Portuguese accent Celtic-influenced?

[Celtiberi]

Portugal (Galacia) were home to Celtic peoples, before they were Romanized. The people of these regions spoke Celtic languages, until vulgar Latin replaced the old vernacular.

Yet, as when anyone speaks a second language, they retain the accent of their mother tounge. Both of these languages happen to have nasalization. Could it be that this particular aspect of their phonology comes from a Celtic accent?

[Vasconcelos]

Podes escrever Português aqui.

[Wulfhere]

Portugal (Galacia) were home to Celtic peoples, before they were Romanized. The people of these regions spoke Celtic languages, until vulgar Latin replaced the old vernacular.

Yet, as when anyone speaks a second language, they retain the accent of their mother tounge. Both of these languages happen to have nasalization. Could it be that this particular aspect of their phonology comes from a Celtic accent?

No. Celtic languages are not known for their nasalisation. English, in fact, is far more nasalised than any Celtic language.

[dralos]

same here,many celts lived in my birthcountry too
is there a chance we're celtic brothers

[Atlantic Islander]

:roll eyes

[Damião de Góis]

Portugal (Galacia) were home to Celtic peoples, before they were Romanized. The people of these regions spoke Celtic languages, until vulgar Latin replaced the old vernacular.

Yet, as when anyone speaks a second language, they retain the accent of their mother tounge. Both of these languages happen to have nasalization. Could it be that this particular aspect of their phonology comes from a Celtic accent?

Olá, de onde és? E porquê o "Nordid" na subrace?

[Vasconcelos]

No. Celtic languages are not known for their nasalisation. English, in fact, is far more nasalised than any Celtic language.

"Nasal vowels are found in many European languages, such as French, Portuguese, Breton, Polish."

Not to mention that Celtic languages that survived come form Insular Celtic, and not Continental like the languages that existed in Iberia and Gaul.
Also, language alone does not make one Celtic.

[Wulfhere]

"Nasal vowels are found in many European languages, such as French, Portuguese, Breton, Polish."

Even assuming that's a real quote (since it isn't sourced), so what? Breton is hardly a typical Celtic language, having been influenced by French for a millennium or more, and French is so nasal it sounds like they talk through their noses.

[Prince Carlo]

same here,many celts lived in my birthcountry too
is there a chance we're celtic brothers

Celts in Albania. Interesting. Do you have a link to an article?

[Falkata]

http://adaptershack.com/m/files/i252.photobucket.com_albums_hh21_madtabby66_Online _ObviousTroll.jpg

[Falkata]

same here,many celts lived in my birthcountry too
is there a chance we're celtic brothers

Weren´t you vikings? :icon_lol:

[Celtiberi]

It was just a question guys no need to get paranoid.

[Anthropologique]

Even assuming that's a real quote (since it isn't sourced), so what? Breton is hardly a typical Celtic language, having been influenced by French for a millennium or more, and French is so nasal it sounds like they talk through their noses.

Nasalization in Breton may have come from Gaulish (an early Celtic language) influences.

[Vasconcelos]

I've read about that theory, but it doesn't have much to hold on to, which doesn't mean it's not true.

Honestly I don't think latin is a very nasal language, something must have happened in the northwest of the península that made the language so nasalized, but not here next to us...the only difference I see is the Suevian presence or the difference between Galaico-Lusitani (and Celtici + Conii if you will) and Celtiberi + Cantabri..

[Wulfhere]

Nasalization in Breton may have come from Gaulish (an early Celtic language) influences.

How is that possible? Breton is descended from British, the language that also evolved into Welsh and Cornish. It has no connection with Continental Celtic languages, which hadn't been spoken for hundreds of years.

[Albion]

This isn't an easy question, no one knows what the accent of the Lusitanians or Gallecians was like.
The best we can do is look to reconstructed vocabulary and then render the sounds based on the closest living language and then see how it sounds like, if it shares any features with Portuguese.

So find some Lusitanian words, render the sounds based on similar words in a Q-Celtic language (such as Irish) and then see what it sounds like. If any of it is recognisable then I suppose a Celtic language may have influenced the accent.

[Anthropologique]

How is that possible? Breton is descended from British, the language that also evolved into Welsh and Cornish. It has no connection with Continental Celtic languages, which hadn't been spoken for hundreds of years.

We are talking only about nasalization. There were early Gaulish influences in Brittany of various types.

Note: Go to the Lowlands-L: Anniversary Celebration Blog and search under "Brezhoneg (Breton).

[Odoacer]

Portugal (Galacia) were home to Celtic peoples, before they were Romanized. The people of these regions spoke Celtic languages, until vulgar Latin replaced the old vernacular.

Yet, as when anyone speaks a second language, they retain the accent of their mother tounge. Both of these languages happen to have nasalization. Could it be that this particular aspect of their phonology comes from a Celtic accent?

Latin itself had nasalized vowels. Is there any particular reason to suppose their development in Portuguese is the result of Celtic influence?

[Wulfhere]

We are talking only about nasalization. There were early Gaulish influences in Brittany.

What evidence is there that any Celtic language was nasalised?

Have you heard of the principle of Occam's Razor? It means that all else being equal, the simplest explanation is the best. Breton has existed alongside French, and been influenced by it, for 1500 years, and French is a very nasalised language.

[Vasconcelos]

Latin itself had nasalized vowels. Is there any particular reason to suppose their development in Portuguese is the result of Celtic influence?

Portuguese is much more nasalized than latin, and (Visi)Gothic isn't exactly very nasal (the language was quickly abandoned by germanics after arriving in Iberia anyway).

[Anthropologique]

What evidence is there that any Celtic language was nasalised?

Have you heard of the principle of Occam's Razor? It means that all else being equal, the simplest explanation is the best. Breton has existed alongside French, and been influenced by it, for 1500 years, and French is a very nasalised language.

Yes, I've heard of Occam's Razor.:rolleyes:

I've added to my last post. Go to the blog listed as a start.

[Wulfhere]

Portuguese is much more nasalized than latin, and (Visi)Gothic isn't exactly very nasal (the language was quickly abandoned by germanics after arriving in Iberia anyway).

There is no evidence that any Celtic language was nasalised, yet we know Latin was, as are its descendants.

[Vasconcelos]

There is no evidence that any Celtic language was nasalised, yet we know Latin was, as are its descendants.

If you bother to read what I wrote before you'll realize I'm not defending that Portuguese is nasalized because of Celtic language(s).

[Odoacer]

Portuguese is much more nasalized than latin, and (Visi)Gothic isn't exactly very nasal (the language was quickly abandoned by germanics after arriving in Iberia anyway).

Yes, it's more nasalized than Latin: In Portuguese, nasal vowels replace vowel + nasal consonant combinations. But what is the reason to suppose that Portuguese vowel nasalization was the result of Celtic influence, as the OP proposes?

[Wulfhere]

If you bother to read what I wrote before you'll realize I'm not defending that Portuguese is nasalized because of Celtic language(s).

