Macedonia - Timeless

[Crn Volk]

http://www.macedonia-timeless.com/

http://www.macedonia-timeless.com/Pictures/Pictures/03.jpg

http://www.macedonia-timeless.com/Pictures/Pictures/08.jpg

http://www.macedonia-timeless.com/Pictures/Pictures/17.jpg

http://www.macedonia-timeless.com/Pictures/Pictures/34.jpg

http://www.macedonia-timeless.com/Pictures/Pictures/39.jpg

[Queen B]

http://www.macedonia-timeless.com/Pictures/Pictures/08.jpg


Oh I love Greek figurines with pointy boobies
Quite popular in Greek art , especially in Cyclades and Mycenea :fponder:

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/LX/PhiFigurines.jpg
http://galenf.com/1/greece/mycenae599.jpg
http://www.greek-thesaurus.gr/images/p2/fem_marble_statue.JPG
http://www.greek-thesaurus.gr/images/p2/harp_player.JPG
http://www.greek-thesaurus.gr/images/p2/marble_figurine.JPG
http://www.greek-thesaurus.gr/images/p2/Marble%20cycladic%20figurine%204.JPG
http://www.hellenicfoundation.com/Crete/Iraklia/Crete-Museum-figures-lg.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5007/5244587449_5784fedddc.jpg

[Queen B]

http://www.macedonia-timeless.com/Pictures/Pictures/34.jpg

A lovely symbol of Greek art
:lightbul:

Mykonos
http://www.history-of-macedonia.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Vergina_04.jpg
Sparta
http://www.history-of-macedonia.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/spartanhoplite.jpg
http://www.history-of-macedonia.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/kraterverginasun.jpg
Athena and Hermes Pots
http://www.history-of-macedonia.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_heraklesolympianspyxis026xo8.jpg
Greek Amphoreus from Magna Grecia
http://i551.photobucket.com/albums/ii459/history_of_macedonia/Sun%20of%20Vergina/greek_amphora.jpg
Oympia
http://i551.photobucket.com/albums/ii459/history_of_macedonia/Sun%20of%20Vergina/heracles_olympia.jpg
Athens
http://i551.photobucket.com/albums/ii459/history_of_macedonia/Sun%20of%20Vergina/athenian_hoplites_16.jpg
In a temple near Marathon
http://i551.photobucket.com/albums/ii459/history_of_macedonia/Sun%20of%20Vergina/temple_nemesis_thamnus.jpg
Greek Hoplites
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ii459/history_of_macedonia/Sun%20of%20Vergina/hoplitevspersianssixtyfour.jpg
Perseus
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ii459/history_of_macedonia/Sun%20of%20Vergina/H14Perseus.jpg
Xanthipus, father of Pericles (Athens)
http://history-of-macedonia.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_xanthippus008di7.jpg

Athens - Propylaia
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/5346/acropolispropylaia001az7.jpg

Some ancient Greek coins...
http://i551.photobucket.com/albums/ii459/history_of_macedonia/Sun%20of%20Vergina/greek_coins.jpg

[Queen B]

http://www.macedonia-timeless.com/Pictures/Pictures/39.jpg

Tsk tsk tsk, Suprise! Some Golden Greek masks :fponder:

http://www.uncp.edu/home/rwb/mycenae_mask.jpg
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2607/5705121914_59f19c22fd.jpg
http://www.memo.fr/Media/Maque_or.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/2n7m8oy.jpg
http://www.komvos.edu.gr/masks/images/masks/g04.jpg
http://www.komvos.edu.gr/masks/images/masks/g05.jpg
http://proteus.brown.edu/greekpast/admin/image.html?imageid=3112898

[Vojnik]

I love the Macedonia timeless comercials. They capture the Macedonian people, culture and history wonderfully.

[Midori]

A lovely symbol of Greek art
:lightbul:
Some ancient Greek coins...
http://i551.photobucket.com/albums/ii459/history_of_macedonia/Sun%20of%20Vergina/greek_coins.jpg

Yeah that's a Greek symbol. I think it represents the 12 Olympian gods

[Crn Volk]

yes, ancient Macedonian symbols are found in the Republic of Macedonia aswell...

[Queen B]

Yeah that's a Greek symbol. I think it represents the 12 Olympian gods

The specific symbol is a protected Greek symbol under the World Intellectual Property Organization, as well.

A symbol widely used all around Greece, even before 400 BC

But, you see, half of the commercial is about Greek art :lol:

[Romanion]

"For such a small country, Macedonia boasts a bewilderingly complex history, one which defies neat explanations and which has kept researchers and regular folks constantly occupied with investigating, and debating, their findings. The country's territory has been continuously settled through all periods of human civilization, and has been both the center of great empires and a decisive battleground where rival powers sparred, including the ancient kingdoms of Macedon and its contemporaries, the Roman empire, Byzantium, medieval Bulgarian, Serb and Macedonian kingdoms, the Crusaders, the Ottoman empire and the contemporary Balkan states."

http://www.macedonia-timeless.com/Links/History.aspx

When was there a Macedonian Medieval kingdom?

[Vojnik]

Everything you see in the videos are artefacts found on the territory of Macedonia or they are cultural objects of the ancient Macedonians.

Give me an ancient source which says Ancient Macedonian culture is Greek.

z2cfsCJCvXo

[Romanion]

Give me an ancient source which says Ancient Macedonian culture is Greek.



Dandilion just proved artifacts you say are Greek.

[Vojnik]

Quintus Curtius Rufus
Roman Historian:


[17] As the Macedonians defended themselves stoutly, many of the Greeks who pushed on rashly were killed. 18.12.1-2

This is one of many quotes from ancient Historians that distinguish Ancient Macedonians from Ancient Hellenes.

[Romanion]

Quintus Curtius Rufus
Roman Historian:



This is one of many quotes from ancient Historians that distinguish Ancient Macedonians from Ancient Hellenes.

Out of context :thumb001:

Macedonians were participating in the Olympic games since 504 BC, something only allowed to Greeks.

[Queen B]

Give me an ancient source which says Ancient Macedonian culture is Greek.


First of all, those Greek arts should be enough, considering that there are BEFORE the Macedonian empire, starting from Cycladic art, Mycenean and Minoan, and then Athenians, Spartans, etc.
I'd love to see other cultures using similar golden masks, that figurines and the Vergina sun, apart from Greeks (all over Greece), or earlier than Greeks.

Also, since this is not enough (:lol:) , and since it is NOT enough that Macedonians took part in the Olympic games (that was only for Greeks), since is not enough their language, their names, their customs, and their gods,arts and all that stuff being Greek....

