Introducing Latvia

[Inese]

Hello there!

Loki opened this forum on my request so I think it is my duty to make the first posting! :cool: I try to give you a fitting impression of my former home country and to show some interesting pictures. I am also of 1/4 German ancestry because of my grandfather, so I will say some words to the history of the shown pictures.


This is Latvia in Northeastern Europe:

http://static.lonelyplanet.com/worldguide/maps/wg-latvia-2039-400x300.gif


And I come from the western part of Latvia, the name of the region is "Kurzeme". "Kurzeme" is the latvian word for "Kurland" and "Kurland" is the historical name of this region given by the order who settled there in medivial ages.

http://www.ownersdirect.co.uk/photos/rl386.jpg


Kurzeme is known for the wonderful countryside and nice, historical villages and cities. Many of these cities have also German names because they were founded by the Teutonic orders or were extremely influenced by them. And Kurzeme was for a long time a part of the Hanse. (It´s like that again after the fall of the Sovjetunion when we regained freedom.)

This picture shows the situation in Latvia during the time of the Teutonic Knights:

http://www.imperialteutonicorder.com/db3/00209/imperialteutonicorder.com/_uimages/Teutonic_state_1455.png


There you can see also some of the old German names for the cities in Latvia.

Daugvapils - German: Dünaburg
Liepāja - German: Libau
Ventspils - German: Windau
Jelgava - German: Mitau
Kuldiga - German: Goldingen
Rēzekne - German: Rositten
Jēkabpils - German: Jakobstadt

Now I will post some pictures of my region, Kurzeme, to show you the beauty of the country and it´s towns and villages!


http://www.budgettravel.lv/eng/px/sight/latvia/talsi_kurzeme.jpg

A typical village in Kurzeme. Talsi.


http://www.dabasretumi.lv/Atteli/Pieminekli/Ukr/Ventas_Rumba%5B1%5D.jpg
http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/DANPOD/EU39_JMI0007_M~Sunrise-in-the-morning-mist-over-the-waterfall-on-the-Venta-River-near-Kuldiga-Latvia-Posters.jpg

The broadest waterfall in Europe! "Venta Rumba". The waterfall of the Venta River near Kuldiga.

http://cache.virtualtourist.com/2893025-Travel_Picture-Kuldiga.jpg

The famous bridge of Kuldiga. There are often international film crews! For the remake of the German movie "Die Brücke" least year for example.


Our beautiful baltic coast! The water is very clear there.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2124/2137968387_dbbf8c00b7.jpg?v=0


But don´t forget the thousands of smaller and larger lakes in our country!

http://www.ramsar.org/pictures/latvia-3new08.jpg


The preservation of old traditions and customs if very important in Latvia, for young and old people.

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/3729/agirlinlatviannationalcyf4.jpg
http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/7089/latvianceremonywreath32de5.jpg


Just visit my home country, you will never regret it! :wink

[Loki]

Wonderful pictures, I definitely want to see Latvia sometime.

:)

[Groenewolf]

Indeed wonderfull pictures. Makes you want to see it in real life.

[Celtic Knight]

Such a wonderful country.

[Alison]

Thanks for this thread, Inese! The pictures are beautiful. :)

[Exiled]

You Letts are a beautiful people. Do you have any Iranic characteristics as can be found elsewhere in the Baltic?

[Absinthe]

Sveiki! Kā tev iet? :) It must be a beautiful country. I've heard it's very traditional and pure, but also that you have various kinds of problems. I also heard that entrance in EU has made things so far, worse..not better.

I have good friends residing there and hopefully, I'll be visiting soon! :)

[Inese]

You Letts are a beautiful people. Do you have any Iranic characteristics as can be found elsewhere in the Baltic?
Iranic characteristics? :confused: What do you mean with that? I´m not so good in this science but we have no relationship with Iran/Persian or other groups of people from Neareast.


Sveiki! Kā tev iet? :)
Man iet labi. Paldies.

It must be a beautiful country. I've heard it's very traditional and pure, but also that you have various kinds of problems. I also heard that entrance in EU has made things so far, worse..not better.
Latvia would be very pure if we hadn´t many Russians in our country. They were made to settle there in Sovjetunion age and are responsible for much mess, I can tell you! There are region in cities were pure Latvians are in minority position because of Russians and it angers a lot of people. This includes the parts of my family who stayed in Latvia.

When Russia invaded Georgia some months back many people in Latvia were thinking that Russia will try to re-gain the Baltic countries too. But the Latvian political leadership acted very good, and we are in the NATO now, of course. So if the Russians come to invade our wonderful Baltic country the whole Western world will stand in our row. They will not dare to attack Latvia again, that is my big hope.

I have found a very good video is my old latvian hometown , Kuldiga in Kurzeme! You can see the landscape, the city and our festivals. Give it a try please! :) Thank you.

KKSZ-g1KHEo

[Absinthe]

Paldies! It is beautiful :) I'd love to be there when they celebrate the summer solstice!

[Loki]

Iranic characteristics? :confused: What do you mean with that? I´m not so good in this science but we have no relationship with Iran/Persian or other groups of people from Neareast.


I must admit that confused me too. I don't know of any Iranic influence in the Baltic.

[Exiled]

The languages of the Baltic resemble Sanskrit. There are also people in that region who have an elements producing characteristics that are not the result of dinaricization. Rather, the elements of the older Indo-Europeans as the eastern Europeans have more of a true connection to the Aryan Scythians, Alans, Sarmatians, etc. than do the western Europeans.

http://www.balsas.lt/03/27/pushas.jpg

Both are Lithuanians.

[TheGreatest]

The languages of the Baltic resemble Sanskrit. There are also people in that region who have an elements producing characteristics that are not the result of dinaricization. Rather, the elements of the older Indo-Europeans as the eastern Europeans have more of a true connection to the Aryan Scythians, Alans, Sarmatians, etc. than do the western Europeans.

http://www.balsas.lt/03/27/pushas.jpg

Both are Lithuanians.

Excuse me for being so brash, but both these individuals are hardly representative of ethnic Litvins.
Both of them are Rossiyanes, translated into English as ''Russian'', citizens of the Former Soviet Union. The one on the left, could pass for a Gypsy or someone from the Caucus, and the one on the right, an Ukrainian Jew.
There aren't a whole lot of Litvin in the world. But I knew someone in class who was an ethnic Litvin. He looked a lot more like the original poster's pictures, than the one Exiled submitted

[GUSTAVUS ADOLPHUS]

Nice bice. I visited Riga this summer, and I loved it. Used to be the biggest city in Sweden, mind you.

[Absinthe]

My friends from Latvia are here, I am so happy! :) They brought me champagne from Riga :D and I learned two new words yesterday: Velns! :D and krēsla. I am anxious to learn more!

[Birka]

Thank you for the beautiful pictures of Latvia. I would love to visit some day, after I visit Lithuania, Poland and Germany.

[Spencer]

Thank you for the pictures. Very beautiful country. :)

[The Lawspeaker]

It looks like a country without extremes (in mountains or low points). Just endless forests, a couple of cities, some towns, villages and rivers and some pastures- a very calming landscape.
I have heard that the Baltic has some unknown gems like spa's and beach resorts hardly known in Western Europe..


I am going to add one picture that I stumbled upon while browsing Wikipedia for pictures (and ending up on a Latvian article)- the River Salaca in Northern Latvia.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/lv/a/a9/Salaca.JPG

[Brynhild]

I'd go there in a heartbeat! It looks so beautiful.

[Inese]

[FONT=Book Antiqua]It looks like a country without extremes (in mountains or low points). Just endless forests, a couple of cities, some towns, villages and rivers and some pastures- a very calming landscape.
Yes true but we have mini ski resorts too! :D Small hills but there are lifts and prepared slopes! Never say to Latvian people that they cant ski! We are very proud to have ski hills in our flat country ^_^

Zagarkalns:

http://cache.virtualtourist.com/2637065-Zagarkalns_in_Latvia-Latvia.jpg

And we have ski maps for that! lol! :tongue

http://www.nevasport.com/classic/mapas/mapa_4948.JPG

Other ski region is Baili...

http://www.skiurlaub-infos.com/resources/userdata/images/image/regionen/baili-skifahren-lettland.jpg

With GIGANTIC course....:rolleyes2: !

http://www.baili.lv/cache/karte_medium.jpg


I have heard that the Baltic has some unknown gems like spa's and beach resorts hardly known in Western Europe..
There are some but the Baltic sea is quite cold so you must like it. If you look mediterran water you are wrong here. But our water is very clear!

[Sigurd]

Yes true but we have mini ski resorts too! :D Small hills but there are lifts and prepared slopes! Never say to Latvian people that they cant ski! We are very proud to have ski hills in our flat country ^_^

LOL, that's an old joke of mine: "What is the difference between a Dutchman and a Latvian on skiing holiday? --- The Latvian at least manages to get to the skiing station, unlike the Dutchman he knows how to at least drive a car over snow." :wink :D

We Tyrolese call these skiing resorts a "baby hill". But all the more treacherous they are, as people who like I have been skiing since they were 1 1/2 years of age or so are easily tempted to just go for the direct way down, which makes you all the more prone to falling, I once had a terrible skiing crash at approx. 80-90 km/h (luckily escaped unhurt) because my ski simply came off after it bumped into the other. Damn snowboard trails making the resort unrideable at 3.45 PM... :rolleyes2:

Perhaps I shall try my luck one day at skiing in Latvia. There's so many wondrous things to do on a flat slope, as long as it isn't a dry slope (first time riding on a flat portion of a dry slope also resulted in a terrible fall, the ground resistance's much like skiing on gravel. :D

[Thorum]

Thanks Inese for such a wonderful posting. What a beautiful country with a rich history!! :thumb001:

[The Lawspeaker]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Riga_Jugendstil_Hausfassade.jpg


23ihqRf6sBI

I found this video about Art Nouveau-architecture in Riga (may be worth watching).
And I have found some pictures on Wikimedia (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Riga) as well. If anyone knows a better site, tell me.

[Inese]

There is a other very good made movie introducing Latvia , our nature , city and culture!! It begins with nature but after a minute you see all facettes!! :thumb001: It gives a good impression and is varied.

9RuNWWdhHSo

[Inese]

Other videos showing beauty of Latvia! :)

Sounds like Latvia ----- video of ministry foreign affair
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvCXLacM2sU


River cruise on Daugava at Riga!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXjsu3AbZqg


You want to see how my old home province Kurzeme ----- Courland in West Latvia look like??? Fasten the seatbelts and join the ralley ride!! :D:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPIMBXGgfmU

[Inese]

Now i am back and want to show you more sides of my country!! :thumb001:


The complete history of Latvia in a super funny version!! :D You must see it ---- much humor but true and the hopeful end is the best " do not disturb"!! ^_^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcKIeD3RxRQ



Students of my old school made a video about my town Kuldiga as a project and the video is good ---- different views of Kuldiga and you can see in to my former school also!! :wink

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mclSjwKRJJI


Here a nice video with my favourite folk music about Liepaja , the third biggest town of Latvia at the Baltic coast

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_RqhBNUJcw

[Inese]

Ok a short video of a folk fest in Kuldiga. The fest has the topic to remember our old culture and traditions and to show the times of our Baltic middle ages with middle ages music and knights who are fighting!! It take place in many places in Latvia! We have no professionals in Kuldiga but it is funny to watch :rolleyes: First a little music on the street and then a knight fight with a deadly end for one of them loool ^_^
The crazy guy who comes at minute 2:30 is a friend of my cousin and a small jerk --- you can see why :bounce: He plays instruments too. But the fest is not dead serious there is always much fun with it and no one of Kuldiga stays dry at the fest days

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFhpGYdqOlw

[Arrow Cross]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFhpGYdqOlw
I have a relative myself who's into the reenacting business, he's only a teen, but he's hand-crafted his own full chain mail armour and pretty much beat all his opponents on the international event held at Visegrád.

Good stuff, keep posting about your beautiful country.

[hereward]

Could you recommend any good reads regarding Latvians and Lithuanians(Balts in general), much appreciated.

[Daos]

Very nice, Inese! Now I know where I want to immigrate!:thumb001:

[Electronic God-Man]

Very nice, Inese! Now I know where I want to immigrate!:thumb001:

LOL, I wish Inese was around to see this.

[Daos]

LOL, I wish Inese was around to see this.

Me, too!:cool:

[RoyBatty]

Very nice, Inese! Now I know where I want to immigrate!:thumb001:

Oh dear...... there may be a surprise in stall when she reads this! :D :thumb001:

[Peachy Carnahan]

Give it a try please! :) Thank you.


Can you reccomend a nice b&b...no too far away from all the local amenities.
Thanks.

Peachy.

[Cail]

Could you recommend any good reads regarding Latvians and Lithuanians(Balts in general), much appreciated.

What are you interested in particularly?

[hereward]

Pretty much everthing, educated work on there background, the dawn of their entry into written history and more importantly, how they survived being surrounded by the two largest groups in Europe. Met them on site work since 00-01, mainly Lithuainians, I find them to have a set of looks all to themselves, in most cases.

[Cail]

Regarding linguistics and history, wikipedia has pretty good articles (i took part in writing them) -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balto-Slavic_languages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_languages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Lithuania


(if you require some more indepth information on Balto-Slavic languages and history, contact me in PMs or ask away here, that's my field of work).

As for


how they survived being surrounded by the two largest groups in Europe.

- basically, they didn't. What exists now (Lithuania, Žemaitija, Latgola, Latvia) is but a relict of a much larger number of Baltic peoples, largely assimilated by Germanics and Slavs throughout the history of Europe.

On the other hand, there's another possible point of view. The fact is, Slavs are Balts. The three original branches of Balts (western Balts, eastern Balts and Slavs) are roughly equidistant, and most likely a vast continuum existed before this (quite obscure) split. Thus, Slavs are one (initially small) part of said continuum that experienced a major expansion and assimilated nearly all the rest of the continuum.

[Inese]

Very nice, Inese! Now I know where I want to immigrate!:thumb001:
You can come as a visitor for vacations but not as a immigrant! Yes Latvia is wonderful and it stays wonderful without immigrants from Romania, Russia or somewhere else..


Can you reccomend a nice b&b...no too far away from all the local amenities.
Thanks.

Peachy.
Hello! Is b&b bred and breakfast? You know, i dont come from Riga but i know one who has a very little motel in Kuldiga my hometown. It is far away from Riga in West Latvia but if you want to visit the coast and the nature and want to meet normal Latvians then you can have good days in the Kurzeme region. A trip to Ventspils does not take long from Kuldiga. It is a little town but not overrun of Russians and other weired people like Riga! Most tourists visit Riga and never leave the town --- that is sad because Latvia has more to offer than Russian dominated red light districts and alcohol

[Osweo]

I was just wondering.... Why do you call Estonians 'iguanas'?
http://www.petcaregt.com/images/Iguana%20Mating.jpg
;)

[Äike]

I was just wondering.... Why do you call Estonians 'iguanas'?
http://www.petcaregt.com/images/Iguana%20Mating.jpg
;)

Probably after an Estonian county which we call "Ugandi".

http://www.geo.ut.ee/~raivo/img/Muinas.JPG

[Jarl]

I was just wondering.... Why do you call Estonians 'iguanas'?
http://www.petcaregt.com/images/Iguana%20Mating.jpg
;)


...coz they look like that? :rolleyes:

[RoyBatty]

You can come as a visitor for vacations but not as a immigrant! Yes Latvia is wonderful and it stays wonderful without immigrants from Romania, Russia or somewhere else..


But what about the poor Germans who must suffer Latvian immigrants? :confused:

Doesn't seem fair......

[Äike]

But what about the poor Germans who must suffer Latvian immigrants? :confused:

Doesn't seem fair......

Germans should be happy if they get tall blonde immigrants from Northern Europe :p and she has German ancestry.

[RoyBatty]

Germans should be happy if they get tall blonde immigrants from Northern Europe :p and she has German ancestry.

Blonde and tall she may be but those can also be found in parts of Africa, Australasia and South America. That doesn't make them German. Some Ghanain's and Turks also have German ancestry. That also doesn't make them ethnic or cultural Germans.

If she wants to preach Latvian apartheid and stick to her principles then she needs to decide whether she's German or Latvian. She can't be both.

Latvians are not equal to Germans and Germans are not equal to Latvians.

[spearofperun]

Blonde and tall she may be but those can also be found in parts of Africa, Australasia and South America. That doesn't make them German. Some Ghanain's and Turks also have German ancestry. That also doesn't make them ethnic or cultural Germans.

If she wants to preach Latvian apartheid and stick to her principles then she needs to decide whether she's German or Latvian. She can't be both.

Latvians are not equal to Germans and Germans are not equal to Latvians.

nah mate shes a latvian nordicist:rolleyes: although how that works i dunno.

[RoyBatty]

nah mate shes a latvian nordicist:rolleyes: although how that works i dunno.

In that case she's a Latvian occupier of Germany which makes her orders to (non-Latvian) forum members not to occupy Latvia all the more ironic. :rolleyes2:

[Osweo]

What the **** is Roy doing talking like this in this thread?! :tsk: I went a bit off topic with my post, but at least it was in good humour, and has already taught me summat I hadn't known about Estonia and Latvian language. Inese has a German grandparent, she's entitled to her heritage, just as I am in Tipperary. :mad:

[Loki]

Inese is entitled to her views, and they are not that removed from reality. You go girl!!

[Megrez]

I really want to visit Latvia someday. Latvian people seem to have respect for their history.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fgzMPWLmgI

[Nodens]

Inese is entitled to her views, and they are not that removed from reality. You go girl!!

