Weakest link of Christian Europe...

[Nairi]

"Today Christian Europe is a chain, the existence of which will be decided by its weakest link – NKR"

Member of Slovak parliament writes article about his impressions from Armenia and Karabakh

First Speaker of the Slovak National Council, now a member of Slovak parliament Frantisek Miklosko observing the 5th parliamentary elections in May in Artsakh became a persona non-grata in Azerbaijan. Lately, he published an article about Armenia, Artsakh and the impressions he got from them in a renowned Slovak periodical, Tyzden. Article’s Armenian translation was provided to the editorial office by the Forum of Armenian Associations of Europe. The article under the title “The Promised Land” is presented below completely:

“The Promised Land”
“The waters were flowing and returning to the earth, and the waters lessened in 150 days. In the 7th month, on the 17th day of the month, the Ark landed on Mount Ararat peak. The waters were lessening more and more by the 10th month. Mountain peaks appeared on the first day of the 10th month.” /The Bible, Part 1, 8,3-5/.
I visited Armenia and Nagorno Karabakh the other day. When you are in Yerevan and look around from a high point you see Small Ararat and Large Ararat on one side without fail. From all sides the city is surrounded by 3-4 thousand-meter-high mountain peaks. And you clearly understand that the first book of the Bible describes some things very exactly.

Mankind

set off on pilgrimage from these lands for the second time and God’s promise –“I will no more curse the earth for the sake of man” – was voiced on these lands.”
Christianity got free and was adopted as state religion in Armenia in 301, that is, 12 years earlier than in the west. It was done by king Tiridates the Great (Trdat Mets), thanks to Gregory the Illuminator miracle and christening. The Armenian alphabet (36 letters) was invented in 405, by Armenian monk, theologian and linguist Saint Mesrop Mashtots.
Armenia is a mountainous land, covered with churches and monasteries. The Armenians realize the value of their old history and culture. It is a proud nation undergoing ordeals throughout its history.
Armenia is a beautiful mountainous country while Artsakh is perceived as the Promised Land, with its mountains, green, large valleys and rocks. Armenia adopted Christianity in 301, while there is a 1st century church in Artsakh, according to legend, built by Bartholomew the Apostle (the latter acted in Armenia and was tortured there).

I observed the 5th parliament elections of Nagorno-Karabakh Republic with FAAE President Ashot Grigoryan on May 23, 2010. Under the Soviet Union NKR was an autonomous state within Azerbaijani SSR (on historic Armenia’s lands). After the collapse of the USSR a referendum was held in NKR on December 10, 1991 and it was proclaimed independent. Then a war broke out in 1991-1994: Azerbaijan attacked NKR and Armenia. Today NKR has Armenian population of 138 thousand people. NKR de facto is an independent republic, while de jure no state has recognized it yet.

28 observers from Russia took part in monitoring the elections (the most renowned is K. Zatulin, Russian State Duma member, member of Putin-led party, many years’ friend of Armenia and NKR), 16 observers from Europe, 9 Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Transdniestria, 7 from Canada, U.S. and South America, 4 Iran. The day before the elections already we were informed that we have been declared persona non-grata.
My participation in the NKR elections as an observer, being there and seeing the land affected by the recent war with Azerbaijan gave quite a new feeling to my political perceptions. We visited various electoral districts, towns and villages as well as once renowned town of Aghdam, a town with the population of 20 thousand people, bombed, deserted, with rare animals or homeless people.
Like anywhere else, the polling stations were located in cultural centers and schools. In almost all schools we saw on the walls black and white photos of young men and women who had attended that school and perished in the last war. I was just as much impressed by meeting NKR political figures and officials most of which had fought in the war. NKR Defense Minister Movses Hakobyan, a very impressive and very modest man in an official uniform, indeed has fought in the war and is a national hero.
NKR Prosecutor General Arshavir Ghahramanyan, army General, is NKR national hero. He had been captured by the Azerbaijani side, then was exchanged for 42 Azerbaijani officers and soldiers. He is also NKR national hero and an embodiment of modesty. And Archbishop of NKR Armenian Church Pargev Martirosyan fought in the war with arms in his hands and today is also a national hero. The legality of such individuals’ as well as NKR President’s and government members’ existence is proved not only by the elections but also the fact that they faced the death, fought to save the homeland and were ready to sacrifice their lives for the sake of saving the homeland.
Two events took place in NKR in the evening preceding the elections: the European Parliament accepted Bulgarian MP’s proposal to return NKR to Azerbaijan. At best, this decision can be considered illegal.
Lake Sevan is located at a height of 2 thousand meters above sea level in Armenia. There is a 4th century Christian cemetery with over 2 thousand unique cross-stones near the lake. Some of them have been displayed at the Louvre Museum in Paris. A similar 4th century cemetery, yet with almost 6 thousand unique cross-stones was located in Nakhichevan which is today in Azerbaijan’s territory. As far as I remember, it was in 2005 when the Azerbaijanis broke all those cross-stones, threw them into wagons and took away. There is a deserted area today in the place of former cemetery. The European Parliament perhaps wants also to give green light to such a future for the ancient Armenian culture in NKR.
The day before the elections NKR Foreign Ministry learnt another news from Brussels. European Union Foreign Minister Baroness Catherine Ashton declared that EU does not recognize the NKR elections. After the elections 63 independent observers signed a statement, according to which, the NKR elections were peaceful, free and democratic and met all international norms and requirements. I will say in addition to this that the 71% elections turnout made me feel that NKR independence referendum was again held.
NKR is a country of tolerance and democracy unlike, for instance, Azerbaijan where the parliament has lately adopted a constitutional law on granting Aliyev life rule mandate.
During my stay in NKR I got the impression that the Nagorno-Karabakh problem is after all a European Union problem. 138 thousand residents in NKR in a hopeless condition protect their
Christian civilization, history, their spiritual and physical essence. Today NKR exists especially thanks to envoys of Russia, U.S. and France who make the so-called Minsk Group and search a solution. NKR also exists thanks to Armenians living in Armenia and NKR who are ready to defend NKR in a war if Azerbaijan – a bigger yet a weaker state – attacks.
In 1938 European super-mighty countries ceded the territories of Czech Republic and Slovakia to Hitler intending thus to save peace in Europe. Indeed they saved neither the peace nor themselves. If EU misses the chance of saving the small NKR and its Christian civilization allowing the foreign civilization to triumph there, no doubt the same will happen to the very EU. Today Christian Europe is a chain, the existence of which will be decided by its weakest link – NKR.
To be in Armenia and not to see Mount Ararat is the same as to be in Rome and not to see the Pope. Pushkin traveled to Yerevan for 23 days and waited for 7 days to see Ararat. When he failed he said: “Ararat, I had been waiting for 7 days to see your face. It’s a pity you hid it but you saw mine instead.”
I am not Pushkin, and maybe that is why I had the opportunity to enjoy last happiness in the last evening, after visiting Etchmiadzin, when Catholicos of All Armenians, His Holiness Karekin II blessed me; suddenly Ararat opened at sunset and I was able to see the inimitable beauty of this magnificent mountain that I will never forget.

