How the Occitan language sounds to you?

[Peyrol]

It's spoken in my region, especially in southern and eastern parts.

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[Libertas]

Very beautiful

[Peyrol]

Very beautiful

How sounds to you?
Similar to standard italian, french, catalan, etc...?

[Sikeliot]

It sounds like Italian to me. Maybe not exactly standard Italian but that is the closest thing that comes to mind.

[Libertas]

It's like Catalan or an altered French.

[Peyrol]

It sounds like Italian to me. Maybe not exactly standard Italian but that is the closest thing that comes to mind.

Thank you for the impression :D

Non piedmonteis italians always confuse this language for french:D


This is the geographical diffusion of the language

http://www.eurominority.eu/documents/cartes/occitania.gif

[Libertas]

Occitan and Catalan are close.

How close are Piedmontese and Catalan?

[Sikeliot]

Non piedmonteis italians always confuse this language for french:D


Sounds nothing like French to me.

[Peyrol]

Occitan and Catalan are close.

How close are Piedmontese and Catalan?

Piedmonteis, until 1200, was an occitane dialect, but after it's heavy lombardized, in the same way catalan was "castlillized" by spanish dominators.

They're definitely closed, but quite differents now.


BTW...spoken piedmonteis

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[Libertas]

No, it sounds Catalan but some words resemble mispronounced French and Occitan is the former speech of southern France, now surviving only in pockets.

[Libertas]

Piedmonteis, until 1200, was an occitane dialect, but after it's heavy lombardized, in the same way catalan was "castlillized" by spanish dominators.

They're definitely closed, but quite differents now.


BTW...spoken piedmonteis

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Thanks.

Savoy/Piedmont could easily have become part of some great Occitan state but for the Albigensian Crusade when the Northern French shafted a great culture.

[Peyrol]

No, it sounds Catalan but some words resemble mispronounced French and Occitan is the former speech of southern France, now surviving only in pockets.

Occitan as language has about 40,000-50,000 mother tongue speakers here in Piedmont (especially in the provinces of Torino and Cuneo), while piedmonteis about 2 million speakers (and other 4 million speakers in Argentina and other 2 millions in Brazil).

[Comte Arnau]

Aqueres montanhes (Those mountains) in the Gascon version from the Aran Valley (NW Catalonia). So that you get an idea of what 'Iberianized' Occitan sounds like. :)



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[Óttar]

Portuguese.

[Peyrol]

Aqueres montanhes (Those mountains) in the Gascon version from the Aran Valley (NW Catalonia). So that you get an idea of what 'Iberianized' Occitan sounds like. :)



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Actually, seems that grammar isn't so varied (except for the use of the "s"..."chantES" instead of "ChantO"), but the pronunciation has something of iberian to my ears.

[Peyrol]

It's a shame that we haven't active members from France...it's would be interesting see examples of provenzal or aquitaine occitan...

[Damião de Góis]

First video has a spanish sound to it, while the next two sound more italian. But this is subjective because they are songs.

I don't get anything by the way

[Comte Arnau]

First video has a spanish sound to it, while the next two sound more italian. But this is subjective because they are songs.

I don't get anything by the way

These are not songs:

"French-sounding" Occitan:
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"Iberian-sounding" Occitan. The one I understand completely. :D

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[Damião de Góis]

The "iberian" one sounds more natural and better. The french girl seems like she's making a bit of an effort :p

[Comte Arnau]

The "iberian" one sounds more natural and better. The french girl seems like she's making a bit of an effort :p

That is because Occitan is still vigorous in the Aran Valley, although in decline. I worked there and had a colleague (hot woman, btw) who would speak to me in Catalan and then change to her native Occitan when speaking to her relatives, speaking it so fast I sometimes got lost.

In France, I'd say only some old people are really native speakers who think in it and speak it fluently and fastly.

[Osweo]

Curious, it really does sound like a 'happy medium' between the rather strong (to my ears) eccentricities of the surrounding major tongues. I liked the very first song best. :p

[Peyrol]

Curious, it really does sound like a 'happy medium' between the rather strong (to my ears) eccentricities of the surrounding major tongues. I liked the very first song best. :p

Yes it's a very musical language...sounds very medieval...the perfect mediation between italian/french/catalan/spanish...it's sufficient see the geographical position.

Definitely one of the best romance/latin language. It's a shame that, except for northern Italy and Spain, it isn't tutelated by law.

[AR89]

Yes it's a very musical language...sounds very medieval...the perfect mediation between italian/french/catalan/spanish...it's sufficient see the geographical position.

Definitely one of the best romance/latin language. It's a shame that, except for northern Italy and Spain, it isn't tutelated by law.

It is spoken in Calabria too, the Valdesi that (tried) to excape the Inquisition made many villages in the northen part, some of them still speak occitan.

[billErobreren]

huh, didn't know it was still alive. anyways to me Catalan is the closest sounding one

[Anthropologique]

Sounds like a blend of Catalan (primarily), Italian and French.

[Odoacer]

Never have heard it before, but to me it sounds like either Hispanicized Italian or Italicized Spanish. :P

Nice in any case.

[Peyrol]

huh, didn't know it was still alive. anyways to me Catalan is the closest sounding one


Sounds like a blend of Catalan (primarily), Italian and French.


Never have heard it before, but to me it sounds like either Hispanicized Italian or Italicized Spanish. :P

Nice in any case.


