Türkiye – Hollanda ilişkileri

[The Lawspeaker]

Türkiye – Hollanda ilişkileri



http://nltr400.nl.temp.tamtam.slik.eu/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Cornelis-Haga.jpg
Cornelis Haga


1612 yılında Cornelis Haga, Hollanda Cumhuriyeti’nin Osmanlı İmparatorluğu’ndaki ilk elçisi olarak Konstantinopolis’e atandı. Her ne kadar bugünkü Türkiye’nin selefi olan Osmanlı İmparatorluğu ile Hollanda arasındaki ticari ilişkiler daha eski tarihlere dayanıyorsa da 1612 yılı iki ülke arasındaki diplomatik ilişkilerin başlangıç yılı olarak kabul ediliyor.

400. yıl kutlamalarında Türkiye ile Hollanda sadece ikili ilişkilerinin bu kadar uzun soluklu olmasının üzerinde durmakla kalmayıp, aynı zamanda var olan diplomatik, ekonomik, kültürel ve sosyal alanlardaki ilişkilerinin de derinleştirilmesini ve güçlendirilmesini hedefliyor.

Türkiye, Hollanda için her açıdan önemli bir ortak. Her iki ülke Avrupa kıtasında birbirlerinin çaprazında yer alıyor, (Kuzey batı ve Güney doğu) her iki ülke de belirgin bir ticari yaklaşıma sahip ve bölgelerinde önemli transit işlevi görüyorlar, her iki ülkenin de tarihinde donanma geleneği var ve hem geçmişte hem de günümüzde yaşanan göçler nedeniyle çeşitlilik gösteren bir nüfus bileşimine sahip. Her iki ülkenin de ekonomisi hacim olarak kıyaslanabilir durumda ve birbirini tamamlayıcı nitelikte. İki ülke arasındaki ticaret hacmi son on yılda ikiye katlandı, ayrıca geleceğe yönelik beklentiler de her açıdan ümit verici.

Ekonominin yanısıra güvenlik konusu da iki ülke arasındaki ilişkilerde her zaman önemli bir yere sahip olmuştur. 17. yy’ın ilk yarısından 20. yy’ın ikinci yarısına kadar önce İspanya ile Habsburg Krallığı daha sonra Sovyetler Birliğinin Avrupa’daki hakimiyet girişimlerine karşı işbirliği yapmışlardır. Ellili yıllardan sonra ise NATO bağlamında işbirliği sürmüştür. Türkiye 1999 yılından beri Avrupa Birliğine aday üye ülkelerinden biridir. Türkiye ile tam üyelik müzakareleri 2005 yılında başlamıştır.

Bunların yanısıra, iki ülke aslen Türkiye’den gelen lâle ve Bizans döneminde Myra’da yaşamış dördüncü yüzyıl piskoposu Nicola, Hollandada bilinen adıyla Sinterklaas ile de birbirlerine sembolik olarak bağlıdır. Daha da önemlisi Hollanda’da Türk kökenli 390.000 vatandaşın yaşıyor olması ve Türkiye’de sayıları giderek artan tatil için gelen ya da geçici veya sürekli ikamet eden Hollanda vatandaşlarının varlığıdır.

Türkiye’nin umut veren ekonomisi, giderek önem kazanan stratejik konumu ve küresel güç merkezinin batıdan doğuya kayması, Türkiye’yi Hollanda açısından daha da cazip bir ortak haline getiriyor. Bu noktada Hollanda’nın diğer ülkelere nazaran göz ardı edilemeyecek bir de avantajı var; o da Türk kökenli Hollanda vatandaşları.

Uzun lafın kısası; iki ülke arasındaki diplomatik ilişkilerin 400. yılını kutlamak için yeterli gerekçemiz var.

Website (http://www.nltr400.nl/tr/t%C3%BCrkiye-hollanda-ili%C5%9Fkiler/) about 400 years of Turkish-Dutch relations (TURKISH).

Schakel (http://www.nltr400.nl/relatie-turkije-nederland/) naar de Nederlandse vertaling van het hierboven geposte artikel omtrent de viering van 400 jaar bilaterale betrekkingen tussen Nederland en Turkije.

[Hurrem sultana]

last year or year before swedes celebrated something similar too,and i remember there was a program on tv of cultural exchanges between sweden and the ottomans

among others swedish famous "kåldolmar"/dolme that the swedes brought from Istanbul

[The Lawspeaker]

I am not quite how many 4 or so centenaries we will have to celebrate in the coming years as the Netherlands was very active around the early 1600s and we only just stopped celebrating 400 years of Dutch-Japanese relations (since 1609) and 400 years of Dutch-Moroccan relations (since 1610).

Probably Denmark will be next: in 2045.

[Styggnacke]

last year or year before swedes celebrated something similar too,and i remember there was a program on tv of cultural exchanges between sweden and the ottomans
It was some multiculturalists/Jews who had a counter-demonstration to the Karl XII-celebrations.

[The Lawspeaker]

Relations between Turkey and the Netherlands


The roots of Turkish-Dutch relations date back to the 17th century. Cornelis Haga, the first Dutch envoy assigned to the Ottoman Empire, arrived in Istanbul in 1612. The same year, Sultan Ahmet I gave “ahidname-i hümayun”, an imperial pledge, to the Netherlands. The first permanent envoy of the Ottoman Empire was Yahya Karaca Pasha, who assumed his duty as the Turkish Ambassador in The Hague in 1859.

The 400th Anniversary of the establishment of Diplomatic Relations between Turkey and the Netherlands will be celebrated in both countries in 2012. The 400th Anniversary, an important public relations and public diplomacy activity, will contribute to the bilateral relations between Turkey and the Netherlands, raise awareness of the value of the people of Turkish origin living in the Netherlands and be an added value to the EU membership process of our country. Within this framework reciprocal high level visits are planned.

Turkey and the Netherlands enjoy good political relations and both countries share a desire to strengthen these ties. “The Memorandum of Understanding on the Intensification of Relations between Turkey and the Netherlands and the Establishment of a Turkish-Dutch Conference" was signed on 26 March 2008. The fourth meeting of the "Turkish-Dutch Conference" established in this framework, was held in Ankara on 2 February 2011 under the co-chairmanship of the Minister of Foreign Affairs Ahmet Davutoğlu and the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Netherlands Uri Rosenthal. Within the margins of the conference, bilateral exchange of views on Cultural Relations, Energy-Environment, Immigration-Integration and Fight against Terrorism took place, in separate Working Groups. The next Conference is planned to be held in 2012 in the Netherlands.

From Turkey’s point of view, the substantial presence of the Turkish community in the Netherlands and swiftly developing commercial and economic bilateral relations constitute the most important dimensions of the relations between our two countries. The Netherlands also attaches importance to bilateral ties due to our country’s geo-strategic location, its ever enhancing regional effectiveness, its increasing importance in the transport of energy resources, due to our growing economy and also because of the presence of a substantial Turkish community in the Netherlands.



Source: Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs (http://www.mfa.gov.tr/relations-between-turkey-and-the-netherlands.en.mfa).

According to the Dutch Ministry of Foreign Affairs (http://www.minbuza.nl/producten-en-diensten/evenementen/nederland-ruslandjaar-2013.html) we can expect another such lovely year next year: we will celebrating relations with Russia.