I would think her views would be better received if they were not accompanied by a rather off-putting level of vulgarity.

[poiuytrewq0987]

I think it's pretty funny that we've got an Estonian telling us that Latvia is not Nordic but Estonia is and vice versa.

[Pallantides]

Inese is entitled to her views, and they are not that removed from reality. You go girl!!

Her whole view is based on illusions and fantasy.

[Absinthe]

Her whole view is based on illusions and fantasy.
Now, that's so uncommon around our parts :laugh:

[Jarl]

What the **** is Roy doing talking like this in this thread?! :tsk: I went a bit off topic with my post, but at least it was in good humour, and has already taught me summat I hadn't known about Estonia and Latvian language. Inese has a German grandparent, she's entitled to her heritage, just as I am in Tipperary. :mad:

BUt where is then the point of the cut-off, Sir? Does 1/4 of foreign ancestry entitle me to take it up wholly (even when my native, first tongue is that of the remaining 3/4)? How about 1/8 or 1/32? Perhaps even I could "become" a German under such circumstances... :rolleyes:


Besides, we are facing the problem of diluting, weakening or even germanising the remaining 3/4. A prospect which is not overly merry, particularly that Germany is richer and stronger than Latvia, and has, arguably, less problems with its population. If a 1/4 X person chose to convert entirely to his X ancestry, then in this very case this looks like sacrificing your poor 3/4 Latvian, for the rich prosperous 1/4 German... Definitely it's more justified than, say me converting and anglicising my (future) family, yet it still is a bit of a pretence. And most often the motivation in most such cases seems peculiarly the same... economical that is ;)

[lei.talk]

Originally Posted by Loki http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/kiddo/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=226415#post226415)
Inese (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/member.php?u=74) is entitled to her views, and they are not that removed from reality. You go girl!!

Originally Posted by Pallantides http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/kiddo/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=226436#post226436) Her whole view is based on illusions and fantasy.
that would seem to be a characterisation
painted with dismissively broad strokes.

generally, a person's weltanschauung is an attempt
to integrate an unconsciously developed ontology from childhood
with directly experienced observations in a later (more conscious) period
blended in with learned facts (during a self-aware term).


could you present some concrete examples
of her "whole view"
and the "illusions and fantasy" on which it is based?

even autistics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism_spectrum) and various (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizotypal_personality_disorder) schizo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid_personality_disorder)- types (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia)
are not so completely out of touch with reality
as she is portraited.

perhaps, if her critics had possessed the civility
to respond with ostensive facts - in stead of trollery and mocks...

[Äike]

I think it's pretty funny that we've got an Estonian telling us that Latvia is not Nordic but Estonia is and vice versa.

Go to Latvia and ask a Latvian if they think of themselves as Nordic people culturally related to Finns, Swedes and Danes. They'll laugh at you. They consider themselves to be Balts, that's as much as I know. Together with Lithuanians they think of us as not Balts, but Nordic people, who are more similar to Finns and Swedes than to Balts.

Hippo style: I think it's pretty funny that we've got a Yugoslav telling us anything about countries which he doesn't have a clue about. ;)

[Pallantides]

that would seem to be a characterisation
painted with dismissively broad strokes.

generally, a person's weltanschauung is an attempt
to integrate an unconsciously developed ontology from childhood
with directly experienced observations in a later (more conscious) period
blended in with learned facts (during a self-aware term).


could you present some concrete examples
of her "whole view"
and the "illusions and fantasy" on which it is based?

even autistics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism_spectrum) and various (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizotypal_personality_disorder) schizo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid_personality_disorder)- types (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia)
are not so completely out of touch with reality
as she is portraited.

perhaps, if her critics had possessed the civility
to respond with ostensive facts - in stead of trollery and mocks...

Take a look through this thread.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=225729&postcount=35
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=225773&postcount=38



Balts are not Nordic people like Norwegians, Icelandics, Swedes and Danes, having specific phenotype like 'Nordid' don't make a person 'racially' Nordic.

A short, swarthy and dark eyed brachycephal from Western Norway is more Nordic than a tall, fair and light eyed dolichocephal Polak.

[Svanhild]

Blonde and tall she may be but those can also be found in parts of Africa, Australasia and South America. That doesn't make them German. Some Ghanain's and Turks also have German ancestry. That also doesn't make them ethnic or cultural Germans.
I'm afraid that I've to intervene here. We Germans have not even the slightest problems with visitors or immigrants from Scandinavian or Baltic countries. Swedes, Danes, Norwegians, Finns, Latvians or Estonians: It doesn't matter. They're culturally and ethnically similar and don't pose a threat. Their mindset and character is near to ours.

Immigrants from the southernmost corner of Europe or from Non-European territories are the problem. I'd replace 10 Turks with 100 or even 1000 Swedes or Estonians any time.

And pardon my french, but I don't think Inese feels and thinks she's German. This very thread shows that she feels Latvian. Why else should she start a thread about her country and its versatility? Truth be told, her love for her nation is rather exemplary. As Loki said: You go girl! :)

[Falkata]

I'm afraid that I've to intervene here. We Germans have not even the slightest problems with visitors or immigrants from Scandinavian or Baltic countries. Swedes, Danes, Norwegians, Finns, Latvians or Estonians: It doesn't matter. They're culturally and ethnically similar and don't pose a threat. Their mindset and character is near to ours.

Immigrants from the southernmost corner of Europe or from Non-European territories are the problem. I'd replace 10 Turks with 100 or even 1000 Swedes or Estonians any time.

And pardon my french, but I don't think Inese feels and thinks she's German. This very thread shows that she feels Latvian. Why else should she start a thread about her country and its versatility? Truth be told, her love for her nation is rather exemplary. As Loki said: You go girl! :)

That´s your personal opinion. I´ve some german friends (one of my best friend´s gf is german) and they dont feel any kind of kindship with the immigrants from East Europe. Actually they use to make jokes about polish people, apparently they have a reputation of car thieves. Russians aren´t very well considered neither, so i dont think lituanians, latvians or ukranians have a special status in Germany neither. I dont think they prefer them over a italian for example.
Obviously turks are a different question

[Falkata]

Germans should be happy if they get tall blonde immigrants from Northern Europe :p and she has German ancestry.

The russians who destroyed their country just a few decades ago were as blond as the germans. I dont think the germans were very happy being raped and killed in Berlin by the red hordes

[Äike]

That´s your personal opinion. I´ve some german friends (one of my best friend´s gf is german) and they dont feel any kind of kindship with the immigrants from East Europe. Actually they use to make jokes about polish people, apparently they have a reputation of car thieves. Russians aren´t very well considered neither, so i dont think lituanians, latvians or ukranians have a special status in Germany neither. I dont think they prefer them over a italian for example.
Obviously turks are a different question


The russians who destroyed their country just a few decades ago were as blond as the germans. I dont think the germans were very happy being raped and killed in Berlin by the red hordes

Svanhild was talking about Northern European immigrants, not Eastern European immigrants.

[Falkata]

Svanhild was talking about Northern European immigrants, not Eastern European immigrants.

Scandinavian immigrants are almost unexistant. They are tourists at most

[Äike]

Scandinavian immigrants are almost unexistant. They are tourists at most

In Germany, Danes are a nationale Minderheiten.

[Pallantides]

Latvians are seen as Eastern Europeans in Scandinavia, they are definitely not viewed as 'Nordic' brothers or sisters by the majority of the population.

[Äike]

Latvians are seen as Eastern Europeans in Scandinavia, they are definitely not viewed as 'Nordic' brothers or sisters by the majority of the population.

Exactly, even Latvians themselves don't think of themselves as Nordic people, they think of themselves as Balts and kin of Lithuanians. Even Estonians aren't viewed as "Nordic" brothers, because 50 years of Communism "radically changed" our meta-ethnicity. Although a large number of our Nordic kin(Swedes, Finns and Danes) fought in our Independence war as volunteers in 1918-1920.

[Inese]

Why do you want to ruin my thread about Latvia?? :mad: I am Latvian and i feel Latvian and i total love my country! You know, i cant help that me and my family cant life in Latvia right now but i have the plan to move home later in a better situation! What do you know about me?? Not 1/100 of our situation!
But what about the poor Germans who must suffer Latvian immigrants? :confused:

Blub blub!:rolleyes: I tell you we are living in Germany for some years and i have not heard a single German who thinks that we are not welcome or typical bad stranger! We have German family of my German grandfather near us and we are super integrated , speak the language and we work! No crime, no abuse of social system and no paralel society. People think i am German and they only notize that i am from Latvia trough my Blatic accent when i speak German.

Blonde and tall she may be but those can also be found in parts of Africa, Australasia and South America. That doesn't make them German. Some Ghanain's and Turks also have German ancestry. That also doesn't make them ethnic or cultural Germans.
Ok listen ---- do you want to make my angry!?? Do you want to say we are like Africans or jungle people? I am not saying i am ethnic or cultural German! I am Latvian with a German grandfather and that makes me to a quarter German. And i like the country very much! Germans are good friends and i absolutly like the culture, history and mentality okay?? But i never say i am German

In that case she's a Latvian occupier of Germany which makes her orders to (non-Latvian) forum members not to occupy Latvia all the more ironic. :rolleyes2:
loool occupier of Germany! Hello?? :033102st: I can think about my country when i not live in it in the moment! Or cant you think about England if you are in a other country?


Besides, we are facing the problem of diluting, weakening or even germanising the remaining 3/4. A prospect which is not overly merry, particularly that Germany is richer and stronger than Latvia, and has, arguably, less problems with its population. If a 1/4 X person chose to convert entirely to his X ancestry, then in this very case this looks like sacrificing your poor 3/4 Latvian, for the rich prosperous 1/4 German... Definitely it's more justified than, say me converting and anglicising my (future) family, yet it still is a bit of a pretence. And most often the motivation in most such cases seems peculiarly the same... economical that is ;)
Mister Poland living in England should speak a little less and think a little more! :aufsmaul_2: Again i say that i dont weakening my Latvian body and soul. I was already writing that i want to go back to Latvia later, to my home Kuldiga in Kurzeme , when i am in a better situation. You will show me where i pretend to be German, will you?? Show me! And a other thing ---- you are the good Pole or what? Living in England and talk shit. You dont live in a glas house you are in a glas palace and throw rocks of the size of a mountain around! Rumps and boom!! Buried by tons of glas!

[Jarl]

Mister Poland living in England should speak a little less and think a little more! :aufsmaul_2: Again i say that i dont weakening my Latvian body and soul. I was already writing that i want to go back to Latvia later, to my home Kuldiga in Kurzeme , when i am in a better situation. You will show me where i pretend to be German, will you?? Show me! And a other thing ---- you are the good Pole or what? Living in England and talk shit. You dont live in a glas house you are in a glas palace and throw rocks of the size of a mountain around! Rumps and boom!! Buried by tons of glas!

Relax. I am glad you are lookin after your heritage ;) I only talked with Oswiu on a hypothetical issue of how much of foreign ancestry entitles you to full conversion. This was not quite about you since I got no clue about your plans for future. Rumps and boom! Howgh!

[Inese]

Relax. I am glad you are lookin after your heritage ;) I only talked with Oswiu on a hypothetical issue of how much of foreign ancestry entitles you to full conversion. This was not quite about you since I got no clue about your plans for future. Rumps and boom! Howgh!
Yes ok i dont want a fight! But i am not German and never said i am German. I feel very very strong sympathy , friendship and connection for and to Germany and i have no problem with my German grandfather but i think and feel Latvian!
Hmm my plans for the future!!? I dont know if i have any, so many problems around me and i have fear that my dreams vanish like bubbles. But i do my best and that is all i can do!

[lei.talk]

which ever moderator or forum-leader
is responsible for this section
should take a few minutes and move all the off-topic
in to a generic "Shamelessly Unending Harassment of Inese" thread. :tsk:

Hussar http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/kiddo/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=232970#post232970) It will happen in any thread opened by Inese. It's normal :cool:
all of such off-topic ad hominems (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem#Ad_hominem_abusive) from through-out the forum
belong in Shamelessly Unending Harassment of Inese.

perhaps, when confronted with the sheer quantity
and low quality of their jibes - the blackguards might reconsider
whether their umbrage at the indelicate expressions
of a girl's attempts to articulate her thoughts
in her third or fourth language
were justified.


certainly,
potential members should not be exposed to such.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/image.php?groupid=60&dateline=1256171593 (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/group.php?groupid=60)
*

[The Lawspeaker]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_knF7n-Xefgo/TGbZUZUaVsI/AAAAAAAADkU/Xx2v3XxleyU/s1600/Latvia+in+July+110.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_knF7n-Xefgo/TGbgbi46WJI/AAAAAAAADl8/SgXsNcQ47NA/s1600/Latvia+in+July+041.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_knF7n-Xefgo/TGba3GWLQxI/AAAAAAAADks/871lJnz10VM/s1600/Latvia+in+July+028.jpg
(It's a local custom that when a couple gets married they hang a lock on this bridge in the city park)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/RigaMentzendorffhouse.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Riga_city_council.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/Roland_Riga.jpg

[Groenewolf]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_knF7n-Xefgo/TGba3GWLQxI/AAAAAAAADks/871lJnz10VM/s1600/Latvia+in+July+028.jpg
(It's a local custom that when a couple gets married they hang a lock on this bridge in the city park)

Pretty symbolic:coffee: .

[The Lawspeaker]

Pretty symbolic:coffee: .
Here they might just as well hang an open lock on a bridge as 1 out 3 marriages here fails. :coffee:

[Tyrrhenoi]

http://allaboutlatvia.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/cccp.jpg

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/4209/dsc2132copy.jpg

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/7606/valnuielaziemassvetkos.jpg

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/5927/dsc8682mazais.jpg

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/9213/brivibasielaziema2.jpg

Seems to be a nice country - I wish that the inhabitants could appreciate southern-europeans some more!

[Eldritch]

Pretty symbolic:coffee: .

I've been to that park. I believe they toss the key into the pond below the bridge.

[Groenewolf]

I've been to that park. I believe they toss the key into the pond below the bridge.

What is the name of the park and bridge and might you know when this custom emerged?

[Eldritch]

It's in the Bastejkalns park (I believe in English the place is called Bastion Hill).

Look for on Google maps. And unfortunaly I don't know when and how this tradition started. We'll have to wait for Inese to come back and tell us.

[RoyBatty]

I've been to that park. I believe they toss the key into the pond below the bridge.

In Moscow at Luzhkov Bridge (not sure if it was named after the corrupt mayor, hopefully not.... ) they also have iron "trees" with locks attached to them by newlywed couples. As you mention, the keys get tossed into the river.

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/7070/dsc1480.jpg

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/9844/dsc1528.jpg

[Osweo]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_knF7n-Xefgo/TGba3GWLQxI/AAAAAAAADks/871lJnz10VM/s1600/Latvia+in+July+028.jpg
(It's a local custom that when a couple gets married they hang a lock on this bridge in the city park)


Pretty symbolic:coffee: .
I'll say...

But SHIT, Roy beat me to it;

In Moscow at Luzhkov Bridge (not sure if it was named after the corrupt mayor, hopefully not.... )
hehe, what do YOU think? :p
Пешеходный мост через Водоотводный канал в непосредственной близости от Болотной площади.Украшен скульптурами Зураба Церетели, часть из которых выполнены на исторические темы, а другая - представляет собой "деревья любви" - металические конструкции, приспособленные специально для того, чтобы влюбленные пары вешали на них "замки счастья".
Официально считается, что мост назван по в честь Царициного луга, так называлась место, на котором сейчас расположена Болотная площадь. Но среди населения Москвы бытует мнение, что мост был назван в честь мэра города Юрия Лужкова.
Luzhkov's surname refers to a 'pool' or 'puddle' or small shallow body of water, which just happens :rolleyes: to be part of the old name of this area... The connection with Yuri's mate Tsereteli is the clincher, of course. :p

ANYWAY: is it Latvians who do the padlock thing, or is it Russians in Riga?

Or is the 'tradition' equally novel in both places? I don't think it has much antecedent in Moscow, actually. A post-Perestroika thing, if I'm not mistaken.

[RoyBatty]

According to my contacts in Piter Mayor Luzhkov's real surname is "Katz". :D


http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/10798/anti-semitic-fliers-target-pro-jewish-moscow-mayor/

[Äike]

The tradition of putting locks onto bridges is a Russian thing, at least in Estonia, but some Estonians have also adopted this tradition.

[Matuo]

The tradition of putting locks onto bridges is a Russian thing, at least in Estonia, but some Estonians have also adopted this tradition.
In Latvia too it is mainly Russian thing. But, of course, some Latvians have adopted this tradition too.

As far as I have been in Latvian weddings, I didn't notice somebody putting locks on bridges.

[The Lawspeaker]

Jūrmala

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/0/0f/20060325180951!Jurmala_juli_2005.jpg

http://www.reisiekspert.ee/UploadedFiles/sihtkohad/lati-jurmala-jurmala-rand-1.jpg

http://i.bestriga.com/uploads/photo/large/2008/12/09/pedestrian_jomas_street%20(13).jpg

http://i.bestriga.com/uploads/photo/large/2008/12/09/arhitektura15.jpg


Kuldīga

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Alekšupīte_(2).jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Kuldiga_7.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Kuldiga_1.jpg


The town is home to the widest waterfall in Europe along the river Venta:

http://www.visit.kuldiga.lv/faili/Image/sadalas/zivis_lec2_new.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/Kuldyga._ventos_krioklys%2C_2006-09-22.jpg


The river Venta:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/Venta_ties_Paulianka_resize.jpg

The White Wagtail (Motacilla alba) is Latvia's national bird and is known in Latvian as Baltā cielava.


