Is religion essential for effective ethno-nationalism?

[Skandi]

Do you think that there needs to be a religious element to any resurgence of nationalism in Europe? If you think that a religion is required to save the European people could you state which one and why it is better placed than the others to do so.


I would say that religion does have a tendency to bring people together under a common banner and of course has been used very successfully in the past to control the masses. But I would not like to be given the task of trying to turn any of the present religions into a nationalistic force. But it obviously can be done, look at Israel they have certainly used their religion to create a nationalistic state.

[Æmeric]

A religious element doesn't hurt. Calvinist defined the United Provinces & the Netherlands. In Ireland Catholicism was/is an important part of Irish identity. Catholicism is also an important part of the Quebecois indentity. Of course until recently there were no other Catholic groups in either Ireland or Quebec. In order for religion to be important in ethno-nationalism, the ethnic group must be associated with a sect that it's rivals for living space & political influence do not belong to. For example the Afrikaner Churches in South Africa.

And let us not forget the Jews.;)

[SwordoftheVistula]

It's not necessary, but it can be a help, especially when trying to bring those of lower intellect in line

[Stormraaf]

A religious element doesn't hurt.
It hurts when an ethno-nationalist group excludes one of their kin for not holding the same religious views. The degree to which Christianity is integrated with Afrikaner culture is a bit too overbearing, and I've found it to be a divisive issue amongst people who would otherwise share the same views on ethno-cultural preservation.


In order for religion to be important in ethno-nationalism, the ethnic group must be associated with a sect that it's rivals for living space & political influence do not belong to. For example the Afrikaner Churches in South Africa.
The Afrikaner Church I've been associated with in the past did in no way promote ethno-nationalist awareness, rather the opposite. I'm also a bit sceptic as to the direction these churches will take now that freshly conditioned pastors from universities are replacing the older ones.

As for religious ideas favourable to ethno-nationalism, I personally like the fifth of the Nine Charges of Odinistic conduct:

To suffer no evil to go unremedied and to fight against the enemies of family, nation, race and faith: my foes will I fight in the field nor be burnt in my house.

[Æmeric]

The Afrikaner Church I've been associated with in the past did in no way promote ethno-nationalist awareness, rather the opposite. I'm also a bit sceptic as to the direction these churches will take now that freshly conditioned pastors from universities are replacing the older ones.

But wouldn't you agree that in the past the various Afrikaner Churches - I think there were 2 or maybe 3 but all of Calvinist theology - played an important part in shaping & preserving the Afrikaner character in the face of British colonialisn? As for the churches changing direction (becoming more liberla, piliticfally correct etc..) that is something that has happened to all mainstream or established churches in the 20th century. Liberals take over seminaries & the ministers all become indoctrinated in new-age foolishness like multiracialism, universalism to a ridiculous extent, the gay agenda. Maybe the erosion of Afrikaner Calvinism (because of liberal theology) as a bulwark against the rest of the world & in supporting apartheid played a part in the betrayal by De Klerk & others in turning South Africa over to the Bantus & the ANC.

[The Dragonslayer]

I think it's a major asset. I believe it does bring people today. It also teaches morality. Many people have found themselves involved in a lot of destructive behavior because they aren't taught right from wrong.

[Stormraaf]

But wouldn't you agree that in the past the various Afrikaner Churches - I think there were 2 or maybe 3 but all of Calvinist theology - played an important part in shaping & preserving the Afrikaner character in the face of British colonialisn?
Shaping, most definitely, but I'm not so sure about preserving. Nothing from our history have me convinced that my ancestors would have been any less protective of their identity and kinsfolk had religion been absent from their minds. Of course, if you believe that Afrikaner culture just wouldn't be Afrikaner culture without Calvinism, as many Afrikaners themselves would, your argument is spot on. But what am I then?


Many people have found themselves involved in a lot of destructive behavior because they aren't taught right from wrong.
I wouldn't put too much faith in someone who needs to adhere to a religion to know right from wrong.

[Æmeric]

I think all societies/cultures are shaped by their religious heritage regardless if the comtemporary members of that society are largely agnostic or atheistic. As for whether Calvinism helped preserve the Volk who became the Afrikaners, lets make a comparison to Latin America. Where Catholicism reigned supreme there was miscegenation on a large scale. If the Dutch settlers had been Catholic would they have had the same attitudes towards race relations?

