UN mediator proposes the name Upper Macedonia

[morski]

Dnevnik: UN mediator proposes the name Upper Macedonia

13 March 2012 | 11:38 | FOCUS News Agency

Skopje. UN mediator in the Greek-Macedonian name dispute, Matthew Nimetz, is ready with a new proposal envisaging the name issue to be solved at different stages, writes Macedonian Dnevnik daily.
According to the newspaper, Nimetz’s new proposal envisages for Macedonia to get an invitation for NATO membership during the Chicago summit with the name Upper Macedonia, while the name dispute to be finally solved stage by stage.
The proposal was made during UN mediator’s visit to Athens.
The only problem is whether the proposal would be accepted by New Democracy leader Antonis Samaras, who is expected to win the next parliamentary elections in Greece.
http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?id=n273157

Sounds familiar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Upper_Volta).:D

[Queen B]

A hole in the water, I 'd say, and a stupid,useless and provocative move.

This is not a solution to the name dispute.

Finding a temporary name just for the entrance of FYROM to Nato is useless. They can enter with that name, and then change is to Macedonia. Just like what would happen with the name Fyrom as well.

Nato agreed that in order to enter Nato, they have to resolve the name issue.

And that's what is should be done.

[Romanion]

Matthew Nimetz must have the best job in the world at the moment, he gets paid to watch two countries bicker, and when it is time for him to contribute, he puts "upper" in front of Macedonia, laughs, gets paid, and goes home.

[The Lawspeaker]

Matthew Nimetz must have the best job in the world at the moment, he gets paid to watch two countries bicker, and when it is time for him to contribute, he puts "upper" in front of Macedonia, laughs, gets paid, and goes home.
I want his job. :thumbs up

I don't see what the fuzz is about anyway. Look at us and Belgium:

We have three Brabants: North (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Brabant), South (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flemish_Brabant) and Walloon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walloon_Brabant).
Two Limburgs: Dutch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limburg_%28Netherlands%29) and Belgian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limburg_%28Belgium%29).
A part of Zealand Province is known as Zealandic Flanders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeeuws-Vlaanderen) eventhough it's Dutch and no one gives a toss. The two Limburgs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limburg_mijn_Vaderland) actually share the same anthem.

And when it comes to Flanders there is also a French Flanders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Flanders).

[morski]

I want his job. :thumbs up

I don't see what the fuzz is about anyway. Look at us and Belgium:

We have three Brabants: North (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Brabant), South (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flemish_Brabant) and Walloon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walloon_Brabant).
Two Limburgs: Dutch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limburg_%28Netherlands%29) and Belgian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limburg_%28Belgium%29).
A part of Zealand Province is known as Zealandic Flanders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeeuws-Vlaanderen) eventhough it's Dutch and no one gives a toss. The two Limburgs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limburg_mijn_Vaderland) actually share the same anthem.

And when it comes to Flanders there is also a French Flanders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Flanders).

Yeah, but Belgians don't try to claim the whole common history for themsleves alone, nor try to disassociate from the Dutch at all costs.

[The Lawspeaker]

Yeah, but Belgians don't try to claim the whole common history for themsleves alone, nor try to disassociate from the Dutch at all costs.
That's because we are brother nations. One people under two roofs but even the Dutch and Belgians had their little quarrels.

[Odoacer]

How about Lower Kosovo? :laugh:

[morski]

That's because we are brother nations. One people under two roofs but even the Dutch and Belgians had their little quarrels.

That should be the case with Bulgarians and FYROMians but the latter suffer from acute form of the Stockholm syndrome and love the Serbs now.:eek:

[Crn Volk]

That should be the case with Bulgarians and FYROMians but the latter suffer from acute form of the Stockholm syndrome and love the Serbs now.:eek:

Maybe because you have occupied us a number of times and tried to forceably bulgarize us, we don't like you.

