Do you consider the Anatolian/Caucasian component European?

[bluesky]

Do you consider the Anatolian/Caucasian component European?

[brunette]

Depends what you mean, genetically Neolithics are European.

[Mortimer]

Depends what you mean, genetically Neolithics are European.

how they are european when they are middle eastern? just because europeans are mixed with it

[Midori]

Anatolian Greeks are European, the others are not.

[brunette]

how they are european when they are middle eastern? just because europeans are mixed with it

Don't be so fucking stupid Neolithics are Near Eastern that's where Europeans evolved from.

[Sikeliot]

No because Anatolia and the Caucasus are not within Europe.

[brunette]

Some of it is.

[brunette]

Some of it is and anyway it's within the Near Eastern borders not the Middle East. Does he mean geographically or genetically.

[Walter Overdick]

West Asian component is what makes many "so called" pure Europeans look like Turks or Arabs. So no, it's present in Europe but it can't be used to define how European is a person.

[Sikeliot]

West Asian component is what makes many "so called" pure Europeans look like Turks or Arabs. So no, it's present in Europe but it can't be used to define how European is a person.

There are no Europeans that look Arab.

[Walter Overdick]

There are no Europeans that look Arab.

I did not mean exactly Saudi Arabs but Levantines, Assyrians and other semitic peoples related to Arabs.

[brunette]

Lol you'd be surprised what some of them say.

[brunette]

I did not mean exactly Saudi Arabs but Levantines, Assyrians and other semitic peoples related to Arabs.

The levant is one of the most mixed populated parts of Asia. Saying the Levant is a race is like saying Americans are,

[Sikeliot]

I did not mean exactly Saudi Arabs but Levantines, Assyrians and other semitic peoples related to Arabs.

And who would you think looks like them? If you're thinking Portuguese, some of us can be North African Berber but not so much West Asian.

[Walter Overdick]

And who would you think looks like them? If you're thinking Portuguese, some of us can be North African Berber but not so much West Asian.

I'm thinking Italians, Greeks, Bulgarians, Macedonians without much slavic influence and stuff like that where West Asian component is high.

[Sikeliot]

I'm thinking Italians, Greeks, Bulgarians, Macedonians without much slavic influence and stuff like that where West Asian component is high.

Get ready for them to yell at you :lol:

[Walter Overdick]

Get ready for them to yell at you :lol:

I'm just being objetive. Those populations have all high West Asian component, which obviously creates a consequence in their phenotypes.

[Sikeliot]

I always grew up seeing Levantine people as "European" looking because I'd grown up with enough Italian Americans (of southern descent) and have been to Greek festivals in my area every summer, so it was not much of a jump.

[Walter Overdick]

I always grew up seeing Levantine people as "European" looking because I'd grown up with enough Italian Americans (of southern descent) and have been to Greek festivals in my area every summer, so it was not much of a jump.

Compared to more Western Europeans who could be similar in pigmentation such as Southern French, Spaniards, Portuguese, Basques, they do not look "European" at all.

[The Exiled King]

The Caucasian/Anatolian component is and can be European but it is not Indo-European. It is European in the terms of the continent that is and how most of that component got there in the Neolithic. But it's not Indo-European.

[brunette]

I always grew up seeing Levantine people as "European" looking because I'd grown up with enough Italian Americans (of southern descent) and have been to Greek festivals in my area every summer, so it was not much of a jump.

That's not true because not all West Asians will have ancestry from Southern or South Eastern Europe. All Southern Europeans are the same but not all West Asians are.

[Insuperable]

West Asian component is what makes many "so called" pure Europeans look like Turks or Arabs. So no, it's present in Europe but it can't be used to define how European is a person.

Turks look Turkish not becausae of west asian component but because of south asian, east asian and southwest asian component.
For example georgians have the highest west asian component and they look ok to me, at least much better than Turks.
So if these pure European look like Turks to you it could be because of an another reason

[Albion]

I picked yes and no. Some ethnicities are Europeans, others not. All South Caucasians are (Georgians et al.) as well as Armenians.
The North Caucasians are also Europeans even if they are Muslims. We already have Europeans like that sadly.
Pontic Greeks are European as well, but most live in Greece now anyway.

