PDA

View Full Version : Real Madrid removes cross from logo for Muslims



Mosov
04-09-2012, 03:18 PM
I thought this was rather ridiculous and an example of extreme political correctness....

http://sport.news.am/static/news/b/2012/04/2435.jpg


The leadership of Real Madrid has decided to remove the cross from its logo to strengthen its image among Muslims of Europe and the Middle East.

Real Madrid received the symbol in 1920 when King Alfonse XIII granted its patronage to the team, mislimvillage.com reports.

The Club has pledged to remove the cross from its logo after signing of a contract with the Arab Emirates.

Rereg
04-09-2012, 03:20 PM
Shame!

Hurrem sultana
04-09-2012, 03:21 PM
all muslims support Barcelona so no reason :D

safinator
04-09-2012, 03:23 PM
Interesting marketing operation!!!

Damião de Góis
04-09-2012, 03:28 PM
all muslims support Barcelona so no reason :D


FC Barcelona's public relations efforts in the Muslim worldhave not been without controversy. Like Real Madrid, FC Barcelona has a cross in its official logo. But after Saudi Arabia complained that the so-called Cruz de San Jorge -- a red and white cross that forms an integral part of FC Barcelona's logo -- was offensive to Islam because it evokes memories of the medieval Crusades, the horizontal line (and thus the offending cross) was removed from all FC Barcelona shirts sold in the Middle East.

http://www.elconfidencial.com/fotos/noticias/2007121750escudosincruz.jpg

Queen B
04-09-2012, 03:30 PM
Shame. Such a shame.

Flintlocke
04-09-2012, 03:33 PM
That cross is so tiny I had to search the picture for 5 minutes.

Comte Arnau
04-09-2012, 03:35 PM
http://www.elconfidencial.com/fotos/noticias/2007121750escudosincruz.jpg

Yeah, that also came to my mind. Money is money, after all.

"Cruz de San Jorge"? Lol, sounds even bad in Spanish. :p

Damião de Góis
04-09-2012, 03:38 PM
Muslim people are very sensitive to say the least. I mean, i couldn't care less about this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/Star_and_Crescent.svg/283px-Star_and_Crescent.svg.png

I even find it a nice drawing

Mosov
04-09-2012, 03:39 PM
Spineless cowards these people....

Hurrem sultana
04-09-2012, 03:40 PM
why do they need religious symbols there after all? it does not bother me at all,i just wonder?

Corvus
04-09-2012, 03:41 PM
http://jesus.facepalm.de/images/facepalm.jpg

Mosov
04-09-2012, 03:47 PM
why do they need religious symbols there after all? it does not bother me at all,i just wonder?

it's part of their history, they have every right to have it.

Next you will have Scandinavian countries removing crosses from their flags :mad:

Hurrem sultana
04-09-2012, 03:48 PM
it's part of their history, they have every right to have it.

Next you will have Scandinavian countries removing crosses from their flags :mad:

Yes they have no one forced them to remove it,they wanted to.But what does football have to do with religion?

Rastko
04-09-2012, 03:48 PM
Tragicomic.

Damião de Góis
04-09-2012, 03:48 PM
why do they need religious symbols there after all? it does not bother me at all,i just wonder?

Because a lot of football clubs have references to the city they're from in their symbols. Examples:

http://karllusbec.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/ac-milan.gif?w=490

http://www.footballpictures.net/data/media/51/As_Roma_Wallpaper.jpg

http://pt.canalmachico.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/fcporto.jpg

2Cool
04-09-2012, 03:49 PM
Well that's stupid. Hopefully such as thing doesn't happen to the Portuguese FPF logo.



edit:


Guys this is different though. The crown doesn't represent Madrid but simply the support of the royal family. It was removed during Franco's reign actually and didn't exist when the club started.

Vasconcelos
04-09-2012, 03:51 PM
Well that's stupid. Hopefully such as thing doesn't happen to the Portuguese FPF logo.

I suppose people would whine a lot if that happened, and it wouldn't go ahead.
Not all is bad in being a people who whines about pretty much everything.

Corvus
04-09-2012, 03:52 PM
It reminds me of the Turks complain because of the cross on the Inter Milan away jersey
some years ago.

Cato
04-09-2012, 03:52 PM
why do they need religious symbols there after all? it does not bother me at all,i just wonder?

Because Spain is a Catholic country perhaps?

Comte Arnau
04-09-2012, 03:53 PM
why do they need religious symbols there after all? it does not bother me at all,i just wonder?

Frankly, it's mainly Muslims who've got the religious obsession in their minds. I must have seen the Barça crest like a million times in my life and never seen that cross as a religious symbol. The meaning of St George's cross in it comes simply from the fact that, in combination with the Catalan flag, it is the flag of Barcelona city.

Saint George is the patron saint of many places, England being the best-known. I wonder if flags with a cross would be forbidden for fans if the World Cup took place in a Muslim country... :confused:

Mosov
04-09-2012, 03:55 PM
Yes they have no one forced them to remove it,they wanted to.But what does football have to do with religion?

It's just an old logo representing Madrid's football team. The cross is just part of the culture/history.

Damião de Góis
04-09-2012, 03:57 PM
I suppose people would whine a lot if that happened, and it wouldn't go ahead.
Not all is bad in being a people who whines about pretty much everything.

It doesn't happen with the Portuguese Football Federation (FPF) because the cross (the same one in my signature) is camuflaged :D

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bPrPg5fuFM4/T2twoSgA07I/AAAAAAAAEww/gYl_PSzPipM/s1600/fpf_geral1.jpg

Hayalet
04-09-2012, 04:02 PM
Spineless cowards these people....
Why? It seems the clubs have traded things for material gains. It might make sense to accuse them of lacking integrity and being greedy, but not of cowardice.

Rouxinol
04-09-2012, 04:08 PM
Saint George is the patron saint of many places, England being the best-known. I wonder if flags with a cross would be forbidden for fans if the World Cup took place in a Muslim country... :confused:

It will take place in Qatar. I won't be surprised if they prohibit the display of flags or other insignias bearing crosses and we concede...

Zephyr
04-09-2012, 04:13 PM
It doesn't happen with the Portuguese Football Federation (FPF) because the cross (the same one in my signature) is camuflaged :D

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bPrPg5fuFM4/T2twoSgA07I/AAAAAAAAEww/gYl_PSzPipM/s1600/fpf_geral1.jpg

The scutcheons are a blue cross too. So, basically the symbol would disappear.

Such are the extents Europe bows to. We should raise funds to get planes and drop millions of crosses over Saudi Arabia.

Hurrem sultana
04-09-2012, 04:15 PM
It doesn't happen with the Portuguese Football Federation (FPF) because the cross (the same one in my signature) is camuflaged :D

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bPrPg5fuFM4/T2twoSgA07I/AAAAAAAAEww/gYl_PSzPipM/s1600/fpf_geral1.jpg

wow this is way too many crosses in one place:D

Damião de Góis
04-09-2012, 04:18 PM
wow this is way too many crosses in one place:D

We like our crosses :cool:

Comte Arnau
04-09-2012, 04:19 PM
http://www.best-horror-movies.com/image-files/dracula-fear-cross.jpg

Rereg
04-09-2012, 04:20 PM
Because Spain was a Catholic country perhaps?

Fixed. :)

I wouldn't be surprised when European Union will destroy all street intersection because these architectural structures could insult muslim minority. :D

Zephyr
04-09-2012, 04:23 PM
why do they need religious symbols there after all? it does not bother me at all,i just wonder?

Christ was crucified in a T-shaped "cross".

The 4-pointed cross is an European symbol that predates Christianity, there are crosses in Roman and Celtic archaeological sites. It's probably the most ubiquitous symbol of Europe.

Represents so many things: cardinal points; the elements; the intersection of telluric lines... European folklore.

But that's something that you being a muslim could barely understand, since islam never adapted to Europe and is alongside judaism anti-European in its essence.

Rouxinol
04-09-2012, 04:27 PM
Fixed. :)

I wouldn't be surprised when European Union will destroy all street intersection because these architectural structures could insult muslim minority. :D

I don't know, but I can see them ordering a ban on the display of crosses on the outside of churches because that might insult muslims passing by.

Comte Arnau
04-09-2012, 04:28 PM
Imagine Europe banning crescents, and forbidding France to produce croissants. :D

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ehwKiWYwlso/SAg6D9odhNI/AAAAAAAAAI0/QwBZZDTPZpo/s400/no+croissants.JPG

Damião de Góis
04-09-2012, 04:30 PM
I don't know, but I can see them ordering a ban on the display of crosses on the outside of churches because that might insult muslims passing by.

