginity-tests-health-minister-osman-durmus-disciplinary-code?_s=PM:WORLD


Turkey scraps virginity tests

February 28, 2002

Turkey has overturned a controversial law that forced schoolgirls suspected of having premarital sex to undergo virginity tests.

The government issued a decree banning forced virginity tests after five schoolgirls tried to commit suicide by taking rat poison.

A number of teenage girls killed themselves each year because of the tests.

The decree came into force in 1999, but the disciplinary code governing schools that was only changed this week to remove a reference to "chastity."

The clause referring to the need for chastity remained in the disciplinary code for state schools and had been used in the past to justify forced virginity tests.

The relevant clause now says that students can be punished for "behaving in a way that is incompatible with the common values of society and in a way that would adversely affect the atmosphere of education."

The practice of forced examinations was particularly common in state-run school dormitories in rural areas of mainly Muslim Turkey, where sex before marriage is frowned upon.

In extreme cases, it is known for men to kill unmarried female relatives if they are found to have had premarital sexual relations.

Turkey is in the process of carrying out a range of reforms aimed at preparing it for membership of the European Union which is particularly concerned about human rights.

But last year, Turkish Health Minister Osman Durmus ruled as part of a code that midwife and nursing students must be virgins and could be tested to prove it.

The code, which applied to entrants at specialised medical schools, which have students aged 13 to 17, outraged feminist groups.

Durmus also caused controversy when he rejected foreign blood donations after the devastating earthquake that shook north-western Turkey in August, 1999, killing more than 20,000 people.

He claimed the donations would "pollute" the victims.

Durmus also refused to send Turkish blood samples for a proposed international blood bank for leukaemia victims, saying "foreigners will unravel our genetic codes."



Who the hell wants your money Turkified fella? Judjing from the money that you reserved for your own needs...


...In what seemed like a very cruel joke, the government's earthquake-relief fund was found to contain the equivalent of just four dollars and forty-five cents.

Spare me the crap and get back to Asia where you belong, and take all of the Tatars and Turans with you please! Take also the virginity tests with you!!!


Bordering Iraq, Iran? You can be sure that the other EU states is not that happy atm, to have a border with a so-called "stable" state like Greece with millions of immigrants, anarchists and non-existent economy. Turkey is not that happy either but we get along with it.

All of those illegal immigrants arrive from Turkey, and before that they get a ticket from any Arab state without a visa... supposedly for Tourism... So tell me, what harm has all this instability in the Greek aconomy has done to you dear? Perhaps the immigrants are no longer willing to pay your people to trnasfer them to Greece and you lose money from that?



WTF you are talking about? Greek patriarch was personally attending the Cyprus, Rhodes and Crete campaigns to bless janissary soldiers to defeat catholics in those islands and crush the Pope`s domain in favor of Greek orthodoxy. The patriarch came to Cyprus during the siege to speak few remaining Greeks in the island to convince them to help to the Turks and against the catholics.

"Greek" Patriarch? The exact term is Rum (Rumeli) patriarch and if he did not attend to his duties...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_Gregory_V_of_Constantinople


Gregory V (Γρηγόριος Ε΄, born Georgios Angelopoulos) was Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople from 1797 to 1798, from 1806 to 1808 and from 1818 to 1821. He was responsible for much restoration work to the Patriarchal Cathedral of St George, which had been badly damaged by fire in 1738. At the onset of the Greek War of Independence, as Ethnarch of the Orthodox Millet Gregory V was blamed by Ottoman Sultan Mahmud II for his inability to suppress the Greek uprising, even though he had actually condemned the Greek revolutionary activities. He was taken out of the Patriarchal Cathedral on Easter Sunday, 1821, directly after celebrating the solemn Easter Liturgy, and hanged (in full Patriarchal vestments) for three days from the main gate of the Patriarchate compound by order of the Sultan; his body was then taken down and delivered to a squad of Jews who were forced to drag it through the streets and finally threw it into the Bosphorus.[1]. The body was later recovered by Greek sailors and was eventually enshrined in the Metropolitan Cathedral of Athens. He is commemorated by the Orthodox Church as an Ethnomartyr (Greek: Εθνομάρτυρας).

In his memory, the Saint Peter Gate, once the main gate of the Patriarchate compound, was welded shut in 1821 and has remained shut ever since.


...And this guy actually did condemn the revolution too...

[Azalea]

The Turks shall never enter the E.U. because they don't think European. They are more Muslims than Europeans, and closer to Saudi Arabia than any European state...

Message to Onur: 'Konuşma cahille olursun cahil'

When someone makes a comment like this, it's time to stop discussing with that person. It's clear that this person knows jackshit about Turkey. I don't believe Turkey is European in culture nor mentality (whatever that is), but saying that Turkey is closer to Saudi Arabia than to any European state is probably one of the most idiotic comments in this thread.

[Queen B]

Message to Onur: 'Konuşma cahille olursun cahil'


Since this is not a regional sub-forum, there is no reason to speak in public, with a non-English language. Personal messages are doing the job as well.

[Petros Houhoulis]

I said that we are partly European and Asian as well but we are definitely not european in the sense described by the elites of EU. Actually this is valid for some other so-called "european countries" too but they usually tend to forget it. Greece is one of them and other Balkan states too. Your religion and most of your culture belongs to the oriental world but you just pretend that you are not so. Thats the difference between us, we accept who we are but you don't.

The real difference is that even those who proclaim themselves Christians in here, are not so proficiant in Christianity and are dead against several of the provisions of the Old Testament. We have somewhat flexible beliefs... In any case, we are not as much bloody as you are.


Well, i find the number of ~30.000 very questionable because Cyprus was just a seaport used by the catholics since the days of crusaders. They were using these islands as some kind of base for converting Greeks, Armenians and other orthodoxs to catholism. Thats why Greek patriarch was cheering for Turkish victory at that time. I don't think there was that many civilians living there except the relatives of the catholic knights.

No dear, there were that many civilians living there and yes, your folks killed Christian Orthodox and Catholics alike, because both of them opposed you ferociously.


Worst massacre of the 16th century? lol, i bet 20.000 wasn't even the number of women who has been burned alive on a stake by the catholic witch hunters at that time.

In fact the witches were far fewer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Inquisition#Punishment


The inquisitors generally preferred not to hand over heretics to the secular arm for execution if they could persuade the heretic to repent: Ecclesia non novit sanguinem. For example, Bernard Gui, a famous inquisitor working in the area of Carcassonne (in modern France), executed 42 people out of over 900 guilty verdicts in fifteen years of office. Execution was to admit defeat, that the Church was unable to save a soul from heresy, which was the goal of the inquisition.


Hayduk, i cant speak bulgarian. My family came to Turkey during Balkan wars.

Yes, there was some converted bulgarians but not all of them, most was Turkish people. Remember, before 1878, Turkish population was at least half of the bulgaria.

...And they are all Slanty eyed Turkmen who all arrived from Central Asia... Who are you kidding Tataroid?


Also, i can say same to you, maybe your grandparents were gagauz turkish? 100.000s of christian gagauz assimilated in Bulgaria in the last century and your government still giving free bulgarian passports to the gagauzs of Moldova, by claiming that they are supposedly bulgarian despite their turkish mothertongue attested for ~1000 years.

Those Gagauz were forcibly Turkified too...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Message to Onur: 'Konuşma cahille olursun cahil'

When someone makes a comment like this, it's time to stop discussing with that person. It's clear that this person knows jackshit about Turkey. I don't believe Turkey is European in culture nor mentality (whatever that is), but saying that Turkey is closer to Saudi Arabia than to any European state is probably one of the most idiotic comments in this thread.

You need a virginity test ASAP. Maybe that will get your senses back...

http://articles.cnn.com/2002-02-28/world/turkey.virgins_1_virginity-tests-health-minister-osman-durmus-disciplinary-code?_s=PM:WORLD


Turkey scraps virginity tests

February 28, 2002
Turkey has overturned a controversial law that forced schoolgirls suspected of having premarital sex to undergo virginity tests.

The government issued a decree banning forced virginity tests after five schoolgirls tried to commit suicide by taking rat poison.

A number of teenage girls killed themselves each year because of the tests.

The decree came into force in 1999, but the disciplinary code governing schools that was only changed this week to remove a reference to "chastity."

The clause referring to the need for chastity remained in the disciplinary code for state schools and had been used in the past to justify forced virginity tests.

The relevant clause now says that students can be punished for "behaving in a way that is incompatible with the common values of society and in a way that would adversely affect the atmosphere of education."

The practice of forced examinations was particularly common in state-run school dormitories in rural areas of mainly Muslim Turkey, where sex before marriage is frowned upon.

In extreme cases, it is known for men to kill unmarried female relatives if they are found to have had premarital sexual relations.

Turkey is in the process of carrying out a range of reforms aimed at preparing it for membership of the European Union which is particularly concerned about human rights.

But last year, Turkish Health Minister Osman Durmus ruled as part of a code that midwife and nursing students must be virgins and could be tested to prove it.

The code, which applied to entrants at specialised medical schools, which have students aged 13 to 17, outraged feminist groups.

Durmus also caused controversy when he rejected foreign blood donations after the devastating earthquake that shook north-western Turkey in August, 1999, killing more than 20,000 people.

He claimed the donations would "pollute" the victims.

Durmus also refused to send Turkish blood samples for a proposed international blood bank for leukaemia victims, saying "foreigners will unravel our genetic codes."

[Onur]

Message to Onur: 'Konuşma cahille olursun cahil'

When someone makes a comment like this, it's time to stop discussing with that person. It's clear that this person knows jackshit about Turkey. I don't believe Turkey is European in culture nor mentality (whatever that is), but saying that Turkey is closer to Saudi Arabia than to any European state is probably one of the most idiotic comments in this thread.
Thanks for the advice Türkü but i already have zero intention to respond to this idiot after his latest nonsense.

