Is Nagorno-Karabakh Armenian or Azerbaijani land?

[Albion]

In your opinion, does Nagorno-Karabakh rightfully belong to Armenia or Azerbaijan?
And what of other Armenian territories in Georgia and Eastern Turkey?


I tend to take the Armenians side on the territorial disputes. I think Nagorno-Karabakh should be incorporated into Armenia with a corridor linking it.

[Armenian Bishop]

Before I vote on the poll, I would like to understand it better:
What do each of the responsive categories represent? And, how do I give an appropriate answer to the poll?

Nagorno-Karabakh should be part of Armenia?
* Yes- Non-Armenian vote ... What does this reply mean, and for whom?
* No - Non-Armenian vote ... What does this reply mean, and for whom?
* Yes - Armenian vote ... What does this reply mean, and for whom?
* No - Armenian vote ... What does this reply mean, and for whom?

Thank You, for opening this Thread. I would like to reply to the poll, as soon as possible.

[Scrapple]

Before I vote on the poll, I would like to understand it better:
What do each of the responsive categories represent? And, how do I give an appropriate answer to the poll?

Nagorno-Karabakh should be part of Armenia?
* Yes- Non-Armenian vote ... What does this reply mean, and for whom?
* No - Non-Armenian vote ... What does this reply mean, and for whom?
* Yes - Armenian vote ... What does this reply mean, and for whom?
* No - Armenian vote ... What does this reply mean, and for whom?

Thank You, for opening this Thread. I would like to reply to the poll, as soon as possible.

Here is how I interpreted it: Non-Armenian means someone with no Armenian ancestry, Armenian means someone with Armenian ancestry. So you should pick the options that say Armenian vote since you have Armenian ancestry.

I voted Yes - Non-Armenian vote so that means I have no Armenian ancestry but I do think N-K should be part of Armenia.

[Albion]

* Yes- Non-Armenian vote ... What does this reply mean, and for whom?
* No - Non-Armenian vote ... What does this reply mean, and for whom?


These options are for people who aren't Armenian or of Armenian ancestry. I'd like to see what the rest of the world thinks about this issue. :thumb001:


* Yes - Armenian vote ... What does this reply mean, and for whom?
* No - Armenian vote ... What does this reply mean, and for whom?

These two options are for Armenians or people of some Armenian ancestry to vote. I highly doubt there's any Armenian out there who'd click "no", but you never know. ;)

[Loddfafner]

I am generally hostile to irredentism but the case of Nagorno Karabakh is one of the most compelling claims anywhere.

[Sikeliot]

I said yes.

[Armenian Bishop]

Here is how I interpreted it: Non-Armenian means someone with no Armenian ancestry, Armenian means someone with Armenian ancestry. So you should pick the options that say Armenian vote since you have Armenian ancestry.

I voted Yes - Non-Armenian vote so that means I have no Armenian ancestry but I do think N-K should be part of Armenia.

Thank You, for clarifying it! I understand now. Have a wonderful day.

[Osweo]

In your opinion, does Nagorno-Karabakh rightfully belong to Armenia or Azerbaijan?
And what of other Armenian territories in Georgia and Eastern Turkey?
The Purple boundary here is fair, near enough.
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg12/scaled.php?server=12&filename=myfixhayastan.jpg&res=medium
It's from the Treaty of Sevres, after the Great War. Notice how the Georgians are also united with their linguistic cousins in Lazistan, partly in compensation for loss of majority Armenian areas within their present republic (whose lines were drawn by Stalin).


I tend to take the Armenians side on the territorial disputes. I think Nagorno-Karabakh should be incorporated into Armenia with a corridor linking it.
Aye, but no need for a corridor. The two territories should be more firmly linked, and indeed already are. My Tsarist period maps don't show the intervening territory as predominantly Turkic, anyway. If anything, there were more Kurds there than Azeris in 1860ish.

[Osweo]

I highly doubt there's any Armenian or people of some Armenian ancestry out there who'd click "no", but you never know. ;)
Thousands of Turks...

[Onur]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45001

[Armenian Bishop]

The Armenian Stronghold in Nogorno-Karabakh, also known by its Armenian name Artzakh, is more than a political struggle provides territorial integrity, but a question of human rights, as well. Armenia's historical claims to the Armenian Highland Areas are valid, supported by the data of historical maps which date back to the days of the Roman Empire, despite that Azeris and Turks claim that Azerbaijan's territorial integrity was violated.

The Nogorno-Karabakh struggle evolved into a full scale war between the Armenians in Artzakh, with their alliances, and the Azeris of Azerbaijan, with their alliances. Artzakh's primary allies have been Armenia, Russia and Iran. Azerbaijan's primary allies have been Turkey, Pakistan, Afghanistan (including the Taliban), Israel, Chechnya, and other Islamic States as well.

The USA has given aid and comfort to both sides in the conflict, and so too with some other Western Countries.

During the days of the USSR, the Soviets tended to favor the Azeris over the Armenians, in part, because the Bolsheviks in the early 20th Century yielded much Armenian territory to Azerbaijan, Turkey, and even Georgia. To uphold the status quo, the Soviets tended to side with the Azeris, but Russia turned against Azerbaijan, after witnessing numerous Azeri human rights violations, in their own political neighborhood.

[Armenian Bishop]

There were numerous human rights violations, perpetrated by the Turkish Azeris in Azerbaijan, especially during the years just prior to the collapse of the USSR, and shortly after as well (1988-1992). This Documentary gives a description of some of the terror and murder perpetrated by Azeris, during those years.

eHIriN_28hY

[Albion]

Thousands of Turks...

They don't count. Somehow I doubt they'll take the Armenian side on this anyway.

[Minesweeper]

It should. Against the Turkic Muslims on all fronts.:thumb001:

[Armenian Bishop]

In your opinion, does Nagorno-Karabakh rightfully belong to Armenia or Azerbaijan?
And what of other Armenian territories in Georgia and Eastern Turkey?

I tend to take the Armenians side on the territorial disputes. I think Nagorno-Karabakh should be incorporated into Armenia with a corridor linking it.

Thank You! The Lachin Corridor serves as a paved transportation highway that links Armenia with the Armenian stronghold in Karabakh, also known as Artzakh, but, Armenian Security Forces control everything between Armenia and Nogorno-Karabakh, all the way to the Iranian Border. A second transportation link is under construction to the North of the Lachin Corridor.

The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) has always recognized and appreciated the importance of the Lachin Corridor, but it has failed to comprehend the strategic importance of the entire swath of territory that lies between Armenia and Karabakh (Artzakh).

Without all of the security zones around the originally disputed area of Nogorno-Karabakh, the Armenian Defenses would be weakened. The entire Armenian population in Karabakh (Artzakh) would be put at risk of annihilation, including the women and children. But, the OSCE wants Armenia orchestrate a compromise, by turning over most of their security zones to Azerbaijan, despite that they're all historically part of the Armenian Highlands since antiquity. Despite overt military threats, voiced by the leadership of Azerbaijan, Armenian Negotiators have been manipulated into accepting many of the proposals for compromise, recommended by the OSCE.

www.armenianow.com/karabakh/36768/osce_minsk_group_france_mandate_eu

So, I would recommend that Armenia retain all of the security zones around the original disputed area, because without them, the original disputed area would be strategically compromised, and could conceivably be overrun by the Azeri Turks.

[Armenian Bishop]

The Purple boundary here is fair, near enough.
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg12/scaled.php?server=12&filename=myfixhayastan.jpg&res=medium
It's from the Treaty of Sevres, after the Great War. Notice how the Georgians are also united with their linguistic cousins in Lazistan, partly in compensation for loss of majority Armenian areas within their present republic (whose lines were drawn by Stalin).

Aye, but no need for a corridor. The two territories should be more firmly linked, and indeed already are. My Tsarist period maps don't show the intervening territory as predominantly Turkic, anyway. If anything, there were more Kurds there than Azeris in 1860ish.

You're 100% Correct, in this Post! The territorial integrity of Armenia has been seriously violated. Woodrow Wilson's proposal in the Treaty of Sevres was created to restore territorial integrity to Armenia, and give a place of refuge for genocide survivors, after World War I.

[Albion]

Thank You! The Lachin Corridor serves as a paved transportation highway that links Armenia with the Armenian stronghold in Karabakh, also known as Artzakh, but, Armenian Security Forces control everything between Armenia and Nogorno-Karabakh, all the way to the Iranian Border. A second transportation link is under construction to the North of the Lachin Corridor.

The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) has always recognized and appreciated the importance of the Lachin Corridor, but it has failed to comprehend the strategic importance of the entire swath of territory that lies between Armenia and Karabakh (Artzakh).

Without all of the security zones around the originally disputed area of Nogorno-Karabakh, the Armenian Defenses would be weakened. The entire Armenian population in Karabakh (Artzakh) would be put at risk of annihilation, including the women and children. But, the OSCE wants Armenia orchestrate a compromise, by turning over most of their security zones to Azerbaijan, despite that they're all historically part of the Armenian Highlands since antiquity. Despite overt military threats, voiced by the leadership of Azerbaijan, Armenian Negotiators have been manipulated into accepting many of the proposals for compromise, recommended by the OSCE.

www.armenianow.com/karabakh/36768/osce_minsk_group_france_mandate_eu

So, I would recommend that Armenia retain all of the security zones around the original disputed area, because without them, the original disputed area would be strategically compromised, and could conceivably be overrun by the Azeri Turks.

Yes, to have a territory completely surrounded by a hostile nation without a connection to the outside world is ridiculous.
Azerbaijan could blockade it, invade or do anything it wanted with it. The Lachin Corridor is a complete necessity.

[Armenian Bishop]

Yes, to have a territory completely surrounded by a hostile nation without a connection to the outside world is ridiculous.
Azerbaijan could blockade it, invade or do anything it wanted with it. The Lachin Corridor is a complete necessity.

Unfortunately, The Lachin Corridor isn't enough to guarantee security for Karabakh Armenians. It's only a tenuous and narrow strip of land, with a paved highway. But, that is one of the proposals advanced by the OSCE. Without all of the security zones that surround the original disputed area of Nogorno-Karabakh, the Armenians in Artzakh (Karabakh) would in fact be surrounded. But, that's one of the proposals, forwarded by the OSCE, for a negotiated peace.

Armenians need the area around Kelbajar, as well as Lachin, to connect the entire Western Border of Nogorno-Karabakh to the Eastern Border of Armenia. They also need the area around Fizuli, which gives Karabakh a solid border with Armenia's ally, Iran. And, the area Agdam, gives Karabakh a security zone to the East, to give additional protection for Armenian Civilians in their Artzakh Stronghold, at Karabakh.

Another Words, the Lachin Corridor isn't enough, because without the other Security Zones, Nogorno-Karabakh, the original area of dispute, would still be surrounded by hostile Azeri Turks on all Fronts. The Lachin Corridor would be a vulnerable tenuous supply link, vulnerable to Azeri aggression and military threats. To defend Karabakh, Armenians need a strategically sound position, and more than simply a Lachin Corridor.

Besides, all of those areas which Azeris claim are occupied territories, are in fact historically part of Armenia, from days of antiquity. Should Armenians be compelled to give them away, by the OSCE, then the remaining areas would be under duress of the equivalent of a death sentence.

[Albion]

Unfortunately, The Lachin Corridor isn't enough to guarantee security for Karabakh Armenians. It's only a tenuous and narrow strip of land, with a paved highway. But, that is one of the proposals advanced by the OSCE. Without all of the security zones that surround the original disputed area of Nogorno-Karabakh, the Armenians in Artzakh (Karabakh) would in fact be surrounded. But, that's one of the proposals, forwarded by the OSCE, for a negotiated peace.

Armenians need the area around Kelbajar, as well as Lachin, to connect the entire Western Border of Nogorno-Karabakh to the Eastern Border of Armenia. They also need the area around Fizuli, which gives Karabakh a solid border with Armenia's ally, Iran. And, the area Agdam, gives Karabakh a security zone to the East, to give additional protection for Armenian Civilians in their Artzakh Stronghold, at Karabakh.

Another Words, the Lachin Corridor isn't enough, because without the other Security Zones, Nogorno-Karabakh, the original area of dispute, would still be surrounded by hostile Azeri Turks on all Fronts. The Lachin Corridor would be a vulnerable tenuous supply link, vulnerable to Azeri aggression and military threats. To defend Karabakh, Armenians need a strategically sound position, and more than simply a Lachin Corridor.

Besides, all of those areas which Azeris claim are occupied territories, are in fact historically part of Armenia, from days of antiquity. Should Armenians be compelled to give them away, by the OSCE, then the remaining areas would be under duress of the equivalent of a death sentence.

I see. Well this is ideally how I'd like to see Armenia until the lands Turkey took can be reclaimed...

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/4193/armeniamapenglishpol4.jpg

I wish Azerbaijan would just renounce its claim to the region. I hate it when countries claim territories which don't rightfully belong to them and are not populated by their people based upon badly drawn borders.

[Hayalet]

I see. Well this is ideally how I'd like to see Armenia until the lands Turkey took can be reclaimed...

I wish Azerbaijan would just renounce its claim to the region. I hate it when countries claim territories which don't rightfully belong to them and are not populated by their people based upon badly drawn borders.
A bit contradictory there.

[Loddfafner]

I get the impression that the Nagorno-Karabakh issue is maintained by the Russians as a card to play in its great game, much like South Ossetia. Russia and America turn up, or lower, the heat on these little squabbles in the Caucasus and the Balkans according to their own agendas. Nationalists who are easily riled up about them are merely tools.

[Albion]

A bit contradictory there.

Well you would say that wouldn't you? :rolleyes2: But I don't think it applies when a population has been relatively recently forced out of territories or assimilated as in eastern Turkey.
Turkey forced away the Armenians and filled it full of Turks, Kurds and assimilated peoples in order to claim the region for Turkey. It is Armenian and you know it.

[Armenian Bishop]

I see. Well this is ideally how I'd like to see Armenia until the lands Turkey took can be reclaimed...

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/4193/armeniamapenglishpol4.jpg

I wish Azerbaijan would just renounce its claim to the region. I hate it when countries claim territories which don't rightfully belong to them and are not populated by their people based upon badly drawn borders.

The map you provided, of Karabakh and Armenia is a very good one. It shows all of the area controlled by Armenians, including The Republic of Armenia, and the Armenian Republic of Karabakh, to the East of Armenia. Karabakh Armenians can't afford to gift away any of their lands, especially because there could be mortal consequences.

[Hayalet]

It is Armenian and you know it.
I know the region has been under Turkish control for the last millennium and while there was an Armenian population that was forced out, they were a minority and that Armenians fought for it again in 1920 only to be soundly beaten.

[Osweo]

What the fuck are we even talking to Turks about this for? Piss off, Mehmet; we don't give a FUCK what you think.

[Hess]

My rule of thumb in life is, "whatever hurts the Saracens"

This would clearly hurt the Saracens, so I vote "yes"

[Padre Organtino]

I don't think that it has anything to do with Saracens since most Azeris are irreligious. I for one vote yes simply cause I don't see legitimate reasons for this territory to stay with Azerbaidjan.

[Hess]

I don't think that it has anything to do with Saracens since most Azeris are irreligious. I for one vote yes simply cause I don't see legitimate reasons for this territory to stay with Azerbaidjan.

Azeris still belong to the Islamic (Saracen) civilization, though. You don't have to be a religious Muslim to be part of Islamic Civilization.

[Padre Organtino]

Azeris still belong to the Islamic (Saracen) civilization, though. You don't have to be a religious Muslim to be part of Islamic Civilization.

Hm, I would definetely say that they are Middle Eastern (when I went from Georgia to Azerbaidjan it felt like I magically entered the new realm - so different were the attitudes of folks around me) but they are not the type to pose any threat to the West (except for some troublesome migrants).

[Armenian Bishop]

A bit contradictory there.

When accusing others, and their country of contradictions, first look at yourself in the mirror, you may find that Turkey has walked into a minefield of contradictions:

Turkey supports Azeri demands for restoration of territorial integrity for Azerbaijan, at the expense of the local population in Karabakh who demand self-determination. This despite that Armenia's territorial integrity was violated, when the Soviets gifted it to Azerbaijan, in the 1920's, and the liberation of Karabakh currently serves as a restoration of Armenia's territorial integrity in that region.

At the same time that they demand the restoration of territorial integrity for Azerbaijan, Turkey refuses to give restoration to Armenia's territorial integrity, with the return of Armenian territories, as determined by the Treaty of Sevres, at the conclusion of World War I. Therefore, Turkey is a bundle of contradictions.

[Osweo]

By the way, what about Nakhichevan? Is it not a problem for either Armenia or Azerbaijan (who presumably has logistical problems even communicating with the place)? How widespread is Armenian irredentism on this territory?