That wouldn't happen here anyway. Our muslims apart from being very few, are not vocal about anything. On the other hand no one cares that this building exists in Lisbon:

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/51234216.jpg

Falkata
04-09-2012, 04:31 PM
It will take place in Qatar. I won't be surprised if they prohibit the display of flags or other insignias bearing crosses and we concede...

I´d go half-naked and completely drunk to the stadium just for the lulz

Qatar doesn´t deserve a World Cup by the way. Ultra-boring muslim freak place without any kind of football tradition. I dont even know if they have a national team or a national league

Damião de Góis
04-09-2012, 04:34 PM
Wait... i wonder if this will pose a problem in Euro 2012? They're new :D

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-JRwsWJVhodo/Tz3hcPJ1PWI/AAAAAAAABX4/Tk6i5Q9RRRQ/s1600/Portugal-novos-equipamentos-EURO_2012_Aposta-X.jpg

Comte Arnau
04-09-2012, 04:34 PM
I dont even know if they have a national team or a national league

I know there's a team called Al Ahly because Guardiola played there. I think Hierro played in a Qatari team too, but can't remember the name.

Rereg
04-09-2012, 04:35 PM
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/51234216.jpg

How many mosques exist in Lisbon?

2Cool
04-09-2012, 04:37 PM
wow this is way too many crosses in one place:D

That doesn't even count the crosses that are on the jersey itself lol.

New away jersey:
http://soccerjerseyswholesaler.net/images/detailed/22/12_13_Portugal_EURO_CUP_Away13327268834f6fcc636435 b.jpg

It also has this :

http://hookedonsoccer.com/image/cache/data/porth2-500x500.jpg
Symbolizes the Portuguese Empire

and this:
http://hookedonsoccer.com/image/cache/data/Portugal%20Away%20shorts-360x400.jpg

The previous jersey also had this:

http://i.imgur.com/edc6E.png
In the back collard

http://i.imgur.com/vsz04.png




But quite frankly, 99% of Muslims don't care about this. I know a lot of Muslims, have Muslim friends and never in my life have I seen them complain about such things. They are wear jerseys that have crosses on them since they know it's not a big deals. What Real Madrid did actually makes sense in a financial point of view. I'm sure after their deal with the Emirates end they'll bring back the cross.

Damião de Góis
04-09-2012, 04:39 PM
How many mosques exist in Lisbon?

Only that one. It was open in 1985.

Comte Arnau
04-09-2012, 04:40 PM
That doesn't even count the crosses that are on the jersey itself lol.

New away jersey:
http://soccerjerseyswholesaler.net/images/detailed/22/12_13_Portugal_EURO_CUP_Away13327268834f6fcc636435 b.jpg


:eek:

Provocation!!! :p

2Cool
04-09-2012, 04:40 PM
How many mosques exist in Lisbon?

I think that's the only one. But in Portugal most Muslims are from the ex-Portuguese colonies. They are well integrated and most have good jobs. So there' no problem as far as I know. The situation is quite different from the rest of Europe.

Vasconcelos
04-09-2012, 04:41 PM
Only that one. It was open in 1985.

There is a second one in Odivelas, but it's about the size of a shoe and next to a McDonalds.

Minesweeper
04-09-2012, 04:41 PM
Wait... i wonder if this will pose a problem in Euro 2012? They're new :D

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-JRwsWJVhodo/Tz3hcPJ1PWI/AAAAAAAABX4/Tk6i5Q9RRRQ/s1600/Portugal-novos-equipamentos-EURO_2012_Aposta-X.jpg

They're going to look like Crusaders in right one!:eek:

Damião de Góis
04-09-2012, 04:43 PM
They're going to look like Crusaders in right one!:eek:

I think it will be ironic if anyone complains about a cross in Euro 2012. Let's wait and see. :p

2Cool
04-09-2012, 04:44 PM
That home jersey next to the away is not real btw.

Hurrem sultana
04-09-2012, 04:45 PM
That wouldn't happen here anyway. Our muslims apart from being very few, are not vocal about anything. On the other hand no one cares that this building exists in Lisbon:

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/51234216.jpg

why should they care?Portugal is a democratic country

Minesweeper
04-09-2012, 04:46 PM
I think it will be ironic if anyone complains about a cross in Euro 2012. Let's wait and see. :p

I wouldn't be surprised to be honest. I mean, Europe is a multicultural continent.:rolleyes:

Mosov
04-09-2012, 04:47 PM
I'm not an Islamaphobe, but this liberal political correctness gets on my nerves. Be proud of your culture and identity and don't let anybody belittle it.

Damião de Góis
04-09-2012, 04:47 PM
why should they care?Portugal is a democratic country

True, it's others who complain that crosses are evil and should be put away ;)

Riki
04-09-2012, 04:50 PM
Don't blame the Muslim's.
Blame our coward Leaders.

Zephyr
04-09-2012, 04:53 PM
Only that one. It was open in 1985.

That's the Sunni.

Não andas atento quando passas nas Laranjeiras (http://www.google.pt/search?num=30&hl=pt-PT&biw=1680&bih=884&q=rua+abranches+ferr%C3%A3o&oq=rua+abranches+&aq=0&aqi=g2&aql=&gs_l=serp.3.0.0l2.12783l15993l0l17166l18l18l2l5l6l 0l111l899l10j1l11l0.frgbld.) :D

http://www.dn.pt/storage/DN/2010/big/ng1367192.jpg?type=big&pos=0

Escola Aga Khan para 1200 alunos em Portugal (http://www.dn.pt/inicio/portugal/interior.aspx?content_id=1704392&seccao=Sul)

Shiite Centre: http://laranjeira.com/artigos/070721-agakhan.shtml

Riki
04-09-2012, 05:09 PM
If we are to take our crosses we would have lot's to do.

http://city-of-tomar.com/republic-square/guidons-castle-praca-da-republica-in-tomar.jpg

http://city-of-tomar.com/republic-square/cobblestone-pavement-praca-da-republica-in-tomar.jpg

Óttar
04-09-2012, 06:15 PM
This is absolutely ridiculous. The cross looks like it has been broken off of the crown. The crown looks lopsided and unaesthetic without it. This is an example of political correctness gone too far.


Não andas atento quando passas nas Laranjeiras (http://www.google.pt/search?num=30&hl=pt-PT&biw=1680&bih=884&q=rua+abranches+ferr%C3%A3o&oq=rua+abranches+&aq=0&aqi=g2&aql=&gs_l=serp.3.0.0l2.12783l15993l0l17166l18l18l2l5l6l 0l111l899l10j1l11l0.frgbld.) :D

http://www.dn.pt/storage/DN/2010/big/ng1367192.jpg?type=big&pos=0

Escola Aga Khan para 1200 alunos em Portugal (http://www.dn.pt/inicio/portugal/interior.aspx?content_id=1704392&seccao=Sul)

Shiite Centre: http://laranjeira.com/artigos/070721-agakhan.shtml
The Aga Khan is cool. Aga Khan Ismailis are not really Shias, so much as heretics. They are the most progressive Muslims in the world. They believe that the spirit of God descends upon their Imam, the Aga Khan, and that wine turns to water when it passes his lips. The Sunnis in SA and other countries, as well as mainline Shias hate him.

Falkata
04-09-2012, 06:17 PM
why should they care?Portugal is a democratic country

And Switzerland too. More democratic than Portugal or any other european nation actually

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/switzerland-votes-to-ban-the-building-of-minarets-1831109.html

SilverKnight
04-09-2012, 06:22 PM
SMFH.The beginning of the end for Christian Europe, or maybe already happening.

Riki
04-09-2012, 06:22 PM
:eek:

Provocation!!! :p

We hope so.:)

Flintlocke
04-09-2012, 06:24 PM
Next you will have Scandinavian countries removing crosses from their flags :mad:

Those flags would look better with Thor's hammer and enemy skulls. ;)

Riki
04-09-2012, 06:26 PM
SMFH.The beginning of the end for Christian Europe, or maybe already happening.

Most of Europe now is atheist.And look to they Christians Europeans brother's as backward's.
The problem start's here.

2Cool
04-09-2012, 06:28 PM
SMFH.The beginning of the end for Christian Europe, or maybe already happening.

lol. I don't think that removing a small cross from a football club marks the beginning or end of anything. The end of Christianity in Europe started a while ago, during the Enlightenment.

derLowe
04-09-2012, 06:28 PM
That cross is so tiny I had to search the picture for 5 minutes.

