How should "East Europe" be defined?

[riverman]

Should "Eastern Europe be defined geographically, or by religion as some suggest, or ethnically, or other...vote on the poll, discuss. :thumb001:

[Mercury]

By ethnicity that should also include religion, imo. Orthodox faith is ingrained within East European culture and it's inseparable.

[The Ripper]

The division of East and West within Europe stems from the Roman Empire being divided into East and West, and later the Great Schism, which saw two Christendoms emerge from each half from the (former) Roman Empire, which competed bloodily for the souls of Europe. This is the cultural definition.

[beaver]

When a Russian says "Europe" he means anything else but not Russia.

[The Ripper]

It's abit more complicated than that. Geographic distance from borders of Roman empire also played role.

If we only divide into East and West, it doesn't have to be any more complicated. That's what the cultural division is, always was, based on. Its where the very concept of a distinct East and West in Europe originates.


Btw, during the Schism, lands of current Lithuania, Latvia and old Prussia weren't even Chistian. That's why at least Lithuania doesn't have old universities, and books in Lithuanian language. I wonder if late coming of Christianity makes Lithuania somehow less Western...But different scenario probably would not have had impact of Iron curtain division.

Neither was Finland or Estonia, or the Scandinavian countries for that matter. Still, Eastern and Western Christianity conquered the pagan "no man's land" between them. Had we (Finland) fallen under Novgorod and Russia instead of Sweden, and remained under them for 700 years, we would be Orthodox and East European.

[Trun]

Geographical sense is the most important. According to it, there are 4 Eastern European countries - Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Moldova, the first three sharing East Slavic languages and Orthodox religion.

If we use poltical defition, we may include countries from the former Eastern Bloc there. But since Eastern Bloc no longer exists, I don't think this defition is valid anymore.

Religious defition is something that may be somehow more accurate. Since Orthodox religion influenced a lot the cultural traits in Orthodox countries, we may speak of it as "the foundation of the Eastern civilization". But still, that "Eastern civilization" is not equal to even the stretched defition of Eastern Europe, since Greece and Cyprus also a part of the Eastern civilization.

I think that term "Eastern civilization" should receive more attention. Between all European Orthodox countries (Belarus, Ukraine, Russia, Moldova, Romania, Bulgaria, FYROM, South Albania, Montenegro, Serbia, Greece, Cyprus, Georgia and Armenia), there are a lot of cultural and spiritual similarities because of the Byzantine influence.

[Waidewut]

When a Russian says "Europe" he means anything else but not Russia.

Belarus and Ukraine are also viewed as Europe, in this matter?
I don't believe this.

Edit: I have concerns whether Pribaltika is considered actual Europe, by Russians also.

[The Ripper]

Southern Scandinavia, actually half of Scandinavia was Christian accoding to a map I'm currently looking at. Or at least they were under the rule of Christian nobles.

Yeah, but then, also the Eastern shore of the Baltic shows clear signs of Christian influence. Christianity and Paganism existed side by side for a good while before the actual crusades. And while Scandinavians did begin to adopt Christianity, there is no doubt that at the time of the schism, Scandinavia's Christianity would have been mostly nominal.

[Waidewut]

Yeah, but then, also the Eastern shore of the Baltic shows clear signs of Christian influence. Christianity and Paganism existed side by side for a good while before the actual crusades. And while Scandinavians did begin to adopt Christianity, there is no doubt that at the time of the schism, Scandinavia's Christianity would have been mostly nominal.

Actually ancient Latgal tribe elders had become Orthodox already some time before the Northern crusades. I believe this wasn't enforced on them and it was their own will to strengthen trading ties with Novgorod.
This has left many church related old-Russian linguistic signs in Latvian language.


I've heard Russians considered Pribaltika as Western during Soviet period. You know,all the jealousy and "we gave them everything" bullshit.

I've read that Russian tourists in Lithuania say that you can feel Europe here. I suspect it's related to the fact there isn't so much smell of Communist era here anymore. Of course, Lithuania has it's rotten side, but tourists usually don't see it. It's different in Russian cities, I guess. But I'm not referring only to enviroment, ofc, but organisation, service and such.

Yeah, but the "Western" had the inner-USSR sense of the word.
I was just wondering what Russians think in the whole-Europe, sense of the word. Whether being ex-Soviet doesn't make us automatically more familiar in their eyes.

[beaver]

Belarus and Ukraine are also viewed as Europe, in this matter?
I don't believe this.
yeah its not Europe too (I mean perceveing). The Europe begins from Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia from usual Russian point of view. It doesnt matter that Russians consider themselves worse or something like, they are different

[riverman]

Geographical sense is the most important. According to it, there are 4 Eastern European countries - Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Moldova, the first three sharing East Slavic languages and Orthodox religion.

