Macedonian language and dialects

[Vojnik]

This is just a thread showing information on the Macedonian language and dialects. I will start off with maps.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/linguisticmap.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/linguisticmap1.png


http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/macedonian_dialects.png
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/macedonian_dialects-01.png

http://macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/416-2.png
Taken from the book “The Indo-European Languages” edited by Anna Giacalone Ramat and Paul Ramat, 1998, page 416.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/dijalektickamapa.jpg
Source: "A Historical Phonology Of the Macedonian Language" by Blazhe Koneski

This map shows the distribution of the Macedonian dialects within Macedonia

[Romanion]

I have an aunt who comes from a village near Florina, and she can speak Macedonian and Greek.

[Vojnik]

I have an aunt who comes from a village near Florina, and she can speak Macedonian and Greek.

The older generations living in those areas still speak Macedonian which was their first language, but it's a shame that the Macedonian language will soon disappear with the new generations only speaking Greek.

[Romanion]

The older generations living in those areas still speak Macedonian which was their first language, but it's a shame that the Macedonian language will soon disappear with the new generations only speaking Greek.

Yes my cousins don't speak Macedonian like she does. She also has really interesting stories about hiding in mines when she was 10 years old for protection from the bombs dropping in Northern Greece during the civil war. My childhood was much more peaceful thank god.

[Vojnik]

This is the dialect of Buf/Akrites, a village close to Lerin/Florina.

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This would of been the dialect my ancestors spoke.

[Vojnik]

Yes my cousins don't speak Macedonian like she does. She also has really interesting stories about hiding in mines when she was 10 years old for protection from the bombs dropping in Northern Greece during the civil war. My childhood was much more peaceful thank god.

Yes there has so much stories. Romanion, what does your Aunt/Teta identify as?

[Romanion]

Yes there has so much stories. Romanion, what does your Aunt/Teta identify as?

She identifies as Greek Macedonian, but she calls the language Macedonian not Bulgarian.

[Vojnik]

She identifies as Greek Macedonian, but she calls the language Macedonian not Bulgarian.

What is your opinion, who are the slavic speaking people in Greece? what do you see them as?

[Vojnik]

This is a Macedonian woman from the village of Buf/Akritas, Lerin/Florina region, northern Greece talking and singing in Macedonian. At the end she screams out with her fist in the air "razbudise Makedonija", in English, "wake up Macedonia".

g9-NaTnYcos

[Vojnik]

Voden/Edessa dialect:

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[Romanion]

What is your opinion, who are the slavic speaking people in Greece? what do you see them as?

I see them who they identify as. There are people, like the older women in the video, that call themselves Macedonians, but there are people like my aunt who knows the language but identify as Greek. So its a personal choice. Though the people that call themselves Macedonians tend to be of an older generation.

[iNird]

Are there any "Macedonian" protests in Greece?

[Romanion]

Are there any "Macedonian" protests in Greece?

That elderly woman was protesting wasn't she? ;)

[Vojnik]

Are there any "Macedonian" protests in Greece?

No. It is not easy to be a Macedonian in Greece, so protests would be difficult seeing that people are scared to even call them selves Macedonian or speak the language in public.

This is what happens to Macedonians in Greece.

Promotion of Greek Macedonian Dictionary Athens:
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Those crazy people in the video are from the Greek far-right organisation Hrisi Avgi.

[Vojnik]

This could also be considered as a protest by the leader of the Rainbow party (ethnic Macedonian party in Greece), Pavlos Voskopolos.

Watch the reaction when he starts speaking Macedonian on national television:
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:thumbs up

Bravo Pavle!

[Romanion]

Golden dawn might win seats in parliament in the upcomming elections.

[Vojnik]

Golden dawn might win seats in parliament in the upcomming elections.

Ye, I heard that. Don't they want to put land mines on the Greek-Turkish border? lol

[Romanion]

Ye, I heard that. Don't they want to put land mines on the Greek-Turkish border? lol

Yes, but weirder things have happened in Greek politics before. I think the early 90's New Democracy (middle right) actually had a coalition with the KKE (communists) so PASOK wouldn't be in power. It didn't last long.

