Who are the purest Aryans?

[aherne]

Kurgan Types from Fatyanovo (~3000 BC, when Aryans were still one people):
http://www.velesova-sloboda.org/jpg/chekov-fatyanovo-01.jpg
http://www.velesova-sloboda.org/jpg/chekov-fatyanovo-03.jpg
http://www.velesova-sloboda.org/jpg/chekov-fatyanovo-02.jpg

[aherne]

Romanian of pure Kurgan Nordic type (long faced, convex nose variety)

[aherne]

Another Romanian of pure Kurgan type (short faced, straight nose variety)

[Austrvegr]

Fatyanovo people are Corded Ware/Battle Axes, not Kurgans. Here are 2 brand new reconstructions of Kurgan (Yamnaya) people from South Ural (2nd half of the 3rd millenium BC).

http://img.nr2.ru/pict/arts1/r15/dop1/11/01/2.jpg

http://img.nr2.ru/pict/arts1/r15/dop1/11/01/1.jpg

http://img.nr2.ru/pict/arts1/31/59/315979.jpg

[aherne]

Fatyanovo people are Corded Ware/Battle Axes, not Kurgans. Here are 2 brand new reconstructions of Kurgan (Yamnaya) people from South Ural (2nd half of the 3rd millenium BC).

http://img.nr2.ru/pict/arts1/r15/dop1/11/01/2.jpg

http://img.nr2.ru/pict/arts1/r15/dop1/11/01/1.jpg

http://img.nr2.ru/pict/arts1/31/59/315979.jpg

Same ethnic group (Aryan), same culture (including kurgan burial), same racial type (proto-Nordic). Thanks for your addition!

[Agrippa]

Kurgan Types from Fatyanovo (~3000 BC, when Aryans were still one people):
http://www.velesova-sloboda.org/jpg/chekov-fatyanovo-01.jpg
http://www.velesova-sloboda.org/jpg/chekov-fatyanovo-03.jpg
http://www.velesova-sloboda.org/jpg/chekov-fatyanovo-02.jpg

Those are not the Kurgan Types, at least if narrowing it down, like Austrvegr said it, but Corded people and their relatives.

They were more Nordoid/Nordo-Mediterranid than the classic early Kurgan-/Ochre grave/Yamnaya variants from the Ukraine and Southern Russia on average.

So while there are similarities, if talking about a "Kurgan type" this is not the same as "Corded type", because the first being more Cromagnid influenced relatively, while the latter more Nordo-Mediterranid.

The basic elements are similar and many overlap, but still, Kurgan type should be rather reserved, in my opinion, for the more progressive-refined Cromagnoids with Nordo-Mediterranid tendencies we find primarily in the steppe-Indo-Europeans and early Kurgan cultures.

[Osweo]

Kurgan type should be rather reserved, in my opinion, for the more progressive-refined Cromagnoids with Nordo-Mediterranid tendencies we find primarily in the steppe-Indo-Europeans and early Kurgan cultures.

i.e. The linguistic ancestors of the Scythians, Persians, Sogdians, Tajiks, Hindus and Tokharians. I would like to ask how much of this type survived in the classical period of these (before they were mostly absorbed by the natives), and what changes they went through in this time and along their respective migrations?

[Agrippa]

i.e. The linguistic ancestors of the Scythians, Persians, Sogdians, Tajiks, Hindus and Tokharians. I would like to ask how much of this type survived in the classical period of these (before they were mostly absorbed by the natives), and what changes they went through in this time and along their respective migrations?

Well, from what I know about them, they were not all the same, but the successive waves and different groups showed also differences.

The earlist groups of unknown ethnicity were in some areas very Cromagnid, in others rather Nordo-Mediterranid already, many in between.

From the Scythians we know that many were most typical for the transitional variants, with the Nordo-Mediterranid element becoming more dominant over time.

The early Sarmatians now show huge differences, far from being homogenous, they have also Taurid and Cromagno-Alpinoid/Borreby-like, possibly slight Mongoloid influences in some tribes, were pred. Nordo-Mediterranoid again like the Alans.

So talking about those Steppe-Indo-Europeans, they themselves were never a single block it seems, especially in later times, when they became mixed with other people and/or differentiated regionally, after social strata and ethnic groups, but they still were mostly of the same types as practically all early Indo-Europeans: Nordoid, Cromagnid, Mediterranid, in later times with other influences (especially Dinaroid/Dinaro-Cromagno-Alpinoid, occasionally Mongoloid) in specific groups like some Sarmatians tribes etc.

[MagnaLaurentia]

Interesting, now can we have some pictures of the kurgan type?

[Birka]

Interesting, now can we have some pictures of the kurgan type?

http://media.gunaxin.com/a-tribute-to-the-kurgan-from-highlander-4/66246

[MagnaLaurentia]

http://media.gunaxin.com/a-tribute-to-the-kurgan-from-highlander-4/66246

Haha.. I like this movie! Il ne peut en rester qu'un!

[aherne]

Those are not the Kurgan Types, at least if narrowing it down, like Austrvegr said it, but Corded people and their relatives.

They were more Nordoid/Nordo-Mediterranid than the classic early Kurgan-/Ochre grave/Yamnaya variants from the Ukraine and Southern Russia on average.

So while there are similarities, if talking about a "Kurgan type" this is not the same as "Corded type", because the first being more Cromagnid influenced relatively, while the latter more Nordo-Mediterranid.

The basic elements are similar and many overlap, but still, Kurgan type should be rather reserved, in my opinion, for the more progressive-refined Cromagnoids with Nordo-Mediterranid tendencies we find primarily in the steppe-Indo-Europeans and early Kurgan cultures.

Since all "Indo-Europeans" used kurgan burial up to 11th century AD, when Germanics were finally Christianized, this term is imprecise. Kurgan Types simply means Aryan types. I've used it to denote EARLY Aryan types, which show Cro-Magnid tendencies and the two Romanian actors I've exemplified are perfect examples of Early Aryans. The Aryans who invaded the North European plains (aka the Corded Ware people) underwent a slow process of gracilization, whereas those that stayed in the steppes (aka the Yamnaya people) retained the old type. Still, in the time span of Corded Ware culture, differences were pretty much minor and Early types were still very common (take for example figure #1). Today, the only people that show Early Aryan types are Russians, Romanians and North Caucasians, all due to Scythian influence.

[aherne]

i.e. The linguistic ancestors of the Scythians, Persians, Sogdians, Tajiks, Hindus and Tokharians. I would like to ask how much of this type survived in the classical period of these (before they were mostly absorbed by the natives), and what changes they went through in this time and along their respective migrations?

Not just... Old type was dominant among linguistic ancestors of: Indo-Iranians, Nessians, Greeks, Phrygians and Armenians. Because Balkan peninsula, Anatolia, Iranian plateau and India were densely inhabited, it failed to leave much of a mark, whereas among the Saka (Steppe Iranians: Cimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians) it survived unaltered into classical times. The Saka themselves died out following Turkic migrations, leaving in Ossetians only a linguistic legacy.

[Matritensis]

Kurgan Types simply means Aryan types

I'm starting to get a bit tired of this Aryan thing already.Please define what Aryan means in anthropological terms,because you sound like you were born in the 1920's but you are probably not allowed to vote yet.Am I right?

[aherne]

I'm starting to get a bit tired of this Aryan thing already.Please define what Aryan means in anthropological terms,because you sound like you were born in the 1920's but you are probably not allowed to vote yet.Am I right?

I am using the right term:
- Aryan, since that was the name "Indo-Europeans" used for themselves
- Aryan, since this is "Indo-Europeans" racial type

[Peerkons]

- Aryan, since this is "Indo-Europeans" racial type

you make no sense
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2490/4118002405_39e27afb1e.jpg

[Lithium]

I have talked to many Bulgarians who support the theory of our Aryan origin, but no one actually was able to describe their racial type. So I will be glad if someone make clear my question, here or in another special thread. Pictures will be the most helpful IMO

[aherne]

you make no sense
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2490/4118002405_39e27afb1e.jpg

Perhaps you are too stupid to get it. Perhaps this will reach your mind:
Nordic race = "proto-Indo-European"
"proto-Indo-European" = Aryan
=>
Nordic = Aryan

Yes... six million innocent Jews were slaughtered by people who believed "proto-Indo-Europeans" called themselves Aryan and that they were originally "Nordic":D Never again!!!:mad:

[aherne]

I have talked to many Bulgarians who support the theory of our Aryan origin, but no one actually was able to describe their racial type. So I will be glad if someone make clear my question, here or in another special thread. Pictures will be the most helpful IMO

I don't think you have a very clear image of what racial Aryans are. I've already provided pictures of how they looked like in this very thread. Bulgarians, like all Balkans people, do have an Aryan component, but it is very insignificant compared to types inherited from Neolithic (Mediterannean) and Upper Paleolithic (Cro-Magnid). It was largely brought by Slavs during the Dark Ages and shows gracilization (see my post for Corded Ware people).

[Agrippa]

http://media.gunaxin.com/a-tribute-to-the-kurgan-from-highlander-4/66246

Actually he was well chosen, because he would have really fit into the Kurgan standard-type variation!

It is the actor Clancy Brown:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erjMZaAc3ZE&feature=related

Typical skull:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6806&stc=1&d=1295180232

Scythians:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6807&stc=1&d=1295180372

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6808&stc=1&d=1295180373

Note the very prominent nose - often even more prominent and narrower than in some Corded Ware samples actually, that is really striking for that time in particular and points to a more Southern-warmer orientation, relations to other Aurignacoid forms. Yet they often very robust and had frequently broader face, like today's "Anglo-Saxon" variants or more robust Iranids f.e.

[Heretik]

Perhaps you are too stupid to get it. Perhaps this will reach your mind:
Nordic race = "proto-Indo-European"
"proto-Indo-European" = Aryan
=>
Nordic = Aryan

Yes... six million innocent Jews were slaughtered by people who believed "proto-Indo-Europeans" called themselves Aryan and that they were originally "Nordic":D Never again!!!:mad:

:confused:

No, seriously, what the fuck are you talking about?

[aherne]

Actually he was well chosen, because he would have really fit into the Kurgan standard-type variation!

It is the actor Clancy Brown:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erjMZaAc3ZE&feature=related

Typical skull:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6806&stc=1&d=1295180232

Scythians:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6807&stc=1&d=1295180372

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6808&stc=1&d=1295180373

Note the very prominent nose - often even more prominent and narrower than in some Corded Ware samples actually, that is really striking for that time in particular and points to a more Southern-warmer orientation, relations to other Aurignacoid forms. Yet they often very robust and had frequently broader face, like today's "Anglo-Saxon" variants or more robust Iranids f.e.

Maybe the samples are skewed, maybe the reconstructions aren't perfect, but the last two figures certainly do not look Scythian at all. Only this one does:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6807&stc=1&d=129518037

I've noticed that modern people with similar features (including the two Romanians I've exemplified) have light-brown hair, rose skin and blue eyes, which coincides with Roman accounts of how Scythians looked like.

Here is how true Scythians looked like:
http://www.fravahr.org/IMG/jpg/Scythian_Art.jpg
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQaxXln03-rFA1YH8g0OW9K1UKXQuQHP4zNvqfFdk5gJPmcQzdH
http://www.allempires.com/Forum/uploads/31288/Mumiya-2.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m77/nikepilas/Scythian_mummy_02.jpg

[aherne]

Tocharians (an Aryan-derived people which also included foreign elements, ommitted in this gallery of early Aryans):
http://archure.net/p/351px-SteinMummy.jpg
http://www.white-history.com/hwr6a_files/goldilocks1.jpg
http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/mummy07.jpg
http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/mummy02.jpg

[Osweo]

the last two figures certainly do not look Scythian at all.
You were there? Was there NO variation among them? Were they all clones from some Hyperborean spaceship?! Heh, I bet I don't look 'English' to you. But I AM!

Here is how true Scythians looked like:
http://www.fravahr.org/IMG/jpg/Scythian_Art.jpg
[and some kings etc....]
A modern comparison, would be taking a magazine of fashion models and a few photos of the Royal Family, to say how 'the English' look... ;)

[aherne]

You were there? Was there NO variation among them? Were they all clones from some Hyperborean spaceship?! Heh, I bet I don't look 'English' to you. But I AM!

A modern comparison, would be taking a magazine of fashion models and a few photos of the Royal Family, to say how 'the English' look... ;)

This is a good counterargument, but my point remains. Even though the two reconstructed figures do not look Scythian, they can be Scythian, just that they are un-characteristic.Besides, racial anthropology as well as genetics prove that Scythians had MUCH LESS variation than English people, since they only had one ethnic origin(Aryan) with very minor outside influences. Englishmen are incomparably more complex in origins...

[Matritensis]

Englishmen are incomparably more complex in origins

You say that because we know how England and the English were formed,whereas we have much less information about obscure or prehistoric peoples.90% of history is prehistory,about which we know really next to nothing.I suspect that there are genetic connections in Europe and central Asia that we cannot even imagine.Maybe with the improvement of genetics we'll have some day a clearer picture.

[Agrippa]

Maybe the samples are skewed, maybe the reconstructions aren't perfect, but the last two figures certainly do not look Scythian at all. Only this one does:

They both deviate but rather in a more disharmonious way (first has a reduced midface, second a larger nose), but otherwise they are almost completely the same as the individual you accepted.