If we use poltical defition, we may include countries from the former Eastern Bloc there. But since Eastern Bloc no longer exists, I don't think this defition is valid anymore.

Religious defition is something that may be somehow more accurate. Since Orthodox religion influenced a lot the cultural traits in Orthodox countries, we may speak of it as "the foundation of the Eastern civilization". But still, that "Eastern civilization" is not equal to even the stretched defition of Eastern Europe, since Greece and Cyprus also a part of the Eastern civilization.

I think that term "Eastern civilization" should receive more attention. Between all European Orthodox countries (Belarus, Ukraine, Russia, Moldova, Romania, Bulgaria, FYROM, South Albania, Montenegro, Serbia, Greece, Cyprus, Georgia and Armenia), there are a lot of cultural and spiritual similarities because of the Byzantine influence.

That's interesting. As someone with Orthodox heritage myself, the religious denomination definition is intriguing, it sort of makes sense, too, because of the various Orthodox churches in that area, but pretty much absent from western Europe. The only thing is that there would probably have to be a sizable impact of the church on the cultures and countries, that concept might face opposition from people who think ethnicity is the main connection between neighboring countries.

[The Ripper]

Actually ancient Latgal tribe elders had become Orthodox already some time before the Northern crusades. I believe this wasn't enforced on them and it was their own will to strengthen trading ties with Novgorod.
This has left many church related old-Russian linguistic signs in Latvian language.

Yes, I've read about that. The (East) Karelians were also baptized into Orthodoxy (though much later), and Finland has had a small minority of Ortohodox Karelians since Swedish eastward expansion in the 1600s. Still today, we have two state churches: Lutheran and Orthodox, despite the Orthodox numbering less than 1%. Also most of our earliest Christian terminology is Slavic loan: Pappi (priest) risti (cross) pakana (pagan).

[Mary]

I vote geographically:

http://www.thew2o.net/events/freshwater/images/black_sea_basin.jpg

[beaver]

The border is defined by Orthodox believers and Protestants but Russians are also influenced by Protestantism - this explains our schizophrenic mood

[riverman]

I vote geographically:



I tend to agree with that concept.

[Arrow Cross]

In our day and age, it'd make little sense to define it any other than a political-social-economic way.

[Padre Organtino]

I vote geographically:

http://www.thew2o.net/events/freshwater/images/black_sea_basin.jpg

Darn, I'm Kakhetian. Almost made it:p

[Max]

yeah its not Europe too (I mean perceveing). The Europe begins from Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia from usual Russian point of view. It doesnt matter that Russians consider themselves worse or something like, they are different

It varies from person to person but most would perceive Finland, Germany, Czech Republic,Slovakia,Austria,Hungary to be the beginning of "Europe" or "Western Europe" while Poland, Baltic states would be somewhere in the middle. If your Russian friend says "Hey I just got back from a trip to Europe." Your first thought wouldn't be Eastern Europe.

[The Ripper]

It varies from person to person but most would perceive Finland, Germany, Czech Republic,Slovakia,Austria,Hungary to be the beginning of "Europe" or "Western Europe" while Poland, Baltic states would be somewhere in the middle. If your Russian friend says "Hey I just got back from a trip to Europe." Your first thought wouldn't be Eastern Europe.

Europe is always something that is far away. If we visit the Nordic or Baltic countries, no one says "I went to Europe". You have to go to Germany, France, Austria, Italy, places like that, to be in "Europe". And I notice its much the same all over.

[beaver]

Most people in russia know very little about baltic countries anyway
nothing to be more precize.

[Max]

How you percieve this or taht country depends on your knowledge level. Most people in russia know very little about baltic countries anyway. And they are not the most popular tourist destination.

Well the Baltic states are small so they are often overlooked

[beaver]

Actually those Russians who come to Lithuania as tourists often do so out of nostalgia (remembering childhood vacations in Lithuania).
I worked with Lithuanian physicists in Vilnius and in Kislovodsk in the common projects. We (Russians) lived with them and felt strong difference in the mentality.Lithuanians go to bed (about 10). Russians go to the town to search adventures :)

[Queen B]

I vote geographically.
Unlike North and South, the East and West have more meanings and many people mean different things when seperating Europe in East and West
East/Western cultoure
East/Western religion
East/Western politics
etc

[morski]

UN says Eastern Europe is:

Belarus
Bulgaria
Czech Republic
Hungary
Poland
Republic of Moldova
Romania
Russian Federation
Slovakia
Ukraine

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg

[Trun]

UN says Eastern Europe is:

Belarus
Bulgaria
Czech Republic
Hungary
Poland
Republic of Moldova
Romania
Russian Federation
Slovakia
Ukraine

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg

Argh, I hate that division. Reminds me of this:

http://www.imageintravel.com/Files/tumblr_kyt68xBL411qau028o1_500.jpg

And this:

http://www.moscow-russia-insiders-guide.com/Nastia/moscow-russia-winter-1.jpg

[riverman]

..........

