What are the cultural characterists of the slavic countries?

[Foxy]

(We are already discussing the cultural habits of Latin Europe, now I am curious about the cultural characterists of the slavic countries).

Which cultural habits, behavours, gastronomic habits, architectonic styles, etc. make the slavic countries similar to each others and differentiate them from the rest of Europe?

http://www2.luventicus.org/mappe/europa/paesislavi.gif

Do Romania, Hungary and the Baltic countries have some cultural slavic influence too?

[Foxy]

Come on, no idea?

[Ivo Arandur]

Do Romania, Hungary and the Baltic countries have some cultural slavic influence too?

I'm not sure about Hungary and the Baltic countries but Romania has experienced a lot of Slavic cultural influence (including the language which is greatly influenced by the neighbouring Slavic languages)...

[Trun]

I may divide Slavic countries in three different cultural groups: West (Poland, Czech and Slovak republic, Slovenia and Croatia), East (Russia, Belarus, Ukraine) and South (Serbia, Montenegro, Bulgaria, FYROM). The three groups generally are different each other.

[Foxy]

I may divide Slavic countries in three different cultural groups: West (Poland, Czech and Slovak republic, Slovenia and Croatia), East (Russia, Belarus, Ukraine) and South (Serbia, Montenegro, Bulgaria, FYROM). The three groups generally are different each other.

Ok, and what are the characterists of each group?

[Äike]

Do Romania, Hungary and the Baltic countries have some cultural slavic influence too?

The Estonians aren't even Baltic in the first place, we are Finnic like the Finns, but our country has no cultural influence from the Slavs, except that we eat some foods that the Soviets introduced during the occupation.

We have a lot of Slavic immigrants, though. They're quite different from us in terms of culture.

[Trun]

Ok, and what are the characterists of each group?

Erm, West group is Catholic, uses Latin alphabet, and was under German and Austro-Hungarian influence. East group is Orthodox, uses Cyrilic alphabet, and was under the influence of Russian empire. South group is Orthodox, uses Cyrilic alphabet, and was under the influence of Byzantine and Bulgarian empires (and very minor Ottoman influence).

Slavs also share some customs and mythology. In Bulgarian folklore, mythology and customs, Slavic influence is limited. Maybe some of the other Slavic members can tell you more about Slavic folklore, mythology and customs.

[Dilberth]

Polka music

[Midori]

Erm, West group is Catholic, uses Latin alphabet, and was under German and Austro-Hungarian influence. East group is Orthodox, uses Cyrilic alphabet, and was under the influence of Russian empire. South group is Orthodox, uses Cyrilic alphabet, and was under the influence of Byzantine and Bulgarian empires (and very minor Ottoman influence).

Slavs also share some customs and mythology. In Bulgarian folklore, mythology and customs, Slavic influence is limited. Maybe some of the other Slavic members can tell you more about Slavic folklore, mythology and customs.

Slovenians and Croatians are Catholic and use the Latin alphabet

[Trun]

Slovenians and Croatians are Catholic and use the Latin alphabet

Read my first post.

[Waidewut]

The Estonians aren't even Baltic in the first place, we are Finnic like the Finns, but our country has no cultural influence from the Slavs, except that we eat some foods that the Soviets introduced during the occupation.

We have a lot of Slavic immigrants, though. They're quite different from us in terms of culture.

How on earth did you get an assumption about someone saying the Estonians are Baltic, in this thread? :confused3:
Baltic countries were clearly meant as countries were Balts live aka Latvia and Lithuania.

As for Slavic cultural influence among Balts-

I guess Lithuania has more or less Slavic influence due to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and their nobility getting polonized during a part of their history and russification policies during the Russian imperial time.

Latvia obviously has practically the same amount of Slavic influence as Estonia, except one ethno-histo-cultural region which is called Latgale and has major Polish influence and suffered far more under russification.

Of course one could find some ancient cultural similarities between Balts and Slavs, but that would be the case of Balto-Slavic heritage, thus it's not cultural influence.

[bimo]

Polka music

there is not polka music in bulgaria

[Comte Arnau]

Women use skirts more often than in Western Europe, regardless of the weather. They tend to be very long or very short.

[Rereg]

...

[Aivap]

they are extremely close minded if compared to western Europe.

[Äike]

How on earth did you get an assumption about someone saying the Estonians are Baltic, in this thread? :confused3:
Baltic countries were clearly meant as countries were Balts live aka Latvia and Lithuania.

Estonia was called a Baltic country and 99% of people who say that, think that Estonians are no different from the Eastern-European (;)) Balts.


Latvia obviously has practically the same amount of Slavic influence as Estonia, except one ethno-histo-cultural region which is called Latgale and has major Polish influence and suffered far more under russification.

Being corrupt and having an oligarch as a president isn't Slavic influence?

