View Full Version : Bulgars
"Bulgars and Bulgarians",
by Prof. Dr. Plamen S. Tzvetkov, (2002);
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"On the origin of the Proto-Bulgarians",
by Rasho Rashev, Shumen, (1992)
Every attempt to intervene in the century-old question regarding the origin of the Proto-Bulgarians inevitably makes its author repeat well-known facts and interpretations. All possible theories, it seems, has been proposed and most of them have been reviewed and scrutinised. The written sources, upon which the interpretations have been based, have been studied and commented many times over [1].
The archaeology, with its not so definite but more abundant data, however, gives hope for a new approach towards the problem. It cannot be said that these data have been overlooked so far. As it will be shown below, there exists a not large but authoritative group of archaeologists, whose view on the ethnogenesis of the Proto-Bulgarians differs from the officially imposed one. However, it has been laid down quite laconically, frequently just in footnotes, and its unpopularity should not come as a surprise. Another reason lays in the fact that this view was in apparent contradiction to the official one, which on its part is based on the written sources. A non-declared, hidden discussion was going on. This begs us to restate the question about the origin of the Proto-Bulgarians, with stress at some relevant facts which shed a different light upon the question.
So, the question is: were the Proto-Bulgarians Türks? Were the people, led by Asparukh to the Lower Danube, Turkic-speaking? All modern scholars answer positively [2].
The Turkic anthropological type and the Turkicness of the Proto-Bulgarians have not been questioned. The linguistic data in the Namelist of the Bulgarian rulers, in the Byzantine written sources as well as the Proto-Bulgarian stone inscriptions are given as an irrefutable evidence to that. The Turkic names, phrases and words they contain, leave little room for discussion.
A number of Middle Asian elements in the material culture of the First Bulgarian kingdom, such as the 12-year cyclic animal calendar, the cult of Tangra, etc., all with undeniable analogies in the culture of the Turkic khaganate, are also brought forward [3].
An important point, which has evaded attention so far and which was the main reason for the imposition of the Turkic theory about the origin of the Proto-Bulgarians, has to be mentioned from the start. It is that the Turkic linguistic remains and elements of material culture represent exclusively the language and the culture of the Proto-Bulgarian military-administrative and clan leadership. It concerns the khan, its family and court, but not the ordinary population. The available data has been generalised and mechanically transferred not only to the whole aristocracy but also to the rest of the population, designated as Proto-Bulgarian. We have no direct evidence about the language and origin of the latter. There is no evidence of a widespread worship of Tangra, the Turkic god of the sky. On the contrary, we have quite definitive evidence which leaves the Turkic theory in doubt. For example, the anthropological data portray the Proto-Bulgarians as Europeids with weak Mongoloid influences. The attested practice of artificial skull deformation was characteristic not for the Türks, but for the old population of the European steppes – the Sarmatians [4]. Especially indicative is the evidence regarding the old Turkic remains in the Bulgarian language. In the Old Bulgarian literary language they are represented solely by the words kumir (idol) and kapishte (heathen shrine). Some 15 other words resurface in the modern Bulgarian language [5]. Recently, the total number of Turkic words reached 40, but with the significant stipulation that they cannot be proven to be old-Turkic, i.e. pre-Ottoman and pre-Pechenego-Kumanic in origin [6]. In comparison, some 300 words of old-Turkic origin in the Hungarian language are said to be a Proto-Bulgarian legacy. Taking into account the widely held view about the Turkicness of the Proto-Bulgarians, the situation in the Bulgarian language appears strange. The linguist St. Mladenov tended to explain this phenomenon by the small number of Proto-Bulgarians, calling them in this connection “a Turanian band of people” (Turanski narodec). The question about the numbers of the Proto-Bulgarians has been studied too generally, relying mainly on one’s intuition rather than more definite data. This way, they were estimated from 30,000 (by V. Zlatarski, in the first quarter of the XX c.) to some 300,000 by some modern scholars. The only objective criterion is the data from the necropolises. They indeed offer a temporary but, nevertheless, objective picture, which will vary quantitatively in the future. As for now, the inhumations, which are the most reliable sign of Proto-Bulgarian ethnic affiliation, constitute 29 % of all graves in the pagan necropolises of north-eastern Bulgaria. The figure will increase by 2-3 % if we add the inhumations from the necropolises yet to be published and it will come to represent a third of all graves. This is not a negligible share. Therefore, not the alleged small numbers of Proto-Bulgarians is the explanation for the lack of old Turkic linguistic remains in the Bulgarian language. The conclusion may be unexpected, but looks completely natural – the majority of Proto-Bulgarians have not spoken a Turkic language.
We have grounds to speak of two Proto-Bulgarian groups and cultures – that of the Turkic in its origin aristocracy, which occupied the upper positions in the centralised military-administrative apparatus, and that of the ordinary Proto-Bulgarian populace, engaged in agriculture and stock-breeding. These were apparently two different groups, differing not only in their social status, but also in their language and traditional culture. St. Mladenov compared the role of the Proto-Bulgarians amongst the South Slavs to the role of the Franks amongst the Gauls, and to that of the Varangians amongst the Eastern Slavs. His comparison should be corrected in the sense that his “Proto-Bulgarians” should refer to the ruling Turkic Proto-Bulgarian elite, and not the Proto-Bulgarians as a people. It has long been established that during the early Middle Ages ethnical identification was a dynamic category because of the mass migrations and ethnic mixing. Thus, we should not be surprised when V. Beshevliev distinguishes three different ethnical components even in the homogeneous Proto-Bulgarian aristocracy: Turkic, Iranian and Ugro-Finnic [7]. To this we have to add the observations of eminent Turkologists on the strangely sounding Turkic language of the Danubian Proto-Bulgarians [8]. If such an ethnic variety had place in the narrow confines of the aristocracy, we should expect the same and even more within the Proto-Bulgarian massif as a whole.
This is exactly what some Soviet and Bulgarian archaeologists have been assuming [9]. They think that the remains of the old Iranian (Alano-Sarmatian) and Ugro-Finnic population of the Eastern Europe joined the proper Turkic Proto-Bulgarian group, when the latter appeared from the expanses of Central Asia. This population – especially the Sarmatians and the Alans, left a significant mark in the material culture of the Proto-Bulgarians, but were assimilated linguistically, adopting the Turkic language of the new-comers. The alleged process of the hypothetic Turkicisation, however, is not supported by any evidence, it has been assumed a priori, in the same way as the Turkic speech of the Proto-Bulgarians has been assumed. An indirect indication could be the Turkic language of the Danubian Proto-Bulgarians, reflected in the Namelist of the Bulgarian rulers, in the Byzantine chroniclers and in the Bulgarian stone inscriptions. But, as we pointed out already, this takes into account the language of the aristocracy only. Another indirect indication are the runic inscriptions, found in different places in the area of the Saltovo-Majack culture. Part of the runic signs have analogies in the Central Asiatic Turkic runic writing. It is entirely possible that this writing was brought to Europe by the Türks, who had the lands around the Sea of Azov and the North Caucasus under their control during the second half of the VI and the first half of the VII c. AD, and that there it had been preserved in the following centuries in a narrow circle of Turkic priests and educated people. This question (of the SE European runes) can be re-stated more generally. The newest research shows that two types of runic writing had been used in Eastern Europe, out of the six in total types of runic writing spread from Hungary to Mongolia during the early Middle Ages. It cannot be excluded that the runic writing had been used not by Türks only, but by other ethnic groups as well [10]. Maybe the best example are the runic-like inscriptions from the Old Bulgarian monasteries at Murfatlar/Basarab and Ravna.
*****
http://www.kroraina.com/bulgar/rashev.html
Orthodox christians probably knows the eastern Roman missionaries, the brothers called Cyril&Methodious.
In this book, the author relates all this information from a book named "Vita Constantini". "Vita Constantini" is a memoir written by Methodius himself in the years of 870-880 AD, shortly after the death of his brother, Cyril. According to the memoirs of Cyril&Methodius, they have gone to Khazar empire in the year of 861 AD. This is the time when Danube Bulgars started to be converted to christianity by eastern Romans. I checked wiki for it and it says that the Bulgars at Danube has been converted to christianity at 864 AD.
As Methodious states here, the brothers fails to convert Khazars and in another quote from "Vita Constantini", Cyril expresses his frustration like that;
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/7631/33133501.jpg
"The world of the Khazars: new perspectives", Peter B. Golden,Haggai Ben-Shammai,András Róna-Tas,Mekhon Ben-Tsevi le-ḥeḳer ḳehilot Yiśraʼel ba-Mizraḥ (http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=3ZzXjdyK-CEC)
We can see here from the quote in "Vita Constantini", Cyril&Methodius also confirms the origin of Danube Bulgars by calling them as one of the seven tribes along with Khazars. That "seven tribes" as he called are the Turkic tribes (Cyril says "Hunnic people" instead) which mentioned as early as first century AD in the Jewish chronicles where they ascribes this info to the old testament`s genealogy section and by trying to further elaborate the info in it.
The medieval Jewish scholar Joseph ben Gorion lists in his Josippon the ten sons of Togarmah as follows:
1. Kozar (the Khazars)
2. Pacinak (the Pechenegs)
3. Aliqanosz (the Alans)
4. Bulgar (the Bulgars)
5. Ragbiga (Ragbina, Ranbona)
6. Turqi (possibly the Kökturks)
7. Buz (the Oghuz)
8. Zabuk
9. Ungari (either the Hungarians or the Oghurs/Onogurs)
10. Tilmac (Tilmic)."
In the Chronicles of Jerahmeel, they are listed as:
1. Cuzar (the Khazars)
2. Pasinaq (the Pechenegs)
3. Alan (the Alans)
4. Bulgar (the Bulgars)
5. Kanbinah
6. Turq (possibly the Kökturks)
7. Buz (the Oghuz)
8. Zakhukh
9. Ugar (either the Hungarians or the Oghurs/Onogurs)
10. Tulmes
Khazar Correspondence
An exchange of letters in the 950's or 960's between Hasdai ibn Shaprut, foreign secretary to the Caliph of Cordoba, and Joseph, King of the Khazars.
King Joseph's Reply;
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I have a record that although our fathers were few in number, the Holy One blessed be He, gave them strength, power, and might so that they were able to carry on war after war with many nations who were more powerful and numerous than they. By the help of God they drove them out and took possession of their country. Upon some of them they have imposed forced labor even to this very day. The land in which I now live was formerly occupied by the Bulgarians. Our ancestors, the Khazars, came and fought with them, and, although these Bulgarians were as numerous as the sand on the shores of the sea, they could not withstand the Khazars. So they left their country and fled while the Khazars pursued them as far as the Danube River. Up to this very day the Bulgars camp along the Danube and are close to Constantinople. The Khazars have occupied their land up till now.
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This is the letter of Khazar Khan Joseph to the Caliph of Cordoba. This letter is believed to be written in the 950's or 960's AD. Khan Joseph explains how they expelled Bulgars out from Volga region and how they fled to the Balkans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josippon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josippon)
http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/togarmah/ (http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/togarmah/)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicles_of_Jerahmeel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicles_of_Jerahmeel)
http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/khazars/ (http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/khazars/) ... http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/khazar-correspondence/ (http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/khazar-correspondence/)
Padre Organtino
03-18-2012, 12:24 PM
Lol at identity issues:D
In the article above, Bulgarian prof. Rasho Rashev talks about the Turkic runes found in the the Old Bulgarian monasteries at Murfatlar/Basarab region in today`s Romania-Bulgaria border.
This is an unusual 9-10th century cave monastery in Basarabi, Romania. There are pictures and writings carved on the walls of cave and it is multi-lingual with old church slavonic and Turkic words, mostly written by using Turkic runic script and few in Glagolitic.
Inscriptions and pictures in the Monastery dated from the era of first Bulgar kingdom, late 9th century and early 10th century. Some inscriptions mentions about Bulgar king Simeon I of 890 AD. So, it`s few decades after Bulgar people started to be converted to christianity. Some scholars says that the inscriptions belongs to Pecheneg(Patzinak) Turks, some says it belongs to Bulgars but it`s not known for sure.
Basarabi Cave Complex
The complex of cave churches situated near the village of Basarabi, in Dobrudja (Romania), not far from Constanta, was discovered in 1957. Until the last third of the tenth century the entire complex consisted probably of a group of limestone quarries which provided various blocks of chalk used in the construction of the upper part of the Great Stone Wall of Dobrudja, from Constanta up to Cernavoda. According to I. Barnea, the extraction of stone could have ended under John Tzimiskes (969-976) or Basil the 2nd (976-1025).
The abandoned caves could have been then transformed into a monastery. It so happened that the complex changed into a group of churches and burial chambers, located inside the limestone hill, at different levels, and interconnected through galleries.
Most of the chamber-walls are covered with overlapping graffiti, including drawings and inscriptions, thus making possible to discern different periods of the site’s history.
The variety of the graffiti is wide: there are Christian symbols, drawings of animals and men, Turkic runes, and Cyrillic inscriptions. These drawings could have appeared as early as mid-tenth century, as supposed by D. Ovcharov. Among the Basarabi graffiti there is a large number of runic inscriptions and separate signs, undoubtedly of Turkic origin.
http://www.mnuai.ro/docs/apulum/articole/1.fetisov.pdf
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_WERnXjdgj9Q/SNypX_jUmuI/AAAAAAAAAWY/J1NsNnD1sMA/s1600-h/Murfatlar+church+b4.JPG
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_e-e5V512VaE/SyCeRc02ZWI/AAAAAAAACk0/hJpCXc3IPEA/s400/bisericuta+basarabi.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_e-e5V512VaE/SyCenZsuQBI/AAAAAAAAClE/eG_Z32h0Sqs/s400/DSCF3685.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_e-e5V512VaE/SyCex5PYqpI/AAAAAAAAClM/OxpnD-8AY8o/s400/DSCF3628.JPG
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_WERnXjdgj9Q/SNypYDhDbPI/AAAAAAAAAWg/2Pi0Efm4ySw/s1600-h/Murfatlar+inscriptions.JPG
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_e-e5V512VaE/SyCedfuUa6I/AAAAAAAACk8/WsDDISK7_44/s400/IMGP3672.JPG
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3280/2607779559_4430c3a6e2.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3256/2607779785_c76f73bb22.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3104/2608610834_fb87de9603.jpg
http://www.patzinakia.com/BASARABI/FOTO/C1-C2/07.jpg
http://www.patzinakia.com/BASARABI/FOTO/B3/18.jpg
http://www.patzinakia.com/BASARABI/FOTO/B3/20.jpg
http://www.patzinakia.com/BASARABI/FOTO/B4/43.jpg
These are some drawings of christian saints with Turkic runic inscriptions on them in old church slavonic or Turkic words;
http://www.kroraina.com/pb_lang/P124C.gif
http://www.kroraina.com/pb_lang/P124B.gif
There is a video of this cave monastry in this Romanian website;
http://www.realitatea.net/video_900637_complexul-rupestru-de-la-basarabi--judetul-constanta--sapat-in-stanca-de-piatra--are-o-vechime-de-1-200-de-ani_580837.html
For more info and pictures;
http://www.patzinakia.com
An Article about this cave by prof. Florin Curta, Cornell University, NY, USA. F. Curta translates and explains the inscriptions here;
http://florida.academia.edu/FlorinCurta/Papers/163815/The_cave_and_the_dyke_a_rock_monastery_on_the_tent h-century_frontier_of_Bulgaria
My opinion on this thread:
Like a famous Bulgarian TV host has said... "Gosh, I am listening and I am not believing my eyes." :laugh:
I have read all this stuff several times, and it's not funny, Turkery. I think you should start to make a difference between pseudo- and real science :rolleyes:
My opinion on this thread:
I have read all this stuff several times, and it's not funny, Turkery. I think you should start to make a difference between pseudo- and real science :rolleyes:
I didn't write these myself. These are written by two different Bulgarian professors and one other Romanian historian.
You better tell your "true scientific" opinion to them, not to me, tell them to stop spreading their "pseudo-scientific" thoughts and start listening you and your VMRO, ATAKA fascists.
Kanuni
03-18-2012, 01:13 PM
Once again this is very interesting.
As a Pomak(Muslim Bulgarian) who adopted Turkish identity tries to make a link between Bulgars and Turkics to conform yourself.
So far, genetically there is not detected any Central Asian influence on Modern Bulgarians.
hajduk
03-18-2012, 01:14 PM
Once again this is very interesting.
As a Pomak(Muslim Bulgarian) who adopted Turkish identity tries to make a link between Bulgars and Turks to conform yourself.
So far genetically there is not detected any Central Asian influence on Modern Bulgarians.
A troll, he can't speak bulgarian too, besides in Petrich there are no turks :laugh:
So far, genetically there is not detected any Central Asian influence on Modern Bulgarians.
This doesn't mean they disappeared, it just means they were not a Turko-Mongol horde.
I didn't write these myself. These are written by two different Bulgarian professors and one other Romanian historian.
You better tell your "true scientific" opinion to them, not to me, tell them to stop spreading their "pseudo-scientific" thoughts and start listening you and your VMRO, ATAKA fascists.