One thing to remember about religious heritage is that before modern communications & transport (radio,television, automobiles) attending the local church was the major way of socializing. It was the core of society in rural communities. Society has changed greatly within the last 100-years & as I mentioned in another thread, sports seem to have taken over the role that religion use to play in our lives.

[Lenny]

if you believe that Afrikaner culture just wouldn't be Afrikaner culture without Calvinism, as many Afrikaners themselves would, your argument is spot on. But what am I then?

Stormraaf
Captain Procrastination

Join Date: Nov 2008
Meta-Ethnicity: Germanic
Ethnicity: Afrikaner
Country: South Africa
Location: Stellenbosch
Gender: Male
Religion: atheistYou are a Boer/Afrikaner, a group which is of fiercely Protestant-Calvinist background. There is no conflict there just because you are secular.

Only if one actively converts to a blatantly alien religion (say, Islam): That is when he has put one foot outside of Afrikanerdom, imo. Simply being secular does not do it.

[Lenny]

Nothing from our history have me convinced that my ancestors would have been any less protective of their identity and kinsfolk had religion been absent from their minds..Some religions are "national" (as the reformed Dutch churches), some are "universal" (as in Islam and Roman Catholicism); It seems clear that a self-reinforcing national-religion/church is better for group cohesion than a universal religion.



had religion been absent from their minds.In the absence of actual religions, various imposter religions spring up, humanism, marxism, hedonism, self-worship, etc. and eventually nihilism.

[Johnny Bravo]

Some religions are "national" (as the reformed Dutch churches), some are "universal" (as in Islam and Roman Catholicism); It seems clear that a self-reinforcing national-religion/church is better for group cohesion than a universal religion.

You mean like the various Prot churches who will recruit new sheep from Africa in order to boost their ranks?


In the absence of actual religions, various imposter religions spring up, humanism, marxism, hedonism, self-worship, etc. and eventually nihilism.

As Russian Philosopher would say, nihilism is only a gateway to a Dionysian life-affirming way of life. :D Much unlike the Slave Morality of Christianity. Being a servant to a celestial Jew just doesn't cut it. :ranger:

[Johnny Bravo]

It's not necessary, but it can be a help, especially when trying to bring those of lower intellect in line

In a nutshell...

It's still a fool's errand IMO.

[Arrow Cross]

It is. Christianity is now rooted in the folk spirit of the European peoples, more than a thousand years can't be undone, and shouldn't be.

However, just like in politics, a great reformation is much needed in the ranks of the European churches, much decadent, liberal, and I dare say satanic poison has found its way in.

[Johnny Bravo]

It is. Christianity is now rooted in the folk spirit of the European peoples, more than a thousand years can't be undone, and shouldn't be.

As will Islam in a few decades or centuries.

The solution to Europe's problems is not to pray more to Semitic deities.

[Arrow Cross]

As will Islam in a few decades or centuries.

The solution to Europe's problems is not to pray more to Semitic deities.
We'll see about that. ;)

[DarkZarathustra]

It is enthusiasm that essential for any religion or ideology. To me whatever could encourage and inspirite for action is good.

[DarkZarathustra]

As Russian Philosopher would say, nihilism is only a gateway to a Dionysian life-affirming way of life. :D Much unlike the Slave Morality of Christianity. Being a servant to a celestial Jew just doesn't cut it. :ranger:
Right! :D

You're the only person who understand me without long, tedious explaination's. :thumbs up

...But we should (or have to) treat Christianity softly and with patience.

[Lenny]

The solution to Europe's problems is not to pray more to ... deities.One thing that is surely not the solution, is to become hardline God-hating nihilist-atheists who believe in NOTHING but stone and bone. :shocked:

[Johnny Bravo]

One thing that is surely not the solution, is to become hardline God-hating nihilist-atheists who believe in NOTHING but stone and bone. :shocked:

I don't hate YHWH, I don't believe in him/her. :coffee:

Besides, I already explained that nihilism is necessarily only a transitional stage.

[SwordoftheVistula]

One thing that is surely not the solution, is to become hardline God-hating nihilist-atheists who believe in NOTHING but stone and bone. :shocked:

Sticks and stones will break their bones but holy words will never hurt them :D