Girl Taught Black People Should Die

[Loyalist]

A girl at the centre of a child custody battle was taught by her parents that minorities should die and was exposed to violent racist videos, a court heard Monday.

The girl was also familiar with Nazi phrases such as "Heil Hitler" and would talk calmly about how black people could be killed, a social worker testified.

"She said you would whip black people with a ball and chain and they would die," testified the social worker, who cannot be identified under Manitoba law.

The worker was the first witness at a trial that is to determine whether the province's child welfare agency will gain permanent custody of the girl and her younger brother, who were seized from their parental home last year.

The social worker was called to the girl's school after the girl showed up with white supremacist slogans written on her skin - writings which she appeared to understand fully.

"She told me that what people don't understand is that black people should die," the social worker said.

The child repeatedly used racial epithets for blacks, Asians, Arabs and other minorities during a 45-minute conversation, the social worker testified.

Court heard the children also had access to a skinhead website and were shown videos depicting racial violence.

The girl's mother has denied teaching her children hatred. She was not in court and her request for an adjournment though a lawyer was denied. The stepfather, who is fighting to regain custody on constitutional grounds, sat quietly, frequently biting his nails.

In court documents, the father argues the seizure of his children violates his freedom of conscience, belief and association under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

"I believe that there is no legal basis for the children having been apprehended," he wrote in an affidavit.

The case has garnered international attention and sparked debate over how far parents can go to instill beliefs in their children.

The court hearing is scheduled to run all week and for another week at the end of June.

Source (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090525/national/racism_child_seizure)

[Spaniard_Truth]

This is a difficult case, because, let's be honest, the parents were probably abusive weirdos and the evidence in the tribunal will be more than was reported.

BUT, no way on Earth can I support the idea of the state abducting children because it disagrees with the parents' politics. Parents teach kids all kinds of stupid ideas, religious, social, political etc. It is their right. I dislike such loaded and tendentious words as 'abuse' which is so selective as to be meaningless. What constitutes abuse? Teaching children unorthodox views? How about any non-conformist opinions whatsoever?

The state despises dissent. The greater the dissent, the greater the need to eradicate it. But it is in the interest of all freedom loving people to defend the rights of every other person, or else the state will pick people off one by one, gain momentum and start taking greater and greater liberties on our rights.

In don't agree with parents pushing their views on their children. But I agree even less with the state doing so on other people's children.

[Beorn]

There's nothing wrong in instilling a sense of pride and awareness of ones race and culture within your own children, and indeed children on the whole, but the beautification of the Nazi regime and the out and out hatred with which the parents taught the child in relation to other races is plain wrong.

I wouldn't want a child to be separated from the parents, but some sort of arrangement would need to be implemented here.

[Vulpix]

There's nothing wrong in instilling a sense of pride and awareness of ones race and culture within your own children, and indeed children on the whole, but the beautification of the Nazi regime and the out and out hatred with which the parents taught the child in relation to other races is plain wrong.

I wouldn't want a child to be separated from the parents, but some sort of arrangement would need to be implemented here.

Some points:
-Just here or in all similar cases of children indoctrination?
-How to define it?
-If it had been a Muslim family imposing something similar on their children (ie "all infidels should be killed", etc), would there have been an intervention?

[Beorn]

-Just here or in all similar cases of children indoctrination?

In all cases with the absence of physical or mental abuse.


-If it had been a Muslim family imposing something similar on their children (ie "all infidels should be killed", etc), would there have been an intervention?


In America or any other Western country, I would have hoped so although I'm sure there is a process of eliminating the above example through not wishing to interfere with cultural enrichment of foreign cultures.

[SwordoftheVistula]

the parents were probably abusive weirdos and the evidence in the tribunal will be more than was reported.

I can't speak for the father as I have never met him, but the mother is a pretty nice person, as usual the media distorts things to make nationalists look bad.


There's nothing wrong in instilling a sense of pride and awareness of ones race and culture within your own children, and indeed children on the whole, but the beautification of the Nazi regime and the out and out hatred with which the parents taught the child in relation to other races is plain wrong.

Who decides what is acceptable and what is not? Governments should not be able to decide what values children are taught. Otherwise, whatever ideology is in place in the government at that time will just ban the teachings of opposing ideologies and force conformity to it.

[Beorn]

Who decides what is acceptable and what is not?

No one, per se, but you can't build a society around such outright hatred.


