Luxembourgers - who are they?

[Albion]

Who are the native Luxembourgers? Are they a distinct ethnicity or just some Germans, French or Belgians with a separate state?

They have a "language" which seems to be a dialect of German but most of the population speak French - is it due to Frenchification or simply because they're on the border between Germanic and Romance areas of Europe?

Are the Luxembourgers a distinct identity or are the same people as in the neighbouring countries?

[The Lawspeaker]

The Luxembourgers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxembourgers) (their own ethnic group) themselves say it:

Mir wëlle bleiwe wat mir sinn (We want to remain who we are). They have their own culture, their own language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxembourgish_language) and they are neither French, nor German, nor Netherlandic.

[Albion]

The Luxembourgers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxembourgers) (their own ethnic group) themselves say it:

Mir wëlle bleiwe wat mir sinn (We want to remain who we are). They have their own culture, their own language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxembourgish_language) and they are neither French, nor German, nor Netherlandic.

It strikes me as strange then how they've developed an identity and the Walloons apparently haven't. And what of Belgian Luxembourg and Namur province? Would they ever join Luxembourg and do they see themselves as Luxembourgers?

[The Lawspeaker]

It strikes me as strange then how they've developed an identity and the Walloons apparently haven't. And what of Belgian Luxembourg and Namur province? Would they ever join Luxembourg and do they see themselves as Luxembourgers?
Namur was never part of Luxembourg but it's own county which in turn was partially part of the Prince Bisphoric of Liege which in turn was part of the Seventeen Netherlands etc.

Luxembourg was, for a part, part of Luxembourg but it seems that the Luxembourgish language has been supplanted over time in some areas. Something that can also be seen in the areas that are now in France or Germany.

[Tchek]

It strikes me as strange then how they've developed an identity and the Walloons apparently haven't.

Can you elaborate on why you think the Walloons have no identity?

[Albion]

Can you elaborate on why you think the Walloons have no identity?

Well it was really addressed to a discussion I had with Civis earlier concerning a Flemish website which said as such. It personally struck me as odd but I didn't see any reason for the writer to lie.

So are you telling me there is a definite Walloon identity or is "Walloon" just a catch-all term for describing a group of disparate peoples?

[Tchek]

Well it was really addressed to a discussion I had with Civis earlier concerning a Flemish website which said as such. It personally struck me as odd but I didn't see any reason for the writer to lie.

So are you telling me there is a definite Walloon identity or is "Walloon" just a catch-all term for describing a group of disparate peoples?

Well if it was a Flemish website, then there are reasons for the writer to "lie" or at least have a bias... it's typical among flemish nationalists to picture the Walloons as the standard-bearers of a "French culture" that destroys local cultures, as opposed to a folk with an identity... the Walloons are not more disparate than the Flemish (or then the French and the Germans have no identity either since they are too a catch-all term for describing a varied bunch of people).

[Albion]

Well if it was a Flemish website, then there are reasons for the writer to "lie" or at least have a bias... it's typical among flemish nationalists to picture the Walloons as the standard-bearers of a "French culture" that destroys local cultures, as opposed to a folk with an identity... the Walloons are not more disparate than the Flemish (or then the French and the Germans have no identity either since they are too a catch-all term for describing a varied bunch of people).

The writer suggested that people in Belgian Luxembourg and Namur province would want to join "Luxembourg proper" leaving the rest of Wallonia to drift into France's orbit.

Are you a Walloon? What's your personal opinion - would Wallonia join France or become a country if Flanders left Belgium?

[Tchek]

The writer suggested that people in Belgian Luxembourg and Namur province would want to join "Luxembourg proper" leaving the rest of Wallonia to drift into France's orbit.

Are you a Walloon? What's your personal opinion - would Wallonia join France or become a country if Flanders left Belgium?

I'm from Wallonia, partly from the Luxembourg province; I think I know what article you're refering to. If I'm not mistaken the article was very condescending (oh well) and wanted to reduce Wallonia into its most decayed places, while giving the credits of its more beautiful/succesful places to neighbouring countries (as if those places were "not really wallonia"). A way to stygmatize and discredit the idea of "Wallonia".


Maybe Wallonia would join France, but there is no way that the Luxembourg province would join the grand Duchy (and least of all Namur)... the only places in Wallonia I could picture going to Lux is the St-Vith area and the Arlon area, both being "Luxemburgish" (Eupen is more "German").