These studies are not based on solid scientific soil. As I have said and I repeat myself for a thousandth time, there are no firm evidences about the background of Bulgarians - either Turkic or Iranic. Iranic theory seems more logical that's why I support it.
Kanuni
03-18-2012, 01:18 PM
This doesn't mean they disappeared, it just means they were not a Turko-Mongol horde.
If they were Iranic tribe then there must be some Gedrosian component be it even in lower percentage.
Adds some Caucasus too.
So far, genetically there is not detected any Central Asian influence on Modern Bulgarians.
Hurray for them!!! So they can sleep at nights without seeing Turkic speaking Asparukh and Kubrat in their nightmares?
Idiot Gheg, i was talking about the Bulgars of 9th century above here, not the slavic speaking pseudo-Bulgar(ian)s of today. Today`s Bulgarians have zero connection with them anymore except their country`s name.
besides in Petrich there are no turks :laugh:
There was Turks in Petrich for at least 600 years but yes, there is not even one anymore, guess why?!
These studies are not based on solid scientific soil. As I have said and I repeat myself for a thousandth time, there are no firm evidences about the background of Bulgarians - either Turkic or Iranic. Iranic theory seems more logical that's why I support it.
Thats wrong. The living hard proofs like the Murfatlar cave from 9th century and all other remains found in Pliska like animal calendar with Turkic tamgas are strong scientific proofs. Also dont you see what St. Cyril&Methodious wrote about you in 870 AD while they were quite busy with baptizing Bulgarians? do you dismiss them too? What kind of christian are you? Hmm, you are one bad bad Bulgarian !!!
It`s just you refute these proofs, especially for the last 2 decades, probably because of your bitter past with Ottoman era but these are hard truths. The pseudo-science is your latest adventures like searching your never-existed Iranian ancestors in Afghan mountains.
If they were Iranic tribe then there must be some Gedrosian component be it even in lower percentage.
Adds some Caucasus too.
Ancient Iranics were very low on Gedrosian. They were mostly North Euro+Med+Caucasus.
And these components are abundant in modern Bulgarians. Note that Slavs, Thracians and Bulgarians were possibly not very far genetically.
Today`s Bulgarians have zero connection with them anymore except their country`s name.
You are not the one to tell me with whom I have connection and with whom not.
hajduk
03-18-2012, 01:23 PM
hurray for them!!! So they can sleep at nights without seeing turkic speaking asparukh and kubrat in their nightmares?
Idiot gheg, i was talking about the bulgars of 9th century above here, not the slavic speaking pseudo-bulgar(ian)s of today. Today`s bulgarians have zero connection with them anymore except their country`s name.
There was turks in petrich for at least 600 years but yes, there is not even one anymore, guess why?!
Абе отговори ми на български бе майка ти да еба турски мръшляк
пустиняк
03-18-2012, 01:27 PM
The guy is from Petrich Pirin Macedonia. People there just don't speak Bulgarian only Macedonian.
Kanuni
03-18-2012, 01:28 PM
Hurray for them!!! So they can sleep at nights without seeing Turkic speaking Asparukh and Kubrat in their nightmares?
Idiot Gheg, i was talking about the Bulgars of 9th century above here, not the slavic speaking pseudo-Bulgar(ian)s of today. Today`s Bulgarians have zero connection with them anymore except their country`s name.
The only idiot here is you.
I know that you bear agenda behind your posts/threads trying to make Turkics native to Balkans.
I have nothing against you but spare us from your nonsense please.
Ancient Iranics were very low on Gedrosian. They were mostly North Euro+Med+Caucasus.
And these components are abundant in modern Bulgarians. Note that Slavs, Thracians and Bulgarians were possibly not very far genetically.
I am not sure whether they lacked Gedrosian but i share the opinion with you they weren't genetically very distant.
A troll, he can't speak bulgarian too,
Yes i cannot speak the language of today`s Bulgarians, which was classified and standardized by the Russians after 1878.
BUT, I can speak the language of Asparukh and Kubrat, along with the one million Turks who lives in Bulgaria today, can you speak it?
Here are the some examples;
The language of the Asparukh and Kuber Bulgars, Vocabulary and grammar
Characteristic features of the Bulgar grammar
The most characteristic features of the Bulgar grammar were:
1. Definitive articles at the end of the nouns:
-A, -O, -OT, -ON, -ET for words of masculine gender;
-VA, -SA, -NA, -TA for words of feminine gender (See the Geographic section for more details).
2. Words of masculine gender ending in -A: BOILA, KANA, ZERA, etc.
3. Suffixes -SI, -SKHI (-SHI) and -IN for the formation of possessive adjectives (ALHASI, KHUMSKHI, ESTROGIN, etc.).
4. Suffix -CHII for the formation of nouns denoting a trade (SHARCHII, KNIHACHII, ZDCHII, etc.).
5. Formation of plural forms by -AR (CHAKARAR, BOILAR, etc.).
6. Formation of possessive forms by the suffixes -I, -GI and -IGI (ZENTI, OKHSI, SUBIGI, TAGROGI, ITZIGI, etc.).
7. Oblique case being formed by the ending -I (TES – TESI in the inscription from Nagy Saint Miklos, Hungary).
8. Characteristic suffixes -EM and -AM in the ordinal numerals (ALEM – first, TUTOM – second, etc.).
9. Diminutive suffixes -UKH, -IK, -CHU (-CHO), -CHE, -CA for the personal names (Asparukh, Valukh, Irnik, Manchu, Khanchu, Trajche, Ganica, etc.).
10. Formation of composite determinate constructions in which every preceding word determines the next one (KANA BOILA KOLOBR – the khan's great kolobr [priest], etc.).
11. A characteristic conjugation of the auxiliary verb TO BE – 'E' for third person, singular, present tense, and 'BE' – for third person, singular, past tense.
12. A characteristic word order in which the predicate was placed at the end of the sentence (ZENTI ASO E, ANZI ZERA ITZI ASO E, etc.)
http://www.kroraina.com/b_lang/bl_gramm.html
I am not an expert but i can easily say that these grammatical features cant be related with an Indo-European family. You don't have to be an expert to say that this is an agglutinative language with lots of suffixes. Also i see that all of these suffixes are present in today`s Turkish;
I am gonna use the Turkish word "kofte" (meatball in English) as an example
3. Suffixes -SI, -SKHI (-SHI) and -IN for the formation of possessive adjectives (ALHASI, KHUMSKHI, ESTROGIN, etc.).
Kofte-si, Kofte(n)-in; his/her meatball, your meatball
4. Suffix -CHII for the formation of nouns denoting a trade (SHARCHII, KNIHACHII, ZDCHII, etc.).
Kofte-ci, Kofte-dji; The one who prepares/sells meatballs.
5. Formation of plural forms by -AR (CHAKARAR, BOILAR, etc.).
Kofte-lar; The "meatballs" as plural
7. Oblique case being formed by the ending -I (TES – TESI in the inscription from Nagy Saint Miklos, Hungary).
As "Kofte(n)-i" in Turkish...
9. Diminutive suffixes -UKH, -IK, -CHU (-CHO), -CHE, -CA for the personal names (Asparukh, Valukh, Irnik, Manchu, Khanchu, Trajche, Ganica, etc.).
Kuchuk; Small
Kofte-cik; Small meatball
Çocuk, Cho-chuk; A small kid
ku-chu: dog puppies or small dogs in Turkish.
12. A characteristic word order in which the predicate was placed at the end of the sentence (ZENTI ASO E, ANZI ZERA ITZI ASO E,etc.)
This is the classic word order of all Uralic/Altaic languages as "Subject-Object-Verb"
************
I can give more examples...
Kanuni
03-18-2012, 02:10 PM
Yes i cannot speak the language of today`s Bulgarians, which was classified and standardized by the Russians after 1878.
BUT, I can speak the language of Asparukh and Kubrat, along with the one million Turks who lives in Bulgaria today, can you speak it?
Thanks for clearing up my doubts.
The only idiot here is you.
I know that you bear agenda behind your posts/threads trying to make Turkics native to Balkans.
I have nothing against you but spare us from your nonsense please.
Eastern Romans knew Bulgars and mentioned about them much earlier than their migration to Danube.
Due to civil war inside Gokturk empire, few tribes broke up with Asena clan (rulers of Gokturk empire) and formed their own kingdoms inside the empire. Avar tribe formed theirs in the north of Blacksea, then expanded in to the Pannonia. Bulgars under the leadership of Kubrat formed his kingdom around Volga river. Khazar tribe formed theirs, right at the north of Bulgar one.
Khan Kubrat`s Volga Bulgar kingdom short lived because Khazar tribe forced them to be subjugated inside Khazar kingdom. In the end, Kubrat`s heirs and their armies expelled out from Volga region and the youngest son of Kubrat, Asparuh migrated to the Danube.
All these events has been recorded by eastern Romans and the existence of the Bulgar tribe recorded by them after the reign of Kubrat in early 7th century. Kubrat`s grave has been founded in today`s Ukraine and it was full of gifts given by the eastern Roman emperor, golden cups and other golden materials.
Brief story of Bulgars and Kubrat are also recorded by the Gokturk rulers, on the Orkhon monuments after Kubrat`s death. He is recorded as Kurt Kubrat, meaning "wolf" in Turkish.
This is the chronicle of Byzantine scholar named Theophanes Confessor" written in 780-818 AD by Theophanes himself. It includes major events between 214-818 AD but he says that he used earlier Roman chronicles to write the events of the past. Most of these earlier chronicles are lost today (says so on the preface).
Bulgars are getting mentioned in Byzantine chronicles since Khan Kubrat gained their independence from Gokturk empire in 632 AD (checked wiki for the date). Eastern Romans was quite interested with the events related with Turkic people, Gokturk empire, Khazars, Bulgars, Avars etc. because they were either good allies or major rivals to them.
Here is Theophanes about the Bulgars. He writes their history when he was talking about Asparuh`s migration to the Danube in 678 AD;
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/4650/clipboard011y.jpg
morski
03-18-2012, 05:02 PM
I generally hold in highest regard what prof. Rashev wrote about the Proto-Bulgarians- Several extended families of Turkic Bulgars leading a people of Slavicised Scytho-Sarmatians and Antes Slavs all of said components already using Slavic as a lingua franca at the time of the establishment of Danube Bulgaria.
I generally hold in highest regard what prof. Rashev wrote about the Proto-Bulgarians- Several extended families of Turkic Bulgars leading a people of Slavicised Scytho-Sarmatians and Antes Slavs all of said components already using Slavic as a lingua franca at the time of the establishment of Danube Bulgaria.
At last a sane Bulgarian here :)
Yes, thats true and it was most likely it was vice versa. So, Turkic people probably knew common slavic and slavic people knew common Turkic. This Slavic-Turkic cultural exchanges are either coming from the common homelands of north of Blacksea or it`s from Avar empire, ruled between 6-8th century in all southeastern Europe and part of central Europe.
Avar empire`s both people and rulers was probably bilingual with common Turkic and common Slavic.
Another interesting article by Prof. Kenneth Meyer Setton about the Avars, Bulgars and their invasion of Corinth, Greece in 7th century which completely altered the demographics in there.
This event was also a base for German scholar Fallmerayer`s famous findings about the fallacy of today`s modern Greeks being the direct descendants of ancient ones. He claimed that this event was the latest blow which resulted complete disappearance of whatever left from ancient Greeks;
The Bulgars in the Balkans and the Occupation of Corinth in the Seventh Century
by Prof. Kenneth Meyer Setton,
American historian and an expert on the history of medieval Europe.
UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA,
(Speculum, 25.04.1950, 502-543)
Click here;
http://groznijat.tripod.com/bulgar/setton.html
I generally hold in highest regard what prof. Rashev wrote about the Proto-Bulgarians- Several extended families of Turkic Bulgars leading a people of Slavicised Scytho-Sarmatians and Antes Slavs all of said components already using Slavic as a lingua franca at the time of the establishment of Danube Bulgaria.
But couldn't it have been more possible exactly the elites to be bilingual?
I personally think that the ordinary people of ancient Bulgarian or Thracian origin became fully Slavicized centuries after Slavic Bulgarian became official language...
morski
03-18-2012, 06:22 PM
At last a sane Bulgarian here :)
Yes, thats true and it was most likely it was vice versa. So, Turkic people probably knew common slavic and slavic people knew common Turkic. This Slavic-Turkic cultural exchanges are either coming from the common homelands of north of Blacksea or it`s from Avar empire, ruled between 6-8th century in all southeastern Europe and part of central Europe.
Avar empire`s both people and rulers was probably bilingual with common Turkic and common Slavic.
I doubt that. The elite were bilingual but the bulk of the population spoke Slavic only imo.
I doubt that. The elite were bilingual but the bulk of the population spoke Slavic only imo.
Thats impossible. If that was the case then who wrote Turkic runic signs in Basarabi cave in 9th century? Surely the slavic peoples was many but not all.
Also Avars couldn't possibly live in central and southeastern Europe for ~300 years with only the sedentary slavic people in their country. They surely had ~100.000 strong armies who were able to defeat both eastern and western Romans, invade Greece, Thrace by crushing Byzantine armies while they were in their peak. If they only had sedentary slavic dwellers then Romans would crush them quickly, they couldn't even create an empire which lived for ~300 years.
We can guess how powerful the Avar empire was from their siege of Constantinople. They failed to capture because they had no technology to overcome giant walls but they were the very first army who were able to reach to the walls of the city and it was the first ever siege of Constantinople anyway, in 626 AD. They formed an alliance with Persians from east and attacked together.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Constantinople_%28626%29
Turkic Bulgars being small ruling core and slavs being the 90% of people is just a myth. If that would be the case, then how come Bulgars were able to withstand and defeat ~100.000 strong Byzantine armies for many times?
I believe slavization of people was connected with christianization of Bulgaria and the policies of Byzantines towards them. Maybe they supported slavs against the Turkic ruling core by using christianity as a dividing factor, or maybe some other reason. We probably never learn the reason because after christianity, Bulgarians were requested to destroy whatever they have, related with their shamanist, tengrist, naturalist past. This was a policy of Byzantines to tame Bulgars, so they obey the patriarch in Constantinople. Maybe they connected the Turkic language with their tengrist past, and slavic language with christianity as Cyril&Methodious desired to be so.
Padre Organtino
03-18-2012, 06:47 PM
Dude, you're a sad case, really. In Georgia there are plenty of folks with Russian/Ukranian background but none would start idiotic stuff bout Kievan Rus being actually Georgian and etc. They are accepted the way they are.
Turks are not native to Balkans and the same applies to any Anatolian and Caucasus group.
morski
03-18-2012, 06:47 PM
I don't know about the Avars, but here's what Rashev wrote about the bulgars:
...As we have shown this possibility was being considered before, but the Turkification of this population is widely and unconditionally accepted, but there are actually no direct data supporting it. In the period VI-VII c. in the steppes North of the Black Sea basin this population had a prolonged contact with another, Northern by its origin, population that in contrast burned its dead and naturally spoke a different language.These contacts continued in the next several centuries and the total disappearance of the Iranic language shows that Slavic prevailed. This enables us to make the assumpiton that Slavic was dominant even before the disintegration of the Penkovka culture. The mixed population most probably speaking Slavic was prepared for its expansion in the South towards the lower Danube as shown by the penkovka ceramics found in numerous early Byzantine fortresses. Forced to abandon their settlements around Dnieper en masse short afterwards, probably as a result of Khazar expansion, they were more than happy to place themselves in service of Asparukh's band, seeing in it a guarantee for their own security. Asparukh may has brought a lot more Indo-Europeans than Turks and because of this the proper Turks were forced to quickly forget their own language. The Turkic tradition in its spiritual forms mostly as well as military-administrative structures, names and titles was preserved among the ruling classes, who settled mainly the Pliska area. The Mass presence of Slavic and Slavicised Iranic population brought by the Bulgars can more convincingly explain some widely known but poorly interpreted facts from the early history of the Bulgarian culture:
1. The widespread Slavic toponymy of the central area of the Bulgarian state.
2. The Slavic names of the capital cities Pliska and Preslav.
3. The negligible Turkic relics in Bulgarian language.
4. The non-conflicting biritualism of the Bulgarian funeral rite.
5. The quick consolidation of the Bulgarian volk, which was complete long before 865 and whom the Christianization merely legitimized.
In this light the question of the origin of the Bulgars acquires new possibilities for shattering the old stereotypes, which were forced on our historiography in the interbellum period and some of them are still alive today.