Governments should not be able to decide what values children are taught.

I agree except for cases such as these.

[Spaniard_Truth]

I can't speak for the father as I have never met him, but the mother is a pretty nice person, as usual the media distorts things to make nationalists look bad.


Sorry. I didn't expect anyone to know them. I assumed there was more to the case because the article didn't seem to state clearly why there was a custody dispute. I thought there was more to the case than the racial aspect.

But, yes, the media isn't to be trusted, as I have said in the past. It's interesting to see how gullible the general public can be. Check out this page and read the idiotic comments: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2009/05/25/mb-swastika-parents-winnipeg.html#socialcomments

Also count the number of thumbs up/thumbs down for each post. It is truly depressing to see the people supporting the government in their own oppression.

[Absinthe]

I oppose indoctrination of any form in children, and the same goes for the similar, albeit a bit classier, case of the Prussian Blue Mom.

Teach your children values, bring them up properly, cultivate their intelligence and then let them choose their own paths, ffs.

Dressing your 10 year-olds with Hitler t-shirts (http://nathanielstern.com/blog/wp-content/prussianbluecopy.jpg) and make them sing Skrewdriver songs is appalling and has nothing to do with instilling pride, and no matter how cute it may look to some, it's nothing more than the mother's egoistic need to show off her own self by pushing her daughters into the WN show-biz. :....

[SwordoftheVistula]

I oppose indoctrination of any form in children...

Teach your children values

What's the difference there? They both mean the same thing, even if they have different connotations.


and then let them choose their own paths, ffs.

That didn't work out too well for the WWII era generation which raised the 'baby boomers' or '1968 generation'.

[Absinthe]

What's the difference there? They both mean the same thing, even if they have different connotations.

Teaching your children morals and values is not the same thing as enrolling them in the Party or exposing them to racist videos (as in the case of the article).

If you fail to see the difference then I cannot add anything else to this question, sorry. :)

[Sarmata]

I oppose indoctrination of any form in children, and the same goes for the similar, albeit a bit classier, case of the Prussian Blue Mom.

Teach your children values, bring them up properly, cultivate their intelligence and then let them choose their own paths, ffs.

Dressing your 10 year-olds with Hitler t-shirts (http://nathanielstern.com/blog/wp-content/prussianbluecopy.jpg) and make them sing Skrewdriver songs is appalling and has nothing to do with instilling pride, and no matter how cute it may look to some, it's nothing more than the mother's egoistic need to show off her own self by pushing her daughters into the WN show-biz. :....

Well I sing often Skrewdriver songs with my 3 year old son:D WHITE POWER 1,2,3,4... No it's just a joke. Just song with "1,2,3,4..." in fact(without WHITE POWER and "Sieg Heil":D
And You're right that we should teach children values , love to the fatherland etc.Unfortunatelly young people doing often everything against their parents:) Moreover childrens minds are not critical and that's why younger persons are often more radical than older. What is rather funny;)(ofcourse not for that young persons). However hard function of parent is to bring up child/children, it's task still before me... I can imagined situation when my child will face some PC propaganda-I heard about "education"(better word "brainwash") programs about homosexuals, holocaust etc. for pre. school children:eek: in Western Europe) that probably will made some troubles in the future...

[Psychonaut]

Teaching your children morals and values is not the same thing as enrolling them in the Party or exposing them to racist videos (as in the case of the article).

If you fail to see the difference then I cannot add anything else to this question, sorry. :)

I see them both as basic freedom of speech issues. It's important that even whackos like this maintain their rights to speak freely and to teach their own children whatever they wish. The moment that the government gets the go-ahead to start regulating what kinds of ideas you're allowed to teach your children would be a dark, dark day for all of us whose opinions run counter to the government's. While this case is certainly extreme, a ban on this kind of "indoctrination," could very well be used to support legislation that would make it illegal for you do teach your children that miscegenation is wrong. Things like this have proven themselves time and time again to truly be a slippery slope.

[Loyalist]

There's more. :rolleyes:


A social worker says the mother of a child who went to school with a white supremacist symbol drawn on her arm didn't see why her daughter should have to sit next to Muslims.

The social worker, who is testifying at a custody hearing, says the mother also didn't seem to understand why it was wrong to laugh if her young son beat up a black child.

The social worker told a Winnipeg court that the mother didn't see anything wrong with having "white pride" either.