Seems a pretty isolated little enclave from Wiki;

Today, Nakhchivan retains its autonomy as the Nakhchivan Autonomous Republic and is internationally recognized as a constituent part of Azerbaijan governed by its own elected parliament.[72] A new constitution for Nakhchivan was approved in a referendum on November 12, 1995. The constitution was adopted by the republic's assembly on April 28, 1998 and has been in force since January 8, 1999.[73] However, the republic remains isolated, not only from the rest of Azerbaijan, but practically from the entire South Caucasus region. Vasif Talibov, who is related by marriage to Azerbaijan's ruling family, the Aliyevs, serves as the current parliamentary chairman of the republic.[74] He is known for his authoritarian[74] and largely corrupt rule of the region.[75] Most residents prefer to watch Turkish television as opposed to Nakhchivan television, which one Azerbaijani journalist criticised as "a propaganda vehicle for Talibov and the Aliyevs."[74]
Economic hardships and energy shortages (due to Armenia's continued blockade of the region in response to the Azeri and Turkish blockade of Armenia[citation needed]) plague the area. There have been many cases of migrant workers seeking jobs in neighboring Turkey. "Emigration rates to Turkey," one analyst said, "are so high that most of the residents of the Besler district in Istanbul are Nakhchivanis."[74] When speaking to British writer Thomas de Waal, the mayor of Nakhchivan City, Veli Shakhverdiev, spoke warmly of a peaceful solution to the Karabakh conflict and of Armenian-Azeri relations during Soviet times. "I can tell you that our relations with the Armenians were very close, they were excellent," he said. "I went to university in Moscow and I didn't travel to Moscow once via Baku. I took a bus, it was one hour to Yerevan, then went by plane to Moscow and the same thing on the way back."[55] Recently Nakhchivan made deals to obtain more gas exports from Iran,[76] and a new bridge on the Aras River between the two countries was inaugurated in October 2007; the Azerbaijani President, Ilham Aliyev and the First Vice-President of Iran, Parviz Davoodi also attended the opening ceremony.[77][78]

[Hayalet]

When accusing others, and their country of contradictions, first look at yourself in the mirror, you may find that Turkey has walked into a minefield of contradictions
I am not the Turkish government, which indeed contradicts with itself by its stance towards Karabakh, Kosovo and Northern Cyprus. Well, they can all be justified by a pragmatic way of pursuing national interests, but I think you understand what I mean.


Turkey refuses to give restoration to Armenia's territorial integrity, with the return of Armenian territories, as determined by the Treaty of Sevres, at the conclusion of World War I.
Is that really surprising? The Ottoman Empire collapsed, the Treaty of Sevres was annulled, the new Turkish state signed the Treaty of Lausanne with the opposing parties of Sevres.

[Armenian Bishop]

Hm, I would definately say that they are Middle Eastern (when I went from Georgia to Azerbaidjan it felt like I magically entered the new realm - so different were the attitudes of folks around me) but they are not the type to pose any threat to the West (except for some troublesome migrants).

Well, several years ago there was a news report about some Azeris who torched and burned an Armenian alive, somewhere in Russia. Then we have the beheading of Gurgen Magaryan, by Ramil Safarov an Azeri in Budapest, Hungary.

Safarov, and Azeris like him bring a plague of trouble, as far as I'm concerned. For more details, and reference information about the murder of Magaryan, read about it in the Armenian Sub Forum, in the thread: "Beheaded While Asleep."


Two days ago we were remembering Gurgen Margaryan...

Budapest Case,2004.

Murder of Lt. Gurgen Margaryan

http://budapest.sumgait.info/i/lt-gurgen-margaryan.gif

Azerbaijani killer

Ramil Safarov

http://forgenc.net/uploads/posts/2010-01/forgenc.net_shwz2trrr_ramil_seferov.jpg


BUDAPEST, HUNGARY February 19, 2004. Armenian citizen Gurgen Margaryan, 26 years old, was hacked to death while asleep by Ramil Safarov, a Lieutenant of the Azerbaijani Army. Both were participants of an English language training course within the framework of the NATO-sponsored “Partnership for Peace” program held in Budapest, Hungary. The murder occurred at 5 o'clock in the morning, while the victim was asleep.
This is how Gurgen's Hungarian roommate, Kuti Balash , remembers the evening before the murder: “Me and Gurgen were sharing a room at the dormitory. The evening before the murder I was watching a football match between Armenia and Hungary, while Gurgen was sitting at the desk preparing his homework. He just came back from the gym”. Staying with them on the same floor were participants of different nationalities, including Ramil Safarov and another Azerbaijani officer. Balash mentions that there were no conflicts among any members of the group. The subject of international conflicts was discussed only once, during the first day of getting acquainted, but nobody spoke of it afterwards.
On the evening of February 18th Balash had tea and went to bed, as he had fever, while Gurgen Margaryan kept on studying. Around 9:30 p.m. Margaryan went to visit another program participant from Armenia—Hayk Makuchyan—who was staying in another room.
Balash does not remember when Gurgen came back, but early in the morning he felt that someone turned on the light. He thought it was Gurgen returning to the room, but after hearing some muffled sounds, he turned his head away from the wall and saw the Azerbaijani officer standing by Gurgen’s bed, with a long axe in his hands. “By that time I understood that something terrible had happened for there was blood all around. I started to shout at the Azerbaijani urging him to stop it. He said that had no problems with me and would not touch me, stabbed Gurgen a couple of more times and left. The expression of his face was as if he was glad he had finished something important. Greatly shocked, I ran out of the room to find help, and Ramil went in another direction”.
What happened next testifies that the murder had been planned in advance. It was not a crime of a personal motivations between Gurgen and Ramil. Immediately after murdering Lieutenant Margaryan, Ramil Safarov went to the room of the second Armenian officer, to finish with him as well.
Later in an interview to the “Iravunk” Armenian newspaper Hayk Makuchyan revealed that neither Gurgen nor him had had any contacts with any of the Azerbaijani officers. “They were not of a communicative type. Usually, after classes, they went straight to their rooms”, said Hayk.
That morning, after committing his first murder, Ramil went to Makuchyan's room with an intention to kill him. In the corridor, meeting a classmate from Uzbekistan who came out of the room after hearing suspicious noise, Ramil offered him to come and assist him in killing the second Armenian. The Uzbek tried to calm the murderer down but did not manage to stop him. Afterwards everyone confessed that they were frightened to approach Ramil with a blood-stained axe closer than at three meters. Approaching Makuchyan’s room, Ramil tried to open it by shaking its handle. As Makuchyan confessed, he usually had a habit of locking doors, unlike Gurgen, but that night he forgot to do it, and the door was locked by his Lithuanian roommate. Being unable to open the door, Ramil started to shout out Makuchyan's name in a threatening voice. Half asleep, Hayk went towards the door to open it, but his Lithuanian roommate managed to save him for the second time. He stopped Hayk from opening the door, as he thought that there was a real threat in Safarov's voice and that he might be armed. To make sure, he phoned to another Lithuanian who lived at the same corridor asking him to check whether Safarov was armed and what was going on at all. Meanwhile, Safarov went to look for Hayk in the room of the Serbian and the Ukrainian roommates, showing them the blood-stained axe and stating that he thirsted for nobody's blood but Armenian. Hayk Makuchyan was told afterwards, that Ramil ran to the room of another Azerbaijani officer, told him something in Azerbaijani, and then ran and stabbed the door of Makuchyan’s room three times with an axe. By that time the second Lithuanian and the police approached. Being detained by the Hungarian police, Safarov confessed he had committed a murder. He also promised to kill another Armenian as soon as he was set free. His revenge was not against anyone particular, but against the whole Armenian nation.
Budapest Police Maj. Valter Fulop told reporters that Safarov committed murder with unusual cruelty. The victim's head was practically severed from his body.
Police said a political motive for the murder was among the possibilities being considered and were also looking into how the suspect obtained the weapons of murder. Hayk Makuchyan states that six days before the murder the whole group of the officers at the English Language course was taken to the excursion to Lake Balaton. None of the Azerbaijani officers was present. Afterwards it became known that on that particular day the axe was bought in one of Budapest stores.
The question if there were any conflicts between Margarian and Safarov was raised during the conversation with the press secretary of Hungarian police. The police questioned all students living on that floor of the dormitory. There was nothing said about any conflicts between Armenian and Azerbaijani officers. On the first days of the courses the Armenians greeted their Azerbaijani colleagues ex comitate but received no reply. Everyone knew there were no contacts between them.


“This crime is the logical consequence of Azerbaijan’s anti-Armenian hysteria and the recent bellicose propaganda with which the Azerbaijani society gets consistently infected. Such state policy has evidently crossed the line beyond which Azerbaijani official representatives commit cold-blooded murder,” the MFA statement says.

Victim, Gurgen Margaryan

http://www.panorama.am/g_image.php?id=88497&t=b

[Treffie]

What the fuck are we even talking to Turks about this for? Piss off, Mehmet; we don't give a FUCK what you think.

:D

They obviously think they have a say in the interests of their Azeri bruthas :p

[Mosov]

NKR is an example of a people expressing their desire for self-determination. Karabakh during the Soviet times was ceded to Soviet Azerbaijan as part of Stalin's divide and conquer strategy in the region. What he really did is put the seeds for conflict and blood. Not the first time Stalin has caused violence and death.


STEPANAKERT. – The Nagorno-Karabakh Republic’s (NKR) Declaration of Independence is not contrary to the provisions of International Law, stated University of Hamburg Professor, Doctor of Law Otto Luchterhand, during the international symposium, entitled “20th Anniversary of NKR Independence: Realities and Prospects,” which is underway in NKR capital Stepanakert.

Presenting a comparative and legal analysis of NKR’s independence, the Professor noted that the situation of Karabakh is more similar to that of Kosovo, as Karabakh, just like Kosovo, is in Europe. Otto Luchterhand also compared the two cases.

As per the German professor, the UN Court had decided that Kosovo was not breaching International Law by adopting its declaration of independence, and based on this, Otto Luchterhand pointed to the similarities and he also gave precedents whereby in Karabakh’s case the right for the self-determination of nations does not conflict with, and is sometimes preeminent to, the principle of territorial integrity.

“NKR’s Declaration of Independence is not contrary to the provisions of International Law. If UN Security Council recognizes Kosovo, it is obligated to also recognize Nagorno Karabakh,” Otto Luchterhand stated, and he called upon NKR’s officials to propagate this fact more actively.

[Armenian Bishop]

Azeris belong to the Islamic (Saracen) civilization, though. You don't have to be a religious Muslim to be part of Islamic Civilization.


Hm, I would definately say that they are Middle Eastern (when I went from Georgia to Azerbaidjan it felt like I magically entered the new realm ...


:D

They obviously think they have a say in the interests of their Azeri bruthas :p

Yes, That's True! The official position of the governments of both Turkey and Azerbaijan is that they consider themselves to be Turkish Blood Brothers. However, Azeris in Iran don't share that sentiment, more often than not, and they consider themselves be be more closely associated with Iranian Peoples. The infusion of Turkish influence in the Caucasus Region of Azerbaijan served to Turkify the politics of that country, but across the border in Iran, Azeris are very pleasant. It's what's in the soul that's the problem.

[Albion]

By the way, what about Nakhichevan? Is it not a problem for either Armenia or Azerbaijan (who presumably has logistical problems even communicating with the place)? How widespread is Armenian irredentism on this territory?

Seems a pretty isolated little enclave from Wiki;

It'd probably be better joining the Azeris in Iran...

[Armenian Bishop]

By the way, what about Nakhichevan? Is it not a problem for either Armenia or Azerbaijan (who presumably has logistical problems even communicating with the place)? How widespread is Armenian irredentism on this territory?

Seems a pretty isolated little enclave from Wiki;

Yes, it's an isolated Azeri enclave between Armenia, Iran, and Turkey, but was formerly part of Armenia, as evident in maps from antiquity. Iran was a benevolent ruler of the Nakichevan Area, with Juffa Armenian Cultural Metropolis, thriving for centuries, caught in the crossroads of civilization, it began to decline.

Turkey does much to furnish logistical needs for Azeris in Nakichevan.

Azeris ethnically cleansed Nakichevan, and all Armenians there were killed or fled for their lives. By 2006, Armenian Cemeteris in Nakichevan were systematically and deliberately destroyed. Azeri crews were filmed by Armenians across the border, as they took sledgehammers and other tools, pulverize, destroy, and ship away by railway, all that remained of Armenian Cemeteries in Nakichevan.

Nakichevan, as well as Karabakh, were gifted to Azerbaijan, by the Soviet Bolsheviks in the 1920's, both of which were still Armenian Strongholds; the Soviet Bolsheviks gifted the Armenian Stronghold of Javekhetia to Georgia; while, Kars and Ani, still within the realm of Armenia, were gifted to the Turks, by the Soviet Bolsheviks.

[Armenian Bishop]

Armenians Captured many Azeri Tanks, during the Karabakh Wars, 1988-1994. A number of the captured Azeri Tanks had the Turkish Star and Crescent Emblem still painted on them. Turkey furnished logistical and political support to Azerbaijan, during the Karabakh War.

[Onur]

Yes, to have a territory completely surrounded by a hostile nation without a connection to the outside world is ridiculous.
Azerbaijan could blockade it, invade or do anything it wanted with it. The Lachin Corridor is a complete necessity.
Thats the point already. More Armenian problems means more reasons to shout around. Armenia is a nation who gets feed by conflicts after conflicts.


Is that really surprising? The Ottoman Empire collapsed, the Treaty of Sevres was annulled, the new Turkish state signed the Treaty of Lausanne with the opposing parties of Sevres.
Didn't you know that the Armenian PM and several deputies goes to the grave of the man who wrote the treaty of Serves once a year and puts flowers all together.



I get the impression that the Nagorno-Karabakh issue is maintained by the Russians as a card to play in its great game, much like South Ossetia. Russia and America turn up, or lower, the heat on these little squabbles in the Caucasus and the Balkans according to their own agendas. Nationalists who are easily riled up about them are merely tools.
This is the first thing i like about Americans. They can see what people of Europe cannot because they look to picture without prejudices and with a broader view.

You are 100% right my friend. When Armenia started their campaign against
20% of Azerbaijani territory, Russia provided them military equipments and around one billion dollars money. This may also help you to understand the situation.

[Mosov]

You are 100% right my friend. When Armenia started their campaign against
20% of Azerbaijani territory, Russia provided them military equipments and around one billion dollars money. This may also help you to understand the situation.

And when ex-KGB chief and Moscow favourite came into power Azerbaijan didn't receive help from Moscow?? lol Moscow played both sides, but especially did this when Aliyev came to power as he was close with Russia. Azerbaijan though inherited much more Soviet armaments and infrastructure and had a clear military advantage over the Armenians. For example, Azerbaijan had been built with airfields, while Armenia was designated as a "buffer zone" by the Soviet Union and a battle field. Soviet Strategy in the area thus had favoured Azeris.

[Albion]

This is the first thing i like about Americans. They can see what people of Europe cannot because they look to picture without prejudices and with a broader view.

You are 100% right my friend. When Armenia started their campaign against
20% of Azerbaijani territory, Russia provided them military equipments and around one billion dollars money. This may also help you to understand the situation.

I think it's pretty plain for all to see really. They're probably in the Non-aligned movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Aligned_Movement) so as to prove to Russia that they won't be running off to join NATO any time soon.
Then again, I doubt Turkey would allow them to join anyway...

[PBachman]

I get the impression that the Nagorno-Karabakh issue is maintained by the Russians as a card to play in its great game, much like South Ossetia. Russia and America turn up, or lower, the heat on these little squabbles in the Caucasus and the Balkans according to their own agendas. Nationalists who are easily riled up about them are merely tools.

You are making comments with no respect to historical antecedents of the conflict. Let me educate you. First, Armenians did not fight the conflict. It was Armenians living on their land trying to fight for self-determination. As anyone can can see that no Armenian would by choice choose to live under a Azeri government after the pogroms that were conducted by Azerbaijan on its Armenian population. On one hand you have a hypocrites like Onur coming on the board claiming the "legality of the treaties" when it suits their interest, but fail to realize that in the process they undermine their own argument for Azeri "territorial integrity". Legally, Soviet international law mentioned in fine print that (in laymen terms) if the Soviet Union were to dissolve the areas would fall under the control of various post Soviet Social Republics that held the majority of population, meaning, all populations had a right to self-determination. Whether this was exercised for some or if some had the right to exercise is not the question. The reality is that people had the right and those that had the power to exercise did so.

Now, Onur you can continue arguing semantics when it suits your interest, as to me, you are a typically Turk with sneaky tactics. You pick and choose what suits your Turkish agenda and ignore everything else. To everyone this is a clear act of hypocrisy. I just find it funny how you get away with this kind of antics. If we are to even assume, lets just entertain the idea that the Armenian Genocide was no genocide, lets say it was a "civil war" or how you and every other Turk tries to portray it; let us assume you are right. How is the conflict between Armenians and Azerbaijan any different? First, clearly, we can't claim that you stole 90% of historic Armenia, but you can claim Armenians stole "20% of Azerbaijan" when in fact, both the legal and moral
argument is on the side of Armenia. It is just ridiculous. I find it funny that idiots like these are even given a podium.