Azeris aren't European, they're Middle Eastern and Turks are somewhere between Middle Easterners and Europeans. Some are very European looking, others very Middle Eastern in appearance.


No because Anatolia and the Caucasus are not within Europe.

Everyone knows the borders of Europe are political / religious. If Turkey were Christian then no doubt Europe would extend to right to Azerbaijan.
Ethnicities and genetics don't just neatly stop at borders.


The Caucasian/Anatolian component is and can be European but it is not Indo-European. It is European in the terms of the continent that is and how most of that component got there in the Neolithic. But it's not Indo-European.

West Asians are another European type in my opinion. In their purer forms they have a distinctive look but are Europeans nevertheless.

In Europe the "West Asian" input was mainly neolithic as you say. Something else of interest from the Caucasus is the G2a haplogroup, it's found throughout Europe in low numbers but more common in Sardinia, Italy, the Alps and Southern European uplands. It could also have been brought to Europe with Alans in some areas.

"West Asian" refers only to geography, the region where it is highest us usually classified as part of Asia. Like I said though, the boundaries of Europe are largely political / religious concepts and "West Asian" is really more like "Caucasian European" or "Peripheral European".

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/4255/86089235.png

[Damião de Góis]

I don't consider it european. A part of europe's genetic past maybe, but not european. It's not strong in any european nation apart form Georgians, Armenians, etc if they are considered as such.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadGQ4N2Yta2dqRGo5WV9PYzgwT0llO EE&authkey=CIee9KwK&hl=en&authkey=CIee9KwK#gid=0

[Mortimer]

Don't be so fucking stupid Neolithics are Near Eastern that's where Europeans evolved from.

They didnt evolved from them, they are partially mixed with the component, but the component is not European.

[Mortimer]

West Asians are another European type in my opinion. In their purer forms they have a distinctive look but are Europeans nevertheless.


thats the point, west asians cluster close to europeans but they do have a distintictive look, they are not europeans.

[Sikeliot]

The West Asian component is only largely present in Neolithic heavy areas of Europe.. it is present in most Europeans to some degree but is not an integral part of ALL Europeans' genomes.

[Pallantides]

I only consider the North European component to be European

[~Elizabeth~]

I voted Yes of course

[Prince Carlo]

Anatolian/Caucasian component is white but not European.

[sydvice2]

i dont know what is anatolikan element i need example

[Loki]

The question should be rephrased:

Do you consider Europe within the Anatolian/Caucasian component? The answer to that would be yes.

More:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47331

Also check Göbekli Tepe (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=854044&postcount=21) in Turkey - the grandfather culture of most of what is civilized in the world.

[Albion]

The West Asian component is only largely present in Neolithic heavy areas of Europe..

The Balkans and Mediterranean are hardly insignificant areas.


it is present in most Europeans to some degree but is not an integral part of ALL Europeans' genomes.

You could say the same about the others. There's not much Eastern European admixture in Britain yet nobody is saying the Slavs or Brits are any less European.


I only consider the North European component to be European

Rubbish. If it were up-to you there'd be around 30 million Europeans. ;)


Anatolian/Caucasian component is white but not European.

How does that work? White / European are the same thing, Caucasian as a racial term can be applied to non-white / European Caucasians.

[Kanuni]

I agree with Pallantides only the NorthEuro component is truly European.

[bluesky]

I'm thinking Italians, Greeks, Bulgarians, Macedonians without much slavic influence and stuff like that where West Asian component is high.

Please why do you pick Bulgarians and Macedonian?! I think you are blind that is like not seeing the diffrences between a chinese and a south african......:coffee:

And by the way many Bulgarians has a low West asian component please look for yourself on the spreedsheat...

[Europa]

No because Anatolia and the Caucasus are not within Europe.

Here is your answer:coffee: if you are asking about geographic 'component'?
And yes,if you're talking about Anthropology?

[Europa]

I agree with Pallantides only the NorthEuro component is truly European.

'But of course'...:wink:coffee:

[Saruman]

I agree with Pallantides only the NorthEuro component is truly European.