The original text:
...Както показахме, частично тази възможност е била допускана и досега, но тюркизацията на това население се приема за безусловна, а за нея всъщност липсват директни данни. През VI-VII в. в Северното Причерноморие това население много преди идването си е имало продължителни контакти с друго, северно по произход население, което за разлика от него изгаря своите мъртъвци и естествено говори друг език. Тези контакти са продължили и през следващите столетия и повсеместното изчезване на иранския език показва, че е надделял славянският. Това дава основания да се допуска налагането на славянския още в периода преди разпадането на пенковската култура. Смесеното население, говорещо най-вероятно славянски език, е било подготвено за експанзията си на югозапад към долното течение на Дунав, както показват изолираните находища на пенковска керамика в редица ранновизантийски крепости [32]. Заставено да напусни малко по-кьсно масово поселенията си в Поднепровието най-вероятно в резултат ог експанзията на хазарите, то е било удовлетворено от възможността да се постави под контрола на Аспаруховата дружина, съзирайки в нея гаранции за собствената си сигурност. Аспарух може би е довел (или увлякъл след себе си) много повече индоевропсйци, отколкото тюрки и поради това попадналите в тази среда същински тюрки са сили принудени бързо да забравят родния си език. Тюркската традиция главно в своите духовни форми, административно-военни структури, имена и титли се е запазила сред управляващата върхушка, която ще е населявала предимно Плисковското поле. Масовото присъствие на собствено славянско и славянизирано иранско население по-убедително може да обясни някои широко известни, но неубедително тълкувани факти от ранната история на българската култура:
1. Повсеместната славянска топонимия в централната област на българската държава.
2. Славянските имена на столиците Плиска и Преслав.
3. Незначителните тюркски остатъци в българския език.
4. Безконфликтната биритуалност на българския погребален обред от VIII-IX в.
5. Бързата консолидация на българската народност, която е била налице далеч преди 865 г. и която официалното приемане на християнството само формално узаконява.
Погледнат от подобен ъгъл, въпросът за произхода на прабългарите придобива нови възможности за преодоляване на стереотипите, които в нашата историческа наука са наложени още в периода между двете световни войни и някои от тях са още живи.
Bilingualism for the whole pop is not plausible imo. I'd accept that the elite were bilingual at most and even that's debetable. Slavic was the lingua franca, that's why we turned up a Slavic ethnicity eventually with virtually no Bulgar input in our language.
Ariana
03-18-2012, 06:51 PM
The only reason why I believe that the Bulgars were Iranians is because their founder was named Asparukh which is a completely Iranian name.
morski
03-18-2012, 06:57 PM
The only reason why I believe that the Bulgars were Iranians is because their founder was named Asparukh which is a completely Iranian name.
Yeah, even the Bulgar elite were probably mixed Turkic-Iranics, a lot of the names of the pre-Christian archonts are actually Iranic like Asparukh and Presian- and not Turkic, some of them even have Slavic names - Malamir, Enravota... so they were a mixed bag and their lingua franca was Slavic.
Kanuni
03-18-2012, 07:00 PM
Dude, you're a said case, really. In Georgia there are plenty of folks with Russian/Ukranian background but none would start idiotic stuff bout Kievan Rus being actually Georgian and etc. They are accepted the way they are.
Turks are not native to Balkans and the same applies to any Anatolian and Caucasus group.
Obvious is obvious since he adopted Turkish identity he tries to kill two birds with one bullet conforming himself for his adopted identity(making Bulgars Turkic means he is a Turk not a Turkified Slav) and making Turkics native to Balkans.
http://4closurefraud.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/captain-obvious.jpg
Ariana
03-18-2012, 07:01 PM
Yeah, even the Bulgar elite were probably mixed Turkic-Iranics, a lot of the names of the pre-Christian archonts are actually Iranic like Asparukh and Presian- and not Turkic, some of them even have Slavic names - Malamir, Enravota... so they were a mixed bag and their lingua franca was Slavic.
Yeah, have you seen this article (http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=117903) btw? What do you think about it? Is it just bullshit?
I am fully inline with prof. Rashev.
Btw i also agree to him about the fallacy of the theory of central Asians being fully Arians but later assimilated by Turks in quick period.
As we have shown this possibility was being considered before, but the Turkification of this population is widely and unconditionally accepted, but there are actually no direct data supporting it.
This is something impossible and there is not even one single proof of that.
The people of central Asia was mostly Turkic, then followed by Uralic, Slavic speakers along with the small minority of remaining Goths who spoke German language. This was also the composition of Attila`s Hun army; Turks, Magyars, Goths and possibly proto-slavs (if such a group ever existed)
Yeah, have you seen this article (http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=117903) btw? What do you think about it? Is it just bullshit?
Such stupid articles without single proof are probably to sooth the minds of some weirdos in Bulgaria like ATAKA, VMRO people, giving a message to them like "don't worry, our ancestors was pure Aryans from Iran&Afghan mountains". Ofc these are probably only for bulgarian tabloids, but with zero scholar, academic value.
P.S: Padre Organtino and Leo, quit blabbering about being native to Anatolia&Balkans or not. Neither me nor anyone in Turkey cares about such bullshit. This nativity games and "i am more ancient than you, rawrr" crap are for narrow-minded people with no political power. Turks came here by the right of conquer and we are here for 1000+ years. We welcome anyone who wants to defy that. No one claims to be 10.000 year old natives here, thats what you Albanians, Armenians and Greeks claims.
So cut crap about being indigenous or not. I simply don't care.
morski
03-18-2012, 07:10 PM
Yeah, have you seen this article (http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=117903) btw? What do you think about it? Is it just bullshit?
I'm familiar with their research and claims but can't say I agree 100%.
Rashev is the closest to the historical truth imo. The dude studied Pliska and Preslav for almost 40 years after all.
But generally Proto-Bulgarians were certainly more Iranic than Turkic but by the end of the day they became Analytical Slavic Bulgarians and that's what matters actually. Even if they were Turks or Finno-Ugrians originally at the time they started their migration from Asia to Europe it is irrelevant to the present outcome.
But generally Proto-Bulgarians were certainly more Iranic than Turkic but by the end of the day they became Analytical Slavic Bulgarians and that's what matters actually. Even if they were Turks or Finno-Ugrians originally at the time they started their migration from Asia to Europe it is irrelevant to the present outcome.
I think they were more Turkic with mild Iranian influence but more or less, i agree what you say here. I am saying they were predominantly Turkic because of the existence of several objects found in Pliska with Turkic runic writings and tamgas, like the animal calendar. Only Iranian element found in early Bulgars was just few Persian words and names, thats all but their language was surely not Indo-European. It was surely Turkic in grammar as i gave examples in earlier pages in this thread.
Btw i was talking about the Bulgars of early medieval era since my first msg here. I am not stupid to claim something like "current Bulgarians are Turks". Don't get me wrong, i am not saying this.
Whoever Bulgars were, it`s ofc irrevelant to the present outcome.
Ariana
03-18-2012, 07:23 PM
I think it's most likely that they were probably Iranians mixed with Slavs. I honestly don't see the Turkic part (whatever it is) at all. Turkic influence only came during the time of the Ottomans who themselves were Anatolians that also only adopted the Turkic culture.
Turkic influence only came during the time of the Ottomans who themselves were Anatolians that also only adopted the Turkic culture.
Wrong !!!
Turkish influence in current Bulgarian language and culture from Ottoman era is easily detectable. We are not only talking about "baklava, dolma, yogurt, kilim" here. There are around ~100 Turkic words and expressions which came from early Bulgars, still exists in Bulgarian language today. If you deny, i can search a bit and give you examples of early Turkic elements in your language which has nothing to do with Ottoman era.
if it was true, they would have a lot more visible Mongoloid influence and wouldn't look like their neigbouring nations, especially like Macedonians
Wrong again !!!
Neither early Bulgars nor early Anatolian Turks was fully mongoloid. Hell, not even Huns were fully mongoloid. This is completely false. Also, you should consider that it`s been more than 1000 years past and obviously they look like their neighbors now, just as we Turks in Anatolia or everyone else in the world. This is a natural process.
For example, if we import few 1000 Ethiopians to Bulgaria today, and come back to find these black people after 1000+ years, you can never find or recognize them. Their visual difference in appearance would be gradually disappear even earlier than 1000 years if they mix with other people.
Hayalet
03-18-2012, 08:17 PM
I honestly don't see the Turkic part (whatever it is) at all.
It's not just a part, it's the base:
Bulgar (also spelled Bolğar, Bulghar) is an extinct language which was spoken by the Bulgars. It was a language belonging to Oghur subgroup of Turkic languages.
Affiliation
Most historians place the Bulgar language it among the "Lir" branch of Turkic languages referred to as Oghur-Turkic, Lir-Turkic, or, indeed, "Bulghar Turkic" as opposed to the "Shaz"-type of Common Turkic. The "Lir" branch is characterized by sound correspondences such as Oghuric r versus Common Turkic (or Shaz-Turkic) z and Oghuric l versus Common Turkic (Shaz-Turkic) š. As was stated by Al-Istakhri "the language of Bulgars resembles the language of Khazars". The only surviving language from this linguistic group is the Chuvash.
On the other hand, some Bulgarian historians, especially modern ones, link the Bulgar language to the Iranian language group instead (more specifically, the Pamir languages are frequently mentioned), noting the presence of Iranic words in the modern Bulgarian language. According to Prof. Raymond Detrez, who is specialist in Bulgarian history and language, such views have arisen in 1980s, and are based on anti-Turkish sentiments. He have maintained that most of Iranian loanwords in modern Bulgarian are result of Ottoman language influence. However, most Bulgarian historians, especially older ones, only point out certain signs of Iranian influence in the Turkic base, or indeed support the Turkic theory.
Danube Bulgar
The language of the Danube Bulgars (or Danube Bulgar) is recorded in a small number of inscriptions, which are found in Pliska, the first capital of Danube Bulgaria and in the rock churches near the village of Murfatlar, present-day Romania. Some of these inscriptions are written with Greek characters, others with runes similar to the Orkhon script. Most of them appear to have a private character (oaths, dedications, inscriptions on grave stones) and some were court inventories. Although attempts at decipherment have been made, none of them has gained wide acceptance. These inscriptions in Danube-Bulgar are found along with other official ones written in Greek. Greek was used as the official state language of Danube Bulgaria until the 9th century, when it was replaced by Old Bulgarian (Slavonic).
The language of the Danube Bulgars is also known from a small number of loanwords in the Old Bulgarian language, as well as terms occurring in Bulgar Greek-language inscriptions, contemporary Byzantine texts, and later Slavonic Old Bulgarian texts. Most of these words designate titles and other concepts concerning the affairs of state, including the official 12-year cyclic calendar (as used e.g. in the Nominalia of the Bulgarian Khans). The language became extinct in Danubian Bulgaria in the 9th century as the Bulgar nobility became gradually Slavicized after the Slavic language was declared as official in 893.
Volga Bulgar
The language spoken by the population of Volga Bulgaria is known as Volga-Bulgar. There are a number of surviving inscriptions in Volga-Bulgar, some of which are written with Arabic letters, alongside the continuing use of Turkic runes. These are all largely decipherable. That language persisted until the 13th or the 14th century. In that region, it may have ultimately given rise to the Chuvash language, which is most closely related to it and which is classified as the only surviving member of a separate "Oghur-Turkic" (or Lir-Turkic) branch of the Turkic languages, to which Bulgar is also considered to have belonged (see above). Still, the precise position of Chuvash within the Oghur family of languages is a matter of dispute among linguists. Since the comparative material attributable to the extinct members of Oghuric (Hunnic, Turkic Avar, Khazar and Bulgar) is scant, little is known about any precise interrelation of these languages and it is a matter of dispute whether Chuvash, the only "Lir"-type language with sufficient extant linguistic material, might be the daughter language of any of these or just a sister branch.
Note that while they are many ways to explain any Iranian influence in modern Bulgarian; such as cognates between Iranian and Slavic, Iranian influence on Slavs, Iranian influence on Bulgars or Persian influence from Ottoman Turkish; they are few ways to explain Turkic influences.
And indeed, taking a look at a political map of the post-Hunnic Pontic steppe, there is no great mystery surrounding Bulgars:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Pontic_steppe_region_around_650_AD.png
For the record, Mongols have nothing whatsoever to do with this wave of Turkic migration.
Lastly, make no mistake, that Bulgars were Turkic doesn't mean modern Bulgarians are somehow a mixture of Turks and Slavs; they are only perfectly Slavs.
Ariana
03-18-2012, 08:22 PM
^Then maybe they were just mostly Slavs who were being ruled by a group of Iranic elite. That probably makes the most sense anyway.
On the other hand, some Bulgarian historians, especially modern ones, link the Bulgar language to the Iranian language group instead (more specifically, the Pamir languages are frequently mentioned), noting the presence of Iranic words in the modern Bulgarian language.[13][14][15][16]
morski
03-18-2012, 08:27 PM
Wrong !!!
Turkish influence in current Bulgarian language and culture from Ottoman era is easily detectable. We are not only talking about "baklava, dolma, yogurt, kilim" here. There are around ~100 Turkic words and expressions which came from early Bulgars, still exists in Bulgarian language today. If you deny, i can search a bit and give you examples of early Turkic elements in your language which has nothing to do with Ottoman era.
I'd like to see a source backing this claim. To my knowledge there are no more than several words that can be ascribed to the Bulgar's language and those are dubious as well.
A troll, he can't speak bulgarian too, besides in Petrich there are no turks :laugh:
i think he is not turks , but from a nation a few kilometers to the west from petrich , tito loved that place i'm talking about
Hayalet
03-18-2012, 08:36 PM
^Then maybe they were just mostly Slavs who were being ruled by a group of Iranic elite. That probably makes the most sense anyway.
No, they belong to the post-Hunnic world (onward from the 6th century) where Iranians in the Pontic steppe were no more.
http://thelosttreasurechest.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/alan-and-sarmatian-attacked-by-hun-late-4th-century.jpg?w=900
Kanuni
03-19-2012, 07:41 AM
P.S: Padre Organtino and Leo, quit blabbering about being native to Anatolia&Balkans or not. Neither me nor anyone in Turkey cares about such bullshit. This nativity games and "i am more ancient than you, rawrr" crap are for narrow-minded people with no political power. Turks came here by the right of conquer and we are here for 1000+ years. We welcome anyone who wants to defy that. No one claims to be 10.000 year old natives here, thats what you Albanians, Armenians and Greeks claims.
So cut crap about being indigenous or not. I simply don't care.
https://static.flashback.org/img/smilies2/whoco5.gif
Do vcera Stojan sega Hakan i mi prodavas um tuka be smrdlivko.
As if we do care either,read your previous posts idiot you are the one who is trying to push them as natives.
Didn't you said that Turks from Thrace speak the language of Kubrat and not Bulgarians?
And you didn't came as conqueror smartass your ancestors were peasants living in this lands and you have recently adopted Turkish identity,what a sad case you are eitherway Turkics have nothing to do in Balkans they were/are and will be foreigners.
Yeah, even the Bulgar elite were probably mixed Turkic-Iranics, a lot of the names of the pre-Christian archonts are actually Iranic like Asparukh and Presian- and not Turkic, some of them even have Slavic names - Malamir, Enravota... so they were a mixed bag and their lingua franca was Slavic.
Weren't Omurtag's wife and Malamir and Enarvota's mother a Slav?
Anyway, I doubt there were many Slavs in the migrating Bulgarian groups. The primal source of interaction between Slavs and Bulgarians was on the Balkans where they lived together since 6th century.
I think they were more Turkic with mild Iranian influence but more or less, i agree what you say here. I am saying they were predominantly Turkic because of the existence of several objects found in Pliska with Turkic runic writings and tamgas, like the animal calendar. Only Iranian element found in early Bulgars was just few Persian words and names, thats all but their language was surely not Indo-European. It was surely Turkic in grammar as i gave examples in earlier pages in this thread.
Turkic runes? Animal calendar? Bulgarian calendar was different from ancient Turkic calendars. And how can you be sure that the only script found (written on ancient Bulgarian?) is authentic? Are you aware how many scientific works in the field has been frauded by the communists? Do you know how many artefacts were burned by Greeks and Turks before that?
morski
03-19-2012, 12:34 PM
Weren't Omurtag's wife and Malamir and Enarvota's mother a Slav?
Anyway, I doubt there were many Slavs in the migrating Bulgarian groups. The primal source of interaction between Slavs and Bulgarians was on the Balkans where they lived together since 6th century.
Turkic runes? Animal calendar? Bulgarian calendar was different from ancient Turkic calendars. And how can you be sure that the only script found (written on ancient Bulgarian?) is authentic? Are you aware how many scientific works in the field has been frauded by the communists? Do you know how many artefacts were burned by Greeks and Turks before that?
That's what prof. Rashev says and for me he's the paramount authority on the matter.;)
The Bulgars themselves in their entirety were basically Slavic at the time they established the FBE.
I'd like to see a source backing this claim. To my knowledge there are no more than several words that can be ascribed to the Bulgar's language and those are dubious as well.
I saw several different websites who listed those Turkic words coming from Bulgars to today`s modern Bulgarian language but i couldn't find these web site now.
I remember few words tough, like "obichem" meaning "to love" in Bulgarian but this is actually coming from the common Turkic word "öp" meaning "to kiss". Also the word "kuçu, kuchu" meaning "dog, dog puppies" is Turkic too. No need to mention "yoghurt". I believe that Bulgarians already knew yoghurt from Eurasia days of Bulgars, you didnt learn from us in Ottoman era. Yoghurt is already a common meal of all the early medieval Eurasian people. The word "Kes" meaning short, to cut. "Levent" meaning hero is also a male name for Turkic people. And "Sopa, chomack", meaning "stick". "Chapa" meaning mattock. "Bash, Bashta" meaning head, father, ruler...