--
Alexander I, speaking to Athenians, by Herodotos


Men of Athens… Had I not greatly AT HEART the COMMON welfare of GREECE I should not have come to tell you; but I AM MYSELF GREEK by descend, and I would not willingly see Greece exchange freedom for. …If you prosper in this war, forget not to do something for my freedom; consider the risk I have run, out of zeal for the GREEK CAUSE, to acquaint you with what Mardonius intends, and to save you from being surprised by the barbarians. I am ALEXANDER of MACEDON.‘

Herodotus, The Histories, 9.45,

--

Again by Herodotos (to Persians)


Tell your king who sent you how his GREEK viceroy of Macedonia has received you hospitably…

--
About Phillip 2 of Macedon


Every seat in the theater was taken when Philip appeared wearing a white cloak and by his express orders his bodyguard held away from him and followed only at a distance, since he wanted to show publicly that he was protected by the goodwill of all the Hellenes, and had no need of a guard of spearmen.

By Diodoros of Sicily 16.93.1
---

Alexander the Great and his letter to the king of Persians


Your ancestors invaded Macedonia and the rest of Greece and did US great harm, though WE had done them no prior injury [...] I have been appointed hegemon of the Greeks [...]

Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander II,14,4

---

Alexander the Great again


There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service — but how different is their cause from ours ! They will be fighting for pay— and not much of it at that; WE on the contrary shall fight for GREECE, and our hearts will be in it. As for our FOREIGN troops —Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians,Agrianes — they are the best and stoutest soldiers of Europe, and they will find as their opponents the slackest and softest of the tribes of Asia.

Arrian again

---


He set the Persian palace on fire, even though parmenio urged him to save it, arguing that it was not right to destroy his own property, and that the Asians would not thus devote themselves to him, if he seemed determined not to rule Asia, but only to pass through as a conqueror.
but Alexander replied that he intended to punish the persians for their invasion of Greece, the destruction of Athens, the burning of the temples, and all manner of terrible things done to the Greeks: because of these things, he was exacting revenge.
but Alexander does not seem to me to have acted prudently, nor can it be regarded as any kind of punishment upon Persians of long ago.

Arrian again, about the burn of Persepolis

---

About Alexander speaking to his comrades


Alexander called a meeting of his generals the next day. He told them that no city was more hateful to the Greeks than Persepolis, the capital of the old kings of Persia, the city from which troops without number had poured forth, from which first Darius and then Xerxes had waged an unholy war on Europe. To appease the spirits of their forefathers they should wipe it out, he said.

by Quintus Curtius Rufus 5.6.1

---


But he said, ‘If I were not Alexandros, I should be Diogenes’; that is to say: `If it were not my purpose to combine barbarian things with things HELLENIC, to traverse and civilize every continent, to search out the uttermost parts of land and sea, TO PUSH THE BOUNDS OF MACEDONIA TO THE FARTHEST OCEAN, AND TO DISSEMINATE AND SHOWER THE BLESSINGS OF HELLENIC JUSTICE and peace over every nation, I should not be content to sit quietly in the luxury of idle power, but I should emulate the frugality of Diogenes. But as things are, forgive me Diogenes, that I imitate Herakles, and emulate Perseus, and follow in the footsteps of Dionysos, the divine author and progenitor of my family, and DESIRE THAT VICTORIOUS HELLENES SHOULD DANCE AGAIN in India..

Plutarch's Moralia, On the Fortune of Alexander, 332A

----

Dedication from Alexander to Athena (Greek Goddess, maybe?)


Alexander, son of Philip, and the Greeks, except the Lacedaemonians, from the barbarian inhabitans in Asia

Arrian, I, 16, 10

----

Phillip V of Macedon


For on many occasions when I and the other Greeks sent embassies to you begging you to remove from your statutes the law empowering you to get booty from booty, you replied that you would rather remove Aetolia from Aetolia than that law

Polyvius, 18.4.8

---

Macedonian ambassador to Aitolians


The Aitolians, the Akarnanians, the Macedonians, men of the SAME speech, are united or disunited by trivial causes that arise from time to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks wage and will wage eternal war; for they are enemies by the will of nature, which is eternal, and not from reasons that change from day to day.


Titus Livius, From the Foundation of the City 31

---

Strabo


''Estin men oun Hellas kai i Makedonia''

(Macedonia is also part of Greece)


:coffee:

[Romanion]

Also the Pella curse tablet;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pella_curse_tablet

Macedonians spoke Doric Greek.

[Midori]

Everything you see in the videos are artefacts found on the territory of Macedonia or they are cultural objects of the ancient Macedonians.

Give me an ancient source which says Ancient Macedonian culture is Greek.


Dude are you serious? Everyone knows the Ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe

[Ivo Arandur]

I'd love to see other cultures using similar golden masks


Actually, Bulgarian museums are full with Thracian golden masks identical to the ones you posted :) Now, that may be Greek influence on the Thracians or it may be not - in any case that's not important...what's important here is that Greeks sometime sound exactly like the Macedonians (I mean the modern ones) - claiming that all people that ever lived on the Balkans were Greek and that all culture ever produced on the Balkans was also Greek :coffee:

Tone it down a bit, will you? ;)

[Queen B]

Tone it down a bit, will you? ;)

When it comes to the history of my people and my country, I will use the tone I like. I am respectful, and I post proofs and artifacts.

[Crn Volk]

"For such a small country, Macedonia boasts a bewilderingly complex history, one which defies neat explanations and which has kept researchers and regular folks constantly occupied with investigating, and debating, their findings. The country's territory has been continuously settled through all periods of human civilization, and has been both the center of great empires and a decisive battleground where rival powers sparred, including the ancient kingdoms of Macedon and its contemporaries, the Roman empire, Byzantium, medieval Bulgarian, Serb and Macedonian kingdoms, the Crusaders, the Ottoman empire and the contemporary Balkan states."

http://www.macedonia-timeless.com/Links/History.aspx

When was there a Macedonian Medieval kingdom?

Tsar Samuel's empire was a Slavic Macedonian state, with it's capital in Ohrid, Macedonia.

[Γέλως]

Dude are you serious? Everyone knows the Ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe
Hey Loneshadow, would you tell that at a random person in Skopje? :tongue

[Midori]

Hey Loneshadow, would you tell that at a random person in Skopje? :tongue

Some things are better left unsaid :D

[Romanion]

Tsar Samuel's empire was a Slavic Macedonian state, with it's capital in Ohrid, Macedonia.

It was Bulgarian actually.

[Vojnik]

It was Bulgarian actually.

Actually, There has no mentioning of a so called 'Bulgarian empire' anywhere. I think that is a modern invention.

[Romanion]

Actually, There has no mentioning of a so called 'Bulgarian empire' anywhere. I think that is a modern invention.

Are you serious?

[Crn Volk]

It was Bulgarian actually.

From an independent source;

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/blog/samuel.html

[Petros Houhoulis]

yes, ancient Macedonian symbols are found in the Republic of Macedonia aswell...

