The problem with Greece

[Lena]

How come Albanians don't have serious issues with Greece? Because we're both ancient peoples and the whole controversy is "some village here and some village there"

Nai, nai, panta exeis dikio, paidi mou LOL!

VTXl-A2HFZo

[Romanion]

The 1990s were more then enough to sicken most (if not all) of Europe to it's stomach and we can do without so keep up the good work and stop murdering each other.

Wow, such hypocricy, trying to make western Europe look like such a civilized place even though for hundreds of years untill the WW2 you guys were slaughtering each other constantly. Atlantic slave trade? western europe. Colonization? western europe. Holocaust? western (central?) Europe. WW1 slaughter, all fo Northern Europe. Religious wars? Northern europe.

[The Lawspeaker]

Wow, such hypocricy, trying to make western Europe look like such a civilized place even though for hundreds of years untill the WW2 you guys were slaughtering each other constantly. Atlantic slave trade? western europe. Colonization? western europe. Holocaust? western (central?) Europe. WW1 slaughter, all fo Northern Europe. Religious wars? Northern europe.
And did we learn our lesson or not ? :rolleyes2: It took us two bloody world wars and countless deaths to shape up. Yes - we are better because we learned our lesson.

Besides repeat after me: thank you, Netherlands, thank you, Germany. We paid for your breakfast today.

[Minesweeper]

It is an ''ancient style'', to kidnap and execute, those civilized proto-Europeans have been doing it in Kosovo too. A relative of mine, worked in Thermal power station, kidnaped in June '98 and still missing, but who carres, he was an invader and probably a DB agent.

And those civilized proto-European wonder why are we accusing them for this crime? :coffee:

[Romanion]

And did we learn our lesson or not ? :rolleyes2: It took us two bloody world wars and countless deaths to shape up. Yes - we are better because we learned our lesson.

Besides repeat after me: thank you, Netherlands, thank you, Germany. We paid for your breakfast today.

Western Europe has more blood on its hands than any balkan state. Grow up, I paid for my own breakfast. If FYR of Macedonia wants to protect its territorial integrity, it has every right to do so.

[The Lawspeaker]

Western Europe has more blood on its hands than any balkan state. Grow up, I paid for my own breakfast. If FYR of Macedonia wants to protect its territorial integrity, it has every right to do so.
You didn't pay for your breakfast. We did. My flatties and I have the blue receipt (http://asten.allesvan.nl/uploads/8/images/belastingenvelop_allesvanasten_550.JPG) right here on the desk. Say: thank you.

And yes: we have blood on our hands. But unlike you people down there we have learned from it and unlike you people we don't buy tanks (http://www.defencegreece.com/index.php/2011/10/the-u-s-approved-to-grant-400-m1a1-abrams-to-greece/) from the money that was donated to us by the rest of Europe from the kindness of their hearts. :coffee:

[Romanion]

[QUOTE]You didn't pay for your breakfast. We did. My flatties and I have the blue receipt right here on the desk. Say: thank you.

No, I worked for my money and paid for it. How come moronic people like you become moderators? Loki needs to look into you.


And yes: we have blood on our hands. But unlike you people down there we have learned from it. :coffee:

Your ignorance is showing again. Balkans were peaceful until the 90's when America promoted the disintigration of Yugoslavia. America promoted the Illegal breakaway of Kosovo aswell, and now the albanians think they can do the same in FYR of Macedonia.

[jerney]

You didn't pay for your breakfast. We did. My flatties and I have the blue receipt (http://asten.allesvan.nl/uploads/8/images/belastingenvelop_allesvanasten_550.JPG) right here on the desk. Say: thank you.

You paid for his breakfast? :lol: With the amount of time you spend online and on these forums I really doubt it's possible that you even have a job.

[Romanion]

[QUOTE]from it and unlike you people we don't buy tanks (http://www.defencegreece.com/index.php/2011/10/the-u-s-approved-to-grant-400-m1a1-abrams-to-greece/) from the money that was donated to us by the rest of Europe from the kindness of their hearts. :coffee:[/

Read the atricle and say we bought the tanks again, how are dumb people like you moderators on this forum?

[The Lawspeaker]

No, I worked for my money and paid for it. How come moronic people like you become moderators? Loki needs to look into you.
Does it hurt knowing you that people don't take kindly to you being arrogant while bankrolling most of Europe ? You didn't pay for it. We paid for your job too. Say thank you.




Your ignorance is showing again. Balkans were peaceful until the 90's when America promoted the disintigration of Yugoslavia. America promoted the Illegal breakaway of Kosovo aswell, and now the albanians think they can do the same in FYR of Macedonia.
The Balkans has never ever been peaceful. It was peaceful for a little while when Yugoslavia was there but that didn't cover Greece. Remember the Greek Civil War, 1967, Cyprus, your little show-down with Turkey etc. etc. etc. ?

[The Lawspeaker]

You paid for his breakfast? :lol: With the amount of time you spend online and on these forums I really doubt it's possible that you even have a job.
Do you know how many taxes we pay here ? Even when buying something small. The Dutch nation and Germany paid for him. And we continue to pay for him at the expense of our own people. I personally think that we would be much better off leaving the Eurozone or throwing out Greece. Making the sum equal again by, if necessary, selling to the Turks. Whichever works best. They made their debts and now they will have to pay for it.

[The Lawspeaker]

Another such article (http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/10682305/__Griekenland_koopt_tanks__.html). 400 American tanks. Price: unknown. Each tank would cost 3.2 million euro's.

[Romanion]

Does it hurt knowing you that people don't take kindly to you being arrogant while bankrolling most of Europe ? You didn't pay for it. We paid for your job too. Say thank you.



The Balkans has never ever been peaceful. It was peaceful for a little while when Yugoslavia was there but that didn't cover Greece. Remember the Greek Civil War, 1967, Cyprus, your little show-down with Turkey etc. etc. etc. ?

Is everything you say moronic? or are you really this dumb.?

[Romanion]

Another such article (http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/10682305/__Griekenland_koopt_tanks__.html). 400 American tanks. Price: unknown. Each tank would cost 3.2 million euro's.

They were donated to Greece By America, meaning they were free.

[The Lawspeaker]

They were donated to Greece By America, meaning they were free.
It bought them. It actually made international headlines and America never donates anything. We paid for your tanks as well. Thank you. :thumb001:

[jerney]

Do you know how many taxes we pay here ? Even when buying something small. The Dutch nation and Germany paid for him. And we continue to pay for him at the expense of our own people. I personally think that we would be much better off leaving the Eurozone or throwing out Greece. Making the sum equal again by, if necessary, selling to the Turks. Whichever works best. They made their debts and now they will have to pay for it.

If you do not have a job (which I definitely believe to be the case), then you paid for nothing my friend.

And if you want to make this a competition, then guess you'll be sad to hear that the VAT in most of Greece is now 23%.

[Romanion]

It bought them. It actually made international headlines and America never donates anything. We paid for your tanks as well. Thank you. :thumb001:

http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2012/04/04/usa-grants-military-aid-to-greece-400-abrams-m1a1/

Greece Defense Minister Dimitris Avramopoulos stoke a deal with his American counterpart, U.S. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta: USA will grant to Greece 400 used Abrams M1A1 tanks and tracked vehicles including 700 personnel carrier type M113. The army material will come from the stocks of the U.S. Army and it will be donated to Greece in the context of US Army reorganization.

Daily Proto Thema noted that this grant is politically and diplomatically understood as compensatory benefits to Greece for the assistance offered by the debt-ridden country in the case of Libya and the protection of sea routes and international navigation from the dangers of Somali pirates.

Daily Kathimerini quoted Avramopoulos’ aides saying that the obstacles concerning the transport of the tanks has been solved, private donors will come up for the costs so that the Greek budget won’t be burdened.

PS It’s so good to have such friends and donors


How are dumb people like you moderators?

[Europa]

And what exactly the last 10-15 posts have to do with the subject?:coffee:

[The Lawspeaker]

We pay VAT here, furthermore excises, our healthcare had already been privatised but they are driving up the own risk as well (some say it will be 700 euro's soon) In the meanwhile we had to bail out Greece so we put ourselves for billions more in the red and because of that this country is still the only one that is in a recession. Thanks to us helping Greece.


http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2012/04/04/usa-grants-military-aid-to-greece-400-abrams-m1a1/

Greece Defense Minister Dimitris Avramopoulos stoke a deal with his American counterpart, U.S. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta: USA will grant to Greece 400 used Abrams M1A1 tanks and tracked vehicles including 700 personnel carrier type M113. The army material will come from the stocks of the U.S. Army and it will be donated to Greece in the context of US Army reorganization.

Daily Proto Thema noted that this grant is politically and diplomatically understood as compensatory benefits to Greece for the assistance offered by the debt-ridden country in the case of Libya and the protection of sea routes and international navigation from the dangers of Somali pirates.

Daily Kathimerini quoted Avramopoulos’ aides saying that the obstacles concerning the transport of the tanks has been solved, private donors will come up for the costs so that the Greek budget won’t be burdened.

PS It’s so good to have such friends and donors


How are dumb people like you moderators?
America doesn't donate. You will see the snake under the grass soon enough.

[jerney]

We pay VAT here, furthermore excises, our healthcare had already been privatised but they are driving up the own risk as well (some say it will be 700 euro's soon) In the meanwhile we had to bail out Greece so we put ourselves for billions more in the red and because of that this country is still the only one that is in a recession. Thanks to us helping Greece.

You pay less sales tax than what people pay in Greece, so stop whining about who has to pay more taxes like it's relevant to what I said.

Greece is the only country in Europe in recession? I wonder if you can function outside your own little universe :icon_ask:

[Romanion]

America doesn't donate. You will see the snake under the grass soon enough.

Next time you post something stupid, do proper research.

[The Lawspeaker]

You pay less sales tax than what people pay in Greece, so stop whining about who has to pay more taxes like it's relevant to what I said.

Greece is the only country in Europe in recession? :icon_ask:
No. That would be us (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/04/03/uk-dutch-economy-idUKBRE8320N520120403). Thank you, Greece. I wonder what the total value of the entire Greek economy really is and how much it would make us back if we would sell it to the highest bidder via marktplaats.nl. Of course: minus all the historic monuments because we should sell that to private owners in order to make back some money.

I wonder how much Turkey would be willing to pay ?

[Romanion]

No. That would be us (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/04/03/uk-dutch-economy-idUKBRE8320N520120403). Thank you, Greece. I wonder what the total value of the entire Greek economy really is and how much it would make us back if we would sell it to the highest bidder via marktplaats.nl. Of course: minus all the historic monuments because we should sell that to private owners in order to make back some money.

I wonder how much Turkey would be willing to pay ?

How are you a moderator?

[The Lawspeaker]

How are you a moderator?
Why are you a member ?

[jerney]

No. That would be us (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/04/03/uk-dutch-economy-idUKBRE8320N520120403). Thank you, Greece. I wonder what the total value of the entire Greek economy really is and how much it would make us back if we would sell it to the highest bidder via marktplaats.nl. Of course: minus all the historic monuments because we should sell that to private owners in order to make back some money.

I wonder how much Turkey would be willing to pay ?

:lol:

The historical monuments in Greece are worth more than your entire country x100.

If you want to complain about giving Greece money at least get a job first so you don't come of as totally insane

[Onur]

It bought them. It actually made international headlines and America never donates anything. We paid for your tanks as well. Thank you. :thumb001:
Belanda, the real question is why they are getting these 2nd hand used tanks and what are they going to do with those tanks? Try to invade Turkey again? lol?:p

[Romanion]

Why are you a member ?

To make good conversation, something you are unable to do. Loki made a mistake with you.

[The Lawspeaker]

:lol:

The historical monuments in Greece are worth more than your entire country x100.

They are only worth what people are willing to give for it. And since the locals themselves used them as quarries for most of their existence I guess their value has been somewhat diminished. Greece thinks too much of it's ancient civilisation to be honest particularly since it's modern version doesn't really live up to it (you can't live on past glories for ever).

[Romanion]

Belanda, the real question is why they are getting these 2nd hand used tanks and what are they going to do with those tanks? Try to invade Turkey again? lol?:p

Don't be scared, I won't hurt you.

[The Lawspeaker]

Don't be sacred, I won't hurt you.
I don't think the Turks would have to be afraid of the Greeks. Turkey isn't bankrupt, isn't relying on taking the bread out of Dutch and German mouths, isn't in almost constant revolution. I don't think Turkey even needs to call in art. 5. They will be in Athens in 48 hours.

[Europa]

How are you a moderator?


Indeed.Also Tuan,can you define 'moderator'?:coffee:

[jerney]

They are only worth what people are willing to give for it. And since the locals themselves used them as quarries for most of their existence I guess their value has been somewhat diminished. Greece thinks too much of it's ancient civilisation to be honest.

And you clearly think too highly of yourself. Tell me, how much did you pay in taxes last year?

[The Lawspeaker]

And you clearly think too highly of yourself. Tell me, how much did you pay in taxes last year?
I would come close to hundreds of Euro's. And that's not withstanding the rest that will be subtracted because of rising rents, rising healthcare costs (a visit to the dentist nowadays is close to 300 euro's) - getting my vaccinations was close to 300 as well so with our tax rate you can look it up for youself.

And Greeks don't pay taxes.. even if they say so on paper: they dodge them (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jan/24/greece-tax-dodging-crackdown).

[Romanion]

I don't think the Turks would have to be afraid of the Greeks. Turkey isn't bankrupt, isn't relying on taking the bread out of Dutch and German mouths, isn't in almost constant revolution. I don't think Turkey even needs to call in art. 5. They will be in Athens in 48 hours.

Yes, Italy thought the same thing in WW2. But this is off-topic and Loki needs to look into your moderator status because you Troll, are stupid, and make off-topic remarks.

[The Lawspeaker]

Yes, Italy thought the same thing in WW2. But this is off-topic and Loki needs to look into your moderator status because you Troll, are stupid, and make off-topic remarks.
I think it hurts you to see that not everyone supports your country into bankrolling all of us.

Greece is not the same as in WWII. It wasn't being bailed out by just about everyone and could count on the full support of the British Empire (ooh you forgot about that one: there were British troops in Greece !). This is not the case now. Greece has become widely unpopular in Europe (the very name has become synonymous with corruption, tax evasion, disorder, quick-to-riot and nepotism particularly in Germany and the Netherlands). So if Greece would for these tanks to attack Turkey.. then Greece would find out, to it's profound horror, that it will be facing the Turks on it's own with f.i France, Germany and the Netherlands quietly withdrawing every single last penny they have in Greece.

[Romanion]

And you clearly think too highly of yourself. Tell me, how much did you pay in taxes last year?

I think Taun is a dead beat loser in the Netherlands and blames Greeks on his current status.

[Romanion]

I think it hurts you to see that not everyone supports your country into bankrolling all of us.

Greece is not the same as in WWII. It wasn't being bailed out by just about everyone and could count on the full support of the British Empire (ooh you forgot about that one: there were British troops in Greece !). This is not the case now. Greece has become widely unpopular in Europe (the very name has become synonymous with corruption, tax evasion, disorder, quick-to-riot and nepotism particularly in Germany and the Netherlands). So if Greece would for these tanks to attack Turkey.. then Greece would find out, to it's profound horror, that it will be facing the Turks on it's own.

Answer me this one question, why are you so dumb? were you raised this way or do you like being so?

[The Lawspeaker]

I think Taun is a dead beat loser in the Netherlands and blames Greeks on his current status.
Awww. Are you hurt, little boy ? Because you know that your entire nation has disgraced Europe and there is nothing you can do about it ? :coffee:


Answer me this one question, why are you so dumb? were you raised this way or do you like being so?
Such a weak argument. Try again. You're no Socrates. That's for sure.

[Romanion]

Awww. Are you hurt, little boy ? Because you know that your entire nation has disgraced Europe and there is nothing you can do about it ? :coffee:

Are you done writing your book; "How the jews forced the Netherlands to make the slave trade"? Greece has acomplished more that your sinking (literally) nation has done ever.

[The Lawspeaker]

Are you done writing your book; "How the jews forced the Netherlands to make the slave trade"? Greece has acomplished more that your sinking (literally) nation has done ever.
What have you done over the past 800 years then ? We defeated the biggest empire ever, defeated English, French and Germans at the same time, conquered the seven seas, created a lot of technological, architectural, artistic and medical improvements, created the first multinationals, led the first industrial revolution (wind-powered !). So what about Greece ?

[Romanion]

What have you done over the past 800 years then ?

What has netherlands ever done at all, your little country has been overun an defeated by anyone sho steped foot in there. You are just the leftovers of the religious wars in Northern Europe.

[The Lawspeaker]

What has netherlands ever done at all, your little country has been overun an defeated by anyone sho steped foot in there. You are just the leftovers of the religious wars in Northern Europe.
Wrong. That's more like Greece. It had to be liberated by the British and the French from the Turks. Greece has been doing nothing of any value since .. ever. That's something about the Greeks I never understood: with your "maritime history"(of the classical era) why not beat us at our own game ? You have more ports then we have. A bigger population. But nothing happens. No industrial developments, no proper investments in ports. Nothing. Is it because there is no Germany right next door ? Ooh wait.. there is. Turkey.

So that's no excuse either. So what is the excuse ? Why isn't Greece a maritime, commercial power that uses it's excellent location (close to Egypt and thus to the Suez Canal), close to Turkey (close to the Bosporus) with the Balkans as it's hinterland to fuel it's economy ?

Why ?

[Romanion]

]What have you done over the past 800 years then ? We defeated the biggest empire ever, defeated English, French and Germans at the same time

LOL, Netherlands has been the bitch of whoever has steped into your country.


conquered the seven seas, created a lot of technological, architectural, artistic and medical improvements, created the first multinationals, led the first industrial revolution (wind-powered !).

Yawn.

[Romanion]

Wrong. That's more like Greece. It had to be liberated by the British and the French from the Turks. Greece has been doing nothing of any value since .. ever. That's something about the Greeks I never understood: with your "maritime history"(of the classical era) why not beat us at our own game ? You have more ports then we have. A bigger population. But nothing happens. No industrial developments, no proper investments in ports. Nothing. Is it because there is no Germany right next door ? Ooh wait.. there is. Turkey.

So that's no excuse either. So what is the excuse ? Why isn't Greece a maritime, commercial power that uses it's excellent location (close to Egypt and thus to the Suez Canal), close to Turkey (close to the Bosporus) with the Balkans as it's hinterland to fuel it's economy ?

Why ?

Greeks owns the largest maritime fleet on earth.