Liepāja

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/Liepaja_centr.JPG

[The Lawspeaker]

And back in Rīga:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Bandera_Łotwy.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Centrum_Rigy.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Ryga1.2007-08-09.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Streets_of_Riga.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/Vecpilsētas_iela_12.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Riga_Old_Town_part2.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Riga_old_town_25_02_06.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Riga_domen_gateparti.JPG

But there is also another Rīga - the gap between the rich and the poor is shockingly wide.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/Riga%2C_starší_žena_a_holuby_(2).jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/Raduga_bol.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/lv/e/e1/Plavnieku_mikrorajons.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Bezdomovec_v_Rize.jpg

[poiuytrewq0987]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Bezdomovec_v_Rize.jpg

I can't wait until I live like this man, worry-free!

[Korbis]

I think I will include this country in my future ex- soviet Union Tour. It would be a good substitute even I couldnt visit Russia.

[esaima]

Jūrmala is a nice place, indeed.Even nicer than pics can show.We have visited it nearly every summer, not so far from here.
http://www.concordia.lv/img/jurmala_beach3.jpg

http://www.randburg.com/lv/gif/jurmala02.jpg

http://main.visapasaule.lv/gallery/jurmala/img1.jpg

http://www.viss.lv/dati/alba/jomas_iela.jpg

http://www.jusmala.lv/uploads/images/foto2.jpg

http://www.venere.com/img/hotel/0/3/7/4/284730/image_hotel_exterior_outside_1.jpg

[Äike]

I just found this patriotic picture:

http://f.postimees.ee/f/2007/09/10/3603t41h379d.jpg

[Loki]

I just found this patriotic picture:

http://f.postimees.ee/f/2007/09/10/3603t41h379d.jpg

The one on the right could pass as Estonian - East Baltid characteristics.

[Äike]

The one on the right could pass as Estonian - East Baltid characteristics.

Could she pass as an Estonian? Probably yes. Is she East-Baltid? Decide for yourself (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/tipumagyar.jpg).

Has Loki visited the SNPA? Probably not. ;)

[Loki]

Has Loki visited the SNPA? Probably not. ;)

The Baltic Finns: Livs and Esths (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-IX10.htm)



Two series of crania about 300 years old, from Esthonia and Livonia, show that the modern head form of the Livs and Esths dates back at least to that time. At the same time these skulls show that the immediate ancestors of these Baltic Finns were broad-faced, not infrequently wide-nosed, and often low-orbitted. They serve further to define the East Baltic racial type in this region.

[Äike]

The Baltic Finns: Livs and Esths (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-IX10.htm)

East-Baltic and East-Baltid aren't synonyms, that's what 1 Finnish member has claimed.

Anyway, I'm directing you to this thread:

Anthropology of the Estonians (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=160906&postcount=1)

[EWtt]

The one on the right could pass as Estonian - East Baltid characteristics.

I had a similar feeling, but she's the most Nordoid-looking of the group as far as I can tell... The other two are much more Baltid-looking.

[Äike]

I had a similar feeling, but she's the most Nordoid-looking of the group as far as I can tell...

Exactly, out of the 3 girls, she looks the most Estonian.

[Loki]

Exactly, out of the 3 girls, she looks the most Estonian.

Which is what I was trying to say.

[Äike]

Which is what I was trying to say.

You also said something else, which was false.

[Loki]

You also said something else, which was false.

No it's not false. And I gave you a link, which you tried to dismiss by claiming there is a fundamental difference in meaning in the usage of "c" and "d" in the word Baltic/d. I disagree with that conclusion.

[Äike]

No it's not false. And I gave you a link, which you tried to dismiss by claiming there is a fundamental difference in meaning in the usage of "c" and "d" in the word Baltic/d. I disagree with that conclusion.

Ok, we have agreed. She's East-Baltid. I do not like to argue with moderators and admins.

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/tipumagyar.jpg

[Loki]

Ok, we have agreed. She's East-Baltid. I do not like to argue with moderators and admins.


We're not arguing, we're debating. :)

[Äike]

We're not arguing, we're debating. :)

The word "debating" is just a synonym of "arguing".

The debate is over anyway, we have agreed that the most Nordoid-looking girl from the picture is East-Baltid. There's no reason to continue this debate.

[Loki]

The word "debating" is just a synonym of "arguing".

Not in the English language, no. There's a subtle difference in meaning.

[Äike]

Not in the English language, no. There's a subtle difference in meaning.

Actually when you type "arguing synonyms" into Google. You find this page (http://www.synonyms.net/synonym/arguing) as the 1st result. Then the first synonym you see is the word "debate".

There may be a subtle difference, but they're synonyms. "Debate" is just a nicer word for "Argument". ;)

[Loki]

"Debate" is just a nicer word for "Argument". ;)

Maybe in Estonia. Anglophones know the difference.

[Äike]

Maybe in Estonia. Anglophones know the difference.

Those 2 words are synonyms.

Definition of synonym:

syn·o·nym (sn-nm)
n.
1. A word having the same or nearly the same meaning as another word or other words in a language.
2. A word or an expression that serves as a figurative or symbolic substitute for another.
3. Biology A scientific name of an organism or of a taxonomic group that has been superseded by another name at the same rank.

[Pallantides]

The one on the right could pass as Estonian - East Baltid characteristics.

She could pass as a Scandinavian also.

[Äike]

She could pass as a Scandinavian also.

Do you also agree with me and Loki that she's East-Baltid?

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/tipumagyar.jpg



In my opinion, the Latvian individual is almost textbook East-Baltid, maybe her picture should be added to the East-Baltid section of SNPA?

[Loki]

Those 2 words are synonyms.

Definition of synonym:

syn·o·nym (sn-nm)
n.
1. A word having the same or nearly the same meaning as another word or other words in a language.
2. A word or an expression that serves as a figurative or symbolic substitute for another.
3. Biology A scientific name of an organism or of a taxonomic group that has been superseded by another name at the same rank.

That underlines what I told you: "subtle differences" = "nearly the same".

[Äike]

That underlines what I told you: "subtle differences" = "nearly the same".

There are subtle differences between those 2 words in both English and Estonian. That doesn't change the fact that they're synonyms in both languages.

By debate I see something done by the leaders of 2 main parties, before the parliamentary elections, on live TV. But an argument is done daily, everywhere. Still, you could say that the 2 party leaders are arguing. Because debating and arguing are synonyms.

[esaima]

The one on the right could pass as Estonian

Could pass as Estonian? I think (nearly) all Latvians could pass as Estonian without problems and vice versa.
Maybe it is more correct to say "she is the most Estonian-like"?

EDIT:

Maybe it is more correct to say "she is the most Estonian-like"?
Or even: "her phenotype is less widespread in Latvia than in Estonia "?:)

[Loki]

Could pass as Estonian? I think (nearly) all Latvians could pass as Estonian without problems and vice versa.
Maybe it is more correct to say "she is the most Estonian-like"?

Yes, I pretty much agree with that.

[Eldritch]

I always understood that an "argument" involves some kind of negative emotions or opinions that the participants have towards one another, whereas in a "debate" the conflict is not between the individuals themselves, but rather simply between the viewpoints they represent.

Is this anywhere near the mark, arvoisat anglofoonit? :shrug:

[Loki]

I always understood that an "argument" involves some kind of negative emotions or opinions that the participants have towards one another, whereas in a "debate" the conflict is not between the individuals themselves, but rather simply between the viewpoints they represent.

Is this anywhere near the mark, arvoisat anglofoonit? :shrug:

That is the most accepted general usage of the term today, yes. "Argument" hints at some aggressive verbal fighting, whereas "debate" is a milder term which is used to refer to civilized interchanging of ideas.

[Äike]

Could pass as Estonian? I think (nearly) all Latvians could pass as Estonian without problems and vice versa.

Estonians and Livonians can pass as Estonians, I agree. Latvians may be linguistically and culturally different from us, but when we go way back in history, most of them spoke Finnic languages. They are genetically very similar to us and even look very Northern-European, because of their Finnic heritage.

Although the Latvian stereotypes about Estonians being very blonde, makes sense. As Latvians have more Indo-European heritage than Estonians, thus they're slightly darker.


Maybe it is more correct to say "she is the most Estonian-like"?

Yes, she is the most Estonian like.

[esaima]

They are genetically very similar to us and even look very Northern-European, because of their Finnic heritage.
Mh, maybe we have some Baltic heritage?Only a fool or the one who has never seen any Estonian and Latvian can claim differently.Maybe we are simply Finnic speaking Balts?:rolleyes:

Although the Latvian stereotypes about Estonians being very blonde, makes sense. As Latvians have more Indo-European heritage than Estonians, thus they're slightly darker.
LOL.The local UP-survivors were very blond but the Finno-Ugrians from Urals weren´t the blondest people of the world. No, I don´t think that they were dark Eskimos but I think blondness is a localt trait of Baltic sea area and has no (direct) connections with Finnic/Finno-Ugric languages.
They UP survivors probably didn´t spoke Finnic.They spoke a language which was non-Uralic, non-Indo-European.
We, Estonians, are simply a mix(of different components)-like most of Europeans.

[Äike]

Mh, maybe we have some Baltic heritage?Only a fool or the one who has never seen any Estonian and Latvian can claim differently.Maybe we are simply Finnic speaking Balts?:rolleyes:

Maybe you are a troll?


LOL.The local UP-survivors were very blond but the Finno-Ugrians from Urals weren´t the blondest people of the world. No, I don´t think that they were dark Eskimos but I think blondness is a localt trait of Baltic sea area and has no (direct) connections with Finnic/Finno-Ugric languages.
They UP survivors probably didn´t spoke Finnic.They spoke a language which was non-Uralic, non-Indo-European.
We, Estonians, are simply a mix(of different components)-like most of Europeans.

Both the blondest people in the world and the most redheaded people in the world, are Finno-Ugrics. It's not hard to draw parallels. ;)

[esaima]

[QUOTE]Both the blondest people in the world and the most redheaded people in the world, are Finno-Ugrics. It's not hard to draw parallels. ;)
Kalevi Wiik?
Some say that all Finnic people have some slight Mongoloid component!;)It is not hard to notice it.I can admit it, this fact doesn´t reduce my feeling towards my ancestors.It is not a cold adaption as you always say, I rather think it is simply Easterness.Maybe Estonians are the most western among Finno-Ugrians, but even in Estonia, wel there are East-Baltids.

[esaima]

And now, Estonians, let´s try to stop adulterating this thread.This thread is about Latvia.I like Latvians because they are similar to my countrymen.

[Eldritch]

And now, Estonians, let´s try to stop adulterating this thread.This thread is about Latvia.I like Latvians because they are similar to my countrymen.

That's right, let's get back on track. I don't think a split is necessary, but yeah, the topic is Latvia.

_sH2XN7JiHo

7DKyB6GSTtM

[esaima]

In fact nearly whole Latvian coast is a 500 km long sandy beach.

http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/5e/f1/94/latvian-beach.jpg

http://www.fotothing.com/photos/c1a/c1aa2db06fd5f7fb70e6a76ca9949f3d.jpg

[Äike]

Kalevi Wiik?
Some say that all Finnic people have some slight Mongoloid component!;)It is not hard to notice it.I can admit it, this fact doesn´t reduce my feeling towards my ancestors.It is not a cold adaption as you always say, I rather think it is simply Easterness.Maybe Estonians are the most western among Finno-Ugrians, but even in Estonia, wel there are East-Baltids.

Finno-Ugrians living near the Urals have a Mongoloid component, because they live next to Turkics/Siberians/Tatars etc.


And now, Estonians, let´s try to stop adulterating this thread.This thread is about Latvia. I like Latvians because they are similar to my countrymen.

If you wouldn't troll me in every possible thread, then there would be less off-topic threads. I do not know what sick pleasure you get out of this.

[The Lawspeaker]

http://www.latvia-florida.org/images/latviapiclakehouses.jpg
Houses in the Latvian countryside.


http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1020/985049939_018f9c18cb_z.jpg?zz=1
Around Vidzeme.

http://www.magelantravel.lv/eng/visi_weekend/madride/tours_around_latvia/images/text/vidzeme.jpg
Also around Vidzeme.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/ba/NAF_2nd_Infantry_Battalion_02.JPG
Some of the gentlemen of the Latvian Land Forces (Sauszemes Spēki)

[Matuo]

[CENTER]http://www.latvia-florida.org/images/latviapiclakehouses.jpg
Houses in the Latvian countryside.
Well, those definately aren't in countryside. They are in Riga's suburban region (the ones in picture very likely are from Baltezers), and have appeared in last 15 years. And owners of those houses are wealthy people.

Here are more typical and traditional houses from Latvian countryside:


http://www.viss.lv/dati/jurguci/maaja_7234.jpg
http://pukkalnini.celotajs.lv/resources/gallery/public/site/pukkalnini/accomm/main.thumbinail-400
http://www.tourism.cesis.lv/bild/l428.jpg
http://www.kempeni.lv/albums/images/01_1_L.jpg
http://www.saimnieks.lv/admin/editor/uploads/images/klavis-DSCF1338.JPG
http://images01.olx.lv/ui/6/82/97/1274183926_94077597_1-Lauku-maja-Vecpils-pagasts-1274183926.jpg
http://www.aloja.lv/reportazas/0909/090915_ritenbrauciens_uz_cilpam_142.jpg
http://www.wolmaria.lv/upload/market/12468679538761.jpg
http://www.atputasbazes.lv/inc/objectdetailsimage.php?foto=6697_pildavas004_lv.jp g

[Peerkons]

Bāāc, kā man patīk tie zvejnieku ciemati aiz Liepājas. Vienkārši unikāli un skaisti.
Tikai tie suņabērni leiši daudz zemi nopirkuši tajā pusē.

[rhiannon]

Hello there!

Loki opened this forum on my request so I think it is my duty to make the first posting! :cool: I try to give you a fitting impression of my former home country and to show some interesting pictures. I am also of 1/4 German ancestry because of my grandfather, so I will say some words to the history of the shown pictures.


This is Latvia in Northeastern Europe:

http://static.lonelyplanet.com/worldguide/maps/wg-latvia-2039-400x300.gif


And I come from the western part of Latvia, the name of the region is "Kurzeme". "Kurzeme" is the latvian word for "Kurland" and "Kurland" is the historical name of this region given by the order who settled there in medivial ages.

http://www.ownersdirect.co.uk/photos/rl386.jpg


Kurzeme is known for the wonderful countryside and nice, historical villages and cities. Many of these cities have also German names because they were founded by the Teutonic orders or were extremely influenced by them. And Kurzeme was for a long time a part of the Hanse. (It´s like that again after the fall of the Sovjetunion when we regained freedom.)

This picture shows the situation in Latvia during the time of the Teutonic Knights:

http://www.imperialteutonicorder.com/db3/00209/imperialteutonicorder.com/_uimages/Teutonic_state_1455.png


There you can see also some of the old German names for the cities in Latvia.

Daugvapils - German: Dünaburg
Liepāja - German: Libau
Ventspils - German: Windau
Jelgava - German: Mitau
Kuldiga - German: Goldingen
Rēzekne - German: Rositten
Jēkabpils - German: Jakobstadt

Now I will post some pictures of my region, Kurzeme, to show you the beauty of the country and it´s towns and villages!


http://www.budgettravel.lv/eng/px/sight/latvia/talsi_kurzeme.jpg

A typical village in Kurzeme. Talsi.


http://www.dabasretumi.lv/Atteli/Pieminekli/Ukr/Ventas_Rumba%5B1%5D.jpg
http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/DANPOD/EU39_JMI0007_M~Sunrise-in-the-morning-mist-over-the-waterfall-on-the-Venta-River-near-Kuldiga-Latvia-Posters.jpg

The broadest waterfall in Europe! "Venta Rumba". The waterfall of the Venta River near Kuldiga.

http://cache.virtualtourist.com/2893025-Travel_Picture-Kuldiga.jpg

The famous bridge of Kuldiga. There are often international film crews! For the remake of the German movie "Die Brücke" least year for example.


Our beautiful baltic coast! The water is very clear there.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2124/2137968387_dbbf8c00b7.jpg?v=0


But don´t forget the thousands of smaller and larger lakes in our country!

http://www.ramsar.org/pictures/latvia-3new08.jpg


The preservation of old traditions and customs if very important in Latvia, for young and old people.

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/3729/agirlinlatviannationalcyf4.jpg
http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/7089/latvianceremonywreath32de5.jpg


Just visit my home country, you will never regret it! :wink

Holy crap. Inese, I just found this post on a random search for Baltids on Google.
Had NO idea you were the first member of TA! Very cool!

[Citizen]

Common people shopping in the Riga Central Market. Reminds me that I also have to buy some čerešņas there.
http://www.tvnet.lv/zala_zeme/galleries/zala_dzive/15227-fotoreportaza_vasaras_labumi_rigas_centraltirgu/?pic=1

[Geminus]

Very nice country!
I wonder how much German influence is still visible in language, customs or names. Also I'm interested how the Hansa and the Teutonic Knights are seen in the Baltic countries. Especially compared to the Russian rulers.

[Citizen]

Very nice country!
I wonder how much German influence is still visible in language, customs or names. Also I'm interested how the Hansa and the Teutonic Knights are seen in the Baltic countries. Especially compared to the Russian rulers.

People have no real stance on those times and on Imperial Russia period as well, the soviet legacy is what is dividing topic in society. But I wouldn't really call it Russian period.