I only consider the North European component to be European

What is the genetic distance between Mediterranid component and Northern European component? As opposed to Caucasus component? I say this because for example some S.Slavs on dodecad have Nordic component at 50 % +, while the Med component + WestAsian and even slight SW Asian which combined amount to a level somewhat below that of Nordic, yet on 23andme they come out closer to Nordic, so the woggisation effect of Sardinian and Caucasus components is approximately same at least!! Otherwise for ex. 23 % WestAsian should have pushed the individual closer to South overall, but it didn't.

So although for ex. if Med is counted as Euro, Iberians would be more European than Serbs but if it's about closeness to Nordics which has to be a true measure of genetical Europeanness than Serbs would be more European.

[Mordid]

What is the genetic distance between Mediterranid component and Northern European component? As opposed to Caucasus component? I say this because for example some S.Slavs on dodecad have Nordic component at 50 % +, while the Med component + WestAsian and even slight SW Asian which combined amount to a level somewhat below that of Nordic, yet on 23andme they come out closer to Nordic, so the woggisation effect of Sardinian and Caucasus components is approximately same at least!! Otherwise for ex. 23 % WestAsian should have pushed the individual closer to South overall, but it didn't.

So although for ex. if Med is counted as Euro, Iberians would be more European than Serbs but if it's about closeness to Nordics which has to be a true measure of genetical Europeanness than Serbs would be more European.
relax sarmo, balkan slavs are more euro than iberians due to their higher percent of northern european component.

[Yaroslav]

Yes

[Padre Organtino]

Nope. If you count it as Euro you'll get plenty of new "brothers".

[Dacul]

I do not understand why germanic nations thinks they are more "european" than eastern european nations,since R1B came later in Europe than E-V13 and G and R1A.While I was in Europe from lots of time.
Is not like thraco-daco-ilyrians invaded germanic nations,but in fact germanic nations invaded South Eastern Europe,since they were migrating and passed over the teritory of South Eastern Europe also.

[Anthropologique]

how they are european when they are middle eastern? just because europeans are mixed with it

No, they are West Asian.

[Hess]

If we don't, we would have to deal with the inconvenient fact that Greeks and South Italians are 35-40% Non-European.

If we see Europeans as a race and the West Asian component as foreign to Europe, then we would have to consider the Greeks, South Italians, and some other Europeans to be "mixed race."

To avoid all this unpleasantness, I think we should just consider the West Asian component as European and leave it at that.

[Padre Organtino]

To avoid all this unpleasantness, I think we should just consider the West Asian component as European and leave it at that.

Lol, so I am European now? And you'd make not only Georgians but also Kurds, Turks and many other folks genetically Euro this way. Not really a good idea, IMO.

[Hess]

Lol, so I am European now? And you'd make not only Georgians but also Kurds, Turks and many other folks genetically Euro this way. Not really a good idea, IMO.

I see Georgians/Armenians as peripheral Europeans- part of Western Civilization but not necessarily European in the classical sense of the word.

As for Kurds, Turks, Azeris, etc- they are not part of Europe at all because of their foreign culture, mentality, religion, and behavior.

[Dacul]

Georgians are for sure europeans .

[Hess]

Georgians are for sure europeans .

But not Armenians? I am asking because they score almost identically on all the genetic tests and have a relatively similar culture (Padre can correct me on this)

[Anthropologique]

Lol, so I am European now? And you'd make not only Georgians but also Kurds, Turks and many other folks genetically Euro this way. Not really a good idea, IMO.

Georgians seem a lot closer physically to Euros than other West Asians.

[Sikeliot]

If we don't, we would have to deal with the inconvenient fact that Greeks and South Italians are 35-40% Non-European.

Well, it's kind of a "which is worse" situation.. considering Greeks and South Italians non-European because of their West Asian component? Or considering Levantines, Kurds, Iranians, Turks, Armenians, Assyrians, Mizhrahi Jews as European if we count West Asian (which is their largest component) as European?

[Sikeliot]

Georgians seem a lot closer physically to Euros than other West Asians.

I never used to think they looked any different than other West Asians, but now that I have seen more pictures, I agree.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Anatolian Greeks are European, the others are not.

How? :confused: The only thing that make the mentioned Anatolians Greek is their religion. If Anatolians convert to Orthodoxy to become Greek will they also earn the right to be considered European? :D

[Hess]

Well, it's kind of a "which is worse" situation.. considering Greeks and South Italians non-European because of their West Asian component? Or considering Levantines, Kurds, Iranians, Turks, Armenians, Assyrians, Mizhrahi Jews as European if we count West Asian (which is their largest component) as European?