Clearly, this is exactly why towards the twilight of Soviet Union the Azeri political elite tried to implement various pogroms and etc. in Azerbaijan to force Armenians out of region. However, as history has shown, this not only backfired on Azerbaijan, but also Turkey, America, Europe, and Russia, as most of these entities had a clear incentive to undermine Armenia and support Azerbaijan.

Furthermore, Loddfafner, you are actually wrong. Your analysis, again, highlights the limited depth of knowledge you have regarding the region. If indeed you are right that "right is might" then how come Armenians won Artsakh (Nagorno-Karabagh)? Hmm...I don't understand...you are claiming that there exists a "magic button" that Americans and Europeans can push to "solve problems", but to date, I don't think they can solve the problem between Armenia and Azerbaijan because there is no moral grounds to support Azerbaijan. If you claim you are "spreading democracy" and "are a force of good" how can you even take the side of Azerbaijan at mediation? You can't and that is why the problem can never be solved because Azerbaijan has oil and everyone knows that is the only reason why their even is mediation. The only reason we are even having this discussion is because Azerbaijan has oil.

Clearly, if it did not have oil there would be no debate that Armenians of the enclave are morally and legally entitled to separate from Azerbaijan and join with Armenia. There is no debate. Any debate leads to then, "ok, if you are right about xyz, please, by all means, enforce the ruling", but you can't, as if you step foot in Artsakh (Nagorno-Karabagh) as "liberators" you will shot dead as nobody in that region will give up an inch of land due to principal and the historical antecedents of the conflict. Then it becomes a question of "why are we here" and "what are we fight for". Nobody has an interest in those lands besides Armenians. I don't see any reason why anyone would even think about fighting against Armenians for a few miles of dirt. If Turkey loves Azerbaijan so much, let them give up parts of Eastern Turkey.

Finally, as if Turkey being supported by the American military industrial complex is not an instance of what you are claiming will happen. I don't understand. When I read some posts on this board I find it hilarious how hypocritical some comments are and if you are an astute reader of current events and history you will find these comments are just plain wrong. They are not based on any factual evidence. Turkey for most of the century has neither been a "middle-eastern democracy" nor has it been a "regional superpower". Ever since the decline of the Ottoman Empire post the battle of Vienna the Ottoman Empire just went into decline. The only reason it has survived so long is that Europeans in order to tip the scale on their internal conflicts over oil and oil pipelines arm Turks with guns, political capital, and wealth.

The reality is, whether non-Armenains like or not, Armenians are not going to give up any inch of land without a fight. If Americans, Russian, or others would like to fight on behalf of Azerbaijan or Turkey for that matter, by all means, let them. I don't see how it is even feasible to even return those land to Azerbaijan as the new generation would never opt to live under a Azeri government. The land is under the control of Armenia and Armenians even if is not recognized on paper. The reality on the ground has already settled the debate. End of debate. Anyone wants to argue, please, pick up guns and go to the front line if not, by all means, shut up and accept the outcome.




You are 100% right my friend. When Armenia started their campaign against
20% of Azerbaijani territory, Russia provided them military equipments and around one billion dollars money. This may also help you to understand the situation.

Right. You are so full of shit mate, but let us entertain your bullshit. Are you claiming Azerbaijan was not backed by oil revenues, Turkey, America, and Europe? IF you are, again, you are full of shit. This is ridiculous. At best you can argue it was an equal fight. The reality is much different. The Armenian army was so underfunded that they stole weaponry, tanks, and etc. from the Azeri army. Azerbaijan was so well funded that they hired Russians to fly the planes they had bought from the US because they did not have the knowledge to fly it themselves. They even got Chechen, Paki, and Afghan extremist to fight for them. They also had support from the UK, as they trained the Azeri army on behalf of British oil companies.

If you are claiming they got a "billion dollars in aid" and, at the time, Russia had a surplus in military armament, why then would they want to risk the lives of their fight force to steal tanks, weapons, and etc.? Does this make sense to you, as to me, it makes absolutely no sense why the Armenian side would do this? Please, stop the bullshit mate. You just can't accept the fact that your Turkish brothers lost "20% of their land". That is the reality.

[PBachman]

Onur, by the way, don't think we don't know the games you play. I find the poll even insulting. If you are asking everyone to vote, why would you separate it between Armenian and non-Armenian? Clearly, you are implying that it is only important that non-Armenian vote and the opinions of Armenians are not important? Guess so. If you did want to have an honest poll, you would not structure the poll in that manner.

Really, if you want to group all Armenians together, as if our opinions hold a bias, why even ask Armenians to comment? Clearly, you could have just not even asked our opinion. It would be more direct and to the point.

[Armenian Bishop]

Onur, by the way, don't think we don't know the games you play. I find the poll even insulting. If you are asking everyone to vote, why would you separate it between Armenian and non-Armenian? Clearly, you are implying that it is only important that non-Armenian vote and the opinions of Armenians are not important? Guess so. If you did want to have an honest poll, you would not structure the poll in that manner.

Really, if you want to group all Armenians together, as if our opinions hold a bias, why even ask Armenians to comment? Clearly, you could have just not even asked our opinion. It would be more direct and to the point.

Perhaps, Onur fails to see clearly about some political and historical realities, especially because his government of Turkey has promoted lies and falsehoods about Armenians. However, Albion is the maker of the poll in this Thread, not Onur who is blameless for anything that went wrong with this poll.

In fact, I'm rather glad that this poll was created by Albion: Voting in polls is a simple and direct way for members to make a statement about their viewpoints. It need not be said that Albion is a good friend of Armenians here -- he even created and maintains the "Supporters of Armenia" Social Group.

I like the idea that the Armenian vote is separate from Non-Armenian Votes, because it makes it clear that many Non-Armenians support the Armenian Viewpoint, in these matters; otherwise, people could question whether Armenians tilted the results. Also, it demonstrates that a sizable number of Armenians remain here at The Apricity Forum. The only thing wrong with it is that their is no category for Turkish and Azeri Voters, which would have tied up the loose ends.

[Albion]

They even got Chechen, Paki, and Afghan extremist to fight for them. They also had support from the UK, as they trained the Azeri army on behalf of British oil companies.

The UK will train almost anyone if they have the money or are considered strategically important. I agree though, there are a lot of oil interests in the region which would like to see Russia bypassed.
Back in my college days I remember people from the UAE military doing aviation degrees - after that they were going to a military college. Clearly this is designed to control the Persian Gulf because the UAE is to Britain what Saudi Arabia is to America.

As British troops are set to leave Afghanistan in the next few years they've asked to be able to travel through Kazakhstan (Pakistan having closed a lot of the border). In return the offer was to train some of their military.

Sadly Britain, America and NATO as a whole see the Middle East as different countries to be used for their own goals.


Onur, by the way, don't think we don't know the games you play. I find the poll even insulting. If you are asking everyone to vote, why would you separate it between Armenian and non-Armenian? Clearly, you are implying that it is only important that non-Armenian vote and the opinions of Armenians are not important? Guess so. If you did want to have an honest poll, you would not structure the poll in that manner.

Really, if you want to group all Armenians together, as if our opinions hold a bias, why even ask Armenians to comment? Clearly, you could have just not even asked our opinion. It would be more direct and to the point.

My fault I'm afraid.


I like the idea that the Armenian vote is separate from Non-Armenian Votes, because it makes it clear that many Non-Armenians support the Armenian Viewpoint, in these matters; otherwise, people could question whether Armenians tilted the results.

These are the primary reasons why I created the poll in that way. I wanted to see how many non-Armenians on here supported the Armenians on this.
The Armenian viewpoint is pretty obvious, I think it'd be very rare to find any Armenian who'd support Azerbaijan on this but I could hardly exclude Armenians from a poll about their own people. :thumbs up


Also, it demonstrates that a sizable number of Armenians remain here at The Apricity Forum.

Yes, and this is a very positive outcome of the poll.


The only thing wrong with it is that their is no category for Turkish and Azeri Voters, which would have tied up the loose ends.

I didn't think of it at the time, but there should be a separate Turkish / Azeri vote now that you mention it. However, we can mostly discern who the Turks and Azeris are by looking who voted.

[PBachman]

Perhaps, Onur fails to see clearly about some political and historical realities, especially because his government of Turkey has promoted lies and falsehoods about Armenians. However, Albion is the maker of the poll in this Thread, not Onur who is blameless for anything that went wrong with this poll.

In fact, I'm rather glad that this poll was created by Albion: Voting in polls is a simple and direct way for members to make a statement about their viewpoints. It need not be said that Albion is a good friend of Armenians here -- he even created and maintains the "Supporters of Armenia" Social Group.

I like the idea that the Armenian vote is separate from Non-Armenian Votes, because it makes it clear that many Non-Armenians support the Armenian Viewpoint, in these matters; otherwise, people could question whether Armenians tilted the results. Also, it demonstrates that a sizable number of Armenians remain here at The Apricity Forum. The only thing wrong with it is that their is no category for Turkish and Azeri Voters, which would have tied up the loose ends.


That is true, but then again, I don't really think it should matter, but I did not notice Albion made the thread. Irrespective, Onur needs to take his own advice. You know I don't like to dabble in these kinds of threads because they are meaningless, but I just can't stand the hypocrisy.

[PBachman]

My fault I'm afraid.


No it is cool. I just jumped to a bit of a conclusion without checking my facts. If anything it is my fault.

Yeah, I just can't stand on the sidelines on this thread. It is one thing to be fair and balanced, but on the other hand there exists a pretty obvious double standard when it comes to not only this issue, but other issues.

[Armenian Bishop]

"In December 2005, the Azerbaijani military razed to the ground about 3,500 khachkars - gigantic carved stone cross headstones, dating from the 15th century - in the Nakhichevan exclave on the Iranian and Turkish borders. The medieval cemetery originally held 10,000 of these exquisitely carved headstones. Armenians formed a majority in this region during the 17th to 19th centuries. The number of headstones - which hold both religious and cultural significance - was reduced to half during the soviet years, and in the last decade, a conscious effort to demolish them and remove all traces of Armenians resulted in the complete destruction and removal of all remaining monuments."

"The most recent effort to break up and remove the stone crosses was noted in December 2005. This week, clerics on the Iranian border photographed the barren cemetery and its new feature - a shooting range."

"The government of Armenia presented a formal complaint to UNESCO Director General Koichiro Matsuura on the destruction of monuments which form a part of the cultural patrimony of the world. In addition, the European Parliament, in February 2006, condemned the destruction of these irreplaceable treasures."


www.armeniaforeignministry.com/pr_06/060315_julfa.html


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khachkar_destruction_in_Nakhchivan

The once thriving Armenian population in Nakhichevan was ethnically cleansed by Azeris, during the decades that following the 1920's, when it was gifted to Azerbaijan, by the Soviets. Under Iranian administrations, Julfa, Nakhichevan thrived, but by the end of the 20th Century, and early in the 21st Century, Azeris engaged in premeditated acts of destruction, ultimately destroying the Armenian Cemetery in Julfa, Nakhichevan.

[Yaroslav]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/United_Armenia_.png

The TRUE map of Armenia. It is really unfortunate what Judeo-Turkish terrorists did to your nation. But time is coming when the land will be returned to its rightful owners, because that is God's will.

[Armenian Bishop]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/United_Armenia_.png


The TRUE map of Armenia. It is really unfortunate what Judeo-Turkish terrorists did to your nation. But time is coming when the land will be returned to its rightful owners, because that is God's will.

The Turks and Azeris, with the help of the Soviet Bolsheviks, really cut Armenia to shreds, and violated its territorial integrity. The map presented here is an excellent geographical definition of what Armenia should look like again, as defined by the Treaty of Sevres (August 1920).

The boundaries that define Armenia, in this map, are those designed and drawn up by US President Woodrow Wilson. The Treaty of Alexandropol (December 1920), as well as the Treaty of Lausanne (July 1923), were products of Kemal Ataturk's renegade Republic of Turkey, which brought duress to bear upon Armenia.

www.panarmenian.net/eng/news/31152/

The Soviet figurehead, Joseph Stalin, took a leading role in the negotiations and political manipulations which served to violate Armenia's territorial integrity, by gifting Armenian land to Azerbaijan, Georgia and Turkey. Stalin was at the forefront of the decision to gift Armenian Land to the Turks, at the Treaty of Kars (October 1923). There's no Statute of Limitations for crimes against humanity.

[Armenian Bishop]

During 1991 and 1992, Azeris used the surrounding cities of Khojalu and Shusha, as bases for the bombardment of Stepanakert, the capitol in the Armenian Stronghold of Karabakh. Beginning in September 1991, Azeris pounded Stepanakert with grad missiles, artillery shells and aircraft bombs, but failed to take the city despite the deaths and injuries of many Armenian men, women and children. After Khojalu fell to Armenians in February 1992, and then Shusha fell in May 1992, the worst of the shelling and bombardment of Stepanakert was finished. In Shusha, Armenians discovered that Azeris used Armenian Churches to store their missiles and artillery shells. With the fall of Agdam to Armenians in July 1993, only Azeri aircraft bombers could reach Stepanakert; ultimately, Armenians emerged victorious in 1994, and Stepanakert again thrives.


www.google.com/url?q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Stepanakert&sa=U&ei=zt2CT9blGqHliAKeqIW7Aw&ved=0CBcQFjAC&usg=AFQjCNHye4RJWsHV0VYrW9FzXZImQcyNtA

[Armenian Bishop]

p27H8E3J_vA

[Yaroslav]

Do you consider it Armenian or Azerbaijani land, please vote and explain your reasoning. I 100% consider it Armenian land.

[Artavazt]

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lBF3L45Lu-M

[Artavazt]

http://news.am/eng/news/106972.html

[Grumpy Cat]

Oops, I accidentally voted saying I was an Armenian. Please change.

[Georgian]

In your opinion, does Nagorno-Karabakh rightfully belong to Armenia or Azerbaijan?
And what of other Armenian territories in Georgia and Eastern Turkey?


I tend to take the Armenians side on the territorial disputes. I think Nagorno-Karabakh should be incorporated into Armenia with a corridor linking it.

In my opinion karabakh belongs to azerbaijan...

Armenians have no territories in Georgia! on the contrary they have our territory named Lorre!

I don't know if Turkey truly owns armenian territories or not. But i think so, because Turkey was an Empire and empire consists of Stolen territories...

I believe that these Territories are Georgian and armenians can't claim them:
http://www.picz.ge/img/s1/1206/27/e/eeaf91c03d85.jpg

[shshmuk]

***I believe that these Territories are Georgian and armenians can't claim them***

You can believe whatever you like or are taught, show whatever map you wnat to, but the historical reality is against your belief. And Armenians CAN CLAIM and very easily that the region of Lori, just as that of Artsakh (Nagorno-Karabakh) has always been an Armenian land. It's very easy. Just go travel in Lori and see the Armenian historical presence everywhere there.

The fact that once that Armenian territory was conquered by Georgia and made part of Georgia doesn't make it a Georgian land as you have never had there strong presence, neither demographically, nor culturally. All what one can see in Lori is Armenian since very ancient times. We have there even the tomb of St John of Odzun who was an Armenian catholicos in the 8th century. The tombs of such important Armenian vardapets as Hovhannes Sarkavag and Davit of Kobayr are also in Lori. The famous monaseries of Haghpat and Sanahin are all full of tombs of Armenian princes and noblemen. How then can this land be Georgian if it's full of Armenian historical presence and not Georgian? You don't know the history of that region well, that's why it's so easy to believe for you that if once that territory was taken from the Armenians and attached to your country, then this makes that land Georgian.

And where are the Georgians of Lori, one might ask? That part of the world has always been inhabited by the Armenians. If it were a Georgian land, it would have Georgian strong presence there, cultural and demographic. The presence of 1-2 Armenian Chalcedonic monasteries, like that of Akhtala, which once (and when!!! in the 12th century or so!!!) were subject to the Georgian Church and inhabited by Armenian and Georgian monks doesn't make the whole territory of Lory Georgian. If it were so, then the Armenians would claim even Tbilisi to be an Armenian land because in the 19th century most of the churches of Tbilisi were Armenian, not Georgian. Or, say, if a French Catholic order opens a monastery in, say, Colcatta and French monks or nuns together with Indian monks or nuns live in that monastery, this doesn't make the land of Colcatta French.

Go study history or, better, visit all the historic sites of Lori and examine yourself.

[Georgian]

You can believe whatever you like or are taught, show whatever map you wnat to, but the historical reality is against your belief. And Armenians CAN CLAIM and very easily that the region of Lori, just as that of Artsakh (Nagorno-Karabakh) has always been an Armenian land. It's very easy. Just go travel in Lori and see the Armenian historical presence everywhere there.


always part of armenia? :D:D It was Armenia who was always part of someone ;)From 978 till 1118 there was Kingdom of Lori. lori is ours since 1118 and was till 1921 when "reds" gave it to you. It was them who gave you those territories. Because you can't do anything on your own! Azers could easily take Erevan in 2 days if Russia wasn't on their way! Without Russia you are nothing!