[Albion]

I'm from Wallonia, partly from the Luxembourg province; I think I know what article you're refering to. If I'm not mistaken the article was very condescending (oh well) and wanted to reduce Wallonia into its most decayed places, while giving the credits of its more beautiful/succesful places to neighbouring countries (as if those places were "not really wallonia"). A way to stygmatize and discredit the idea of "Wallonia".

I see. This is the article. (http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2433)
When reading the article I was rather sad at the idea of breaking up Wallonia but I just took the word of the author.


Maybe Wallonia would join France, but there is no way that the Luxembourg province would join the grand Duchy (and least of all Namur)... the only places in Wallonia I could picture going to Lux is the St-Vith area and the Arlon area, both being "Luxemburgish" (Eupen is more "German").

I suppose it'd perhaps become a French department, that's better than it being divided between three countries anyway.
Thanks for explaining it to me, it's good to get the opinions of an actual Walloon instead of biased Flemish or foreign opinions.

I'm not sure about the German towns though, France controls Alsace so I don't think it'd have any reservations about including them.

Whatever happens, I think Wallonia should stay as one entity. From what I've seen of it; it looks like a nice region.

[The Lawspeaker]

I suppose it'd perhaps become a French department, that's better than it being divided between three countries anyway.
Thanks for explaining it to me, it's good to get the opinions of an actual Walloon instead of biased Flemish or foreign opinions.
Joining France would be a good idea to ensure the destruction of Walloon culture and their ethnic identity since France, with it's traditions of Jacobinism and centralisation has already wrecked and Parisinafied just about every French region and they would definitely dump all the immigrants there (and their offspring then can't be dislodged anymore because of the French nationality laws).


I'm not sure about the German towns though, France controls Alsace so I don't think it'd have any reservations about including them.
France includes Martinique and Reunion and as such France never has any problems in controlling non-French places. Look at South Flanders, for example.


Whatever happens, I think Wallonia should stay as one entity. From what I've seen of it; it looks like a nice region.
Definitely.

[Ouistreham]

Joining France would be a good idea to ensure the destruction of Walloon culture and their ethnic identity

Joining France would we the only way to ensure preservation of Walloon culture and identity.

Dutch language dictatorship has no equivalent in the world.

In Belgian Flanders, there are towns with overwhelming French speaking minorities, but their elected mayors are not recognized as such if they happen to speak the language of their voters. Any decision met in any city council is deemed illegal if some French words have been used under the debate. Culture jacobinism is a Dutch/Flemish specialty.

If Dutch/Flemish culture was something important no one would mind. But what has this inferior culture given to Europe, expect for Anne Franks Dagboek???

BTW how come a thread about Luxembourg is inserted into the NL department?

[Albion]

BTW how come a thread about Luxembourg is inserted into the NL department?

Because there's no Belgian or Luxembourg sections. I suppose i could equally have put it in German or French sections though.

Maybe a Belgium and Luxembourg section should be made, subdivided into Luxembourg, Wallonia and Flanders. Currently the first two have to use the French section I suppose.


If Dutch/Flemish culture was something important no one would mind. But what has this inferior culture given to Europe, expect for Anne Franks Dagsboek???

This is what I love about the French, they think their own culture is far superior to all else. This is great for nationalism and preservationism, we could do with more of that thinking here.


Joining France would we the only way to ensure preservation of Walloon culture and identity.

Dutch language dictatorship has no equivalent in the world.

In Belgian Flanders, there are towns with overwhelming French speaking minorities, but their elected mayors are not recognized as such if they happen to speak the language of their voters. Any decision met in any city council is deemed illegal if some French words have been used under the debate. Culture jacobinism is a Dutch/Flemish specialty.

Civis has already said the same thing about them joining France. These arguments seem to be the same from both sides, we really need the opinions of actual Belgians and Luxembourgers rather than French and Dutch.

[The Lawspeaker]

Joining France would we the only way to ensure preservation of Walloon culture and identity.
Tell that to Flanders.


Dutch language dictatorship has no equivalent in the world.
That's why Frisian is our second language and why Limburgic is even used in the halls of the Limburgian parliament. Does the same go for Flemish and Breton in France ? No it doesn't.. and you know that too.