Perhaps after Christian stop supporting the club after the removal they will rethink their actions.

Of course this will never happen.

2Cool
04-09-2012, 06:37 PM
Perhaps after Christian stop supporting the club after the removal they will rethink their actions.

Of course this will never happen.

Most believe don't believe in religion in Europe and most people won't notice the change. I didn't even know Real Madrid had a cross on their logo until today.

Riki
04-09-2012, 09:26 PM
Most believe don't believe in religion in Europe and most people won't notice the change. I didn't even know Real Madrid had a cross on their logo until today.

You have to see more thorough then Religion.
The issue hear is to make a statement,the same reason the pig's Muslim protest about the cross.
When in fact the idea of such thing shouldn't even be considered as this is Europe,Spain is a Christian Country.

Libertas
04-09-2012, 09:27 PM
It's a betrayal.

Libertas
04-09-2012, 09:30 PM
Muslim people are very sensitive to say the least. I mean, i couldn't care less about this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/Star_and_Crescent.svg/283px-Star_and_Crescent.svg.png

I even find it a nice drawing

I wager that PC liberals in the West were more worried about the cross symbol than Muslims were.

Incal
04-10-2012, 12:10 PM
Muslim people are very sensitive to say the least. I mean, i couldn't care less about this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/Star_and_Crescent.svg/283px-Star_and_Crescent.svg.png

I even find it a nice drawing

That's what I call fanatism. And that also shows muslim's true colors when it comes to be tolerant of other cultures and religions. Everybody has to tolerate their bullshit but they can't even tolerate a small logo.

Comte Arnau
04-10-2012, 12:11 PM
They shouldn't allow Ronaldo in Qatar, because his name being Cristiano is a provocation. :tongue

Leliana
04-10-2012, 02:53 PM
Bayern München will wipe the floor with Real Madrid in the semi-finals of the Champions League. ;) They should lose until they add the cross again.

The Lawspeaker
04-10-2012, 03:31 PM
Ludicrous.

Kazimiera
04-10-2012, 10:47 PM
An example of when PC goes too far...

I am all for equality but if someone demands respect for their religion then they need to give it first.

Secondly, history cannot be done away with or just erased because someone finds it offensive.

These logos look the way they do for a reason and they should stay that way.

Supreme American
04-10-2012, 11:07 PM
I thought this was rather ridiculous and an example of extreme political correctness....

http://sport.news.am/static/news/b/2012/04/2435.jpg

I'd call it typical. They're already getting away with establishing aspects of Islamic law without actually even having the demographic majority yet. You' think the Spanish would know better than anyone...

How often do you see a star and crescent taken down because it offends Christians?

Damião de Góis
04-10-2012, 11:20 PM
How often do you see a star and crescent taken down because it offends Christians?

Indeed, the moon offends me... deeply :D

Rron
04-10-2012, 11:34 PM
That doesn't even count the crosses that are on the jersey itself lol.

New away jersey:
http://soccerjerseyswholesaler.net/images/detailed/22/12_13_Portugal_EURO_CUP_Away13327268834f6fcc636435 b.jpg

It also has this :

http://hookedonsoccer.com/image/cache/data/porth2-500x500.jpg
Symbolizes the Portuguese Empire

and this:
http://hookedonsoccer.com/image/cache/data/Portugal%20Away%20shorts-360x400.jpg

The previous jersey also had this:

http://i.imgur.com/edc6E.png
In the back collard

http://i.imgur.com/vsz04.png
Would all these crosses help Portugal to win Euro 2012 ?,i doubt that.:D:coffee:

Dead Eye
04-10-2012, 11:39 PM
And all of this is being done under the guise of 'MULTIculturalism'.
Ironic i think.

Rron
04-10-2012, 11:43 PM
And all of this is being done under the guise of 'MULTIculturalism'.
Ironic i think.
Its more like under guise of commercialization.

Hess
04-10-2012, 11:47 PM
You' think the Spanish would know better than anyone...

The thing about Europeans is that we're not very at taking lessons from history :coffee:


That cross is so tiny I had to search the picture for 5 minutes.

This isn't about the size of the Cross, but the principle behind censoring Christian, European team symbols so as not to offend the tender sensibilities of the poor muslims

2Cool
04-10-2012, 11:50 PM
Its more like under guise of commercialization.

Exactly This has nothing to do with immigrants in Europe nor has sensible Muslim in Europe bitched about the cross on Real Madrid's crest. This is a strictly business decision.

Catrau
04-10-2012, 11:51 PM
Sorry but I do not belive this.
You must ALL be joking!

Rron
04-10-2012, 11:55 PM
Exactly This has nothing to do with immigrants in Europe nor has sensible Muslim in Europe bitched about the cross on Real Madrid's crest. This is a strictly business decision.
Of course, quote from the first post:



The leadership of Real Madrid has decided to remove the cross from its logo to strengthen its image among Muslims of Europe and the Middle East.

Real Madrid received the symbol in 1920 when King Alfonse XIII granted its patronage to the team, mislimvillage.com reports.

The Club has pledged to remove the cross from its logo after signing of a contract with the Arab Emirates.

Rron
04-11-2012, 12:18 AM
The thing about Europeans is that we're not very at taking lessons from history :coffee:



This isn't about the size of the Cross, but the principle behind censoring Christian, European team symbols so as not to offend the tender sensibilities of the poor muslims
Hess sorry mate football have nothing to do with christianity, and those symbols are not principle of christianity so nobody is censoring them, they are doing it about business purpose, btw if you take a look of Portugal dress with all those crosses that team looks like bunch of superstitious dudes.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2b/RM_Crest_History.png

Damião de Góis
04-11-2012, 12:30 AM
btw if you take a look of Portugal dress with all those crosses that team looks like bunch of superstitious dudes.


It's not about supersticion, it's about history and tradition:

http://colombo.do.sapo.pt/romasDManuel01.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/Cal%C3%A7ada_em_Tomar-_Cruz_da_ordem_de_Cristo.jpg

Hess
04-11-2012, 12:36 AM
nobody is censoring them

:confused:

Obviously, someone is censoring the crosses because they are being removed from the Logo.

I think this decision is based on a mixture of Multiculturalism and Commercialism and I'm thoroughly disgusted by it.

2Cool
04-11-2012, 12:37 AM
Hess sorry mate football have nothing to do with christianity, and those symbols are not principle of christianity so nobody is censoring them, they are doing it about business purpose, btw if you take a look of Portugal dress with all those crosses that team looks like bunch of superstitious dudes.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2b/RM_Crest_History.png

lol. Nike like's to add things on their jerseys are related to history of the country that they are designing the shirt for. If you knew Portuguese history you'd know that the cross, the Order of Christ cross, is one of the symbols of Portugal's Empire. The other behind the armillary sphere. It just so happens that the symbol is a cross. It's not because the Portuguese are super religious or superstitious (although the older folks are).

Rron
04-11-2012, 12:37 AM
It's not about supersticion, it's about history and tradition
Sorry if that was offensive, my idea came from atheistic way of view and probably laic in this issue because our teams doesnt have any religious symbol in their logos, or dress etc.

Damião de Góis
04-11-2012, 12:39 AM
Sorry if that was offensive, my idea came from atheistic way of view and probably laic in this issue because our teams doesnt have any religious symbol in their logos, or dress etc.

No problem :D
I mean, that particular cross is a national symbol. Look at my signature!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_vHfhEO08cCE/Se9ftXkyx2I/AAAAAAAAP5o/nZrchIOc0g8/s400/CARAVELA+PORTUGUESA.jpg

2Cool
04-11-2012, 12:39 AM
:confused:

Obviously, someone is censoring the crosses because they are being removed from the Logo.

I think this decision is based on a mixture of Multiculturalism and Commercialism and I'm thoroughly disgusted by it.

How is it multiculturalism?

Queen B
04-11-2012, 12:42 AM
They should have NEVER removed the cross, no matter what Muslims, said. Shameless.

2Cool
04-11-2012, 12:46 AM
Portugal likes its crosses.

http://i.imgur.com/vCrig.jpg

Don't hate.

Portuguese Emblem trifecta.
http://i.imgur.com/cHcAc.jpg

:cool:

Rron
04-11-2012, 12:46 AM
No problem :D
I mean, that particular cross is a national symbol. Look at my signature!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_vHfhEO08cCE/Se9ftXkyx2I/AAAAAAAAP5o/nZrchIOc0g8/s400/CARAVELA+PORTUGUESA.jpg
I knew that is also your national symbol, but why i thought that make you very superstitious is because the cross is in every part of the sportive dress.