[The Lawspeaker]

----
Load of rubbish. You have been Turkish for close to half a millennium. That's no excuse. What is your countries' excuse ? Why did we become a maritime power (and face it: when it comes to location we have no such luck. When it comes to neighbours: not the ones you'd wish on your enemies, our own country ? it was a swamp) while you people (location: excellent, apart from Turkey, in the past) didn't ?


Greeks owns the largest maritime fleet on earth.
So does Panama. But Peiraieús is no Rotterdam while it could be Rotterdam 2.0 with the same going for Thessaloniki.

[Romanion]

Load of rubbish. You have been Turkish for close to half a millennium. That's no excuse. What is your countries' excuse ? Why did we become a maritime power (and face it: when it comes to location we have no such luck. When it comes to neighbours: not the ones you'd wish on your enemies, our own country ? it was a swamp) while you people (location: excellent, apart from Turkey, in the past) didn't ?


So does Panama. But Peiraieús is no Rotterdam while it could be Rotterdam 2.0 with the same going for Thessaloniki.

You have absolutly no clue of Greek naval history, during the Ottoman era or now.

[The Lawspeaker]

You have absolutly no clue of Greek naval history, during the Ottoman era or now.
Why ? Why haven't the Greeks outclasses us yet ?

[jerney]

I would come close to hundreds of Euro's. And that's not withstanding the rest that will be subtracted because of rising rents, rising healthcare costs (a visit to the dentist nowadays is close to 300 euro's) - getting my vaccinations was close to 300 as well so with our tax rate you can look it up for youself.

And Greeks don't pay taxes.. even if they say so on paper: they dodge them (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jan/24/greece-tax-dodging-crackdown).

lol "hundreds of euros"? If that's all you pay in taxes every year then either your income is tiny/near non existent (you don't have a real job, like I said) or you somehow got extremely lucky. I'm willing to bet the former.

If you don't want to continue looking like a fool I suggest you stop acting like an expert on things after you've read a few news articles online.

[The Lawspeaker]

----
Ad hominems from someone that doesn't have a real opinion on things. I have seen that before with you. ;)

Indeed. I repeat the question: why haven't the Greeks outclasses us yet. They have resources. They have the location. They have the socalled 3000+ years of history. Why ?

Maybe it's incompetence. Maybe it's corruption. Maybe it's just complacency.

[Romanion]

Why ? Why haven't the Greeks outclasses us yet ?

What are you talking about, Greek shipping is far larger than Netherland shipping.

[The Lawspeaker]

What are you talking about, Greek shipping is far larger than Netherland shipping.
On paper or in reality ? Knowing Greece: it's all on paper. Ever been to Rotterdam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_of_Rotterdam) before ? I have. That's what you get when you were working in transport then you had to go to the port. (yes. I have been working in that field for a couple of years)

[jerney]

Ad hominems from someone that doesn't have a real opinion on things. I have seen that before with you. ;)

Ignoring what you don't want to respond to, changing arguments mid sentence and contradicting yourself seems to be what you do best. If you want to talk about ad hominems I can drag up 90% of disagreements you've had on this forum and you'll see that seems to be your main go-to move in all of them.

[Panopticon]

Nai, nai, panta exeis dikio, paidi mou LOL!

VTXl-A2HFZo

Southern Albania isn't much of a disputed area, that some ultra-nationalist Greeks, (very common on the Internet btw, as a lot of extremist scum are), are calling for the annexation of southern Albania into Greece doesn't change that.


All your bullcrap from Albanians are not Illyrians, Albanians are foreigners from the Caucasus, the "fake" state of Albania, are merely a psychological justification in your own minds of your aggression and desire to claim land by violence and more importantly to create some sort of excuse that those people are not exactly "like us". That they are somewhat different, inferior, and you have a right to impose your "superiority" by force. An extension of genocidal thinking. Why don't you just say it openly you cowards, you want to take their lands and kill thousands and enslave thousands more, it doesn't matter right? They're Caucasians/Turks/animals right? That's what's in your wet dreams.


Vladimir Arsenijevic speaks of that in his article "Our negroes, our enemies" and sums it up really well.

It should be read by everyone with an honest interest in understanding, at least partially, this aspect of Yugoslav society, which still has a hold on ex-Yugoslav countries, especially Serbia.


For all ex-Yugoslavs, but particularly for the Serbs, the Kosovo Albanians used to be simply "our negroes." Nowadays, however, they are cast as Serbia's arch-enemies – a myth ruthlessly exploited by nationalist politicians, even as negotiations take place over the future of the southern Serbian province of Kosovo, which has been under UN administration since 1999.

Read more. (http://www.signandsight.com/features/1582.html)


To make good conversation, something you are unable to do. Loki made a mistake with you.

If you want anyone to take you seriously, don't attack other users as you do.

The article posted earlier speaks of the U.S granting some 400 Abrams tanks to Greece. Afaik, Abrams are old and somewhat outdate. The article itself tells us that there will be "options of simple refurbishment" and upgradation; both costly... and probably needed. So money would have been spent anyway.

This reminds me of some tricks that salesmen use. Give something for free or at low cost, but include costly "packages" with it, so to make it appear as it's a bargain but it's really not.

Most importantly: never insult people. Insults tend to backfire more often than not, (especially in discussions, and especially when it's an insult to the intelligence of others). However, the reason these types of insults tend to backfire might have more with the people who stoop to that level themselves rather than anything else.

[The Lawspeaker]

---
Come up with an argument instead. Why hasn't Greece outclassed us yet ?

[Romanion]

On paper or in reality ? Knowing Greece: it's all on paper. Ever been to Rotterdam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_of_Rotterdam) before ? I have. That's what you get when you were working in transport then you had to go to the port. (yes. I have been working in that field for a couple of years)

Wow you are so naive. Anyways, a deal was signed to make the port of Athens the entery way for Chineese goods in the future. Greece current naval enterprises puts the Netherlands to shame. Greece's military history puts the Netherlands to shame. Greece's cultural history puts the Netherlands to shame. Greece is in a bad spot now, but in two years our growth % will put the netherlands to shame.

[The Lawspeaker]

Wow you are so naive. Anyways, a deal was signed to make the port of Athens the entery way for Chineese goods in the future. Greece current naval enterprises puts the Netherlands to shame. Greece's military history puts the Netherlands to shame. Greece's cultural history puts the Netherlands to shame. Greece is in a bad spot now, but in two years our growth % will put the netherlands to shame.
First see. Then I will believe. :D O.K. Make the port of Athens like Rotterdam and your airport like Schiphol and then we will talk. Before that: pay back the money you have lend from us.. with interest.

[jerney]

Come up with an argument instead. Why hasn't Greece outclassed us yet ?

I don't even know what sheer stupidity you're talking about.

[Romanion]

First see. Then I will believe. :D O.K. Make the port of Athens like Rotterdam and your airport like Schiphol and then we will talk. Before that: pay back the money you have lend from us.. with interest.

I think we shouldn't pay back anything at all.

[The Lawspeaker]

I don't even know what sheer stupidity you're talking about.
Try again. This time with a case rather then bollocks. Why haven't the Greeks outclassed us yet ? He says that Greek naval enterprises put us to shame. Well let's suppose they do. Where is infrastructure to bring the goods to the surrounding countries. Where is the Greece's version of the Betuwelijn (appalling financial disaster that was but nevertheless) ?

What is it's hinterland ? What is it most important export product ?


I think we shouldn't pay back anything at all.
Then we should sell you to the Turks. It would be great since we would make good money out of that one. Knowing Turks: they pay. They are very good, hard-working trading partners. I can't remember the last time I was cheated by a Turk (there is a lot of negative stuff that can be said about them but not that they are dishonest in financial affairs or trade). Because that would be a blatant lie.

[Romanion]

[QUOTE=Romanion;836437]

You've never been to Albania, I'm in Greece so I can talk about both countries. There's no different in the way Greece and Albania is run. It's the same level of political corruption, your mafia state exists only in your fantasy.




No, it's not fantasy at all, Albania and Kosovo are always ranked the highest in corruption and criminal activity. 20 years since the fall of communism and albania can't get itself together. Serbia is a EU member candatite state and they went through a civil war.

[Romanion]

Then we should sell you to the Turks. It would be great since we would make good money out of that one. Knowing Turks: they pay. They are very good, hard-working trading partners. I can't remember the last time I was cheated by a Turk (there is a lot of negative stuff that can be said about them but not that they are dishonest in financial affairs or trade). Because that would be a blatant lie.

You should "sell us", lol netherlands can't do anything militarily in its existance.

[Insuperable]

I can say from neutral stand that only one or two countries in Europe can compare with netherlands in terms of their accomplishments ( when we take size and population in mind ofcourse )
Really smart people.

But Belanda although you are a Dutch you are not an image of your people.
Since you want to feel so superior you need to know that superiority can't be enforced by force into peoples minds, it needs to be deserved and people need to respect you
that is What is the point of you feeling so superior when others because of your behavior do not think that?

[jerney]

Try again. This time with a case rather then bollocks. Why haven't the Greeks outclassed us yet ? He says that Greek naval enterprises put us to shame. Well let's suppose they do. Where is infrastructure to bring the goods to the surrounding countries. Where is the Greece's version of the Betuwelijn (appalling financial disaster that was but nevertheless) ?

What is it's hinterland ? What is it most important export product ?

Why would I speak about things which I know little about? I'm not you. Why would you even address me about this topic when I wasn't involved in the first place? To finally make yourself look a little bit more knowledgeable on something? Congrats, you know more than me on this topic :thumbs up

[The Lawspeaker]

----
I am still wondering why Greece hasn't done it yet.

[Saruman]

Greece requested these tanks in response to the Turkish tank buildup of 1000 new tanks, they are free but they are A1 standard and upgrades which are likely to happen will cost. In response Turks have increased the number of new tanks they plan to build by 200 to 1200.

What happened here seems obviously politically motivated, situation in FYROM is increasingly explosive and everyone knows that for some time, this is no surprise.

[Flintlocke]

No, it's not fantasy at all, Albania and Kosovo are always ranked the highest in corruption and criminal activity. 20 years since the fall of communism and albania can't get itself together. Serbia is a EU member candatite state and they went through a civil war.

So Serbia is gonna be fucked just like Greece? Oh dear. And what has corruption has to do with anything? Just because politicians are corrupt that doesn't mean anything for the quality of live of its people. Most Albanians have the same quality of live as the Greeks. They may get only 200-300 euros per month but expenses are lower so it's balanced finely. And the infrastructure is fine, there's law and order, and just some mafia families are the criminal ones.

You wanna keep talking about corruption? There's two years that Greece is suffering, there's 1200+ suicides from the crisis, there's thousands of homeless people which weren't there before, there's 2 million darkies, your politicians totally robbed you blind and you still wanna talk about corruption? Did you miss yesterday's news about Tsoxatzopoulos?

[Minesweeper]

It was necessary, we fought, we struggled and they died. But I won't go around demonizing. But you still use these incidents to make a claim that Albanians are evil and satanic. The Serbs committed many more crimes than the KLA but I won't go around and blame and dehumanize and consider the Serb nation barbaric, in fact I have more respect for you than those Monkeydonians. These things happen in war and I understand why your side did it but you want to picture all Albanians as some savage tribe from a 18th century book.

It wasn't necessary, it just made the Serbs even more more furious. Kidnapping and executing soldiers is forbidden by Geneva convention, not to mention power plants workers, miners and others who worked for entire Kosovo, regardless of ethnic background.

And let's expose another myth, those were not separate incidents but KLA praxis in 1997-1999(and after the war) period in order to destabilize Kosovo with terror and cause the foreign intervention against a sovereign state. Besides, they made a good business with selling organs of their victims worldwide with the help of Albanian mafia. In fact, most of the KLA leadership were criminals who run the criminal state in the Balkans called Kosovo. It's a well known ''secret'' that Kosovo is a criminal(mafia) para-state.

They don't show these pictures on CNN, missing Serbs are unimportant.
http://www.slobodanjovanovic.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/traga-se-ya-jos-525-nestalih-srba.jpg

[Romanion]

So Serbia is gonna be fucked just like Greece? Oh dear. And what has corruption has to do with anything? Just because politicians are corrupt that doesn't mean anything for the quality of live of its people. Most Albanians have the same quality of live as the Greeks. They may get only 200-300 euros per month but expenses are lower so it's balanced finely. And the infrastructure is fine, there's law and order, and just some mafia families are the criminal ones.

You wanna keep talking about corruption? There's two years that Greece is suffering, there's 1200+ suicides from the crisis, there's thousands of homeless people which weren't there before, there's 2 million darkies, your politicians totally robbed you blind and you still wanna talk about corruption? Did you miss yesterday's news about Tsoxatzopoulos?

Yes Greece has corruption in its political scene, and I hate it all, but I originally addressed you because of your opinion and the double standard between Albanians being addresed and foreign and you calling the slavs foreign to acheive the same hatred. FYRo Macedonia has every right do defend its territory, and its no secret Albanians dream of a larger Albania.

Albania has proven that it can not improve itself at all where as FYROM does have the political will to do so. I'd rather have a whole FYROM than a larger Albania.

[Romanion]

[QUOTE=Flintlocke;836710]

It wasn't necessary, it just made the Serbs even more more furious. Kidnapping and executing soldiers is forbidden by Geneva convention, not to mention power plants workers, miners and others who worked for entire Kosovo, regardless of ethnic background.

And let's expose another myth, those were not separate incidents but KLA praxis in 1997-1999 period in order to destabilize Kosovo with terror and cause the foreign intervention against a sovereign state.

They don't show these pictures on CNN
http://www.slobodanjovanovic.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/traga-se-ya-jos-525-nestalih-srba.jpg

I never said that, you quoted wronge. NVM you fixed it.

[Vojnik]

Can these stupid off topic comments be deleted by any chance?

[Minesweeper]

So Serbia is gonna be fucked just like Greece?

Oh, we survived few worst-cases scenarios so far, wars, hyperinflation, trade embargos, etc.

That made us much tougher than all EU states. What is an opened wound for them is just a scratch for us.:D

[Hess]

I am still wondering why Greece hasn't done it yet.

I can answer that. Greece has historically stood at the Vanguard of European Civilization, an outpost against the flood of Easterners who seek to overrun our homes and destroy us.

From the time of Xerxes and the Persian Hordes, it was Greece that suffered first every time Europe was attacked by its mortal enemies.

[The Lawspeaker]

I can answer that. Greece has historically stood at the Vanguard of European Civilization, an outpost against the flood of Easterners who seek to overrun our homes and destroy us.

From the time of Xerxes and the Persian Hordes, it was Greece that suffered first every time Europe was attacked by its mortal enemies.
My country had to fight the biggest empire the world has ever seen (and won), we were attacked by two German princedoms and the full might of England and France at the same time. We won. And on top of that we had a Golden Age.

We were obliterated by the Nazi's AND Allies (the Allies did more damage then the Germans) during World War II and on top of that we lost Indonesia. Still.. we are one of the most efficient economies in the world and recovered (and became much richer than before the war) in less then 15 years time. Why can we do while they can't ?

[Hess]

My country had to fight the biggest empire the world has ever seen (and won), we were attacked by two German princedoms and the full might of England and France at the same time. We won. And on top of that we had a Golden Age.

We were obliterated by the Nazi's AND Allies (the Allies did more damage then the Germans) during World War II and on top of that we lost Indonesia. Still.. we are one of the most efficient economies in the world and recovered (and became much richer than before the war) in less then 15 years time. Why can we do while they can't ?

But was the Netherlands ruled by the Ottoman Empire for over 300 hundred years? There really is no recovering from that :shrug:

The Dutch didn't even experience 10% of the suffering the Greeks had to endure under Saracen Rule.

[The Lawspeaker]

But was the Netherlands ruled by the Ottoman Empire for over 300 hundred years? There really is no recovering from that :shrug:

The Dutch didn't even experience 10% of the suffering the Greeks had to endure under Saracen Rule.
The Ottomans were thrown out of the country in 1821- 1832. We have suffered at the hands of the Spanish. They had plenty of time to recover.

[Minesweeper]

But was the Netherlands ruled by the Ottoman Empire for over 300 hundred years? There really is no recovering from that :shrug:

The Dutch didn't even experience 10% of the suffering the Greeks had to endure under Saracen Rule.

True, Turkish rule in the Balkans was bloody and cruel.

[The Lawspeaker]

True, Turkish rule in the Balkans was bloody and cruel.
Spanish rule in the Netherlands wasn't ? The French invasions weren't ? The Nazi occupation wasn't ?

[Romanion]

[QUOTE]I don't call the Slavs foreign to achieve the same hatred, I call them foreign because they are foreign. They came and conquered the areas they now inhabit, well good for them they should be proud of their warriorship. But I'm not a narrow nationalist I'm a general white racist and I want to go away from these petty balkanian bullshit redneck mentality. It's the same thing nowadays as it was in the 1400's. The invaders are at the door while we keep on fighting amongst ourselves. I'm willing to acknowledge them as fellow europeans living next to us but as long as they keep on hammering this bullshit 19th century nationalism and petty imeprialism I will not do so.

And if we are to believe Ancient Greek writers, Acheans and Greeks are foreign to this land as well. It's not 1400's anymore, but people act like its the 19th century with contunually changing boarders.


And FYI Albania has improved the last 20 years 1000 times more that it improved under the 50 years of communism. But you don't care about that you just wanna keep on hammering your lies and propaganda.[/

No lies, statistics I read from professional sources.

[Romanion]

Spanish rule in the Netherlands wasn't ? The French invasions weren't ? The Nazi occupation wasn't ?

Did they last 400 years?

[The Lawspeaker]

Did they last 400 years?
Actually. The only moments of peace and quiet were between 1839-1940 and after 1949.

[Romanion]

Actually. The only moments of peace and quiet were between 1839-1940 and after 1949.

But you were not facing a continual occupation during that time. Ottomans, dispite your pro-turkish attitude, was a backwards and regressive empire.

[Romanion]

The Ottomans were thrown out of the country in 1821- 1832. We have suffered at the hands of the Spanish. They had plenty of time to recover.

Greece was doing very fine up untill the 1940's with the german occupation and the civil war that gutted the country. The marshel plan made Greece grow in the 1950's by an average of 6-7% annually. Greece's current economic position was started in the 1980's with PASOK and his subsidised socialist program. If I blame anyoen single political party for Greece's current position it is PASOK and its socialist fairytale.

[Minesweeper]

Spanish rule in the Netherlands wasn't ? The French invasions weren't ? The Nazi occupation wasn't ?

I'm not saying it wasn't but you can't compare Christin Spanish with Muslim Turks. During it's history, Serbia was literally an empty land several times, all that saved us were our mountains. And I can't even count the numerous anti-Turkish and anti-Austrian uprisings.

And WW2 and German occupation, well, that's another bloody Balkan story. Everyone fighting everyone, everyone cooperates with everyone, and the positions changing. Than the bombardments, first German, than Allied, than Soviet breakthrough and devastation of countryside, and so on.

[The Lawspeaker]

I'm not saying it wasn't but you can't compare Christin Spanish with Muslim Turks. During it's history, Serbia was literally an empty land several times, all that saved us were our mountains. And I can't even count the numerous anti-Turkish and anti-Austrian uprisings.
Parts of the Netherlands were pretty much depopulated by the Spanish. The catholic Spanish slaughtered every protestant they could get their hands on and most of the elite from the Southern Netherlands fled North.


And WW2 and German occupation, well, that's another bloody Balkan story. Everyone fighting everyone, everyone cooperates with everyone, and the positions changing. Than the bombardments, first German, than Allied, than Soviet breakthrough and devastation of countryside, and so on.
Well. Basically our entire industry and infrastructure was blown to pieces.. most of our cities as well. We had a severe housing shortage of 300.000 houses per year until the 1970s. Between 205.000 and 305.000 (fact is: we will never know how many) people were murdered by the Germans and Japanese.


Greece was doing very fine up untill the 1940's with the german occupation and the civil war that gutted the country. The marshel plan made Greece grow in the 1950's by an average of 6-7% annually. Greece's current economic position was started in the 1980's with PASOK and his subsidised socialist program. If I blame anyoen single political party for Greece's current position it is PASOK and its socialist fairytale.
Always blame it on the socialists. ;). Well.. here the VVD and KVP didn't cause the growth. It was under the PvdA.


But you were not facing a continual occupation during that time. Ottomans, dispite your pro-turkish attitude, was a backwards and regressive empire.You haven't been occupied since 1832 until World War II.

[Romanion]

[QUOTE]Always blame it on the socialists. ;). Well.. here the VVD and KVP didn't cause the growth. It was under the PvdA.

Can you tell I lean right? :thumb001:


You haven't been occupied since 1832 until World War II.

I already explained the 1940's.

[The Lawspeaker]

Can you tell I lean right? :thumb001:
It's funny that we only used to have economic crisis when there were right-wing governments. The same goes for Scandinavia (for what I have seen).




I already explained the 1940's.
You lot caused your own civil war after the war otherwise you would have escaped pretty much unscathed compared to us.

[Romanion]

You lot caused your own civil war after the war otherwise you would have escaped pretty much unscathed compared to us.

This is true, the KKE (communist party) wanted to seize athens after the Germans left and create a communist Greece, thank god this didn't happen.

I don't like the KKEand I don't like socialism, Greece needs to privatise as much as it can and lower the taxes as the result. No income tax, I like what bulgaria did, a flat tax across the baord to minimize tax evasion. Get rid of its mandatory military participation, reduce and make more efficient military, and drill for oil in its EEZ.

[Minesweeper]

Parts of the Netherlands were pretty much depopulated by the Spanish. The catholic Spanish slaughtered every protestant they could get their hands on and most of the elite from the Southern Netherlands fled North.

Well. Basically our entire industry and infrastructure was blown to pieces.. most of our cities as well. We had a severe housing shortage of 300.000 houses per year until the 1970s. Between 205.000 and 305.000 (fact is: we will never know how many) people were murdered by the Germans and Japanese.




Seems that both nations suffered a lot, but let's not compete about who suffered more, it's inappropriate.

[The Lawspeaker]

This is true, the KKE (communist party) wanted to seize athens after the Germans left and create a communist Greece, thank god this didn't happen.

I don't like the KKEand I don't like socialism, Greece needs to privatise as much as it can and lower the taxes as the result. No income tax, I like what bulgaria did, a flat tax across the baord to minimize tax evasion.
And that won't help Greece. It will only help a couple of rich foreign investors. My recommendation would be to send Greek economists to the Netherlands to study the Polder Model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polder_Model). It might work for you lot down there as well.


Get rid of its mandatory military participation, reduce and make more efficient military, and drill for oil in its EEZ.
That's good. Those are efficient cutbacks and oil drilling provides for income.

[Europa]

Thank you gentlemen for shiting on this sad thread,despite the fact that all claims about Albanians being the murderers in this case are not proven.
What a buch of disrespectful lads you are....:coffee:

[Romanion]

And that won't help Greece. It will only help a couple of rich foreign investors. My recommendation would be to send Greek economists to the Netherlands to study the Polder Model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polder_Model). It might work for you lot down there as well.

Greece culture and attitude is different than Netherland culture and attitude, there is no cookie cutter model for economics. Greece needs to reform its entire political system from a multiparty to the an American two party system when you can elect the cadidites and the PM, this will earase the oligarchic system that developed in Greece. As well as adopt the English "hosue of lords" that regulates that two parties so they don't do anything corrupt. We can call it "archonship" like in ancient Athens.

The capital should also be moved from Athens to Salonica; Athens is way to crwoded and has way to much of the overall population of Greece. Salonica is new and the soil is better for a larger city to emerge.

Greece needs to be affordable to live in again, if we can't get rid of the euro, we need to lower taxes so we keep more money.

[Flintlocke]

If you Minesweeper or any other Srb was to say "dude we need some help to deal with those Pakistanis" I would gladly help you, but from what I see if I was to ask the same you'd probably join with the Pakis against us.

[The Lawspeaker]

Greece culture and attitude is different than Netherland culture and attitude, there is no cookie cutter model for economics. Greece needs to reform its entire political system from a multiparty to the an American two party system when you can elect the cadidites and the PM, this will earase the oligarchic system that developed in Greece. As well as adopt the English "hosue of lords" that regulates that two parties so they don't do anything corrupt. We can call it "archonship" like in ancient Athens.
Then you would two oligarchic parties like in America or Britain. It doesn't make a difference. There is no cookie cutter model for an economy but one can always learn from other countries and I would say that the Dutch economic model is very stable and very moderate as both employees and employers (usually) get a piece of the pie.


The capital should also be moved from Athens to Salonica; Athens is way to crwoded and has way to much oft the overall population of Greece. Salonica is new and the soil is better for a larger city to emerge.
That might actually be a good idea. Athens is just overcrowded and the capital should have been moved a long time ago but Salonica is also a big city so it wouldn't help much. Maybe building a new capital somewhere might be better one day ?


Greece needs to be affordable to live in again, if we can't get rid of the euro, we need to lower taxes so we keep more money.
I think Greece should dump the Euro instead (and so should we here).

[Romanion]

Then you would two oligarchic parties like in America or Britain. It doesn't make a difference. There is no cookie cutter model for an economy but one can always learn from other countries and I would say that the Dutch economic model is very stable and very moderate as both employees and employers (usually) get a piece of the pie.


Yes there are criticism for both, but what the two party system does bring is political stability. If its one thing Greece has lacked sicne 1830 is political stability! stability attracts investment and grows the economy. The "archonship" borrowing from the english I would theories would offset any corruption from teh two party system, a merger of two succesful insitutions.


That might actually be a good idea. Athens is just overcrowded and the capital should have been moved a long time ago but Salonica is also a big city so it wouldn't help much. Maybe building a new capital somewhere might be better one day ?

Salonica is ideal suited because of the terrain and its closer to European heartland. Greece's topography is overall mountainous and rockey, but Macedonia has the most open flat land in Greece and a capital city would boom there.



I think Greece should dump the Euro instead (and so should we here

Or a better idea a Netherland friend of mine told me is to make competing currencies; the Euro would be used for international trasnaction and such and the local currency would be used by the people. I liked her idea.

[Onur]

Don't be scared, I won't hurt you.
Haha, no matter what you do, you cannot scare us because you are just a minor nuisance to us. Turks are just laughing at you, nothing else.

Your country is just a junkyard of US/German/French war industry. They dump their 2nd hand equipment to you and leech your billions of Euros as well as the taxmoney of the ordinary Dutch, German people.

On the other hand, Turkey developed it`s own military technology for more than a decade. We are producing our own tanks, helicopters, submarines and all other equipments and even, soon our own warplane.

Tuan Belanda gives you too much credit. I would say that it takes even less than 48h to order a Turkish coffee in Athens for our military.

[Romanion]

Haha, no matter what you do, you cannot scare us because you are just a minor nuisance to us. Turks are just laughing at you, nothing else.

Your country is just a junkyard of US/German/French war industry. They dump their 2nd hand equipment to you and leech your billions of Euros as well as the taxmoney of the ordinary Dutch, German people.

On the other hand, Turkey developed it`s own military technology for more than a decade. We are producing our own tanks, helicopters, submarines and all other equipments and even, soon our own warplane.

Tuan Belanda gives you too much credit. I would say that it takes even less than 48h to order a Turkish coffee in Athens for our military.

Yes Italy was laughing too, laughing even when we threw them into the Adriatic. Turkey is all bark, like a dog, a country who hasn't been involved in a war for 100 years.

[The Lawspeaker]

Yes there are criticism for both, but what the two party system does bring is political stability. If its one thing Greece has lacked sicne 1830 is political stability! stability attracts investment and grows the economy. The "archonship" borrowing from the english I would theories would offset any corruption from teh two party system, a merger of two succesful insitutions.
What about going for the archonship but make it so that the archon is elected by regional governments but (unlike here) make it illegal for the archon to be affiliated to any party. (and that's something we should do).



Salonica is ideal suited because of the terrain and its closer to European heartland. Greece's topography is overall mountainous and rockey, but Macedonia has the most open flat land in Greece and a capital city would boom there.
I was thinking about two places. One: Marathon (because of it's historical significance and it's close enough to Athens). Or Thermopylae. Well it may have been the seat of an historical defeat it is also more into Greece's interior and it's relatively half-way between the border and Athens (and thus closer to Europe). It also has volcanic hot spring at it's disposal (a nice little earner).

Problem for both versions: the infrastructure would need to be built from scratch.





Or a better idea a Netherland friend of mine told me is to make competing currencies; the Euro would be used for international trasnaction and such and the local currency would be used by the people. I liked her idea.
That's actually a very good idea. I never thought of that one. :thumbs up

[Romanion]

[QUOTE=Romanion;836718]

First off, there wasnt an actual regime till 1998 so it wasn't 20 years. Second please name me a counry that has had as much progress as Albania in less then 14 years. Lastly, Candidate status means nothing, look at Fyrom they've had candidate status for 5 years now and they're still not in the E.U.

Only because Greece has blocked them. Serbia will be in the EU befor Albania or Kosovo then we will see who will veto who.

[Romanion]

[QUOTE=Romanion;836718]

First off, there wasnt an actual regime till 1998 so it wasn't 20 years. Second please name me a counry that has had as much progress as Albania in less then 14 years. Lastly, Candidate status means nothing, look at Fyrom they've had candidate status for 5 years now and they're still not in the E.U.

Name you one or many? All the ex-yugolsavic countries besides bosnia have had mroe progress economically and socialy than albania.

[The Lawspeaker]

Thanks for generalising mate, that shows how much you know about 'US'.
Not to mention the fact that you are a Mod and your 'job' is to try to stay unbiassed,resistent to provocations as much as you can and stay on topic.Unless I'm wrong?If so....such a pitty for this forum:coffee:
I am sorry, Europa, but the last war is barely over and now it seems that down there in Macedonia they are already working on the next. What should we, in the West, think about that ?

[Romanion]

What about going for the archonship but make it so that the archon is elected by regional governments but (unlike here) make it illegal for the archon to be affiliated to any party. (and that's something we should do).

Regional governments have political affiliations, I like the english House of Lords model alot and should be adopted.



I was thinking about two places. One: Marathon (because of it's historical significance and it's close enough to Athens). Or Thermopylae. Well it may have been the seat of an historical defeat it is also more into Greece's interior and it's relatively half-way between the border and Athens (and thus closer to Europe). It also has volcanic hot spring at it's disposal (a nice little earner).

They are both bad places, they are small and mountainous, more symbolic than anything else. Practically, Salonica would be best.

[The Lawspeaker]

Regional governments have political affiliations, I like the english House of Lords model alot and should be adopted.
Then that could work too.





They are both bad places, they are small and mountainous, more symbolic than anything else. Practically, Salonica would be best.
It's also very close to the coast and if the Turks invade the place, coming in from the Aegean it won't take long before they are right on your government's doorstep. so it may be practical in the short run but if war breaks out ?

[Romanion]

It's also very close to the coast and within easy range of the Turks.. so it may be practical in the short run but if war breaks out ?

War with Turkey is not as one sided as people think. Greece and Turkey buy the same crap, only turkey can afford to buy more of the crap. Greece is natuarally a defensible country. All that aside, a war between Greece adn Turkey will involve more than just our two countries, and because of this I don't think Greece has anything to worry about.

[The Lawspeaker]

War with Turkey is not as one sided as people think. Greece and Turkey buy the same crap, only turkey can afford to buy more of the crap. Greece is natuarally a defensible country. All that aside, a war between Greece adn Turkey will involve more than just our two countries, and because of this I don't think Greece has anything to worry about.
Well.. Germany and the Netherlands have not been at war for 60 years. I would still consider it to be.. unwise to build a capital in Nijmegen. ;)

Jerry would only need to start his car and he'd be in Nijmegen in ten minutes.

[Romanion]

Well.. Germany and the Netherlands have not been at war for 60 years. I would still consider it to be.. unwise to build a capital in Nijmegen. ;)

Jerry would only need to start his car and he'd be in Nijmegen in ten minutes.

Ya, well, realistically if Germany did invade Netherlands a whole lot of geo-political realities will need to emerge that I do not see hapening an time soon.

Another thing to remember is Istambul is Turkey economic heart, 1/3 of its GDP. Greece woulnd't need to step foot in asia to beat Turkey, it just need to knock out the bospherous bridges and shut down that town, which is close to the boarder. I think Ankara realizes this and this is why it is so paranoid about Greek claming its legal airspace and such.

[Europa]

Thank you Tuan,that's a different story.:coffee:

Corruption and tax evasion are seriously undermining the integrity of the Greek state, and are severe contributors to the current crisis in the Euro area. Bribery is endemic, with the cost of the average bribe estimated at €1406 – a massive sum.

The engagement of people in Greece in these issues is fundamental – not only to help resolve the financial crisis but also in the fight against corruption. Engaging the public is one of the priorities of TI-Greece and they are working on this now, sharing information, and organizing workshops and seminars in cities and towns around the country in order to present the findings of the NIS Report and engender greater discussion and debate.
Greece is facing multiple challenges and the fight of corruption is one of them. The question is whether the citizens of Greece and the political establishment alike understand that important link between the political and economic crises and corruption.
When you go to Greece, it is very striking how deep the crisis is. The public anger is noticeable. On the anti corruption side there is a paradox: on the one hand top public officials say it is not a top priority for the interim government because of other more pressing priorities. On the other hand, there was huge interest in the NIS launch – it received widespread coverage in the Greek media and around the world – and people clearly see a nexus between corruption, the political and economic crisis and financial integrity.
Greece’s problems are so deep and structural that we there is no one cause or aggravating factor that you can point to and solve the problem by eliminating. However, there is plenty that we can do for Greece.

Continue to strengthen the EU Savings Tax Directive (EUSTD), making it more difficult for tax evaders to move their money around European Union member states. Showing horrible timing, Germany is actually getting in the way of the law’s progress right now.

Stop allowing for the creation of anonymous shell corporations (http://www.financialtaskforce.org/issues/beneficial-ownership/), a favorite tool of tax evaders for laundering money. Very wealthy Greek and Italian individuals who seek to evade taxes can easily hide behind them in tax havens.
None these steps would by themselves directly correct any kind of values deficit present in Greece. However, they would make it easier for the Greek government to take the first steps on curtailing corruption. Over time, a transparent financial system can lead to shifts in cultural norms and values, as authorities are better able to bring back an effective rule of law.
The Greek government has promised to slash its public deficit from nearly 13 percent of gross domestic product to nearly nine percent of Gross Domestic Product by the year's end. Greece's debt is currently estimated at more than $404 billion - or about 113 percent of its GDP.

Just how serious is the Greek crisis? Very serious, says economist Paula Subacchi of the Chatham House policy institute in London.

"The crisis is serious and it is serious for many reasons. One is because of the credibility of Greece. And the events of the past couple of days do not really improve confidence in the country and therefore foreign investors are very concerned,"

[The Lawspeaker]

Ya, well, realistically if Germany did invade Netherlands a whole lot of geo-political realities will need to emerge that I do not see hapening an time soon.
Never say never. We didn't expect the Germans to ever show their ugly faces again. But my grandparents saw those Fallschirmjäger over The Hague on 10 May 1940.


Another thing to remember is Istambul is Turkey economic heart, 1/3 of its GDP. Greece woulnd't need to step foot in asia to beat Turkey, it just need to knock out the bospherous bridges and shut down that town, which is close to the boarder. I think Ankara realizes this and this is why it is so paranoid about Greek claming its legal airspace and such.
And that's Turkey's main weakness. It's the same for Salonica and Athens. So that's maybe why Thermopylae would be a good idea.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Thermopylae_shoreline_changes_map.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Ancient_Regions_Central_Greece.png

A head on attack up the Malian Gulf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malian_Gulf)might not be a good idea. And the city itself could be built along the Spercheios (http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A3%CF%80%CE%B5%CF%81%CF%87%CE%B5%CE%B9%CF%8C%C F%82). The Spartans realised that the place could be defended so maybe it's still the case in modern-day Greece.

[Romanion]

Thank you Tuan,that's a different story.:coffee:

Corruption and tax evasion are seriously undermining the integrity of the Greek state, and are severe contributors to the current crisis in the Euro area. Bribery is endemic, with the cost of the average bribe estimated at €1406 – a massive sum.

The engagement of people in Greece in these issues is fundamental – not only to help resolve the financial crisis but also in the fight against corruption. Engaging the public is one of the priorities of TI-Greece and they are working on this now, sharing information, and organizing workshops and seminars in cities and towns around the country in order to present the findings of the NIS Report and engender greater discussion and debate.
Greece is facing multiple challenges and the fight of corruption is one of them. The question is whether the citizens of Greece and the political establishment alike understand that important link between the political and economic crises and corruption.
When you go to Greece, it is very striking how deep the crisis is. The public anger is noticeable. On the anti corruption side there is a paradox: on the one hand top public officials say it is not a top priority for the interim government because of other more pressing priorities. On the other hand, there was huge interest in the NIS launch – it received widespread coverage in the Greek media and around the world – and people clearly see a nexus between corruption, the political and economic crisis and financial integrity.
Greece’s problems are so deep and structural that we there is no one cause or aggravating factor that you can point to and solve the problem by eliminating. However, there is plenty that we can do for Greece.