In Belgian Flanders, there are towns with overwhelming French speaking minorities, but their elected mayors are not recognized as such if they happen to speak the language of their voters. Any decision met in any city council is deemed illegal if some French words have been used under the debate. Culture jacobinism is a Dutch/Flemish specialty.
I think that the Flemish attitude there is wrong and we could learn from the Swiss.



BTW how come a thread about Luxembourg is inserted into the NL department?
Because there is no real Belgian/Luxembourg section. Something that I have been asking the team to create.

Here is the idea that I had:

Either a Netherlands & Belgium section modelled on the UK-section with it's own areas for the Netherlands and Belgium (subdivided into: Frisians, general Dutch issues) and Flanders, Wallonia. Or a general Low Countries or Benelux one modelled on the same - now also with Luxembourg added but no plans have been looked into so it seems but I will be pushing for it as it does do history a lot more justice.

[Tchek]

If Dutch/Flemish culture was something important no one would mind. But what has this inferior culture given to Europe, expect for Anne Franks Dagboek???


Actually, Dutch/Flemish culture is not an inferior culture at all... the conquest of America, the painters, the sailors, protestantism (in the case of NL), the architecture...
Now, that doesn't mean it should be shoven down everyone's throat.

Unfortunately I must say, the French education is totally silent toward the NL, for some reason... The French know about Italy, a little about England... but about Netherlands? I noticed that even among french historians, the Dutch revolt is almost unknown. For many French, the Netherlands is as known as Estonia or Slovakia, that's a bit sad.
Maybe the idea of Netherlands is fundamentally anti-French (the backfiring of Napoleon conquest?), I don't know.

[The Lawspeaker]

Actually, Dutch/Flemish culture is not an inferior culture at all... the conquest of America, the painters, the sailors, protestantism, the architecture...
Now, that doesn't mean it should be shoven down everyone's throat.
Like French culture. They have achieved a lot but their attitude ruins it all.


Unfortunately I must say, the French education is totally silent toward the NL, for some reason... The French know about Italy, a little about England... but about Netherlands? I noticed that even among french historians, the Dutch revolt is almost unknown. For many French, the Netherlands is as known as Estonia or Slovakia, that's a bit sad.
Maybe the idea of Netherlands is fundamentally anti-French (The backfiring of Napoleon conquest?), I don't know.
While the Dutch know France and they know it quite well. French is a compulsory subject too even though most (including myself) flunked it. It is maybe a sign of France's world view and maybe that explains a bit why the Netherlands (after focussing on France during the 16th to early 19th century) focussed on Britain and Germany and later on the United States instead.

Besides. Anne Frank ? Was born in Frankfurt, Germany. And didn't even have a Dutch passport.


Nom de naissance Annelies Marie Frank (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Frank)
Naissance 12 (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_juin) juin (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juin) 1929 (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929)
Francfort-sur-le-Main (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francfort-sur-le-Main) , http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/Flag_of_Germany_%283-2_aspect_ratio%29.svg/20px-Flag_of_Germany_%283-2_aspect_ratio%29.svg.png (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Flag_of_Germany_%283-2_aspect_ratio%29.svg) République de Weimar (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9publique_de_Weimar)
Décès Mars (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_1945) 1945 (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/1945) (à 15 ans)
Bergen-Belsen (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergen-Belsen), http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/Flag_of_the_NSDAP_%281920%E2%80%931945%29.svg/20px-Flag_of_the_NSDAP_%281920%E2%80%931945%29.svg.png (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Flag_of_the_NSDAP_%281920%E2%80%931945%29. svg) Reich allemand (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troisi%C3%A8me_Reich)
Nationalité http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/20px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Flag_of_Germany.svg) Allemande (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allemagne)
Pays de résidence http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg/20px-Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg.png (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg) Pays-Bas (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pays-Bas)

[The Lawspeaker]

I think the main reason why so many flunk their French is because it is (at present) a useless subject. So I think that learning French should be made useful: dump French French and instead buy Belgian books and teach the children to speak Belgian French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_French) and since Belgium is just around the corner for us this is where the schools can plan their trips: day trips to Brussels and Namur (if they are close enough to the border) and school holidays in the Ardennes (it's just around the corner and relatively affordable). And student exchanges ? Mainly with Flemish and Walloon students. In that way it is no longer a useless subject but a tool for inter-Benelux cooperation.