[Onur]

Armenians, i am really not saying this to brag about my country or something like that but i can safely say that as being a person who thoroughly follows Turkish and Azerbaijani politics;

There will be a war for the Nagarno-Karabakh region in less than 5 years if Armenian state doesn't pull back their soldiers from there. If Armenia doesn't end it`s occupation, this is 100% certain.

Also, it`s really not possible for Turkey to stand back and watch when this happens regardless of what Russia or other big guns says or does.

Turkish people are generally emotional and we usually act without thinking about the possible consequences when things gets edgy. I am really warning you but in a friendly way. When things reaches to the limits, when the water gets boiled, not the Slovakian christianity romanticism, not your diaspora`s screams, not even Russia, no one can save you.

I am really not kidding here nor bragging about my country. Things will really go ugly and you will be the one who will get hurt in the end. If you insist about NGK issue, you will be devastated and you will bring your own doom.

[Nairi]

Armenians, i am really not saying this to brag about my country or something like that but i can safely say that as being a person who thoroughly follows Turkish and Azerbaijani politics;

There will be a war for the Nagarno-Karabakh region in less than 5 years if Armenian state doesn't pull back their soldiers from there. If Armenia doesn't end it`s occupation, this is 100% certain.

Also, it`s really not possible for Turkey to stand back and watch when this happens regardless of what Russia or other big guns says or does.

Turkish people are generally emotional and we usually act without thinking about the possible consequences when things gets edgy. I am really warning you but in a friendly way. When things reaches to the limits, when the water gets boiled, not Slovakians, not your diaspora`s screams, not even Russia, no one can save you.

I am really not kidding here nor bragging about my country. Things will really go ugly and you will be the one who will get hurt in the end. If you insist about NGK issue, you will bring your own doom.

Thank you for your friendly warning, Onur, I appreciate that. :confused: :D

We are ready to fight and die for our native sacred lands.

We owe liberty of Artsakh to Armenia and Diaspora fedayis and we cherish every single drop they shed for returning one of historical parts of Armenian Highland.

[The Lawspeaker]

In any case, Onur, my country should stay the hell out and I hope that the rest of Europe (including Russia) does too, because, frankly, Europe should not lose a single night of sleep over that bananastan.

And Mikloško is pure fringe and consequently no one gives 5 cents about what he has to say.

[Nairi]

The same crew is here lol

Don't worry, Armenia fought its own battle, your country never knew about it, neither we asked and waited for help.

[The Lawspeaker]

The same crew is here lol

Don't worry, Armenia fought its own battle, your country never knew about it, neither we asked and waited for help.
Very well and since Russia will probably also be like "err forget it". You'll be out to dry. One less banana republic in this world to worry about.

[Padre Organtino]

Civis has actually outdone Joe in Armo bashing, lol.