Continue to strengthen the EU Savings Tax Directive (EUSTD), making it more difficult for tax evaders to move their money around European Union member states. Showing horrible timing, Germany is actually getting in the way of the law’s progress right now.

Stop allowing for the creation of anonymous shell corporations (http://www.financialtaskforce.org/issues/beneficial-ownership/), a favorite tool of tax evaders for laundering money. Very wealthy Greek and Italian individuals who seek to evade taxes can easily hide behind them in tax havens.
None these steps would by themselves directly correct any kind of values deficit present in Greece. However, they would make it easier for the Greek government to take the first steps on curtailing corruption. Over time, a transparent financial system can lead to shifts in cultural norms and values, as authorities are better able to bring back an effective rule of law.
The Greek government has promised to slash its public deficit from nearly 13 percent of gross domestic product to nearly nine percent of Gross Domestic Product by the year's end. Greece's debt is currently estimated at more than $404 billion - or about 113 percent of its GDP.

Just how serious is the Greek crisis? Very serious, says economist Paula Subacchi of the Chatham House policy institute in London.

"The crisis is serious and it is serious for many reasons. One is because of the credibility of Greece. And the events of the past couple of days do not really improve confidence in the country and therefore foreign investors are very concerned,"


This is what I mean about different cultures and different economic models. If Greeks find a way around not paying for something we will. So that is why I'm pro-privatization. If Greeks don't want to pay for social services we shouldn't have them at all. Its harder to scam private businesses that can reject you when the government can't.

[Europa]

War with Turkey is not as one sided as people think. Greece and Turkey buy the same crap, only turkey can afford to buy more of the crap. Greece is natuarally a defensible country. All that aside, a war between Greece adn Turkey will involve more than just our two countries, and because of this I don't think Greece has anything to worry about.

Yes,a hypothetical war between Greece and Turkey will be fatal for the whole region.It is worthless economically wise as well.:coffee:

[Romanion]

Never say never. We didn't expect the Germans to ever show their ugly face again. But my grandparents saw those Fallschirmjäger over The Hague on 10 May 1940.


And that's Turkey's main weakness. It's the same for Salonica and Athens. So that's maybe why Thermopylae would be a good idea.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Thermopylae_shoreline_changes_map.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Ancient_Regions_Central_Greece.png

A head on attack up the Malian Gulf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malian_Gulf)might not be a good idea. And the city itself could be built along the Spercheios (http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A3%CF%80%CE%B5%CF%81%CF%87%CE%B5%CE%B9%CF%8C%C F%82). The Spartans realised that the place could be defended so maybe it's still the case in modern-day Greece.

You know, the capital can be in Salonica but the MIlitary headqueaters can stay in Athens. Kindda like how the American Pentagon is in Verginia but the capital is in Washington DC. Athens is very defensible.

[The Lawspeaker]

You know, the capital can be in Salonica but the MIlitary headqueaters can stay in Athens. Kindda like how the American Pentagon is in Verginia but the capital is in Washington DC.
That might work too but does Salonica have the place for it ? Where in Salonica could the new centre of government be build ?

[Romanion]

Yes,a hypothetical war between Greece and Turkey will be fatal for the whole region.It is worthless economically wise as well.:coffee:

Well you kow, oil has a way of starting wars.

[Romanion]

That might work too but does Salonica have the place for it ? Where in Salonica could the new centre of government be build ?

Salonica is a beutiful city will alot of areas to expand. Building a new capital building should be the least of the worries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salonica

[Europa]

Well you kow, oil has a way of starting wars.


Guess who will be first to support this kind of war?....:coffee:

[The Lawspeaker]

Salonica is a beutiful city will alot of areas to expand. Building a new capital building should be the least of the worries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salonica
I have looked it up and checked Google Maps as well. That's why I was like "hmmm.. where ?". The area between Pefka and the city seems to be mostly hills. And the waterfront seems to be mostly in use by the port.

[Romanion]

Guess who will be first to support this kind of war?....:coffee:

AMERICA! HURAH! lol well the EEZ issue is still very contensious, but Greece should not give up any sovereignty just because of imperial pressure, especially from Turkey.

[Romanion]

I have looked it up and checked Google Maps as well. That's why I was like "hmmm.. where ?". The area between Pefka and the city seems to be mostly hills. And the waterfront seems to be mostly in use by the port.

Somewhere west of the core. Capital buildings arn't that big lol, it's not the american senate building.

[alb0zfinest]

[QUOTE=alb0zfinest;836944]

Only because Greece has blocked them. Serbia will be in the EU befor Albania or Kosovo then we will see who will veto who.

You actually believe that one European country that holds no power in the E.U wats so ever now, can block the statements of 27 other E.U members? :crazy: The name itself isint holding back the country from E.U., Macedonia has many other problems such as unresolved minority issues, monetary wise its not far off from Albania, standard of living is low, corrruption is still high etc etc. Serbia still has many issues as well, not to mention that they have to recognize Kosovos independence, which the E.U has made it clear as a requirement.
Albania on the other hand has joined nato before most of its neighbors, the economy of Albania continues to grow at a high rate while other countries continues to falter, Colosal increase of foreign direct and indirect investment, almost 5 million tourists just last year, Computer usage from 10% in 2006 to 58% in 2010 etc etc. About the other yougoslav countries while part of yougoslavia they were benefiting it isint as if they started developing 14 years ago which was the case for Albania. Im not asking what countries are doing better then Albania, im asking what countries progressed as quickly as Albania in 14 years.

[The Lawspeaker]

Somewhere west of the core. Capital buildings arn't that big lol, it's not the american senate building.
You forget the various departments. I think I found something. What about on the quayside just east (basically right next too) the ferry port. Build a bus station there and a tunnel underneath the boulevard to the motorway to funnel traffic through the area and you're done. Then reclaim some land there in the bay and one's done. Capital buildings are bigger than you think though. ;).

Just look up the Binnenhof in The Hague - just for comparison and that's without all the departments that are spread throughout The Hague.

[Europa]

[QUOTE=Romanion;836957]

You actually believe that one European country that holds no power in the E.U wats so ever now, can block the statements of 27 other E.U members? :crazy: The name itself isint holding back the country from E.U., Macedonia has many other problems such as unresolved minority issues, monetary wise its not far off from Albania, standard of living is low, corrruption is still high etc etc. Serbia still has many issues as well, not to mention that they have to recognize Kosovos independence, which the E.U has made it clear as a requirement.
Albania on the other hand has joined nato before most of its neighbors, the economy of Albania continues to grow at a high rate while other countries continues to falter, Colosal increase of foreign direct and indirect investment, almost 5 million tourists just last year, Computer usage from 10% in 2006 to 58% in 2010 etc etc. About the other yougoslav countries while part of yougoslavia they were benefiting it isint as if they started developing 14 years ago which was the case for Albania. Im not asking what countries are doing better then Albania, im asking what countries progressed as quickly as Albania in 14 years.

We are not talking about Serbia or Albania anymore mate..

[Romanion]

You forget the various departments. I think I found something. What about on the quayside just east (basically right next too) the ferry port. Build a bus station there and a tunnel underneath the boulevard to the motorway to funnel traffic through the area and you're done. Then reclaim some land there in the bay and one's done. Capital buildings are bigger than you think though. ;).

lol I can't beleive we're going into this much detail.:D its just an idea.

[Europa]

I'm sorry Tuan,I am not trying to act as if I were a Mod.
sORRY!:coffee:

[The Lawspeaker]

lol I can't beleive we're going into this much detail.:D its just an idea.
You're talking to an architecture freak here. :D It's actually a good idea and I think that you should actually write a letter to your government.

Just for the hell of it: such a building could be based on the Oslo Opera House (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Opera_House) as it would be a nice ironical statement.

[Romanion]

It should be a 500 foot replica of the Colossus of Rhodes with rooms insides the body of the structure, that THAT would be impressive :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_of_Rhodes

[The Lawspeaker]

It should be a 500 foot replica of the Colossus of Rhodes with rooms insides the body of the structure, that THAT would be impressive :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_of_Rhodes
LOL ! Hmmm.. what if they would use something modern and build a beach all along reclaimed land along the rest of the boulevard and fill up the rest of the land with the various departments: the civil servants can only look on helplessly while they have to work their ass off for the first time in their lifes are while their citizens enjoying themselves after work. :D

And be sure to keep the waterfront side open.. so the citizens can check whether their civil servants and politicians are actually working.

[alb0zfinest]

[QUOTE=alb0zfinest;837060]

We are not talking about Serbia or Albania anymore mate..

If you look at page 6 that was the case, and because the topic was moved here there was nowhere else to respond.

[Piparskeggr]

Really didn't do more than skim the thread, but I'll paraphrase my wife's answer to the topic...the problem with Greece is the Greeks, especially the men. Her mother was born in Athens, her paternal grandfather in Levidi and her paternal grandmother in Assini.

Her paternal grandfather was a member of the Levidian Society back in Massachusetts and contributed a lot of money to projects back in his home town.

My wife always shakes her head over one picture in particular where the women of Levidi are digging a ditch for a new water supply and the men are just standing around watching them work. That was over half a century ago...

[Romanion]

LOL ! Hmmm.. what if they would use something modern and build a beach all along reclaimed land along the rest of the boulevard and fill up the rest of the land with the various departments: the civil servants can only look on helplessly while they, finally being forced to work, can look at their citizens enjoying themselves after work. :D

lol that could work. In my model, the location for the main chamber for the politicians would be inside the Colossus' ass, with windows so the people can watch them from outside :D

[The Lawspeaker]

lol that could work. In my model, the location for the main chamber for the politicians would be inside the Colossus' ass, with windows so the people can watch them from outside :D
It would be a new local expression "they are talking from the ass" when they see the politicians at work. :D

[Hess]

The Ottomans were thrown out of the country in 1821- 1832. We have suffered at the hands of the Spanish. They had plenty of time to recover.

the 300+ rule under Islamic savages brought Greece to its knees and drained it of all its potential.

It will never recover.

[The Lawspeaker]

the 300+ rule under Islamic savages brought Greece to its knees and drained it of all its potential.

It will never recover.
I doubt it. They had close to 2 centuries to recover and they should start doing just that.

[Hess]

I doubt it. They had close to 2 centuries to recover and they should start doing just that.

by "recover", I mean regain the status they had before Ottoman Occupation. Things might get a better for them, but they will never go back to their pre-Ottoman rule status.

[brunette]

Why not give them abit of time? ^

[The Lawspeaker]

by "recover", I mean regain the status they had before Ottoman Occupation. Things might get a better for them, but they will never go back to their pre-Ottoman rule status.
Then they only have themselves to blame for staying in a victim mentality. We lost Indonesia, had between 205.000 and 305.000 victims in World War II plus some 6500 more during the Indonesian War of Independence, followed by the 1953 floods that flooded a quarter of the country killing another 1836. And within ten years we did better then we did before the war.

It's maybe because Dutch (in that respect a lot like the Germans) didn't sit around moping and bitching but were very quick to rebuild their country. The American investments in us proved to be sound and frugality and hard work brought this country a speedy recovery.


Why not give them abit of time? ^
They have had their time. I think that even Romanian would agree with me that they perhaps they need some tough love and a firm kick under the arse.

We've had the Golden Age, the 1920s, 1950s to 1970s, the late 1990s. Now it is time for a Greek Economic Miracle.

[Queen B]

Unfortunately, I wasn't active for quite some time, but I wasn't around.
Happy that you had a more civil conversation towards the end..



Besides repeat after me: thank you, Netherlands, thank you, Germany. We paid for your breakfast today.

You paid a shit for me, Civis.Seriously.
My heart-transplanted father, working for the last 32 years in the same job, ,and who still works countless hours , and got his salary cut to half, did.
My brother that works 2 jobs for 18 hours, did
(Try moving luggages for 8 hours, in 35-40-45'C, and already work 10 hours, again in a job that need physical strength)
My second brother that also works 2 jobs, did.
My 3rd brother , that studies in University, works full time, and does concerts , also did
My awesome self, also did.

My mother that goes to feed our chickens, also got me the egg that I ate in the omelete, this morning.My parents that would take care of our tomatoes, also did.My whole family that would harvest our olives to get oil, did.

You did nothing to pay not only my breakfast, but anything. Nothing.



And Greeks don't pay taxes..

Tell me your exact amount of the taxes you paid. Then, tell me the exact amount your country paid for Greece's loans. When you do, do the math, of how much of the money you, Civis, paid, went to greece.
I ll be happy to give you the 0.5 of Euro (if its that much) that you paid, to make you stop posting and act like some kind of God.

And then, come and tell me your salary, the cost of living and the amount of taxes you pay.
Then, I will tell you my salary, the cost of living here, and the amount of taxes I pay.
If we do this, I am sure you'd be shamed to talk about Greeks anymore..


You haven't been occupied since 1832 until World War II.
The last 100 years we have been through 2 Balkan wars, 2 World wars, a Greco-Turkish war, a Civil war and a Junta.


It's maybe because Dutch (in that respect a lot like the Germans) didn't sit around moping and bitching but were very quick to rebuild their country. The American investments in us proved to be sound and frugality and hard work brought this country a speedy recovery.
So we did after Civil war . There is a Greek economic miracle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_economic_miracle

[The Lawspeaker]

You paid a shit for me, Civis.Seriously.
My heart-transplanted father, working for the last 32 years in the same job, ,and who still works countless hours , and got his salary cut to half, did.
My brother that works 2 jobs for 18 hours, did
(Try moving luggages for 8 hours, in 35-40-45'C, and already work 10 hours, again in a job that need physical strength)
My second brother that also works 2 jobs, did.
My 3rd brother , that studies in University, works full time, and does concerts , also did
My awesome self, also did.

My mother that goes to feed our chickens, also got me the egg that I ate in the omelete, this morning.My parents that would take care of our tomatoes, also did.My whole family that would harvest our olives to get oil, did.


Still. You need to tell me though why Greece is going under and dragging all of Europe along with it. We had no crisis until Greece began to faulter. Then we were told to pay up, pay up, pay up, pay up. Billions have gone your way by now and now my country is in a recession. Your country has fiddled the books completely. How many civil servants were there ? Over one 1 million in a country of no more then 11 million (http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2011/09/08/health-minister-lashes-out-against-greek-civil-servants/). How many of them actually worked ? A lot of them got their "jobs" because of political favours. It's a bit like Surinam.. they have the same "system". Do you know we much will pay for our bluddy healthcare (a lot of it no longer being covered) next year ? over 750 euro's. You people still have your national health service and all. The first handout that we contributed to you was 4,7 billion euro's last year alone (3.4 percent of what we would expect to get out of taxes in 2012). That's just the preliminary support.

It is reported here in the news that entire communities didn't pay taxes because they had voted for a certain politician. They had done him and his group a political favour. It was reported here too that a lot of f.i "blind people (http://www.dedicon.nl/node/241)" that get government support.. were fraudulent. People there seem to build houses and don't add the last tile so they don't have to pay taxes over it. For the rest the house is completely finished and in use. People getting benefits that are long dead. And many more of such reports.




The last 100 years we have been through 2 Balkan wars, 2 World wars, a Greco-Turkish war, a Civil war and a Junta.
How many of those wars didn't Greece declare first ?


So we did after Civil war . There is a Greek economic miracle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_economic_miracle
There was plenty of peace and quiet during the 1990s and 2000s. Why not keep it up ?

[The Lawspeaker]

Greece cracks down on corruption


The Greek government has suspended more than 100 civil servants involved in awarding investment grants, following the arrest of two officials for taking bribes.

Thursday’s suspensions, which followed a sting operation this week by the SDOE financial police, mark a rare attempt to crack down on graft, seen as a significant obstacle to attracting foreign direct investment to Greece.

“We are going to unravel this knitted pullover of corruption,” said Anna Diamantopoulou, a former European commissioner who took over as development minister last week after a cabinet reshuffle.

Ms Diamantopoulou said the entire staff of the investment department would be replaced immediately and that their bank accounts would be examined by the SDOE.

“We appeal to potential investors to report attempts at blackmail… There will be zero tolerance in future,” she said.

Officials at the development ministry’s private investment department make a practice of demanding backhanders equal to between two and four per cent of the value of a grant application, according to Aristides Markou, a hotelier. The two unnamed officials were arrested while accepting a €120,000 cash payment in return for expediting Mr Markou’s application for a €13m grant to build a resort complex in southern Greece. They had earlier demanded €700,000, he said.

Ms Diamantopoulou said an “overriding priority” for Greece following its successful debt restructuring (http://blogs.ft.com/the-a-list/2012/03/13/the-greek-debt-drama-has-merely-been-paused-for-an-interval/)was to create a business-friendly environment for investors. She promised to contact individual companies, many of them German, to help them overcome problems with Greek bureaucracy.

Her crackdown coincided with encouraging early results in the effort to patch Greece’s notoriously leaky tax collection system. The government gathered just under €1bn in back taxes last year – more than double its target – according to a new report published by the special European Union task force created to help Greece overhaul its economy.

The task force was created last July by the European commission, the EU’s executive arm, to help Greece reform its bloated public administration and improve its use of EU development funds. It provides technical assistance through dozens of civil servants on loan from the commission and member states.

Fixing Greece’s tax collection system has emerged as one of its top priorities. The country boasts an estimated €60bn in outstanding unpaid taxes, according to the task force, of which €8bn could be collected.

In its second quarterly report, the task force called for better progress to crack down on tax evasion by wealthy individuals and large corporations. “These will be the focus of particular technical assistance in the coming months,” the report says.

On a more troubling note, it revealed that the campaign to stimulate more bank lending to Greek companies starved of liquidity – one of the most urgent complaints of the local business community – barely got off the ground last year. Of the nearly €1.3bn in schemes to support loans to small and medium-sized businesses, only €11m was disbursed in 2011.

One idea under consideration is to use EU development money to guarantee up to €500m in loans from the European Investment Bank to Greek banks, which could, in turn, lend the money to small businesses.

The task force also acknowledged the challenges of trimming Greece’s bureaucracy to improve the environment for new businesses. It found, for example, that a Greek company may have to seek approvals from 10 different ministries and 30 agencies before it could begin exporting its goods.

“There is too much red tape, too many administrative barriers,” Horst Reichenbach, head of the task force, told reporters in Athens.



Source: Financial Times (http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/b4314a2c-6ec5-11e1-afb8-00144feab49a.html#axzz1s1hkK7IQ) (March 15, 2012)

[The Lawspeaker]

It's a good thing they finally start cracking down on corrupt officials but what's the punishment they would actually face. For such stuff the authorities should financially ruin the families of those that did it until they have paid every cent they have stolen. With interest.

And then they should put them right in front of the Greek parliament. Camera's all around and make them drink the poison cup. Every drop of it.


The task force also acknowledged the challenges of trimming Greece’s bureaucracy to improve the environment for new businesses. It found, for example, that a Greek company may have to seek approvals from 10 different ministries and 30 agencies before it could begin exporting its goods.The expanding bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy. I am not sure who said that but the quote definitely comes to mind.

[jerney]

Still. You need to tell me though why Greece is going under and dragging all of Europe along with it. We had no crisis until Greece began to faulter. Then we were told to pay up, pay up, pay up, pay up. Billions have gone your way by now and now my country is in a recession.

I thought you said earlier Greece was the only country in a recession.



Do you know we will pay for our bluddy healthcare (a lot of it no longer being covered) next year ? over 750 euro's. You people still have your national health service and all.

How do you think health care in Greece works? Everyone gets it for free and pays nothing? Criterioh paid almost 5000 EUR for public health insurance last year and still isn't covered 100% and that's for a system that isn't half as good as the ones in some northern European countries. For a guy who pays "almost a few hundred euros" in taxes and thinks it's a lot, you think you'd be less critical of those who have to work and actually pay serious amounts of money to the state.

[The Lawspeaker]

I thought you said earlier Greece was the only country in a recession.

Because of Greece and the rest of the PIGS the Dutch economy is now in trouble. We are an open economy so very dependent on abroad and what the government is one series of cutbacks after the other - effect: people here spend less as well so consumption has ground to a halt. And where our tax money is going ? Brussels.. and then on to Athens, Rome etc.



I
How do you think health care in Greece works? Everyone gets it for free and pays nothing? Criterioh paid almost 5000 EUR for public health insurance last year and still isn't covered 100% and that's for a system that isn't half as good as the ones in some northern European countries. For a guy who pays "almost a few hundred euros" in taxes and thinks it's a lot, you think you'd be less critical of those who have to work and actually pay serious amounts of money to the state.
There is a Greek NHS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Greece). Then he opted out himself so there is no one to blame for people that opt out. Here the service was dismantled and privatised a long time ago and prices have been exploding over the past years.

[Romanion]

It's maybe because Dutch (in that respect a lot like the Germans) didn't sit around moping and bitching but were very quick to rebuild their country. The American investments in us proved to be sound and frugality and hard work brought this country a speedy recovery.



You have to remember the geography of the two countires, Nethrlands is tucked between france and Germany essentially and you were able to grow off of west germany and France during the cold war. Greece was alone for 50 years and immediate trade partners were scarse. Look at west Germany and East Germany, the east still lags behind the west in many ways.

[jerney]

Because of Greece and the rest of the PIGS the Dutch economy is now in trouble. We are an open economy so very dependent on abroad and what the government is one series of cutbacks after the other. And where that money is going ? Brussels.. and then on to Athens, Rome etc.

You contradict yourself again, point made.


There is a Greek NHS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Greece). Then he opted out himself so there is no one to blame for people that opt out. Here the service was dismantled and privatised a long time ago and prices have been exploding over the past years.

What the hell are you talking about? Everyone in Greece pays for public health care, end of story. You don't have an option to "opt out". If you want use private insurance then you can have a separate insurance you pay for, but everyone still has to pay for public insurance regardless. Stop looking up wikipedia pages you clearly can't comprehend and speaking about matters which you know nothing about. Go whine some more about your 800 EUR insurance while many lazy, cheating Greeks must pay 5000 EUR to a system that still doesn't cover them fully.

[Romanion]

How many of those wars didn't Greece declare first ?

?

Balkan war 1 was started by Montenegro, balkan war 2 started by Bulgaria. Greco-Turkish war started by Greece. WW1 and 2 started by other european powers. Civil was started by KKE and ELAS. So I guess two.

[The Lawspeaker]

You have to remember the geography of the two countires, Nethrlands is tucked between france and Germany essentially and you were able to grow off of west germany and France during the cold war. Greece was alone for 50 years and immediate trade partners were scarse. Look at west Germany and East Germany, the east still lags behind the west in many ways.
For most of our history having Germany and France was right next door (and Britain just overseas) was not a blessing but a curse as every war meant that we and Belgium would be the battlefield. And the times that has happened have been too numerous to write down here.

We grew during the 1950s because our brutal determination and because the Americans realised that their investments were sound. Greece's problem was the lack of modernisation (a cynical remark here to f.i denote Greek agriculture is to denote it as "lots of donkey power but not horse power". Whereas the agriculture here is just about fully automated. The same goes for industry etc.


Balkan war 1 was started by Montenegro, balkan war 2 started by Bulgaria. Greco-Turkish war started by Greece. WW1 and 2 started by other european powers. Civil was started by KKE and ELAS. So I guess two.
We started only one during the 20th century when we send troops to Indonesia to take out the same commie rebels the Americans supported.

[The Lawspeaker]

You contradict yourself again, point made.
Learn to read. Greece dragged Europe into a recession and for that only Greece is responsible.




What the hell are you talking about? Everyone in Greece pays for public health care, end of story. You don't have an option to "opt out". If you want use private insurance then you can have a separate insurance you pay for, but everyone still has to pay for public insurance regardless. Stop looking up wikipedia pages you clearly can't comprehend and speaking about matters which you know nothing about. Go whine some more about your 800 EUR insurance while many lazy, cheating Greeks must pay 5000 EUR to a system that still doesn't cover them fully.
The system here doesn't cover you fully either. F.i dental care is not covered but it has been fully privatised. A normal procedure could cost you around 300 here nowadays. It's not covered. Unlike Greece we don't have public healthcare as it was guess what: privatised. So unlike Greece we pay more for less.

So at the day.. we have few people dodging while money is spend on healthcare which has been privatised and which doesn't provide for a whole lot of services and which caused prices to shoot up (http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/11846324/___Verkwisting_bij_zorgaanbieders___.html). Whereas Greece still has a national health service where "everyone"pays (except for the kazillions of Greeks that dodge taxes) "that doesn't provide for everything".

[Romanion]

For most of our history having Germany and France was right next door (and Britain just overseas) was not a blessing but a curse as every war meant that we and Belgium would be the battlefield.

We grew during the 1950s because our brutal determination and because the Americans realised that their investments were sound. Greece's problem was the lack of modernisation (a cynical remark here to f.i denote Greek agriculture is to denote it as "lots of donkey power but not horse power". Whereas the agriculture here is just about fully automated. The same goes for industry etc.


We started only one during the 20th century when we send troops to Indonesia to take out the same commie rebels the Americans supported.

Greece's problem for the most part has been its neighborhood. Now that the iron curtain fell Greece didn't have to worry about any invasion from the north and coud make trade relations. And again, PASOK and their fairytale socialism was the root of the current problem. Just to give you some numbers, -Public spending increased rapidly under PASOK in teh 1980's– not much investment however just income redistribution. As a result nation debt increased from 6 billion drachmas in 1981 to 73 billion drachmas in 1990.

So PASOK can go die in a fire, socialism and the general left leaning in Greece is killing it. KKE and PASOK need to disband. Left = death.

[The Lawspeaker]

Greece's problem for the most part has been its neighborhood. Now that the iron curtain fell Greece didn't have to worry about any invasion from the north and coud make trade relations. And again, PASOK and their fairytale socialism was the root of the current problem. Just to give you some numbers, -Public spending increased rapidly under PASOK in teh 1980's– not much investment however just income redistribution. As a result nation debt increased from 6 billion drachmas in 1981 to 73 billion drachmas in 1990.

So PASOK can go die in a fire, socialism and the general left leaning in Greece is killing it. KKE and PASOK need to disband. Left = death.
I think that the Netherlands should actually turn to the left as the right has meant death, even more immigrants and privatisation for us. The best times in this country were under left-wing or centre-left governments (1950s, 1970s, 1990s ). The bastards that brought us here can be lined up and shot for all I care.

I think that ironically.. the best days for this country were during the Cold War. I know it's ironical but Germany was too busy rebuilding and still being suitably neutered to bother about adventuring.

[Queen B]

Still. You need to tell me though why Greece is going under and dragging all of Europe along with it. We had no crisis until Greece began to faulter.
Its not Greece's fault. To blame a small country, with a small economy for the fault of Europe's failing is wrong.
Look it easy. If you remove one piece of a Jenga that has no other piece removed, will this fail? No. But if you remove one, when it is hanging not to fall, then will do.
If you are a healthy individual, will a normal flu kill you? No.
If you are an Aids patient?
Greece's economy is insignificant , to cause such a mess, if there not already a problem.
But Greeks' are stupid enough, to make the worst moves, and now be the scapegoats of every problem.


How many civil servants were there ?
712.000.
636.000 of them are permanent.

Greece's rate is 11.4% out of working force.
Ireland is 11%, Netherlands 10,7%, Germany 10,2 %, France 21,2%, UK 17,8 %, Sweden 30% and Denmark 29%
Plus, our country spends much less % from GDP on public sector than these countries.

If we exclude our ''uniform'' public workers (police, coastguard,etc), our rates are even lower.


Do you know we will pay for our bluddy healthcare (a lot of it no longer being covered) next year ? over 750 euro's. You people still have your national health service and all.
Our national health service is not free. We do pay part of our salary for that.
Our lowest salary has become to 580 ''mixed''. Meaning that a person will get 470 as salary. those 110 euros, are kept for a reason.
If you stop working, after a year, you can't have health insurance.

My ''free' healthcare, you know what it is? that if I want to have my eyes test, I have to call, make an appointment, and get tested after 3 months.
I called for an appointment of Pneumonologist in 9th of January, and I got checked in 3rd of March. I was happy to get it after 2 months, coz its not so popular specialty, and has lesser traffic.

Do you know how much my ''free healthcare'' dad pays in medicine every month? You don't even want to know.


It is reported here in the news that entire communities didn't pay taxes because they had voted for a certain politician. They had done him and his group a political favour.
Those who don't pay taxes, are not communities, neither everyday people.They are billionaires, politicians,etc.


It was reported here too that a lot of f.i "blind people (http://www.dedicon.nl/node/241)" that get government support.. were fraudulent. People there seem to build houses and don't add the last tile so they don't have to pay taxes over it. For the rest the house is completely finished and in use. People getting benefits that are long dead. And many more of such reports.
The blind people is in my island :lol: yeah, yeah :lol:
Yes, those things happen. So does in USA, or many other countries.

What I mean is that, this is not what got Greece into mess. Goverment might spent more in some fraud benefits, but ''saves'' some, for unpaid benefits that exist in other countries.



There was plenty of peace and quiet during the 1990s and 2000s. Why not keep it up ?We are still in peace. We are just in shit.

[Romanion]

I think that the Netherlands should actually turn to the left as the right has meant death, even more immigrants and privatisation for us. The best times in this country were under left-wing or centre-left governments (1950s, 1970s, 1990s ). The bastards that brought us here can be lined up and shot for all I care.

The right promotes immigrants in the Netherlands? isn't the right mean more conservative?

Anyways, with our public debt we should never had joined the EU. Greece has only 2 right political parties and 7 left, I hate it. Wake up Greeks, socialism has failed and so has communism.

[Queen B]

How do you think health care in Greece works? Everyone gets it for free and pays nothing? Criterioh paid almost 5000 EUR for public health insurance last year and still isn't covered 100% and that's for a system that isn't half as good as the ones in some northern European countries. For a guy who pays "almost a few hundred euros" in taxes and thinks it's a lot, you think you'd be less critical of those who have to work and actually pay serious amounts of money to the state.
You don't know?
We don't work. We don't pay for healthcare. We don't pay taxes. We enjoy everything :coffee:

[Drawing-slim]

Does it hurt knowing you that people don't take kindly to you being arrogant while bankrolling most of Europe ? You didn't pay for it. We paid for your job too. Say thank you.



The Balkans has never ever been peaceful. It was peaceful for a little while when Yugoslavia was there but that didn't cover Greece. Remember the Greek Civil War, 1967, Cyprus, your little show-down with Turkey etc. etc. etc. ?Balkans have never been peaceful ever since serbs came to that region.
And serbs are just as wild siberian annimals as they were 13 hundred years ago when they came.

The only solution is declaring serbia and monkeydonia wild annimal parks states, and build some high fense amd keep em there for good, might atract alot of tourists

[The Lawspeaker]

Its not Greece's fault. To blame a small country, with a small economy for the fault of Europe's failing is wrong.
Look it easy. If you remove one piece of a Jenga that has no other piece removed, will this fail? No. But if you remove one, when it is hanging not to fall, then will do.
If you are a healthy individual, will a normal flu kill you? No.
If you are an Aids patient?
Greece's economy is insignificant , to cause such a mess, if there not already a problem.
But Greeks' are stupid enough, to make the worst moves, and now be the scapegoats of every problem.
Well.. unfortunately not so insignificant as you seem to think it is as Brussels made the Europeans cough up over 110 billion to help you and the other PIIGS. And it is probably just the early start of the fun.


712.000.
636.000 of them are permanent.
That would mean that they would have 400.000 in less then a year ? Things are looking up then. At last but I bet that most of them that are sacked are the tax collectors. :rolleyes:


Greece's rate is 11.4% out of working force.
Ireland is 11%, Netherlands 10,7%, Germany 10,2 %, France 21,2%, UK 17,8 %, Sweden 30% and Denmark 29%
Plus, our country spends much less % from GDP on public sector than these countries.
But for the money it spends it seems to be far less effective. It seems that tax evasion and inefficient bureaucracy are the real problems.


If we exclude our ''uniform'' public workers (police, coastguard,etc), our rates are even lower.
Then how come that it had over 1 million just a while ago ?



Our national health service is not free. We do pay part of our salary for that.
Our lowest salary has become to 580 ''mixed''. Meaning that a person will get 470 as salary. those 100 euros, are kept for a reason.
If you stop working, after a year, you can't have health insurance.
With the pain falling on those in the lower income range. How much falls on the shoulders of those that have higher wages ?


My ''free' healthcare, you know what it is? that if I want to have my eyes test, I have to call, make an appointment, and get tested after 3 months.
I called for an appointment of Pneumonologist in 9th of January, and I got checked in 3rd of March. I was happy to get it after 2 months, coz its not so popular specialty, and has lesser traffic.
Here we could go within a week or so but we would end up paying most of the bill still. If the insurer covers it.. that is because it could fall under the "own risk".


Do you know how much my ''free healthcare'' dad pays in medicine every month? You don't even want to know.
Actually I do.


Those who don't pay taxes, are not communities, neither everyday people.They are billionaires, politicians,etc.
The same kind of guys here get their lavish mortgage deducts and complain about a 52% tax rate while they would get most of it back in mortgage deductions.




The blind people is in my island :lol: yeah, yeah :lol:
Yes, those things happen. So does in USA, or many other countries.
The scale seems to be unlike what we have here.

What I mean is that, this is not what got Greece into mess. Goverment might spent more in some fraud benefits, but ''saves'' some, for unpaid benefits that exist in other countries.


We are still in peace. We are just in shit.
So that's you guys need all the tanks ? ;)

[The Lawspeaker]

The right promotes immigrants in the Netherlands? isn't the right mean more conservative?
Ooh they are. :rolleyes: During election time. But it was the VVD that brought in the first waves of immigrants during the 1960s ("because of the labour shortage") and then again during the 1980s ("Dutch labour was too expensive") and 1990s (during the grand coalition government) with the left-wing PvdA keeping the borders shut during the 1970s (apart from the Surinamese that it couldn't stop because they held Dutch passports).


Anyways, with our public debt we should never had joined the EU. Greece has only 2 right political parties and 7 left, I hate it. Wake up Greeks, socialism has failed and so has communism.
So has neoliberalism.

[Vasconcelos]

it was the VVD that brought in the first waves of immigrants during the 1960s ("because of the labour shortage"

Funny, you could just have promoted your country in Portugal, loads of families moved at the time (I have uncles/aunts who moved to France, Germany and Switzerland). Portuguese immigrants aren't exactly known for causing trouble :cool:

[The Lawspeaker]

Funny, you could just have promoted your country in Portugal, loads of families moved at the time (I have uncles/aunts who moved to France, Germany and Switzerland). Portuguese immigrants aren't exactly known for causing trouble :cool:
Yes.. we should have. But yes: they probably thought that Turks and Moroccans were cheaper.

[Romanion]

So has neoliberalism.

Neoloberalism is a product of free-trade agreements, we should be able to protect our home grown busniesses with tariffs. Multinational corporations should not treat countries like playgrounds.

[The Lawspeaker]

Neoloberalism is a product of free-trade agreements, we should be able to protect our home grown busniesses with tariffs. Multinational corporations should not treat countries like playgrounds.
Unfortunately the right thinks otherwise. See here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16103) the ones who can be blamed for the mass of immigrants coming to my country:

http://stukkiefietsen.com/art/12_schuld_3/g2a.JPG

http://stukkiefietsen.com/art/12_schuld_3/g1a.JPG

It's not the left that can be blamed.

[Romanion]

Well left and right parties seem to be different in the two countries. Still for Greece, the left has totaly failed to keep any sort of financial responcibility.

[The Lawspeaker]

Well left and right parties seem to be different in the two countries. Still for Greece, the left has totaly failed to keep any sort of financial responcibility.
That blame can also be put on the right here. The right here is always very quick to demonise the left but the cabinet that has spend the most money was not the left-wing Den Uyl-cabinet (1973-1977) but the right-wing Van Agt- I, II, III and Lubbers I, II, III. (his successor cabinets during the late 1970s to late 1980s - all right-wing (except for van Agt II).

http://www.sargasso.nl/wp-content/pix/financ_abs2.png

Ironically the most frugal were the centre-left cabinets of the 1950s. (Drees I, II, III)

[Romanion]

That blame can also be put on the right here. The right here is always to demonise the left but the cabinet that has spend the most money was not the left-wing Den Uyl-cabinet (1973-1977) but the right-wing Van Agt- I, II, III and Lubbers I, II, III. All right-wing (except for van Agt II).

http://www.sargasso.nl/wp-content/pix/financ_abs2.png

Again, different country different politics, if the right is the dumb parties in the Netherlands then I would vote for the left, but here it is reversed so I vote right.