Karabakh belongs to Azerbaijan! You are nothing but occupiers! The fact that these territories belonged to Armenia like 2000 years ago doesn't mean that it's yours!

If we were Like you, we would claim following territories:
http://image.geotorrents.com/images/02203261205042502043.jpg




And where are the Georgians of Lori, one might ask? That part of the world has always been inhabited by the Armenians. If it were a Georgian land, it would have Georgian strong presence there, cultural and demographic.

Almost every Georgian left region when USSR gave this territories to Armenia.



The presence of 1-2 Armenian Chalcedonic monasteries, like that of Akhtala, which once (and when!!! in the 12th century or so!!!) were subject to the Georgian Church and inhabited by Armenian and Georgian monks doesn't make the whole territory of Lory Georgian. If it were so, then the Armenians would claim even Tbilisi to be an Armenian land because in the 19th century most of the churches of Tbilisi were Armenian, not Georgian. Or, say, if a French Catholic order opens a monastery in, say, Colcatta and French monks or nuns together with Indian monks or nuns live in that monastery, this doesn't make the land of Colcatta French.



I Don't understand what you are trying to say... In your opinion the territory can be claimed by numbers of churches built there?! And what if I tell you that Armenians stole majority of Georgian churches in Armenia?


You Armenians think that Territories which belonged to "great Armenia" in II-I BC are your historical lands....

[Onur]

Karabakh belongs to Azerbaijan! You are nothing but occupiers! The fact that these territories belonged to Armenia like 2000 years ago doesn't mean that it's yours!

If we were Like you, we would claim following territories:
http://image.geotorrents.com/images/02203261205042502043.jpg

Almost every Georgian left region when USSR gave this territories to Armenia.
You are completely right. For the Azeris, not even "almost" but all the Azerbaijani Turks has been forcefully expelled out from current Armenia when USSR gave that territory to Armenia. Around ~400.000 Azerbaijani Turks left Armenia after 1920 and 1,3 million more left Karabakh in 1991 and currently not even single Azeri Turk lives in there. They ethnically cleansed these territories by killing and expelling out all the non-Armenian peoples with the help of Russians.

Armenian state`s sole reason of existence is to create some kind of block between Turkey and Azerbaijan and to the rest of Turkic states. Georgia couldn't fulfill this role because they are not hostile to the Turks, so the existence of Armenia was profitable for Moscow and still is, always will be.

[Sultan Suleiman]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/United_Armenia_.png

The TRUE map of Armenia. It is really unfortunate what Judeo-Turkish terrorists did to your nation. But time is coming when the land will be returned to its rightful owners, because that is God's will.

I doubt that there are enough Armenians left in Caucasus to fill out a fifth of that map. :D

[d3cimat3d]

I doubt that there are enough Armenians left in Caucasus to fill out a fifth of that map. :D

You shouldn't be talking, Srebreniak

[Sultan Suleiman]

You shouldn't be talking, Srebreniak

Just pointing out the facts little thing.

[Azalea]

Well said @ Onur

Here is a video of a Dutch Turkiologists speaking about the Karabag conflict and Russia's role in it. He also explains the divide and conquer strategy the Russians used to devide Turkic peoples. Too bad it's in Dutch, but there are Turkish subtitles for the Turkish users.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGcRSECMvJg

[shshmuk]

always part of armenia? :D:D It was Armenia who was always part of someone ;)From 978 till 1118 there was Kingdom of Lori. lori is ours since 1118 and was till 1921 when "reds" gave it to you. It was them who gave you those territories. Because you can't do anything on your own! Azers could easily take Erevan in 2 days if Russia wasn't on their way! Without Russia you are nothing!

Karabakh belongs to Azerbaijan! You are nothing but occupiers! The fact that these territories belonged to Armenia like 2000 years ago doesn't mean that it's yours!

If we were Like you, we would claim following territories:
http://image.geotorrents.com/images/02203261205042502043.jpg



Almost every Georgian left region when USSR gave this territories to Armenia.




I Don't understand what you are trying to say... In your opinion the territory can be claimed by numbers of churches built there?! And what if I tell you that Armenians stole majority of Georgian churches in Armenia?


You Armenians think that Territories which belonged to "great Armenia" in II-I BC are your historical lands....

You're greatly deluded, my friend. I told you that if you conquered Armenian lands and made part of Georgia once, it doesn't mean those lands are yours. It seems you have difficulty to understand that simple truth. You can't bring facts about Georgian presence in Lori. And lying about all Georgians living that region is not honest at all. Why did they left their land? Can you bring facts that there was persecution or war that made those people leave their homeland? When in 1920, prior to the Soviets establishment there, the Turks entered Lori and killed some 20000 Armenians there, my great grandfather was among them, as my grandmother is Loretsi, but no Georgian is mentioned to be killed in those times in Lori. Why? Because they didn't exist there. I haven't ever heard about Georgians living in that territory. Besides the Armenians, there were Russians and Greeks from Trapezund in Lori, but not Georgians.

The 2nd map which you show says "Georgia at peak of her might 1184-1230." This map shows the territory of Lori conquered by the Georgian King David in 1118-22 from the hands of Seljuks who ruled in Armenia at that time and given to Georgian Orbelis. The territory of Lori, as other territories of Armenia after the fall of Armenian last kingdom Bagratuni in Armenia proper, would always pass to this or that conqueror. Seljuks, Mongols, Georgians, Persians. Because the Georgians were more lucky than the Armenians to have their own kingdom for a longer time. In 1177 Lori was taken from the Orbelis and given to kypchak Khubasar. In 1185 Armenians again ruled there, Sargis Zakarian and his family. In 1236 when Mongols conquered that part, they put it politically in the Gyurjistan vilayet. However, whoever or whatever country conquered Lori, the inhabitants of Lori were always Armenians. After the Zakarians, the Arghutyan family was the ruler in Lori until the end of the 19th century. In 1555 Lori passed to Sefian Iran. Then again in 1762 your king Herakl conquered it. Then in 1801 Lori was taken by the Russians and became part of the Russian Empire.

As you can see, this Armenian territory had numerous conquerors but as it is not a Seljuk land, because once Seljuks conquered it, it is not a Mongolian land, because Mongols too conquered it, it is not a Persian land or Russian, because these too conquered Lori, so also it is not a Georgian land, only because you would conquer it. So show thousands of maps of those years when Georgia conquered Lori at different times, this will not make Lori Georgian, as it has always been an Armenian land, inhabited with Armenians.

When you bring the map of Georgia in 1920 showing Lori as part of Georgia, why don't you also show an earlier map or tell the story of how it happened that such a map could be created. I'll tell you the story. In December 1918 the Entente instigated war between the Republic of Armenia and Republic of Georgia for Lori. As a result, the Neutral Zone of Lori was created under the rule of an English general. You can see that neutral region in this map (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_First_Armenian_Republic_1918-1920.gif) where Lori is a disputed land between two republics. But in the autumn of 1920 the Georgians attacked Lori and conquered it. However, after several months, on February 11-12 of the year 1921, the Soviet Army took it back and gave to the Armenians. So the first map that you showed depicts Georgia of that short period, just several months. So are you honest when you show that map as a proof of Lori being a Georgian land?

I told you. Go to Lori and see the proofs of its being an Armenian land yourself. Just go and see the tombs of Kyurikyan, Zakarian and other Armenian princes or rulers there even from those times when Lori was conquered by the Georgians. You'll see Armenian inscriptions there, not Georgian. If you find the tombs of your Georgian ancestors or anything Georgian there, tell me.

Pls, bring facts to prove what you have written, to prove that Lori is a Georgian land. Name some famous Georgians from that region or at least not famous Georgians whom you know that have Lori origin. I named some famous ancient Armenians from Lori, can add also Anania of Sanahin (12th century), Ghukas Loretsi (15th-16th centuries), Hovhannes Tumanyan, the Armenian famous poet. My ancestors are partly from Lori and lived there for centuries, are your ancestors or of any of your Georgian friends from Lori? What historic or genetic memory do you have from Lori? You only have maps showing how brave your some ancestors were to fight and conquer others' lands.

Tell me, in which towns or villages of the Lori region Georgians lived?

Your maps prove nothing, as such maps could bring other nations too who once conquered Lori.

And when you again lie about Armenians stealing your churches in Armenia, you can't bring facts to prove them. You can talk only about Armenian Chalcedonic churches like Akhtala in which in very ancient times both Armenians and Georgians lived. But Armenians didn't steal anything from anyone and we don't hide the fact that those churches built by the Armenians first as churches of the Armenian non-chalcedonic Church became Chalcedonic for some time when Georgia was ruling in Armenian regions and thus became subject to the Georgian Church. However, they eventually again passed to the Armenian Church. So, who stole your churches? No one. These were Armenian churches, passed for some time to the Chalcedonic Armenians that were subjects of the Georgian Church, and then again were given to their right owner, the Armenian Church.

[shshmuk]

You are completely right. For the Azeris, not even "almost" but all the Azerbaijani Turks has been forcefully expelled out from current Armenia when USSR gave that territory to Armenia. Around ~400.000 Azerbaijani Turks left Armenia after 1920 and 1,3 million more left Karabakh in 1991 and currently not even single Azeri Turk lives in there. They ethnically cleansed these territories by killing and expelling out all the non-Armenian peoples with the help of Russians..

The same I could tell about the Armenians who left Azerbayjan after the pogroms in Baku and Sumgayit. Where are the Armenians that lived in Azerbayjan? And the war of Karabakh was started by you, the Azeri Turks. You count your victims, we'll count ours. Just you were not lucky at this time to win the battle. This happens. It were Armenians who would previously be conquered, now you. What's the problem? War is a war and has its rules. Next time don't massacre innocent people and don't start a war if you're afraid to lose.

[Onur]

The same I could tell about the Armenians who left Azerbayjan after the pogroms in Baku and Sumgayit. Where are the Armenians that lived in Azerbayjan?

And the war of Karabakh was started by you, the Azeri Turks.
Pogroms? You complain about pogroms in Azerbaijan after you expelled out millions of Azeris, brutally murder 10.000s of them and then occupy their country? I think Azerbaijanis were quite naive and forgiving during the pogroms, those Armenians in Baku were quite lucky because they could have been killed.

Azeri turks started war in Karabakh? Are you mad? Karabakh is an Azeri terriorty, so wtf you are talking about? Why would they start a war inside their own country?

It looks like we have another delusional Armenian again. They are like programmed robots, all of them repeating same false arguments. Where is Bozkurt_Karabash when we need him? :)

[The Lawspeaker]

uGcRSECMvJg

(bedankt, Anshina).

It's time for an exchange of land then: the former Western part of Armenia back to Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh to Azerbaijan and a reunification between North and South. So it would need to be an exchange of land between Armenia, Azerbaijan, Turkey and Iran. Furthermore: if Azerbaijan feels like it they should be able to join Turkey.

[shshmuk]

Pogroms? You complain about pogroms in Azerbaijan after you expelled out millions of Azeris, brutally murder 10.000s of them and then occupy their country? I think Azerbaijanis were quite naive and forgiving during the pogroms, those Armenians in Baku were quite lucky because they could have been killed.

Oh my naive friend, you have problems with time and chronology, or generally, logic.
Because first the pogroms and assassination of Armenians of Azerbayjan occurred, and only then the war and as a result the expulsion of Azeri Turks from Armenia.

"Millions of Azeris, occupy their country". Bla bla. Tell those tales to your children... Nagorno-Karabakh, more correctly, Artsakh, has always been an Armenian land, just taken by Stalin (like the other region of Armenia, Nakhijevan) and given to the "Caucasian Tartars' (as those Azeri Turks were called at that time) as a cake which the "Azeris" were unable to digest and now it is you that complain, not me, for the pain in your greedy Turkish stomach.

[Onur]

"Millions of Azeris, occupy their country". Bla bla. Tell those tales to your children... Nagorno-Karabakh, more correctly, Artsakh, has always been an Armenian land, just taken by Stalin (like the other region of Armenia, Nakhijevan) and given to the "Caucasian Tartars' (as those Azeri Turks were called at that time) as a cake which the "Azeris" were unable to digest and now it is you that complain, not me, for the pain in your greedy Turkish stomach.
You better get ready for your 2nd Armenian genocide propaganda because sooner or later, you Armenians will leave that Azerbaijan territory. It`s certain and it will be realized soon enough.

[Artavazt]

You better get ready for your 2nd Armenian genocide propaganda because sooner or later, you Armenians will leave that Azerbaijan territory. It`s certain and it will be realized soon enough.

Keep dreaming turk lol.

Karabagh has always beein mostly armenian territory. Before the war it was 75% armenian 25% azeri,now its 100% armenian :)

They have no where to go its their homeland,if you think that azerbeijan will be able to invade it again, you are dreamer, you will realize it sooner or later. Karabagh will get its dependence just like Ossetia,Abkhazia,Kosovo...etc

[Loki]

This is a tense place and a complicated situation between Armenia and Azerbaijan.

Your opinions, and ideas for a lasting resolution?

[alfieb]

It's de-facto its own country and du jure part of Azerbaijan. Naughty of you to put this here. :lol:

I think it's like Palestine and Kosovo. I doubt it will ever change and eventually the status quo will become the law of the land.

[Loki]

Well we don't have an Azerbaijan section, hence me posting it here :)

The territory is internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan.

[RussiaPrussia]

It's de-facto its own country and du jure part of Azerbaijan. Naughty of you to put this here. :lol:

I think it's like Palestine and Kosovo. I doubt it will ever change and eventually the status quo will become the law of the land.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Nagorno-Karabakh_Republic#Ethnic_groups_.5B6.5D_.5B7.5D

it actually was never inhabited by azeris in the first place, stalin just gace azeris the land so when they break up from the soviet union it would be easy to play them against each other to dominate them.

[alfieb]

Right, and the Golan Heights is recognized as Syrian. Doesn't effect Israel one bit. Armenia and N-K have no incentive to give the land back to the Azeris, and the Azeris have no reason to recognize the status quo.

[Yalquzaq]

The only lasting resolution will be kicking out Armenian forces out of Karabakh, either by force or other means.

alfieb

Big difference here is that the balance of power is not the same as in the case of Kosovo, Palestine or other conflicts.

[SILNI]

In 2001, the NKR's reported population was 95% Armenian

Historically , ethnically it belong to Armenians.

[Illancha]

Well tracing back to the origin of the conflict it was in fact instigated by Russia as many conflicts between Caucasian nations are. Divide and conquer is quite typical of the Russian strategy with regards to the Caucasus. Unfortunately due to short-sightedness or whatever other reason, the nations in question do end up engaging in hostilities with a reasonable amount of zeal and fervour.

Honestly, the solution to this conflict is quite a difficult one, but purely on the grounds of justice whichever ethnicity inhabited it first deserves it.

[alfieb]

The only lasting resolution will be kicking out Armenian forces out of Karabakh, either by force or other means.

alfieb

Big difference here is that the balance of power is not the same as in the case of Kosovo, Palestine or other conflicts.

I doubt Azerbaijan will ever do that, because the Armenians are tight with Russia. Do you want to be the next Georgia?

[Yalquzaq]

I doubt Azerbaijan will ever do that, because the Armenians are tight with Russia. Do you want to be the next Georgia?

Azerbaijan is not Georgia, nor is the relations between Azerbaijan and Russia like that of Georgia-Russia (Russian-Georgian relations had been very tense even before the start of full-blown hostilities, since Saakashvili came to power). The trade has reached all-time high figures, Azerbaijan's second most important arms supplier is Russia (after Israel). Actually, if there is one thing I find it hard to believe, is that Russia would openly fight Azerbaijan while selling their latest arms.

Of course Russia is in fact a protector of Armenia through CSTO, but Karabakh is within Azerbaijan, not Armenia. And Russia recognizes Karabakh as Azerbaijani land. Armenian officials, including their president said that they would openly call for CSTO aid in a war against Azerbaijan, but I don't know how possible this is, other than a limited involvment perhaps. But anyway, we cannot see the future, this is only an assumption on my part.

[Artavazt]

Right, and the Golan Heights is recognized as Syrian. Doesn't effect Israel one bit. Armenia and N-K have no incentive to give the land back to the Azeris, and the Azeris have no reason to recognize the status quo.

You are right my friend,but allow me to mention some little differences between the case of
Karabakh and Golan.

