Bosnian genocide

[Hurrem sultana]

Srebrenica genocide: worst massacre in Europe since the Nazis

Ratko Mladic's Bosnian Serb forces added small hilltown by the river Drina to Europe's litany of 20th century infamy


Guernica, Oradour, Katyn, Auschwitz are but a beginning in Europe's litany of 20th-century infamy. The list lengthened towards the century's end to include Srebrenica, a small hilltown by the river Drina on Bosnia's eastern border with Serbia.

On 13 July 1995, in one of the last acts of the 42-month Bosnia war, General Ratko Mladic's Bosnian Serb force, which for two years had besieged the enclave of 40,000 Muslims, attacked.

It was an easy, bold and brutal conquest that shamed the international community. A few hundred Dutch peacekeepers were stationed in Srebrenica, which had gained the status of a UN-protected "safe area". Mladic bet correctly that the international community was too lily-livered to carry out its pledge to protect the enclave.

It is what happened next that earned Srebrenica its grim place in history. Fearful of a commander who had earned a reputation as a vengeful psychopath, the males of Srebrenica fled to the hills and the forests, trying to make it to the safety of Tuzla. Over 10 days, almost 8,000 of them were rounded up and shot in an operation that required extraordinary levels of planning and logistics. It was the worst single crime of the Yugoslav wars of the 1990s. It was the worst massacre in Europe since the Nazi era.

Years of forensic work and exhumations followed. Many of the victims are now buried at a special site at Potocari, the camp where the Dutch peacekeepers were based.

The UN's war crimes tribunal for former Yugoslavia and the international court of justice have both established as a juridical fact that the massacre was an act of genocide, the gravest crime there is – and the hardest to prove.

In a landmark 2004 ruling, Theodor Meron, the American judge who presided over the tribunal in The Hague, said: "By seeking to eliminate a part of the Bosnian Muslims, the Bosnian Serb forces committed genocide. They targeted for extinction the 40,000 Bosnian Muslims living in Srebrenica ...They stripped all the male Muslim prisoners, military and civilian, elderly and young, of their personal belongings and identification, and deliberately and methodically killed them solely on the basis of their identity."

[brunette]

What is the point in this thread sweetie, to make people aware?

[Hurrem sultana]

the youngest victim found in Srebrenica massacre was only a baby-1 year old-Nezir Suljic!!!!


the oldest was Redzo Purdic 82 year old

:(:(

[Hurrem sultana]

What is the point in this thread sweetie, to make people aware?

yes,it is important to talk about this

[Onur]

cYiaX2Jxyag

I still cannot believe how come these 1000s of people stood still and waited for the Serbs to kill them all one by one for days. It was obvious why Mladic took over Srebrenica from pathetic UN soldiers. So, rather than waiting to die like a sheep, i don't understand why they didn't resist. Probably thats why Mladic choose these Bosnian weaklings to relieve his anger of Turks upon them and his so-called revenge for the events in 14th century;
X-7H5rX77P4

If Mladic would really be a hero as some Serbs claims so, then he would had deal with the real Turks, with us, not with the aged Bosnian peasants.

[Hurrem sultana]

this boy was only a baby!

http://i39.tinypic.com/2s6lbf5.jpg

[rhiannon]

this boy was only a baby!

http://i39.tinypic.com/2s6lbf5.jpg

Sickening.

Bastard sons of bitches:mad::mad:

[Kanuni]

If Mladic would really be a hero as some Serbs claims so, then he would had deal with the real Turks, with us, not with the aged Bosnian peasants.

That is human nature!Killing the Bosnian Muslims as you say meant as kind of revenge toward Ottomans some kind of modern Crusade and they thought no one in Europe would care since they are firstly Muslims latter human beings.This kind of extreme viewpoint comes from the influence of their Orthodox Church,that is why secularization of institutions is very important for a modern society.

[Aramis]

yes,it is important to talk about this

Yes, we are able to notice the level of popularity Jews gained among others with this approach. From Holocaust to Lolocaust.

[brunette]

I have friends from Bosnia and Serbia I asked a Serbian friend of mine Vladimir what was it over and he said that the Turks and Albanians had driven alot of Serbians from Kosovo. He always told me that the Serbians had their houses bought from Albanians who got rich from the Turks and that they had just simply sold their houses and lands to Albanians. But my point is-why the whole Bosnian and Serbian conflict. I don't think it's just because Bosnians are Muslim and Serbians are Orthodox Christians, that would be too easy. There must be something more sinister behind the conflict between the two nations.

[Onur]

Btw, something hidden from the world public in the Bosnian war is the participation of foreign orthodox mujaheddins to the genocide. By whom? Ofc no other than Greeks;
ttL1XsZFqeQ

[iNird]

I have friends from Bosnia and Serbia I asked a Serbian friend of mine Vladimir what was it over and he said that the Turks and Albanians had driven alot of Serbians from Kosovo. He always told me that the Serbians had their houses bought from Albanians who got rich from the Turks and that they had just simply sold their houses and lands to Albanians. But my point is-why the whole Bosnian and Serbian conflict. I don't think it's just because Bosnians are Muslim and Serbians are Orthodox Christians, that would be too easy. There must be something more sinister behind the conflict between the two nations.

Yes it is a wide known fact Albanians got rich from Turks and bought up Serb houses. I used my funds, given by the Turks , and bought a M3. I'm still awaiting my Turkish pension next month to buy a ipad

:thumb001:

[Rron]

I have friends from Bosnia and Serbia I asked a Serbian friend of mine Vladimir what was it over and he said that the Turks and Albanians had driven alot of Serbians from Kosovo. He always told me that the Serbians had their houses bought from Albanians who got rich from the Turks and that they had just simply sold their houses and lands to Albanians. But my point is-why the whole Bosnian and Serbian conflict. I don't think it's just because Bosnians are Muslim and Serbians are Orthodox Christians, that would be too easy. There must be something more sinister behind the conflict between the two nations.
You asked bosnian what is point of this thread in your earlier post!!! , now im asking you what is your point by mentioning Albanians here, what we have to do with this thread actually.
bosnian good point , lets everyone know the facts about what happened here in our areas during those years of war, let all be informed.

[Hurrem sultana]

Btw, something hidden from the world public in the Bosnian war is the participation of foreign orthodox mujaheddins to the genocide. By whom? Ofc no other than Greeks;
ttL1XsZFqeQ

true

[brunette]

Yes it is a wide known fact Albanians got rich from Turks and bought up Serb houses. I used my funds, given by the Turks , and bought a M3. I'm still awaiting my Turkish pension next month to buy a ipad

:thumb001:

:) So Albanians never gained anything from the Turks like apart of Kosovo. It was a shame that the Bosnians were dragged into it. I believe the Serbians and Bosnians can put their differences aside. Next you'll be telling me Albanians don't support Kosovo. :thumb001:

[Hurrem sultana]

this is not about the albanians,please respect!!!

[brunette]

Btw, something hidden from the world public in the Bosnian war is the participation of foreign orthodox mujaheddins to the genocide. By whom? Ofc no other than Greeks;
ttL1XsZFqeQ

A few members of Golden Dawn Avgis did ( that's the Greek Far Right group ) But that doesn't mean the whole of Greece did.

[Kanuni]

Yes, we are able to notice the level of popularity Jews gained among others with this approach. From Holocaust to Lolocaust.

That is not level of popularity but rather historically proven event just as the Bosnian genocide.

[Loki]

:) So Albanians never gained anything from the Turks like apart of Kosovo. It was a shame that the Bosnians were dragged into it. I believe the Serbians and Bosnians can put their differences aside. Next you'll be telling me Albanians don't support Kosovo. :thumb001:

brunette please do not off-topic this one too.

[Hurrem sultana]

Timeline: Siege of Srebrenica



Timeline: Siege of Srebrenica

In the summer of 1995, two years after being designated a United Nations Safe Area, the Bosnian town of Srebrenica became the scene of the worst massacre in the Bosnian war.
This is an account of the critical days leading up to the killings
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/675945.stm

[Rron]

I asked what is the point in this thread because there are two sides to every conflict and you have to get to the root of the problem. My point is why did Bosnia get ''ethnically cleansed by the Serbians'' to begin with...I'll tell you why, it's because of you!
So ''Bosnia was ethnically cleansed because of us'' , spare us please im off of this discussion with you .

[Onur]

That is human nature!Killing the Bosnian Muslims as you say meant as kind of revenge toward Ottomans some kind of modern Crusade and they thought no one in Europe would care since they are firstly Muslims latter human beings.This kind of extreme viewpoint comes from the influence of their Orthodox Church,that is why secularization of institutions is very important for a modern society.
100% agree.

This is about the false indoctrination of their church and state. Did you know that the Serbs still mourns for the people in memorial who have died in a battle they had lost vs Turks? The battle of Kosovo in the year of 1389!!!. They pray for their Prince and I think they honor him as a Saint just because he supposedly killed the Turkish sultan. They do nationwide memorial ceremonies for it every year. I saw it on the tv news.

I mean, this is madness. Why would anyone with a sane mind mourns for something happened ~650 years ago? This is not about history or religion, this is about keeping the hate alive inside the people`s minds. This is just politics.


Number two Before the Ottoman Empire there was no problem between Serbians and Bosnians
This is not that true.

Bosnians were Bogomils before Turks gone there. They were constantly being massacred by the catholics from north and orthodoxs from east/west/south. When Turkish reign started in there, their persecution is completely stopped because Ottoman authority never allows such a thing to occur in their lands. This is exactly why Bosnians willingly and quickly converted to islam en masse. Their prominent Bogomil leader has choosen islam first and called all the Bogomils to accept islam and they did so. There are documents and pictures about this event.

Already, the concept of Jesus in Bogomilism and islam was quite same. Both considered Jesus as a prophet and a human, not divine being.

[Geronimo]

This thread needs Guapo :) I wonder on who's side Mary will be ?

[Mary]

1) Srebrenica was supposed to be a "safe area" for civilians. The Muslim troops would attack Serb villages and kill Serb civilians and then retreat back into the "safe area".

2) When the Serbs showed up the Muslims threw away their uniforms and hid behind the Dutch.

3) The Serbs bussed out Muslim women and children at their own expense and despite that they were low on fuel.

[Hurrem sultana]

http://bregava.com/sadrzaj/2009/07/Srebrenica+Genocide+Memorial+in+Potocari+8372+Vict ims.JPG

[Hurrem sultana]

a very interesting documentary from bbc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id4wtBJHMdU

[Kanuni]

This is not that true.

Bosnians were Bogomils before Turks gone there. They were constantly being massacred by the catholics from north and orthodoxs from east/west/south. When Turkish reign started in there, their persecution is completely stopped because Ottoman authority never allows such a thing to occur in their lands. This is exactly why Bosnians willingly and quickly converted to islam en masse. Their prominent Bogomil leader has choosen islam first and called all the Bogomils to accept islam and they did so. There are documents and pictures about this event.

Already, the concept of Jesus in Bogomilism and islam was quite same. Both considered Jesus as a prophet and a human, not divine being.

Good point, on the other hand we have the Native Anatolians who holded heretic Orthodox beliefs and were persecuted by the Byzantines, the Ottomans succeeded to incorporate and assimilate them in numbers because they were more tolerant be it politically motivated or whatever.

One of the reasons why many of this people adopted Islam was that this religion was not alien to their previous beliefs.

Sorry for the offtopic.

[brunette]

Bosnians and Serbs are of the same blood, but often had different loyalties. I think it's important to look at the conflict between Bosniaks and Serbs from every generation within the century and beyond, because each generation was traumatized and became thirsty for blood. The Serbian population had been decimated in the first world war, before that there were Balkan wars, before that bloody revolts etc. The Fascist backed Croats and Bosniaks took part in massacres of Serbs during WW2, the Serbs were systematically exterminated. When nationalism came back to Yugoslavia in the 90's, you saw the old fears/hatreds come back.

For a Turk to come on this thread to stir shit only adds insult to injury, Turks only divided their subjects so as to make us less threatening.

Wounds eventually heal and hopefully the new generations will not have to be tormented by war so they can recognize how similar, rather than different they are.

You mean the Handzar or Tito? Lol, I heard the Serbians weren't even allowed to return back to Kosovo because Tito didn't want any tension. It's weird that any Eastern Europeans or Southern Europeans would engage in any sort of Nazi doctrine to begin with.

[Loki]

I am quite disgusted that the Dutch troops did not get NATO support earlier, and sufficiently. This is inexcusable.

[brunette]

The Turkish boy..He's a Macedonian so I go easy on him. :)

[brunette]

Good point, on the other hand we have the Native Anatolians who holded heretic Orthodox beliefs and were persecuted by the Byzantines, the Ottomans succeeded to incorporate and assimilate them in numbers because they were more tolerant be it politically motivated or whatever.

One of the reasons why many of this people adopted Islam was that this religion was not alien to their previous beliefs.

Sorry for the offtopic.

It's not off topic, it's relevant to the Balkan war conflict.

[Mary]

I am quite disgusted that the Dutch troops did not get NATO support earlier, and sufficiently. This is inexcusable.

The Dutch have nothing to do with it. The Muslims were fully capable of defending themselves they just chose not to.

[Panopticon]

Ironically, the Serb presence seen in Bosnia today came with the Turks. However, that's another story for another thread.

A good article by Michael Dobbs.



Why Srebrenica?

I am planning to shift gears this week and examine the responsibility borne by the United States and other western governments for Srebrenica. While it is clear that primary responsibility for the worst massacre in Europe since World War II lies with the perpetrators, the international community must also bear a share of the blame through its inaction and fecklessness in declaring a "safe area" it was unable -- or unwilling -- to protect.

Before I get into that subject, however, I would like to answer a question raised by some readers. Why Srebrenica? Why pay so much attention to a tragedy in an obscure corner of the Balkans that took place nearly seventeen years ago? After all, Srebrenica was hardly the only war crime committed during the terrible, five year war in the former Yugoslavia. An exclusive focus on Srebrenica also obscures atrocities committed by the Croats and the Muslims, making it appear that the Serbs were the only guilty party.

It is true that representatives of other ethnic groups carried out "crimes against humanity." The Yugoslav war crimes tribunal found the Croatian general, Ante Gotovina, guilty of "wanton destruction," the purpose of which was "the permanent removal of the Serb population from the Krajina region in Croatia by force." It is worth noting that 580,000 Serbs lived in Croatia prior to 1991, mainly in Krajina. That figure is down to around 200,000 today. The expulsion of Serbs from the Krajina region was one of the most successful examples of "ethnic cleansing" in the former Yugoslavia. Gotovina and other Croatian generals who carried out this campaign are still considered heroes by many Croats.

Muslims also committed war crimes, albeit fewer in number than the other ethnic groups, reflecting their position as the weakest of the three parties. Two senior Bosnian army officers were found guilty of failing to take reasonable measures to prevent plundering and cruel treatment of civilians in central Bosnia. The Muslim warlord, Naser Oric, was eventually acquitted of murder and "wanton destruction" in Serbian villages around Srebrenica-but only because it was difficult to prove that he had exercised effective control over subordinates who had actually committed the crimes.

And then there are all the other crimes committed by forces under the command of Ratko Mladic: murders of prisoners, the shelling of civilian areas of Sarajevo, concentration camps, the raping of women, the ethnic cleansing of large swathes of Bosnia at the beginning of the war. If everything that happened in Srebrenica had already happened beforehand, what is it that makes Srebrenica unique?

It is partly a question of scale. The cold-blooded murder of around 7,000 prisoners was unprecedented, even by Bosnian standards. A series of trials in The Hague has established that it required the machinery of the Bosnian Serb state, and army, to kill so many people. Most of these men and boys were killed in a period of just three days after the fall of Srebrenica. Out of the 30,000 missing people in Bosnia, one in four came from Srebrenica.

And then there is the continuing cover-up, beginning with the re-excavation of mass graves and scattering of victims' remains in dozens of different secondary gravesites. To this day, the Bosnian Serb authorities are funding an effort to deny the basic facts of Srebrenica, as evidenced by comments to this blog from members of a Republika Srpska-funded organization calling itself the Srebrenica Historical Project.

But the Srebrenica tragedy also commands our attention because it took place under the noses of a United Nations peacekeeping force dispatched to create a "safe area." Srebrenica has become a symbol of the failure of international humanitarian intervention in the years immediately following the end of the Cold War, not in some remote corner of Africa, but within an hour flying time from major European capitals.

The author of the 1999 United Nations report on Srebrenica, David Harland, put it this way in a PBS interview.

[Srebrenica has] taken on a significance of its own, and I think that it's crying out for an explanation. Not just of what the Serbs did in Srebrenica and to the people of Srebrenica, but also what the international community did or didn't do and what it could have done...I think that Srebrenica has become of those iconic tragedies, which is remembered even when the rest of the conflict is largely forgotten.

It is this aspect -- the international aspect -- of the Srebrenica tragedy that I want to explore next.

http://dobbs.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/03/13/why_srebrenica

[The Journeyman]

Where did my post go?

[MandM]

very interesting documantery, how bosnian govorment betrayed there own people, thinks its onely fair to se boths sides of the story

RUuhSGnLvv8

[Onur]

The Dutch have nothing to do with it. The Muslims were fully capable of defending themselves they just chose not to.
It obvious that you have no idea what happened in srebrenica, Mary the troll christian in burqa!!

Srebrenica was a security zone covered by only Dutch battalion in the name of UN. Also it was a zone under blockade by the Serbs. So people had no guns and any weapon. When Serbian soldiers tried to invade it, Dutch soldiers just surrendered them and Serbs taken them as a hostage.

Serbs had a deal with the Dutch commander to hand over Srebrenica for the return of Dutch hostages and they agreed by having a champagne;
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/_np/5267/11085267.jpg
You can see Ratko Mladic and Dutch commander here

Then Serbs gathered every men above 14 years of age in town and killed them all in just 4 days, threw their bodies in to the pits.

Also it wasn't the Bosnians who started the war. Actually i cant even call that a war because Bosnians had no proper army or ammunition but on the other hand, Serbs had it all as well as their Greek Orthodox Mujaheddins support.

[The Journeyman]

Bosnians and Serbs are of the same blood, but had different loyalties. I think it's important to look at the conflict between Bosniaks and Serbs from every generation within the century and beyond, because each generation was traumatized and became thirsty for blood. The Serbian population had been decimated in the first world war, before that there were Balkan wars, before that bloody revolts etc. The Fascist backed Croats and Bosniaks took part in massacres of Serbs during WW2, the Serbs were systematically exterminated. When nationalism came back to Yugoslavia in the 90's, you saw the old fears/hatreds come back.

For a Turk to come on this thread to stir shit only adds insult to injury, Turks only divided their subjects so as to make us less threatening.

Wounds eventually heal and hopefully the new generations will not have to be tormented by war so they can recognize how similar, rather than how different they are.

[Hurrem sultana]

I am quite disgusted that the Dutch troops did not get NATO support earlier, and sufficiently. This is inexcusable.


It is a sad and shameful "chapter" of the UN history certainly

[The Lawspeaker]

I am quite disgusted that the Dutch troops did not get NATO support earlier, and sufficiently. This is inexcusable.
Some 500 men and almost no munition and no heavy weapons. Way to go, UN, soft-hearted Jew York pricks without a fucking backbone.