Only if Ancient Macedonia had ethnic symbols... Only if any Ancient Greek people had ethnic symbols...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergina_Star#Interpretations


The significance of the Vergina Sun is unclear. Archaeologists do not agree whether the sun was a symbol of Macedon, an emblem of Philip's Argead dynasty, a religious symbol representing the Twelve Gods of Olympus, or simply a decorative design.

It was not a symbol of Macedon, since no ancient author mentions the slightest reference to it - unlike the Roman eagle (aquila)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_eagle

It was neither Philips' "Argead" dynasty symbol, since no starburst from the era of Philip II survives - actually the whole starburst begins to appear in Macedonia AFTER the conquests of Alexander the Great at still MOSTLY in the Asian Seleukid empire (the first Macedonian coins sporting such emblems are Seleukid - sporting earlier Babylonian/Persian designs) and this happens for a reason.

The starburst CANNOT BE representing the Twelve Gods of Olympus. Again, there is no reference about it with ancient authors.

It was NOT a decorative design either... Except in Europe... Because this is what it was:

http://www.livius.org/a/turkey/nemrud/nemrud_W_terrace12.JPG

It would be difficult to explain it to you, because it is not European in origin... And as such... it is definately not Macedonian...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Why do you have brat Ljube as your avatar? He's considered a traitor here

He follows a long list of traitors... Misirkov... Cento... Tempo... Grigorov... Georgievski...

All of your national "heroes" have been flirting with treachery, it seems... And you keep swapping heroes with traitors in your pantheon of absurdity at an amazing pace...

Is this guy a traitor now?

j48WLgCQHuo

"He says that the myth of Alexander the Great is a big success of the Greek secret service"!!!

Yeah right, it was indeed a century ago... Read the "Salonica, city of ghosts" of Mark Mazower to get a glimpse of what your former president means...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Quintus Curtius Rufus
Roman Historian:



This is one of many quotes from ancient Historians that distinguish Ancient Macedonians from Ancient Hellenes.

You'd better not mention Quintus Curtius Rufus' track record:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintus_Curtius_Rufus


His work is fluidly written, and while superficial study reveals the authors errors regarding geography, chronology and technical military knowledge, a detailed study reveals his focusing instead on character and protests against those Emperors of his times whom he considered tyrants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintus_Curtius_Rufus#Historical_Value_of_his_Work


W W Tarn slated him for his "complete lack of historical principle" - a view that John Yardley suggests has a lot to do with how Curtius discredited Alexander.[1] Historical novelist Mary Renault, in the preface to her biography of Alexander "Fire from Heaven", discusses the various sources which she studied in preparation for her work, expressing considerable exasperation with Curtius who "had access to invaluable primary sources, now lost", which in her opinion he misunderstood and garbled.

Quintus Curtius Rufus did never visit Macedonia, he wrote all of his work while stationed in Germany, and people suggest that his main aim was not Alexander the Great but the contemporary Roman emperors.

Did this guy wrote about Ancient Macedonia and Alexander the Great at all???

[Vojnik]

Diodorus Siculus an Ancient Greek Historian.


[14] A few of the Illyrians and the Thracians joined the alliance (with the Greeks) because of their hatred of the Macedonians. 18.11.1-2


[16] Now that this great force had been added to the Athenians, the Greeks, who far outnumbered the Macedonians, were successful. 18.12.4


[18] Antiphilus, the Greek commander, having defeated the Macedonians in a glorious battle played a waiting game, remaining in Thessaly and watching for the enemy to move. The affairs of the Greeks were thus in thriving condition, but since the Macedonians had command of the sea, the Athenians made ready other ships… 18.15.7-8.


[19] Then after such a combat I have described, the battle was broken off, as the scales of victory swung in favour of the Macedonians. More then 500 of the Greeks were killed in the battle, and 130 of the Macedonians. 18.17.5

[jerney]

All I know is that when I asked a "Macedonian" classmate of mine the timeless question, "Why did your people steal the name Macedonia from the Greeks?", she really didn't like it :(

[Petros Houhoulis]

Everything you see in the videos are artefacts found on the territory of Macedonia or they are cultural objects of the ancient Macedonians.

Give me an ancient source which says Ancient Macedonian culture is Greek.

z2cfsCJCvXo

Great evidence. These people have a democracy and live in cities the others have monarchy and have few cities. So they are different people, Borza says.

Unfortunately his classification renders the Ancient Lakedemonians as non-Greek. King Leonidas of Thermopylae fame was a king. Sparta was not really a city - maybe it was during the Trojan era, but during the classical era it didn't even have walls. The Lakedemonian military elites were rather few, outnumbered by their helot slaves 10 to 1.

Unfortunately, even Borza has been forced to back down in his claims. He wants to preserve the democratic character of the Greeks by not allowing savages into them, but the Lakedemonians were indeed savages as the movie 300 portrays them, and, unlike the Athenians, they were actually Greek...

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/geography/qt/072509IdentityofIoniansbySallieGoetsch.htm


Primary Sources and Select Passages:
Strabo 14.1.7 - Milesians.
Herodotus Histories Book I:
Greek Races
Herodotus Histories Book I.56. By these lines when they came to him Crœsus was pleased more than by all the rest, for he supposed that a mule would never be ruler of the Medes instead of a man, and accordingly that he himself and his heirs would never cease from their rule. Then after this he gave thought to inquire which people of the Hellenes he should esteem the most powerful and gain over to himself as friends. And inquiring he found that the Lacedemonians and the Athenians had the pre-eminence, the first of the Dorian and the others of the Ionian race. For these were the most eminent races in ancient time, the second being a Pelasgian and the first a Hellenic race: and the one never migrated from its place in any direction, while the other was very exceedingly given to wanderings; for in the reign of Deucalion this race dwelt in Pthiotis, and in the time of Doros the son of Hellen in the land lying below Ossa and Olympos, which is called Histiaiotis; and when it was driven from Histiaiotis by the sons of Cadmos, it dwelt in Pindos and was called Makednian; and thence it moved afterwards to Dryopis, and from Dryopis it came finally to Peloponnesus, and began to be called Dorian.

So, if Borza can prove that the Macedonians are not Greek, because they had no democracy and they did not live in cities like the Athenians, what happens when I prove that the Ionians (of whom the Athenians were only a small part) were not Greeks either?

Furthermore, what happens when I prove that the Athenians used to have kings like the Macedonians, instead of democracy, and point out that Athens was not a city during the Trojan war? So, the Athenians BECAME GREEKS when they became democratic and when they built a city? Before that... They belonged to a different ethnos?

(Answer: Yes, the Tyrsenians - see Etruscans)

Beyond that, you claim today to have a Democratic regime and you tend to migrate to cities every single day (not to mention what you are doing to those poor cities) so, according to Borzas' formula, have you become Greeks nowadays as well?