Anyway, I don't see Armenia's or Georgia's success/failure has a direct impact upon Europe. I mean I would help both countries in development and etc to have pleasant neighbours but I don't see why Europe should be really worried about the survival of both countries.

[The Lawspeaker]

Anyway, I don't see Armenia's or Georgia's success/failure has a direct impact upon Europe. I mean I would help both countries in development and etc to have pleasant neighbours but I don't see why Europe should be really worried about the survival of both countries.
Last time I checked we should actually be inclined to choose the side of Azerbaijan because of the pipelines. But since Turkey will teach the Armenians a lesson and the Russians will probably be more then able to keep up a steady supply of gas we probably can't be arsed.

[Nairi]

Very well and since Russia will probably also be like "err forget it". You'll be out to dry. One less banana republic in this world to worry about.

You came here to say that? You said it, great...

[Loki]

Also, it`s really not possible for Turkey to stand back and watch when this happens regardless of what Russia or other big guns says or does.


Do not underestimate modern Russia. Nazi Germany did.

[Loki]

Do not underestimate modern Russia. Nazi Germany did.

Putin is coming to power. If Turkey wants to mess up its current prosperity it should fuck with Russia in the next decade.

[The Lawspeaker]

But if the Armenians would like to try and block off the gas lines in an attempt to blackmail Europe into supporting them it would probably blow up in their faces with both Russia and Europe not being happy about it and actually telling the Turks to "sort out the little issue". That's how politics works. And the Armenians should just deal with that.

[Mosov]

Armenians, i am really not saying this to brag about my country or something like that but i can safely say that as being a person who thoroughly follows Turkish and Azerbaijani politics;

There will be a war for the Nagarno-Karabakh region in less than 5 years if Armenian state doesn't pull back their soldiers from there. If Armenia doesn't end it`s occupation, this is 100% certain.

Also, it`s really not possible for Turkey to stand back and watch when this happens regardless of what Russia or other big guns says or does.

Turkish people are generally emotional and we usually act without thinking about the possible consequences when things gets edgy. I am really warning you but in a friendly way. When things reaches to the limits, when the water gets boiled, not the Slovakian christianity romanticism, not your diaspora`s screams, not even Russia, no one can save you.

I am really not kidding here nor bragging about my country. Things will really go ugly and you will be the one who will get hurt in the end. If you insist about NGK issue, you will be devastated and you will bring your own doom.

Azerbaijan risks a lot by deciding to attack. It's economic investments, political stability, and so forth. Military experts have said that Armenians have the military advantage and that Azerbaijan is fooling itself in thinking it can re-take Karabakh. You know how hard it is to take back a very mountainous, well defended land? If Aliyev knew he could retake Karabakh with no severe risks he would have done so, the fact is he knows it will be very hard to do so, and such a war goes against the wishes of the big powers (US, Russia, Europe). So Aliyev has his hands tied.

Turkey attacks it becomes world war 3, just like it was warned during the first war. I doubt Turkey wants to have an all out war with Russia/Armenia deplete its economy, ruin investments, over Karabakh. Give me a break.


Very well and since Russia will probably also be like "err forget it". You'll be out to dry. One less banana republic in this world to worry about.

Azerbaijan at this moment does not have military capabilities to retake Karabakh. And you want the definition of a 'banana republic' that's Azerbaijan lol.

[Mosov]

Civis has actually outdone Joe in Armo bashing, lol.

Anyway, I don't see Armenia's or Georgia's success/failure has a direct impact upon Europe. I mean I would help both countries in development and etc to have pleasant neighbours but I don't see why Europe should be really worried about the survival of both countries.

Just his flavour of the month. Don't take him seriously lol.

[The Lawspeaker]

Azerbaijan at this moment does not have military capabilities to retake Karabakh. And you want the definition of a 'banana republic' that's Azerbaijan lol.
They are an oil and gas republic. Unlike Armenia. The geopolitical reality: they have the oil, you have fuck all.

And that's what makes them more interesting for Europe then you.

[Nairi]

But if the Armenians would like to try and block off the gas lines in an attempt to blackmail Europe into supporting them it would probably blow up in their faces with both Russia and Europe not being happy about it and actually telling the Turks to "sort out the little issue". That's how politics works. And the Armenians should just deal with that.

Armenia will bomb gas pipes not to blackmail Europe but to punish Azerbaijan for atatcking Artsakh, we have warned them many times. If they attack us we will not let them gain money via gas pipes. Nothing to do with Europe but exclusively with country which is attacking us. We have to defen ourselves.

[Mosov]

They are an oil and gas republic. Unlike Armenia.

Read this:


The women had dressed up for the special evening. The wife and two daughters of Ilham Aliyev, the president of Azerbaijan, were awaiting the arrival of Lynne Cheney, the wife of then-US Vice President Dick Cheney. She had accompanied her husband on a state visit to the country in September 2008 -- and it was time for the evening meal.