The Golan's population was 100% arabic durzi before the war between israel and syria in 1967.
The karabakhs population was 75% armenian before the war.
The Golan's population is still more than 75% Durzi arabic after more than 40 year of isreali occupation.
The karabakhs population is 99% Armenian since 1994.
The 1967 war was complete israeli agression on syria and some other countries.
The war against azerbeijan has all started with peacefull protests

"On February 13, 1988, Armenians in Karabakh, then an autonomous oblast in the Azerbaijani Soviet Socialist Republic, began demonstrating in their capital, Stepanakert, in favor of unification with then Soviet Armenia. Six days later they were joined by mass marches in the Armenian capital of Yerevan, with the Soviet of People’s Deputies in Karabakh voting overwhelmingly on February 20 to request the transfer of the region to Armenia."
http://www.armenianow.com/karabakh/43478/armenia_karabakh_stepanakert_liberation_anniversar y_rally

It is also wrong to say that it was a war between republic of Armenia and republic of Azerbeijan.
It was a war between karabkhi ethnic armenian seperatists and republic of azerbeijan,and of course
some armenians from republic of Armenia,armenian diaspora even the government of Armenia itself
have supported ethnic karabakhi armenians which is so normal i think.

[Loki]

It was traditionally Azeri lands, if I recall correctly.

[Loki]

See here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLI99q6Qbyo

[RussiaPrussia]

Well tracing back to the origin of the conflict it was in fact instigated by Russia as many conflicts between Caucasian nations are. Divide and conquer is quite typical of the Russian strategy with regards to the Caucasus. Unfortunately due to short-sightedness or whatever other reason, the nations in question do end up engaging in hostilities with a reasonable amount of zeal and fervour.

Honestly, the solution to this conflict is quite a difficult one, but purely on the grounds of justice whichever ethnicity inhabited it first deserves it.

dude you always do like its russias intention, stalin gave it azeris on propose so russia would mediate their conflict and so are all central asian conflicts, all central asian countries have weird borders where the capital is near the border to the other country. And its not only these people who suffer with this wild borders but also russians them self, as all of north kazakstan is actually russian land. Like i said the borders of all soviet countries are made to have ethnic conflict so russia is forced to control them again.

[Yalquzaq]

How could Stalin give Karabakh to Azerbaijan when it was already a part of Azerbaijan? See the borders of 1918-1920 Azerbaijan Republic

Opposite of this, Zangazur and Goycha was given to Armenia, the territority between Nakhchivan and Azerbaijan proper. As for Armenian population there, this was a result of a century old relocation process.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Azerbaijan_Democratic_Republic_1918_20.png

And since you are quick to pronounce Karabakh as an "Armenian land", see the territories innhabited by Azerbaijani Turks in present-day Armenia during 1886-1890 period, decades after relocation of Armenians. Now there is no one remaining in their native lands, so what should we make out of it? Can you really claim that Karabakh is an "Armenian land"?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Azerbaijanis_in_Armenia_1886-1890.PNG

[alfieb]

It was traditionally Azeri lands, if I recall correctly.

Only thanks to Stalin (in the 1920s I want to say.) Pre-USSR it was Armenian.


How could Stalin give Karabakh to Azerbaijan when it was already a part of Azerbaijan? See the borders of 1918-1920 Azerbaijan Republic

Opposite of this, Zangazur and Goycha was given to Armenia, the territority between Nakhchivan and Azerbaijan proper. As for Armenian population there, this was a result of a century old relocation process.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Azerbaijan_Democratic_Republic_1918_20.png

FYI, Yerevan, the capital city of modern-day Armenia, had an Azerbaijani majority throughout the 1800s, what should we make out of it? Although it is actually an Azerbaijani city, I don't see anyone claiming it to be a part of Azerbaijan.

Or not. Haha.

[Yalquzaq]

Only thanks to Stalin (in the 1920s I want to say.) Pre-USSR it was Armenian.

It wasn't, see the above map.

If its about population size, then much of Armenia should had been given to Azerbaijan. Not to mention that most of Armenian population in region, like mentiond, was artifically relocated from somewhere else.

[Artavazt]

How could Stalin give Karabakh to Azerbaijan when it was already a part of Azerbaijan? See the borders of 1918-1920 Azerbaijan Republic

Opposite of this, Zangazur and Goycha was given to Armenia, the territority between Nakhchivan and Azerbaijan proper. As for Armenian population there, this was a result of a century old relocation process.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Azerbaijan_Democratic_Republic_1918_20.png



From where did you bring that map ?
And its quiet funny map , it supposes that azerbeijan had exactly the same borders
that it has today with Russia (Dagestan) but different borders with Armenia and Georgia.
Allmost all caucasian/anatolian countries had completly different borders with their neighbouring countries in that era.
http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/9031/229repofarm19181920.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/826/229repofarm19181920.gif/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Nice try to produce a fake map to support your cause.
But you should try harder next time.

As for the joke of Yerevan beeing Azeri city or having major azeri population,
im not even going to answer,i just wish you and all azeri diplomats to repeat this joke,
it will show what kind of sick indivuals you are and speed up the process of karabagh's
independence recognition.

[Hoca]

I already said it in the other post. Azerbaijan should try to dismember Armenia from Russia through economic and political means. When Russia steps aside and looks the other way. Karabakh issue will be solved within couple of weeks.

[gregorius]

It wasn't, see the above map.

If its about population size, then much of Armenia should had been given to Azerbaijan. Not to mention that most of Armenian population in region, like mentiond, was artifically relocated from somewhere else.

I once told you very clearly how everything is in this thread :). check it again if you want.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?67007-Why-Armenia-is-not-popular-in-the-same-way-that-Greece-is/page7

[Loki]

Only thanks to Stalin (in the 1920s I want to say.) Pre-USSR it was Armenian.


You should watch that video I posted. It was Azerbaijani, before Armenians migrated there in the 19th century and later.

[Yalquzaq]

http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/9031/229repofarm19181920.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/826/229repofarm19181920.gif/)


The source for your map is not reliable (armenica.org), what I posted is the actual borders, outlined in red. Lands claimed by Azerbaijan back then is not included in that.

Yerevan was the center of Irevan Khanate before being annexed by Russian Empire and it had indeed a majority Azerbaijani population, this is documented by Russians themselves.

[Artavazt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmoIrGfjA1c

[gregorius]

See here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLI99q6Qbyo

Nice video made by a couple of kids :) acting like there was no history before this

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?67007-Why-Armenia-is-not-popular-in-the-same-way-that-Greece-is/page7

[Yalquzaq]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmoIrGfjA1c

Heritage of Caucasian Albania (like the so-called "Armenian churches" in Karabakh and many parts of Armenia itself), thank you.

[RussiaPrussia]

I already said it in the other post. Azerbaijan should try to dismember Armenia from Russia through economic and political means. When Russia steps aside and looks the other way. Karabakh issue will be solved within couple of weeks.

it would be great we could finnaly justify regime change in aizerbaidjan

[gregorius]

The source for your map is not reliable (armenica.org), what I posted is the actual borders, outlined in red. Lands claimed by Azerbaijan back then is not included in that.

Yerevan was the center of Irevan Khanate before being annexed by Russian Empire and it had indeed a majority Azerbaijani population, this is documented by Russians themselves.


Yup because the armenians where deported from yerevan by the safavid rule. So its logical the azeri's where the majority than for a while. Then when the russians came into power armenians came back to yerevan. I think its still funny you think that Yerevan is historical azeri land. We had this conversation 3 times.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?67007-Why-Armenia-is-not-popular-in-the-same-way-that-Greece-is/page7

[Hoca]

I really don't understand Armenians. They keep holding on occupied territory that is not worth anything. No oil or something. Almost all borders are closest because of this. GDP per capita is 3000 dollar per year. Average Armenian lives in abject poverty, population is declining because of no hope in the future and immigration and still Armenia gives higher priority to land than their own people. The only thing Azerbaijan has to do is the waiting game. Eventually they will get it back. They already have much stronger army but time in on their side but sooner or later something will happen and Karabakh history will be set straight.

[SILNI]

You should watch that video I posted. It was Azerbaijani, before Armenians migrated there in the 19th century and later.
here:

The ancient population of the region consisted of various autochthonous local and migrant tribes who were mostly non-Indo-Europeans.[13] According to the prevailing western theory, these natives intermarried with Armenians who came to the region after its inclusion into Armenia in the 2nd or, possibly earlier, in 4th century BC.[14] Other scholars suggest that the Armenians settled in the region as early as in the 7th century BC.[15]

[Yalquzaq]

Yup because the armenians where deported from yerevan by the safavid rule. So its logical the azeri's where the majority than for a while. Then when the russians came into power armenians came back to yerevan. I think its still funny you think that Yerevan is historical azeri land. We had this conversation 3 times.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?67007-Why-Armenia-is-not-popular-in-the-same-way-that-Greece-is/page7

And I think its still funny that you repeat the same argument which I replied back several times.

The more numerous part of Armenians came from Ottoman Empire, not those that were supposedly "deported by Safavids".

[Artavazt]

Heritage of Caucasian Albania (like the so-called "Armenian churches" in Karabakh and many parts of Armenia itself), thank you.

lol its not about churches.It's about ancient armenian city that was built by armenian King Tigran the great.

You did not even watch the video.

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/5260/thefort.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/208/thefort.jpg/)

[gregorius]

It's something turks dont understand, We have suffered enough and seen how armenian ground is reduced little by little due to the turks.

[Yalquzaq]

I gave churches as an additional example. Churches, artifacts etc...there are many examples. This city is also the same, Albanian in reality, but made "Armenian".

[RussiaPrussia]

I really don't understand Armenians. They keep holding on occupied territory that is not worth anything. No oil or something. Almost all borders are closest because of this. GDP per capita is 3000 dollar per year. Average Armenian lives in abject poverty, population is declining because of no hope in the future and immigration and still Armenia gives higher priority to land than their own people. The only thing Azerbaijan has to do is the waiting game. Eventually they will get it back. They already have much stronger army but time in on their side but sooner or later something will happen and Karabakh history will be set straight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Nagorno-Karabakh_Republic#Ethnic_groups_.5B6.5D_.5B7.5D

because they was never any significant minority in first place the least there is one now. It would be pure turkic colonialism to give it up.

[SILNI]

I really don't understand Armenians. They keep holding on occupied territory that is not worth anything. No oil or something. Almost all borders are closest because of this. GDP per capita is 3000 dollar per year. Average Armenian lives in abject poverty, population is declining because of no hope in the future and immigration and still Armenia gives higher priority to land than their own people. The only thing Azerbaijan has to do is the waiting game. Eventually they will get it back. They already have much stronger army but time in on their side but sooner or later something will happen and Karabakh history will be set straight.
You are wrong
It is not armenians from armenia which insist on this but mainly armenians from Nagorno-Karabakh region.
The same as serbs from kosovo will never accept muslim rule , and they will fight against it even more than me , a serb who is not from kosovo.

[gregorius]

And I think its still funny that you repeat the same argument which I replied back several times.

The more numerous part of Armenians came from Ottoman Empire, not those that were supposedly "deported by Safavids".
So? what does it matter, Being a majority doesnt mean you are the right owner of the land. What is important is that the armenians were deported by the safavids and then the azeris where the majority. end of deal. When the the safavid rule was broken the land was ginvin back to the armenians , doesnt matter if the armenians where the majority or not.

[Artavazt]

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/7678/27188558.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/27/27188558.jpg/)

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/27188558

[Hoca]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Nagorno-Karabakh_Republic#Ethnic_groups_.5B6.5D_.5B7.5D

because they was never any significant minority in first place the least there is one now. It would be pure turkic colonialism to give it up.

Demographics only changed during stalin's time and his demographic games. That doesn't justify anything.

The people can still live there but the territory remains to tHIS day Azeri land and everybody sees Karabakh as occupied land by international LAW.

When Karabakh issue gets resolved. The people can stay if they want, but the Azeri that were driven out will move back in.

[Hoca]

What a great man Aliyev is. I really like him


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mox0_BGnjQE

[Yalquzaq]

So? what does it matter, Being a majority doesnt mean you are the right owner of the land. What is important is that the armenians were deported by the safavids and then the azeris where the majority. end of deal. When the the safavid rule was broken the land was ginvin back to the armenians , doesnt matter if the armenians where the majority or not.

You are arguing that the reason Azerbaijani Turks became a majority in Irevan was because Armenians were deported by Safavids to Iran (the same was often done with Azerbaijani Turks aswell, as the result of the policy of depopulating the frontier regions), and when Russians annexed the region, they "allowed Armenians back", but you forget that this alone would not be sufficent for an Armenian majority, and it wasn't, the demographics of Irevan was changed in favor of Armenians when the more numerous part came from Ottoman Empire, whom had no relation to these lands.

So in the end most of Armenian population in present-day Armenian (and Karabakh) was artifically created.

[SILNI]

The people can still live there but the territory remains to tHIS day Azeri land and everybody sees Karabakh as occupied land by international LAW.

What international "law"? Don't make me laugh.
In fact according to that law every province can legaly declare independency.
It is not about law but power. Law is changeable category.

[DJVT]

Nagorno-Karabach is Armenian land just like Kosovo belongs to Serbia,
@Hoca ask other members what they think of this issue.
If the International Comite would really see this as Azerbaijani Land they would try to blockade Armenia in all the posible ways, But this is not the case

[Artavazt]

but the Azeri that were driven out will move back in.

If they demand the right to move back in,then we can demand the right for hundreads
of thousands of armenians that were displaced from Baku and northern karabakh to move back in.
The history has teached us that we should live separately.
The best thing that azerbeijan can do is to be the first country to recognize the independence of
nagorni karabakh and open its embassy in the capital. Then we can live peacefully in the region.

[inactive_member]

This is what I know about the conflict. The facts may not be accurate.

The region was settled by Armenians a long time ago. Armenians were the prevailing majority throughout much of history. The population was 8.5-9.5(Armenians) : 0.5-1 (Everybody else) in the 20 th century. There is a history of dispute over the region between two country. In 1991 there was a referendum for independence in Nagorny Karabakh during which people voted for independence.

If the constitution of Azerbaijan (Karabakh had autonomy status) allowed for such referendums, then it’s the end of story. The two countries, Azerbaijan and Armenia should just leave the region alone. Just let them be.

[Hoca]

@Hoca ask other members what they think of this issue.

wHY DO I have to ask other members? Some Serb or Armenian is not an authority on international law.

I invite guys to 2013 where things are done with laws.

Karabakh is Azeri land by INTERNATIONAL LAW. No discussion possible. End of discussion.

[Loki]

The Caucasian Albanians were the first in the area, it seems. Those people were assimilated among Armenians and Azerbaijanis. Interesting. Brothers? ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania#Ethnogenesis

[Hoca]

The Caucasian Albanians were the first in the area, it seems. Those people were assimilated among Armenians and Azerbaijanis. Interesting. Brothers? ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania#Ethnogenesis

That history belongs to Azeri.

[SILNI]

wHY DO I have to ask other members? Some Serb or Armenian is not an authority on international law.

I invite guys to 2013 where things are done with laws.

Karabakh is Azeri land by INTERNATIONAL LAW. No discussion possible. End of discussion.
I ask again what law?
After all that referendum was conducted according to law also. People voted.

[Hoca]

I ask again what law?
After all that referendum was conducted according to law also. People voted.

What referendum? There are no Azeri left in karabakh because of massacres. Are you serious? Do you think Azerbaijan will accept this?

If we are going to do a referendum all of Armenia and Azeribaijan should do referendum. Azerbaijan will win because of population number.

[gregorius]

That history belongs to Azeri.

Well if you read the Page is onlny talking about Armenians and not Azeri's. Caucasian Albanians where part of Armenian church:), The western part which is karabach and the surrounding area is assimilated into armenians :)

he history of Caucasian Albania has been a major topic of Azerbaijani revisionist theories, which came under criticism in Western and Russian academic and analytical circles, and were often characterized as “bizarre” and “futile.”[120][121][122][123][124][125][126][127][128]

[Artavazt]

This city is also the same, Albanian in reality, but made "Armenian".

Most of archeologists and historians are saying its armenian.
Im realy shocked to see how you are insisting something that you have never seen
it in your life to be Albanian :confused:. And by the way albanians were not turkic people.
I also gave an example of ancient solar clock with armenian letters,i hope that you wont say
that armenian letters are actualy albanian letters.

[inactive_member]

What referendum? There are no Azeri left in karabakh because of massacres. Are you serious? Do you think Azerbaijan will accept this?

If we are going to do a referendum all of Armenia and Azeribaijan should do referendum. Azerbaijan will win because of population number.

There was a referendum in 1991. The population of Armenians prevailed 9:1 throughout 20th century. You do the maths.

[Hoca]

Well if you read the Page is onlny talking about Armenians and not Azeri's. Caucasian Albanians where part of Armenian church:), The western part which is karabach and the surrounding area is assimilated into armenians :)

he history of Caucasian Albania has been a major topic of Azerbaijani revisionist theories, which came under criticism in Western and Russian academic and analytical circles, and were often characterized as “bizarre” and “futile.”[120][121][122][123][124][125][126][127][128]

That is because wonderful wikipedia is the realm of Armenians. Everybody can write what he wants there. Those churches were not Armenian. Caucasian Albanians and their language had nothing to do with Armenians.

[SILNI]

There was a referendum in 1991. The population of Armenians prevailed 9:1 throughout 20th century. You do the maths.

He is just biased.

[RussiaPrussia]

Demographics only changed during stalin's time and his demographic games. That doesn't justify anything.

The people can still live there but the territory remains to tHIS day Azeri land and everybody sees Karabakh as occupied land by international LAW.

When Karabakh issue gets resolved. The people can stay if they want, but the Azeri that were driven out will move back in.

dude i have never seen more hypocrites than turks in this forum, if that is the case then i can argue east turkey is all armenia now because there was a significant armenian population at some point in time.

The data also shows the last demographic census was from 1926 while Stalin came into power in October 1922, so in 4 years he accomplished all of this? You just put the facts together however you want so it fits into your turkic view. Get real and have some standpoints, then people would listen to you.

[DJVT]

That is because wonderful wikipedia is the realm of Armenians. Everybody can write what he wants there. Those churches were not Armenian. Caucasian Albanians and their language had nothing to do with Armenians.

Hoco, It isnt just wikipedia. It is stated with sources in different languages. The English and Dutch wikipedia is telling what Gregor quoted.

[SILNI]

That is because wonderful wikipedia is the realm of Armenians. Everybody can write what he wants there.
No. It is just that you are not used to see at least a little bit of objectivity. It make you nervous.
"Wikipedia - realm of Armenians" ... what a joke.

[Hoca]

Azerbaijan should do this:
http://www.azernews.az/azerbaijan/49189.html

[Yalquzaq]

You mean Armenian archeologists and historians?

There were some Turkic tribes among them (like Saka tribe) but yes mostly they were native Caucasian and spoke north-east Caucasian dialects, like Udi people do now. No relation to Armenians either.

This Alban artifact from "Daşsalahlı" village was stolen by Armenians during Soviet era, who knows that this has already not been made "Armenian"?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/az/8/81/Da%C5%9Fsalahl%C4%B1_Alban_yaz%C4%B1s%C4%B1.jpg

[gregorius]

That is because wonderful wikipedia is the realm of Armenians. Everybody can write what he wants there. Those churches were not Armenian. Caucasian Albanians and their language had nothing to do with Armenians.

Dont be so stupid, the language wasnt armenian i never stated that but their church was armenian :) i know it hurts.

[Hoca]

You mean Armenian archeologists and historians?

There were some Turkic tribes among them (Saka tribe) but yes mostly they were native Caucasian (and most likely spoke north-east Caucasian dialects, like Udi people do now), no relation to Armenians either.

This Alban artifact from "Daşsalahlı" village was stolen by Armenians during Soviet era, who knows that it has already not been added into findings of "ancient Armenian"?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/az/8/81/Da%C5%9Fsalahl%C4%B1_Alban_yaz%C4%B1s%C4%B1.jpg
I don't have to add anything you said it all.

But hey, you should ask the members of this forum. They probably know best :D

[Hoca]

Same facts for people who are not into this topic:

On 18 June, the OSCE Minsk Group Co-Chairs from Russia, France and the US met the Azerbaijani and Armenian Foreign Ministers in Paris. The European Azerbaijan Society (TEAS) shares the disappointment expressed by the three Co-Chairing Presidents – Vladimir Putin, Barack Obama and François Hollande – at the G20 summit yesterday in Los Cabos, Mexico, and supports their recommendations.

Although TEAS welcomes the attention given to this conflict, a solution is far from evident. It has become clear that the conflict is continuing to destabilise the region and that there are constant tensions on the ‘contact line’, which have recently claimed several lives on both sides.

TEAS is convinced that a peaceful settlement of this conflict is crucial and beneficial for the political and socio-economic future of both Azerbaijan and Armenia. However, TEAS observes that Armenia continues to flout the basic rules of international law.

If Armenia continues not to recognise Azerbaijani territorial integrity, nor act in accordance with the four UN Security Council Resolutions (822, 853, 874, and 884) on the liberation of Nagorno-Karabakh and the seven adjacent territories, a peaceful solution will remain impossible. In addition to this, TEAS remains committed to supporting the 875,000 internally displaced persons (IDPs) and refugees who have been unable to return home for 20 years. This has made Azerbaijan the country with the most IDPs per capita in the world.

TEAS underlines the importance of political action in accordance with the principles of international law, and is convinced that the key to peaceful and sustainable settlement in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict is only possible through this international framework. The recent visit of Herman Van Rompuy, President of the European Council, to the region, and the active political commitment demonstrated this spring by the European Parliament through the Resolutions for Association Agreements indirectly prove that EU institutions support TEAS’ objective of resolution according to international principles.

[Hoca]

Dont be so stupid, the language wasnt armenian i never stated that but their church was armenian :) i know it hurts.

No it wasn't. It was added later on.

[inactive_member]

He is just biased.

Biased people cannot think rationally. Voting on the referendum gives legitimacy to the government and many countries are maintaining status quo. Let history to decide towards which country the region will gravitate more. At the moment the region wants to be independent.

[Hayalet]

Nagorno-Karabach is Armenian land just like Kosovo belongs to Serbia,
On the very contrary; Nagorno-Karabakh is either Armenian as much as Kosovo is Albanian, or it is Azerbaijani as much as Kosovo is Serbian.

[gregorius]

No it wasn't. It was added later on.

The Albanian Apostolic Church or the Church of Caucasian Albania was an ancient independent[1] autocephalous[2] church. It later fell under the religious jurisdiction of the Armenian Apostolic Church[3] that existed from the 5th century to 1830

^ Robert H. Hewsen, Armenia: A Historical Atlas. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2001, pp. 40, 72, 80.

it was more than 500 years long under the armenian church before the azeris came in caucasian albania

[Hoca]

Biased people cannot think rationally. Voting on the referendum gives legitimacy to the government and many countries are maintaining status quo. Let history to decide towards which country the region will gravitate more. At the moment the region wants to be independent.

Hello? How are you going to do a referendum on Azeri land? (that is internationally recognized)

Azerbaijan won't allow this. Seriously, what is your IQ? :p

That referendum has as much worth as a fart in the air, haha.

[inactive_member]

Hello? How are you going to do a referendum on Azeri land? (that is internationally recognized)

Azerbaijan won't allow this. Seriously, what is your IQ? :p

That referendum has as much worth as a fart in the air, haha.

This post pretty much sums up my suspicion about you being irrational.

[DJVT]

Hello? How are you going to do a referendum on Azeri land? (that is internationally recognized)

Azerbaijan won't allow this. Seriously, what is your IQ? :p

Seriously what are you doing on a European forum trying to spread al this filthy turkish propaganda. You think anyone is believing this stupid comments and propaganda of yours ? :)

[SILNI]

Biased people cannot think rationally. Voting on the referendum gives legitimacy to the government and many countries are maintaining status quo. Let history to decide towards which country the region will gravitate more. At the moment the region wants to be independent.
If I understood good Armenians have significant connection into USA due latter armenian immigration , so Nato strikes (kosovo scenario) is not an option.
Furthermore in this case who inhabit the land , own the land. In following years more armenian demographic cultural dominance in that region can be expected. Azerbajian have no rule over it for time being.

[Hoca]

Well, if you can't win the argument, attack the person. Very advanced mind-set you have.

Interesting read:


Azerbaijan, a country which joined the Chicago Convention on International Civil Aviation, may declare the area of Karabakh a 'no-fly zone', the Foreign Ministry spokesman said at a briefing Wednesday.

Elman Abdullayev was commenting on Armenian President Serzh Sargsyan's statement regarding the opening of an airport in the town of Khojaly in Nagorno-Karabakh -- an Azerbaijani region under Armenian occupation.

According to Abdullayev, the countries that joined the Chicago Convention should respect the decisions made by other members. And as Nagorno-Karabakh is an internationally recognized territory of Azerbaijan, flights over the country's territory without its permission are illegal and would serve to an escalation of the conflict and impede the process of negotiations on settling the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict.

"Azerbaijan is a civilized country...We do not violate international law. We do not carry out such flights in foreign territory. Azerbaijan has always adhered to international law, including the Chicago Convention," Abdullayev underscored.

"Armenia's actions are an affront to international law. Azerbaijan has sovereignty over its airspace," Abdullayev said.

Meanwhile, the Conservative MP, Energy and Climate Change Select Committee member and chair of the Azerbaijan All-Party Parliamentary Group Chris Pincher wrote in his article on HuffPost Politics that "should these latest tensions spiral into full-scale conflict, the consequences will be felt not just by the Caucasus region, but by the whole of Europe."

"Most experts suggest that the potential opening violates international law, including several provisions of the Chicago Convention - in particular, articles 1, 2, 5, 6, 10-16, 24 and 68," Pincher said. "Legally, Khojaly airport cannot operate, as unauthorized flights through Azerbaijani airspace are not permitted without that government's sanction."

This is unacceptable without the consent of the Azerbaijani government. Any violation may cause unpredictable consequences, Pincher said.

"But leaving all the legal implications aside, such a step could only undermine precisely what the international community is working hard for - slow and steady progress through peace talks and confidence building measures," Pincher said. "So it is not surprising that the international reaction to the proposed re-opening was unequivocal in its condemnation."

Also, recently, the OSCE Minsk Group co-chairs in their statement expressed caution about the operation of flights to and from the Khojaly airport, saying they could not be used to support any claim of a change in the current status of Nagorno-Karabakh under international law.

There is, however, another reason why Azerbaijan opposes Armenia's plans, Pincher believes.

The airport in question is located at the site of the most notorious massacre in the 1988-1994 conflict when, on 26 February 1992, 613 civilians of the town of Khojaly were massacred by Armenian forces, Pincher added.

"No one disputes the right of civilians to free movement. But surely the right time to start talking about re-opening the airport is once the hostilities are over, and when the people who were expelled from their homes and who currently languish in displaced person camps are given the chance to return to their homes," Pincher said.

Commissioning the airport in Khojaly is an open violation of the Chicago Convention -- which was adopted on December 7, 1944, the Azerbaijani Foreign Ministry stated earlier.

The International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) and the European Civil Aviation Conference (ICAC) also support the position of Azerbaijan on this issue.

International flights from the Khojaly airport, constructed in 1978, were prohibited after the occupation of territories by Armenia. The Khojaly airport, which has been registered in international organizations with the name UB13, is a facility with military purposes.

Document No.121 on airports of the ICAO cited the Khojaly airport as property of Azerbaijan.

Since a brutal war that concluded with the signing of a fragile cease-fire in 1994, Armenian armed forces have occupied 20 percent of Azerbaijan's territory, including Nagorno-Karabakh and seven surrounding regions. Peace talks, brokered by Russia, France and the U.S., the co-chairs of the OSCE Minsk Group, have been mostly fruitless so far.

[DJVT]

Well, if you can't win the argument, attack the person. Very advanced mind-set you have.

I won this discussion :) all sources are telling that Azerbaijani Turks have nothing to do in NK, and you just cant accept that fact :) than you are attacking someone trying to instult that person by asking his IQ :). so there you go

[inactive_member]

If I understood good Armenians have significant connection into USA due latter armenian immigration , so Nato strikes (kosovo scenario) is not an option , furthermore in this case who inhabit the land , own the land. In following years more Armenian demographic cultural dominance in that region can be expected. Azerbejin have no rule over it for time being.
The region has a history of dispute. It's unclear why the region was not transferred to Armenia when USSR was forming in the 20th of the last century. The decision was made in favour of Armenia back then but the transfer was never eventuated. The demography of the region was heavily favouring Armenians for the last 100-150 years at least.
The massacre of Azeri that did not allow them to vote would not have made any difference to the outcome of the referendum. Besides, Armenians and Azeri did not get along well before the conflict broke out. The only thing goes for Azerbaijan is their large economy in comparison to neighbouring countries.

[SILNI]

Hello? How are you going to do a referendum on Azeri land? (that is internationally recognized)

Azerbaijan won't allow this.
It already happened back in 1991 , sorry.

[SILNI]

It's unclear why the region was not transferred to Armenia when USSR was forming in the 20th of the last century.
It is interesting that soviet union officialy from 1920s till its collapse in 1990s always supported azeri's side in this conflict despite clear demographic reality of the region..
It would surprise me that those communist dictators had made single one good decision anyway.

[Artavazt]

http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/news/129241/

[Loki]

http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/news/129241/

The Armenian overseas lobbies are strong ... and very determined.

[gregorius]

Armenian

[Loki]

It is Azerbaijani land, recognised internationally - occupied by Armenia.

[Hayalet]

Don't forget to mention your opinion on the territory between Nagorno-Karabakh and Armenia, which is also occupied.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8Kbj3_r_tCI/TsnUs6NDKdI/AAAAAAAAASU/3ddlDJC75-g/s1600/nagorno-karabakh_occupation_map.jpg

[Onur]

Don't forget to mention your opinion on the territory between Nagorno-Karabakh and Armenia, which is also occupied.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8Kbj3_r_tCI/TsnUs6NDKdI/AAAAAAAAASU/3ddlDJC75-g/s1600/nagorno-karabakh_occupation_map.jpg
This map clearly shows the situation in there.

Nakhchevan province is an Azerbaijani land on the left side and the right side has been invaded by Armenia. It`s so obvious that the Armenian state cutting the connection between Turkey/Nakhchevan and Azerbaijan by invading these lands and having a border with Iran in the south side.

No need to mention, the big majority of people who lives in northern Iran are also Azerbaijani Turks. It`s so obvious whats going on here. Even a 5 year old kid can figure it out the intention and the absurdness of these borders.

[gregorius]

Karabach would turn into new nakchevan if the armenians there would not fight for their ground.

[Illancha]

This map clearly shows the situation in there.

Nakhchevan province is an Azerbaijani land on the left side and the right side has been invaded by Armenia. It`s so obvious that the Armenian state cutting the connection between Turkey/Nakhchevan and Azerbaijan by invading these lands and having a border with Iran in the south side.

No need to mention, the big majority of people who lives in northern Iran are also Azerbaijani Turks. It`s so obvious whats going on here. Even a 5 year old kid can figure it out the intention and the absurdness of these borders.
Slight deviation, but on the topic of absurd borders.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Ossetia01.png
Anyone care to guess what the purpose of that thin strip and blob at the top is?

[Musso]

This map clearly shows the situation in there.

Nakhchevan province is an Azerbaijani land on the left side and the right side has been invaded by Armenia. It`s so obvious that the Armenian state cutting the connection between Turkey/Nakhchevan and Azerbaijan by invading these lands and having a border with Iran in the south side.

No need to mention, the big majority of people who lives in northern Iran are also Azerbaijani Turks. It`s so obvious whats going on here. Even a 5 year old kid can figure it out the intention and the absurdness of these borders.

Tell that to the Soviet leaders (especially Stalin) that devised such borders in order to divide and conquer the region.


Don't forget to mention your opinion on the territory between Nagorno-Karabakh and Armenia, which is also occupied.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8Kbj3_r_tCI/TsnUs6NDKdI/AAAAAAAAASU/3ddlDJC75-g/s1600/nagorno-karabakh_occupation_map.jpg

This territory is a buffer zone that is to be given back once the security and independence of Karabakh is assured. Karabakh couldn't have been secured without those territories also being secured.

Nevertheless, Karabakh's declaration of independence was legal in accordance with Soviet Law

[Onur]

I doubt Azerbaijan will ever do that, because the Armenians are tight with Russia. Do you want to be the next Georgia?
Do not compare apples with oranges. Russia cannot do shit to Azerbaijan. If Russia involves into the conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia, then Turkey involves too. This is something inevitable.

Russians never puts their 100 billion dollars of annual trade in danger, just for the sake of Armenians and they never dare to act hostile to both Azerbaijan and Turkey.



http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/news/129241/
This doesn't mean anything. Whether you manage to let that occupied region recognized by 3rd parties or not, Azerbaijan will soon get back Karabakh and you wont be able to do shit about it except crying a river all around the world.

[Musso]

This doesn't mean anything. Whether you manage to let that occupied region recognized by 3rd parties or not, Azerbaijan will soon get back Karabakh and you wont be able to do shit about it except crying a river all around the world.

And tell me how it's going to do that? If Azerbaijan was capable of taking back Karabakh, it would have done it a long time ago. The thing is, the big powers, don't want conflict, they want the status quo kept, because conflict, means instability in a key region, where they are key resources. Neither Armenia or Azerbaijan want to anger the big powers.

[Yalquzaq]

And tell me how it's going to do that?

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?59490-Azerbaijan-Armed-Forces

"It would have done it a long time ago" is not a good argument, as Azerbaijan did not enjoy the same financial opportunities "long ago", and the military build-up continues.

[Hevo]

The Caucasian Albanians were the first in the area, it seems. Those people were assimilated among Armenians and Azerbaijanis. Interesting. Brothers? ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania#Ethnogenesis

I thought that Armenians we're first in Nagorno-Karabakh?

[Artavazt]

This doesn't mean anything. Whether you manage to let that occupied region recognized by 3rd parties or not, Azerbaijan will soon get back Karabakh and you wont be able to do shit about it except crying a river all around the world.

its been 20 years that we are hearing the same borring words "azerbeijan will soon get back...etc"
If they could take it they would start a war long time ago. Perhaps it was our fault that we showed some mercy in 1994 and agreed to sign an agreement to stop the war we,they wont have such chance next time.