But you did say that Breton was, which is rubbish, because Welsh and Cornish aren't. It is clear that any nasalisation in Breton comes from French influence, and French is so nasalised it sounds like they've all got colds.

[Vasconcelos]

But you did say that Breton was, which is rubbish, because Welsh and Cornish aren't. It is clear that any nasalisation in Breton comes from French influence, and French is so nasalised it sounds like they've all got colds.

Oh the quote, I took it from wiki :)

I do not know if it's french influenced or not, as I do not know Breton.


EDIT: This begs the question, why did French become so nasalized aswell?

[Wulfhere]

You're mistaking me for Anthropologique. I find that flattering, but I'm not him.

I do not know Breton, therefore I don't speak about it, I like to be honest, unlike some people on these forums who talk about stuff they have no clue about.

Apologies, in that case. :)

[Vasconcelos]

Apologies, in that case. :)

I'm sorry, I edited the post, you might want to take a new look at it.
Thank you for quoting anyway. (no sarcasm)

[Wulfhere]

I'm sorry, I edited the post, you might want to take a new look at it.
Thank you for quoting anyway. (no sarcasm)

The question of why French is so nasalised is an interesting one. Norman French wasn't, but that no longer exists. The extreme, even comical nasalisation exhibited by French seems to be a development of recent centuries.

[Catrau]

Lusitanean language inscriptions written in latin letters.

One could imagine how it sound like... (?)

Arroyo de la Luz (III), Caceres

http://www.celtiberia.net/verimg.asp?id=5147
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Lusitano1.jpg
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Lusitano2.jpg
ISAICCID. RVETI. PVPPID. CARLAE. EN ETOM. INDI. NA(.) (....) CE. IOM. M
Thus the posthumous rise of Carla, an input and a pure friend recall her.



Cabeço das Fráguas, Guarda
II century dC
http://www.portugalromano.com/2011/01/santuario-lusitano-romano-de-cabeco-das-fraguas/
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Lusitano2-2.png
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Lusitano2b.jpg
OILAM TREBOPALA - a sheep to Trebopala (protecting god of the comunity)
INDI PORCOM LAEBO - and a pig to Laebo (god of hope)
COMMAIAM ICCONA LOIM - offering to Iccona Loim (healing light goddess)
INNA OILAM VSSEAM - a one year old sheep
TREBARVNE INDI TAVROM IFADEM[…] - to Trebaruna (village confident) and a bull stud
REVE TRE[…] - to Reue Trebona (spirit of the Earth)

Castro do Cabeço das Fráguas
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Lusitano2c.jpg




Lamas de Moledo, Castro d'Aire (Viseu)
II century dC
http://www.portugalromano.com/2011/01/a-inscricao-lusitana-romana-de-lamas-de-moledo/
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Lusitano3.jpg
http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Lusitano3b.jpg
RUFUS ET
TIRO SCRIP
SERUNT
VEAMINICORI
DOENTI
ANGOM
LAMATICOM
CROUCEAO
MACA
REAICOI PETRANOI R(?)
ADOM PORCOM IOUEAS(?)
CAELOBRICOI

Rufino and Tiro determined: The Clan of Veaminis (Veamini) to offer a defensive hill to the queen mother of the prestigious Petranios. Ensuring (providing) a thriving pig for young Caelobrigenses people (citizens) .

[Anthropologique]

No one knows with any certainty if Gaulish had nasalization. However, at one time, Gaulish was spoken in practically all of what we know today as France, including Brittany. We also have some evidence that there was at least some Gaulish influence in North-west Iberia, or ancient Gallaecia, via migration through Aquitaine. The only two major European languages with nasalization are French and Portuguese and both may have had Gaulish influences in varying degrees.

I can assure you that Breton does indeed contain nasalizations, having heard it and attempted to speak it (rather badly) many times. The question is, did the nasalization features originate from modern French or Gaulish? Breton was not solely impacted / formed by the Celtic languages spoken in southern Britain.

There is a lot to this puzzle, folks. Keep trucking...

[Wulfhere]

No one knows with any certainty if Gaulish had nasalization. However, at one time, Gaulish was spoken in practically all of what we know today as France, including Brittany. We also have some evidence that there was at least some Gaulish influence in North-west Iberia, or ancient Gallaecia, via migration through Aquitaine. The only two major European languages with nasalization are French and Portuguese and both may have had Gaulish influences in varying degrees.

I can assure you that Breton does indeed contain nasalizations, having heard it and attempted to speak it (rather badly) many times. The question is, did the nasalization features originate from modern French or Gaulish? Breton was not solely impacted / formed by the Celtic languages spoken in southern Britain.

There is a lot to this puzzle, folks. Keep trucking...

I'm afraid you're incorrect. Breton, was indeed, solely "impacted / formed" by the Celtic languages of southern Britain - because that's precisely where it came from. Anything that claims otherwise is disgraceful revisionism.

[Albion]

I'm afraid you're incorrect. Breton, was indeed, solely "impacted / formed" by the Celtic languages of southern Britain - because that's precisely where it came from. Anything that claims otherwise is disgraceful revisionism.

I would be surprised if it didn't have at least a slight Gaulish substratum though.

[Wulfhere]

I would be surprised if it didn't have at least a slight Gaulish substratum though.

Since Gaulish had died out about 500 years earlier, it seems unlikely.

[Ouistreham]

The only two major European languages with nasalization are French and Portuguese and both may have had Gaulish influences in varying degrees.

Impossible.

Why would Portuguese use nazalisation while the neighbouring Castilians, with their alleged Celtic legacy, do not?

The Southern French ignore nasal vowels. They had an indisputable Gaulic substrate though.

To explain evolution and peculiarities of languages with substrates and superstrates is just silly. A language evolves only because of its internal dynamics. Period.

Portuguese doesn't sound like Spanish because it's another language, that's all.

Similarly, once closely related Swedish and Danish, that still were one language less than ten centuries ago, evolved in opposite directions since then, and sound now incredibly different from each other. Not only respective phonetics were affected, but even word stressing became different (Danish ignores the famous secondary tonal stress of Swedish and Norwegian).


Since Gaulish had died out about 500 years earlier, it seems unlikely.

Wrong. Gaulish died out at least 100 or 200 years after Breton refugees landed in present day Brittany.


The question of why French is so nasalised is an interesting one. Norman French wasn't, but that no longer exists. The extreme, even comical nasalisation exhibited by French seems to be a development of recent centuries.

It's a relatively recent phenomenon, which started in the late Middle Age and was completed in the mid 17th century. Examination of French Renaissance poetry and rhymes give a clue of how French used to be spoken back then (with all letters being pronounced, including final -s).

The switch probably began in Normandy, at the time Norman scholar Malherbe decided to develop the standard of modern French, in the early-to-mid 17th century.

[Albion]

Since Gaulish had died out about 500 years earlier, it seems unlikely.

Oh come on! Languages don't just vanish of the face of the earth, at the very least it would have left lots of dialect words in the local version of broken Latin.

A lot of rural areas can be conservative, a lot of these words would have survived in my opinion.

[2Cool]

Impossible.

Why would Portuguese use nazalisation while the neighbouring Castilians, with their alleged Celtic legacy, do not?

The Southern French ignore nasal vowels. They had an indisputable Gaulic substrate though.

To explain evolution and peculiarities of languages with substrates and superstrates is just silly. A language evolves only because of its internal dynamics. Period.

Portuguese doesn't sound like Spanish because it's another language, that's all.

Similarly, once closely related Swedish and Danish, that still were one language less than ten centuries ago, evolved in opposite directions since then, and sound now incredibly different from each other. Not only respective phonetics were affected, but even word stressing became different (Danish ignores the famous secondary tonal stress of Swedish and Norwegian).



Wrong. Gaulish died out at least 100 or 200 years after Breton refugees landed in present day Brittany.



It's a relatively recent phenomenon, which started in the late Middle Age and was completed in the mid 17th century. Examination of French Renaissance poetry and rhymes give a clue of how French used to be spoken back then (with all letters being pronounced, including final -s).

The switch probably began in Normandy, at the time Norman scholar Malherbe decided to develop the standard of modern French, in the early-to-mid 17th century.

Are there audio clips of people reading these poems with the French accent from the Middle Ages? Like on youtube maybe?

[Damião de Góis]

We now know that the person who started this thread wasn't what he was claiming to be. He certainly didn't reply when i addressed him in portuguese either.... All this makes this thread trollish and useless. Portuguese is a latin language.

[Ouistreham]

Are there audio clips of people reading these poems with the French accent from the Middle Ages? Like on youtube maybe?

I suggest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlZfoHTZy2U&feature=relmfu

It's a public performance of Molière & Lully's Bourgeois Gentilhomme, entirely made according to original conditions, with baroque instruments, only candle light, and French pronounciation of Louis the 14th era (strongly rolled r's, only half-nasals, most final consonants pronounced etc.).

You can skip the overture and hear the comedians' speech from 8.30.

Welcome to the time machine!

[Comte Arnau]

If anything, all Western Romance languages but for Aragonese have been influenced by Celtic. That is, Portuguese, Galician, Asturian, Spanish, Catalan, Gascon-Occitan, the French-Oilitan languages, Arpitan and the Rhaeto-Padanian languages.

[2Cool]

I suggest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlZfoHTZy2U&feature=relmfu

It's a public performance of Molière & Lully's Bourgeois Gentilhomme, entirely made according to original conditions, with baroque instruments, only candle light, and French pronounciation of Louis the 14th era (strongly rolled r's, only half-nasals, most final consonants pronounced etc.).

You can skip the overture and hear the comedians' speech from 8.30.

Welcome to the time machine!

Interesting. What's really interesting is that some communities, usually small towns in Quebec, speak/spoke with rolled Rs. Sometimes you'll see older folks that speak like that. I guess that comes from old French.

[Ouistreham]

What's really interesting is that some communities, usually small towns in Quebec, speak/spoke with rolled Rs. Sometimes you'll see older folks that speak like that. I guess that comes from old French.

Yes. Uvular 'r' became standard in French in the early 19th century but still in the mid-20th many people routinely rolled their r's, especially in some provinces like Burgundy, Berry, Maine and Lower Normandy, as well as the whole South-West.

But at some point this became stereotyped and ridiculed as peasant speech, in the 60/70's (*). Now rolled 'r' is in terminal decline in France. A similar evolution started short after in Quebec.

(*)Two songs from that era, making fun of farmers and common countryside people:

R0yjtl_sZJo

mQ-EBbjmkLk

[Anthropologique]

Oh come on! Languages don't just vanish of the face of the earth, at the very least it would have left lots of dialect words in the local version of broken Latin.

A lot of rural areas can be conservative, a lot of these words would have survived in my opinion.

I agree.

No question Gaulish survived in Brittany, at the very least, residually after the migrations from southern Britain. At least one other French person contributing to the thread who is knowledgable on the subject concurs.

Bottom line: it's likely that Breton was impacted in some way by Gaulish.

[Wulfhere]

I agree.

No question Gaulish survived in Brittany, at the very least, residually after the migrations from southern Britain. At least one other French person contributing to the thread who is knowledgable on the subject concurs.

Bottom line: it's likely that Breton was impacted in some way by Gaulish.

Why is there "no question"?

It would appear that the last surviving pockets of Gaulish were in the far north-east of France, and in the centre. Both a very long way from Brittany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaulish#History

Celtic culture in Brittany is an import from Britain (there's a clue in the name, you see). An unpalatable fact for some, no doubt, but true nevertheless.

[Anthropologique]

Why is there "no question"?

It would appear that the last surviving pockets of Gaulish were in the far north-east of France, and in the centre. Both a very long way from Brittany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaulish#History

Celtic culture in Brittany is an import from Britain (there's a clue in the name, you see). An unpalatable fact for some, no doubt, but true nevertheless.

I'm certainly not at all bothered by the origins of Celticity in Brittany. The point that I am stressing is that the Breton language could have been influenced by Gaulish in some way since it was spoken in parts of Brittany prior to the migrations from England.

[Ouistreham]

the last surviving pockets of Gaulish were in the far north-east of France, and in the centre. Both a very long way from Brittany.

Wrong!

Roman presence was (logically) intense in the Mediterranean part of France, and more generally in the Southern half of the country (except for the mountainous districts of Auvergne), and was very important too in the North-East, for obvious strategical reasons, in front of the Germanic build-up along the Rhine.

But in the West/Northwest (Brittany, Maine, Anjou, Touraine, Normandy, Picardy, that weren't of any strategic value) there was little to no Roman presence. Consequently, if there was any region able to retain some Celtic culture for a longer time than elsewhere, it had to be there.

Thanks for playing, try again, good luck next time.

[Peter Nirsch]

It sounds like Brazilian

[Vasconcelos]

It sounds like Brazilian

Do you realize how insulting that is for Portuguese? :rolleyes2:
Not to mention false, both accents are clearly different

[Apina]

(I didn't read all the pages so what I say may have been suggested already)
I think that if any other language did influence the nasalisation of Portuguese it was French. When I went to Portugal and looked at some of the language, it surprised me the French influence on the vocabulary (much more so than e.g. in Spanish). Perhaps French could have influenced?

[Vasconcelos]

(I didn't read all the pages so what I say may have been suggested already)
I think that if any other language did influence the nasalisation of Portuguese it was French. When I went to Portugal and looked at some of the language, it surprised me the French influence on the vocabulary (much more so than e.g. in Spanish). Perhaps French could have influenced?

The writing influence is not French, but Occitan (close enough:thumb001:). Some of the writing forms were intruduced by an Occitan who became Bishop of Braga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_of_Braga) in 1100.

[Anthropologique]

It sounds like Brazilian

Brazilian is not a language. Brazil's language is Portuguese.

[Anthropologique]

The writing influence is not French, but Occitan (close enough:thumb001:). Some of the writing forms were intruduced by an Occitan who became Bishop of Braga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_of_Braga) in 1100.