I mean the variation between those three is really a minor one compared to every modern European population I know of. No modern European population is more homogenous than these 3 individuals. The two you don't like are just not that ideal - I got this images from Eastern European posters, I can't prove all of them, but I know some from German works as well and from my perspective I simply can't say why they should be that untypical, they are just less harmonious.

But probably some Eastern European members can help to translate the comments of these - and if possible other images I could post, would interest me too actually, because I can't translate it.

Also consider that the Scythians were a people which had tremendous span of time and space - I mean from Central Europe to Mongolia, over thousand years Irano-Scythians can be recorded - minimum!

So it is just obvious they must have had a strong variation and if considering that, they are actually very homogenous most of the time, if there are no obvious admixtures or the stronger deviation in the mentioned Sarmatian groups...

[aherne]

They both deviate but rather in a more disharmonious way (first has a reduced midface, second a larger nose), but otherwise they are almost completely the same as the individual you accepted..

Actually, the only thing they have in common is that they are White. The first looks East Baltid, whereas the second looks like a Middle Easterner. Here is what Coon has to say about Scythians.

About how Scythians portrayed themselves in art:

They show a well-defined type of heavily bearded, long-haired men with prominent, often convex, noses. The browridges are moderately heavy, the eyes deep set. These faces are strikingly reminiscent of types common among northwest Europeans today, in strong contrast to those shown in the art of the Sumerians, Babylonians, and Hittites, which are definitely Near Eastern. The face, therefore, is definitely Nordic, while the body build looks often thick-set and very muscular, but this may be due to the clothing, which includes baggy trousers and jackets with full sleeves. The pointed caps which they wear and the long hair make it impossible to form a useful opinion of their head form, but this is unnecessary, since we may soon discover it from reference to the cranial material. Persian representations of Saka show exactly the same type, depicted by the followers of an entirely different school of art, and hence this type cannot have been an unfounded convention.
So the default type was "Nordic", a term used by Coon to describe Aryan race and its offspring.

About types present among Scythians:

There is, in the anthropometric literature, sufficient data to permit the reconstruction of the Scytho-Sarmatian cranial type or types. The most extensive group, and that which may be used as a basic series, is Donici's collection of seventy-seven Scythian crania from kurgans of Bessarabia, which was one of the favored Scythian pasture lands during the height of their domination.57 (See Appendix I, cot 37.) The fifty-seven male crania of this series are not homogeneous, but fall into two types, a long-headed and a round-headed, with the former greatly in the majority.

One of the peculiarities of the Scythian skulls is a low mesene upper facial index, lower than that of the Kelts or of the Minussinsk people. Donici has shown, however, that this low upper facial index is mostly associated with the brachycephalic element in the group, and the same is true of many of the chamaeconch and mesorrhine skulls. When the brachycephalic element is eliminated, therefore, one finds these skulls to be narrower faced, and narrower nosed, and to fit more nearly into a central European Nordic category. Other series of Scythian crania from southern Russia and from the Caucasus show the same general characteristics as that of Donici's type series, but are in most cases purely dolichocephalic, which leads one to suppose that the brachycephalic element in the Rumanian skulls may have been at least partly of local origin.58
Mind you the ethnocultural border between Aryans and Danubians before the migrations (around 3500 BC) was the Dnepr river, so it is perfectly feasible for Scythians west of this ancient border to be partly of indigenous type (just as Slavs or Germanics of same age were also showing accretion of older elements).

About what their type was:

We have seen that the Scythians and Sarmatians, although they undoubtedly included in their ranks many individuals of different political affiliations, formed nevertheless a quite constant principal racial type, which was essentially Iranian and a form of Nordic. In its characteristic low vault, as in other dimensions, it specifically resembled the earlier eastern European and central Asiatic Nordic form. It was essentially a member of the racial cluster associated with the spread of Satem Indo-European speech in both eastern Europe and Asia.
Which vindicates my oppinion that "Nordic" is just a Semitically-Correct identifier for people inheriting ancestral "Indo-European" racial type.

[Agrippa]

Actually, the only thing they have in common is that they are White.

Compare them with racial types outside of the Cromagnid influenced Nordid-Mediterranid spectrum and you see the difference.


The first looks East Baltid

What is Eastbaltid about her? She has a very long head and prominent-slightly convex nose! She might have a stronger Cromagnoid input, but is actually rather Nordoid/Nordid-Mediterranid.


whereas the second looks like a Middle Easterner. Here is what Coon has to say about Scythians.

That guy looks Iraniomorph, but so do many Eastnordids to this day and he has a long head, strong profile and despite the enlarged nose is rather Nordid-Mediterranid/Irano-Nordoid as well. Don't let the haircut and depiction confuse you - even the nasal shape is not untypical, only enlarged.

Actually they both have a longer head, especially postauricular, than the variant which you called typical.
You said:

Only this one does:

Yet he is the most Dinaroid individual of those three! Looking at the cranium in particular, the other two are more Nordoid/Nordid-Mediterranid/Irano-Nordoid metrically-morphologically.

[Bloodeagle]

Maybe the samples are skewed, maybe the reconstructions aren't perfect, but the last two figures certainly do not look Scythian at all. Only this one does:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6807&stc=1&d=129518037

I've noticed that modern people with similar features (including the two Romanians I've exemplified) have light-brown hair, rose skin and blue eyes, which coincides with Roman accounts of how Scythians looked like.

Here is how true Scythians looked like:
http://www.fravahr.org/IMG/jpg/Scythian_Art.jpg
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQaxXln03-rFA1YH8g0OW9K1UKXQuQHP4zNvqfFdk5gJPmcQzdH
http://www.allempires.com/Forum/uploads/31288/Mumiya-2.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m77/nikepilas/Scythian_mummy_02.jpg

What about this chap?
http://www.cryptomundo.com/wp-content/uploads/saltmanx-large.jpg

[Sarmata]

Tocharians (an Aryan-derived people which also included foreign elements, ommitted in this gallery of early Aryans):
http://archure.net/p/351px-SteinMummy.jpg
http://www.white-history.com/hwr6a_files/goldilocks1.jpg
http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/mummy07.jpg
http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/mummy02.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m77/nikepilas/Scythian_mummy_02.jpg
[/QUOTE]

It seems that they have very strong jaws... possibly CM influence?

[aherne]

What about this chap?
http://www.cryptomundo.com/wp-content/uploads/saltmanx-large.jpg

Zombie...

[aherne]

It seems that they have very strong jaws... possibly CM influence?

Absolutely not, in these particular cases. These people have stereotypical Aryan features, partly gracilized, enough for these individuals to pass unnoticed among all European nations, minus Balkans and Iberia. They could EASILY pass as Italian, let alone English or Russian.

[Osweo]

But probably some Eastern European members can help to translate the comments of these - and if possible other images I could post, would interest me too actually, because I can't translate it.
Easy peasy, Agrippa! Why didn't you ask before! I'm the perfect Eastern European to do that for you (never mind that there aren't many her more western than me in origins... ;) )

Scythians:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6807&stc=1&d=1295180372
Fig. 23. Pictorial reconstruction from the skull of a man from the Nikolaevka-Kazatskoye tomb.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6808&stc=1&d=1295180373
Fig. 24. Pictorial reconstruction from the skull of a woman from the Nikolaevka-Kazatskoye tomb.
Fig. 25. Pictorial reconstruction from the skull of a man from the Nikolaevka-Kazatskoye tomb.

All from the same burial.

I put the name of the site in Google;
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B 5%D0%B6%D0%BA%D0%B0-%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B5+% D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0 %BA&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLG&redir_esc=&ei=_XE3TdjLL9O7hAeg2qmBAw#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&rls=com.microsoft:en-us%3AIE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7GGLG&source=hp&q=%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B5%D0%B2 %D0%BA%D0%B0-%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B5+% D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0 %BA&aq=&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&fp=54dddba18bb93195

pdf;
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=9&ved=0CFwQFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsor.volsu.ru%2Flibrary%2Fdocs%2F0 0001169.pdf&ei=wXI3TcP9LoSl8QO0wMyLDA&usg=AFQjCNF_x6zrRMZarpuZY21vvnsyceCrXA
Антропологические особенности сарматов локальной группы могильников Есауловского Аксая (V в. до н.э. – 1-ая половина II в. н.э.)1 М.А.Балабанова
Anthropological Peculiarities of the Sarmatians of the Yesaulovsky Aksay regional group (5th Century BC to first half of 2nd Century AD)
By M. A. Balabanova.

No pictures, but LOTS of measurements. Extracts;
Раннесарматская группа, особенно мужское население, демонстрирует высокие (благополучные) демографические показатели. Среднесарматская группа, видимо, испытывала специфический стресс в молодом возрасте, поэтому у них ниже средний возраст смертности и пик смертности выпадает на молодой возраст. Возможно такая ситуация связана с участием как мужчин, так и женщин в боевых столкновениях, о чем свидетельствует высокий уровень травматизма.
The Early-Sarmatian group, especially the male population, displays high (beneficial) demographic indicators.
The Middle-Sarmatian group clearly experienced specific stress in youth, and so their average age of death and peak of mortality are at a young age. It is possible that such a situation is linked with the participation of both men and women in armed clashes, as is witnessed by a high level of trauma.


Мужской краниотип ранней группы (V-III вв. до н.э.) характеризуется среднедлинной и широкой мозговой коробкой по форме брахикранной; с длинным и широким основанием и широкой затылочной костью; лобная кость средней ширины, слегка наклонная и резко профилированная по линии фронтотемпоральных точек.
The male skull type of the early group (C5-C3rd BC) is characterised by a wide braincase of middle length of brachicephalic form, and a wide occipital bone; the forehead is of average width, slightly sloping and sharply profiling by the line of the frontotemporal points.... :p :shrug: :D


Damn... Why did I translate the title myself? THere's an English summary at the end;
Summary Anthropological features of the Sarmatians of local group of burial grounds from Esaulovskiy Aksay (V century B.C. - 1-st half of the II century A.D.) Balabanova M.A.

On the anthropological material numbering 99 skeletons from burials of the chronological range stacked in V century B.C. - first half of the II century A.D., the features of demographic structure and morphological shape of the Sauromato-Sarmatian population which has left burial grounds of Esaulovskiy Aksay are shown. The basic tendency of epoch-making variability of demographic parameters and craniological features allow to assume the continuity of the population but also new anthropological components which resulted in cultural changes and led to increase of intragroup polymorphism of the researched paleopopulation.



*************

Conclusion ;
1. Mound burial was selective in later stages. Less women and children were interred (and presumably were subject to other rites elsewhere

2. A worsening of living conditions is observed with time.

3. The men are part of the wider circle of cultures of the Sarmatian world, eg. the Southern Urals and Beyond the Volga.

4. THe anthropological peculiarities show preservation of the early Sarmatian genofund, and insignificant absorption of outsiders.

5. Morphologically, they resemble the Don-Volga type.

6. By internal group structure, the population of the mid-Sarmatian phase show a mix of long-headed europoids, especially among the men, which can be linked with migrants. This type came to predominate in later phases.

[Agrippa]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6807&stc=1&d=1295180372

Actually if looking at that individual's cranium, like I said before, the Dinaroid component is visible and most authors said that this was more common in Sarmatians, so it would fit perfectly.

Here some more for a translation :thumbs up

[aherne]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6807&stc=1&d=1295180372

Actually if looking at that individual's cranium, like I said before, the Dinaroid component is visible and most authors said that this was more common in Sarmatians, so it would fit perfectly.

Here some more for a translation :thumbs up

You are right. The skull does have a dinaric slope. Whether or not it is a product of admixture or just a minor variation, it remains to be seen. Both Scythians and Sarmatians formed EAST of Urals (in Andronovo region) and included admixture with Samoyeds, Yeniseians and Irano-Afghans. Coon says Scythian mixed with Mongoloid produces a Dinaric condition. A good example is Marat Safin (Aryan element predominant):
http://www.enjoyfrance.com/images/stories/france/sport/Marat-Safin-tennis-star.jpg

Here are two Chechens posted before both exhibiting Kurgan typologies (a long face and a short face variety):

[Agrippa]

You are right. The skull does have a dinaric slope. Whether or not it is a product of admixture or just a minor variation, it remains to be seen.

There were many Dinaroid variants among certain Sarmatian groups which showed no real Mongoloid influence, if at all rather Pamiro-Armenoid ones, which would be the most exotic possible description.

That individual is clearly rather Dinaroid, because I can compare him directly to a Bell Beaker and a Corded Ware individual, he is closer to the Bell Beaker already or at best intermediate.

This individual in particular is strongly Europid, nothing is in any way even remotely reminiscent of a Mongoloid admixture on the skull, at least not from those traits which we can see in this picture.

[aherne]

There were many Dinaroid variants among certain Sarmatian groups which showed no real Mongoloid influence, if at all rather Pamiro-Armenoid ones, which would be the most exotic possible description.

That individual is clearly rather Dinaroid, because I can compare him directly to a Bell Beaker and a Corded Ware individual, he is closer to the Bell Beaker already or at best intermediate.

This individual in particular is strongly Europid, nothing is in any way even remotely reminiscent of a Mongoloid admixture on the skull, at least not from those traits which we can see in this picture.