The bulgarian attrocities committed in Macedonia are still fresh in our memories...

http://www.cybermacedonia.com/vatasa.html

[Radojica]

That should be the case with Bulgarians and FYROMians but the latter suffer from acute form of the Stockholm syndrome and love the Serbs now.:eek:

Now? As far as I know, they always liked Serbs more than Bulgarians...

[morski]

Maybe because you have occupied us a number of times and tried to forceably bulgarize us, we don't like you.

The bulgarian attrocities committed in Macedonia are still fresh in our memories...

http://www.cybermacedonia.com/vatasa.html

Complete nonsense and you know it.


The firend of the Serbs Henri Pozzi writes with disbelief:


My guide, I will not give his name, took me to a house where I found a mother nursing a little girl of ten or twelve years of age. I learned that this child, having been surprised talking Bulgarian with one of her little friends, had been bound to a bench before the class, and whipped until the blood came. Her back, her hips, and her thighs were covered by great sores. She could hardly walk, and she cried with pain when she sat down. They had warned her, however, that if she missed school or arrived late the punishment would be renewed.

"Do you employ corporal punishment in your schools?" I asked Jovanovitch that same evening at the Grand Cafe. "Never!" he replied. "Do you take us for Germans ? "

" Sir," the father of the wounded child had said to me when I was getting ready to leave, "you see how they treat our children ! What they do to our children they do to us all. A Macedonian woman who enters a police station or a gendarmerie is received as a prostitute ; a Macedonian merchant who gives credit to a Serb official will never be paid, and if he demands payment he is asking for ruin ; our peasants succumb under the burden of taxes and if they are one day late in paying them, they are seized and thrown out of their homes. The shepherds who go to the mountains are allowed to take only one day's provision with them ; and one of them must come for provisions each morning and give an account to the police of what he has seen, what he has heard, and what he and his companions are going to do during the day. Our letters are opened, our children questioned at school on what takes place in their homes ; we cannot even have the right to go from one village to another without permission. But never have our people been more faithful to Macedonia! When she finally falls on the Serbs our vengeance will be as pitiless as the justice of God."

"What that man told you," said a Frenchman to me (one whom a long stay in Macedonia had familiarised with things), "is, unfortunately, the truth. There is not a word you can strike out. Nothing can give you an idea of the atrocious regime inflicted by the Serb administration on the Macedonian populations. I knew the bashi-bazouks. They were lambs compared with the Serbs ! "

The father of the little girl took me through the storm to the end of the Turkish city on the other side of the Vardar. He took me to the home of some people whose address had been given me at the French consulate by one of the guests staying there.

"My God, sir," said a woman to me as we went in, "we are lost if anyone has seen you enter."

Her husband and she looked at me curiously in the light of a flickering lamp on the corner of the table. They were puzzled by this "Franski" who did not fear the police. They plied me with questions. "Are you going to Veles? To Chtip? To Negotin? To Bitolj? You will be well received because the Serbs fear the French, but you will see nothing."


"If it were known," they had said to me, "what takes place in our prisons, a cry of horror would resound all over Europe. The offices of police magistrates are torture chambers. The prisons are hells of suffering and ignominy. Thousands of human beings, men and women, even children, are tormented there and suffer without hope. Political prisoners are packed into cells too small to permit of any movement, and there they are left for weeks in an unbreathable atmosphere with their own mess rising up to their ankles. They take them out only to beat them to death or to subject them to ignominious outrages. The Valaque abomination, for which the Turks have been so much reproached, is a favourite resort when all else has failed to make the suspects confess. Even old men and women are subjected to it."

The Serbian language is enforced in the schools, yet at home the children speak to their parents in Bulgarian, for their parents know no other. Yet which language moulds their souls, and their secret personality? Which of the two languages do they employ when they reflect, when they speak to themselves? That of the mothers, or that of the schoolmasters?