If you EVER comprehend the absurdity in the back of your brain, you'll be flabbergasted for the rest of your existence.

Poor fellas, just stop messing with history. You merely produce comedical results. Not that anything else you do has a different outcome...

[Petros Houhoulis]

All I know is that when I asked a "Macedonian" classmate of mine the timeless question, "Why did your people steal the name Macedonia from the Greeks?", she really didn't like it :(

You should have asked him/her "Where does the word Macedonia comes from"

Every time they come up with a different answer.

[jerney]

You should have asked him/her "Where does the word Macedonia comes from"

Every time they come up with a different answer.

lol she didn't even give me a chance to speak. After I asked the question she went on for ten minutes ranting about Greeks and how Greece is the bully of the Balkans :confused:

[Petros Houhoulis]

Diodorus Siculus an Ancient Greek Historian.

In the second and third of those quotes the Athenians appear as a different ethnicity as well...

If you retrieve conclusions from battle formations you shall end up with many such surprises. The Thebans were fighting on the Persian side during the Persian wars, along with the Ionians of Asia Minor and the Macedonians. I wonder why don't you make use of the battle formations of that era...

[Queen B]

Diodorus Siculus an Ancient Greek Historian.


In the second and third of those quotes the Athenians appear as a different ethnicity as well...

If you retrieve conclusions from battle formations you shall end up with many such surprises. The Thebans were fighting on the Persian side during the Persian wars, along with the Ionians of Asia Minor and the Macedonians. I wonder why don't you make use of the battle formations of that era...

I also wrote some quotes from Diodorus Sicilus but Mkd decided not to answer on my post :coffee::wink

[Petros Houhoulis]

lol she didn't even give me a chance to speak. After I asked the question she went on for ten minutes ranting about Greeks and how Greece is the bully of the Balkans :confused:

Ask her what is their most famous war/uprising in their recent history, and when she shall tell you about the Ilinden uprising, ask her how many Greeks did they kill or how many of them the Greeks killed during that uprising. When she shall tell you that they fought the Ottoman Turks and that the Ottoman Turks massacred thousands of unarmed civilians and burned hundreds of their villages.

Then ask her if the Greeks ever massacred thousands of their people and burnt hundreds of their villages, and she shall tell you about the Greek civil war and the napalm bombs. Then ask her when did Greece invent the napalm bomb, and why the planes bombing their villages were actually British and U.S.American...

You can run them in circles for ages. In the end the Greek authorities did never run a rampage upon them (except from the second Balkan war - and this was still mutual between Greeks and Bulgarians since my town of Serres was burnt back then) and they did never attempt to form a political party to represent them in the Greek parliament until the 1980's, with little success (they have slumped from ~7.500 votes to ~2.000 votes recently) and they are still crying about half to one million of a minority in Greece, sometimes even more...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Tsar Samuel's empire was a Slavic Macedonian state, with it's capital in Ohrid, Macedonia.

Except that all of the contemporary sources mention that he was a Bulgarian, either these were Eastern Roman or Arabic. In fact even you found an inscription from his time where the word Bulgarian was clearly written, but this inscription... Simply vanished...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czar_Samuel


Samuel of Bulgaria

...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czar_Samuel#Nomenclature


Nomenclature

Samuel's empire had its heartlands around Ohrid, west and southwest of this earlier cultural center of the First Bulgarian Empire. Thus Yugoslav historian George Ostrogorsky distinguished Samuel's Empire from the earlier Bulgarian Empire, referring to it as a "Macedonian Empire", although he claims that it was politically and ecclesiastically a direct descendant of the empire of Symeon and Peter, and was regarded by Samuel and the Byzantines as being the Bulgarian Empire.[138] Some historians of his school, such as the Serbian scholar Anastasijević, claimed even that Samuel ruled a separate Slavic Empire founded as an anti-Bulgarian rebellion.[139] This Yugoslav theory is now rejected by the modern Serbian historians.[140][141] It is still held only in the Republic of Macedonia, where the official state doctrine refers to a "Macedonian Slavic", or even only "Macedonian" Empire.[142] This controversy is ahistorical, as it projects modern ethnic distinctions onto the past.[143]

BANANA

You people live in your own universe...

[Romanion]

I also wrote some quotes from Diodorus Sicilus but Mkd decided not to answer on my post :coffee::wink

They beleive there is a continuous Macedonian idenity in their region from Alexander to the present, trying to reaons with these types of people is not worth it. Just take it for the comedic value.

I understand not every slavo-Macedonian thinks this way and loneshark is a nice example. Unfortunatly I believe moderates like her are marginalized by the right wingers like the some people here.

[Crn Volk]

lol she didn't even give me a chance to speak. After I asked the question she went on for ten minutes ranting about Greeks and how Greece is the bully of the Balkans :confused:

You are Germanic right? Why did Charlemeigne steal the history of the Roman empire? Remember Slavic tribes arrived in the Balkans at around the same time as Germanic tribes arrived in central Europe. The argument of the Greeks and Albanians is that we are Slavs who arrived later on the scene, and therefore we have no place in Macedonia. Well 1,500 years of continuous habitation, not to mention the mixing which has occured over this time between the Slavic inhabitants and native Balkan inhabitants has produced the modern Macedonian nation, not to mention the Bulgarians, Serbs, Croats etc. who are all products of Slav/native Balkan mixing. We have inherited the name Macedonia because we are the offspring of the Slavic/native Balkan admixture, and so we celebrate both our ancient heroes such as Alexander and our Slavic heroes such as Samuil, Kliment, Naum, Kiril, Metodij etc etc etc.

[Romanion]

You are Germanic right? Why did Charlemeigne steal the history of the Roman empire? Remember Slavic tribes arrived in the Balkans at around the same time as Germanic tribes arrived in central Europe. The argument of the Greeks and Albanians is that we are Slavs who arrived later on the scene, and therefore we have no place in Macedonia. Well 1,500 years of continuous habitation, not to mention the mixing which has occured over this time between the Slavic inhabitants and native Balkan inhabitants has produced the modern Macedonian nation, not to mention the Bulgarians, Serbs, Croats etc. who are all products of Slav/native Balkan mixing. We have inherited the name Macedonia because we are the offspring of the Slavic/native Balkan admixture, and so we celebrate both our ancient heroes such as Alexander and our Slavic heroes such as Samuil, Kliment, Naum, Kiril, Metodij etc etc etc.

Mixing didn't produce the modern Macedonian nation, Cento did. Alot of romanticising here.

