Roman Emperor, Maximinus Thrax: Could he have been a Serb?

[rashka]

Maximinus Thrax (Latin: Gaius Julius Verus Maximinus Augustus;[2] c. 173 – 238), also known as Maximinus I, was Roman Emperor from 235 to 238.

Maximinus is described by several ancient sources, though none are contemporary except Herodian's Roman History. Maximinus was the first emperor never to set foot in Rome. He was the first of the so-called barracks emperors of the 3rd century; his rule is often considered to mark the beginning of the Crisis of the Third Century. He died at Aquileia whilst attempting to put down a Senatorial revolt.

Rise to power

Most likely Maximinus was of Thraco-Roman origin (believed so by Herodian in his writings). According to the notoriously unreliable Augustan History (Historia Augusta), he was born in Thrace or Moesia to a Gothic father and an Alanic mother, an Iranian people of the Scythian-Sarmatian branch; however, the supposed parentage is highly unlikely, as the presence of the Goths in the Danubian area is first attested after the beginning of the Crisis of the Third Century. British historian Ronald Syme, writing that "the word 'Gothia' should have sufficed for condemnation" of the passage in the Augustan History, felt that the burden of evidence from Herodian, Syncellus and elsewhere pointed to Maximinus having been born in Moesia. The references to his "Gothic" ancestry might refer to a Thracian Getae origin (the two populations were often confused by later writers, most notably by Jordanes in his Getica), as suggested by the paragraphs describing how "he was singularly beloved by the Getae, moreover, as if he were one of themselves" and how he spoke "almost pure Thracian".

His background was, in any case, that of a provincial of low birth, and was seen by the Senate as a barbarian, not even a true Roman, despite Caracalla’s edict granting citizenship to all freeborn inhabitants of the Empire. In many ways Maximinus was similar to the later Thraco-Roman Roman emperors of the 3rd-5th century (Licinius, Galerius, Aureolus, Leo the Thracian, etc.), elevating themselves, via a military career, from the condition of a common soldier in one of the Roman legions to the foremost positions of political power. He joined the army during the reign of Septimius Severus, but did not rise to a powerful position until promoted by Alexander Severus. Maximinus was in command of Legio IV Italica, composed of recruits from Pannonia, who were angered by Alexander's payments to the Alemanni and his avoidance of war. The troops, among whom included the Legio XXII Primigenia, elected the stern Maximinus, killing young Alexander and his mother at Moguntiacum (modern Mainz). The Praetorian Guard acclaimed him emperor, and their choice was grudgingly confirmed by the Senate,who were displeased to have a peasant as emperor. His son Maximus became caesar.

According to British historian Edward Gibbon:

He was conscious that his mean and barbarian origin, his savage appearance, and his total ignorance of the arts and institutions of civil life, formed a very unfavourable contrast with the amiable manners of the unhappy Alexander. He remembered that, in his humbler fortune, he had often waited before the doors of the haughty nobles of Rome, and had been denied admittance by the insolence of their slaves. He recollected too the friendship of a few who had relieved his poverty, and assisted his rising hopes. But those who had spurned, and those who had protected, the Thracian, were guilty of the same crime, the knowledge of his original obscurity. For this crime many were put to death; and by the execution of several of his benefactors Maximin published, in characters of blood, the indelible history of his baseness and ingratitude.

Consolidation of power

Maximinus hated the nobility and was ruthless towards those he suspected of plotting against him. He began by eliminating the close advisors of Alexander.His suspicions may have been justified; two plots against Maximinus were foiled. The first was during a campaign across the Rhine, during which a group of officers, supported by influential senators, plotted the destruction of a bridge across the river, then leave Maximinus stranded on the other side. Afterwards they planned to elect senator Magnus emperor; however the plot was discovered and the conspirators executed. The second plot involved Mesopotamian archers who were loyal to Alexander. They planned to elevate Quartinus, but their leader Macedo changed sides and murdered Quartinus instead, although this was not enough to save his own life.

Defence of frontiers

The accession of Maximinus is commonly seen as the beginning of the Crisis of the Third Century (also known as the "Military Anarchy" or the "Imperial Crisis"), the commonly applied name for the crumbling and near collapse of the Roman Empire between 235 and 284 caused by three simultaneous crises: external invasion, internal civil war, and economic collapse.

Maximinus' first campaign was against the Alamanni, whom Maximinus defeated despite heavy Roman casualties in a swamp in the Agri Decumates.After the victory, Maximinus took the title Germanicus Maximus, raised his son Maximus to the rank of Caesar and Prince of Youths, and deified his late wife Paulina. Maximinus may have launched a second campaign deep into Germania, defeating a Germanic tribe beyond the Weser in the Battle at the Harzhorn. Securing the German frontier, at least for a while, Maximinus then set up a winter encampment at Sirmium in Pannonia, and from that supply base fought the Dacians and the Sarmatians during the winter of 235–236.