[Waidewut]

Estonia was called a Baltic country
It was called so? I know Estonians sometimes have problems understanding different word genders, but misusing past tenses is something new to me.



and 99% of people who say that, think that Estonians are no different from the Eastern-European (;)) Balts.
You just emphasized Estonia being a Baltic country, when you explained the Estonians aren't Baltic, with no reasons to do so.
This shows you actually like living in a Baltic country.


Being corrupt and having an oligarch as a president isn't Slavic influence?
This is commie influence.

[Incal]

Heavy drinking.

[Dilberth]

Hardworking people

[Geminus]

Estonia was called a Baltic country and 99% of people who say that, think that Estonians are no different from the Eastern-European (;)) Balts.

Latvia, Estonia, all Balts to me :P
But honestly, I think maybe 99% of the world doesn't know that Estonia isn't a Baltic country, whereas only 1% of the Apricity members don't know it. :D
All due to the effort of a certain member ;)

[Äike]

It was called so? I know Estonians sometimes have problems understanding different word genders, but misusing past tenses is something new to me.

Called in the sense that the original poster did so.


You just emphasized Estonia being a Baltic country, when you explained the Estonians aren't Baltic, with no reasons to do so.
This shows you actually like living in a Baltic country.

I like living in a Finnic country, talking to Finnic people, reading Finnic books, listening to beautiful Finnic songs and enjoying Finnic culture.

Please do the same with your Baltic stuff and stop shoving your Balticness down my throat.


This is commie influence.

That means Slavic/Russian influence, which Estonian lacks.

[Äike]

Latvia, Estonia, all Balts to me :P
But honestly, I think maybe 99% of the world doesn't know that Estonia isn't a Baltic country, whereas only 1% of the Apricity members don't know it. :D
All due to the effort of a certain member ;)

Yeah, Finns and Estonians are definitely Balts, we are also Indo-Europeans.

[Rereg]

I think maybe 99% of the world doesn't know that Estonia isn't a Baltic country, whereas only 1% of the Apricity members don't know it. :D

Most people in this world don't know where is Estonia. :p Other people think that Estonia is forgotten russian province.

[Äike]

Most people in this world don't know where is Estonia. :p Other people think that Estonia is forgotten russian province.

Poland is like Russian province if compared to Estonia, that's the truth.

[Rereg]

Poland is like Russian province if compared to Estonia, that's the truth.

I suppose you never been in Poland. I don't understand your rage, for most western europeans all ex-communist states are poor semi- russian village, Estonia isn't exception. :rolleyes:

[Sarmatian]

Can members of Balto-Finnic states discuss their issues somewhere else? This thread is about Slavic culture.

[Äike]

I suppose you never been in Poland. I don't understand your rage, for most western europeans all ex-communist states are poor semi- russian village, Estonia isn't exception. :rolleyes:

Well, actually most Western-Europeans who visit Estonia say that it is no different from other Western countries.

I'll quote a Iberian member of TA who has visited Poland, Russia and Estonia, he said something similar to this: "Estonia and Russia are very different and it's visible, while Poland is something between Estonia and Russia in terms of advancement."

[Äike]

Can members of Balto-Finnic states discuss their issues somewhere else? This thread is about Slavic culture.

I'll just leave this thread and leave it to you, Balto-Slavs, you're a nice tight knit group and should discuss about your cultural similarities.

Northern-European Finnic guys like me have no place in this thread, you are correct. Sorry.

[Rereg]

Well, actually most Western-Europeans who visit Estonia say that it is no different from other Western countries.

Only very small minority of western-Europeans visited Estonia.


I'll quote a Iberian member of TA who has visited Poland, Russia and Estonia, he said something similar to this: "Estonia and Russia are very different and it's visible, while Poland is something between Estonia and Russia in terms of advancement.


Cool story Karl :D, today's Talinn is russian city while in Poland no exist east-slavic minority.

[Geminus]

Can members of Balto-Finnic states discuss their issues somewhere else? This thread is about Slavic culture.

In regard to Russia I guess most Germans would first think about alcohol, especially Vodka consume. ;) But also great hospitality would come into my mind.
The more literate individual may also know Tolstoy or Tchaikovsky.

From Poland I must admit at the moment only the book "With Fire and Sword" comes into my mind, written by Sienkiewicz (I'm unable to memorize this name, how can Polish people invent such surnames... Same thing with the names of the characters in this book, at some time I gave up trying to pronounce them) But I enjoyed reading it, nevertheless ;)
Well, one must not simply forget Chopin of course. :)

My knowledge about the South-Slavic countries is even more limited. I guess Ottoman occupation prevented the appearance of influential persons in cultural respects for a long time.

[Äike]

Only very small minority of western-Europeans visited Estonia.

The ones that come here instantly realize that Tallinn and Estonia have been classically Western for the past 800 years. Even Russians visit Tallinn because they want to walk in a "Western city".


Cool story Karl :D, today's Talinn is russian city while in Poland no exist east-slavic minority.

Tallinn is the capital of Estonia and it is an Estonian city, it doesn't matter if 50% of its population consists of Slavic Eastern-European immigrants like you.