[Gaztelu]

http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy66/Rijska/500px-Europe_political_chart_blank_svg2.png

[riverman]

http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy66/Rijska/500px-Europe_political_chart_blank_svg2.png


Interesting. It is subjective though.

[Gaztelu]

It is subjective though.

Discussions like these always are.

[Europa]

I vote geographically:

http://www.thew2o.net/events/freshwater/images/black_sea_basin.jpg

Yeah,all fresh water to Black sea maps should apply on the subject...This is retarded:eek:

[gold_fenix]

When i use the term East of Europe i use it as a cultural term rather, here we say Poland as East of Europe and however is rather a north central country, i use east of Europe as the countries beyond of Austria, Italy and Germany exept for Scandinavia and Greece, altought i know is a incorrect term

[riverman]

When i use the term East of Europe i use it as a cultural term rather, here we say Poland as East of Europe and however is rather a north central country, i use east of Europe as the countries beyond of Austria, Italy and Germany exept for Scandinavia and Greece, altought i know is a incorrect term

That's actually the way it's defined here, too, at least in my conversations. I think that's pretty standard.

[Loddfafner]

Experience of Communism is the key variable that overrides linguistic, religious, and geographical divides. Catholic Poland and Czechy are still Eastern, while Vienna and Helsinki, along with Slavic Carinthia are Western, although I realize that classic mitteleuropa is being reconstituted.

[Loddfafner]

If there is to be a poll, then the following countries should be included:

Syldavia
Borduria
Ruritania
Molvania

[PeacefulCaribbeanDutch]

It is a cultural and genetic divide, all you have to do is look at history, the areas that developed in Europe first, fall into western europe. Greece, Italy.. then come spain.. england germany.. ect. the last countries to develop in a modern manner untill they were conquered were the eastern ones and they practiced a different culture before this, making them different culturally.

Genetically there is some slavic drift or slavish features.., but in general it is a cultural and historical classification

[mihaitzateo]

UN says Eastern Europe is:

Belarus
Bulgaria
Czech Republic
Hungary
Poland
Republic of Moldova
Romania
Russian Federation
Slovakia
Ukraine

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Europe_subregion_map_UN_geoschme.svg

Czech Republic is much more developed than Austria at the moment.
I wish that we would have in Romania the prosperity that Czech Republic got.

[Mary]

Experience of Communism is the key variable that overrides linguistic, religious, and geographical divides. Catholic Poland and Czechy are still Eastern, while Vienna and Helsinki, along with Slavic Carinthia are Western, although I realize that classic mitteleuropa is being reconstituted.

That would assume that Communism was the same all over the East, which it wasn't.

[Mary]

Yeah,all fresh water to Black sea maps should apply on the subject...This is retarded:eek:

It's geography. Go back to school.

[Osprey]

Czech Republic is a Mongrel Nation. Crossed between Germans and Slavonics.
East of Germany, CR, Austria and Italy is East Europe.
Germany, Low Countries, Austria, Italy are Central Europe.
France, Holland, Spain and Portugal are Western European.
Britain is Ethnically Western, Geographically and Skin Tone Wise northern.
Scandinavia is Northern.
Finland and Baltic Areas As North Eastern.

[Harmonia]

East Europe should Be defined by culture, including religion and language, imo. Russia, Belarus and Ukraine is the most ''eastern European'' countries, though if we would also consider economics and politics, more countries would fall under 'eastern Europe' category.

[Mary]

East Europe should Be defined by culture, including religion and language, imo. Russia, Belarus and Ukraine is the most ''eastern European'' countries, though if we would also consider economics and politics, more countries would fall under 'eastern Europe' category.

How can you put Ukraine together with Russia and Belarus culturally?

Ukraine has at least the following cultures:

* Ukrainian
* Russian
* Crimean Tatar
* Ruthenian
* Rumanian

There is no such thing as a uniform Eastern European culture. What you can distinguish between is:

* Slavic culture
* Steppe culture
* Others

[Harmonia]

How can you put Ukraine together with Russia and Belarus culturally?
Those three countries has lots of cultural similarities. Language, religion, music, cuisine, etc.

[Mary]

Those three countries has lots of cultural similarities. Language, religion, music, cuisine, etc.

You mean like the similarities between the UK and India:

* Same language (English)
* Cuisine (curry, tea)
* Sports (cricket)
* Shared history

That's about how similar Russian and Belarus are with Ukraine.

[Gaztelu]

You mean like the similarities between the UK and India:

* Same language (English)
* Cuisine (curry, tea)
* Sports (cricket)
* Shared history

That's about how similar Russian and Belarus are with Ukraine.