[Onur]

Civis, thanks for the messages but i hope Geert Wilders doesn't go mad about this because i am sure he wont like that at all.



among others swedish famous "kåldolmar"/dolme that the swedes brought from Istanbul
Heyy, i didn't know that Swedes has taken our dolma too, thanks for the info :)

[The Lawspeaker]

Civis, thanks for the messages but i hope Geert Wilders doesn't go mad about this because i am sure he wont like that at all.


Ach .. Wilders. :wink I think that after this cabinet he is no longer a force to be reckoned with in any way, shape or form and he hasn't said a word about it all yet. Apparently Israel hasn't asked for it yet.

[The Lawspeaker]

Civis Batavi, you forgot the most important thing you Dutch people learned from the Turks;

The tulips, your nation`s symbol.

There was an Hapsburg empire`s ambassador to Istanbul named Ogier Ghiselin de Busbecq from 1552 to 1562 AD. He stayed in Istanbul for 10 years but traveled all around Turkey and constantly sent reports to Vienna.

This ambassador was Flemish and he was the first man who brought tulips to Europe from the gardens in Turkey;


He was an avid collector, acquiring valuable manuscripts, rare coins and curios of various kinds. Among the best known of his discoveries was a 6th century copy of Dioscorides' De Materia Medica, a compendium of medicinal herbs. The emperor purchased it after Busbecq's recommendation; the manuscript is now known as the Vienna Dioscorides. His passion for herbalism led him to send Turkish tulip bulbs to his friend Charles de l'Écluse, who acclimatized them to life in the Low Countries. Less than a century later tulip mania was sweeping the United Provinces and ruining its financial markets. Busbecq has also been credited with introducing the lilac to Europe (though this is debated)[2] as well as the Angora goat.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogier_Ghiselin_de_BusbecqThis is his own book from 1560 AD;


http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/7408/clipboard01tb.jpg
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/1585/clipboard02qcn.jpg

http://www.archive.org/stream/lifele.../n125/mode/2up (http://www.archive.org/stream/lifelettbusbecq01forsuoft#page/n125/mode/2up)Btw tulips are not native to Anatolia, we brought it from central Asia when we came here and cultivated it. Before this guy bring it to the Europe, tulips were unknown in there. Only the Hungarians was drawing tulip pictures on their carpets and on their furniture ornamentation, because they came from central Asia too but they didn't bring the flower bulbs unlike us.


This Dutch ambassador was also the last man who noted the Crimean Goths and their language. I posted a msg about that here already;

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43331


There was an Hapsburg empire`s ambassador to Istanbul named Ogier Ghiselin de Busbecq from 1552 to 1562 AD. He stayed in Istanbul for 10 years but traveled all around Turkey and constantly sent reports to Vienna.

He was also the guy who attested the last remaining Goths in Crimea and noted their language for the last time. He calls them as Tatars at first because they were the horsemen of Crimea but he thinks that they either should be the descendants of Goths or Saxons because they were speaking German language.



It`s funny that he relates their habit of eating horse meat without cooking is some kind of barbarian custom. Actually, what Gothic nomads did was, what we Turks call as "pastirma";
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastirma

Pastirma, "pressed meat" in Turkish is the best and easiest meal for mobile horsemen. They were slicing the meat, season it with herbs and putting under the saddle to let it dry faster with the horse`s heat generated from it`s skin. It was practical because dried meat doesn't get spoiled and doesn't need cold to be preserved as fresh.

It`s also interesting that he mentions about the chief of Tatars who raised among these Goths. So, we can say that these last remaining Goths of Crimea who didn't migrate to the Europe, mingled with Tatars or Slavs and disappeared from history.


More interesting notes about Turkish-Dutch relations after the Netherlands became independent:


Maybe it's typical of Dutch that we always seem to be well-connected and able to open closed doors as the article about Haga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelius_Haga) shows:

Haga, who was married to Alithea Brasser, received the capitulation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitulations_of_the_Ottoman_Empire) of the Ottoman sultan, Ahmed I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_I) in 1612. This allowed the Dutch to trade with the Ottoman Empire under their own jurisdiction. The sultan also granted the Dutch several privileges, including exemption of certain taxes and limited autonomy within the empire.

Compare it to Dutch-Japanese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan%E2%80%93Netherlands_relations) relations.


Dutch-Turkish relations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands%E2%80%93Turkey_relations) were also very interesting. Here is some more about the first official Dutch governor, Cornelis Haga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelius_Haga). He served the Dutch Republic as it's envoy to Turkey from 1612 to 1639. 2012 thus will be (and it's official- I just looked it up) marked by commemorations of 400 years of (good) relations.

More about Ogier Ghiselin de Busbecq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghiselin_de_Busbecq) who served the Holy Roman Empire as it's envoy to Turkey from 1554-1556 and again from 1556- 1564.

Oddly enough this wasn't mentioned in the press even though it was an official visit - from the website of the Turkish foreign ministry:


The fifth meeting of the 'Turkish-Dutch Bilateral (Wittenburg) Conference' was held in Rotterdam. (http://www.mfa.gov.tr/the-fifth-meeting-of-the-turkish-dutch-bilateral-wittenburg-conference-was-held-in-rotterdam.en.mfa)

Ahmet Davutoğlu, Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Turkey paid a one-day visit to the Netherlands on 6 March 2012, upon the invitation of H.E. Uri Rosenthal, Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Kingdom of the Netherlands.

On the occasion of the visit, the fifth meeting of the ‘Turkish-Dutch Bilateral (Wittenburg) Conference” was held in Rotterdam, as well. At the meetings between the delegations under the chairmanship of Mr. Davutoğlu and Mr. Rosenthal, all aspects of bilateral relations between Turkey and the Netherlands including economy, immigration, security and energy were discussed. Besides, views were exchanged on Turkey’s EU accession process, Cyprus as well as current regional and international issues.

Foreign Minister Davutoğlu and his Dutch counterpart Rosenthal held a joint press conference following their meetings. Pointing out the 400th anniversary of the establishment of diplomatic relations between Turkey and the Netherlands, Ministers said more than 200 activities including high level visits will be organized in 2012. Mr. Davutoğlu stressed that Turkish-Dutch relations are not only relations between the two states but long-established relations between the two nations. Moreover, Foreign Minister Davutoğlu said the Netherlands is one of the countries to which Turkish citizens are well integrated.

FOOTNOTE:
The “Turkish-Dutch Bilateral (Wittenburg) Conference” which was brought to life by the Memorandum of Understanding (MOU), signed in 2008 by the Ministers of Foreign Affairs of both countries, aims at ensuring the enhancement of Turkish-Dutch bilateral relations and cooperation between Turkey and the Netherlands through meetings of specific Working Groups and exchanging views on the subjects of common interest.
During the fifth “Turkish-Dutch Conference” Working Groups on “Cultural Relations”, “Economy and Energy”, “Migration and Integration” and “Cooperation Against Transnational Threats” met with the participation of high level officials.
Dutch Foreign Ministry:

The Netherlands and Turkey: 400 years of diplomatic relations (http://www.government.nl/news/2012/02/20/the-netherlands-and-turkey-400-years-of-diplomatic-relations.html)

The Netherlands and Turkey are commemorating the 400th anniversary of diplomatic relations this year. The first major event in this connection is the exhibition ‘Rembrandt and his contemporaries – The Golden Age of Dutch Art’ in Istanbul’s Sakip Sabancı Museum. The exhibition was opened this evening by President Gül of Turkey and the Dutch foreign minister, Uri Rosenthal.