According to Coon and other racial anthropologists, although a short-faced element is noted (either native, or product of admixture), the vast majority of Saka were "Nordid" (in two varieties, exemplified beautifully by the Romanian actors I've started this thread with and by the chechens in the last thread). I've already given you examples of how average Scythians looked like. The individual we are discussing is average Scythian. His face CANNOT BE anything else than 100% Aryan (at least from profile, since a front picture is sadly missing). In his case, I think, slight Dinaroid tendencies are just internal variation (since all of his other features are proto-Nordid). It is not measurements that prove one's ethnicity, but one's overall outlook: the big straight nose (though it could have been just as well convex), the deep-set eyes, the very angular features, everything indicates Aryan ancestry, while nothing indicates admixture. The other two reconstructions as well as the ones you exemplified for Sarmatians, are totally un-Nordid, therefore they cannot be characteristic for either Scythians or Sarmatians. Why un-characteristic skulls were featured in reconstructions is related to a political reason: in Soviet Union, the "Indo-Europeans" were a forbidden subject and the mere suggestion of them being "Nordic" would have made one an automatic "Hitlerist", which equalled gulag.

[Osweo]

Here some more for a translation :thumbs up

Plate XXII
Sculptural reconstruction on a man's skull from the Gumarovsky Kurgan (= 'Mound'), author - T. S. Baluyeva.
(If you need to know where these are, put the Russian into a search engine if you can't find anything in Latin letters - Гумаровский Курган)

Plate XXIII
Sculptural reconstruction of a woman's skull from the burial Starie Kiishki (Старые Киишки), author - G. V. Lebedinskaya

A person from the Bronze Age. Kazakhstan and Southern Siberia. Andronovo Culture (AndronovSKAYA in Russian). Reconstruction by M. M. Gerasimov (a very well known expert, who was allowed to reconstruct faces from the bones of important historical figures, like Ivan IV, Timurlane and so on).

Fig. 197. Reconstruction from a male skull (8503). Type A. (Pretty useless without context, I'm afraid)

NEXT! :p

I recommend you at least learn a LITTLE Russian, Agrippa, or just the script! :D These are simple labels, and the scientific terms are usually pan-European.

череп cherep skull

Реконструкция rekonstruktsiya

мужчина muzhchina man

женщина zhenschina woman :p

[Saruman]

Coon says Scythian mixed with Mongoloid produces a Dinaric condition. A good example is Marat Safin (Aryan element predominant):

Where does he say that? I thought his theory was a mix of 2/3 Mediterranid and 1/3 Alpinoid? Still he's no "god", his theory was very likely false as he ignored selection for ex., and he was wrong in some other things too.
You know of Bell Beaker culture, how do you explain that their core type in central Europe had Dinaroid as the strongest element?
I'm sure you don't even know to distinguish between Mongoloid subtypes. So a Nordsinid type is a mix of Schythian and Mongoloid too? Typical of many "pseudo knowledge seekers", they know only a couple of Euro types, no knowledge about Mongoloid, Negroid, their formation and all types are a mix of these basic few.

[Agrippa]

Here some more:

[Osweo]

Here some more:
:D

I hope you're editing the image in Paint, pasting my translations onto them! If you then start posting them around, it would help everyone. :p


Fig. 5. Scupt. recon. male, Poltavkino Culture (Krasnosamarsky I, mound 1, burial 4, Samara Region (mid Volga)). by T. S. Surnina

Fig 6. Scul. Rec. male, Srubnaya (or is it Srubna?) Culture (Luzanovsky burial, Samara Region). By L. T. Yablonsky.


Plate III, Sculp. Rec. Male, from tomb Vasilyevka III, by G. V. Lebedinskaya.

[aherne]

Where does he say that? I thought his theory was a mix of 2/3 Mediterranid and 1/3 Alpinoid? Still he's no "god", his theory was very likely false as he ignored selection for ex., and he was wrong in some other things too.
I found this:

The pseudo-Armenoid skulls of the Medieval Avar and Turkish cemeteries of eastern Europe and Hungary are thus explained as a consequence of the mixture of the Buryat-Mongol mongoloid variety with white men presumably to a large extent Nordic, on the central Asiatic grasslands. This Kirghiz Turkish hybrid form is, furthermore, a phenomenon parallel to the formation of Norics in central Europe, and of Dinarics and Armenoids themselves elsewhere.
But I'll look for the exact quote. Of course Coon is no god. His theory may be incorrect, but the individual I've posted looks like confirming his theory (most Tatar "Nordics" have Dinaric tendencies and since none of the components of tatars were Dinaric: Mongoloids, Aryans, Uralics, it must be some sort of composite solution). Of course his theory may be proven to be incorrect. Scythians, by large, had little to no Dinaric component...


You know of Bell Beaker culture, how do you explain that their core type in central Europe had Dinaroid as the strongest element?
What does this have to do with "The Aryans: Kurgan Types"?


I'm sure you don't even know to distinguish between Mongoloid subtypes. So a Nordsinid type is a mix of Schythian and Mongoloid too?
Strawman...



Typical of many "pseudo knowledge seekers", they know only a couple of Euro types, no knowledge about Mongoloid, Negroid, their formation and all types are a mix of these basic few.
Strawman...

[aherne]

Here some more:
Once again, biased samples or biased reconstructions. If Scythians would have looked like that, anthropologists would not have classified them as "long headed" or "nordic". None of these people is "Nordic" to any degree, except figure #6, with such a bad reconstruction that I initially thought he's female. I wonder how many of these reconstructions used state of the art forensics science and how much is merely a product of imagination...

[Agrippa]

:D

I hope you're editing the image in Paint, pasting my translations onto them! If you then start posting them around, it would help everyone. :p


Started to work on that, some have now your translation completely, others name was changed to point to the most important information, the site from which the original skull came from.

Thanks again, great job! :thumbs up


and since none of the components of tatars were Dinaric:

That is not for sure, looking at the ancient Sarmatians.


Once again, biased samples or biased reconstructions. If Scythians would have looked like that, anthropologists would not have classified them as "long headed" or "nordic". None of these people is "Nordic" to any degree, except figure #6, with such a bad reconstruction that I initially thought he's female. I wonder how many of these reconstructions used state of the art forensics science and how much is merely a product of imagination...

Actually they are rather long-headed, but the last three are no Scythians in the narrower sense, I just posted them for Osweo's translation you know.

[Saruman]

I found this:

You took this out of context. I think Coon made a parallel between, in his view, similar processes of on one side: 1) formation of Dinaroids in Europe caused by a mix of tall Mediterranids and Alpinoids and 2) formation of Turkics in central asia caused by a mixture of Nordoids and Tungid mongoloids. Both tall Mediterranids and Nordoids are long skulled tall and rangy while both Alpines and Tungids are short, stocky and brachycephalic. In the same text he distinguished between pseudo Armenoid and Dinarid look from Armenoid or Dinaroid proper.

With the Hunnish and Avar chiefs were many followers of the old central Asiatic Nordic race, and mixed retainers of a pseudo-Armenoid or Dinaric cranial form,


This pseudo-Armenoid or Armenoid-looking nose, typical of the Kirghiz if by no means found among all of them, differs from the true Dinaric or Armenoid organ in the fact that its root is usually low(obviously due to real Mongoloid admix), while its bridge height is frequently great only by comparison. It is obviously a hybrid nose, just as the dimensions of the Kirghiz face suggest a hybrid origin.


The pseudo-Armenoid skulls of the Medieval Avar and Turkish cemeteries of eastern Europe and Hungary are thus explained as a consequence of the mixture of the Buryat-Mongol mongoloid variety with white men presumably to a large extent Nordic, on the central Asiatic grasslands.
Again he's trying to explain pseudo Armenoid look in East European areas where Avars penetrated.


But I'll look for the exact quote.
Do that because Coon in the same book claimed Mediterrano-Alpinoid mixture as origin of Dinaroids, it would make little sense for him to contradict himself in the same book. I showed you he referred to pseudo-Armenoid/Dinaroid look of such Nordo-Tungid mixtures. And such people in areas such as Kyrgistan show clear mongoloid tendencies, Taurids don't.



What does this have to do with "The Aryans: Kurgan Types"?
Because there is no (genetic and other) proof of massive mongoloid incursions into central Europe 5000+ years ago to explain the formation of the core type present among Bell Beakers.



Strawman...
Perhaps but you haven't answered my question. Classify this man then:
http://img.metro.co.uk/i/pix/2008/08/xiangM0508_450x300.jpg
http://www.chinasmack.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/china-liu-xiang-cuba-dayron-robles.jpg



Strawman...

See these? Hmm they look more Dinaroid than Safin.. Can you explain their appearance?
http://enlite.org/podaci/slike/indijanci_dinarskih_obelezja.jpg

[Agrippa]

Perhaps but you haven't answered my question. Classify this man then

Rather Northsinid.


See these? Hmm they look more Dinaroid than Safin.. Can you explain their appearance?

Many Indianids have larger and convex noses, that is part of the Indianid racial spectrum.

[Saruman]

Rather Northsinid.



Many Indianids have larger and convex noses, that is part of the Indianid racial spectrum.

I know though that was directed to aherne, those Silvids per some of his views should be a mix of Schythians and Mongoloids too, just the question remains, how did Schythians got there? :)
And yes I've seen people claim that Nordsinids are mostly Atlanto-Mediterranids (+Mongoloid admix) like that Serbian author, I guess this Nordsinid could be 100% mongoloid.

[Agrippa]

:D

I hope you're editing the image in Paint, pasting my translations onto them! If you then start posting them around, it would help everyone. :p


Fig. 5. Scupt. recon. male, Poltavkino Culture (Krasnosamarsky I, mound 1, burial 4, Samara Region (mid Volga)). by T. S. Surnina

Fig 6. Scul. Rec. male, Srubnaya (or is it Srubna?) Culture (Luzanovsky burial, Samara Region). By L. T. Yablonsky.


Plate III, Sculp. Rec. Male, from tomb Vasilyevka III, by G. V. Lebedinskaya.

Here some more for you Osweo, hope you can do it ;)

[Pallantides]

Is there any reconstruction of that Scythian dude from the 'Lake Baikal' area who had mtDNA haplgroup N1a1?

'A 2500 year old fossil of a Scytho-Siberian in the Altai Republic, easternmost representative of the Scythians, was found to be a member of N1a1'



http://enlite.org/podaci/slike/indijanci_dinarskih_obelezja.jpg


Does the one in the upper row on the right have some European ancestry?

He could pass as 19th century Norwegian farmer judgeing by that picture.

[Osweo]

Here some more for you Osweo, hope you can do it ;)

fig. 180. Reconstruction from a skull from burial 22, Kurgan No. 5 at the village of Berezhnovka. Excavated by I. V. Sinitsin, 1951.

fig. 181. Reconstruction from the skull of a man from burial 20, Kurgan No. 5 at the village of Berezhnovka.

fig. 186. Reconstruction from the skull of a man. (9203). :shrug:

[aherne]

Here some more for you Osweo, hope you can do it ;)

Notice how the last figure looks like a typical Roman...

[Agrippa]

Notice how the last figure looks like a typical Roman...

Yes he does, yet Dinaroid and Iranoid tendencies can be observed among many early Indo-Europeans and are still strong in the typical Eastnordid variant of the Central and Southern areas of the Eastern Slavs.


fig. 180. Reconstruction from a skull from burial 22, Kurgan No. 5 at the village of Berezhnovka. Excavated by I. V. Sinitsin, 1951.

fig. 181. Reconstruction from the skull of a man from burial 20, Kurgan No. 5 at the village of Berezhnovka.

fig. 186. Reconstruction from the skull of a man. (9203). :shrug:

That's excellent, now I can relate them to something more specific than just "Yamnaya", just search google for the site +
Encyclopedia of Prehistory: Europe, Band 4

[aherne]

Saw this couple in a Russian movie. This is pure Aryan look...

[aherne]

Mihai Nesu (romanian footballer):
http://89.47.247.29/usr/imagini/2011/06/04//366628-mihai-nesu.jpg
http://www.infobraila.ro/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Mihai-Nesu.jpg
http://media.realitatea.ro/multimedia/image/200811/w460/image_122564281445032800_1.gif

[Don Brick]

http://www.faz.net/m/%7BB1B1B07A-7670-4AB8-9066-E24986A9578A%7DPicture.jpg

Two Kurgan warriors getting it on on the battlefield? :coffee:

[d3cimat3d]

http://www.uni-mainz.de/FB/Biologie/Anthropologie/MolA/English/Research/CentralAsia.html

http://i56.tinypic.com/35nav6c.jpg

http://i54.tinypic.com/mip9bb.png


In collaboration with Prof. Wolfram Schier and Dr. Elke Kaiser (Excellence Cluster TOPOI, Freie Universität Berlin) we are studying the population structures of the Eneolithic and the Bronze Age in the steppe areas north of the Black Sea and neighbouring regions. The late Eneolithic (ca 3500-3000 BC) is strongly influenced by innovations in metallurgy, e.g. copper arsenic alloys, as well as developments and dispersal of new technologies, like the early wagons with disc wheels. The first kurgans (barrows) are constructed in this period. The Yamna culture appears in the North Pontic steppe during the transition to the Bronze Age (ca 3000-2500 BC). The Yamna culture is characterised by high mobility, and during this period a uniform burial rite in pit graves underneath kurgans is established throughout the steppe region. Their subsistence economy is based on specialised husbandry and forms of semi- / nomadism, probably supported by new means of transportation including the use of draught animals. Their extensive trade relations extend across the boundaries of the steppe and include sedentary cultures west and north of the steppe territory. It has been suggested that Yamna groups might have migrated as far as Central Europe.