Good info.:thumb001:

[Ouistreham]

When I went to Portugal and looked at some of the language, it surprised me the French influence on the vocabulary (much more so than e.g. in Spanish). Perhaps French could have influenced?

No. I can't figure out how French could have any influence on Portuguese. Portugal and core France (i.e. the North) are worlds apart.

You know, it's just like the strange similarities between Spanish and Italian (which were originally separated by umpteen miles and many dialects like Catalan, Languedocian, Provençal, Ligurian etc.). And more specifically, which Italian dialect is closest to Spanish? Venetian, in the Italian deep Northeast, the Italian province that ist most remote from the Iberian South-West of Europe!

Of all Romance languages, the most syllable-timed is Spanish. As a matter of fact Venetian comes as close second (typical Italian double consonants are carefully ignored there).

Look at a map of Venice, you'll find (for instance) a 'Calle San Salvador' (in standard Italian it should be 'Via San Salvatore'). Sounds very Spanish, isn't it?

But this is just a random encounter, which doesn't imply any parentage in any way.

[2Cool]

Any influence that French had on Portuguese would have come during the 19th century, when French was seen as classy.

[Atlantic Islander]

Micaelense is French influenced.

[Apina]

Just a few vocabulary examples that I remember (Portuguese, French, Spanish respettively):
chapéu - chapeau - sombrero?
rua - rue - calle?
greve - greve - huelga?

and there are many others (where Spanish seems the isolate in comparison with French and Portuguese)

[Anthropologique]

Just a few vocabulary examples that I remember (Portuguese, French, Spanish respettively):
chapéu - chapeau - sombrero?
rua - rue - calle?
greve - greve - huelga?

and there are many others (where Spanish seems the isolate in comparison with French and Portuguese)

The word rua is also sometimes used in Salamanca province, much of which borders N. Portugal.

[Ouistreham]

rua - rue - calle?


Just a random coincidence.

In the old town centre of Modena (Emilia, Italy), streets are also called rua.

Which is not any more meaningfull than the calle of Venice.

http://www.comune.modena.it/multimediamo/prodotti-multimediali/foto/2011/rua-freda/rua-freda/image_preview

[2Cool]

Micaelense is French influenced.

I don't think so.

[Catrau]

I think that if any other language did influence the nasalisation of Portuguese it was French. When I went to Portugal and looked at some of the language, it surprised me the French influence on the vocabulary (much more so than e.g. in Spanish).

And in gramatics too... the same tortuous rules..:cool:

[Wulfhere]

Wrong!

Roman presence was (logically) intense in the Mediterranean part of France, and more generally in the Southern half of the country (except for the mountainous districts of Auvergne), and was very important too in the North-East, for obvious strategical reasons, in front of the Germanic build-up along the Rhine.

But in the West/Northwest (Brittany, Maine, Anjou, Touraine, Normandy, Picardy, that weren't of any strategic value) there was little to no Roman presence. Consequently, if there was any region able to retain some Celtic culture for a longer time than elsewhere, it had to be there.

Thanks for playing, try again, good luck next time.

The literary record clearly indicates what I said. The rest is just speculation.

[Catrau]

Occitano

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Facebook/Frana/45699_1547101395974_1188234743_1575249_7837690_n.j pg

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w420/1Catrau/Facebook/Frana/44387_1547100635955_1188234743_1575247_449547_n.jp g

I kinda liked the place.
Hey Vasconcelos, I'll let French gramatics go.

[Atlantic Islander]

I don't think so.

It is. That's why it tends to sound strange even to the other islanders.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ke8loeb1Jc

this one's even better, it's really difficult to understand him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oZh9ibe-qg&feature=relmfu

[Vasconcelos]

It is. That's why it tends to sound strange even to the other islanders.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ke8loeb1Jc

this one's even better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oZh9ibe-qg&feature=relmfu

I always thought it sounded somewhat similar to french, but is there something to confirm this?



btw plastictuga, do you speak Portuguese? Think all of your posts I've read so far were in English.

[Atlantic Islander]

I always thought it sounded somewhat similar to french, but is there something to confirm this?

Probably because of the French settlers:

"The impact of this early diversity, especially Flemish (in Faial) and French Breton (in São Miguel), can still be seen and heard among many Azorean descendants today."

"The French presence, by contrast, is much less documented, but many historians and linguists agree that some early settlers came from Brittany and they point to an area known as Bretanha in northwestern São Miguel as evidence (Chapin 1989). In addition, the very distinctive ―French sounding‖ vowels (i.e. ―ü‖ vs. ―ooh‖ and ―euh‖ vs. ―oye‖) – which characterize the variety of Portuguese spoken on the island (known as Micaelense) – are believed to have been influenced by a francophone presence.9"

https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bitstream/1807/30088/12/daSilva_Emanuel_A_201111_PhD_thesis.pdf


btw plastictuga, do you speak Portuguese? Think all of your posts I've read so far were in English.

I speak it, but cannot write it.

[Apina]

Just a random coincidence.

In the old town centre of Modena (Emilia, Italy), streets are also called rua.

Which is not any more meaningfull than the calle of Venice.

http://www.comune.modena.it/multimediamo/prodotti-multimediali/foto/2011/rua-freda/rua-freda/image_preview
Maybe... though I found some articles (I do not know how reliable they are) that do say it is due to French (Provençal) influence:

Other languages that have influenced Portuguese include French, due to the infiltration of French manners and customs in Portugal during the tenth and eleventh centuries, when Frenchmen went to Portugal as pilgrims, courtiers, statesmen, scholars, and soldiers of fortune to help fight the Moors. There were also influences of Provençal, a language from the south of France, with words such as rua ("street"), similar to the French rue.
http://www.golisbon.com/practical-lisbon/language.html


Provençal, a language from the south of France, also influenced Portuguese. It did this with words such as rua (“street”), comparable to the French word rue.
http://www.bbportuguese.com/influence-of-the-portuguese-language.html

Who knows? :confused2:

[Ouistreham]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ke8loeb1Jc

this one's even better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oZh9...feature=relmfu

I always thought it sounded somewhat similar to french, but is there something to confirm this?

Well... It sounds like anything but French.

(I don't want to be abusive, but...) it rather reminds Polish with a definite Semitic flavour. A bit like Russian Hebrew.


Probably because of the French settlers:

"The impact of this early diversity, especially Flemish (in Faial) and French Breton (in São Miguel), can still be seen and heard among many Azorean descendants today."

"The French presence, by contrast, is much less documented, but many historians and linguists agree that some early settlers came from Brittany and they point to an area known as Bretanha in northwestern São Miguel as evidence (Chapin 1989). In addition, the very distinctive ―French sounding‖ vowels (i.e. ―ü‖ vs. ―ooh‖ and ―euh‖ vs. ―oye‖) – which characterize the variety of Portuguese spoken on the island (known as Micaelense) – are believed to have been influenced by a francophone presence.9"

https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bitstream/1807/30088/12/daSilva_Emanuel_A_201111_PhD_thesis.pdf

This is absolutely crazy!...

A language's phonology is a closed autonomous system. Mutual influences can exist only in some definite situations:

. When a minority language has been dominated by another for centuries: Scottish Gaelic sounds like Scottish English, Spanish Catalan like Spanish, Breton like French, Dutch Frisian like Dutch (but German Frisian like German!) etc.

. Along linguistic borders (but not always). In Switzerland, in towns like Bienne or Fribourg, French- and German-speakers tend to develop vaguely similar intonations. Same phenomenon in Lorraine, Luxembourg or Brussels.

On the other hand, Canadian French is still largely immune to English influences (except in some local communities that are on their way to final assimilation).

[Sikeliot]

It is. That's why it tends to sound strange even to the other islanders.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ke8loeb1Jc

this one's even better, it's really difficult to understand him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oZh9ibe-qg&feature=relmfu

It sounds more like Polish or Czech than like French.

[Ouistreham]

If anything, all Western Romance languages but for Aragonese have been influenced by Celtic.

This is strange.

Northern Aragon is the only place in Spain (with the Aran Valley of course) where a Celtic legacy can be detected in popular culture.

Vernacular architecture in a city like Bielsa is strikingly reminiscent of Central France, Brittany or Scotland:

http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/7093893.jpg

http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/4827436.jpg


If anything, all Western Romance languages but for Aragonese have been influenced by Celtic. That is, Portuguese, Galician, Asturian, Spanish, Catalan, Gascon-Occitan, the French-Oilitan languages, Arpitan and the Rhaeto-Padanian languages.

There are indeed similarities between Romance and Celtic (but also Germanic) languages, as for vocabulary and syntactical structures, that make them very different from Latin. IMHO the influences must be traced back to the time of formation of Proto-Romance. Which could be the reason why all Western Romance languages and dialects share a common stock of Celtic (cambiare, battere etc.) and Germanic (guerra, blanco etc.) words, even those that never had any contact with Germanic or Celtic tribes.

[Atlantic Islander]

Well... It sounds like anything but French.

(I don't want to be abusive, but...) it rather reminds Polish with a definite Semitic flavour. A bit like Russian Hebrew.



This is absolutely crazy!...

A language's phonology is a closed autonomous system. Mutual influences can exist only in some definite situations:

. When a minority language has been dominated by another for centuries: Scottish Gaelic sounds like Scottish English, Spanish Catalan like Spanish, Breton like French, Dutch Frisian like Dutch (but German Frisian like German!) etc.

. Along linguistic borders (but not always). In Switzerland, in towns like Bienne or Fribourg, French- and German-speakers tend to develop vaguely similar intonations. Same phenomenon in Lorraine, Luxembourg or Brussels.

On the other hand, Canadian French is still largely immune to English influences (except in some local communities that are on their way to final assimilation).

I didn't say it sounded just like French, just that it's French influenced. And it's not like it sounds terrible, it's just difficult to understand.

[Catrau]

No. I can't figure out how French could have any influence on Portuguese. Portugal and core France (i.e. the North) are worlds apart.

....

But this is just a random encounter, which doesn't imply any parentage in any way.

Sometimes we encounter shocking realities:

- The father of our first king (count Henry) was a French knight from Dijon (Burgundy) he was grandson of the king of France and a relative of Hugo de Cluny;

- Apparently he was enrolled by the Templars to start a new nation while fighting the moors in Europe;

- To succeed he had to help one of the Iberian kings and hope lands would be given to him. Leon was the logical choice because of the border with the Atlantic which means one less enemy to fight later;

- When Afonso Henriques succeeded in the succession from Leon he called to the new nation all sorts of French from knights (Templars) to monks to help in the fight against the bloody Saracens and to effectively build the nation (agriculture, law, engineering) they planted vast extensions of fruit trees brought agriculture to savage lands, build bridges and roads, build the most exquisite Romanic monasteries (the ones that would be burned, assaulted and destroyed by another set of French some 700 years later). Other people came, especially English and Flemish but the French were the more important in numbers and in knowhow.

- Most of the people that could write during those days were French and although only some 200 years after that the Portuguese became the official language, it all started in the this early days of Saracen submission.

See, after all, our tortuous grammar may have come from somewhere, is Burgundy enough North? Your “worlds apart” may have been much more close than you ever imagined and in this matters there are no such things as random encounters especially in a place (Europe) where people always had enough mobility, that aren’t that far away apart to walk as they used to do, let alone ride.
In those days France and it’s central position in Europe played a very important role in other nations especially among some of her southern relatives, we may like that or not but it is undeniable.

It’s very curious how the Spaniards have a language so close to Portuguese and they got the easiest grammar, they only lose to English. No king of France grandson or Templar ideologist ever ruled there.

[Ouistreham]

Oh my God... I had heard that such demented beliefs enjoyed some popularity in Portugal but I didn't know it was that bad.


our tortuous grammar may have come from somewhere

French and Portuguese grammars have intricacies that do not exist in other Romance languages, but they happen not to be the same ones. E.g. French makes an abnormally sparse use of subjunctive whereas Portuguese uses it overabundantly in very original ways (even for infinitives).


It’s very curious how the Spaniards have a language so close to Portuguese and they got the easiest grammar, they only lose to English. No king of France grandson or Templar ideologist ever ruled there.

And?
Dutch is so close to German that it is actually a regional dialect of it. But German has a notoriously complicated grammar while the Dutch one is way simpler than the Spanish one.


The father of our first king (count Henry) was a French knight from Dijon (Burgundy) he was grandson of the king of France and a relative of Hugo de Cluny;

- Apparently he was enrolled by the Templars to start a new nation while fighting the moors in Europe;

- To succeed he had to help one of the Iberian kings and hope lands would be given to him. Leon was the logical choice because of the border with the Atlantic which means one less enemy to fight later;

- When Afonso Henriques succeeded in the succession from Leon he called to the new nation all sorts of French from knights (Templars) to monks to help etc...

But seriously... Do you think this is enough to affect a language's grammar and phonetics? England has been ruled for centuries by French speaking Normans, London was at some time the most creative centre of early French litterature, English was flooded with words and calques of French origin, but what was the effect on the English grammar and phonetics? Virtually zero!

I'm afraid you are crediting French with awesome remote control capabilities of foreign languages. Very flattering! But too good to be true.

[Comte Arnau]

Just a few vocabulary examples that I remember (Portuguese, French, Spanish respettively):
chapéu - chapeau - sombrero?
rua - rue - calle?
greve - greve - huelga?

and there are many others (where Spanish seems the isolate in comparison with French and Portuguese)

In Spanish the word rúa exists, although its use is very reduced. In old Catalan rua (or ruha) also existed, but we say carrer, like carrièra in Occitan or carrera in Aragonese. The word via exists in Iberia too for wide roads. But no strada.

Chapéu in Portuguese has to be a word taken from French, otherwise that initial ch doesn't make sense, it should be capelo/capel/capéu. In Catalan we have capell, although the most common word for a hat is barret, capell being mainly used in Mallorca now. In Italian they have cappello.