In 1612, the Dutch envoy Cornelis Haga presented his letters of credence on behalf of the Republic of the United Provinces to the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire, marking the start of a relationship focused on trade. Bilateral economic cooperation remains important to this day. The anniversary aims to boost the cultural and social as well as the economic ties between Turkey and the Netherlands.


Turkey is enjoying strong economic growth and, due to its strategic location, is a potential springboard to regional markets. The volume of trade between Turkey and the Netherlands has tripled in the past ten years. The Netherlands is one of the largest foreign investors in Turkey, which offers economic opportunities for, in particular, small and medium-sized companies, including those owned by successful Turkish-Dutch businesspeople. The anniversary celebrations will give special attention to these economic opportunities, for instance by way of trade missions. The focus will be on the sectors of water, the environment and waste management, energy-saving technology, agri-food, health care and the creative industry.


Apart from economic relations, there are a growing number of cultural and social ties. The Netherlands is home to 380,000 people of Turkish origin, and more and more Dutch tourists are taking holidays in Turkey. The anniversary also includes several performances and exhibitions by Dutch artists in Turkey – from the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra to the fine arts, from dance to musical theatre, and from the Nederlands Dans Theater to Dutch design. In turn, Turkish art and culture will be showcased at several locations around the Netherlands. There will also be educational and sporting exchanges between Amsterdam and Ankara, Deventer and Izmir, and Rotterdam and Istanbul, to name a few.


http://roimg.nl/bestanden/afbeeldingen/buza/buza-nieuws/2012/istanbul-2-436.jpg
Foreign Minister Rosenthal in the Sakip Sabancı Museum

[StonyArabia]

Go away then. You shouldn't believe everything the press tells you and it's a bit weird to blame everything on Turks while we have problems with an entirely different people here. Or would you call Moroccans Turks as well just because they were part of the Ottoman Empire ? That would make you lot Turks as well.

Morocco was independent from the Ottomans though. It was the one area that was never dominated by outside powers until the rise of Spain and France which colonized most of the Moroccan empire at the time. However Berber pirates who operated semi-independently often acted as vassals of the Ottomans, eventually their activity continued until the 19th century and eventually the Med would never be scouraged by the Berbers again. In the areas where Spain colonized Morocco a mixed race population sprang up called Melitano mixture of Iberian and in some cases French men and local Berber women.

[The Lawspeaker]

The Netherlands during the Golden Age: why the Turks ?

From 1568 to 1648 the Dutch, first as rebel Beggars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geuzen) and assorted groups of noblemen and various other Calvinist rebel groups formed around William the Silent and later on as the Republic of the Seven United Netherlands fought a desperate war against the biggest empire of the day: the Spanish Empire and also against the Holy Roman Empire.

Why ? There is no such thing as an easy answer when it comes to European history but I remember a post (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=328856&postcount=29) that I wrote about it so maybe it could help you if you needed some background info. But to make things easy: political neglect and centralisation, hunger, taxation and religion.

Political background. The area which is are now the Low Countries was never a political union as such with no less then seventeen fiefdoms competing for attention and trade. The political situation was of such a nature that the peoples in these areas and in the free cities fiercely protected their mediaeval privileges. In Brabant one of the more important privileges that was still cherished was the Joyous Entry of 1356. King Philip II was having none of all that rubbish and wanted to centralise affairs. It would be a costly mistake. It were not just the free cities but also the noblemen that were kicking off about just about everything. When the noblemen wanted to offer a petition (known as The Request) to the King's Governor the noblemen were scoffed by one of the Governor's advisers, Berlaymont: ""What, madam, is your highness afraid of these beggars ?" The insult "beggars" stuck and the "beggars" would become Beggars - the Spaniard's most fanatical foes.

Hunger. In 1566 there was widespread hunger in what is now the Low Countries.

Taxation. Never tax a man if he can't defend or represent himself. That goes for the Dutch of today as much as for the peoples of the Seventeen Netherlands back then. Particularly the Tiende Penning (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiende_Penning) ( a ten percent taxation on property sales) would proof to be a BIG mistake when Alva (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernando_%C3%81lvarez_de_Toledo,_3rd_Duke_of_Alba) , the new landlord on behalf of the King introduced it in 1569 (After the first revolt had been brutally crushed).

Religion. Protestantism had entered the Netherlands before and had caused trouble with Mennonites. This time things got a lot worse when in the Southern Netherlands the movement of the Iconoclasm took place and persecuted Calvinists broke into churches and ransacking them. The King then sent the hard-liner Alva north to deal with those rebellion Netherlanders and teach them a lesson.

I am not going to waste much time on the actual war apart from the fact that since the Spain were very inhumane the Beggars (rebels) quickly took up the slogan "Rather Turkish than Papist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liever_Turks_dan_Paaps) !" ("Liver turcx dan paus !" in 16th century spelling) in homage to the (relative) freedom of religion peoples enjoyed in the Ottoman Empire. This was more an ironical remark then a serious one and should be understood as that since the Catholic Spanish had taken things so far they would even rather be governed by the Turk. It is a remark that still seems to mystify people on these kinds of forums but I am glad we could clear this one up for now.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/3_Geuzenpenning%2C_halve_maan.jpg
A Dutch crescent-shaped Geuzen medal at the time of the anti-Spanish Dutch Revolt, with the slogan "Liver Turcx dan Paus" ("Rather Turkish than Papist..."), and "En Despit de la Mes" (French "En Despit de la Messe", i.e. "In Spite of mass"), 1570.
It is also important to know that the Dutch finally began to win the war when the Ottoman Turks (who were at that time at war with Spain) launched their own offensives against the Spanish - giving the Dutch time to regroup and regain the initiative (aided by various English and French interventions).

Now on to the question: why the Turks ? When the Dutch were still fighting for their independence they were constantly under threat from the Spanish and Portuguese, had to compete with the English, faced threats from the French and were not exactly still considered good friends within the Holy Roman Empire. So the Dutch started looking abroad: they sailed to Asia, America, Africa and also began trading with the Turks and the nations alongside the southern edge of the Mediterranean Sea. Also the Venetians (despite of their Catholic background) became good friends.

The Dutch needed an ally and since the Venetians would not be interested in fighting the Spanish the Dutch looked at the Turks: suppose that the Spanish would invade again would our chances be better if we would work together with the Turks ?

That was the first thought behind the opening of Turkish-Dutch relations in 1612. By the time that the war resumed after the Twelve Years' Truce of 1609-1621 the tables had finally turned and the Dutch were beginning to win the war without Turkish intervention in the Mediterranean being needed. The Dutch had their own army and own navy and the Spanish paid the price.

[Gaztelu]

This Dutch-Turkish relationship is an excellent historical example of the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" concept.

[The Lawspeaker]

With this:

http://wps.ablongman.com/wps/media/objects/262/268312/art/figures/KISH301.jpg

VS.

http://images.wikia.com/althistory/images/2/2a/Spanishempire.jpg

Even the devil would have been more then welcome. If you would compare it to today it would be Luxembourg vs. China.

Situation on 15 May 1648 after the Peace of Münster.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/Republiek_der_Zeven_Verenigde_Nederlanden.JPG

The orange areas were Generality Lands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staats-Brabant) (Catholic areas under direct rule of the States-General without political representation).