Tallinn is a city with a rich historical past and it definitely doesn't look "Slavic". The only thing Slavic in the borders of Tallinn are the immigrants who walk on Tallinn's streets.

Have a nice evening.

[Rastko]

Subhumans.

[Rereg]

From Poland I must admit at the moment only the book "With Fire and Sword" comes into my mind, written by Sienkiewicz.

Do you know that Sienkiewicz was polonized Tatar? :p

[Sikeliot]

Here's my take, related to culture, on the periphery groups.

Lithuanians = Balts with significant Slavic cultural influence, mostly from Poland.
Estonians = similar, in large part, to Finns.
Latvians = Similar to Lithuanians, with less Slavic influence.
Romanians = Similar to Balkan Slavs and Ukrainians, with a Romance language.
Hungarians = more like Central Europeans.

[Rereg]

Tallinn is the capital of Estonia and it is an Estonian city, it doesn't matter if 50% of its population consists of Slavic Eastern-European immigrants like you.

:lol00002: No words. Btw I'm not immigrant.


Tallinn is a city with a rich historical past and it definitely doesn't look "Slavic".

What is "slavic look" city? :)



The only thing Slavic in the borders of Tallinn are the immigrants who walk on Tallinn's streets.

But still they are inhabitants of your capital city.

[Geminus]

Do you know that Sienkiewicz was polonized Tatar? :p

What did I read :eek: :D
But I also read The Three Musketeers from Dumas, who was even quarter Black ;)

[Sarmatian]

(We are already discussing the cultural habits of Latin Europe, now I am curious about the cultural characterists of the slavic countries).

Which cultural habits, behavours, gastronomic habits, architectonic styles, etc. make the slavic countries similar to each others and differentiate them from the rest of Europe?

I can't speak for all Slavic countries, only for Eastern.

One of the striking characteristics that makes Eastern Slavs different from Western Europeans is they do not rely on power of intellect as much as Westerners. It doesn't mean they are intellectually incapable. They just trust their instincts and intuition much more and it has a big role in decision making.

Also I'm not sure about Belorussians but Russians and Ukrainians are extremely warlike people compared to Westerners. But they are not aggressors or expansionists.

[Loddfafner]

People from all Slavic lands I have met share a distinctive style of sarcasm accompanied by a sneering facial expression. The sneer might actually be phenotypical.

[Europa]

People from all Slavic lands I have met share a distinctive style of sarcasm accompanied by a sneering facial expression. The sneer might actually be phenotypical.

That's normal:)

[Incal]

Oh, and the ho's are called "Kurva".

[Comte Arnau]

Yes, kurva and pivo are pan-Slavic words quite well-known by Westerners. :D

[WitheredWhiteness]

Yes, kurva and pivo are pan-Slavic words quite well-known by Westerners. :D

Just to make clear, in Polish it is kurwa and piwo, and yes these words are the most popular :) I also noticed that many of my foreign friends know more polish words, also very popular, such as: wódka, cześć, spierdalaj, jak się masz? - which means something like 'how are you', but no one really uses it but it is well known outside Poland, and of course many other swear words related to cocks, whores and fucking. I thing Poles created so many ways of swearing using just a couple of words that they are almost swear-poets.

Regarding the piwo matter, we have so many kinds and tastes, especially from small local breweries. They are simply delicious and the well-known brands are shit in comparison to local polish beer. My favourite is a dark and quite strong one made on buckwheat honey, long-stored in a low temperature.

And of course the many many kinds of vodka that can be bought in Poland, dreamland for alcohol users :thumbs up

[Comte Arnau]

Just to make clear, in Polish it is kurwa and piwo,

I know, but you pronounce that w as a v, don't you? ;)


and yes these words are the most popular :) I also noticed that many of my foreign friends know more polish words, also very popular, such as: wódka, cześć, spierdalaj, jak się masz?

I also know the word herbata. I don't like tea too much, but the best teas I've ever drunk were prepared by a Pole.

[WitheredWhiteness]

I know, but you pronounce that w as a v, don't you? ;)

Yes we do, and when we get angry we pronounce that 'RW' in a really rolling and aggressive way ;) You probably heard that since you have met some Poles.



I also know the word herbata. I don't like tea too much, but the best teas I've ever drunk were prepared by a Pole.

I can't believe it! I think Poles aren't a tea-coffee-drinking culture. It must have been someone who knew at least something about tea-making.

[Sarmatian]

Yes, kurva and pivo are pan-Slavic words quite well-known by Westerners. :D

There is no word kurwa in Russian or Ukrainian languages. We call it shluha or blyad'

[Comte Arnau]

There is no word kurwa in Russian or Ukrainian languages. We call it shluha or blyad'

I know the most common word in Russian is шлюха, but курва definitely exists too.

[rashka]

People from all Slavic lands I have met share a distinctive style of sarcasm accompanied by a sneering facial expression. The sneer might actually be phenotypical.