He can continue to post his nonsense here for his own amusement and i wish him to have fun for the next century because of their 180% debt ratio of their ever-shrinking GDP and non-existent economy nor workforce. But i think he wont mind to that because he says that he is fine with appointed dictators from Brussels.

[The Lawspeaker]

Het is dan wel weer typerend dat de Jager MILJARDEN aan Nederlands belastingsgeld aan die frauduleuze banken/ luie Grieken heeft afgedragen. Ze hadden de poet net zo goed met hele scheepsladingen tegelijk in de Noordzee kunnen dumpen.

Err sorry: that one was for Türkü.

What I said was:

It's typical that De Jager (finance minister) has already send billions of Dutch tax payers money to the fraudulent banks and the lazy Greeks. They might just as well have loaded the cash on barges and dumped it all into the North Sea for all it's use.

[Incal]

We didn´t hire them. The politicians tricked us. First of all the NATO/US urged us to take some to reduce the unemployment rate in Turkey as Turkey was a NATO member and they wanted to show the Turks how they support them as allies.

Damn americans... Why didn't they hire them instead if they liked 'em so much?




Labourers from Turkey? I hope this is a joke. Related to their total number Turks get many times more social welfare than Germans. The Turks basically RUIN the German economy.
By the way they didn´t come to rebuild Germany, Spaniards and Italians did. Turks came much later, when Germany was already prospering. The Americans urged the Germans to take more Turks to reduce the unemployment in Turkey. Due to stupid laws they were later able to bring their whole family with them. Now we have millions of Turks and a large number receives social welfare, doesn´t accept our constitution and lives in a parallel society. Also, a much higher percentage of Turks is criminal.

It was one of the biggest mistakes in the history of Germany to get those Turks in.

You know the other day I was reading some articles about turks/muslims in Germany at the DW:

http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,15779428,00.html

http://www.dw-world.com/dw/article/0,,5655554,00.html

...and it sounds alarming.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Turkmens are pretty close to us in both looks and genetics. If Turkmens are the real Turks, thern we are at least 60% real Turkish.

Not that I take this BS about 'real Turks' and 'CA Turkic peoples are the purest Turks' serious. But just going by your logics.

Oh and how much Indo-European are you again?

Did you actually make a genetic comparison based upon DNA findings or you "just look like Turkmen"?

Sorry but "I look like this guy, this we have similar DNA" doesn't really work either for humans or animals or plants...

[Azalea]

Het is dan wel weer typerend dat de Jager MILJARDEN aan Nederlands belastingsgeld aan die frauduleuze banken/ luie Grieken heeft afgedragen. Ze hadden de poet net zo goed met hele scheepsladingen tegelijk in de Noordzee kunnen dumpen.

Err sorry: that one was for Türkü.

What I said was:

It's typical that De Jager (finance minister) has already send billions of Dutch tax payers money to the fraudulent banks and the lazy Greeks. They might just as well have loaded the cash on barges and dumped it all into the North Sea for all it's use.

Ah well, as long as Turkey doesn't join the EU, right? I mean, Greeks are Christians at least. :wink

Kidding.

[The Lawspeaker]

Ah well, as long as Turkey doesn't join the EU, right? I mean, Greeks are Christians at least. :wink

Kidding.
Ik wil Turkije graag een zetel in de EU aanbieden. De onze. :wink:coffee:

[The Lawspeaker]

The page doesn't turn. Wait.

[Azalea]

I think we'll pass this time.

Looking at Greece, Saudi Arabia doesn't sound so bad after all. :roll eyes

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/02/19/article-1358581-00FB5CF41000044C-147_472x354.jpg

http://nl.dreamstime.com/olievat-omhoog-thumb10572552.jpg

[The Lawspeaker]

I think we'll pass this time. :roll eyes
Ah please.. just sell it to Iran. :D As long as we get rid of it.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Het is dan wel weer typerend dat de Jager MILJARDEN aan Nederlands belastingsgeld aan die frauduleuze banken/ luie Grieken heeft afgedragen. Ze hadden de poet net zo goed met hele scheepsladingen tegelijk in de Noordzee kunnen dumpen.

Err sorry: that one was for Türkü.

What I said was:

It's typical that De Jager (finance minister) has already send billions of Dutch tax payers money to the fraudulent banks and the lazy Greeks. They might just as well have loaded the cash on barges and dumped it all into the North Sea for all it's use.

Sure. Maybe we should have just left all of those illegal immigrants that the Turks provide to us to move all the way to the Netherlands. We have had the bad fortune to border crisis zones with bloody conflicts (either these are the Yugoslav wars or the Turks' burning of 4.000 Kurdish villages) and we had to take care of our defenses at the moment that you were busy protecting Muslim civilians at Sarajevo (who ended up promptly in the Netherlands and elsewhere) or fighting the forces of Saddam Hussein in Iraq (from where you got busloads of immigrants too) instead of spending a dime for the defense of another European country.

Let me tell you a few things Civis Batavi:

We are not lazy, According to statistics we work more than the Dutch and the Germans. Unfortunately we are disorganized and not industrialized/sophisticated enough.

We are corrupt, but not the most corrupt in the world. Perhaps a few Dutch politicians like Hans Van der Broek (or Hans Van der Turk, as he is more famous in Greece) have been more successful at selling their political will to foreign states in order to benefit themselves (and perhaps fill the Netherlands with cheap labor, like your fellow Muslims down the road)

Meanwhile Greece had the obligation to have almost double the GDP percentage expenditure than almost all other European countries because of the Turks. Here's the catch though:

Greece did not enter the E.U. because of its' robust economy or any other significant advantages. It was granted a European future in order to disentangle it from a conflict with the Turks which has been brewing ever since 1974 (if not before) and yes, we expect the from the Turks to either get civilized or never enter the E.U.

Since the Maastrich treaty the European Union was not supposed to get only a common currency, but also a COMMON DEFENSE and FOREIGN POLICY. Did you see them... anywhere down the road? I didn't. Unfortunately we still have to spend a hell lot of money for our defense, because you won't do it (evidently Iraq has more oil and... if you were crying for the Bosnians in Sarajevo, where were you when the Turks were massacring the Kurds in the 1990's?)

No, I don't care if you load the cash on barges and throw it in the North sea. Maybe it shall be better this way. In any case we shall be the ones tasked with guarding Thermopylae all of our lives. I guess that I was lazy to spend almost 2 years of my early 20's as an army officer because it was my duty when you were probably drinking your life away at the same age. I don't expect gratitude, I just hoped that I could get some reason out of you, if that doesn't bother you so much...

[Petros Houhoulis]

At least we are "partly" Greeks, Bulgarians [real bulgars was turkic people anyway] but you neo-hellenes are "mostly" Albanians (aka Arvanites), Vlachs, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Turks (google for gagauz, urum tatars, karamanlides).

Keep dreaming. Greece has had a mixed population since prehistory, but this population has not changed dramatically ever since. Read Jared Diamonds' "Guns Germs and Steel" to comprehend when and where did a major population shift took place, and when and where a conquest could not yield such a result.


And most of us were using Turkish as a mothertongue for at least 1000 years but most of your ancestors was speaking Albanian, Turkish and Romanian `till 1900s.

Not really. Greek has been the most common language in the most of modern day Greece for millenia.


Our history is based on living facts but not based on presumed connections with people from antiquity with a 2000 year old unknown gap.

Your history is based upon consecutive massacres. It is well known from Vienna to Saudi Arabia. Even Lawrence was a more convincing Arab than you ever were in Arabia...

P.S.

I admire you for taking a principled stance of not responding at me!

[The Lawspeaker]

Sure. Maybe we should have just left all of those illegal immigrants that the Turks provide to us to move all the way to the Netherlands. We have had the bad fortune to border crisis zones with bloody conflicts (either these are the Yugoslav wars or the Turks' burning of 4.000 Kurdish villages) and we had to take care of our defenses at the moment that you were busy protecting Muslim civilians at Sarajevo (who ended up promptly in the Netherlands and elsewhere) or fighting the forces of Saddam Hussein in Iraq (from where you got busloads of immigrants too) instead of spending a dime for the defense of another European country.

Let me tell you a few things Civis Batavi:

We are not lazy, According to statistics we work more than the Dutch and the Germans. Unfortunately we are disorganized and not industrialized/sophisticated enough.

We are corrupt, but not the most corrupt in the world. Perhaps a few Dutch politicians like Hans Van der Broek (or Hans Van der Turk, as he is more famous in Greece) have been more successful at selling their political will to foreign states in order to benefit themselves (and perhaps fill the Netherlands with cheap labor, like your fellow Muslims down the road)

Meanwhile Greece had the obligation to have almost double the GDP percentage expenditure than almost all other European countries because of the Turks. Here's the catch though:

Greece did not enter the E.U. because of its' robust economy or any other significant advantages. It was granted a European future in order to disentangle it from a conflict with the Turks which has been brewing ever since 1974 (if not before) and yes, we expect the from the Turks to either get civilized or never enter the E.U.

Since the Maastrich treaty the European Union was not supposed to get only a common currency, but also a COMMON DEFENSE and FOREIGN POLICY. Did you see them... anywhere down the road? I didn't. Unfortunately we still have to spend a hell lot of money for our defense, because you won't do it (evidently Iraq has more oil and... if you were crying for the Bosnians in Sarajevo, where were you when the Turks were massacring the Kurds in the 1990's?)