You take care of your people that are beeing outnumbered by kurds.

[RussiaPrussia]

then Turkey involves too.


youre not even bordering Azerbaijan and between you lies many mountains. Like you could do anything against russian army there.

[Artavazt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gxc7jdIasQg[/QUOTE]

[Yalquzaq]

its been 20 years that we are hearing the same borring words "azerbeijan will soon get back...etc"
If they could take it they would start a war long time ago. Perhaps it was our fault that we showed some mercy in 1994 and agreed to sign an agreement to stop the war we,they wont have such chance next time.

See my reply to "Mosso".

[Hoca]

And tell me how it's going to do that? If Azerbaijan was capable of taking back Karabakh, it would have done it a long time ago. The thing is, the big powers, don't want conflict, they want the status quo kept, because conflict, means instability in a key region, where they are key resources. Neither Armenia or Azerbaijan want to anger the big powers.

Azerbaijan doesn't act because it is going to win the waiting game. Armenia's situation is dire. People are starving. All borders closed. No investments are made in Armenia. Karabakh is not recognized. Future doesn't look good. Azerbaijan has bigger longs than Armenia. It will be a tactical win. Genghis Khan said best battles are won without a fight.

[gregorius]

Azerbaijan doesn't act because it is going to win the waiting game. Armenia's situation is dire. People are starving. All borders closed. No investments are made in Armenia. Karabakh is not recognized. Future doesn't look good. Azerbaijan has bigger longs than Armenia. It will be a tactical win. Genghis Khan said best battles are won without a fight.
Hmm our borders are not all closed :) The people in Azerbaijan are as poor as in armenia :) only your sultan and his friends are providing from it(oil) :). For how many years can you leach on your oil? because when thats over then what ?

[Hoca]

Karabakh and whole of Armenia doesn't have any oil or natural resources. Russia will use Armenia as barganing chips with dealing with the Turks. Huge projects and trade is going on between Russia/Turkey/Azerbaijan. If Russia really cared about Armenia they wouldn't do business with them. For example, Turkey has closed borders with ARmenia because of Azerbijan request. Would Russia do the same for Armenia? This reveals the true position of Russia in Karabakh conflict.

[Hoca]

Hmm our borders are not all closed :) The people in Azerbaijan are as poor as in armenia :) only your sultan and his friends are providing from it(oil) :). For how many years can you leach on your oil? because when thats over then what ?

No average Azerbaijan is more than twice as rich as average Armenian. Next to that, Azerbaijan is self-sustainable, while Armenia only survives because they get money transfers from Armenian diaspora.

An Armenian "friend" said if they didn't get money from their diaspora from abroad, all Armenians would starve to death.

[Musso]

Azerbaijan doesn't act because it is going to win the waiting game. Armenia's situation is dire. People are starving. All borders closed. No investments are made in Armenia. Karabakh is not recognized. Future doesn't look good. Azerbaijan has bigger longs than Armenia. It will be a tactical win. Genghis Khan said best battles are won without a fight.

Bunch of ridiculous statements right there. Actually many industries in Armenia are growing such as IT. Intel is opening a center in Armenia along with other technology companies. One thing pertinent to the conflict is that Russia and Armenia are opening defence industry in Armenia to produce native weapons.

[gregorius]

Karabakh and whole of Armenia doesn't have any oil or natural resources. Russia will use Armenia as barganing chips with dealing with the Turks. Huge projects and trade is going on between Russia/Turkey/Azerbaijan. If Russia really cared about Armenia they would do business with them. For example, Turkey has closed borders with ARmenia because of Azerbijan request. Would Russia do the same for Armenia? This reveals the true position of Russia in Karabakh conflict.

Armenia has no resources but azeri oil is limited :) and when thats over than its over for your country because azeris are not providing from it only some people.
As for Russia, Armenia is a handy place for the russians. Dont forget that armenians over the world are in way better positions and that is better on the longer term than your oil which will run out. Dont forget that azeri's arent half as smart and succesful as armenians :)

[Musso]

Azeri oil output has reached its peak already. Azerbaijan is a perfect example of a banana republic. It's not a long sustaining economic model.

[Hoca]

Bunch of ridiculous statements right there. Actually many industries in Armenia are growing such as IT. Intel is opening a center in Armenia along with other technology companies. One thing pertinent to the conflict is that Russia and Armenia are opening defence industry in Armenia to produce native weapons.

Obviously you live abroad and don't know the dire situation of Armenians. I have heard the situation of Armenians from an Armenian from Armenia.

Armenia doesn't have any industry. No investments are made. No skilled labor force. Borders closed from almost all sides. There are most no succesful businesses in Armenia. Only state run. The things you talk about are peanuts.

http://en.apa.az/news_sam_presents_report_titled____analysis_of__18 7418.html

[Yalquzaq]

Azeri oil output has reached its peak already. Azerbaijan is a perfect example of a banana republic. It's not a long sustaining economic model.

The decline in oil output was caused by BP's mistakes (Aliyev directly adressed this issue in one of his speeches few months ago), right now its stabilized and will start to grow again. Azerbaijan has currently 14 billion barrels of proven oil reserves (with 30 billion estimated), so do not worry. There is also major natural gas projects coming up, the TANAP project which has already started to be built and completly financed by Azerbaijan, and another natural gas pipeline that will be selected for Shah-Deniz 2 field.

You mean Armenia is a perfect example of a banana republic, not to mention that even non-oil sector of Azerbaijani economy are still much larger than that of Armenia. Funny how an Armenian could utter such words.

[Musso]

Obviously you live abroad and don't know the dire situation of Armenians. I have heard the situation of Armenians from an Armenian from Armenia.

Armenia doesn't have any industry. No investments are made. No skilled labor force. Borders closed from almost all sides. There are most no succesful businesses in Armenia. Only state run. The things you talk about are peanuts.

http://en.apa.az/news_sam_presents_report_titled____analysis_of__18 7418.html

I know very well about situation in Armenia. It seems you have no idea.

Armenia doesn't have any industry? Wrong. Check sectors such as IT and the growing defence industry.
No investments are made? Wrong. Actually laughable. Many investments are being made.
No skilled labour force? Wrong. IT sector is growing, highlighted by intel research center opening in armenia(http://asbarez.com/107038/intel-to-open-research-center-in-armenia/)
Border closed from almost all sides? Border is closed West/East. North/South is open.
No successful businesses in Armenia? All state run? LOL. Wrong.

and aha, you cite an Azeri article to prove things about Armenia. Great work there.

[gregorius]

The decline in oil output was caused by BP's mistakes (Aliyev directly adressed this issue in one of his speeches few months ago), right now its stabilized and will start to grow again. Azerbaijan has currently 14 billion barrels of proven oil reserves (with 30 billion estimated), so do not worry. There is also major natural gas projects coming up, the TANAP project which has already started to be built and completly financed by Azerbaijan, and another natural gas pipeline that will be selected for Shah-Deniz 2 field.

You mean Armenia is a perfect example of a banana republic, not to mention that even non-oil sector of Azerbaijani economy are still much larger than that of Armenia. Funny how an Armenian could utter such words.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/Tree_map_export_2009_Azerbaijan.jpeg

Put that oil away and you would have really nothing :)

[Musso]

The decline in oil output was caused by BP's mistakes (Aliyev directly adressed this issue in one of his speeches few months ago), right now its stabilized and will start to grow again. Azerbaijan has currently 14 billion barrels of proven oil reserves (with 30 billion estimated), so do not worry. There is also major natural gas projects coming up, the TANAP project which has already started to be built and completly financed by Azerbaijan, and another natural gas pipeline that will be selected for Shah-Deniz 2 field.

You mean Armenia is a perfect example of a banana republic, not to mention that even non-oil sector of Azerbaijani economy are still much larger than that of Armenia. Funny how an Armenian could utter such words.

Nope, oil peak output in Azerbaijan is being reached: http://pubs.acs.org/stoken/presspac/presspac/full/10.1021/ef901240p

You even know what a banana republic is?


The account of the encounter is included in a secret memo from the US Embassy in Baku -- and reads like a sarcastic description from US diplomats who feel like they are stranded in some banana republic in the middle of nowhere.


While a few Azerbaijani clans are getting richer and richer, thanks to all the dollars pouring into the country, the rest of the population is barely scraping by. Over 40 percent of the country's inhabitants are living in poverty; the average monthly income is just €24. As Lala Shevkat, the leader of the Liberal Party of Azerbaijan, says: "Oil is our tragedy."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/boys-and-their-toys-the-us-befriends-azerbaijan-s-corrupt-elite-a-734307.html

[Hoca]

Armenia, second worse economy in the world. Juicy article:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfisher/2011/07/05/the-worlds-worst-economies/2/

I will go in details later.

[Yalquzaq]

The proven oil reserves are 14 billion barrels like said, not including the estimated reserves. These are latest figures, as for oil production, I already explained, I'm talking of present situation, not past.

Surely you don't know what it is, as you should not go farther away than Armenia for its description. Also I don't know why you feel the urge to provocate other members deliberately.

Totally made-up figures. The population that lives in poverty are far under 10%, I don't remember exactly. Even official figures like CIA factbook puts it at 6% or 7%, again I don't remember exactly. The average monthly salary is over 700 USD, not 24 euros (I don't think it would be that low even two decades ago, it shows what kind of a joke the article is). Not to mention that the article is dated 2010, but the figures are still totally made-up just for the sake of exaggeration, the figures mentioned there would not be even true for two decades ago.

Instead, you should look at the sitaution of Armenia, one of the poorest countries of CIS and worldwide with zero potential.

[Yalquzaq]

Dont forget that azeri's arent half as smart and succesful as armenians :)

And how did you reach that conclusion?

We have plenty of succesful people aswell. Igor Ashurbeyli, head of S-400 project is a ethnic Azerbaijani. Head of LukOil is Vagit Alekperov. Many other people can be mentioned.

Sidenote about Alekperov: He is currently rated by Forbes magazine as the eighth richest person in Russia with a net worth of $13.9 billion and the 50th richest person in the world.

[Musso]

Armenia, second worse economy in the world. Juicy article:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfisher/2011/07/05/the-worlds-worst-economies/2/

I will go in details later.

Please do go into details. Funny how 1) you base economic conclusion about a country on an opinion of one writer 2) how you post an outdated article, as the same writer wrote the same article recently where Armenia was not in that list.

[Yalquzaq]

And how funny is it that you do exactly the same in your arguments, no offence.

[Loki]

If there was another war about that area, the outcome would be certain. Azerbaijan's defense spending is ten times that of Armenia.

[Yalquzaq]

Gregor: "Dont forget that azeri's arent half as smart and succesful as armenians"

"Vagit Alekperov is currently rated by Forbes magazine as the eighth richest person in Russia with a net worth of $13.9 billion and the 50th richest person in the world."

And yet a single Azerbaijani is richer than Armenian state.

[Hoca]

Gregor: "Dont forget that azeri's arent half as smart and succesful as armenians"

"Vagit Alekperov is currently rated by Forbes magazine as the eighth richest person in Russia with a net worth of $13.9 billion and the 50th richest person in the world."

And yet a single Azerbaijani is richer than Armenian state.

No, no, you are mistaken but Intel and Starbucks have opened a business in Armenia :p

Small people, are happy with small things.

[RussiaPrussia]

If there was another war about that area, the outcome would be certain. Azerbaijan's defense spending is ten times that of Armenia.

depends they have hills

[Loki]

depends they have hills

Israel provides assistance to Azerbaijan, while China does to Armenia. And Russia supplies both with arms :p

[Hoca]

depends they have hills

Hills were effective during WW1 warfare. Trench warfare is not effective nowadays. There are helicopters, jets, long-range artillery, and long-range rockets. If Armenia is going to take let's-put-our-head-in-a-trench approach they will be smoked out and squashed. Best chance Armenia has is preemptive surprise attack but that could end up as suicide attack.

[Artavazt]

Hills were effective during WW1 warfare. .

They were still effective in 2006 during the war between Hizballa and Israel.

[Artavazt]

Azerbaijan's defense spending is ten times that of Armenia.

Saudia Arabia's defense spending is three times that of turkey,though it's(Saudia) very weak.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

[American_Hispanist]

simple solution. Give Nagorno-Karabakh to Azerbaijan, as it should be under, and problem solved. :)

[Hoca]

They were still effective in 2006 during the war between Hizballa and Israel.

No they were not. First find out what trench warfare means. Hezbollah/Israel war is not trench warfare but asymmetrical warfare. Trench warfare is something of the past.

War between Azerbaijan and Armenia is going to be conventional warfare. Not war like Israel/Hazbollah where Israel doesn't know where the enemy is.Hezbollah can hide, but Armenia can't hide. In case of war, Azerbaijan has clear objectives, if it succeeds it will win the war. After that Armenia might start a asymmetrical war also known as terrorist attacks, but I don't know what effect that will have for their cause.

[Loki]

simple solution. Give Nagorno-Karabakh to Azerbaijan, as it should be under, and problem solved. :)

It already belongs to Azerbaijan. Armenia must just end their occupation and withdraw all military.

[American_Hispanist]

After that Armenia might start a asymmetrical war also known as terrorist attacks, but I don't know what effect that will have for their cause.

ASALA will come back. :( :(

[Artavazt]

It already belongs to Azerbaijan. Armenia must just end their occupation and withdraw all military.

Only according to judeo-turkic communist filth like you.

Real british people know to whome it belongs www.artsakh.org.uk

[American_Hispanist]

It already belongs to Azerbaijan. Armenia must just end their occupation and withdraw all military.

Armenians don't want to recognize that. :( They want more land.

[Hoca]

ASALA will come back. :( :(

They are already here. They are a wing of PKK. We have nothing to loose bro.

[Loki]

Only according to judeo-turkic communist filth like you.


Now because I disagree with you I am 'filth' ;) I am not surprised ... :)

[American_Hispanist]

Only according to judeo-turkic communist filth like you.

Real british people know to whome it belongs www.artsah.org.uk

You armenians are greedy. Nagorno-Karabakh belongs to Azerbaycan, and it will always belong to Azerbaycan. But don't worry, Azerbaycan will take back Nagorno-Karabakh, and then you guys will cry that Turkic people are bullies, lol.

[American_Hispanist]

They are already here. They are a wing of PKK. We have nothing to loose bro.

lol. The Kurdish-Armenian "Alliance" is a complete joke. They hate each other more than they hate Turks. Yet again, it's funny how all these Armenians hate Jews as much as they hate Turks, lol. :cool:

[Loki]

Real british people know to whome it belongs www.artsakh.org.uk

Armenians are excellent propagandists ... and lobbyists. They're worse than the Jewish lobbies in many ways. Exaggerations, lies, historical revisionism .. no wonder many unaware people in the West fall for it. They're all over ... in the UK, France, USA ... quite sad.

[Artavazt]

Now because I disagree with you I am 'filth' ;) I am not surprised ... :)

Because you are biased against armenians, not only regarding karabakh issue but allmost everything.
For example you were bitching and wining about an armenian that you met and he wanted to fight against
turks or kill turks according to you,but you ignore how they threat to shoot civil airplanes, kill armenian soldiers when they are sleeping and make the killer national hero.
You are biased against armenians in every topic,and always see the mistakes of one side
,as far as im concerned you dont know a shit about karabakh conflict,and if you cared to read
watch only 10% of the pictures,articles,videos that i posted you wouldnt make such ignorent statement. And sometimes its hard to tolerate your ratitude and stay calm.

[Loki]

Because you are biased against armenians, not only regarding karabakh issue but allmost everything.
For example you were bitching and wining about an armenian that you met and he wanted to fight against
turks or kill turks according to you,but you ignore how they treat to shoot civil airplanes, kill armenian soldiers
when they are sleeping and make the killer national hero.
You are biased against armenians in every topic,and sometimes its hard to tolerate your ratitude and stay
calm.

Well everyone has an opinion, this is just mine on the matter. You are of course welcome to disagree with me but I won't regard you as filth personally just because of it. I am not anti-Armenian per se, I just dislike all the propaganda and overtly aggressive nationalism.

Besides, many Northern Europeans feel spiritually close to Azerbaijanis for good reason ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZJ1-cIAYMc

[Hoca]

No, he is not bias against Armenians. I have also met couple of Armenians and I had the same experience. Rudest people I have ever met after they discovered I was a Turk. He obsessively talked about bullshit propaganda, even after I told him couple of times I don't talk about politics. Of course I can't talk for all Armenians but definitely Armenian diaspora are the most despicable people. (And I don't say that often).

[Hoca]

This is how Armenians act in Christian countries. Biggest medicare scam in history.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/armenian-american-gang-busted-massive-163-million-medicare-scam-article-1.187168

[Artavazt]

Armenians are excellent propagandists ... and lobbyists. They're worse than the Jewish lobbies in many ways. Exaggerations, lies, historical revisionism .. no wonder many unaware people in the West fall for it. They're all over ... in the UK, France, USA ... quite sad.


