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View Full Version : Proving you're gay to the Turkish army



Loki
03-26-2012, 08:04 AM
Proving you're gay to the Turkish army (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17474967)

By Emre Azizlerli
BBC World Service

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/59272000/jpg/_59272248_soldier_afp464.jpg

Military service is mandatory for all Turkish men - they can only escape it if they are ill, disabled or homosexual. But proving homosexuality is a humiliating ordeal.

''They asked me when I first had anal intercourse, oral sex, what sort of toys I played with as a child..."

Ahmet, a young man in his 20s, told officials he was gay at the first opportunity after he was called up, as he and other conscripts underwent a health check.

"They asked me if I liked football, whether I wore woman's clothes or used woman's perfume," he says.

''I had a few days' beard and I am a masculine guy - they told me I didn't look like a normal gay man.''

He was then asked to provide a picture of himself dressed as a woman.

''I refused this request,'' he says. ''But I made them another offer, which they accepted.'' Instead he gave them a photograph of himself kissing another man.

Ahmet hopes this will give him what he needs - a "pink certificate", which will declare him homosexual and therefore exempt from military service.

Over the years, gay life has been becoming more visible in Turkey's big cities. Cafes and clubs with an openly gay clientele have been opening in Istanbul, and last summer's gay pride march - unique in the Muslim world - was the largest ever.

But while there are no specific laws against homosexuality in Turkey, openly gay men are not welcome in the army. At the same time, they have to "prove" their homosexuality in order to avoid military service.

Gokhan, conscripted in the late 1990s, very quickly realised that he was not made for the army.

''I had a fear of guns,'' he reminisces

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/59249000/jpg/_59249170_gay_pride_getty.jpg

Last summer's gay pride march in Istanbul was the largest ever held in Turkey

As a gay man he was also afraid of being bullied, and after little more than a week he plucked up the courage to declare his sexual orientation to his commander.

''They asked me if I had any photographs.'' Gokhan says, ''And I did.''

He had gone prepared with explicit photographs of himself having sexual intercourse with another man, having heard that it would be impossible to get out of military service without them.

''The face must be visible,'' says Gokhan. ''And the photos must show you as the passive partner.''

The photographs satisfied the military doctors. Gokhan was handed his pink certificate and exempted from military service. But it was a terrible experience, he says,

''And it's still terrible. Because somebody holds those photographs. They can show them at my village, to my parents, my relatives.''

The army denies that it keeps the photographs, but gay men say photographic evidence of one kind or another is still demanded, the precise nature depending on the whim of the commander.

The Turkish army refused BBC requests for an interview, but a retired general, Armagan Kuloglu, agreed to comment.

Openly gay men in the army would cause "disciplinary problems", he says, and would be impractical creating the need for "separate facilities, separate dormitories, showers, training areas".

He says that if a gay man keeps his sexuality secret, he can serve - an echo of the US military's recently dropped Don't Ask Don't Tell policy.

"But when someone comes out and says he is gay, then the army needs to make sure that he is truly gay, and not simply lying to evade his mandatory duty to serve in the military.''

The social stigma associated with homosexuality in Turkey is such that outside the young and urbanised circles in big cities like Istanbul and Ankara, it is hard to imagine a man declaring that he's gay when he's not.

However, the possibility causes the military a lot of anxiety.

"Doctors are coming under immense pressure from their commanders to diagnose homosexuality, and they obey, even though there really are no diagnostic tools to determine sexual orientation,'' says one psychiatrist who formerly worked at a military hospital.

''It is medically impossible, and not at all ethical."

On Gokhan's pink certificate, his status reads: ''psychosexual disorder''. And next to that, in brackets, ''homosexuality''.

Turkey's military hospitals still define homosexuality as an illness, taking a 1968 version of a document by the American Psychiatric Association as their guide.

Some people in Turkey say with resentment that gay men are actually lucky, as at least they have one possible route out of military service - they don't have to spend months in the barracks, or face the possibility of being deployed to fight against Kurdish militants.