No, I don't care if you load the cash on barges and throw it in the North sea. Maybe it shall be better this way. In any case we shall be the ones tasked with guarding Thermopylae all of our lives. I guess that I was lazy to spend almost 2 years of my early 20's as an army officer because it was my duty when you were probably drinking your life away at the same age. I don't expect gratitude, I just hoped that I could get some reason out of you, if that doesn't bother you so much...
You should thank your politicians for fucking you and me over as we should thank ours. No.. we should have better dumped the money into the North Sea.

You country has been falsifying it's books for a long time and I am not sure how Greeks look at such stuff (it's probably considered "art" there) but here it is considered pretty much a mortal sin.

[Mosov]

We didn´t hire them. The politicians tricked us. First of all the NATO/US urged us to take some to reduce the unemployment rate in Turkey as Turkey was a NATO member and they wanted to show the Turks how they support them as allies. They were not needed for the German economy. How could they? - Most of them were underqualified. Opposed to what we were told they didn´t leave after two years, instead laws were made that allowed Turks to take their families to Germany, one Turk thus brought five more with him. Also, many Turks go to Turkey to find a wife there.
The majority of Germans never wanted this to happen. But unfortunately they were stupid enough to elect parties that lied to them. But Turkish immigration was neither neccessary, nor useful, nor wanted by the majority of the population. They damage our economy by getting billions of Euros of social welfare, they are much more criminal than Germans on average, they look down on us although they came here uneducated and poor and they still would be, if we wouldn´t pay them for sitting around doing nothing and despising us. It´s one of the greatest tragedies in the last decades of German history. A terrible mistake.

Well there are over 2 million Turks in your country. I guess you pay the price for following the orders of NATO/US. Those Turks are not going to become Germans, and their birth rate will always be higher than native German birth rate. But Germany also has blood on its hand for helping Turks massacre Christians during WWI if it wasn't for you guys, so many Christians wouldn't have been massacred in cold blood during this time. So maybe now that Germany is being swallowed by Turks is a good punishment.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Thanks for the advice Türkü but i already have zero intention to respond to this idiot after his latest nonsense.

He can continue to post his nonsense here for his own amusement and i wish him to have fun for the next century because of their 180% debt ratio of their ever-shrinking GDP and non-existent economy nor workforce. But i think he wont mind to that because he says that he is fine with appointed dictators from Brussels.

HA HA HA HA HA

Dusan called me mad or something and refused to respond to me... While he was still a Makedonoid. A week later he is a banned Hungarian. I knew that he was the reincarnation or Krste Petkov Misirkov...

Now you call me idiot and... Yes... You have no intention to respond to me. Sure, you're just going to pretend I didn't blast the hell out of you with references... Not the first time really...

[Wanderlust]

You need a virginity test ASAP. Maybe that will get your senses back...

http://articles.cnn.com/2002-02-28/world/turkey.virgins_1_virginity-tests-health-minister-osman-durmus-disciplinary-code?_s=PM:WORLD

Truth be told her hate is phenomenal, but I can't say I blame her for responding the way she did, ad hominem attacks of this kind are lame but first and foremost bad for the forum.


Het is dan wel weer typerend dat de Jager MILJARDEN aan Nederlands belastingsgeld aan die frauduleuze banken/ luie Grieken heeft afgedragen. Ze hadden de poet net zo goed met hele scheepsladingen tegelijk in de Noordzee kunnen dumpen.

Err sorry: that one was for Türkü.

What I said was:

It's typical that De Jager (finance minister) has already send billions of Dutch tax payers money to the fraudulent banks and the lazy Greeks. They might just as well have loaded the cash on barges and dumped it all into the North Sea for all it's use.

Well, I'm sure that if I browse your posts I'm going to find many supportive references to the 'suffering Greek people' and the damn fucking corrupted political system, plutocracy, etc. It's time to make up your mind and let us know what you really think, because as you probably know very well the average Greek citizen doesn't get a penny from all that money, on the contrary.

On a more general note, I think that the Greek members should stop asap any discussion with Onur. I have nothing against/personal with him, but I think that you all know from which forum he found us, so disputing with a person holding this kind of views is like beating a dead horse.

[Petros Houhoulis]

You should thank your politicians for fucking you and me over as we should thank ours. No.. we should have better dumped the money into the North Sea.

You country has been falsifying it's books for a long time and I am not sure how Greeks look at such stuff (it's probably considered "art" there) but here it is considered pretty much a mortal sin.

It is a moral sin. Unfortunately we cannot hang the lot of the Greek politicians who have been engaged in this art.

Greece needs a change of mentality. It does NOT have a European mentality because it always has to look across the borders against people who have no European mentality at all, neither an intention to acquire one in the future. We cannot handle them like principled Europeans... It would ruin us.

[The Lawspeaker]

Well, I'm sure that if I browse your posts I'm going to find many supportive references to the 'suffering Greek people' and the damn fucking corrupted political system, plutocracy, etc. It's time to make up your mind and let us know what you really think, because as you probably know very well the average Greek citizen doesn't get a penny from all that money, on the contrary.

We have done our bit and it didn't work. Now we have to cutback again while the Greeks are doing perfectly nothing and are facing bankruptcy within two weeks (it was in the papers today). Talk about having thrown away BILLIONS of Euro's that should have been spend on our elderly.



It is a moral sin. Unfortunately we cannot hang the lot of the Greek politicians who have been engaged in this art.

Greece needs a change of mentality. It does NOT have a European mentality because it always has to look across the borders against people who have no European mentality at all, neither an intention to acquire one in the future. We cannot handle them like principled Europeans... It would ruin us.
Then maybe it would be for the better if Greece would leave the Eurozone. And maybe the European Union too. I still think we should offer Turkey our seat and get out ourselves before Brussels, Greece and the banks suck us dry.
We have done our bit and it didn't work. Now we have to cutback again while the Greeks are doing perfectly nothing and are facing bankruptcy within two weeks (it was in the papers today). Talk about having thrown away BILLIONS of Euro's that should have been spend on our elderly.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Truth be told her hate is phenomenal, but I can't say I blame her for responding the way she did, ad hominem attacks of this kind are lame but first and foremost bad for the forum.



Well, I'm sure that if I browse your posts I'm going to find many supportive references to the 'suffering Greek people' and the damn fucking corrupted political system, plutocracy, etc. It's time to make up your mind and let us know what you really think, because as you probably know very well the average Greek citizen doesn't get a penny from all that money, on the contrary.

On a more general note, I think that the Greek members should stop asap any discussion with Onur. I have nothing personal with him, but I think that you all know from which forum he found us, so disputing with a person holding this kind of views is like beating a dead horse.

I can take him head on. He can't do much, because I use references. He can't really discredit them, and defenses like "I don't think that 20.000 people lived in Nicosia back then" won't either convince anybody or exonerate him.

[Queen B]

Then maybe it would be for the better if Greece would leave the Eurozone.
Greeks are asking for this, before you.


Now we have to cutback again while the Greeks are doing perfectly nothing and are facing bankruptcy within two weeks (it was in the papers today). Talk about having thrown away BILLIONS of Euro's that should have been spend on our elderly.
The ''bankrupcy'' rumors are floating around the last 2 years. :coffee:

Anyway, until now, the loans that we take, are paid back (by the new loans we get :lol:). So far, was really go wasted. (except Greeks, that all the money that the state gets, is to pay back loans, and payback the loan interest,and is one of the reasons that the debt is getting bigger and bigger)

But yes, give the billions of Euros to your elderly, and do something more good as ''allies''. Military protect us,as you should

[Wanderlust]

Then maybe it would be for the better if Greece would leave the Eurozone. And maybe the European Union too. I still think we should offer Turkey our seat and get out ourselves before Brussels, Greece and the banks suck us dry.
We have done our bit and it didn't work. Now we have to cutback again while the Greeks are doing perfectly nothing and are facing bankruptcy within two weeks (it was in the papers today). Talk about having thrown away BILLIONS of Euro's that should have been spend on our elderly.

I would have preferred not to have entered the EZ, as we were more effective back then, so the billions you're talking about would have been spent indeed on your elderly. Since I don't see myself or you in the Parliament anytime soon, that's all I can say. So the 'lazy' Greeks can do as much as you and I. We wanted Greece out of the EZ and that's the reason the referendum was cancelled, they knew that people would go for it.

[Petros Houhoulis]

We have done our bit and it didn't work. Now we have to cutback again while the Greeks are doing perfectly nothing and are facing bankruptcy within two weeks (it was in the papers today). Talk about having thrown away BILLIONS of Euro's that should have been spend on our elderly.



Then maybe it would be for the better if Greece would leave the Eurozone. And maybe the European Union too. I still think we should offer Turkey our seat and get out ourselves before Brussels, Greece and the banks suck us dry.
We have done our bit and it didn't work. Now we have to cutback again while the Greeks are doing perfectly nothing and are facing bankruptcy within two weeks (it was in the papers today). Talk about having thrown away BILLIONS of Euro's that should have been spend on our elderly.

So far so good then. If you think that you should leave the European Union go ahead.

Greeks doing perfectly nothing is a scheme of words. The Greek economy is subtracting ~5% per yer for quite a few years. Not easy to do anything in such a climate.

Anyway, it won't be the first time that we have been betrayed by the west. We still remember the 4th crusade too. Maybe we should forget you too (and the luxurious life that the E.U. promised us - this is how we got in our current state of affairs) and reassemble according to our proper location in the map.

I just won't allow you to call us lazy. It is NOT a fact.

[The Lawspeaker]

Greeks are asking for this, before you.

The ''bankrupcy'' rumors are floating around the last 2 years. :coffee:
I think it's time for the axe to fall... this can't go on forever. :(


Anyway, until now, the loans that we take, are paid back (by the new loans we get :lol:). So far, was really go wasted. (except Greeks, that all the money that the state gets, is to pay back loans, and payback the loan interest,and is one of the reasons that the debt is getting bigger and bigger)
The frustrating thing is: the Greeks were beyond themselves with anger and they could stormed that house of parliament and gave every single last one of those people in their a new necktie on Syntagma Square. They had the chance and they blew it completely and utterly. Why ?