Bodyguards and diplomats from the US Embassy in the capital Baku were also waiting for the guests. They wanted to keep an eye on Aliyev's family -- particularly the influential first lady, Mehriban. But which of the three women was she?
Mehriban and her daughters, the Americans knew, are very fashion-conscious and don't shy away from a bit of provocative evening wear. Making things more difficult, US diplomats noted, was the fact that Azerbaijan's first lady is thought to have undergone cosmetic surgery more than once. Since then, they note in a dispatch to Washington, she looks quite a bit younger, but can hardly move her face. Finally, one said: "Well, logically the mother would probably stand in the middle."

The account of the encounter is included in a secret memo from the US Embassy in Baku -- and reads like a sarcastic description from US diplomats who feel like they are stranded in some banana republic in the middle of nowhere.

A New Chapter in the Great Game

But the reality is very different. Azerbaijan, which lies in the Caspian basin and has a population of 9 million, is one of the US's strategic energy partners, despite being located within Russia's sphere of influence. The country boasts proven energy reserves of roughly 7 billion barrels of oil and 1.3 trillion cubic meters of natural gas. Millions of barrels of these natural resources flow to the West each year via a pipeline connecting the Azerbaijani capital with Ceyhan, a Turkish port on the Mediterranean Sea.

The Cheneys were in Baku to befriend the Aliyevs in exactly the same way that Richard Morningstar, US special envoy for Caspian energy development, has been doing in the Obama era. Morningstar already served under former President Bill Clinton, who recognized Azerbaijan's strategic importance back in the 1990s. Morningstar helped shape the vision of the €2.5 billion ($3.4 billion) Baku-Ceyhan pipeline. The Americans even sent experts to show the Azerbaijanis how to protect, for example, the underwater sections of the expensive pipeline from saboteurs.

The "Great Game" is what the 19th century battle between the British and the Russians over Central Asian influence was called. These days, the Americans are also on the frontlines of this battle -- and the potential rewards are much larger. Unfortunately, as the State Department's classified documents make clear, the price that American diplomats have to pay is also much greater.

Like the other oil-producing countries around the Caspian Sea, Azerbaijan is an embarrassing partner to have. The country's corrupt institutions are unable to deal with the oil boom and the billions of dollars it brings into the county, while the average annual growth rate of almost 15 percent is a much higher priority than enforcing and improving law and order. Independent media outlets are restricted, and dissidents are violently suppressed. Shortly before his death, Heydar Aliyev, the dictator who ruled Azerbaijan from 1993 to 2003, naturally handed over power to his son Ilham, who does things exactly the way his father did.

'Well-Connected Families'

The American documents leave no doubt that the diplomats know exactly who they are courting. Cables bear titles like "Who owns what?" in which they provide portraits of the country's most powerful families. "Observers in Baku often note that today's Azerbaijan is run in a manner similar to the feudalism found in Europe during the Middle Ages," one such cable reads. "A handful of well-connected families control certain geographic areas, as well as certain sectors of the economy."

The memo continues: "By and large, this seems to be the case, with general agreement among leading families to divide the spoils and not disturb one another's areas of business or geographic control. The families also collude ... to keep out foreign competitors."

Naturally, the best off is the ruling Aliyev family. Although the American diplomats write that the first lady, Mehridan Aliyeva, is "poorly informed about political issues, they report that she is very powerful when it comes to providing for members of her own family. For example, her sister Nargis serves as head of the satellite campus of Lomonosov Moscow State University in Baku, her father is the director of the country's National Academy of Aviation and her uncle is the deputy foreign minister.

Nar Mobile/Azerfon, one of the country's largest wireless communication companies, belongs to the Aliyev family's business empire. The company just happens to have received the only license to operate modern high-speed cell-phone networks in Azerbaijan -- effectively a license to print money. Its rival Azercell lost out in the bidding process. And when Azercell tried to defend itself on a separate matter, Nar Mobile/Azerfon took it to court -- where, of course, it promptly won the case.

'Introduced by Benjamin Franklin'

"It is often said mockingly that in Azerbaijan's judicial system, one can only win a case if one is friends with the judge," writes one American diplomat, "or if introduced by Benjamin Franklin" -- a reference to the US founding father's likeness on the $100 bill.

Of course, the diplomats say, it is equally advantageous to be well-connected politically -- particularly when it comes to the lucrative construction industry. Western experts know that not much gets built in Azerbaijan without a "kryscha" ("roof") -- protection provided by organized crime. The company Pasha Construction, which also belongs to the Aliyevs' business empire, naturally has the best protection available. Buildings constructed by Pasha usually go up quickly and with few hindrances; their competitors, on the other hand, often face hurdles. Pasha, not surprisingly, has few concerns about its bottom line.

But the Aliyevs are generous, and let other families rake it in as well. Take the Heydarovs, for example. The family's patriarch, Kamaladdin, was appointed head of the national customs committee -- considered extremely corrupt even by Azerbaijani standards -- "at the ripe old age of 35," as the America diplomats sarcastically note.

Kamaladdin, though, is not short on excellent references: His father, Fattah, was a close confidant of the elder Aliyev. And when the American chargé d'affaires met the younger Heydarov for the first time, he noted how his chest was covered with metals and decorations "that would rival the US Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff."