[Queen B]

No. It is not easy to be a Macedonian in Greece, so protests would be difficult seeing that people are scared to even call them selves Macedonian or speak the language in public.

You have Voskopoulos that is part of a political party that promotes the ''Macedonian'' stuff, yet you say that they are scared to even call themselves such? That's condradictional.
Plus, you post also a video from a woman, calling herself as such, again.
If people were scared, there would be NO public videos with people showing their faces and say that they are ''Macedonian'', neither this political party would exist.

Nird, there is no such protest, because there are not enough people to protest.And what for to protest? That's bullshit Fyrom propaganda.

You see, once a year, there is a celebration going on in Meliti village, with all the Fyromians gathering there, plus others coming from Fyrom,too, with buses.
There is more security by Greek police, but there is totaly happening, with no problem from Greece.
Neither the political party has problems except the fact that.... they get no more votes than 3.000 :lol:
Yeah, the imaginary minority is THAT big!

[Vojnik]

You have Voskopoulos that is part of a political party that promotes the ''Macedonian'' stuff, yet you say that they are scared to even call themselves such? That's condradictional.
Plus, you post also a video from a woman, calling herself as such, again.
If people were scared, there would be NO public videos with people showing their faces and say that they are ''Macedonian'', neither this political party would exist.

Well imagine if they called the party something like "Macedonians of Greece party", how would Greeks like you react? lol. Their are a small amount of people that are not afraid to show that they are Macedonian.


Nird, there is no such protest, because there are not enough people to protest.And what for to protest? That's bullshit Fyrom propaganda.

Could you imagine Macedonians protesting down the streets of Salonika? That would be fantastic, but once again people are too afraid, because showing your Macedonian identity has major economic and social disadvantages.


You see, once a year, there is a celebration going on in Meliti village, with all the Fyromians gathering there, plus others coming from Fyrom,too, with buses.
There is more security by Greek police, but there is totaly happening, with no problem from Greece.
Neither the political party has problems except the fact that.... they get no more votes than 3.000 :lol:
Yeah, the imaginary minority is THAT big!

The Village is a big village populated by a Macedonian majority. The same goes with the voting, you vote for the Macedonian party and you risk economic and social disadvantages.

Do you Greeks call Macedonians in Greece "fyromians" as well? yous are despicable.

[Queen B]

Well imagine if they called the party something like "Macedonians of Greece party", how would Greeks like you react? lol. Their are a small amount of people that are not afraid to show that they are Macedonian.

There are already Macedonians in Greece, and they are millions, but have nothing to do with your compatriots.
This name is not applicable.
Its like having people of another ethnicity in USA, and create the ''Texan of USA party'' whitin US.


Could you imagine Macedonians protesting down the streets of Salonika? That would be fantastic, but once again people are too afraid, because showing your Macedonian identity has major economic and social disadvantages.

Who will protest? the 1000 old people like the ones in video? Or the 3-5.000 that exist in total?
Your people SHOW their identity, what's that you DON'T get.
As long as they celebrate, or talk publicly, means that they can publicly declare their ethnicity.
The rest is just BS.


The Village is a big village populated by a Macedonian majority. The same goes with the voting, you vote for the Macedonian party and you risk economic and social disadvantages.

Since when the voting is visible?
Whoever wants to vote, will vote, and noone will every know who did that.
So, that's pretty bullshit.
There is not more than 5.000 of Fyromians,you know it very well.
The only time that Rainbow took more votes (around 7.000) was the very first time that went for elections, because people didn't know what was about, and got many votes by females, just for the name, that's why half of the votes where from all over Greece, instead of Florina.


Do you Greeks call Macedonians in Greece "fyromians" as well? yous are despicable.
No, we call Macedonians as Greeks. But we call fyromians as Skopians.

[brunette]

This is just a thread showing information on the Macedonian language and dialects. I will start off with maps.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/linguisticmap.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/linguisticmap1.png


http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/macedonian_dialects.png
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/macedonian_dialects-01.png

http://macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/416-2.png
Taken from the book “The Indo-European Languages” edited by Anna Giacalone Ramat and Paul Ramat, 1998, page 416.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/dijalektickamapa.jpg
Source: "A Historical Phonology Of the Macedonian Language" by Blazhe Koneski

This map shows the distribution of the Macedonian dialects within Macedonia

Macedonian languages LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL!