[brunette]

Bosnians and Serbs are of the same blood, but had different loyalties. I think it's important to look at the conflict between Bosniaks and Serbs from every generation within the century and beyond, because each generation was traumatized and became thirsty for blood. The Serbian population had been decimated in the first world war, before that there were Balkan wars, before that bloody revolts etc. The Fascist backed Croats and Bosniaks took part in massacres of Serbs during WW2, the Serbs were systematically exterminated. When nationalism came back to Yugoslavia in the 90's, you saw the old fears/hatreds come back.

For a Turk to come on this thread to stir shit only adds insult to injury, Turks only divided their subjects so as to make us less threatening.

Wounds eventually heal and hopefully the new generations will not have to be tormented by war so they can recognize how similar, rather than how different they are.

We read it dude. :)

[Hurrem sultana]

May souls of all children who perished in Srebrenica Genocide rest in peace:

BEGIĆ BEGO MEHMEDALIJA 04.01.1989

MUSIĆ SELMA SALIM 1709987188742 17.09.1987

EFENDIĆ MELIHA ŠEVKO 2803987188122 28.03.1987

SMAJLOVIĆ FAHRUDIN JUSUF 01.01.1983

BOŠNJAKOVIĆ AMER MEHO 1109982000000 11.09.1982

HASANOVIĆ REMZUDIN HASIB 101982000000 01.01.1982

ŠABIĆ ELVIS IBRAHIM 1012981181354 10.12.1981

ALIĆ MEHRUDIN ŠAĆIR 25.10.1981

MALAGIĆ IZUDIN OHRAN 2210981183128 22.10.1981

TURKOVIĆ ADMIN ADEM 30.09.1981

VARNICA MEHMED ASIM 207981183731 02.07.1981

ALIĆ OSMAN BAJRO 805981774556 08.05.1981

DERVIŠEVIĆ SENUDIN BEKIR 14.05.1981

OMEROVIĆ ADIL BEHADIL 10.05.1981

MUMINOVIĆ SAUDIN FEHIM 1604981183742 16.04.1981

AJŠIĆ MUJO ĆAMIL 12.03.1981

BAJRAKTAREVIĆ ESAD BEGO 1503981000000 15.03.1981

BEGIĆ BEGO MEHMEDALIJA 1602981183138 16.02.1981

ČEVIĆ NEVZET FIKRET 701981774548 07.01.1981

GABELJIĆ RIJAD IBRAN 301981000000 03.01.1981

HALILOVIĆ DENIS SELMO 101981188188 01.01.1981

MEMIĆ AVDIJA EMIN 01.01.1981

SMAJLOVIĆ (RAŠID) HAJRO 25. 3. 1980

BEGANOVIĆ SENAD RAMO 2412980000000 24.12.1980

PLANIĆ EŠEF OSMAN 29.12.1980

MANDŽIĆ EMIR AHMET 1410980000000 14.10.1980

SELIMOVIĆ HAZIM ADIL 1610980181355 16.10.1980

SULJIĆ DAHMO ĆAMIL 710980183138 07.10.1980

ADEMOVIĆ FATMIR DŽEMAL 1709980181351 17.09.1980

MUSTAFIĆ MUNIR MUJO 3009980791015 30.09.1980

ADEMOVIĆ EDIN ŠABAN 108980774517 01.08.1980

ALIĆ OMER OSMAN 2908980000000 29.08.1980

MALATIĆ HASAN SMAIL 24.08.1980

BUDIĆ VELIJA OHRAN 1907980000000 19.07.1980

MAŠIĆ SULJO IBRAHIM 207980183134 02.07.1980

AVDIĆ ZULFO SMAIL 1003942000000 02.06.1980

KLEMPIĆ SUAD SULJO 2006980183764 20.06.1980

MALIĆ AVDO MUJO 2306980774510 23.06.1980

ORIĆ AVDIJA OMER 1606980188123 16.06.1980

SALČINOVIĆ ELVIR TURABIJA 2306980183156 23.06.1980

SELIMOVIĆ IBRAHIM REDŽO 2606980183745 26.06.1980

AVDIĆ ADMIR RAMO 3105980774519 31.05.1980

DERVIŠEVIĆ BEHRUDIN BEKIR 2105980791010 21.05.1980

many more here:http://www.srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.se/2008/01/children-victims-srebrenica-genocide.html

[brunette]

You have to in any conflict tell the full story there's two sides to every story. The point is why did the Serbians and Bosnians fight to begin, with lets assume that the Serbians were not Orthodox and the Bosnians were not Muslim.

Maybe we should just get rid of religion altogether. It would stop alot of this and Zionism too, that'll do.

[Grizzly]

cYiaX2Jxyag

I still cannot believe how come these 1000s of people stood still and waited for the Serbs to kill them all one by one for days. It was obvious why Mladic took over Srebrenica from pathetic UN soldiers. So, rather than waiting to die like a sheep, i don't understand why they didn't resist. Probably thats why Mladic choose these Bosnian weaklings to relieve his anger of Turks upon them and his so-called revenge for the events in 14th century;
X-7H5rX77P4

If Mladic would really be a hero as some Serbs claims so, then he would had deal with the real Turks, with us, not with the aged Bosnian peasants.

Your a fucking idiot. The bosnians in the town gave up their weapons due a deal that the UN peace keepers signed with the Serbs making the town a "safe haven." The serbs blockaded the town and the town basically starved and rotted. The serbs had the superior military force and enclosed the town. It wasn't like the Serbs had 5 soldiers blockading the town, they had a army.. Also, what do you want the bosnians to fight back with? Sticks? Rocks?

But then again you are a mongrel turk

[The Lawspeaker]

It obvious that you have no idea what happened in srebrenica, Mary the troll christian in burqa!!

Srebrenica was a security zone covered by only Dutch battalion in the name of UN. Also it was a zone under blockade by the Serbs. So people had no guns and any weapon. When Serbian soldiers tried to invade it, Dutch soldiers just surrendered them and Serbs taken them as a hostage.

Serbs had a deal with the Dutch commander to hand over Srebrenica for the return of Dutch hostages and they agreed by having a champagne;
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/_np/5267/11085267.jpg
You can see Ratko Mladic and Dutch commander here

Then Serbs gathered every men above 14 years of age in town and killed them all in just 4 days, threw their bodies in to the pits.

Also it wasn't the Bosnians who started the war. Actually i cant even call that a war because Bosnians had no proper army or ammunition but on the other hand, Serbs had it all as well as their Greek Orthodox Mujaheddins support.


Karremans, the tall man in the middle, nipping his glass, had only one barely equipped battalion - having some 450 men. Only some machineguns. their own rifles and a couple of armoured cars. That was all.

[Mary]

It obvious that you have no idea what happened in srebrenica, Mary the troll christian in burqa!!

Srebrenica was a security zone covered by only Dutch battalion in the name of UN. Also it was a zone under blockade by the Serbs. So people had no guns and any weapon. When Serbian soldiers tried to invade it, Dutch soldiers just surrendered them and Serbs taken them as a hostage.

Serbs had a deal with the Dutch commander to hand over Srebrenica for the return of Dutch hostages and they agreed by having a champagne;
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/_np/5267/11085267.jpg
You can see Ratko Mladic and Dutch commander here

Then Serbs gathered every men above 14 years of age in town and killed them all in just 4 days, threw their bodies in to the pits.

Also it wasn't the Bosnians who started the war. Actually i cant even call that a war because Bosnians had no proper army or ammunition but on the other hand, Serbs had it all as well as their Greek Orthodox Mujaheddins support.

1) Read what was written by the Dutch commander on site. The Muslims had plenty of weapons. They just chose not to fight.

2) The men in Srebrenica committed atrocities against Serb civilians. Since they didn't want to stand for it, it was necessary to enact a collective punishment.

3) The Bosnians seceded from Yugoslavia, but they didn't want to allow the Bosnian Serbs to secede from Bosnia. If they would have allowed the Serbs to decided for themselves, in accordance with the principle of national self-determination, there wouldn't have been a war in the first place.

4) There were about 100 Greeks in Bosnia. The Muslims got lots of support from Saudi, Iran (probably Turkey too) and the West.

[The Journeyman]

This thread has attracted negative energy. Keep on hating then.

[Rron]

BOSNIAN GENOCIDE: Remembering Serbian-run concentration camps in Bosnia, where Bosniaks (Muslims) and Croats (Catholics) were detained, tortured, and killed:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_s6zY8-yAuYc/SKJQa3J5NKI/AAAAAAAABCI/bRQ-3WuQX0Q/s1600-h/Trnopolje+Concentration+Camp+in+Prijedor+Bosnia.jp g



HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH / Bosnia-Herzegovina / The Unindicted: Reaping the Rewards of "Ethnic Cleansing" / January 1997 Vol. 9, No. 1 (D)


Two of the concentration camps, Omarska and Keraterm, were places where killings, torture, and brutal interrogations were carried out. The third, Trnopolje, had another purpose; it functioned as a staging area for massive deportations of mostly women, children, and elderly men, and killings and rapes also occurred there. The fourth, Manjaca, was referred to by the Bosnian Serbs as a 'prisoner of war camp,' although most if not all detainees were civilians... The Commission of Experts determined that the systematic destruction of the Bosniak community in the Prijedor area met the definition of genocide.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_s6zY8-yAuYc/SKJQa3J5NKI/AAAAAAAABCI/bRQ-3WuQX0Q/s1600-h/Trnopolje+Concentration+Camp+in+Prijedor+Bosnia.jp g





The Prijedor opstina, or administrative district, includes at least seventy-one smaller towns and villages.(1) The names of some are now familiar due to the atrocities which took place there; among them are Kozarac, Omarska, and Trnopolje. While the towns and villages within the wider Prijedor district have their own officials, they are governed by the opstina. Thus, the Prijedor authorities wield influence over a considerable area. Prijedor was considered a strategically important town by the Bosnian Serbs, who wanted to create a corridor between Serbia proper and the Croatian Krajina, which was until 1995 controlled by rebel Serbs in Croatia. As early as 1991, the Serbs organized a Serb-only alternative administration in Opstina Prijedor, under the guidance of a central administration in Banja Luka. The designated Serb "mayor" was Milomir Stakic, a medical doctor who functioned as deputy mayor under the duly elected Bosniak mayor of the town, Muhamed Cehajic.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_s6zY8-yAuYc/SKJQ-z3fQNI/AAAAAAAABCY/jcOdW7enewc/s1600-h/Manjaca+Concentration+Camp+in+Prijedor+Bosnia.jpg

After the Serbs took power on April 30, 1992, they opened at least four detention camps in the Prijedor opstina. Two of the concentration camps, Omarska and Keraterm, were places where killings, torture, and brutal interrogations were carried out. The third, Trnopolje, had another purpose; it functioned as a staging area for massive deportations of mostly women, children, and elderly men, and killings and rapes (2) also occurred there. The fourth, Manjaca, was referred to by the Bosnian Serbs as a "prisoner of war camp," although most if not all detainees were civilians.(3)

"Despite the absence of a real non-Serbian threat, the main objective of the concentration camps, especially Omarska but also Keraterm, seems to have been to eliminate the non-Serb leadership," the U.N. Commission of Experts found. "From the time when the Serbs took power in the district of Prijedor, non-Serbs in reality became outlaws. At times, non-Serbs were instructed to wear white arm bands to identify themselves...According to Serbianregulations, those leaving the district had to sign over their property rights and accept never to return, being told their names would simultaneously be deleted from the census." (4)

According to Ed Vulliamy (5), the first journalist to report from the Omarska camp, "Omarska was a monstrosity: an inferno of murder, torture and rape. It was a stain upon our century." (6)
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_s6zY8-yAuYc/SKJX7sTSwaI/AAAAAAAABCo/3t-rzsDW1Ow/s1600-h/Trnopolje+Concentration+Camp+in+Bosnia.jpg

During the period when many persons were interned in the concentration camps, family members sometimes tried to obtain information from the police station in town. "Instead of receiving information concerning the whereabouts of their family members, they were in some cases offered the alternative of paying for an "exit visa" for the family at large.(7) In order to receive an "exit visa," sums of money had to be paid to various municipal authorities and to the local "Red Cross," run by the Bosnian Serb authorities, and real property had to be signed over to the municipality.

The Commission of Experts determined that the systematic destruction of the Bosniak community in the Prijedor area met the definition of genocide. (8)

The persecution of non-Serbs in Prijedor did not ease after international pressure succeeded in forcing the Bosnian Serbs to close the concentration camps in 1992, as evidenced by the ICRC's attempt to evacuate all remaining non-Serbs from Opstina Prijedor in March 1994. (9)
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_s6zY8-yAuYc/SKJaie3_OKI/AAAAAAAABCw/MzhYB9a6OUE/s1600-h/Trnopolje+Concentration+Camp+Prijedor+Area+in+Bosn ia+1992.gif

As documented by Human Rights Watch/Helsinki, a final wave of mass expulsions of non-Serbs from Prijedor and many other towns in Serb-controlled territory occurred in September and October 1995, when the infamous Zeljko "Arkan" Raznatovic joined local forces to conduct "ethnic cleansing" operations. (10) Forced expulsions in Prijedor began on October 5 during which those expelled were again forced to finance their own "ethnic cleansing" by paying transportation fees to the local "Red Cross" and were harassed, robbed, and threatened while waiting for the buses which would later dump them at the confrontation line. (11)

One woman told Human Rights Watch/Helsinki during a 1995 investigation of the expulsions, "All the Muslims from the city [Prijedor] were expelled. We went to the [local] Red Cross, gave them seventy DM for each family member and got on the buses. . .There were thirteen buses in the convoy leaving from Prijedor for Teslic. Men were taken off my bus. . . My husband was taken off the bus in Blatnica, a Serbian village in the woods." She had not seen her husband since. (12)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_s6zY8-yAuYc/SKJbrUwN5iI/AAAAAAAABC4/e6rs_2EI1-Y/s1600-h/Fikret+Alic+in+Trnopolje+Concentration+Camp.jpg

Many draft-age males were separated from their families during round-ups in other Bosnian Serb-controlled areas, and transferred to Prijedor, where they were interned at the "Autoprevoz" facility or other local detention centers. Following the official closing of the camps in 1992, and until the present, rumors have abounded about the reopening of the Omarska, Manjaca and Keraterm camps, but Human Rights Watch/Helsinki has been unable to confirm them. Prisoners released from "Autoprevoz" in an exchange told Human Rights Watch/Helsinki that when the International Committee of the Red Cross tried to visit them, they were moved by bus onto the Kozara mountain and hidden until the visitors had gone away. (13)

Oppression of the now-minority Bosniak and Bosnian Croat populations throughout Republika Srpska continues today through restrictions on freedom of movement; evictions and expulsions; arbitrary arrest and detention; ethnically motivated harassment and direct physical attack; denial of employment, humanitarian assistance, medical care, and social insurance; discrimination in access to education; and restrictions on religious freedom.



* * * * *



(1) According to the 1991 census, Opstina (administrative district) Prijedor had a total population of 112,470 people, of whom 44 percent were Muslims, 42.5 percent Serbs, 5.6 percent Croats, 5.7 percent "Yugoslavs," and 2.2 percent others (Ukrainians, Russians, and Italians). In April 1992, the total population was approximately 120,000 people, augmented, inter alia, by an influx of people who had fled the destruction of their villages in the west of Opstina Prijedor. United Nations, Final Report of the United Nations Commission of Experts, established pursuant to Security Council resolution 780, (New York: United Nations, 1992), S/1994674/Add.2 (Vol.), December 28, 1994, Annex V, Part 2, Section II, Subsection B.


(2) The U.N. Commission of Experts and many journalists and witnesses have reported extensively on the rape of women by Bosnian Serb forces. The commission, which conducted a special investigation of rape during the war, concluded: "Rape is prevalent in the camps. . .Captors have killed women who resisted being raped, often in front of other prisoners. Rapes were also committed in the presence of other prisoners. Women are frequently selected at random during the night. These rapes are done in a way that instills terror in the women prisoner population. The commission has information indicating that girls as young as seven years old and women as old as sixty-five have been raped while in captivity.. .Mothers of young children are often raped in front of their children and are threatened with the death of their children if they do not submit to being raped. Sometimes young women are separated from older women and taken to separate camps where they are raped several times a day, for many days, often by more than one man. Many of these women disappear, or after they have been raped and brutalized to the point where they are traumatized, they are returned to the camps and are replaced by other young women. There have also been instances of sexual abuse of men as well as castration and mutilation of male sexual organs. Final Report of the United Nations Commission of Experts, Annex V, Part 2, Section IV.

(3) As of June 23, 1993, according to the United Nations Commission of Experts, which conducted an extensive review of war crimes committed in Prijedor municipality, the total number of killed and deported persons was 52,811 (including limited numbers of refugees and people missing). Camps located in or around Prijedor included Omarska, Manjaca, Keraterm, and Trnopolje. See Final Report of the United Nations Commission of Experts, for a detailed description of events around Prijedor in 1992 and throughout the war.


(4) Final Report of the United Nations Commission of Experts, Annex V, Part 2, Section IV.


(5) Ed Vulliamy of The Guardian and Roy Gutman of Newsday were among the first to uncover and gain access to the concentration camps in the Prijedor area in 1992. Vulliamy accompanied non-Serbs as they were being "ethnically cleansed" from the territory, posing as a deaf mute. The two conducted extensive interviews over many months with Bosnian Serb officials, representatives of international organizations including the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), and with survivors of the camps. Roy Gutman was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for his work, and Vulliamy has also been honored. Both Gutman's and Vulliamy's findings have been utilized in war crimes investigations by the ICTY.


(6) Ed Vulliamy, "Yugoslavia: Horror Hidden Beneath Ice and Lies", The Guardian, London, February 19, 1996, p. 9.


(7) Final Report of the U.N. Commission of Experts, Annex V, Part 2, Section IX, Subsection D.


(8) Ibid.


(9) The ICRC's plans to evacuate all non-Serb residents of the town was abandoned after Karadzic refused to grant safe passage for convoys out.


(10) A person who in 1994 left Prijedor told Human Rights Watch/Helsinki that "I hid for two years. People were being killed on the road and I wouldn't have been caught dead walking outside. I stayed in my house from the day I was released from the Keraterm concentration camp on August 13, 1992 until I came here [to Bosnian government-controlled territory] on Saturday [September 17, 1994]. See Human Rights Watch/Helsinki report, "Bosnia-Hercegovina: "Ethnic Cleansing" Continues in Northern Bosnia,"A Human Rights Watch Short Report, vol. 6, no. 16, November 1994. Numerous similar stories have been related to Human Rights Watch/Helsinki representatives.


(11) Ibid.


(12) Ibid.


(13) The information on the expulsion of non-Serbs from Prijedor comes in part from a report of a human rights fact-finding mission which included staff from UNPF-HQ, United Nations Protection Force (UNPROFOR), and the U.N. Center for Human Rights. The report is titled "Human Rights Abuses in Northwestern Bosnia: Report on Forced Expulsions from 5-12 October 1995." For a detailed description of how the forced expulsions were conducted, see Human Rights Watch/Helsinki's report titled "Northwestern Bosnia: Human Rights Abuses during a Cease-Fire and Peace Negotiations," Vol. 8, No. 1 (D), February 1996.