[Albion]

I think the main reason why so many flunk their French is because it is (at present) a useless subject. So I think that learning French should be made useful: dump French French and instead buy Belgian books and teach the children to speak Belgian French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_French) and since Belgium is just around the corner for us this is where the schools can plan their trips: day trips to Brussels and Namur (if they are close enough to the border) and school holidays in the Ardennes (it's just around the corner and relatively affordable). And student exchanges ? Mainly with Flemish and Walloon students. In that way it is no longer a useless subject but a tool for inter-Benelux cooperation.

French is still useful, the Netherlands, Belgium and Southern England are all within easy distance of it.
Belgian French of the Walloon dialect would probably be a good idea if anyone in Belgium actually spoke it. I think they mainly speak standardised (Parisian) French though.

[The Lawspeaker]

French is still useful, the Netherlands, Belgium and Southern England are all within easy distance of it.
Belgian French of the Walloon dialect would probably be a good idea if anyone in Belgium actually spoke it. I think they mainly speak standardised (Parisian) French though.
For what I have read they speak a slightly different kind of French (it's not the same as the Walloon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walloon_language) language though !) with different words that also have a Germanic heritage but I think that Tchek can tell you more about Belgian French.

Some differences (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_French).



Breakfast seems to be petit déjeuner for the French but the Belgians, Canadians and Swiss call it déjeuner.



S'il vous plait is used to mean "here" (when handing someone something) as well as "please", whereas in France the meaning is limited to "please" - and "voilà" is used for "here". This is comparable to the use of alstublieft in Dutch.



Ça me goûte, standard French "ça me plait", "I like it" (only for food), is a calque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calque) of Dutch Dat smaakt.



Qu'est-ce que c'est que ça pour un animal ?", standard French "Quelle sorte d'animal est-ce là ?", English "What kind of animal is this?" (literally "What is it that that for an animal?"), Dutch "Wat is dat voor een dier?"



Usage of Une fois ("once") in mid-sentence, especially in Brussels, is a direct translation from the Dutch "eens". French people who want to imitate the Belgian accent often use a lot of "Une fois" at the end of the sentences, which is often wrong. Example: "Viens une fois ici" - literally : "Come once here". "Une fois" cannot really be translated in other languages; its function is to soften the meaning of the sentence. The English equivalent would be "Could you come here?" or "Why don't you come here?".



The French major (maire) is a bourgmestre or burgemeester (the latter in Flanders) in Belgium and a burgemeester in the Netherlands.

And with the Netherlands being focussed on Germany (economically) and Flanders, Britain and the U.S (culturally) and Brussels (politically) France is somewhat.... irrelevant and as a consequence so is French. This should be improved by improving ties with Wallonia.

[Albion]

It's a shame Anglo-Norman didn't survive better. It looks like quite interesting. Oh well, I suppose it turned Old English into the modern language.
Unlike some English Nationalists, I don't see French impact on English as an unfortunate mistake. I quite like it to be honest, it gives it an interesting Romanic / Germanic blend.



English < Norman = French

cabbage < caboche = chou

candle < caundèle = chandelle

castle < caste(l) = château

cauldron < caudron = chaudron

causeway < cauchie = chaussée

catch < cachi = chasser

cater < acater = acheter

wicket < viquet = guichet

plank < planque = planche

pocket < pouquette = poche

fork < fouorque = fourche

garden < gardin = jardin

cattle < *cate(l) = cheptel

[Stanley]

Came across this thread, suppose I'll give it a bump.

My great-grandmother's parents were from Luxemburg and came to the Midwest in 1890-something. They considered themselves Germans. Now, I'm not sure whether or not that sentiment was shared by all Luxemburgers, so I want to ask anyone more knowledgeable about Luxemburgian matters: Would that have been normal then, for Luxemburgers to identify as Germans? Or is it more likely that my forebears were ethnic Germans who happened to live in, say, eastern Luxemburg?

(By the way, I'm spelling it without the 'o' on purpose...)