It's really hard for me to believe that slavs have a sneering facial expression. Would you have examples of that? I always thought sneer types of looks were found anywhere, depending on how the person was born, in Western societies and certain Southern (like Albania - there you will see a lot of sneerlike faces) and certain Eastern or far eastern regions. Perhaps you meant a frowning type of expression on Slav faces?

[arcticwolf]

How do you describe to a non-Slav what Slavic soul is? :p Any Slav has an idea? ;)

[Sarmatian]

I know the most common word in Russian is шлюха, but курва definitely exists too.

I've never heard of курва being used by Russians.

[Veneda]

I've never heard of курва being used by Russians.
Nevertheless the word exists ;)

http://www.slovoborg.ru/definition/%D0%BA%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B2%D0%B0

[Corvus]

I may divide Slavic countries in three different cultural groups: West (Poland, Czech and Slovak republic, Slovenia and Croatia), East (Russia, Belarus, Ukraine) and South (Serbia, Montenegro, Bulgaria, FYROM). The three groups generally are different each other.

Slovenia belongs to the South IMO, although there are some influences of Austria and the Western Slavic countries which cannot be denied. But I think we had this topic already.

[Foxy]

Estonians aren't Balts. Balts are a ethno-liguistic term whereas Estonians belong to Finnic ethno-linguistic group. Baltic countries is a geopolitical name. If you mean Estonia in the context of Latvia and Lithuania, you should always use two words: Baltic countries. The word Baltic alone is not suitable too because theris a term Baltic languages which Estonian does not belong to.

I'm not a suker for Karl, I'm just explaining the meaning of these words.

I'm sure you can find people on this forum who does not realize these differences, so don't take it entirely personally.

I used the word "Baltic countries" in a geographical sense: the non-slavic countries who face the Baltic Sea. Also Finland could be included.
This said, can we go back to the core topic?

[Daos]

Do Romania, Hungary and the Baltic countries have some cultural slavic influence too?

There's a wealth of words of Slavic origin in both Romanian and Hungarian. I don't know much about the Baltic languages, but they sound very Slavic to me.


there is not polka music in bulgaria

But there is in Romania:

a9bWU6emKpY


Oh, and the ho's are called "Kurva".

We also have it - curvă -, as well as the Hungarians - kurva.

[lI]

My previous reply to this post of yours seems to have disappeared from this thread but I know that you saw it already, so I won't bother typing everything up again, I'll just mention the essence in brief for the record :)


As for Slavic cultural influence among Balts-

I guess Lithuania has more or less Slavic influence due to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and their nobility getting polonized during a part of their history and russification policies during the Russian imperial time.

Latvia obviously has practically the same amount of Slavic influence as Estonia, except one ethno-histo-cultural region which is called Latgale and has major Polish influence and suffered far more under russification.
Latvia has certainly no less Slavic influence due to the Soviet period which had a much greater impact on it than on Lithuania.

The nobility getting culturally Polonized had little impact on the people from who did not belong to nobility and from whom the modern day Lithuanians descend while the russification policies had an opposite effect than was intended - all those policies managed to do was ignite this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_National_Revival

If you wish to discuss the issue in more detail - I'm all up for it. The fact that Latvian language has more Slavic loanwords than Lithuanian language does would be of particular interest to me - very relevant too, talking about cultural influences.

[Waidewut]

Latvia has certainly no less Slavic influence due to the Soviet period which had a much greater impact on it than on Lithuania.
Well Latvia is certainly uber-Slavic, with most of the 38% of non-Latvians being Slavic, in comparison to Lithuania. But I don't see how exactly do the recent Soviet immigrants influence ethnic Latvian culture. After lets say 50 years, when all of them will be integrated into the one- Latvian nationality, then there will be obvious cultural impact within the Latvian nation and probably ethnic Latvians. A few decades ago the Slavic immigrants had absolutely no intention to integrate within the Latvian culture and thus bring traces of their own culture. Latvians were planned to be made to integrate within the Soviet/Russian nation, simply by using brutal demographic engineering, not vice versa. The Soviet immigrants have max 65 years of history here, while most came here in the 70's I guess. After lets say 100 years Latvians will probably be ethnically half Russian and then there will be a cultural influence, but now they are here for a too short time, during most of it they lived in an artificial 2 side community.


The nobility getting culturally Polonized had little impact on the people from who did not belong to nobility and from whom the modern day Lithuanians descend while the russification policies had an opposite effect than was intended - all those policies managed to do was ignite this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_National_Revival
But didn't you guys have vast regions where Poles and Lithuanians, who belonged to the non-nobility class, lived side by side?

I was a bit shocked when you started posting unrelated German/Polish influence comparisons in your previous post. I felt as if you associate me and probably other Latvians with some certain other Latvian individuals with whom you have some sort of disagreement. :)

As for russification- it probably didn't work as it was intended. But still you got more or less influence just together with the fact of being part of the Russian Empire and not having the same kind of autonomy most of Latvia had.