By not doing it.. they will be getting themselves and us ultimately deeper and deeper into debt..


But yes, give the billions of Euros to your elderly, and do something more good as ''allies''. Military protect us,as you should
LOL. We had to almost disband our army just to pay for you lot... :(:D

[Wanderlust]

I can take him head on. He can't do much, because I use references. He can't really discredit them, and defenses like "I don't think that 20.000 people lived in Nicosia back then" won't either convince anybody or exonerate him.

You can say whatever you want to say while talking politics, but I won't tolerate more ad hominem about such private matters.

[Queen B]

LOL. We had to almost disband our army just to pay for you lot... :(:D
If you (west) protect us in the first place, you didn't have to do that.
We are suppose to be Allies in EU since 81 and in NATO much more, and we have incidents like Imia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imia)happening , constant military violations from Turkey (airspace and naval), and Turkey still holds a casus belli against Greece. Yes, you read correctly , Casus Belli, against your ally in EU and their ally in NATO.

But none of the west does anything to protect their ''allie''. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Greece#Military_spending)

[The Lawspeaker]

If you (west) protect us in the first place, you didn't have to do that.
We are suppose to be Allies in EU since 81 and in NATO much more, and we have incidents like Imia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imia)happening , constant military violations from Turkey (airspace and naval), and Turkey still holds a casus belli against Greece. Yes, you read correctly , Casus Belli, against your ally in EU and their ally in NATO.

But none of the west does anything to protect their ''allie''. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Greece#Military_spending)
That's funny. That never made it into the news here. It's probably because Turkey is such a valuable "ally".

[Petros Houhoulis]

There could be one and only reason of why i would like to see Turkey as an EU member; so we could have dump you some more Kurds and then Turkey would be like heaven for us.

For Turks? Trust me, not even a Turk with a minimum salary wants to leave beautiful coasts, mediterranean sun&weather for going in to the cold and foggy Europe, just be discriminated by neo-nazis and such. I could go to Europe for tourism purposes but for living? no way. Did you know that this is also a trend for Brits and Germans? did you know that there are towns in southern Turkey, populated with 40.000-50.000 permanently residing Germans, British families?

There is by far more hinterland with continental climate in Turkey than coastline with Mediterranean climate. Not to mention that in EVERY SINGLE EARTHQUAKE your shacks fall apart and kill hundreds if not thousands of people:

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-10-23/world/world_europe_turkey-earthquake_1_rescue-teams-death-toll-turkish-red-crescent?_s=PM:EUROPE


October 23, 2011|From Yesim Comert, CNN

Battling near-freezing temperatures and darkness, rescue workers and residents in eastern Turkey early Monday scoured the wreckage wrought by the country's most-powerful earthquake in more than a decade, hoping to find survivors.

They used flashlights, shovels, heavy machinery and their hands to lift the debris, and climbed over collapsed buildings in search of victims.

At least 217 people were killed in Sunday's quake, said Turkish Interior Minister Idris Naim Sahin, the Anatolian news agency reported Monday. The previous official toll was 138...


Fix Turkey before you "offer" to bail out Greece...

[Teyrn]

Off-topic comment:

National debt is usually taken care of this way by the politicians:

We will solve the issue of national debt/deficit by cutting spending proposals.

When this is done it's hailed as waging war on a nation's debt and/or deficit. No actual spending is hurt, merely proposed spending is cut. This is about the only thing Ron Paul has taught me. This was done some time last year in the U.S. when a few measly tens of billions of spending proposals were cut and the politicians gave press conferences, pats on the back, speeches, etc. about how hardcore they were in trying to kill the economic problems in the U.S. Few people, I think, were really convinced- Congress' approval rating is still in the toilet and few people believe Obama's mojo-themed speeches these days except for the idiots.

On-topic comments:

If you don't like turks or whoever on a board just don't interact with them. There's the option to simply ignore people that irritate you... The admin and mod staff seem to have no issues with turkics here and posters saying otherwise is kind of like a private telling the general how to run the army.

[Joe McCarthy]

We didn´t hire them. The politicians tricked us. First of all the NATO/US urged us to take some to reduce the unemployment rate in Turkey as Turkey was a NATO member and they wanted to show the Turks how they support them as allies. They were not needed for the German economy.

You're overemphasizing the US role a bit, and NATO wasn't involved at all. The catalyst for Turks being brought in to West Germany was the economic expansion of the German miracle coupled with the Soviets building the Berlin Wall which disrupted the movement of East German laborers. At the time Turkey offered to send its unemployed to fuel economic expansion and US diplomats encouraged it, but it was intended to be temporary. Business lobbying to renew their work permits and government family reunification programs made it permanent and caused the large number to exist. As Chancellor Schmidt said, Germany let in too many, and it was due in large measure to self-loathing over WW2.

In sum, it was largely a self-inflicted wound.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Onur is from Pirin Macedonia, and therefore is a Macedonian Turk....

Pirin is not in Macedonia, and Onur is neither of the above. He might be a Turkified Bulgarian...

This is Macedonia.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Macedonian_Kingdom.jpg

[Queen B]

That's funny. That never made it into the news here. It's probably because Turkey is such a valuable "ally".
I don't think that you are too naive to believe only in the news or expect the news to tell you everything
Oh, and guess from whom Greece is buying military equipment :lightbul:

[Petros Houhoulis]

Off-topic comment:

National debt is usually taken care of this way by the politicians:

We will solve the issue of national debt/deficit by cutting spending proposals.

When this is done it's hailed as waging war on a nation's debt and/or deficit. No actual spending is hurt, merely proposed spending is cut. This is about the only thing Ron Paul has taught me. This was done some time last year in the U.S. when a few measly tens of billions of spending proposals were cut and the politicians gave press conferences, pats on the back, speeches, etc. about how hardcore they were in trying to kill the economic problems in the U.S. Few people, I think, were really convinced.

On-topic comments:

If you don't like turks or whoever on a board just don't interact with them. There's the option to simply ignore people that irritate you... The admin and mod staff seem to have no issues with turkics here and posters saying otherwise is kind of like a private telling the general how to run the army.

First of all the current economic crisis started with the bankers of the U.S. of A. cooking their books - long before it spread in Europe. I think that Ron Paul is adamant about the situation of the U.S. of A. and I agree with him. I also know that the Greek economy is no better.

Do you mind if I bother to educate those Turks. Maybe somebody should narrate to them their own bloody history.

[The Lawspeaker]

I don't think that you are too naive to believe only in the news or expect the news to tell you everything
Oh, and guess from whom Greece is buying military equipment :lightbul:
From a lot of countries... including stuff that we had to sell so we could give you money and keep you afloat.

[Queen B]

From a lot of countries...
Germany and France. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-and-germany-to-blame-for-greece-crisis-7218923.html) Yes, yes, our so-called biggest saviors, and the ones that decide about our future.

[Petros Houhoulis]

How 'bout the kiiling of thousands upon thousands of natives in the New World...

The most died without even to get in contact with the colonials. The germs killed them. In any case, the modern U.S. Americans have acknowledged the evil deeds of their ancestors, unlike some others who are on the bargaining table: "Excuse me, but I don't think that 20.000 civilians lived in Nicosia back then!!!"

O.K. Onur, they were 19.999. Happy now?

[Petros Houhoulis]

The EU,mate is based on the geographic area,meaning that only countries located on the continent could be accepted.(At least for now.Who knows one day they might accept Japan as well) no matter whether their ancient people were Iranic,Turkic,Slavic and so on bollocks.The Russian Federation has about the same % of land in Europe as Turkey has.In fact the Russians don't give a f...about the EU or The USA or any other bulshit union.Now I do realise that Turkey is economically more stabile then a lot of the European countries,especially the Ex Comunist block,but simply not in Europe.

Nope. The only stable countries around are in North Europe and China. Perhaps a few more like Chile could be added in the group. Turkey is simlply cheap, not stable, and it had its' own crisis at 2001:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Stock_Market_Crash_of_2001

In fact the Turkish economy has signs of overheating right now... and the average Turk is still not as much rich as the average Greek, not to mention the average European...

[The Lawspeaker]

Germany and France. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-and-germany-to-blame-for-greece-crisis-7218923.html) Yes, yes, our so-called biggest saviors, and the ones that decide about our future.
And that have us destroy ourselves so we can save your arses. Lovely.

[Queen B]

And that have us destroy ourselves so we can save your arses. Lovely.
If all our allies did what you had to do, none of them would have happen. At least not to that extend. :coffee:

[Petros Houhoulis]

Maybe you would be surprised but we do not want your lot here either. Not your polluting oil companies nor any other dutch business who might leech our people`s money. We do not want stupid dutch teenager tourists either, who throws up in the middle of our streets or asks us for drugs in the clubs while trying to chat up with our girls. Nevertheless, regardless of what we think, your people are coming here and ours are going there.

I truly believe you! Perhaps though you might change your opinion if you could marry them and turn them into faithful Turkish wives? Because this is what a certain Recep Celik tried to do:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/8711321/Two-Northern-Irish-women-murdered-in-Turkey.html


Two Northern Irish women murdered in Turkey

Two women from Northern Ireland have been stabbed to death by a teenager in a forest in Turkey.

By Raf Sanchez

1:46PM BST 19 Aug 2011

The 17-year-old is believed to have murdered Marion Elizabeth Graham and Kathy Dinsmore after Ms Graham refused to allow him to marry her daughter, Shannon.

Turkey's state-run news agency Anatolia, reported that teen, named locally as Recep Celik, took them in a taxi to a quiet woodland area of the regional capital Izmir, where he killed them both...