[Loki]

With this:

http://wps.ablongman.com/wps/media/objects/262/268312/art/figures/KISH301.jpg


The Dutch are awesome and hardy people - they kicked the Spanish oppressors out! And of course they even tamed the ocean. :thumb001:

[Loki]

With this:

http://wps.ablongman.com/wps/media/objects/262/268312/art/figures/KISH301.jpg

VS.

http://images.wikia.com/althistory/images/2/2a/Spanishempire.jpg

Even the devil would have been more then welcome. If you would compare it to today it would be Luxembourg vs. China.

Situation on 15 May 1648 after the Peace of Münster.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/Republiek_der_Zeven_Verenigde_Nederlanden.JPG

The orange areas were Generality Lands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staats-Brabant) (Catholic areas under direct rule of the States-General without political representation).

Post of the century :thumb001:

[Loki]

I am not going to waste much time on the actual war apart from the fact that since the Spain were very inhumane the Beggars (rebels) quickly took up the slogan "Rather Turkish than Papist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liever_Turks_dan_Paaps) !" ("Liver turcx dan paus !" in 16th century spelling) in homage to the (relative) freedom of religion peoples enjoyed in the Ottoman Empire. This was more an ironical remark then a serious one and should be understood as that since the Catholic Spanish had taken things so far they would even rather be governed by the Turk. It is a remark that still seems to mystify people on these kinds of forums but I am glad we could clear this one up for now.


This is very very true! Most people are not aware of the wars of religion that decimated Europe - and eventually gave rise to the Afrikaner nation.

I am going to dedicate a special thread to this, to inform all members on how exactly the Afrikaners came about. It will take some time but it will be worth the wait.

[Loki]

Someone cast a spell on you, Civis Batavi? :(

My friend ... you should read up on history :)

During the Thirty Years War (1618-48), almost half of all Germans were killed. That's right:

Germany lay desolate. The population had fallen from 21 million to perhaps 13 million. Between a third and a half of the people were dead. Whole cities, like Magdeburg, stood in ruins. Whole districts lay stripped of their inhabitants, their livestock, their supplies. Trade had virtually ceased. A whole generation of pillage, famine, disease, and social had wreaked such havoc that in the end the princes were forced to reinstate serfdom, to curtail municipal liberties, and to nullify the progress of a century. The manly exploits of Spanish, Swedish, Italian, Croat, Flemish, and French soldiers had changed the racial composition of the people. German culture was so traumatised that art and literature passed entirely under the spell of foreign, especially French, fashions.

From Europe - A History by Norman Davies

This - in cause - led to the Dutch revolt: tough Dutchmen, who bravely kicked the Spanish oppressors out of the Low Countries. This, my friend, is what led to the ethno-genesis of the Afrikaner people, of which I will describe more fully later.

[The Lawspeaker]

The Thirty Years War (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dertigjarige_Oorlog#De_Republiek_steunt_de_Palts.2 C_Bohemen_en_de_protestantse_Unie) was also the last episode of the Dutch Revolt or Eighty Years War (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachtigjarige_Oorlog) which started in 1568 and went on and on until 1648 as the Dutch got drawn in after the Twelve Years' Truce.

[The Lawspeaker]

‘Het is al een gruwel, dat een roomse (= katholieke) man voorzitter van de Tweede Kamer is. Al die roomsen – wel 30 procent van de bevolking – moeten weg. ‘k Wil ze niet doodmaken, dat mag niet. Ze moeten gotenscheppers worden.’

"It's a disgrace that the chairman of the Lower House is a Catholic. All those Catholics - some 30 percent of the population - have to go. I don't want to kill them, that's not allowed. But they should become sewer cleaners."

Was this said by a Turk or a Dutchman ? This was said by one of the orators at a party congress (http://www.scribd.com/doc/75770702/Het-Koninkrijk-der-Nederlanden-in-de-Tweede-Wereldoorlog-Deel-1-Voorspel) of the Dutch SGP (Reformed Political Party) - an orthodox protestant party (that still has the same values) in 1930.

[Frans Hals]

This is very very true! Most people are not aware of the wars of religion that decimated Europe - and eventually gave rise to the Afrikaner nation.

I am going to dedicate a special thread to this, to inform all members on how exactly the Afrikaners came about. It will take some time but it will be worth the wait.

I don't think so. A Dutch company based in Amsterdam, Vereenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie, VOC, "United East India Company" (bigger and more powerful than Shell today – it even had its own warships) decided to build a “halfweg stasie” – a refueling station for its ships – where modern day Cape Town is. Without that the Afrikaners would never exist.

[Frans Hals]

Civis, thanks for the messages but i hope Geert Wilders doesn't go mad about this because i am sure he wont like that at all.


He is a clown, however, the Turks are far from being really popular in Netherlands both to conservative and to liberal individuals. The stereotypical view Dutch have in regards to Turks is the of (people of tomorrow) as of possessing a different mindset and ethics we can't relate to in no sense.

[Loki]

I don't think so. A Dutch company based in Amsterdam, Vereenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie, VOC, "United East India Company" (bigger and more powerful than Shell today – it even had its own warships) decided to build a “halfweg stasie” – a refueling station for its ships – where modern day Cape Town is. Without that the Afrikaners would never exist.

Frans - trust me man, who do you think populated the halfweg stasie? And it wasn't only Dutchmen in service of the VOC - but German, French and Scandinavian protestants.

[Frans Hals]

What I meant is that the existence of the Afrikaners was not for religious reasons but economic (due the existence of Vereenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie, VOC).

The majority of the employees, were not Dutch, but German and French Huguenots. There were also, Norwegian, Danish, and Scottish employees. But they did not do it for religious reasons but because they wanted jobs and money.

Netherlands was the richest nation in northern Europe then, so we easily could hire cheap labor from other northern nations, as in numbers we had a lot of those 'immigrants' nationalities living in Amsterdam.

Just to put things into perspective, historical GDP per capita figures:

http://i41.tinypic.com/2wel9jo.png

[Onur]

He is a clown, however, the Turks are far from being really popular in Netherlands both to conservative and to liberal individuals. The stereotypical view Dutch have in regards to Turks is the of (people of tomorrow) as of possessing a different mindset and ethics we can't relate to in no sense.
Yes, i can guess how things are in Holland. Actually i am quite surprised to find 3 Dutch members in this forum who are able to escape from all the anti-Turkish propaganda.

You mean the new generation of Dutch people are not that strict as the old one?

[The Lawspeaker]

He is a clown, however, the Turks are far from being really popular in Netherlands both to conservative and to liberal individuals. The stereotypical view Dutch have in regards to Turks is the of (people of tomorrow) as of possessing a different mindset and ethics we can't relate to in no sense.
Well they are not nearly as unpopular as Moroccans. ;)
I can't remember the last few cases of Turks robbing people, chasing old ladies etc. making it into the headlines. But Moroccans...

But doesn't necessaries mean that we want them here. We don't and that's something you know as well as I do but I think that by now a lot of people have a very special kind of hatred reserved for Moroccans.


Frans - trust me man, who do you think populated the halfweg stasie? And it wasn't only Dutchmen in service of the VOC - but German, French and Scandinavian protestants.

You only need to look at Afrikaans names: there are a lot of Walloon and French names and the same went for the people that went to the America's and some even went to the Indies.

The decision was indeed to build a station for rest and recuperation and to stock up on fresh provisions (mainly vegetables and fruit) but that of course take people to man that station.. and that's where your ancestors came in: protestant refugees and Dutch that wanted to move out.