The language has about 4 million of native speakers and other 12 million of non-native speakers.

Yes, it's definitely one of the best romance languages...see the historical area of diffusion and you could understand why sounds french, catalan and italian :D

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Occitanie.svg/313px-Occitanie.svg.png

[Comte Arnau]

The language has about 4 million of native speakers and other 12 million of non-native speakers.

Yes, it's definitely one of the best romance languages...see the historical area of diffusion and you could understand why sounds french, catalan and italian :D

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Occitanie.svg/313px-Occitanie.svg.png


Hmmm, I'd personally say that those 4 million of native speakers are unfortunately a bit too optimistic... :(

[Amapola]

the rather strong (to my ears) eccentricities of the surrounding major tongues.

:mmmm:

[StonyArabia]

It sounds like French to me but little bit heavier.

[Peyrol]

Hmmm, I'd personally say that those 4 million of native speakers are unfortunately a bit too optimistic... :(

Mhh...the last census was in 2005, and could be, because the entire are has about 20 million people.

[Peyrol]

It sounds like French to me but little bit heavier.


In the pronunciation?

[Ouistreham]

How sounds to you?
Similar to standard italian, french, catalan, etc...?

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It sounds differently from most other Occitan dialects. Stressed syllables have somewhat more present, vowels are more open and sonorous, and those rolled 'r'... Well, it's just Italianized Provençal.

(Maybe is it just the way Provençal should and (used to) be pronounced... I have heard that the purest form of Occitan is spoken in the Piedmontese Alps)

Its tonal quality makes it logically very close to Nissart, the Provençal dialect of Nice, which is even more influenced by Italian in its grammar but has been contaminated by the French uvular "r", as exemplified by Nissa la Bella, Nice's national anthem (I suppose a Piedmontese can understand it right away):

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This one is interesting. "Se Canto" is an old Occitan anthem that is very popular from Gascony to the Piedmontese valleys, but this version uses the specific North-Provençal dialect, that says "Se (t)chanto" instead (a transitional pronounciation to Franco-Provençal and French):

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This is the way it is sung in Toulouse (a choir of 500 people in front of the town hall !) :

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[Peyrol]

^

Very interesting analysis, Ouistreham.

Actually, Sergio Berardo (the singer of Lou Dalfin) is from Val Maira (Val Macra in cuneoise occitan), a small valley near Cuneo when Occitan is still alive (and protected by law) and spoken. The same singer is occitan mother-tongue.

I met him some months ago in the Piedmontes-Occitan fest, and he told me that there are also pronunciation difference between the cuneois valleys!

Yes, nicoise sounds very similar both to monegasque and mentonoise, but i noticed that monegasque is more "ligurized" (by genoese dialect of Savona and Ventimiglia) than piedmonteis occitan.

[Comte Arnau]

Se canta has even crossed borders. :) This is a version in Aragonese (a language which has traditionally been in contact with Gascon), sung by the late Labordeta. As you see, there are similarities, but it clearly sounds much more Basco-Iberian.


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[Ouistreham]

Yes, nicoise sounds very similar both to monegasque and mentonoise, but i noticed that monegasque is more "ligurized" (by genoese dialect of Savona and Ventimiglia) than piedmonteis occitan.

Quite right. In ancient times the ethnic divide between Gallia and Italia was in La Turbie and ran through Monaco. The Principalty of Monaco is the world's smallest state but in the 19th century five languages used to be spoken there: standard French and/or Italian in the educated classes, while depending of their origins common people spoke like in Nice (Occitan) or in Ventimiglia (ligurian), Monegasque being a transitional blend of both! (Like in Menton or Briga).

(Now it's more like French + English)

There was a similar situation at that time in some small North Frisian (German) islands: basically every fisherman was able to speak Frisian, Low Saxon (or Platt), standard Dutch (not so different from the later), standard High German, and often Danish too.

[Peyrol]

Quite right. In ancient times the ethnic divide between Gallia and Italia was in La Turbie and ran through Monaco. The Principalty of Monaco is the world's smallest state but in the 19th century five languages used to be spoken there: standard French and/or Italian in the educated classes, while depending of their origins common people spoke like in Nice (Occitan) or in Ventimiglia (ligurian), Monegasque being a transitional blend of both! (Like in Menton or Briga).

(Now it's more like French + English)

There was a similar situation at that time in some small North Frisian (German) islands: basically every fisherman was able to speak Frisian, Low Saxon, standard Dutch (not so different from the later), standard High German, and often Danish too.

Same here in Piedmont between XI century and XIX (but also now)...here are/were spoken piedmonteis, arpitan, italian, occitane and western lombard.

I never heard live speaking nicoise, but i read some Garibaldi's written and the language isn't so difficult (IMHO, for me).

Mentonoise is near extinct, if i remember well..it's a shame.

[Harmonia]

Sounds close to Italian. Though, it sometimes has a Spanish sound to it as well.

[Peyrol]

Sounds close to Italian. Though, it sometimes has a Spanish sound to it as well.

Thank you for the feedback.

I think that from your baltic perspective, romance languages may sounds very closed each other.:D

[Harmonia]

Thank you for the feedback.

I think that from your baltic perspective, romance languages may sounds very closed each other.:D

Haha, you're quite right :D though, French and Romanian doesn't sound very close to other Romance languages, imo.