Or perhaps...

http://en.rian.ru/world/20110727/165419669.html


Almost 100 Russians tourists poisoned in Turkey

27/07/2011MOSCOW, July 27 (RIA Novosti)

Almost 100 Russian tourists have received medical assistance after suspected food poisoning in the Turkish resort city of Alanya, officials said on Wednesday.

Russia's tourist watchdog said 98 tourists had been poisoned and that eight remained in hospital.

The tourists were all staying at the Club Gunes Garden hotel. Turkish health officials have taken samples of the hotel's food and drinks.

Five Russian tourists died in Turkey's Bodrum in late May after drinking bootleg whiskey on a sailing trip organized by a local company.


May I suppose that neither this was broadcast in Dutch news eh?

Anyway...




Thats true. When my family was there, it was a part of Macedonia, not Bulgaria.

Was there a Macedonia between 1204 and 1912?

Not according to the Ottoman empire. It never had a region called Macedonia. Sorry Onur... You have run out of facts again...

[Petros Houhoulis]

And that have us destroy ourselves so we can save your arses. Lovely.

...And you are destroyed now? I mean, no more red light district in Groningen? I used to hop there from the location where we were building a ship in the final stage after we left Papenburg.

Maybe you need to redefine the meaning of the term "destroyed" in a more meaningful way? After 1922 ~1.500.000 people fled from Turkey towards Greece and another ~500.000 took the opposite direction. It was a dreadful situation, many of the refugees died or were executed before they manage to flee away, including a grand-grandma of mine and an aunt, those two because of sadness after losing EVERYTHING but I would never say that we were "destroyed" after that.

Thank you for your understanding.

[The Lawspeaker]

...And you are destroyed now? I mean, no more red light district in Groningen? I used to hop there from the location where we were building a ship in the final stage after we left Papanburg.
Papanburg ? What the hell is that ?


.Maybe you need to redefine the meaning of the term "destroyed" in a more meaningful way? After 1922 ~1.500.000 people fled from Turkey towards Greece and another ~500.000 took the opposite direction. It was a dreadful situation, many of the refugees died or were executed before they manage to flee away, including a grand-grandma of mine and an aunt, those two because of sadness after losing EVERYTHING but I would never say that we were "destroyed" after that.

Thank you for your understanding.

Welfare state is currently being dismantled, the education system is being dismantled, the army is being dismantled. Fifty years of hard work down the crapper and not even a "thank you" from you lot down there, eh.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Papanburg ? What the hell is that ?

Welfare state is currently being dismantled, the education system is being dismantled, the army is being dismantled. Fifty years of hard work down the crapper and not even a "thank you" from you lot down there, eh.

Sorry, I meant Papenburg in the eastern side of the Ems river, the location of Meyer Werft:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meyer_Werft

Anyway, thank you - if that consoles you a bit. It doesn't console me though. It is not enough. That's why I say that I wouldn't mind being ruled by a dictator in Brussels. It would be better from the spectre of politicians that we have right now...

...But then we are not alone in this world. I am watching the Republican nomination in the U.S. of A. and I see Ron Paul... but he won't go anywhere. The rest are at the same level like ours.


If they really have all those natural resources... :cool:

They shall start drilling for oil in the Ionian sea. Maybe we do have all those natural resources that were waiting for the oil to go at $100 per barrel in order to get them!

Some fools make mention of oil and natural gas in Greek waters worth as much as 1 trillion Euros. I won't speculate that much, probably the numbers are inflated - This is not just Greek statistics, Azerbaijan and other countries used the same trick in the past - but they are worth quite a lot...

You know, if I were a Greek politician I would hand over to the debtors of Greece all the oil that is contested by Turkey as well, in the Herodotus plain between Greece and Cyprus, southeast of Crete... Turkey (along with such other states who respect international law as Israel and the U.S. of A) has yet to accept the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_on_the_Law_of_the_Sea

We would be much less troublesome and much more rich without the Turks next door, no doubt about it.


No mate, enjoy your kebab with yogurt but don't forget the turkish coffee afterwards and pretend that all these are true bulgarian slavic food, just like greeks does. These are unproven too, right? repeat this for 20 times to soothe yourself and you gonna start to believe it.

Of all these only the kebab is yours.


Specifics please.

They can't really find specifics because there aren't any. The worse incident was the various "trails of tears", with a few thousand dead at best:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_tears

But you have to agree that the "Five civilized tribes" could have been incorporated within the U.S. of A. without to be forcibly relocated. I have the impression that they were fully converted to a European way of life - something that several Blacks fail to accomplish even today.

What is your view on the matter? Can you enlighten us a bit?

[ficuscarica]

You don't know shit about this matter.



That´s really funny. You say I don´t know sh!t about this matter, when in fact all you do is use silly, but wrong, superficial myths I have heard a thousand times.

We recently "celebrated" the 50th anniversary of the beginning of Turks coming to Germany. This means Turkish immigration started after 1960, in 1961. Here is the German wikipedia article about the reasons for the treaties that were made:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwerbeabkommen_zwischen_der_Bundesrepublik_Deutsc hland_und_der_T%C3%BCrkei

It says that the German politicians didn´t want to take Turks in, due to big cultural/religious differences. But Turkey had recently joined the NATO and the US urged Germany to take them in in order to reduce the Turkish unemployment rate. The only ones to get an economical benefit out of it were the Turks. The treaty also clearly stated that those people should return to Turkey after two years. It was a TREATY and people knew it before they came. In 1959 Germany was the second biggest industry after the US. That was BEFORE the Turks came. It´s simply a LIE that Turks helped to rebuild Germany, because Germany already had a bigger economy than GB or France when the Turks came (also, they were not called, but we were forced to take them by the Americans, because Turky had become an alley). According to the German wikipedia West Germany had reached US standards between 1950 and 1960.


The German minister for work (Anton Sabel) in September 1960, when the Turks had begun to ask Germany to take some of the Turkish unemployed people, said Germany didn´t need them.

It´s a matter of fact: Germany was completely rebuilt and prospering, before the Turks came. The German minister for work said we don´t need them, yet they were forced upon us to help the Turkish economy. Now, 50 years later they live here although the originial treaty had said that they would return after two years. They are on average much more criminal, unemployed and receive more social welfare. From the beginning Turkish immigration had damaged Germany and it continues to do so. And this can be proven by clear data.
For example in 2010 4,2% of the German population received social welfare for unemployed people, 2009 more than 15% percent of the Turks received social welfare for unemployed people, which is more than three times more! Those Turks who do work on average are far worse educated and thus pay less taxes than the average German, which makes the economical consequences even worse.
Another example: According to a survey in 2005 Turks in Germany attacked other persons twice as often as Germans (http://www.faz.net/aktuell/gesellschaft/kriminalitaet/jugendkriminalitaet-junge-tuerken-neigen-am-meisten-zur-gewalt-1514647.html).

[ficuscarica]

To sum it up for you:
1. Germany was a prospering country before 1960, had the second biggest industry after the US.
2. Turks came later, in 1961, and therefore were not responsible of the economical uprise of Germany.
3. The German minister for work in 1960 said we don´t need Turkish workers.
4. Regardless of the German statements the US/the NATO urged Germany to take Turks into Germany to support the Turkish economy.
5. Treaties said that they should return after two years. They didnt.
6. Turks that were neither wanted nor useful in Germany today receive 3 times more social welfare then Germans and are much more criminal on average.
7. Therefore the Turkish immigration to Germany is an economic, political and social desaster. I hope that more and more of them leave and don´t come back.

Thanks for your attention.

[Onur]

It´s a matter of fact: Germany was completely rebuilt and prospering, before the Turks came. The German minister for work said we don´t need them, yet they were forced upon us to help the Turkish economy. Now, 50 years later they live here although the originial treaty had said that they would return after two years. They are on average much more criminal, unemployed and receive more social welfare. From the beginning Turkish immigration had damaged Germany and it continues to do so. And this can be proven by clear data.

I find that hard to believe.

Western Germany was under British/US occupation `till you joined NATO. Already Eastern Germany was belonged to the Russians. USA gave you money according to Marshall plan and you say that you became world`s no:2 in just a decade after they turned your country to an Afghanistan in WW-2? You did this with whom then? Your young generation was totally dead and millions of your women was raped by the Russians in 1949. So, you claim to be no:2 in the world in just 5-6 years laters? huh?

Also, if your country was supposedly super duper in just 10 years after the war, then why the fck you invited foreigners to work in your factories? What for? just because americans desired for? lol, who feeds your little mind with this nonsense over there? German secret service who pets neo-nazis?

Even if what you said the truth, it wouldn't matter shit because after the war, every country in the world was economically ruined due to WW-2 (except USA). England, France etc. all of them was totally ruined, even Turkey too despite that we weren't a part of the war but nevertheless, our economy was a total mess. So, everyone started from scratch at that time.

[ficuscarica]

Actually I got most of it from the German wikipedia, not from a Nazi-site...

Here´s the English wiki: "From the late 1950s onwards, West Germany had one of the world's strongest economies." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirtschaftswunder)
But Turks started to come in 1961 when Germany already was one of the world´s strongest economies.

Unfortunately this is only in German: German Minister for Work in September 1960, translated into English:
The question, whether Germany should make a treaty for Turkey to send workers, he answered by saying the german market absolutely doesn´t need such a treaty. But he could not say "to what extend Germany could say no to such a suggestion by the Turkish government, because Turkey already is trying to become a part of the EWG and, as a NATO partner doesn´t have an insignifcant political position." (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Sabel#cite_note-0)

Unfortunately such a treaty was made. It included the following condition:
Guest workers could stay for a maximum time of two years, afterwards they had to return to Turkey (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwerbeabkommen_zwischen_der_Bundesrepublik_Deutsc hland_und_der_T%C3%BCrkei#cite_note-5)

Turks in Germany - not needed, not wanted, not part of the economic wonder (the "Wirtschaftswunder"). I know this is hard, but it´s often hard to see that fairy-tales are fairy-tales and not reality.