[Vojnik]

There are already Macedonians in Greece, and they are millions, but have nothing to do with your compatriots.
This name is not applicable.
Its like having people of another ethnicity in USA, and create the ''Texan of USA party'' whitin US.

No, it's not like that dandelion. Macedonian blood flows right trough Aegean Macedonia, the ones you call "Greek Macedonians" are the result of the Greek-Turkish citizen exchange, they are Christian Turks.


Who will protest? the 1000 old people like the ones in video? Or the 3-5.000 that exist in total?
Your people SHOW their identity, what's that you DON'T get.
As long as they celebrate, or talk publicly, means that they can publicly declare their ethnicity.
The rest is just BS.

There are many more then 5,000 whether you believe it or not.


Since when the voting is visible?
Whoever wants to vote, will vote, and noone will every know who did that.
So, that's pretty bullshit.
There is not more than 5.000 of Fyromians,you know it very well.
The only time that Rainbow took more votes (around 7.000) was the very first time that went for elections, because people didn't know what was about, and got many votes by females, just for the name, that's why half of the votes where from all over Greece, instead of Florina.

My current view on the voting in Greece still stands.


No, we call Macedonians as Greeks. But we call fyromians as Skopians.

What do you call the ethnic Macedonians in Greece, my people?

[Vojnik]

Macedonian languages LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL!

Thank you for your meaningful contribution. YOU BIMBO!

[morski]

No, it's not like that dandelion. Macedonian blood flows right trough Aegean Macedonia, the ones you call "Greek Macedonians" are the result of the Greek-Turkish citizen exchange, they are Christian Turks.



There are many more then 5,000 whether you believe it or not.



My current view on the voting in Greece still stands.



What do you call the ethnic Macedonians in Greece, my people?

They call them Dopii.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_speakers_of_Greek_Macedonia#Ethnic_and_ling uistic_affiliations

[Vojnik]

They call them Dopii.

Really? did'nt know that. Well we call the recent arrival Christian Turks 'Prosfigi', maybe the Greek members would know that word well. :D

[morski]

Yep, dopii, meaning simply locals.

[Queen B]

No, it's not like that dandelion. Macedonian blood flows right trough Aegean Macedonia, the ones you call "Greek Macedonians" are the result of the Greek-Turkish citizen exchange, they are Christian Turks.

*Facepalm*
They are Greeks, like it or not. The fact that they lived within the borders of modern-Turkey, doesn't make them Turks.



There are many more then 5,000 whether you believe it or not.
Well, everything dissagrees with you, sorry for the news.
For the votes of Rainbow, for the participation in Meliti celebration,etc.



What do you call the ethnic Macedonians in Greece, my people?
There is no ethnicity called Macedonians, to start with.
So, the people of the same ethnicity of you, who live in Greece, are most likely called Skopjians.
Having lived for 16 years in Macedonia (Serres, Thessaloniki and Chalkidiki) and visit often due to family and a boyfriend Kozani and Naousa, I have never met any of your compatriots there , so most of Greeks, except those one in Florina probably, haven't meet any of your compatriots in real life, to need to call them somehow.

[Queen B]

They call them Dopii.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_speakers_of_Greek_Macedonia#Ethnic_and_ling uistic_affiliations
Noone have ever called them this way.
This is probably how Skopjians of Greece call themselves. Greeks don't use it.

[Onur]

Here are the so-called "Greek Macedonians" !!!

