De Duitse Nederlanden

[The Lawspeaker]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9f/Dutch_in_Germany.png

We are going back to de Duitse Nederlanden. (The Netherlands in Germany). In those areas Dutch (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nederlands_in_Duitsland) was being used during the 17th century and after. Until this very day a South Gueldrish (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleverlands) dialect is used in some of the areas while other speak Low Saxon-dialects.

Yes.. you heard it. Those boche nicked some lands from us that should be returned. Make sure the place is swept clean before the lot of you fucks off back to Germany...:D


Nah... a lot of those areas were part of fiefdoms that belonged to areas that are now in the Netherlands (and areas in the Netherlands belonged to fiefdoms on the other side) but were Dutch-speaking. Germanification only began in earnest after the unification of 1870 and in some areas Dutch or Low Saxon dialects were spoken until after the war and in a lot of dialects Dutch words or traces of grammar can still be found. The history of those areas is very complicated and it would take a local historian to clear it up.

Anyways.. we are still going to the Graafschap Benthem which is just across the border from the Dutch province of Drenthe which is of course Low Saxon:



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/Teilansicht_Nordhorn.jpg
The little town of Noordhoorn is now the "capital"of the region of the Graafschap Bentheim. For the Germans amongst us: I will continue to use the Dutch (and Low Saxon) names because our languages are so related that we will still know what I am talking about.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Verbindungsschleuse1.JPG
A lock in the socalled Verbindingskanaal between the Nordhorn-Almelo-Kanaal and the Eems-Vecht-Kanaal. I notice that the general feeling of the area.. is very Dutch.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Dulinks_Hus.jpg
An old farm yard (called Dulinkshus in Lower Saxon) in the little village of Vredensweel (now known as Frenswegen).


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Klosterallee.jpg
A road leading up to the local monastery.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Kruittoren_Kasteel_Bentheim.jpg
The Kruidtoren of Benthem Castle.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/Evangelisch-Reformierte_Kirche_Bentheim_2.jpg
The Evangelisch-Gereformeerde Kerk (local church) in the same town. Once the capital of the Graafschap.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/De_Vecht_bij_Emlichheim.jpg
Along the Vecht at Emmelkamp.

At this moment I only showed you around one part of the German Netherlands (the Graafschap Benthem.) but more is to come. Stay tuned. :thumb001:

[The Lawspeaker]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Kleve_neuer_tiergarten.jpg
A view on the Nieuwe Diergaarde or Kleefse Tuinen in Kleef (once part of the County of Kleef). One of the original owners of the place was Johan Maurits van Nassau-Siegen, relative of William of Orange and a former governor of Dutch Brazil. He was also a member of the States-General.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Kleve_tiergarten_ausblick.jpg
View of the obelisk on the Springenberg towards the Prins Maurits-channel and Hoog-Elten.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Schwanenburg_der_Stadt_Kleve.jpg
A view on the Zwanenburg and the Stiftkerk.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Wesel_lutherhaus_v_1729.jpg
The Lutherhuis in Wezel.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Burg_Anholt_04.jpg
Anholt Castle.. as seen from the back.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/2009-09_oude_ijjsel_bij_grens_dwarsefeld.JPG?uselang=nl
The Oude IJssel - as close to Anholt.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/2009-09_Rosen_Daniels_Dwarsefeld.JPG?uselang=nl
The landscape around Anholt.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Haus_Aspel_NO.jpg?uselang=de
A view on Huis Aspel, close to Rees.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/Kranenburg_Kranenturm_PM02.jpg?uselang=de
The old city wall of Kranenburg.

[The Lawspeaker]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Straelen%2C_kerk_vanaf_centraal_plein_foto1_2010-05-05_18.10.JPG
The market square of the neighbouring town of Straelen.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Sonsbeck.JPG
A view over the village of Sonsbeek.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Xanten_Marienbaum_-_Uedemer_Hochwald_-_H%C3%BCgelgr%C3%A4ber_02_ies.jpg?uselang=de
A tumulus (barely visible) in the Uedemer Hochwald natural preserve.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Hexenturm_J%C3%BClich.jpg
The Heksentoren in Gulik. We have until now only been within the areas of what used to one Dutch county, Gelre, or Guelders, and now we are hopping back across the "border" to the part that hasn't been nicked yet. :D

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Spyck_elten.jpg
Looking at Hoog-Elten from Spyck. The other Spijk (in Guelders) is located in the direct vicinity of Spyck.