The number of armenians in UK is very small,this man is a photographer, he travels all around the world,no one forced him to come to karabagh.
You see it took less than two minutes to respond to my previous post,which means you did not even look what is written in the web,yet you are claiming to just "disagree" with me.

[American_Hispanist]

Armenians are excellent propagandists ... and lobbyists.

LOL! they fail at that. they could only do that when they have no opposition. like here in California for example, they lobbied the State of California to recognize that fairytale called the Armenian "Genocide" because there are barely any Turks here, plus, the Yerevan of the Americas is here in California (Glendale California), so they have a base to wage a fairytale war.


They're worse than the Jewish lobbies in many ways. Exaggerations, lies, historical revisionism .. no wonder many unaware people in the West fall for it. They're all over ... in the UK, France, USA ... quite sad.

It's funny how Armenians despise Jews. Competition for "Genocide" recognition, plus, Jews have more $$$ and they are more successful on average than your average Armenian. But yes, all these lies is quite sad. It's even more sad when Armenians go as low as to use terrorist methods to keep people from saying the truth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_J._Shaw


In a probable retaliation to the publication of the second volume, on the night of October 3, 1977, a bomb, placed by unknown assailants, exploded at the doorstep of Shaw's home at 3:50 AM, although no one was hurt

^shows how civilized these Armenians are.

[Loki]

If what you said is true, armenian genocide would be recognized like jewish holocaust around the world.
The number of armenians in UK is very small,this man is a photographer, he travels all around the world,no one forced him to come to karabagh.
You see it took less than two minutes to respond to me previous post,which means you did not even look what is written in the web,yet you are claiming to just "disagree" with me.

I actually personally know several Armenians in the UK ... even been to a few weddings. :) I know what they talk about at the dinner table, and after ;)

[American_Hispanist]

No, he is not bias against Armenians. I have also met couple of Armenians and I had the same experience. Rudest people I have ever met after they discovered I was a Turk. He obsessively talked about bullshit propaganda, even after I told him couple of times I don't talk about politics. Of course I can't talk for all Armenians but definitely Armenian diaspora are the most despicable people. (And I don't say that often).

Armenians always act like that, especially if they find out you are Turk. My Turkish friends know that very well. As one of my Turk friends said, you can meet a sane Greek but never a sane Armenian.

[Artavazt]

Well everyone has an opinion, this is just mine on the matter. You are of course welcome to disagree with me but I won't regard you as filth personally just because of it. I am not anti-Armenian per se, I just dislike all the propaganda and overtly aggressive nationalism.

Besides, many Northern Europeans feel spiritually close to Azerbaijanis for good reason ...


The problem is that you consider everything that armenians say to be propagenda,regardless if you are right or not.

It's normal for northern europeans to feel close to native caucasian people spiritually,however i doubt if there are many northern europeans such as yourself who feel close to turks or modern azeris (caucasian tatars) of today.


I actually personally know several Armenians in the UK ... even been to a few weddings. :) I know what they talk about at the dinner table, and after ;)

If you dont like armenians and beeing around them why you be double faced and go to their weddings instead of beeing honest and refusing their invitations ?

[Loki]

The problem is that you consider everything that armenians say to be propagenda,regardless if you are right or not.


I am really neutral geopolitically (whether I "like" people or not) - if you can convince me of something with true facts I will not go against it. I can argue with you, though, by bringing other points to the table. But I'm not so shallow as to disregard everything you say.



If you dont like armenians and beeing around them why you be double faced and go to their weddings instead of beeing honest and refusing their invitations ?

Well that was about 10 years ago before I actually studied the region's history more in-depth. After my many interactions with them I was almost convinced that Turks were inherently evil people, who will be punished by God. :p

[Energia]

Well everyone has an opinion, this is just mine on the matter. You are of course welcome to disagree with me but I won't regard you as filth personally just because of it. I am not anti-Armenian per se, I just dislike all the propaganda and overtly aggressive nationalism.

I like them for the very same reason, I admire and somewhat envy they impressive will to power.
We're talking of a volk who's been throu foreign occupations for hundreds of years, diasporas, massacres and genocides.
Now they're surrounded by aliens, the Turks, the Azeris, the Arabs*, the Persians but nonetheless they don't even think to give it up.

They have definitely balls :thumb001:

I'd like also the Europeans were like them but look at us, how pathetic we've became. :picard2:

Keep fighting for your survival, freedom and identity my Armenian brothers, with every tool, in every way, till the end.

:)

[SILNI]

there are many northern europeans such as yourself who feel close to turks or modern azeris (caucasian tatars) of today.
Northern europeans close to turks? I sure hope this isn't the truth , but if it is , no wonder they are dying out.

[RussiaPrussia]

I am really neutral geopolitically (whether I "like" people or not) - if you can convince me of something with true facts I will not go against it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Nagorno-Karabakh_Republic#Ethnic_groups_.5B6.5D_.5B7.5D

this is true fact

[Loki]

Northern europeans close to turks? I sure hope this isn't the truth , but if it is , no wonder they/we are dying out.

No, but there is a theory that Odin and his band came from that area, or were even a Turk(ic).

[Loki]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Nagorno-Karabakh_Republic#Ethnic_groups_.5B6.5D_.5B7.5D

this is true fact

Yes yes I know that ... after forceful deportations of indigenous Azerbaijanis in the previous century and after.

[RussiaPrussia]

Yes yes I know that ... after forceful deportations of indigenous Azerbaijanis in the previous century and after.

then you could also argue that almost all of east turkey should belong to armenia.

[SILNI]

No, but there is a theory that Odin and his band came from that area, or were even a Turk(ic).
I never heard about that theory , all pagans I talked online despise/hate turks , I sure will bring this theory into discussion next time they start bullying me about christianity :D

[Loki]

then you could also argue that almost all of east turkey should belong to armenia.

lol no way ... the Ottoman Empire existed from 1299 already, and hundreds of years before that Seljuk Turks settled there already. Many intermixed with the indigenous inhabitants (who were not only Armenian), and in the past few centuries Armenians were just one of several ethnicities living in that area. Turks & Kurds too.

[Loki]

I never heard about that theory , all pagans I talked online despise/hate turks , I sure will bring this theory into discussion next time they start bullying me about christianity :D

Those pagans should read up a bit :)

Ask them what they know about Snorri Sturluson and the Eddas. There is also new genetic evidence that found Central Asian DNA in Scandinavia ... Kipchak Hakan posted it a while ago.

[Hoca]

Turkic history is so big. Everyday I discover something new.

[Musso]

If there was another war about that area, the outcome would be certain. Azerbaijan's defense spending is ten times that of Armenia.

Outcome would not be certain at all. That's what Soviets thought before invading Afghanistan where the difference in capability was much bigger and they got their a*ses handed to them. Trying to re-take a highly mountainous area, with a skilled armed force, well entrenched, with advance defence capabilities (etc. S300 misilles and other such hardware) is very difficult. Actually in the wikileaks cables US defence experts said that Aliyev was fooling himself if he thought he could retake Karabakh.


And State Department cables also released by Wikileaks made clear that in U.S. assessment, despite the military build-up and threatening rhetoric, Azerbaijan remains incapable of launching a successful military campaign against Armenia.

[DJVT]

Well everyone has an opinion, this is just mine on the matter. You are of course welcome to disagree with me but I won't regard you as filth personally just because of it. I am not anti-Armenian per se, I just dislike all the propaganda and overtly aggressive nationalism.

Besides, many Northern Europeans feel spiritually close to Azerbaijanis for good reason ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZJ1-cIAYMc

The most filthy propaganda is made by the Turks :) and no, northern or western Europeans dont feel close to Azerbaijanis spiritually.
We al know why you like turks so much because they are funding members here mostly so you praise them. And no they are not indeginous in NK.

[Pallantides]

Besides, many Northern Europeans feel spiritually close to Azerbaijanis for good reason ...



This one is new to me...

:confused:

[Loki]

The most filthy propaganda is made by the Turks :) and no, northern or western Europeans dont feel close to Azerbaijanis spiritually.


I am not talking about the ordinary man on the street who knows nothing about history and hasn't delved into it. Not everyone agrees with that theory anyway.



We al know why you like turks so much because they are funding members here mostly so you praise them. And no they are not indeginous in NK.

That's a load of bollocks :p

[Loki]

This one is new to me...

:confused:

See my next post ;)

Btw did you read Kipchak's posts about Central Asian DNA found among Scandinavians?

[DJVT]

I am not talking about the ordinary man on the street who knows nothing about history and hasn't delved into it. Not everyone agrees with that theory anyway.



That's a load of bollocks :p

The first sentence or the second? the first one maybe but you act suspicious, The second one, I'm afraid im right.

[Pallantides]

Loki you might find this interesting:
http://www.dagbladet.no/2011/09/29/kultur/litteratur/anmeldelser/bok/bokanmeldelser_fra_dagbladet/18351245/
Some Norwegian historians believe there was a Hunnish presence in Scandinavia.




Can you show me a link to Kipchak's post?

[Loki]

Can you show me a link to Kipchak's post?

Sure I'll have a look for that.

[Loki]

Pallantides, have a look here:

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/btn_Archeology/FauxDKGeneticLinkOfVikingEn.htm

Abstract

There is general agreement that by 8000 BC the retreat of the glaciers had left most of Scandinavia open for human settlement; that there has likely been continuous settlement in Norway and Sweden since this time.

It is generally accepted that descendants of these hunter – gatherers from three southern European glacial refugia ultimately became the Scandinavian Vikings circa 800 AD. What has not been adequately addressed is the evidence demonstrating that there was a significant movement of people, as well as their horses and cultural traditions, from Central Asia to Scandinavia in the years immediately prior to the Viking - Era. Many or most explorations of the matter have assumed that trade explains the appearance of all the Central Asian finds in Scandinavia. What this approach fails to explain is the presence of Scandinavians with DNA signatures that are not European, but which bear a direct link to the Caucasus Mountain and Central Asian regions. It is also argued here that it was this population shift and consequent cultural upheavals that sparked the Scandinavian expansions in the years to follow. What makes the present study entirely different from those who have addressed (often somewhat controversially) this matter is the reliance on Y chromosome genetic evidence. Historical, linguistic, archaeological data sources are used to support the Central Asian migration hypothesis. The focus of the present study is to cross – validate these other sources of evidence by analyzing the results of testing of the non – recombining part of the Y chromosome (NRY). This male lineage marker is known for its power as a tool in the exploration of human population movements. In this case it is shown that not only did human groups migrate from Central Asia to Scandinavia, but in addition genetic evidence concludes that the horses so important in Scandinavian life also originated in Mongolia, and were brought to Scandinavia at approximately the same time as the proposed migration of humans. It is argued that these people with a long history of using horses and ships to extract wealth and territory from opponents are the most likely candidates for the leaders of those who founded the Norse colonies such as the Shetland Islands circa 800AD and Iceland circa 870AD. The most important contribution of the present study is to use Y-DNA genetic databases with samples scattered from Mongolia to Britain to show the continuity of genetic marker patterns from the Shetland Islands and other Norse colonies to groups such as the Altai of Central Asia, and the Azeri of Azerbaijan, and the lack of similarity of this subset of the Scandinavian population to local Eastern Europeans.

[ALL]

...

[Partizan]

Exactly. Armenian is classified as a Indo-European.

As language, yes. But as looks and genetics, they rather overlap with Semitic people.

[Loki]

Exactly. Armenian is classified as a Indo-European.

The Indo part must be emphasized. They are quite dark. They show South Asian genetic influence if I remember correctly.

[Onur]

Slight deviation, but on the topic of absurd borders.

Anyone care to guess what the purpose of that thin strip and blob at the top is?
Not a deviation at all. Thanks for posting this map.

Let me tell you what is the cause of these absurd maps; It`s the fucking Kremlin and their grotesque Soviet policies.


Nevertheless, Karabakh's declaration of independence was legal in accordance with Soviet Law
WTF is Soviet law? Is there any validity of it? The so-called "Soviet law" ever had any validity at all?

The division of Germany and the Berlin wall was THE "Soviet law" too. But was it valid?

[ALL]

...

[Partizan]

Azerbaijani Turk...

Karabağ is not only soil stolen from Azerbaijan...

http://davam.az/uploads/posts/2012-08/1344580926_butov-azerbaycan-2.jpg

[Loki]

Not a deviation at all. Thanks for posting this map.

Let me tell you what is the cause of these absurd maps; It`s the fucking Kremlin and their grotesque Soviet policies.

Well the North Ossetians are quite happy to be part of Russia, and South Ossetia (de facto independent) would love to join Russia as well.

[ALL]

...

[Pallantides]

Azerbaijani and I bet Thor Heyerdahl would have agreed with me!:D

[Loki]

Azerbaijani Turk...

Karabağ is not only soil stolen from Azerbaijan...

http://davam.az/uploads/posts/2012-08/1344580926_butov-azerbaycan-2.jpg

Truly a touching map ... I feel for the Azeris.

[Hoca]

Azerbaijan of course. Under international law it says it is Azerbaijani land. Armenia doesn't have power to change this.

[Partizan]

Can you be more precise what genetics?

Sure...

http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/2927/westcentraleurasialabel.png

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ztxlQ68e19Q/TnC0Z0rW6bI/AAAAAAAAEHc/MQny_v-ygqQ/s1600/pca-caucasus.png

Armenians appear like Turkish+Palestinian or Chechen+Yemeni hybrids.

[ALL]

...

[Onur]

Well the North Ossetians are quite happy to be part of Russia, and South Ossetia (de facto independent) would love to join Russia as well.
Well, that might be the case today but this is a result of grotesque "Soviet Law", the so-called law mentioned by the Armenian guy here.

Peoples thoughts can be manipulated and diverted under these kind of "laws" and it`s mostly doesn't represent the morals and truth. The Ossetia should belong to Georgians like northern Ireland belongs to Ireland. For example, northern Irelanders feels closer to England today but is this represents the justice and the truth?

[Loki]

The Ossetia should belong to Georgians like northern Ireland belongs to Ireland.

Whoah, Ossetians left to the mercy of Georgians? :D Rather that they be independent on their own. They're neither Russian nor Georgian.

[ALL]

...

[Illancha]

Well the North Ossetians are quite happy to be part of Russia, and South Ossetia (de facto independent) would love to join Russia as well.
That whole region starting from the top to the end of the thin strip was historically Ingush and Kabarday land. During the Caucasian War, Imperialist forces were worried that the Circassians on the Western Front might join forces with the Chechen-Dagestani alliance to the East, this would obviously significantly hinder their advance. To prevent this from happening they built a chain of forts down the middle dividing the region. That is what the strip represents on the map.

Under Soviet rule instead of returning the lands to their respective owners they gave them to Ossetia. Why? Well it's quite obvious, instead of having to deal with the Caucasians themselves why not have them fight amongst themselves and divert their attention from the true culprit.

My hope is that one day the Caucasian nations will wake up and realise who the real enemy is.

[Partizan]

Very good ,however you are posting autosomal comparison's. For example, ydna [I] can be found in the Caucasus[I*][I2] or Scandinavia[I] I can almost guarantee you with 100% that all will plot differently, yet they share a common paternal ancestor.
The same can be said for ydna E or ydna R.

Well, based on the theory which claims Proto-Armenians(Hays) migrated from Balkans to Southern Caucasus after staying around Syria for a while, we can claim that Armenians are paternally Paleo-Balkanic but maternally and autosomally West/South-West Asian.

http://azerinfo.eu/en/uploads/posts/2012-11/1352387563_armenler.jpg

To me, autosomal DNA results are more important. For example let's think about a Viking ship lost its route badly and landed around today's Senegal. They bred with African women but after centuries, those guys will be more black autosomally since they will breed with Africans. So, if half of males in such a Senegalese village belong in Y-DNA I1, can we consider them as "Scandinavian" instead of West African?

[ALL]

...

[SKYNET]

he is also Indo-European, isn't he?


https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSb9OeuEfzhb5OydrV5CnNhncraykBMM EckGBdt51sJ63qUkA0r


this one, too


http://wodumedia.com/wp-content/uploads/New-Delhi-India-an-old-man-holds-the-Indian-flag-at-an-anti-corruption-protest.jpg




non Indo-European (Finnic)

http://en.trend.az/article_photo/Sauli_Niynistane_121212.jpg

[Partizan]

"Azerbaijani or Azeri[3][4][5] (Azərbaycanca, Azərbaycan dili) is a language belonging to the Turkic language family,"

Caucasian Albania=Indo-European

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania

Armenians autosomally cluster closer to Yemenis even more than Kurds or Persians so I think they are hardly compatible to the charismatic guy in your avatar(frankly, I don't consider him as IE as well, that is another topic).

Plus, as far as I know, Caucasian Albanian is Dene-Caucasian and considered as "Lezgic".