All the Macedonians have had to Serbianise their names by ending them with "itch" instead of "off." From one end of the country to the other all traces of "Macedonianism" have disappeared; store-signs, menus, inscriptions on tombs, all are in Serbian. You will not find a paper, a magazine, a book, a pamphlet, or a single inscription in the Bulgarian language throughout all Macedonia. And yet fifteen years ago it was the only language spoken there. The swiftness of this change may be due to enthusiasm for Serbia, but it may not be entirely uninfluenced by the fact that the smallest letter in Bulgarian may cost its writer anything from six months to five years in prison, and a dose of cudgel blows before, during, and after.


I saw cemeteries at Chtip, at Krivolak, at Veles, at Kratovo and at Ochrida in which all the Macedonian funeral monuments had been pillaged, the names and the inscriptions in the Bulgarian language effaced, and all the tombstones torn out and shattered. These places of rest now resemble demolition works.

http://www.picvalley.net/u/1836/1625623691676147.JPG


Near the village of Orasac, between Kumanovo and Novoselo, I saw a peasant attached to a tree with his trousers down. His face, his back, and his belly were covered with blood. Three gendarmes and a non-commissioned officer stood round him. A fourth gendarme came out of a house. He was carrying a cat in a sack. They tied the cat above the peasant's knees, and then pulled his trousers up over the furious cat. All the village, men, women and children, looked on in silence. The man, his flesh torn by the enraged beast, screamed in agony. "


In 1915 when the armies of Belgrade retreated beaten towards Albania, after having occupied Macedonia for two years, the Macedonians fell upon the wounded and stragglers. There were atrocious reprisals. I was one of those who denounced them to the world. To-day, knowing what I know, seeing what I have seen, I should no longer have the force to condemn them.

In 1918, when she became a Serbian province, Macedonia had more than 700 churches; she also possessed 86 colleges or secondary schools, with 2,800 students and 460 professors ; 556 primary schools with 33,000 scholars and 850 teachers. The convents and churches contained inestimable treasures--the fruits of a thousand years of Mace- donian culture and thought.

The churches, monasteries and schools have been confiscated, all the priests, all the teachers have been expelled, imprisoned, or deported into Old Serbia. The churches and monasteries, which even the Turks themselves had respected, have been pillaged from top to bottom.

At Skoplje, at Chtip, at Veles, in twenty villages around these cities, in the region of Ochrida and of Guevgueli, I found Serb masters in the schools and Serb priests in the churches. When I asked the latter what had become of such and such a precious ikon, statue or wainscoting, the existence of which had been known to me in advance, they replied with-out exception, "They have sent them to Belgrade."

In all the cemeteries and churches of annexed Macedonia, Belgrade has removed all the Bulgarian inscriptions from the altars, from the walls and from the tombs. In many cases they have emptied the tombs and the crypts of their contents.


At Skoplje, for example, more than forty corpses were torn from the Church of Saint- Dimitri.

" What have they done with them? " I asked Mr. Jovanovitch's assistant who was showing me the church.

"They heaved them into the Vardar," he replied.

At Veles, the Bulgarian officers who fell in the course of the last battles of the Franco- Serb offensive of September, 1918, had been interred in the old Church of Saint- Pantaleimon. Their remains were exhumed by the Serbs and cast on to the rubbish heap.


Hastily, all that had been said to me at Zagreb, at Sofia, at Belgrade, about the procedure of interrogation in the Serb prisons came back to me. I remembered the stories I had heard of noses and ears slashed, palms of the hands and balls of the feet beaten, points of the breast ripped out with pincers, the genital parts twisted, red-hot irons applied to the loins and under the feet.


"Do you intend to visit Kratovo?" he asked. "When you get there go and see Lieutenant Mina. He's a veteran of the armies of King Peter who dared go all alone to a region infested with revolutionaries and traitors. A real Serb ! He had a score of his old comrades at Kratovo. He installed them on the abandoned lands and in the houses. M. Jovanovitch didn't tell you the story of the marriages, did he? Ah! you must hear it. It's one of the things for which His Majesty complimented Mina.