Well I hope Inese is fine.

[Pure ja]

It looks like a country without extremes (in mountains or low points). Just endless forests, a couple of cities, some towns, villages and rivers and some pastures- a very calming landscape.
I have heard that the Baltic has some unknown gems like spa's and beach resorts hardly known in Western Europe..


I am going to add one picture that I stumbled upon while browsing Wikipedia for pictures (and ending up on a Latvian article)- the River Salaca in Northern Latvia.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/lv/a/a9/Salaca.JPG

Salatsi river is truly a hidden gem, since in estonian / livonian language it means 'hidden / by sneaking'.
The modern estonian state language equivalent word would be 'salamisi', 'salatsi' would be a dialect word.

[Mans not hot]

I'm glag Inese is gone.

edit: i was informed she is the famous forumite who comitted suicide. oh well.
What kind of post is this? Not nice. :picard1:

[Pure ja]

Yes true but we have mini ski resorts too! :D Small hills but there are lifts and prepared slopes! Never say to Latvian people that they cant ski!

Yes, I agree! Only estonians can say that latvians can't ski :p
Where is the latvian town equivalent to Otepää, with 3 individual olympic gold medals and a silver in cross-country skiing?
Or the latvian equivalent of Kaija Parve?
Or the Latvian equivalent of the highest mountain in the Baltics - Suur Munamägi (the Great Eggmountain, the one spoken in the creation myth of Kalevala runo).

Just kidding and teasing :)
Latvia is fine.

[Pure ja]

We Tyrolese call these skiing resorts a "baby hill". But all the more treacherous they are, as people who like I have been skiing since they were 1 1/2 years of age or so are easily tempted to just go for the direct way down, which makes you all the more prone to falling, I once had a terrible skiing crash at approx. 80-90 km/h (luckily escaped unhurt) because my ski simply came off after it bumped into the other. Damn snowboard trails making the resort unrideable at 3.45 PM... :rolleyes2:


That is called downhill skiing. You should try cross-country skiing on flat land or on a frozen lake or on sea ice, less prone to fall.

[Mans not hot]

Pure ja, you realised that you're talking to dead girl?

[Pure ja]

I'll say...

But SHIT, Roy beat me to it;

hehe, what do YOU think? :p
Пешеходный мост через Водоотводный канал в непосредственной близости от Болотной площади.Украшен скульптурами Зураба Церетели, часть из которых выполнены на исторические темы, а другая - представляет собой "деревья любви" - металические конструкции, приспособленные специально для того, чтобы влюбленные пары вешали на них "замки счастья".
Официально считается, что мост назван по в честь Царициного луга, так называлась место, на котором сейчас расположена Болотная площадь. Но среди населения Москвы бытует мнение, что мост был назван в честь мэра города Юрия Лужкова.
Luzhkov's surname refers to a 'pool' or 'puddle' or small shallow body of water, which just happens :rolleyes: to be part of the old name of this area... The connection with Yuri's mate Tsereteli is the clincher, of course. :p

ANYWAY: is it Latvians who do the padlock thing, or is it Russians in Riga?

Or is the 'tradition' equally novel in both places? I don't think it has much antecedent in Moscow, actually. A post-Perestroika thing, if I'm not mistaken.

Well, Moscow is an ancient finnic ground, volga-finnic to be exact.

[lI]

Or the Latvian equivalent of the highest mountain in the Baltics - Suur Munamägi (the Great Eggmountain, the one spoken in the creation myth of Kalevala runo).Yeah, there are no hills to match it in Latvia, Gaiziņkalns (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaizi%C5%86kalns) is even (!) 6 metres lower than Munamägi... :(



Well, Moscow is an ancient finnic ground, volga-finnic to be exact.
Which Finnic tribe would that be?

http://imageshack.us/a/img259/3557/retr.png

The city is on the very verge of the border between Balts and Finno-Ugrics (http://www.melc.lt/lietuva/tauta/zemelapiai.php?ZId=9&id=43) and it has no universally accepted etymology AFAIK.

[glass]

What kind of post is this? Not nice. :picard1:
kamane seems tough vindictive girl,
i regret my attempts to troll her...

[Pure ja]

Pure ja, you realised that you're talking to dead girl?

That was a rather changing turn of events for her.
But my excuse would be that talking to a dead person is not unheard of among baltic-finns. I am sure that it is also common among balts.

[Pure ja]

In fact nearly whole Latvian coast is a 500 km long sandy beach.


And that is why the inhabitants of that beach were called liivlased = sand people.

That is also the environment where the Swiderian culture lived:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiderian_culture

"The Swiderian is recognized as a distinctive culture that developed on the sand dunes left behind by the retreating glaciers."

[Harkonnen]

Yeah, there are no hills to match it in Latvia, Gaiziņkalns (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaizi%C5%86kalns) is even (!) 6 metres lower than Munamägi... :(



Which Finnic tribe would that be?

That would be the Meryans I believe.




The city is on the very verge of the border between Balts and Finno-Ugrics (http://www.melc.lt/lietuva/tauta/zemelapiai.php?ZId=9&id=43) and it has no universally accepted etymology AFAIK.

Well I've read that it possibly comes from some FU word meaning 'dark water' (moskva river), but maybe you have some better information about this.

[Pure ja]

Yeah, there are no hills to match it in Latvia, Gaiziņkalns (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaizi%C5%86kalns) is even (!) 6 metres lower than Munamägi... :(


I have heard rumours that latvians have been planning on shoveling our Suur Munamägi hill a little shorter, so that Latvia could claim the fame :D




Which Finnic tribe would that be?


I think murom. Or was it merja. The Novgorod region was Nereva, I think.




The city is on the very verge of the border between Balts and Finno-Ugrics (http://www.melc.lt/lietuva/tauta/zemelapiai.php?ZId=9&id=43) and it has no universally accepted etymology AFAIK.

That is simply because a finnic etymology is not easily accepted by indo-europeans :)
They will studiously omit any possibility of a finno-ugric origin, if at all possible :)

There is a similar toponym in Estonia - Mustvee (black/brackish/smelly + water). In estonian dialects 'muskuva', in finnish 'moskova'?

http://bridgetomoscow.com/curious-fact-the-meaning-of-the-name-moscow
------------
Just as like with the Klaipeda = Caloi+pede = Kaloi + pääde = Kaloi + pää(n)te = fish terminal point
Or with the Vistula Lagoon = Esten + mere = barrier / weir sea
Or possibly with the Apuole castle = Apu + ala = Abi + ala = a place for help

Btw, a further remark to connect swiderians, livonians and Lietuva: Leetuva in estonian language means "(a land) with a tendency to form sand dunes".

Leet+seljandik = sand dune
Literally: sand + back, or also flame + back, since 'leet-' and 'leek' both describe the same wavy characteristics of both a fire flame and a sand dune.

[Temujin]

I have heard rumours that latvians have been planning on shoveling our Suur Munamägi hill a little shorter, so that Latvia could claim the fame :D




I think murom. Or was it merja. The Novgorod region was Nereva, I think.




That is simply because a finnic etymology is not easily accepted by indo-europeans :)
They will studiously omit any possibility of a finno-ugric origin, if at all possible :)

There is a similar toponym in Estonia - Mustvee (black/brackish/smelly + water). In estonian dialects 'muskuva', in finnish 'moskova'?

http://bridgetomoscow.com/curious-fact-the-meaning-of-the-name-moscow
------------
Just as like with the Klaipeda = Caloi+pede = Kaloi + pääde = Kaloi + pää(n)te = fish terminal point
Or with the Vistula Lagoon = Esten + mere = barrier / weir sea
Or possibly with the Apuole castle = Apu + ala = Abi + ala = a place for help

Btw, a further remark to connect swiderians, livonians and Lietuva: Leetuva in estonian language means "(a land) with a tendency to form sand dunes".

Leet+seljandik = sand dune
Literally: sand + back, or also flame + back, since 'leet-' and 'leek' both describe the same wavy characteristics of both a fire flame and a sand dune.


The author of the article you quoted got some facts wrong while he or she was translating the sources. The rest is just 'inventive linguistics'.

There are 3 hypothesis on etymology of Moscow (Moskva). The name is pronounced as 'Mask-va' in Russian.

- Baltic hypothesis supported by influential linguist V.N. Toporov
- Slavic hypothesis supported by several linguists who lived in the 19th c.
- Finno-Ugric hypothesis supported by S. K. Kuznetsova

Slavic and Finn-Ugric hypothesis received much criticism. Baltic hypothesis looks more plausible, but so does the Slavic one. Finno-Ugric hypothesis is the weakest one.

The name 'Moskva' is derived from the name of the river named Moskva which starts in eastern part of Smolensk oblast flowing east through Moscow city entering Oka River. The map of Moskva River: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Moskva_river.png

There were no Finno-Ugric tribes living in the proximity of Moscow city or Moscow River. Finno-Ugric tribe Merjaa settled in the north far-away from the Moscow River. Finno-Ugric tribe Muroma settled around Murom city which is also far away from Moscow River. The closest Finno-Ugric tribe was Meshera settled in Ryazan and Suzdal but Moscow River is not flowing through those regions either.

It was attested in the chronicles eastern Baltic tribe eastern Galindians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galindians#Eastern_Galindians) settled on Protva River. Also, archaeologists discovered many archeological items near Mozhaysk situated on Moscow River attributing them to eastern Galindians . See the map (http://www.melc.lt/lietuva/tauta/zemelapiai.php?ZId=9&id=43) posted above by another user on which archeological findings marked with small circles around Mozhaysk located on Moscow River.

Linguist Toporov argued there are numerous Baltic hydronyms found to the west of Moscow River many of which are ending with '-va' such as Vod-va, Nad-va, Ded-va, Bol-va, Tit-va, Drez-va and others. Toporov considered Moskva and Protva to be extensions of Baltic hydronyms.
Moskva may mean swampy or moist but it's not from Finno-Ugric but from Slavic derived from the term 'mozg' - moist. Compare it to 'mosk-va'. Russians are still using the phrase 'pro-mozg do kostei’ - 'becoming wet to the bones'. The phrase is pronounced as 'pra-mosk da kastei', where 'pro-' is a prefix.

[Pure ja]

The author of the article you quoted got some facts wrong while he or she was translating the sources. The rest is just 'inventive linguistics'.

There are 3 hypothesis on etymology of Moscow (Moskva). The name is pronounced as 'Mask-va' in Russian.

- Baltic hypothesis supported by influential linguist V.N. Toporov
- Slavic hypothesis supported by several linguists who lived in the 19th c.
- Finno-Ugric hypothesis supported by S. K. Kuznetsova

Slavic and Finn-Ugric hypothesis received much criticism. Baltic hypothesis looks more plausible, but so does the Slavic one. Finno-Ugric hypothesis is the weakest one.

The name 'Moskva' is derived from the name of the river named Moskva which starts in eastern part of Smolensk oblast flowing east through Moscow city entering Oka River. The map of Moskva River: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Moskva_river.png

There were no Finno-Ugric tribes living in the proximity of Moscow city or Moscow River.


Then why is it claimed in the old chronicles that at the time of the first mention of Moscow in 1147 it was mainly inhabited by meryans and mordvinians?




Linguist Toporov argued there are numerous Baltic hydronyms found to the west of Moscow River many of which are ending with '-va' such as Vod-va, Nad-va, Ded-va, Bol-va, Tit-va, Drez-va and others. Toporov considered Moskva and Protva to be extensions of Baltic hydronyms.


I am sure that you would like to also add Narva and Pihk(u)va / P(ii)skova to that long list of baltic toponyms ending with -va.
Or how about Põlva? Pikva? Nasva? Orava? Salava?




Moskva may mean swampy or moist but it's not from Finno-Ugric but from Slavic derived from the term 'mozg' - moist.


Well, in estonian language we have a similar word 'märg' (märkä in finnish) = wet, moist; so it is still wide open.

[Temujin]

Then why is it claimed in the old chronicles that at the time of the first mention of Moscow in 1147 it was mainly inhabited by meryans and mordvinians?

There is nothing about Mordva or Merjaa settling near Moscow city in that chronicle as far as I can remember. There is no archeological evidence about Finno-Ugric settling western Moscow oblast either - the area through which Moscow river flows. However, there are some Baltic hydronyms in that area. Some people in Moscow oblast identified themselves as Goljad (Galindians) as late as the 19th century.
The capital of present day Mordovia is Saransk which is some 500km away to south-east of Moscow.
Use google translator : http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8F%D0%B4%D1%8C



I am sure that you would like to also add Narva and Pihk(u)va / P(ii)skova to that long list of baltic toponyms ending with -va.
Or how about Põlva? Pikva? Nasva? Orava? Salava?

I am sure someone as Toporov considered many options before publishing his hypothesis.




Well, in estonian language we have a similar word 'märg' (märkä in finnish) = wet, moist; so it is still wide open.

Maybe a mere coincidence.

As I wrote the name Moskva is derived from Moskva river. There were no known Finno-Ugric tribes settled in the radius of 250-300km of Moskva River. Maybe Meshera lived not too far away from the area where Moskva river enters Oka river, but that area was also populated by the Baltic tribe.
The name was invented by Slavs after they settled the area, as so many other places and rivers were given Slavic names in new settlements. Or, the name was given by local dwellers who weren't Finno-Ugric.

[lI]

I am sure that you would like to also add Narva and Pihk(u)va / P(ii)skova to that long list of baltic toponyms ending with -va.
Or how about Põlva? Pikva? Nasva? Orava? Salava?That etymology is not based on just the typical Baltic suffix. In the book of Italian linguist Pietro Umberto Dini "Baltic languages" it says that "Toporov (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Toporov) was weighing Moscow's Baltic etymology (compare Lithuanian "mazgoti" to wash) that would be a remnant of Eastern Galindians" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galindians#Eastern_Galindians).


Well, in estonian language we have a similar word 'märg' (märkä in finnish) = wet, moist; so it is still wide open.In order for it to be credible, you would have to show that there was a sound rule to convert Finnic "är" to "o" among Russians and there hasn't been such sound shift discovered as of yet, so, no, your attempt at a folk etymology does not sound credible.


That is simply because a finnic etymology is not easily accepted by indo-europeans :)
They will studiously omit any possibility of a finno-ugric origin, if at all possible :)Yeah, yeah, I totally feel for you. Those damn Indians are also trying to downplay the Samogitian contribution to their ethnogenesis!!!! :laugh:

Let's take for example the species of snakes that is endemic to South America :D
Anakonda - is obviously derived from Samogitian "ana konda" meaning "she bites" but for some reason linguists aren't taking this seriously - can you imagine?! I smell some anti-Baltic conspiracy here! :mad:

Jokes aside, dude, I didn't know I'm talking to an Estonian equivalent of the respectable Polish etymologist EastPoleTM here...

I can play with folk etymologies too:
Or possibly with the Apuole castle = Apu + ala = Abi + ala = a place for helpLithuanian: abi ("both") + ala ("slowly flowing") - Apuole's mound is situated at the confluence of two brooks.
Or
Lithuanian: a ("oh!") + puolė ("they attacked us").


Just as like with the Klaipeda = Caloi+pede = Kaloi + pääde = Kaloi + pää(n)te = fish terminal pointFor this one I don't even have to come up with my own interpretation:
"According to Samogitian folk etymology, the name Klaipėda refers to the boggy terrain of the town (klaidyti=obstruct and pėda=foot).
Most likely the name is of Curonian origin and means "even ground": "klais/klait" (flat, open, free) and "ped" (sole of the foot, ground). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaip%C4%97da#Names)"


Or with the Vistula Lagoon = Esten + mere = barrier / weir seaFor this one either: the sea situated East of Germanic tribes is known as - surprise, surprise! - the East + sea. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesti#Transference_of_the_name) And "Meri" is just a word that Finnics loaned from Balts - Aesti (the people who dwelt East of Germanics and were attested to be Indo-European rather than Finnic speakers). (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?12445-Anthropology-of-the-Estonians&p=1724128&viewfull=1#post1724128)




Btw, a further remark to connect swiderians, livonians and Lietuva: Leetuva in estonian language means "(a land) with a tendency to form sand dunes".

Leet+seljandik = sand dune
Literally: sand + back, or also flame + back, since 'leet-' and 'leek' both describe the same wavy characteristics of both a fire flame and a sand dune.Too bad Lietuva was first used to describe only the Baltic tribes in Eastern Lithuania (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/Mindaugas_Lithuania_%28Voruta%29.png), it was used synonymously with Aukstaitija - that was centuries before the West Baltic tribes (Sudovians & Curonians) separating Lithuanians from the sea and its sandy dunes were finally assimilated and the most commonly accepted etymology derives the name from a brook in the very heartland of the easly Lithuanian state - Lietava (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lietauka), a brook that easily spills out of its shallow banks (in Lithuanian: lietis "to flow;to spill"). So, your etymology is far-fetched, to say the least.



That is simply because a finnic etymology is not easily accepted by indo-europeans :)
They will studiously omit any possibility of a finno-ugric origin, if at all possible :)You do realize that the list of Indo-European loanwords in Finnic (http://tcoimom.suntuubi.com/?cat=13) which shows meri to be a loaword from Balts was compiled by a Finnish linguist. Do Finns count as Indo-European Finno-Ugric haters too in that conspiracy theory of yours?

[Pure ja]

In order for it to be credible, you would have to show that there was a sound rule to convert Finnic "är" to "o" among Russians and there hasn't been such sound shift discovered as of yet, so, no, your attempt at a folk etymology does not sound credible.