[Joe McCarthy]

They can't really find specifics because there aren't any. The worse incident was the various "trails of tears", with a few thousand dead at best:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_tears

But you have to agree that the "Five civilized tribes" could have been incorporated within the U.S. of A. without to be forcibly relocated. I have the impression that they were fully converted to a European way of life - something that several Blacks fail to accomplish even today.

What is your view on the matter? Can you enlighten us a bit?

That occurred after independence. In other words, not under the British Empire. The tribes were moved west into more sparsely populated areas not incorporated as states to facilitate white settlement and to avoid violence against them by frontier settlers who had bad feelings about Indians in general due to atrocities committed by Indians. It was a highly controversial policy at the time and few defend it today, though I will note that the Cherokee were not quite as civilized as is normally believed. They perpetrated at least one Indian massacre that was recorded.

Some died during the Trail of Tears, but it was accidental or they were killed by outlaws along the way. It certainly wasn't comparable to Cyprus in 1570 or the atrocities carried out by the Ottomans in Greece, Bulgaria, or elsewhere. It was mostly just a product of an overflowing number of white settlers needing land and Indians being in the way.

[Petros Houhoulis]

I find that hard to believe.

Western Germany was under British/US occupation `till you joined NATO. Already Eastern Germany was belonged to the Russians. USA gave you money according to Marshall plan and you say that you became world`s no:2 in just a decade after they turned your country to an Afghanistan in WW-2? You did this with whom then? Your young generation was totally dead and millions of your women was raped by the Russians in 1949. So, you claim to be no:2 in the world in just 5-6 years laters? huh?

Also, if your country was supposedly super duper in just 10 years after the war, then why the fck you invited foreigners to work in your factories? What for? just because americans desired for? lol, who feeds your little mind with this nonsense over there? German secret service who pets neo-nazis?

Even if what you said the truth, it wouldn't matter shit because after the war, every country in the world was economically ruined due to WW-2 (except USA). England, France etc. all of them was totally ruined, even Turkey too despite that we weren't a part of the war but nevertheless, our economy was a total mess. So, everyone started from scratch at that time.

Yes Onur, they did so. I've heard that after the war the Germans agreed to work one extra hour free for the regeneration of Germany and another extra hour for the rebuilding of their own industry - and guess what, it still pays back to them.

This is more than any Greek or Turk blabbering "patriot" would ever do for his country, our folks are more famous for chanting for their pride but tend to cheat the state as much as possible.

Germanys' industry did not collapse completely after the war (although the infamous Morgenthau plan called for such a solution - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Plan ) and the Germans didn't forget their technical skills because of WWII. They only lost the first place among the Nobel prize winners to the U.S. of A. - somebody finally managed to become more sophisticated than they were.

Germany managed to satisfy its' needs for industrial workers by bringing Southern Europeans to the task. That was BEFORE the Turks were called in, and the Turks have yet to assimilate into the German society, with many of them failing to learn German and wearing all those hijabs, the tendency of the Muslim men force their women to marry their kinsmen from Turkey and their tendency to assassinate those Turkish women who divorce their husbands because they have a higher standard of civilization than them, as well as the tendency of the family background to condone these assassinations and refuse any assistance to the authorities to capture the culprit(s).

I have to reveal to you now that a German girl who is working as a nurse for our ships has a Turkish name, a Turkish ancestry, and perhaps she even speaks Turkish, but no, she is GERMAN - that is what she says when asked about it. Any Greek girl in her place would have assimilated into the German society without to suggest that she is German. Your folks are extremists - either no assimilation or full annihilation.

Basically your folks are an exception even for the South European standards. An exception that Germany (among others) finds hard to stomach for quite a long time.

Beyond that, it would be a pleasure to explain to us how a country like Turkey which did not participate in the war (and imposed extravagant taxes like the "Varlik" tax aimed mainly at the non-Muslim minorities) managed to destroy its' economy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varl%C4%B1k_Vergisi


Varlık Vergisi ("Wealth tax" or "Capital tax") was a Turkish tax levied on the wealthy citizens of Turkey in 1942, with the stated aim of raising funds for the country's defense in case of an eventual entry into World War II.

The bill for the one-off tax was proposed by the Şükrü Saracoğlu government, and the act was adopted by the Turkish parliament on November 11, 1942. It was imposed on the fixed assets, such as landed estates, building owners, real estate brokers, businesses, and industrial enterprises of all citizens, including the minorities. However, those who suffered most severely were non-Muslims like the Jews, Greeks, Armenians, and Levantines, who controlled a large portion of the economy.[1] Though it was the Armenians who were most heavily taxed.[2]
During World War II, Turkey remained neutral until February 1945. Officially, the tax was devised to fill the state treasury that would have been needed had Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union invaded the country. However, it is argued, a main reason for the tax was to nationalize the Turkish economy by reducing minority populations' influence and control over the country's trade, finance, and industries.
The tax was paid by all citizens of Turkey, but higher tariffs were generally imposed on the country's non-Muslim inhabitants, often in an arbitrary and unrealistic way.[3]
Around two thousand non-Muslims, who could not pay the enormous amount demanded for this sudden tax within the time-limit of thirty days, were arrested and sent to a forced labor camp in Aşkale in Erzurum Province of eastern Turkey. Twenty-one of these unfortunates died there.
The rigidly-enforced, discriminatory law did not yield the results the government had hoped for. Companies increased the prices of their products sharply to recoup their losses, creating a spiral of inflation that wrecked low-income consumers.
However, according to official information, the Turkish government collected 324 million liras, through the confiscation of non-Muslim assets. During a time in which one American dollar was equivalent to 1.20 Turkish lira.[3]

Spit it out, bloodsucker!

BTW, all of you started of ruins after 1945, except from Greece which had to deal with even more ruins after 1945 than before. The Greek civil war ended only as late as 1949... Ironically the ones crying the most about it today are your modern pets. You know who I'm talking about, don't you?

[Petros Houhoulis]

No, Anatolia has at least 12.000 year old culture [google "gobekli tepe"] and it predates the so-called Byzantines. Most of the so-called Greek named cities in Anatolia are in fact grecizied Hittite, Lydian, Hatti names. It should be same for the people too. They were Hittites before they became greeks and god knows they were identified with what b4 all that.

Unfortunately the Hittites, Lydians, Carians e.t.c. were closely related to the Ancient Greeks linguistically and otherwise. In fact the transition from Hittite to Greek has been smaller than the transition from Thracian (Baltic) language to the modern Slavic language - just to bring one example. Only the Hatti were culturally different - probably belonging to a North-Western Causasian culture like the Adyghe. Those folks perhaps went as far as Etruria and the Etruscans...


So what? Christian culture has been forcibly imposed all of your shamanic, naturalist, druid ancestors, by the Latins/Franks. They imposed Roman christianity upon you and mass murdered every Anglo-Saxon who opposed to that.

Christianity is more of a religion than a culture. The older elements of culture found some cunning methods to survive like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight_of_the_Round_Table#Later_development


In Robert de Boron's Merlin, written around the 1190s, the wizard Merlin creates the Round Table in imitation of the table of the Last Supper and of Joseph of Arimathea's Holy Grail table.

The Anglo-Saxon did NOT predate the Romans in Britain, poor Onur. They followed it and their Germanic culture made a lasting impact into a population who was already speaking a "Celtic" Centum IndoEuropean - thus not that much of a change of language, espcially if we note the genetic compatibility between the British and Germanic populations which evidently predates the Anglo-Saxon invasions. Furthermore the Anglo-Saxons were certainly no less murderous than the Christian Latins, since the former practiced human sacrifices extensively:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice#Europe



Greco-Roman antiquity... {Not much to mention except gladiators, ended in Minoan Crete and at 97 BC in Rome}

Celts

A wicker man, that, according to Caesar, was used to sacrifice humans to the gods.According to Roman sources, Celtic Druids engaged extensively in human sacrifice.[29] According to Julius Caesar, the slaves and dependents of Gauls of rank would be burnt along with the body of their master as part of his funerary rites.[30] He also describes how they built wicker figures that were filled with living humans and then burned.[31] It is known that druids at least supervised sacrifices of some kind. According to Cassius Dio, Boudica's forces impaled Roman captives during her rebellion against the Roman occupation, to the accompaniment of revelry and sacrifices in the sacred groves of Andate.[32] Different gods reportedly required different kinds of sacrifices. Victims meant for Esus were hanged, those meant for Taranis immolated and those for Teutates drowned. Some, like the Lindow Man, may have gone to their deaths willingly.

Archaeological evidence from the British Isles seems to indicate that human sacrifice may have been practised, over times long pre-dating any contact with Rome. Human remains have been found at the foundations of structures from the Neolithic time to the Roman era, with injuries and in positions that argue for their being foundation sacrifices.[citation needed]

Skeletons belonging to as many as 150 people and dating back to about the time of the Roman conquest were discovered in Alveston, England. Druids may have killed the victims in a single event.[33]

Ritualised decapitation survives in the archaeological record such as the example of 12 headless corpses at the French late Iron Age sanctuary of Gournay-sur-Aronde.[34]

Germanic

Human sacrifice was not a particularly common occurrence among the Germanic peoples, being resorted to in exceptional situations arising from crises of an environmental (crop failure, drought, famine) or social (war) nature, often thought to derive at least in part from the failure of the king to establish and/or maintain prosperity and peace (árs ok friðar) in the lands entrusted to him.[35] In later Scandinavian practice, human sacrifice appears to have become more institutionalised, and was repeated as part of a larger sacrifice on a periodic basis (according to Adam of Bremen every nine years).[36]

Evidence of Germanic practices of human sacrifice predating the Viking Age depend on archaeology and on a few scattered accounts in Greco-Roman ethnography. For example, Tacitus reports Germanic human sacrifice to (what he interprets as) Mercury, and to Isis specifically among the Suebians. Jordanes reports how the Goths sacrificed prisoners of war to Mars, suspending the severed arms of the victims from the branches of trees.