Appearance

Ancient sources, ranging from the notoriously unreliable Historia Augusta to Herodian, speak of Maximinus as a man of significantly greater size than his contemporaries. He is, moreover, depicted in ancient imagery as man with a prominent brow, nose, and jaw; symptoms of one form of overgrowth. His thumb was said to be so large that he wore his wife's bracelet as a ring for it. While the exact size of Maximinus will probably never be known, he was nonetheless likely a man of great size.

According to Historia Augusta, "he was of such size, so Cordus reports, that men said he was eight foot, six inches in height". It is very likely however that this is one of the many 'tall tales' in the Historia Augusta, and is immediately suspect due to its citation of 'Cordus', one of the several fictitious authorities the work cites.

Although not going into the supposedly detailed portions of Historia Augusta, the historian Herodian, a contemporary of Maximinus, mentions him as a man of greater size, noting that: "He was in any case a man of such frightening appearance and colossal size that there is no obvious comparison to be drawn with any of the best-trained Greek athletes or warrior elite of the barbarians."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/Maximinus_Thrax_Musei_Capitolini_MC473.jpg

Reign: 20 March 235 – April 238
Full name: Gaius Julius Verus Maximinus Augustus
Born: c. 173
Birthplace: Thrace or Moesia
Died: April 238 (aged 65)
Place of death: Aquileia, Italy
Predecessor: Severus Alexander
Successor: Pupienus and Balbinus
Wife: Caecilia Paulina
Offspring: Gaius Julius Verus Maximus
Father: Unknown, possibly Micca
Mother: Unknown, possibly Ababa
Note the father's name Micca. A popular Serbian nickname is Mica. Also note the mother's name ababa, probably slavic derive. The last name Maximovic and the first name Maxim are also very popular names in Serbia.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximinus_I

Note the places Moesia/Pannonia/Sirmium ('Montes Serrorum' Serb Mountains in Latin)

http://www.romanianhistoryandculture.com/Moesia.jpg

[Europa]

Of course not,Rashka..

[rashka]

Of course not,Rashka..

Europea please no one word negative answers. Say why not or don't bother.

[Peyrol]

What the hell....certainly not!

In these times slavs lived in Poland/Baltic sea :laugh:

[Europa]

Most likely Maximinus was of Thraco-Roman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Roman) origin (believed so by Herodian in his writings).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximinus_Thrax#cite_note-3) According to the notoriously unreliable Augustan History (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustan_History) (Historia Augusta), he was born in Thrace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrace) or Moesia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moesia) to a Gothic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths) father and an Alanic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans) mother,[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximinus_Thrax#cite_note-4) an Iranian people of the Scythian-Sarmatian branch; however, the supposed parentage is highly unlikely, as the presence of the Goths in the Danubian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danubian) area is first attested after the beginning of the Crisis of the Third Century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximinus_Thrax

Please don't try to make up history like some other posters from other nations on the Balkans do. And take it easy lass!:coffee:

[rashka]

Please don't try to make up history like some other posters from other nations on the Balkans do. And take it easy lass!:coffee:

Who is making up history? No one knows for sure who he was, nor those from the ancient past who also speculated. Our purpose here is to find meanings, to find common denominators, and not to put a lid on things just because of some people's jealousies. :coffee:

[Europa]

Who is making up history? No one knows for sure who he was, nor those from the ancient past who also speculated. Our purpose here is to find meanings, to find common denominators, and not to put a lid on things just because of some people's jealousies. :coffee:


Ok,whatever...:coffee:

[rashka]

What the hell....certainly not!

In these times slavs lived in Poland/Baltic sea :laugh:

That's for you to say. Because of his title "Roman Emperor" it means he had to have been an Italian? Roman emperors existed even in Britain! I can laugh too at how little you know. Slavs lived everywhere. Little do you know about history. No need to say "what the hell" and "certainly not" as though you are the biggest historian dictator on earth.
Have you even scrutinized the map I put up? Do you even know about the Serb Mountains? Do you even know who the Iazyges and the Roxolanis are?

[Ushtari]

There were no Slavs in Balkan prior to 6th century, this is common knowledge.

[rashka]

There were no Slavs in Balkan prior to 6th century, this is common knowledge.

Common only to the Albanian dream.

[Ushtari]

Common only to the Albanian dream.
Do you have any source supporting your claims about Slavs being present in Balkan during this time?

[rashka]

One theory was that slavs were already living in Moesia before the Alanized slavs came to rule over them.

"The Slavs migrated in successive waves. Small numbers might have moved down as early as the 3rd century however the bulk of migration did not occur until the late 6th century AD. They occupied most of the Eastern Roman Empire, pushing deep into Greece."
From Wikipedia.

"The great mass migration of the Slavs from the ancient homeland of the 'Slavic Cradle' to the west, east and south of Europe began around the end of the 2nd century AD and continued to the middle of the 7th century AD. The name Proto-Slav can be said for the Slavs before the mass-migrations, and the name Slav for the Slavs after the expansion. The mass migrations of the Slavs were instigated by the movements of other ethnic peoples; namely the Germanic tribes and Asian nomadic barbarians."
From an article (not a forum)

So if his mother is Alanic and he was born in Moesia (present day Serbia), you can put the two together easily.