If you wish to discuss the issue in more detail - I'm all up for it. The fact that Latvian language has more Slavic loanwords than Lithuanian language does would be of particular interest to me - very relevant too, talking about cultural influences.
Do tell, I would appreciate a link.
I always noticed random Lithuanian words which were similar to Slavic languages like Russian, when the Latvian term had no similarities at all. But this could as well be explained with Lithuanians using archaic Balto-Slavic words, while Latvians are not true Balts and use dirty Finnic or German loanwords. ;)

[lI]

As for russification- it probably didn't work as it was intended. But still you got more or less influence just together with the fact of being part of the Russian Empire and not having the same kind of autonomy most of Latvia had.Please let me know what Slavic cultural influences the Tsarist Russian occupation left? I am not aware of any. Instead of leaving Slavic influences it had the opposite effect. Just read the article to which I linked.



Do tell, I would appreciate a link.Being a Latvian, looking up a link with all your Slavic loanwords listed would be easier for yourself. We could then discern which are found in Lithuanian as well and which exist only in Latvian. I could do the same for Lithuanian, would you be interested?

I didn't specifically search for such words, but these were too obvious not to hear them (I know Russian language but I can't write in Cyrilic, so I'll transcribe the Russian words in Latin aphabet the way they are pronounced):


Russian Latvian Lithuanian English

chilavek cilveks asmuo/žmogus man/person
kartofel kartupeli bulvė potato
stradat stradati dirbti/kentėti work/bear
shkola skola mokykla school
zvanok zvans kvietimas/pakviestas invitation/invited
daragoi dargs brangus expensiveAre these not borrowings? No cognates to them exist in Lithuanian. This source lists some of them as loanwords:


The glottalization had been preserved in Russian at the time of the earliest borrowings into Latvian, where it is reflected as a stretched tone, e.g. miẽsts ‘hamlet’, muõka ‘torment’, grãmata ‘book’, kaps ‘servant’, as opposed to the falling tone reflecting the absence of glottalization in grȩks̀ ‘sin’, bȩdà ‘care’, stràdât ‘to work’, svȩts̀ ‘holy’, grȩdà ‘pile’, vèsts ‘news’ (cf. Kortlandt 2008a). http://www.kortlandt.nl/publications/art253e.pdf

There might be loandwords in Lithuanian which do not exist in Latvian but they have generally been purged out during the standartization whereas the loanwords in Latvian seem to be still in common use.

The commonly listed examples of slavic loanwords in Lithuanian that are missing in Latvian are these - book knyga and city miestas. However, in Latvian the word for "book" is also a Slavic loandword - grāmata (Russian gramata) and though city is pilsēta in Latvian, miestas has been borrowed too, it's just come to mean hamlet rather than city while in Lithuanian pilietis now means citizen.
So, it seems that loanwords which exist in Lithuanian can either be found in Latvian too while Latvian has some loanwords which Lithuanian lacks.


I always noticed random Lithuanian words which were similar to Slavic languages like Russian, when the Latvian term had no similarities at all. But this could as well be explained with Lithuanians using archaic Balto-Slavic words, while Latvians are not true Balts and use dirty Finnic or German loanwords. ;)A sensible explanation ;)


http://indo-european-migrations.scienceontheweb.net/IE_table.html
Proto-Indo-European *swester
German schwester
Sanskrit svasR
Latvian ma:sa
Lithuanian Nom. sesuo, Acc. sesérs
Old Prussian svestro
Russian sestra

Proto-Indo-European *sounus
German sohn
Sanskrit su:nù
Latvian d.e:ls
Lithuanian su:nùs
Old Prussian souns
Russian sïn

Proto-Indo-European *dukter
German tochter
Sanskrit duhitàr
Latvian meita (cf. Ger. Madchen)
Lithuanian Nom. dukté: Acc.duktérs
Old Prussian dukti
Russian doch


Although, interestingly enough, even in lexico-statistical comparisons the results come out like this:
http://indo-european-migrations.scienceontheweb.net/Swadesh_Baltic_100.doc

Percentage of similarity
Lith-Latv 72%
Lith-Rus 57%
Latv-Rus 59%


BTW there are also certain developments in Latvian language than remind me of Slavic languages even though they might have been individually acquired, like the loss of n - that's supposed to be common in Latvian, isn't it?