[The Lawspeaker]

I just thought I should dump it here. This thread can be used for debates, arguments and good old-fashioned shooting wars about the area. :cool:

Meh. The area seems to be quite interesting so this thread could be used (mainly by Dutch and Germans) as a kind of bookshelf where articles regarding the area (past, present or future), regarding the use of the Dutch language and related dialects in Germany and of course about Dutch-German relations can be posted. :thumbs up

[Geminus]

Come on, not only that the Dutch invent their own crazy language instead of speaking proper German, now they also want land from us :D
Don't mess with ze Germans, you all will have to move to us in the future, if the sea level is rising on and Netherlands is flooded ;)

[The Lawspeaker]

Come on, not only that the Dutch invent their own crazy language instead of speaking proper German, now they also want land from us :D
Don't mess with ze Germans, you all will have to move to us in the future, if the sea level is rising on and Netherlands is flooded ;)

Gc-enGqBzuI

[Geminus]

As long as you stay in your caravans you're welcome in Germany :D
But look, we Germans also have really done a lot in reconciliation:

http://www.dutchdailynews.com/german-soldier-returns-dutch-bike/

[The Lawspeaker]

As long as you stay in your caravans you're welcome in Germany :D
But look, we Germans also have really done a lot in reconciliation:

http://www.dutchdailynews.com/german-soldier-returns-dutch-bike/

I have heard about that one, yes. A while back some German veteran (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4148&highlight=rekening) had a guilty conscience over an unpaid bill so when he found the address of his creditor (the Stadsschouwburg Utrecht (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadsschouwburg_Utrecht)) he quickly wrote them a letter and paid the bill. :)

He was invited to pay them another visit but he was already quite old and no longer having the psychical capacity to go there.

[The Lawspeaker]

New highway brings Netherlands closer to Germany


Today, the Netherlands was able to bid farewell to a serious traffic bottleneck in Venlo caused by daily (heavy vehicle) traffic having to drive through the municipality to cross the border with Germany. With the official opening of the new A74 motorway, from now on there is a direct and fast connection to and from Germany. At just 2.5 km in length, the A74 is one of the shortest motorways in the Netherlands but it means reduced travelling times for road transport and puts an end to the traffic nuisance for the residents of Venlo.

With the unveiling of the boulders on the border between Venlo-Tegelen and Germany, Minister Schultz van Haegen (Infrastructure & the Environment) and her German fellow ministers Ramsauer and Voigtsberger, declared the new motorway that links the A73 to the German A61 officially open. From Thursday 5 April (6.00 a.m.) road users will be able to use the new link. German visitors to the Floriade which opens for the public on Thursday will benefit from the motorway immediately.

Minister Schultz: “The Netherlands and Germany are now even better connected to one another and Venlo has been relieved of the pressure of the one and a half million lorries that drive through the streets of the municipality every year. Our road network now has one bottleneck less and we have a fast connection to our major trading partner. That is good for accessibility and good for the economy.”



GOL-haIZbGc


Source: Dutch Daily News (http://www.dutchdailynews.com/new-highway-brings-netherlands-closer-to-germany/) (5 April 2012)

[The Lawspeaker]

At last... it will take away a lot of trouble for Venlo. It's a shame that it had to be build through a natural preserve but the builders seem to have minimised the damage.

Driving on the motorway:

TDY0tvaDA6E

This video covers the Venlo Bypass, consisting of the A73, A74 and German A61. The Dutch A74 opened April 4th, 2012.

Recorded: Thursday April 5th, 2012, 11.30 am.
video footage © aswchris 2012

[The Lawspeaker]

I was wondering it wouldn't be a good idea to extent the A73 (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rijksweg_73)motorway through Nijmegen city (in a tunnel) all the way to the German border together with an extension of the railway line and have the Germans build their part of the railway/motorway up to the Dutch border so they can be linked up. That would spread traffic more equally and make it easier for people travelling to/from Germany (and for freight, of course) to travel via Nijmegen instead of having to go to Arnhem or all the way South to Venlo.

The next stage could be that the A15 (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rijksweg_15) (which now stops all the way at Bemmel) could be linked up with the A12 (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rijksweg_12) between Bemmel and Zevenaar (the Netherlands) because the A15 could link Germany almost directly (via the A12) to Rotterdam.

[Mingle]

The region should probably be a bit larger if you want to include all the Low Frankish descended dialects in Germany:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/Rheinmaasl%C3%A4ndisch.PNG

The map I posted above is of Dutch's Meuse-Rhenish dialect.