[Burkean]

Of course they are a separate nation. When I was in Belgium and Luxembourg last summer, I felt their difference even when drove into the Belgian Luxembourg: it has different landscape, more hilly and wooded so it looked like a piece of the Middle Ages) When I went to the Luxembourg itself, this feeling was deepened. And when I was visiting their sights I've got the idea that they are very proud of their specificity and their national symbols. Also, as it was mentioned above, they have their own language that is German but has its origin in other branch of dialects than literary German language does.
Also, I think all historical territories of Luxembourg sholud be returned back to it. They are pleasant and decent nation :p

[Burkean]

But I really don't understand the idea that they are dutch. Personally I find absolutely nothing dutch in them. They even don't touch dutch-speaking area.

[Albion]

Of course they are a separate nation. When I was in Belgium and Luxembourg last summer, I felt their difference even when drove into the Belgian Luxembourg: it has different landscape, more hilly and wooded so it looked like a piece of the Middle Ages) When I went to the Luxembourg itself, this feeling was deepened. And when I was visiting their sights I've got the idea that they are very proud of their specificity and their national symbols. Also, as it was mentioned above, they have their own language that is German but has its origin in other branch of dialects than literary German language does.
Also, I think all historical territories of Luxembourg sholud be returned back to it. They are pleasant and decent nation :p


Luxembourg is about as cuddly as countries come: prosperous, picturesque and delightfully tiny. At 999 square miles, it is the smallest but one of the European Union states [1]. You could drive its length (55 miles) or its width (35 miles) in less time than it takes to watch a feature-length movie — provided you don’t stop at one of the many touristy villages or vineyards along the way. The capital, also called Luxembourg [2], is a cozy city of barely 100,000 souls; its major problem is not drugs or urban decay, but the apparently unfixable fact that it’s rather boring [3].

Luxembourg is the only country in the world ruled by a grand duke [4], which sounds more like the setup to a fairy tale than a real-world constitutional arrangement. The grand duchy is a founding member of the European Union and NATO [5], and hosts the European Court of Justice, Eurostat (the European Statistical Office), the Secretariat of the European Parliament and other supranational institutions. Luxembourg expects to be listened to and taken seriously by its international peers. And it is: of its last four prime ministers, one went on to become president of the United Nations General Assembly, another of the European Commission, and a third of the Eurogroup [6].

All that from a country less populous than Hanover, Germany’s 13th largest city. It is so small that even tiny Belgium is able to smirk about the grand duchy’s size, replicating the scorn heaped upon itself by its own larger neighbors. Why is Luxembourg so determined to punch above its weight? Could it be that it has a grander idea of itself than its neighbors have? An elevated sense of self is a useful survival tool, for countries as well as people. But Luxembourgers could argue that they don’t have delusions of grandeur, but rather memories of grandeur. Once upon a time, you see, there was a Greater Luxembourg.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/04/17/opinion/borderlines-luxembourg/borderlines-luxembourg-blog427.jpg

The state’s roots go back to 963 A.D., when Siegfried, count of the Ardennes, acquired Lucilinburhuc, an old Roman fort with a Frankish name [7]. Over the next few centuries, the House of Luxembourg would choose its wars and wives wisely, and the County of Luxembourg would grow to encompass an area four times the size of the present grand duchy.

Indeed, Luxembourg’s international ambitions, mainly within the vast and chaotic German Empire, are almost as old as the house itself. It produced three Holy Roman emperors, several kings of Bohemia and a fair share of archbishops. Perhaps Luxembourg’s most lasting impression on the empire was the Golden Bull of 1365, a decree that would determine how Holy Roman emperors would be elected for over four centuries, until the empire’s dissolution in 1806. It was issued by Emperor Charles IV of Luxembourg, king of Bohemia [8], who in 1354 elevated his ancestral county to a duchy.

Unfortunately, Luxembourg soon lost control of its own fate. In 1441 Duchess Elizabeth sold it to Burgundy; it later passed into Hapsburg hands and was eventually integrated into the Netherlands as one of its 17 provinces. Lack of an independent dynasty meant an end to Luxembourg’s influence in the world, and it eventually fell under the geopolitical knife. Like once enormous Poland, to the east, it suffered three partitions, resulting in the bonsai nation it currently is.