[Peyrol]

Haha, you're quite right :D though, French and Romanian doesn't sound very close to other Romance languages, imo.

Standard italian and spanish are often misunderstood by foreigners, even by anglosaxon, slavic or germanic people.
Don't worry :p

Anyway, yes....occitan is the perfect mediation between the three "great" latin languages, french italian and castillian spanish.

[Sikeliot]

Haha, you're quite right :D though, French and Romanian doesn't sound very close to other Romance languages, imo.

I think Romanian sounds more like Spanish in sound than Portuguese does (even though lexically this is not the case) :eek::eek:

[karan]

Italian version of Catalan. :)

[Harmonia]

I think Romanian sounds more like Spanish in sound than Portuguese does (even though lexically this is not the case) :eek::eek:

To my ear, Romanian sounds closest to Italian, but still not very similar.

[Sikeliot]

To my ear, Romanian sounds closest to Italian, but still not very similar.

More similar to it than European Portuguese sounds. Even the other users here from Portugal can confirm this.

[Racial Observer 1814]

Sounds like French/Spanish. Bien, bien, belle. Very beautiful.:):)

[Peyrol]

To my ear, Romanian sounds closest to Italian, but still not very similar.

Romanian is the last survived of the eastern roman languages (pannonic, illirian, tracian, crimean genovese), who are disappeared after slavic settlements in the area (with the exception of dalmatian, that survived until 1898 and istro-roman who is still spoken nowadays).

There are more than 1,200,000 romanians here, i know these people very well...the spoken language sounds very slavized, while the written one is quite easy.

[Peyrol]

Anyway...written occitan, from the "Divina Commedia" of Dante alighieri (the speaker is the occitan poet Arnaut Daniel):

"Tan m'abellis vostre cortes deman,
qu’ieu no me puesc ni voill a vos cobrire.
Ieu sui Arnaut, que plor e vau cantan;
consiros vei la passada folor,
e vei jausen lo joi qu'esper, denan.
Ara vos prec, per aquella valor
que vos guida al som de l'escalina,
sovenha vos a temps de ma dolor!”.

[Comte Arnau]

Anyway...written occitan, from the "Divina Commedia" of Dante alighieri (the speaker is the occitan poet Arnaut Daniel):

"Tan m'abellis vostre cortes deman,
qu’ieu no me puesc ni voill a vos cobrire.
Ieu sui Arnaut, que plor e vau cantan;
consiros vei la passada folor,
e vei jausen lo joi qu'esper, denan.
Ara vos prec, per aquella valor
que vos guida al som de l'escalina,
sovenha vos a temps de ma dolor!”.

Arnaut Daniel? Nah, Dante dedicated it to me. :D

[Peyrol]

Arnaut Daniel? Nah, Dante dedicated it to me. :D

The surnames "Arnaud" and "Arnaudo" are also present here....wonder in what region? Not surprising...:D

http://www.gens.info/lib/cog/maps/cognomi-prov/A/ARNAUD.gif

http://www.gens.info/lib/cog/maps/cognomi-prov/A/ARNAUDO.gif

[Comte Arnau]

Is it also used as a first name? In Catalonia Arnau is quite common.

[Geronimo]

1. Catalan 2. Italian 3. French ... beautiful language :thumb001:

[Peyrol]

Is it also used as a first name? In Catalonia Arnau is quite common.

Was used as proper name until 1880-1900...now it's only a surname or a nickname that indicate a man from Cuneo valleys.

[Peyrol]

OT: it's also interesting see how poetic medieval italian was influenced in some ways by the prose of the troubadour occitan poets...see for example some extracts of the "Divina Commedia" by Dante:

[...] Ed ecco, quasi al cominciar de l'erta,
una lonza leggera e presta molto,
che di pel macolato era coverta;

e non mi si partia dinanzi al volto,
anzi ’mpediva tanto il mio cammino,
ch’i’ fui per ritornar più volte vòlto. [...]


[...] Rispuosemi: "Non omo, omo già fui,
e li parenti miei furon lombardi,
mantoani per patrïa ambedui.

Nacqui sub Iulio, ancor che fosse tardi,
e vissi a Roma sotto ’l buono Augusto
nel tempo de li dèi falsi e bugiardi. [...]


The influence is also very visible in the Saint Francis writtens:

"Altissimu onnipotente bonsignore. tue so’le laude la gloria e l’honore et onne benedictione. Ad te solo altissimo se konfano. et nullu homo ene dignu te mentovare. [p. 2]Laudato sie mi signore cun tucte le tue creature, spetialmente messor lo frate sole, lo qual è iorno et allumini noi per loi. Et ellu è bellu e radiante cun grande splendore, de te altissimo porta significatione. Laudato si’ mi signore per sora luna e le stelle, in celu l’ai formate clarite et pretiose et belle. Laudato si’ mi signore per frate vento et per aere et nubilo et sereno et onne tempo, per lo quale a le tue creature dai sustentamento. [...]"


It isn't so difficult to understand (for me), but both the written are "polluted" of archaisms and occitanisms.

[Arthur Scharrenhans]

I've studied Old Provençal, which I found beautiful. Modern Occitanian dialects can sound a bit too French-influenced sometimes. But overall, it's a nice language, and quite easy to understand for people with a background in any other Romance language, 'cause being geographically central with respect to Italian, French and Spanish it shares many features with all of them, while avoiding the most 'extreme' ones. Moreover, it's very similar to Northern Italian dialects.