2Cool
04-11-2012, 12:50 AM
The 09 kit also had it on the socks

http://i.imgur.com/elZYq.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/qH9if.jpg


Looks like the socks for the new jersey also has it

http://i.imgur.com/9MXFx.png
lol.

The Ripper
04-11-2012, 12:53 AM
I knew that is also your national symbol, but why i thought that make you very superstitious is because the cross is in every part of the sportive dress.

Why is having the national coat of arms / emblem on the jersey of the national team superstitious? How does that makes sense? It seems like a very logical place to put it.

Anyway, its disgusting how these clubs are willing to pander to Islamic intolerance. :coffee:

Rron
04-11-2012, 01:03 AM
They should have NEVER removed the cross, no matter what Muslims, said. Shameless. If you would know what is correctness, you would say something like that:

They should have NEVER removed the cross, no matter if muslims will like their team or not. Shameless.

Blaming muslims about your decisions when you have your own interes about that is hypocrisy.

Rron
04-11-2012, 01:07 AM
Why is having the national coat of arms / emblem on the jersey of the national team superstitious? How does that makes sense? It seems like a very logical place to put it.
All this discussion is about religious symbols not national symbols ok, and im referring to a cross like religious symbol , clear enough ?

2Cool
04-11-2012, 01:22 AM
All this discussion is about religious symbols not national symbols ok, and im referring to a cross like religious symbol , clear enough ?

But what happens when a religious symbol becomes a national symbol? ;)

Rron
04-11-2012, 01:24 AM
But what happens when a religious symbol becomes a national symbol? ;)
Loss of national identity.

The Ripper
04-11-2012, 01:25 AM
All this discussion is about religious symbols not national symbols ok, and im referring to a cross like religious symbol , clear enough ?

How many times do you have to be told: it is the national emblem?

2Cool
04-11-2012, 01:30 AM
Loss of national identity.

lol. And this is coming from a someone from Kosovo.

Rron
04-11-2012, 01:31 AM
How many times do you have to be told: it is the national emblem?
Dude how many times do you have to be told, that i thought they put it because of religious purpose, and its not necessary of you to jump in every Albanian post here, save your nervs for chewing gum.

Rron
04-11-2012, 01:36 AM
lol. And this is coming from a someone from Kosovo.
What have to do this with your question and conclusion? :lol:
Do Albanians have religious symbols like national ones? i suppose you know the answer !, if yes your cynicism here is useless then

2Cool
04-11-2012, 01:43 AM
What have to do this with your question and conclusion? :lol:
Do Albanians have religious symbols like national ones? i suppose you know the answer !, if yes your cynicism here is useless then

Albania is a pretty young country compared to Portugal and lets not even talk about Kosovo. These Portuguese national symbols are over 500 years old. This has nothing to do with a lack of national identity, in fact it's opposite. This is actually a pretty ridiculous claim considering that Portugal is one of oldest states in Europe.

Rron
04-11-2012, 01:54 AM
Albania is a pretty young country compared to Portugal and lets not even talk about Kosovo. These Portuguese national symbols are over 500 years old. This has nothing to do with a lack of national identity, in fact it's opposite. This is actually a pretty ridiculous claim considering that Portugal is one of oldest states in Europe.
Now again this have nothing to do with my answer, if you are trying to change topic or even if you like to talk about our history etc, we have our sections and threads about that, its simple.
To make things clear for you i didnt said anything about Portuguese identity or lack of nationality or something similar,you asked me something ai gave you my opinion.
About if religion had or not impact on your nationality, and relation between these in Portugal, its Portuguese field of concerns at all.

Vasconcelos
04-11-2012, 01:58 AM
The "Portuguese Cross" is about 700 years old, the 5 shields making a cross dates back to Battle ou Ourique, nearly 900 years ago.

I'd punch someone in the face should decision-makers decided to remove these symbols, at least while Portugal as a sovereign state exists.

2Cool
04-11-2012, 02:04 AM
The "Portuguese Cross" is about 700 years old, the 5 shields making a cross dates back to Battle ou Ourique, nearly 900 years ago.

I'd punch someone in the face should decision-makers decided to remove these symbols, at least while Portugal as a sovereign state exists.

lol. It wouldn't happen. Those symbols are so ingrained in Portuguese culture it would be ridiculous to remove them. You'd also need to change most Portuguese insignias as well and Portugal is too broke to spend money to change them lol.

2Cool
04-11-2012, 02:07 AM
Now again this have nothing to do with my answer, if you are trying to change topic or even if you like to talk about our history etc, we have our sections and threads about that, its simple.
To make things clear for you i didnt said anything about Portuguese identity or lack of nationality or something similar,you asked me something ai gave you my opinion.
About if religion had or not impact on your nationality, and relation between these in Portugal, its Portuguese field of concerns at all.

Let's go back in the convo then:


Me:
But what happens when a religious symbol becomes a national symbol?

You:
Loss of national identity.

Context of the conversation: Use of crosses in Portuguese football kits.

The Ripper
04-11-2012, 02:09 AM
Dude how many times do you have to be told, that i thought they put it because of religious purpose, and its not necessary of you to jump in every Albanian post here, save your nervs for chewing gum.

This is the first time you're telling me. Not that your ignorance surprises me. :coffee:

Rron
04-11-2012, 02:15 AM
Let's go back in the convo then:


Me:
But what happens when a religious symbol becomes a national symbol?

You:
Loss of national identity.

Context of the conversation: Use of crosses in Portuguese football kits.
Ok dude ,its interesting to know that your identity its very related with your religion.


Ps Out of thread

Rron
04-11-2012, 02:17 AM
This is the first time you're telling me. Not that your ignorance surprises me. :coffee:
You are intelligent and not all are same like you, what saying else:coffee:

The Ripper
04-11-2012, 02:18 AM
You are intelligent and not all are same like you, what saying else:coffee:

Indeed, what saying else.

2Cool
04-11-2012, 02:47 AM
Ok dude ,its interesting to know that your identity its very related with your religion.


Ps Out of thread

Well I'm an Atheist so there's goes that.

rashka
04-11-2012, 06:29 AM
"The Club has pledged to remove the cross from its logo after signing of a contract with the Arab Emirates."

Obviously money is behind this and the Arab Emirates knows how to use it against European culture. What is sad is that the Real Madrid club fell for such tactics.

derLowe
04-11-2012, 06:55 AM
"The Club has pledged to remove the cross from its logo after signing of a contract with the Arab Emirates."

Obviously money is behind this and the Arab Emirates knows how to use it against European culture. What is sad is that the Real Madrid club fell for such tactics.

Capitalism at its finest.

Falkata
04-11-2012, 09:16 AM
What have to do this with your question and conclusion? :lol:
Do Albanians have religious symbols like national ones? i suppose you know the answer !, if yes your cynicism here is useless then

Most of old countries in the world use religious symbols. Starting from your muslim bros, followed by British, Swedes...
Trying to separate religion from the history and national identity of a country is stupid no matter if you´re a believer or not.

Rron
04-11-2012, 11:06 AM
Most of old countries in the world use religious symbols. Starting from your muslim bros, followed by British, Swedes...
Trying to separate religion from the history and national identity of a country is stupid no matter if you´re a believer or not.
My muslim bros are only other Albanian bros and last time when i checked i didnt saw any religious symbol side by side with our national symbols, listen up dude safinator is chatolic Tonsor too and them i consider my bros not any muslim of other nationality if your point is to make me brother with other muslims around the world, here is difference between us and you because our bros are Albanians not matter religion and only Albanians.
We separated religion from the history and national identity , but seems that you have problem with this fact , that iritate you , no matter how much we discussed here about that your idiocy is stronger than you .

Hurrem sultana
04-11-2012, 11:16 AM
Most of old countries in the world use religious symbols. Starting from your muslim bros, followed by British, Swedes...


But no where have i seen it being used basically everywhere,only portugal :D

Rron
04-11-2012, 11:29 AM
But no where have i seen it being used basically everywhere,only portugal :D
National identity! how they consider it because its interesting how can be cross or islamic symbol used like national identity while religion itself is dogma beyong national identity, thats oxymoron i think.
And to say about something what i consider very absurd is using national symbol even in socks what a offensive attitude toward your national symbol,at least for me.