You are making the assumption that "är" was the original and only form all over the finnic area. If not, then that complicates matters.




I can play with folk etymologies too:Lithuanian: abi ("both") + ala ("slowly flowing") - Apuole's mound is situated at the confluence of two brooks.


Good to know. What about "Apu" or "Apua"?
And many strongholds in many places are situated at two brooks. Are there any similar -la or -ala endings with two brooks?



For this one I don't even have to come up with my own interpretation:
"According to Samogitian folk etymology, the name Klaipėda refers to the boggy terrain of the town (klaidyti=obstruct and pėda=foot).


That is nice folklore, but what about the original form 'Caloi+pede'? The 'Caloi' specifically?




Most likely the name is of Curonian origin and means "even ground": "klais/klait" (flat, open, free) and "ped" (sole of the foot, ground). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaip%C4%97da#Names)"


I don't see 'caloi' there.

But even if it was 'klais', there are again similar words in estonian and finnish: 'kale / kõle', 'kalju', meaning bare, bald.
And as to 'ped', there are again similar words like 'pind' and 'põndak', first referring to a surface and the other to a higher flat ground above the surrounding area.




For this one either: the sea situated East of Germanic tribes is known as - surprise, surprise! - the East + sea. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesti#Transference_of_the_name)


Not according to this wiki article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Lagoon#Etymology

The earliest version of the name of Vistula Lagoon has been recorded in historical sources by Wulfstan, an Anglo-Saxon sailor and merchant at the end of the 9th Century as Estmere.[2] It is an Anglo-Saxon translation of Old Prusian name for the lagoon - *Aīstinmari (modern Lithuanian - Aistmarės) derived from (OP - Old Prussian) Aistei - "Ests", (LAT - Latin)"Aestii" etc. and (OP) *mari - "lagoon (a body of water cut off from a larger body by a reef of sand), fresh water bay".[3]

So is it a lagoon or a sea? Or both? As I have mentioned before, Estonian toponyms containing -mere or -meri apply to a sea, part of a sea, or a lake or a swamp that was once part of the sea due to postglacial isostatic rebound. And the oldest such 'meri/mere' toponym in south-west Estonian mainland was on the seashore some 12000 years ago before the Billingen event. Other meri/mere toponym examples go back 2000-3000 years or more.

As to 'est-', why would they call a small lagoon as 'east'? Mind you, it wasn't the most eastern lagoon, Curonian Lagoon is the most eastern one. And who were those who supposedly called it as 'east sea'? Gotlanders who migrated there would not have made such a mistake. All the north germanics named the Baltic Sea as a whole as the East Sea. The explanation you found and have offered does not fit. It is a folk tale explanation made up later, while the original meaning has largely gone missing (or unnoticed since nobody would think of looking into finnish).

On the other hand, if we concentrate on the "cut off from a larger body by a reef of sand", then 'este' in finnish means a barrier / weir. So then esten+mere becomes a sea behind a barrier.




And "Meri" is just a word that Finnics loaned from Balts - Aesti (the people who dwelt East of Germanics and were attested to be Indo-European rather than Finnic speakers). (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?12445-Anthropology-of-the-Estonians&p=1724128&viewfull=1#post1724128)


That is again just a popular explanation, which does not explain anything really.
If coastal prussians were bilingual, then the test of indo-europeanness fails.

What would explain is that curonians were originally finnic and only during the late neolithic became bilingual and finally in several stages turned into balts. If we accept that, then it is not that hard to guess that perhaps the maritime prussians were at earlier times also bilingual finns, just as the curonians later or fennoswedes today. If we accept that the whole eastern shore of the Baltic Sea was originally finnic, then it is easy to see how those prussians and curonians and oeselians and estonians were depicted as ests by others. Prussians and curonians and oeselians and estonians had their own regional identity and even if they did call themselves collectively as ests in the distant past, it fell out of use as bilingual finns became balts. And estonians are called ests because we still speak the language and through oeselians have the connection with the whole original region of Aestii.

Where do you think the Aestii island of Balcia was? Prussia, Lithuania and Latvia are known for their lack of islands. That is the Saaremaa/Oeselian county of Valjala = Valdjala = Valtio + ala = state area. What was there? The Kaali meteorite crater where sun worshipping was practiced. And guess what, amber is found on their shores as well.



Too bad Lietuva was first used to describe only the Baltic tribes in Eastern Lithuania (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/Mindaugas_Lithuania_%28Voruta%29.png), it was used synonymously with Aukstaitija - that was centuries before the West Baltic tribes (Sudovians & Curonians) separating Lithuanians from the sea and its sandy dunes were finally assimilated and the most commonly accepted etymology derives the name from a brook in the very heartland of the easly Lithuanian state - Lietava (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lietauka), a brook that easily spills out of its shallow banks (in Lithuanian: lietis "to flow;to spill"). So, your etymology is far-fetched, to say the least.


Perhaps. Perhaps not.



You do realize that the list of Indo-European loanwords in Finnic (http://tcoimom.suntuubi.com/?cat=13) which shows meri to be a loaword from Balts was compiled by a Finnish linguist. Do Finns count as Indo-European Finno-Ugric haters too in that conspiracy theory of yours?

I guess he didn't really delve into the toponyms of Estonia.

[Temujin]

There's more evidence to support Baltic hypothesis presented by Toporov. There're 2 villages in 2 different districts of Moscow oblast named Goljadi (Galindians)

Goljadi, Dmitrovski district, Moscow oblast (https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=ru&geocode=&q=%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%8F,+%D0%9C%D0% BE%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F +%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C,+%D0%9 4%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA% D0%B8%D0%B9+%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BE%D0%BD,+%D0%93 %D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8F%D0%B4%D0%B8&aq=0&oq=%D0%93%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8F%D0%B4%D0%B8+%D0%B4&sll=55.927663,36.677856&sspn=1.264827,3.427734&vpsrc=6&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=%D0%93%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8F%D0%B4%D0%B8,+%D0%94 %D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D 0%B8%D0%B9+%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BE%D0%BD,+%D0%9C% D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1 %8F+%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C,+%D 0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%8F&ll=56.541315,37.507324&spn=2.489543,6.855469&t=m&z=7)
Goljadi, Klinski district, Moscow oblast (http://pogodnik.com/5559-%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B0-%D0%B2-%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8F%D0%B4%D1%8F%D1%85)


There is a small river 'Goljadanka' flowing through eastern suburbs of Moscow city. -Mar'iono (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8C%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE_%28%D1% 80%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BE%D0%BD_%D0%9C%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%B A%D0%B2%D1%8B%29)

There are ponds called Golyadanka in Perovo and Lublin districts of Moscow city. The hydronym 'Goljadanka' is linked to eastern Galindians settled the region.

[Pure ja]

There's more evidence to support Baltic hypothesis presented by Toporov. There're 2 villages in 2 different districts of Moscow oblast named Goljadi (Galindians)

Goljadi, Dmitrovski district, Moscow oblast (https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=ru&geocode=&q=%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%8F,+%D0%9C%D0% BE%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F +%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C,+%D0%9 4%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA% D0%B8%D0%B9+%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BE%D0%BD,+%D0%93 %D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8F%D0%B4%D0%B8&aq=0&oq=%D0%93%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8F%D0%B4%D0%B8+%D0%B4&sll=55.927663,36.677856&sspn=1.264827,3.427734&vpsrc=6&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=%D0%93%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8F%D0%B4%D0%B8,+%D0%94 %D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D 0%B8%D0%B9+%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BE%D0%BD,+%D0%9C% D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1 %8F+%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C,+%D 0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%8F&ll=56.541315,37.507324&spn=2.489543,6.855469&t=m&z=7)
Goljadi, Klinski district, Moscow oblast (http://pogodnik.com/5559-%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B0-%D0%B2-%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8F%D0%B4%D1%8F%D1%85)


There is a small river 'Goljadanka' flowing through eastern suburbs of Moscow city. -Mar'iono (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8C%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE_%28%D1% 80%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BE%D0%BD_%D0%9C%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%B A%D0%B2%D1%8B%29)

There are ponds called Golyadanka in Perovo and Lublin districts of Moscow city. The hydronym 'Goljadanka' is linked to eastern Galindians settled the region.

I am not denying the goljadi. It is just that they were not in Moscow according to the chronicles. Merya and mordvin were.
And there are also a lot of finnic toponyms around Moscow area, contrary to your claim.

http://www.egorievsk.ru/eng/history/lwmecshera.html

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Moscow#Name

http://www.1902encyclopedia.com/M/MOS/moscow-06.html

http://wiki.verbix.com/Languages/Merya

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyakovskaya_culture

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&q=Moscow+merya+hydronym

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Moscow+mordvin+hydronym&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5

http://www.sgr.fi/susa/93/rahkonen.pdf

https://helda.helsinki.fi/handle/10138/38908

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Moscow+finnic+hydronym&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5

[Temujin]

I am not denying the goljadi. It is just that they were not in Moscow according to the chronicles. Merya and mordvin were.

Quote the passage from the chronicle. Merjaa settled further north and north-east. Mordva lives far away from the river. Goljadi hydronyms and toponyms are known to exist Moscow city and Moscow oblast from 13-14th century - a couple of centuries after Moscow city was founded.

[Temujin]

http://www.egorievsk.ru/eng/history/lwmecshera.html

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Moscow#Name

http://www.1902encyclopedia.com/M/MOS/moscow-06.html

http://wiki.verbix.com/Languages/Merya

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyakovskaya_culture

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&q=Moscow+merya+hydronym

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Moscow+mordvin+hydronym&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5

http://www.sgr.fi/susa/93/rahkonen.pdf

https://helda.helsinki.fi/handle/10138/38908

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Moscow+finnic+hydronym&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5

The first source one mentions settlement of Meshera on the banks of Oka which is in Ryazan oblast mentioning the possibility of Meshera wondering to Moscow river. Perhaps part of Moscow river that flows into Oka River?

Wikipedia article states the following without providing the references.


The origin of the name is unknown, although several theories exist. The most reliable theory is that the name derives from Finno-Ugric Moska tribe who lived along the Moskva riverTheir main settlement was named Moskova which suggest some connections to Karelia and Tshuudis. One theory suggests that the source of the name is an ancient Finnic language, in which it means "dark" and "turbid." Alternatively, the name may come from the Finno-Permic Komi language, meaning "cow-river" or from the Finno-Volgaic Mordovian language, meaning "bear-river". In Tatar-Turkic languages this wooden Finno-Ugrian settlement was also called Moskova.


What's Finno-Ugric tribe Moska? Was there such a Finno-Ugric tribe with 'connection to Karelia'? I looked through your other sources... Dude, what kind of sources are you quoting? I've quoted hypothesis of well known linguists.

[Temujin]

It seems you cannot analyse the sources you're quoting neither do you know the geography of Russia.

Merja settled the following regions: Vladimir, Yaroslavl, Ivanovo, Vologda, Kostroma, eastern Tver’ and eastern Moscow oblast near Vladimir.
Meshera settled in Ryazan. Muroma - in Murom.
Mordva lives (unless there was another Finno-Ugric tribe under the same name) so far away from Moscow that it’s not worth brining them into the discussion.

Through none of the aforementioned regions the River Moscow flows. I remind you the term Moscow is derived from the name of Moscow river which flows from eastern Smolensk (western Russia) towards Moscow city turning south towards Tula and western Ryazan.

[Pure ja]

The first source one mentions settlement of Meshera on the banks of Oka which is in Ryazan oblast mentioning the possibility of Meshera wondering to Moscow river. Perhaps part of Moscow river that flows into Oka River?

Wikipedia article states the following without providing the references.

What's Finno-Ugric tribe Moska? Was there such a Finno-Ugric tribe with 'connection to Karelia'? I looked through your other sources... Dude, what kind of sources are you quoting? I've quoted hypothesis of well known linguists.

I guess you didn't reach to Rahkonen. His work has several mistakes (concerning the Pskov-Novgorod area), but nevertheless it shows that the finno-ugric toponym area also includes the Moscow area. He also references several other scholars, who have their own maps (also shown in Rahkonen).

Mind you, a finno-ugric toponym area does not necessarily exclude an overlapping baltic toponym area.
But Moskva specifically is more considered as a finno-ugric toponym. At least that is what I have read.

[Pure ja]

The first source one mentions settlement of Meshera on the banks of Oka which is in Ryazan oblast mentioning the possibility of Meshera wondering to Moscow river. Perhaps part of Moscow river that flows into Oka River?

Wikipedia article states the following without providing the references.

What's Finno-Ugric tribe Moska? Was there such a Finno-Ugric tribe with 'connection to Karelia'? I looked through your other sources... Dude, what kind of sources are you quoting? I've quoted hypothesis of well known linguists.

you also missed the several settlements of different finno-ugric peoples at the river Moskva.

[glass]

Pure ja and Karl might be share the same "Univercity" where they study estonian historical fiction together.

[Pure ja]

I have now read a prior argument here in Apricity on the origin of Moscow.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?4264-Vestards-Simcus-We-re-dying-out-Latvians-are-not-a-viable-nation&p=47950&viewfull=1#post47950

Perhaps Osweo can comment on newer developments on Dyakovo, Moscow is littered with Dyakovo settlements:
http://finugor.ru/node/22305

Also, note the following, which suggests that the Volga-finnic Dyakovo people stayed around:

"Интересно, что позднейшие культурные наслоения на том же Дьяковом городище совсем незначительны - народная память хранила «табу» на культовые места дьяковцев, оградив их от последующих застроек разнообразными легендами. К примеру, Дьяково городище, как и многие другие подобные места в России, называют «Чертовым городком». Название это к нечистой силе, конечно, не имеет никакого отношения, а основано на насаждении и противопоставлении христианства традиционным природным верованиям дьяковцев."

[Pure ja]

Pure ja and Karl might be share the same "Univercity" where they study estonian historical fiction together.

Not likely.
The university I went through does not teach history.
In fact, Karl might argue that there is only one real university in Estonia (the first one in the Russian Empire) - his. ;)

[Pure ja]

As to the VI-VII century AD crisis, that is now well known to have been caused by a deterioration of climate all over Europe, it also brought about fatal diseases. A similar "collapse" of the population is evident in Estonian archeology. But that does not mean displacement, far from it.

[Temujin]

I have now read a prior argument here in Apricity on the origin of Moscow.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?4264-Vestards-Simcus-We-re-dying-out-Latvians-are-not-a-viable-nation&p=47950&viewfull=1#post47950

Perhaps Osweo can comment on newer developments on Dyakovo, Moscow is littered with Dyakovo settlements:
http://finugor.ru/node/22305

Also, note the following, which suggests that the Volga-finnic Dyakovo people stayed around:

"Интересно, что позднейшие культурные наслоения на том же Дьяковом городище совсем незначительны - народная память хранила «табу» на культовые места дьяковцев, оградив их от последующих застроек разнообразными легендами. К примеру, Дьяково городище, как и многие другие подобные места в России, называют «Чертовым городком». Название это к нечистой силе, конечно, не имеет никакого отношения, а основано на насаждении и противопоставлении христианства традиционным природным верованиям дьяковцев."


There is always uncertainty in attributing languages or ethnicities to early archaeological cultures. People of Dyakovo archaeological culture being Finno-Ugric is only a hypothesis, whereas eastern Galindians being Balts and Merjaa being Finno-Ugric is established fact.

Moreover,
River Moskovka /Moskovitsa is found in Carpathians
River Moskawa is found in Poland: http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moskawa

As you can see similarly named rivers are found in the areas never settled by Finno-Ugric tribes. That doesn’t change the fact hydronyms found in Moscow oblast and hydronym Moskva in particular may have Baltic origins. The concentration of Finno-Ugric hydronyms are found in the north-east of Moscow oblast -- Merjaa settlement.

Reference to Toporov's work


Однако самое широкое признание среди специалистов получила балтийская этимология гидронима Москва, разработанная академиком В.Н. Топоровым. Он убедительно показывает, что источником известных нам форм Москва, Московь, Москова могли быть балтийские формы типа Mask-(u)va, Maskava, Mazgava, обозначающие нечто "жидкое, мокрое, топкое, вязкое, слякотное". Конечно, в целом река Москва не может считаться болотистой, но на отдельных участках ее течения подобная характеристика была вполне возможной. Достаточно вспомнить, что начинается река в Старьковском болоте (оно же Москворецкая Лужа). Поскольку наиболее крупные реки рассматриваемого нами региона отнесены к числу балтийских, то впадающие в них средние реки должны быть не более древними, т.е. иметь также балтийское или еще более позднее происхождение.
Source: http://nasledie.dubna.ru/itemprint.asp?iditem=46

[Pure ja]

There is always uncertainty in attributing languages or ethnicities to early archaeological cultures. People of Dyakovo archaeological culture being Finno-Ugric is only a hypothesis


It is quite a strong hypothesis. Otherwise you would have to create an entirely new (hemi)boreal language group with similar etymologies to finno-ugrians.



... whereas eastern Galindians being Balts and Merjaa being Finno-Ugric is established fact.


Actually the origin of galindians are almost as shaky as that of curonians - in historical times galindians are attested as (primarily) baltic, but that does not exclude a possibility of a finnic origin some / many centuries / millennia ago.




Moreover,
River Moskovka /Moskovitsa is found in Carpathians
River Moskawa is found in Poland: http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moskawa
As you can see similarly named rivers are found in the areas never settled by Finno-Ugric tribes.


River Moskawa is close to the Swiderian culture region, so there!
If already swiderian was uralic, then ...

The stem could also be nostratic.