The problem is i cant speak Bulgarian but if you really wanna find out the words came to you from early Bulgars just do this;
Write Bulgarian terminology related with horse, horse riding, animal livestock, agriculture, vegetables, fruits, tree, flower names. Especially try to find archaic words in Bulgarian which doesn't exists in other slavic languages like Russian, Polish.
Search google in your native language for Hungarian-Bulgarian common words and write here (because most of the Hungarian agriculture and horse terminology is from common Turkic. If you find common words with Hungarian, then it`s probably from Turkic)
English orthography would be easier for me but write in Cyrillic if you want, then i can convert it to Latin from websites.
Btw, i am a PHD student in medieval history and my early Turkic vocabulary is not bad, so if you do that, i am sure that i can find few Turkic words in it because i saw before, it exists.
Turkic runes? Animal calendar? Bulgarian calendar was different from ancient Turkic calendars. And how can you be sure that the only script found (written on ancient Bulgarian?) is authentic? Are you aware how many scientific works in the field has been frauded by the communists? Do you know how many artefacts were burned by Greeks and Turks before that?
Feuerfrei, you don't know anything about this matter, it`s so obvious. You better stay out from this but anyway...
The oldest script found in Pliska and all over Balkans where Bulgars reached was Turkic runic script. Then they started to use Greek script but still wrote Turkic and Cyrillic afterwards. This is also attested in several other places than Pliska, like Basarabai cave monastry. Go back to 1st page in this thread, read about Basarabai, take a look at pictures. Read the article of Florin Curta.
This is the Turkic animal calendar from 5-6-7th century;
http://img03.blogcu.com/images/d/e/r/derskaynakcam/253a55d99ff1335e11fb304bc6754067_1315934314.jpg
This is the Bulgar animal calendar found in Pliska;
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/25Bulgars/TurkicCalendar.gif
The words in red is translation from runic script to Latin. You can see that the calendar is quite similar Turkic one and some words on it is Turkic too. It`s quite same as the Turkic one above.
morski
03-19-2012, 04:28 PM
I saw several different websites who listed those Turkic words coming from Bulgars to today`s modern Bulgarian language but i couldn't find these web site now.
I remember few words tough, like "obichem" meaning "to love" in Bulgarian but this is actually coming from the common Turkic word "öp" meaning "to kiss". Also the word "kuçu, kuchu" meaning "dog, dog puppies" is Turkic too. No need to mention "yoghurt". I believe that Bulgarians already knew yoghurt from Eurasia days of Bulgars, you didnt learn from us in Ottoman era. Yoghurt is already a common meal of all the early medieval Eurasian people. The word "Kes" meaning short, to cut. "Levent" meaning hero is also a male name for Turkic people. And "Sopa, chomack", meaning "stick". "Chapa" meaning mattock. "Bash, Bashta" meaning head, father, ruler...
The problem is i cant speak Bulgarian but if you really wanna find out the words came to you from early Bulgars just do this;
Write Bulgarian terminology related with horse, horse riding, animal livestock, agriculture, vegetables, fruits, tree, flower names. Especially try to find archaic words in Bulgarian which doesn't exists in other slavic languages like Russian, Polish.
Search google in your native language for Hungarian-Bulgarian common words and write here (because most of the Hungarian agriculture and horse terminology is from common Turkic. If you find common words with Hungarian, then it`s probably from Turkic)
English orthography would be easier for me but write in Cyrillic if you want, then i can convert it to Latin from websites.
Btw, i am a PHD student in medieval history and my early Turkic vocabulary is not bad, so if you do that, i am sure that i can find few Turkic words in it because i saw before, it exists.
We use kiselo mlyako for yoghurt.:)
Off the top of my head the Bulgar relics in modern Bulgarian are sopa (correct), biser, beleg, kapishte, pechat, kniga and maybe babrek...
Lately a lot of studies on Iranic words in modern Bulgarian were published. They claim the Iranic relics in our language are much more numerous than Turkic, but that's not my area of expertise so... won't claim anything to be right just because I like it to be.:D
Feuerfrei, you don't know anything about this matter, it`s so obvious. You better stay out from this but anyway...
Believe me, I know much more on the topic than you :rolleyes2:
The oldest script found in Pliska and all over Balkans where Bulgars reached was Turkic runic script. Then they started to use Greek script but still wrote Turkic and Cyrillic afterwards.
The only evidence about Bulgarians speaking Turkic language is a monument with Turkic words on it written with Greek letters.
Moreover, Bulgarian runes were similar to Scythian runes. It is very possible Turkic runes you are talking about to be influenced by Iranic runes, since Iranic tribes were much more advanced culturally than Turkics.
The words in red is translation from runic script to Latin. You can see that the calendar is quite similar Turkic one and some words on it is Turkic too. It`s quite same as the Turkic one above.
So was Zoroastrian calendar...
What about religion of Bulgarians? Don't you know there are much more evidences that majority of Bulgarians were actually Zoroastrians or Christians, not Tengriists?
Lately a lot of studies on Iranic words in modern Bulgarian were published. They claim the Iranic relics in our language are much more numerous than Turkic, but that's not my area of expertise so... won't claim anything to be right just because I like it to be.:D
Most Iranic words in modern Slavic languages can be explained with the possibility of partial Scytho-Sarmatian origin of Slavs...still, Iranic words in modern Bulgarian can be of ancient Bulgarian origin because of what later studies claim.
We use kiselo mlyako for yoghurt.:)
Off the top of my head the Bulgar relics in modern Bulgarian are sopa (correct), biser, beleg, kapishte, pechat, kniga and maybe babrek...
Lately a lot of studies on Iranic words in modern Bulgarian were published. They claim the Iranic relics in our language are much more numerous than Turkic, but that's not my area of expertise so... won't claim anything to be right just because I like it to be.:D
You don't use "yoghurt" while whole world uses it? :)
You only wrote 7 words here and i immediately recognized two of them. "Bobrek (kidney), "Sopa (stick)" is Turkish (coming from common Turkic). You don't think like you learned Sopa and Bobrek from Ottoman era, or do you? You cant categorize these words with Ottoman borrowings like "baklava, borek".
Write more bulgarian specific words which doesn't exists in other slavic languages, there are many more coming from Bulgar era, should be around ~100.
Sorry but latest Bulgarian attempts to Iranize early Bulgars are just futile. They cant revise the 1000+ year old history, chronicles and other proofs. They use some Ottoman era borrowings which ultimately comes from Persian and they say "hey look, we have more Iranian words". Probably these are just attempts to ease nationalists like VMRO, ATAKA, directed to these people because they cant bear the idea of Bulgars being Turks even if it was more than 1000 years ago.
Also if early Bulgars was supposedly Iranians speaking IE language, then why your distant cousins in Volga Bulgaria speaks Turkic? There are muslim travelers gone to Volga region as early as 9th century and they were speaking Turkic at that time. I mean, if they were speaking Turkic in 9th century, then how come the Bulgars gone from Volga to Danube about ~100 years ago speaks Iranian? This is not logic.
I gave examples of early Bulgar grammar. This cant be an Iranian language and you don't even need to be an expert to say this because Turkic and Iranian languages are completely different from each other. It`s quite obvious;
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=781347&postcount=17
Sorry but latest Bulgarian attempts to Iranize early Bulgars are just futile. They cant revise the 1000+ year old history, chronicles and other proofs. They use some Ottoman era borrowings which ultimately comes from Persian and they say "hey look, we have more Iranian words". Probably these are just attempts to ease nationalists like VMRO, ATAKA, directed to these people because they cant bear the idea of Bulgars being Turks even if it was more than 1000 years ago.
Don't know about the latest attempts for Iranizing ancient Bulgarians, but your attempts to Turkify them are really dumb :rolleyes:
Also if early Bulgars was supposedly Iranians speaking IE language, then why your distant cousins in Volga Bulgaria speaks Turkic? There are muslim travelers gone to Volga region as early as 9th century and they were speaking Turkic at that time. I mean, if they were speaking Turkic in 9th century, then how come the Bulgars gone from Volga to Danube about ~100 years ago speaks Iranian? This is not logic.
Because Volga Bulgars speak the language of Kumano-Kipchak invaders.
Don't know about the latest attempts for Iranizing ancient Bulgarians, but your attempts to Turkify them are really dumb :rolleyes:
You are an idiot.
I posted two different Byzantine chronicles from 8-9th century and i posted autobiography of St. Cyril&Methodious. All of them says that Bulgars are Huns/Turks, akin to Khazars, Bulgars in Volga.
If you have problem with it, then don't tell me that i am trying to Turkify you, go blame Cyril&Methodious and 8th century Byzantine scholars, not me.
If wanna unleash your rage, go kill Prof. Tzvetkov and Rashev for writing these about Bulgars, destroy the Bulgar remains with Turkic words in your museum and say to yourself that you are an Iranian from Afghanistan, 10 times before going to sleep.
I will just ignore you from now on and you better ignore me too, i don't wanna deal with your stupidity.
You are an idiot.
I posted two different Byzantine chronicles from 8-9th century and i posted autobiography of St. Cyril&Methodious. All of them says that Bulgars are Huns/Turks, akin to Khazars, Bulgars in Volga.
If you have problem with it, then don't tell me that i am trying to Turkify you, go blame Cyril&Methodious and 8th century Byzantine scholars, not me.
I will just ignore you from now on and you better ignore me too, i don't wanna deal with your stupidity.
Getting butthurted, aren't you? :D
Europa
03-19-2012, 05:25 PM
you are an idiot.
I posted two different byzantine chronicles from 8-9th century and i posted autobiography of st. Cyril&methodious. All of them says that bulgars are huns/turks, akin to khazars, bulgars in volga.
If you have problem with it, then don't tell me that i am trying to turkify you, go blame cyril&methodious and 8th century byzantine scholars, not me.
If wanna unleash your rage, go kill prof. Tzvetkov and rashev for writing these about bulgars, destroy the bulgar remains with turkic words in your museum and say to yourself that you are an iranian from afghanistan, 10 times before going to sleep.
I will just ignore you from now on and you better ignore me too, i don't wanna deal with your stupidity.
Ей рязаната карабина си е рязана...баси и мангала
Ariana
03-19-2012, 07:42 PM
Asparukh, the founder and leader of the Bulgars was far before any Ottoman Turk came into existence. How do you explain that Onur? This was over 600 years before the Ottomans.
hajduk
03-19-2012, 07:43 PM
Ancient Bulgarians are of the Iranic branch. Anyone who tells otherwise is a blatant liar, and for all enemies to Bulgaria - death
Ancient Bulgarians are of the Iranic branch. Anyone who tells otherwise is a blatant liar, and for all enemies to Bulgaria - death
Take it easy.
Ariana
03-19-2012, 08:26 PM
Ancient Bulgarians are of the Iranic branch. Anyone who tells otherwise is a blatant liar, and for all enemies to Bulgaria - death
Not entirely, probably a very small ruling elite were Iranian or as some others believe Turkic which disappeared very early in Bulgar history anyway. Most Bulgarians are slavs/anatolians.
hajduk
03-19-2012, 08:45 PM
Not entirely, probably a very small ruling elite were Iranian which disappeared very early in Bulgar history anyway. Most Bulgarians are slavs/anatolians.
Just like you are a gypsy
Morski, i remembered that you asked me for a source about the existence of Turkic words predating the Ottoman era. I found this in my old bookmarks. This is an article of Bulgarian historian Yaroslav Stoyanov about Cuman, Pecheneg and Bulgar names found in Bulgaria in 15th century.
Cumanian Anthroponymics in Bulgaria during the 15th Century
In the early Ottoman registers there are many Bulgarian names with Turkic, but Non-Ottoman origin. They can be attributed to the Pre-Ottoman Turkic peoples, who settled down in the Balkan area during the Middle Ages. The most of these personal names are usually considered by the Bulgarian scholars as ones with Slavic etymology. But in fact they have counterparts in many popular Cumanian names, or can be explain from Turkish. This article, which is a part of a large, as yet unpublished study about the Oriental influences on the Bulgarian anthroponymics, offers examples of probably Cumanian and Pechenegian names, used by the Bulgarians during the first centuries of the Ottoman rule.
For the purpose of the investigation data was examined from the already published onomastic materials in the Fontes Turcici Historiae Bulgaricae (FTHB). The attention was drawn on the personal names of dwellers from Bulgarian villages and districts[1], who were sometimes explicitly noted as ‘infidel’ (Pers. gäbrān, ), as well as on names of Voynuks, who were at that time recruited exclusively from the local Christian population. And if one finds among them Non-Slavic, Non-Greek and Non-Christian names of possible Turkic or Iranian origin, they must be linked with the most probably to the (Proto)Bulgarian ant to the Cumanian or Pechenegian name-tradition, whose bearers were absorbed into the medieval Bulgarian people. As the time passed some of these names entered durably into the Bulgarian onomastics and do not testify necessarily any particular ethnic origin. There are Slavic etymologies, frequently offered to them, and only a broad linguistic analysis can suggest more different possible interpretations. In other cases the use of such names is limited in time and space, reflecting a practice, already dying away. They are often combined with customary Bulgarian (Slavic) names and this fact speaks about the advanced stage of Bulgarization of their bearers. Last but not least the preservation of such forms in the 15th century is also due to the characteristic of the patriarchal society „reproducing“ of old names, whereby the new-borne kid received the name of his grandfather or of an other ancestor of the family. So was made a bridge over the generations and sometimes this is the only sign of their possible Turkic origin.
In the research are comprised arbitrary selected names, fixed in the Ottoman registers along the formula „X, son (or brother, or son-in-law) of Y“, or through the more rarely appeared variant „X - Y“, where the „X“ means the proper name and the „Y“ reflects the father’s name of the registered person.
One of the most spread appellations with such an origin is Kuman () with variants Kumanin () and Kumano (). The adherents of the Slavic etymology derive the name from the Old Bulg. ‘godfather; who wed someone’ (from Kum + -an)[2], whereas other scholars associate it quite right with the designation of the people Cumans [3]. In the European sources the name appeared in the 11th century simultaneous with its bearers[4] (the Russian chronicles noted it under 1096)[5], but still about the year 388 a. d. the Chinese sources mention the pastoral tribe K’uo-muo-γiei, which name is juxtaposed by some authors with that of the later Cumans[6]. It was found as genonymous in many Turkic peoples: the clan Koman par example was existed amongst the Crimean Caraims[7], the clan Komanğelair belonged to the tribe Argun, a branch of the Kara-Kirghiz, whereas one other tribe, Kumanay, belonged to the Middle Horde[8]. A variant is the tribe name Kumandur, similar to the Kirghizian name Mongoldur and to the Crimean Mogoldur from Mongol[9], who appears also amongst the Romanian noble names in documents from the 15th and 16th centuries[10]. We find more distant forms of this appellation in Kubandď and Tôn-Kubandď - two tribes of the Kumandi-people in Altai[11].