When the words come from Latin, they usually exist in all Romance languages but with different usage, register or meaning.

I'm sure greve in Portuguese has to be taken from French too. The Basques also took it from French and call it greba. In Catalan we call it vaga.



A language's phonology is a closed autonomous system. Mutual influences can exist only in some definite situations:

. When a minority language has been dominated by another for centuries: Scottish Gaelic sounds like Scottish English, Spanish Catalan like Spanish, Breton like French, Dutch Frisian like Dutch (but German Frisian like German!) etc.


"Spanish" Catalan sounds like Spanish... when spoken by the 3 to 4 millions of speakers who have it as a second language.



It’s very curious how the Spaniards have a language so close to Portuguese and they got the easiest grammar, they only lose to English.

Spanish has an easier phonology (and, arguably, spelling) than the rest of Romance languages. But I don't see in what Spanish grammar can be considered easier than that of other Romance languages, tbh.

[Damião de Góis]

In Spanish the word rúa exists, although its use is very reduced. In old Catalan rua (or ruha) also existed, but we say carrer, like carrièra in Occitan or carrera in Aragonese. The word via exists in Iberia too for wide roads. But no strada.


Estrada? That's how we say "road". I thought it was the same in spanish?

rua = street
estrada = road

[Catrau]

Oh my God... I had heard that such demented beliefs enjoyed some popularity in Portugal but I didn't know it was that bad.

I'm afraid you are crediting French with awesome remote control capabilities of foreign languages. Very flattering! But too good to be true.

I do not pretend to speculate about this issue, in fact I couldn't do it even if I wanted to, my world runs far away from the study of languages. This is just my opinion, I'm not dement, and it's not just my opinion it is also the opinion expressed in a few books I've read and which references I can send you if you want to judge the authors demency. I know this is not the mainstream but makes sense and the pieces join well together. France did had a huge impact in the formation of the kingdom of Portugal, in those days, the people that wrote the first writings in Portuguese were French. My feelings for that are none, I don't care if they had impact or not.
You should not compare things that aren’t comparable: England is England and Portugal is different. The Norman conquest of Britain although contemporary of the formation of Portugal was a completely different story. England was already there while Portugal wasn’t more than a project, there wasn’t a holy war going on at English doorsteps and English people aren’t Portuguese.
You may be right, that may had nothing to do with the way we spell Portuguese but there are people that think otherwise and also think that all those examples aren’t just random encounters. It’s common understanding that Portuguese has not only closely related words to French that doesn’t appear in Spanish but there’s a whole different dimension, when I had to present work in Spain, Spaniards usually had trouble to follow me because although I was speaking Castilian I was thinking in Portuguese and Spaniards often told me I was expressing myself as a French… I can’t really explain that to you. You need to ask them why but apparently it had precisely to do with the phrase construction…

[Comte Arnau]

Estrada? That's how we say "road". I thought it was the same in spanish?

rua = street
estrada = road

I really don't know why I wrote estrada, it's not the word I was thinking about. Yes, of course, estrada exists in Portuguese and, although with a different use and frequency, in Spanish and Catalan too. (The word commonly used here with the sense of estrada in Portuguese is carretera)

Fuck, as soon as I remember the word I was thinking about I'll edit it. :p

[Damião de Góis]

I really don't know why I wrote estrada, it's not the word I was thinking about. Yes, of course, estrada exists in Portuguese and, although with a different use and frequency, in Spanish and Catalan too. (The word commonly used here with the sense of estrada in Portuguese is carretera)

Fuck, as soon as I remember the word I was thinking about I'll edit it. :p

I don't know what you are thinking about, but here are similar words:

estrada
caminho
trilho
rua

(less used)
via

[Comte Arnau]

Didn't know about trilho. Interesting.

[Catrau]

I don't know what you are thinking about, but here are similar words:

estrada
caminho
trilho
rua

(less used)
via

Carreiro

[Rouxinol]

O estudo da língua e das suas origens está diametralmente oposto à minha formação... Contudo, não encontro lá muita lógica em admitir que a nossa gramática, dita complicada (em comparação à espanhola, por exemplo) se deva a qualquer influência francesa. Horror. Lá por D. Henrique ser borgonhês a língua falada pela população local foi aquela que evoluiu para o Português, julgo eu. Por exemplo, apesar do francês ter sido falado durante séculos pela aristocracia inglesa, nem por isso o inglês foi influenciado gramaticalmente, foneticamente e por aí fora pelo francês - que era a língua falada e escrita pela elite reinante. Não terá sido o castelhano que se simplificou face ao galaico-português? Enfim, estou a atirar postas de pescada para o ar. De qualquer modo, essa teoria "francesa" não parece ter muitos adeptos - ou mesmo nenhuns, ao nível académico? - entre os linguistas, pelo menos foi aqui a primeira vez que li sobre isso quando aplicado ao português do continente. No máximo, o que já tinha ouvido/lido foi que o sotaque açoriano teria sido influenciado por franceses que se teriam estabelecido ali - e honestamente há aspectos fonéticos que me fazem lembrar o francês - qual polaco ou hebreu (mirabolante, e historicamente não faz sequer sentido).

[Falkata]

Estrada? That's how we say "road". I thought it was the same in spanish?

rua = street
estrada = road


Both words are commonly used in Galician but not in Spanish

In Spanish rua would be "calle" and estrada "carretera"

[Comte Arnau]

O estudo da língua e das suas origens está diametralmente oposto à minha formação... Contudo, não encontro lá muita lógica em admitir que a nossa gramática, dita complicada (em comparação à espanhola, por exemplo) se deva a qualquer influência francesa. Horror. Lá por D. Henrique ser borgonhês a língua falada pela população local foi aquela que evoluiu para o Português, julgo eu. Por exemplo, apesar do francês ter sido falado durante séculos pela aristocracia inglesa, nem por isso o inglês foi influenciado gramaticalmente, foneticamente e por aí fora pelo francês - que era a língua falada e escrita pela elite reinante.

The influence of French (and/or Norman) on English has been remarkable, specially on the vocabulary, but there have also been quite a few phonetic and morphosyntactic changes, as well as in the wording of certain phrases, that are more obvious in English because of it being a Germanic language. The influence of French on Iberia, while still big at some periods, can't really be compared. I consider the "guttural r case" in Portugal, if as a result of imitation from the French-speaking upper class in 19th-century Lisbon, to be an interesting but rather anecdotical phenomenon of phonetic change.


Não terá sido o castelhano que se simplificou face ao galaico-português? Enfim, estou a atirar postas de pescada para o ar.

As I said, I fail to see why the Spanish grammar is seen as easier than the one of the rest of Romance languages. I see how it is easier in its phonology and consequently spelling, despite preserving etymological h's that are not written, for instance, in Italian or Occitan. But grammatically, in what? :confused:


Both words are commonly used in Galician but not in Spanish

In Spanish rua would be "calle" and estrada "carretera"

Yet the fact that the common words are calle and carretera doesn't mean that rúa and estrada don't exist in Spanish. This comes to prove how languages which were once close diverge.

It's as if words followed a specialization depending on the area.

Latin:

VIA 'way' gives via in all Romance languages (voie in French). It is more commonly used with the sense of street in the Italian peninsula.

Via STRATA 'paved way' gives estrada/(e)strata in all Romance languages (estrée in French got lost, though). Now it means 'street' in Italian and Romanian, and 'road' in Portuguese-Galician. The Germanics stole this word from us and so they also have strasses and streets. :)
Via CARRARIA 'way for chariots' gave Occitan carrièra, Aragonese carrera and Catalan carrer, the common word for 'street' in these languages. Carrela in Sardinian has a close meaning, while Romanian cărare is a path. Old French had charrière. Spanish carrera and Portuguese carreira have acquired the meaning of 'race'. In all Romance languages, it also adopted the meaning of an 'educational path', that is, a career. A little chariot in Catalan is carret(a), from which carretera, originally 'path for chariots' and now the common word for 'road' in both Catalan and Spanish.
Via RUPTA 'broken/open way' gave route in French, where it means 'road'. Apparently all other Romance languages (and English) took ruta from French, with the sense of 'route'.
RUGA 'wrinkle' came to mean, metaphorically, a path bordered by houses in Medieval Latin. From it, rua in the Romance languages, but more particularly in French rue and Galician-Portuguese rua, their words for 'street'.
CALLIS 'path' gave the word calle, used commonly in Spanish, Asturian (caye) and Venetian for 'street'. Portuguese calhe, Italian calle and Catalan call are rare/poetic words for a narrow way, with the particular use of it in Catalan for the medieval Jewish districts. Cale also exists in Romanian with the sense of path. In Basque, kale 'street' is a Latinism.
CAMMINUS is a word that Latin took from the Celts. But this is the common word for a way or path in most Romance languages: Portuguese caminho, Spanish camino, Catalan camí, French chemin, Italian cammino, Sardinian caminu... Romanians seem to prefer drum, a Slavic word.
SEMITA 'path' gave literary words in most Romance languages: senda, sendero, senderol, sentier, sentiero...

[Rouxinol]

The influence of French (and/or Norman) on English has been remarkable, specially on the vocabulary, but there have also been quite a few phonetic and morphosyntactic changes, as well as in the wording of certain phrases, that are more obvious in English because of it being a Germanic language. The influence of French on Iberia, while still big at some periods, can't really be compared. I consider the "guttural r case" in Portugal, if as a result of imitation from the French-speaking upper class in 19th-century Lisbon, to be an interesting but rather anecdotical phenomenon of phonetic change.

Yes, certainly it did influence the English vocabulary, but not so much the rest (grammar, phonetics). If anything, I think that French might have had influence on the Portuguese vocabulary due to its "chic" status among the Portuguese elites/upper classes in the 18th and 19th centuries, so that some new words have been loaned to the lexicon (e.g., chofer, chalé, bidé, abajur, edredão, etc.). I don't see how, for instance, it would have any significant influence over the phonetics, considering that it was spoken only by a minority consisting of aristocrats, upper classes and intellectuals and means of "diffusion" of that possible influence did not exist back then (e.g., radio or television).


As I said, I fail to see why the Spanish grammar is seen as easier than the one of the rest of Romance languages. I see how it is easier in its phonology and consequently spelling, despite preserving etymological h's that are not written, for instance, in Italian or Occitan. But grammatically, in what? :confused:

Honestly, neither do I. It's just what I've come to know from reading about it and I've never learned any Spanish so I could tell from experience.


Yet the fact that the common words are calle and carretera doesn't mean that rúa and estrada don't exist in Spanish. This comes to prove how languages which were once close diverge.

The Spanish CALLE has its match CALHE in Portuguese, though CALHE is never used to mean rua, as far as I know.

calhe
s. f.
1. Rua estreita.
2. Congosta.
3. Carreiro.
4. Vereda.
5. Calha.
6. [Portugal: Trás-os-Montes] Cale de madeira, que, na azenha, leva a água às penas do rodízio.

[Ouistreham]

In French, estrée (North) has been lost, as well as charrière and carrière (except in the metaphorical sense of 'carrière professionnelle'), having been replaced by chaussée (a paved road made of stones held together by lime mortar, chaux, hence Eng. causeway).

In the South of France the related word caussade is found in placenames. Did it ever made it in Catalan and further West?

Another interesting word is draille, used in the mountains of Southern France for "cattle drive", "vìa pecuaria", related to Lat. trahere and Eng. trail. Any possible relationship to Port. trilho?

[Apina]

The influence of French (and/or Norman) on English has been remarkable, specially on the vocabulary, but there have also been quite a few phonetic and morphosyntactic changes, as well as in the wording of certain phrases, that are more obvious in English because of it being a Germanic language. The influence of French on Iberia, while still big at some periods, can't really be compared. I consider the "guttural r case" in Portugal, if as a result of imitation from the French-speaking upper class in 19th-century Lisbon, to be an interesting but rather anecdotical phenomenon of phonetic change.



As I said, I fail to see why the Spanish grammar is seen as easier than the one of the rest of Romance languages. I see how it is easier in its phonology and consequently spelling, despite preserving etymological h's that are not written, for instance, in Italian or Occitan. But grammatically, in what? :confused:



Yet the fact that the common words are calle and carretera doesn't mean that rúa and estrada don't exist in Spanish. This comes to prove how languages which were once close diverge.

It's as if words followed a specialization depending on the area.

Latin:

VIA 'way' gives via in all Romance languages (voie in French). It is more commonly used with the sense of street in the Italian peninsula.

Via STRATA 'paved way' gives estrada/(e)strata in all Romance languages (estrée in French got lost, though). Now it means 'street' in Italian and Romanian, and 'road' in Portuguese-Galician. The Germanics stole this word from us and so they also have strasses and streets. :)
Via CARRARIA 'way for chariots' gave Occitan carrièra, Aragonese carrera and Catalan carrer, the common word for 'street' in these languages. Carrela in Sardinian has a close meaning, while Romanian cărare is a path. Old French had charrière. Spanish carrera and Portuguese carreira have acquired the meaning of 'race'. In all Romance languages, it also adopted the meaning of an 'educational path', that is, a career. A little chariot in Catalan is carret(a), from which carretera, originally 'path for chariots' and now the common word for 'road' in both Catalan and Spanish.
Via RUPTA 'broken/open way' gave route in French, where it means 'road'. Apparently all other Romance languages (and English) took ruta from French, with the sense of 'route'.
RUGA 'wrinkle' came to mean, metaphorically, a path bordered by houses in Medieval Latin. From it, rua in the Romance languages, but more particularly in French rue and Galician-Portuguese rua, their words for 'street'.
CALLIS 'path' gave the word calle, used commonly in Spanish, Asturian (caye) and Venetian for 'street'. Portuguese calhe, Italian calle and Catalan call are rare/poetic words for a narrow way, with the particular use of it in Catalan for the medieval Jewish districts. Cale also exists in Romanian with the sense of path. In Basque, kale 'street' is a Latinism.
CAMMINUS is a word that Latin took from the Celts. But this is the common word for a way or path in most Romance languages: Portuguese caminho, Spanish camino, Catalan camí, French chemin, Italian cammino, Sardinian caminu... Romanians seem to prefer drum, a Slavic word.
SEMITA 'path' gave literary words in most Romance languages: senda, sendero, senderol, sentier, sentiero...