Vasconcelos
04-11-2012, 12:11 PM
And to say about something what i consider very absurd is using national symbol even in socks what a offensive attitude toward your national symbol,at least for me.

Why?

Rouxinol
04-11-2012, 12:23 PM
National identity! how they consider it because its interesting how can be cross or islamic symbol used like national identity while religion itself is dogma beyong national identity, thats oxymoron i think.
And to say about something what i consider very absurd is using national symbol even in socks what a offensive attitude toward your national symbol,at least for me.

The cross of the Order of Christ has become more than a religious symbol. The Order of Christ played a major role on Portuguese overseas expansion, so much that it became a symbol epitomizing the Portuguese people and "Portugality", as so to speak.

Hurrem sultana
04-11-2012, 12:26 PM
Why?

I guess it is a cultural thing,but in the Balkans you do not put "holy thing" on shoes/socks etc

The Ripper
04-11-2012, 12:27 PM
National identity! how they consider it because its interesting how can be cross or islamic symbol used like national identity while religion itself is dogma beyong national identity, thats oxymoron i think.
And to say about something what i consider very absurd is using national symbol even in socks what a offensive attitude toward your national symbol,at least for me.

No one expects you to understand complex issues like national identity at this point.

Rron
04-11-2012, 12:31 PM
No one expects you to understand complex issues like national identity at this point.
I wouldnt like to have same concept of national identity as yours in first place.
Instead of quoting out of context, why you dont try to answer me:rolleyes:

Hurrem sultana
04-11-2012, 12:33 PM
ripper is not portugese,he is from finland..they are more atheistic than you :P

Rron
04-11-2012, 12:41 PM
ripper is not portugese,he is from finland..they are more atheistic than you :P
Ma znam bre ja njega, znam sta on misli o drugim narodima balkana poput srba i grka, veoma je licemeran covjek, kao svi oni koju su prijateli tim spomenutim narodima.

Falkata
04-11-2012, 02:08 PM
My muslim bros are only other Albanian bros and last time when i checked i didnt saw any religious symbol side by side with our national symbols, listen up dude safinator is chatolic Tonsor too and them i consider my bros not any muslim of other nationality if your point is to make me brother with other muslims around the world, here is difference between us and you because our bros are Albanians not matter religion and only Albanians.
We separated religion from the history and national identity , but seems that you have problem with this fact , that iritate you , no matter how much we discussed here about that your idiocy is stronger than you .

That´s cool but you´re an exception in Europe. There are not hybrid muslim-Christian countries anywhere else. The old and powerful European nations have strong Christian roots :)

Hurrem sultana
04-11-2012, 02:10 PM
That´s cool but you´re an exception in Europe. There are not hybrid muslim-Christian countries anywhere else. The old and powerful European nations have strong Christian roots :)

there is Bosnia,Montenegro too ;)


plus,,the christian roots are more of a past(not in spain,portugal)...but skandinavia,germany,france

ficuscarica
04-11-2012, 02:22 PM
Offensive because of the crusades? How again did the land that the crusaders conquered become islamic?

Hurrem sultana
04-11-2012, 02:25 PM
Offensive because of the crusades? How again did the land that the crusaders conquered become islamic?

how did the western lands become christian?

Falkata
04-11-2012, 02:37 PM
there is Bosnia,Montenegro too ;)


plus,,the christian roots are more of a past(not in spain,portugal)...but skandinavia,germany,france

Bosnia and Montenegro are not "Old and powerful european countries"

I´m talking about Germany, France, Spain, Portugal,Italy, Greece, Great Britain, Netherlands or Sweden. Christianism played a very important role in their history

Many people in Spain don´t believe in god by the way. That was decades ago

%of believers per country
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Europe_belief_in_god.svg/655px-Europe_belief_in_god.svg.png

Hurrem sultana
04-11-2012, 02:39 PM
as you see there spain is among the most religious countries

Europa
04-11-2012, 02:48 PM
Some people are even capable of selling their mothers for few bucks,let alone their pride...'Dushbags' as the Yankees say.:coffee:

Vasconcelos
04-11-2012, 02:50 PM
how did the western lands become christian?

By conversion, not conquest.

Hurrem sultana
04-11-2012, 02:54 PM
forced

Europa
04-11-2012, 02:55 PM
Bosnia and Montenegro are not "Old and powerful european countries"

I´m talking about Germany, France, Spain, Portugal,Italy, Greece, Great Britain, Netherlands or Sweden. Christianism played a very important role in their history

Many people in Spain don´t believe in god by the way. That was decades ago

%of believers per country
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Europe_belief_in_god.svg/655px-Europe_belief_in_god.svg.png
This map seems very odd yet not very reliable.

Hurrem sultana
04-11-2012, 02:56 PM
This map seems very odd yet not very reliable.

why? although i doubt finland is "that" religious

Vasconcelos
04-11-2012, 02:57 PM
forced

If you say so.

Hurrem sultana
04-11-2012, 02:58 PM
If you say so.

my school teachers told me,,,,i guess swedish school system is very anti-christ

Hess
04-11-2012, 02:59 PM
i guess swedish school system is very anti-christ

extremely so. The Swedish School system is the most Marxist and Anti-Christian in all of Europe, even worse than France.

Europa
04-11-2012, 02:59 PM
why? although i doubt finland is "that" religious

Well,I can't speak about Finland,but Bulgaria has at leat 50% believers and Romania has about the same.There is no data for Russia,Macedonia and Serbia as well.

Riki
04-11-2012, 03:01 PM
I knew that is also your national symbol, but why i thought that make you very superstitious is because the cross is in every part of the sportive dress.

What's so hard for you to understand?
The symbols represent the spirit of the Portuguese People,bravery,traditions.etc.
And the National team represents Portugal and it's People.

Hurrem sultana
04-11-2012, 03:02 PM
Well,I can't speak about Finland,but Bulgaria has at leat 50% believers and Romania has about the same.There is no data for Russia,Macedonia and Serbia as well.

There have been these kind of polls in Bosnia,Croatia and Serbia

Serbia has around 20-30% atheists

at the same time ,only 55% serbians say "Religion is important" to them

Hurrem sultana
04-11-2012, 03:06 PM
extremely so. The Swedish School system is the most Marxist and Anti-Christian in all of Europe, even worse than France.

I doubt that

Vasconcelos
04-11-2012, 03:13 PM
I doubt that

Well, apparently you know even less than I do about early Christendom, so I suppose he could be right.

Riki
04-11-2012, 03:13 PM
I guess it is a cultural thing,but in the Balkans you do not put "holy thing" on shoes/socks etc
It's a Cultural thing.
In Portugal per ex,we eat the all Pork.All of It.

Falkata
04-11-2012, 03:32 PM
forced

Perhaps in your country but not in Iberia. Nobody forced the romans neither. Basically because the original christians didnt have any army

Hurrem sultana
04-11-2012, 03:35 PM
Perhaps in your country but not in Iberia. Nobody forced the romans neither. Basically because the original christians didnt have any army

i doubt the average peasant was not forced

Incal
04-11-2012, 03:43 PM
I guess it is a cultural thing,but in the Balkans you do not put "holy thing" on shoes/socks etc

A cross is not a "holy thing", it's just a cross.



as you see there spain is among the most religious countries

Even the most religious Christian country can be considered 'libertine' compared to any muslim country. It's sad that after living so long in Western Europe, you can't still understand about its culture and dynamics.

derLowe
04-11-2012, 04:05 PM
I doubt that

I can believe that, I met a few Swedish exchange students in university they were very feminist and anti-christian.

Than again I only met a few of them.

Supreme American
04-11-2012, 05:05 PM
If Muslims don't like the national and cultural symbols of a land, it seems to me the obvious solution is to not live there if they're so easily offended. Of course, though, since the Islamic world is a festering pot of feces and they don't want to live there, they do this instead to try to force people to accommodate them because at the end of the day they're as arrogant as they are incompetent.

Flintlocke
04-11-2012, 05:16 PM
It's sad that after living so long in Western Europe, you can't still understand about its culture and dynamics.

Most women can't understand anything about any culture and its dynamics :p

Vasconcelos
04-11-2012, 05:16 PM
i doubt the average peasant was not forced

Christianity spread all over the Roman Empire during the early first centuries, the only source of violence were the Romans who fought the spreading of the religion. People joined Christianity because it was appealing for the common poor folk, there were no forced conversions or slaughters against non-Christian peopleat the time, unlike what happened centuries later.