SREBRENICA GENOCIDE IS NOT A MATTER OF ANYBODY'S OPINION; IT'S A JUDICIAL FACT RECOGNIZED FIRST BY THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL TRIBUNAL FOR THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA AND SUBSEQUENTLY BY THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE.

http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/2008/08/concentration-camps-in-bosnia.html

[Onur]

Bosnians and Serbs are of the same blood, but had different loyalties. I think it's important to look at the conflict between Bosniaks and Serbs from every generation within the century and beyond, because each generation was traumatized and became thirsty for blood.
Yes, Bosnians, Serbs and Croatians are of same blood but it`s you who keep calling them as "Turks" for centuries. You are the one who keep alienating them from the society.


For a Turk to come on this thread to stir shit only adds insult to injury, Turks only divided their subjects so as to make us less threatening.
Thats bullshit.

Turkish rule only united you not divided. Like i said, you were constantly killing each other before Turks came because Bosnians was Bogomils, Serbs was orthodox and Croats was catholics. Your conflicts totally ended with Turkish rule and that was the case for centuries. Even your Serbian church has been re-established with the help of muslim Bosnian Sokolovic pasha in 16th century despite the fierce protestation of Istanbul patriarchy at that time. All in all, you had ZERO conflict during the Turkish reign.

After the Turkish reign, you just returned to your usual massacres between each other. You have been divided during Serbian rule and you still curse each other today.

[The Lawspeaker]

The attack never took place. It had to be cancelled when Serbian forces threatened the execution of 50 members of Dutchbat III seized as hostages. Mladić's column then took the town July 11, 1995, causing the displacement of many of the city's inhabitants. About 15,000 displaced persons undertook the flight towards Tuzla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuzla) on foot, but the majority looked for protection from the UN blue helmets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_helmets) in Potocari. During the flight of the column towards Tuzla, Dutch soldier Raviv van Rensen was attacked by the Bosnian Serbs and died.
Dutchbat wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutchbat).

This Dutch site says that he wasn't killed by Serbs but by Muddjahedeen (http://www.acom.nl/default.aspx?pageId=25&year=2010):



Vijftien jaar geleden, op 8 juli 1995, werd soldaat der eerste klasse Raviv van Renssen in Bosnië gedood. Een gerichte granaatworp van een moslimstrijder werd de toen 25-jarige Van Renssen, fataal. De toenmalige minister van Defensie Joris Voorhoeve noemde Raviv van Renssen "een vredesoldaat in de ware betekenis van het woord (-) die het hoogste offer (heeft) gebracht".

De jonge militair was boordschutter van een pantservoertuig (YPR) dat onder vuur kwam te liggen van de mujahedin (moslimstrijders) die van soldaat Van Renssen en zijn collega's eisten dat die aan hun kant de strijd zouden aanbinden tegen de Serviërs. Toen de Nederlandse militairen daar geen gehoor aan gaven openden de mujahedin het vuur op de Nederlanders.

More about the killed Dutch UN-soldier (http://www.acom.nl/default.aspx?pageId=25&year=2010)(in Dutch).

http://www.acom.nl/files/images/100x100/raviv201.jpg

[Hurrem sultana]

We have to keep in mind,not only muslims were the victims,catholics too.2 years ago i was in Potocari when this guy was buried,he was croatian catholic.Rudolf Hren

http://www.ihh.org.tr/uploads/10/11/30/11/568/hren-aleksandar-rudolf.jpg

[brunette]

They were pronounced Turkish when they converted to Islam, that's the only way they could keep all the Balkan ethnicities together. All the Macedonians Greeks Bosnians Bulgarians Albs that converted were Turks it's what the Ottomans called them.

[brunette]

Yes, Bosnians, Serbs and Croatians are of same blood but it`s you who keep calling them as "Turks" for centuries. You are the one who keep alienating them from the society.


Thats bullshit.

Turkish rule only united you not divided. Like i said, you were constantly killing each other before Turks came because Bosnians was Bogomils, Serbs was orthodox and Croats was catholics. Your conflicts totally ended with Turkish rule and that was the case for centuries. Even your Serbian church has been re-established with the help of muslim Bosnian Sokolovic pasha in 16th century despite the fierce protestation of Istanbul patriarchy at that time. All in all, you had ZERO conflict during the Turkish reign.

After the Turkish reign, you just returned to your usual massacres between each other. You have been divided during Serbian rule and you still curse each other today.

It's not bullshit it's religion bullshit. It happenes in the East too in Lebanon and Palestine and even Iran Zionists are using Islam and saying it's in their name.

[Mary]

Your a fucking idiot. The bosnians in the town gave up their weapons due a deal that the UN peace keepers signed with the Serbs making the town a "safe haven." The serbs blockaded the town and the town basically starved and rotted. The serbs had the superior military force and enclosed the town. It wasn't like the Serbs had 5 soldiers blockading the town, they had a army.. Also, what do you want the bosnians to fight back with? Sticks? Rocks?

But then again you are a mongrel turk

That's nonsense. Srebrenica was taken over by a handful of men in a rusty APC. Read the account by the Dutch commander.

[brunette]

This is all about religion oh please, not race. Religion is the number one scource the root of all evil it is another way for Zionists to do what they wanted to do, to play on peoples' weekness.

[Hurrem sultana]

SREBRENICA GENOCIDE IS NOT A MATTER OF ANYBODY'S OPINION; IT'S A JUDICIAL FACT RECOGNIZED FIRST BY THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL TRIBUNAL FOR THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA AND SUBSEQUENTLY BY THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE.

[brunette]

Why would the Dutch help to begin with?

[Rron]

I see that in my previous post photos of peoples in concetration camps are not appearing , but you can see photos when you open the link.

[brunette]

Yes but WHY did it happen to begin with? You think that the Russians the Greeks the Serbians the Armenians just suddenly wake up and say '' ok, i'm going to kill some Muslims today''

That would make them just as bad as Jews -or even worse Zionists.

[The Lawspeaker]

Why would the Dutch help to begin with?
Because a Dutch battalion (like for instance British and French) had been ordered into Bosnia by the UN to serve as peacekeepers. It was ludicrous. Having to keep the peace in that rat-hole where everyone wanted those soldiers to fight everyone while they had no mandate to fight at all.

So.. what the UN did was simply leaving those peacekeepers out to dry and then blaming it all on the Serbs.

[The Journeyman]

Yes, Bosnians, Serbs and Croatians are of same blood but it`s you who keep calling them as "Turks" for centuries. You are the one who keep alienating them from the society.


Thats bullshit.

Turkish rule only united you not divided. Like i said, you were constantly killing each other before Turks came because Bosnians was Bogomils, Serbs was orthodox and Croats was catholics. Your conflicts totally ended with Turkish rule and that was the case for centuries. Even your Serbian church has been re-established with the help of muslim Bosnian Sokolovic pasha in 16th century despite the fierce protestation of Istanbul patriarchy at that time. All in all, you had ZERO conflict during the Turkish reign. :rolleyes:

After the Turkish reign, you just returned to your usual massacres among each other. You have been divided during Serbian rule and you still curse each other today.

Well of course they weren't having as much conflict, Ottomans broke the back of the Serbs and elevated the Muslims. The Christian's main enemy was the Turk. What better way to weaken your enemy than impose cruel laws and human tax on those that don't accept Ottoman indoctrination?

[Mary]

Yes but WHY did it happen to begin with? You think that the Russians the Greeks the Serbians the Armenians just suddenly wake up and say '' ok, i'm going to kill some Muslims today''

That would make them just as bad as Jews -or even worse Zionists.

The West support the Muslims against the Serbs. This has nothing to do with Zionists. This is a conflict between the West and Slavs.

[Hurrem sultana]

http://www.ihh.org.tr/uploads/10/11/30/11/1e3/hren-aleksandar-rudolf-mezarlik_500x360cutout.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YEsX1YSC4BA/TiETm2AUXlI/AAAAAAAACqY/w1QEOe7HAZ8/s640/Bosnian+Genocide+%2528Srebrenica+Massacre%2529+Pho to+Twenty+Eight.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--pmCkm2bwvw/TiEFcYwZnzI/AAAAAAAACo8/371ZDnpZSOg/s640/Bosnian+Genocide+%2528Srebrenica+Massacre%2529+Pho to+Four.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KiKW-u6EoF8/TiEE9zbn-zI/AAAAAAAACo4/keFWjS1S3xs/s640/Bosnian+Genocide+%2528Srebrenica+Massacre%2529+Pho to+Three.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ABThc9BkZEM/TiEHGJpbxYI/AAAAAAAACpE/qxvOc1s_aeI/s640/Bosnian+Genocide+%2528Srebrenica+Massacre%2529+Pho to+Six.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-gtAbNJJV49Q/TiEH4BEGyGI/AAAAAAAACpM/12qKaYlzlWs/s640/Bosnian+Genocide+%2528Srebrenica+Massacre%2529+Pho to+Eight.jpg

[Mary]

Mladic evacuating Muslim civilians:

JRLvfLLFetE

"Let the women and children go first".

[brunette]

They're acting like Zionists when they say Christianity is to blame. That's the way that the Zionists speak when they talk about Islam a scare tactic.

I don't believe the Serbians Armenians Russians and Greeks just wake up and say in their heads i want to kill Muslims

[Minesweeper]

Nothing similar to genocide happened in Srebrenica!

[Radojica]

This thread has attracted negative energy. Keep on hating then.

My laptop get some weird blurring around whenever i open this thread... Some people live on feeding their hate :coffee:

3267 Serbs from the villages around Srebrenica were killed by Naser Oric's troops stationed in Srebrenica....ooooops, what am I doing? That's just not possible that the murderers become victims..shame on me...

[Onur]

This is all about religion oh please, not race. Religion is the number one scource the root of all evil it is another way for Zionists to do what they wanted to do, to play on peoples' weekness.
Thats true.

I will never get tired from repeating this;
The religions [except individualist ones] are the poison of human mind, the source of evil, especially the semitic religions from Jerusalem and Mecca.

If there is an entity called as Satan really exists, i am sure he lives in Vatican and the ones in Israel and Saudi Arabia should be the hellhounds.

[brunette]

Jews kill Muslims just because... Greeks Russians Armenians Bulgarians Serbians etc are not Jews and they don't have their mentality.

[Hurrem sultana]

My laptop get some weird blurring around whenever i open this thread... Some people live on feeding their hate :coffee:

3267 Serbs from the villages around Srebrenica were killed by Naser Oric's troops stationed in Srebrenica....ooooops, what am I doing? That's just not possible that the murderers become victims..shame on me...

you as moderator should not also start with off topics!

if you want open your thread about serbian victims no one stopped you,this thread is not about politics but the genocide/victims

[Minesweeper]

http://www.smedia.rs/vesti/vest/28318/srebrenica-podaci-Vise-od-500-Srebrenicana-zivi-a-na-spisku-stradalih.html

For those who understand Serbian, 500 muslims from Srebrenica on killed list lives in Sarajevo!

[brunette]

Thats true.

I will never get tired from repeating this;
The religions [except individualist ones] are the poison of human mind, the source of evil, especially the semitic religions from Jerusalem and Mecca.

If there is an entity called as Satan really exists, i am sure he lives in Vatican and the ones in Israel and Saudi Arabia should be the hellhounds.

My point exactly :thumb001: None of it has to do with religion many people speak of religion and do bad things. Cathlics in Italy for example with the Pope Saudi Arabians ''claming to be Muslim and not helping the Palestinians'' ( which is a modern day Holocaust IMO ) etc...

[Loki]

Bosnians and Serbs are of the same blood, but had different loyalties. I think it's important to look at the conflict between Bosniaks and Serbs from every generation within the century and beyond, because each generation was traumatized and became thirsty for blood. The Serbian population had been decimated in the first world war, before that there were Balkan wars, before that bloody revolts etc. The Fascist backed Croats and Bosniaks took part in massacres of Serbs during WW2, the Serbs were systematically exterminated. When nationalism came back to Yugoslavia in the 90's, you saw the old fears/hatreds come back.

--

Wounds eventually heal and hopefully the new generations will not have to be tormented by war so they can recognize how similar, rather than how different they are.

Actually, it is now understandable for such actions to have happened during medieval times and even WW2 - only some 60 years ago. But in 1995??? :(

[Vukodav]

I see that some people enjoy in their "victim" role. lets talk about this and keep the wounds fresh... pathetic.

[Hurrem sultana]

Actually, it is now understandable for such actions to have happened during medieval times and even WW2 - only some 60 years ago. But in 1995??? :(

some people are far worse than that,you would be surprised

[Mary]

Mladic hands out candy to Muslim kids:

3hH84Gy9_K8

[The Lawspeaker]

http://www.smedia.rs/vesti/vest/28318/srebrenica-podaci-Vise-od-500-Srebrenicana-zivi-a-na-spisku-stradalih.html

For those who understand Serbian, 500 muslims from Srebrenica on killed list lives in Sarajevo!
If that is true .. we can all be very glad of that.

[The Journeyman]

Actually, it is now understandable for such actions to have happened during medieval times and even WW2 - only some 60 years ago. But in 1995??? :(

Well, I'm not defending anyone really. But brutality does breed brutality. 50 years is still within a lifetime.

[Hurrem sultana]

Mladic hands out candy to Muslim kids:

3hH84Gy9_K8

when the cameras went off..different story! this child does not live

[The Lawspeaker]

when the cameras went off..different story! this child does not live
It's good propaganda material. Probably just as much propaganda as the "when the camera went off.. different story !"- bit. When it comes to former Yugoslavia one would be mental to trust anyone of the resident rats (from either side) or the UN covering it's tracks.

[Minesweeper]

If that is true .. we can all be very glad of that.

But the number of 8372 killed still stands and those 500 resurrected muslims are just top of the ice berg of lies and manipulation. :rolleyes:


when the cameras went off..different story! this child does not live

Can you prove this child was killed?

[The Lawspeaker]

But the number of 8372 killed still stands and those 500 resurrected muslims are just top of the ice berg of lies and manipulation. :rolleyes:

There is no business like genocide business. Hello Jews and Armenians. :coffee:

[purple]

It would be nice to see all Bosniaks returning to their roots and blood. They betrayed Christianity for Islam..should I feel sorry for those who do not remember where they came from?
Sure, this was bad, the war and the torture..but I feel like Bosniaks just forgot they were Christian Serbo-Croats once:coffee: And now most of the country supports Turkey rather than Europe

[brunette]

Get rid of religion. No Islam and no Christianity please.

[Hurrem sultana]

http://genocideinbosnia.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/bosnian-genocide-srebrenica-massacre-of-bosnian-muslim-civilians-in-1992-exhibit-m1.jpg

laughter of Bosniak Children around Srebrenica in 1992
Here is what the Bosnian Serb army had been doing around Srebrenica in 1992, three years before the Srebrenica genocide. According to the International Criminal Tribunal at the Hague (case of Naser Oric):

“Between April 1992 and March 1993, Srebrenica town and the villages in the area held by Bosnian Muslims were constantly subjected to Serb military assaults, including artillery attacks, sniper fire, as well as occasional bombing from aircrafts. Each onslaught followed a similar pattern. Serb soldiers and paramilitaries surrounded a Bosnian Muslim village or hamlet, called upon the population to surrender their weapons, and then began with indiscriminate shelling and shooting. In most cases, they then entered the village or hamlet, expelled or killed the population, who offered no significant resistance, and destroyed their homes. During this period, Srebrenica was subjected to indiscriminate shelling from all directions on a daily basis. Potočari in particular was a daily target for Serb artillery and infantry because it was a sensitive point in the defence line around Srebrenica. Other Bosnian Muslim settlements were routinely attacked as well. All this resulted in a great number of refugees and casualties.”

some terrible pictures,that i wont post here, those who want can check it out:

http://genocideinbosnia.wordpress.com/2011/01/14/slaughter-of-bosniak-children-around-srebrenica-in-1992/

[Mary]

when the cameras went off..different story! this child does not live

Of course he lives. The Serbs didn't kill women and children. Did you miss the video where Mladic buses them off to Muslim territory?

The Serbs only dealt with the men that had targetted Serb civilians previously.


From the morning of 12 July, Serb forces began gathering men and boys from the refugee population in Potočari and holding them in separate locations, and as the refugees began boarding the buses headed north towards Bosniak-held territory, Serb soldiers separated out men of military age who were trying to clamber aboard. Occasionally, younger and older men were stopped as well (some as young as 14 or 15).[60][61][62] These men were taken to a building in Potočari referred to as the “White House”. As early as the evening of 12 July 1995, Major Franken of the Dutchbat heard that no men were arriving with the women and children at their destination in Kladanj.[45]


As a result of exhaustive UN negotiations with Serb troops, around 25,000 Srebrenica women were forcibly transferred to the Government-controlled territory.

The Muslim men fled and left their people behind:


Almost all the 28th Division, 5500 to 6000 soldiers, not all armed, gathered in the village of Susnjari, in the hills north of the town of Srebrenica, along with about 7,000 civilians. They included a very small number of women, not more than ten.[81] Others assembled in the nearby village of Jaglici.[82]
The breakout from the enclave and the attempt to reach Tuzla came as a surprise to the VRS and caused considerable confusion, as the VRS had expected the men to go to Potočari. Serb general Milan Gvero in a briefing referred to members of the column as "hardened and violent criminals who will stop at nothing to prevent being taken prisoner and to enable their escape into Bosnian territory.".[85] The Drina Corps and the various brigades were ordered by the VRS Main Staff to assign all available manpower to the task of finding any Muslim groups observed, preventing them from crossing into Muslim territory, taking them prisoner and holding them in buildings that could be secured by small forces.[86]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre

[brunette]

There is no business like genocide business. Hello Jews and Armenians. :coffee:

LOL the Zionist Jews funded Hitler ( and the SU and the Allies ) and set up the camps. The Othodox Jews were genocided that's why they used to make them wear the star. :coffee:

Infact I don't think i've ever heard about an Orthodox Jew ever talk about how their family were genocided. I've never been fortunate enough to know an Orthodox Jew. :(

[Onur]

Actually, it is now understandable for such actions to have happened during medieval times and even WW2 - only some 60 years ago. But in 1995??? :(
Loki, as long as the politicians have necessary tools to manipulate masses, such as religious dogmas, we can see such events even in 2050, in the future.

Don't think like such horrible events cannot happen anymore. People are killing each other in the name of religion for 1000s of years and as long as they get indoctrinated for that, they will continue to do so.

I gave an example of false indoctrination here;

This is about the false indoctrination of their church and state. Did you know that the Serbs still mourns for the people in memorial who have died in a battle they had lost vs Turks? The battle of Kosovo in the year of 1389!!!. They pray for their Prince and I think they honor him as a Saint just because he supposedly killed the Turkish sultan. They do nationwide memorial ceremonies for it every year. I saw it on the tv news.

I mean, this is madness. Why would anyone with a sane mind mourns for something happened ~650 years ago? This is not about history or religion, this is about keeping the hate alive inside the people`s minds. This is just politics

[Loki]

some people are far worse than that,you would be surprised

Yes, Srebrenica was only highlighted because it was supposed to be a "safe zone". What happened in the 95% of the rest of the territory??? Perhaps we will never know.

[Hurrem sultana]

There is no business like genocide business. Hello Jews and Armenians. :coffee:

you are basically denying the genocide of bosniaks,jews and armeninas.

[brunette]

But hey if Slavic people want to be Nationaists and Southern Europeans good luck to 'em.