"Mina and his bachelor comrades at Kratovo could find no one to marry, because the women would not have a Serb. But that wasn't for long! One Sunday, Mina assembled the village and told his comrades to choose a girl each. They took eleven women whose husbands had fled to Bulgaria, and who cried that they were already married.

" ‘ I annul your marriage !’ said Mina. They refused. So Mina had them tied to benches. They were whipped by their future husbands until they could cry no longer. Then Mina warned them that they would do it again the following Sunday, and each Sunday after, until they gave in.

" For three Sundays Mina thrashed them thus, and then they said ‘Yes.’ Mina had a minister come from Serbia, and they were married."

I met one of the "re-married" women. She was playing on the doorstep with the son of her Serb husband, a fine lad of three or four years of age. She showed such a tenderness for him that I, knowing the story from my guide, was stupefied.

In answer to my question she replied : "I want my son to love me so much that it will be I, living or dead, who aims his rifle on the day of our liberation."
http://www.hic.hr/books/blackhand/bulgarian.htm

I can go on and on with this. Macedonians are Yugoslav mutts, colonized, serbianized Bulgarians speaking Serbo-Bulgarian pidgin infected by Serb impudence and self-aggrandisment tendencies. The process of colonization was bloody and inhumane. And their new fyroMacednoian identity is basically built mainly on hatred for anything Bulgarian, self-hatred.

[Europa]

Complete nonsense and you know it.


The firend of the Serbs Henri Pozzi writes with disbelief:







http://www.picvalley.net/u/1836/1625623691676147.JPG










http://www.hic.hr/books/blackhand/bulgarian.htm

I can go on and on with this. Macedonians are Yugoslav mutts, colonized, serbianized Bulgarians speaking Serbo-Bulgarian pidgin infected by Serb impudence and self-aggrandisment tendencies. The process of colonization was bloody and inhumane. And their new fyroMacednoian identity is basically built mainly on hatred for anything Bulgarian, self-hatred.

Now,that was a good article...:thumbs up:coffee:

[morski]

The execution of the 12 young men from the village of Vatasa, near Kavadarci was carried out by the Bulgarian fascist army on 16 June, 1943.
Nevena Hadijordanova, the sister of the executed Vaso lived to tell this story. She survived together with three other girlfriends from the village.

http://www.cybermacedonia.com/vatasa.html

Those were communist partisans. We had such in Bulgaria proper at the time as well (much more than in Macedonia actually) and they were dealt with in exactly the same manner. So that proves nothing.

[Crn Volk]

http://www.cybermacedonia.com/vatasa.html

Those were communist partisans. We had such in Bulgaria proper at the time as well (much more than in Macedonia actually) and they were dealt with in exactly the same manner. So that proves nothing.

Yes, but why do Macedonians still hate Bulgars today? And before you start with blaming the Serbs, bare in mind we have been independent for over 20 years now....

[morski]

Yes, but why do Macedonians still hate Bulgars today? And before you start with blaming the Serbs, bare in mind we have been independent for over 20 years now....

Cause FYROM is an Orwellian nightmare and a Serbo-Communist reservation, that's why.:eek:

[Europa]

Yes, but why do Macedonians still hate Bulgars today? And before you start with blaming the Serbs, bare in mind we have been independent for over 20 years now....

20 years of independence....wow an old country indeed:DIf it wasn't Tito there wouldn't be Macedonia.

[пустиняк]

Now? As far as I know, they always liked Serbs more than Bulgarians...

Always yeah - for their long period of existence from 1945 to now ;D

[Crn Volk]

20 years of independence....wow an old country indeed:DIf it wasn't Tito there wouldn't be Macedonia.