But hey, you're a muslim, so I suppose that the idea of forced conversions is deeply rooted in your ideas.

purple
04-11-2012, 05:22 PM
Football is the most politically correct sport, what do you expect. Football is nice to watch and play, it's hobby and passion, but players are easily accused of racism and UEFA likes to buy monkeys from Africa to educate them to play European style football. The only Muslim player I have respect for is Zidane. The today's generation footballers can't be compared to the old generation. And national teams of Europe are not European at all anymore. French team is as French as it gets, yo know:D

Rron
04-11-2012, 05:30 PM
If Muslims don't like the national and cultural symbols of a land, it seems to me the obvious solution is to not live there if they're so easily offended. Of course, though, since the Islamic world is a festering pot of feces and they don't want to live there, they do this instead to try to force people to accommodate them because at the end of the day they're as arrogant as they are incompetent.
Whats next blaming third party because Real Madrid changed the color of its sportive dress with aim of business in ME.


Christianity spread all over the Roman Empire during the early first centuries, the only source of violence were the Romans who fought the spreading of the religion. People joined Christianity because it was appealing for the common poor folk, there were no forced conversions or slaughters against non-Christian peopleat the time, unlike what happened centuries later.

But hey, you're a muslim, so I suppose that the idea of forced conversions is deeply rooted in your ideas.
So much contradicts in one single post!
But HEY thats not way to talk when you dont have any source to support your claims.

FALKATA ,you are talking about your christian roots ''very old''while we are all of topic here tell as more about islamic invasion in Spain , its part of Iberian history.

Vasconcelos
04-11-2012, 05:36 PM
So much contradicts in one single post!
But HEY thats not way to talk when you dont have any source to support your claims.

Not really contradicting, just different eras with different historical events.


Just read a damned book or browse online, I understand you muslims stick together, but making wild acucsations that Christendom settled in western europe because of forced conversions is pretty funny.

Rron
04-11-2012, 05:46 PM
Not really contradicting, just different eras with different historical events.


Just read a damned book or browse online, I understand you muslims stick together, but making wild acucsations that Christendom settled in western europe because of forced conversions is pretty funny.
Is this all you can do crying!



Forced conversion was a key factor in the Christianization of the Roman Empire. In 392 A.D. the emperor Theodosius I instituted a law making Christianity the only legal religion of the empire, and forbidding Pagan practices by law:

It is Our will that all the peoples who are ruled by the administration of Our Clemency shall practice that religion which the divine Peter the Apostle transmitted to the Romans....The rest, whom We adjudge demented and insane, shall sustain the infamy of heretical dogmas, their meeting places shall not receive the name of churches, and they shall be smitten first by divine vengeance and secondly by the retribution of Our own initiative" (Codex Theodosianus XVI 1.2.).[1]

This law led to the destruction of most pagan temples in the empire, and contributed largely to the demise of Paganism.

During the Saxon Wars, Charlemagne, King of the Franks, forcibly Christianized the Saxons from their native Germanic paganism by way of warfare and law upon conquest. Examples include the Massacre of Verden in 782, during which Charlemagne reportedly had 4,500 captive Saxons massacred upon rebelling against conversion, and the Capitulatio de partibus Saxoniae, a law imposed on conquered Saxons in 785 which prescribes death to those that refuse to convert to Christianity.[2]


Religious persecution took place by the Portuguese in Goa, India from 16th to the 17th century. The natives of Goa, most of them Hindus were subjected to severe torture and oppression by the zealous Portuguese rulers and missionaries and forcibly converted to Christianity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_conversion

Hurrem sultana
04-11-2012, 05:47 PM
Even the most religious Christian country can be considered 'libertine' compared to any muslim country. It's sad that after living so long in Western Europe, you can't still understand about its culture and dynamics.


I doubt Spain is less religious than an average Bosniak,Kosovar or Turk(from european part)

ficuscarica
04-11-2012, 05:57 PM
Well, Christianity spread through both free conversion and forced conversion. The roots of Christianity are peaceful, whereas Muhammad fought many wars. The example for Christians, Jesus, said we should go, tell about the gospel, and love our enemies. Muhammad killed his enemies and even some Jewish tribes that didn´t have anything to do with him. Also, the sunna teaches to kill people who leave islam. Some Christians comitted crimes against the teaching of Christ by forcing people, but islamic conquest is according to Muhammad´s teaching.

My point was to show that the crusades were only the re-conquest of land that had been overrun by early muslim conquerors. So it´s ridiculous when muslims use this to show how evil Christians were, because muslims began to attack Christian countries even as early in the time of Muhammad. It is like a child stealing the toy of another child with violence and then crying when it has to give it back.

Hurrem sultana
04-11-2012, 06:01 PM
ficuscarica..you are talking bs about islam

Koran:

There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Tâghût and believes in God (ar. Allah), then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And God is All-Hearer, All-Knower.

ficuscarica
04-11-2012, 06:05 PM
ficuscarica..you are talking bs about islam

Koran:

There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Tâghût and believes in God (ar. Allah), then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And God is All-Hearer, All-Knower.

As if I didn´t know that verse, there are many verses who contradict it, I read the qur´an. Also, is Muhammad not the perfect example? Did he not fight dozens of wars, including Jewish tribes that had nothing to do with him. Also the hadiths are important and therefore the shari´a says to kill people who leave islam, is it not true? You can even read it on wikipedia or in any standart encyclopedia. Please, tell me how islam spread so fast, what did the Turks do before the gates of Vienna, why did they come, who told them to do so? Why was Spain and France entered by conquerors? Did they not simply follow the example of Muhammad?
Older surahs are abrogated by newer ones, and a newer one than the one you quoted states.. 9:73: "O Prophet! Struggle against the unbelievers and hypocrites and be harsh with them"

You can see in Muhammad´s biography that he believed this newer one to be more important, too.

Falkata
04-11-2012, 06:05 PM
.

FALKATA ,you are talking about your christian roots ''very old''while we are all of topic here tell as more about islamic invasion in Spain , its part of Iberian history.

Indeed. Spain wouldn´t exist without the muslim invasion. It was the alliance of Christian Kingdoms against a common enemy
Unlike you we won though :D

Vasconcelos
04-11-2012, 06:08 PM
Indeed. Spain wouldn´t exist without the muslim invasion.

Perhaps it would exist in a more unified version ;)

Hurrem sultana
04-11-2012, 06:10 PM
As if I didn´t know that verse, there are many verses who contradict it, I read the qur´an. Also, is Muhammad not the perfect example? Did he not fight dozens of wars, including Jewish tribes that had nothing to do with him. Also the hadiths are important and therefore the shari´a says to kill people who leave islam, is it not true? You can even read it on wikipedia or in any standart encyclopedia. Please, tell me how islam spread so fast, what did the Turks do before the gates of Vienna, why did they come, who told them to do so? Why was Spain and France entered by conquerors? Did they not simply follow the example of Muhammad?

Koran-farz(a must)

hadith-sunnah(not a must,you can be muslim without it)

there are many false hadiths,so you can never claim anything based on a hadith,if there is nothing about it in the holy Koran

our prophet was not only a prohet,he was also a leader,he united different arabic tribes under one(islamic) flag.It has nothing to do with the theological part of islam

Rron
04-11-2012, 06:15 PM
Indeed. Spain wouldn´t exist without the muslim invasion. It was the alliance of Christian Kingdoms against a common enemy
Unlike you we won though :D
Should you or I made a thread about that :D, its interesting they conquered you for 7 years also how a great islamic civilisation you were.
May i ask you something can you give me the year of their invade and the year of end of invasion ?

Falkata
04-11-2012, 06:18 PM
Should you or I made a thread about that :D, its interesting they conquered you for 7 years also how a great islamic civilisation you were.
May i ask you something can you give me the year of their invade and the year of end of invasion ?

You´re still invaded muslim guy :D
Isn´t time to pray? What are you doing here? Allahu Akbar!

Vasconcelos
04-11-2012, 06:28 PM
its interesting they conquered you for 7 years also how a great islamic civilisation you were.
There was a civil war raging on at the time, one of the sides (which controlled the eastern half of the peninsula) called the moors for aid, that's what caused the invasion, and that's why resistence was so little and disorganized.

But it's not as simple as it seems, the northern regions (Gallaecia, Asturias and Cantabria) were not in Moorish control, it was rather a no man's land where moors couldn't even tax people and no local lords had a military presence to enforce their will. "Taxation" was done by setting up a military presence in a location and pillaging surrounding villages.