You mean the new generation of Dutch people are not that strict as the old one?
The anti-Islam thing is more something of the present generation and, indeed, of the of our specific form of chavs, the tokkies. It's weird because it's hypocritical: not a single thing is said about those of non-Islamic origins because that would be "racist" but when it comes to Islam you can basically do your worst these days.

I think we should get rid of all the immigrants to be honest.

[Loki]

What I meant is that the existence of the Afrikaners was not for religious reasons but economic (due the existence of Vereenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie, VOC).

The majority of the employees, were not Dutch, but German and French Huguenots. There were also, Norwegian, Danish, and Scottish employees. But they did not do it for religious reasons but because they wanted jobs and money.



No, you are wrong about this. I will elaborate on this later with presentation of facts.

[Onur]

The anti-Islam thing is more something of the present generation and, indeed, of the of our specific form of chavs, the tokkies. It's weird because it's hypocritical: not a single thing is said about those of non-Islamic origins because that would be "racist" but when it comes to Islam you can basically do your worst these days.

I think we should get rid of all the immigrants to be honest.
Thats the problem with these people. They classify all the muslims are like one and single ethnicity and they think like all the muslims are like Usama Bin Laden.

Things would be much better when/if they can realize that there are billions of muslims in the world and not all of them are same.


I agree to you about the immigrants. You are perfectly reasonable to not want them in your country. This is same for me too. We have about ~100.000 illegal Armenian immigrants here and i want all of them out from Turkey, same for drug selling African immigrants or Arabs who came from Levant countries. I don't want any immigrant in Turkey either.

[Arsen_]

I agree to you about the immigrants. You are perfectly reasonable to not want them in your country. This is same for me too. We have about ~100.000 illegal Armenian immigrants here and i want all of them out from Turkey...

Haha, that's really funny when a Turk pretends to portray his country as anything attractive to immigrants.

After Erdogan bubbled this utter bullshit about "100.000 illegal Armenian immigrants" in Turkey the National Institute of Statistics of Turkey gave data that since 2000 year only seven thousand Armenian citizens moved in Turkey. And by the way recently all Armenian citizens left Turkey due to new Turkish laws which hamper education of children in Armenian schools.

[The Lawspeaker]

Haha, that's really funny when a Turk pretends to portray his country as anything attractive to immigrants.

After Erdogan bubbled this utter bullshit about "100.000 illegal Armenian immigrants" in Turkey the National Institute of Statistics of Turkey gave data that since 2000 year only seven thousand Armenian citizens moved in Turkey. And by the way recently all Armenian citizens left Turkey due to new Turkish laws which hamper education of children in Armenian schools.
Well luckily Turkish-Dutch relations and Turkish migration issues are not an Armenian problem.

[Frans Hals]

No, you are wrong about this. I will elaborate on this later with presentation of facts.

I understand what you're saying that religion played an ideological basis for ethnogenesis of Afrikaners as it really was. But I believe more than that, the economy moves the world (reality and structure). And without the economic situation of the Netherlands during this century as it was, the Afrikaners wouldn't ever exist as we know it today, since Netherlands would not be able to create and develop naval technology, logistics, shipping companies and commercial joint-stock company.

[The Lawspeaker]

I understand what you're saying that religion played an ideological basis for ethnogenesis of Afrikaners as it really was. But I believe more than that, the economy moves the world (reality and structure). And without the economic situation of the Netherlands during this century as it was, the Afrikaners wouldn't ever exist as we know it today, since Netherlands would not be able to create and develop naval technology, logistics, shipping companies and commercial joint-stock company.
The goals were dual in that respect: the East India Company needed a supply base and the refugees needed a place for themselves and both profited from this little arrangement and the migration that followed the establishment of Cape Town.

Did you know that a lot of Afrikaners have French last names (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?p=945945) and that there was a significant Huguenot contribution (http://www.hugenoot.org.za/huguenots.htm) ?

[Frans Hals]

Well they are not nearly as unpopular as Moroccans. ;)
I can't remember the last few cases of Turks robbing people, chasing old ladies etc. making it into the headlines. But Moroccans...

Are you serious? Turks are the most over represented ethnicity in organized crime (trafficking in drugs and weapons) in the Netherlands, look at the prisons the head of trafficking and gangs. While Moroccans, Antilleans and Surinamese in petty crime such as shoplifting and theft.



But doesn't necessaries mean that we want them here. We don't and that's something you know as well as I do but I think that by now a lot of people have a very special kind of hatred reserved for Moroccans.
It depends on the particular district and neighborhood where determined ethnicity is more represented.

[The Lawspeaker]

Are you serious? Turks are the most over represented ethnicity in organized crime (trafficking in drugs and weapons) in the Netherlands, look at the prisons the head of trafficking and gangs. While Moroccans, Antilleans and Surinamese in petty crime such as shoplifting and theft.
The only Turks around here are shopkeepers (and very good ones too - I have to hand them that one: they price the local shopkeepers out of the market.). The majority of Moroccans around here are unemployed or are involved in crime. I haven't seen a Turkish criminal for years here. But then again.. maybe Amsterdam is very different: last time I was there I couldn't even order something in Dutch (in a Mac at Damrak).



It depends on the particular district and neighborhood where determined ethnicity is more represented.
I don't think it differs all that much. When was the last time Wilders and/or the press was bitching about Turks ? No it's the Moroccans that are the preferred target. Now that I think of it: the Turks got that bad rep ten, twelve years ago.. and before that it were the Antelleans and Surinamese. I guess it's a "whoever is in fashion that day"- thing.

We have a "Dutch" Turkish member here btw. I am quite sure you'd like to meet her when she logs in.

[Mosov]

Interesting paper on demographical data of Moroccans/Turks in Holland

http://www.forum.nl/Portals/International/English-pdf/Muslims-in-the-Netherlands-2010.pdf

[The Lawspeaker]

"Forum of multicultural affairs". I have never heard of those people but I have looked them up.

The chair of the board of directors, Harchahoui. A Morrocan. Sounds promising. Not.

Some guy claimed that over 900.000 Turks were living here and it seems that my own projections were correct and even higher to what this report claims: 378.000 (I thought 400.000).

[Mosov]

"Forum of multicultural affairs". I have never heard of those people but I have looked them up.

The chair of the board of directors, Harchahoui. A Morrocan. Sounds promising. Not.

Some guy claimed that over 900.000 Turks were living here and it seems that my own projections were correct and even higher to what this report claims: 378.000 (I thought 400.000).

What do you think of Turkish-Dutch marriages? According to that paper around 10% of the Turks/Morrocans choose Dutch partners....

I think paper in all seems reasonable.

[The Lawspeaker]

What do you think of Turkish-Dutch marriages? According to that paper around 10% of the Turks/Morrocans choose Dutch partners....

I think paper in all seems reasonable.
It wouldn't happen if they weren't here. (which should be our primary objective: making sure they are not here) Let's put it that way but I can find no objections in higher educated Turks and Moroccans taking Dutch spouses because they want to escape from their, rather conservative, environment. I have seen Turkish women (and some Moroccan women too) that are very much assimilated - men usually not so.

What I have a problem with is Dutch women and men putting themselves at risk and dating rif-raff (no pun intended.. despite the purposely made spelling error).