[Peyrol]

I've studied Old Provençal, which I found beautiful. Modern Occitanian dialects can sound a bit too French-influenced sometimes. But overall, it's a nice language, and quite easy to understand for people with a background in any other Romance language, 'cause being geographically central with respect to Italian, French and Spanish it shares many features with all of them, while avoiding the most 'extreme' ones. Moreover, it's very similar to Northern Italian dialects.

Quite easy to understand, especially by piedmonteises or arpitan speakers.

[Comte Arnau]

This is the Cançon de Santa Fe, one of the oldest literary texts in a Romance language (~1060s), which scholars still don't agree if it's Occitan or Catalan... or both. How much can you get?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Manuscrit_de_la_can%C3%A7%C3%B3_de_Santa_Fe.jpg

LA CANÇON DE SANTA FE

L)egir audi, sotz eiss un pin,
Del vèll temps, un libre latin;
Tot l’escoltei trò a la fin.
Hanc non fo senz qe'l non'l declin
Parlèd del pair’al rei Licin
E del linnatg’al Maximin;
Cel méiro.Is saintz en tal traïn
Con fa.l venaire’ls cèrvs matin :
A clusa.ls menan, et a fin;
Mòrtz los laissavan, en’sopin,
Jazon e’ls camps Cuma fradin,
No’ls sebelliron lur vizin,
Czò fo pròb del temps Constantin.

Canczon audi q 'es bèlla’n tresca
Que fo de razo espanesca :
Non fo de paraulla grezesca.
Ne de lenga serrazinesca,
Dozq e suaus es plus que bresca,
E plus qu nulz pimentz q’òm mesca.
Qi ben la diz a lei francesca,
Cuig me qe sos granz pros l’en cresca
E q’en sègle l’en pareca.

Tota Basconn’ et Aragons
E l’encontrada delz Gascons
Sabon quals es aqist canczons
E s’es ben vera ‘sta razons.
Eu l’audi legir a clerczons
Et a gramàdis, a molt bons,
Si qon o mònstra.l passion
En que òm lig estas leiczons.
E, si vos plaz est nòstre tons,
Aisï con.l guida.l primers tons,
Éu la vos cantarèi en dons.

[Peyrol]

This is the Cançon de Santa Fe, one of the oldest literary texts in a Romance language (~1060s), which scholars still don't agree if it's Occitan or Catalan... or both. How much can you get?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Manuscrit_de_la_can%C3%A7%C3%B3_de_Santa_Fe.jpg

LA CANÇON DE SANTA FE

L)egir audi, sotz eiss un pin,
Del vèll temps, un libre latin;
Tot l’escoltei trò a la fin.
Hanc non fo senz qe'l non'l declin
Parlèd del pair’al rei Licin
E del linnatg’al Maximin;
Cel méiro.Is saintz en tal traïn
Con fa.l venaire’ls cèrvs matin :
A clusa.ls menan, et a fin;
Mòrtz los laissavan, en’sopin,
Jazon e’ls camps Cuma fradin,
No’ls sebelliron lur vizin,
Czò fo pròb del temps Constantin.

Canczon audi q 'es bèlla’n tresca
Que fo de razo espanesca :
Non fo de paraulla grezesca.
Ne de lenga serrazinesca,
Dozq e suaus es plus que bresca,
E plus qu nulz pimentz q’òm mesca.
Qi ben la diz a lei francesca,
Cuig me qe sos granz pros l’en cresca
E q’en sègle l’en pareca.

Tota Basconn’ et Aragons
E l’encontrada delz Gascons
Sabon quals es aqist canczons
E s’es ben vera ‘sta razons.
Eu l’audi legir a clerczons
Et a gramàdis, a molt bons,
Si qon o mònstra.l passion
En que òm lig estas leiczons.
E, si vos plaz est nòstre tons,
Aisï con.l guida.l primers tons,
Éu la vos cantarèi en dons.

Mmmhhh...in this time, the difference between dialects of lengua d'oc weren't so defined as now...i believe that a kind of proto-occicatalan were spoken in a great areal from Ulldecona to Pavia.

[Comte Arnau]

Mmmhhh...in this time, the difference between dialects of lengua d'oc weren't so defined as now...i believe that a kond of proto-occicatalan were spoken in a great areal from Ulldecona to Pavia.

I totally agree. Besides, both modern Occitan and Catalan are a bit far from this. One needs a bit of training in old terms and ways.

However, I guess some features point to somewhere in the Pyrenees, I guess. And if one pays attention to the meaning, it kind of says:

I heard a song made to dance
The theme was Hispanic
It wasn't written in Greek
Nor in the Saracen language either,
Sweeter than honey it is...

All Basques and the whole of Aragon
And the homeland of the Gascons
Know this song well.

[Peyrol]

I totally agree. Besides, both modern Occitan and Catalan are a bit far from this. One needs a bit of training in old terms and ways.

However, I guess some features point to somewhere in the Pyrenees, I guess. And if one pays attention to the meaning, it kind of says:

I heard a song made to dance
The theme was Hispanic
It wasn't written in Greek
Nor in the Saracen language either,
Sweeter than honey it is...

All Basques and the whole of Aragon
And the homeland of the Gascons
Know this song well.

Just a curiosity: how these popular piedmontes proverbs sounds to you?


Galina veja a fa bòn brod

Ël pan ed sèira a l'è bon l'indoman

Intant che l'erba crès 'l caval a meuir

L'asu 'ia el pertus rutund ma a fa el burlè quadrà.

La madre a dà; la madrastra a dis: «It na veule?»

Loda 'l brich e tente a la piana

Temp e paja fan meirè i puciu.

[Foxy]

It sound very beautiful, it reminds me some medio-romance languages, in particular medieval French before the uvular R was introduced. We should adopt this as national language for its armony and pleasantness.

To FOREIGNERS: does standard Italian sounds similar to this? Because if it does I want speak any foreign language anymore... :P

[Rouxinol]

Phonetically, a mix of Italian + Spanish + hints of French. That's what it sounds to my ears.

[Vasconcelos]

It's like Catalan or an altered French.

Yes, with a touch of Italian..supprisingly (or maybe not) beautiful.

Have a friend who's father's side of the family is from Montpellier*, maybe he knows a bit of this language, have to talk to him about it.

*mother's side is Portuguese (northern aswell, iirc)

[Peyrol]

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Dcaz3mXY-zc

0f6I_roO7RM

[Comte Arnau]

Just a curiosity: how these popular piedmontes proverbs sounds to you?


Galina veja a fa bòn brod

Ël pan ed sèira a l'è bon l'indoman

Intant che l'erba crès 'l caval a meuir

L'asu 'ia el pertus rutund ma a fa el burlè quadrà.

La madre a dà; la madrastra a dis: «It na veule?»

Loda 'l brich e tente a la piana

Temp e paja fan meirè i puciu.


Oops, I hadn't seen this.

To be honest, the only one which I understand perfectly is the first one. In Catalan we would say: Gallina vella fa bon brou. :)

I understand most other words (although not necessarily the meaning of the proverb). There are some words I don't get, though. And the loda'l brich e tente a la piana is like... what? :confused:

Nice ones. :thumb001:

[Peyrol]

Oops, I hadn't seen this.

To be honest, the only one which I understand perfectly is the first one. In Catalan we would say: Gallina vella fa bon brou. :)

I understand most other words (although not necessarily the meaning of the proverb). There are some words I don't get, though. And the loda'l brich e tente a la piana is like... what? :confused:

Nice ones. :thumb001:

It means "celebrate the mountain, but rest in the plain"..anyway this is piedmonteis, not proper occitane. :D

What word are "obscure" for you?

[Comte Arnau]

It means "celebrate the mountain, but rest in the plain"..anyway this is piedmonteis, not proper occitane. :D

What word are "obscure" for you?

Oh, now I see it. LAUDARE, TENERE+SE, PLANA.

But I can't see the brich=mountain. Is it a Germanism, from BERG, maybe?

[Peyrol]

Oh, now I see it. LAUDARE, TENERE+SE, PLANA.

But I can't see the brich=mountain. Is it a Germanism, from BERG, maybe?

Yes, derives from the longobard "Brech" that mean "protruding rock".
There are also some uniques word in piemonteis..."Pertus" for say "hole", "Crin" for "pig", etc.

[Peyrol]

I love so much this "Valadois" song...she has something of argentinian and balkanic in the melody :D

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[Heraus]

Alpine Provençal as spoken in the Italian Alps sounds Italian. It has been heavily butchered by Italian prosody.

That's what genuine Vivaro-Alpin is supposed to sound like :

zvaUT7lYoYc

[Peyrol]

Another great song...i don't know which occitan dialect is this.

lGg3ut9fhIc

[Comte Arnau]

Another great song...i don't know which occitan dialect is this.

lGg3ut9fhIc

Definitely not Gascon, and it doesn't sound to me like Provençal or a Northern one. I'd say it's Central Occitan, although I can only understand some words here and there.

[Flintlocke]

http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/nou_occitania__234552.gif

[Peyrol]

http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/nou_occitania__234552.gif

With the star, is the independentistic flag. :D

[Comte Arnau]

We Catalans have it difficult. For Occitans, it's virtually impossible.

[Peyrol]

We Catalans have it difficult. For Occitans, it's virtually impossible.

It's impossible because occitan active speakers are about 2-4 million in an aea with 25-28 million inhabitants.

[Comte Arnau]

It's impossible because occitan active speakers are about 2-4 million in an aea with 25-28 million inhabitants.

That's a too optimistic figure.

[Ouistreham]

Another great song...i don't know which occitan dialect is this.

lGg3ut9fhIc

OMG this is WONDERFUL.
What a beautiful piece.

I have no clue which dialect it might be (I can't grasp a single word of what is said, Occitan dialects are bizarrely quite obscure to us — Tuscan and Castilian, whith their clearly defined phonological systems, offer more transparency), but I bet the combo that plays it must be Italian (there's lika a "tarantella vibe" in that tune).

[Peyrol]

OMG this is WONDERFUL.
What a beautiful piece.

I have no clue which dialect it might be (I can't grasp a single word of what is said, Occitan dialects are bizarrely quite obscure to us — Tuscan and Castilian, whith their clearly defined phonological systems, offer more transparency), but I bet the combo that plays it must be Italian (there's lika a "tarantella vibe" in that tune).

There is also this version (Mercantour Occitan, the "Roiasc"):

http://www.myspace.com/music/player?sid=45022243&ac=now
^

This has something ligurian in the sound

[Mauritius]

Occitan sounds more "Central Italian" than the dialects found in Northern Italy, that can share more with French (some of them can sound somewhat excessively singy songy, heavy, and personally, I find some of them annoying; the worst part for me is the thick northern Italian accent) as Celtic influence as been historically greater in Northern Italy than Southern France.. I find it an in between of Italian and French, French with an Italian intonation and style; Catalan in comparison is too Castillian sounding, especially the current version influenced by it, while Occitan is more singy-songy without being excessive, I love it.. Sad that it's dying, or is, anyways, being deeply influenced by French..

[Peyrol]

Occitan sounds more "Central Italian" than the dialects found in Northern Italy, that can share more with French (some of them can sound somewhat excessively singy songy, heavy, and personally, I find some of them annoying; the worst part for me is the thick northern Italian accent) as Celtic influence as been historically greater in Northern Italy than Southern France.. I find it an in between of Italian and French, French with an Italian intonation and style; Catalan in comparison is too Castillian sounding, especially the current version influenced by it, while Occitan is more singy-songy without being excessive, I love it.. Sad that it's dying, or is, anyways, being deeply influenced by French..

The "conservation areals" are basically two: Val D'Aran in Catalogna and Valadas Occitanas here in Piemont (in both the place, even the language is declining, is still vigorous).
The problem is that these places are literally cutted away from the main part of the occitan world: Languedoc, Alvernha, Provence, Lemosin, Gasconha, etc).

[Mauritius]

The "conservation areals" are basically two: Val D'Aran in Catalogna and Valadas Occitanas here in Piemont (in both the place, even the language is declining, is still vigorous).
The problem is that these places are literally cutted away from the main part of the occitan world: Languedoc, Alvernha, Provence, Lemosin, Gasconha, etc).
And they also sound quite like the neighbouring country languages in those places.. For example Aranese has a typical Castillian intonation, "Italian Occitan" is incredibly Piedmontese sounding.. either way, the pure Occitan sound is doomed, and it's quite sad.. I blame the French linguistic laws(or rather, absence of) for that, they're doing the same things in other parts of France too (like Corsica).. at least in Spain (especially) and Italy regional languages are more protected and there's far less stigma attached to them..

[Peyrol]

And they also sound quite like the neighbouring country languages in those places.. For example Aranese has a typical Castillian intonation, "Italian Occitan" is incredibly Piedmontese sounding.. either way, the pure Occitan sound is doomed, and it's quite sad.. I blame the French linguistic laws(or rather, absence of) for that, they're doing the same things in other parts of France too (like Corsica).. at least in Spain (especially) and Italy regional languages are more protected and there's far less stigma attached to them..

Is impossible talk about "true occitan sound", because also the remnant of "'french"' occitan dialects are heavy oilized in the pronunciation, especially gascòn, alvernhat and lemosinasc.

Anyway, also piemontes was an occitan dialect before 1500. It became more "lombardized" when Maison Savoie expanded their little state to the padanian plain.

Just read the sermoni subalpini (XII century), which are written in a kind of Piemontàl:

Les desmes et les primicies li Chrestien feel Deu devent doner a sainte Eglise e as preveires et pauperibus, e devez saver por quei e per quel auctorité furent trovees. Tut premerement que Deus feist nule creature, sì fist dez ordines d'angeles...(...);Freres, zo dit l'Apostol, ben est ora que nos levem de dormir. Aquest soig si est en tuit l'omes qui son en aquest sevol, car tuit li omen qui vivun sunt plen de coveitise e s'adorment en lor peccai; e enperò tut zo que il cobiten tut est trespasable, tut est ... . E lo Prophete dit deil ric homes;

[Mauritius]

Is impossible talk about "true occitan sound", because also the remnant of "'french"' occitan dialects are heavy oilized in the pronunciation, especially gascòn, alvernhat and lemosinasc.

Anyway, also piemontes was an occitan dialect before 1500. It became more "lombardized" when Maison Savoie expanded their little state to the padanian plain.

Just read the sermoni subalpini (XII century), which are written in a kind of Piemontàl:

Les desmes et les primicies li Chrestien feel Deu devent doner a sainte Eglise e as preveires et pauperibus, e devez saver por quei e per quel auctorité furent trovees. Tut premerement que Deus feist nule creature, sì fist dez ordines d'angeles...(...);Freres, zo dit l'Apostol, ben est ora que nos levem de dormir. Aquest soig si est en tuit l'omes qui son en aquest sevol, car tuit li omen qui vivun sunt plen de coveitise e s'adorment en lor peccai; e enperò tut zo que il cobiten tut est trespasable, tut est ... . E lo Prophete dit deil ric homes;

Well, Provençal and Languedocian have remained less "untouched" for sure, but yes, every Occitan variation is quite independent, yet, the more typical Occitan sound is considered the one found in those two varieties; they're also the ones that sounds less French and hence original.. I'm not surprised to find out Piedmont was Occitan speaking as there's always been a continuum of those languages, yet, there's also many differences, just like between Catalan and Occitan proper.. As for Gascon, it seems to have, as well as some Oïl influences, also more profound Iberian-Basque ones (the loss of initial f- is an example)

[Comte Arnau]

Catalan in comparison is too Castillian sounding,

For a non-Iberian.

But this song in Catalan sounds Italian to an Iberian ear. ;)


cBeqhSfvUvc

And Catalan speakers from North Catalonia have a French intonation to our ears.

[Peyrol]

Piras? Lol, this is a ubersardinian surname:D

[Comte Arnau]

Piras? Lol, this is a ubersardinian surname:D

I'd say most Catalan-speaking Algherese have a Sardinian surname. Franca Masu, Antonel·lo Colledanchise, Lluciana Sari...

[Peyrol]

I'd say most Catalan-speaking Algherese have a Sardinian surname. Franca Masu, Antonel·lo Colledanchise, Lluciana Sari...

There are probabily more pseudocatalan surnames here in Piemont than in Alghero.

[Mauritius]

For a non-Iberian.

But this song in Catalan sounds Italian to an Iberian ear. ;)


cBeqhSfvUvc

And Catalan speakers from North Catalonia have a French intonation to our ears.

It may sound to you, for us it sounds like a typical Sardinian accent, that it's very very typical in Italy! They double almost every consonant and have a typical intonation that many describe (sadly) as "sheepy" :D.. Italian intonations and accents vary much more than in Spain, between region and region and even provinces and just a few km2, as do dialects (because of a more "laissez-faire" attitude when speaking Italian and normal profound differences eradicated in time), so you'll find the real sound of typical neutral Italian only in Central Italy, more in Latio/Tuscany regions, center Italy being the only parts without substrata.. South/Deep South and North West/North East have a LOT of differences, in dialects and accents.. But both Sardinian and Alguerese Catalan (and standard Catalan) are beautiful sounding :)

[Peyrol]

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[Peyrol]

Nissard

FsqD_U3ne6I

[Peyrol]

Aquitane

Xk1W22yHLJQ

ArrbdR_l4eo

v19x1Pqr69c

[Peyrol]

This is very interesting, especially the last minute...the Hurdy Gurdy in the Middle Ages seem to be common among north, south and western Europe.

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[Hesperión]

Piedmonteis, until 1200, was an occitane dialect, but after it's heavy lombardized, in the same way catalan was "castlillized" by spanish dominators.Catalan was "castillized" (mean 'castilianised'?)? First time I hear that.

The only place where an Occitan language (Gascon) is well alive (spoken by the majority of the population on their day-to-day lifes, with an official status and taught in the schools) is in Val d'Aran, a Pyrenaic valley in Spain. I have a house there and to me it sounds distinctive from Catalan.

When I hear it there are sounds that are similar to Catalan, others similar to French, and yet others similar to Castilian. But nothing reminds me of Italian.

A video promoting the Aranese language
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[Peyrol]

Infact there is nothing of italian (also because standard italian as spoken day-by-day language exist only since 1861-1910 circa, so i don't know what influence qould had on occitan who is a millenarian language) in the language, but many other people who wrote in the prevoous pages said the opposite...:lol:

[Hesperión]

but many other people who wrote in the prevoous pages said the opposite...:lol:I suppose that perceptions are different according to the degree of familiarity that you have with all these languages.

The first time I ever heard Aranese I was a bit surprised because I expected it to have a sound more similar to Catalan.

This is how I perceive it: Occitan has a highly melodic tone, a language fit for trobadours, whereas Castilian has a strongly harsh tone, a language fit for warriors. So even if both are close romance languages, there is a clear difference there. Catalan (I'm referring to Eastern Catalan, which is what might be considered as 'standard' or 'official' Catalan) instead is a bit trickier to define in this context, but my perception is that of a vulgar tone, fit for peasants. It's unsurprising thereafter that the great figures of 'Catalan' classic literature were mostly Valencians. Valencian language being, originally, a dialect of Western Catalan.

Also, in Val d'Aran, though being a small valley, past the turn to Eth Portilhon (a mountain port) on the road to France, the accent takes on a slightly more French tone.

I remember once that I mistook a local from Canejan who was talking to me in Castilian, for a Galician.

[Comte Arnau]

but my perception is that of a vulgar tone, fit for peasants.

Lol.


It's unsurprising thereafter that the great figures of 'Catalan' classic literature were mostly Valencians.

Double lol.


Valencian language being, originally, a dialect of Western Catalan.

Triple loop lol.

[Hesperión]

Is it also used as a first name? In Catalonia Arnau is quite common.Arnau, Lanau, Guirau, Ganau, Grau, Barrau ... are surnames that seem to have originated in the eastern parts of pyrenaic Aragon and perhaps extended from there into western parts of Catalonia. In Eastern Catalonia the trailing -au becomes -al.

I don't know if this trailing -au comes as an influence from the Gascon language, where words typically ending with -al in Occitan, Castilian and Catalan, become -au (e.g. general -> generau), or of Aragonese.

I've wondered about this because of my surname, which is one such and it's found in the area of the ancient pyrenaic County of Ribagorsa.

[Hesperión]

Lol.

Double lol.

Triple loop lol.Definition 1) applies:


lol

It's original definition was "Laughing out loud" (also written occasionally as "Lots of Laughs"), used as a brief acronym to denote great amusement in chat conversations.

Now, it is overused to the point where nobody laughs out loud when they say it. In fact, they probably don't even give a shit about what you just wrote. More accurately, the acronym "lol" should be redefined as "Lack of laughter."