Counting Greeks as Non-Europeans when Greece is the birthplace of Europe is beyond madness.


But the way I see it, this doesn't have to be a "which is worse" situation. All the groups above can be considered Non-European not because of their genetics, but because of their culture, mentality, religion, behavior, etc.

This way we all win- Greeks and South Italians are European and all the other West Asian countries aren't.

[Sikeliot]

Counting Greeks as Non-Europeans when Greece is the birthplace of Europe is beyond madness.


But the way I see it, this doesn't have to be a "which is worse" situation. All the groups above can be considered Non-European not because of their genetics, but because of their culture, mentality, religion, behavior, etc.

This way we all win- Greeks and South Italians are European and all the other West Asian countries aren't.

Well I usually think that religion, culture, and geographic location matter most anyway so that would make all Greeks and all Italians European and their genetics are a whole other matter.. doesn't matter where the people came from originally, since now they are full-fledged Europeans.

[Hess]

since now they are now full-fledged Europeans.

Because Greeks were the first and original Europeans/Westerners, you could actually make the argument that more Greek you look, the more European you are.

Hess- 1
Nordicists- 0
:cool:

[Sikeliot]

Because Greeks were the first and original Europeans/Westerners, you could actually make the argument that more Greek you look, the more European you are.

Hess- 1
Nordicists- 0
:cool:

Well I do always say that whatever Greeks and Italians are is the standard by which we should measure Europeanness. Their genetics may be more West Asian than average for Europe but it's their culture and foundation that built up and civilized the rest of Europe that counts.

[bluesky]

I see Georgians/Armenians as peripheral Europeans- part of Western Civilization but not necessarily European in the classical sense of the word.

As for Kurds, Turks, Azeris, etc- they are not part of Europe at all because of their foreign culture, mentality, religion, and behavior.

Georgians are white as European white but to me only some Armenians too because they are somehow diffrent , but anyway excluding Turks is stupid since they are the most European West asians even Kurds and Lebanese people are slight more european than Georgians Lebanese people is the second most European

Here compare(K12b spreedsheat):

nr1. Turks: Atlantic_Med 13.2% North European 9.6% Caucasus 46.4% = totally 22.7% European

nr2. Lebanese: Atlantic_Med 11.8% North European 3.7% Caucasus 41.3% = totally 15.5% European

nr3. Armenians: Atlantic_Med 9.8% North European 4.5% Caucasus 59.8% = totally 14.3% European

nr4. Kurds: Atlantic_Med 6.3% North European 6.7% Caucasus 42.2% = totally 13% European

nr5. Georgians: Atlantic_Med 0% North European 9% Caucasus 73.9% = totally 9%
European

[Onur]

How? :confused: The only thing that make the mentioned Anatolians Greek is their religion. If Anatolians convert to Orthodoxy to become Greek will they also earn the right to be considered European? :D
Also i can add the fact that the half of the one million Anatolian christians who gone to Greece in 1923 was speaking pure Turkish as a mothertongue for at least 1000 years. This is a proven fact even mentioned by some Greek scholars.

They were organizing their orthodox liturgy in Turkish and reading Turkish bibles issued by the Istanbul patriarchy. Also their Turkish origin is mentioned in the Byzantine chronicles dated as early as 13th century to the western European travelers to Anatolia in 16-20th century.

So, these Turkish speaking christians in Anatolia any different from us just because they were hellenized lass than a century ago?



Counting Greeks as Non-Europeans when Greece is the birthplace of Europe is beyond madness.

Well I do always say that whatever Greeks and Italians are is the standard by which we should measure Europeanness. Their genetics may be more West Asian than average for Europe but it's their culture and foundation that built up and civilized the rest of Europe that counts.
OK, i agree with that but tell me whats the connection between Greeks of 2500 BC and todays modern Greeks if we consider the fact that at least half of these modern Greeks grandparents was speaking Albanian, Vlach latin, Turkish as a mothertongue and followed Albanian and Turkish customs for centuries before [and still following]?

Should we consider them as the heirs of ancient Greeks just because western European philhellenes told them so after "purifying" their language in the schools they set up in Greece? Philhellenes even tried to teach ancient Greek language to the mobs instead of trying to purify current one but they couldn't manage to achieve that goal. I wonder what would happen if they would succeed in that. Today`s hellenic propaganda would be much more insane then.

Whether you deny or not, the connection between ancient and today`s modern Greeks is constructed and imposed to the Morean mob by western European philhellenes.

[Prince Carlo]

Videos of Georgians.

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=837255&postcount=107

[sydvice2]

padre organito is first anti georgian in this forum dont believe him he is writing lies

[Dacul]

Most georgians can pass in Romania without anyone notice they are not from here.

[Padre Organtino]

padre organito is first anti georgian in this forum dont believe him he is writing lies

http://louvreuse.net/images/stories/divers/facepalm/facepalm3.jpg

You should marry Nero.

[brunette]

Well, it's kind of a "which is worse" situation.. considering Greeks and South Italians non-European because of their West Asian component? Or considering Levantines, Kurds, Iranians, Turks, Armenians, Assyrians, Mizhrahi Jews as European if we count West Asian (which is their largest component) as European?
Mizrahi Jews are Yemeni Jews why bring them into any of this?

[brunette]

I think Hess made the best point anyway. There's no point in saying people are mixed race because they don't live in Europe because the term European has a genetic term not a geographical one. So it doesn't matter if Georgians Armenians and Turks were once European but moved to West Asia they're still genetically European so it's an illogical and erational argument. Besides Europeans evolved out of Asia most Europeans are partly Neolithic.

And the Southern European argument Joseph already argued.

[orangepulp]

Turks look Turkish not becausae of west asian component but because of south asian, east asian and southwest asian component.
For example georgians have the highest west asian component and they look ok to me, at least much better than Turks.


That's a stupid explanation.

Greeks score as much southwest Asian admixture as Turks do (Armenians and Assyrians score it even more), Armenians score as much South Asian as Turks do. Georgians are indeed the most West Asian from the bunch but if you are going to correlate phenotype to genotype then Turks should be the the most European looking since they score the most European components out of the West Asian bunch. Only the Asian admixture is foreign.

In general I don't think West Asian/Anatolian people look very different from each other. I don't get what you mean by Turkish look as it is diverse.

So if these pure European look like Turks to you it could be because of an another reason


Those ''pure Europeans'' (Southern Europeans) score significant amount of West Asian genes and I don't consider the West Asian component as European, hence why you got Southern Euros that can pass as West Asians.

[brunette]

I would like to put this in bold for the Northern Europeans

Despite the fact that Southern Europeans were the first to evolve which would make them pull to the Near East a little it's still not enough of a admixture to make them racially mixed.

[Prince Carlo]

Turks should be the the most European looking since they score the most European components out of the West Asian bunch.

I agree with this.

[antonio]

Pretty obvious, if we dont discuss, for example, certain Spanish types like Xavi Hernández:

http://top-people.starmedia.com/tmp/swotti/cacheEGF2ASBOZXJUW6FUZGV6UGVVCGXLLVBLB3BSZQ==/imgXavi%20Hern%C3%A1ndez3.jpg

Pd. Barcelona midfielder and recent Champions League loser.:D

[Padre Organtino]

Most georgians can pass in Romania without anyone notice they are not from here.

Aherne does not approve;)

[zlakopistou]

West asian/caucasian and most of the "mediterranean" aren't european in the sense that they didn't originate specifially there, as their names indicate.

[Insuperable]

--

[Urbanuss]

No.

[Polischuk]

If its about west asia component, ofc its not, its not the same as neolithic in europe, ethbicities who score high west asia like some southern europeans are boarder europeans, i cant call some sicialians who look armenian white europeans, they look levantine middle eastern to me, but majority r meds or meds with some armenoid influence so they r europeans, but boarder ones

[Flashball]

If its about west asia component, ofc its not, its not the same as neolithic in europe, ethbicities who score high west asia like some southern europeans are boarder europeans, i cant call some sicialians who look armenian white europeans, they look levantine middle eastern to me, but majority r meds or meds with some armenoid influence so they r europeans, but boarder ones

All Europeans have Neolithic europeans.

French have 40%, English 35%, Polak 30-35%, etc.