[Ushtari]

When i said "Source" i meant a serious academic one, not a random copy-paste from a forum.

Let me put it simple for you as i did with your compatriot. In ancient writings, several placenames in Balkan are recorded, and none of these are Slavic.

[Drawing-slim]

Malenko and rashka talk about theories when it comes to serbians history and origin.
"Theory" as if serbia is the universe, and we can only speculate about this infintely vast misterious thing called serbia:D

[rashka]

Malenko and rashka talk about theories when it comes to serbians history and origin.
"Theory" as if serbia is the universe, and we can only speculate about this infintely vast misterious thing called serbia:D

When i said "Source" i meant a serious academic one, not a random copy-paste from a forum.

Let me put it simple for you as i did with your compatriot. In ancient writings, several placenames in Balkan are recorded, and none of these are Slavic.

That was academic. Not much was set in stone when it comes to history and the Balkans and all depends on who was writing the history. What are you trying to prove with your anti-Serbian slurs again? Saying no Serbs in the Balkans prior to 6th century is non-sense and is written everywhere that there were indeed some slavic settlements. Was that YOUR academic schooling?
Early Accounts of the Slavs (from Wikipedia): Little is known about the Slavs before the 5th century. Their history prior to this can only be tentatively hypothesized via archeological and linguistic studies. Much of what we know about their history after the 6th century is from the works of Byzantine historians.

I know what you are leading all this to again with your Albanians being Illyrian crap? Please leave this thread to serious posters and serious analyzers and not to bullshitters like yourself.
Here is a map of Albania full of SLAVIC toponyms. http://www.kroraina.com/seli_sna/selish_slavicnames2.gif

[Ushtari]

Again, there are no Slavic place names in Balkan prior to 6th century, i wonder why:rolleyes2:


Even your language speaks against you, wich is not connected with any paleo-balkan language.

[rashka]

Again, there are no Slavic place names in Balkan prior to 6th century, i wonder why:rolleyes2:


Even your language speaks against you, wich is not connected with any paleo-balkan language.

Your language BASE belongs to the Caucasus languages. Present day Azerbaijan. Out you go.

[Mortimer]

Interesting Thread, Rashka.

[Ushtari]

Your language BASE belongs to the Caucasus languages. Present day Azerbaijan. Out you go.
Ok, but please stick to topic. And im still waiting for that reliable source supporting your claims.

[Mordid]

Ok, but please stick to topic. And im still waiting for that reliable source supporting your claims.
Go back to Armenordic.

[Artek]

Hahahahahha, serb? When? In the third century ad? Intredasting

[Adrian]

Note the father's name Micca. A popular Serbian nickname is Mica. Also note the mother's name ababa, probably slavic derive. The last name Maximovic and the first name Maxim are also very popular names in Serbia.

This is why you think he was a Serb?

[Artek]

In the 3rd century AD there was nothing like Serbian nation, so he couldn't have been Serb. Is it so incomprehensible?

[dralos]

so why started serbs speaking slavic when there was never a slavic invasion in balkan

[Minesweeper]

How could a Roman emperor be a Serb?

[Ushtari]

The answer on whether he could be a Serb is already given in the text she quoted in her first post, so if anything you should complain on her for opening a meaningless thread instead of us others who just point it out.

[Kanuni]

He was born in Thrace or Moesia to a Gothic father and an Alanic mother,an Iranian people of the Scythian-Sarmatian branch.

Answer to you:No he was not a Serb.

[Loki]

It seems likely that my paternal ancestor came from Moesia Superior (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24033) in service of the Roman Army ... likely Thracian or Illyrian in ancestry.

[dralos]

It seems likely that my paternal ancestor came from Moesia Superior (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24033) in service of the Roman Army ... likely Thracian or Illyrian in ancestry.
loki illyrian brother:thumb001:

[Panopticon]

Your own text refutes any possibility of that.

Your arguments are that he was a very tall man, his surname, the names of his mother and father and the name of a mountain. Not very compelling arguments.

First of, that he was a large man means absolutely nothing. Height tells extremely little of ethnicity. Serbs aren't really that tall to begin with; far from as tall as they admit to be.

Maximum is a Latin name, the etymology of it is "the greatest". It's a commonly used word; "our effort was maximum", "you can take one chocolate bar max(-imum)". Max is a common name today. Serbs just took it from the Romans, like everyone else did.

The names of the father and mother are hardly Slavic, and your source says that those names are only possibilities, meaning that they don't know. As for the names: Micca could be related to Latin 'amicus' meaning friend, Ababa doesn't sound like anything. Serbian 'Mica' is probably a diminutive of Amicus as well.

Montes Serrorum doesn't mean the Serb mountains, it's likely from Latin 'Servare' (protect, serve, preserve), which could give the meaning of "preserved mountains" or something like that. Most importanty, however, the Carpathians were referred to as "Montes Serrorum", that's far away from the area discussed.

[Guapo]

First of, that he was a large man means absolutely nothing. Height tells extremely little of ethnicity. Serbs aren't really that tall to begin with; far from as tall as they admit to be. .

Excuse me? why don't you albanians stop the lies and trolling in our subforum already. I bet I tower over all of you albanians here, let alone others, no problem.