But for openly gay men, life can be far from easy.

It is not uncommon for employers in Turkey to question job applicants about their military service - and a pink certificate can mean a job rejection.

One of Gokhan's employers found out about it not by asking Gokhan himself but by asking the army.

After that, he says, he was bullied. His co-workers made derogatory comments as he walked past, others refused to talk to him.

''But I am not ashamed. It is not my shame," he says.

Ahmet is still waiting for his case to be resolved. The army has postponed its decision on his pink certificate for another year.

Ahmet thinks it is because he refused to appear before them in woman's clothes. And he doesn't know what to expect when he appears in front of them again.

Could he not just do his military service and keep his homosexuality a secret? ''No,'' says Ahmet, firmly.

''I am against the whole military system. If I have to fulfil a duty for this nation, they should give me a non-military choice.''

Some names have been changed to protect the identity of interviewees. Emre Azizlerli's documentary The Pink Certificate will be broadcast on BBC World Service on 26 March 2011.

The Lawspeaker
03-26-2012, 08:14 AM
At least the Turks don't fuck around when it comes to such stuff. No "don't ask don't tell" - rubbish and poofs in the military there. The only reason why we should allow for it now (and don't go back to pre-1974) is because of the fact that we have a small army as it is but if there would be a normal man or woman to take over for that homosexual then we should definitely accept them as a replacement.

When it comes to any veterans: let them stay on for a while to train their own replacements and then provide them with an honourable discharge.

Riki
03-26-2012, 08:34 AM
'And the photos must show you as the passive partner.''

In my Country both Active and Passive are considered Gay.

Il Principe
03-26-2012, 08:57 AM
Turks are known for their combination of extreme homophobia and morbid fixation with anal rape. This is not news. It's a bizarre sexual tendency that exists all over the entire Middle-East, where a straight man "proves" his manliness by fucking another man. Prison rules, basically. I can only guess that it's biological in nature, that certain races are predisposed to faggotry and "prison sexuality" without actually being in prison.

Turks are the most infamous for this Asiatic anal fixation, because Europeans most often came into contact with them, but it's a pan-MENA phenomenon. I'd say Arabs are even worse than Turks in this. (I am openly gay, and as such, several "straight" MENA immigrants have hit on me. I rejected them all, but that goes without saying.)


''The face must be visible,'' says Gokhan. ''And the photos must show you as the passive partner.''
Indeed, to the West Asiatic mind, the pitcher is not gay. Also, I suspect that the Turk wanted to keep these photos for later personal use.

One could write pages and pages about the pathological MENA sexuality, but I'll refrain from it.

Loki
03-26-2012, 09:30 AM
Turks are known for their combination of extreme homophobia and morbid fixation with anal rape. This is not news. It's a bizarre sexual tendency that exists all over the entire Middle-East, where a straight man "proves" his manliness by fucking another man. Prison rules, basically. I can only guess that it's biological in nature, that certain races are predisposed to faggotry and "prison sexuality" without actually being in prison.

Turks are the most infamous for this Asiatic anal fixation, because Europeans most often came into contact with them, but it's a pan-MENA phenomenon. I'd say Arabs are even worse than Turks in this. (I am openly gay, and as such, several "straight" MENA immigrants have hit on me. I rejected them all, but that goes without saying.)


Indeed, to the West Asiatic mind, the pitcher is not gay. Also, I suspect that the Turk wanted to keep these photos for later personal use.

One could write pages and pages about the pathological MENA sexuality, but I'll refrain from it.

It could be that the military commanders get off on those pics ..

Hayalet
03-26-2012, 09:51 AM
Indeed, to the West Asiatic mind, the pitcher is not gay.
No, it's not that the active aren't considered homosexual. But they would be associated with "dominance" (≠ manliness), thus less likely to receive abuse in general. For example, some otherwise straight men can be expected to fake active homosexuality to be exempt from military service, but not the passive kind. Anyhow, the picture thing is more of a practical solution than an official policy.