This fragile control is the reason this happened 150 years later:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-niVnydnOunY/T2ZiDcT-5pI/AAAAAAAAGpY/LTZW-AsKAJ0/s1600/Galicia+891.jpg
Even Lisbon was briefly taken..


The reason conquest took longer was the constant military reinforcements from Morocco and new invasions, there's a good chance the Reconquista would take quite a few centuries less if those didn't happen.



Anyway, sorry for the offtopic.

Falkata
04-11-2012, 06:30 PM
It´s very funny how muslims from the balkans claim that they don´t have any brotherhood with the rest of muslims yet they are always in the muslim side when we have this kind of discussions.
That´s why muslims can´t be truly european. Because in a war of Civilizations they would a 5th column. A bunch of traitors

Rron
04-11-2012, 06:34 PM
It´s very funny how muslims from the balkans claim that they don´t have any brotherhood with the rest of muslims yet they are always in the muslim side when we have this kind of discussions.
That´s why muslims can´t be truly european. Because in a war of Civilizations they would a 5th column. A bunch of traitors
Haha , history is history , you cant hide it even by calling others traitors :D:coffee:


Society was sharply divided along ethnic and religious lines, with the Arab tribes at the top of the hierarchy, followed by the Berbers who were never recognized as equals, despite their Islamization; lower in the scale came the mullawadun converts and, at the very bottom, the dhimmi Christians and Jews.

Bat Ye'or, Islam and Dhimmitude, 2002

Falkata
04-11-2012, 06:40 PM
Haha , history is history , you cant hide it even by calling others traitors :D:coffee:

We fought and won. You are still conquered by the Islam
That´s why Spain was a great empire and Albania has been always a pointless shithole with a lower standard of living than Peru :D

Rron
04-11-2012, 06:43 PM
We fought and won. You are still conquered by the Islam
That´s why Spain was a great empire and Albania has been always a pointless shithole with a lower standard of living than Peru :D
You didnt answer me about me the year of their first invade and the end of invasion :D

Hurrem sultana
04-11-2012, 06:46 PM
We fought and won. You are still conquered by the Islam
That´s why Spain was a great empire and Albania has been always a pointless shithole with a lower standard of living than Peru :D

strong arguments:D

Riki
04-11-2012, 06:48 PM
Is this all you can do crying!




During the Saxon Wars, Charlemagne, King of the Franks, forcibly Christianized the Saxons from their native Germanic paganism by way of warfare and law upon conquest. Examples include the Massacre of Verden in 782, during which Charlemagne reportedly had 4,500 captive Saxons massacred upon rebelling against conversion, and the Capitulatio de partibus Saxoniae, a law imposed on conquered Saxons in 785 which prescribes death to those that refuse to convert to Christianity.[2]


Religious persecution took place by the Portuguese in Goa, India from 16th to the 17th century. The natives of Goa, most of them Hindus were subjected to severe torture and oppression by the zealous Portuguese rulers and missionaries and forcibly converted to Christianity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_conversion

Don't trust every thing you read on Wiki.
The Hindus in India were In fact the only Religious (Other then the Christian's)
order protected by the Portuguese.
In time of invasions they(Hindus)just had to put a little Portuguese Flag in the outside of their houses.
So that we could tell which ones were Christians,Hindus or Muslims.

2Cool
04-11-2012, 06:50 PM
You didnt answer me about me the year of their first invade and the end of invasion :D

Vasconcelos answered why it took so fast for Iberia to get conquered. In fact, the Muslims didn't even plan to conquer Iberia. If you weren't aware, Iberians were used to getting raids from the Moors all the time, and would fled their villages and come back later after it was over. But this wasn't a simple raid... Also add to the fact that there was a civil war and you have a disaster waiting to happen.

Whether it took 10 years or 100 years to conquer the place doesn't matter. What matters is the lasting influence of the conqueror. And unfortunately for the Moors, Portugal and Spain surface from the Reconquista, as not only Christian countries but also the two main countries to spread Christianity around the world. The whole point was to spread the religion, and the Moors failed in Iberia.

Rron
04-11-2012, 06:58 PM
I didnt ask about how long took to conquer them but the year of their first invasion and the end of their invasion when christian reconquered the place , but i know that dont bother yourself.

2Cool
04-11-2012, 07:05 PM
I didnt ask about how long took to conquer them but the year of their first invasion and the end of their invasion when christian reqonquered the place , but i know that dont bother yourself.

You know you could have used wikipedia for that. But you are lazy, that's fine.

Here:

Beginning: 711-718 (max extent)

End in Portugal: 1249

End in Spain: 1492*


* By 1252 only Granada was left and it became a puppet state after that until it got absorbed by Spain in 1492.

Enjoy.


The Reconquista was also more complicated then simply Christians vs Muslims as in many occasions Christians states and Muslims states would join forces to fight common enemies.

Sultan Suleiman
04-11-2012, 07:08 PM
Bloody sellout whores...

Falkata
04-11-2012, 07:12 PM
strong arguments:D.

Why dont you live in your muslim shithole then rather than being a parasite in an european christian country?

:D

Phil75231
04-11-2012, 07:12 PM
Real Madrid has no reason to remove the cross from its logo. This is just catering to the whims of certain Islamic Fundamentalists. That's like christians moving to Torkey or Egypt, then demanding the crescent be removed from all sorts of this and that.

2Cool
04-11-2012, 07:15 PM
Real Madrid has no reason to remove the cross from its logo. This is just catering to the whims of certain Islamic Fundamentalists. That's like christians moving to Torkey or Egypt, then demanding the crescent be removed from all sorts of this and that.

No it's not since nobody is moving anywhere. Muslims in Europe have nothing to do with this. Nor is it an issue with Islamic Fundamentalists. This is a 100% financial and business decision from Real Madrid's part to maximize their profits with their sponsors.

I wonder what you guys think about the supposed team in La Liga that will be renamed Team Dubai due to their new owners..

Rron
04-11-2012, 07:17 PM
You know you could have used wikipedia for that. But you are lazy, that's fine.
It was ironic question , in first place he derailed this thread with his religious crap.
About Cordoba:

there were half a million inhabitants, living in 113,000 houses. There were 700 mosques and 300 public baths spread throughout the city and its twenty-one suburbs. The streets were paved and lit...There were bookshops and more than seventy libraries.



The mosque at Cordoba, now converted to a cathedral is still, somewhat ironically, known as La Mezquita or literally, the mosque.

Falkata
04-11-2012, 07:17 PM
Real madrid is playing today against atletico de madrid. I gonna watch the match and drink some beers so see you tomorrow

PD: if you're muslim drink a glass of water instead: D

Hurrem sultana
04-11-2012, 07:19 PM
.

Why dont you live in your muslim shithole then rather than being a parasite in an european christian country?

:D

1.I live where i want,Sweden is not a "christian country" it is secular ;) this is not Spain

2.I am not a parasite,my family works and pays the taxes just like any other

Comte Arnau
04-11-2012, 07:24 PM
I doubt Spain is less religious than an average Bosniak,Kosovar or Turk(from european part)


1.I live where i want,Sweden is not a "christian country" it is secular ;) this is not Spain

It is quite obvious that your knowledge about Spain is close to zero.

Flintlocke
04-11-2012, 07:25 PM
Shut up you fuckers you have totally offtopiced the thread.

Rron
04-11-2012, 07:26 PM
Real madrid is playing today against atletico de madrid. I gonna watch the match and drink some beers so see you tomorrow

PD: if you're muslim drink a glass of water instead: D
Atletico will win:D

2Cool
04-11-2012, 07:27 PM
It was ironic question , in first place he derailed this thread with his religious crap.
About Cordoba:




The mosque at Cordoba, now converted to a cathedral is still, somewhat ironically, known as La Mezquita or literally, the mosque.

Yeah so? I can't imagine of a better way to denote supremacy and victory over another religious entity than to convert the place of worship of their defeated civilization to your own.

Besides it's nice building and a piece of history. I'm happy they didn't destroy it. The Ottomans did the same thing with churches in the Byzantine Empire, like with the Hagia Sophia. Hell, they were so impressed with it that they used its design on their own Mosques.

Comte Arnau
04-11-2012, 07:28 PM
I'm an Atlético fan today. Long live Neptune!

Siberyak
04-11-2012, 07:29 PM
Why do europeans continue to bend over and take it up the ass from these people?

Rron
04-11-2012, 07:30 PM
I'm an Atlético fan today. Long live Neptune!
Barca is only 4 points away from Real , if they win they would do a great favour to Barca.