By the 10th century, Germanic paganism had become restricted to Scandinavia. One account by Ahmad ibn Fadlan as part of his account of an embassy to the Volga Bulgars in 921 claims that Norse warriors were sometimes buried with enslaved women with the belief that these women would become their wives in Valhalla. In his description of the funeral of a Scandinavian chieftain, a slave volunteers to die with a Norseman. After ten days of festivities, she is stabbed to death by an old woman, a sort of priestess who is referred to as Völva or "Angel of Death", and burnt together with the deceased in his boat. This practice is evidenced archaeologically, with many male warrior burials (such as the ship burial at Balladoole on the Isle of Man, or that at Oseberg in Norway[37]) also containing female remains with signs of trauma.

According to Adémar de Chabannes, just before his death in 932 or 933 Rollo (founder and first ruler of the Viking principality of Normandy) practised human sacrifices to appease the pagan gods, and at the same time made gifts to the churches in Normandy.[38]

Adam von Bremen recorded human sacrifices to Odin in 11th-century Sweden, at the Temple at Uppsala, a tradition which is confirmed by Gesta Danorum and the Norse sagas. According to the Ynglinga saga, king Domalde was sacrificed there in the hope of bringing greater future harvests and the total domination of all future wars. The same saga also relates that Domalde's descendant king Aun sacrificed nine of his own sons to Odin in exchange for longer life, until the Swedes stopped him from sacrificing his last son, Egil.

Heidrek in the Hervarar saga agrees to the sacrifice of his son in exchange for the command over a fourth of the men of Reidgotaland. With these, he seizes the entire kingdom and prevents the sacrifice of his son, dedicating those fallen in his rebellion to Odin instead.

Slavic people
According to sixth century Byzantine emperor Mauricius's Strategikon wrote of the Slavs[39]:

“ They don't hold their prisoners indefinitely, like other people, but, limiting their time as prisoners, offer them a choice: either to ransom their way back to home or to stay where they are, as free man and friends.[40] ”

In the 10th century, Persian explorer Ahmad ibn Rustah described funerary rights for the Rus included the sacrifice of a young female slave.[41] Leo the Deacon describes prisoner sacrifice by the Rus lead by Sviatoslav during the Russo-Byzantine War "in accordance with their ancestral custom."[42]

According to the 12th century Russian Primary Chronicle, prisoners of war were sacrificed to the supreme Slavic deity Perun. Sacrifices to pagan gods, along with paganism itself, were banned after the Baptism of Rus by Prince Vladimir I in the 980s.[43]

Archeological findings indicate that the practice may have been widespread, at least among slaves, judging from mass graves containing the cremated fragments of a number of different people.[41]


As for the Franks, they were a Germanic people. I cannot really understand your idea to cluster them next to the Latins instead of banding them with the Anglo-Saxons. Christianity is not a good excuse: Even the Latins were Pagans once, almost all of the Germanic people are (at least superficially) Christians just centuries after the Latins were Christianized. In any case, Christianity was less bloody than Paganism. Furthermore, you failed to prove how the Chistians mass-murdered all of those European Pagans who resisted Christianlity. There ain't much evidence beyond the Teutonic knights and their kingdom...



All of us has been imposed by some semitic religion from Palestine in one way or other (that incl. christianity too, remember the jesus was a jew from Palestine)

The Europeans should finally decide that the Jews did not contribute that much to the European civilization. In any case religion does no longer so much of a role in the modern European societies and our modern moral values were no less influenced by the Greco-Romans than the Jews. The abolishion of human sacrifice for example was more of a Greco-Roman milestone than a Christian one. Christianity did not abolish slavery or improve the morality of the European world in any other significant way beyond what the Greco-Roman traditions did. Even Christianity itself would not triumph without a necessary moderation into the Jewish tradition that resulted after the conquests of Alexander the Great. The New Testament is a much more civilized work of literature than the old testament...


To be able to impose a new language and a new culture without using mass education, these people of new culture have to outnumber the others, otherwise it`s not possible.
Explain how did you become Turkified then. Asia Minor or Anatolia as you fashion it lately was not utilizing an Uralic language until ~ 1000 A.D. and the real Turks definately did NOT outnumber the aboriginals. You see there is a third way: Convert or die out of mass murder. You have utilized this method very frequently, and there are proofs all the way to our times...


Without the mass education technics we have today, the majority always imposes to the minority, not the other way around. This is indeed a proof of Turkish population was a majority over the local Anatolian population since 11-12th century.

It could not be. Jared Diamond explains how a population manages to outnumber another population: Better agriculture. Indeed, the three cases in human history where a mass change of population occured was directly related to agriculture: The Blacks from West Africa developed agriculture which allowed them to dominate the most of Africa between 1 and 1000 AD except in regions where the climate required a different type of crops (Magreb and South Africa) or the mountains stopped their agriculture (parts of East Africa). In another case the South Koreans invaded and conquered almost all of Japan a few centuries after ~600 AD with a few Ainou pockets in the north - where their agriculture was less effective - while the European colonists used a panoply of guns, germs and steel but above all more effective crops in order to dominate the Americas, Australia much of South Africa, New Zealand and other places. The real nomadic herder Turks could not have possibly replaced genetically the sedentary Anatolian farmers because the latters' crops could sustain by far more people than the Turks' horses and cattles and flocks. Thus the only way to achieve a major population change would be by germs: The infaction of much of the land by new diseases, and in much smaller scale genocides. Unfortunately your theories are NOT backed up by modern findings upon genetics: The Anatolian farmers were not eliminated by the invading Turks...


Minority`s imposition to the majority is only became possible with the mass education technics of modern era. For example, French colonialists taught French to the Algerians and few 1000 British did same to the millions of Indians by using mass education technics we have today.

The Algerians still speak Arabic and the Indians speak hundreds if not thousands of local languages too. Only the Lebanese and only recently have lost their appetite for Arabic.


Do you think few 1000 British could have do the same if they would go there in 11th century?

The Brits could never do so. They were never that much savage as you were. Unfortunately for you the evidence that the Ottoman authorities were threatening people with extreme measures including death, if the latter did not learn Turkish, are out there. A tragic example were the Karamanlides who spoke Turkish but wrote in Greek. They used to speak Greek too but... They were forced to change their language:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karamanlides#Origins


Academic disputes over the origins of the Karamanlides have led to the formation of two major theories.

According to the first theory the Karamanlides descended from (religiously converted) Turkish soldiers-Turcopoles that Byzantine emperors settled in Anatolia.[1]

The second theory states that Karamanlides are the direct descendants of Greek-speaking Byzantines. Despite their linguistic Turkification, they maintained their Greek Orthodox faith. This theory is also likely as 19th century linguists were able to travel through Karamanli-speaking regions of Cappadocia and document the few remaining Greek words that mostly elderly residents could remember. Hence the process of Turkification was documented.

Nonetheless, in the age of nationalism in the 19th century, most Karamanlides identified with a sense of Greekness as distinct from their fellow Turco-phone neighbours; largely resulting from their adherence to the Greek Orthodox Church.

Many Karamanlides were forced to leave their homes during the 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey. Early estimates placed the number of Orthodox Christians expelled from central and southern Anatolia at around 100,000.[2] However, the Karamanlides were numbered at around 400,000 at the time of the exchange.[3]



The first theory is a joke, for the simple reason that the Turkopoles would not be useful on top of the Taurus mountains! Their horses would be useless. The Eastern Roman empire wanted them for their horsepower, not for scrubbing the hills in order to find either metals or a meagre crop.




No, it`s a racial term in similar sense like Germanics. Germanic people of Germany uses the term as a name of their country, just like we use in Turkey. Dutch people are Germanic too, just like Azerbaijani people are Turkic too.

The Turkic people are the Turkmen and many others around them - Tajiks, Kazakhs, Tatars... I'd rather not define what you and the Azeris really are, but the majority in this forum knows already...


The claim of most of the Turks being the local Anatolians is a lie. Especially after 1071 AD, turkic people started to migrate here in great numbers because Anatolia was kinda desolated due to internal conflicts between Armenians and Greeks and because of bad economical condition of byzantine empire. Massive turkic migrations has been written in Armenian and Byzantine records like Turks outnumbering local Anatolians by 10 to 1 in every major city

That would be impossible! The Turks DID NOT LIVE IN CITIES in the first place. They were NOMADS! Furthermore the nomadic and herding lifestyle could not have possibly outnumber the food output that has been grown by farmers, and this is a fact since farming has been invented. In fact the most scientists went as far as to believe that the majority of the modern Europeans were descendants of Neolithic farmers from the East, something that has been disproved with DNA tests only recently. The idea that a nomadic people could possibly manage to outgrow one of the oldest farming people on Earth is a theory that could find adherents only in a few poor Turks' minds...

[Petros Houhoulis]

How is the Turkification process any different from the Kurdification, Hellenization, Arabification etc. etc.?

First question: What is Kurdification? The Karduhians have been recorded since Xenophontas' Anabasis. I haven't seen any Kurdification process since. Could you please elaborate?