The worker suggested the mother drew the symbol on the girl to "deliver a message to the school."

Manitoba Child and Family Services is trying to gain permanent custody of the two children over concerns about their home environment, which allegedly included drug and alcohol abuse.

Their mother has denied raising her children to be racists.

Source (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090527/national/racism_child_seizure)

[Aemma]

Who decides what is acceptable and what is not? Governments should not be able to decide what values children are taught. Otherwise, whatever ideology is in place in the government at that time will just ban the teachings of opposing ideologies and force conformity to it.

Well yes, Sword. But the problem with this case in particular is that we have deeply entrenched Hate Laws here in Canada. (Don't forget that this is a Canadian case). The generally perceived 'aggressive' language and tone used by and general attitude of this child are more than likely what caught the reporting party's attention in this particular instance resulting in a visit by a Child Protection/Children's Aid social worker. You can't forget that Canada doesn't have as strong of a libertarian focus as the USA does. It just is what it is.

Cheers Sword and all!...Aemma :)

[Psychonaut]

You can't forget that Canada doesn't have as strong of a libertarian focus as the USA does. It just is what it is.

I think the question here is this: does the is outweigh the ought? Are governmental prohibitions against free speech justified by their mere existence? I think the answer in both cases is a resounding no.

[Revenant]

The worker suggested the mother drew the symbol on the girl to "deliver a message to the school."

A message to the PC indoctrination facility.:confused:

They sound like total morons. I wonder what sort of Orwellian type re-education the court will order the parents do to get their kids back.

[Vulpix]

Well yes, Sword. But the problem with this case in particular is that we have deeply entrenched Hate Laws here in Canada. (Don't forget that this is a Canadian case). The generally perceived 'aggressive' language and tone used by and general attitude of this child are more than likely what caught the reporting party's attention in this particular instance resulting in a visit by a Child Protection/Children's Aid social worker. You can't forget that Canada doesn't have as strong of a libertarian focus as the USA does. It just is what it is.


Franky, I am highly skeptical there would have been an intervention at all if the family involved hadn't been white. Do you think otherwise?

[Revenant]

I think the question here is this: does the is outweigh the ought? Are governmental prohibitions against free speech justified by their mere existence? I think the answer in both cases is a resounding no.

They are when nobody is holding Govt to account. But you're right of course.

[Aemma]

I see them both as basic freedom of speech issues. It's important that even whackos like this maintain their rights to speak freely and to teach their own children whatever they wish. The moment that the government gets the go-ahead to start regulating what kinds of ideas you're allowed to teach your children would be a dark, dark day for all of us whose opinions run counter to the government's. While this case is certainly extreme, a ban on this kind of "indoctrination," could very well be used to support legislation that would make it illegal for you do teach your children that miscegenation is wrong. Things like this have proven themselves time and time again to truly be a slippery slope.

Well speaking as a Canadian first with respect to this, I have to say that I am divided in terms of this kind of a categorical stance though Psy. Here in Canada, rightly or wrongly, we've set limits as to what constitutes freedom of speech. It's a bit like being on this forum if you will. We have a very open forum here in terms of what goes, but there are limits. It's the same thing in my country but on a macro scale if you will. As a nation we its people have decided how we want to live as a community of Canadians. This is what makes us, those who make a conscious choice to live here, Canadian, and others, well, not I suppose.

Ahhh it's a dicey issue and I can't really do it justice I'm afraid. But in thinking about this issue you also need to look at Canada's laws in terms of our own country's socio-political and historical context in order to really understand them. In the end, you might come to the same conclusion and not agree, but at least you would have understood where and how this line of thinking has come from. I guess what I'm saying, with all due respect to you of course and to my other American friends here, is that you can't view Canada through "American eyes" and expect to understand her. Does this make sense? Do you understand what I'm getting at? :( I might not be expressing myself very well of course. And I do see your point of view of course. That goes without saying, I hope you know. But in the end, we are different--all our respective indoctrinations are different, yours and mine. :)

As for perhaps one day making it illegal to teach our children that miscegenation is wrong, no. I don't see how one can logically make that leap in argument. One does not necessarily point to the other. Speaking as a Canadian, I don't see how any of that could ever happen here quite honestly especially since we work on a mosaic model and not a melting pot one, as you do. The integrity of cultural/ethnic groups here is very much a priority in many respects and presupposes a certain level of respect in terms of like wanting to marry like. Seriously, I can't even fathom this as a possibility, much less a probability in this country.