[Mosov]

Another interesting article:


In recent years articles have been appearing frequently in the Dutch news media about the return migration of highly educated Dutch citizens of Turkish origin (Turkish Dutch) to their motherland. This theme is common within the Turkish community in the Netherlands and has also caught the interest of both the public and political spheres. Dutch newspaper De Volkskrant recently published a manifesto by a group of professionals on the decreasing bond of Turkish-Dutch youth with the Netherlands. It is claimed that Turkish-Dutch people are not doing well, and that their heads and hearts are thinking of Turkey.

The Turkish community is the largest ethnic minority group in the Netherlands. The size of the group has grown from 22 Turks in 1960, to over 384,000 in 2010. The first came to the Netherlands as guest workers in the ’60s. They came between 1964 and 1975, based on a bilateral agreement between the Netherlands and Turkey to recruit Turkish immigrant workers. Later Turkish migration to the Netherlands mainly consisted of “family migration.” There are currently about 187,000 second-generation Dutch Turks, which is the group that the manifesto writers are most concerned about.

The De Volkskrant manifesto focuses on the labor and social integration of young Turks, based on the assumption that problematic integration leads to isolation and return migration. The fact that a group among Turkish youths exists which does not finish its education, develop its own social networks or seize the opportunity to position itself in Dutch society is an important observation. However, this is only one side of the problem. A portion of Turkish youth is losing its motivation for and vision of a future in the Netherlands. This is not only due to a hardening of society, with its constant criticism for being different, but also because of the group’s upbringing and introverted attitude. The question is whether the Dutch government will solve the problem behind closed doors or working together with the group itself. It is undeniable that the pressure to assimilate meets resistance within private circles. At the same time, there are also many young, second-generation youths who feel right at home in the Netherlands, and do not allow themselves to end up in a victimized role.

Braindrain and braingain

For highly educated Turkish Dutch, a spontaneous increase of return migration among second-generation Turks is in progress. The percentage of remigrants is 10 percent higher among Turks than among Moroccans, the second-largest ethnic minority in the Netherlands. The intention among Turkish Dutch to return to the country of origin of their parents is even higher. In addition to motives for remigration from the Netherlands, such as the social, political and economic climate (push factors), there are other reasons which make Turkey an attractive alternative to those seeking to make a living (pull factors). Those influenced in this respect are primarily young professionals and entrepreneurs who see economic opportunities in the homeland of their parents. The Turkish government would view such return migration positively, and this phenomenon can be considered a “braingain.” Capable young people are returning to Turkey to build a new life and contribute to a thriving Turkish economy. However, as Turkey gains the Netherlands loses. The knowledge of well-educated Turkish-Dutch citizens threatens to disappear with them. From the perspective of the Netherlands, the loss of knowledge – or braindrain – represents a decline of human capital, which to a large extent was funded by public money.

‘Myth of return’

Remigration, or return migration, is a process in which people voluntarily return to their country of origin having lived in another country for a substantial period of time. Turkish natives who immigrated to the Netherlands are re-emigrating to Turkey. Turks who were born and raised in the Netherlands are also emigrating; moving for the first time to Turkey. Returning has always been discussed among older generations, and the second and third generation has grown up with these stories among their parents. However, there are often a number of practical and intangible reasons stopping the first generation from leaving. In particular, the location of remaining family members, children and grandchildren; prospects of a new beginning; and fear of the re-integration process in the country of origin are discouraging. The decision to migrate back can be seen as an emotional decision. The question is what motivates the young Turkish Dutch to re-emigrate.

Again, thoughts about migrating back to Turkey remain alive among Turkish immigrants in the Netherlands. However, there is often a big difference between what one desires and what one actually accomplishes. The desire to leave seems to be strong, but the number of people who seriously consider leaving actually appears to be low. The development of return migration can be considered in five phases: (1) the idea of return migration; (2) the intention of leaving for the country of origin; (3) the decision to migrate back; (4) the action of migrating back; and (5) the degree of satisfaction with return migration. It seems likely that the desire to repatriate among the Turkish Dutch is high, but that many do not actually think about it in practical terms and ultimately do not re-emigrate. This is also called the “myth of return.” Migrants talk and behave as though they favor return, but the reality of daily life means this step is hardly ever taken. Exploratory studies show return migration is a topic of conversation among first, second and third-generation Turks in the Netherlands.

Push and pull factors

Research on migration patterns often utilizes the concepts of push and pull. Push factors are those that contribute to the decision to leave the country. These are factors present in the forms of social exclusion and discrimination, a deteriorating environment and the economic situation, including high rates of unemployment. For this reason the perception of the home country among highly educated Turkish migrants in the Netherlands is important for analyzing return migration patterns. In contrast, pull factors are those that encourage an immigrant to opt for a specific foreign country, in this case their country of origin. These factors include economic growth, a known social network, stable political climate, and the perceived potential for freedom or prosperity. The question is whether Turkey is an attractive pull factor to highly educated Turks, or if the situation in the Netherlands is a significant push factor. The social and political environment, along with labor integration, make up some of the influential push and pull factors for those Turkish Dutch considering migrating back to Turkey.

Social and political climate

On average it is harder for migrant youth to find their way in the job market, which contributes to their lack of a sense of being at home in the Netherlands. It is often argued that they feel under the microscope, pressured to perform three times better than the average employee in order to prove themselves. They struggle to climb out of their social strata, and employment figures demonstrate it is hard for this group to find a job at their (educational) level. Developing strategies to improve the sense of belonging, feeling of being at home, and trust in society as a whole are also factors that might counter this push.

It is also important to look at the impact of the political climate in the Netherlands on the desire to move away. Events such as Sept. 11 and the murder of Theo van Gogh have negatively affected the attitude of the Dutch towards ethnic minorities, especially Muslim immigrants. A survey among immigrants in Holland showed that following the enormous increase in representation by the right-wing Party for Freedom (PVV) in the Dutch elections, more than a quarter of Turkish and Moroccan Muslims expressed a desire to leave the country. The current political climate in the Netherlands is frequently mentioned as a reason to return to Turkey. The effect of such political developments and other migration factors has increased the tendency to leave the country. The hardening of the debate and the negative image of immigrants in the Dutch media are also mentioned by the Turkish Dutch as factors contributing to the decision to re-emigrate.

Integration into the labor market

Research shows that integration into the labor market is a very important contributing factor towards the positive attitude of immigrants in Dutch society. Integration into the labor market indicates whether members of minority groups are getting a foothold on and moving up the ladder in terms of paid employment. Many educated migrants experience difficulties finding a job. There are a number of different reasons for this. Immigrants fall outside the relevant social networks, so they are less visible as candidates for jobs. Employers sometimes have negative expectations about the performance of immigrants, or fear a more diverse staff may bring negative consequences for the functioning of the organization. When Turkish migrant workers first came to the Netherlands there was a lot of heavy manual labor available, especially in the industrial and agricultural sectors. Today the number of jobs in the service industry has greatly increased. Culturally sensitive communication and relationship skills are much more important in service jobs and may put immigrant workers at a disadvantage, due to a lack of sufficient mastery of the language or trouble interpreting the unwritten rules of social conduct. Training, retention and advancement of immigrant employees lag behind that of their native colleagues. Immigrant workers experience greater difficulty in making connections among colleagues and supervisors, and experience more conflict and fewer career advancement opportunities. This is also a contributing factor to increased remigration.