[Petros Houhoulis]

You are Germanic right? Why did Charlemeigne steal the history of the Roman empire? Remember Slavic tribes arrived in the Balkans at around the same time as Germanic tribes arrived in central Europe. The argument of the Greeks and Albanians is that we are Slavs who arrived later on the scene, and therefore we have no place in Macedonia. Well 1,500 years of continuous habitation, not to mention the mixing which has occured over this time between the Slavic inhabitants and native Balkan inhabitants has produced the modern Macedonian nation, not to mention the Bulgarians, Serbs, Croats etc. who are all products of Slav/native Balkan mixing. We have inherited the name Macedonia because we are the offspring of the Slavic/native Balkan admixture, and so we celebrate both our ancient heroes such as Alexander and our Slavic heroes such as Samuil, Kliment, Naum, Kiril, Metodij etc etc etc.

Small detail:

You don't live in Macedonia!

The kingdom of Ancient Macedonia, as shown in wikipedia:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Macedonian_Kingdom.jpg

A detailed map of Macedonia through the ages:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/HistMac.gif

Notice how your fiefdom:

A) is NOT really part of the ancient kingdom of Macedonia.
B) The half of it had been incorporated in an administrative unit with the name Macedonia by the Romans - together with the most of Thessaly and the half of modern Albania
C) Suddently the rest of your fiefdom is also incorporated into a modern version of Macedonia, which is "modern".

In reality, your people did never live but in the very fringes of Ancient Macedonia. Nevertheless, as the Byzantine period map reveals, the Macedonians fled Macedonia and migrated to Thrace, mostly outside of the current Greek borders, which is not quite a proof that your people merged with the Macedonians. It is more likely a proof that your people expelled the Macedonians from Macedonia until you were expelled from Macedonia in turn.

P.S.

The fact that Charlemagne stole the Roman tradition does not result at any historian acknowledging him as a Roman. His empire was not the Roman empire after all, but the "Holy Roman Empire". Quite a difference...

...Just as Misirkov declared himself as a Macedonian-Slav once...

Anyway, if you merged with any ancient people, those were the Paeonians the Dardanians and the Triballians:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonia_(kingdom)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi

Why don't you celebrate... Any Paeonian, Dardanian or Triballian heroes? They actually lived in your lands during the antiquity, but you barely remember them...

Furthermore, what is this?

urHi0m41HcQ

...And why does your former Prime minister (currently in Bulgarian mode) disagree?

j48WLgCQHuo

[Crn Volk]

Mixing didn't produce the modern Macedonian nation, Cento did. Alot of romanticising here.

You are talking about politics vs ethnicity. It is plain to see for all that today's Macedonians are not pure Slavs, as the Greeks would have all believe. We don't resemble Poles, Russians or Slovaks for example. Perhaps the original Slav settlers did in the 6th century, but over time the Slavs mixed with the natives to produce today's Macedonians (including the Slavic speakers of Greece). Our appearance is proof of this. We don't need DNA tests to tell us this, although they do in any case. Our language also proves this, as Macedonian although being a Slavic language, has many non-Slavic loan words. Now in terms of modern nation states, and when they came into existence, this is debatable. I contend that the Macedonian national revival began well before Cento and the 1940s. I would place it in the 19th century with figures such as Pulevski, Misirkov, Pejcinovic and Cupovski. This was further developed in the 20th century by figures such as Koneski, Ristovski and Cento. I see you have taken a liking to Cento. He was a great man and hero of Macedonia, but he was only one of many historical figures influencing the development of the Macedonian state and nation.

[Crn Volk]

Small detail:

You don't live in Macedonia!

The kingdom of Ancient Macedonia, as shown in wikipedia:

The Macedonian nation does not end at the current Greek-Macedonian border. I am from the Pelagonia region of Macedonia, but many ethnic Macedonians, including some of my relatives and friends come from places like Lerin/Florina, Voden/Edessa and Kostur/Kastoria. These places are all firmly part of the ancient Macedonia kingdom. All of these people I refer to speak the modern Macedonian language and identify as Macedonians like me.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Mixing didn't produce the modern Macedonian nation, Cento did. Alot of romanticising here.

There was a lot of mixing, but what the mixing produced is exactly what Ljubčo Georgievski suggested, and this is exactly why Goce Delcev and Dame Gruev were handing out death sentences to all of those who claimed that the blood of Alexander the Great was running in them...

j48WLgCQHuo

They just hope that another melting in the pot would result to a brand new mix. Unfortunately the times are different, and the cult of the past won't bring the same results again. In fact, they didn't bring those results in the first place. The real reasons that produced the original mixing are obscure even to Ljubčo Georgievski... Who (incidentally) was the first important politician in the fiefdom who tolerated (if not fostered) the antiquisation campaign...

[Romanion]

You are talking about politics vs ethnicity. It is plain to see for all that today's Macedonians are not pure Slavs, as the Greeks would have all believe. We don't resemble Poles, Russians or Slovaks for example. Perhaps the original Slav settlers did in the 6th century, but over time the Slavs mixed with the natives to produce today's Macedonians (including the Slavic speakers of Greece). Our appearance is proof of this. We don't need DNA tests to tell us this, although they do in any case. Our language also proves this, as Macedonian although being a Slavic language, has many non-Slavic loan words. Now in terms of modern nation states, and when they came into existence, this is debatable. I contend that the Macedonian national revival began well before Cento and the 1940s. I would place it in the 19th century with figures such as Pulevski, Misirkov, Pejcinovic and Cupovski. This was further developed in the 20th century by figures such as Koneski, Ristovski and Cento. I see you have taken a liking to Cento. He was a great man and hero of Macedonia, but he was only one of many historical figures influencing the development of the Macedonian state and nation.

Cento was the one who established schools and taught the slavs about Macedonism in the 1940s. Before him the idea of a Macedonian ethnicity was just that, an idea held by some people. FYROM started in the 1940's, not before that.

There is no such thing as "pure" races. Countries are not based on race either, there is no french, english, german, race. Countries are based of culture, and FYROM is a slavic culture. Ancient Macedon was Hellenic and the incomming slavic peopels changed that. Whether you want to admit it or not your people do have moe than alot in common with bulgairans.

[Crn Volk]

And yet Georgievski was responsible for Bulgaria officially recognising the Macedonian language in 1999;

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Joint_Declaration_of_22_February_1999

[Petros Houhoulis]

You are talking about politics vs ethnicity. It is plain to see for all that today's Macedonians are not pure Slavs, as the Greeks would have all believe. We don't resemble Poles, Russians or Slovaks for example. Perhaps the original Slav settlers did in the 6th century, but over time the Slavs mixed with the natives to produce today's Macedonians (including the Slavic speakers of Greece). Our appearance is proof of this. We don't need DNA tests to tell us this, although they do in any case. Our language also proves this, as Macedonian although being a Slavic language, has many non-Slavic loan words. Now in terms of modern nation states, and when they came into existence, this is debatable. I contend that the Macedonian national revival began well before Cento and the 1940s. I would place it in the 19th century with figures such as Pulevski, Misirkov, Pejcinovic and Cupovski. This was further developed in the 20th century by figures such as Koneski, Ristovski and Cento. I see you have taken a liking to Cento. He was a great man and hero of Macedonia, but he was only one of many historical figures influencing the development of the Macedonian state and nation.