A few thoughts from this Canadian for what it's worth....

Cheers Psy!...Aemma :)

[Aemma]

Franky, I am highly skeptical there would have been an intervention at all if the family involved hadn't been white. Do you think otherwise?


No these Hate Laws apply to everybody. If some Muslim child were to come into the same school and start talking about a religious jihad, death to Western culture, death to the Jews, you'd get the same reaction and same intervention. It goes both ways.


I think the question here is this: does the is outweigh the ought? Are governmental prohibitions against free speech justified by their mere existence? I think the answer in both cases is a resounding no.

See my next post. We're different countries. That kind of question can't be reasonably asked nor reasonably answered imho. This is why we're called Canada, and you're called the United States of America. :) If we all agreed and shared the same vision, then we would all be the same country wouldn't we? But we're not. :) I'm not sure how else to state the sentiment right now. :)


They are when nobody is holding Govt to account. But you're right of course.

Well with all due respect Revenant, I doubt you know very much about Canada, her politics, her political history or her domestic social policy. So I'll have to take this kind of comment with a huge grain salt.

[Solwyn]

Yeah.

No fun being an Odinist in Winnipeg right now.

I have my opinions about this case because I've been following it in the local papers since it broke a year ago. A year ago I saw things completely differently, but since then I've nosed around. My opinions aren't positive, LOL. I would love to have those children because I would love to raise them in a positive Odinist home where we teach that it is entirely possible to be proud of your heritage without demonizing someone else's. I may as well take a number and get in line, though, because these kids will be the most popular wards of the province this year. Everyone wants them.

You have to understand that the more we learn about the parents, the more they come off as the type of white supremacists that you'd see on Jerry Springer - ill-educated, and spewing bile and pseudoscientific crap masked as fact. They are the sort that make me want to distance myself from anyone having anything to do with European pride or heritage movements.

It is unfortunate that they lost their kids because I hate to see a family broken up. They were neglectful idiots, though, and it wasn't as if the authorities just suddenly swooped in based on one incident. The daughter showing up to school with the swastika scribbled on her arm was the straw that broke the camel's back. They were already being watched by the school and for child neglect and they were known to the authorities already for a host of other things.

[Óttar]

This family was not merely teaching their children to be proud of their own heritage. They were teaching the children it was OK to defame and commit acts of violence against other private citizens. The report also stated there was suspected alcohol and drug abuse in the home.

[Lady L]

I would love to have those children because I would love to raise them in a positive Odinist home where we teach that it is entirely possible to be proud of your heritage without demonizing someone else's.

Very good Solwyn, :)

Any parent with a real brain would realize basically all they have to do is teach their children their own culture and heritage instead of waisting all that time on hate. They are to worried about hating instead of loving their own kind. :rolleyes:

[Spaniard_Truth]

I honestly don't see any essential difference between these parents and average North American parents who teach their children to believe in Jesus, take them to church, make them watch The Passion Of The Christ, and tell them to hate atheists and sinners. Probably because there isn't one.

Edit: As one of a thousand possible examples.

[Óttar]

I honestly don't see any essential difference between these parents and average North American parents who teach their children to believe in Jesus, take them to church, make them watch The Passion Of The Christ, and tell them to hate atheists and sinners. Probably because there isn't one.

Edit: As one of a thousand possible examples.


I agree. I don't see any real difference either, but I'm glad that these children will get a chance to grow up in a more healthy environment.

[jerney]

oh how cute, white trash.

[Karaten]

She said you would whip black people with a ball and chain and they would die


Well they would!

[Psychonaut]

Here in Canada, rightly or wrongly, we've set limits as to what constitutes freedom of speech.

I know what you and most European nations have done; I'm questioning whether or not this is right. Do you feel that the government has the right to tell you what you can and cannot say? Do you think that the government has the right to tell you what you can teach your children? When you are prevented from speaking about something and prevented from teaching something, it becomes impossible for that idea to be propagated. By controlling what you are allowed to say, you are giving your government the ability to dictate what the next generation will think. Given the increasing liberalism of the West, is this a choice that you are comfortable with? I know that Libertarian ideals are generally thought of as an American thing, but the principles should be contemplated by all those who believe themselves to be sovereign entities and not mere subjects of a state.


As for perhaps one day making it illegal to teach our children that miscegenation is wrong, no. I don't see how one can logically make that leap in argument. One does not necessarily point to the other.