As a personal name Kuman is pretty known in the entire territory, inhabited once by the Cumans. In the Russian Hypatian chronicle one finds a Polovtsian, named Коуманъ (1103). Three Коуманъ’s, including someone „Valakhian“, figure among the peasants, who were given to the monastery of Ziče in Montenegro with a charter of the Serbia’s King Stefan (1222-1228)[12]. The family Komani from the Valakhian inhabitants of the medieval town of Pijanici (in to-day’s Kosovo) and another one „Valakhian“ family Komanic amongst the residents of „Katun Bariljevski“ (now village Barilevë, in Kosovo) are mentioned in a charter of the Holy Stephan (the 30 years of the 14th century)[13]. One eminent Bulgarian Κόμανος note to the end of the same century the Byzantine sources, too[14]. We find this patronymic in Hungarian documents among the names of Valakhian chieftains (knez’es), who immigrated into Hungary: Komán (1424), Kuman (1428), Koman (1434); the name is proper to the Romanian onomasticon from the 15th century onwards, too: a Gypsy Команъ(1458), Koman Kure (1460), попu Команu (1482-96), Данчюл сынь Команωв (1489), a Gypsy Команча (1487), Коман (1511), Coman, Cuman (1623), Coman Grigorie, Coman Matiei (18th c.) etc.[15]
Whether direct from the ethnic name or secondary through the anthroponymous, shaped from it, the name of the Cumans left traces on the pretty vast territory. One place near Baku and another one in the land, inhabited by the Turkmens, as well as one river in Turkestan, bear the name Kuman[16]. In the Ukraine the place-name (Г)Уман was probably received from the Polovtsians[17]. Extreme numerous are the derivatives of this name in Moldavia, Romania and in the whole domain of the formerly Valakhian settlements in Hungary. As a toponymous one finds the name Coman(ul) in the department of Ilfov (Bacău). So was called a hill in Oltenia in the area of the town of Balş, as well as a village on the bank of the river Olt opposite to the village Batia in the northern part of the valley between Olt and Teleorman[18]. Cetatea lui Coman was probably the old name of the contemporary village Cetatea, mentioned in a document from 1625 and disposed in Oltenia west of Jiu[19]. Comania is a pretty spread toponymous in Romania[20], for instance in the departments Buzău and Teleorman[21], as well as a name of a village on the northern frontier of Burnaz and of a swampy lake in the interior of the old „raďa Giurgiu“[22]. Comanica is the name of one village east of the plain of Cîmpul Romanaţilor and southern of the town of Balş; a name of a little river in the area of Teleorman, eastern of the river Olt; as well as a name of now extinct village (1512) near the town of Dorobanţu in the same region[23]. Comanecei figure in the Romanian toponyms Cîmpa Comanecei and Valea Comanecei[24]. Comandareşti is a name of another Romanian village[25]. In the department of Prahova one finds the toponymous Comăneanca, in the department of Teleorman - Comăneanul, and in the department of Dolj (Brăila, Buzău) - Comăneasa[26]. One village in Oltenia, again in the region of Balş, is called Comăneşti; that is the formerly name of the village Costeşti in the area of Teleorman, too[27]. The village Comani, situated before Calafat and after Vidin, forms nowadays a part of the settlement Golenţi. In a document from 1385 it was called Vadul Cumanilor, ‘Cumanian ford’. The village was situated in the region Fundul Diiului, known from the Cumanian invasions in Byzantium in 1114, as the Emperor Alexios Comnen came to Vidin and send against them an army over the river. The same name took another formerly village (1579) in the region of Teleorman[28]. Comanii is a component of the toponymous Comanii Vechi[29]. Comăniţa is a tributary of the little river Teslui in the northern part of the valley between Olt and Teleorman[30]. In the Hungarian documents are fixed settlement-names Kumanpataka (1358), Comanfalua (1369) and Kományfalva (1439, to the town of Vílágos)[31]. We find the toponymous Komane between Tissa and the canal of Bega[32]. One town in the region of Pukë on the mountain slopes of the valley of the river Drin in Northern Albania is called Komani (without an enclitic article: Koman)[33]. In the Middle Ages in the vicinity of the nowadays town of Prishtina (Kosovo) was situated the village Komanovo, which was gifted by Stefan Uroš Dečanski to the monastery of Hilendar (1327). Again near Prishtina was found another one village Kumanovo, mentioned in a charter of King Stefan Dušan from 1330 under the dominions of the new monastery of Dečan[34]. It disappeared without traces during the Ottoman times, but some researchers identify it with the nowadays village Llapnasellë in Kosovo[35]. Kumanić is the name of a village, situated near Tikveš, and Kumaničevo is a name of a great settlement in the region of Kostur, Macedonia[36]. One village Kumanič is known in the region of Nevrokop, another village in the region of Kaylare bore the name Kuman, and in the Northeast of Skopje there is a big city Kumanovo. The name of the village Kubratovo near Sofia was once Kumanica (Kumaniče in the Ottoman documents)[37]. Such is the name also of another unidentified village () from the same region[38], of a village in the register for land dominions from the time of the Sultan Mehmed the Conqueror[39], of the undetermined village Kumanci (Kumaniče )[40] and of a village Kumanič (Kumaniče ), belonged to the Hortach or Horyatis, the region of Thessaloniki[41], in the Ottoman defters from the end of the 15th century. A quarter near the village Zimevica in the region of Sofia was called Cumanova Čuka. In the district of Tărnovo there were cottages Kumanite and Kumanovci; another cottages named Kumanica were situated near the village of Karash (in the region of Lukovit); in the vicinity of Părsha (the region of Tărnovo) existed a quarter Kumanovci and near the village Buchukovtsi (the region of Dryanovo) there was another quarter Kumanite[42]. All these testify the wide diffusion of the Cumanian ethnonymous not only in the Moldo-Valakhia, but also in Bulgaria and in the more western regions of the Balkan peninsula.
We see this frequency of the name also in the 15th-16th centuries Ottoman registers. It is certainly one of the most used anthroponymous, related to the Cumans: 69 of all investigated examples contain the name Kuman, 4 of them have the form Kumanin and in 3 cases appears the form Kumano. They are known from the whole ethnic territory of the Bulgarians, so in the areas of Shumen, Tărnovo, Nikopol, Pleven, Vratsa and Vidin; in the districts of Sofia, Pernik and Samokov; in the regions of Plovdiv and Razlog; in the present-day Macedonia and Yugoslavia, as well as in the area of Thessaloniki and Drama in Greece. Especially widespread was this name in the region of Pleven and in Panagyurishte, too. The last settlement was once a village of Voynuks, that showed a relatively high per cent of names with a probably Turkic-Persian origin. But this anthroponymous was combined almost always with traditional Bulgarian names (Stoyan, Nikola, Dragan, Dobre etc.), what shows us, that in the period in question it was firmly entered into the Bulgarian onomasticon and was not be considered as alien. Jordan Zaimov relates its first appearance in Bulgaria to the 13th century; two centuries later was noted the female name Kumana and the diminutive form Kumanka, derived from it. The Ottoman registers do not give us an opportunity for such conclusions. But therein are found the derivatives Kumanina (from Kuman-in + -a), Kuma (abbreviated from Kum-an, respectively Kum- + -a)[43], Kumalin (from Kum-a + -lin, or Kum-al- + -in), Kumalič (similar to Kumalin: Kum-a + -lič, or Kum-al- + -ič), Kumo, Kumyo (analogous to Kuma: abbreviated from Kum-an, respectively Kum- + -o/-yo), Kumčo (diminutive from Kum-o, Kum-a < Kum-an, or Kum- + -čo), Kumli (from Kum-an > Kum- + -li), as well as the uncommon for Bulgaria name Kunbek, which turns on the attention to another possible variant of the Cumanian ethnonymous.
Similar to Uzbek, Janibek, Berdibek and other names from the history of the Golden Horde, Kunbek is also a two-component appellation. It contains as a second element the old noble title bek (Old Turkic bäg; Chag., Uzb., N.Uigh. bäk, bek; Selj., Karakhan. bäg, beg; Osm. beg, bey; Uigh. päk; Shor., Sagay., Koybal. päġ; Kaz., Kirgh. bī; Tel., Leb. pī etc.), which general means ‘prince, chieftain of a separate tribe, dignitary’ and in a wide sense ‘nobleman’ or ‘superior’. It is found only twice in the used source material - in Kunbek Vlayu from the village Karnofol (Voysil, the region of Plovdiv) and in Gergi Kunbek from the village Sariche (Tsaratsovo, the region of Plovdiv)[44]. His combining with Bulgarian names and the existence of a Kipchak form for the title bek instead of the Oghuzian variant on -g > -y excludes any possibly penetration of the anthroponymous through the Ottoman influence. It must have been rather borrowed from the Tartars or from those Cumans, who already became under Mongolian domination allies to the Valakhian chieftain Basarab Vodă and to the Bulgarian Tsar Mikhail Shishman against Byzantium and the Serbia’s rulers.
It is interesting the first component of this name - Kun, reminding of the Hungarian designation of the Cumans - Kūn-ok (plural from Kūn), which was rendered in Latin as Cuni (from Cunos). In the Latin-Hungarian sources therewith was named not only the Cumans (Kipchaks), but also the Kabars, the Oghuz and the Pechenegs[45]. Later, during the 13th century, diffused in Hungary the learned term Cumani or Comani, so that the word Kun remained in the common speech mostly as a designation of the Cumans, who get a refuge in the country after the Mongolian invasion. According to one observation, traces from the name Kun are found chiefly in the toponymics of the lands, crossed by the Hungarian King Laszlo the Great (1342-1382), in whose army there were many Cumanian warriors (cf. par example Kunova Teplica in Slovakia, Kunowice in Poland, Kunovec between the rivers Drava and Sava), whereas in other lands - in Voyvodina, Macedonia, Serbia, Romania etc. - we find mostly place-names, derived from the ethnonymous Kuman, as used by the Kipchaks themselves[46]. There are many hypotheses about the meaning and the etymology of the name Kun (Qun). Some authors juxtapose it with the name of the people Qūn, known from the Islamic sources (e. g. by Bērūnī and ’Aufī), who, before his invasion in the land of the so called Sārī (or Ṣarď), lived once eastern of the Kirghiz. Others think it as a shortened form from Kuman (Quman) or Kuban (Quban), whereas a third part of scholars derive all such names from a common Altaic root *qu- > *qu-m; *qu-ba, *qu-wa[47]. What ever may its origin be, for us is more important the very fact of the existence of the ethnonymous Kun, by which the name Kunbek could be interpret as „Bek of the Kuns“ (from ‘kun-i bek’), or as the proper-name „Kuni-bek“ (like „Beg Kune“ or „Kuno Bey“).
These names (Kuno, Kune, Kuni etc.) figure in the Ottoman registers. We find therein also the toponymous Kunina () for the village Kunino (the region of Vratsa), that comprised to the middle of the 15th century 21 Christian and 1 Moslem households[48], and which name descends either from the ethnonymous Kun or better from the patronymic Kunin (Kun-in), derived from it. The most spread of the above forms is Kuno (), which Ottoman writing allows the reading Kono, too. Very often is found the form Kune (), more seldom Kuni (), both of them considered as diminutives from Kuno. Pretty known are the variants Kunčo, Kunko or Kunkyo (diminutives from Kun-o), Kunin (from Kun-o + -in) and Kunkin (diminutive of Kun-in), but they have a relatively limited use. All of them are derivatives of Kuno. And although there are adequate explanations about the origin of this name[49], the spread of the enumerated forms chiefly in North-western and Western Bulgaria (in the areas of Vidin, Pleven, Lovech, as well as in the regions of Pernik and Sofia) and the mention of a Polovtsian Кунуй in the Russian sources[50], make probably to associate the anthroponymous Kuno (Kun-o) and Kunin (Kun-in) with the ethnic name Kun. It is true, that so far it was not found any existence of the initial form *Kun, but this could be done to its originally penetration in a relatively small area, from which, now on Bulgarian soil, arose the derivatives, arrived to us.
One proved Cumanian name, found in the Ottoman registers, is Derman () with variants Durman and Dărman, sometimes falsely deciphered as „Damyan“. According to J. Zaimov Derman is a shortened form of Deriman (< Derim + -an; wherein Derim was shortened of Derimir, which derived from the verb dera ‘to fight, to struggle’) and Dărman is a combination between Dărmo (< dărma ‘thick wood, brushwood’) and -an[51]. He relates the both forms respectively to the 15th and 16th centuries, but still during the 13th century in the Hungarian sources was fixed the Cumanian anthroponymous Dorman[us] or Derman[us] (1285), later also Dormani (1340), Dormánháza (1406; later Dormánd), the family Dormánházi (1406), Dormán (1477) etc.[52] It is possible, that the form Dormanus in the medieval Hungarian chronicles was an error of the copyist instead of Derman[53], but more probably it re-creates the Turkic name Durman (< dur-/tur- ‘to stand, to stop, to remain; to dwell, to inhabit’ + -man), from which are developed the other phonetic variants. Durman is known as a toponymous on about 50 km northern of Hiva; Turman is the name of a village in Northern Crimea and Dorman was the name of a Turkic tribe, lived under the Mongols[54]. Dorman or Dărman was called the governor of the Branichevo-region, subjected to the Bulgarian Tsar Georg Ist Terter (1280-1292). We find the same name on the territory of Moldavia and Valakhia, cf. дочка Петра Дръмана (1499), Dărman căpitan (1563), Jonasco Dărman (1636)[55], as well as a patronymic in Albania, cf. Leka and Pavli, sons of someone Dermani; Andreja, Lleshi and Gura, sons of another Dermani in the first detailed register (defter-i mufaṣṣal) of the Sanjak of Shkodra (1485)[56]. The appellation figure in the toponomy, so as Дръмънещи (1499) or Dărmăneşti - designations of three villages in Romania: the one of which in the valley of the stream Tatros in the environs of the village Comăneşti, the other near the town of Suceava and the third between the towns of Târgovişte and Ploieşti, hence in the area, where is disposed the settlement Comarnic, too[57]. Here belongs also the Bulgarian village Dermanci (Dermanče in Ottoman records), that is Dărmantsi in the region of Vratsa and Dermantsi, situated in the valley of the river Vit, like the village Komarevo, for which name one supposes eventual Cumanian origin, too[58]. The used source material allows the wary conclusion, that in the 15th century the anthroponymous was partly spread in Northern Bulgaria and in the district of Sofia, whereby in the following century we find it already also in the region of Plovdiv (in Kalofer).
Another Cumanian name is Šišman (), also Šušman (), written sometimes without diacritical dots as Susman (). The both forms of the anthroponymous are pretty known in the Byzantine sources - Σίσμανος and Σούσμανος[59]. The scholars are unanimous about its Turkic etymology (< šišman ‘fat, thick; fatman’ < šiš ‘swell, swelling’ or < šiš- ‘to swell’ + -man)[60]. The most early data about this appellation are connected with the Cumanian in his ethnic origin despot of Vidin - Šišman, ancestor of the last medieval Bulgarian dynasty, comprised Mikhail IIIrd Shishman (1323-1330) and his brother Belaur; Ivan Stefan [Shishman] (1330-1331) and his brother Shishman; Ivan Alexander (1331-1371) and his sons - the tsars of Tărnovo and of Vidin Ivan Shishman (1371-1393) and Ivan Sratsimir (1371-1396)[61]. The name was formerly more spread, cf. the abbreviated forms Šiša and Šišo, their derivatives Šiška and Šiško, as well as the settlement-names Šišmanovo, Šišenci and Šiškovci. It was found in neighbouring to Bulgaria lands, too. In Moldo-Valakhia par example are registered the both variants: Шишман (1431) and Шушман (1485), Шuшман (1470, 1488)[62]. In Hungary are known many Valakhian „knez’es“, named Šyšman, especially in the region Hátszeg: Stefanos Susman de Bozas (1452), Stefani filij Sysman de Bozijas (1457), Sandrinus Sysman (1470), Susman (1494, 1507, 1511, 1514, 1519), the family Sismánfi; the name is laid down also in the appellation „praedium Sismány“ (1700) by the formerly Cumanian settlement near Előszállás in the Comitat Fejér (cf. the later Alsó and Felső-Sismánd, west of Hercegfalva)[63]. As a place-name it is noted in Albania, too - Shishmançi (Albanian transcription of Šišmānği) in the first detailed register of the Sanjak of Shkodra (1485). During the census there lived also someone Leka, son of Shishmani (Šišmāni)[64]. The Ottoman records from the Bulgarian lands show, that the most widespread was the form Šišman, followed by Šušman and the shortened variants Šišo (< Šiš-man + -o; respectively Šiš + -o) and Šušle (Šiš-man + -le). These appellations are found mostly in the regions of Tărnovo, Pleven, Sofia and partly in the area of Plovdiv (so in Kalofer), too.
There are serious reasons for the supposition, that the name Dušman (), more seldom Dušmano (), so often found amongst the Bulgarian Christians[65], has a Pre-Ottoman Turkic origin. By the translation of the corresponding data it was sometimes falsely read as „Dušan“, in spite of the existence of the letter Mīm (m) in the Ottoman writing of the word. Its general meaning ‘enemy, adversary, one who wishes evil to others’ excludes the possibility of the penetration of the name in Bulgarian through the Ottoman influence. In addition comes the circumstance, that still before the Turkish invasion on the Balkans in a charter of King Stefan Dušan for the foundation of the monastery of Dečan (1330) figure someone „Valakhian“, named Dušman. On the other hand, one Albanian family Dushmani (Dušmani), in vassalage to the feudal senior Balshë from the region of Shkodra, is mentioned also in the Venetian charters from the middle of the 14th century, that is before 1385, when the Ottomans set foot for the first time in Albania as allies of Karl Thopia. There again, in the region of Pukë in Northern Albania, not far from the town of Komani, is situated also the town of Dushmani (without an enclitic article - Dushman), which name was probably adopted by the quondam lord of the region. Later during the first Ottoman registration of the Sanjak of Shkodra the old fief of the family Dushmani was separated in a single administrative unity, named Dušman-ili nahiye[66]. All this, as well as the existence of a Polovtsian, named Тошманъ in the Hypatian chronicle[67], refers to the possible Cumanian elements in the Bulgarian anthroponymics. In the Ottoman-Turkish language the word düšmān () or düšmen () ‘enemy, adversary’ is considered to be a Persian loan-word. The initial Persian form došmän () is usually written without Ālif (ā). It is penetrated also in Pushto, where the Afghanian pronunciation dušman () stays most close to the Bulgarian one. The entry of the name Dušman () in the Ottoman defters almost exclusively by Ālif (ā) and Wāw (ū) prompt, that the registrator did not make a connection with the possible meaning of the anthroponymous (Turkish: düşman). This was due perhaps to the hard pronunciation of the word in Bulgarian, except if there was not any more different meaning in it. In this case the name Dušman could be made also from another initial form (like *duš + -man?) in analogy to Durman and Šišman. Carried with the medieval Turks to the Balkans this name was used during the 15th-16th centuries not only in North-western and Western Bulgaria (in the regions of Vratsa, Lovech and Pleven; in the vicinity of Godech; in the districts of Sofia and Pernik), but also in the eastern part of the Danubian plain (in the regions of Shumen and Razgrad), as well as far to south in the area of Thessaloniki. In the Ottoman records from that times the anthroponymous was combined with customary Bulgarian names (Ivan, Yanko, Prodan, Boyo), but also with not typical forms (Seto, Mirdjan, Hasno). Some of the examples are noted in villages like Kumanich, Kărlăkovo, Kunina, or in such settlements, from where are known also another questionable appellations.