Russian-Polish-Lithuanian-Latvian
Piat' - Pięć - Penki - Pieci ("five")
Miakki - Miękki - Minkštas - mīksts ("soft")
Ruka - Ręka - Ranka - roka ("hand")

It seems to be common not only in the stems of the words but also in suffixes:
Latvian Lithuanian
Svētīts Šventintas ("the one that has been sacralized")

_______________________________________


Well Latvia is certainly uber-Slavic, with most of the 38% of non-Latvians being Slavic, in comparison to Lithuania. But I don't see how exactly do the recent Soviet immigrants influence ethnic Latvian culture. After lets say 50 years, when all of them will be integrated into the one- Latvian nationality, then there will be obvious cultural impact within the Latvian nation and probably ethnic Latvians. A few decades ago the Slavic immigrants had absolutely no intention to integrate within the Latvian culture and thus bring traces of their own culture. Latvians were planned to be made to integrate within the Soviet/Russian nation, simply by using brutal demographic engineering, not vice versa. The Soviet immigrants have max 65 years of history here, while most came here in the 70's I guess. After lets say 100 years Latvians will probably be ethnically half Russian and then there will be a cultural influence, but now they are here for a too short time, during most of it they lived in an artificial 2 side community. 65 years history translates into 2-3 generations of immigrants who were already born in Latvia - you call that insignificant? :icon_neutral:
Mixing might not have been more common than keeping to themselves but it certainly wasn't unheard off either. I might visit Latvia myself some time in future, so far I base my opinions on what people whom I know in real life and who have visited it say.


But didn't you guys have vast regions where Poles and Lithuanians, who belonged to the non-nobility class, lived side by side?Vast regions? I wouldn't call them vast but unfortunately the greater part of them isn't currently in the territory of the modern day Lithuania.

This is a nice illustration of how Lithuanian borders changed throughout the ages:
O77QQPOmbXw

Before the annexation of Vilnius, Poles weren't particularly numerous there even.


I was a bit shocked when you started posting unrelated German/Polish influence comparisons in your previous post. I felt as if you associate me and probably other Latvians with some certain other Latvian individuals with whom you have some sort of disagreement. It's not unrelated. Your post is an almost word-to-word recitation of what that other Latvian have said in a discussion about the very same thing - Slavic influences - which happened quite recently. In the previous discussion I was pretty much accused there that I'm coveting precious German influence on Latvia - the person I was arguing against seemed to be incapable of understanding that Lithuanians neither are nor perceive themselves as a crossbread of influence from occupiers and the continuation of Balts.

[Mordid]

Polka music
I'd love to see you dancing Polka.

[Didriksson]

There are a lot of mistakes in those examples in Latvian... just letting you know. ;)

[lI]

There are a lot of mistakes in those examples in Latvian... just letting you know. ;)

Let me know what mistakes then.

If it's just writting these symbols Ļ Ā Ī instead of L A I, you're being ridiculous.

[Didriksson]

Let me know what mistakes then.

If it's just writting these symbols Ļ Ā Ī instead of L A I, you're being ridiculous.

No, I meant the word endings and there are also some synonyms that you could use. And those Russian words written in Latin doesn't depict the pronunciation. It would be interesting to make a list of similar words in Latvian, Lithuanian and Russian and record them, what do you say about such idea?

[Didriksson]

Estonia, Latvia ...Интересная вещь - я думаю скоро всё изменится - кажется Латыши и Эстонцы не выдержали экзамен на самостоятельность и независимость . Положение этнических Русских в Латвии и Эстонии указывает , что эти государства просто ошибка истории ....:rolleyes:

I think you don't follow the latest news and live in a post Soviet dream world.

[Styggnacke]

Estonia, Latvia ...Интересная вещь - я думаю скоро всё изменится - кажется Латыши и Эстонцы не выдержали экзамен на самостоятельность и независимость . Положение этнических Русских в Латвии и Эстонии указывает , что эти государства просто ошибка истории ....:rolleyes:
This isn't the Russian section. Write in English, please.

[Lisa]

I think you don't follow the latest news and live in a post Soviet dream world.

No, I live in real-modern world.

[Didriksson]

No, I live in real-modern world.

I really doubt that.

[Lisa]

I really doubt that.

Why ? I do not have a time machine :rolleyes:

[riverman]

(edit)

[lI]

No, I meant the word endings and there are also some synonyms that you could use. And those Russian words written in Latin doesn't depict the pronunciation.

I am asking for the second time to point out the mistakes. Add a better transcription of Russian pronunciation too - if you'll be so kind.

There being other synonyms does in no way contradict anything I have said - the cognates with Russian are still widely used in Latvian, and they caught my ear.

It would be interesting to make a list of similar words in Latvian, Lithuanian and Russian and record them, what do you say about such idea?Transcription of pronunciation alone should suffice. I'm not at home anyway, so I wouldn't be able to make a recording now even if I wanted to. But if you want to know what my standard Lithuanian sounds like, here's a recording that I made for the "post your voice" thread - http://snd.sc/HfTb7o

WORDS (I took all the cognates that exist in all three languages that were listed here (http://indo-european-migrations.scienceontheweb.net/IE_table.html) ):