[billErobreren]

Saw this couple in a Russian movie. This is pure Aryan look...

Even the chick?!!! Because I have the exact same bone structure as her even as a man I look way to much like her. I mean you name it the chin, the deep set eyes, the narrow yet pointy nose(I feel so lucky I wasn't born with snub nose), the lips, the skull shape &...man, I'm pretty, but back on topic according to you that's a pure Aryan?:confused: coz I know, at least ,I think I ain't pure:rolleyes2: btw which movie was this, was there any nudity?! I kinda wanna see the lady-me naked:wink

[Artek]

Even the chick?!!! Because I have the exact same bone structure as her even as a man I look way to much like her. I mean you name it the chin, the deep set eyes, the narrow yet pointy nose(I feel so lucky I wasn't born with snub nose), the lips, the skull shape &...man, I'm pretty, but back on topic according to you that's a pure Aryan?:confused: coz I know, at least ,I think I ain't pure:rolleyes2: btw which movie was this, was there any nudity?! I kinda wanna see the lady-me naked:wink

Aherne was mistaken by blond colour of actor's hair.

[billErobreren]

Aherne was mistaken by blond colour of actor's hair.

I was talking about the chick(the lady in the picture):), are you?:confused: cuz she doesn't look blonde at least not to me

[aherne]

Even the chick?!!!
Precisely the chick! Well, on close inspection I've realized none of them are really pure. The Romanian footballer is 100% pure (representing the "darker" strain). The girl (Aurelija Anuzhite) has a bit of baltid. Aryan is highly dominant (long narrow face, deep set eyes, pointed chin, golden hair), but a little Baltid is also present (her face is not "sharp", her nose has a bulbous tip). The guy (Aleksandr Nosik), has an almost Aryan profile, but frontal pictures prove he has strong Baltid and Pontid influence:
http://www.melofanas.lt/katalogas/images/goods//96198_Aleksandr_Nosik.jpg


Because I have the exact same bone structure as her even as a man I look way to much like her. I mean you name it the chin, the deep set eyes, the narrow yet pointy nose(I feel so lucky I wasn't born with snub nose), the lips, the skull shape &...man, I'm pretty, but back on topic according to you that's a pure Aryan?:confused: coz I know, at least ,I think I ain't pure:rolleyes2:

You write like a woman. Post a picture of you so that we determine if you really look similar to her. BTW, what's your ancestry?


btw which movie was this, was there any nudity?! I kinda wanna see the lady-me naked:wink
The movie I've taken these pictures of is Tsvety ot pobediteley, where she indeed has a couple of full nude scenes. Her body is the embodiment of Aryan perfection: tall, ecto-mesomorph, perfectly proportioned. In that respect, she's same as me, but unlike her, I have very strong non-Aryan influence in my facial features.

[Artek]

So, aherne, why are you Subnordid, not Sub-Aryan?. It's kinda hypocrisy, when you call yourself subNORDID, but everywhere else you use Aryan instead of word NORDID :).
Shit, maybe I'm too sensitive when it comes to hear or see word "Aryan" ;D

EDIT: Ecto-mesomorph body is definitly not a treat of textbook Irano-nordoids(aryans).

[Saruman]

Sure the chick to kill for!!;) And yes she's of high stock, and not looking weak at all, she seems to have just about the appropriate level of robustness. Actually as I know now who she is I'll make a thread about her!

[billErobreren]

Precisely the chick! Well, on close inspection I've realized none of them are really pure. The Romanian footballer is 100% pure (representing the "darker" strain). The girl (Aurelija Anuzhite) has a bit of baltid. Aryan is highly dominant (long narrow face, deep set eyes, pointed chin, golden hair), but a little Baltid is also present (her face is not "sharp", her nose has a bulbous tip). The guy (Aleksandr Nosik), has an almost Aryan profile, but frontal pictures prove he has strong Baltid and Pontid influence:
http://www.melofanas.lt/katalogas/images/goods//96198_Aleksandr_Nosik.jpg
Well that's good to know I guess


You write like a woman. Post a picture of you so that we determine if you really look similar to her. BTW, what's your ancestry? me a woman?:eek: aw chucks:D, at least now I know I'd be a hot one, I wanted to know if I fit the profile by having that hottie's bone structure seeing as you tend to go on about this Aryan crap so you broke me, I was curious:tongue. Oh & my ancestry is mainly Danish, Irish & Norwegian (also rumored Russian though I never believed it) which is why I found it weird that my celebrity look-a-like was female Rusky.


The movie I've taken these pictures of is Tsvety ot pobediteley, where she indeed has a couple of full nude scenes. Her body is the embodiment of Aryan perfection: tall, ecto-mesomorph, perfectly proportioned. In that respect, she's same as me, but unlike her, I have very strong non-Aryan influence in my facial features.


NICE!!! thanks I've got a feeling that I'll love this movie. thanks bro

[Saruman]

female Rusky.


Latvian. Unless she's Russian born in Latvia. Balticus might help there. http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=434871#post434871

[aherne]

So, aherne, why are you Subnordid, not Sub-Aryan?. It's kinda hypocrisy, when you call yourself subNORDID, but everywhere else you use Aryan instead of word NORDID :).
Shit, maybe I'm too sensitive when it comes to hear or see word "Aryan" ;D

Well, Nordid = Aryan. Aryan + "Alpine" mixes have a short name: subnordid. But your observation is of note, so I'll change it to Aryan + Alpine to save your sensitivity.

[aherne]

I found it weird that my celebrity look-a-like was female Rusky.

That's because you know nothing about history. Similarity between Scandinavians and Russians (although this girl is actually Latvian, but does look Russian) throuh a shared Aryan element is absolutely expected. Both speak related languages, both used to have strongly related cultures and religions (before being Christianized).

You are making me curious: post a pic of yourself so that we judge the similarity.:tongue

[billErobreren]

That's because you know nothing about history. Similarity between Scandinavians and Russians (although this girl is actually Latvian, but does look Russian) throuh a shared Aryan element is absolutely expected. Both speak related languages, both used to have strongly related cultures and religions (before being Christianized).

You are making me curious: post a pic of yourself so that we judge the similarity.:tongue

wait?..."Know nothing:shocked: about history?!!!:twitch::" & you seem to have all the answers?:confused2: I don't know whether to be pissed off or deeply insulted:mad:
I know full well of the connection between Ruskies, Balts & Scandinavians.
Let's we forget that the Kiev Rus were Swedish, OK? just cuz I'm American doesn't mean I'm a culturally illiterate jackass. :banging head

[d3cimat3d]

I don't think it's possible for the Aryans (other word for proto-Indo-Europeans?) to be as Nordic looking as Swedes or Russians. For a people who allegedly originated on the Pontic-Casian steppe, I would expect them to be darker then Russians & Swedes but lighter than Georgians & Turks. Also I think Swedes as a whole are descended from indigenous, pre-Aryan people.. Russians too, but less so than the Swedes.

[_______]

Kurgan Types from Fatyanovo (~3000 BC, when Aryans were still one people):
http://www.velesova-sloboda.org/jpg/chekov-fatyanovo-01.jpg
http://www.velesova-sloboda.org/jpg/chekov-fatyanovo-03.jpg
http://www.velesova-sloboda.org/jpg/chekov-fatyanovo-02.jpg

looks iranian :p

[Harkonnen]

WTF is this gypsy shit! :p

[HungAryan]

Simple question again.

[safinator]

People from Burkina Faso

[Mortimer]

gypsies.

[HungAryan]

gypsies.

http://static.pixter.hu/pictures_original/2411781/picture_A2vaN3.jpg

[Teyrn]

Nobody that's living today.

[Trun]

BulgAryans, even our name indicates it.

[Odoacer]

None of these are Aryans.

[Mercury]

None of these are Aryans.

A few days ago I would agree with you. But I have become aware of some evidence that Indo-Europeans who migrated into Europe did refer to themselves as Aryan. As someone pointed out, the Finnish word "orja" (if I'm spelling that right) means slave, and comes from the word 'Aryan.'

Now whether there are still pure Aryan people, I don't know. They have all mixed heavily with Pre-Aryan people.

[Sikeliot]

Of those choices, the South Asians. Aryan does not mean blonde/blue eyed, people!

[HungAryan]

Of those choices, the South Asians. Aryan does not mean blonde/blue eyed, people!

Nonsense.
The proto-Indo-Europeans came out of Eastern Europe.

UKrjN_2kuXo

1:02 to 1:54
The proto-Indo-Europeans had a "Slavic" look.

[Kanuni]

I choose Balkanoids more specifically Albanians since we are whiter than our neighboring countries.

[Lábaru]

The name of Iran (ایران) is the Modern Persian derivative from the Proto-Iranian term Aryānā,, meaning "Land of the Aryans".

Shiva Aryan, Iranian model.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_uArOSIBGe-4/S5n2_E_KrVI/AAAAAAAAA1k/5U5OaXoJtwI/s400/Shiva+Aryan.jpg

[Treffie]

None of these are Aryans.

Gypsies, Indians and Pakistanis would be closer to the original Aryans compared to the other Europeans on the poll.

[HungAryan]

I choose Balkanoids more specifically Albanians since we are whiter than our neighboring countries.

http://www.infamouskidd.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/at-first-i-was-like-matrix.jpg





Face it, the purest Aryans are the Slavs

UKrjN_2kuXo

[Mercury]

Yeah the closest thing to an Aryan would probably be a Slav or some sort of East European. East Europe is the most logical homeland for the Proto-IE people, as they splintered out in four different directions. The Out of India theory is interesting, and I wish it were true, but we would have Dravidic words and such in our vocabulary.

[Contra Mundum]

I voted for more than one, but if I had to pick just one, it would be western Slavs.

[Kanuni]

Face it, the purest Aryans are the Slavs



Albanian

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg201/scaled.php?server=201&filename=52914062jk3.jpg&res=medium

Slav

http://sharetv.org/images/30_for_30/cast/large/vlade_divac.jpg

:coffee:

[Odoacer]

A few days ago I would agree with you. But I have become aware of some evidence that Indo-Europeans who migrated into Europe did refer to themselves as Aryan. As someone pointed out, the Finnish word "orja" (if I'm spelling that right) means slave, and comes from the word 'Aryan.'

So the Finns took Aryans as slaves? :confused:

[Mercury]

So the Finns took Aryans as slaves? :confused:

If so, it would prove Aryan inferiority. ;)

[Odoacer]

Gypsies, Indians and Pakistanis would be closer to the original Aryans compared to the other Europeans on the poll.

That's true; however, as an ethnic designation, "Aryan" belongs to Iranic peoples, which none of the options in the poll are.

[Magyar the Conqueror]

HungAryans, since we are Scythians, the purest Aryan race of all. Not to mention the Sons of Attila.

[Mortimer]

Widely believed theory of Indo-Aryan invasion, often used to explain early settlements in the Indian subcontinent is a myth, a new study by Indian geneticists says.

The origin of genetic diversity found in South Asia is much older than 3,500 years when the Indo-Aryans were supposed to have migrated to India, a new study led by scientists from the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology (CCMB), Hyderabad, says. The study appeared in American Journal of Human Genetics on Friday.

The theory of Indo-Aryan migration was proposed in mid-19th century by German linguist and Sanskrit scholar Max Muller.

He had suggested that 3,500 years ago, a dramatic migration of Indo-European speakers from Central Asia played a key role in shaping contemporary South Asian populations and this was responsible for introduction of the Indo-European language family and the caste system in India.

"Our study clearly shows that there was no genetic influx 3,500 years ago," said Dr Kumarasamy Thangaraj of CCMB, who led the research team, which included scientists from the University of Tartu, Estonia, Chettinad Academy of Research and Education, Chennai and Banaras Hindu University.

"It is high time we re-write India's prehistory based on scientific evidence," said Dr Lalji Singh, former director of CCMB. "There is no genetic evidence that Indo-Aryans invaded or migrated to India or even something such as Aryans existed". Singh, vice-chancellor of BHU, is a coauthor.

Researchers analysed some six lakh bits of genetic information in the form of SNPs drawn from DNA of over 1,300 individuals from 112 populations including 30 ethnic groups in India.

The comparison of this data with genetic data of other populations showed that South Asia harbours two major ancestry components. One is spread in populations of South and West Asia, Middle East, Near East and the Caucasus. The second component is more restricted to South Asia and accounts for more than 50 per cent of the ancestry in Indian populations.

"Both the ancestry components that dominate genetic variation in South Asia demonstrate much greater diversity than those that predominate West Eurasia. This is indicative of a more ancient demographic history and a higher long-term effective population size underlying South Asian genome variation compared to that of West Eurasia," researchers said.

"The genetic component which spread beyond India is significantly higher in India than in any other part of world. This implies that this genetic component originated in India and then spread to West Asia and Caucasus," said Gyaneshwar Chaube of University of Tartu, Estonia.

If any migration from Central Asia to South Asia took place, the study says, it should have introduced apparent signals of East Asian ancestry into India. "Because this ancestry component is absent from the region, we have to conclude that if such an event indeed took place, it occurred before the East Asian ancestry component reached central Asia," it said.


Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indians-are-not-descendants-of-aryans-study/1/163645.html

[HungAryan]

Inquiring, watch this again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKrjN_2kuXo
UKrjN_2kuXo



Also these two:

uhvKp7QwSIo
B-8JAdDbNWg

[Mortimer]

That's true; however, as an ethnic designation, "Aryan" belongs to Iranic peoples, which none of the options in the poll are.

I belive the Aryans in India (Vedics) are older than in Iran (Avesta). Correct me if im wrong.

[Mortimer]

Inquiring, watch this again:


anyone can make such videos.

gdRRKYPNKRM

[HungAryan]

Anyone who believes that Gypsies are Aryan is insane.
Gypsies are one of the filthiest scum that ever walked upon the Earth.

[Mortimer]

Anyone who believes that Gypsies are Aryan is insane.
Gypsies are one of the filthiest scum that ever walked upon the Earth.

you shouldnt have put gypsies along with pakistanis and indians than.

[HungAryan]

you shouldnt have put gypsies along with pakistanis and indians than.

QS7CcTLdzLo

[Treffie]

Anyone who believes that Gypsies are Aryan is insane.
Gypsies are one of the filthiest scum that ever walked upon the Earth.

Yet they would have been considered more Aryan than Hungarians - that must really hurt :D

[Magyar the Conqueror]

you shouldnt have put gypsies along with pakistanis and indians than.

Whats the difference? All of them are wanabe Aryans.

[Mortimer]

Whats the difference? All of them are wanabe Aryans.

whats the difference between british and irish travellers?

[HungAryan]

Yet they would have been considered more Aryan than Hungarians - that must really hurt :D

If Gypsies are so Aryan, then I'm glad not to be Aryan :D

[Magyar the Conqueror]

If Gypsies are so Aryan, then I'm glad not to be Aryan :D

Sometimes I am glad Hungarians aren't considered Indo-Europeans.
So many idiots are Indo-European... :p

[Mortimer]

Sometimes I am glad Hungarians aren't considered Indo-Europeans.
So many idiots are Indo-European... :p

jealous?

[Waidewut]

Obviously the Balts are the most Aryan people, because they speak a language that is the most similar to proto Indo-European. :D

[Magyar the Conqueror]

jealous?

Jealous of you, yes of course! :thumb001: ;) :rolleyes:
I thank God every day I am not born a Gypsy, Romanian or Slotak.

[lepa]

We have only one aryan in teh forum and that is IM.

[HungAryan]

jealous?

Why would he be?

http://www.1adventure.com/archives/images/gypsy-girl.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/__zxQL15EK14/TS5B6dcYi9I/AAAAAAAAAvM/X05aibFb-eI/s1600/zs3eccehomonem.jpg
http://files.blogter.hu/user_files/162317/cigany%20k%C3%B6l%C3%B6k.jpg
http://www.dzsajbhim.hu/media/img/ashwinjangamnaploja2007_nagy.jpg



They don't look very Aryan to me :rolleyes:

[Odoacer]

I belive the Aryans in India (Vedics) are older than in Iran (Avesta). Correct me if im wrong.

In the Vedas it's primarily a religious distinction referring to those who offer sacrifices in the correct manner. It's true that this usage is older, however, the word "Aryan" carried a clear ethnic meaning amongst Iranic peoples.

[Odoacer]

Obviously the Balts are the most Aryan people, because they speak a language that is the most similar to proto Indo-European. :D

So the Finns enslaved the Balts, then ... :lol:

[RagnarLodbrok666]

I belive the Aryans in India (Vedics) are older than in Iran (Avesta). Correct me if im wrong.

I think your right because Krishna Janmashtami was born in 3,228 B.C. :thumb001: And the Andronovo culture where they settled India from was also older than he was.

[Peyrol]

People from Burkina Faso

True!!!

Only negros with natural blue/green eyes. Master race!!

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/1855/dwf1510133537rxel6.jpg

http://img1.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spire3/04488b447f978d81e647f6eac2bd6a3d1318750552_full.jp g

http://farm1.staticflickr.com/58/196283965_5e79f9eb26_z.jpg?zz=1

http://www.lipstickalley.com/gallery/data/500/tumblr_ltq8a9JUyT1qkkv4to1_500.jpg

[HungAryan]

Are the guys voting for Gypsies serious?
They are not Aryan, they are filthy scum. They are anything but Aryan.
They are probably Dravidians.

[Odoacer]

Are the guys voting for Gypsies serious?
They are not Aryan, they are filthy scum. They are anything but Aryan.
They are probably Dravidians.

Probably most people are voting for that group because it includes Indians, who were the first to use the word in the Vedas. You grouped them together.

[Stegura]

Are the guys voting for Gypsies serious?
They are not Aryan, they are filthy scum. They are anything but Aryan.
They are probably Dravidians.

HungAryan, you seem to be forgetting that "Aryan" isn't a racial term. It's a cultural and linguistic term. Non-White and non-European civilizations like the Perisans and Indians used the term "Aryan" to refer to themsleves long before Nazi Propagandists hijacked that term for their own self-glorification!

[Thunor]

The Balts are missing from that poll. I hazarded a vote on the Slavs, although it should've gone to the Balts. I've read somewhere that Lithuanians are the most "undiluted" Indo-Europeans in the modern day.

[StonyArabia]

The Baltic peoples apparently Lativan and Lithunian are the most closely related langauges to sanskirt. The Aryans and proto-Indo-Europeans are two different things, and it gets more complex.

[Robertt52]

I thought it was Finns until this Swedish man told me Finns had Mongol in them. It really confused me because I always believed Finns were purer?

[Midori]

gypsies.

I agree. :coffee:

[Mordid]

Aherneistan.

[Äike]

I see that most people voted for the Scandinavians. Well, Scandinavians are the least Indo-European/Aryan people among Indo-European speaking people. The Indo-European genetic input in them is very minimal, thus they have a lot of blond hair and blue eyes and resemble the native Upper Paleolithic inhabitants of Northern-Europe (Estonians & Finns)

[Foxy]

Iranians. Iran = land of the aryans, of the noble people.

The term Iranian is derived from the Old Iranian ethnical adjective Aryana which is itself a cognate of the Sanskrit word Arya.[11][12] The name Iran is from Aryānām; lit: "[Land] of the Aryans".[13][14] The old Proto-Indo-Iranian term Arya, per Thieme meaning "hospitable", is believed to have been one of the self-referential terms used by the Aryans, at least in the areas populated by Aryans who migrated south from Central Asia. Another meaning for Aryan is noble. In the late part of the Avesta (Vendidad 1) one of their homelands was referred to as Airyanem Vaejah. The homeland varied in its geographic range, the area around Herat (Pliny's view) and even the entire expanse of the Iranian plateau (Strabo's designation).[14]

[Mercury]

I see that most people voted for the Scandinavians. Well, Scandinavians are the least Indo-European/Aryan people among Indo-European speaking people. The Indo-European genetic input in them is very minimal, thus they have a lot of blond hair and blue eyes and resemble the native Upper Paleolithic inhabitants of Northern-Europe (Estonians & Finns)

Actually, the British probably have the least Indo-European input. Genetics show the Celts may have never even arrived in Ireland, but the natives there became Celtic through trading.

[askra]

Of those choices, the South Asians. Aryan does not mean blonde/blue eyed, people!

indeed :D

http://www.11points.com/images/tshirts/swast.jpg

[Zack_Fair]

Iranians. Who else?
@ The OP
Why are you so hung up on being Aryan?

[zack]

Whats with this Aryan obsession?

[Zack_Fair]

Whats with this Aryan obsession?

I don't get it either.

[Damião de Góis]

Actually, the British probably have the least Indo-European input. Genetics show the Celts may have never even arrived in Ireland, but the natives there became Celtic through trading.

That would be funny if true :p

[Black Sun Dimension]

Iranians.

[Teyrn]

^
Ancient Iranians which the Parsees are the closest to being imo.

[Mercury]

That would be funny if true :p

I find it amusing how so many British 'Celtic' symbols seem to predate the actual Celtic people. Such as the Celtic spiral (http://api.ning.com/files/u6oFahcw4prDfqTXjKg4mi2h5Wcy8*unYWFr1E3VQrzgSX17vG 9S87EdPDegQSakHOAUIR-Hs3MI5zlGCNwxLPyMqd7Yy4ZT/SpiralTriple.jpg). I've always wondered how Celtic the British actually were compared to people such as the Gauls, Iberians, and Galatians.

[Mortimer]

Iranians. Iran = land of the aryans, of the noble people.

The term Iranian is derived from the Old Iranian ethnical adjective Aryana which is itself a cognate of the Sanskrit word Arya.[11][12] The name Iran is from Aryānām; lit: "[Land] of the Aryans".[13][14] The old Proto-Indo-Iranian term Arya, per Thieme meaning "hospitable", is believed to have been one of the self-referential terms used by the Aryans, at least in the areas populated by Aryans who migrated south from Central Asia. Another meaning for Aryan is noble. In the late part of the Avesta (Vendidad 1) one of their homelands was referred to as Airyanem Vaejah. The homeland varied in its geographic range, the area around Herat (Pliny's view) and even the entire expanse of the Iranian plateau (Strabo's designation).[14]

whats with the bold?

[Sarmatian]

This poll is wrong on so many points.

Firstly there is no such nation as Indians. There are Hindu and they are very different from Gypsies as latest originated from Dravidians.

Scandinavians cannot be purest Aryans as they have strong Cro-Magnon and Finno-Ugric in them.
Same goes for Germans with exception they have no Finno-Ugric but alot of Celtic component in them.

And the main problem the poll have no me in it :wink

[Zack_Fair]

This poll is wrong on so many points.

Firstly there is no such nation as Indians. There are Hindu and they are very different from Gypsies as latest originated from Dravidians.

Scandinavians cannot be purest Aryans as they have strong Cro-Magnon and Finno-Ugric in them.
Same goes for Germans with exception they have no Finno-Ugric but alot of Celtic component in them.

And the main problem the poll have no me in it :wink

Clarify the bolded.

[Damião de Góis]

I've always wondered how Celtic the British actually were compared to people such as the Gauls, Iberians, and Galatians.

It's difficult to tell. All we have is modern people from those areas, and they don't look much alike.

[Sarmatian]

Clarify the bolded.

As far as I'm aware the origin of Gypsies is Ceylon and Hindus have never made it so far South in masses.

[beaver]

Dark pigmented Meds with strong noses if you are talking about the ivaiders to India. They have no I1 even like a trace

[Mortimer]

As far as I'm aware the origin of Gypsies is Ceylon and Hindus have never made it so far South in masses.

The origin of Gypsies is in Northwest India not in Sri Lanka.

Source
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0015988

The subcontinental region showing higher probability of being the source of Roma sequences was North-western India (0.72), followed by Eastern India (0.20) while the rest of the subcontinental regions accounted only for 8% of the probability. When the analysis was performed at state level, results pointed at Punjab state (in North-Western India) as the most probable candidate to be the ancestral homeland of the Roma mtDNA types (probability = 0.54).

[Zack_Fair]

^ Well, Gypsies being Sri Lankan would make sense. Since Punjabis have less Weddoid admixture. Gypsies retain Weddoid features, which would mean that they were Weddoid from the start.

[Mortimer]

^ Well, Gypsies being Sri Lankan would make sense. Since Punjabis have less Weddoid admixture. Gypsies retain Weddoid features, which would mean that they were Weddoid from the start.

Where there ever a study on how much weddoid gypsies are? I think the average gypsies look like your average punjabi but could fit in other states as well since most indians are similar.

A autosomal study showed gypsies to be highly westerneurasian with little "indian" genetics. Also the Sinhalese are closer to westerneurasia and according to legend they arrived from bengal to sri lanka.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinhalese_people

[Aiur]

Jealous of you, yes of course! :thumb001: ;) :rolleyes:
I thank God every day I am not born a Gypsy, Romanian or Slotak.

aahahaha, dare to say that in our country

[Arsen_]

In Ancient World inhabitants of Iran seemed to be called Aryans.

For example in book called "History of Armenians" written in the 5th century by Armenian scholar Movses Khorenatsi Iran is often called as Country of Aryans.

The same way in Armenian geographical book of 7th century called "Ashxaracuic" (Worldindicator) also Eastern part of Iran is called Arya.

Interestingly in that Armenian geographical book Mediterranean Sea was called Greek Sea and there were only 12 states in Europe indicated:

1. Spania
2. Britanacuoc (consisted of Ibernia and Aluvion)
3. Gallia
4. Germania
5. Dalmatia
6. Italia with Korcika included
7. Sardonia
8. Sikilia
9. Sarmatia
10. Frakia
11. Makedonia
12. Ellada

[Pallantides]

Yay judging by the votes we are almost as "Aryan" as gypsies, indians and Pakistani:embarrassed


Scandinavians are Aryans only in fantasy.

[The Ripper]

Yay judging by the votes we are almost as "Aryan" as gypsies, indians and Pakistani:embarrassed


Scandinavians are Aryans only in fantasy.

It seems there are two competing theories. ;)

[GeistFaust]

Iranic peoples, Scythian/Kurgan/Samartian descended Eastern Europeans, and I suppose you could say people who belong to the R1a haplogroup.

[Mortimer]

Iranic peoples, Scythian/Kurgan/Samartian descended Eastern Europeans, and I suppose you could say people who belong to the R1a haplogroup.