The Tragedy of Oil

Heydarov's sons apparently enjoy their power and wealth to the fullest. One section about them in a secret memo on Heydarov even bears the title "His Boys and Their Toys." The Heydarov sons already own a soccer club and are supposedly trying to buy two American Gulfstream jets at €20 million each.

To do so, according to new American anti-terror regulations, they will have to prove that they acquired their wealth by lawful means. The requirement proved unproblematic: They simply sent a long list of their family's investment holdings to Gulfstream. According to these documents, the family is involved in a wide variety of industries -- including concrete, asphalt, chemicals, textiles, dairy products, alcohol and construction -- as well as a few smaller things on the side, such as a de facto monopoly on pomegranate juice.
While a few Azerbaijani clans are getting richer and richer, thanks to all the dollars pouring into the country, the rest of the population is barely scraping by. Over 40 percent of the country's inhabitants are living in poverty; the average monthly income is just €24. As Lala Shevkat, the leader of the Liberal Party of Azerbaijan, says: "Oil is our tragedy."

The Americans, however, have not let such problems frighten them away. On the contrary, they are even pushing for greater cooperation on security. Following the visit of an American envoy to Baku, one diplomat noted with satisfaction that he "underscored to President Aliyev the value that the US government attached to the relationship with Azerbaijan."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,734307,00.html

[Mosov]

Armenia will bomb gas pipes not to blackmail Europe but to punish Azerbaijan for atatcking Artsakh, we have warned them many times. If they attack us we will not let them gain money via gas pipes. Nothing to do with Europe but exclusively with country which is attacking us. We have to defen ourselves.

The aliyev clan is too concerned about their wealth to attack. He uses the Karabakh issue as a political tool. He knows that attacking Karabakh will be devastating for his country.

[Romanion]

Onur is a armchair general. He goes around online and thinks he knows what top level officials do. Turkey won't do anything, niether will Azerbijan. Turks are pissed that the smaller Armenian army defeat the might "turkish" people :eek: Turks are not what they make themselves out to be.

"Turkish" PM tries to ride a horse:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5ZTKe8C4DQ

I guess he's not Turkish :D

[The Lawspeaker]

Armenia will bomb gas pipes not to blackmail Europe but to punish Azerbaijan for atatcking Artsakh, we have warned them many times. If they attack us we will not let them gain money via gas pipes. Nothing to do with Europe but exclusively with country which is attacking us. We have to defen ourselves.
Which would indeed prompt Europe and Russia into action. Against Armenia because that would be considered an attack on our strategic interests. Now that would be cutting your own fingers. I can read the headlines already:

Armenian terrorists have blown up pipe line in Azerbaijan.

And then they become more dramatic. About slaughters here and there by Armenian terrorists.

A couple of weeks later: fighter aircraft fly over Yerevan bombing the fuck of your government headquarters. Not just Turkish fighters but probably French or Italian or German. We know how it works.

[Padre Organtino]

BTW what does religion have to do with the whole conflict? It's clearly an ethnic clash not really civilizational. Azeris are mostly irreligious - even less Muslim than say Bosnians.

[The Lawspeaker]

Read this:



http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,734307,00.html
Political reality: no one gives a fuck. This however would make politicians here stop yawning:

http://asbarez.com/App/Asbarez/eng/2010/03/8FDC6ACC-7749-4311-B185-DFF57109E84D_mw800_mh600.jpg

http://neftegaz.ru/images/Neft%20Perey/Azerbaijan%20refinery.jpg

And what country has that ? Not Armenia. No.. that's Azerbaijan.

[Nairi]

Which would indeed prompt Europe and Russia into action. Against Armenia because that would be considered an attack on our strategic interests. Now that would be cutting your own fingers. I can read the headlines already:

Armenian terrorists have blown up pipe line in Azerbaijan.

And then they become more dramatic. About slaughters here and there by Armenian terrorists.

A couple of weeks later: fighter aircraft fly over Yerevan bombing the fuck of your government headquarters. Not just Turkish fighters but probably French or Italian or German. We know how it works.

You make empty posts and derail every thread about Armenia.

[Mosov]

Which would indeed prompt Europe and Russia into action. Against Armenia because that would be considered an attack on our strategic interests. Now that would be cutting your own fingers. I can read the headlines already:

Armenian terrorists have blown up pipe line in Azerbaijan.

And then they become more dramatic. About slaughters here and there by Armenian terrorists.

A couple of weeks later: fighter aircraft fly over Yerevan bombing the fuck of your government headquarters. Not just Turkish fighters but probably French or Italian or German. We know how it works.

No it's other way around. It's European/US powers condemning Azerbaijan for starting a war, putting the whole region into unstable situation, jeopardising regional energy projects, hurting oil input, and so forth. A pipeline getting blown up would just be collateral damage as a result of Azeri foolishness.