I think some of the green areas that are colored in your map are [Low] Saxon dialects. East Frisia speaks a Saxon dialect called 'East Frisian' which is near identical to the dialect spoken in Groningen. The people there still identify as ethnic Frisian despite speaking Saxon. Is that the same case in Groningen? I only asked one Groninger and he only considered himself Groninger and Dutch and nothing else.

I'm confident that Lingen, Bentheim, Gronau, and Steinfert are also Saxon rather than Dutch speaking. Drenthe, Overijssel, and northern Gelderland are Saxon-speaking (or at least traditionally Saxon) so it wouldn't make sense for those listed places to be Dutch instead. I'm guessing that they were shaded green in your map because they speak the same Saxon dialects as those in the Netherlands, which is why East Frisia was colored green despite it never speaking Dutch. But its weird that the green dots are scattered in Germany on your map.

[The Lawspeaker]

The region should probably be a bit larger if you want to include all the Low Frankish descended dialects in Germany:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/Rheinmaasl%C3%A4ndisch.PNG

The map I posted above is of Dutch's Meuse-Rhenish dialect.

I think some of the green areas that are colored in your map are [Low] Saxon dialects. East Frisia speaks a Saxon dialect called 'East Frisian' which is near identical to the dialect spoken in Groningen. The people there still identify as ethnic Frisian despite speaking Saxon. Is that the same case in Groningen? I only asked one Groninger and he only considered himself Groninger and Dutch and nothing else.

I'm confident that Lingen, Bentheim, Gronau, and Steinfert are also Saxon rather than Dutch speaking. Drenthe, Overijssel, and northern Gelderland are Saxon-speaking (or at least traditionally Saxon) so it wouldn't make sense for those listed places to be Dutch instead. I'm guessing that they were shaded green in your map because they speak the same Saxon dialects as those in the Netherlands, which is why East Frisia was colored green despite it never speaking Dutch. But its weird that the green dots are scattered in Germany.

No. The people in Groningen consider themselves Groningers and distinct from the Frisians but there is an overriding "Northern Netherlands" sentiment in Drenthe, Groningen and Frisia as the central government has done a great job in alienating these peoples over the years. It's not an independence movement (there are some minor Frisian organisations) but there is certainly a regional sentiment. They now have a shared newspaper, a shared radio and TV-station and a shared party (https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partij_voor_het_Noorden).

[Mingle]

No. The people in Groningen consider themselves Groningers and distinct from the Frisians but there is an overriding "Northern Netherlands" sentiment in Drenthe, Groningen and Frisia as the central government has done a great job in alienating these peoples over the years. It's not an independence movement (there are some minor Frisian organisations) but there is certainly a regional sentiment.

That's a bit of a shame. In Germany, the Frisians have a strong consciousness of their Frisian identity despite speaking Saxon. The weird part is that many Germans from a Saxon (Low German) don't know that they are Saxons or anything about Saxon history/identity. He told me that they identify as ethnic German and Frisian at the same time i.e. seeing Frisians as a German subgroup. They have their own traditional cuisine and one aspect of that is tea. Germany is a heavy coffee drinking country, but in East Frisia, they mainly drink tea instead. They came from Dutch colonial companies to there. Their festivities include the traditional drinking of kinnertön (https://www.ostfriesland.de/typo3temp/fl_realurl_image/puppvisiet-Bohntjesopp_694527d36b_a0b60be552.jpg), (raisins in brandy) and pultstockspringen (https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polsstokverspringen). Setting up decorative gates (https://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/58695896.jpg) are characteristic of the region and they use kreiers (https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-on-mudflat-sleighs-called-kreier-bernd-l-and-thomas-force-their-way-54945839.html) for fun, these stuff are sleighs mainly used by shrimp fishers. Their variety of Saxon has Frisian substrates and is one of the more unique Saxon dialects, they have the Ostfriesische Landschaft which is the responsible for protecting their language. There is no Frisian history taught though, Germany in general is not interested in the regional identities present there, which would explain why many Low Germans are unconscious of their Saxon background. Those who come from a German state with 'Saxon' in its name (i.e. Lower Saxony) would see themselves as Saxon but those from Westphalia or northern Brandenburg probably wouldn't.