You are the purest of the Slavs because the original definition of the Slavs was you, and not the Poles, the Russians or the Slovaks. We know better because the ones who first used the name Slav in literature were our East Roman ancestors.

You fail to explain why the Macedonians of Macedonia fled in Thrace and created a different Macedonia there. In reality there was no mixing because there were no Macedonians left to mix, with the exception of the Thema of Thessaloniki.

The most foreign loans in your language are Turkish. You would have a better chance convincing a linguist that you are Turks...

Anyway, neither Cento nor Tito not even Misirkov or Pulevski was solely responsible for your ethnogenesis. In reality people do not create an ethnicity by orders from above - at least not real ones. We should discuss it in another thread, but at least you got the timing quite well - late 19th century until 1944.

Cento didn't even know what Macedonia is, his people would not recognize Thessaloniki as Macedonian since none of his people were native there. Anyway, the "Slavic speakers of Greece" are limited today to the Russian tourists of Chalkidike and the ex-Yugoslav tourists in Pieria...

...And if you prefer a more definite figure:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians_(ethnic_group)


Greece 747 (2001 census)
10,000 – 30,000 (1999 est.)

For all of the estimates, your political power is in the range of 7.500 votes to 4.500 votes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinozhito#Electoral_results

Of the 2 million people living in the territories of Ancient Macedonia, you could barely register 100.000 for your cause... It looks like the merger resulted to... Real Macedonians, and not your variety...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Small detail:

You don't live in Macedonia!

The kingdom of Ancient Macedonia, as shown in wikipedia:

The Macedonian nation does not end at the current Greek-Macedonian border. I am from the Pelagonia region of Macedonia, but many ethnic Macedonians, including some of my relatives and friends come from places like Lerin/Florina, Voden/Edessa and Kostur/Kastoria. These places are all firmly part of the ancient Macedonia kingdom. All of these people I refer to speak the modern Macedonian language and identify as Macedonians like me.

Still, the vast majority of your fiefdom is outside of Ancient Macedonia. These outside of Ancient Macedonia brainwashed you. We are inside of Ancient Macedonia and maintain much more Macedonian traits than you ever had.

Furthermore, the most of the territories that you mention were inhabited by the Lyncestians, an upper Macedonian kingdom which most likely spoke Illyrian... The only one of all the Macedonian kingdoms. This is why, the Germans found that the list of the Ancient Macedonian names had a 5-10% Illyrian root (I cannot remember the exact number by memory)...



...Those Illyrian Lyncestians were constantly opposing the central Macedonian authority and at some point they even managed to impose an usurper in the Macedonian throne, Aeropus:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeropus_II_of_Macedon

Later Alexander the Great executed all three of his sons either as guilty of the assassination of his father, or because the last living one conspired to kill him by orders of the Persian king:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heromenes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrhabaeus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_of_Lyncestis


The object of this traitor was probably to gain possession of the throne of Macedonia, which previous to the reign of Amyntas III of Macedon had for a time belonged to his family.

All things change and at the same time all stay the same.

You are still dreaming of usurping Macedonia, we are still preparing the gallows for any event...

[Petros Houhoulis]

And yet Georgievski was responsible for Bulgaria officially recognising the Macedonian language in 1999;

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Joint_Declaration_of_22_February_1999

Ljubco was a clever man with clear aims who actually managed to achieve them. His only trouble is that he could see the Albanians for what they really are... But you couldn't... Just as you could not accept the idea that your ethnicity is merely 100~150 years old. No, you dreamed of Greater Malakedonia, and you'll end up with... Greater Albania.

Ljubco is still waiting from you to wake up. Unfortunately your hallucinations are so deep that you will do wake up only when you shall be getting raped...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Cento was the one who established schools and taught the slavs about Macedonism in the 1940s. Before him the idea of a Macedonian ethnicity was just that, an idea held by some people. FYROM started in the 1940's, not before that.

There is no such thing as "pure" races. Countries are not based on race either, there is no french, english, german, race. Countries are based of culture, and FYROM is a slavic culture. Ancient Macedon was Hellenic and the incomming slavic peopels changed that. Whether you want to admit it or not your people do have more than alot in common with bulgarians.

Cento was not capable of doing much in the midst of the WWII, and especially under Bulgarian occupation. In any case the majority of them dumped the Bulgarian idea only because Bulgaria was amongst the losers of WWII. Prior to that many ethnic ideas were competing with each other in their territory, just as today, the only difference was that back then none was really prevalent.

Their ethnic idea was by far the weakest back then, but it did start up since Pulevski if not earlier, even if a few intellectuals were all of its' supporters...

[Romanion]

Cento was not capable of doing much in the midst of the WWII, and especially under Bulgarian occupation. In any case the majority of them dumped the Bulgarian idea only because Bulgaria was amongst the losers of WWII. Prior to that many ethnic ideas were competing with each other in their territory, just as today, the only difference was that back then none was really prevalent.

Their ethnic idea was by far the weakest back then, but it did start up since Pulevski if not earlier, even if a few intellectuals were all of its' supporters...

Yugoslavia was invaded in 1941, Cento was starting school all before that teaching children that they are "Macedonians". Cento actualy wanted to invade Greece and not protect Yugoslavia from the invasion to the north. Dreamers.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Yugoslavia was invaded in 1941, Cento was starting school all before that teaching children that they are "Macedonians". Cento actualy wanted to invade Greece and not protect Yugoslavia from the invasion to the north. Dreamers.

Cento was not ruling the place, maybe a single town. His impact pre-WWII was insignificant.

Cento didn't have enough troops to invade Greece on his own - although he did prefer to send his ragtag army south instead of the battle of Srem...

Of course I've read Sasha Uzunovs' hallucinations:

http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/uzunov/uzunov_srem.html

Cento did never reach Thessaloniki. Sasha had been masturbating too much while writing this article. His troops did not fight the NAZIs either at that point. Probably they were fighting on the side of Ohrana...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_Macedonian_Revolutionary_Organization#Sec ond_World_War_period


...IMRO was also active in organising Bulgarian militias in Italian and German occupation zones against Greek nationalist and communist groups as EAM-ELAS and EDES. With the help of Mihailov and Macedonian emigres in Sofia, several pro-Bulgarian armed detachments "Ohrana" were organised in the Kastoria, Florina and Edessa districts. These were led by Bulgarian officers originally from Greek Macedonia – Andon Kalchev and Georgi Dimchev.[38] It was apparent that Mihailov had broader plans which envisaged the creation of a Macedonian state under a German control. It was also anticipated that the IMRO volunteers would form the core of the armed forces of a future Independent Macedonia in addition to providing administration and education in the Florina, Kastoria and Edessa districts.