[The Lawspeaker]

You make empty posts and derail every thread about Armenia.
Because you know it's true. An Armenian attack on Azerbaijan.. particularly if pipelines are blown up gets you bombed. It's the old reality: you mess with our strategic interests? You get bombed.

[The Lawspeaker]

No it's other way around. It's European/US powers condemning Azerbaijan for starting a war, putting the whole region into unstable situation, jeopardising regional energy projects, hurting oil input, and so forth. A pipeline getting blown up would just be collateral damage as a result of Azeri foolishness.
I don't think so because it would be Armenia starting the war and Armenia blowing up pipelines. Consequence: Armenia gets bombed. "Liberated".

Remember Iraq ? Remember Libya ? That's how it works. So be smart: and don't.

[Romanion]

Political reality: no one gives a fuck. This however would make politicians here stop yawning:

http://asbarez.com/App/Asbarez/eng/2010/03/8FDC6ACC-7749-4311-B185-DFF57109E84D_mw800_mh600.jpg

http://neftegaz.ru/images/Neft%20Perey/Azerbaijan%20refinery.jpg

And what country has that ? Not Armenia. No.. that's Azerbaijan.

For someone who doesn't like American imperialism, you seem to follow a similar perspective they do when it comes to oil :thumb001:

[The Lawspeaker]

For someone who doesn't like American imperialism, you seem to follow a similar perspective they do when it comes to oil :thumb001:
That's because I know damn well what our politicians will do. It's not something I would do but it's something that I know will happen when the Armenians attack an oil-rich country. It gets them bombed.

[Romanion]

That's because I know damn well what our politicians will do. It's not something I would do but it's something that I know will happen when the Armenians attack an oil-rich country. It gets them bombed.

Why would Armenia attack Azerbijan? Its probably going to be the other way around if it did happen, which it won't.

[The Lawspeaker]

Why would Armenia attack Azerbijan? Its probably going to be the other way around if it did happen, which it won't.
Nagorno-Karabakh.

[Mosov]

I don't think so because it would be Armenia starting the war and Armenia blowing up pipelines. Consequence: Armenia gets bombed. "Liberated".

Remember Iraq ? Remember Libya ? That's how it works. So be smart: and don't.

How the hell would Armenia be starting the war? It's Azerbaijan attacking NKR. Not the other way around lol

Again war is not in anybody's interests, the West doesn't want their regional interests/projects fucked up in the Caucasus because little Aliyev is butt hurt about losing Karabakh.

[Romanion]

Nagorno-Karabakh.

It's already owned by Armenia, if not officially. It would be Azerbijan who attacks it not the other way around.

[The Lawspeaker]

How the hell would Armenia be starting the war? It's Azerbaijan attacking NKR. Not the other way around lol

Again war is not in anybody's interests, the West doesn't want their regional interests/projects fucked up in the Caucasus because little Aliyev is butt hurt about losing Karabakh.
If Armenia would intervene then definitely. It's about the pipelines and the oil fields, remember ? If Armenia would touch them... then Europe would touch Armenia fist in face.

In the Azeri's would blow them up they would get a fist in their face. Same story.


It's already owned by Armenia, if not officially. It would be Azerbijan who attacks it not the other way around.
Not recognised as such.

[Nairi]

Please, everyone, stop responding to Civis's provocations.
His posts are utterly provocative and plain stupid.
his Ego needs to win every single online argument, he is here 24/7 literally, let him say the last word. :D


I am interested in other users' opinions, otherwise he hijacts all our threads and doesn't allow anyone to express their opinion!

[The Lawspeaker]

......
I think you should realise how little people care about that statement by a fringer. When Armenia falls, Armenia falls. The world wouldn't care (apart from the Armenian lobbyists abroad - they would care) and just move on.

[Romanion]

[QUOTE]Not recognised as such.

Legal semantics. It's Armenians who control it.

[Mosov]

If Armenia would intervene then definitely. It's about the pipelines and the oil fields, remember ? If Armenia would touch them... then Europe would touch Armenia fist in face.

In the Azeri's would blow them up they would get a fist in their face. Same story.


No it's about Azerbaijan attacking NKR. Why would Armenia attack Azerbaijan? lol

Again, the West is holding Aliyev on a leash not to attack, because they don't want their economic interests fucked up because of a war. Though Aliyev himself is not too crazy about attacking because he wants the oil to keep on flowing and investments to keep on coming in. He uses Karabakh as a political tool, to rile up nationalists, in the end he's just making sure the money's flowing in. That's all that matters.

[Nairi]

I think you should realise how little people care about that statement by a fringer. When Armenia falls, Armenia falls. The world wouldn't care (apart from the Armenian lobbyists abroad - they would care) and just move on.

Yes, Civis, thank you for repeating it over and over. But can we please have our thread back to let other users raise their opinion?

[Nairi]

No it's about Azerbaijan attacking NKR. Why would Armenia attack Azerbaijan? lol

Again, the West is holding Aliyev on a leash not to attack, because they don't want their economic interests fucked up because of a war. Though Aliyev himself is not too crazy about attacking because he wants the oil to keep on flowing and investments to keep on coming in. He uses Karabakh as a political tool, to rile up nationalists, in the end he's just making sure the money's flowing in. That's all that matters.