That doesn’t change the fact hydronyms found in Moscow oblast and hydronym Moskva in particular may have Baltic origins.


It may have, but given the Dyakovo settlements and the finnic origin of Dyakovo and avoiding the sacred places strongly indicates that you are wrong.

Contemporary russians in Estonia are very inconsiderate towards old estonian sacred places, even while the natives are still around and even in majority.




The concentration of Finno-Ugric hydronyms are found in the north-east of Moscow oblast -- Merjaa settlement.


And the concentration of baltic hydronyms are found to the west and south-west of Moscow.

[Temujin]

It is quite a strong hypothesis. Otherwise you would have to create an entirely new (hemi)boreal language group with similar etymologies to finno-ugrians.

I've read enough on the subject to know most early archeological cultures such as Dyakovo being associated with language or ethnicity are hypotheses.



Actually the origin of galindians are almost as shaky as that of curonians - in historical times galindians are attested as (primarily) baltic, but that does not exclude a possibility of a finnic origin some / many centuries / millennia ago.

Western Galindians settled eastern Prussia. There has been academic work done on eastern Galindians. The origin of the tribe is not doubted.



River Moskawa is close to the Swiderian culture region, so there!
If already swiderian was uralic, then ...

The stem could also be nostratic.

The term 'mozg/mosk' exists in modern Russian. The term 'mazgati' exists in modern Lithuanian. Known linguists associate the term with Mosk-va/Mask-va. That's a widely supported hypothesis of Moskva etymology. There is plenty of work done on on the subject in the last 200 years. There is no need for guessing arriving with your own version.



It may have, but given the Dyakovo settlements and the finnic origin of Dyakovo and avoiding the sacred places strongly indicates that you are wrong.
Finno-Ugric tribe maybe a good candidate for Dyakovo culture, but it's still a hypothesis. In any case, it doesn't help your cause to prove Finno-Ugric version of Moskva.


Contemporary russians in Estonia are very inconsiderate towards old estonian sacred places, even while the natives are still around and even in majority.

Contemporary Russians in academia don't have problems acknowledging Finno-Ugric, Baltic, Turkic, Slavic and whatnot toponyms and hydronyms, as there are many of different origins found all over Russia.



And the concentration of baltic hydronyms are found to the west and south-west of Moscow.

Moscow city is in the centre of Moscow oblast. Moscow River starts in the west of Moscow oblast.

[Pure ja]

I've read enough on the subject to know most early archeological cultures such as Dyakovo being associated with language or ethnicity are hypotheses.


There is not much choice with Dyakovo: either finno-ugric, baltic or slavic. The unearthed items show finno-ugric heritage, so even if the Dyakovo people switched their language it was originally likely still finno-ugric.




Western Galindians settled eastern Prussia. There has been academic work done on eastern Galindians. The origin of the tribe is not doubted.


You are not even talking about origin, you are talking about the last unknown phase before history.
Next you are going to say that the origin of latgalians is also not in doubt, while it is a known fact that all the Latvian territory north to the river Väina (Daugava) was in a not so distant past finno-ugric.




The term 'mozg/mosk' exists in modern Russian. The term 'mazgati' exists in modern Lithuanian. Known linguists associate the term with Mosk-va/Mask-va. That's a widely supported hypothesis of Moskva etymology.


It is not as widely supported as you make it appear. The finno-ugric origin hypothesis is more widely supported.
There is plenty of work done on on the subject in the last 200 years. There is no need for guessing arriving with your own version.




Finno-Ugric tribe maybe a good candidate for Dyakovo culture, but it's still a hypothesis. In any case, it doesn't help your cause to prove Finno-Ugric version of Moskva.


It does.




Moscow city is in the centre of Moscow oblast. Moscow River starts in the west of Moscow oblast.

And Moscow is not at the western end of the Moscow oblast.

[glass]

Not likely.
The university I went through does not teach history.
In fact, Karl might argue that there is only one real university in Estonia (the first one in the Russian Empire) - his. ;)
first one in the Russian Empire does not teach all bullshit Karl writes, i know it first hand:D

[Temujin]

There is not much choice with Dyakovo: either finno-ugric, baltic or slavic. The unearthed items show finno-ugric heritage, so even if the Dyakovo people switched their language it was originally likely still finno-ugric.

Archeological cultures from early Iron age belonging to specific ethnicities are hypotheses. There could be several. In any case, the discussion of the origins of Dyakovo is irrelevant to etymology of Moskva hydronym.



You are not even talking about origin, you are talking about the last unknown phase before history.

The last known phase was the 19th century during which some people identified themselves as 'Goljadi'. The same name was recoded almost 1000 years in the chronicle.


Next you are going to say that the origin of latgalians is also not in doubt, while it is a known fact that all the Latvian territory north to the river Väina (Daugava) was in a not so distant past finno-ugric.


Irrelevant to the discussion.


It is not as widely supported as you make it appear. The finno-ugric origin hypothesis is more widely supported.


It's the most popular hypothesis presented by academician Toporov. He has done significant work on toponyms and hydronyms.



And Moscow is not at the western end of the Moscow oblast.

Moskva is a hydronym derived from the name of the River. Slavs settled Moscow arriving from west and south-west.

It's become crystal clear you don't know much about the subject seeing you trying to link Mordva living 500-600km to Moscow region, while bringing bits of information irrelevant to the discussion. It won't give any weight to your arguments unless you start quoting linguists who have done significant work on Slavic, Finno-Ugric and Baltic toponyms and hydronyms. I have already quoted different linguists supporting Slavic, Baltic and Finno-Ugric origin. Finno-Ugric was the weakest one.

[Pure ja]

first one in the Russian Empire does not teach all bullshit Karl writes, i know it first hand:D

You went to the University of Tartu?

[glass]

You went to the University of Tartu?
University in Tartu founded in 1800s among a few others across Russia, it can not be first in Empire ;)

[Pure ja]

Archeological cultures from early Iron age belonging to specific ethnicities are hypotheses. There could be several.


Sure, but the most likely is for Dyakovo is finno-ugric. By far the most likely.



In any case, the discussion of the origins of Dyakovo is irrelevant to etymology of Moskva hydronym.


You are not making sense.
Is the etymology of Ledenets / Lindanise / Lidnan+ase not dependent on the origin of people living around Tallinn?




The last known phase was the 19th century during which some people identified themselves as 'Goljadi'. The same name was recoded almost 1000 years in the chronicle.


Just a name does not tell much. In Estonia the capitol of the Sakala county was Viljan+di, while the south-eastern county was named Ugan+di. If we take Golja from Golja+di, that can be construed from Kaali = Kalev. So the Golja+di would become Kaali+tie (the road of Kaali = Kalev, could be interpreted as the river route from the Kaali meteorite crater via Väinameri sea up via river Väina). I am not claiming that Goljadi developed from Kaali+tie, just that the interpretation ovbiously also depends on alternative past scenarios.

I can just as easily say that the etymology of Moscow does not depend on the origin of Goljadi, but what would be the use of that?




Irrelevant to the discussion.


Says you.




It's the most popular hypothesis presented by academician Toporov. He has done significant work on toponyms and hydronyms.


He is not the only one.




Moskva is a hydronym derived from the name of the River. Slavs settled Moscow arriving from west and south-west.


That is irrelevant.




It's become crystal clear you don't know much about the subject seeing you trying to link Mordva living 500-600km to Moscow region, while bringing bits of information irrelevant to the discussion. It won't give any weight to your arguments unless you start quoting linguists who have done significant work on Slavic, Finno-Ugric and Baltic toponyms and hydronyms. I have already quoted different linguists supporting Slavic, Baltic and Finno-Ugric origin. Finno-Ugric was the weakest one.

The truth will never be confirmed in forums. That is what scientific articles are.
You refuse to look at viable alternative explanations. I have already given you some sources (from Rahkonen) to go on.

[Temujin]

You went to the University of Tartu?

Dude, don't let your University studies interfere with your education.

[Pure ja]

University in Tartu founded in 1800s among a few others across Russia, it can not be first in Empire ;)

It was founded in 1632 and closed in 1710.

[Temujin]

That is irrelevant.

That's about sums up your knowledge on the subject and contribution to the discussion.

[glass]

It was founded in 1632 and closed in 1710.
Tartu was not part of Russia/russian sphere of influence in 1224-1721, so any german/swedish/polish business there is irrelevant to Russia during that period. University of Tartu as it exists now founded in 1800s during Alexander I education reform

[Pure ja]

It's the most popular hypothesis presented by academician Toporov. He has done significant work on toponyms and hydronyms.


Your most cherished Toporov is known to have been wrong.

Search for Toporov here:
http://www.helsinki.fi/venaja/nwrussia/eng/Conference/pdf/Ahlqvist.pdf
at the end of page 40

45
Proposals that place names such as Somina are of Baltic origin (e.g. Toporov & Trubačev
1962: 208–209) fail to stand up to scrutiny, at least in the former Finno-Ugrian territories(see
the approximate distribution of hydronyms with this root in WRG IV: 164, 350–351). The
substratum place name root Som(V)- with its numerous variants originally had nothing to do
with either Russian or any other anthroponym, nor even with the Russian name of the fish
som (‘wels,sheat-fish’)(see Smirnov 1926: 47; cf. also Voroncova & Galkin 2002: 306).

[Pure ja]

That's about sums up your knowledge on the subject and contribution to the discussion.

In your mind.

[Pure ja]

Tartu was not part of Russia/russian sphere of influence in 1224-1721, so any german/swedish/polish business there is irrelevant to Russia during that period. University of Tartu as it exists now founded in 1800s during Alexander I education reform

Tartu was ravaged by the Russian forces in 1708-10, and was since then de facto part of the Russian Empire.

[Temujin]

Your most cherished Toporov is known to have been wrong.

Search for Toporov here:
http://www.helsinki.fi/venaja/nwrussia/eng/Conference/pdf/Ahlqvist.pdf
at the end of page 40

45
Proposals that place names such as Somina are of Baltic origin (e.g. Toporov & Trubačev
1962: 208–209) fail to stand up to scrutiny, at least in the former Finno-Ugrian territories(see
the approximate distribution of hydronyms with this root in WRG IV: 164, 350–351). The
substratum place name root Som(V)- with its numerous variants originally had nothing to do
with either Russian or any other anthroponym, nor even with the Russian name of the fish
som (‘wels,sheat-fish’)(see Smirnov 1926: 47; cf. also Voroncova & Galkin 2002: 306).

Some of Toprov's work on Finno-Ugric toponyms was questioned (by who?), therefore all his work is in doubt? That's not how it works in the field of linguistics, history or archeology.
Toporov (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2,_%D0%92 %D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80_%D0%9D% D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1 %87) was a renowned linguist in Russia and around the world making significant contribution to the body of knowledge in linguistics.

[Temujin]

In your mind.

In my mind you are also not capable to engage in a constructive logical discussion finding bits and pieces of inaccurate or completely irrelevant information. The post above was a good example.

[Pure ja]

Some of Toprov's work on Finno-Ugric toponyms was questioned (by who?), therefore all his work is in doubt? That's not how it works in the field of linguistics, history or archeology.
Toporov (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2,_%D0%92 %D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80_%D0%9D% D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1 %87) was a renowned linguist in Russia and around the world making significant contribution to the body of knowledge in linguistics.

To err is human.

[Pure ja]

Let's look back what you wrote.



There are 3 hypothesis on etymology of Moscow (Moskva). The name is pronounced as 'Mask-va' in Russian.

- Baltic hypothesis supported by influential linguist V.N. Toporov
- Slavic hypothesis supported by several linguists who lived in the 19th c.
- Finno-Ugric hypothesis supported by S. K. Kuznetsova

Slavic and Finn-Ugric hypothesis received much criticism. Baltic hypothesis looks more plausible, but so does the Slavic one. Finno-Ugric hypothesis is the weakest one.

The name 'Moskva' is derived from the name of the river named Moskva which starts in eastern part of Smolensk oblast flowing east through Moscow city entering Oka River. The map of Moskva River: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Moskva_river.png


Fine. Let it be as you claim.



There were no Finno-Ugric tribes living in the proximity of Moscow city or Moscow River. Finno-Ugric tribe Merjaa settled in the north far-away from the Moscow River. Finno-Ugric tribe Muroma settled around Murom city which is also far away from Moscow River. The closest Finno-Ugric tribe was Meshera settled in Ryazan and Suzdal but Moscow River is not flowing through those regions either.


here you have been proven wrong, at least very likely so.



It was attested in the chronicles eastern Baltic tribe eastern Galindians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galindians#Eastern_Galindians) settled on Protva River. Also, archaeologists discovered many archeological items near Mozhaysk situated on Moscow River attributing them to eastern Galindians . See the map (http://www.melc.lt/lietuva/tauta/zemelapiai.php?ZId=9&id=43) posted above by another user on which archeological findings marked with small circles around Mozhaysk located on Moscow River.


Those archeological findings are marked as Dyakovo items and centered outside of the Galindian region. Dyakovo was very likely volga finnic, as I have argued.

Also, note that in that picture
http://www.melc.lt/lietuva/tauta/zemelapiai.php?ZId=9&id=43
there is a baltic influence periphery, but no finno-ugric influence periphery is shown. One of your mistakes is to never consider the opposite direction, even if it sticks straight into your eye - look at the Dyakovo items.



Linguist Toporov argued there are numerous Baltic hydronyms found to the west of Moscow River many of which are ending with '-va' such as Vod-va, Nad-va, Ded-va, Bol-va, Tit-va, Drez-va and others. Toporov considered Moskva and Protva to be extensions of Baltic hydronyms.


As I have shown the -va ending is insufficient to make such a claim. You can make the claim, of course, but the case is still wide open.
So what else did Toporov actually claim in regard with Moskva?




Moskva may mean swampy or moist but it's not from Finno-Ugric but from Slavic derived from the term 'mozg' - moist. Compare it to 'mosk-va'. Russians are still using the phrase 'pro-mozg do kostei’ - 'becoming wet to the bones'. The phrase is pronounced as 'pra-mosk da kastei', where 'pro-' is a prefix.

Circumstantial evidence.
The case is still open. The Dyakovo settlements favour the volga finnic origin.

PS. The estonian equivalents to the russian 'mozg' are 'märg' and 'niisk(e)'. These forms are less similar to Moskva, but then again it is not at all clear that Moskva derives from 'mozg'. It could derive from a (volga) finnic 'mosk'.

[Pure ja]

That etymology is not based on just the typical Baltic suffix. In the book of Italian linguist Pietro Umberto Dini "Baltic languages" it says that "Toporov (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Toporov) was weighing Moscow's Baltic etymology (compare Lithuanian "mazgoti" to wash) that would be a remnant of Eastern Galindians" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galindians#Eastern_Galindians).


And what was his explanation for the change from 'Mozg'/'Mazg' to 'Mosk'?

And what was his reason to discard the volga finnic 'mosk'?

[Pure ja]

I remind you the term Moscow is derived from the name of Moscow river which flows from eastern Smolensk (western Russia) towards Moscow city turning south towards Tula and western Ryazan.

A river can just as well be named after the lower sink end, not just by the source end. Or it could be named on an entirely different matter.

For example the old finnic name for Velikaya is Isso (=large, father). You and some of your baltic colleagues here would surely argue that
Isso is just a translation from Velikaya. But you would be wrong, because Lake Peipus is also fed by Suur Emajõgi (the Great Mother river), which in turn is fed by Väike Emajõgi (Small Mother river) via Lake Võrtsjärv. The river Narva / Narova probably stems from narua / naruva / nõruva, meaning an umbilical cord.

Pskov comes from piiskova / piiskuva, meaning 'generating droplets', ejaculation, if you will.
Pihkva / Pihkova means essentially the same thing.
pihk = palm / hand
pihkuma = generating droplets, ejaculation
And the Lake Pskov is actually named Lämmijärv in estonian, meaning a lake of love / heat.

So we have a great father ejaculating droplets in (great) love, a great mother growing her stomach which also has an umbilical cord. And we also know that about 13 000 up to 14 500 years ago the ice lake at the spot of Lake Peipus + Lämmijärv first emptied itself via Võhandu + Mustjõe + Koiva (Gauja) into the Baltic Ice Lake (at bay of Riga), later on that Peipus ice lake joined with the Baltic ice lake via the strait that still later on became the river Suur Emajõgi.

And while the glaciers were melting and forming local ice lakes which later merged, isostatic rebound raised the land from under the water to above the water level. The first hilltops in Estonia to merge from the glacier / water were the highest mountains on the Haanja uplands, the highest of these might well have been the Suur Munamägi hill (the Great Egg Hill). That happened about 14 000 to 14 500 years ago.

And then we have the national epics of Kalevala and Kalevipoeg telling us the world creation myth with the water and egg. Mind you, these epics are based on folklore snippets collected from people around Finland, Karelia and Estonia, and not from single stories either. So don't even try to claim that the creation myth was made up.

PS. If the baltic finns supposedly had arrived from somewhere east (even more so if behind the Urals), then they would not have kept a localized creation myth. They would not have even known that there had been glaciers and ice lakes here and that mountains grew out from those ice lake waters.

[Inti]

Funny discussion. :)

[Temujin]

Fine. Let it be as you claim.

These were the claims of acclaimed linguists whom I referenced.



here you have been proven wrong, at least very likely so.


Dyakovo archaeological culture does not provide any evidence in relation to Moskva etymology.



Those archeological findings are marked as Dyakovo items and centered outside of the Galindian region. Dyakovo was very likely volga finnic, as I have argued.