Secondly, Hellenization has been the spread of a superior culture over less competent ones, and this occured only after the Hellenic people spread far and wide resulting at them finding the best customs around the Mediterranean basin and beyond and adapting them to their own - which effectively means that the Hellenic culture were - by large - a fusion of other cultures as well.

Turkification was the process of violently converting a savage culture upon civilized people, or people who were positively engaged with other civilized people nearby. The proof?

The East Romans collapsed without a series of bloodsheds. The Ottoman empire started as a series of sackings of cities and other bloodsheds like the siege of Nikosia and ended with a crescendo of genocides. The entire Turkish history can be described as a trail of corpses... Either we refer to the slayings of the enemies, the slayings of minorities within the "Turkish" ethnos like the Alevis, the massacres of undisciplined females who won't have more of your savagery and forced marriages, the neglect leading to collapsing buildings - sometimes even without the prerequisite of an earthquake - or the collapse of mining caves that result to dozens of dead miners, and much more stuff.

Of course, accusations like the above can be attributed - at least partially - to other people like the Chinese. The only difference is that the Chinese have a long positive record as well which outshines their negative aspects. The Chinese have a long track record of inventions, and they used to be more advanvced technologically than the west until the Middle Ages.

By the way, it is also undisputable that the East Meditarranean used to be the most advanced region in the West from the antiquity until the arrival of the Turks... Things have been going worse especially ever since "you" arrived in the region.

Why did that hapen? Because your people were isolationists from the start: "Another Turk is the only friend of the Turk" and so on. Your stupid culture and religion forbade you from getting in contact with foreign non-believers - as if being in contact with your own Christians and Jews was any different. As a result the only ones allowed to become traders were Greeks, Jews and Armenians, who dominated your economy from within the same moment that you were only renowned for fighting - and not that much effectively really, since you did never field a proper tactical army as the Ancient Greeks or the modern Swedes. Then the Janissaries discovered that trading was more profitable that looting - especially if you could not win a fight anyway - and tried to become traders on their own, culminating with the Vaka-i Hayriye when you slaughtered them. It took you another century to expel or massacre the backbone of your economy - the non-Muslim traders - and take their place, and another half a century to start being effective economically. Better late than never, but you shouldn't mention your history prior to the 21st century AT ALL, unless if you want to be humiliated in every turn of the discussion...



Besides, how does one force a language and identity on a people? I can see this happening in modern nation-states, but not in old Empires where ethnicity was irrelevant for the most part.

It can happen by force. A lot of things can happen by force...


Especially the Ottomans didn't care much for ethnicity.

That started to change around the 19th century about everybody, unless if you imply that the "Young Turks" for example were not Ottomans... Kemal Ataturk was amongst them, you know...


I don't know how much you know about Turkey, Loki. But there are plenty of muslim groups in and around Turkey who still speak their language and/or have kept their identity (sometimes together with the Turkish identity). We also see that these people most of the time don't show any traces of Central Asian ancestry unlike the ethnic Turks. It can never be a coincidence that ethnic Turks in Turkey show obvious CA ancestry while non ethnic Turkish citizens don't. It's obvious that mixing with the new comming Turks was one of the key factors in the Turkification of Anatolia and not 'force'.

The only trouble is that the genuine Turks in Turkey are ~4% of the total population, at least according to the genetic findings that I have seen...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Modern Central Asians are not the Central Asians from a 1000 years ago. You can not use them as a approximate for the original Oghuz Turks.

But if you insist on using modern Central Asians as a approximate for the original Oghuz Turks, then you should go for the the Turkmens as they are the closest to us in both language and ancestry - They are also Oghuz Turks like us. So let's see: Turkmen people have around 15% Mongoloid admixture on average. Turkish people have 7%. So going by your logics, this would make Turkish people at least 50% Central Asian.

Going by reality...

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

I just noticed this - sorry for that, but it doesn't change much anyway:


Turkey is the only country that includes a sizeable percentage of Asian and African haplogroups not listed in this table (A, ExE1b1b, C, H, L, O, R2) representing 8.5% of the total. Haplogroup L alone makes up 4% of the Turkish population

Haplogroup "L" is South Asian:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L_(Y-DNA)

So, if we are to add the 4% of the "N" Uralic to the 5% of the "Q" Amerindian of Central Asian origin and a few more bits, you might get ~10% of the modern Turkish population as Asian. G is not too much Asian - it appears in Cantabria, Spain at a mere half percentage less than in Turkey itself. According to the wikipedia is originated somewhere in South Asia, and it is most prevalent in Caucasus, so I won't consider it Central Asian since Caucasus is NOT in central Asia. Probably the Turks near Caucasus have the highest percentage of G. R1a is not that much Central Asian either with Poland and Ukraine having huge genetic material of that type... Turkey with 7.5% does not have such a large sample despite the shiploads of Ukrainian slaves that were brought in from the Crimean khanate. J2 is three times more prevalent in Cyprus than in Turkey, thus not Central Asian for sure. J1 ia basically Jewish-Arab i.e. Semitic with 81% prevalence amongst the Marsh Arabs of South Iraq... Both J haplogroups originate from Arabia or near there. E1b1b is 2.5 times more frequent in Central Greece than in Turkey... Also more common in Bulgaria or in Cyprus. It originates in Eastern Africa anyway... The I is European, Turkey barely has them... T is too widespread but not Central Asian, most likely originates in Mesopotamia or it could be indigenous... Thus what we have been left with is:

Haplogroups Q and N 5+4 and maybe a few smaller groups going ~10%

Sorry dear, your lies do not pass. Stop deluding yourself for once...

[Mosov]

Lol, Turks are a result of a few thousand Turkic hordes coming to the Asia minor region and over time assimilating the native groups of the region, a lot of times through violent means, into their "Turkic identity" which consisted of being Muslim and speaking the Altaic language.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Yes, we have those Turks. Should not be so suprising since we were the last rulers in Anatolia and the Balkans. Those recent assimilated people come naturally. However, you can find the same assimilated people in Greece. Like the Arvanites, the Turkic Gagauz etc.



What a nonsense! Turkifying the raped children? How did that happen? Turks raped Armenian women and the children born out of those rapes were forced to learn Turkish?

Much worse. Ever heard of the Janissaries? They were the children of Christians who were abducted by Turks in order to become their army. The most horric though was the Islamic law concerning the identity of the children. The sibling of a Slave mother would be a slave, but the sibling of a free mother would be a free person. The slaves of the Ottoman empire were usually enslaved Christians, and the enslaved women preffered to become Muslim in order to save their children from slavery. Do I need to mention that Islam allowed the Muslims to marry many women? Not to mention that the slaves did not need to be wives but mere concubines..


Do you have any idea what you are saying? :D Really, if you want to make such claims, you should come up with sources. For example, if rape was one of the reason for the Turkification of Anatolia, that would show in our DNA today. Central Asian Y-DNA would be higher than mtDNA.

Generally speaking there is not much of either...


While ironically, Central Asian Y-DNA is as much common as Central Asian mtDNA. Did you know that my mtDNA is of CA origin while my father's Y-DNA is West Asian? How did that happen? My barbaric Siberian Turkic grandmother raped my poor Armenian/Greek grandfather?

A national identity is necessary in every country. Jesus Christ. Our national identity was not more necessary than the Greek or Armenian national identity.

What you really need the most is to be civilized.


Besides, most Turks were already ethnic Turk and I even have DNA to back this up. Another thing is that we are not more mixed than our neighbours.

That's irrelevant. You have very little trace of Central Asian DNA.


You can repeat that we are very mixed 938493 times but it isn't going to change anything about the fact that we don't show any more mix than our neighbours (except for Central Asian admixture).

Yet what matters the most is that you are uncivilized.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Here, this is what I mean? What the hell are you talking about? The only one I see here having a crisis with my identity are you people. I am Turkish and perfectly aware of that. While it's you guys who attack my identity. So tell me, who's having a crisis? You or me?

We are quite comfortable with the fact that we are civilized, generally speaking, and we are only uncomfortable with the fact that we live next to uncivilized people.

We won't force an identity upon you just by debating in this forum. Some others have done so quite a long time ago to your ancestors. The rest is nonsense.

[Petros Houhoulis]

No, because they are not Turks either. You don't get the point. It's not about speaking Turkish only. It's a combination of things. It's language, ancestry and self-identification. The ethnic Turks don't speak Turkish only, but they also self-identify as Turk simply because that's what they learned from their ancestors. Most of the Turks don't know of any other ancestry than Turkish and therefore are considered ethnic Turks. DNA test show that those Turks also have CA ancestry unlike mixed Turks or non-ethnic Turkish people like the Laz, Georgians, Hemshins, Kurds, Arabs, Pomaks, Greeks etc.

The only things that bind you are language and self-identification. Your DNA claims have been proven a mere hallucination of yours.

[Petros Houhoulis]

This is after the modern state was born. The Turkish state did force the Kurds to assimilate by forbidding their language and denying their presence. However, it failed massively. Which again shows me that you can not force people into becomming a Turk and that becomming a Turk is much more complex than being 'forced' or speaking Turkish only.

The U.S.Americans invaded Iraq and they also failed massively according to your standards. Nevertheless, the English managed to conquer the 1/4 of the worlds' surface a century before, including Iraq.

You should not confuse the events of the 20th century with the centuries before it. Although people tend to consider the 20th century as the bloodiest in the history of mankind, in reality it was the century that allowed the multiplication of mankind from just above 1 billion people to almost 7 billion. It was a VERY PROSPEROUS century, and the most civilized century in the history of mankind. During this century it has becoming less and less possible to destroy the free will of any people, including your Kurds.

Before that time though, your Ottoman savagery became very fruitful at ruining one of the most civilized regions in the world. The Eastern Mediterranean was still more advanced than the rest of "the West" until "your" savage ancestors stepped in. Those savages wiped out many cultures in their passing.