Germany has set up a special overseeing commision in Athens to basically babysit its fanances for the next ten years, I hope if PASOK wins in the next election they won't let that evil party do anything stupid like it usualy does.

[Vasconcelos]

Guess what year the Portuguese Estado Novo regime fell and democracy was implemented based on this graph:


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-FnDOBBVERlg/TyrhLK4YyDI/AAAAAAAABjI/ZDBNAuukRIM/s1600/EvolucaoSaldoOrcamental-Portugal.PNG


:rofl:

[The Lawspeaker]

Again, different country different politics, if the right is the dumb parties in the Netherlands then I would vote for the left, but here it is reversed so I vote right.
I will probably vote for the far-left this time as the centre-left has become .. well useless. Just another bunch of neoliberals.


Germany has set up a special overseeing commision in Athens to basically babysit its fanances for the next ten years, I hope if PASOK wins in the next election they won't let that evil party do anything stupid like it usualy does.
Maybe having them on a strict leash could reform them.


Guess what year the Portuguese Estado Novo regime fell and democracy was implemented based on this graph:


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-FnDOBBVERlg/TyrhLK4YyDI/AAAAAAAABjI/ZDBNAuukRIM/s1600/EvolucaoSaldoOrcamental-Portugal.PNG


:rofl:

Are sure those figures are accurate.. ? ;)

[Vasconcelos]

We've all had irresponsible governments, some more than others, the problem is that as long as things stay the way they are nothing is going to change as it should.
Sometimes it takes a small catastrophe to get things in place.

[Romanion]

Guess what year the Portuguese Estado Novo regime fell and democracy was implemented based on this graph:


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-FnDOBBVERlg/TyrhLK4YyDI/AAAAAAAABjI/ZDBNAuukRIM/s1600/EvolucaoSaldoOrcamental-Portugal.PNG


:rofl:

1974?

Its how democracy and irresponcible politicians work. They promise the citizens higher wages/benifits/ect if they are voted in compaired to teh other party. The people always want more so they vote them in and they fulfill theri promises regardless if the country can afford it or not. The only way to counter this is informed citizens with knowledge of basic economics. Democracy weakness is an uneducated public.

[The Lawspeaker]

1974?

Its how democracy and irresponcible politicians work. They promise the citizens higher wages/benifits/ect if they are voted in compaired to teh other party. The people always want more so they vote them in and they fulfill theri promises regardless if the country can afford it or not. The only way to counter this is informed citizens with knowledge of basic economics. Democracy weakness is an uneducated public.
It's funny because here parliamentary democracy has always worked so maybe it works for one country but not for the other. It reminds of what DS'70 (a no longer existing party) had to say about it in their party election song during the early 1970s. So maybe back in the day the electorate was still a bit sensible.

Roughly translated:

We want to be able to breathe
We want a return to normal.
We want to be able to live (to have a house)
with prices and with wages
that do not chase each other in a wild "round dance"

[Queen B]

Well.. unfortunately not so insignificant as you seem to think it is as Brussels made the Europeans cough up over 110 billion to help you and the other PIIGS. And it is probably just the early start of the fun.

See? You already included the other Piigs. But you blamed Greece.


That would mean that they would have 400.000 in less then a year ? Things are looking up then. At last but I bet that most of them that are sacked are the tax collectors. :rolleyes:

Its actually only 50.000 less. If you have gotten propaganda numbers from your TV, its not my problem. The rates are taken from a collection of data of the last 3 decades , from 17 countries .


But for the money it spends it seems to be far less effective. It seems that tax evasion and inefficient bureaucracy are the real problems.

Bearucracy is a problem, true.
But there are more problems that cause the crisis
1) Greece's getting the Olympic games->giving projects to those that bribed, and not to the best candidate.
Who's there. Siemens (German company)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Siemens_scandal
2) Greece's spending tones of money in military?
Who sells military equipement to Greece?
Our allies, Germany and France.
3) Corrupted politicians. ((that goes 1) as well). People that will give public projects NOT to the best candidate, neither to the CHEAPEST one, but to the ones that will bribe.
4) Immigration. Again, thank our dear EU friends for helping us.
5) Things that we'd never thing will happen, yet did, and cause billions of loss.
http://hellasfrappe.blogspot.com/2012/03/mega-news-prosecutor-determined-to-slap.html



With the pain falling on those in the lower income range. How much falls on the shoulders of those that have higher wages ?

In a salary of 900something Euros ''mixed'', you get in hand 710.etc.
Its in analogy.


Here we could go within a week or so but we would end up paying most of the bill still.You pay what you get. We pay and we get nothing.
I have 2 pneumonias in my life, and if I had a bad flu, and waited 2 months to get tested, I would be probably be dead, or hospitilized for a long time.
I wouldn't go to public health, but instead pay a couple of hundreds euros to a private doctor.


So that's you guys need all the tanks ? ;)
No, we actually need it because our good allies, didn't protect us of having Greek soldiers killed in Imia,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imia/Kardak
neither having Greek soldiers dying in Karpathos,too
(use google translator)
http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9A%CF%89%CE%BD%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%84%C E%AF%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF%82_%CE%97%CE%BB%CE%B9%CE%AC%CE %BA%CE%B7%CF%82
Neither to have Turkish military ship reaching almost Sounion.

You know that troika asked MORE salary cuts, but NO military spending cuts? :rolleyes:

[Romanion]

I study history, but I've talk to Graduates of Economics from the University of Athens who have absolutly no idea about responcible economics, it's scary stuff. Politics in the education system in Greece is a big problem as well. Professors and teachers give you a higher or lower mark depending on what political philosophies you follow. Corruption in the education system is rampant.

[Queen B]

. Corruption in the education system is rampant.
Don't even get me started on that :mad:

[Romanion]

See? You already included the other Piigs. But you blamed Greece.

Its actually only 50.000 less. If you have gotten propaganda numbers from your TV, its not my problem. The rates are taken from a collection of data of the last 3 decades , from 17 countries .

Bearucracy is a problem, true.
But there are more problems that cause the crisis
1) Greece's getting the Olympic games->giving projects to those that bribed, and not to the best candidate.
Who's there. Siemens (German company)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Siemens_scandal
2) Greece's spending tones of money in military?
Who sells military equipement to Greece?
Our allies, Germany and France.
3) Corrupted politicians. ((that goes 1) as well). People that will give public projects NOT to the best candidate, neither to the CHEAPEST one, but to the ones that will bribe.
4) Immigration. Again, thank our dear EU friends for helping us.
5) Things that we'd never thing will happen, yet did, and cause billions of loss.
http://hellasfrappe.blogspot.com/2012/03/mega-news-prosecutor-determined-to-slap.html


In a salary of 900something Euros ''mixed'', you get in hand 710.etc.
Its in analogy.
You pay what you get. We pay and we get nothing.
I have 2 pneumonias in my life, and if I had a bad flu, and waited 2 months to get tested, I would be probably be dead, or hospitilized for a long time.
I wouldn't go to public health, but instead pay a couple of hundreds euros to a private doctor.

No, we actually need it because our good allies, didn't protect us of having Greek soldiers killed in Imia,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imia/Kardak
neither having Greek soldiers dying in Karpathos,too
(use google translator)
http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9A%CF%89%CE%BD%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%84%C E%AF%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF%82_%CE%97%CE%BB%CE%B9%CE%AC%CE %BA%CE%B7%CF%82
Neither to have Turkish military ship reaching almost Sounion.

You know that troika asked MORE salary cuts, but NO military spending cuts? :rolleyes:

Greece actually has a budget surplus right now if you don't account for the "bail out" money and interest. This is why we shouldn't pay anything back anymore, IMF can kiss my ass and the ECB should right off the interest payments.

[Vasconcelos]

Don't even get me started on that :mad:

Hey, at least you manage to get people in jail, we don't..

We've had a corruption case (named Caso Portucale) going on for 6 years and in the end everyone was free to go. No one EVER goes to jail for corruption in Portugal. I don't know if it's more humiliating or furstrating.

[The Lawspeaker]

See? You already included the other Piigs. But you blamed Greece.
Greece is widely used here as the classical (no pun intended) example of the country that is causing us the biggest mess.


Its actually only 50.000 less. If you have gotten propaganda numbers from your TV, its not my problem. The rates are taken from a collection of data of the last 3 decades , from 17 countries .
Here, even in the biggest newspapers, it was referred to as 1 million.


Bearucracy is a problem, true.
But there are more problems that cause the crisis
1) Greece's getting the Olympic games->giving projects to those that bribed, and not to the best candidate.
Who's there. Siemens (German company)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Siemens_scandal
2) Greece's spending tones of money in military?
Who sells military equipement to Greece?
Our allies, Germany and France.

3) Corrupted politicians. ((that goes 1) as well). People that will give public projects NOT to the best candidate, neither to the CHEAPEST one, but to the ones that will bribe.
And then to think that now there is a substantial lobby here in the Netherlands to bring in the 2028 Olympics because we held the Olympics in 1928. I remember reading about the millions spend in bribing and advertisement during the 1980s in order to get the 1992 Olympics. Which went to Barcelona, btw. They just bribed them with even more.

So Germany, France and the Netherlands are spending money on Greece and Greece is spending that money on German and French hardware. Sweet irony. Talk about providing lavish money for corrupt officials and in underhand subsidies for German and French companies.



4) Immigration. Again, thank our dear EU friends for helping us.
5) Things that we'd never thing will happen, yet did, and cause billions of loss.
http://hellasfrappe.blogspot.com/2012/03/mega-news-prosecutor-determined-to-slap.html
I have heard about the immigration crisis on the Greek border but you're surely not letting them in, I hope ? Then what more rubbish did happen ?



In a salary of 900something Euros ''mixed'', you get in hand 710.etc.
It wouldn't be too different here. Our wages are so high .. on paper.


You pay what you get. We pay and we get nothing.
Same here.


I have 2 pneumonias in my life, and if I had a bad flu, and waited 2 months to get tested, I would be probably be dead, or hospitilized for a long time.
I wouldn't go to public health, but instead pay a couple of hundreds euros to a private doctor.
Because it is a completely inept service or just woefully underfunded ?


No, we actually need it because our good allies, didn't protect us of having Greek soldiers killed in Imia,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imia/Kardak
neither having Greek soldiers dying in Karpathos,too
(use google translator)
http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9A%CF%89%CE%BD%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%84%C E%AF%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF%82_%CE%97%CE%BB%CE%B9%CE%AC%CE %BA%CE%B7%CF%82
Neither to have Turkish military ship reaching almost Sounion.
That's the stuff you never hear about here. Here it is just being reported: "we have such and such amount on bailing out Greece.. and btw.. they bought tanks from it". (visualise the grumbling Dutch and pissed off Germans behind their TV-screens).


You know that troika asked MORE salary cuts, but NO military spending cuts? :rolleyes:
Because they know about this ?

[Romanion]

Don't even get me started on that :mad:

Please do :D I like a good story.

[The Lawspeaker]

I study history, but I've talk to Graduates of Economics from the University of Athens who have absolutly no idea about responcible economics, it's scary stuff. Politics in the education system in Greece is a big problem as well. Professors and teachers give you a higher or lower mark depending on what political philosophies you follow. Corruption in the education system is rampant.
You're kidding me ? A graduated economist... not having the faintest idea about.. economics ?

So you're telling me that if someone for instance follows a political ideology of any sort or just happens to be the son of a mate of a former lover of his professor he gets the better marks ?

[Romanion]

You're kidding me ? A graduated economist... not having the faintest idea about.. economics ?

So you're telling me that if someone for instance follows a political ideology of any sort or just happens to be the son of a mate of a former lover of his professor he gets the better marks ?

Pretty much! Gotta love it! (sarcasm)

[Queen B]

Greece actually has a budget surplus right now if you don't account for the "bail out" money and interest. This is why we shouldn't pay anything back anymore, IMF can kiss my ass and the ECB should right off the interest payments.
True.
Greece's ''bail outs'' go directly to pay out loans and interest (yes, they loan us money, to pay back the loans :lol: ) plus part of Greek budget,too.

[Romanion]

Again, why did this occur PA fucking SOK with their education "reforms" and stacking any sort of govermental position, whether its in education or beurocracy, with their own members. PASOK needs to die in a giant fire.

[The Lawspeaker]

Pretty much! Gotta love it! (sarcasm)
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/019/8/6/da_fuq_by_juliawestwick-d4mud8t.png

Err.. I would say that your education system is in need of a purge.. Stalin style. "mumbles something about taking teachers outside, giving them a lead overdose and appointing the right ones in their place".

Disclaimer. I am not advocating violence but I wouldn't protest at all if the Greeks actually pulled such a stunt one day.

[Romanion]

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/019/8/6/da_fuq_by_juliawestwick-d4mud8t.png

Err.. I would say that your education system is in need of a purge.. Stalin style. "mumbles something about taking teachers outside, giving them a lead overdose and appointing the right ones in their place".

Disclaimer. I am not advocating violence but I wouldn't protest at all if the Greeks actually pulled such a stunt one day.

Greece needs a giant reform, I'm talking about digging upt he foundations and making it right. Different political model, different education model, different taxation model, different military model. Thank you PASOK and your "reforms" 30 years ago for today.

[The Lawspeaker]

Greece needs a giant reform, I'm talking about digging upt he foundations and making it right. Different political model, different education model, different taxation model, different military model. Thank you PASOK and your "reforms" 30 years ago for today.
But what kind of education, taxation and military model do you suggest ? Our system for the most seems to be generally sound. It needs some reform here and there and some common sense back in the ranks but the system itself seems generally sound.

[Romanion]

But what kind of education, taxation and military model do you suggest ? Our system for the most seems to be generally sound. It needs some reform here and there and some common sense back in the ranks but the system itself seems generally sound.

Well for taxation I talked about before implimenting a flat tax for everyone to make tax evasion almost impossible. No more income tax, a small and efficeint beurocracy with little social services = less taxes for the people. Government should only deal with national issues such as defence, international trade and diplomacy, education and ecological issues. University should not be totaly founded by the government.

Education reforms, make it illegal to mix politics with the school system. Anyone caught doing this or commiting patronage should be fired and fined.

Military model: get rid of the compusory military service, its a waste of money. Get a smaller more learn army with better equiptment. Invest in our own arms manufacturers so we don't have no buy everything from Germany and France.

Political reforms: I talked about hte American system with "archonship". Being able to vote for the condidate and the Prime minister stops orligaries from forming in the government and the peopel have more say its its leaders. This will also force better debates between politicians.

[Queen B]

Greece is widely used here as the classical (no pun intended) example of the country that is causing us the biggest mess.

Scapegoat. Found it, blame it.


Here, even in the biggest newspapers, it was referred to as 1 million.

Propaganda.


And then to think that now there is a substantial lobby here in the Netherlands to bring in the 2028 Olympics because we held the Olympics in 1928. I remember reading about the millions spend in bribing and advertisement during the 1980s in order to get the 1992 Olympics. Which went to Barcelona, btw. They just bribed them with even more.

see? We got it though.


So Germany, France and the Netherlands are spending money on Greece and Greece is spending that money on German and French hardware. Sweet irony. Talk about providing lavish money for corrupt officials and in underhand subsidies for German and French companies.
I don't know about Netherlands. But Germany, ''gains'' more than it spends to Greece.
Military equipemt, projects like that with Siemens...
Recently, they signed solar-energy deals with Greece, with Germany takin advantage from that.
Ring any bells?


I have heard about the immigration crisis on the Greek border but you're surely not letting them in, I hope ? Then what more rubbish did happen ?

The Albanian influx was our fault.
For the non-European influx, then, say some thanx to your dear friends Turks.
They enter, dreaming to go to other european countries, of course our other friends, don't get them,they are sent back to they country they enter EU, so all those non-european immigrants, stay here.


Because it is a completely inept service or just woefully underfunded ?
Both.


That's the stuff you never hear about here. Here it is just being reported: "we have such and such amount on bailing out Greece.. and btw.. they bought tanks from it". (visualise the grumbling Dutch and pissed off Germans behind their TV-screens).
Thats why I am talking about Propaganda.


Because they know about this ?
Because it suits them? Do you actually think that Troika wants Greece to get out of the crisis?

Please do :D I like a good story.
I never supported a political party in University. In fact, I had close friends, in all 3 ''big'' parties, so noone could ever tell what I am voting or not.

Once, a ''leader'' of a party, came to me
Our dialog:

-Hey Dandelion, do you want to pass ''Automation Control Systems''?
-Sure, do you know the ''sos'' subjects?
-No, I m not talking about this
-so?
- Elections are coming. You can vote for me, and ask some friends to do this as well, and I'll guarantee this for you
- How will you know that I voted for you?
- You will vote for the ones I ask you. If we see 5-6 papers with the same vote combinations, we ll know that you did.
...
blabla
...
- I m not going to buy my degree. If I pass the lesson, I ll do it due to my knowledge, and not my vote.

Long story short, I got 10/10 in that lesson.(I was a nerd) Turns out that the teacher himself, didn't know a thing, but a ''higher''-rated teacher, did all the deal.

[The Lawspeaker]

Well for taxation I talked about before implimenting a flat tax for everyone to make tax evasion almost impossible. No more income tax, a small and efficeint beurocracy with little social services = less taxes for the people. Government should only deal with national issues such as defence, international trade and diplomacy, education and ecological issues. University should not be totaly founded by the government.
I think that we should keep the income tax and the social services but reserve those only for the Dutch themselves. It should of course be coupled to a kind of Civilian Conservation Corps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Conservation_Corps) (if one is healthy). Foreigners that lose their job and who are not married to a native-born citizen get naught and should be deported. For the rest we should see how we can make government even more efficient and sometimes that means investing.


Education reforms, make it illegal to mix politics with the school system. Anyone caught doing this or commiting patronage should be fired and fined.
I agree. I have no problem with having political debates during social sciences class but education should be free of politics.


Military model: get rid of the compusory military service, its a waste of money. Get a smaller more learn army with better equiptment. Invest in our own arms manufacturers so we don't have no buy everything from Germany and France.
Since we have suspended the draft young people have become trouble. So I think that we should reinstate it (but in a much reduced form). And apart from that: we should invest as well in building up our own armament industry.


Political reforms: I talked about hte American system with "archonship". Being able to vote for the condidate and the Prime minister stops orligaries from forming in the government and the peopel have more say its its leaders. This will also force better debates between politicians.
This is something we should look at too: we should be able to vote for prime ministers, mayors and the Queen's Commissioners out in the province and outlaw party allegiances in those positions as it would nepotism dead in it's tracks. Because now those positions just serve as "sanctuaries" for failed politicians.

[Romanion]

Every country should have its own weapons industry, if you rely on other countries for your weapons, you essentially put your soverignty into their hands.

[The Lawspeaker]

Scapegoat. Found it, blame it.
So you're sure that our press is flat-out lying about it ?


Propaganda.
Well.. there seems to be quite a bit of corruption and nepotism down there though but you're sure that they were lying about the 1 million figure ?


see? We got it though.
I am glad we didn't. I feel sorry for London.


I don't know about Netherlands. But Germany, ''gains'' more than it spends to Greece.
Our recession indicates that.. hmm we aren't gaining from it.


Military equipemt, projects like that with Siemens...
Recently, they signed solar-energy deals with Greece, with Germany takin advantage from that.
Ring any bells?
Seems like a good time to be German.


The Albanian influx was our fault.
For the non-European influx, then, say some thanx to your dear friends Turks.
They enter, dreaming to go to other european countries, of course our other friends, don't get them,they are sent back to they country they enter EU, so all those non-european immigrants, stay here.
I thought we chucked them out of the European Union area ? Apparently they are being chucked to Greece instead. Nice, cheap and fraudulent. Are you sure that the one who arranged this deal isn't Italian or one of yours ? (;))



Both.
It needs reform. Real soon. Just don't take our system because you will regret it.


Thats why I am talking about Propaganda.
Very effective too. Greek has become synonymous with laziness and corruption here. If I would call someone Greek here I would probably get a dirty look. But then again: the EU and our own government are hated and reviled as well- along with the rest of the "Club Med" (our cynical nickname for the other PIIGS)


Because it suits them? Do you actually think that Troika wants Greece to get out of the crisis?
It would get their heads chopped off if they didn't. That is.. if the Greeks get serious for once and actually storm parliament for once.


I never supported a political party in University. In fact, I had close friends, in all 3 ''big'' parties, so noone could ever tell what I am voting or not.

Once, a ''leader'' of a party, came to me
Our dialog:

-Hey Dandelion, do you want to pass ''Automation Control Systems''?
-Sure, do you know the ''sos'' subjects?
-No, I m not talking about this
-so?
- Elections are coming. You can vote for me, and ask some friends to do this as well, and I'll guarantee this for you
- How will you know that I voted for you?
- You will vote for the ones I ask you. If we see 5-6 papers with the same vote combinations, we ll know that you did.
...
blabla
...
- I m not going to buy my degree. If I pass the lesson, I ll do it due to my knowledge, and not my vote.

Long story short, I got 10/10 in that lesson.(I was a nerd) Turns out that the teacher himself, didn't know a thing, but a ''higher''-rated teacher, did all the deal.
That would be unthinkable here. "knocks on wood".


Every country should have its own weapons industry, if you rely on other countries for your weapons, you essentially put your soverignty into their hands.
I think 1940 taught us that. And the Americans later on told us to forget about that lesson.

[Romanion]

I think 1940 taught us that. And the Americans later on told us to forget about that lesson.

NATO needs to go, and an EU wide substitute needs to take its place. NATO is an American impirialist arm, and Europe doesn't need it.

[The Lawspeaker]

NATO needs to go, and an EU wide substitute needs to take its place. NATO is an American impirialist arm, and Europe doesn't need it.
I would prefer to aim for neutrality but something like the now-defunct WEU (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_Union) might work too.

[Onur]

Yes,a hypothetical war between Greece and Turkey will be fatal for the whole region.It is worthless economically wise as well.:coffee:
I better respond to you with a quote from their former PM Costas Simitis. He confessed that the arms race with Turkey is pointless because no matter what, Greece gets obliterated in just 2 hours against Turkish army. He said that in a public conference in Germany;
C. Simitis, 23.1.2012, Berlin, Full Speech - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fNzXnHNenc)


Turkey-Greece war would last 2 hours, ex-Greek PM says
Former Greek Prime Minister Kostas Simitis has said that Greece's arms race with Turkey would give the country no advantage in a possible confrontation with Ankara deeming it a waste of economic resources of the crisis-torn country, saying Greece would only last two hours in the event of a war with Turkey. "Should a war with Turkey erupt, Greece's armament would be of no use. Such a war will be fought for two or three hours," Simitis claimed at a conference organized by the Germany-based Heinrich Boll Foundation in Berlin on Tuesday as reported by Greek media. Greece, the country with the highest military expenditure-to-gross domestic product (GDP) ratio in Europe, has in a way become a victim of its arms race with Turkey. Despite claiming that Turkey tries to provoke the existing conflicts between the two countries, Simitis said: "Greece should not waste its resources on armament; it should instead turn to the EU to resolve any conflicts. The EU should be a guarantor for Greece's external security."

http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/sections/politics/2012/01/26/visualizza_new.html_69998579.html



the 300+ rule under Islamic savages brought Greece to its knees and drained it of all its potential.

It will never recover.
Another typical Balkan mental illness.

If thats the case and if Greece is bankrupt today because of the Ottoman rule 200+ years ago then how come we an industry powerhouses like Germany and Japan today? Germany has been demolished by the ally bombs in 1940s and two nuclear bombs has been exploded in two different cities in Japan but look at where the reached today in economical level after few decades.

So, i wonder what Turks done to Greece 200+ years ago, so they cant recover even today. It should be worse than nuclear bombs, right? !!!

[The Lawspeaker]

I better respond to you with a quote from their former PM Costas Simitis. He confessed that the arms race with Turkey is pointless because no matter what, Greece gets obliterated in just 2 hours against Turkish army. He said that in a public conference in Germany;
C. Simitis, 23.1.2012, Berlin, Full Speech - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fNzXnHNenc)

I suppose Simitis has a point: it's not like we could ever dream of beating Jerry if he invaded us again (not with this army.. not even in the 1980s. We could have tied him down for a week during the 1980s.. that's it. As our army corps was designed to stop 9 Russki divisions for a week). The only thing we can is build up a strong defence and hope that enough jerries get killed or wounded in the time it takes for Britain or France to come to our assistance.

[Queen B]

So you're sure that our press is flat-out lying about it ?
Yes.


Well.. there seems to be quite a bit of corruption and nepotism down there though but you're sure that they were lying about the 1 million figure ?

The rates I gave you are from the ''reasearch center of competitiveness of the European council'' ( I hope I didn't kill it in translation), that collected date from the last 30 years.
The 2010 civil cervant's census, has similar results, so no, the figure is as such.


I am glad we didn't. I feel sorry for London.

If London has already the buildings to host Olympics, will have no problem. We did, cause we have to build almost everything.
So, we had to give those projects to be done.


I thought we chucked them out of the European Union area ? Apparently they are being chucked to Greece instead. Nice, cheap and fraudulent. Are you sure that the one who arranged this deal isn't Italian or one of yours ? (;))

Our coastguard have found several times drowned illegal immigrants near Greek islands , that are near Turkey.
I ll try to find some videos, of examples.
There were some cases of Italians,too, but the illegals that enter Greece thru Ionians are very very few.


Very effective too. Greek has become synonymous with laziness and corruption here. If I would call someone Greek here I would probably get a dirty look. But then again: the EU and our own government are hated and reviled as well- along with the rest of the "Club Med" (our cynical nickname for the other PIIGS)

The last thing that Greeks are, is lazy.Quite the opossite.
Corrupted, well, not entirely wrong, but neither entirely true either.


It would get their heads chopped off if they didn't.

If they really wanted Greece out of crisis, they would NEVER ask for such measures.
A country to get out of crisis need growth. With such measures, will never be achieved.


That would be unthinkable here. "knocks on wood".

Lucky you.

[The Lawspeaker]

Yes.
They have been successful then.


The rates I gave you are from the ''reasearch center of competitiveness of the European council'' ( I hope I didn't kill it in translation), that collected date from the last 30 years.
The 2010 civil cervant's census, has similar results, so no, the figure is as such.
I wonder whether the 1 million figure started,


If London has already the buildings to host Olympics, will have no problem. We did, cause we have to build almost everything.
So, we had to give those projects to be done.
I am not sure how they are doing it but Greece had to build everything.


Our coastguard have found several times drowned illegal immigrants near Greek islands , that are near Turkey.
I ll try to find some videos, of examples.
There were some cases of Italians,too, but the illegals that enter Greece thru Ionians are very very few.
Sometimes.. I think that we should send some navy ships there and just give them a license to open fire.


The last thing that Greeks are, is lazy.Quite the opossite.
Corrupted, well, not entirely wrong, but neither entirely true either.
Well that example you gave me from your professor would not happen here...


If they really wanted Greece out of crisis, they would NEVER ask for such measures.
A country to get out of crisis need growth. With such measures, will never be achieved.
Agreed. The Dutch Central Statistics Agency (CBS) thinks that the current cutbacks here are destroying the Dutch economy - I think they are right. We can see it on a daily basis.


Lucky you.
For now.

[Queen B]

I wonder whether the 1 million figure started,
Easy. Estimations -> Exaggerated estimations -> a bit of salt.
Its not hard to add 300.000 in 700.000 .
Its not like they said a number 4 times more.


Well that example you gave me from your professor would not happen here...
Well, Corruption exists. I said. Still, we are not the synonymous of it. There are far worst corrupted countries.
Even South Korea has high rates of corruption :lol: (not like Greece, but who would have thought"?)


Agreed. The Dutch Central Statistics Agency (CBS) thinks that the current cutbacks here are destroying the Dutch economy - I think they are right. We can see it on a daily basis.
You know what? In order to get thru the crisis, we have to have economic growth.
Will salary cuts, same/higher cost of life and higher taxes will do this?
How will economic growth will be achieved when there is no money circulation?
How will economic growth will be achieved, if every small business have to be closed because noone buys?
How will economic growth will be achieved if the unemployment is getting higher and higher?

[The Lawspeaker]

Easy. Estimations -> Exaggerated estimations -> a bit of salt.
Its not hard to add 300.000 in 700.000 .
Its not like they said a number 4 times more.
And a pissed off public ? Income assured.


Well, Corruption exists. I said. Still, we are not the synonymous of it. There are far worst corrupted countries.
Even South Korea has high rates of corruption :lol: (not like Greece, but who would have thought"?)
South Korea ? Who would have thought..


You know what? In order to get thru the crisis, we have to have economic growth.
Will salary cuts, same/higher cost of life and higher taxes will do this?
How will economic growth will be achieved when there is no money circulation?
How will economic growth will be achieved, if every small business have to be closed because noone buys?
How will economic growth will be achieved if the unemployment is getting higher and higher?
There can be a long answer (something that any economist can give you) or a short answer given by a layman with common sense. I am not an economist but a layman with common sense and my answer would be that economic growth would be.. a nice dream that will never make it off the drawing board.

[SilverKnight]

Nai, nai, panta exeis dikio, paidi mou LOL!

VTXl-A2HFZo

Wait.


Isn't Greece and countries surrounding it in great economic despair or as we also call it economic shithole ? Why not focus on more important issues first..

At this point, Europe should be more united, not devided.

[Queen B]

South Korea ? Who would have thought.. If someone have said me of which countries you think have the lowest corruption, I d say Scandinavian and Japan,Korea.


There can be a long answer (something that any economist can give you) or a short answer given by a layman with common sense. I am not an economist but a layman with common sense and my answer would be that economic growth would be.. a nice dream that will never make it off the drawing board.
I m not an economist, and in fact, i have a little knowledge about economics. But that's common sense. If money is not circulated, there are no jobs, then...

[Romanion]

[QUOTE]I better respond to you with a quote from their former PM Costas Simitis. He confessed that the arms race with Turkey is pointless because no matter what, Greece gets obliterated in just 2 hours against Turkish army. He said that in a public conference in Germany;
C. Simitis, 23.1.2012, Berlin, Full Speech - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fNzXnHNenc)


He never said that, he said a war would last 2-3 hours before the large powers get involved.

Turkey isn't a superpower like you think it is, keep on dreaming.

[The Lawspeaker]

If someone have said me of which countries you think have the lowest corruption, I d say Scandinavian and Japan,Korea.
One would expect that but it's probably just less blatant and more hidden than in Greece.


I m not an economist, and in fact, i have a little knowledge about economics. But that's common sense. If money is not circulated, there are no jobs, then...
Well.. of course people can go spend money but those are loans. And that ball will only float until the air runs out.

[Romanion]

You know what? In order to get thru the crisis, we have to have economic growth.
Will salary cuts, same/higher cost of life and higher taxes will do this?
How will economic growth will be achieved when there is no money circulation?
How will economic growth will be achieved, if every small business have to be closed because noone buys?
How will economic growth will be achieved if the unemployment is getting higher and higher?

Dandi, one of the basic priciples of market capitalism is that it regulates itself. There hasn't been money in Greece for a long time, the money we did have were loans taken out to pay for other loans which were used to pay for the large state. We really did have a subsidised artificial economy. Now we are seeing Greece going through a severe devaluation and will stop when it reaches the actual level of our economy. A situation like this doesn't build over one night, it literally took 30 years since the 80s.

[alb0zfinest]

[QUOTE=Onur;837850]

He never said that, he said a war would last 2-3 hours before the large powers get involved.

[B]Turkey isn't a superpower like you think it is, keep on dreaming.

Military wise Turkey is ranked 6th in the world.

[rashka]

The Balkans has never ever been peaceful.

Right. For example the biggest battle of the 3rd century smack in the middle of the Balkans between the Romans and the Goths. It was called Battle of Naissus where about 30,000 to 50,000 Goths were killed. The battle of Naissus came about as a result of two massive invasions of "Scythian" tribes (as our sources[who?] anachronistically call them) into Roman territory between 267 and 269.

http://worldwizzy.com/learn/index.php?title=Battle_of_Naissus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Naissus


And the largest battle of the 4th century took place in the eastern Balkans. This time a Roman civil war- between East and West. 34,000 dead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Adrianople_(324)

And then in 378 in the same place yet another battle between the Goths and the Romans, up to 20,000 losses on one side.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Adrianople

Adrianople has seen a lot of battles. Now it belongs to Turkey.
http://www.thenagain.info/webchron/mediterranean/Adrianople.gif

[Romanion]

[QUOTE=Romanion;837925]

Military wise Turkey is ranked 6th in the world.

And it still can't do anything.

[alb0zfinest]

[QUOTE=alb0zfinest;838048]

And it still can't do anything.

But of course the Greek army can :rolleyes2:

[Flintlocke]

Listen to dandelion, and don't make her sad or I'll kick your asses. ;)

[Onur]

Turkey isn't a superpower like you think it is, keep on dreaming.
Yes, Turkey is not a superpower but it has enough power to erase your fake neo-hellenic nation`s existence from earth in less than 48h.


And it still can't do anything
What you want from us to do? Turkey never attacks anyone unless it gets attacked by others. If you wanna see what we can do, try to create another stupid scene like Kardak/Imia, or Cyprus as in 1974, then see what we can do.

I have to remind you that Greece invaded Cyprus with 20.000+ junta soldiers in 1974, also add 10.000s of Cypriot EOKA terrorists to them but Turkish army captured nearly whole Cyprus in less than 48h and your junta fascists and EOKA terrorists just ran away like chickens. In any case of war between Greeks and Turks, it wouldn't be any different than what we saw in Kardak or Cyprus because you are no match to us and you will never be.

[Romanion]

Yes, Turkey is not a superpower but it has enough power to erase your fake neo-hellenic nation`s existence from earth in less than 48h.


What you want from us to do? Turkey never attacks anyone unless it gets attacked by others. If you wanna see what we can do, try to create another stupid scene like Kardak/Imia, or Cyprus as in 1974, then see what we can do.

I have to remind you that Greece invaded Cyprus with 20.000+ junta soldiers in 1974, also add 10.000s of Cypriot EOKA terrorists to them but Turkish army captured nearly whole Cyprus in less than 48h and your junta fascists and EOKA terrorists just ran away like chickens. In any case of war between Greeks and Turks, it wouldn't be any different than what we saw in Kardak or Cyprus because you are no match to us and you will never be.

I expect you to do what America tells you to do. These Turkish military threats are all hot water. Greece Junta sent in 2,000 soldiers not 20,000, and Turkey was the one to start to Imia crisis you dumb pomak. Turkish military is all size no brains, can't even stop PKK.

Greece needs to declare its EEZ and drill, and if Turkey tries to interfere its will be bye bye for you.

[Vasconcelos]

Yes, Turkey is not a superpower but it has enough power to erase your fake neo-hellenic nation`s existence from earth in less than 48h.

You grossly misunderestimate Greek military, good first step to get humiliated if shit hits the fan.

[Romanion]

You grossly misunderestimate Greek military, good first step to get humiliated if shit hits the fan.

This is how we won the Euro is 2004, people always underestimate the Greeks, sorry to bring that up to you ;)

[Queen B]

Listen to dandelion, and don't make her sad or I'll kick your asses. ;)

:D Hehe, thanx sweetheart!

[Nurzat]

Atrox, I pay way more than you in taxes, and I work more than you.
I am not a billionaire to avoid taxes. In case you haven't learn, its THEM who evade taxation, not me or AKis, or any other normal/average Greek, so stop talking shit.

i doubt you pay more than me, both as amount and percentage. millionaires are skipping taxes all over the balkans, it's true, but average greek seems to be prolific in this too, as shown by the german reports (see the section of the social programs and the frauds within)

[kabeiros]

Sorry, man but you don't own your own country. A man in debt owns nothing. If I would have bought a car on the never never I don't own that car: my creditor does. If you don't like it then you shouldn't have accepted our help and since you're using our money it is abuse since my government did not give you permission to use it in such a way. So for short: I believe that my government should force your government to pay it back with a steep interest rate as a fine for your countries abuse of our tax money.
We are not using your money Tuan and you know it. Not even one euro comes into Greece, they go immediately to the bankers. I thought you would know better :(

[kabeiros]

I believe that an added penalty for Greece in the form of a higher interest or an immediate recall is more than warranted. There are several politicians on Facebook. I will send them the article and let's see whether it makes it into the lower house.

I have not seen any of this posts of you. EU has not recognised FYROM as Macedonia, not yet at least. We shall never accept them as Macedonians, deal with it (by the way you SHOULD expell us from EU and the euro, it would be beneficial for us)

[The Lawspeaker]

I have not seen any of this posts of you. EU has not recognised FYROM as Macedonia, not yet at least. We shall never accept them as Macedonians, deal with it (by the way you SHOULD expell us from EU and the euro, it would be beneficial for us)

Actually it wouldn't be because your debt would be the same and it would have to be paid for in expensive euro's. And worse: Greece would lose the Common Market (so.. no exports). That is the problem: whether Greece does or does not recognise Macedonia is not important.