Riki
03-26-2012, 02:00 PM
No, it's not that the active aren't considered homosexual. But they would be associated with "dominance" (≠ manliness), thus less likely to receive abuse in general. For example, some otherwise straight men can be expected to fake active homosexuality to be exempt from military service, but not the passive kind. Anyhow, the picture thing is more of a practical solution than an official policy.


Hehehe.There's nothing Manly about a Men's ball's touching each other's balls,men.Come on.

The thought alone is disturbing.

Hurrem sultana
03-26-2012, 02:09 PM
at least they don't kill them :D

Fortis in Arduis
03-26-2012, 02:46 PM
At least the Turks don't fuck around when it comes to such stuff. No "don't ask don't tell" - rubbish and poofs in the military there. The only reason why we should allow for it now (and don't go back to pre-1974) is because of the fact that we have a small army as it is but if there would be a normal man or woman to take over for that homosexual then we should definitely accept them as a replacement.

When it comes to any veterans: let them stay on for a while to train their own replacements and then provide them with an honourable discharge.

No, what the Turks are running precisely a system of "don't ask, don't tell", and it's causing problems and allowing gay men, or straight dodgers who pretend to be gay to dodge military service, which everyone else has to do, and that's not fair.

Anarch
04-04-2012, 11:55 AM
Gokhan, conscripted in the late 1990s, very quickly realised that he was not made for the army.

''I had a fear of guns,'' he reminisces

I would consider him gay on those grounds alone. A rifle is just a tool. A tool with a rather specific purpose, but it's a tool. It's the man behind it that's truly dangerous.

Profileid
08-02-2015, 04:48 PM
bump.

Charles Bronson
08-02-2015, 05:15 PM
bump.

You fucking bitch, you reading my thread and bumping this thread you sneaky.

sql
08-02-2015, 05:19 PM
I wonder how many people pretend to be gay to get out of it. This whole article seems like a joke :lol:

Watch_Owl
08-02-2015, 07:37 PM
I wonder how many people pretend to be gay to get out of it. This whole article seems like a joke :lol:

How many straight people are willing to have sex with a male? I also agree that this is unreliable way of testing people.

sql
08-02-2015, 07:40 PM
How many straight people are willing to have sex with a male? I also agree that this is unreliable way of testing people.

You'd be surprised at the lengths some people would go to get what they want. I've even heard about straight men starring in gay porn, because it pays better.

Dr. Klaus Klausofsten
08-02-2015, 08:20 PM
Most Turks are gay or gay-leaning.

Deneb
08-02-2015, 08:24 PM
Spain was like Turkey 20 years ago.

Peter Nirsch
08-02-2015, 08:26 PM
As I said several times, Turkey should aim for being annexed to Iran or Saudi Arabia, I'd like to know who had that insane idea to propose such country to the EU.

Fortis in Arduis
08-02-2015, 09:07 PM
What if you are homosexual, celibate, and unable to provide a photograph of yourself as an anal penetration bottom with face attached?

Also, what is this imagined necessity for separate facilities? Men require work and facilities to suit their sex and their capabilities, not their sexuality, unless their employment is of a sexual nature, so what is the Turkish army?

What a load of nonsense! Homophobia is real, but that fear has an imaginary basis.

Halgurd
08-03-2015, 07:31 AM
:lol:

Hydromorphone
08-03-2015, 07:46 AM
Obviously not everybody is able to provide photographic evidence of their sodomy. What the Turkish army should do is draft a couple of gays to accompany these doctors, so when they test people, they can just say "Here's the resident homo, get plowed for me please". Obviously if they refuse they should be sent to the front lines for trying to sneak out of service. It lets gays who want to serve provide a valuable service to their country by proving who is straight and who is gay by fucking them, and it keeps people from evading the draft. It's literally a win-win scenario.

Halgurd
08-03-2015, 08:01 AM
I would consider him gay on those grounds alone. A rifle is just a tool. A tool with a rather specific purpose, but it's a tool. It's the man behind it that's truly dangerous.

:lol: