Dutch directness

[The Lawspeaker]

Say what you think but think about how you say it



Social conventions serve to express respect for others. It wouldn't hurt for the Dutch to be reminded of this.



OPINION
By Christoph Driessen




http://www.nrc.nl/multimedia/dynamic/00240/ENG-rude_240618d.jpg

Illustration Rhonald Blommestijn






Are the Dutch rude? For me, as a German, it would be impolite to answer this question with a yes. Let me just say: the Dutch are direct – much more direct than other people.

Besides Germany, I have also lived for several years in the Netherlands, the UK and the United States, but only in the Netherlands has a friend phoned me up on my birthday to say that she simply did not feel like coming to my party, and that she would rather go for a walk in the dunes. In Germany, and certainly in the US - not to mention England - the friend would certainly have resorted to a white lie in this case. The Dutch however believe you must never lie to your friends, that it is always best to tell them what you think clearly and directly.

When I went to England after six years in the Netherlands, I had to get used to the fact that you never just tell someone what you think there. In the beginning I did not always understand exactly what the English were trying to say. "That’s an unusual outfit" did not mean, "Those clothes are very unique," but rather, "You look ridiculous!" And, "That's an interesting thought," is just a polite way of saying, "That makes no sense all."

Even tourists notice that people are much more polite on the London Underground than on a tram in Amsterdam. If you step on a British person's toes, to your amazement he will say, "Sorry." And the way English people queue up is another matter altogether.

Group behaviour
According to professors of anthropology Joseph Henrich and Robert Boyd, this "voluntary interaction with complete strangers" is the "highest form of cooperative group behaviour." The real queuing up is an art in itself. Observing the right distance between you and the person in front of you requires precision - as a rule of thumb, the Guardian once advised that you leave the same amount of room you would "when dancing with old aunt Hildegaard."

Such niceties are generally alien to the Dutch person. His basic attitude with respect to matters of politeness is rooted deep in Dutch history, or rather, in Calvinism and the republican form of government of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. Calvinists are concerned with the essence of things, with what is really important – all the rest is pointless ballast which distracts from the essential. That is why courtesy is easily seen as insincerity in the Netherlands.

The republican form of government likewise facilitated extremely direct and uncomplicated manners. In other countries etiquette was primarily developed for the aristocracy. The German word for politeness, Höflichkeit, contains the world 'Hof', meaning court, as in the 'royal court.' For a long time the court of Versailles set the tone in matters of etiquette.
In English class society as well good manners were perfected by the upper echelons; they also served to screen them off from the lower classes. Mats Deutschmann, a Swedish anglo-expert, concluded in a 2003 study on English courtesy (Apologizing in British English) that those who often say sorry, pardon and excuse me underline their social position, refinement and high class in doing so. "It is primarily the powerful who excuse themselves to the powerless," Deutschmann says.

Seen in this light, in essence good English manners would be nothing other than manipulation. In contrast, an authoritarian military state like Prussia bore the stamp of obedience rather than courtesy; social life was subject to a strict hierarchy. Those times are long gone, but to this day directors of companies in Germany are treated with the kind of obeisance that would be inconceivable in the Netherlands.

'Unpalatable insults'
The Netherlands has an entirely different tradition than Germany, the UK, France or Spain. Already in the seventeenth century foreign visitors noticed that in this remarkable "people's republic," ranks and classes had been eliminated and everyone was treated equally.

Of course that was an exaggeration – a small elite group of citizens were in charge in the republic - but it was difficult for someone who was used to an absolute monarchy at home to get a different impression. A Frenchman reported for instance: "It is not at all unusual to hear a beggar, a bum, call out in an exchange of words with a respectable citizen, 'You may be richer than me, but you're no better,' and other such unpalatable insults."

Johan de Witt, the grand pensionary [the highest-ranking official in the Dutch Republic, Ed.], was occasionally powerful enough to foil Louis XIV's plans, but on the street he was indistinguishable from an ordinary citizen. When, on the occasion of an inspection of the war fleet, he decided as an exception not to dress in the customary black but in a garment decorated with gold and silver frills, he was not received with respect but with laughter.

Even his own secretary only removed his hat with the greatest reluctance when he spoke with De Witt. Later the man let secret documents fall into the hands of De Witt's enemies, arguing that his boss had dealt him a deadly insult by insisting that he remove his hat for him.
Nor did a courtly culture ever develop in the nineteenth century kingdom. The Netherlands remained a country of peddlers, a nation of surly merchants without a distinguished upper echelon.

In the nineteen sixties, students and other young people in many countries mounted the barricades to dislodge the authority of their parents, the church and the government. In a country like Germany that had a beneficial effect. Since that movement you can breathe more freely in Germany and society has become more democratic and humane. Outmoded etiquette was scrapped.

From my own experience - I was born in 1967 - I still had to make a deep bow when the priest came to visit my Catholic primary school, for example. The girls had to curtsy. I am glad my children no longer have to do that.

'I say what I think'
In the Netherlands as well, few people look back fondly on the post-war society, strictly organised along denominational lines. Still, on the whole, the effect of the sixties here was not entirely positive, in my opinion. After all, the Netherlands did not have a heavy authoritative tradition from which people had to liberate themselves.

Instead values like respect, consideration and self control were discredited across the line. In the nineties [the populist politician] Pim Fortuyn reinforced that trend with his motto, "I say what I think."

"I say what I think" – and bugger anyone who thinks differently - sums the Dutch attitude up nicely for me. Of course everyone should be able to say what they think, but it matters how you say it. Courtesy is also the art of making unpleasant things clear to others in a pleasant manner.
Outward forms of courtesy and social conventions should never be a goal in themselves of course, but serve as an expression of respect for others. It would certainly do no harm for people to be taught that a bit more at home and at school.

Since outward forms have become a habit, I don't need to consider every time whether I should actually stand up and offer my seat to the old lady on the bus. When offering your seat has become automatic, it makes your life easier.

Is that un-Dutch? No, because it is certainly not the case that you only come across rude people in the Netherlands.
I’ve said a great deal here about English courtesy, but in the explicit class society this can also be condescending and accompanied by an icy aloofness. You are certainly not likely to experience that in the Netherlands, where the level landscape traditionally extends into social life.
When the Dutch are friendly, it usually really comes from the heart, and that is the best form of courtesy.








Discussion - Dutch people: direct or just plain rude? (http://weblogs.nrc.nl/weblog/discussion/2009/08/04/dutch-people-direct-or-just-plain-rude/)
Opinion - It's not us, it's the others (http://www.nrc.nl/international/article2319424.ece/Its_not_us%2C_its_the_others)


Source (http://www.nrc.nl/international/article2319092.ece/Say_what_you_think_but_think_about_how_you_say_it) (via Skadi as I nicked it there).

[lei.talk]

Courtesy is also the art of making unpleasant things clear to others in a pleasant manner.

Outward forms of courtesy and social conventions should never be a goal in themselves of course, but serve as an expression of respect for others. It would certainly do no harm for people to be taught that a bit more at home and at school.

Since outward forms have become a habit, I don't need to consider every time whether I should actually stand up and offer my seat to the old lady on the bus. When offering your seat has become automatic,
it makes your life easier.

[HawkR]

Luckily, there are still some countries where people are direct and say what they mean when they mean it. Here in Norway, one cannot say what one means. You'll have to twist and turn it so that no one actually know what the fuck you're talking about. This makes me look rude, as I have a tendency to say thing the way they are, and I don't care who's around. Example: I say whatever I want about immigrants, while listening to my friends go "Hush, hush" because there are some of them close. Dissapointing.

[Lulletje Rozewater]

I have not found any rudeness in Dutch people.
Two faced ----yes(meek in their own country and very boisterous and loud and colour blind outside their country.
Certain parts of The Netherlands are very liberal and have no qualms to bed a stranger after 6 drinks.(doubles). Have never met the expression"Going Dutch"
Tipping for good service is not always there.
The allochtonen are off-putting.
What to me was extremely annoying is the remark:"Dat mag hier niet or dat kan je hier niet maken.

[The Lawspeaker]

A side street but perhaps typical is the way in which we used to address people according to their profession. If someone was a full member of the guilds we would use the term "meester" to address him- later on it was used to address a male teacher- where as "juffrouw" was used to adress a female teacher (a sign of gender discrimination perhaps as "juffrouw" means "Miss".)

For instance if Jan Jansen was a master carpenter and a full member of the guild he would have been addressed as Meester Jansen. In roughly we same way we still address for instance a doctor and used to address a police officer or a vicar etc. And I actually think that things like "mijnheer" (abbreviated to "meneer" and "mevrouw" (sir or more literal My Lord and ma'am) just create unnecessary distance.

[Loki]

Members are often unable to understand people like Civis Batavi, but directness = openness = honesty = no secrets = comfort :)

Dutch manner of speaking (http://www.inholland.nl/inhollandcom/studying%20at%20inholland/living%20in%20the%20netherlands/the%20dutch%20lifestyle/the%20dutch%20lifestyle.htm)

Despite being basically reserved, the Dutch have a manner of speaking that may startle you with its directness. They look you straight in the eye and can sound very abrupt, especially when they are speaking English or another foreign language and cannot express all the shades of meaning they would be able to express in their own language. They do not mean to be impolite, and their habit of coming to the point quickly can actually make things easier for the foreigner.

The Dutch are seldom deferential in their speech simply on the basis of the other person’s age or station in life. Younger people, in particular, say what they think without cloaking their words in a mantle of respect. If you could understand Dutch, you would probably be astonished to hear how the prime minister is interviewed for television every week. The interviewer addresses him as an equal, posing direct, tough questions, which are often answered with equal directness.

The Dutch avoid superlatives and tend to be negative, even about themselves. Compliments are offered sparingly, and to say that something is ‘not bad’ is to praise it. For the foreigner, this has the advantage that you do not need to worry too much about saying something that will hurt people’s feelings. The Dutch will argue, but seldom take offence.

Their idea of a good time is expressed in the word ‘gezellig’. This describes a feeling of warm, relaxed congeniality. People are valued for being themselves and not putting on airs.

[curiousman]

I find Germans very direct too, maybe it is a Germanic thing.

[Libertas]

I find Germans very direct too, maybe it is a Germanic thing.

The English are not that direct, though.

[derLowe]

Some Afrikaans people I met are like this.

[Padre Organtino]

I imagine that Afrikaners should be even more straightfroward than Dutch. Is this true?

[derLowe]

I imagine that Afrikaners should be even more straightfroward than Dutch. Is this true?

That I cant answer because I have not met many Dutch people in person so I cannot provide a fair comparison.

[Susi]

The English are not that direct, though.


http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_luhn1bIUcp1qbbhtyo1_500.jpg

:D

[Libertas]

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_luhn1bIUcp1qbbhtyo1_500.jpg

:D

The association of the English with hypocrisy does have a long history.:p

[Grumpy Cat]

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_luhn1bIUcp1qbbhtyo1_500.jpg

:D

:lol:

[Loki]

I find Germans very direct too, maybe it is a Germanic thing.

Nope, the Dutch are way more direct IMO.

As for Afrikaners, they are definitely not as direct as the Dutch - we often get startled when having a conversation with them. Perhaps it's all those centuries of British cultural investment.

And no, the English are actually the opposite. You can never trust their word, until you've known them for quite some time. They'd tell you nice things to make you feel comfortable ... but be always armed with a good dose of skepticism in your dealings with them ;)

[Sikeliot]

Directness is a good thing. Some may interpret it as rude, but I myself (although not Dutch) am very direct :)

[Europa]

I personally haven't noticed that in Dutch,but in Germans yes.

[The Lawspeaker]

And no, the English are actually the opposite. You can never trust their word, until you've known them for quite some time. They'd tell you nice things to make you feel comfortable ... but be always armed with a good dose of skepticism in your dealings with them ;)
I hear ya lol. Mooi praten maar ondertussen.... Het zijn een stel rasechte achterbakse hypocrieten. :D

[Amapola]

I have seen this in Germans, especially. I like it, it's true in Italians and Spaniard too. That's why we are rude or considered rude by other Europeans, I suppose.

[Loki]

Directness is a good thing. Some may interpret it as rude, but I myself (although not Dutch) am very direct :)

Absolutely. You know where you stand with them right off the bat.

[The Lawspeaker]

I think that directness and no-nonsense speech is the hallmark of a free, open and egalitarian society. There is no beating around the bush here and you're expected to say what's on your mind with few reservations and beating around the bush is considered rude, hypocritical.. as if you have secrets.

[Grumpy Cat]

I need to move to the Netherlands. This is one thing I HATE about my own countrymen, especially the English-speaking majority. It makes me paranoid, distrustful of people, and causes me a great deal of anxiety and depression.

[The Lawspeaker]

I need to move to the Netherlands. This is one thing I HATE about my countrymen, especially the English-speaking majority. It makes me paranoid and causes me a great deal of anxiety.
Remember that I told you that that I felt a bit sceptical of the true intentions of people when I was in England ? :D

[Grumpy Cat]

Remember that I told you that that I felt a bit sceptical of the true intentions of people when I was in England ? :D

Well, I work with people from England and they complain about the lack of directness of Canadians. They said they get along with Americans better than Canadians because they are more direct.

I get along with Americans better, too.

Growing up in Canada, I assume everyone acts like Canadians and I guess this hinders my socialization, even online.

[Odoacer]

Dutch straightforwardness may have something to do with the English phrase, "Dutch uncle" - a person who criticizes or reproves with unsparing severity and frankness. ;)

[The Lawspeaker]

Well, I work with people from England and they complain about the lack of directness of Canadians. They said they get along with Americans better than Canadians because they are more direct.

Growing up in Canada, I assume everyone acts like Canadians and I guess this hinders my socialization, even online.
If even English are more direct then Canadians.. then I would never be able to relate to most Canadians lol. Because you never know what's behind the façade and that's something I could never appreciate lol.


Dutch straightforwardness may have something to do with the English phrase, "Dutch uncle" - a person who criticizes or reproves with unsparing severity and frankness. ;)

Exactly ! :thumb001:

That's one thing I like about Australians: they say exactly what they feel and in the roughest way possible.

[brunette]

European guys dress different to English guys too i've noticed that. It's real easy to spot a German or Dutch from a English due to the clothing.

[The Lawspeaker]

European guys dress different to English guys too i've noticed that. It's real easy to spot a German or Dutch from a English due to the clothing.
It is said that Dutch have no sense for style (and that is.. when you compare us to the French or the Italians or the Austrians or even our own Southerners (Belgium) certainly true) but I have never met people that were dressed worse then in England. Although it could have to do with location, social class and thus income.

[Grumpy Cat]

If even English are more direct then Canadians.. then I would never be able to relate to most Canadians lol. Because you never know what's behind the façade and that's something I could never appreciate lol.

That's one thing I like about Australians: they say exactly what they feel and in the roughest way possible.

Well Canadians have a reputation of being polite and such but their thoughts can be otherwise. Canadians won't often say how they feel for fear of being rude. They will even go to work sick, or go out sick, and give their nasty germs to you because they think it's rude to say "no I can't go out".

I don't trust overly polite people for this reason. I have been burned. And I assume EVERYONE is thinking bad thoughts of me.

[Virtuous]

Members are often unable to understand people like Civis Batavi, but directness = openness = honesty = no secrets = comfort :)

Dutch manner of speaking (http://www.inholland.nl/inhollandcom/studying%20at%20inholland/living%20in%20the%20netherlands/the%20dutch%20lifestyle/the%20dutch%20lifestyle.htm)

Despite being basically reserved, the Dutch have a manner of speaking that may startle you with its directness. They look you straight in the eye and can sound very abrupt, especially when they are speaking English or another foreign language and cannot express all the shades of meaning they would be able to express in their own language. They do not mean to be impolite, and their habit of coming to the point quickly can actually make things easier for the foreigner.

The Dutch are seldom deferential in their speech simply on the basis of the other person’s age or station in life. Younger people, in particular, say what they think without cloaking their words in a mantle of respect. If you could understand Dutch, you would probably be astonished to hear how the prime minister is interviewed for television every week. The interviewer addresses him as an equal, posing direct, tough questions, which are often answered with equal directness.

The Dutch avoid superlatives and tend to be negative, even about themselves. Compliments are offered sparingly, and to say that something is ‘not bad’ is to praise it. For the foreigner, this has the advantage that you do not need to worry too much about saying something that will hurt people’s feelings. The Dutch will argue, but seldom take offence.

Their idea of a good time is expressed in the word ‘gezellig’. This describes a feeling of warm, relaxed congeniality. People are valued for being themselves and not putting on airs.

It's true cause I met several Dutch people on some online games I used to play and I noticed that type of mentality.

[brunette]

It is said that Dutch have no sense for style (and that is.. when you compare us to the French or the Italians or the Austrians or even our own Southerners (Belgium) certainly true) but I have never met people that were dressed worse then in England. Although it could have to do with location, social class and thus income.

That's true, the low class here look low class. Not here meaning Chatham but in general. Take Brazil or whatever there is clear differences in race and social status there but they all dress the same.

[Padre Organtino]

I am Kakhetian (Easternest part of Georgia) and apart from being known as semi-Iranian winemakers Kakhetians are also famous for their supposed "rudeness" which simply means that my folks tend to be open and straightforward (and like to swear a lot:D).

[Treffie]

And no, the English are actually the opposite. You can never trust their word, until you've known them for quite some time. They'd tell you nice things to make you feel comfortable ... but be always armed with a good dose of skepticism in your dealings with them ;)

That would depend on what part of England they come from. Notherners are much more straight talking than their southern counterparts. Quite similar to Scots and Welsh in that respect.

[jerney]

That would depend on what part of England they come from. Notherners are much more straight talking than their southern counterparts. Quite similar to Scots and Welsh in that respect.

I have to disagree with him anyway. He's obviously not familiar with the fashion sense of many Slavs and Balkans because I really doubt anyone in the UK could compete with them

[rhiannon]

Members are often unable to understand people like Civis Batavi, but directness = openness = honesty = no secrets = comfort :)

Dutch manner of speaking (http://www.inholland.nl/inhollandcom/studying%20at%20inholland/living%20in%20the%20netherlands/the%20dutch%20lifestyle/the%20dutch%20lifestyle.htm)

Despite being basically reserved, the Dutch have a manner of speaking that may startle you with its directness. They look you straight in the eye and can sound very abrupt, especially when they are speaking English or another foreign language and cannot express all the shades of meaning they would be able to express in their own language. They do not mean to be impolite, and their habit of coming to the point quickly can actually make things easier for the foreigner.

The Dutch are seldom deferential in their speech simply on the basis of the other person’s age or station in life. Younger people, in particular, say what they think without cloaking their words in a mantle of respect. If you could understand Dutch, you would probably be astonished to hear how the prime minister is interviewed for television every week. The interviewer addresses him as an equal, posing direct, tough questions, which are often answered with equal directness.

The Dutch avoid superlatives and tend to be negative, even about themselves. Compliments are offered sparingly, and to say that something is ‘not bad’ is to praise it. For the foreigner, this has the advantage that you do not need to worry too much about saying something that will hurt people’s feelings. The Dutch will argue, but seldom take offence.

Their idea of a good time is expressed in the word ‘gezellig’. This describes a feeling of warm, relaxed congeniality. People are valued for being themselves and not putting on airs.

It's awesome. Direct communication is infinitely preferable to the word games played by many....whether it's IRL or on a board such as this one.

Maybe this is why I like Civis:)

Perhaps there's more Dutch in the ol' Woodpile than my mother let on, lol

[rhiannon]

The English are not that direct, though.

I do note in my experiences with the English members of this board (not all of them of course), as well as those I've met in person, confirm the fact that their manner of communication is much more indirect.

[Mosov]

Dutch people I've met tend to be very worldly and a bit more "open" than Germans...

[Albion]

but only in the Netherlands has a friend phoned me up on my birthday to say that she simply did not feel like coming to my party, and that she would rather go for a walk in the dunes.

:D


In Germany, and certainly in the US - not to mention England - the friend would certainly have resorted to a white lie in this case.

Yep


The Dutch however believe you must never lie to your friends, that it is always best to tell them what you think clearly and directly.

If I did that.... I soon wouldn't have many friends. ;)


When I went to England after six years in the Netherlands, I had to get used to the fact that you never just tell someone what you think there. In the beginning I did not always understand exactly what the English were trying to say. "That’s an unusual outfit" did not mean, "Those clothes are very unique," but rather, "You look ridiculous!" And, "That's an interesting thought," is just a polite way of saying, "That makes no sense all."

Well it depends if you're in the north or south. Northerners are a bit more straight forward and we ask you what the hell you're wearing, southerners go round in circles to address the matter and Midlanders are in the middle of course.


Even tourists notice that people are much more polite on the London Underground than on a tram in Amsterdam. If you step on a British person's toes, to your amazement he will say, "Sorry." And the way English people queue up is another matter altogether.

I've noticed that. Whenever another person gets in the way both people will say sorry, even I do it. I suppose it's just subconscious politeness taught to us from birth.


That is why courtesy is easily seen as insincerity in the Netherlands.

Interesting. I wonder how Dutch people react to pompous Londoners then.


In English class society as well good manners were perfected by the upper echelons; they also served to screen them off from the lower classes. Mats Deutschmann, a Swedish anglo-expert, concluded in a 2003 study on English courtesy (Apologizing in British English) that those who often say sorry, pardon and excuse me underline their social position, refinement and high class in doing so.

Erm.... no... :D The Swedish "Anglo expert" doesn't know us well at all. Even low class people will use manners most of the time.

There's a few distinctions though - higher class are more likely to say "parden" (emphasising the -en slightly) whilst lower class say "Pard'n".
Another one is "excuse me" which becomes abbreviated to (sigh) - " 'scuse" quite often, especially amongst young people.


"It is primarily the powerful who excuse themselves to the powerless," Deutschmann says.

Nope. Just the people with manners.

[Albion]

"I say what I think" – and bugger anyone who thinks differently - sums the Dutch attitude up nicely for me. Of course everyone should be able to say what they think, but it matters how you say it. Courtesy is also the art of making unpleasant things clear to others in a pleasant manner.
Outward forms of courtesy and social conventions should never be a goal in themselves of course, but serve as an expression of respect for others. It would certainly do no harm for people to be taught that a bit more at home and at school.

Maybe we could learn a few things from the Dutch, a hybrid where we say what we think but with manners.

So Dutch - "your clothes are shit" becomes English "your clothes are shit, if you don't mind me saying". ;)


I’ve said a great deal here about English courtesy, but in the explicit class society this can also be condescending and accompanied by an icy aloofness. You are certainly not likely to experience that in the Netherlands, where the level landscape traditionally extends into social life.
When the Dutch are friendly, it usually really comes from the heart, and that is the best form of courtesy.

Nah, the class system is fine. If the aristocracy start being patronising you just switch to Latinate / upper class English.
I switch between different types of English all the time, the Scots-like mumbling is what I command my dogs in. :rolleyes:

[Albion]

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_luhn1bIUcp1qbbhtyo1_500.jpg

:D

English: A lot of those look familiar... Damn, my secret's out. :ohwell:
Translation: Oh shit, the jig is up!... They're onto me!

An example with me is when someone shows me something unimpressive, it's not nice to let them down so I usually end up saying "yeah, it's great... really good...." when meaning "no, it's totally shit, what the bloody hell were you thinking?".
Usually you can tell by someone's face whether they're bullshitting or not, but I have a permanent poker face so not with me. ;)


And no, the English are actually the opposite. You can never trust their word, until you've known them for quite some time. They'd tell you nice things to make you feel comfortable ... but be always armed with a good dose of skepticism in your dealings with them

You just don't know English properly yet, its the only language which requires you to learn psychology.


Remember that I told you that that I felt a bit sceptical of the true intentions of people when I was in England ?

We're all evil, plotting schemers.


That's one thing I like about Australians: they say exactly what they feel and in the roughest way possible.

Yeah, it comes off as rude a lot of the time. I have to bite my tongue around Aussies a lot of the time. Even Aussie mates will come straight out with things, it's just not cool.


European guys dress different to English guys too i've noticed that. It's real easy to spot a German or Dutch from a English due to the clothing.

Simple is better.


It is said that Dutch have no sense for style (and that is.. when you compare us to the French or the Italians or the Austrians or even our own Southerners (Belgium) certainly true) but I have never met people that were dressed worse then in England. Although it could have to do with location, social class and thus income.

Yeah, yeah, at least our clothing is practical.


That would depend on what part of England they come from. Notherners are much more straight talking than their southern counterparts. Quite similar to Scots and Welsh in that respect.

This is true.

[The Lawspeaker]

Indeed. Non-native speakers always need to mind nuance when speaking English. As for me, being Dutch and being reasonably fluent, it continues to an issue at times. Particularly since the Dutch language itself is very straightforward. A spade is a spade is a spade.

[Dandelion]

I wish Flemish people had this perk. But we don't. We keep more to ourselves and tend to back-stab.

[The Lawspeaker]

I wish Flemish people had this perk. But we don't. We keep more to ourselves and tend to back-stab.

You're not half as bad as you think you are. The language is just as straightforward though.

[The Lawspeaker]

Simon Schama, a British Jew, really captures the essence:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOIbpRLydts
Simon Schama: Rembrandt's Greatest Vision ('The Conspiracy of Claudius Civilis')

Excerpt from Simon Schama's 'The Power of Art'.

[The Lawspeaker]

I think it's ironic that those that manage to explain Dutchness are Jews: Simon Schama, Jonathan Israel and Carl Sagan.

[The Lawspeaker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THKAKIpeiiM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWK_f5cZKhE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H99cCRFjzYY

Jonathan Israel on Dutch CultureHistorian Jonathan Israel interviewed in Oxford by Max Pam. Professor Israel discusses Spinoza, the Enlightenment, Pim Fortuyn, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and a few other pressing issues in the current Dutch public debate.

[Selurong]

Simon Schama, a British Jew, really captures the essence:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOIbpRLydts
Simon Schama: Rembrandt's Greatest Vision ('The Conspiracy of Claudius Civilis')

Excerpt from Simon Schama's 'The Power of Art'.

Lol Rembrandt. I like his painting: "The Prodigal Son" better than his other painting. Lolz.

[Selurong]

I like the quotation of Simon Schama. "The Dutch is like the painting, a work in progress"

And my my my how the Dutch is so progressive as a people.

[The Lawspeaker]

I like the quotation of Simon Schama. "The Dutch is like the painting, a work in progress"

And my my my how the Dutch is so progressive as a people.

Progressive is not the right word. I think we're more pragmatic: things need to work and if they don't ? They'll go.

[Anglojew]

I think it's ironic that those that manage to explain Dutchness are Jews: Simon Schama, Jonathan Israel and Carl Sagan.

Outside perspective

[The Lawspeaker]

Outside perspective

And they are spot on. 100 percent on the mark. I don't see many Dutch historians get even close to the bare essence.

[Anglojew]

Schama also did an excellent documentary on Jews. His work is very good.

[Selurong]

Progressive is not the right word. I think we're more pragmatic: things need to work and if they don't ? They'll go.

Agreed.

[The Lawspeaker]

Schama also did an excellent documentary on Jews. His work is very good.

I can give you one example of a Dutch historian/presenter which features regularly on Dutch TV: Hans Goedkoop (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Goedkoop). Both Andere Tijden (a history program) and De Gouden Eeuw (about the Dutch Golden Age) are heavily coloured with left-wing and pro-immigrant dogma. Something that didn't really exist in documentaries made before the 1990s.

[The Lawspeaker]

Dutch society and working culture (http://www.expatica.com/nl/essentials_moving_to/country_facts/The-Netherlands-at-a-glance.html)


Are the Dutch really flexible and direct? We take a look at the Dutch attitude to work, family life and time.

How we look upon and judge the lifestyle and workplace of other cultures depends on how we view the world from our own cultural background. The Netherlands is a small country with a limited internal market, consequently the Dutch look across their borders for markets. They started out as worldwide maritime traders in the 16th century and today they are still significant players in the global economy.

"The Netherlands" means "Low Lands"; a large part of the country is situated below sea level. The Netherlands is often referred to as Holland, but Holland is actually only the northwestern part of the country.


Society
With its 16 million inhabitants--16 728 091 (January 2012)--the Netherlands is the fourth most densely populated country in the world. Everyday life is structured down to the smallest detail. Private life and work are carefully planned and nothing is left to the unexpected. Ad hoc changes are not appreciated.

The Netherlands is a democracy with a tolerant, open society. Although 70 percent of the Dutch do not attend church anymore, Calvinism still strongly influences their values and beliefs. This Protestant Christian religion, introduced in the 16th century, dictates individual responsibility for moral salvage from the sinful world through introspection, total honesty, soberness, rejection of pleasure and the enjoyment of wealth.

Therefore, extremes are absent in society: political extremes, extreme emotions, extreme richness or extravagant lifestyles. Some money may be spent for pleasure, but frequent vacations abroad, comfortable houses and safe cars are preferred above luxury items.

The Dutch are mistakenly called stingy. But in reality they simply hate to waste everything from food to money. Maybe it is this virtue that made this small country an economic world power.



Egalitarian society
The Netherlands has an egalitarian society. Status and respect are obtained through study and work and not through family ties or old age. Every person is equal and should be treated accordingly, which may be difficult for foreigners to understand.

As a Brazilian general manager living in the Netherlands remarked, "I am happy that my Dutch personnel did not throw me out of my office the first week I worked in Amsterdam. As top manager in Rio, I barely spoke to my lower personnel. I was used to giving orders and being served.

"In Amsterdam I learned to exchange some words daily with the cleaning lady, to discuss all the work with my managers and to kindly ask my secretary what phone calls came in for me. I am now used to making my own photocopies and coffee. Once you know the rules here it is very pleasant and productive to work in such an open society".

A visiting Japanese CEO asked, "If the CEO is pouring his own coffee, what kind of power can he hold in the company?"

Many Americans think the Dutch way of working is time-consuming as no one can be given a quick order without explaining why.
In order to deliver good work, the Dutch like to consider the risks and consequences of everything they do, well in advance. They want to have detailed information. In the case something does go wrong, the Dutch individual will take full responsibility for the consequences. In the case of success, of course, they will take the full credit.


Who the client is
The Dutch work hard in their 36- to 40-hour week. Work is streamlined to make the client's life easy but at a steep price because foreigners often have the impression that Dutch people are not very service-minded.

This may seem so because in most countries, the client has a preferential position above the sales person and therefore in that particular situation, a higher status. In the Netherlands, however, goods and services are exchanged on an equal basis. Sales persons feel free to openly disagree and criticise their clients.

Consensus
The Dutch are famous in the Western world for the many hours a week they spend in meetings. Decision-making processes are complex.
Everyone involved needs to be heard. In the end a compromise will be reached in which every one agrees. Once agreed upon the work can progress steadily. Therefore, changes are usually lengthy processes.

The global traveler
The contrary takes place when Dutch businessmen and women travel. They usually have the individual authority to close deals on the spot without consulting the home office.
Dutch global traders are much more flexible abroad than at their home office.

Directness
The Dutch directness in the communication with foreigners regularly causes misunderstandings. Unable to make things understood through context and unable to read context, the Dutch express themselves verbally.

They speak in a friendly tone in rather short, clear, sober sentences lacking any form of politeness or courtesy. The Dutch are distrustful of very polite conversations, afraid that an unpleasant message may be hidden which they are unable to detect. Being very nice may awaken the suspicion that one is in need of a special favor. Politeness may also cause irritation as it is considered a waste of time.

Loss of face
The Dutch expect others to be open and direct like them. They will tell you what they think of you and criticise your work indifferent of your status if you are a superior or a subordinate.
They expect you to criticise their work in return, honestly and directly. If you detect mistakes in their work and you do not inform them about these mistakes, they will be extremely disappointed with you.

The Dutch do not feel ashamed when you inform them of a mistake. On the contrary, they feel that you give them the opportunity to correct and thus improve themselves. The Dutch feel that in the end, one learns from his mistakes.

Loss of face is a rather unknown concept in Dutch society when compared to other cultures.

Time off
The Dutch love time off to spend with their partner, kids and friends, for vacation or to study. Therefore they will prefer to reduce working hours instead of having an increase in salary.
Vacation days, depending on the labour contract, run from 21 to as many as 35 working days a year.

Expatriates on foreign work-contracts in the Netherlands often complain they are always in the office while the Dutch are on vacation.
Working hours may run from 9am to 5pm. Those who are unable to handle their job within the office hours may not be fit for the job.
As work is very well structured within organisations, much work is done during regular working hours. Except for those at management level, employees are reluctant to work overtime.

Concept of time
Being very organised and time conscious, one has to plan business appointments at least four weeks ahead, with bosses, clients and colleagues.
As for your private agenda you may be expected to plan an evening at the cinema with your best friend six weeks from today.
Of course there is no such thing as just "dropping by to say hello".

The family
Despite having a very open and individualistic society, when it comes to the family nucleus, it is a hermetically closed circle. The family nucleus is detached from the extended family.
Adult brothers and sisters usually see each other only on birthday celebrations, weddings and funerals. There is no moral obligation to take care of extended family members or elderly parents.

Contradictions
With all this planning and structuring, little is left to the unexpected. Therefore Dutch people do not excel in improvising. However, they have an adventurous mind and dare to take risks in business, which requests flexibility.

Despite the strong Calvinist background and a disapproval of extremes, homosexual marriages, sex on TV and legalised soft drugs are part of daily life.
The Dutch may have great work relationships with their colleagues, but they rarely invite them to their homes. Work and private life are strictly separated.

Also, Dutch businessmen do not feel obligated to entertain foreign business visitors after business hours.
Being an egalitarian society, personal and academic titles are not used on business cards. Only corporate Holland will print the academic titles of their managers on their business cards.
People retire between 50 and 65 years old. The elderly are not respected in the corporate world.

Elderly people may never be consulted for their wisdom but they are well taken care of in comfortable old-age houses once they are unable to live on their own. If you are wealthy or not, everyone gets equal treatment.

The Dutch are open and will enjoy lengthy discussions over a beer in a bar with mostly anybody. This relationship ends when you say goodbye at the door.

However, once you do have a Dutchman (or woman) as a friend, you have a friend for life.

[TCDA1986]

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[B]Egalitarian society
The Netherlands has an egalitarian society. Status and respect are obtained through study and work and not through family ties or old age. Every person is equal and should be treated accordingly, which may be difficult for foreigners to understand.


I found this when I was in Netherlands, I was impressed that a bus driver or a cab driver or a ticket seller dresses, talks, acts, looks the same as a wealthy businessman. I guess of course there are some differences in how they live, but it is not "2 countries" like in South America or even in the UK (which in some ways has a "third world" social structure which you don't find in the rest of Europe).

Also I think while in Germany they are more "meritocratic", they are not so humble like the Dutch, who are more relaxed and open.

I think like you say, big powerful countries, look inwards, but small countries have to look outwards.