It's like this: if a government (any, not just yours) decides that any particular kind of "hate" speech is illegal, the government can and will (as we've seen with every totalitarian state in the last century) then use this to increase their control over what can and cannot be said; this then translates into governmental control over what can and cannot be thought. If, for example, it is deemed that imparting "racism" to your child is illegal, who is it that defines what racism is? Given that social attitudes have been getting progressively more liberal in the West since the turn of the century, there can be no doubt that what will be considered "racist" fifty years from now will be that which is still somewhat commonplace nowadays. Fifty years ago, it was just common sense that miscegenation was wrong, but nowadays no public figure or politician will dare to say anything of the sort. This has already fallen under the umbrella of "racism." So, if you, the people, give the government permission to tell you both what is racist and that you can't say racist things, you've given them a blank check continually increase their control over you. It is not common at all for governments to willingly decrease their hold over a people or to decrease their influence. It is the nature of government to seek more and more power. It is our job as citizens to prevent this from happening as much as we can. He might have been an American, but I hope the words of Thomas Jefferson ring true to you:


"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

[SwordoftheVistula]

No these Hate Laws apply to everybody. If some Muslim child were to come into the same school and start talking about a religious jihad, death to Western culture, death to the Jews, you'd get the same reaction and same intervention.

That's all standard muslim beliefs, and I haven't seen any news stories about any muslims being prosecuted.

The general plan is to make 'hate' illegal, and then declare everything they don't like as 'hate'.

[Solwyn]

Below is a link from today's edition. Like I said, the doodling on the arm was the straw that broke the camel's back. To be honest, my son loves to doodle on himself. He always has, for as long as I can remember. Whoever hooks up with him is going to have to love a man COVERED in tattoos because that's what is coming. He has gone to school plastered in runes and other Odinist spiritual symbols, in every colour that Crayola sells, and other than a request this year for him not to coat his arms (because it is distracting for the girls, I am told - LOLOL!!!! See? It's coming......) no one has picked at him for what he's chosen to adorn himself with. He was asked once by a teacher and when he was able to explain intelligently what the runes and solar cross were, the response, apparently, was "Cool."

I was freaked out about this when the case first broke because I had visions of my son doodling Thor's Hammer on his arm and never coming home again, but the more I learned, the more I agree with CFS. Those kids need a more positive environment where they will be cared for appropriately and not neglected.

Like I said earlier, and at another forum a year ago, I would love to have those kids, if only so that they CAN grow up around their own folk and learn how to keep their own beliefs alive whilst respecting those of others. However, the fact that I am also an Odinist would most likely not go in my favour because I would not lie and say I was Episcopalian or Presbytarian just to be a foster parent.

It is episodes like this, though, that serve as a reminder to me that we need to be aware of who is watching and that we put our best foot forward at all times. Most of the public doesn't have two sweet bloody clues about Odinism or Asatru and when they do hear about it, this shit is what they learn. It is important that anyone who will be concerned about discrimination and religious profiling, etc, understand that we are all ambassadors for whatever it is that we choose to represent publicly and that we should try to live somewhat visibly as heathens. There is a reason why our belief systems are associated with prison gangs and violent morons - they are what people see. They don't see those of us out there going to work, paying our bills, raising our kids, and being good neighbors because we allow the white trash like this to scare us into the house.

http://www.winnipegsun.com/news/winnipeg/2009/05/29/9608346-sun.html

[Atlas]

It's up to the kids - once he is old enough - to decide as to whether minorities have the right to live, which political party he likes etc. Those parents are total asshole.

[SwordoftheVistula]

It's up to the kids - once he is old enough - to decide as to whether minorities have the right to live, which political party he likes etc. Those parents are total asshole.

If the parents don't teach them, then their opinions will be formed by the media, teachers, etc

[Supreme American]

She'd have been fine if she was just taught that white folks should die.

[Supreme American]

If the parents don't teach them, then their opinions will be formed by the media, teachers, etc

The latter tell the kids to ignore the former.

[Sikeliot]

She'd have been fine if she was just taught that white folks should die.

That may be likely, but that doesn't excuse what her parents did. It would still be wrong regardless of who "should die" and the belief is being pushed onto the children.

The parents set this girl up to behave a certain way that she would pose a threat to others' safety in the real world when she grows up or even goes to school. I don't see how that can be excused.