The usage aryan is completely wrong in this context, because aryan derrives from sanskrit usage before aryans used it as synonym for their ethnicity. aryan in sanksrit is someone who practices the sanathan dharma properly, who sacrifices properly.

"O my Lord, a person who is chanting Your holy name, although born of a low family like that of a Chandala, is situated on the highest platform of self-realization. Such a person must have performed all kinds of penances and sacrifices according to Vedic literatures many, many times after taking bath in all the holy places of pilgrimage. Such a person is considered to be the best of the Arya family" (Bhagavata Purana 3.33.7).

[Ariana]

Iranic peoples, Scythian/Kurgan/Samartian descended Eastern Europeans, and I suppose you could say people who belong to the R1a haplogroup.

+1

But the OP didn't even include Iranians in the poll. He already knew that they are the real Aryans but wanted to test his own conceit.

[Ariana]

The usage aryan is completely wrong in this context, because aryan derrives from sanskrit usage before aryans used it as synonym for their ethnicity. aryan in sanksrit is someone who practices the sanathan dharma properly, who sacrifices properly.

"O my Lord, a person who is chanting Your holy name, although born of a low family like that of a Chandala, is situated on the highest platform of self-realization. Such a person must have performed all kinds of penances and sacrifices according to Vedic literatures many, many times after taking bath in all the holy places of pilgrimage. Such a person is considered to be the best of the Arya family" (Bhagavata Purana 3.33.7).

We're talking about Aryan as an ethnic designation here. Leave that Sanskrit bullshit alone please. Indians never refered to themselves as Aryans, and the term Aryan was proto-Iranian (found in the Avestan) before Sanskrit came to India via the Iranian plateau. You can find Iranians using it as an ethnic designation for themselves in the Behistun description which confirms that they were the first to use it as an ethnic term.

[RagnarLodbrok666]

The usage aryan is completely wrong in this context, because aryan derrives from sanskrit usage before aryans used it as synonym for their ethnicity. aryan in sanksrit is someone who practices the sanathan dharma properly, who sacrifices properly.

"O my Lord, a person who is chanting Your holy name, although born of a low family like that of a Chandala, is situated on the highest platform of self-realization. Such a person must have performed all kinds of penances and sacrifices according to Vedic literatures many, many times after taking bath in all the holy places of pilgrimage. Such a person is considered to be the best of the Arya family" (Bhagavata Purana 3.33.7).

In other words the term itself originates from the Vedic pagan faith which over thousands of years evolved into Hinduism and Buddhism? What about a possible Zorastrian origin?

[Ariana]

In other words the term itself originates from the Vedic pagan faith which over thousands of years evolved into Hinduism and Buddhism? What about a possible Zorastrian origin?

Read here (http://books.google.ca/books?id=lxQ9W6F1oSYC&pg=PA180&lpg=PA180&dq=behistun+description+aryans&source=bl&ots=XBkR2sut6P&sig=d1Ay_XyjMDWK0PW4EyWYhhunzIs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-RBhT8yVD-W42wXirJj9Bw&ved=0CFIQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=behistun%20description%20aryans&f=false).

[Pyramidologist]

Aryans (Indo-Europeans) were an ethno-linguistic group within the Nordid subrace, most Nordids were Aryan. Although the Nordid racial type still exists in pure form (blonde hair, depigmentation etc) the Aryans no longer exist as an ethnicity, they are diluted or absorbed. As Thomas Huxley wrote:

''There was and is an Aryan race — that is to say, the characteristic modes of speech, termed Aryan, were developed among the blond long-heads alone however much some of them may have been modified by the importation of non-Aryan elements...''

Aryans were not solely a racial type, they were also an ethnicity. The former exists as the Nordic or Nordid subrace, the latter doesn't, having admixed with non-Aryans. Most people don't understand this, and still call themselves as ''Aryan'', when they aren't, they only have Aryan genes and phenotype.

[Ariana]

Aryans (Indo-Europeans) were an ethno-linguistic group within the Nordid subrace, most Nordids were Aryan. Although the Nordid racial type still exists in pure form (blonde hair, depigmentation etc) the Aryans no longer exist as an ethnicity, they are diluted or absorbed. As Thomas Huxley wrote:

''There was and is an Aryan race — that is to say, the characteristic modes of speech, termed Aryan, were developed among the blond long-heads alone however much some of them may have been modified by the importation of non-Aryan elements...''

Aryans were not solely a racial type, they were also an ethnicity. The former exists as the Nordic or Nordid subrace, the latter doesn't, having admixed with non-Aryans. Most people don't understand this, and still call themselves as ''Aryan'', when they aren't, they only have Aryan genes and phenotype.

You're totally wrong because Scandinavians were certainly not Aryans and never did they call themselves such. Nord =/= Aryan. Blue eyes blonde hair =/= Aryan.

The Indo-Iranian languages = Aryan languages
The Iranic people = The Aryans
Iran = Land of the Aryans

That's the reality for you without the fantasy and romance.

[Pyramidologist]

The pre-PIE (Pre-Proto-Indo-Europeans) were Mediterranids who depigmentated around the Black Sea region (the PIE homeland) evolving into the first PIE Nordids (blondes). This exact region is also where scientists have tracked the first mutation of brown to blue eyes. So yes the Aryan peoples were blonde and blue eyed, this is proven by vast amounts of ancient literature and other sources.

Blondism was spread across Europe and the Middle-East by the Aryans (Indo-Europeans). The aboriginal pre-Indo-Europeans were easily conquered because they were matriarchal and inferior. The Aryans were patriarchal and warlike, with a higher civilization, Gimbutas and other archaeologists have associated them with the 'Battle Axe' culture(s).

[Mortimer]

We're talking about Aryan as an ethnic designation here. Leave that Sanskrit bullshit alone please. Indians never refered to themselves as Aryans, and the term Aryan was proto-Iranian (found in the Avestan) before Sanskrit came to India via the Iranian plateau. You can find Iranians using it as an ethnic designation for themselves in the Behistun description which confirms that they were the first to use it as an ethnic term.

the usage is older than the iranian, probably iranians refered to themselfes later as aryans influenced by indians. they just changed it to be a ethnic designation.

[Pyramidologist]

You're totally wrong because Scandinavians were certainly not Aryans and never did they call themselves such. Nord =/= Aryan. Blue eyes blonde hair =/= Aryan.

The Indo-Iranian languages = Aryan languages
The Iranic people = The Aryans
Iran = Land of the Aryans

That's the reality for you without the fantasy and romance.

Aryan languages = Indo-European

Indo-Iranian is merely a branch of IE.

Iran, yes historically called land of the Aryans. But so was Ireland (Eire = Arya) and many other places.

The Aryans were not confined to Iran, they merely colonised there like many other places. The Aryan homeland was around the Black Sea, they dispersed all over after the Black Sea deluge c. 5600 BC.

All this is common knowledge. Not sure what you've been reading.

[Libertas]

The Aryans were patriarchal and warlike, with a higher civilization, Gimbutas and other archaeologists have associated them with the 'Battle Axe' culture(s).

Quite a joke comparing steppe nomads with the great civilisations of the Fertile Crescent and the Indus valley civilisation.

[Mortimer]

I recommend
http://www.amazon.com/Return-Aryans-Bhagwan-S-Gidwani/dp/0140240535

[Mortimer]

Aryan languages = Indo-European

Indo-Iranian is merely a branch of IE.

Iran, yes historically called land of the Aryans. But so was Ireland (Eire = Arya) and many other places.

The Aryans were not confined to Iran, they merely colonised there like many other places. The Aryan homeland was around the Black Sea, they dispersed all over after the Black Sea deluge c. 5600 BC.

All this is common knowledge. Not sure what you've been reading.

Sorry Pyramidologist but thats just a coincidence in word similarity, has anyone serious ever confirmed Ireland means Aryan?

[Odoacer]

the usage is older than the iranian, probably iranians refered to themselfes later as aryans influenced by indians. they just changed it to be a ethnic designation.

Yes, which is precisely why Indians cannot be called "Aryans" as any kind of ethnic designation.

[Pyramidologist]

Sorry Pyramidologist but thats just a coincidence in word similarity, has anyone serious ever confirmed Ireland means Aryan?

The Aryans left their mark, we find cognates in many languages denoting noble, venerated, lord master, higher class etc, -

Sanskrit-Arya, the exalted, or noble, master, lord, an Aryan, one of the 'exalted' ruling race. Arya-man, a companion[Aryan]. Old Persian-Ariya. Iranian- Airya-a racial title used by Darius on his tomb. Has the same general sense as in the Sanskrit. Hittite-Ara, member of one's own group, peer, friend. Lycian[Anatolian language from South- West Anatolia]-Arus, citizens. Greek- Areion, better, stronger, braver, usually derived from Ares, war, but probably cognate with Airo, exalt. Ar-istos, best. Heros, a hero, a freeman. Arios or Herios a title of the Medes and Persians. Aeria or Herie, a Greek name for Egypt. Harma-chariot. Gothic-Harri, lord or king. Her, a noble man. Her-sir, a chief, a lord. Norwegian-Herre, lord, master, gentleman. German-Herr, lord, master, gentleman. Dutch-heer, lord, master, gentleman. Cornish and Celtic-Arhu, command. Old English-Hearra, lord, master. Eorl, Erl-cognate with Jarl, a chief, leader, hero, man of valour.

Research connects the Aryans, to ''plough-men'' (ar, ara), the more noble superior introducers of advanced agriculture and technology.

plough man, plough:

Old Irish: airim
Latin: arare or ara-irum
Gothic: arjan
Old Norse: erja
Swedish: arja
Old English: erian
Middle English: erien
Modern English: ear
Old Saxon: erian
Old High German: erran
Middle High German: ern
Lithuanian: arti
Cornish: aradar
Welsh: arad

[Ariana]

the usage is older than the iranian, probably iranians refered to themselfes later as aryans influenced by indians. they just changed it to be a ethnic designation.

Iranians were not influenced by Indians. It was the other way around, Indians were influenced by Iranians (Aryans) which they got their language and culture from. You could say the original speakers of Sanskrit were proto-Iranians that lived somewhere in Iran and then began colonizing the southeast in India, which made Indians also Aryans, but only linguistically through the colonization process. The original Indians were dravidians and that's why Indians never referred to themselves as Aryans, because they only got their language from Aryans. Iranians are however both ethnically and linguistically Aryans.


Aryan languages = Indo-European

Indo-Iranian is merely a branch of IE.

Iran, yes historically called land of the Aryans. But so was Ireland (Eire = Arya) and many other places.

The Aryans were not confined to Iran, they merely colonised there like many other places. The Aryan homeland was around the Black Sea, they dispersed all over after the Black Sea deluge c. 5600 BC.

All this is common knowledge. Not sure what you've been reading.

No, Proto-Indo European =/= Aryan

The Aryans were a branch of the Proto-Indo-European people. The branch that is the Iranic peoples (ethnically and linguistically) and Indic peoples (only linguistically).

[Mortimer]

Yes, which is precisely why Indians cannot be called "Aryans" as any kind of ethnic designation.

not all indians but hindus. a aryan is somebody who practices the hindu faith.

[Mortimer]

Iranians were not influenced by Indians. It was the other way around, Indians were influenced by Iranians (Aryans) which they got their language and culture from. You could say the original speakers of Sanskrit were proto-Iranians that lived somewhere in Iran and then began colonizing the southeast in India, which made Indians also Aryans, but only linguistically. That's why Indians never referred to themselves as Aryans, because they only got their language from Aryans. Iranians are however both ethnically and linguistically Aryans.

but since indian usage is older its probably the other way around. and iranians are half-dravidians since elamites were dravidians.

[beaver]

Find me in the north India at least traces of I1

[Pyramidologist]

The Aryans were a branch of the Proto-Indo-European people. The branch that is the Iranic peoples (ethnically and linguistically) and Indic peoples (only linguistically).

Aryan = Indo-European. You are posting nonsense.

The PIE has been reconstructed...

Mallory in his The Oxford Introduction To Proto-Indo-European and the Proto-Indo-European World (Oxford University Press, 2006) has reconstructed the word Aryan (or 'Arya') from a Proto-Indo-European (PIE) source *A^erdi or ^h^eryos meaning ''member of one's own group'' e.g. ethnic group. Mallory has also noted that the Hittite ara- means "member of one's own group, peer, friend", while the Lycian ''arus'' means "citizens", the Old Irish ''aire'' "freeman", while the Avestan ''airya'' and the Sanskrit ''arya'' also denote an exalted or ruling class (the Indo-European root word, "ar" translates literally as "noble").

The PIE's were calling themselves a cognate of Aryan, over 7,000 years ago. This then spread after the divergences of the Indo-European languages, hence we find in all branches the Indo-Europeans calling themselves arus, arya, ar, airya etcetc.

[Ariana]

Find me in the north India at least traces of I1


Here's a map. But what does I1 have to do with this?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8hrpSzCnkMM/TY_89L7Z-OI/AAAAAAAABkA/8PY8RCS7tEQ/s1600/WorldHaplogroupsMaps1.png

[Mortimer]

Aryan = Indo-European. You are posting nonsense.

The PIE has been reconstructed...