English Lithuanian Latvian Russian
water vândúo u:dens voda
two dù divi dêva
three tri:s tri:s triye
Four kiaturì chetri chetïre
six sheshì seshi shestî
I àsh es ya
we me:s me:s mï
heart shirdìs sirds sérdce
mother mótina ma:te matî
father të'vas te:vs otîcî
brother brólis bra:li bratrê
hand rankà roka roka
eye akìs aks oko
ear ausìs auss ouxo
night naktìs nakts noch
day dienà diena den
star zhveizhdé zvaigzne zvezda
sun sáule saule sólnce
fire ugnìs uguns ognî
earth zhe:me zeme zemla
wind véja ve:jsh vetrê
snow snie:gas sniegs snegî
dog shwó suns suka
horse zhìrgas zirgs zherebéts
white baltás balts balê
yellow geltónas dzeltens zhóltïy
worm kirmele ce:rme chrîvî
wolf vilkas vilks volk

If you feel that the pronunciation which I copied and pasted from the source doesn't do the justice, feel free to quote it and correct to what you believe it should be.

[Mordid]

If you don't know English you stop posting in English forums.
Fixed.

[Didriksson]

1. Let's start with the Russian word stradat - ciest (Latvian);

2. Maybe you meant zvonok with zvan? I am not a native Russian speaker, but I haven't heard such word zvan in Russian;

3. Skola is a borrowing from Swedish.
Daragoi - dārgs in Latvian;

Here I have recorded those words in Latvian and Russian:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0ivvCtevTJs

4. (LV) aks / (RUS) oko, as I wrote before I am not a native Russian speaker, but I haven't heard such word oko in Russian. It is also written wrong in Latvian - acs is the correct word for eye and I usually use glaz in Russian. Native Russians speakers should help with the Russian word;

5. Nakts - night; Diena - day; Saule - sun; Vilks - volf, brālis - brother are words of common IE origin, they are not borrowings from Russian into Latvian;

6. Zvaigzne is a borrowing from Russian, but there is also a Latvian word - stars - beam in English. I am not sure, but it looks like English star and Latvian stars are of the same origin, just they are used in a bit different senses. In astronomy they use - debess spīdekļi to talk about stars;

7. Suns (dog in English) is sobaka in Russian. Suka is bitch in Russian - kuce in Latvian.
And suka in Latvian is a brush. Russians usually laugh about the Latvian meaning of suka.;

8. I have never heard zherebéts in Russian. I always use - лошадь/loshadj
. But again we should as about this to a native Russian speaker;

Though I have heard жеребенок wihc is kumeļš in Latvian - colt horse in English.

9. Cērme is глист/glist in Russian - helminth in English;

10.Tārps in Latvian is червь/cherv in Russian - worm in English.

To be honest some of those Latin transcriptions of Russian words look weird to me... I don't know, maybe those are old Russian words?

Here I have recorded those other words in Latvian and Russian:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s01OiVGaGuXO

p.s. as I am not a native Russian speaker so I also have an accent in Russian.

[lI]

The words I listed in my second post are from the lexico-statistical comparison - none of them are borrowings.

I thought that much was obvious as I posted them in response to you asking to "make a list of similar words in Latvian, Lithuanian and Russian" - similar words, not the loanwords and I also posted a link from which I took them.
But I would be very interested to compare loanwords as well, are you?

I listed some borrowings in my first post.


Also, I now corrected the spelling of the words according to what you have written in my messages, thanks!

[Rereg]

Balts shouldn't make trolling here, especially lithuanian members who manipulate history of Grand Dutchy of Lithuania.

[lI]

1. Let's start with the Russian word stradat - ciest (Latvian);
There is a word stradat too in Latvian it means "work" while the Russian stradat means "labour/suffer" - VERY similar, denying the connection makes you look dishonest.



2. Maybe you meant zvonok with zvan? I am not a native Russian speaker, but I haven't heard such word zvan in Russian;звань zvan means invited in Russian rather than invitation.


3. Skola is a borrowing from Swedish.The similarity to Russian shkola is curious then.


Daragoi - dārgs in Latvian;Yes, sorry, I accidentally wrote dargas instead of dargs out of habit - Lithuanian endings..


8. I have never heard zherebéts in Russian. I always use - лошадь/loshadj
. But again we should as about this to a native Russian speaker; In the link it was written that in Russian it means "stalion" which is a type of horse.


4. (LV) aks / (RUS) oko, as I wrote before I am not a native Russian speaker, but I haven't heard such word oko in Russian. It is also written wrong in Latvian - acs is the correct word for eye and I usually use glaz in Russian. Native Russians speakers should help with the Russian word;
http://translate.google.com/#ru|lt|%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%BE%20



7. Suns (dog in English) is sobaka in Russian. Suka is bitch in Russian - kuce in Latvian.
And suka in Latvian is a brush. Russians usually laugh about the Latvian meaning of suka.;Latvian suns and Russian suka both mean dog, the difference being that the Latvian one means male dog and the Russian female dog - they are cognates - that is why both were included in the lexico-statistical comparison a link to which I posted.