[Guapo]

It seems likely that my paternal ancestor came from Moesia Superior (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24033) in service of the Roman Army ... likely Thracian or Illyrian in ancestry.

Cool, my ancestors were noble aryan Germanics.

[rashka]

Your text doesn't prove anything except too many "could be's" and "probably's" that are quite antagonizing. What's next...that Nikola Tesla was an Albanian :rolleyes:

My topic was about a man whose birthplace was in Nis, Serbia and it was known that his mother was Alanic - a Sarmatian tribe. This Sarmatian tribe was connected to the slavs.

Etymology of serve is serve late 12c., "to render habitual obedience to," from O.Fr. servir "to serve," from L. servire "to serve," originally "be a slave," related to servus "slave," perhaps from an Etruscan word (cf. Etruscan proper names Servi, Serve). Meaning "to attend to (a customer)" is first recorded mid-14c.; that of "to set food on (a table)" is from late 14c. Sporting sense, in tennis, badminton, etc., first recorded 1580s; the noun in this sense is from 1680s. To serve (someone) right "to treat as he deserves" is recorded from 1580s. To serve the time "shape one's views to what is in favor" is from 1550s, translating L. tempori servire; time-server first recorded 1580s. Related: Served. Serving "a helping of food" is from 1769.

The Latin Servare came from the word Serb because Servare was not in the old latin language. Just like the word Slave - slavus was not the original word for slave in Latin. They had "acquired" the word.

Very very most-importantly Carpathians are not too far away from that "place". Nor was Pannonia.

Montes Serrorum is very likely to mean Serb Mountains.


Roman historian Ammianus Marcellinus (325-391) referred to the Carpathians as "Montes Serrorum" in his works, according to some, connected to the Serbs. Most probably the Southern Carpathians.


The Southern Carpathians or the Transylvanian Alps (, , ) are a group of mountain ranges which divide central and southern Romania, on one side, and Serbia, on the other side. They cover part of the Carpathian Mountains that is located between the Prahova River in the east and the Timiş and Cerna Rivers in the west. To the south they are bounded by the Balkan mountain range of Serbia.



Ptolemy's mention of the town of Serbinum (Σέρβινον), modern Gradiška, Bosnia and Herzegovina


Serbinum, also known as Servitium or Servicium, was an ancient Roman city in the province of Pannonia. It was situated in the location of present-day Gradiška in northern Bosnia and Herzegovina.


Sources
In Ptolemy’s Geography from the 2nd century, there is mention of (and it is also indicated on a map) a place named Serbinon or Serbinum (This place was located under mountains Biblia ore or Biblini montes or Beby m. which are actually Kozara and Grmeč, according to Hungarian scientists).
In the book Itinerarium Antonini from the 2nd and 3rd centuries, this name is written as Servitium.
In a map known as Tabula Peutingeriana from the 4th century, this name is written as Seruitio.
In the book Notitia dignitatum from about 400 AD, this name is written as Servitii.
In the book Anonymi Ravennatis Cosmographia from the 7th and 8th centuries, this name is written as Serbitium.

All mentioned forms of the name (including Serbinon, Serbinum, Servitium, Seruitio, Servitii, and Serbitium) refer to a single place, which is identified as present-day Gradiška.

The settlement is primarily believed to have been located on the right bank of the river Savus, but there was also a corresponding settlement on the left bank, near today's Stara Gradiška that some modern-day local sources also identify as Servitium.

History

In Roman times, the Municipium Servicium was an important crossroad between the east and the south of the Balkans, i.e. a port for the Roman river fleet, which speaks for itself about the strategic importance of the settlement at the time.

Theories of the origin of the name

One theory suggests that the name could be connected to the Serbs. It could be connected to the ancient Sarmatian tribe Serboi, that perhaps inhabited the Pannonian Plain together with the Iazyges. It is possible that part of the Serboi migrated to Pannonian Plain together with the Iazyges in the first century, and that Serbinum was named after them.


Here are some maps

Serbinum in 2nd century
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Pannonia02.png

Pannonia and Danube
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/Ptolemy_Cosmographia_Pannonia%2BDanube.jpg


In conculsion, Maximinus Thrax could very well have been a Serb or part Serb because Slavic people, a part of who were autochthonous to the area, already lived there mingling with the Illyrians, Celts and others.

[Guapo]

Funny how armchair historians claim Slavs just popped out of nowhere in 7th century but were/are the most numerous folk in Europe then and today.

[rashka]

Excuse me? why don't you albanians stop the lies and trolling in our subforum already. I bet I tower over all of you albanians here, let alone others, no problem.

It's because they can't live without our direction or at least someone's direction i.e. America's. They are nothing without Serbs. In fact 1/2 of their vocabulary was copied from Serbs.

[Yaroslav]

There were no Slavs in Balkan prior to 6th century, this is common knowledge.

Albanians weren't mentioned until 12th century either.

[Guapo]

Albanians weren't mentioned until 12th century either.

don't bother, they have a paid agenda here. this thread will be closed soon.

[Panopticon]

Excuse me? why don't you albanians stop the lies and trolling in our subforum already. I bet I tower over all of you albanians here, let alone others, no problem.

I'm 189, a little more than 6'2. I'm taller than most Serbs I've met, and all studies seem to show that Serbs are not the giants they'd like to be. Don't turn this thread into another Serbs vs Albanians.


Your text doesn't prove anything except too many "could be's" and "probably's" that are quite antagonizing. What's next...that Nikola Tesla was an Albanian :rolleyes:

No, I never mentioned Nikola Tesla, and I never mentioned Albanians. Though it's ironic that you're the one accusing me of historical revisionism, hilarious actually.



My topic was about a man whose birthplace was in Nis, Serbia and it was known that his mother was Alanic - a Sarmatian tribe. This Sarmatian tribe was connected to the slavs.

The Serbs hadn't migrated into the Balkans at that time.

The Sarmatians were Indo-Iranians, which indeed were related to Slavs; their modern descendants are the Ossetians. But that just goes to show that he wasn't actually a Slav but Sarmatian through his mother.


Etymology of serve is serve late 12c., "to render habitual obedience to," from O.Fr. servir "to serve," from L. servire "to serve," originally "be a slave," related to servus "slave," perhaps from an Etruscan word (cf. Etruscan proper names Servi, Serve). Meaning "to attend to (a customer)" is first recorded mid-14c.; that of "to set food on (a table)" is from late 14c. Sporting sense, in tennis, badminton, etc., first recorded 1580s; the noun in this sense is from 1680s. To serve (someone) right "to treat as he deserves" is recorded from 1580s. To serve the time "shape one's views to what is in favor" is from 1550s, translating L. tempori servire; time-server first recorded 1580s. Related: Served. Serving "a helping of food" is from 1769.

They are different words. And where do you think the English word preserve came from? Even the concept of a servant/slave is related to keeping, preserving, watching etc. as Servare meant in Latin.

http://wordinfo.info/unit/3638/ip:6/il:S


The Latin Servare came from the word Serb because Servare was not in the old latin language. Just like the word Slave - slavus was not the original word for slave in Latin. They had "acquired" the word.

Slavic influence on Latin is just about zero.


Very very most-importantly Carpathians are not too far away from that "place". Nor was Pannonia.

The Carpathians are not in the Balkans, quite far away actually.


Montes Serrorum is very likely to mean Serb Mountains.

It might. It doesn't mean much anyways, it has nothing to do with the Balkans.



Most probably the Southern Carpathians.

As if that makes any difference, it's still not in the Balkans. It's quite far away.


Here are some maps

Serbinum in 2nd century
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Pannonia02.png

Pannonia and Danube
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/Ptolemy_Cosmographia_Pannonia%2BDanube.jpg

In conculsion, Maximinus Thrax could very well have been a Serb or part Serb because Slavic people, a part of who were autochthonous to the area, already lived there mingling with the Illyrians, Celts and others.

Slavs came to the Balkans in the 6th-7th century, and they came following the Avars who were their rulers. They were a primitive tribal people, and they were of no importance; they weren't mentioned until the 6th century when they started expanding to the west and the south. That doesn't sound like a people who migrate far from their past territories and suddenly build a city. Serbinum most likely comes from the previously discussed Latin 'Servare'.

[Adrian]

don't bother, they have a paid agenda here. this thread will be closed soon.

What do you mean with 'paid agenda'?

[ikki]

Europea please no one word negative answers. Say why not or don't bother.

serbs werent even close to rome before 500s. It took some huns and such that forced serbs to move.

[Ushtari]

Rashka im still waiting for an Academic source about Slavs being present in Balkan during the time of Maximinus.



Albanians weren't mentioned until 12th century either.
We were mentioned in different ways. Albanians were mentioned as living in Balkan in 12th century, while Serbs were mentioned as migrating to Balkan in 6th century. There is no historical witnesses about an Albanian migration to Balkan. Besides, as commonly known, our language proves that we are native there.

[Drawing-slim]

The name Tuan belenda appeard in TA just recently.
So acording to serbian rashka logic, civis batavi came out of nowhere and his pressence here is just two weeks old.

[MandM]

i havent read all of the site so dont even know if we are mentiod in balkan but heare are some theorys i found maby somthing to debate about.

Here are a few of the earliest quotations from well known ancient geographers and historians:
•
Rig Veda- ancient religious sanskrit text (3000-1500 b.c.)in book VIII., 32., 2.:"2 Strong God, he slew Anarsani,
Srbinda
, Pipru, and the fiend, Ahisuva, and loosed thefloods." From all the European peoples the Serbs are the only race from the construction of the wording of their name, according to the Austrian sanskritologist
Walter Wust
who arecomposed in the Vedic hymns as the characteristic SRBINDA, in which almost letter to letter is identical to the modern form SRBENDA used by Balkan Serbs. The Rig Vedaऋग्वेद (Sanskrit ṛc praise + vedaknowledge) is the earliest of the four Hindu religious scriptures known as the Vedas. ...In the Vedic manuscripts, Wust interprets, SRBINDA as its own original to say patentedname with a predetermined meaning. Which is in complete harmony to thinking of today’sSRBENDA expression in Serbs, because Srbenda is always the best, the most respected, most brave, the greatest for respecting tradition: in short a man who is used and shown as anexample to others.
•
Herodotus(11,6) (5th century BC), andDiodor from Sicily(1,30) mention the lake named
Serbonis
(
Σερβυνιδοζ
) in lower Egypt. However taking the large distances intothe account it is highly unlikely that today's Serbs have anything to do with that particular toponym.
•
Strabo(63 - 19 BC): "the river Kanthos/Skamandrosis called Sirbis (Sirbika) by the natives." (Strabonis rerum geographicarum libri septendicini, Basileza 1571 s. 763).
•
Tacitus(ca. 50 AD): described the
Serboi
tribe near theCaucasus,close to the hinterland into theBlack Sea. Many consider this theory as a very probable one takingsome distant linguistic similarities with today's Caucausus people's such asIngushi, Chechensetc.
•
Pliny(69-75 AD): "beside theCimerianslive Meotics, Valians,Serbs(
Serboi
),Zingians, Psesians." (
Historia naturalis
, VI, c. 7 & 19 Leipzig 1975). It coincides withtheTacitus's view on Serbian ancient homeland among the Iranian peoples of theCaucasus.
•
Ptolemy(150 AD): "between the Keraunian mountains and the river Pa, live the Orineians, Valians andSerbs." (
Geographia
V, s. 9). Ptolemy also mention the city inPannonianamed
Serbinum
(present dayGradiškainRepublika Srpska, Bosnia and Herzegovina). This well known ancient scientist one more time points out to theCaucasus placing Serbs close to Black Seariviera

http://www.scribd.com/djurovicshone/d/21800418-Theories-on-the-Origin-of-the-Serbs

[Geronimo]

Some people find it hard to accept the fact that they're newcomers in Europe

[poiuytrewq0987]

Roman Emperor, Maximinus Thrax: Could he have been a Serb? Reply to Thread

No. The modern Serbian identity never existed before the 19th century.

[MandM]

Some people find it hard to accept the fact that they're newcomers in Europe

of everything there was to read that was the best u culd come up with

[Ushtari]

of everything there was to read that was the best u culd come up with
Why is it so hard to accept the truth?


there is no reference to Slavs or slavic language in Balkan in ancient times AND, hold one, cuz here it comes......wait a little bit more.....................they are recorded as migrating to Balkan in 6th century!!!https://static.flashback.org/img/smilies2/w000t.gif

[MandM]

Why is it so hard to accept the truth?


there is no reference to Slavs or slavic language in Balkan in ancient times AND, hold one, cuz here it comes......wait a little bit more.....................they are recorded as migrating to Balkan in 6th century!!!https://static.flashback.org/img/smilies2/w000t.gif

but what about the link i gave u all did u read it or just don't give a fuck cuz, u stick with the story u prefer and thats that, i never denied the migration, but there are other theories that can be debatable to

[poiuytrewq0987]

Why is it so hard to accept the truth?


there is no reference to Slavs or slavic language in Balkan in ancient times AND, hold one, cuz here it comes......wait a little bit more.....................they are recorded as migrating to Balkan in 6th century!!!https://static.flashback.org/img/smilies2/w000t.gif

We both know that the modern Serbs are not pureblood Slavs from Russia. Rather they are a mixture of Slav-speakers from Northeast Europe, indigenous peoples of the Balkans, Anatolians, Turkics, Italians... like every other ethnic group in the Balkans.

Raska's logic is that since Serbs are a mixture of people including Illyrians of past and since he is from the modern region of Serbia means he was indeed Serbian. That's just stupid because the modern Serbian identity never existed before the 19th century. The Slav speakers of today's Serbia suddenly adopted their Serbian identity when they wanted to break away from the Ottoman Empire to form their own Christian nation.

[Geronimo]

of everything there was to read that was the best u culd come up with

Don't worry, judging by your looks you're probably one of the most authentic indigenous balkanites, just adopted the culture of newcomers ;)

[Libertas]

Then a Serbian Princip sparked off WW1 and the decline of Europe with the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand in 1914.

[Ushtari]

Raska's logic is that since Serbs are a mixture of people including Illyrians of past and since he is from the modern region of Serbia means he was indeed Serbian. That's just stupid because the modern Serbian identity never existed before the 19th century. The Slav speakers of today's Serbia suddenly adopted their Serbian identity when they wanted to break away from the Ottoman Empire to form their own Christian nation.
Rashka believes that the Albanian lobby have paid the entire academic world to fool the world in believing that Serbs migrated to Balkan in 6th century and that there were no slavs prior to that time.

poor serbs

[MandM]

Don't worry, judging by your looks you're probably one of the most authentic indigenous balkanites, just adopted the culture of newcomers ;)

Sure that is not impossible.

lets say now this is true
"Genetic studies shows that Serbs are in fact of predominantly Balkan genetics (indigenous to the region[41][42]) and have very small amount of generally considered "Slavic" (R-M458, ranging from 0-12% in the Serbs, Albanians, Macedonians, Greeks and Bulgarians[43]) genes suggesting that Slavic culture and language was passed on by the Serbian "elite" to the Romanized Paleo-Balkan peoples of the conquered region (Serbian lands)."

shuld we now be considerd newcomers or dont we have as much right to claim balkan as our origin

[poiuytrewq0987]

Don't worry, judging by your looks you're probably one of the most authentic indigenous balkanites, just adopted the culture of newcomers ;)

Oi! Serbian culture is not Slavic at all. If you want to describe it then Balkan-Ottoman is the right term to describe Serbian culture.