...Unless if Sasha implies that Cento was in a civil war with his own Ohrana brothers in Greek soil...

[Crn Volk]

Still, the vast majority of your fiefdom is outside of Ancient Macedonia. These outside of Ancient Macedonia brainwashed you. We are inside of Ancient Macedonia and maintain much more Macedonian traits than you ever had.

Furthermore, the most of the territories that you mention were inhabited by the Lyncestians, an upper Macedonian kingdom which most likely spoke Illyrian... The only one of all the Macedonian kingdoms. This is why, the Germans found that the list of the Ancient Macedonian names had a 5-10% Illyrian root (I cannot remember the exact number by memory)...



...Those Illyrian Lyncestians were constantly opposing the central Macedonian authority and at some point they even managed to impose an usurper in the Macedonian throne, Aeropus:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeropus_II_of_Macedon

Later Alexander the Great executed all three of his sons either as guilty of the assassination of his father, or because the last living one conspired to kill him by orders of the Persian king:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heromenes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrhabaeus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_of_Lyncestis



All things change and at the same time all stay the same.

You are still dreaming of usurping Macedonia, we are still preparing the gallows for any event...

You make no mention of the Turkish speaking Greeks who were settled in Greek Macedonia in the 1920s and now make up a large proportion of the Greek population of this province;

http://www.balkanalysis.com/blog/2009/02/01/population-exchange-in-greek-macedonia-the-rural-settlement-of-refugees-1922-1930/

are these your so-called descendants of Alexander??

[Onur]

http://www.balkanalysis.com/blog/2009/02/01/population-exchange-in-greek-macedonia-the-rural-settlement-of-refugees-1922-1930/
This is a good article but this information is misleading;


***
One interesting section in this part is the chapter on the migration’s demographic aspects. In 1912, the Greek population of Macedonia was recorded as being 42.6 percent. With the expulsion of Turks and Slavs, in 1926 it amounted to 88.8 percent (p. 100). The region’s general demographic growth was equally dramatic; due to the wars and general instability, Macedonia had become sparsely populated, and the arrival of the refugees was generally beneficial, according to the author.
***

Greek population of Macedonia before 1912 was nowhere near that number. 42% is the number of people who were adhere to Greek patriarchy.

Bulgarian patriarchy has beer created in 1870s and about half of the Macedonians quit Greek church and became adherents of the new Bulgarian church but the other half remained with Greek church. So, that 42% includes some Macedonians, Vlachs, Albanians and all other ethnic groups. Overall Greek speaking population of Macedonia was no more than 20% at all and these Greeks weren't locals either. Most of them was tradesman from Athens and Istanbul who recently settled there with their families.

I can say that Greek population of Macedonia was no more than gypsies for 1000s of years `till 1924.

[Adrian]

You make no mention of the Turkish speaking Greeks who were settled in Greek Macedonia in the 1920s and now make up a large proportion of the Greek population of this province;

Good point. Turkey-Greek agreements (Treaty of Lausanne of 1923) for exchange of population have led to a significant change of population statistics in Chameria (Epirus). Muslims, who were mostly Albanians, were sent to the unpopulated areas of Turkey while large number of population from Turkey was sent in Greece. Albanians unjustly were labeled as Turks, although they didn't know any words in Turkish and didn't have anything in common with Turks, except religion.
The few Albanians families who survived this agreement have been massacred and expelled later by General Zervas (1944).The truth must be said!

[Trun]

Actually, There has no mentioning of a so called 'Bulgarian empire' anywhere. I think that is a modern invention.


Educate yourself:


Samuel[1] (also Samuil, representing Bulgarian: Самуил, pronounced [samuˈil]) was the Emperor (Tsar) of the First Bulgarian Empire from 997 to 6 October 1014. From 980[2] to 997, he was a general under Roman I of Bulgaria, the second surviving son of Emperor Peter I of Bulgaria, and co-ruled with him, as Roman bestowed upon him the command of the army and the effective royal authority.[3] As Samuel struggled to preserve his country's independence from the Byzantine Empire, his rule was characterized by constant warfare against the Byzantines and their equally ambitious ruler Basil II.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuil

The only modern invention here is your little state...


From an independent source;

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/blog/samuel.html

How can he be Macedonian since at that time there were no Macedonians, neither Hellenic, nor Slavic?

[Vojnik]

Educate yourself:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuil

The only modern invention here is your little state...

I still can't see any proof of Tsar Samoil being Bulgarian or his empire being Bulgarian. And I mean proof dating back when Tsar Samoil was actually around. Wikipedia is a encyclopaedia that can be edited by anyone around the world, even you feuerfrei. ;)

[Trun]

I still can't see any proof of Tsar Samoil being Bulgarian or his empire being Bulgarian. And I mean proof dating back when Tsar Samoil was actually around. Wikipedia is a encyclopaedia that can be edited by anyone around the world, even you feuerfrei. ;)

Prove that he was Macedonian then. It is widely accepted fact that Samuil was Bulgarian and his country was called Bulgaria. Even Vasilius II was called "Killer of Bulgarians" not "Killer of Macedonians".

You Fyromies are those who go against the scientifically accepted and say he was Macedonian. What is firm proof for you? His passport?

[lepa]

I still can't see any proof of Tsar Samoil being Bulgarian or his empire being Bulgarian. And I mean proof dating back when Tsar Samoil was actually around. Wikipedia is a encyclopaedia that can be edited by anyone around the world, even you feuerfrei. ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitola_inscription

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-D31abg2rhLw/T2PqU1MDFoI/AAAAAAAAAvs/Blso1uFZxpw/s1600/800px-Bitolski_nadpis.jpg

[Vojnik]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitola_inscription

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-D31abg2rhLw/T2PqU1MDFoI/AAAAAAAAAvs/Blso1uFZxpw/s1600/800px-Bitolski_nadpis.jpg

FAKE



During September 1997 a Greek national with "Bulgarian identity" from Voden named Stoidis
appeared in Sofia at the National Historical Museum and declared to the Director Bozidar
Dimitrov that he has in his possession a stone inscription found in Voden (Edessa) during
the reconstruction of a local church. The Director declared the inscription a fake made
by Bulgarian nationalists in the 19th Century. Apparently the whole story was published
in the Bulgarian daily Kontinent on "02.10.1997."


The "Bitola inscription" was discovered during the demolition of a mosque in Bitola during the
1950's and so far nobody doubted its veracity. Considering the Voden case the Bitola stone
has to be viewed in new light. Chances that it was written by the same authors are indeed very
high. We have also to ask about other products from the same authors as well as regard
the whole Bulgarian historiography concerning Macedonia with great suspicion.

http://www.gate.net/~mango/Bulgarian_falsification.html

The Voden and Bitola inscriptions have both been proven as FAKE. So i suggest you B'lgari get over this clear falsification.