They've only got to look at Stormfront etc where they are very blatantly unwanted but that's off topic.

[The Lawspeaker]

LOL the Zionist Jews funded Hitler ( and the SU and the Allies ) and set up the camps. The Othodox Jews were genocided that's why they used to make them wear the star. :coffee:

Infact I don't think i've ever heard about an Orthodox Jew ever talk about how their family were genocided. I've never been fortunate enough to know an Orthodox Jew. :(
I have never met an orthodox Jew because they keep to themselves. But I have met zionist and liberal Jews and they can't shut up about the Holocaust. Apart from one woman that I have met and she (probably dead by now) used to have the tattoo on her arm. I never asked any questions as I simply didn't want to know back then.

Those that are silent about it have suffered the most. Those that haven't can't shut up about it.

[The Lawspeaker]

you are basically denying the genocide of bosniaks,jews and armeninas.
No I say that their suffering makes good business for later generations as it gives them the status of martyrdom and it gives them influence and shit-loads of money and media attention.

As a result I am pretty sceptical about it all since all I can see is the barrage of propaganda.

[Minesweeper]

Anyway, Srebrenica is highly controversial topic, like Markale market bombing or Racak massacre from 1999.

All basically served as an excuse for USA and NATO attacks against Serbs and I'll be free to say that those were nothing more than hoaxes in order to justify military intervention and instal puppet regimes in former Yugoslav republics.

[Mary]

http://genocideinbosnia.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/bosnian-genocide-srebrenica-massacre-of-bosnian-muslim-civilians-in-1992-exhibit-m1.jpg

laughter of Bosniak Children around Srebrenica in 1992
Here is what the Bosnian Serb army had been doing around Srebrenica in 1992, three years before the Srebrenica genocide. According to the International Criminal Tribunal at the Hague (case of Naser Oric):

“Between April 1992 and March 1993, Srebrenica town and the villages in the area held by Bosnian Muslims were constantly subjected to Serb military assaults, including artillery attacks, sniper fire, as well as occasional bombing from aircrafts. Each onslaught followed a similar pattern. Serb soldiers and paramilitaries surrounded a Bosnian Muslim village or hamlet, called upon the population to surrender their weapons, and then began with indiscriminate shelling and shooting. In most cases, they then entered the village or hamlet, expelled or killed the population, who offered no significant resistance, and destroyed their homes. During this period, Srebrenica was subjected to indiscriminate shelling from all directions on a daily basis. Potočari in particular was a daily target for Serb artillery and infantry because it was a sensitive point in the defence line around Srebrenica. Other Bosnian Muslim settlements were routinely attacked as well. All this resulted in a great number of refugees and casualties.”

some terrible pictures,that i wont post here, those who want can check it out:

http://genocideinbosnia.wordpress.com/2011/01/14/slaughter-of-bosniak-children-around-srebrenica-in-1992/

This is because the Muslim troops were using Srebrenica as a base from which they were attacking Serb villages. They should have stopped doing that.

[Loki]

Loki, as long as the politicians have necessary tools to manipulate masses, such as religious dogmas, we can see such events even in 2050, in the future.

Don't think like such horrible events cannot happen anymore. People are killing each other in the name of religion for 1000s of years and as long as they get indoctrinated for that, they will continue to do so.

I gave an example of false indoctrination here;

I feel guilty for sometimes pointing out sporadic incidents in South Africa. This can in no way be compared to wholesale slaughter of thousands of defenseless people in single incidents.

Also, yes you are right stuff that happened 300 years ago are incomparable to 1995. Have we learned anything yet? Thankfully the age of the internet now provides education to the masses.

[Mary]

you are basically denying the genocide of bosniaks,jews and armeninas.

How can it be genocide when you only kill men of military age?

That's a ridiculous claim. If we accept it, then every single war is a genocide.

[Loki]

This is because the Muslim troops were using Srebrenica as a base from which they were attacking Serb villages. They should have stopped doing that.

So ... Muslim troops did something, now children and old people have to be slaughtered. Get fucking real Mary.

[Minesweeper]

This is because the Muslim troops were using Srebrenica as a base from which they were attacking Serb villages.

True, the most famous attack took place on Orthodox Christmas, 1993 when 3000 armed Bosnian soldiers attacked village of Kravica.

[brunette]

I have never met an orthodox Jew because they keep to themselves. But I have met zionist and liberal Jews and they can't shut up about the Holocaust. Apart from one woman that I have met and she (probably dead by now) used to have the tattoo on her arm. I never asked any questions as I simply didn't want to know back then.

Those that are silent about it have suffered the most. Those that haven't can't shut up about it.

Ofcourse they can't shut up about it they give Hitler the money. How would a simple minded man from a illegitimate home in Austria get high status so quickly? That just doesn't happen. The whole creation of Israel has happened so the Germans didn't loose neither did the Zionist Jews and the Allies they have Israel and it's there for them. The Jews the Germans the Palestinians and the rest of the world does suffer the Holocaust is still ongoing..

[Hurrem sultana]

How can it be genocide when you only kill men of military age?


apparently 1,4 and 88 year olds are at military age

also,i know of a few aged ladies that were killed there...my family is from that area,you can not lie to me with Serbian propaganda

[Loki]

Anyway, Srebrenica is highly controversial topic, like Markale market bombing or Racak massacre from 1999.

All basically served as an excuse for USA and NATO attacks against Serbs and I'll be free to say that those were nothing more than hoaxes in order to justify military intervention and instal puppet regimes in former Yugoslav republics.

You are free to say but I've lost all respect for you.

[Mary]

So ... Muslim troops did something, now children and old people have to be slaughtered. Get fucking real Mary.

Serbs didn't kill children and old people. They only killed men of military age.


The Srebrenica massacre, also known as the Srebrenica genocide,[1][2][3][4][5][6] refers to the July 1995 killing, during the Bosnian War, of more than 8,000[7] Bosniaks (Bosnian Muslims), mainly men and boys, in and around the town of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina, by units of the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS) under the command of General Ratko Mladić.

Again:


mainly men and boys

Where do you see children and old people? That has never been claimed as far as I know.

[Hurrem sultana]

You are free to say but I've lost all respect for you.

the worst part is people like him are not THAT rare in Serbia


I am glad to say though more and more people are realizing the truth,,last year the Serbian president Boris Tadic went to the Potocari srebrenica funeral.it was a HUGE step

[brunette]

It's a terrible world that we live in, it's all material. We can only get rid of the root of the problem. The people who encourage Zionists in these wars should be abolished..No more blood for oil. No more wars for Zionists.

[Mary]

apparently 1,4 and 88 year olds are at military age

also,i know of a few aged ladies that were killed there...my family is from that area,you can not lie to me with Serbian propaganda

1) This is from the Wiki page. I assume that it's based on official (Western backed) information.

2) The culprits refused to acknowledge themselves and hid among the civilian population. Collective punishment was necessary.

You can't participate in military action and then call yourself a civilian and expect to get away.

[Kanuni]

You are free to say but I've lost all respect for you.

Their stubbornness is uncanny.

[Minesweeper]

You are free to say but I've lost all respect for you.

It's not just my opinion. The fact is that the official story is very one-sided and overblown. I mean, we recently found out that 500 killed and buried Bosnians from Srebrenica are actually living in Sarajevo!

[The Lawspeaker]

It's not just my opinion. The fact is that the official story is very one-sided and overblown. I mean, we recently found out that 500 killed Bosnians from Srebrenica are living in Sarajevo!
I wonder whether that is the same with "dead" Jews now living in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv or with "dead" Armenians that lived to a ripe old age in Soviet Armenia or France. Say it isn't so.

Surely there are some bureaucratic errors but I am sure there are also numerous cases of good old-fashioned fraud.

[Minesweeper]

I wonder whether that is the same with "dead" Jews now living in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv or with "dead" Armenians that lived to a ripe old age in Soviet Armenia or France. Say it isn't so.

It probably is, they either rose from the dead or their death is fabricated so that official number could be higher and the impression stronger.:rolleyes:

[Rron]

I wonder whether that is the same with "dead" Jews now living in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv. Say it isn't so.
Dude even after all your posts in all threads i cant understand your policy, your ideology, or your side ,you are such opposer with only purpose to oppose which seems that this turned in to your hobby.
Using cynicism in others tragedy is very low.

[Kanuni]

It's not just my opinion. The fact is that the official story is very one-sided and overblown. I mean, we recently found out that 500 killed and buried Bosnians from Srebrenica are actually living in Sarajevo!

Killing/raping and latter accusing someone for frauding the killed ones is the lowest human behaviour.What is obvious is obvious and no one can deny that.

[brunette]

The Germans killed Orthodox Jews not Zionists. Zionists talk about the Holocaust etc.

[The Journeyman]

I wonder whether that is the same with "dead" Jews now living in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv or with "dead" Armenians that lived to a ripe old age in Soviet Armenia or France. Say it isn't so.

When I went to the Museum of Tolerance for the second time a few years back, I read all of the statistics for the dead and missing. The death count was somewhere around 5 million. Then in all of the educational videos they run they keep rounding up to "over 6 million deaths." Anyways, not that it makes a huge difference, but I'm very much a stickler about facts and prefer to get my information from various uninvolved sources.

[Europa]

I see 'bosnian' have realised the cost of life....it's priceless.The decision whether someone to die(87,82 or 1 year old-I am sure you know what I am talking about) or not should not be in human's hands no matter Muslim,Christian,Budist...and so on,respectively should not be controlled by their faith.War is war,but actions such as genocides should not happen.Unfotunatelly there is no 'civilised' war...

[The Lawspeaker]

Dude even after all your posts in all threads i cant understand your policy, your ideology, or your side ,you are such opposer with only purpose to oppose which seems that this turned in to your hobby.
Using cynicism in others tragedy is very low.
Such stuff happens during bloody earthquakes either by bureaucratic errors (made in the confusion) or by ill will. I don't see why it wouldn't happen after a genocide.

[Mary]

I see 'bosnian' have realised the cost of life....it's priceless.The decision whether someone to die(87,82 or 1 year old) or not should not be in human's hands no matter Muslim,Christian,Budist...and so on,respectively should not be controlled by their faith.War is war,but actions such as genocides should not happen.

So if someone puts on a military uniform, kills civilians, and then takes the uniform off and claims to be innocent, we should let that person get away with it?

This is the reason why there are rules for these things. If you participate in military action you are required to wear a uniform or an armband as an identifying marker. This shows that you are fair game and separates you from people that are not.

If you break these rules, then the other side is no longer bound by the rules of targeting only uniformed personnel.

[The Lawspeaker]

So if someone puts on a military uniform, kills civilians, and then takes the uniform off and claims to be innocent, we should let that person get away with it?
They did the same thing during World War II. If someone had hid in a home in civilian clothes and the Allies found a SS-uniform when they were searching the home then it was a quick walk outside followed by a bang. I can't blame them. There is nothing as distasteful as a fugitive murderer and rapist in uniform stripping off his uniform and hiding behind civilians because he can't live up to the consequences.

[Hess]

Yes, the Evil, Bloodthirsty, Demonic Serbs :rolleyes2:


I would like to see some solid, unbiased numbers of how many people actually died, not NATO propaganda.

[Minesweeper]

Killing/raping and latter accusing someone for frauding the killed ones is the lowest human behaviour.What is obvious is obvious and no one can deny that.

I couldn't agree more. Isn't that strange that all Balkanic nations acted so civilized and humane and only the Serbs killed and rapped like animals .:rolleyes:

[The Lawspeaker]

I couldn't agree more. Isn't that strange that all Balkanic nations acted so civilized and humane and only the Serbs killed and rapped like animals .:rolleyes:
The war was an extremely nasty little affair and every guy was as good (or as plain evil) as the next. Uniform and religion meant nothing at all.

[Mosov]

There was an active anti-Serb propaganda in the West....

[Minesweeper]

The war was an extremely nasty little affair and every guy was as good (or as plain evil) as the next. Uniform and religion meant nothing at all.

Not to mention the war was a civil one and they tend to be bloody. I never said my people haven't committed atrocities against other but insisting only on Serbian war crimes and overblowing them can't make any good.

And the reason of that anti-Serbian campaign was obvious in 1999.

[Kanuni]

I couldn't agree more. Isn't that strange that all Balkanic nations acted so civilized and humane and only the Serbs killed and rapped like animals .:rolleyes:

Do you suffer from basic logical comprehensions?

There is a division between attacker and defender.

Serbs attacked Bosnians && Bosnians defended themselfs from Serbs.

Enough said.

[Rron]

There was an active anti-Serb propaganda in the West....
Are you denying the genocide ?

[Rron]

Do you suffer from basic logical comprehensions?

There is a division between attacker and defender.

Serbs attacked Bosnians && Bosnians defended themselfs from Serbs.

Enough said.
They think that they have rights to attack others but those others dont have rights to defend themselves , this is how their logic works.

[Hess]

Are you denying the genocide ?

No one is denying the genocide.

We're just saying that before jumping to any hasty conclusions, we should make sure that we have all the evidence and all the facts.

[Mary]

Do you suffer from basic logical comprehensions?

There is a division between attacker and defender.

Serbs attacked Bosnians && Bosnians defended themselfs from Serbs.

Enough said.


Military sources confirm that the 5,500 strong Muslim military force in Srebrenica made no effort to defend Srebrenica against 200 Serbian troops supported by five tanks. Tim Ripley, a military analyst for Janes’ Defense publications notes that Muslim forces fled from Srebrenica to the surrounding hills before Serbs captured the nearly empty town. He writes that Dutch troops “saw Bosnian troops escaping from Srebrenica move past their observation points carrying brand new anti-tank weapons, still in their plastic wrappings. This, and other similar reports, made many UN officers and international journalists suspicious.” Former Deputy Director of UNMO (UN Monitors) Carlos Martins Branco who debriefed the UN monitors who served in Srebrenica, writes: “Muslim forces did not even try to take advantage of their heavy artillery, under control of the United Nations (UN) forces at a time in which they had every reason to do so … Military resistance would jeopardize the image of ‘victim’, which had been so carefully constructed, and which the Muslims considered vital to maintain.” Lt Col British Lt.-Col. Jim Baxter, assistant to UN Commander Rupert Smith, told Tim Ripley “They [the Bosnian government] knew what was happening in Srebrenica. I am certain they decided it was worth the sacrifice.”

http://www.srebrenica-report.com/conclusions.htm

[Europa]

So if someone puts on a military uniform, kills civilians, and then takes the uniform off and claims to be innocent, we should let that person get away with it?

This is the reason why there are rules for these things. If you participate in military action you are required to wear a uniform or an armband as an identifying marker. This shows that you are fair game and separates you from people that are not.

If you break these rules, then the other side is no longer bound by the rules of targeting only uniformed personnel.

My point was little bit off topic,Mарче!Bosnian and maybe you too remember one other thread...?This war was not my war and the reasons for it were very complicate.I don't think I should stuff my nose in this painful subject for both nations.I do not...I repeat I do not troll threads!Savvy?

[Minesweeper]

Do you suffer from basic logical comprehensions?

There is a division between attacker and defender.

Serbs attacked Bosnians && Bosnians defended themselfs from Serbs.

Enough said.

Do I have to remind you that a Bosnian Ramiz Delalic a pre-war criminal fired the shot that triggered the war in Sarajevo and later in whole Bosnia.

Do not comment if you are not familiar with the history of the conflict.

[Thunor]

If Mladic would really be a hero as some Serbs claims so, then he would had deal with the real Turks, with us, not with the aged Bosnian peasants.
But you are not a Turk, you're a culturally confused Balkan dude whose ancestors were violated by Turks.

[The Lawspeaker]

But you are not a Turk, you're a culturally confused Balkan dude whose ancestors were violated by Turks.
Why don't you stay out of this, colonial ?

[Loki]

If you break these rules, then the other side is no longer bound by the rules of targeting only uniformed personnel.

I used to defend you among staff and your right to say what you want to say. I still do that but cannot respect you anymore either. :( And no - me losing respect for someone does not mean I justify killing or even harming them (like you do). It is just a basic emotion.

Also, you somehow think it is cool to kill all men over 14 years of age, whether they have been in military or not, crimes committed or not. Disgusting!

[Kanuni]

I used to defend you among staff and your right to say what you want to say. I still do that but cannot respect you anymore either. :( And no - me losing respect for someone does not mean I justify killing or even harming them (like you do). It is just a basic emotion.

Also, you somehow think it is cool to kill all men over 14 years of age, whether they have been in military or not, crimes committed or not. Disgusting!

What i wonder is that Serb support from other members doesn't come that they see Serbs as completely innocent but the reasons are this

They hate NATO/USA and because they helped Bosnians automatically means a support for Serbia, what have they done with civilians doesn't matter what matters is the political orientation.

[Onur]

More about the Greek orthodox mujaheddin involvement in Bosnian conflict;

Greek volunteers with Karadjic in Bosnia
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/greek_volunteers_with_karadjic_afte.jpg


Greek flag raised in Srebrenica
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/greek_volunteers_raising_flag_after.jpg
http://omadeon.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/ethelontes003.jpg?w=400&h=178


Greek paratroopers in Serbia, posing in front of one of ARKAN's security-cars (1995)
http://omadeon.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/arkan_greeks.jpg?w=435&h=363



Greek journalist and author, Mrs. Christiana Loupa, in an article of hers wrote the following (English translation):

"...There were statements by individuals (Greek volunteers in Bosnia) with their FULL names, in a known Greek magazine, such as:

-“We felt satisfied when we killed Muslims”,
-“when we killed Muslims there were moments when we celebrated it, in order to mitigate the intensity of battle” (i.e. as a form of… relaxation)
-“Muslims fought clumsily and we killed them by the tens, at a time”,
-“in thirteen minutes we’d kill roughly three hundred of them”.

Also they (the volunteers) admitted destroying a mosque in Srebrenica just "to pass their time" (!!!) and said they had a Serb commander there, who had spent many years in in the (French) Legion of Foreigners and is WANTED, till today, as a war-criminal, by the Hague International Court...

http://omadeon.wordpress.com/2009/07/31/srebrenitsa-trance/

Takis Michas "Unholy Alliance: Greece and Milosevic's Serbia in the Nineties"

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/158544183X/qid=1020761780/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_0_1/026-5717662-4778065

Reviewed by Panayote Dimitras(Greek Helsinki Monitor, Greece; and Central European University, Hungary)

Takis Michas' "Unholy Alliance: Greece and Milosevic's Serbia in the Nineties" is a "book combining personal observation, exhaustive investigation, humanitarian concerns and political analysis" (Samuel Huntington), "a courageous work" (Roy Gutman), a "devastating critique of Greece's reactive ethnonationalism" (Nicos Mouzelis) that "should be read not only by Balkan specialists but by all those interested in issues of nationalism and human rights" (Adamantia Pollis). This review fully subscribes to these back jacket comments.

Michas' book provides indeed compelling, irrefutable evidence that help explain the frustration of Zoran Mutic, an anti-nationalist Serb intellectual and translator of Greek literature in Serb-Croat. In September 1995, Mutic exclaimed: "When I hear so many Greeks -journalists, academics, politicians, intellectuals- expressing their admiration for Karadzic, what can I say? How can they consider as a hero a criminal, somebody who bombed hospitals, who placed snipers to kill kids on the streets?" Karadzic was honored in an open-air mass meeting in Piraeus, in the summer of 1993, attended or supported by all political parties, trade unions, media and the Orthodox Church: the handful of demonstrators who opposed the meeting were even arrested...