Mosov!

Stop feeding our personal troll,please...

[The Lawspeaker]

No it's about Azerbaijan attacking NKR. Why would Armenia attack Azerbaijan? lol
If Armenia would see the "need" to intervene in NKR and blow up a couple of pipelines in Azerbaijan as Nairi already suggested. That's when you would see trouble.


Again, the West is holding Aliyev on a leash not to attack, because they don't want their economic interests fucked up because of a war. Though Aliyev himself is not too crazy about attacking because he wants the oil to keep on flowing and investments to keep on coming in. He uses Karabakh as a political tool, to rile up nationalists, in the end he's just making sure the money's flowing in. That's all that matters.
That makes him a very clever man then.

[Nairi]

If Armenia would see the "need" to intervene in NKR and blow up a couple of pipelines in Azerbaijan as Nairi already suggested. That's when you would see trouble.




Yes, Armenian army is doing everything what Nairi suggests.

And Nairi meant Armenian army of Artsakh, they have the right to defend themselves the way they see it fit.

Can you allow others post as well or you intend to post the same BS over and over?

[The Lawspeaker]

And Nairi meant Armeniah army of Artsakh, they have the right to defend themselves the way they see it fit.

That's basically the same thing anyway. Your countries' little puppet regime. :thumb001:

[Nairi]

That's basically the same thing anyway. Your countries' little puppet regime. :thumb001:

Yes, Civis, Armenians of Artsakh are our little puppets, you have won argument!
:thumb001:

[Mosov]

If Armenia would see the "need" to intervene in NKR and blow up a couple of pipelines in Azerbaijan as Nairi already suggested. That's when you would see trouble.

Again, you seem to have a difficulty with causation. It's Azerbaijan attacking NKR and starting the whole war and all the collateral damage that goes with it. Azerbaijan is condemned for starting the war in the first place and making the whole region unstable.


That makes him a very clever man then.


Yep, he's very clever, he buys his son (12 years old) 44 million dollar property in Dubai while his people are struggling.

[Nairi]

Again, you seem to have a difficulty with causation. It's Azerbaijan attacking NKR and starting the whole war and all the collateral damage that goes with it. Azerbaijan is condemned for starting the war in the first place and making the whole region unstable.



Yep, he's very clever, he buys his son (12 years old) 44 million dollar property in Dubai while his people are struggling.

Jeeses Christ, Mosov! Can you stop feeding obvious troll,please???

Let him win argument, let his ego win, that is all what matters to him, if you say white is white and black is black he will argue until he proves white is black.

Nuin ban@ kareli a urishneri a qnarkel normal dzevov...

[The Lawspeaker]

Again, you seem to have a difficulty with causation. It's Azerbaijan attacking NKR and starting the whole war and all the collateral damage that goes with it. Azerbaijan is condemned for starting the war in the first place and making the whole region unstable.
You got to love your Armenian lobby for talking things straight that aren't. You do realise that NKR is in Azerbaijan and surrounded by it ?




Yep, he's very clever, he buys his son (12 years old) 44 million dollar property in Dubai while his people are struggling.
And that's our problem.. how ?

[Osweo]

Go to bed, Civis, for Fuck's sake. :tsk:

[Nairi]

Again, you seem to have a difficulty with causation. It's Azerbaijan attacking NKR and starting the whole war and all the collateral damage that goes with it. Azerbaijan is condemned for starting the war in the first place and making the whole region unstable.



Yep, he's very clever, he buys his son (12 years old) 44 million dollar property in Dubai while his people are struggling.

Azerbaijan started war 17 years ago and we took our Artsakh back.
If they want to start another warr we ill take our Nakchichevan back and free caucasians they occupy.

[Teyrn]

Armenians have been Christians since this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiridates_III_of_Armenia

[Sarmatian]

Which would indeed prompt Europe and Russia into action. Against Armenia because that would be considered an attack on our strategic interests. Now that would be cutting your own fingers. I can read the headlines already:

Armenian terrorists have blown up pipe line in Azerbaijan.

And then they become more dramatic. About slaughters here and there by Armenian terrorists.

A couple of weeks later: fighter aircraft fly over Yerevan bombing the fuck of your government headquarters. Not just Turkish fighters but probably French or Italian or German. We know how it works.

I think you missing the point.

Azerbaijan is supplier of oil and gas to Europe. Its their part of the deal to sustain a stable oil flow. But it doesn't make them politically invincible. If they are unable to build safe for business environment then their government will be changed (by force if needed).

Its pure business. If you taking some obligations and later compromising the deal by just being cocky to some third party then you are not good for business and should be replaced.

If Azeris government think that making an important deals with EU give them some sort of protectorate status they are asking for a big nasty slap in their face. And Russia will be the first in the queue with its big furry paw.
http://i.imgur.com/6NDKc.jpg
I don't think anyone in Europe seriously care about local Azeri's ambitions.