Eu concordo. Só ler um pouco de portugues 'básico', a influencia francesa é clara. Palavras tais como "aniversário" (em vez de 'cumpleanos' em espanhol) - embora se pudesse argumentar que este exemplo nao é influenciado pelo frances - a palavra catala é aniversari). Outras palavras como 'garçom' sao indubitavelmente de origem francesa. Outras das que me lembro sao 'vinho rosé' em vez de 'vinho rosado' (do espanhol). Mas penso também que a influencia francesa é as vezes um pouco exagerada. Por exemplo, pensar que a ortografia (especialmente quanto aos verbos em portugues) se deve muito ao frances é errado. E.g. o verbo frances 'faire' nao influenciou 'fazer' em portugues (o espanhol 'hacer'), e o mesmo com palavras como 'o ferro' e 'le fer' (esp: hierro). Esta mudanca do 'h' em epsanhol a 'f' em portugues nao se relaciona de forma nenhuma com a influencia francesa. Outras línguas romances retiveram o 'f' e.g. o italiano, o catalao, o galego etc. (parece-me que só o castalhano experimentou aquela mudanca linguistica). Esta mudanca ocorre também com palavras de origem 'ibérica' (ou árabe): e.g. almohada >> almofada etc.

Portanto, eu creio que a influencia francesa que teve lugar na língua portuguesa, afectou primariamente o vocabulário 'sofisticada' digamos (particularmente o vocabulário relacionado com a cozinha, os costumes e 'modo de vida').

Quanto a' influencia do frances na língua inglesa (que creio foi muito mais profunda em termos de vocabulário), acho este artigo interessante.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/Origins_of_English_PieChart_2D.svg/250px-Origins_of_English_PieChart_2D.svg.png

Depois de ver isto, é curioso que o ingles ainda se considere um idioma germanico - mais de 50% das palavras sao d'origem latina (inclusive o frances), embora a maioria das mais usadas sejam d'origem alema.



Langue d'oïl, including French and Old Norman: 28.3%
Latin, including modern scientific and technical Latin: 28.24%
Germanic languages (including words directly inherited from Old English; does not include Germanic words coming from the Germanic element in French, Latin or other Romance languages): 25%
Greek: 5.32%
No etymology given: 4.03%
Derived from proper names: 3.28%
All other languages: less than 1%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language#Word_origins

[Albion]

Depois de ver isto, é curioso que o ingles ainda se considere um idioma germanico - mais de 50% das palavras sao d'origem latina (inclusive o frances), embora a maioria das mais usadas sejam d'origem alema.

English has ~1 million words in total. How many are used regularly? A few thousand and a few thousand more not so often.
How many of those words are obscure and barely used? Perhaps 70% of the language.
What are the most common words in English? Mainly Germanic and some French.
What will the obscure words be? Mainly Greek, Latin and a few French words.

If we cut English down to commonly used words then it'd be more like 50% Germanic, 35% French and 15% Latin in my opinion.


English has so many words because our writers sort of went mad from the Middle Ages right through to the present day. English adopts many new and useless words every year and makes new ones up.

[Apina]

English has ~1 million words in total. How many are used regularly? A few thousand and a few thousand more not so often.
How many of those words are obscure and barely used? Perhaps 70% of the language.
What are the most common words in English? Mainly Germanic and some French.
What will the obscure words be? Mainly Greek, Latin and a few French words.

If we cut English down to commonly used words then it'd be more like 50% Germanic, 35% French and 15% Latin in my opinion.


English has so many words because our writers sort of went mad from the Middle Ages right through to the present day. English adopts many new and useless words every year and makes new ones up.
Yes you are right in this respect.
According to the link I posted:

The majority (estimates range from roughly 50%[84] to more than 80%[85]) of the thousand most common English words are Germanic. However, the majority of more advanced words in subjects such as the sciences, philosophy and mathematics come from Latin or Greek, with Arabic also providing many words in astronomy, mathematics, and chemistry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language#Word_origins
(there is also a table below showing the percentages of the most common 100 words, 1000 words etc and their origins)

[Guapo]

Why was he banned?

[Vasconcelos]

Repeatedly insulting and being rude to people. Apparently he was also not who he supposed to be.

[Mordid]

lol

[Guapo]

Repeatedly insulting and being rude to people. Apparently he was also not who he supposed to be.

Who are you? The cyber police? :D

[Vasconcelos]

You can call me RoboCop.

[Guapo]

You can call me RoboCop.

Lol, you can call me Celtiberi.

[Comte Arnau]

In French, estrée (North) has been lost, as well as charrière and carrière (except in the metaphorical sense of 'carrière professionnelle'), having been replaced by chaussée (a paved road made of stones held together by lime mortar, chaux, hence Eng. causeway).

In the South of France the related word caussade is found in placenames. Did it ever made it in Catalan and further West?

Yes. It's calçada in Catalan and Portuguese, and calzada in Spanish.


Another interesting word is draille, used in the mountains of Southern France for "cattle drive", "vìa pecuaria", related to Lat. trahere and Eng. trail. Any possible relationship to Port. trilho?

Interesting. But no relationship. Trilho comes from the verb for 'to thresh', trilhar in Portuguese, trillar in the rest of Iberia, which come from Latin tribulare.


Eu concordo. Só ler um pouco de portugues 'básico', a influencia francesa é clara. Palavras tais como "aniversário" (em vez de 'cumpleanos' em espanhol) - embora se pudesse argumentar que este exemplo nao é influenciado pelo frances - a palavra catala é aniversari). Outras palavras como 'garçom' sao indubitavelmente de origem francesa. Outras das que me lembro sao 'vinho rosé' em vez de 'vinho rosado' (do espanhol). Mas penso também que a influencia francesa é as vezes um pouco exagerada. Por exemplo, pensar que a ortografia (especialmente quanto aos verbos em portugues) se deve muito ao frances é errado. E.g. o verbo frances 'faire' nao influenciou 'fazer' em portugues (o espanhol 'hacer'), e o mesmo com palavras como 'o ferro' e 'le fer' (esp: hierro). Esta mudanca do 'h' em epsanhol a 'f' em portugues nao se relaciona de forma nenhuma com a influencia francesa. Outras línguas romances retiveram o 'f' e.g. o italiano, o catalao, o galego etc. (parece-me que só o castalhano experimentou aquela mudanca linguistica).

Yes, I'd say it's been very exaggerated. :D

F is retained in all Romance languages but two, Spanish and Gascon. Precisely those two born on a place inhabited by Basques, who have never liked initial f's in their language. ;)

[HispaniaSagrada]

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