[Vojnik]

Now here is something real.

The tombstone of Samuil's parents is currently stored at the Archaeological Museum in Sofia, Bulgaria. It was transported there from the village German, near lake Prespa in Macedonia in 1916. The dimensions of the tombstone are within the ranges: 130-125/67-52/10-7 cm.

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8220/samuilinscriptionmn1.png

As you can see in the image above, the Macedonian Tsar called himself Samoil. Samoil is the common way that we Macedonians say the name, whereas, the Bulgarians commonly spell his name as Samuil.

The fact is that, He was born in Macedonia, he died in Macedonia and his capital was established in Macedonia. Tsar Samoil was Macedonian, his empire was Macedonian. He did not look, nor did he personally identify as a Bulgarin. People like Khan Asparuh for example are Bulgars, judging by his look and the name Khan, which is central Asian and the name Bulgar, which is also central Asian in origin.

[Romanion]

FAKE




http://www.gate.net/~mango/Bulgarian_falsification.html

The Voden and Bitola inscriptions have both been proven as FAKE. So i suggest you B'lgari get over this clear falsification.

Your sources are always very sketchy. If the Voden stone is fake why is the Bitola stone fake?

[Romanion]

Now here is something real.

The tombstone of Samuil's parents is currently stored at the Archaeological Museum in Sofia, Bulgaria. It was transported there from the village German, near lake Prespa in Macedonia in 1916. The dimensions of the tombstone are within the ranges: 130-125/67-52/10-7 cm.

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8220/samuilinscriptionmn1.png

As you can see in the image above, the Macedonian Tsar called himself Samoil. Samoil is the common way that we Macedonians say the name, whereas, the Bulgarians commonly spell his name as Samuil.

The fact is that, He was born in Macedonia, he died in Macedonia and his capital was established in Macedonia. Tsar Samoil was Macedonian, his empire was Macedonian. He did not look, nor did he personally identify as a Bulgarin. People like Khan Asparuh for example are Bulgars, judging by his look and the name Khan, which is central Asian and the name Bulgar, which is also central Asian in origin.

Until you realize that there was no macedonia in that area during that time, and the Macedonia language and Bulgaria are the same thing. What you call your country now and what it used to be are very different.

[Vojnik]

Your sources are always very sketchy. If the Voden stone is fake why is the Bitola stone fake?

Both have been found to be fabrications by the same author, Ivan Vladislav.

[Vojnik]

Until you realize that there was no macedonia in that area during that time, and the Macedonia language and Bulgaria are the same thing. What you call your country now and what it used to be are very different.

So what do you define as Macedonia in those days? Don't tell me Basil which was of Aromanian ancestry.

[morski]

Both have been found to be fabrications by the same author, Ivan Vladislav.

hahahha:D

Tsar Ivan Vladislav you mean, the nephew of Samuil?

[Vojnik]

hahahha:D

Tsar Ivan Vladislav you mean, the nephew of Samuil?

My bad, it was the supposed inscription by Ivan Vladislav, which is fabricated.

[Romanion]

So what do you define as Macedonia in those days? Don't tell me Basil which was of Aromanian ancestry.

The traditional area that was Macedonia was the Theme of Salonica. The Theme of Macedonia was in Thrace. Basil was called a macedonian because he was from there, not because of his ethnic origins. There were no ethnic Macedonians, they were called Romans.

[Romanion]

My bad, it was the supposed inscription by Ivan Vladislav, which is fabricated.

I don't understand, are you saying a man from the 11th century fabricated a stone for propaganda purposes in the 21 st century? Even if Samuil didn't make the stone and his brother did, his brother called Samuil a Bulgarian.

[Vojnik]

The traditional area that was Macedonia was the Theme of Salonica. The Theme of Macedonia was in Thrace. Basil was called a macedonian because he was from there, not because of his ethnic origins. There were no ethnic Macedonians, they were called Romans.

When were themes invented? I don't really know about them.

Anyway, here is a map of the Roman province of Macedonia.


http://i41.tinypic.com/e1cgp1.jpg

[Romanion]

When were themes invented? I don't really know about them.

Anyway, here is a map of the Roman province of Macedonia.


http://i41.tinypic.com/e1cgp1.jpg

This is a Roman map from antiquity, the Romans we are talking about are the medieval Romans, also called Byzantines by historians. This is not in the context we are talking about, probably 700-800 years prior to Basil.

Here is a good basic read about the Themes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theme_(Byzantine_district)

[Vojnik]

I don't understand, are you saying a man from the 11th century fabricated a stone for propaganda purposes in the 21 st century? Even if Samuil didn't make the stone and his brother did, his brother called Samuil a Bulgarian.

No you misunderstood me. The inscription was supposedly written by Vladislav, but it's a fake.

[lepa]

Now here is something real.

The tombstone of Samuil's parents is currently stored at the Archaeological Museum in Sofia, Bulgaria. It was transported there from the village German, near lake Prespa in Macedonia in 1916. The dimensions of the tombstone are within the ranges: 130-125/67-52/10-7 cm.

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8220/samuilinscriptionmn1.png

As you can see in the image above, the Macedonian Tsar called himself Samoil. Samoil is the common way that we Macedonians say the name, whereas, the Bulgarians commonly spell his name as Samuil.

The fact is that, He was born in Macedonia, he died in Macedonia and his capital was established in Macedonia. Tsar Samoil was Macedonian, his empire was Macedonian. He did not look, nor did he personally identify as a Bulgarin. People like Khan Asparuh for example are Bulgars, judging by his look and the name Khan, which is central Asian and the name Bulgar, which is also central Asian in origin.

And where actually is mentioned that he is "macedonian"? That "Samuil" and "Samoil" thing is just pathetic. Also, Constantine the Great was born in Niš, but that doesn't make him serbian. :D

[Trun]

I'm interested how can only Samuil be Macedonian, since his brothers ruled together with him all that was independent Bulgarian state at that time (before he became Tsar only by himself)? Moreover, Samuil ruled Vidin first...or Vidin is in Macedonia too? :laugh:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/SeEuropeBury1903XXXV.jpg/769px-SeEuropeBury1903XXXV.jpg

[Romanion]

I'm interested how can only Samuil be Macedonian, since his brothers ruled together with him all that was independent Bulgarian state at that time (before he became Tsar only by himself)? Moreover, Samuil ruled Vidin first...or Vidin is in Macedonia too? :laugh:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/SeEuropeBury1903XXXV.jpg/769px-SeEuropeBury1903XXXV.jpg

The boarders of Medieval Bulgaria were always changing, but it seemed like it concentrated mostly around modern day Bulgaria, Ro Macedonija, southern Serbia and Albania.