Definite Pre-Ottoman is the name Aldomir (), noted twice during the reign of Sultan Mehmed IInd (1451-1481) in the village Batkovtsi, the region of Sofia, whereby one of the registered person came from Vidin[68]. J. Zaimov connects it with Aldemir, Aldimir, but along with the correct Turkic etymology (from al, el ‘hand’ and temir, demir ‘iron’, i. e. ‘iron hand’) he assumes also, that it was an altered form of Vladimir or Radomir. He explains similarly the appellation Altimir, too - as „probably altered from Ratimir, or like Aldemir“[69], whereas N. Kovachev, who noted 2/3 from all examples of the anthroponymous in Northern Bulgaria, is convinced of its Turkic (Cumanian) origin: from al- ‘to take’ and timir ‘iron’[70]. A variety (or rather an initial variant) of the pointed out form is the name Eltimir. So was called the Despot of the Krăn-district on the Tundzha-valley. He was a brother of Tsar Georg Ist Terter (1280-1292) and therewith belonging to the Terter-dynasty in Bulgaria (1280-1323) - a late ramification of one of the most eminent Cumanian clans Terter-oba (Terterobiči in the Russian sources), from which descended also the Khan Kotyan (Kuthen), who immigrated into Hungary[71]. The anthroponymous Aldomir is pretty known amongst the names of Valakhian and Moldavian boiars, as well as of Valakhian „knez’es“ in Hungary[72]. The appellation of the village Aldomirovci in the region of Sofia derives from it. The name of the village Aydemir near Silistra could be an alteration to Aldemir, except if one interprets it literally as ‘iron Moon’ (< Turk. ay ‘Moon’ + demir ‘iron’). Hier belongs also the name of the village Altimir () in the area of Byala Slatina (the region of Vratsa) with its 35 households in the middle of the 15th century[73], as well as the proper name Andomir in a register from the following century[74], which form, if not due to an incorrect reading because of a similar kind of writing of the letters Lām (l) and Nūn (n) in initial position, could be testify to the characteristic assimilation of both sounds in some dialects. From Aldomir was made the shortened form Aldo ()[75], noted still 1491 in the Ottoman documentation[76].
The name Asen (), which Cumanian origin was proved long ago, figure also in the Ottoman records. Some scholars juxtapose it with the Chinese transcription of the designation of the oldest Turkic ruling clan during the 6th-8th centuries, A-shih-na, whereas others see in it the form Äsen or Esen (< Turk. esen ‘healthy, cheerful, buoyant, clever, reasonable’)[77]. Before its appearance with the Tsar Ivan Ist Asen - Belgun (1186-1196) the name was noted as an appellation of the Polovtsian Khan Осень (died 1082)[78] - the father or father-in-law of Khan Aepa, whose daughter married Yuriy Vladimirovich[79]. A son of Osen (or Yasen) was probably the famuous Khan Bonyak[80] (Μανιάκης in the Byzantine sources), who helped 1091 the Emperor Alexios Comnin to manage the Pechenegian danger. It seems, that upon his father was named the town of Osenev (also: Sharukan, Cheshuev)[81] ‘belonging to Osen’, that was twice occupied by the Russian in 1111 and 1116. Another Cumanian khan Асинь was captured 1096 near Sharkel (Belaya vezha)[82]. The anthroponymous is pretty known in the Byzantine sources (Άσάν, Άσάνις)[83], it appears as a New-Grecian name, too. Members of the Assenian dynasty entered during the 13th-14th centuries in a Byzantine service[84]. The last descendants of these Assenides put the beginning of one of the oldest noble families in Romania - Asan, noted in the list with 75 names of D. Cantemir’s „Descriptio Moldaviae“ (1714-1716)[85]. The later use of the name seems to keep up the memory of the Bulgarian Assenides and do not be connect with a concrete ethnic origin. It is very curious however the record in the presumed second land-inventory of the region of Tărnovo (about 1445-1461), wherein among the group of the reserve Voynuks from a village in the area of Sevlievo was noted someone „Dobruy [better Dobri: - V.St.] with another name Asen“[86]. The reason for this strange specifying is not clear. Whether the questioned Dobri was a descent of Cumans and preserved his Turkic name also in the 15th century, or he belonged to a noble kin, that pretended to have ties with the Assenides. Whatever it was, in distinction from today, as the name is pretty known (N. Kovachev notes 9062 cases of its use during the years 1901-1970), it was not have been once so widespread. This could be due to its peculiar „sacrality“ - as a name of an old ruling clan it was scarcely be „accessible“ to everyone and its bearers received it mostly in connection with some of their ancestors. In the used source material we find it once again by „Kirana, widow of Asen“[87] amongst the inhabitants of Thessaloniki, where figure also further „Cumanian-Bulgarian“ names. Except of the usually form Asen (cf. Old Bulg. , ) the Ottoman registers contain also variants like Asyan (a soft pronunciation of the Old Bulg. ), Asyo (shortened and diminutive form of As-en, As-yan + -o/-yo) and Yasko (another diminutive form of Asen with an iotation > Yasen or Iasen, i. e. Yas-en + -ko). Therein are recordet also place-names like Osenoluk (Osânoluq ) - the village Osenovlak in the region of Sofia and Osyanovec (Osânofğe ) - appellations of the village Polski Senovets in the region of Tărnovo and of the village Osenets in the region of Razgrad. They could be derived from a labialised variant of the name (cf. > = Osen, Osyan) and therewith could be interpreted as Osen-ev + ci (> če), i. e. Asen > Asenev ‘belonging to Assen’ > Asenevci ‘the Assens’, respectively as Osen-ev + lak (< Bulg. ‘meadow, grassland’) or + Turk. suffix -luq (?), i. e. ‘Aseneva lăka’ (‘the meadow of Assen’) or ‘Asenevlik’ (?)
In the Ottoman records from the 15th and 16th centuries there are many other Bulgarian names with a Turkic (probably Cumanian) origin. So we find par example in a register from the time of Sultan Mehmed IInd (1451-1481) amongst the inhabitants of the village Trebnik in the region of Sofia along with Kuman and Kumanin also someone Balik (), whose name was wrongly deciphered as Balina [88]. This anthroponymous appears in Bulgaria by the middle of the 14th century, when the bolyar Balik, for whom is supposed an eventual Cumanian origin, separated his dominions between the Lower Danube and the Black-Sea coast from the Bulgarian state. The area with a centre in the town of Karvuna was called later Dobrudzha - perhaps after the name of the Balik’s brother and successor Dobrotica[89], who began to cut his own coins as a sign of his independence from Tărnovo. The Byzantine sources signify Balik through „ἄρχων Μπαλίκας“ (1346), which form can be interpret as Balika, too. The name is found also in the lands northern of the Danube (Balik, Balyk); still 1392 a boiar Balęk was testified in Moldavia[90]. It was been traditionally derived from the Turk. balďq, balik (Old Turk. balaq, balďq) ‘fish’, but it could be juxtaposed with the East Turk. balďq, balik ‘town’ (e. g. in Beš-balik, an old designation of Peking), too. One supposes usually, that the town of Balchik on the Black-Sea coast was called so after the name of Balik. This toponymous will be however arisen as a diminutive from balďq in the meaning of a ‘little town’, or from the Turk. balčďk ‘swamp, miry place, mud, dirt; rubbish, excrement’, which word through the form balďq ~ balq, fixed by M. Kashgharî (11th century), lead to a third possible explanation of the name Balik, giving it a function of a peculiar „protective appellation“. The Ottoman sources contain as derivatives from it Balika () and Baliko (); it is not to exclude, that variants of Balik were the names Baluka () and Baluki (), too, for which forms is not proposed any Slavic etymology.
The registers from the 16th century note the proper name Balin (), often considered as a Slavic in origin. Its earliest records are connected with names of Valakhians, for instance in a charter of the Serbia’s King Stefan Uroš IInd (about 1318)[91]. It figure also in Valakhian documents: David şi Balin şi Mateş a lu Coţani (1425)[92]. This fact by itself proves however nothing at all, because the Valakhians used both Slavic and Cumanian proper names (cf. Kuman, Šišman, Dušman) and the designation „Valakhian“ in the Middle Ages was not always connected with an ethnic origin. One of the Polovtsian cities was named Balin (1116) and this is a reasonable ground to suppose a Non-Slavic origin of the place-name. And because the towns of Sharukan (Cheshuev) and Sugrov (Sugroba), mentioned along with Balin, were called after the names of the corresponding Polovtsian khans, the appellation Balin could be obviously regarded as arisen from someone Cumanian patronymic. Its derivatives Balina and Balinko figure in the Ottoman records, too.
The name Baluš, Beluš () was interpreted by J. Zaimov as derivative from Balo, Belo etc. + -uš [93]. The Ottoman writing of the word during the 15th century allows however different kinds of reading, inclusively Boluš, or even Bluš, i. e. B(o)luš, just as the name of the Polovtsian khan, first mentioned in the Russian chronicles, who after the defeat of the Torks near Sula came in the summer of 1055 on the left bank of Dnepr to make a peace with the Prince Vsevolod Yaroslavich[94]. The etymology of this name is unclear. One can think about the labialization of a primary a-vocal, so characteristic for the Russian language, i. e. Boluš < *Bĺluš < *Baluš, which form with a secondary fall of the vocal was developed on the Russian soil into Bluš. The appellation Baluš reminds in its turn of the Iranian male name Balūč () ‘Baluc, Baluč, Baloč’ (also „belūğ“ - from the designation of the people Baluchis, Balukhis), as well as of the later Hungarian form Palócz - an equivalent of the Russian „Polovets, Polovtsian“ (i. e. ‘Cuman’). We do not know, if the questioned name could be connected also with the name of the Romanian town of Balş, which is situated in a zone, full of toponyms with a probably Cumanian origin (e. g. the villages Comăneşti, Belgun, Buzduc etc., the hill Comanul and so many water-names with specific designations on -[l]ui)[95]. A diminutive from Baluš, i. e. Baluško is found in the Ottoman defters, too.
The used source material contains the name Barak, so in a late register from 1576, where was noted someone „Nemi, son of Barak“ from the village Berendey (i. e. Berende in the region of Radomir)[96]. The Turkic word barak (baraq, barag) means as an adjective ‘hairy’, but it was also a designation of a ‘hairy breed hunting dog’ (M. Kashgharî). It is found as Afghanian male name Barak (), too, as well as amongst the Romanian noble names in documents from the 15th and 16th centuries, as Cumanian anthroponymous from Hungary: Demetrius Barag (1521) and as a name of someone Polovtsian Баракъ in the Russian chronicles (1183)[97]. This fact, as well as the circumstance, that the above example was recorded in the village Berendey (the region of Radomir, or rather Pernik), refers to he Pre-Ottoman Turkic name-tradition, since the Berendeis were one of the most powerful tribal group amongst the union of the so called ‘Black Hats’ in Kievan Rus’.
To the medieval Cumans, if not even to the early Bulgarians, is to related also the anthroponymous Barso or Barsyu (), recorded in 1491 in the village Lyubene (probably the village Lyuben in Chech, Eastern Macedonia): „Barsyu, son of Yano“[98]. With a labialized first vocal (a > ĺ) the name is presented in the form Borso (), too - in a register from the last quarter of the 15th century, wherein amongst the inhabitants of the village Kalabak (Kalanbak, Kalambaki), the region of Drama, successively figure Iorgi and Mikhail, sons of someone Borso[99]. Both variants refer to one widespread among the Turks appellation Bars (i. e. Bars + -o) < bars ‘panther, tiger’. It is known in the Romanian onomastics since the 14th century like a name of a Valakhian boiar Bars Roman (1389), of a Moldavian „comis“ Bars (the beginning of the 15th century) etc.[100], one finds it also amongst the names of the Kipchakian in their origin Mameluks[101], as well as in the name of the Polovtsian Khan Begbars (Begubars) from the tribal group of Urus-oba[102]. The last designation figure several times in the Russian chronicles (so under the years 1084, 1190, 1229) and belonged obviously to different persons. Bekbars was the name of one melik (king) of Derbend from the end of the 12th and the first half of the 13th century, probably identical with the 1190 mentioned Polovtsian. The name Bibars was used by the Valakhian „knez’es“ in Hungary; we see it amongst the Romanian noble names from the 15th-16th centuries, as well as in some settlement-names (Bibarcfalva, Bibarcovo), too. But may be the most famous bearer of this name was the Mameluk Sultan of Egypt Beybars, descended from the Cumanian dynasty of Ölberlü. All this prompt, that also in the Bulgarian variants Barso or Borso could have been hidden eventually traces from the influence of the Cumanian name-tradition.
In such an article like this is impossible to comprise all suspicious forms with probably Cumanian or Pechenegian origin. But the studied source material shows clearly, that still by the first Ottoman records of land possessions and population, made to the middle of the 15th century, i. e. about a generation after the conquest of Bulgaria, along with the typical Bulgarian (Slavic or Christian) names are found also designations with Turkic, Iranian and even Arabian origin (Aldomir, Balik, Čakăr, Čoban, Dogan, Dušman, Fetük, Gogul, Hamza, Kara, Kačur, Kuman, Musa, Šahin, Šišman, Turgul, Turšan etc.). And because the time of one generation is not enough for adapting of new alien anthroponyms, these appellations must be related to the name-tradition of a part of the local population and especially to the onomasticon of the medieval Turks, still integrated into the Bulgarian people, as well as probably to the Valakhians, beeing under their cultural influence. In the more cases these names are combined with customary designations, what speaks of the advanced stage of Bulgarization of their bearers. Sometimes however the continuity is more evident, especially when the proper name and the father’s name belong to the same „Non-Bulgarian“ category, or if they were recorded in a region, strongly saturated with similar forms. Such areas emerge mostly in the districts of Pleven, Lovech, Vidin and Vratsa[103], in the town of Pernik and the neighbouring villages[104], in the settlements near Sofia[105], as well as far to east in Panagyurishte and partly in Kalofer. We can suppose therefor, that still before the Ottomans arrived Turkic ethnic elements were settled down in these areas of medieval Bulgaria.
A ground to connect such names with the Turkic equestrian peoples gives us their semantic, reflecting the nomadic way of life. The great part of them represents designations of typical animals - hare (Koyan), ram (Koč), buffalo (Malak), wolf (Kurt), roe (Karağa), dog (Barak, Čomar), different species of hunting birds (Balaban, Baše, Čakăr, Dogan, Ğura, Kraguy, Šahin, Tugan) etc., as well as eventual derivatives of verbs with a specific meaning (like: to run, to escape, to chase, to pursue, to catch, to surround, to swoop down, to settle etc.). Another group of names can be juxtapose with objects from the everyday life. They arose probably along the old Turkic practice to name the child according to the first word, pronounced after the birthing, or to the first object, seen by the lying-in woman. Some appellations have a wishing meaning, others contain the idea of something dirty or repulsive, which gives them a protective function. There are also cases, in which the meaning of the designation is connected with the time, the place or other circumstances of the birth, or allude to the succession of the corresponding child. Of course, we must not exclude the possibility of additional enlargement of the palette with Turkic names under the influence of the new-arrived Turkish population (cf. Čakăr, Čalăk, Čukur, Damar, Durgan, Iriš, Kuruš, Kuzgun, Malkoč, Oglan, Parmak, Tarla, Topal, Yaman, Yanuk etc.). A special role at that seems to have had the so called Yuruks, who preserved for a long time the mobile pastoral way of life and so were in contact with more settlements of one area.
Some of the suspicious proper-names shows an Iranian origin (Bazo, Bahadăr, Čare, Čenger, Čira, Čočur, Čupan, Mirzan, Piyali, Ruzbayran, Saman, Sar, Šabil, Šahin, Turšan etc.). This is not strange, because both the Cumans and the Pechenegs (and in more great degree the early Bulgarians, too) were in one or in other way subjected to the influence of the Iranian culture. It is curiously to note however, that in many cases the Afghanian phonetic variant (respectively the Afghanian semantic) of some words stays closer to the Bulgarian forms as their Persian counterparts. This refers to Central Asia, from where the three people set out in different times to the West.
Still in the 15th century, but more often during the following one, amongst the Bulgarians are found names with a definitive Arabian origin (Ahrin, Falak, Ganem, Hasim, Kesas, Kumaš, Merak, Musa, Rafit, Rahman, Samine, Šabakin etc.). Some of them are penetrated through the Iranian mediation, of which is witness the peculiarity of the corresponding forms. Others can be resulted from eventual earlier contacts, but in the prevailing part the Arabian name-material (so as many Persian word-forms) will have been entered in the local onomastics thanks to the Ottoman Turks. These are indeed single examples and they went rapidly out of use, but their existence by itself put the question of the cultural syncretism on the Balkans during the first Ottoman centuries.