[Ushtari]

Sure that is not impossible.

lets say now this is true
"Genetic studies shows that Serbs are in fact of predominantly Balkan genetics (indigenous to the region[41][42]) and have very small amount of generally considered "Slavic" (R-M458, ranging from 0-12% in the Serbs, Albanians, Macedonians, Greeks and Bulgarians[43]) genes suggesting that Slavic culture and language was passed on by the Serbian "elite" to the Romanized Paleo-Balkan peoples of the conquered region (Serbian lands)."

shuld we now be considerd newcomers or dont we have as much right to claim balkan as our origin
You have much I2a2 wich is slavic and has its origin in eastern europe

[Kanuni]

Sure that is not impossible.

lets say now this is true
"Genetic studies shows that Serbs are in fact of predominantly Balkan genetics (indigenous to the region[41][42]) and have very small amount of generally considered "Slavic" (R-M458, ranging from 0-12% in the Serbs, Albanians, Macedonians, Greeks and Bulgarians[43]) genes suggesting that Slavic culture and language was passed on by the Serbian "elite" to the Romanized Paleo-Balkan peoples of the conquered region (Serbian lands)."

shuld we now be considerd newcomers or dont we have as much right to claim balkan as our origin

Things should not be taken out of context.

R1a1a was solely a Proto-Indo European haplogroup because they were really patriarchal.But Slavs were not so homogenous, rather a mixture of some haplogroups but mainly I2a2+R1a1a and some Neolithic EV13 and G2.

[Geronimo]

Oi! Serbian culture is not Slavic at all. If you want to describe it then Balkan-Ottoman is the right term to describe Serbian culture.

You surely change opinions more often than I pants :) If serbian culture is a balkan-ottoman one then it is newer than it would've been if it was just slavic.

[poiuytrewq0987]

You surely change opinions more often than I pants :) If serbian culture is a balkan-ottoman one then it is newer than it would've been if it was just slavic.

Believe however you want. Serbian culture is very similar to other Balkan cultures. There are only regional distinctions that make Balkan cultures unique. This commonality emerged during the Ottoman Empire hence the term "Balkan-Ottoman".

[Guapo]

Serbian/Mac culture is Slavic

[Minesweeper]

Then a Serbian Princip sparked off WW1 and the decline of Europe with the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand in 1914.

The war would have started anyway. You know how many events could have sparked the war before the assassination? Moroccan crisis or Annexation crisis, for example.

If you are familiar with pre-WW1 situation in Europe, you'll understand that great powers were preparing for slaughter decades before 1914.;)

[ikki]

We both know that the modern Serbs are not pureblood Slavs from Russia. Rather they are a mixture of Slav-speakers from Northeast Europe, indigenous peoples of the Balkans, Anatolians, Turkics, Italians... like every other ethnic group in the Balkans.

Raska's logic is that since Serbs are a mixture of people including Illyrians of past and since he is from the modern region of Serbia means he was indeed Serbian. That's just stupid because the modern Serbian identity never existed before the 19th century. The Slav speakers of today's Serbia suddenly adopted their Serbian identity when they wanted to break away from the Ottoman Empire to form their own Christian nation.

Now you are being silly. Something that selfidentified as serbs were around before the turks came to the balkans. They hadnt been around for terribly many centuries, but...

[poiuytrewq0987]

Now you are being silly. Something that selfidentified as serbs were around before the turks came to the balkans. They hadnt been around for terribly many centuries, but...

Not exactly true. The Serbs were wiped out in the battle for Kosovo. Only few remnants survived in the aftermath. Needless to say, there were far too few Serb migrants who survived the battle to convert the Balkans to their dynastic identity. The Serbian name was only revived because of the Church that had carried on since the medieval age.

[Mordid]

neo-ottoman pride world wide!

[Sorab]

We both know that the modern Macedonians-čokalije are not pureblood Slavs from Russia. Rather they are a mixture of Slav-speakers from Northeast Europe, indigenous peoples of the Balkans-Celts,Illyrians, Anatolians, Turkics, Italians,Vlachs ,Greeks ,Bularians,Kumans... like no other ethnic group in the Balkans.

fixed
У вези са тим, позната је пропаганда хрватске историографије, која србски народ покушава представити као "производ турско-фанариотске реторте", желећи тиме да искаже како Срби наводно у највећем делу свога расног бића, нису Словени па чак ни Индоевропљани.