Comte Arnau
04-11-2012, 07:33 PM
Barca is only 4 points away from Real , if they win they would do a great favour to Barca.

That's why I'm an Atlético fan today. ;)

Real would be 1 point above, and they have to come here to Camp Nou next week. :D

Rron
04-11-2012, 07:40 PM
Yeah so? I can't imagine of a better way to denote supremacy and victory over another religious entity than to convert the place of worship of their defeated civilization to your own.

Besides it's nice building and a piece of history. I'm happy they didn't destroy it. The Ottomans did the same thing with churches in the Byzantine Empire, like with the Hagia Sophia. Hell, they were so impressed with it that they used its design on their own Mosques.
I think we should end this discussion about religion, since im atheist i consider harmful religion not matter which one.


That's why I'm an Atlético fan today. ;)

Real would be 1 point above, and they have to come here to Camp Nou next week. :D
Its gona be a great game, but not like Real vs Valencia

Incal
04-11-2012, 07:51 PM
I doubt Spain is less religious than an average Bosniak,Kosovar or Turk(from european part)

I think both religions are too diferent they can't even be compared in terms of 'practice'. While christianity is some sort of 'philosophy of life' and as such, it can be interpreted in diferent ways by many; Islam is basically a set of rules which have to be obeyed.

Now I can't talk for others, but we just had the Semana Santa, I wonder if the spanish members here went to the church and pray of were just home chillin'. Here we call it 'Semana Tranca' (Tranca means drunken orgy in peruvian slang) and we go to the beaches (to the bitches too), get drunk and get wasted.

Comte Arnau
04-11-2012, 07:55 PM
Now I can't talk for others, but we just had the Semana Santa, I wonder if the spanish members here went to the church and pray of were just home chillin'. Here we call it 'Semana Tranca' (Tranca means drunken orgy in peruvian slang) and we go to the beaches (to the bitches too), get drunk and get wasted.

Church attendance in Catalonia is as low as in Finland, according to recent statistics.

The most religious area in Spain is in rural old Castilian towns, where church attendance can reach peaks of 44%.

Hess
04-11-2012, 08:08 PM
Koran-farz(a must)

hadith-sunnah(not a must,you can be muslim without it)

there are many false hadiths,so you can never claim anything based on a hadith,if there is nothing about it in the holy Koran

our prophet was not only a prohet,he was also a leader,he united different arabic tribes under one(islamic) flag.It has nothing to do with the theological part of islam

Here are some directly from the Quran. Islam is a religion that promotes aggressive expansion if not outright conquest of Infidel countries.


Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad and this is reflected in other translations of the verse).

Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah" Some translations interpret "fitna" as "persecution", but the traditional understanding of this word is not supported by the historical context (See notes for 2:293, also). The Meccans were simply refusing Muhammad access to their city during Haj. Other Muslims were allowed to travel there - just not as an armed group, since Muhammad had declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah", meaning that the true justification of violence was the unbelief of the opposition. According to the Sira (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 324) Muhammad further explains that "Allah must have no rivals."

Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."

Phil75231
04-11-2012, 08:40 PM
No it's not since nobody is moving anywhere. Muslims in Europe have nothing to do with this. Nor is it an issue with Islamic Fundamentalists. This is a 100% financial and business decision from Real Madrid's part to maximize their profits with their sponsors.

I wonder what you guys think about the supposed team in La Liga that will be renamed Team Dubai due to their new owners..

From a strictly financial and business perspective, I agree with you. In the totality of things, it is a restriction on authentic local culture (I admit not a huge one, given the cross was apparently barely visible, but even so). Still, this can set a bad precedent in that its a reflection of how much people value preserving their culture. It's perfectly possible to preserve local Spanish cultural symbols and allow newcomers to preserve their own culture - as long as both avoid fundamentalism/purist tendencies (in which case the issue is the fundamentalism/purity, not the symbols themselves).

Riki
04-11-2012, 08:44 PM
Why do europeans continue to bend over and take it up the ass from these people?

You should wake up for the reality of your Country.
Even your President is Black and a Muslim.
To late for you guy's.We at least can still fight It.

2Cool
04-11-2012, 08:45 PM
From a strictly financial and business perspective, I agree with you. In the totality of things, it is a restriction on authentic local culture (I admit not a huge one, given the cross was apparently barely visible, but even so). Still, this can set a bad precedent in that its a reflection of how much people value preserving their culture. It's perfectly possible to preserve local Spanish cultural symbols and allow newcomers to preserve their own culture - as long as both avoid fundamentalism/purist tendencies (in which case the issue is the fundamentalism/purity, not the symbols themselves).

I get what you mean but we are talking about a sports team here not a country. Besides, it took a while before the crown was added to their crest. The crown was even removed during Franco's reign.

Hess
04-11-2012, 08:47 PM
Even your President is Black and a Muslim.

I'm usually the first one to attack America and believe me, they have a lot to be attacked for, but this is one accusations that just doesn't have any merit.

Obama's just a Liberal Globalist "Christian", nothing more :shrug:

Riki
04-11-2012, 08:51 PM
I'm usually the first one to attack America and believe me, they have a lot to be attacked for, but this is one accusations that just doesn't have any merit.

Obama's just a Liberal Globalist "Christian", nothing more :shrug:

Is that a new trend?
Never heard of It,prior to today.
"]Liberal Globalist "Christian" Define this.
Or is It F...s every one else for his own interest?

Hess
04-11-2012, 08:56 PM
Liberal Globalist "Christian" Define this

Like Clinton, Jimmy Carter, Nancy Pelosi, and most other Democrats, he's just the average American Liberal Politician that claims to be a Christian but acts more like an Atheist.

2Cool
04-11-2012, 09:00 PM
Is that a new trend?
Never heard of It,prior to today.
"]Liberal Globalist "Christian" Define this.
Or is It F...s every one else for his own interest?

He's not Muslim dude we was also born in Hawaii. And yes he has the birth certificate to prove it.

Damião de Góis
04-11-2012, 09:39 PM
But what happens when a religious symbol becomes a national symbol? ;)

That cross isn't really a religious symbol. It's the symbol of a military order.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Christ_(Portugal)

2Cool
04-11-2012, 09:43 PM
Go Ronaldo! :)

Supreme American
04-11-2012, 10:03 PM
Is that a new trend?
Never heard of It,prior to today.
"]Liberal Globalist "Christian" Define this.
Or is It F...s every one else for his own interest?

His theology is specifically the black version of Liberation Theology which began as a Marxist-inspired version of Christianity that seeped into the Catholic Church decades ago.

Obama was a Muslim as a kid, attended a school in Indonesia where he was enrolled as a Muslim took Quran classes.

Falkata
04-11-2012, 10:04 PM
Atletico will win:D

I dont support Atletico neither Real Madrid :D
Anyway Real Madrid won 1-4 as they always do against Atletico.
A draw would be better. The league would be more exciting

Damião de Góis
04-11-2012, 10:11 PM
PS: Check the 2nd goal of C.Ronaldo. Great one :D

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xq2d9h_atletico-madrid-vs-real-madrid-1-2-cristiano-ronaldo_sport?start=0#from=embed

That other spaniard who lives in Scotland (i don't remember his name, since he was always changing it) said he should go. He wasn't good enough for the "image" of Real Madrid, or something like that :D

Loki
04-11-2012, 10:17 PM
Your ancestors didnt build those countries therefore you and your family are parasites. They didnt die for those countries and they didnt fight for them neither.
First Germany and now Sweden.
And the worst thing about it is that you insult them even in this forum (greedy swedes, ugly germans and so on) when when you should be licking their feet

You´re lucky that men here are more interested in what you´ve between your legs than what you´ve inside your head.

PS: Check the 2nd goal of C.Ronaldo. Great one :D

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xq2d9h_atletico-madrid-vs-real-madrid-1-2-cristiano-ronaldo_sport?start=0#from=embed

Please don't insult bosnian again - I ask you kindly.

StonyArabia
04-13-2012, 07:17 AM
I am not bothered by any symbols, the action was pathetic more so than cowardly.

Sikeliot
04-13-2012, 07:17 AM
I'm late to the thread, but it took me forever to even notice where the cross was. :lol:

Siberyak
04-13-2012, 07:37 AM
You should wake up for the reality of your Country.
Even your President is Black and a Muslim.
To late for you guy's.We at least can still fight It.

Sorry but Euro Americans don't have legitimate claims to the USA you dumb fuck. I currently live in an area that used to belong to Mexico and has a large Native American population.