Today may be sound very strange, that a Christian have had once a name like Fetyuk, Ğevadin or Zamir, that he could called his child after the name of the Sultan Bayezid, or that he bore a typical Persian or Turkish designation, which, if not inherited from earlier Turkic precursors, could have been owed to the influence of the Ottoman ethnic conglomerate. The cultural interaction however was a fact and without considering it we could hardly understand many characteristic features of the Bulgarian mode of life and mentality, as well as the existence of all those Turkish loan-words, inclusively in their Bulgarized variants.
[1] In villages with a confessional heterogenous population the Christians and the Moslems were recorded as usual separate. In the large cities, such as Tărnovo, Vidin, Thessaloniki, Sofia etc., they inhabited different quarters and this fact was reflected precisely in the Ottoman defters.
[2] Par example Н. Ковачев. Честотно-тълковен речник на личните имена у българите. Sofia 1987, p. 116.
[3] Cf. С. Илчев. Речник на личните и фамилни имена у българите. Sofia, 1969, p. 283; Й. Заимов. Български именник. Sofia, 1988 (21994), p. 131.
[4] Cf. G. Moravcsik. Byzantinoturcica. Bd. II. Sprachreste der Türkvölker in den byzantinischen Quellen. Berlin, 1958 (see under: Κούμανοι, Κόμανοι, Κομάνια, Κόμανια, Κόμανος).
[5] For instance by Nestor, see Собрание Русских летописей. Vol. I. S. Petersburg, 1856, p. 99: „кумани рекше Половци“ [‘Cumans, i. e. Polovtsians’].
[6] Cf. K. H. Menges. The Oriental Elements in the Vocabulary of the Oldest Russian Epos, The Igor’ Tale Slovo o Púlku Igorevě. Published by the Linguistic Circle of New York. Supplement to Word, Vol. 7, December 1951, Monograph N° 1, pp. 13-14.
[7] H. Seraja-Szapszał. Uzupełnienia i wyjaśnienia. - Myśl Karaimska, 1931, t. 2, zesz. 3-4, p. 7 (quoted after Я. Р. Дашкевич. Codex Cumanicus - действительно ли cumanicus? - Вопросы языкознания, 1988, № 2, 62-74; see on p. 66).
[8] L. Rásonyi. Tuna Havzasında Kumanlar. - Belleten, 3, 1939, 401-422 (see on p. 416-417).
[9] Ibid, p. 407.
[10] Ibid, p. 420.
[11] Ibid, p. 416-417.
[12] L. Rásonyi. Valacho-Turcica. - In: Aus den Forschungsarbeiten der Mitglieder des Ungarischen Instituts und des Collegiem Hungaricum in Berlin dem Andenken Robert Graggers gewidmet. Berlin-Leipzig, 1927, 68-96 (see on p. 90); I. Schütz. Les contacts médiévaux albano-comans reflétés par l’onomastique de Kosovo. - AOH, 40, 2-3, 1986, 293-300 (see on p. 296). The document belongs to Stefan Prvovenčani - a Serbia’s Great zhupan in 1196-1217 and king in 1217-1228.
[13] Schütz. Les contacts, 296.
[14] See Moravcsik. Byzantino-Turcica, II: Index.
[15] Rásonyi. Valacho-Turcica, 89-90; Tuna, 420. See also: L. Rásonyi. Contribution ŕ l’histoire des premičres cristallisations d’Etat des Roumains. L’origine des Basaraba. Budapest, 1935, p. 9 [Extract from the Archivum Europae Centro-Orientalis - I (Etudes sur l’Europe Centre-Orientale dirigée par Ostmitteleuropäische Bibliothek, herausgegeben von E. Lukinich, N° 3), pp. 221-253].
[16] Rásonyi. Tuna, 416.
[17] О. Прiцак. Половцi. - Украďнський iсторик (New York - Munich), 1-2 (37-38), 1973, 112-118 (see on p. 118).
[18] I.Conea, I. Donat. Contribution ŕ l’étude de la toponymie pétchénčgue-coman de la plaine roumaine de Bas-Danube. - In: Contribution Onomastiques. Publies ŕ l’occasion du VIe Congrčs international des sciences onomastiques ŕ Munich du 24 au 28 Aoűt 1956. Bucarest, 1958, 139-169 (see on pp. 154, 156); P. Diaconu. Les Coumans au Bas-Danube aux XIe et XIIe sičcles. Bucarest, 1978, p. 26.
[19] Conea, Donat. Contribution, 154; Diaconu. Les Coumans, 27.
[20] Cf. Gy. Györffy. Adatok a románok XIII. Századi történetéhez és a román állam kezdeteihez. - Történelmi Szemle, 1964, N° 3-4, 542-543.
[21] Diaconu. Les Coumans, 26.
[22] Conea, Donat. Contribution, 158.
[23] Conea, Donat. Contribution, 155, 156; Diaconu. Les Coumans, 26.
[24] Diaconu. Les Coumans, 26.
[25] Rásony. Tuna, 420.
[26] Diaconu. Les Coumans, 26.
[27] Conea, Donat. Contribution, 154, 157.
[28] Conea, Donat. Contribution, 154, 156; Diaconu. Les Coumans, 26.
[29] Diaconu. Les Coumans, 26.
[30] Conea, Donat. Contribution, 157; Diaconu. Les Coumans, 26.
[31] Rásonyi. Vallacho-Turcica, 89-90.
[32] I. Schütz. Des „comans noirs“ dans la poésie populaire albanaise. - AOH, 39, 1985, 193-203 (see on p. 198).
[33] Schütz. Des „comans noirs“, 200-201. The town, situated not far from the town of Dushmani, became to be wellknown after the archaeological excavations, started there in 1898, which offered the first material proofs of the Albanian civilisation from the 10th-11th centuries. According to István Schütz, this village could have been a Cumanian colony and the nearly Albanian communities were related probably hostility to it, whereas the newcomers gave to the neighbouring town the name Dushmani, ‘enemy’.
[34] Schütz. Les contacts, 293-294. One supposes, that the two villages were founded by Cumans in the time of their invasions.
[35] See A. Urošević. O isčezlom selo Kumanovo na Kosovo. Priština, 1956 (along Schütz. Les contacts, 294).
[36] Cf. В. Кънчов. Македония: етнография и статистика. Sofia, 1900, pp. 155, 265. See also Ст. Младенов. Печенези и узи-кумани в българската история. - In: Българска историческа библиотека, year IV, vol. I, Sofia, 1931, pp. 115-136 (see on p. 130).
[37] FTHB - 2 (1966), p. 19.
[38] Ibid, p. 39.
[39] Ibid, p. 93.
[40] Ibid, p. 417.
[41] Ibid, p. 443.
[42] Младенов. Op. cit., 130.
[43] This is a male name and has nothing to do with the word кума ‘a second wife by the new legal marriage (of the Moslems)’; respectively a female form of the Bulgarian word кум ‘godfather’.
[44] FTBH - 3 (1972), pp. 71, 72.
[45] Cf. B. Kossányi. Az úzok és kománok tőrténetéhez a XI-XII században. - Századok, 57-58, 1923-1924, 519-537; also in Turkish translation: B. Kossanyi. XI.-XII-nci Asırlarda Uz’lar ve Koman’ları dair. - Belleten, VIII, 29, 1944, 119-136 (see on p. 133-136). Cf. also G. Györffy. A kun és a komán népnév eredetének kérdéséhez. - Antiquitas Hungarica, 2, 1948, 158-176. According to Laszlo Rásonyi the „Kuns“ consisted at least of five components: (1) of the people qűn, who originally lived in the eastern part of the Gobi-desert; (2) of the people sârî, carried away with the former in his compulsory migrations to the West till the end of the 9th century; (3) of the Kipchaks (qďpčaq), originally a part of the Kimäk-confederation, who joined with these two peoples about the year 1020; finally (4) and (5) of the heterogeneous ethnic groups, consisted of Pechenegs and Uzoi (Oghuz), integrated by the Cumans in the West in their own tribal organisation during the second half of the 11th century. Cf. L. Rásonyi. Les noms toponymique du Kiskunság. - Acta Linguistica Acad. Sci. Hung., 7, 1956, 73-146 (see on p. 74-75).
[46] Schütz. Des „comans noirs“, 198.
[47] Cf. J. Németh. Die Volksnamen „quman“ und „qun“. - KCsA, III (1941-1943), N° 1, 1941, 95-109. See more detailed by Menges. Op. cit., 8-11, 13-14.
[48] FTHB - 2, p. 309; cf. also FTHB - 3, p. 28.
[49] Заимов. Op. cit., 131, 132; Ковачев. Op. cit., 116.
[50] Cf. about it: А. И. Попов. Кыпчаки и Русь. - Ученые записки Ленинградского государственного университета. Серия исторических наук. Вып. 14, 1949, 94-119 (see on p. 119).
[51] Заимов. Op. cit., 83, 101.
[52] Rásonyi. Valacho-Turcica, 86; L. Rásonyi. Les anthroponymes comans de Hongrie. - AOH, 20, 1967, 135-149 (see on p. 140).
[53] So assumes Schütz. Les contacts, 296.
[54] Rásonyi. Vallacho-Turcica, 86.
[55] Ibid. Also Rásonyi. Contribution, 13; Tuna, 420.
[56] Schütz. Les contacts, 296. The author refers to Selami Pulaha. Nahija e Altun-ilisë dhe popullsia e sajë në fund të shekullit XV. Prishtinë. „Gjurmime albanologjike“ Seria e shkeucave historike, I - 1971, pp. 193-272 (p. 210, 219).
[57] Rásonyi. Valacho-Turcica, 86; Tuna, 420; Schütz. Les contacts,296-297.
[58] István Schütz supposes, that toponyms like Komarevo in Bulgaria, Comarnic in Rumania and Komarni nahiye in the land register of the Sanjak of Shkodra (1485) arose from the Cumanian name Koman, respectively Koman-an > Komanan > Komaran, whereat the change n > r (rhotacism) was realised probably under Valakhian (Arumanian?) influence. Cf. Schütz. Les contacts, 295-296.
[59] Moravcsik. Byzantino-Turcica, II: Index.
[60] Cf. the derivatives: šišuγ ‘swelling’; šiškin ‘swelled, swelling, bloated’; šiško ‘fatman; fat, thick’; šišal ‘thick sheep’; šišak, šišek, šišik ‘two years old lamb, begun to grow fat’, etc.
[61] See more details abot them by И. Божилов. Фамилията на Асеневци (1186-1460). Генеалогия и просопография. Sofia, 1985, pp. 119-136, 139-144, 149-178, 197-210, 224-233; И. Божилов. Българите във Византийската империя. Sofia, 1995, p. 361.
[62] Rásonyi. Valacho-Turcica, 92.
[63] Ibid. Cf. also Rásonyi. Contribution, 9, 15; Tuna, 420.
[64] Schütz. Les contacts, 295, 296.
[65] More than 40 items in the used source material.
[66] Schütz. Des „Comans noirs“, 200-202; Les contacts, 295, 297-298, 299-300.
[67] Попов. Кипчаки, 118.
[68] FTHB - 2, p. 100.
[69] Заимов. Op. cit., 9.
[70] Ковачев. Op. cit., 42.
[71] Before the appearance of the tribe Kay in the Northern coast area of the Black Sea the clan Terter-oba was amongst the ruling clans of the Kipchaks, having the highest rank by the so called ‘wild Polovtsians’. To it belonged presumably Tugorkan - the father-in-law of the Kievan prince Svyatopolk Izyaslavič, and from Tugorkan derived their descent in the 15th-16th centuries the princes Polovci-Rožinovski from Skvir - the only prince-dynasty, survived after the decline of the Kievan state. Cf. Прiцак. Половцi, 113-115; P. Golden. The Polovci Dikii. - Harvard Ukrainian Studies, 3-4, 1979-1980, 269-309.
[72] Rásony. Contribution, 8, 10; Tuna, 420.
[73] FTHB - 2, p. 245. The Ottoman kind of writing of the name allows the reading „Eltimir“, too. In a later register of Voynuks from the 16th century the appellation of the same village was recorded as „Aldimir“.
[74] FTHB - 3, p. 171. The person in question was recorded in the village Prevala (the region of Montana), i. e. in the area between Vratsa and Vidin, abounding with possible Cumanian names.
[75] So Заимов. Op. cit., 9, who takes this variant of the name to 16th century.
[76] FTHB - 2, p. 247.
[77] So L. Rásonyi. Kuman özel adları. - Türk Kültürü Araştırmaları, 3-6, 1966-1969, 71-144 (see on p. 82-83). The meaning ‘clever, reasonable’ of the word esen is connected semantically with the nickname Belgun of the tsar Asen, which derived probably from the Turk. bilgün ~ bilgin ‘knowing, wise’ (cf. by Ст. Младенов. Потеклото и съставът на среднобълг. Бhлгунь, прекор на царь Асhня I. - Списание на БАН, 45, 1933, 49-66).
[78] Cf. the Lavrentien chronicle under the year 6540 (= 1082): „Осень умре Половечьскый князь“ [‘Osen’ died, the Polovtsian prince’] in Полное Собрание Русских Летописей (PSRL), vol. I, p. 205.
[79] Cf. the Hypatian chronicle under 6615 (= 1107): „и поя Володимер за Юргя Аепину дщерь Осенову внуку“ [‘and took Volodimer for Yurgi (Georg) the Aepa’s daughter, the Osen’s granddaughter’] (PSRL, II, 282-283).
[80] Прiцак. Половцi, 115.
[81] The form Osenev is found in the Lavrentiev chronicle (see PSRL, I, 275, 290). After the death of Osen (or Asen) this residence was re-named into Sharukan’ according to the appellation of Sharukan, Sharagan (from *šaraqan ‘dragon’ or from saryγ [šary-] qān ‘Šaru-khan’, i. e. ‘Khan of the [people] Šārī’ or ‘Yellow [central] lord’). He led the clan Ol’berlyu (Olbery, Alp-eri), arrived about 1110 from Central Asia and displaced into the second plan the Assenidian dynasty Kay. The other name of the town, Cheshuev (Cheshyuev, Cheshlyuev from the Russ. чешуя ‘scale’) is connected also with Sharukan.
[82] See Поучение Владимира Мономаха under 6604 (= 1096): „идохом к Беле Вежи и ... избиша 900 Половець и два князя яща Багубарсова брата Асиня и Сакзя“ [‘they went to Sarkel and ... killed off 900 Polovtsians and two princes, Asin and Sak(i)z, who were brothers of Beg-u Bars’] (PSRL, II, 248-249).
[83] Moravcsik. Byzantino-Turcica, II, 73-75; Index.
[84] Cf. Ф. И. Успенский. Болгарскиа Асеневичи на византийской службе. - Известия Русского Археологического Института в Константинопле, 13, 1908, 1-16; see also: Божилов. Фамилията; Божилов. Българите.
[85] П. Мутафчиев. Происходот на Асеневци. - Македонски преглед, IV, 4, 1928, 1-42 (see on p. 12, note 4); M. Lăzărescu-Zobian. Cumania as the Name of Thirteenth Century Moldavia and Eastern Wallachia: Some Aspects of Kipchak-Rumanian Relations. - In: Journal of Turkish Studies, 8, 1984 (= Turks, Hungarians and Kipchaks. A Festschrift in Honor of Tibor Halasi-Kun), pp. 265-272 (see on p. 270).
[86] FTHB - 1 (1964), p. 42.
[87] FTHB - 3, p. 400.
[88] FTHB - 2, p. 55.
[89] An another explanation of the name (from Dhu Borğan, Dhu Bruğan ‘masters of Burdjan’) was proposed by M.-M. Alexandrescu-Dersca. L’Origine du nom de la Dobroudja. - In: Contribution Onomastique. Publies ŕ l’occasion du VIe Congrčs international des sciences onomastiques ŕ Munich du 24 au 28 Aoűt 1956. Bucarest, 1956, 97-114.
[90] Rásonyi. Valacho-Turcica, 74; Contribution, 11.
[91] Cf. K. Kadlec. Valaši a valašské právo v zemích slovanských a uherských..- In: Úvoden podávajícím přehled theorii o vzniku rumunského národa. Praha 1916, 451 (quoted after Lăzărescu-Zobian. Cumania, 269).
[92] Cf. Panaitescu. Documentele Ţării Româneşti, t. I, 1938, 145 (quoted after Lăzărescu-Zobian. Cumania, 269).
[93] Заимов. Op. cit., 14, 18.
[94] Cf. the Hypatian chronicle under 6563 (= 1055) „приходи Блуш с половци и створи Всеволод мир с ними и возвратишася въсвояси“ [‘came Bluš with Polovtsians and made Vsevolod peace with them and they returned where they had come from’] (PSRL, I, 162; II, 150).
[95] Conea, Donat. Contribution, 154.
[96] FTHB - 3, p 127.
[97] Rásonyi. Contribution, 11; Tuna, 42; Les anthroponymes, 137; Попов. Кипчаки, 118.
[98] FTHB - 2, p. 471.
[99] FTHB - 1, p. 194.
[100] Rásonyi. Contribution, 11; Tuna, 420; Lăzărescu-Zobian. Cumania, 270.
[101] J. Sauvaget. Noms et surnoms de Mamelouks. - JA, 238, 1, 1950, 31-58 (cf. entries nos. 29, 49, 50, 65, 144).
[102] Cf. O. Pritsak. Non-‘Wild’ Polovtsians. - In: To Honor Roman Jakobson. Essays on the Occasion of His Seventieth Birthday, 11 October 1966, Vols. 1-3. The Hague-Paris: Mouton, 1967, vol. II, pp. 1615-1623 (see on p. 1620).
[103] In these regions are to be expected the successors of Cumanian fragmentary groups.
[104] 30 per cent from all proper names in Pernik about the middle of the 15th century shows an eastern, Cumanian or Pechenegian origin. Especially saturated with such forms was once the village Studena.
[105] So for instance the villages Bistritsa, Trebich, Belitsa, Kostinbrod etc.
http://www.ihist.bas.bg/sekcii/CV/_private/Valery_Stojanow/VS_Anthroponymis.htm
I just found more old Turkic words in Bulgarian and standard slavic languages. Someone gave this wikipedia link in another thread and there was a comparison of expressions in slavic languages. Here it is;
http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/9497/clipboard013j.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shopi
It says "istem, iskam" as "I want" in Serbian, Macedonian and Bulgarian but erroneously but probably purposely indicated as "archaic word". This is in fact an old Turkic word;
I found this word in Russian and Slovenian too by using google translate;
Slovenian "íščem"
http://translate.google.com/#sl|en|%C3%AD%C5%A1%C4%8Dem
Russian "iskat"
http://translate.google.com/#ru|en|%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8C
Serb-Croat "istem"
http://translate.google.com/#hr|en|istem
This old Turkic word still exists in today`s Turkish without any change in semantics but maybe a slight letter change in post-republic Turkish orthography of tense/mood forms;
Turkish "istem, istek, istek-li, iste-mek, istet-mek"
http://translate.google.com/#tr|en|istem
http://translate.google.com/#tr|en|istek
http://translate.google.com/#tr|en|istekli
http://translate.google.com/#tr|en|istemek
http://translate.google.com/#tr|en|istetmek
The word "Jadem, Jem, Jedem, Jadam" as "I eat". This is also an old Turkic word of "Ye, yemek, yedim, yem" meaning "to eat, food, eating"
http://translate.google.com/#tr|en|yem
http://translate.google.com/#tr|en|yedim
The word "Kuche" as "dog" in slavic languages. This is in fact "Kuçu, Kuchu" in Turkic, meaning "dog or dog puppies".
All these forms of these words also exists in Turkish-Arabic dictionary written in 1070 AD;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmud_al-Kashgari
https://sites.google.com/site/kokturkuzbiz/dlt
morski
05-28-2012, 03:30 PM
Iskam is from Old Bulgarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Bulgarian) "искати, искати, искѫ/иштѫ".
старобълг. искати, искати, искѫ/иштѫ ζητεῖν „търся“ (Зогр., Мар., Сав.), „стремя се, желая“ (Зогр., Мар., Асем., Сав. кн., Супр., Хил.), слав. *jьščǫ, *jьskati (сърб. искати, иштем, словен. iskati, iščem, хърв. iskati, ištem, iskam, чеш. jískati, пол. iskać, iszczę, рус. искать, ищу, укр. iскати) сроден с лит. ieškoti „търся“, ст.в.нем. eiscon „разпитвам“, англ. ask „питам“, староинд. icchati „желая“.
Indo-european.
Iam is also from Old Bulgarian, so IE again.
старобълг. ıамь (*ěd-mь), ıасти (*ěd-tei) (Зогр., Мар., Асем., Супр.) < стар атематичен глагол *ēd-: лит. edu, esti „ям“, лат. edō, ēs, ēst „ям, ядеш, яде“, гот. itan „ям“, староинд. admi „ям“, хет. e-it-mi (=*etmi) „ям“.
Kuche is pre-Ottoman Turkic loanwrod, because, as with the above it is attested in Old Bulgarian.
Dacul
05-28-2012, 04:02 PM
Well dad from slavic is from dad,cognate with english.
Tata is cognate with romanian,which is primary word for father in bulgarian and serbo-croatian.First word in russian is papa,for father,which is cognate with latin/italian cause is of indo-european origins.
As for med,used for honey in slavic languages,that is cognate with germanic mead (mead - english and icelandic,met in german,mjřd in swedish/norwegian),which is drink made from fermenting water with honey:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mead
To see this more clearly,see that in russian the word for mead and honey is same,med.
So the arguments about the influence of turkic languages in bulgarian are not that good,are much more influences from celtic languages in slavic languages.
And normally,most cognates between slavic and other IE european language are with balto-slavic languages and with romanian language.
Are also plenty of cognates with germanic languages.
I gave you the google translate results and word list of Arabic - Turkish dictionary written in 1070 AD. What more you want?
If you deny that these are not Turkic loans, then explain to me how you Bulgarian slavs in danube influenced 200 million other Turkic speakers in the world and how come Azerbaijanis, Turkmens and all others uses words like istem, yem, kuçu?
Actually the explanation is simple but you just deny the obvious. You have these words because the reason is the early Bulgars was speaking Turkic, therefor these Turkic words has been passed into Old church slavonic.
Another proof is the cave monastery of 9th century in today`s Basarabi in Romania/Bulgaria border with Turkic runic and OCS writings on it. I posted them here in first page;
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44335&p=781264
morski
05-29-2012, 09:05 AM
I gave you the google translate results and word list of Arabic - Turkish dictionary written in 1070 AD. What more you want?
If you deny that these are not Turkic loans, then explain to me how you Bulgarian slavs in danube influenced 200 million other Turkic speakers in the world and how come Azerbaijanis, Turkmens and all others uses words like istem, yem, kuçu?
Actually the explanation is simple but you just deny the obvious. You have these words because the reason is the early Bulgars was speaking Turkic, therefor these Turkic words has been passed into Old church slavonic.
Another proof is the cave monastery of 9th century in today`s Basarabi in Romania/Bulgaria border with Turkic runic and OCS writings on it. I posted them here in first page;
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44335&p=781264
Pff, nigga, please! It's much more plausible that Turkic languages were influenced immensely by Indo-European languages in their formation than the other way around, hence the cognates.
Pff, nigga, please! It's much more plausible that Turkic languages were influenced immensely by Indo-European languages in their formation than the other way around, hence the cognates.
My nigga, these specific words doesn't exists in any other languages than Turkic and Slavic, hence your IE influence theory fails.
That was my point from the beginning already. I am listing the words which only exists in Turkic and old-Bulgarian but some of these also exists in Hungarian too. Already, i have no idea why you guys keep resisting and denying these obvious facts. For example, Hungarian linguists accepts that most of their agriculture and horse riding terms are from Turkic. Why you keep denying the obvious and inventing Pamirian, Iranian, Afghan Pashtun myths?
morski
05-29-2012, 10:48 AM
Iskam -> Old Bulgarian - искати, искати, искѫ/иштѫ ζητεῖν „търся“ (Зогр., Мар., Сав.); Slavic - *jьščǫ, *jьskati(Serbian - искати, иштем, Slovenian - iskati, iščem, Croatian - iskati, ištem, iskam, Czech - jískati, Polish - iskać, iszczę, Russian - искать, ищу, Ukrainian- iскати) cognate with Lithuanian- ieškoti „търся“, Old High German - eiscon „разпитвам“, English - ask „питам“, Old Hindi - icchati „желая“.
Iam - Old Bulgarian - ıамь (*ěd-mь), ıасти (*ěd-tei) (Зогр., Мар., Асем., Супр.), Lithuanian - edu, esti „ям“, Latin - edō, ēs, ēst „ям, ядеш, яде“, Gothic - itan „ям“, Old Hindi - admi „ям“, Hittite - e-it-mi (=*etmi) „ям“.
morski
05-29-2012, 01:51 PM
My nigga, these specific words doesn't exists in any other languages than Turkic and Slavic, hence your IE influence theory fails.
That was my point from the beginning already. I am listing the words which only exists in Turkic and old-Bulgarian but some of these also exists in Hungarian too. Already, i have no idea why you guys keep resisting and denying these obvious facts. For example, Hungarian linguists accepts that most of their agriculture and horse riding terms are from Turkic. Why you keep denying the obvious and inventing Pamirian, Iranian, Afghan Pashtun myths?
I personally am not denying anything.
I'm perfectly content with the original Bulgars being a mixed bag of Turkic warrior elite, Slavicized Sarmatians and Alans and Antes Slavs. I also have absolutely no problem whatsoever with the Kumans who assimilated into the medieval Bulgarian population. If we assume it was so of course.
Simple truth is that we know so little about the original Bulgars that it is stupid to make concrete assumptions about them being whatever...
However, it is beyond any doubt that modern Bulgarians are Analytical Balkan Slavs and the originators of the Slavo-Byzantine culturual matrix that shaped half of Europe and at one time ruled over one of the three great states of early medieval Europe - The First Bulgarian Empire, The Eastern Roman Empire and the Frankish Empire.
I personally am not denying anything.
I'm perfectly content with the original Bulgars being a mixed bag of Turkic warrior elite, Slavicized Sarmatians and Alans and Antes Slavs. I also have absolutely no problem whatsoever with the Kumans who assimilated into the medieval Bulgarian population. If we assume it was so of course.
Simple truth is that we know so little about the original Bulgars that it is stupid to make concrete assumptions about them being whatever...
Morski, we know that Alans was the only Iranian speaking tribe in Eurasia and they have been destroyed and totally disappeared from history when Huns migrated to current Ukraine from the east in late 4th century. So, by the 5th century, Iranian tribes was non-existent in there. This is long before Bulgars migrated to Danube.
When we look at the Danube, we see that first Bulgars used Turkic titles, wrote in Turkic with our runic letters, they had Turkic names too. Khazar Khan said that that Bulgars was akin to them in 10th century. Arab travelers also said that Bulgars are Turks in 10th century. Cyril&Methodius said that Bulgars are part of Huns, akin to Turkic Khazars and they are in process of baptizing them in 9th century. Then western historians also said the same thing in late medieval era.
So, Turkic theory for the origin of Bulgars was already present and quite known by whole world for 1000+ years. The reason is, it wasn't just a theory but a fact.
If we assume about Cumans? Mate, the existence of Kumans in Balkans is a fact too and they just disappeared by assimilating among today`s Balkan people. The last time the presence of Turkic speaking Cumans has been attested in 17th century Hungary. Today, the Cumans in Hungary proudly expresses their Turkic origin despite that they cant speak their language anymore.
However, it is beyond any doubt that modern Bulgarians are Analytical Balkan Slavs and the originators of the Slavo-Byzantine culturual matrix that shaped half of Europe and at one time ruled over one of the three great states of early medieval Europe - The First Bulgarian Empire, The Eastern Roman Empire and the Frankish Empire.
I was always talking about the early Bulgars since day.1
Ofc today`s Bulgarians have no relation with Turks. I mean, you can be Iranians, Afghans, Pashtuns, Pamirians but the last thing Bulgarians can possibly be; Turks.
Proto-Shaman
01-30-2013, 09:03 AM
Iskam is from Old Bulgarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Bulgarian) "искати, искати, искѫ/иштѫ".
Indo-european.
Iam is also from Old Bulgarian, so IE again.
I gave you the google translate results and word list of Arabic - Turkish dictionary written in 1070 AD. What more you want?
If you deny that these are not Turkic loans, then explain to me how you Bulgarian slavs in danube influenced 200 million other Turkic speakers in the world and how come Azerbaijanis, Turkmens and all others uses words like istem, yem, kuçu?
Actually the explanation is simple but you just deny the obvious. You have these words because the reason is the early Bulgars was speaking Turkic, therefor these Turkic words has been passed into Old church slavonic.
Another proof is the cave monastery of 9th century in today`s Basarabi in Romania/Bulgaria border with Turkic runic and OCS writings on it. I posted them here in first page;
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44335&p=781264Pff, nigga, please! It's much more plausible that Turkic languages were influenced immensely by Indo-European languages in their formation than the other way around, hence the cognates.
Iskam -> Old Bulgarian - искати, искати, искѫ/иштѫ ζητεῖν „търся“ (Зогр., Мар., Сав.); Slavic - *jьščǫ, *jьskati(Serbian - искати, иштем, Slovenian - iskati, iščem, Croatian - iskati, ištem, iskam, Czech - jískati, Polish - iskać, iszczę, Russian - искать, ищу, Ukrainian- iскати) cognate with Lithuanian- ieškoti „търся“, Old High German - eiscon „разпитвам“, English - ask „питам“, Old Hindi - icchati „желая“.
Iam - Old Bulgarian - ıамь (*ěd-mь), ıасти (*ěd-tei) (Зогр., Мар., Асем., Супр.), Lithuanian - edu, esti „ям“, Latin - edō, ēs, ēst „ям, ядеш, яде“, Gothic - itan „ям“, Old Hindi - admi „ям“, Hittite - e-it-mi (=*etmi) „ям“.
:picard1:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/yemek
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/istemek
SabirHunOgur
02-15-2013, 06:23 PM
ungari yes hungarians (Ogur and hungar is same, just the propagandists created other past)
tilmac is tolmács, talmács pecheneg tribe.
Proto-Shaman
02-15-2013, 06:37 PM
ungari yes hungarians (Ogur and hungar is same, just the propagandists created other past)
tilmac is tolmács, talmács pecheneg tribe.
tilmacs from Turkic til (language, tounge) and -macs suffix.
Obviously some people have problems with the truth.
Shaliq
02-22-2013, 04:23 PM
In Macedonian schools is taught that the ancient Bulgars were a Turko-Mongol tribe but looking at today's Bulgarians I think this is just stupid propaganda cause if it was true, they would have a lot more visible Mongoloid influence and wouldn't look like their neigbouring nations, especially like Macedonians
Yes, I agree - it's nothing but propaganda. I wonder why so many people in Macedonia refuse to accept the truth -- Macedonians and Bulgarians are all one. One Love. They speak the same language (and politics in Macedonia need to stop inventng new strange words just so they can claim they have a different language). They all have the same biotype as Bulgarians.
adsız
03-30-2013, 09:49 PM
Onur,
Thank you for this very informative thread.
Szegedist
03-30-2013, 10:01 PM
It would have been interesting if their kept their language, sadly not.
There were a lot of ties between the Bulgars and Hungarians in Asia, and later in Europe, some good, some bad.
That kind of disproves the "There were only a few thousand max Magyars who impoased their language on Slavs". If that was the case, then like the Bulgars we would have disappeared, but we did not.
Dacul
03-30-2013, 10:20 PM
I tell you that bulgarian are thracians and original slavs were a group of people born from thracians,after iranic (dacian/sarmatian) and gothic conquest and some changes in the language.
Look how you say in bulgarian I have problems with my eyes:
Imam problemi s ochite mi .
And in romanian:
Eu am probleme cu ochii mei.
Write romanian like this:
Euam probleme cu ochii mei.
Notice how close the grammar is and how closed the structure is.
The possessive pronoun is put after the substantive which is quite unique in indo-european languages from Europe.
Also the definite article is put at the end of substantive which is again quite unique in indo-european languages,being present only in South Slavic languages ,romanian and scandinavian languages.
squarecircle
03-30-2013, 10:53 PM
Resemblances between Bulgarian language and Romanian are due to the fact that Bulgars both ruled and Christianized Romania.
Bulgars are frequent in South Romania, we have a lot of Stancu or Petcu, Bulgarian surnames.
Dacul
03-30-2013, 11:25 PM
Resemblances between Bulgarian language and Romanian are due to the fact that Bulgars both ruled and Christianized Romania.
Bulgars are frequent in South Romania, we have a lot of Stancu or Petcu, Bulgarian surnames.
Oh lol,how can you explain the name places as Topoloveni (topolov = poplar in bulgarian),Cernavoda (from Tsrna Voda - black water) and so on?
Also make a little a list the fruits name in romanian and bulgarian,that grow in both countries,just for your curiosity.
Let me see:
Apple - yabŭlka bulg - mar romanian
peach - praskova bulg - para romanian
cherry - cheresha bulg - cireasa romanian (obvious cognate)
sour cherry english - vishna bulgarian - visina romanian (obvious cognate)
apricot english - kaĭsiya bulgarian - caisa romanian (c in romanian is pronounced as k in bulgarian,another obvious cognate)
Just gave a few examples here.
There lots of common terms in agriculture,between romanian and bulgarian.
Szegedist
03-30-2013, 11:41 PM
Oh lol,how can you explain the name places as Topoloveni (topolov = poplar in bulgarian),Cernavoda (from Tsrna Voda - black water) and so on?
Also make a little a list the fruits name in romanian and bulgarian,that grow in both countries,just for your curiosity.
Let me see:
Apple - yabŭlka bulg - mar romanian
peach - praskova bulg - para romanian
cherry - cheresha bulg - cireasa romanian (obvious cognate)
sour cherry english - vishna bulgarian - visina romanian (obvious cognate)
apricot english - kaĭsiya bulgarian - caisa romanian (c in romanian is pronounced as k in bulgarian,another obvious cognate)
Just gave a few examples here.
There lots of common terms in agriculture,between romanian and bulgarian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_language_area
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