[The Lawspeaker]

That's a bit of a shame. In Germany, the Frisians have a strong consciousness of their Frisian identity despite speaking Saxon. The weird part is that many Germans from a Saxon (Low German) don't know that they are Saxons or anything about Saxon history/identity. He told me that they identify as ethnic German and Frisian at the same time i.e. seeing Frisians as a German subgroup. They have their own traditional cuisine and one aspect of that is tea. Germany is a heavy coffee drinking country, but in East Frisia, they mainly drink tea instead. They came from Dutch colonial companies to there. Their festivities include the traditional drinking of kinnertön (https://www.ostfriesland.de/typo3temp/fl_realurl_image/puppvisiet-Bohntjesopp_694527d36b_a0b60be552.jpg), (raisins in brandy) and pultstockspringen (https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polsstokverspringen). Setting up decorative gates (https://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/58695896.jpg) are characteristic of the region and they use kreiers (https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-on-mudflat-sleighs-called-kreier-bernd-l-and-thomas-force-their-way-54945839.html) for fun, these stuff are sleighs mainly used by shrimp fishers. Their variety of Saxon has Frisian substrates and is one of the more unique Saxon dialects, they have the Ostfriesische Landschaft which is the responsible for protecting their language. There is no Frisian history taught though, Germany in general is not interested in the regional identities present there, which would explain why many Low Germans are unconscious of their Saxon background. Those who come from a German state with 'Saxon' in its name (i.e. Lower Saxony) would see themselves as Saxon but those from Westphalia or northern Brandenburg probably wouldn't.
Here.. it is funny: we used to have a confederal republic which morphed into an overtly centralised monarchy. The results of that are still felt in both the far North and in the East (Twenthe and the Achterhoek - both traditionally Catholic with a large Protestant group in the latter - both regions were traditionally poor). As for the South: they were always put on the backburner and didn't have much to say in the affairs of state until well in the 19th century. So that explains why there is more of a regional sentiment in the Netherlands both in a positive and in a negative sense. Positive in the sense that people value their dialect, their culture, their origins. Negative in the fact that everybody hates Holland.

[Mingle]

Here.. it is funny: we use to have a confederal republic which morphed into an overtly centralised monarchy. The results of that are still felt in both the far North and in the East (Twenthe and the Achterhoek - both traditionally Catholic with a large Protestant group in the latter - both regions were traditionally poor). As for the South: they were always put on the backburner and didn't have much to say in the affairs of state until well in the 19th century. So that explains why there is more of a regional sentiment in the Netherlands both in a positive and in a negative sense. Positive in the sense that people value their dialect, their culture, their origins. Negative in the fact that everybody hates Holland.

Do people from the Saxon-speaking regions (Drenthe, Overijssel, northern Gerderland) have any form of Saxon identity? There were two or so (mostly inactive) Netherlands-based users here that put Saxon as their ethnicity (as opposed to Dutch) in the past and Dutch Low Saxon seems to have a standardized form. Or do people just have regional identities there too (similar to the case with Grongingen)? Do most Dutch people know they are Salian Franks?

Is Utrecht a Catholic-Protestant mix or is it overwhelmingly Catholic? Since it borders Holland, I imagine it to be very liberal, but your comments seem to suggest otherwise.

Also, do you know what part of the Netherlands most people in Flevoland are and what religion is dominant there? Since Flevoland is a new province, I'm guessing they all speak Standard Dutch and don't have a strong regional identity?

[The Lawspeaker]

Do people from the Saxon-speaking regions (Drenthe, Overijssel, northern Gerderland) have any form of Saxon identity? There were two or so (mostly inactive) Netherlands-based users here that put Saxon as their ethnicity (as opposed to Dutch) in the past and Dutch Low Saxon seems to have a standardized form. Or do people just have regional identities there too (similar to the case with Grongingen)? Do most Dutch people know they are Salian Franks?

Is Utrecht a Catholic-Protestant mix or is it overwhelmingly Catholic? Since it borders Holland, I imagine it to be very liberal, but your comments seem to suggest otherwise.

Also, do you know what part of the Netherlands most people in Flevoland are and what religion is dominant there? Since Flevoland is a new province, I'm guessing they all speak Standard Dutch and don't have a strong regional identity?

Yes.. they have one to an extent. I also noticed that their communities are tight-knit and not really open to "foreigners" (everybody not from the area). As for Utrecht: it used to be Catholic until after the Reformation (there are some Catholic villages like Hoogland which have now been incorporated in majority Protestant or secular towns like Amersfoort and taken over by urban development or like Bunschoten which is paired with Protestant Spakenburg), now it's almost majority secular with the other largest group being Protestant and, outside the city of Utrecht, actually somewhat conservative. Even more so because we have the Bible Belt running right through it. In Utrecht there is, unfortunately, strong Hollandification as Hollanders and foreigners are moving in en masse, so the dialects are falling apart as we speak (except for rural communities).

Flevoland can be anything. It's a new province. There is no set identity but a lot of people came in from Holland, particularly Amsterdam.