If it wasn't for the Ottoman Porte there would be no Bulgarian Exarchate, and therefore no Bulgarian nation....ajde b'lgaria nad vsichko :D

[morski]

If it wasn't for the Ottoman Porte there would be no Bulgarian Exarchate, and therefore no Bulgarian nation....ajde b'lgaria nad vsichko :D

That's somewhat true. But it was won by the colective effort of all Bulgarians from Ohrid to Odesa.

[Albion]

Macedonia should join Bulgaria in a loose federation. Internationally it'd just be called "Bulgaria" but internally Macedonia could have a large degree of autonomy like Scotland does here and it could take control of Pirin Macedonia too.
Macedonia is struggling along on its own, joining the relatives in Bulgaria whether they're the same or just similar would be better in the long run.

[Trun]

Now? As far as I know, they always liked Serbs more than Bulgarians...

gzNFGJQXNvY

They loved Serbs so much that they threw the wine and cheese away in anger when Serbs comed to free them in the Balkan war.

[Europa]

Macedonia should join Bulgaria in a loose federation. Internationally it'd just be called "Bulgaria" but internally Macedonia could have a large degree of autonomy like Scotland does here and it could take control of Pirin Macedonia too.
Macedonia is struggling along on its own, joining the relatives in Bulgaria whether they're the same or just similar would be better in the long run.

Maybe,but I'm afraid that once they get access to the EU and some other goodies they'll turn against us(if they ever decide to "join" Bulgaria).In fact I highly doubt that the Macedonians will ever stop whining and stealing someone else's history as well as claiming their genes.

[Crn Volk]

Macedonia should join Bulgaria in a loose federation. Internationally it'd just be called "Bulgaria" but internally Macedonia could have a large degree of autonomy like Scotland does here and it could take control of Pirin Macedonia too.
Macedonia is struggling along on its own, joining the relatives in Bulgaria whether they're the same or just similar would be better in the long run.

Last I heard Scotland wanted to leave the UK

[Albion]

Last I heard Scotland wanted to leave the UK

It does. Upon failing that they are asking for more autonomy and the unionists are ready to bribe them with it. Meanwhile everyone has forgotten about English devolution and the West Lothian commission which is supposed to be reporting back soon... Nothing will become of it, England will be neglected like usual.

[Zolbu]

Yes, but why do Macedonians still hate Bulgars today?
As still the Bulgars are the closest genetically relatives of the Macedonians (link) (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml) with virtually the same language and common history I have to admit I have no slightest idea.



And before you start with blaming the Serbs, bare in mind we have been independent for over 20 years now....
As far as I know the problem didn't come from the serbs so much but from the comunist ideology that has initiated the creation of artificial "nations" here and there (not only on Balkans) for dumb unknown comunist goals.

Wikipedia article about the macedonian "language" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_language)


Macedonian dialects form a continuum with Bulgarian dialects; together in turn they form a broader continuum with Serbo-Croatian through the transitional Torlakian dialects. The name of the Macedonian language is a matter of political controversy in Greece[12] as is its distinctiveness in Bulgaria.[13][14]


Its [macedonian] closest relative is Bulgarian,[15] with which it has a high degree of mutual intelligibility.[14] Prior to their codification in 1945, Macedonian dialects were for the most part classified as Bulgarian[16][17][18] and some linguists consider them still as such, but this view is politically controversial.

Chat li si?:)

[Incal]

I want his job. :thumbs up

I don't see what the fuzz is about anyway. Look at us and Belgium:

We have three Brabants: North (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Brabant), South (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flemish_Brabant) and Walloon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walloon_Brabant).
Two Limburgs: Dutch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limburg_%28Netherlands%29) and Belgian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limburg_%28Belgium%29).
A part of Zealand Province is known as Zealandic Flanders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeeuws-Vlaanderen) eventhough it's Dutch and no one gives a toss. The two Limburgs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limburg_mijn_Vaderland) actually share the same anthem.

And when it comes to Flanders there is also a French Flanders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Flanders).


Well, well, you are talking about people who can sit and have a civil and educated negotation on a table. But we are talking about the balkans here :D