The convincing answers provided by Michas will make this book hard to swallow by the mainstream Greek political, media and intellectual establishment, notorious for its refusal to accept criticism and engage in self-criticism (as former socialist Minister of Justice Professor Michalis Stathopoulos has repeatedly said). It is expected that, if they decided not to ignore it, most of them will find harsher words for it than those of the former conservative foreign minister Michalis Papakonstantinou in the book's odd foreword: "Michas ... wrote the book ... more from the viewpoint of a human rights activist and critic trying to bring justice to the side he supports than that of an objective observer" (p. xi). Because indeed, in Greece, advocating for human rights, civil society, and, in the end, an open democratic society is perceived as a biased enterprise even by the most moderate members of the establishment, like M. Papakonstantinou. It is no accident that the book's author -like a few others with similar views- has more than once lost journalistic jobs for having expressed views that in most traditional democracies would not even be considered radical. Michas indeed starts the book with one such experience: losing his column in a financial daily, yet owned by a typical "globalization" entrepreneur, for having printed in April 1993 the bank account for support to the then hard-hit Sarajevo daily "Oslobodjenje" (pp. 3-4)...

Michas substantiates clearly at the outset the second part of the book's title: "what seemed incomprehensible during the Bosnia and Kosovo wars was not so much that Greece sided with Serbia, but that it sided with Serbia's darkest side" (p. 4). Indeed, the book provides a detailed documentation of how Greece sided with Milosevic and scorned the Serbian opposition even through 2000. It helps explain therefore how Greece also sided with Karadzic when the latter disagreed with Milosevic, and with the Pale Serbian-Bosnian self-proclaimed parliament when it rebuffed pleas by Greek Prime Minister Constantine Mitsotakis, Milosevic and Karadzic during the ill-fated effort to settle the Bosnian crisis early on in 1992. He is correct, moreover, to point out that this attitude was not inspired by politicians and/or media but was a bottom-up event. "Media people and politicians simply gave in to this overpowering popular demand" (p. 5). Michas correctly explains this attitude by the weakness of Greek civil society and the prevailing intolerance in the society at large, which is indeed a much worse situation than that of a "merely" intolerant state.

He attributes this characteristic to the prevalence to this very day of a militant and rather primitive form of ethnonationalism in Greece. In the end of the book, he develops this theoretical argument, and also explains the role of the Orthodox Church as a component of Greek nationalism; he looks for the roots of anti-Westernism and anti-Americanism of the left and of the right, a major element in Greek society's "irrational" attitude; and he recalls the consequent and continued persecution of dissident voices and refusal to recognize minorities, that go hand-in-hand with the prevailing intolerance. Many nationalism theorists may disagree with the author, or find some of his arguments rather weak: however, even here, it is the evidence he provides that is essential to the understanding of modern Greece, in this investigative piece that is not a rigorous academic study.

The book comes out at a time when the publication of the Dutch report on the events of Srebrenica has caused serious waves in the Netherlands and beyond. These waves have not reached Greece, though, a country that was rejoicing after the "fall" of Srebrenica in July 1995 at the hands of Bosnian Serbs and their allies, Greek paramilitaries. The latter in fact raised the Greek flag in Srebrenica after its capture: for those who may try to contest this fact, a photo is provided (p. 22), alongside another immortalizing the ensuing award of medals to the paramilitaries by Karadzic (p. 23). The other major indicted war crimes suspect, then General Ratko Mladic, was equally popular in Greece. So, when the Hague Tribunal indicted both of them, two million signatures were reportedly collected by the Greek-Serbian Friendship Association to oppose their prosecution. Another revealing part of the Dutch report on Srebrenica is the reference to the support of the Bosnian Serb army by the Greek (alongside Israeli and Ukrainian) secret services which provided them with arms and ammunition. Michas' book makes this look even more credible when it reveals that NATO military secrets on the August 1995 air strikes were passed on to Mladic on direct orders of then socialist Prime Minister Andreas Papandreou: the author's source is none other than Papandreou's personal intermediary with Karadzic and Milosevic, the -then and now-President of Greek-Serbian Friendship Association, who was carrying out the mission (pp. 38-39).

One would therefore not be surprised that Michas recalls also the refusal in Greece to condemn Serb atrocities in all recent wars and to accept that rapes were used as an ethnic cleansing weapon by Serbs; as well as the eagerness to refute any such allegations, and challenge the credibility of the Hague Tribunal or other international expert commissions, even by Greece's top human rights official. Besides, the book provides information on many business activities involving Greeks and Serbs to break the embargo against Serbia, acquire companies in Kosovo, launder Milosevic money, all that with full state support.

This phenomenon of "fundamental irrationalism," as Salonica-born leading French sociologist Edgar Morin called it, had its culmination in 1999 with the Kosovo bombings. A near unanimity of Greeks opposed them; almost all Greek media reported events along the official Serb government line; and anti-Americanism reached a new high during the same year's US President Bill Clinton state visit, which triggered unparalleled street demonstrations, quite unlike previous or later visits by a long list of communist or other authoritarian leaders.

In the end, Michas recalls how even the supposed pro-European Costas Simitis socialist government, and its foreign minister George Papandreou, tried to help Milosevic when, in October 2000, the Serbian masses and the international community demanded that he recognized his defeat by Vojislav Kostunica and stepped down: Milosevic's insistence that a run-off be held had one supporter, Greece -and personally even its foreign minister.

Another important contribution of the book is the account of the sustained efforts throughout the 1990s by Greek diplomacy to destabilize or at least to prevent the international recognition of the Republic of Macedonia at all, or, later on, under its constitutional name. Afraid -correctly- that such a development would only make inevitable the acknowledgment that a Macedonian minority exists in Greece -which it does, but that is Greek society's major taboo-, these efforts included even exchange of views with Milosevic to "swallow up" Macedonia, perhaps within the context of a Greek-Serb Confederation.

Michas concludes the investigative part of the book with a related sarcasm: Surely Milosevic feels sorry that he did not pursue this matter further. Had his plan for a Greek-Serb federation materialized, he might well have won the 2000 election. The majority of Greeks would have voted for him at any rate" (p. 106). How can one contest it, when his popularity rating in Greece, to the very end of his rule, was many times higher than that of all Western leaders and even than his popularity among Serbs? Or when a few hours after his extradition to the Hague, in June 2001, 79 of the some 100 Greek deputies present in Athens signed a petition opposing it and all other extraditions of Serbs to the Hague Tribunal?

http://www.alb-net.com/aki/bookreview/br02.htm


Greek state later sued the journalist who wrote this book about Greek involvement to Bosnia;


Greece: Suit Against Journalist For Srebrenica Claims to Go Forward
The Greek judiciary has decided to go ahead with a libel suit against Greek journalist Takis Michas on charges that he falsely claimed that paramilitaries from the country took part in the massacre in the Bosnian town of Srebrenica during the war there.

The trial against the journalist, who is best known as the author of the book “Unholy Alliance: Greece and Milosevic's Serbia”, has been set for September 29. In the book he points to what he calls the strong support of the Greek state for the former Serbian President Slobodan Milosevic.

Michas claims that some state actors are unhappy with the journalist's remarks, which differ from the official Greek depiction of events.

“Although nominally the judges act independently from the government one can be sure that the decision to bring the case to trial was taken with the full approval of the Greek”deep-state”," Michas says.

The libel suit was filed in July last year by Stavros Vitalis, a spokesman for the ultra nationalist party Panhellenic Macedonian Front. Vitalis is one of the leading Greek volunteers who have admitted taking part in the Bosnian war on the side of the Serbian forces.

Vitalis claims that he has been libeled because the journalist described the Greek volunteers as “paramilitaries who took part in the slaughter in Srebrenica” when according to him their cause in Bosnia was “to help a people [i.e. Serbs]”.

Vitalis says that the Greek volunteers were in good standing with the Serb army, fighting under the command of the then Bosnian Serb General Ratko Mladic, and they just happened to be in Srebrenica around the time when the notorious massacre happened.

Mladic is one of the two remaining fugitives wanted by the International Criminal Tribunal for former Yugoslavia, ICTY, on war crimes charges, including genocide in Srebrenica.

The notorious massacre, described as one of the most horrible atrocities since the Second World War, took place in July 1995 when the Bosnian Serb Army under Mladic’s command entered the town and killed some 8,000 Bosniak men and boys. An additional 30,000 Bosnian Muslims were expelled from the area.

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/greece-suit-against-journalist-for-srebrenica-claims-to-go-forward

[Mosov]

Are you denying the genocide ?

Well there were misdeeds done by both sides....Bosnians after all in addition to being supported by NATO were being supported by Islamic Jihadists, a united Muslim effort to defeat the "infidel Serbs". But the propaganda directed towards Serbs was just over the top and uncalled for. Not to mention the NATO bombing of Serbia. The West took the wrong side in this conflict.


It is in the context of this episode that Milovanovic discusses the events of 1995, about which he is unequivocal. “The massacre is a lie”, he says. “It is propaganda in order to make a bad picture of the Serbian people. The Muslims are lying, they are manipulating the numbers, they are exaggerating what happened. Far more Serbs died at Srebrenica than Muslims”.

Morever, he insists:

“the memorial at Potocari is a fake. They are bringing their dead from all over Bosnia to bury there. We have evidence that it is fake, we have documents: for instance, we found one man said to be missing who was in jail in Serbia all the time. And we are holding an investigation into this lie; all we can do is wait for the result. Meanwhile, my members are very bitter about all this manipulation, these lies about a massacre”.
Milovanovic calls over one of his veterans, Cvetin Petrovic. “The world outside refuses to see the truth about 1995”, he says. “Out in the world, everyone says that we, the Serbs, were killing people here. And we are powerless against this propaganda”.

[The Lawspeaker]

Makes me wonder why we help those Greeks now while we should let them rot after all this.

[The Lawspeaker]

. The West took the wrong side in this conflict.
That's right. We did. We should let them both do whatever the hell they liked in their own bloody country as it is not like we could stop it now. Now people that had nothing to do with it were killed, traumatised, maimed, taken hostage etc..

[Mosov]

That's right. We did. We should let them both do whatever the hell they liked in their own bloody country as it is not like we could stop it now. Now people that had nothing to do with it were killed, traumatised, maimed, taken hostage etc..

Well NATO has to get its nose in everything. And the Western Media has to also pick a side and create propaganda against the other.

[The Lawspeaker]

Well NATO has to get its nose in everything. And the Western Media has to also pick a side and create propaganda against the other.
Yap. And that's why foreign peacekeepers had to undergo stuff in a country they had jack shit to do with and they came back traumatised or in some cases maimed or dead.

[brunette]

More about the Greek orthodox mujaheddin involvement in Bosnian conflict;

Greek volunteers with Karadjic in Bosnia
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/greek_volunteers_with_karadjic_afte.jpg


Greek flag raised in Srebrenica
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/greek_volunteers_raising_flag_after.jpg
http://omadeon.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/ethelontes003.jpg?w=400&h=178


Greek paratroopers in Serbia, posing in front of one of ARKAN's security-cars (1995)
http://omadeon.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/arkan_greeks.jpg?w=435&h=363






Greek state later sued the journalist who wrote this book about Greek involvement to Bosnia;

They're Avgis Golden Dawn members.

[The Lawspeaker]

Avgis Golden Dawn ?

[Europa]

Makes me wonder why we help those Greeks now while we should let them rot after all this.

Makes me wonder,what the above has to do with the subject?I have noticed that very often you simply throw the spark for a additional conflict:coffee:

[brunette]

It's a Greek far right group. I've spoken to one or two of 'em in my time, a few on them are on SF. It's like me printing out a picture of the BNP and saying ''these people reflect the views of all the British''

The Serb Volunteer Guard (SDG) (Serbian: Српска добровољачка гарда, Srpska ... volunteers participated in the war because they were members of Hrisi Avgi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serb_Volunteer_Guard

[Thunor]

I honestly don't think you can call the Srebrenica massacre a "Bosnian genocide". In the entire Bosnian civil war, from beginning to end, the death ratio was about three to one. Just three Bosnian Muslims dead for every Serb. A tribal war of ethnic cleansing? Yeah. A full-blown genocide? Definitely not.

When I say "genocide", I generally think of Holocaust death ratios, which is about one million to none.


Makes me wonder,what the above has to do with the subject?:coffee:
Nothing at all. But then again, Civis is a well-known troll.

[The Lawspeaker]

It's a Greek far right group. I've spoken to one or two of 'em in my time, a few on them are on SF. It's like me printing out a picture of the BNP and saying ''these people reflect the views of all the British''

The Serb Volunteer Guard (SDG) (Serbian: Српска добровољачка гарда, Srpska ... volunteers participated in the war because they were members of Hrisi Avgi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serb_Volunteer_Guard


Makes me wonder,what the above has to do with the subject?:coffee:

^ That's why. Fuck 'em. As if the Greek government wasn't aware of this group's participation in Bosnian war crimes.

[brunette]

Hrisi Avgi=Avgis=Golden Dawn in English.

[Lena]

I find this thread in particularly despicable so I'll keep it as short as possible and all im-possible probs and undesirable reactions I'll put on the acct of the thread's initiator.

IF Carrington-Cutileiro peace plan for Bosnia was accepted and Alija Izetbegovic kept his sig on a document all sides approved, all of this wouldn't happen and Muslims from Bosnia would territorially have more than today without additional human loss. There's nothing romantic in a civil war, much less on this kind of infantile threads.

[brunette]

No that's silly, he said they're Greek volunteers they're not normal people off the street. They're members of Golden Dawn. The Turks have The Grey Wolves. All countries have 10-20 percent of people who are nationalist or far Right.

[The Lawspeaker]

No that's silly, he said they're Greek volunteers they're not normal people off the street. They're members of Golden Dawn. The Turks have The Grey Wolves. All countries have 10-20 percent of people who are nationalist or far Right.
A government is responsible for it's citizens and such a great number of extremist volunteers should have triggered a response from the Greek government.

But I think that the Greeks thought "you know what.. this way we don't have to step in directly.." and "if they die we are rid of them".

[Lena]

Do you suffer from basic logical comprehensions?

There is a division between attacker and defender.

Serbs attacked Bosnians && Bosnians defended themselfs from Serbs.

Enough said.

You're talking rubbish. It has been Bosnian Muslims who refused all kind of peace plans even BEFORE region went into the bloody civil war.

[Rron]

Well there were misdeeds done by both sides....Bosnians after all in addition to being supported by NATO were being supported by Islamic Jihadists, a united Muslim effort to defeat the "infidel Serbs". But the propaganda directed towards Serbs was just over the top and uncalled for. Not to mention the NATO bombing of Serbia. The West took the wrong side in this conflict.
Another crime against victims is equalizing them with the criminals, exactly your religious priests of serbian church of course blessed all those serb soldiers in srebrenica and supported them .
So dont sell this religious terms like infidel etc etc, there were genocide in process this is why Nato acted , you should remind genocide against your nation first ,and do not bring here quotes of Milovanovic and his brain masturbating ok.
....................................
-- Three years before the 1995 Srebrenica massacre, Serbs destroyed 296 Bosniak villages and killed at least 3,166 Bosniaks around Srebrenica. In 1993, the UN described the situation in Srebrenica as a "slow-motion process of genocide." In July 1995, Serbs forcibly expelled 25,000 Bosniaks, brutally raped many women and girls, and systematically killed 8,000+ men and boys (DNA confirmed).
http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/2008/08/concentration-camps-in-bosnia.html

[Europa]

^ That's why. Fuck 'em. As if the Greek government wasn't aware of this group's participation in Bosnian war crimes.

This sounds pathetic,lad.Should your peolpe living in present day pay for something some of their ancestors had done in the past.Please try to be a realist:coffee:

[Mary]

I used to defend you among staff and your right to say what you want to say. I still do that but cannot respect you anymore either. :( And no - me losing respect for someone does not mean I justify killing or even harming them (like you do). It is just a basic emotion.

Also, you somehow think it is cool to kill all men over 14 years of age, whether they have been in military or not, crimes committed or not. Disgusting!

I'm trying to stay objective and not put my personal opinions into this. Currently this thread is not very objective.

My personal opinion is this:

* The Serbs did the right thing. The Muslim men in Srebrenica chose to participate in military action and that makes them legitimate targets.

* Yes, that means some innocent men get killed. But that is the consequence of hiding behind your civilian population.

* The Bosnian Muslims need to move back to Turkey. They don't belong in the Balkans and their presence causes huge issues.

* I want to see the Balkans stable and quiet. This cannot happen unless the Balkan Muslims are dealt with

These are the facts:

* The Germans hate the Serbs. Because the Serbs ruined things for Germany in both WW1 and WW2. So Germany encouraged Bosnia to secede from Yugoslavia as a way to cause war in the Balkans.

* The Bosnian Muslims did not want to allow the Bosnian Serbs to secede from Bosnia the same way that they themselves had seceded from Yugoslavia. This is indefensible. Either everyone gets to secede or no one does. You can't have different rules for different people.

* The Americans hate the Serbs because the Serbs are allied with the Russians. So they see beating on the Serbs as a way to stick it to the Russians.

* The Americans tried to earn credibility in the Middle East by actively supporting Muslims against Orthodox Christians in the Balkans. That didn't turn out so well.

* The Balkan Muslims are trying to play the "Holocaust angle" to get the West to give them money. If you want to give them money, then by all means do so.

* The bad guys in the conflict can be ranked according to the following:

1) Muslims - Bad guys
2) Croats - Opportunists
3) Serbs - Good guys

[RoyBatty]

What's this propaganda, there was no genocide. The thread is a work of fiction. Why do we have to put up with this wog bs :)

[Romanion]

This thread is ironic. After 500 years of muslims repression and massacres to christians in the Balkans, when it is done to them it is terrible and the world needs to know just the one side of the story.

Bosnia war happened when Muslims tried to seed from Serbia, but with its large Serb population it wasn't going to be like Croatia. I'm not for what happened, but I think Bosnia is trying to use it as an attempt to keep the divided country together. Serbs didn't want to live in a muslim country. Who would want to live in a Muslim country?

This is like Israel still banging the holocost so it can do what it does to Palestine. The numbers of dead in Bosnia doesn't even reach Genocidal levels. If that was a genocide others would easily qualify.

Onur obviously has a chip on his shoulder about Greeks. Turks have done worse things than Greeks ever have and I think Onur is just plain scared of us.

[Ushtari]

The orthodox faith is the root of all evil in Balkan

[The Lawspeaker]

Nothing at all. But then again, Civis is a well-known troll.
Why don't you stay out of this, colonial. It's already difficult enough for the rest of Europe without you poking your immature nose in there.

[The Lawspeaker]

This sounds pathetic,lad.Should your peolpe living in present day pay for something some of their ancestors had done in the past.Please try to be a realist:coffee:
Guess what we have been doing for Indonesia ? And that happened 70 years ago. And when it comes to Srebrenica ? Not even 20 years ago.

[Europa]

The orthodox faith is the root of all evil in Balkan

This is bull shit and you know it..

[brunette]

The orthodox faith is the root of all evil in Balkan

Shouldn't you go back to Caucasian Arran the Azerbaijanis don't want you that's why...Why are Albanians in Kosovo to begin with?