Thank to God, Armenia has nothing interesting for Europe including territory of Karabakh. So there is no reason to take any actions against them.

[Mosov]

Jeeses Christ, Mosov! Can you stop feeding obvious troll,please???

Let him win argument, let his ego win, that is all what matters to him, if you say white is white and black is black he will argue until he proves white is black.

Nuin ban@ kareli a urishneri a qnarkel normal dzevov...

It's funny to read when he's grasping for straws to keep the argument going :p


You got to love your Armenian lobby for talking things straight that aren't. You do realise that NKR is in Azerbaijan and surrounded by it ?

Look at a map.



And that's our problem.. how ?

You're the one that said he's very clever. I'm just showing an example of his cleverness. I mean buying a 44 million dollar property for his 12 year old son was a great and clever decision!

[Romanion]

Civis thinks he represents all of the Netherlands and the EU when he posts in this forum. Where he gets this inflated sence of worth, anyone can guess :confused:

[The Lawspeaker]

Look at a map.
I have and that's why I say it. It's Azerbaijan. Plain and simple.





You're the one that said he's very clever. I'm just showing an example of his cleverness. I mean buying a 44 million dollar property for his 12 year old son was a great and clever decision!
A good investment for the future.

[Nairi]

It's funny to read when he's grasping for straws to keep the argument going :p



Look at a map.




You're the one that said he's very clever. I'm just showing an example of his cleverness. I mean buying a 44 million dollar property for his 12 year old son was a great and clever decision!

He is deliberately saying the same stupid things over and over and you keep on taking his bait over and over.

I opened this thread to know other members' opinion but because Civis-Mosov fight the topic is derailed, he will never stop, verghacru ira het krveln, da aveli vat tesq uni.

[Nairi]

Civis thinks he represents all of the Netherlands and the EU when he posts in this forum. Where he gets this inflated sence of worth, anyone can guess :confused:

:thumb001: :D

He is online literally 24/7, he doesn't go out, lost sense of reality.

We don't take his opinion as "Dutch" opinion. :wink

[The Lawspeaker]

He is deliberately saying the same stupid things over and over and you keep on taking his bait over and over.

I opened this thread to know other members' opinion but because Civis-Mosov fight the topic is derailed, he will never stop, verghacru ira het krveln, da aveli vat tesq uni.
http://eurodialogue.org/files/fckeditor_files/nagorno-karabakh-map.gif

Nothing but Azerbaijan around it.

[Nairi]

http://eurodialogue.org/files/fckeditor_files/nagorno-karabakh-map.gif

Nothing but Azerbaijan around it.

It has nothing to do with my commet to him. Any time I make comment to anyone, you jump to reply to it.

Yes, Civis, anything you say is an absolute truth. :thumb001:

[Nairi]

Just for others to know, that Lachin which connects Armenia and Artsakh is controlled by Artsakh army.

[Mosov]

http://eurodialogue.org/files/fckeditor_files/nagorno-karabakh-map.gif

Nothing but Azerbaijan around it.

lol, can't even post a correct map.

Here's the actual one:

http://www.funtour.am/images/map2.jpg

[The Lawspeaker]

----

So Armenia is interested in an area that it has no borders with. Just because it has some Armenians living there. Surrounded by Azeri's.

[The Lawspeaker]

lol, can't even post a correct map.

Here's the actual one:

http://www.funtour.am/images/map2.jpg
According to the Armenians.

[Nairi]

lol, can't even post a correct map.

Here's the actual one:

http://www.funtour.am/images/map2.jpg

Yes, this is correct map according to the constitution of Artsakh. And Azeris are still occupying 25% of Artsakh which includes territories in Shahumian, Getashen, Martakert and Martuni.

[Loki]

Political reality: no one gives a fuck. This however would make politicians here stop yawning:

http://asbarez.com/App/Asbarez/eng/2010/03/8FDC6ACC-7749-4311-B185-DFF57109E84D_mw800_mh600.jpg

http://neftegaz.ru/images/Neft%20Perey/Azerbaijan%20refinery.jpg

And what country has that ? Not Armenia. No.. that's Azerbaijan.

Unfortunately for them, very obvious, static and visible targets during wartime.

[The Lawspeaker]

And if the Armenians attack that. We all know what the Daily Fail will say and the Times, Algemeen Dagblad. A couple of weeks later Europe and the U.S start pushing for regime change in Yerevan.

[Padre Organtino]

Duh, Armenians won't start offensive against Azerbaidjan. They already have the territory they desire.

[Hayalet]

According to the Armenians.
Actually, it seems, not even according to them:


From the standpoint of the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, the security belt is territory of Azerbaijan temporarily controlled by the Nagorno-Karabakh Defense Army until the receipt of security guarantees for the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic and the establishment of control over the whole of the territory declared by Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, with the exception of the Lachin corridor linking Nagorno-Karabakh Republic with Armenia (which the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic has stated it does not intend to return because of its strategic importance)