Depending on the chatter, its definition may vary. The list of its meanings includes, but is not limited to:
1) "I have nothing worthwhile to contribute to this conversation."
2) "I'm too lazy to read what you just wrote so I'm typing something useless in hopes that you'll think I'm still paying attention."
3) "Your statement lacks even the vaguest trace of humor but I'll pretend I'm amused."
4) "This is a pointless acronym I'm sticking in my sentence just because it's become so engraved into my mind that when chatting, I MUST use the meaningless sentence-filler 'lol.'"

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=lol

[Comte Arnau]

1) "I have nothing worthwhile to contribute to this conversation."

To the first thing, it is an opinion of yours. I can't do anything but lol at that. Other than that, I'd just say that yours is the typical thing to say by those who feel self-hatred, like those French citizens who say they speak patois, or Upper Aragonese who were told they spoke 'basto' or 'rural'. These people end up believing that there is an A language, for 'serious' things, and a B language, which is inferior.

To the second thing, Valencian being a language different from Catalan, I can only laugh. The attempt to make it a believable thing is already a thing of the past. The Valencian standard is closer to the Catalonian standard than American is to British or Argentinian to Castilian.

[Hesperión]

To the first thing, it is an opinion of yours. I can't do anything but lol at that.I did say that it was how I perceived it.


Other than that, I'd just say that yours is the typical thing to say by those who feel self-hatredHow could it be 'self-hatred' when I'm not one of them?

You should review the definition of 'self-hatred'.


like those French citizens who say they speak patois, or Upper Aragonese who were told they spoke 'basto' or 'rural'. These people end up believing that there is an A language, for 'serious' things, and a B language, which is inferior.It's not the language (Catalan) but the tone used by eastern Catalans, which hapens to be the 'standard' and 'official' for being the most commonly used.


To the second thing, Valencian being a language different from Catalan, I can only laugh. The attempt to make it a believable thing is already a thing of the past.I'm not attempting to make anyone believe it. Different? Not so much. But distinctive it certainly is.

If I choose to call it 'language', so be it. I've never (NEVER) denied it being a dialectal form...a dialectal language. What's not a dialect? Isn't eastern Catalan a group of dialects? or Western Catalan? So, what's this 'Catalan' that's neither eastern nor western, nor Valencian, yet it's the only one that can be called a language?


The Valencian standard is closer to the Catalonian standard than American is to British or Argentinian to Castilian.Standard? You mean the so-called 'standardised' (normalitzat)?

That's an artificially created set of rules that no one who's learned Valencian at home and has some respect for his/her parents and grandparents would speak.

[Peyrol]

Obviously the catalan surnames ending in ''-au' and also in ''-ol' are related with occitan, even if the occitan forms of ''-au'' is ''-aut'' or ''-aud'' and ''-jol'' or ''-jron'' instead of the catalan ''-yol''; here in Piemont we've similar forms, but ending in ''-audo'' and ''-iolo''.

And this isn't surprising if you take a look of the Gallo-Romance Arc:

http://occitanet.free.fr/imatges/romania.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a7/Sumien_supradialectal.jpg/300px-Sumien_supradialectal.jpg

[Comte Arnau]

I did say that it was how I perceived it.

And that is why I just laughed. Personal likes and dislikes can't be corrected, just laughed at.


How could it be 'self-hatred' when I'm not one of them?

Who said you are? (Although you look like your typical blavero, to be honest)

Don't imitate Lábaru and read me well. What I actually said is that that way of thinking was typical of the self-hatred expressed by peoples whose native languages have suffered from centuries of dyglossia.


It's not the language (Catalan) but the tone used by eastern Catalans, which hapens to be the 'standard' and 'official' for being the most commonly used.

Eastern Catalan sounds less 'Iberian-like' than Western Catalan. Since you seem to have a preference for Valencian, I can understand why you don't like it, although I don't share your ways of expressing it, clearly aimed at denigrating it. I personally like all dialects of Catalan. And I also like all (or most) dialects of Spanish, as well as of other Romance languages. Languages themselves are not to blame for the use some want to make of them.


I'm not attempting to make anyone believe it. Different? Not so much. But distinctive it certainly is.

All varieties of a language are distinctive. That is why they are varieties.


If I choose to call it 'language', so be it. I've never (NEVER) denied it being a dialectal form...a dialectal language. What's not a dialect? Isn't eastern Catalan a group of dialects? or Western Catalan? So, what's this 'Catalan' that's neither eastern nor western, nor Valencian, yet it's the only one that can be called a language?

Same could be said of any language. I could paraphrase you and say: "What's this 'Spanish' that's neither Latin American nor European, nor Canarian, yet it's the only one that can be called a language?" Well, this Spanish -just like this Catalan- is the international name for the whole of varieties that form it.


Standard? You mean the so-called 'standardised' (normalitzat)?

That's an artificially created set of rules that no one who's learned Valencian at home and has some respect for his/her parents and grandparents would speak.

All standards from all languages are artificial and nobody speaks them, you're not saying anything new. They are indeed abstract sets of rules used to codify a language in order to have a reference for communication, regardless of the way people actually use it. Catalan is, just like many other languages in the world, a pluricentric language, with two (para)standards (centered on Barcelona and Valencia) and different substandards (Majorcan, Alguerese, etc). That's the way it is, and that does not hinder people from, say, Tortosa, to speak in their clearly distinctive variety on a daily basis.

[Peyrol]

7:50 minutes of spoken occitan.

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[Xochi]

It sounds somewhat like Italian - French - Catalan.

[Guapo]

like pig latin