Такве, ничим аргументоване бесмислице, које потичу од искомплексираних србомрзачких "научника" који услед ништавности сопствене "националне" идеје, покушавају кривотворити србску, убедљиво је разобличавао један од највећих србских интелектуалаца протеклог века, Лазо М. Костић, у свом изванредном делу "Образовање и одржање српске нације" позивајући се на мноштво релевантних докумената, односно записа познатих европских историчара и других научника који су се бавили историјом ових балканских подручја. Па тако, о наводном крвном мешању Срба са турским окупатором, Костић пише следеће:
"Срби су се најчишће расно и ментално одржали под Турцима... сви страни писци од угледа истичу колико је баш српско ропство под Турцима њему послужило и помогло да одржи своју етничку чистоту. Срби су тада били просторно изолирани, а та изолираност се показала као оклоп који није пуштао стране утицаје на српски народ." [16]

Тим поводом, Костић цитира мноштво немачких, француских и других углавном западних аутора, чији су списи међусобно сагласни у ставу да су Срби махом били сасвим изоловани од турског окупатора.

Па тако, немачки историчар Јохан Лангер, у једној расправи издатој од стране Бечке академије наука, пише следеће: "Оно што је у Енглеској, Француској и другде било могуће, да се ранији становници стопе са усељеним завојевачима у једну нацију, то је било неизводљиво у Турској... Њихово порекло (турско), њихов низак културни ступањ, њихова дивљаштина, а надасве вера, довели су их у неизгладиву противност ка хришћанским становницима њихова царства.." [17]

Пруски гардијски официр Ото Пирх, који је 1829. године посетио Србију, овако је писао о последицама србског робовања под Турцима: "Уништење је било заиста политичко, али не морално, не физичко. Царство српско је било пропало, али не народ. Како се, пак, може један народ вековима одржати без политичке егзистенције? Овде су наишле надасве повољне околности.
Физичко одржање нације, било је могуће начином како су Турци држали земљу... То није била државина (посед) турског народа, турских сталних становника у маси, већ увек само турске војне власти." [18]

Француски историчар Ернст Дени, писао је такође на ову тему:

"Доминација муслимана, дивља и крвава, била је мање продорна и мање наједајућа (нагрзајућа) него подмукла предусетљивост осталих непријатеља, који, нападајући народну душу неумољивом инфилтрацијом, угрожаваху расу апсорбовањем и уништењем... Срећом, тврдоћа народа је добра, и на овом опором металу страна киселина не нагриза тако лако." [19]

Швајцарски пуковник и познати војни писац В. Ристов, такође је писао о животу балканских народа у турском ропству:

"Сама околност да су се Турци концентрисали у градовима била је за цивилизацију утолико пробитачна што су хришћанска племена на балканском полуострву сачувала своју народност прилично чисто и увек су се могла сматрати потпуно одвојена од њихових господара и угњетача." [20]

Једним од кључних елемената за очување расног идентитета србског народа, како под Турцима тако и под Бечом и Пештом, Костић сматра православну хришћанску веру србског народа, и тим поводом, цитира знаменитог руског византолога Георгија Острогорског:
"У вековима турске владавине беше православна вера Грка, Бугара и Срба израз њихове духовне и народносне посебности, она је сачувала балканске народе од распада у турској бујици." [21]

Поводом улоге православне вере као бране мешању крви србског народа са другим народима у Аустро-Угарској, Лазо Костић, позивајући се на једну студију из 1875. године која је објављена у ондашњем водећем немачком географском часопису, пише:

"И наш народ у Хабзбуршкој монархији, иако антропогеографски испремешан са иноверјем, био је њој духовно стран и са веома мало мешања. Вера га је штитила од мискуитета. Било је нешто претакања Грка и Цинцара односно Влаха у Србе, али процентуално незнатно. Било је и напуштања своје вере и народности. Али они који су остајали у својој вери одржавали су националну, верску и расну чистоту до крајњих граница. Тешко да је иједан народ у монархији тако бдио над овим као Срби" [22]

Што се тиче крвног мешања Срба са другим балканским народима који су живели међу Србима, Костић пише: "У Србији је било мешавине са Грцима и Цинцарима, али само у варошима, и то у много мањим бројним размерама него што се мисли. Али су села остала нетакнута. Ту никакве мешавине са инороднима није било. Нити је било друге вере (ње није било практично ни у варошма), нити је било друге православне народности са којима би се крв измешала. Сва новонасељена лица, била су најчишћи Срби из Рашке, Херцеговине, Босне, Црне Горе, Јужне Србије, Војводине. Мало је где у свету било тако чистог елемента у биолошком погледу...

Француски дипломат и књижевник Рене Мије писао је... поводом пута у Србију између осталог и ово: «Можда нема у Европи расе чистије од сваке мешавине, нити противније свакој смеси... Срби примају радо странце за неко време; али они одстрањују онога ко покушава да се угњезди код њих». [23]

Још један Француз, Ами Буе, као познати етнограф и балканолог, поредећи расни субстрат код Грка и Срба, писао је: "Грчка популација је хетерогена смеса Грка, Арнаута, Словена, Влаха итд... Напротив, Срби из Србије формирају... једну једину компактну масу Словена грчког обреда." [24]