Mallory in his The Oxford Introduction To Proto-Indo-European and the Proto-Indo-European World (Oxford University Press, 2006) has reconstructed the word Aryan (or 'Arya') from a Proto-Indo-European (PIE) source *A^erdi or ^h^eryos meaning ''member of one's own group'' e.g. ethnic group. Mallory has also noted that the Hittite ara- means "member of one's own group, peer, friend", while the Lycian ''arus'' means "citizens", the Old Irish ''aire'' "freeman", while the Avestan ''airya'' and the Sanskrit ''arya'' also denote an exalted or ruling class (the Indo-European root word, "ar" translates literally as "noble").

The PIE's were calling themselves a cognate of Aryan, over 7,000 years ago. This then spread after the divergences of the Indo-European languages, hence we find in all branches the Indo-Europeans calling themselves arus, arya, ar, airya etcetc.

To me it looks like this that it is just hypothetized to be of PIE Source, but most probably it evolved after the split of PIE into different branches, the most clear unambigous and prominent usage is in sanksrit and iranian.

[Mortimer]

Here's a map. But what does I1 have to do with this?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8hrpSzCnkMM/TY_89L7Z-OI/AAAAAAAABkA/8PY8RCS7tEQ/s1600/WorldHaplogroupsMaps1.png

I1a is the nordic haplogroup. If Aryans were nordic there would be an I1a in NorthIndia

[Pyramidologist]

I1a is the nordic haplogroup. If Aryans were nordic there would be an I1a in NorthIndia

Phenotype has no link to haplogroup. These studies are quite useless, all they can do is pinpoint a mutation on the map, so its only sometimes useful to identify where people originated.

[Ariana]

Aryan = Indo-European. You are posting nonsense.

The PIE has been reconstructed...

Mallory in his The Oxford Introduction To Proto-Indo-European and the Proto-Indo-European World (Oxford University Press, 2006) has reconstructed the word Aryan (or 'Arya') from a Proto-Indo-European (PIE) source *A^erdi or ^h^eryos meaning ''member of one's own group'' e.g. ethnic group. Mallory has also noted that the Hittite ara- means "member of one's own group, peer, friend", while the Lycian ''arus'' means "citizens", the Old Irish ''aire'' "freeman", while the Avestan ''airya'' and the Sanskrit ''arya'' also denote an exalted or ruling class (the Indo-European root word, "ar" translates literally as "noble").

The PIE's were calling themselves a cognate of Aryan, over 7,000 years ago. This then spread after the divergences of the Indo-European languages, hence we find in all branches the Indo-Europeans calling themselves arus, arya, ar, airya etcetc.

This is not about proto-Indo-European root and the commonalities between Indo-European languages. Obviously these languages share commonalities or else they wouldn't belong to the same language family.

This is about who used the term 'Aryan' as an ethnic designation. Obviously none of the above did except for Iranians.


I1a is the nordic haplogroup. If Aryans were nordic there would be an I1a in NorthIndia

I think it's silly connecting haplogroups (which are far older) to the Aryans or other ancient peoples. And I also think that these ancient people were not only of one haplogroup anyway.

[Pyramidologist]

This is about who used the term 'Aryan' as an ethnic designation. Obviously none of the above did except for Iranians.

''Sanskrit-Arya, the exalted, or noble, master, lord, an Aryan, one of the 'exalted' ruling race. Arya-man, a companion[Aryan]. Old Persian-Ariya. Iranian- Airya-a racial title used by Darius on his tomb. Has the same general sense as in the Sanskrit. Hittite-Ara, member of one's own group, peer, friend. Lycian[Anatolian language from South- West Anatolia]-Arus, citizens. Greek- Areion, better, stronger, braver, usually derived from Ares, war, but probably cognate with Airo, exalt. Ar-istos, best. Heros, a hero, a freeman. Arios or Herios a title of the Medes and Persians. Aeria or Herie, a Greek name for Egypt. Harma-chariot. Gothic-Harri, lord or king. Her, a noble man. Her-sir, a chief, a lord. Norwegian-Herre, lord, master, gentleman. German-Herr, lord, master, gentleman. Dutch-heer, lord, master, gentleman. Cornish and Celtic-Arhu, command. Old English-Hearra, lord, master. Eorl, Erl-cognate with Jarl, a chief, leader, hero, man of valour.''

Aryan cognates were used as ethnic designations for all Indo-European branches, not just the Iranians. See the list above, there are many more. All Indo-Europeans are Aryans, they are synonymous terms, its just that Aryan has falled out of usage in modern literature for Indo-European because of political correctness.

[Pallantides]

Find me in the north India at least traces of I1

I1 have very high frequencies in non IE populations like the Saami and Finns. It most likely predates Indo-European expansion.

[Aviane]

Of those choices, the South Asians. Aryan does not mean blonde/blue eyed, people!

This is probably the best answer to the thread.

[StonyArabia]

The Aryans are the people of the Indo-Iranian region. Iran means land of the Aryans, and so does Afghanistan, in fact it was known by the name of Aryana which is a popular feminine name in that nation.

[beaver]

I1 have very high frequencies in non IE populations like the Saami and Finns. It most likely predates Indo-European expansion.

I1 is a satellite of light pigmentation, North Indians dont have it. So, real Aryans were dark pigmented. This is all i wanted to say.

[Ariana]

I1 is a satellite of light pigmentation, North Indians dont have it. So, real Aryans were dark pigmented. This is all i wanted to say.

The Aryans weren't dark, but at the same time they weren't blondes either.

[RagnarLodbrok666]

The names Eire and Ireland also originate from the root word Aryan(exactly the same way that the name Iran originated from the word) as well. Aryo-Celts and Germanics...their modern day descendants pretty much measure up as the purest Aryans.

[Ariana]

The names Eire and Ireland also originate from the root word Aryan(exactly the same way that the name Iran originated from the word) as well. Aryo-Celts and Germanics...their modern day descendants pretty much measure up as the purest Aryans.

Irish "Eire" has nothing to do (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/eire) with Indo-Iranian 'Arya'.

[Thunor]

Iranians are the purest Aryans? LOL. They have lots and lots of non-Aryan admixture, mainly from South Asians and Semites.

I still maintain that the Baltic peoples are the purest Aryans.

[beaver]

I still maintain that the Baltic peoples are the purest Aryans.

They have very serious traces. For example, Latvians have surnames like Bramanis, Brahmanis, Bramanieks and so on. And they have in "daynas" (legends) the memory about priestly caste - "bramani". Russian version of the dayna:

Прискакали с раных сторон (отовсюду)что бы собраться браманы
На Высокую гору
Повесили мечи
На свещенном дереве (на дерево).
У Священного дерева
Девять ветвей,
На конце каждой ветви
Девять цветов,
На конце каждого цветка
Девять ягод.

I also have Latvian original but I dont have translation to English

In Latvian

Sājāja bramaņi
Augstajā kalnā,
Sakāra zobenus
Svētajā kokā.
Svētajam kokam
Deviņi zari,
Ik zara galā
Deviņi ziedi,
Ik zieda galā
Deviņas ogas.

Maybe Latvian comrades will translate? It is also a riddle

But, at the same time, Latvians have up to 40% of N1с

[Äike]

Iranians are the purest Aryans? LOL. They have lots and lots of non-Aryan admixture, mainly from South Asians and Semites.

I still maintain that the Baltic peoples are the purest Aryans.


LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL ;)

The Balts are genetically one of the least Indo-European people in Europe. They are very FinN1C by blood.

Most Indo-European people are probably Iranians or Afghanistanis (the ones without Arab admixture)

[The Ripper]

"Most aryan" and "Most indo-European" rely on set, static definitions of those populations. But we know they're not static, they're dynamic. So which time frame do we take our snap-shot from, and declare "There. At that time in that place they were at their most Aryan, and to that time and place shall all Aryans from henceforth be compared to"?

[riverman]

Without a set definition of "Aryan" this question is moot.

[Waidewut]

They have very serious traces. For example, Latvians have surnames like Bramanis, Brahmanis, Bramanieks and so on. And they have in "daynas" (legends) the memory about priestly caste - "bramani". Russian version of the dayna:

Прискакали с раных сторон (отовсюду)что бы собраться браманы
На Высокую гору
Повесили мечи
На свещенном дереве (на дерево).
У Священного дерева
Девять ветвей,
На конце каждой ветви
Девять цветов,
На конце каждого цветка
Девять ягод.

I also have Latvian original but I dont have translation to English

In Latvian

Sājāja bramaņi
Augstajā kalnā,
Sakāra zobenus
Svētajā kokā.
Svētajam kokam
Deviņi zari,
Ik zara galā
Deviņi ziedi,
Ik zieda galā
Deviņas ogas.

Maybe Latvian comrades will translate? It is also a riddle

But, at the same time, Latvians have up to 40% of N1с

I would feel honoured to translate this, Russian comrade.


The priests rode together,
On the highest mountain.
They hung their swords,
On the holy tree.
The holy tree,
had 9 branches.
At the end of every branch,
Were 9 flowers.
At the end of every flower,
Were 9 berries.

This is Latvian folksong/daina number 34075, and there is a theory about it being a code for an ancient Indo-European calendar.

Holy tree+ 9 branches x 9 flowers x 9 beries = 1+(9x9x9)= 730

730 is 365 days and 365 nights of a year.

A thread about Baltic language relation to Sanskrit, in the Baltic social group. (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=760497#post760497)

[beaver]

Holy tree+ 9 branches x 9 flowers x 9 beries = 1+(9x9x9)= 730

many thanks,Waidewut .
(1 + (9x9x9)) /2 = 365
balts counted nights and days separatly, you are correct
so, its a Tree of Time and the bramanis were real priests

[Waidewut]

many thanks,Waidewut .
(1 + (9x9x9)) /2 = 365
balts counted nights and days separatly, you are correct
so, its a Tree of Time and the bramanis were real priests

Yes and the highest mountain is meant to be the centre of the world/universe.

[Ariana]

The bottom line is that all Indo-Europeans =/= Aryans. The Aryans were a tribal confederation of some Indo-Europeans, mainly the Indo-Iranians who were actually referred to as 'the Aryan people' and their languages 'the Aryan languages' until Jewish lobbyists took over the scientific community after WW2 and created the state known as 'Israel' today. Basically the move was made in order to weaken Iran.

[Mercury]

The bottom line is that all Indo-Europeans =/= Aryans. The Aryans were a tribal confederation of some Indo-Europeans, mainly the Indo-Iranians who were actually referred to as 'the Aryan people' and their languages 'the Aryan languages' until Jewish lobbyists took over the scientific community after WW2 and created the state known as 'Israel' today. Basically the move was made in order to weaken Iran.

Like I said earlier, that may not be true after all. It's possible the original proto-IE people referred to themselves as Aryan people, which is why Finns called their neighbors Orja, which is derived from Aryans.

[Ariana]

(The Aryan languages) (http://books.google.ca/books?vid=ISBN3110161133&id=KFBDGWjCP7gC&pg=PA221&lpg=PA221&vq=aryan+languages&dq=aryan+languages+iranian&sig=11bYU5iUtJpZx-Ct7VdMBvOjG_c&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=aryan%20languages&f=false)

1. Indo-Aryan (including the Dardic group)
2. Iranian
3. Nuristani

[Rereg]

Aryans were proto-Iranic people from Central Asia who had invaded black Dravidian India and later mingled with them.

Thread closed.

[StonyArabia]

Most Indo-European people are probably Iranians or Afghanistanis (the ones without Arab admixture)

I don't think they have much Arab admix.

[Pyramidologist]

(The Aryan languages) (http://books.google.ca/books?vid=ISBN3110161133&id=KFBDGWjCP7gC&pg=PA221&lpg=PA221&vq=aryan+languages&dq=aryan+languages+iranian&sig=11bYU5iUtJpZx-Ct7VdMBvOjG_c&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=aryan%20languages&f=false)

1. Indo-Aryan (including the Dardic group)
2. Iranian
3. Nuristani

Aryan languages = Indo-European

Indo-Iranian is merely a branch of IE.

The peoples who spread the Aryan language were blonde dolichocephalics, or Nordids. Please read Day's Indo-European Origins (2001) for the masses and masses of anthropological evidence. The Indo-Europeans (Aryans) were not dark, but fair haired and depigmentated.

[Aviane]

If you want to add these people as purer then it's these groups in no particular order:

Gypsies, Indians and Pakistanis.

Brits.

Scandinavians.

[Pyramidologist]

If you want to add these people as purer then it's these groups in no particular order:

Gypsies, Indians and Pakistanis.

Brits.

Scandinavians.

purer of what?:confused:

[Gratis]

The Nordics.

What a beautiful people.

[Pallantides]

The Nordics.

What a beautiful people.

Not sure if serious(the last part is true though:))

[Gratis]

Not sure if serious(the last part is true though:))

Why wouldn't I be serious?

[Pallantides]

Why wouldn't I be serious?

Because Nordic people are not really Aryan.


Nordics are mostly descendant from Mesolithic North-Europeans with Indo-European and some Neolithic influence(also a little North Asian influence in certain areas)

[RagnarLodbrok666]

Because Nordic people are not really Aryan.


Nordics are mostly descendant from Mesolithic North-Europeans with Indo-European and some Neolithic influence(also a little North Asian influence in certain areas)

Aren't the mesolitic and neolithic peoples themselves pre-IndoEuropeans deriving from neanderthal/cro-magnon mixed strains emerging from the end of the ice age.