I have never been that far east, although I imagine that Crimea and Saint Petersburg are very, very similar to one another.

[Mary]

nvm.

[Harmonia]

You mean like the similarities between the UK and India:

* Same language (English)
* Cuisine (curry, tea)
* Sports (cricket)
* Shared history

That's about how similar Russian and Belarus are with Ukraine.

English is not the only official language of India. Moreover, India and England doesn't share as much history as Russia and Ukraine does.

[Mary]

English is not the only official language of India. Moreover, India and England doesn't share as much history as Russia and Ukraine does.

Sure they do.

My point is that Russia and Ukraine are totally different cultures. You can't lump them together.

[mihaitzateo]

Barbariansteel you idiotic american,stop with your crap polls with which you want to divide europeans.
Any average european from every country in Europe is superior in humanism and smartness to the average white american.
Average turk is also more smart and human than average white american.

Most of you guys are a nation of idiots,who have as main interests:
eating,fucking,watching idiotic TV shows and movies filled with violence and sex.

As for non-white american,those can barely be considered human,after how they behave.Compare an afro-american from Holland/Germany/France with an afro-american from USA,race is same,however,there is a big difference between them.
Why?
Because of the shit state which is USA and what "values" they teach the people from how USA external policy is,what they teach people in schools,how their talk-shows are and so on.

[morski]

Barbariansteel you idiotic american,stop with your crap polls with which you want to divide europeans.
Any average european from every country in Europe is superior in humanism and smartness to the average white american.
Average turk is also more smart and human than average white american.

Most of you guys are a nation of idiots,who have as main interests:
eating,fucking,watching idiotic TV shows and movies filled with violence and sex.

As for non-white american,those can barely be considered human,after how they behave.Compare an afro-american from Holland/Germany/France with an afro-american from USA,race is same,however,there is a big difference between them.
Why?
Because of the shit state which is USA and what "values" they teach the people from how USA external policy is,what they teach people in schools,how their talk-shows are and so on.

LOL:lol00002:

[Incal]

Ex-commies to me.

[Harmonia]

Sure they do.

My point is that Russia and Ukraine are totally different cultures. You can't lump them together.

That's your opinion. I'm not saying that Russian and Ukrainian cultures are exactly the same, but they're certainly similar enough to be grouped in a single region of Europe,imo.

[Mary]

That's your opinion. I'm not saying that Russian and Ukrainian cultures are exactly the same, but they're certainly similar enough to be grouped in a single region of Europe,imo.

No, they're not. It's an objective truth. It's not just my opinion.

[Hess]

When a Russian says "Europe" he means anything else but not Russia.

Indeed, and I think it's very unfortunate :(

Starting from the Soviet Thugs and all the way down to Putin, the corrupt, incompetent Russophobic Russian Government has been spreading the Multiculturalist lie that Russia is in Asia and that Russians are Asians.

[riverman]

Barbariansteel you idiotic american,stop with your crap polls with which you want to divide europeans.
Any average european from every country in Europe is superior in humanism and smartness to the average white american.
Average turk is also more smart and human than average white american.

Most of you guys are a nation of idiots,who have as main interests:
eating,fucking,watching idiotic TV shows and movies filled with violence and sex.

As for non-white american,those can barely be considered human,after how they behave.Compare an afro-american from Holland/Germany/France with an afro-american from USA,race is same,however,there is a big difference between them.
Why?
Because of the shit state which is USA and what "values" they teach the people from how USA external policy is,what they teach people in schools,how their talk-shows are and so on.

Stfu you pussy.

[Damião de Góis]

I think of it politicaly/historicaly: Greece and Finland are not Eastern Europe to me. It's not the best definition but i find it difficult to abstract from it.

[Harmonia]

No, they're not. It's an objective truth. It's not just my opinion.

Is there anything that could directly prove your statement?

[Rereg]

East Europe:

Greece, eastern slavic countries, Rumania, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia, Bulgaria and Moldavia,

[kwp_wp]

Eastern Europe according to myself:
Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova,
those first three could be also perceived as Northern

[Mary]

Is there anything that could directly prove your statement?

Knowledge of the culture.

[Harmonia]

Knowledge of the culture.

That's your claim, not a fact to prove your statement.

[Mary]

That's your claim, not a fact to prove your statement.

Culture can be objectively measured. You can look up Ukrainian festivals for example.

[Harmonia]

Culture can be objectively measured. You can look up Ukrainian festivals for example.

That would just prove that Ukrainian and Russian cultures has differences.

[Mary]

That would just prove that Ukrainian and Russian cultures has differences.

It proves that they are totally different cultures. Go ask some ethnic Ukrainians otherwise.

[Chronos]

Gods and Goddesses of Όλυμπος, I oblige, why must I share nationality with these boneheads?