Cultural identity and social network

In addition to obstacles in the development of social contacts outside their own immediate cultural group, highly educated Turkish Dutch have a specific pattern of identification that influences their decision to leave the Netherlands. Do they identify themselves primarily with the Netherlands as their homeland, or do Turks in the Netherlands have a strong focus on Turkey and Turkish culture? How can this be explained? Most immigrants can create a comfortable situation in a different cultural environment, in which they are able to adopt aspects of the new culture while maintaining aspects of their native one. It benefits civil society when immigrants are oriented towards their new environment. The desirability of maintaining one’s original culture is an important theme in public debate about the integration of immigrants into their country of residence. Proponents consider the “mixing in” of immigrant cultures to be a logical consequence of diversity, and even a source of enrichment. Opponents believe that maintaining the native culture of the immigrant population undermines the stability of society and prevents preservation of a Dutch identity. Research has shown that higher educated immigrants with a strong orientation towards the Netherlands are vulnerable to exclusion because they are faced with disappointing opportunities when one considers their level of education. In the academic literature this is referred to as the “integration paradox.”

It is also important to analyze the social relations of Turkish immigrants to their homeland, compared to the Netherlands. Segregation of social networks is not uncommon in the Netherlands: Most Turkish people have mostly Turkish friends. Modern communication allows immigrants to stay in close contact with family and friends in their home country. Frequent visits to the country of origin are possible and occur regularly. Close relationships with friends and family in their country of origin via electronic technology, combined with a strong focus on the social network between the immigrants in the Netherlands, is seen as a contributing factor in the decision to return to their native land.

Positive developments in Turkey

The factors influencing return to one’s country of origin are “pulls.” It is assumed that remigration is more influenced by positive developments in the country of origin than by negative developments in the country of residence. Turkey is a candidate member for the European Union and has seen progress in socio-economic areas in recent decades. The Turkish economy is booming worldwide and in Europe. As a G20 member state it plays an increasingly important role, globally as well as regionally. The prospect of Turkish membership in the EU and its recent economic growth both make migration back home more attractive.

It is assumed that the process experienced in Spain will be repeated. When Spain joined the EU in 1986, the country’s economy and democracy strengthened so much that the majority of Spanish immigrant workers in Western Europe returned to their motherland. Might the same happen when Turkey joins the EU?

In short, while remigration depends in part on the economic situation and social and political climate in the country of residence, it largely hinges on growing opportunities in Turkey. For years, Turks have been the largest group of returning immigrants in the Netherlands, in contrast with the Moroccans and Surinamese, who along with Turks make up the three largest immigrant groups in the country. The opportunities in Morocco and Suriname are not like those in Turkey, with its rapidly improving economic and political conditions over the last decade. Recent studies confirm that the rising economic popularity of Turkey impacts the desire to leave of highly educated professionals and entrepreneurs in the Netherlands’ Turkish community.

Career perspective and international experience

It is not exactly known how permanent the planned return migrations are. Added to other possible push and pull factors, the career perspective – with international experience – is another compelling reason Turks are leaving the Netherlands. Young Turkish immigrants, like their Dutch peers, value employment opportunities which offer chances for an international career. While the Dutch youth have their (usually temporary) international experiences in the US, Australia or the UK, the Turkish-Dutch youth often choose Turkey because of their Turkish and cultural heritage. Some may argue that many of them see it as temporary emigration, and eventually want to return to the Netherlands. However, a positive experience can eventually lead to permanent residency in Turkey, once youth are able to compare the particular push and pull factors in Turkey and the Netherlands.

To conclude, explanations of the recent remigration tendency among educated Dutch Turks point to the social and political climate in the Netherlands as the dominant push factors, and economic opportunities and the democratization process in Turkey as key pull factors. It is noteworthy that in 2010 the Turkish government decided to set up a special directorate for Turkish citizens who live abroad. This directorate will appoint a board of 55 members and will be headed by the Turkish prime minister. The Netherlands will be represented on the board by three persons. A recurrent topic of conversation for the board will be the highly educated Turkish remigrants, who may fulfill a bridge-building role between the two countries, which celebrate the 400th anniversary of their relations in 2012.

http://www.turkishreview.org/tr/newsDetail_getNewsById.action?newsId=223107

[Mosov]

It wouldn't happen if they weren't here. (which should be our primary objective: making sure they are not here) Let's put it that way but I can find no objections in higher educated Turks and Moroccans taking Dutch spouses because they want to escape from their, rather conservative, environment. I have seen Turkish women (and some Moroccan women too) that are very much assimilated - men usually not so.

What I have a problem with is Dutch women and men putting themselves at risk and dating rif-raff (no pun intended.. despite the purposely made spelling error).

Well to my knowledge it's much more common for Turkish/Moroccan male to marry Dutch woman rather than other way around. Usually in such cases it's expected for Dutch woman to convert to Islam and to an extent assimilate in the Turkish/Moroccan culture. Of course there are exception to this when the man is very irreligious and very assimilated, though at that point they might not even consider themselves 'Turkish' anymore.

[The Lawspeaker]

Sounds like good news. The more of them leave - the better. That goes for Turks as much as for Poles or Chinese. One thing though: this is a 2011 article and the press usually tends to write nice article about stuff that never happens. Those Turks and Moroccans are still here.

And the Netherlands is probably going to face a brain drain anyway thanks to the latest developments in education where the government is thinking about dropping the basisbeurs (basically the funds given to students that are going to study) as well as fining those that take longer to complete their studies then projected.

The Netherlands was very interesting (particularly Maastricht University) for British students but I think that at the end of the day Dutch students will probably go abroad and mostly likely not return.


Well to my knowledge it's much more common for Turkish/Moroccan male to marry Dutch woman rather than other way around. Usually in such cases it's expected for Dutch woman to convert to Islam and to an extent assimilate in the Turkish/Moroccan culture. Of course there are exception to this when the man is very irreligious and very assimilated, though at that point they might not even consider themselves 'Turkish' anymore.
It's quite funny that I know.. 0 of those cases. However I have met two Turkish girls that married Dutchmen and since I am living here it should show that developments are a bit different then from what the PVV and like-minded clowns claim.

[Mosov]

Sounds like good news. The more of them leave - the better. That goes for Turks as much as for Poles or Chinese. One thing though: this is a 2011 article and the press usually tends to write nice article about stuff that never happens. Those Turks and Moroccans are still here.

Well, I doubt many of those Dutch-Turks are very patriotic about Netherlands. It seems they have their hearts set on Turkey.

[The Lawspeaker]

Well, I doubt many of those Dutch-Turks are very patriotic about Netherlands. It seems they have their hearts set on Turkey.
So patriotic that this is not a very unusual sight during World Championships:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Turkish_Dutch_Flag_Football.jpg

I have never seen that with Moroccans but I have seen that with Turks just living down the road from here. One has a Dutch and Turkish flag just hanging outside his window and I have always wondered why as the Dutch are not a flag-waving nation at all.

[Frans Hals]

Well, I doubt many of those Dutch-Turks are very patriotic about Netherlands. It seems they have their hearts set on Turkey.
They tend to identify more with Turkey than The Netherlands, and the rather outspoken Turkish Nationalism is a bit at odds with the very understated Dutch civic patriotism. Turkish boys in my high school were always yapping on about how Turkey is the greatest, even when they were born here and had never been there.

I find that Turks are generally the most well integrated group after the Surinamese, Antilleans and the Indos (with whom we have a special relationship, obviously), but it seems to me interaction is often very shallow, fake and with much suspicion of Dutch society.

[The Lawspeaker]

They tend to identify more with Turkey than The Netherlands, and the rather outspoken Turkish Nationalism is a bit at odds with the very understated Dutch civic patriotism. Turkish boys in my high school were always yapping on about how Turkey is the greatest, even when they were born here and had never been there.