Also, note that in that picture
http://www.melc.lt/lietuva/tauta/zemelapiai.php?ZId=9&id=43
there is a baltic influence periphery, but no finno-ugric influence periphery is shown. One of your mistakes is to never consider the opposite direction, even if it sticks straight into your eye - look at the Dyakovo items.


I linked 3 "Goljadi" hydronyms found in metropolitan of Moscow city. The hydronyms existed since 13-14th century in the city. I suspect there are lots of them if we search for them in Moscow city itself. There is no doubt about strong presence of Slavic and Baltic hydronyms and toponyms in western Moscow and Moscow to people who have read on the subject. There are little Finno-Ugric toponyms and hydronms found in the aforementioned regions. This is also stated in the source which you quoted earlier to discredit Toporov's linguistic expertise but failed to read the source in its entirety. Your source states what I wrote earlier about Finno-Ugric toponyms and hydronyms found in central Russia.


The territory of the Merya people, defined mainly according to archeological data, comprised, besides almost the entiry present Jaroslavl's Province, a considerable part of the Kostroma, Ivanovo and Vladimir Provinces, including small territories in both Tver' Provinces.
Source: http://www.helsinki.fi/venaja/nwrussia/eng/Conference/pdf/Ahlqvist.pdf


And that small area in Moscow oblast is eastern and north-eastern which are a fair distant from Moscow city and the banks of Moscow river.



As I have shown the -va ending is insufficient to make such a claim. You can make the claim, of course, but the case is still wide open.
So what else did Toporov actually claim in regard with Moskva?

You have not shown anything. The claims about the rivers ending with '-va' are not my claims either.



Circumstantial evidence.
The case is still open. The Dyakovo settlements favour the volga finnic origin.

There is no single linguist to my knowledge who linked Moskva hydronym to Dyakovo archeological culture from the early Iron age.


The estonian equivalents to the russian 'mozg' are 'märg' and 'niisk(e)'. These forms are less similar to Moskva, but then again it is not at all clear that Moskva derives from 'mozg'. It could derive from a (volga) finnic 'mosk'.

You may as well start searching for linguistic similarities in Americas or New Guinea.

[Temujin]

A river can just as well be named after the lower sink end, not just by the source end. Or it could be named on an entirely different matter.

For example the old finnic name for Velikaya is Isso (=large, father). You and some of your baltic colleagues here would surely argue that
Isso is just a translation from Velikaya. But you would be wrong, because Lake Peipus is also fed by Suur Emajõgi (the Great Mother river), which in turn is fed by Väike Emajõgi (Small Mother river) via Lake Võrtsjärv. The river Narva / Narova probably stems from narua / naruva / nõruva, meaning an umbilical cord.

Pskov comes from piiskova / piiskuva, meaning 'generating droplets', ejaculation, if you will.
Pihkva / Pihkova means essentially the same thing.
pihk = palm / hand
pihkuma = generating droplets, ejaculation
And the Lake Pskov is actually named Lämmijärv in estonian, meaning a lake of love / heat.

So we have a great father ejaculating droplets in (great) love, a great mother growing her stomach which also has an umbilical cord. And we also know that about 13 000 up to 14 500 years ago the ice lake at the spot of Lake Peipus + Lämmijärv first emptied itself via Võhandu + Mustjõe + Koiva (Gauja) into the Baltic Ice Lake (at bay of Riga), later on that Peipus ice lake joined with the Baltic ice lake via the strait that still later on became the river Suur Emajõgi.

And while the glaciers were melting and forming local ice lakes which later merged, isostatic rebound raised the land from under the water to above the water level. The first hilltops in Estonia to merge from the glacier / water were the highest mountains on the Haanja uplands, the highest of these might well have been the Suur Munamägi hill (the Great Egg Hill). That happened about 14 000 to 14 500 years ago.

And then we have the national epics of Kalevala and Kalevipoeg telling us the world creation myth with the water and egg. Mind you, these epics are based on folklore snippets collected from people around Finland, Karelia and Estonia, and not from single stories either. So don't even try to claim that the creation myth was made up.

PS. If the baltic finns supposedly had arrived from somewhere east (even more so if behind the Urals), then they would not have kept a localized creation myth. They would not have even known that there had been glaciers and ice lakes here and that mountains grew out from those ice lake waters.

You either start quoting the works of linguists whose area of expertise are Slavic, Baltic or Finno-Ugric languages publishing on hydronym Moskva irrespective of linguists' ethnicity or nationality or you are making fool of yourself drawing parallels to epic stories from Karelia and Estonia.

[Pure ja]

You either start quoting the works of linguists whose area of expertise are Slavic, Baltic or Finno-Ugric languages publishing on hydronym Moskva irrespective of linguists' ethnicity or nationality or you are making fool of yourself drawing parallels to epic stories from Karelia and Estonia.

I still haven't got any further reasoning besides the -va ending why Toporov considered Mosk+va as baltic.
You better start quoting the works of Toporov or you are making a fool of yourself.

As to the creation myths, that is merely to show that a continuity theory is quite feasible; and that the Velikaya, Koiva and Väina watersheds were once finnic. And that one should not necessarily fixate on the SOURCE of the river Moskva to try to explain the etymology of Mosk+va.

And by inference, if the continuity theory hold up and the Väina and Velikaya (Isso) watersheds were finnic, then also inevitably the watershed crossings near Smolensk had to be finnic. And thus the past origin of Galindians is wide open, just as with latgalians.

[Temujin]

I still haven't got any further reasoning besides the -va ending why Toporov considered Mosk+va as baltic.
You better start quoting the works of Toporov or you are making a fool of yourself.

V.N Toporov. Ancient Moscow in Baltic perspective//Balto-Slavic studies 1981 - Science 1982, pages 3-61 published by the Russian Academy of Sciences.

There are hundreds of Baltic hydronyms on the map around Moskva River. V Toporov provides provided a thorough discussion on Moskva hydronym. (pp 3-61)

http://www.inslav.ru/images/stories/books/BSI1981%281982%29.pdf



As to the creation myths, that is merely to show that a continuity theory is quite feasible; and that the Velikaya, Koiva and Väina watersheds were once finnic. And that one should not necessarily fixate on the SOURCE of the river Moskva to try to explain the etymology of Mosk+va.

You are ridiculous with your 'conitinuity theory' and other 'arguments' such as early Iron age Dyakovo archeological culture in the context of Moskva etymology discussion. Do you even realise this?

[Temujin]

I suspect you don't read your own sources let alone the sources provided by others. I will post relevant paragraphs from Toporov's work.

Whatever the eastern boundary of Baltic hydronyms is selected [in Moscow oblast], the territory of Moscow city is inside the Baltic geographical range. For this reason ancient and early Moscow oblast past is not separable from the Baltic elements on the territory. (p. 6)

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/7997/5m4.png (http://img43.imageshack.us/i/5m4.png/)


On -va suffix in Baltic context (p. 32)

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/6708/xd4x.png (http://img694.imageshack.us/i/xd4x.png/)

[Pure ja]

V.N Toporov. Ancient Moscow in Baltic perspective//Balto-Slavic studies 1981 - Science 1982, pages 3-61 published by the Russian Academy of Sciences.

There are hundreds of Baltic hydronyms on the map around Moskva River. V Toporov provides provided a thorough discussion on Moskva hydronym. (pp 3-61)

http://www.inslav.ru/images/stories/books/BSI1981%281982%29.pdf



Thanks for the reference.
I finally managed to read it through.

And here is my impression:

1. Toporov does not even consider a finnic origin of Mosk+ or Mask+. Thus his work is incomplete, I would say lopsided.

2. Toporov only compares the ending -va with a possible komi origin. I guess he didn't find any more remote (in time and space) finnic tribe in Europe. He should have tried harder and used a saami comparison instead.

3. All the initial talk about many baltic hydronyms and lesser slavic hydronyms and "very few" finnic hydronyms seems to be to give an indirect excuse for 1 (read 1.).

4. He does not connect the Dyakovo culture with (volga) finnic at all. Maybe that connection wasn't that clear when he wrote his work.

5. A really funny note that he is spending quite a lot of space on the possibly heroic origin of Galindi / Goljadi, to the point of comparing Goljadi to the philistine Israeli nemesis Goliath. But he fails to even mention the baltic-finnic epic heroes of Kaali / Kalevi / Kalevin pojat / Kalevipojad / Kalevan / Koluvan - he must have worked hard to omit that. And thus he also fails to mention that those baltic-finnic Kalevipojad are also known to have been merchants traveling the seas and river systems (gee, maybe there could be some connection to the eastern Galindians / Goljadi, are there any rivers or river crossings nearby?). The Kaali / Kalevipojad trademark among baltic-finns goes back at least as far as the Kaali meteorite impact, which happened at least 2500 years back.

6. Some of the possible original forms that Toporov considers as baltic or slavic could in my opinion well be explained by 1:1 correspondence to a finnic (either baltic-finnic or volga finnic) word: Mosk+ava, Mosk+uva, Mask+uva, Mask+ava, Mosk+va. Comment 64 on page 28 even remarks that 'moš+ki' is 'unpureness' in baltic dialects (just as in finnic dialects, but that goes unmentioned).

So, my dear balts (frolic probably isn't one), I would be interested to know how prevalent are the -uva and -ava endings in your dialects? And what does such an ending usually mean in your dialects?

In estonian language those endings are quite common, also at the end of toponyms.
I already gave some examples in previous posts, like Pihkuva (finnish: Pihkova) and Piiskuva (in russian: Pskov).

With -ava there are such estonian toponyms (not all are hydronyms, but some are): as Jõgeva, Keava, Orava, Arava, Aljava, Haljava, Herjava, Karivärava, Õrsava, Nava, Vaidava, Aljava, Rava, Ersava, Sava, Vodava, Salava

With -eva: Päeva, Laeva, Võeva, Jõgeva, Taheva, Kaeva, Kiideva, Maleva, Päädeva, Soeva, Udeva, Vägeva, Vereva, Neeva-Prandi

With -iva: Liiva, Koiva, Kriiva, Griva, Manniva, Liva, Koiva, Kuiva, Leiva, Kõiva+saare

With -ova: Soova, Tetrova, Juudova, Ostrova, Puhkova, Hürova, Kiiova, Kiislova, Kasakova, Küllatova, etc.

There are also toponyms with -uva and -õva.

I will give some meaningful examples using a probably nostratic stem of kat- / kod-/kot-.

koda = cottage, teepee / wigwam
kodu = home
katus = roof
kate = cover
kattus = became covered (by itself or by a phenomenon)
kattis = was covered (by someone)
kae = a defect (cover) that grows on old peoples' eyes, can be operated away / watch and see
katt = a cover of dirt on teeth (possibly caries)
kaatama (finnish) = to fell down
kaduma = to disappear, to vanish (under a cloak / cover)
kaotama = to make disappear, to lose something
kaetama = to put an eye on somebody (to bewitch sb)

So, the following words use -*va:
katva, katteva = of covered
kattava (in finnish) = covering, all-encompassing, comprehensive
kattuva = of becoming covered
kaatuva (finnish) = tipping over, falling down
kaduva = of disappearing

PS. The very south-eastern part of Ugandi county of Estonia was called Talava, by the start of the 13th century it was already connected to Pskov and Latgalian (Polotsk) influence. Talava in estonian language means basically the same as Vadja (Votjak), Vaida and Latt(+gale): it basically means erecting buildings on poles, like the 3 or 4-legged russian (actually finno-ugric) cottage.

[Temujin]

Thanks for the reference. I finally managed to read it through.

Well done! I am sure your review of Toporov's work would have been given much consideration in academic community. Now, read the title of the article if you haven't done so already. The discussion of the hydronym Moskva is in Baltic perspective. Toporov was not discussing Slavic, Finno-Ugric or other origins.

Finno-Ugric origin of the hydronym was discussed by Kuznetsov and other linguists which critisism over the years. There were numerous attempts to discuss Slavic origin of the hydronym. I began the discussion in this topic pointing to 3 different hypothesys: Baltic, Slavic and Finno-Ugric hinting numerous times that you should be citing academic papers, as Moskva received much attention from linguists in the last 200 years. There are excellent summaries of past research on the subject. Instead, you made fool of yourself with your epic myths from far away of Moscow region, continuity theory from all directions, Mordvin connection and early Iron age Dyakovo archeological culture . You couldn't get your head around the geographical locations of various Finno-Ugric settlements to begin with.

[Pure ja]

Well done! I am sure your review of Toporov's work would have been given much consideration in academic community. Now, read the title of the article if you haven't done so already. The discussion of the hydronym Moskva is in Baltic perspective. Toporov was not discussing Slavic, Finno-Ugric or other origins.


And you still continue to fail to understand the baltic perspective is impossible without also considering the finno-ugric perspective.




Finno-Ugric origin of the hydronym was discussed by Kuznetsov and other linguists which critisism over the years.


Any easily readable material on that?
Is that similarly lopsided to another side?
Or is there somewhere a comprehensive comparative analysis as well?




There were numerous attempts to discuss Slavic origin of the hydronym. I began the discussion in this topic pointing to 3 different hypothesys: Baltic, Slavic and Finno-Ugric hinting numerous times that you should be citing academic papers, as Moskva received much attention from linguists in the last 200 years. There are excellent summaries of past research on the subject.


Great.
Which are those excellent extensive summaries?




Instead, you made fool of yourself with your epic myths from far away of Moscow region


Velikaya, Pskov and Kaali are much closer to reality than philistine Goliath. And much more relevant as well.




...Mordvin connection and early Iron age Dyakovo archeological culture . You couldn't get your head around the geographical locations of various Finno-Ugric settlements to begin with.

That is just your narrow-minded opinion. It is you who has problems accepting the finnic origin of Dyakovo.
And you still refuse to accept the opverlap of baltic and finnic influence areas, even when Toporov did not deny the overlap.

[Temujin]

And you still continue to fail to understand the baltic perspective is impossible without also considering the finno-ugric perspective.

I realise the slow nature of your kind, but I didn't expect you to be that slow. I am patient. I know you will be able to absorb the information presented to you given enough time.



Any easily readable material on that?
Is that similarly lopsided to another side?
Or is there somewhere a comprehensive comparative analysis as well?

No decent publisher will publish the article unless it's credible. The work will not receive much consideration from academic community unless it's comprehensive. Isn't that obvious?


Great.
Which are those excellent extensive summaries?

I gave you some tips in which direction to search, you do your own little research.



That is just your narrow-minded opinion. It is you who has problems accepting the finnic origin of Dyakovo.
And you still refuse to accept the opverlap of baltic and finnic influence areas, even when Toporov did not deny the overlap.

It's not my narrow-minded opinion, it's you being unenlightened and self-indulgent.

It's evident from toponyms and hydronyms Finno-Ugric influence during the settlement of Moscow oblast by Slavs was virtually non-existent except for the eastern and north-eastern parts of Moscow oblast which is mentioned numerous times by me, the author from Finland in the article you cited above, and Toporov in his article.

Until you absorb established facts about geographic locations in which different tribes settled, the distribution of hydronyms and toponyms in Moscow oblast familiarising yourself with the works and reviews of linguists on the subject, there will be little progress on your part.

[Temujin]

-ava/-uva are IE endings. Not sure how it works in Finnic languages and what are their orgin though. Anyhow, thye are not Uralic in Baltic languages.



Information taken from Lietuvos senosios valstybės 40 svarbiausių mįslių by Z. Zinkevičius. p. 121

See discussion here for more info.
(http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/39714-Truth-about-the-origin-of-the-Goths/page18)

The etymology of Moskva is either Slavic or Baltic.

The term 'mozg/mosk' exists in Russian meaning 'wet or moist'. There is a saying in Russian "pro-mozg-laya pogoda" - wet weather. Or 'pro-mozg do kostei' - wet to the bones.

There is a river in Poland called Mozgawa.
Mazgoti is Lithuanian word to wash
Mazgāt is Latvian word to wash.
-va is a IE suffix.

There are numerous hydronyms ending on "-va" found on the banks of Dniepr River in eastern Belarus such as Ded-va, Drez-va, Tit-va and others.

Baltic hypothesis received a lot of support because the region of Moskva oblast through which Moskva river flows has around 300 known Baltic hydronyms, 60 of which are inflows of Moskva river. The linguistic analysis of 'Mosk-va' fits both Slavic and Baltic etymology of the word.

The Finno-Ugric hypothesis presented by Kuznetsov has serious flaws and it’s obsolete now.

After reading your signature I am convinced the proponent of epic myths found 500-1000 km from Moskva river is a funny person.

[Thelema]

I was there two weeks ago, quite nice place.

[Pure ja]

-ava/-uva are IE endings. Not sure how it works in Finnic languages and what are their orgin though. Anyhow, thye are not Uralic in Baltic languages.



Information taken from Lietuvos senosios valstybės 40 svarbiausių mįslių by Z. Zinkevičius. p. 121

See discussion here for more info.
(http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/39714-Truth-about-the-origin-of-the-Goths/page18)

Thanks, but I was more interested in the meanings.
I was aware that such endings were frequent at least in slavic languages.
I am interested in the possible meanings. Does not have to be a comprehensive list (mine wasn't), just to give a feel.

[Pure ja]

I realise the slow nature of your kind, but I didn't expect you to be that slow. I am patient. I know you will be able to absorb the information presented to you given enough time.


I am taking back my original claim that Moskva is for certain a finno-ugric toponym.
Are you happy now?




No decent publisher will publish the article unless it's credible. The work will not receive much consideration from academic community unless it's comprehensive. Isn't that obvious?


I disagree. Sometimes also useful, but problematic articles get published, if that advances scientific discussion.
But from the scientific perspective, it is a serious failure on Toporov's part how he handles the third party - finno-ugrians.