[Ushtari]

This is bull shit and you know it..
It is true, and one can safely say that the orthodox faith is a disgrace to Christianity

[brunette]

What's this propaganda, there was no genocide. The thread is a work of fiction. Why do we have to put up with this wog bs :)

I just read your description ROTFLMFAO! :lightbul: :thumb001:

[Loki]

What i wonder is that Serb support from other members doesn't come that they see Serbs as completely innocent but the reasons are this

They hate NATO/USA and because they helped Bosnians automatically means a support for Serbia, what have they done with civilians doesn't matter what matters is the political orientation.

You are right. It is actually incomprehensible to me that there are people talking to us on this forum who justify such acts and deny basic human decency (i.e. the right to live) to anyone of a particular age, whether they are guilty or not.

[Hurrem sultana]

mary and brunette...stay out of serious threads

[RoyBatty]

mary and brunette...stay out of serious threads

Muslims, stay the fk out of Europe! :thumb001:
Go back to Turkey.

[StonyArabia]

mary and brunette...stay out of serious threads

brunette is a Lebanese so enough said they are not the brightest light bulbs not even in the Middle East.

[Hurrem sultana]

You are right. It is actually incomprehensible to me that there are people talking to us on this forum who justify such acts and deny basic human decency (i.e. the right to live) to anyone of a particular age, whether they are guilty or not.

and especially women who also clam to follow Christ!!!

[Hurrem sultana]

brunette is a Lebanese so enough said they are not the brightest light bulbs not even in the Middle East.

she is a troll nothing else

[Thunor]

Civis, go back to Indonesia.


What's this propaganda, there was no genocide. The thread is a work of fiction. Why do we have to put up with this wog bs
Because the Mohammedans are attention-seekers by nature. This thread was even made for that purpose. "Bosnian Genocide", it's enough to make anyone laugh.

[StonyArabia]

Muslims, stay the fk out of Europe! :thumb001:
Go back to Turkey.

No Europe is their homeland why they should go to a land that's not theirs. They are just as European as you are and have lived ever since in it.

[Rron]

and especially women who also clam to follow Christ!!!
And Armenians which were once the victims of genocide!!

[Lena]

mary and brunette...stay out of serious threads

This thread is anything but serious. One doesn't have to be the brightest bulb in the house to see it all coming and biting your rare end.

[RoyBatty]

Civis, go back to Indonesia.


Because the Mohammedans are attention-seekers by nature. This thread was even made for that purpose. "Bosnian Genocide", it's enough to make anyone laugh.

What the man said o/

VIVA SERBIA! :thumb001:

[The Lawspeaker]

Civis, go back to Indonesia.

Why don't you, finish primary school, grow a beard first and shave yourself for the first time ? And get laid for the first time ?

Little teenager. Stay out of European debates that you don't know anything about. Fuck off, kiddo.

[brunette]

brunette is a Lebanese so enough said they are not the brightest light bulbs not even in the Middle East.

And you're a camel jockey from Saudi Arabia, i'm not racially Lebanese you idiot my racial ancestry from my Mothers side is from the Baltics hence why I know about the Turks. If anyones Lebanese it's you. :thumbs up

[The Lawspeaker]

And Armenians which were once the victims of genocide!!
Or so they say.

[Viljuska]

There was no Genocide in Srebrencia.

Not my words..
several scholars worldwide says so.

Also, I don't wish to repeat myself about things.

post 1 (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=751607&postcount=78)
post 2 (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=751693&postcount=91)
post 3 (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=752674&postcount=176)
post 4 (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=752729&postcount=182)

[Kanuni]

Well NATO has to get its nose in everything. And the Western Media has to also pick a side and create propaganda against the other.

You=>Russias supporter

Russia==hates NATO

what to expect from you?:whistle:

[brunette]

And Armenians which were once the victims of genocide!!

Because of Albanian scum go back to Azerbaijan!

[The Lawspeaker]

No Europe is their homeland why they should go to a land that's not theirs. They are just as European as you are and have lived ever since in it.
Those Bosniaks, for starters, are more European then Thunor or Roy. :thumb001:

[Ushtari]

Serbian clerics openly supported genocide against non-Serbs and they even blessed Serbian soldiers just before they went off and executed 8000 Bosniaks in Srebenica. The Orthodox faith is the root of all evil in the Balkans. The Serbian Orthodox Church is radical and inciting Serbs to commit crimes against non-Serbs, especially against Albanians and Bosniaks. Even during World War II the church supported the Nazis, openly, and priests stirred and whipped up the mood between Serbs and Jews. Serbian bearded Santas are notorious for this in the Balkans.

[Europa]

Or so they say.

Oh please!Of course there was,but the thread is about Bosnians,not Armenians:coffee:

[brunette]

mary and brunette...stay out of serious threads

Why is it serious if only your opinion counts, noone said that the Bosnians weren't genocided-the question is why..Which still hasn't been answered by the Bosnian users.

[Hurrem sultana]

And Armenians which were once the victims of genocide!!

yeah exactly,one would think at least those who have gone through it would know better.But i doubt these Armenians have lost anyone,the ones who have(and i know one of them) are a totally different story

[StonyArabia]

And you're a camel jockey from Saudi Arabia, i'm not racially Lebanese you idiot my racial ancestry from my Mothers side is from the Baltics hence why I know about the Turks. If anyones Lebanese it's you. :thumbs up

Well at least I know one thing, I don't utter none sense like you have. You look anything but Blatic. You are Lebanese but ashamed of it. On the other hand I am proud to be a Camel Jockey my Levantine princess, I see nothing wrong with it when it accounts for 50% of my lineage. I am half Adyghe half Syrian Desert Arabian. I don't care if I am Lebanese or not, but you have serious self-hate issues.

[Rron]

Or so they say.
Genocide against Armenians its hostorical fact , only idiots deny it .





Ps: Sorry of topic

[brunette]

Serbian clerics openly supported genocide against non-Serbs and they even blessed Serbian soldiers just before they went off and executed 8000 Bosniaks in Srebenica. The Orthodox faith is the root of all evil in the Balkans. The Serbian Orthodox Church is radical and inciting Serbs to commit crimes against non-Serbs, especially against Albanians and Bosniaks. Even during World War II the church supported the Nazis, openly, and priests stirred and whipped up the mood between Serbs and Jews. Serbian bearded Santas are notorious for this in the Balkans.

Yes why did they do that? Why did the Serbians and Greeks ''openly support the genocide'' Albanians were genocided? F no they were not. You support Israel you'll get everything that you deserve.

[Hurrem sultana]

Why is it serious if only your opinion counts, noone said that the Bosnians weren't genocided-the question is why..Which still hasn't been answered by the Bosnian users.

Ok then


open a thread on that question,i don't really care why all i care about is there was a genocide and innocent people got killed

[The Lawspeaker]

Oh please!Of course there was,but the thread is about Bosnians,not Armenians:coffee:


Genocide against Armenians its hostorical fact , only idiots deny it .





Ps: Sorry of topic

This article by Dr. McCarthy (http://homepages.cae.wisc.edu/%7Edwilson/Armenia/justin.html) suggests otherwise. But Armenians are not the important factor here as this is about Bosnia. And this forum is about Europe.

Hence whether the Armenian genocide did or did not take place is irrelevant.

[Europa]

[QUOTE=Ushtari;796161] The Serbian Orthodox Church is radical and inciting Serbs to commit crimes against non-Serbs

Once again you are talking nonsense,mate.Unsupported thesis,just one little lad's opinion.

[Kanuni]

yeah exactly,one would think at least those who have gone through it would know better.But i doubt these Armenians have lost anyone,the ones who have(and i know one of them) are a totally different story

Because he is a good example of what i said what matters are political orientations and personal interests.When it comes to Armenians Mosov will defend his nation but when it comes to Bosnians he will support Serbia because it fits his personal interests ofcourse i am speaking only about him personally not generalizing to all Armenians.

[brunette]

Well at least I know one thing, I don't utter none sense like you have. You look anything but Blatic. You are Lebanese but ashamed of it. On the other hand I am proud to be a Camel Jockey my Levantine princess, I see nothing wrong with it when it accounts for 50% of my lineage. I am half Adyghe half Syrian Desert Arabian. I don't care if I am Lebanese or not, but you have serious self-hate issues.

You look anything from Baltic, no I look Alpine Med and Pontid. You are Lebanese and ashamed of it, no because I belong to another ethnic group who live in Lebanon. You're ashamed of being a Nigger. So you call yourself an Arab to make up for it.

Go and join the retards on anthroscape, Nigger. They were good at calling me a liar there also.

[The Journeyman]

The Orthodox faith is the root of all evil in the Balkans.

The Orthodox nations liberated your country stupid. :loco:

[Hurrem sultana]

[QUOTE=Ushtari;796161] The Serbian Orthodox Church is radical and inciting Serbs to commit crimes against non-Serbs

Once again you are talking nonsense,mate.Unsupported thesis,just one little lad's opinion.

but he is right,the ones that were wrong in the first place are the church officials...hey made the Serbs think Europe will support them,they made the Serbian people think Europeans live in the year 1455

when they late saw how the whole world is against their politics some of them started crying how the whole world is against serbia:coffee:

[The Lawspeaker]

.
Putting up your picture in the public part of a forum is not a bright idea. May I suggest that you remove it in order to protect your identity ? :)

[StonyArabia]

You look anything from Baltic, no I look Alpine Med and Pontid. You are Lebanese and ashamed of it, no because I belong to another ethnic group who live in Lebanon. You're ashamed of being a Nigger. So you call yourself an Arab to make up for it.

Go and join the retards on anthroscape, Nigger. They were good at calling me a liar there also.

LOL this all I have to say I am not from the hellhole called Lebanon

[brunette]

That's my pic yet again even though it's irrelevant.

Armenians were genocided by the Turks and apart of Eastern Anatolia was stolen from the Armenians. The Armenians then genocided the Azerbaijanis.

[Ushtari]

Once again you are talking nonsense,mate.Unsupported thesis,just one little lad's opinion.
Not really, it is commonly known that Slavic orthodox terrorism is the root of all evil in the Balkans


"On June 2, 2005 video evidence emerged.

It was introduced at the Miloševic trial to testify the involvement of members of police units from Serbia in Srebrenica Massacre

The video footage starts about 2hr 35 min. into the proceedings.



Right: - Screenshot from recently released video footage showing a Serb Orthodox priest blessing the paramilitary soldiers on June 25, 1995 just a few days before the soldiers were to be transfered to the Srebrenica area"
http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/srebrenica_massacre.html


Some 94 percent of Serbia’s 16,000 Jews were exterminated, with the considerable cooperation of the Serbian government, the Serbian Orthodox Church, the Serbian State Guard, the Serbian police and the Serbian public. Some 60,000 Bosnian Muslims were killed by Serbian Chetniks


Source (http://www.scribd.com/doc/36949049/Notice-to-Israel-Serbian-Nazis-Killed-Jews-in-World-War-II)

The Serbian Church, "serbian-state guard, Serb police and Serb population helped the Nazis to kill over 90% of the country's Jews, while in the same time Bosnian civilians were killed whenever the chance arose.

[brunette]

Putting up your picture in the public part of a forum is not a bright idea. May I suggest that you remove it in order to protect your identity ? :)

Only if it proves Sand Negroes wrong it isn't. ;)

[Mary]

Serbian clerics openly supported genocide against non-Serbs and they even blessed Serbian soldiers just before they went off and executed 8000 Bosniaks in Srebenica. The Orthodox faith is the root of all evil in the Balkans. The Serbian Orthodox Church is radical and inciting Serbs to commit crimes against non-Serbs, especially against Albanians and Bosniaks. Even during World War II the church supported the Nazis, openly, and priests stirred and whipped up the mood between Serbs and Jews. Serbian bearded Santas are notorious for this in the Balkans.

Here is the basic problem:

* The Serbs are militarily superior to everyone else in the Balkans.
* The Muslims can't help (Islam's bloody borders theory) picking fights with them.
* As a consequence we will have a vicious circle:

1) Muslims harass Serbs
2) Serbs stomp the Muslims
3) Muslims whine
4) Rinse and repeat.

This will go on until someone starts thinking about a Final Solution.

[Sorab]

Serbian clerics openly supported genocide against non-Serbs and they even blessed Serbian soldiers just before they went off and executed 8000 Bosniaks in Srebenica. The Orthodox faith is the root of all evil in the Balkans. The Serbian Orthodox Church is radical and inciting Serbs to commit crimes against non-Serbs, especially against Albanians and Bosniaks. Even during World War II the church supported the Nazis, openly, and priests stirred and whipped up the mood between Serbs and Jews. Serbian bearded Santas are notorious for this in the Balkans.
Really ?

The 21st Division of the SS Skanderbeg was created following the Axis invasion of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia in 1941. Throughout 1942 and 1943 both the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS sought to utilise local manpower to maintain law and order, and fight off Yugoslav Partisan and communist Albanian Resistance activity in the region. For their part Albanian leaders hoped to form an "army, which will be able to safeguard the borders of Kosovo and Metohija and liberate the surrounding regions"[1]
In 1943 a number of Albanians from Kosovo and the Sandžak region were recruited into the 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar (1st Croatian). They were used to form Battalion I/2 (later I/28) and received first rate training in southern France and Neuhammer, Germany. This was perhaps the best trained and equipped Nazi Albanian military formation during the war and was transferred directly from combat in Bosnia to Kosovo via rail on 17 April 1944 to form part of the newly created SS Skanderbeg division. The head of Waffen SS recruitment, SS-Obergruppenführer Gottlob Berger reported to Himmler that the Albanians "...were quite sad about leaving."[2]
In February 1944 the decision was taken, following the modest success of SS Handschar in Bosnia, to raise a parallel unit inside Albania. According to Bernd Fischer, the Division included 1500 Pows, "natives of Kosovo who had served in the Yugoslav army, plus remnants of the failed Albanian army and gendarmerie, volunteers from both old and new Albania."[3] Xhafer Deva, an Albanian from Kosovo and periodically the Interior Minister under the Nazi puppet regime, helped with recruitment. The Division was called SS Skënderbeu in Albanian.
Ultimately the names of 11,398 possible recruits were submitted to Berlin. Of these, 9,275 were deemed suitable for drafting, and about 6,000 were actually inducted into the Waffen SS. The 21st Waffen SS Mountain Division was the only fully ethnic Albanian division to be recruited by the Germans during the Second World War. It was established originally to combat partisan activity with the promise that the territories with a majority Albanian population were to become an independent and unified state to include Albania, Kosovo and Western Macedonia, or what is sometimes called Greater Albania (or Ethnic Albania).
The Division was placed under the command of SS-Standartenführer August Schmidthuber, later promoted to SS-Oberführer. It fought against the Communist partisan forces of Enver Hoxha who were on the increase and consolidating their actions, both in Albania and Yugoslavia as the Second World War was drawing to an end. The Division was very poorly led with a serious dearth of instructors, Albanian officers or NCOs.
The Division was operational for only a few months (February 1944 – November 1944), with a strength of about 6,000 - 6,500 rather than the normal strength of a division (10,000-20,000). Many recruits deserted with their new weapons and boots, and by October 1944 their number had dwindled to around 3500. It appears they often refused to fight or to take orders, and it never became a significant force.[4]
"The Germans were forced to disarm battalions at Pec and Prizren, arresting the Albanian officers and sending them to the camp at Prishtina."[5]
SS-Brigadeführer August Schmidthuber, one of the commanders of the 21st SS Mountain Division "Skanderbeg," was captured in 1945 and turned over to Yugoslav authorities. He was put on trial in February 1947 by a Yugoslav military tribunal at Belgrade, on charges of participating in massacres, deportations and atrocities against civilians. The tribunal sentenced him to death by hanging. He was executed on 27 February 1947.[6]


An illustration of the soldier of the Skanderbeg division, showing the characteristic Albanian cap which was a distinctive part of the uniform
[edit]Insignia

The division arm patch consisted of a black double-headed eagle on a red background. The recruits wore the white traditional Albanian highlander cap (pileus), and later the SS issued grey headgear in the same style, with the Totenkopf sewn on the front. And a collar tab with the Skanderbeg helmet[citation needed]
[edit]Participation

Led by German officers, in May 1944, some troops from the division were stationed in the Đakovica area to guard the mines there. In the middle of the month, under German direction, they participated in rounding up 281 Jews who were subsequently deported north to certain death.[7] Lasting just a few months, this Waffen-SS division was "militarily useless" and declared a "fiasco".[8] Insubordination, poor discipline, looting and violence against unarmed civilians (especially Serbs but also Albanians deemed Communistic) were constant problems. Members of the division were used, either as attachments to regular Wehrmacht units conducting sweeps for partisans, or to terrorize the local non-Albanian population in the areas of Greater Albania which are not part of Albania. The Division participated in the Wehrmacht Operation "Fuchsjagd", known to the Communists as the "Battle of Debar", over 18 to 27 August 1944 (during the first week of Ramadan). The Division fought alongside Albanian government soldiers, tribal bands from the Roman Catholic Mirdita clan, an Albanian nationalist četa from Debar itself and approximately 800 men from Colonel Abaz Kupi's Zogist-Legality (Royalist) faction. The town of Debar was not captured and the campaign against Communist partisans in central Albania was a failure, only leading to further desertions. The only other action partaken was assisting the orderly Wehrmacht withdrawal over October to November 1944. Over 700 men of this SS Division, along with approximately 5000 local Kosovo-Albanians recruited by Xhafer Deva, aided the Germans evacuating through Kosovo and resisted incursions by both Communist partisans and Bulgarian incursions.
[edit]Commanders

SS-Brigadeführer Josef Fitzthum (April 1944 - May 1944)
SS-Oberführer August Schmidthuber (May 1944 - January 1945)[9]
[edit]Order of battle

Waffen Gebirgsjäger Regiment of SS 50
Waffen Gebirgsjäger Regiment of SS 51
Waffen Gebirgs Artillery Regiment 21
SS Reconnaissance Battalion 21
SS Panzerjäger Battalion 21
SS Gebirgs Pionier Battalion 21
SS Versorgungs Battalion 21
SS Signals Battalion 21
SS Medical Battalion 21 [10]
[edit]Further reading

List of German divisions in WWII
Waffen-SS
Hermann Neubacher, Sonderauftrag Sudost (1953)
Haroey Samer, Rescue In Albania: One Hundred Percent Of Jews In Albania Rescued From Holocaust, Brunswick Press, California (1997). Available at: http://www.aacl.com/index11.html
Noel Malcolm, Kosovo: A Short History, New York University Press; New Update edition (November 2000).
Chris Bishop, Hitler's Foreign SS Divisions (2005)
Bernd Jürgen Fischer, Albania at War, 1939-1945, (Purdue University Press, West Lafayette 1999), ISBN 1-55753-141-2.
George Lepre, Himmler's Bosnian Division: The Waffen-SS Handschar Division 1943-1945, (Atlgen, PA: Schiffer Military History, 1997) ISBN 0-7643-0134-9, page. 165.
Laurent Latruwe & Gordana Kostic, La Division Skanderbeg: Histoire des Waffen-SS albanais des origines idéologiques aux débuts de la Guerre froide, (Godefroy de Bouillon, 2004) ISBN 2-84191-172-1
[edit]References