I find that Turks are generally the most well integrated group after the Surinamese, Antilleans and the Indos (with whom we have a special relationship, obviously), but it seems to me interaction is often very shallow, fake and with much suspicion of Dutch society.
And compare that to Morrocans that aren't assimilated or even integrated at all (for the most part) but yes: the superficial interaction with native Dutch is a tale-telling sign.

[The Lawspeaker]

z3x6GBozNL0
Staatsbezoek president Gül

Ongeveer 300 militairen waren betrokken bij het vierdaags staatsbezoek dat de Turkse president Abdullah Gül en zijn echtgenote Hayrunissa in april aan Nederland brachten.

Meer hierover: Defensie (http://www.defensie.nl/marine/actueel/nieuws/2012/04/17/46195047/Militair_ceremonieel_voor_Turkse_president_video). 17 april 2012.

Enkele foto's van het staatsbezoek:


http://static2.ad.nl/static/photo/2012/17/12/9/20120417214539/album_large_1181019.jpg


http://www.bnr.nl/incoming/365493-1204/gul2.jpg/ALTERNATES/i/G%C3%BCl2.jpg

http://static2.parool.nl/static/photo/2012/7/8/12/20120418122606/media_xl_1181712.jpg


http://static1.trouw.nl/static/photo/2012/8/4/1/20120419091215/media_xl_1182796.jpg

http://www.koninklijkhuis.nl/umbraco/imagegen.aspx/?image=%2F975211%2Fanp-18695591_1_-web.jpg&width=&height=400&crop=resize&class=local&name=

http://www.eo.nl/db.images/12978359/staatsbezoek_vertrek.jpeg

Dat heeft Nederland dan ook weer achter de rug. Wie is de volgende die op bezoek komt ? :)

[Tor-mentor]

I find that Turks are generally the most well integrated group .

:thumb down
Bollocks! These ''people'' Are not integrated at all!!! Only a small hand full are integrated, this because they're Dutch halfbreeds or their parents didnt raise them with this ''Turkey is the greatest'' ideal!

These ''people'' are scum! Human filth!

[Frans Hals]

:thumb down
Bollocks! These ''people'' Are not integrated at all!!! Only a small hand full are integrated, this because they're Dutch halfbreeds or their parents didnt raise them with this ''Turkey is the greatest'' ideal!

These ''people'' are scum! Human filth!

Eh, idiot, do not put words in my mouth. I never said it in such context. :coffee:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=820688&postcount=42

The full context of my post:


I find that Turks are generally the most well integrated group after the Surinamese, Antilleans and the Indos (with whom we have a special relationship, obviously), but it seems to me interaction is often very shallow, fake and with much suspicion of Dutch society.

[Tor-mentor]

Eh, idiot, do not put words in my mouth. I never said it in such context. :coffee:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=820688&postcount=42

The full context of my post:

I just dont understand where this Turk arse kissing comes from on TA these days.:rolleyes:

But anyway, the Surinamese, Antilleans and the Indo's had connections long enough to be integrated, so i didnt mention it in your quote I used. So Im NOT putting words in your mouth...:coffee:

Very kind of you to call me an Idiot.
Saying that Turks are well integrated makes you a complete b/w tosser.

[The Lawspeaker]

Very kind of you to call me an Idiot.
Saying that Turks are well integrated makes you a complete b/w tosser.
If you compare it to Moroccans, Albanians, gypo's, Poles, Romanians or Yugoslavs. :coffee:

[Tor-mentor]

I've worked with Moroccans, I can say they are integrated as well, sadly.
Poles, Romanians, Albanians are not integrated because they're here for only 8 or 5 years.
The Yugo's are living in our country for two generations now, and sadly they are well integrated. Compared to the Turks, who live here for 4 Generations!

[The Lawspeaker]

I've worked with Moroccans, I can say they are integrated as well, sadly.
Poles, Romanians, Albanians are not integrated because they're here for only 8 or 5 years.
The Yugo's are living in our country for two generations now, and sadly they are well integrated. Compared to the Turks, who live here for 4 Generations!
I haven't seen anyone of those groups being even remotely integrated. There is a minority though.. but these are usually the more educated people.

[Tor-mentor]

Ofcourse I was refering to the minorities..

[The Lawspeaker]

From the youtube page of the Dutch Royal Family:

6EUjbkzh4fE

Queen Beatrix visits Turkey in 2007.

[MfA_]

Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte (L) and Fenerbahçe's Dutch striker Dirk Kuyt (R) presented their gift, a Dutch National Team shirt which has No. 400 on its back to mark the 400th anniversary of diplomatic ties between Turkey and Netherlands, to Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan (C) on Tuesday.

http://www.fenerbahce.org/pic_lib/2012-11-06_kuytbb1.jpg

[The Lawspeaker]

JsWlUxnwyhE
Militair ceremonieel bij bezoek Turkse president Abdullah Gül in Amsterdam-17.04.2012.

[Loki]

The Netherlands is Turkey's foremost supporter in Europe, and for good reason :) It is a friendship that will last.

[Loki]

From the youtube page of the Dutch Royal Family:

6EUjbkzh4fE

Queen Beatrix visits Turkey in 2007.

Fantastic video.

[TheMagnificent]

http://www.fenerbahce.org/pic_lib/2012-11-07_kuytbasin3.jpg

Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte and Fenerbahçe player Dirk Kuijt.

[Kemalisté]

From the youtube page of the Dutch Royal Family:

6EUjbkzh4fE

Queen Beatrix visits Turkey in 2007.

I miss Ahmet Necdet Sezer :(

[Onur]

Fantastic video.
I have never seen such a warm and cozy international visitation between country leaders.

The Dutch royal family even visits a primary school, answers the questions of children and drinks tea in grand bazaar shops :thumb001:

[MfA_]

Tuan help us, how do you call Kuijt :)

P694qLMt6Ws

[Loki]

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1pfOUhKJLr5

[The Lawspeaker]

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1pfOUhKJLr5

It comes quite close.

[Loki]

Here's to the enduring Dutch-Turkish friendship! :thumb001:

[DarkSecret]

Here's to the enduring Dutch-Turkish friendship! :thumb001:

Okay I'll look into it. Thanks:)

[LightHouse89]

Morocco was independent from the Ottomans though. It was the one area that was never dominated by outside powers until the rise of Spain and France which colonized most of the Moroccan empire at the time. However Berber pirates who operated semi-independently often acted as vassals of the Ottomans, eventually their activity continued until the 19th century and eventually the Med would never be scouraged by the Berbers again. In the areas where Spain colonized Morocco a mixed race population sprang up called Melitano mixture of Iberian and in some cases French men and local Berber women.

The Barbary states! North African pirates watch out.

[gültekin]

Turkeye, a village in Netherlands
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkeye


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJjT4XlNso0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjriFy5k2hQ

[Rudel]

This Dutch-Turkish relationship is an excellent historical example of the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" concept.
France started the trend.


almost half of all Germans were killed[/B].
German genocide, best day of my life. We should have killed the other half as well.

Though to be fair, it was the case for every place that came to be occupied during that war. Especially my native Lorraine. It lost 60% of its population during the war, thanks to France, the Swedish mercenaries and the plague (although I'm from the West of the Meuse, so technically it was French at the time and didn't suffer much from the war, even though I have ancestry all over the region).