[Waidewut]

Please let me know what Slavic cultural influences the Tsarist Russian occupation left? I am not aware of any. Instead of leaving Slavic influences it had the opposite effect. Just read the article to which I linked.
From my Latvian perspective, I based my assumption about Lithuania on the situation of Latgale, where the Polish nobility had no real autonomy. The russification has left many visible traits there, if I compare it with the other ethno-cultural regions. Obviously Lithuanians resisted it far more than Latgals, but I will try to dig something up nevertheless.



Being a Latvian, looking up a link with all your Slavic loanwords listed would be easier for yourself. We could then discern which are found in Lithuanian as well and which exist only in Latvian. I could do the same for Lithuanian, would you be interested?
I though you had some interesting sources that already proved your statement- There are more Slavic loanwords in Latvian than in Lithuanian.




I didn't specifically search for such words, but these were too obvious not to hear them (I know Russian language but I can't write in Cyrilic, so I'll transcribe the Russian words in Latin aphabet the way they are pronounced):


Russian Latvian Lithuanian English

chilavek cilveks asmuo/žmogus man/person
kartofel kartupeli bulvė potato
stradat stradati dirbti/kentėti work/bear
shkola skola mokykla school
zvanok zvans kvietimas/pakviestas invitation/invited
daragoi dargs brangus expensiveAre these not borrowings? No cognates to them exist in Lithuanian. This source lists some of them as loanwords:

http://www.kortlandt.nl/publications/art253e.pdf

There might be loandwords in Lithuanian which do not exist in Latvian but they have generally been purged out during the standartization whereas the loanwords in Latvian seem to be still in common use.

The commonly listed examples of slavic loanwords in Lithuanian that are missing in Latvian are these - book knyga and city miestas. However, in Latvian the word for "book" is also a Slavic loandword - grāmata (Russian gramata) and though city is pilsēta in Latvian, miestas has been borrowed too, it's just come to mean hamlet rather than city while in Lithuanian pilietis now means citizen.
So, it seems that loanwords which exist in Lithuanian can either be found in Latvian too while Latvian has some loanwords which Lithuanian lacks.

Latvian wiki mentions some more slavisms than you just mentioned, which are absent in Latvian.


Lithuanian Latvian Belorussian/Polish word
blynas pankūka блiн
grybas sēne грыб
košė biezputra каша/kasza
krienas mārrutks xpeн
ponas kungs naн/pan

Sorry for indecent language, but doesn't the word kurva have the same meaning in both Polish and Lithuanian? It's obviously a loan.



http://indo-european-migrations.scienceontheweb.net/IE_table.html
Proto-Indo-European *swester
German schwester
Sanskrit svasR
Latvian ma:sa
Lithuanian Nom. sesuo, Acc. sesérs
Old Prussian svestro
Russian sestra

Proto-Indo-European *sounus
German sohn
Sanskrit su:nù
Latvian d.e:ls
Lithuanian su:nùs
Old Prussian souns
Russian sïn
It would be interesting to learn what is the origin of these Latvian words. I can't find any info in the internet, but these words certainly don't give any German or Finnic vibe.



65 years history translates into 2-3 generations of immigrants who were already born in Latvia - you call that insignificant? :icon_neutral:
Mixing might not have been more common than keeping to themselves but it certainly wasn't unheard off either. I might visit Latvia myself some time in future, so far I base my opinions on what people whom I know in real life and who have visited it say.
I hope you do, but I can't argue with supposed personal experiences.
Latvia today, just like in the past 65 years has been a noticeable 2 side community country, with the 2 communities not really interacting with one another that much.



It's not unrelated. Your post is an almost word-to-word recitation of what that other Latvian have said in a discussion about the very same thing - Slavic influences - which happened quite recently. In the previous discussion I was pretty much accused there that I'm coveting precious German influence on Latvia - the person I was arguing against seemed to be incapable of understanding that Lithuanians neither are nor perceive themselves as a crossbread of influence from occupiers and the continuation of Balts.
Well Latvians like themselves how they are now and what they were made by history, and yes, also German influence. Certainly the now a day Latvian culture would be different if it weren't for the Germans, so why would we wish for us to be different and thus not ourselves.
Latvians didn't even exist in the same sense Lithuanians existed before the Northern Crusades, and probably wouldn't exist in the same sense they started existing in the 17th century, if not for them.

[Didriksson]

For me as a Latvian it is not hard to admit all the influences we have here - Slavic, Germanic and Finnic. Latvians as such didn't existed till the end of the 18th century... in the ethnic genesis of Latvians some of the ancient Baltic tribes and Finnic Livonians participated.
Sometimes I wonder what would have happened with the Latvian language if there wouldn't had been any Germans... they were the first ones who wrote it down and it was really crucial for our language.
It can be hard to understand the position of Latvians.. even our territory was always divided between different powers - different influences. When Latvia went independent in 1918, Latgale decided to join Latvia just because it was promised that they will be able to preserve their language and culture. And indeed Latgale is really different from the rest of Latvia - culturally, linguistically, ect.