In fact, the three countries surrounding present-day Luxembourg all own territory that once belonged to the Duchy of Luxembourg, and they all at one point or another demanded its total annexation into their own territory. In 1659, the Treaty of the Pyrenees [9] accorded just over 400 square miles (or 10 percent of its size at the time) of Luxembourg to France, which gained the fortified cities of Stenay, Thionville and Montmédy. At the Congress of Vienna in 1815, Prussia got the fort at Bitburg, and all lands west of a new riverine border [10], further reducing Luxembourg by 880 square miles (or an additional 24 percent of the original). Part of these lands would go to Belgium after the Treaty of Versailles in 1919.

But the worst loss occurred in 1839, when the Netherlands accepted the Treaty of London, formally recognising Belgian independence. In return, the Dutch king William I got to keep the eastern halves of Limburg and Luxembourg, provinces which had nevertheless cheered on Belgium’s secession. As a result, the grand duchy lost its western half (1,687 square miles, or 42 percent of its territory at its largest extension) to Belgium, which still has a province also called Luxembourg. William remained grand duke of the eastern half of Luxembourg, establishing a personal union [11] with the Netherlands that would last until 1890.

And of course the country didn’t avoid the horrors of 20th century Europe, either: in the first half of the 20th century, Germany brutally occupied Luxembourg twice, annexing it outright the second time.

That list of unfortunate events would be enough justification for a grand duchy to be brimming with resentment, with local politicians falling over one another demanding the return of the lost territories, a condition common to many once grand nations. But political extremism is a fringe movement in Luxembourg politics —probably so small that it can be identified as that one guy fuming behind his Weissbier in a bar in Echternach.

Instead, Luxembourg has sublimated irredentism, that unpalatable side dish of nationalism, into something much more powerful. Outwardly, the Luxembourgers are the best students of the European class. Their national motto, rendered in Luxembourgish, is: “Mir wölle bleiwe, wat mir sin” (“We want to stay what we are”), a good summary of the folksy, don’t-rock-the-boat conservatism that dominates the political scene.

But the real slogan might just as well be: “We want to become what we were”: European power brokers, as they were in the Middle Ages. Luxembourg is stealthily positioning itself as the central pivot of a new supernational zone within Europe, generically called the Grande Région.

This Greater Region of Luxembourg is one of Europe’s many cross-border cooperations called Euroregions, welding Luxembourg with the Walloon region of Belgium (including its German-speaking area), the French region of Lorraine, and the German states of Saarland and Rhineland-Palatinate. The Greater Region [12] is much wider than the old Greater Luxembourg, comprising an area of 25,250 square miles and counting more than 11 million inhabitants [13].

Ostensibly only a forum to discuss economic, social, cultural and tourist affairs, the Greater Region of Luxembourg could nevertheless be seen as the inchoate resurrection of an ancient European entity: Middle Francia [14], the centerpiece of Charlemagne’s empire. It’s been a long time coming: While the empire’s eastern and western parts later evolved into Germany and France, Middle Francia — extending in a narrow corridor from the North Sea to the Mediterranean — did not survive its creation at the Treaty of Verdun, in 843 A.D., for very long.

Perhaps this is Luxembourg’s insurance policy in case the European Union goes to the dogs. Plan A is to be the best student in the European class, at which is excels. Plan B is to recreate Middle Francia, but this time as a viable third way between France and Germany. Middle Francia’s undoing was its lack of cultural cohesion. Perhaps the Luxembourgers, fluently trilingual, can turn that defect around to an advantage. And maybe one day, Europeans tired of a superstate dominated by France and Germany will resolutely declare, from Amsterdam to Athens: “Mir wölle bleiwe, wat mir sin.”


http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/17/whos-afraid-of-greater-luxembourg/

[Rudel]

Joining France would be a good idea to ensure the destruction of Walloon culture and their ethnic identity since France, with it's traditions of Jacobinism and centralisation has already wrecked and Parisinafied just about every French region and they would definitely dump all the immigrants there (and their offspring then can't be dislodged anymore because of the French nationality laws).
Well, except that Wallonia is partially the cradle of French culture, the cradle of the first race of France (the Merovingians) and so on. Being forced to treat them as foreigners is an oddity.



France includes Martinique and Reunion and as such France never has any problems in controlling non-French places. Look at South Flanders, for example.
Flanders is a part of France that drifted away (regardless of language, defining ethnicity by linguistics came much latter), not the other way around.