What is important is that such actions are not carried out with Dutch taxpayer money. Because Dutch and German money is being used to prop up your country and not to assist you in fighting out dubious little wars with a neighbouring country.

[AkisGreece]

Actually it wouldn't be because your debt would be the same and it would have to be paid for in expensive euro's. And worse: Greece would lose the Common Market (so.. no exports). That is the problem: whether Greece does or does not recognise Macedonia is not important.

What is important is that such actions are not carried out with Dutch taxpayer money. Because Dutch and German money is being used to prop up your country and not to assist you in fighting out dubious little wars with a neighbouring country.

With 30.000 posts,i highly doubt you'ever paid any taxes at all.

So when you say Dutch and German taxpayers you should exclude yourself.


Regards.

[kabeiros]

If Greece would be on your average morning when Greece has it's own affairs in order and does not rely on our handouts then I couldn't give a shit but this is done with our money and you only get our money in order to save your shit from falling to pieces. Since when have you Northerners become Greek lovers who lend us money out of kindness?



Fact: you are in debt to us and Germany and thus not an independent country. The moment you took that money Greece became our bitch and it's mandated to start coughing up the money or we will send the bailliff and take whatever is or isn't nailed down. And that should include your national treasures. Hell: and if it pays back the debt then the Jerries should drag the Acropolish to London and take it to Christies. Tough shit, amigo, you shouldn't have fucked us over and also accepted and abused our help in order to settle some cheap scores with neighbours.HA, we owe you nothing, the government does. If you think we are your bitches and you can take our national treasures because of some loans: ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ (if you know what I'm talking about)

[The Lawspeaker]

----
Ever heard of something called VAT, Akis, or inheritance tax ? I guess not since taxes are only nominally existing in Greece but rarely paid.

[The Lawspeaker]

Since when have you Northerners become Greek lovers who lend us money out of kindness?
If we would have less kind you would have been out a long time ago.


HA, we owe you nothing, the government does. If you think we are your bitches and you can take our national treasures because of some loans: ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ (if you know what I'm talking about)
And that's the government that you elected. So you owe us.

[Queen B]

HA, we owe you nothing, the government does. If you think we are your bitches and you can take our national treasures because of some loans: ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ (if you know what I'm talking about)
Have told the same already :eek:
Ever heard of something called VAT, Akis, or inheritance tax ? I guess not since taxes are only nominally existing in Greece but rarely paid.
We have paid our asses of in inheritance tax, property tax, extra property tax, vat, and any kind of shit.

[The Lawspeaker]

We have paid our asses of in inheritance tax, property tax, extra property tax, vat, and any kind of shit.
Then why is there so much tax evasion in your country ? It's a long-standing social disease.

[Queen B]

Then why is there so much tax evasion in your country ? It's a long-standing social disease.

I have told it several times Tuan, when you ll understand.
Why the fuck you think that its average people that tax evading?
Politicians, church, and billionairs do. Not me, neither any average/poor/normal citizen.

[kabeiros]

If we would have less kind you would have been out a long time ago.
That sounds just fine with me. Kick us out, only the government is in debt, most Greeks aren't, so we will live with out you (probably better)


And that's the government that you elected. So you owe us.No we don't. We shall put the politicians in trial, convinct them as traitors and refuse all the FAKE money you supposely loaned to us. Later you can come with your army to steal our treasures from us, but it should be done propperly with a war, not by Jewish tactics (if you know what I mean)

[The Lawspeaker]

I have told it several times Tuan, when you ll understand.
Why the fuck you think that its average people that tax evading?
Politicians, church, and billionairs do. Not me, neither any average/poor/normal citizen.

So you're saying that no common folk every evades taxes ? One common trick that that was widely explained in our papers is the building trick and this is how it seems to work: property owner builds a house and just leaves out the final tile on the roof in order to avoid having to pay taxes or he leaves out a window or a door for the same effect.

[Queen B]

So you're saying that no common folk every evades taxes ? One common trick that that was widely explained in our papers is the building trick and this is how it seems to work: property owner builds a house and just leaves out the final tile on the roof in order to avoid having to pay taxes or he leaves out a window or a door for the same effect.
That's shit (and many things that they say to you its stupid propaganda, we have already talked abotu that).

Almost no regular folk DOESN't pay taxes.
In order to put electricity to your house (and you can't have alternate power carriers here), you have mechanicals to check your house, and give the okay.
So, risk is , don't pay taxes, or live like a caveman.

Also, who would be that stupid to have the door or window undone, with such criminality?

No regular people can avoid that. If you don't pay house taxes, they cut off your electricity (you pay your tax bill together with power bill).
If you don't pay regular taxes, and you are a public officer or a private worker, you can't have your tax-clear paper, and therefore you can't do anything (take a loan, have some papers done to work, or even have a phone to your name linked).

Basically, those who can do this are either politicians, or very rich people/businessmen.

[The Lawspeaker]

That's shit (and many things that they say to you its stupid propaganda, we have already talked abotu that).

Almost no regular folk DOESN't pay taxes.
In order to put electricity to your house (and you can't have alternate power carriers here), you have mechanicals to check your house, and give the okay.
So, risk is , don't pay taxes, or live like a caveman.

Also, who would be that stupid to have the door or window undone, with such criminality?

No regular people can avoid that. If you don't pay house taxes, they cut off your electricity (you pay your tax bill together with power bill).
If you don't pay regular taxes, and you are a public officer or a private worker, you can't have your tax-clear paper, and therefore you can't do anything (take a loan, have some papers done to work, or even have a phone to your name linked).

Basically, those who can do this are either politicians, or very rich people/businessmen.
Let me give you some Dutch news articles and I want to hear what you think about it ? It's in Dutch so you will need a translator.

Corruptie kost Grieken nog steeds miljoenen (http://www.trouw.nl/tr/nl/4504/Economie/article/detail/3235478/2012/04/03/Corruptie-kost-Grieken-nog-steeds-miljoenen.dhtml)

Corruptie in Griekenland en ons geld (http://www.pluspost.nl/corruptie-in-griekenland-en-ons-geld/35921/)

Belastingfraude bloeit in Griekse toeristische centra (http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/1901/reisnieuws/article/detail/1476538/2012/07/27/Belastingfraude-bloeit-in-Griekse-toeristische-centra.dhtml)

Corruptie in publieke sector remt de economie (http://www.inoverheid.nl/artikel/nieuws/3546439/corruptie-in-publieke-sector-remt-de-economie.html)

Grieken smijten geld over de balk (http://www.telegraaf.nl/buitenland/9773377/__Grieken_smij-ten_geld_over_balk__.html)

Griekenland binnenkort failliet, Spanje volgt snel (http://www.telegraaf.nl/dft/goeroes/harmvanwijk/12616112/__Griekenland_binnenkort_failliet__Spanje_volgt_sn el__.html)

'Griekse ambtenaren niet weg te krijgen' (http://www.telegraaf.nl/dft/nieuws_dft/11082746/___Griekse_ambtenaren_niet_weg_te_krijgen___.html)

Miljoenen naar dode Grieken (http://www.telegraaf.nl/buitenland/9964074/__Miljoenen_naar_dode_Grieken__.html)



This is basically just a small sample of Dutch and Belgian press about Greece.

[Onur]

We have paid our asses of in inheritance tax, property tax, extra property tax, vat, and any kind of shit.
Maybe you pay for a year but you didn't pay for the 10 years before that. I just read that the tax evasion rate is 100% in some of your islands. 100% means no one ever pays any tax.


Record rates of tax evasion on islands
Extremely high rates of tax evasion were uncovered by the financial crimes squad SDOE during inspections carried out on islands and other summer resorts, the finance ministry revealed on Thursday.

Figures released by the ministry, concerning inspections carried out from July 6-23, revealed that six out of every 10 businesses inspected were guilty of evading taxes, with 805 tax violations discovered in a total of 1,410 inspections of shops and other businesses (57 per cent).

Tax evasion rates as high as 100 per cent were recorded in resorts on the islands of Zakynthos and Lefkada, in Rethymno on Crete and in Kastoria. Other areas on Crete also recorded very high rates of tax evasion, reaching 87 percent in Hania and 78 percent in Iraklio, followed by Santorini (83%), Corfu (75%), Naxos (73%) and Mykonos (68.5%). (AMNA)

26 Jul 2012

http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/1/57256

I have no idea what kind of state administration you have there but it seems like it was one and unique comparing to the rest of the world. Funny thing is, you still think like you could continue to live like that forever :)


And no, you didn't pay your asses yet. You will pay with your asses when they dump you out from Eurozone. When this happens [probably this winter] then even the most Greek haters in this forum will probably feel sad for Greece.

[kabeiros]

This is basically just a small sample of Dutch and Belgian press about Greece.
Owned by Jews I suppose

[The Lawspeaker]

Owned by Jews I suppose

That's something I would need to look up but the public news services here are not. They are held by either socialists, liberals, Catholics, protestants, etc and the news is checked for facts by an independent organisation called the ANP.

[kabeiros]

Later you can come with your army to steal our treasures from us, but it should be done propperly with a war, not by Jewish tactics (if you know what I mean)
Do you have anything to respond to this, or not?

[The Lawspeaker]

Public news station here: NOS (http://nos.nl/video/371124-zakynthos-geeft-uitkering-aan-blinde-chauffeurs.html). I will look for an article. Zakynthos geeft uitkering aan 'blinde' chauffeurs.

Veel Griekse 'blinden' kunnen zien (http://nos.nl/artikel/353730-veel-griekse-blinden-kunnen-zien.html)

[The Lawspeaker]

Later you can come with your army to steal our treasures from us, but it should be done propperly with a war, not by Jewish tactics (if you know what I mean)
Do you have anything to respond to this, or not?

Don't challenge the Germans that much. Last time that did end badly too.

One of the main debating/news websites in the Netherlands:

Luie frauderende kudtgrieken zijn lui & frauduleus (http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2012/07/luie_kudtgrieken_blijken_lui.html)

Let's not translate "kudtgrieken" It's a deliberately misspell from a very nasty word.

[kabeiros]

Don't challenge the Germans that much. Last time that did end badly too.
You are Dutch not German. We fought against the Germans more bravely than Dutch, French and Belgians combined

[The Lawspeaker]

You are Dutch not German. We fought against the Germans more bravely than Dutch, French and Belgians combined

Ooh really ? You received help and we didn't. You need to learn history but first you need to pay your taxes before you can get a school.

[kabeiros]

If they declare war on Greeks they will take them, no doubt, but it will be an honorary theft, not stinky, sneaky Jewish tactics

[The Lawspeaker]

If they declare war on Greeks they will take them, no doubt, but it will be an honorary theft, not stinky, sneaky Jewish tactics

It's just one example after the other. The Greeks would find no sympathy here whatsoever. And if you think the Dutch are pissed off. Try the Germans.

[kabeiros]

Ooh really ? You received help and we didn't. You need to learn history but first you need to pay your taxes before you can get a school.
We kicked the Italians out by our own. Help? Yeah right, the Brits gave us some money and weapons but they were also responsible for the death of thousands of Greeks because of famine (they forced an embargo on Greece). Although you have great schools and a lot of money, you don't learn history either.

[The Lawspeaker]

We kicked the Italians out by our own. Help? Yeah right, the Brits gave us some money and weapons but they were also responsible for the death of thousands of Greeks because of famine (they forced an embargo on Greece). Although you have great schools and a lot of money, you don't learn history either.
You didn't. You forgot that the Italians had already been taken out by the British and the Americans. You know: they landed in Italy and all that.

[Queen B]

It's just one example after the other. The Greeks would find no sympathy here whatsoever. And if you think the Dutch are pissed off. Try the Germans.
They don't seem pissed off.
All the Dutch I meet in Zakynthos, are fine with us :cool:

[kabeiros]

It's just one example after the other. The Greeks would find no sympathy here whatsoever. And if you think the Dutch are pissed off. Try the Germans.
I don't want to come in Netherlands, I don't care how you view Greeks. If Dutch are pissed of with Greeks it means propaganda works fine there

[Queen B]

Maybe you pay for a year but you didn't pay for the 10 years before that. I just read that the tax evasion rate is 100% in some of your islands. 100% means no one ever pays any tax.

You can't read then.. It talks about business and resorts, not about random people.:crazy:
Its obvious that out of 40.000 , lets say Zakynthians, can't all of them have businesses.
And even in that case, the 100% is inaccurate as well.

[The Lawspeaker]

So.. spending all that money on apparently very fraudulent Greeks while our own poor are now being send to the breadlines, while a quarter of our young people are now unemployed and while there is talk about increasing healthcare payments and doubling fees (to well over 400 euro's - now they have decided to make it 350) - why should there be any sympathy for the Greeks ? Or for the rest of the knoflookvreters in de apenlanden south of the alps (garlicmunchers in the banana republics) or the corrupt EU for that matter. Yes these words are being used here in our press and by a lot of people.

Eigen risico zorgverzekering 2013 definitief naar 350 euro (http://weblog.independer.nl/in-het-nieuws/eigen-risico-zorgverzekering-2013-definitief-naar-350-euro/)
Groot tekort verse levensmiddelen voedselbank (http://www.eenvandaag.nl/binnenland/40092/groot_tekort_verse_levensmiddelen_voedselbank) (public network)
'Bijna kwart Nederlandse jongeren werkloos' (http://www.nu.nl/economie/2862033/bijna-kwart-nederlandse-jongeren-werkloos.html)

And where is that money going ? Greece and the fraudulent other garlic munchers.

[kabeiros]

You didn't. You forgot that the Italians had already been taken out by the British and the Americans. You know: they landed in Italy and all that.
Are you joking????? Go read about the invasion of Greece by Italians, in 1940. We call it the epic victory of Greeks against Mussolini's cowards (long before the Brits and Americans land on Italy). That's why the Germans had to invade in Greece

[AkisGreece]

I don't think that Dutch people hate that much as Tuan is trying to persuade you people here.

I could say,that they actually make this kind of comments for everyone except for themselves.


They hate the Greeks for being lazy.
They hate Italians for being corrupt.
They hate Spaniards for being Catholic and being their past opressors.
Thay hate Bulgarians and Romanians because they are poor and excluded them from the Senghen Agreement.
They hate Germans for WWII and being their satellite state.
And goes on and on....


Also,i would like to notice that there is a huge difference between Dutch men and women.
Dutch women are not the prettiest of all in Europe,but they are tall,blond and slim,the way i love it.
They also are very open when it comes to flirting,in constrast with Mediterranean ones.

Dutch men...i've met people who love Greeks and chose to live here with us for a lifetime.
Most of these,could not tolerate the bad weather in the Netherlands and the cold attitude of their compatriots.
There are also Dutch men who don't really like Greece in general.
And Tuan Belanda is a typical paradigm.



I guess he is a 30 y old Dutch who lives on welfare,and he simply fears that after Northern Europeans have to help Med club,he should receive serious cuts in his 'salary'.


To be honest,if i was in his position,i would be more aggressive than he is.

The only bad thing,is that people online might assume that Dutch people are like him,and this is wrong.

[Queen B]

I don't want to come in Netherlands, I don't care how you view Greeks. If Dutch are pissed of with Greeks it means propaganda works fine there
I don't think Tuan represents the average Dutch.
We have lots of Dutch tourists here and they are extremely friendly and supporting.

[The Lawspeaker]

---
Why not read the articles I presented. This is what people read here.

[The Lawspeaker]

I don't think Tuan represents the average Dutch.
We have lots of Dutch tourists here and they are extremely friendly and supporting.

Just read the articles and maybe you would understand how people here feel.

[The Lawspeaker]

That's why I posted the articles: this is what people here read on a daily basis. Never mind the fact what politicians here say. I will not even go look into that because they are positively murderous.

[Queen B]

Why not read the articles I presented. This is what people read here.
I fastly read them. Half of them are exxagerated and half of them are stupid.
Tuan, we have already talked about it in another thread, and another thread, and another thread (that all of them have been derailed, and I moved all posts there, like we should do with that, too) and we keep talking about the same thinks again and again.
So, why not just bump this old thread AGAIN?

[kabeiros]

You avoid posts that you don't like Tuan. I exposed one of your fallacies but no respond yet. We kicked Italians out by our own.

[AkisGreece]

I do not speak Dutch my friend.
I like the language and the way it sounds,but i cannot find a Dutch institute like Cervantes or Francophonie or what...

I can see how Dutch feel when they visit Greece and have a great time.



Seriously,could you please inform us about your 'hardworking' backround?


Is it true that you are 30 y old and unemployed?


Dutch people are productive...more than Germans.
Seriously,i cannot understand how you can have a job when you have 30.000 posts in a forum talking with 'lazy' Greeks and spending your valuable time.

[The Lawspeaker]

----
Google Translator is your friend. I use it to read foreign articles as well. Including Greek ones so that's not an excuse.

About Italy - Wilders is curt on Twitter (http://www.dagelijksestandaard.nl/2012/07/wilders-geen-nederlandse-euro-naar-itali%C3%AB):


"In geen honderdduizend jaar".

Geert Wilders laat er op Twitter - zoals we onderhand trouwens gewend zijn van 'm - geen twijfel over bestaan dat hij financiele steun aan Italië nooit en te nimmer zal steunen:

Kamervragen over overheidsmaffiapraktijken Sicilie. Geen Nederlandse euro in geen honderdduizend jaar naar Italie!

De PVV'ers stellen enkele bijzonder belangrijke vragen. Voorbeeld:

Is het u bekend dat tien Italiaanse steden failliet dreigen te gaan (*) en dat Sicilië 3.360 chauffeurs in dienst heeft voor 256 ambulances, 17 stenografen inschakelt als de regiopresident een toespraak houdt, 30.000 boswachters in dienst heeft en dat de president van de regio een persoonlijke staf heeft van 1.385 personen, bijna evenveel als de Britse Premier David Cameron (**)?

[Queen B]

Just read the articles and maybe you would understand how people here feel.
I don't need to, I meet enough dutch already every day, to have a different opinion.

[The Lawspeaker]

I don't need to, I meet enough dutch already every day, to have a different opinion.

I don't think so because then you would read what Dutchmen read and then you wouldn't be so defensive about the corrupt nature of your country.

I honestly think that we shouldn't pay a penny to support you and that is indeed is one of the leading principles of f.i the PVV here and an opinion shared by many Dutchmen.