^ Ailsby, Christopher J. 2004. "Hitler's Renegades: Foreign Nationals in the Service of the Third Reich," Brassey's Press. ISBN 1-57488-838-2. P. 169
^ Lepre, George, Himmler's Bosnian Division: The Waffen-SS Handschar Division 1943-1945, (Atlgen, PA: Schiffer Military History, 1997) ISBN 0-7643-0134-9, page. 165.
^ Bernd Jurgen Fischer "Albania at War", page.185
^ Elsie Robert, historical dictionary of Kosovo
^ Bernd Fisher, "Albania at War", page. 185
^ History of the United Nations War Crimes Commission and the Development of the Laws of War p. 528, United Nations War Crimes Commission, London: HMSO, 1948)
^ Elsie, Robert. 2004. "Historical Dictionary of Kosovo," Scarecrow Press. ISBN 0-8108-5309-4. P. 169
^ Ailsby, Christopher J, Hitler's Renegades: Foreign Nationals in the Service of the Third Reich, 2004. P. 169".
^ Bishop, Chris. The Essential Vehicle Identification Guide - Waffen-SS Divisions 1939-1945, Amber Books Ltd. 2007, p 164.
^ Wendel, Marcus. "21. SS Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS Skanderbeg (albanische Nr. 1)". Axis History. Retrieved 2009-03-15.
Partisans: War in the Balkans 1941 - 1945
Historical Dictionary of Kosovo By Robert Elsie
source wikipedia
Balli Kombëtar (English: National Front) was an Albanian nationalist, anti-communist and anti-monarchy organization established in October 1939.[1][2] It was led by Ali Këlcyra and Mit’hat Frashëri.[3] The motto of the Balli Kombetar was: "Shqipëria Shqiptarëve, Vdekje Tradhëtarëvet" (Albania for the Albanians, Death to the Traitors).[4]
Contents [hide]
1 History
1.1 Albania and Chameria
1.2 Kosovo and Macedonia
1.3 Montenegro and Sandzak
2 Ideology
3 The Ten-Point Program
4 Legacy
5 See also
6 References
[edit]History



The Italian Protectorate of Albania established by Italy in August 1941.
With Italy on the wake of defeat in 1942, the Albanian National Liberation Movement (LNC) and the Balli Kombëtar organised a meeting in the village of Mukje (Agreement at Mukje). Balli Kombëtar entered into a fragile alliance with the communist-led LNC, and acted as a resistance group against Italy.[5] Following the Mukje Agreement, the vague mutual tolerance that had existed between the Ballists and Communists quickly evaporated. The refusal of the Communists to argue for the return of Kosovo to Albania made it all but impossible for the Ballist to cooperate with the LNC in the resistance movement. The Allies too could not guarantee that Kosovo would be a part of Albania,[6] because they stood for restoration of occupied nations under their borders from after World War I.
Despite the Ballist's hatred of communism, they feared that the Allied victory in the war might well result in communist control of Albania [7]. Their lukewarm attitude towards the British was also fostered by their desire to preserve the accomplished fact of ethnic frontiers of the Albanian State restored by the Italians in 1941, for they bitterly opposed and dreaded the loss of Kosovo and Diber[disambiguation needed ] to Yugoslavia once again, and feared that the Allies in their support of the Greeks might prevent them from claiming Chameria and deprive them of their southern provinces of Korce and Gjirokaster, the heartland of their liberation movement [8]. They regarded the Yugoslavs and the Greeks as their real enemies [9].
The Mukje Agreement bought immediately a hostile reaction from the Yugoslav representative in Albania, Svetozar Vukmanovic-Tempo. He denounced the agreement and put pressure on the LNC to repute it at once[10]. Milovan Đilas described the Balli Kombëtar as Albanian Fascists[11].
The Balli Kombëtar, which had fought against Fascist Italy, were threatened by the superior forces of the LNC and the Yugoslav Partisans, who were backed by the Allies.[12] In the autumn of 1943, Germany occupied all of Albania after Italy was defeated. Fearing reprisals from the larger forces, the Balli Kombëtar made a deal with the Germans and formed a ‘neutral government’ in Tirana which continued its war with the LNC and Yugoslav Partisans.[13][14][15][16]
[edit]Albania and Chameria
Safet Butka, a hardline Albanian nationalist, tried at various times to cooperate with the Communist-dominated Liberation Front. In February 1943 he organized a meeting with Communist representatives and an agreement for cooperation was reached in March 1943. He also made another local agreement in August 1943 and was one of the initiators and supporters of the Mukje Agreement[17]. After the denouncement of the Mukje Agreement by Albanian communists, He feared a civil war between Albanians and when asked on the matter, always stated that "The only Albanian that I will kill will be myself"[17]. On his way home he was informed of the first clashes between Albanian partisans and Balli Kombëtar. Upon hearing such news, he killed himself on 19 September 1943 in the village of Melçan, faithful to his word[17]. ut In the south of Albania, the rivalry between the Communists and the republican Balli Kombetar heated up. The Communist, almost immediately repudiated the Mukaj agreement, and fearing the British might open a second front in the Balkans and lend their support to the Ballists, the communists issued orders to eliminate the Balli Kombetar wherever they were found[18]. These factors contributed to the Balli Kombetar forming a strong hatred for the communists.
After forming the Neutral government, the Ballists pressed hard against the Communist[19]. The Ballists destroyed a fairly large Communist partisan group south-west of Tirana[20]. The partisan force of about 2000 strong had been annihilated. With other major partisan forces losing, the Albanian Communist tactically retreated, establishing Guerrilla warfare to fight the Balli Kombetar. The Ballist, along with the Germans occupied the region of Chameria (Cham Albanian collaboration with the Axis).[citation needed] The Albanian control of Chameria was significant to the Balli Kombetar as Mit’hat Frashëri was from Ioannina.[citation needed]
With the Grand Alliance established, the Germans began losing the war. This also affected the situation in Albania as the Germans could not supply the Ballists. With the current situation favouring the communists, the partisans began a full scale attack on the Balli Kombetar. British Liaison officers in Albania noted that the Communists were using the arms they received to fight fellow Albanians far more than to harass the Germans[21]. The west noted that the Communists could not have won without the supplies and armaments from the British, America and Yugoslavia[22], and that the LNC were not afraid of murdering their country men[23].
With Enver Hoxha's election as Prime Minister and the victory of the Communist Party of Albania after the war, most Balli Kombëtar leaders were either imprisoned, executed, or tortured due to their role in World War II.
[edit]Kosovo and Macedonia
In Kosovo, the Balli Kombëtar government formed an SS unit. The Germans recruited thousands of Albanians in the SS Skanderbeg division, this was led by the interior of the ministry, Xhafer Deva.[5][24][25] The Balli Kombetar also formed the Second League of Prizren to help retain its borders.
Large number of Serbs were killed across Kosovo or deported to camps in Albania starting from 1942.[26] Local Albanian fighters (Ballists) saw an opportunity to take their revenge upon their Serbian neighbours for the suffering they had endured over previous two decades (Massacres of Albanians in the Balkan Wars).[26] The Ballists attacked the Serb colonists, burning perhaps as many as 30,000 houses belonging to Serb and Montenegrin settlers.[26]
Large number of Serbs and Macedonians were also killed across western Macedonia[27]. The Balli Kombëtar government also formed the SS Skanderbeg division in the western Macedonia[28]. The Ballists forces and the SS Skanderbeg division fought the Yugoslav partisan forces with ease at the beginning of the war. The main centres of the Balli Kombëtar in these regions were Mitrovica, Drenica and Tetovo[29]. It was noted that the Balli Kombetar in these regions were more aggressive than the Ballists of Albania[30].
With the Germans driven out by Josip Broz Tito's partisans, and the Albanian communists claiming victory in Albania, Tito ordered the collection of weapons in Kosovo and the arrest of prominent Albanians[31].. The order was not well received and, combined with the passions felt about Kosovo, inflamed an insurrection. On 2 December, 1944, Ballists from the Drenica region attacked the Trepca mining complex and other targets[32]. Numbering at most 2,000 men, these anti-communists held off a partisan force of about 30,000 troops for two months. Similarly in Kicevo, Gostivar and Tetovo, the remaining Ballists tried to remain in control of the region after the Yugoslav partisans announced victory[33]. After the war, most Balli Kombëtar leaders were either imprisoned, executed, or tortured due to their role in World War II. Although the insurection was crushed, it was not until 1947 that Kosovo was fully reintegrated into Yugoslavia[34]. On June 19, 2005, in the village Lupçi i epërm near Podujevo in northeastern Kosovo was discovered a mass grave with remains of sixteen albanian anti-communists, killed during the battle with Yugoslav Army.
[edit]Montenegro and Sandzak
Parts of Montenegro and the Sandzak regions were incorporated into Albania in 1941[35] The cities included Bijelo Polje, Plevlja, Tutin[36], Plav, Gusinje, Rozaje and Ulqin. A large number of the Bošnjak that lived in these regions sided with the Albanians. Dzemail Konicanin, a Bošnjak from Tutin, formed a Sandzak battalion with backing from the interior of the ministry, Xhafer Deva. Konicanin, although a Bošnjak, identified with the Albanians and was an officer under the Albanian state[37].
Akif Blyta, former mayor of Novi Pazar and member of Nexhip Draga's party[38], Dzemail Konicanin and Ballist forces under Shaban Polluzha successfully repelled Chetnik forces back from Novi Pazar and crushed their stronghold in Banja[39].
However, the true threat to the Balli Kombëtar was the Yugoslav partisans, who captured the region in 1945. After the war, most Balli Kombëtar leaders were either imprisoned, executed, or tortured.
[edit]Ideology

Mit'hat Frasheri believed that the Albanian provinces under the Ottoman Empire were unfairly partitioned during World War I among Yugoslavia and Greece.[40] After world war two, Mit'hat Frasheri began advocating for a Greater Albania. When Mit'hat Frasheri formed the Balli Kombetar, it was based on his nationalist ideas and the old ideologies of Abdyl Frasheri, Isa Boletini and Avni Rustemi. The works of Franz Nopcsa, Johann Georg von Hahn and Milan Šufflay, helped strengthened the nationalists cause[41][42]. The Nazi and Balli Kombëtar believed that Albanians were "Aryans of Illyrian heritage"[43]. This strengthened their alliance[44].
[edit]The Ten-Point Program

The original objectives of Balli Kombëtar were set out in 1942 in the following ten-point program, also known as the “Decalogue”[45]
“ The Decalogue states:[46]
We are fighting for the red and black flag, for the defence of the rights of the Albanian people
We are fighting for a democratic, ethnic and free Albania with a modern society
We are fighting for an Albania in which freedom of speech and thought will prevail
We are fighting for an Albania with a proper economic and social balance so that there will be no more exploiters and exploited, that is to say, so that no one will live at the expense of his fellow man, so that there will be no farmers without enough land to live on, so that there will be no blue and white collar workers without housing and security, i.e. we are fighting for a stable Albania with a thoroughly reformed economic system in accordance with the wishes and needs of the Albanian people
We are fighting for an Albania in which the suppressed talents of all strata of the population will come to light, be supported and flourish with the help of Albanian schooling
We are fighting for an Albania in which all positive contributions will be properly appreciated, independent of age, region or faith
We are fighting to create an Albania run by people who have not been compromised, by Albanians who have done their utmost at every time and under all conditions for the salvation and welfare of their country, by competent and honest working men
We are fighting for an Albania that, in a strict and exemplary manner, will punish all anti-patriots, traitors, lackeys, troublemakers, speculators and spies; for an Albania in which there will be no place for hypocrites, sycophants, feudal oppressors and anyone who hinders the development and progress of our renascent country
We are fighting to harmonize and unite the creative energies of the nation, to create an intellectual and spiritual union of all Albanians
We are fighting to mobilize all the vital forces of the nation against the occupiers in order to realize the ideals of Balli Kombëtar
”

[edit]Legacy



Mit’hat Frashëri, leader of the Balli Kombëtar

This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (November 2010)
After World War II ended, The Balli Kombëtar were defeated by the Yugoslav and Albanian communists. Balli Kombëtar fighters escaped the balkans and fled to countries such as Austria, the United States, Australia, Switzerland and South America. The Ballists (Balli Kombëtar) who could not escape the communist regime were executed. The leaders of the movement included Ali Këlcyra, Mit’hat Frashëri, Abas Ermenji, Vasil Andoni, Hasan Dosti, Skënder Muço, Thoma Orollogaj, Hysni Lepenica and Safet Butka. In Macedonia the most notable leader of the movement was Xhem Hasa of Gostivar, where a statue dedicated to him was placed after the overthrow of the Communist regime.
During the Breakup of Yugoslavia, many of the former Balli Kombëtar organisations that were set up in the United States, Australia and South America gave financial donations to help start up and aid the Kosovo Liberation Army to help liberate Kosovo from the oppression of the Yugoslav army. A lot of the Albanian communities around the world were formed due to the help of the former members of the Balli Kombëtar.[citation needed]
Tetovo was once the largest Balli Kombetar base in Macedonia[47] and still have strong ties with the name. The Tetovo based football club, KF Shkendija, have a large support firm called the Ballistët. They are often in the Macedonian media for their use of hardline nationalistic rhetorics in football matches[48].
[edit]See also

21st Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Skanderbeg (1st Albanian)
Këshilla
Greater Albania
History of Albania
[edit]References

^ The Albanians: an ethnic history from prehistoric times to the present by Edwin E. Jacques
^ http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts20_1/AH1942.html
^ Jelavich, Barbara (1983). History of the Balkans, Vol. 2: Twentieth Century. Cambridge University Press. p. 274. ISBN 0521274591.
^ Albania in Occupation and War: From Fascism to Communism 1940-1945 by Owen Pearson [1]
^ a b Fischer, Bernd Jürgen (1999). Albania at War, 1939-1945. Purdue University Press. pp. 132–133. ISBN 1557531412.
^ Between Serb and Albanian: a history of Kosovo by Miranda Vickers
^ Owen Pearson. "Albania in Occupation and War: From Fascism to Communism 1940-1945". Retrieved 4 August 2011.
^ Owen Pearson. "Albania in Occupation and War: From Fascism to Communism 1940-1945". Retrieved 4 August 2011.
^ Owen Pearson. "Albania in Occupation and War: From Fascism to Communism 1940-1945". Retrieved 4 August 2011.
^ Albania in the twentieth century: a history, Volume 2 by Owen Pearson [2]
^ Albania at war, 1939-1945 [3]
^ Tito, Mihailović, and the allies, 1941-1945 By Walter R. Roberts
^ Richard Morrock The Psychology of Genocide and Violent Oppression: A Study of Mass Cruelty
^ Philip J. Cohen,David Riesman. Serbia's Secret War: Propaganda and the Deceit of History. Texas A&M University Press, 1996 ISBN 9780890967607, p. 100.
^ Nigel Thomas,Peter Abbott. Partisan warfare 1941-45. Osprey Publishing, 1983, ISBN 9780850455137, p. 27: "Balli Kombetar, however, preferred German rule to Italian and, believing that only the Germans would allow Kosovo to remain Albanian after the war, began to collaborate.".
^ Tom Winnifrith. Badlands, borderlands: a history of Northern Epirus/Southern Albania "Balle Kombetar, strongly Albanian nationalist, Muslim and at times pro-German". Duckworth, 2002, ISBN 9780715632017, p. 26:
^ a b c Dezhgiu, Muharrem (2006-05-28). (in Albanian)Lajmi Shqip. http://www.lajmishqip.com/?p=568. Retrieved 30 August 2010.
^ Frances Trix. "The Sufi journey of Baba Rexheb". Retrieved 3 August 2011.
^ Owen Pearson. "Albania in Occupation and War: From Fascism to Communism 1940-1945". Retrieved 4 August 2011.
^ Owen Pearson. "Albania in Occupation and War: From Fascism to Communism 1940-1945". Retrieved 4 August 2011.
^ Frances Trix. "The Sufi journey of Baba Rexheb". Retrieved 3 August 2011.
^ Frances Trix. "The Sufi journey of Baba Rexheb". Retrieved 3 August 2011.
^ Irene Grünbaum, Katherine Morris. "Escape Through the Balkans: The Autobiography of Irene Grünbaum". Retrieved 3 August 2011.
^ Historical dictionary of Kosovo By Robert Elsie
^ Hitler's new disorder: the Second World War in Yugoslavia By Stevan K. Pavlowitch [4]
^ a b c Sabrina P. Ramet The three Yugoslavias: state-building and legitimation, 1918-2005
^ Carl Savich. "Macedonia in World War II: Debar and the Skanderbeg Division". Retrieved 4 August 2011.
^ Carl Savich. "Macedonia in World War II: Debar and the Skanderbeg Division". Retrieved 4 August 2011.
^ Carl Savich. "Macedonia in World War II: Debar and the Skanderbeg Division". Retrieved 4 August 2011.
^ Sabrina P. Ramet. "The three Yugoslavias: state-building and legitimation, 1918-2005". Retrieved 4 August 2011.
^ Sabrina P. Ramet. "The three Yugoslavias: state-building and legitimation, 1918-2005". Retrieved 4 August 2011.
^ Sabrina P. Ramet. "The three Yugoslavias: state-building and legitimation, 1918-2005". Retrieved 4 August 2011.
^ former ballist Safet Hyseni. "Safet Hyseni: Mefail Shehu (Zajazi) alias Mefaili i Madh, një strateg ushtarak". Retrieved 7 January 2011.
^ Cyprian Blamires. "World fascism: a historical encyclopedia, Volume 1". Retrieved 14 August 2011.
^ Carl Savich. "Sandzak under Fascist Italy". Retrieved 24 November 2011.
^ Carl Savich. "Sandzak under Fascist Italy". Retrieved 24 November 2011.
^ Carl Savich. "Sandzak under Fascist Italy". Retrieved 24 November 2011.
^ International Crisis Group. "SERBIA'S SANDZAK: STILL FORGOTTEN". Retrieved 24 November 2011.
^ "Nezavisna revija Sandzak". Retrieved 24 November 2011.
^ Robert Elsie. "Balli Kombëtar: The Ten-Point Programme". Retrieved 17 February 2011.
^ Robert Elsie. "Milan von Šufflay: Mediaeval Albania". Retrieved 16 June 2011.
^ Robert Elsie. "Baron Franz Nopcsa". Retrieved 16 June 2011.
^ Cyprian Blamires. "World fascism: a historical encyclopedia, Volume 1". Retrieved 14 August 2011.
^ Cyprian Blamires. "World fascism: a historical encyclopedia, Volume 1". Retrieved 14 August 2011.
^ Robert Elsie. "Mid’hat bey Frashëri:The Epirus Question - the Martyrdom of a People". Retrieved 16 June 2011.
^ Robert Elsie. "Balli Kombëtar: The Ten-Point Programme". Retrieved 17 February 2011.
^ Carl Savich. "Macedonia in World War II: Debar and the Skanderbeg Division". Retrieved 16 June 2011.
^ Filip Zdraveski. "Shkendija fined, their fans can't go to away games". Retrieved 16 June 2011.

[brunette]

Not really, it is commonly known that Slavic orthodox terrorism is the root of all evil in the Balkans


http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/srebrenica_massacre.html




Source (http://www.scribd.com/doc/36949049/Notice-to-Israel-Serbian-Nazis-Killed-Jews-in-World-War-II)

The Serbian Church, "serbian-state guard, Serb police and Serb population helped the Nazis to kill over 90% of the country's Jews, while in the same time Bosnian civilians were killed whenever the chance arose.