Let me try to put it as simply as possible for you to comprehend.
If one assumes that the baltic cultural area of influence expands at the expense of the finno-ugric cultural area, then it immediately follows that the area of influence of finno-ugrians recedes. And the expanding and receding areas form an overlap. Do you get it? If there is an expanding area, there also has to be a receding area. No receding area, no expanding area. An overlap might exist also in case of mutual influence, without expansion / recession. That means that there almost never is a clear-cut border - and one cannot possibly set a clear cut border as Toporov did.

Now, if we assume that an expansion has taken place, then we also have to consider that the expansion has been going on for some time, and the recession as well. That means that there is a growing risk that once finno-ugric toponyms (of the receding party) get falsely identified as baltic (expanding party). If one toponym is explainable by an expanding cultural sphere, then it does not automatically follow that one can drop the investigation from the receding perspective. And from that it follows that the possible origin of all contentious toponyms has to be held semi-open until the very final comprehensive assessment. Toporov clearly hasn't done that. Also, Toporov's claimed 300 or 400 or even thousands of hydronyms at least partly were based on a rather old work from the 1920s, if I remember correctly. Such an old source can certainly contain mistakes.

Let me explain it in yet another way: why do we bother to look into the possible baltic origin around the Moscow region at all, if we "already know" that it was russian, since russian ultimately prevailed. Why would one even look into seto or estonian or other finnic origin of Pskov, if we "already know" that it "was" baltic or russian, "for sure". That is what Toporov essentially did with the Moscow region. And that is not a comprehensive approach. Do you comprehend?



It's evident from toponyms and hydronyms Finno-Ugric influence during the settlement of Moscow oblast by Slavs was virtually non-existent except for the eastern and north-eastern parts of Moscow oblast which is mentioned numerous times by me, the author from Finland in the article you cited above, and Toporov in his article.


The maps from those sources show otherwise.

[Pure ja]

I realise the slow nature of your kind, but I didn't expect you to be that slow. I am patient. I know you will be able to absorb the information presented to you given enough time.


I am taking back my original claim that Moskva is for certain a finno-ugric toponym.
Are you happy now?




No decent publisher will publish the article unless it's credible. The work will not receive much consideration from academic community unless it's comprehensive. Isn't that obvious?


I disagree. Sometimes also useful, but problematic articles get published, if that advances scientific discussion.
But from the scientific perspective, it is a serious failure on Toporov's part how he handles the third party - finno-ugrians.

Let me try to put it as simply as possible for you to comprehend.
If one assumes that the baltic cultural area of influence expands at the expense of the finno-ugric cultural area, then it immediately follows that the area of influence of finno-ugrians recedes. And the expanding and receding areas form an overlap. Do you get it? If there is an expanding area, there also has to be a receding area. No receding area, no expanding area. An overlap might exist also in case of mutual influence, without expansion / recession. That means that there almost never is a clear-cut border - and one cannot possibly set a clear cut border as Toporov did.

Now, if we assume that an expansion has taken place, then we also have to consider that the expansion has been going on for some time, and the recession as well. That means that there is a growing risk that once finno-ugric toponyms (of the receding party) get falsely identified as baltic (expanding party). If one toponym is explainable by an expanding cultural sphere, then it does not automatically follow that one can drop the investigation from the receding perspective. And from that it follows that the possible origin of all contentious toponyms has to be held semi-open until the very final comprehensive assessment. Toporov clearly hasn't done that. Also, Toporov's claimed 300 or 400 or even thousands of hydronyms at least partly were based on a rather old work from the 1920s, if I remember correctly. Such an old source can certainly contain mistakes.

Let me explain it in yet another way: why do we bother to look into the possible baltic origin around the Moscow region at all, if we "already know" that it was russian, since russian ultimately prevailed. Why would one even look into seto or estonian or other finnic origin of Pskov, if we "already know" that it "was" baltic or russian, "for sure". That is what Toporov essentially did with the Moscow region. And that is not a comprehensive approach. Do you comprehend?



It's evident from toponyms and hydronyms Finno-Ugric influence during the settlement of Moscow oblast by Slavs was virtually non-existent except for the eastern and north-eastern parts of Moscow oblast which is mentioned numerous times by me, the author from Finland in the article you cited above, and Toporov in his article.


The maps from those sources show otherwise.

[Pure ja]

Let's chill with Tõnu Trubetsky, Podmoskovnaja vechera:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uBz2Xn4OjM

Tõnu has a polish surname, but I have read from somewhere that he is N1c, just as Rjurik.

[Thelema]

I live in North West, very closer to Finland and there are many Finno-Ugric toponyms. Some Finno-Ugric people live here - Karelians, Pomors...

[Jonik]

As an introduction of the small part of Latvia:

http://goo.gl/maps/Dpznc
http://image-upload.de/image/FgqVQR/a95c6310d7.jpg http://image-upload.de/image/bwxdtX/002e657467.jpg

[Eamr]

Small but beautiful country.

[Joso]

Small but beautiful country.

+1

[Eamr]

Why do you want to ruin my thread about Latvia?? :mad: I am Latvian and i feel Latvian and i total love my country! You know, i cant help that me and my family cant life in Latvia right now but i have the plan to move home later in a better situation!

Have you moved back to Latvia in the end?

[Finnish Swede]

Have been in Riga and Jurmala :).

(Sad that Livonians as a ethnic and their language ... both are basically dead).

[Harkonnen]

Have you moved back to Latvia in the end?

Oh dear..

[Lightshade25]

Have you moved back to Latvia in the end?

I think this is the girl that committed suicide.

[Loxie]

Have been in Riga and Jurmala :).

(Sad that Livonians as a ethnic and their language ... both are basically dead).

We are the descendants of livonians, we just forgot the language.

[Dandelion]

Latvian is basically Baltic with a Finnic substratum.

[Marmara]

Have you moved back to Latvia in the end?

Sockpuppet.

[Harkonnen]

Let the goddamn dead be. WHO gives a fuck.

[Finnish Swede]

We are the descendants of livonians, we just forgot the language.

Not all of you ... if I have understood correctly? Livonians lived in coast area between Latvians and Estonians, or?

[Eamr]

Oh dear... her spirit is probably shaking her head if she can see how has this forum evolved.

[Harkonnen]

Not all of you ... if I have understood correctly? Livonians lived in coast area between Latvians and Estonians, or?

Literally NO ONE gives a shit about Livonians.

[Finnish Swede]

Literally NO ONE gives a shit about Livonians.

Well...maybe you should? LOL.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RVgnXxr4c0

[Dandelion]

Latvians are slightly more extravagant than Estonians, but less so than Lithuanians. Still different from Estonians and there's a divide between them mentality-wise and of course a linguistic one.

[Eamr]

Livonians should be reactivated.

[Dandelion]

Livonians should be reactivated.

Interesting experiment. Would Livonian-speakers develop a more orderly and correct Finnic mentality as opposed to a more capricious Baltic one? Estonians are more correct and productive than their Baltic neighbours, is that a coincidence?

Latvians however are very self-reflective. They only blame themselves whenever things don't go their way instead of blaming others.

[Harkonnen]

Well...maybe you should? LOL.



I am not interested in anykind of neverending debates where the eternal rainwashed one-hundred-faced-monolith fished from the Black and disgusting Waters of the primal swamp becomes a fish and the fish becomes a bear and the bear becomes a caribou like it was sucked in some evil vortex from the moment it was conceived



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAekyLCSmkM

[Loxie]

Not all of you ... if I have understood correctly? Livonians lived in coast area between Latvians and Estonians, or?
Why not? Latvia is a small country, everyone is mixed with everyone. Some people aren't even aware their surnames are livonian.

[Loxie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAekyLCSmkM

Those are latvians singing, nobody is a native livonian speaker anymore.

[Harkonnen]

Those are latvians singing, nobody is a native livonian speaker anymore.

Well yeah. Never claimed anything else.

[Harkonnen]

Interesting experiment. Would Livonian-speakers develop a more orderly and correct Finnic mentality as opposed to a more capricious Baltic one? Estonians are more correct and productive than their Baltic neighbours, is that a coincidence?

Latvians however are very self-reflective. They only blame themselves whenever things don't go their way instead of blaming others.

Savoanism would plunge them into barbarity

http://media.riemurasia.net/albumit/mmedia/5u/0u4/ytup/469818/1006230340.gif

[Harkonnen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIhCSAQQ-cI

[Satem]

Angel cave near Mazsalaca
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Salisburg_Engelsh%C3%B6hle_im_Park_von_Mazsalaca%2 C_Lettland.jpg

[Satem]

Interesting fact Latvia share city with Estonia. Latvian part is called Valka and Estonian is called Valga. When both countries joined the Schengen visa-free travel zone, Riga and Raja Street border post was officially opened.
https://roadtriproject.eu/files/uploads/2018/12/fb-cross-border-valga-valka-1.jpg

[Finnish Swede]

Interesting fact Latvia share city with Estonia. Latvian part is called Valka and Estonian is called Valga. When both countries joined the Schengen visa-free travel zone, Riga and Raja Street border post was officially opened.
https://roadtriproject.eu/files/uploads/2018/12/fb-cross-border-valga-valka-1.jpg

LOL. They have created huge alcohol shop in ex.custom office/building.

[Satem]

Turaida Castle

https://i.imgur.com/S6gsN7d.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/CQnaVJF.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/0CWO2AI.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/H3HQ3At.jpg

[Ice]

Looks nice. Latvia(riga) will become my next destination after Budapest.

[Satem]

Rundāle Palace

https://i.imgur.com/CKZAi35.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/1w6MtPE.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/NbsdgLV.jpg

[Satem]

Karosta prison in Riga used to be Nazi prison now it's hotel


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmpNa-oGHVc

[Satem]

Skrunda-1 was small Soviet city with radar station in this area. In the 90s all habitants had to leave this place and it came ghost town. Recently the are is closed for visitors.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZUwIB0-kg0

[Satem]

A short video about Ventspils


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKPQayeGpfE

[Satem]

Some video about Rēzekne in eastern Latvia


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2fnEk8eV4k

In 2013 there was opened a multifunctional culture centre "Gors", many cultural events happen there.
For example "Seven Hills" festival(festival probably has this name because city is located on 7 hills)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MnRD6Hiz5g

[The Lawspeaker]

Latvia's national carrier:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buzmLwaUqxE

What could be better than a flight on a Business Class flight on a classic airliner?! Well, I recently flew in Air Baltic BUSINESS CLASS on one of Air Baltic's Boeing 737-500's (YL-BBD)! The Air Baltic Business Class flight was from Minsk (MSQ) to Riga (RIX). This Air Baltic Business Class experience was exceptional. Watch this video to see what made the trip so special. And there was a lot! Not only was the aircraft great, but the food and the crew were spectacular! Along the way, this flight report will include information about the Air Baltic Business Class seats, the Air Baltic Business Class inflight entertainment (or lack of it), the Air Baltic Business Class food, and the Air Baltic Business Class cabin crew from this Air Baltic Business class flight! You can even watch the Air Baltic Boeing 737 take-off and land! What do you think of Air Baltic Business Class? Let me know in the comments!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oZJV67iojY

-- FLIGHT INFORMATION ---
Airline: Air Baltic
Aircraft: Boeing 737-300 / Boeing 737-500
Registration: YL-BBJ / YL-BBD
Flight Time: 0h 50min / 2h 00min Seat: 3A / 1A
From: Tallinn Ulemsite
Via: Riga International
To: Vienna Schwechat
Date: April 2018 ---
EQUIPMENT INFORMATION --- Cameras used: Canon G7X Mark II Additional equipment: none

[Satem]

Once in a few years in Latvia when the signs are just right and the river Daugava can't handle spring's meltwater the floodplains of river Dviete fill up and turn into a paradise for birds and adventure seekers. Many use this rare opportunity to jump into their kayaks and paddle through forests and fields that are otherwise occupied by wild horses and taurine cattle.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB3Bo1bsJ1o

[Satem]

Liepāja tram route

https://i.imgur.com/jeJD2X2.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/a2vJwom.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK1Z43ZldV8

[Satem]

If you want to know how to talk about love in Latvian, here you can find some basic phrases


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZ1ipjbKbpU

[Ülev]

If you want to know how to talk about love in Latvian, here you can find some basic phrases


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZ1ipjbKbpU

is that your sister by any chance? you both look similiar

[Satem]

is that your sister by any chance? you both look similiar

Of course not

[Ülev]

https://youtu.be/agGcLvxiWkM

[Ülev]

https://youtu.be/bXjsu3AbZqg


https://youtu.be/WYkvF30tSIg

[Satem]

Līgo - latvian celebration of summer solstice takes part each year at 23/24 June. It is very important day, Latvians even have day off during Līgo. As in most of summer solstice celebration all over the Europe it's mostly fire, dance, food and alcohol, of course because of Corona this Līgo will look a bit different.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-YrR0gLpBU

[The Lawspeaker]

How a secret German unit held off the Reds:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM0mHnEzOG4

[Satem]

Peat is one of the largest natural wealth in Latvia.
The total area of the Latvian bog is 6401 km2 or 9.9% of the country’s territory. Most peat reserves are concentrated in the eastern and central parts of Latvia. From the total area of bogs, 49.3% are low bogs(green on the map below), 41.7% are high(red on the map below) and 9% – transitional bogs(blue and yellow on the map below).

http://www.latvijaskudra.lv/upload/faq/purvu_karte.jpg

Peat extracted in Latvia is used worldwide – 95% of Latvian peat is exported and last year export amounted to 176 million euros. In total, Latvia’s peat deposits contain 1.5 billion tons of peat. In the marshes where peat extraction is taking place as of January 1, 2020, the amount of peat was 145.5 million tons.

Here is example of how peat is harvested


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgA7wLLMg3s

[Ülev]

https://youtu.be/qdMdcVovEsY


https://youtu.be/22VcR8h68ZY

[The Lawspeaker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZCsTUP6-A8

On VE-Day 1945 and beyond, the German Air Force launched a desperate rescue mission to evacuate German wounded and troops from the Courland Pocket in Latvia, where German forces had been cut off by the Soviet advance. Using whatever aircraft were still available, the mission ended in tragedy and destruction.

Credits: YouTube Creative Commons; WikiCommons; Google Commons; Mark Felton Productions; Kurland Militaria; Google Maps. Sources: 'The Courland Evacuation' by Andrew Arthy (Air War Publications, 2017); 'The German Evacuation of Kurland and East Prussia' by Andrew Knighton (War History Online, 27 September 2017); 'Operation Hannibal 1945' by History Extra (BBC, 20 February 2020); 'Last American Aerial Victory in Europe' by Christopher Moore (Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum, 8 May 2020). Thumbnail: Aldo Bidini.

[Satem]

The most intersting fact I found this autumn
Latvia used to have the world's most northerly commercial, open-air vineyard held the Guinness World Record as the located in the village of Sabile. It is located in around the 57 parallel.

https://i.imgur.com/NCIfnAs.png

It changed in 2008 when there was established more northernly localed vineyard.

New vines are regularly being added to the existing ones, there are approximately 30 different varieties of vines and about 800 plants there. The majority of varieties have been created by the famous Latvian plant breeder Pauls Sukatnieks. The variety named “Zilga” is the most popular. You can even find such exotic plants as peaches, apricots and walnuts in the Wine Hill. It seems there is very appealing microclimate.

http://www.visit.sabile.lv/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Sabiles-Vina-kalns-13.jpg

Sabile Wine Hill has been formed twice: first in the German time (14th – 16th century) and after that it was completely restored in the period of Free State of Latvia in 1936.
Unfortunatelly you can't buy vine from there as it's property of local government and they can't sell alcohol. The only way to try it visiting their vine festival which was held since 1999 at last weekend of July in honour to town's symbol(probably now it won't be organized, you know why). The festival is also celebration of city so there's lots of fun at that time.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRfyjGlHbhs

[The Lawspeaker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH5fkxdIHnI

Latvia , Riga
Filming date: 2020 February 24-26th

[Ülev]

https://youtu.be/0KCmYD2yKwk

[Ülev]

new trams in Liepāja, Latvia !!!
from Croatia

https://youtu.be/nNBfg7VBvHY


https://youtu.be/OB5wpkCQ7Dw


https://youtu.be/yUTC-tULsAc

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liep%C4%81jas_tramvajs

[Ülev]

https://youtu.be/so6mi7Iu6MU

edit: and in the Summer


https://youtu.be/_uHI-7y1bpo

[Ülev]

https://youtu.be/GO_4Ll67XYo

edit: more recent one:


https://youtu.be/tkyuhw6bA8w

[Your Old Comrade]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbClcGhQf6A

In this video we will be taking a trip on the Riga suburban railway on the Tukmus line as far as Lielupe station close to the beaches at Jurmala. Come along as i explore these classic RVR Rigas Vagonbuves Repnica ER2 electric units on a suburban train bound for Sloka station on a early april morning. The train is operated by Pasažieru vilciens which is the passenger train operator on the latvian railway network.

[ugochaves]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbClcGhQf6A
Will Latvia join the new EU?

[ugochaves]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH5fkxdIHnI
Listen to what "your old comrade" writes! The scoundrel! You have no right to post this on the forum!

[ugochaves]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbClcGhQf6A
We need to complain about The Lawspeaker. He's descriding Latvia, the scoundrel!

[Katarzyna]

Greetings from Latvia. We are blessed with good food :)

https://i.ibb.co/XyFVj29/IMG-2335.jpg (https://ibb.co/N1W7tVX)