Does the same go for Flemish and Breton in France ? No it doesn't.. and you know that too.
I'm personally not against giving some space to indigenous dialects in France, but you've got to be realistic. The towns in Brittany where people would actually be able to understand a council hold in Breton can be counted in the fingers of one hand.
I'm not even talking about the Westhoek, where Flemish is now essentially symbolic and people would rather speak standard Dutch for transborder activities.


Actually, Dutch/Flemish culture is not an inferior culture at all... the conquest of America, the painters, the sailors, protestantism (in the case of NL), the architecture...
Now, that doesn't mean it should be shoven down everyone's throat.

Unfortunately I must say, the French education is totally silent toward the NL, for some reason... The French know about Italy, a little about England... but about Netherlands? I noticed that even among french historians, the Dutch revolt is almost unknown. For many French, the Netherlands is as known as Estonia or Slovakia, that's a bit sad.
Maybe the idea of Netherlands is fundamentally anti-French (the backfiring of Napoleon conquest?), I don't know.
You're right about the Arts. Though virtually everybody knows about Rembrandt, that's a no brainer.

I'm also sad people don't know about the artistic dynamic between France, the Flanders (then the jewel of Burgundy) and Italy during the end of the Middle Ages. It's been decisive for painting and music.

Overall people have no feelings towards the Netherlands whatsoever. It's just that place with the city that sells weed.


I think the main reason why so many flunk their French is because it is (at present) a useless subject. So I think that learning French should be made useful: dump French French and instead buy Belgian books and teach the children to speak Belgian French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_French) and since Belgium is just around the corner for us this is where the schools can plan their trips: day trips to Brussels and Namur (if they are close enough to the border) and school holidays in the Ardennes (it's just around the corner and relatively affordable). And student exchanges ? Mainly with Flemish and Walloon students. In that way it is no longer a useless subject but a tool for inter-Benelux cooperation.
Belgian French is nothing more than an accent, it's not a dialect or anything different (unlike Walloon).



English < Norman = French

cabbage < caboche = chou

candle < caundèle = chandelle

castle < caste(l) = château

cauldron < caudron = chaudron

causeway < cauchie = chaussée

catch < cachi = chasser

cater < acater = acheter

wicket < viquet = guichet

plank < planque = planche

pocket < pouquette = poche

fork < fouorque = fourche

garden < gardin = jardin

cattle < *cate(l) = cheptel

Caboche still exists in modern French as slang for "head". It's similar to "noggin".

It may interest you that, as far as we now from what's left of it, proto-Insular Romance (the Vulgar Latin spoken in Britain that would have evolved to a Romance language without the hordes of barbarian German seafarers that invaded it) was, like the Central
French (not necessarily Parisian) of Anglo-Norman times and like Modern French, a "ch" Romance language, while the Norman dialect was a "c" one.

Even if England and Burgundy had won the war against France, which would have made a crown over the Channel and English disappear (if only by virtue of demographics, the putative Anglo-French lands being much more populated), the subsisting French in Britain wouldn't have been strictly Anglo-Norman but something more pan-French, as England had been culturally inserting itself within the larger French-speaking world (the courts of Normandy-England, Champagne, Flanders, Lorraine etc. have played a bigger role initially in the literarization of French than the court of France proper, and by a long shot).


As for Luxembourg, it's commonly joke in Lorraine that it's one of our départements that happens to be sovereign.

Regarding the article above, I'm tired of that bloody statement : « While the empire’s eastern and western parts later evolved into Germany and France. »
It's purely and simply false. The Easternmost parts indeed evolved in the Germanic magma that became Germany after it was emancipated from Frankish rule, but France was called France before, during and after Carolingian times (considering Francia drifted into France as Latin drifted into French).

[barbatus]

The Luxembourgers are a distinct ethnicity. They are perhaps most related to the Germans. As several other posters have stated, Luxembourgers have their own language and culture separate from their neighbors. Any attempt to claim the Luxembourgers are German, French, Belgian (be it Flemish or Walloon) or Dutch is merely expansionist nationalism on their part and has no basis in reality. It would be similar in nature to claiming Slovenes are "Mountain Croats".

[Rudel]

It would be similar in nature to claiming Slovenes are "Mountain Croats".
Slovenes are mountain Croats.