So you single out an event which happened and blame Orthodox Christanity. Now why don't you tell all the nice people the whole story. About how the Turks gave Albanians apart of Kosovo how Serbians were ''bought out of their homes''.

[Rron]

Sorab and your point is ? you are totaly off topic dude .

[Ushtari]

So you single out an event which happened and blame Orthodox Christanity. Now why don't you tell all the nice people the whole story. About how the Turks gave Albanians apart of Kosovo how Serbians were ''bought out of their homes''.
I think its obvious that the Orthodox terrorist faith played a big role.


Yes please tell us about it

[Kanuni]

So you single out an event which happened and blame Orthodox Christanity. Now why don't you tell all the nice people the whole story. About how the Turks gave Albanians apart of Kosovo how Serbians were ''bought out of their homes''.

You went offtopic too much, i said manytimes Serbs have nothing to do in Kosovo everyone knows that Kosovars have both highest Paleo-Balkan DNA and highest Indo-European Illyrian origin.Do you undestand that claiming a land because of some medieval churches is lame?;)

[Hurrem sultana]

Picture is clear,no?!

http://i51.tinypic.com/2eqe903.jpg

[Thunor]

I support the humane repatriation of Balkan Muslims back to Turkey.

No one needs to die.

[brunette]

You went offtopic too much, i said manytimes Serbs have nothing to do in Kosovo everyone knows that Kosovars have both highest Paleo-Balkan DNA and highest Indo-European Illyrian origin.Do you undestand that claiming a land because of some medieval churches is lame?;)

The Illyrians were Latin tribes so you're saying all Albanians are of Latin origin All Eastern Europeans are Alpines in origin...?!?... Sure the Romans were Dinarics. But I don't see the Italians claiming Kosovo how insane would that be?

[The Lawspeaker]

Picture is clear,no?!

http://i51.tinypic.com/2eqe903.jpg

http://cdn1.wn.com/pd/19/6d/0c43aa2207b9c13ac7bb042bbfd0_grande.jpg

http://www.srpska-mreza.com/guest/triangle/mujb.jpg

They were both as bad as the other in their use of religion to "sanctify" cold-blooded murder. Different religion - same shit.

[Ushtari]

The Illyrians were Latin tribes so you're saying all Albanians are of Latin All Eastern Europeans are Alpines in origin...?!?... Sure the Romans were Dinarics. But I don't see the Italians claiming Kosovo how insane would that be?
https://static.flashback.org/img/smilies2/whoco5.gif

[Rron]

Albanians dont quote brunette please ,:eek:shis posts are damaging my pc

[Kanuni]

The Illyrians were Latin tribes so you're saying all Albanians are of Latin origin All Eastern Europeans are Alpines in origin...?!?... Sure the Romans were Dinarics. But I don't see the Italians claiming Kosovo how insane would that be?

Illyrians were Illyrian and except of some shared origin with Latins they had nothing in common LOL,i am cutting off with you here.

[brunette]

https://static.flashback.org/img/smilies2/whoco5.gif

Exactly face palm here's Albanias true origins.

http://www.zerbaijan.com/albania/caucasian-albania.html

"In the first century A.D. the region now occupied by Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast was part of the province of Artsakh, which belonged to Caucasian Albania. Feudal relations developed in the third through fifth centuries, and Christianity began to spread. In the early eighth century the Arabs conquered Artsakh, as well as all of Albania, and Islam penetrated the area. (Until that time Gregorianism had flourished among the Christian population.) Artsakh was part of the Albanian kindgdom in the ninth and tenth centuries. In the mid-11th century it was invaded by the Seljuk Turks…. In the 1230's, Artsakh was conquered by the Mongols, and from that time most of its territory was called Karabakh."

(Great Soviet Encyclopedia, 3rd edition, 1973, "NKAO, Historial Survey")

You're just a bunch of Caucasians. :thumb001:

[Loki]

Makes me wonder why we help those Greeks now while we should let them rot after all this.

No, you are wrong about this. The vast majority - 99% of Greeks - had no hand in these tragedies and probably don't even know about it.

[Hurrem sultana]

No, you are wrong about this. The vast majority - 99% of Greeks - had no hand in these tragedies and probably don't even know about it.

makes me think about Absitnhe:) i cant even imagine putting her under the same with those radical terrorist soldiers ;)

[The Lawspeaker]

No, you are wrong about this. The vast majority - 99% of Greeks - had no hand in these tragedies and probably don't even know about it.
It's very unlikely that their government wasn't aware of this. It does make the Greek state complicit to mass-murder though.

[Ushtari]

You're just a bunch of Caucasians. :thumb001:
really, i thought i was Mongoloid till now, thanks

[StonyArabia]

I support the humane repatriation of Balkan Muslims back to Turkey.

No one needs to die.

With deportations, often inhumane events takes place. It's never easy as people think it is. The Balkan Muslims are Balkan people and have lived there all their lives, they are not Turks, and they have every right to be in the Balkans as anyone else. Let's say they were all moved to Turkey, would the area be peaceful, highly doubtful. You also can't blame it on religion, although it did play a large role in this conflict, since it based on aggressive nationalism and fanatic religious elements tragic events take place. The problem is exteremism that has been played in all parts. Frankly in this war which is very sad and disheartining all the people in it lost, and many were innocent.

[The Journeyman]

Picture is clear,no?!

http://i51.tinypic.com/2eqe903.jpg

That's a picture of priests blessing soldiers. A common occurrence even in the US military.

http://a57.foxnews.com/images/457459/450/350/0_21_102308_harrigan.jpg

[Mary]

It's very unlikely that their government wasn't aware of this. It does make the Greek state complicit to mass-murder though.

In the same way that the German and American governments are complicit.

[Ushtari]

That's a picture of priests blessing soldiers. A common occurrence even in the US military.

... right before committing the worst genocide in Europe since WW2

[brunette]

No, you are wrong about this. The vast majority - 99% of Greeks - had no hand in these tragedies and probably don't even know about it.

Yes as I pointed out, the Greek members were apart of Avgis.

This is what the Turks did to the Greek Cypriot members in 1974 which they took North Cyprus.

During the 1974 barbaric Turkish invasion against Cyprus, the Turkish army arrested thousands of Greek-Cypriots. A total of 1619 persons were reported as missing as a result of the 1974 Turkish invasion against Cyprus. They transported many of them to Adana Turkey, or they detained them in Cyprus, either case in the most horrible conditions. Many of them were seen in captivity alive and well, by others who were released later. Turkey, stubbornly still refuses to disclose any information for their fortune, thus violating not only basic Human Rights, but also the International Law. Recently, the leader of the Turkish terrorist organisation TMT, Rauf Denktash, admitted publicly that many Greek Cypriots POWs (Prisoners of War) were slaughtered by Turkish militants. In the photo you can see Greek Cypriots being rounded up by the Turkish army.

[Mary]

With deportations, often inhumane events takes place. It's never easy as people think it is. The Balkan Muslims are Balkan people and have lived there all their lives, they are not Turks, and they have every right to be in the Balkans as anyone else. Let's say they were all moved to Turkey, would the area be peaceful, highly doubtful. You also can't blame it on religion, although it did play a large role in this conflict, since it based on aggressive nationalism and fanatic religious elements tragic events take place. The problem is exteremism that has been played in all parts. Frankly in this war which is very sad and disheartining all the people in it lost, and many were innocent.

1) If they stay they will be wiped out.

2) There have been peaceful population exchanges before. I think both Bulgaria, Yugoslavia and Greece have sent Muslims to Turkey.

[Europa]

Not really, it is commonly known that Slavic orthodox terrorism is the root of all evil in the Balkans


http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/srebrenica_massacre.html




Source (http://www.scribd.com/doc/36949049/Notice-to-Israel-Serbian-Nazis-Killed-Jews-in-World-War-II)

The Serbian Church, "serbian-state guard, Serb police and Serb population helped the Nazis to kill over 90% of the country's Jews, while in the same time Bosnian civilians were killed whenever the chance arose.

Well I don't know about the Bosnian conflict,but you generalised that the Orthodox Church was responsible for all shit that has happened on The Balkans....The Serbs are not the only ones who belong to that church...

[StonyArabia]

You can't blame Christianity no more you then you can blame Islam. The fact is the most destructive element to societies is the mix of aggressive nationalism with fanatic religious elements. This can be seen as universal outcome and often it tend to be savage and brutal.


1) If they stay they will be wiped out.

By who, no one will


2) There have been peaceful population exchanges before. I think both Yugoslavia and Greece have sent Muslims to Turkey.

They were not Muslims but ethnic Turks or Turkified people they have nothing to do with Balkan Muslims who are on the land of their ancestors major difference between this exchange and what some are proposing it's plain cruel simply put why should they ever forefit their homelands no one should.

[The Lawspeaker]

That's a picture of priests blessing soldiers. A common occurrence even in the US military.

http://a57.foxnews.com/images/457459/450/350/0_21_102308_harrigan.jpg
A common occurrence in any army.

But this is, in my eyes, extremely distasteful:

http://pcdocli.ho8.com/DJGOR/CONTENT/Pictures/b2.JPG

German army belts during World War I & II had the following words engraved on the buckle:

Gott mit uns. God be with us. I am not sure who was with them but it wasn't God.

[Lena]

Picture is clear,no?!

http://i51.tinypic.com/2eqe903.jpg

You're extremely ignorant person.

[Hurrem sultana]

1) If they stay they will be wiped out.


Dont make me laugh,,,if they try the only left thing serbs will have is their Belgrade pashaluk ;)

kosovo is gone,Montenegro is gone...any more controversial issues around bosniaks-sandzak is gone

[brunette]

1) If they stay they will be wiped out.

2) There have been peaceful population exchanges before. I think both Bulgaria, Yugoslavia and Greece have sent Muslims to Turkey.

Exactly, that's why they were called Turkish when they converted they had to be expelled there was that and the Janissaries...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissary

[Rron]

Well I don't know about the Bosnian conflict,but you generalised that the Orthodox Church was responsible for all shit that has happened on The Balkans....The Serbs are not the only ones who belong to that church...
Of course he was talking about serbian orthodox church, because we have also our Albanian orthodox church.

[Mosov]

I find this thread in particularly despicable so I'll keep it as short as possible and all im-possible probs and undesirable reactions I'll put on the acct of the thread's initiator.

IF Carrington-Cutileiro peace plan for Bosnia was accepted and Alija Izetbegovic kept his sig on a document all sides approved, all of this wouldn't happen and Muslims from Bosnia would territorially have more than today without additional human loss. There's nothing romantic in a civil war, much less on this kind of infantile threads.

Lena Jan, I completely agree....when you have NATO/Western Media machine against you, it's very difficult to tell a more balanced story...people ignore how Serbs also suffered in the war and the atrocity of the NATO bombing..

[rashka]

Not really, it is commonly known that Slavic orthodox terrorism is the root of all evil in the Balkans

http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/srebrenica_massacre.html

Source (http://www.scribd.com/doc/36949049/Notice-to-Israel-Serbian-Nazis-Killed-Jews-in-World-War-II)

The Serbian Church, "serbian-state guard, Serb police and Serb population helped the Nazis to kill over 90% of the country's Jews, while in the same time Bosnian civilians were killed whenever the chance arose.


Stop lying and you can't blame Slavic orthodoxism for the war. Your statement shows your biased views and a secret desire to link all of the Balkans to Turkey. Turks have no business in Serb/Bosnian affairs. Everyone knows that Bosnian muslims sided with the Nazis and killed Serbs and Jews in WW2 www.jasenovac.org and made a genocide in Yugoslavia to get rid of the Serbs and Jews. I don't know what you are trying to prove with all that propaganda.
Turks have no clue about the life in Bosnia. All they know is what they have been fed by biased news at the time of the Bosnian war. But you were probably just 5 years old at the time. Muslims just want an excuse to put their feet and their noses in a land where they don't belong. Islam does not belong in Bosnia. There was nothing but a black cloud when the Turks came but when they left the cloud lifted- and that was not so long ago. It takes some time for it all to be cleared. But definitely it left a devastating mark.

A Bosnian can be either a Serb or a Muslim.

I read the first couple of pages of this topic. Let's cry for the baby's coffin reply by the Bosnian :angel: from the first couple of pages of this topic. Who's crying for these tortured and murdered Serbs? The genocide of Bosnian SERBS made by Bosnian Muslims.
The crimes that were committed against the Serbian people were enormous.
Evidence of Atrocities made against Serbs: And this is only part of it...
link removed- anyone can google for evidence.

[brunette]

Basically all the Balkan ethnicities that converted under the Turkish yolk were called Turkish it wasn't just to forget their origins because alot of people know it. There's still a ex amount of Christians who live in the European zone over there. It was incompatible with Western views and beliefs and no Turkish people aren't any different from Muslims in the Balkans they joined the Janissaries and enrolled them in the Devshirme system.

Devshirme (Ottoman دوشيرمه‎, Greek παιδομάζωμα, Armenian: Մանկահավաք, Mankahavak' - child-gathering; Croatian: Danak u krvi, Serbian: Данак у крви / Danak u krvi, Macedonian: Данок по крв / Danok po krv and Bulgarian: Кръвен данък - tribute in blood) was the practice by which the Ottoman Empire conscripted boys from Christian families, who were taken from their families and by force converted to Islam,[1] trained and enrolled in one of the four imperial institutions: the Palace, the Scribes, the Religious and the Military.

[Ushtari]

Well I don't know about the Bosnian conflict,but you generalised that the Orthodox Church was responsible for all shit that has happened on The Balkans....The Serbs are not the only ones who belong to that church...
you Bulgarians are no different.

[brunette]

Turks have no business in Serb/Bosnian affairs.

There wouldn't be any affairs to begin with if it wasn't for that.

[Lena]

Why have Muslims not been on trial in the Hague - for atrocities against humanity

Evidence of Atrocities made against Serbs: And this is only part of it...


Pls, Rashka, if I may ask you to remove link 'cause we don't need that...not on a forums.

Thanks for understanding.

[Europa]

Of course he was talking about serbian orthodox church, because we have also our Albanian orthodox church.

No he said Orthodox Church......

[Mary]

Dont make me laugh,,,if they try the only left thing serbs will have is their Belgrade pashaluk ;)

The Serbs are militarily superior to everyone else in the Western Balkans.

Proof:

* When the other tribes were given full military support by both the West and the Muslim world, the best they achieved against against Bosnian Serb forces was a draw.

If they were to fight the army of Serbia proper they would lose.



kosovo is gone,Montenegro is gone...any more controversial issues around bosniaks-sandzak is gone

Those are political settlements. Not military ones.

If you pitch the Serbs against Albanians, Bosnians or Croats tomorrow they will wipe them out.

[Europa]

you Bulgarians are no different.

And you are pathetic.You know nothing about us.Instead of accept your misconseption you had nothing else to write but ...the above.Clown

[brunette]

No he said Orthodox Church......

Doesn't matter dude, bullshit is bullshit.

[Ushtari]

The Serbs are militarily superior to everyone else in the Western Balkans.
Is that why they lost every war they started?

[Rron]

No he said Orthodox Church......
Its clear now about which church he said , there were not Bulgarian piests blessing them , so chill.

[Hurrem sultana]

The Serbs are militarily superior to everyone else in the Western Balkans.

Proof:

* When the other tribes were given full military support by both the West and the Muslim world, the best they achieved against against Bosnian Serb forces was a draw.

If they were to fight the army of Serbia proper they would lose.



Those are political settlements. Not military ones.

If you pitch the Serbs against Albanians, Bosnians or Croats tomorrow they will wipe them out.


Yep that is why they keep loosing every time they try to accomplish their big "serbian dream"

[Europa]

In fact this thread is just overloaded with trolls and ignorant people,so I don't see a reason for me to stay here anymore.....Have 'nice' debate..

[Armenian Bishop]

And Armenians which were once the victims of genocide!!


Or so they say.

The aftershocks of the Armenian Genocide continue, even today, as Turkey restricts freedom of speech within it's own country, and spends hundreds of millions of dollars to spread lies and fake information about it, with worldwide deceitful propaganda.

To be complicit in soothing the guilty conscience of Turks, won't change the truth: Tell that to my distant ancestors, in Moush, near Lake Van. But, you can't, because they were all murdered by Turks and Kurds, by orders from the Young Turks -- burned alive in the ashes of their homes and churches.

The millions of Armenians, in their historical homeland in the Armenian Highlands of Western Armenia, all perished or disappeared from the landscape.


Genocide against Armenians its hostorical fact , only idiots deny it. Ps: Sorry of topic

Thank You! :)

I started a discussion about it, on my new thread:


Western Armenia is a vast area of the Armenian Highlands which dwarfs present day Armenia. Anything which contributes to our understanding of Western Armenia is welcomed here.

With stories, pictures, videos, and personal accounts, we can paint a panorama for the legacy of our Armenian Ancestors in Western Armenia. A discussion of historical, political, and spiritual elements of Western Armenia is also welcomed. Here we can share our personal legacy to the cities and regions where our ancestors once lived, until they and their memories perished in the massacres and final Young Turk genocide, which we call the Armenian Genocide (1915-1923).

Is it possible that Armenians again will live, breath and sing in The Armenian Highlands, of Western Armenia? I do not have the answer to that question. As incredible as it may seem, even more remarkable miracles have come true. Give it time, and many unbelievable things can come true. It would be justice, to see Armenian Children playing in the homes of their ancestors.

Ghostly Armenian Voices sing in the very sound of the water that splashes on the stones of the Armenian Highlands of Western Armenian. Ghostly Armenian faces are carved into the stones of the ancient ruins. Alas, Western Armenia is now a living monument for Armenians who perished for living in their ancient homeland. The Turkish Flag curls in the wind, above the very streets, where Armenian Children once roamed the streets, but those children found death, their bones bleached in the sun rays of the landscape.

Kurds use the monastic ruins, where Armenian Priests once prayed, as grazing grounds for their cattle. They call it Kurdistan, without grasping the violation of the territorial integrity of Armenia, by modern day Turkey. A well orchestrated Turkish strategy of genocide, first saw to it that all Armenians were banished from Western Armenian, during the days of the Young Turks; and, with the founding of the Republic of Modern Turkey, the work of genocide continues, with the neglect and destruction of Armenian Historic Landmarks.

[Lena]

Yep that is why they keep loosing every time they try to accomplish their big "serbian dream"

All this coming from a Bosnian Muslim who whines on a public forum?!

Jel' stanes ti malo nekada, pa procitas sebe, reflektujes sve i napravis novi tok misli ili samo podizes gluposti sa nacionalistiskih blogova da bi hranila tu mrznju koju imas u svom srcu?!

Ljudi koji se time preokupiraju postanu ruzni, spolja i iznutra.

[Mary]

Is that why they lost every war they started?

They lost the wars politically. But not militarily. That's an important difference.

[brunette]

Why would it be any different what religious sect Albanians are from... Albania is what a 70 percent Muslim majority country. They still support the NWO they still support Nato.

The Serbians Armenians Bulgarians Russians and Greeks do not.

[Hurrem sultana]

They lost the wars politically. But not militarily. That's an important difference.

they keep dreaming about "big serbia",but for every time serbia gets smaller ;) what is the positive thing?

[The Lawspeaker]

Greece is a NATO founding member...