I myself have always credited my love for athletics and the outdoors and the level of comfort I have always had being there on these nomad, reindeer chasing ancestors. That would just make these neolithic peoples and the Aryo-Celts cousins.

[StonyArabia]

There is no such thing as Aryan. If there is any group to have a right to that title it's the various Indo-Iranian ethnic group residing in India and Iran.

[SilverKnight]

Indians, Pakis, and any Indo-European people like the Iberians and some other parts of Western Europe.

[Chego]

Dinarics or Scandinavians, I'd say...

[Styggnacke]

Scandinavians aren't the purest Aryans. :coffee:

[Chego]

Aryan...
Always a troubling word...

[JamesSteal]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say Australoid. Eloquently pure, relatively sexually dismorphic and unashamedly quite dashing.

[Chego]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say Australoid.
:eek:

[Bronze]

We're talking about Aryan as an ethnic designation here. Leave that Sanskrit bullshit alone please. Indians never refered to themselves as Aryans, and the term Aryan was proto-Iranian (found in the Avestan) before Sanskrit came to India via the Iranian plateau. You can find Iranians using it as an ethnic designation for themselves in the Behistun description which confirms that they were the first to use it as an ethnic term.

actually the term Aryan was used by indians long before iranians used it, its true that iranians used it as an ethnonym, but indians still used the word first.

Btw old persian is derived from sanskrit, not the other way around. So the language-group traveled from south asia to the iranian plateau.

[hajduk]

An epic battle between gypsies and scandinavians?

[Äike]

An epic battle between gypsies and scandinavians?

People who took Hitler too seriously voted for the Scandinavians, all the rest voted for the Gypsies. :p

[Gaztelu]

Polacks, Russians, and Ukrainians obviously

[Bronze]

Iranians were not influenced by Indians. It was the other way around, Indians were influenced by Iranians (Aryans) which they got their language and culture from. You could say the original speakers of Sanskrit were proto-Iranians that lived somewhere in Iran and then began colonizing the southeast in India, which made Indians also Aryans, but only linguistically through the colonization process. The original Indians were dravidians and that's why Indians never referred to themselves as Aryans, because they only got their language from Aryans. Iranians are however both ethnically and linguistically Aryans.



No, Proto-Indo European =/= Aryan

The Aryans were a branch of the Proto-Indo-European people. The branch that is the Iranic peoples (ethnically and linguistically) and Indic peoples (only linguistically).

thats a load of horseshit, iranians where definitely influenced by indians, there are even ruins of ancient buddhist temples and other artifacts in west/central asia.

Indians where only influenced by the iranians through the mughal empire, who where mongol/persian/turkic mutts and they brought islam, not any vedic influences.

Vedic sanskrit in south asia is older than any known iranian/persian language, so it must have traveled from south asia into Iran, not the other way around like you are claiming.

And if you are trying to use R1a as evidence, it doesnt work like that, you have to separate linguistic evidence from genetic evidence, the R1a haplogroup is far older than the proto-indo-iranian language group in any case.

And regardless so far there isnt any conclusive evidence where R1a originated, it could have originated in central asia, eastern europe, anatolia or the indus valley region to name a few possible locations.

[Ariets]

This thread is a laugh. Why do the mods don't make a special category for such silly threads?

[Riki]

After researching on the Internet,this Is what I found.

"...., the "Aryan race" was defined as the subgroup of the Caucasian (or Europid) race consisting of the native speakers of Indo-European languages descended from the original Proto-Indo-Europeans, that in modern times reside in Northern India, Sri Lanka, Maldives, Pakistan, Gujarat, Maharashtra, Eastern India, Bangladesh, Nepal, Northeast India, Europe, Asian Russia, Anglo-America, Quebec, Southern South America, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand, Armenia, Iran, and in Afghanistan and Tadzhikistan......"

[StonyArabia]

Aryan is not a race, it just means noble. So anyone can be an Aryan in that sense nothing with purity lol

[Äike]

Aryan is not a race, it just means noble. So anyone can be an Aryan in that sense nothing with purity lol

In Estonian and Finnish the word for "slave" (ori/orja) derives from the word "Aryan", as the first Indo-Europeans we met, were probably kept as slaves. :p

[JamesSteal]

Of course the Gypsies are the epitome of all things Aryan. An astonishing people, indeed. When they perspire, they just reek of nobility.

[rashka]

actually the term Aryan was used by indians long before iranians used it, its true that iranians used it as an ethnonym, but indians still used the word first.

Btw old persian is derived from sanskrit, not the other way around. So the language-group traveled from south asia to the iranian plateau.


According to wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_Sanskrit

Vedic Sanskrit is an Old Indo-Aryan language. It is an archaic form of Sanskrit, an early descendant of Proto-Indo-Iranian. It is closely related to Avestan, the oldest preserved Iranian language.

From about the 4th century BC, in the classical period of Iron Age Ancient India, Vedic Sanskrit gave way to Classical Sanskrit as defined by the grammar of Pāṇini.

[Virtuous]

and some Neolithic influence


Ok so according to my troll Maths the first Maltese people were Neolithic so if

Neolithic=Aryan and Me=Neolithic

Ans:Me=Aryan.

Problem Solved,problem Nordics?


http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/096/044/trollface.jpg?1296494117

[Bronze]

According to wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_Sanskrit

Vedic Sanskrit is an Old Indo-Aryan language. It is an archaic form of Sanskrit, an early descendant of Proto-Indo-Iranian. It is closely related to Avestan, the oldest preserved Iranian language.

From about the 4th century BC, in the classical period of Iron Age Ancient India, Vedic Sanskrit gave way to Classical Sanskrit as defined by the grammar of Pāṇini.

You are misinterpreting that, Avestan is the oldest iranian language, but Vedic Sanskrit is not an iranian language, it belongs to a different and separate branch.

And if you look up the age of these languages, you will see that Vedic Sanskrit is without a doubt older than Avestan.

Proto-indo-iranian is another thing entirely and no known population in the world has been found that speaks that language, its extinct and we do not know in which region of the world it was spoken.

[StonyArabia]

proto-indo-iranian homeland is probably the Caucasus or Central Asia.

[Rereg]

proto-indo-iranian homeland is probably the Caucasus or Central Asia.

Proto-Iranians were descendants of "Andronovo culture" so probably their first homeland was in Central Asia.

[Bronze]

proto-indo-iranian homeland is probably the Caucasus or Central Asia.

Yeah probably, but it hasnt been proven yet though, to bad that the mongol and turkic invasions of central asia has made the answer less obvious

[StonyArabia]

Yeah probably, but it hasnt been proven yet though, to bad that the mongol and turkic invasions of central asia has made the answer less obvious

True but before the Turkic and Mongol invasion Central Asia seemed to be the homeland of the proto-Indo-Iranians, but others also speculate the Caucasus however since there is almost no Iranian tongues spoken it's safe to assume Central Asia is indeed their homeland. Iranian tongues were spoken and inhabited by such people till the 13th century.

[Benacer]

North Indians, Pashtuns and some Persians.

[The Lawspeaker]

Paki's.

[StonyArabia]

Paki's.

On a related note the word Paki means "Pure" and thus Pakistan means "Land of the Pure".

[ChocolateFace]

Albanians

[Capricornus]

Albanians
:thumbs up

[Oghurkhan]

striclty looking the Ukrainians and Poles are

[safinator]

striclty looking NW Russians

Fixed

[finþaų]

Certain North Slavic populations. North Germanics seem to have a (much) greater Paleo-European (Uralic?) substrate.

Modern-day Italics, Hellenics, Celts, Indo-Iranians and Iberians f.e. do not seem to have considerable amounts of Aryan (Indo-European) genes, being of very predominantly Indo-Europeanized native ancestry.

[Midori]

Gypsies

[Peyrol]

Hazara, Tajiks, Nouristani and Pashtun.

[Bari]

Iranians and Afghans.

[finþaų]

Iranians and Afghans.

They are perhaps the purest Indo-Aryans, but I think "Aryan" in this context is supposed to mean "Proto-Indo-European".

[Peyrol]

They are perhaps the purest Indo-Aryans, but I think "Aryan" in this context is supposed to mean "Proto-Indo-European".

Then, baltic people and some isolated slaophonic (mostly russian and bielorussian) populations.

Here we're "polluted" of neolithic, etrurian and nuragic pre indoeuropean blood.

[sevruk]

Who are the purest Aryans?
obviously these guys:
http://b0.imgsrc.ru/h/haeldar/6328666Tce.jpg
http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/g/u/gunter_spb/Bronebanda.jpg
http://b0.imgsrc.ru/h/haeldar/6328662eZT.jpg
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/ingwar_lj/11031373/656756/original.jpg
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg594/scaled.php?server=594&filename=72013261264400528qq.jpg&res=medium
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[ChildOfTheJin]

The purest are the Lurs, especially the Feili (rebel) ones. Then it's the Kurds. I read it in a book called "strange lands and friendly people" where an American visits the Middle East and this is the exact thing he wrote "Today, the purest to the original Aryan stock are the Kurds and Lurs. And out of them two, the Lurs are probably the purest."

I think it is because of the tribal mentality we have had for thousands of years, people weren't allowed to marry outside their tribes. Luckily today we have had more freedom to choose.

You guys are showing no sources, it's like the Nazis are rising again

[Mans not hot]

Kurdwarrior and Aherne tribes.

[ChildOfTheJin]

Kurdwarrior and Aherne tribes.

???

[finþaų]

The purest are the Lurs, especially the Feili (rebel) ones. Then it's the Kurds. I read it in a book called "strange lands and friendly people" where an American visits the Middle East and this is the exact thing he wrote "Today, the purest to the original Aryan stock are the Kurds and Lurs. And out of them two, the Lurs are probably the purest."

I think it is because of the tribal mentality we have had for thousands of years, people weren't allowed to marry outside their tribes. Luckily today we have had more freedom to choose.

You guys are showing no sources, it's like the Nazis are rising again
The most probable Indo-European expansion theory places the Urheimat in Central East Europe. Central East Europe also has the greatest Indo-European linguistic divergence. It is quite simple, really.

Kurds are pred. native West Asian farmers, not Indo-Europeans. They are quite pure Indo-Aryans though.

[ChildOfTheJin]

The most probable Indo-European expansion theory places the Urheimat in Central East Europe. Central East Europe also has the greatest Indo-European linguistic divergence. It is quite simple, really.

Kurds are pred. native West Asian farmers, not Indo-Europeans. They are quite pure Indo-Aryans though.

I always thought of the term " indo European" to be associated with languages which Kurdish seems to be a part of.

But if it isn't, what is the difference between indo European and indo aryan?

[StonyArabia]

Hazara, Tajiks, Nouristani and Pashtun.

Hazaras are Mongol fathers/Persian mother byproducts. There Y lineage indicates Mongol origins, but the mtDNA seems to indicate local Iranian ancestry which fits with the legends of the Hazara themselves.

[finþaų]

I always thought of the term " indo European" to be associated with languages which Kurdish seems to be a part of.

But if it isn't, what is the difference between indo European and indo aryan?

Indo-Aryan is an Indo-European subfamily. It includes Iranic languages (Ossetian, Iranian, Kurdish et cetera) and Indic languages (Hindi and Sanskrit f.e.). Indo-European is a huge language family that encompasses Indo-Aryan, Germanic, Balto-Slavic, Armenian, Albanian, Hellenic, Celtic, Italic and many attested extinct branches (Anatolian, Tocharian f.e.).

Indo-European languages expanded from Central East Europe according to the most viable hypothesis, splitting up into several branches and Indo-Europeanizing local populations in many parts of Eurasia.

[Incel King]

If you meant White/European then British/Irish people are purest.

[finþaų]

If you meant White/European then British/Irish people are purest.

Brits tend to score South West Asian, a clearly non-European (in the contemporary sense) component. The most European (the group with the greatest amount of Paleo-European genes) would be Finnics.

Brits are probably the "whitest" though, as they defined the concept as it is used today.

[Pecheneg]

Hazara, Tajiks, Nouristani and Pashtun.

Yea Hazaras are pure Aryans..

http://i48.tinypic.com/2rh4pxg.png
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http://i47.tinypic.com/34il6j8.jpg
http://i45.tinypic.com/w2ktie.jpg



and Genghis Khan was the purest Aryan ever..
http://i48.tinypic.com/3038y8m.jpg

[Pallantides]

The most European (the group with the greatest amount of Paleo-European genes) would be Finnics.


What about Saami, they are more 'North European Mesolithic'(as MDLP calls it) than Finns, or do you count them also as Finnic?


Top10 for the 'North European Mesolithic'* component

Braña1 80.9%
Braña 2 80%
Saami 76.4%
Finnish-North 37.3%
Finnish-South 30.1%*
Vepsa 24.1%
Finnish 23.6%
Karelian 23.2%
Inkeri 22.7%
Gok4 12.1%
Russian_North 10.5%


*The 'North European Mesolithic' component is based on the two Mesolithic samples from the La Braña in Northern Spain.

*Finnish-South is actually samples from Helsinki I believe and so most likely have ancestry from here and there inside Finland.

[Marbeor]

haha the jews, is this some kind of joke? xDxD it made me laugh anyway.

But i think that no european nation is truely "aryan". Every nation has distant genes. The slav countries have earasian influence, the scandinavians have the influence of the Sami, the Medittereaneans are closest to the sahara and so on.