They sing and dance in Turkish with their centuries old songs but nvm that, they were true born hellenes 10.000 year ago anyway, just like the slavic speaking Macedonians :D;
TfA2sOj5rd8
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LzmGqy6OR2s


There was a documentary few years ago on a Turkish tv, about the population exchange of 1923. They picked up few Turkish people who came from same town in today`s Greece and gone there to let them see their grandparents homeland. These are the so-called "Greek Macedonians" they saw in the town. Most of the inhabitants came from central Anatolia and Blacksea side and surprisingly, some olders still speaks perfect Turkish. They say that they born in Greece but their parents secretly thought them Turkish anyway because Turkish was their mothertongue and they learned Greek only after they went to school. Elder women says that their children cannot speak Turkish properly anymore but they are trying to teach them themselves. Watch this, it`s in English subtitled;
_-XcvM-O8Qs

[morski]

Noone have ever called them this way.
This is probably how Skopjians of Greece call themselves. Greeks don't use it.

I had in mind the present day Slaphone Greek Macedonians. Maybe they call themselves that way. I thought that Graecophone Macedonians also refer to them as dopii.

Lf2S8lXmvrk

[Queen B]

I had in mind the present day Slaphone Greek Macedonians. Maybe they call themselves that way. I thought that Graecophone Macedonians also refer to them as dopii.

Ιn that video, there are only Slavophones of Greece. In reality, I have never met anyone, let along a Greek calling them this way.

The funny is that the guy asks:
If there was a Turk here, would he understand what you are saying?
They say No
If there was a Bulgarian here, would he understand what you are saying?
They said, yes but not everyhting
And then a woman says '' Serbs, only Slavs of Serbia would''

And the end was priceless :lol:

[Onur]

Ιn that video, there are only Slavophones of Greece
Do not lie. The woman at the left side speaks Turkish and she gives an example that they count in Turkish and the others in the town in Bulgarian.

This is your so-called "Greek Macedonia". There are only slavic speaking Macedonians and Turkish christians from Anatolia. She says "Bulgarian, Serbian" because it`s something forbidden to call that slavic language as Macedonian in Greece.

Btw, the presenters speech in the end of the video makes things obvious. This is just a video to serve to the stupid hellenic propaganda. They speak Turkish and Macedonian but they feel "patriada ellines" !!! poor victims of the Greek assimilation machine, i pity for these people.

[brunette]

Eastern Thrace is apart of Anatolia. Macedonia is greater than that besides that's why they call one Macedonia ( Greek one ) and Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedon.

[Wildland]

She identifies as Greek Macedonian, but she calls the language Macedonian not Bulgarian.

This is where issue is stated. Just like USA Greeks practise the same form. If you are black in USA you are Afro American. If you are Slavic speaker in Greece you are Greek Macedonian. If you are Hellenic speaker in northern Greece you are Greek Macedonian.
Can two people be Greek Macedonian when their heritage is completely different? No.
I'm not Swedish Macedonian, I'm Macedonian, and there is no Slavic Macedonia, there is only Macedonia.
And this is the issue with the name issue about Macedonia. Why should a country be named after the language it is speaking?

[Queen B]

Do not lie. The woman at the left side speaks Turkish and she gives an example that they count in Turkish and the others in the town in Bulgarian.
I didn't notice that she counts on Turkish. I only heard unknown languages by all of those in video.
.

This is your so-called "Greek Macedonia". There are only slavic speaking Macedonians and Turkish christians from Anatolia. She says "Bulgarian, Serbian" because it`s something forbidden to call that slavic language as Macedonian in Greece..
No, Macedonia is a big region, and not a village in Florina, Onur.
And unlike you, or anyone there, I lived for many years, and I am from there, from my father's side.

Not at all. They say that they speak something different from Turkish, Greek, Bulgarian, and only a Serb could understand everything.



Btw, the presenters speech in the end of the video makes things obvious. This is just a video to serve to the stupid hellenic propaganda. They speak Turkish and Macedonian but they feel "patriada ellines" !!! poor victims of the Greek assimilation machine, i pity for these people.
Assimiliation my ass. Why Voskopoulos doesn't feel Greek? Why the members of Rainbow doesn't feel Greek?
Why others, of stupid videos posted by Fyromians, doesn't feel Greek?
We are either bad in assimiliation, or something doesn't add right.


This is where issue is stated. Just like USA Greeks practise the same form. If you are black in USA you are Afro American. If you are Slavic speaker in Greece you are Greek Macedonian. If you are Hellenic speaker in northern Greece you are Greek Macedonian.

If he is a Slavic speaker (and doesn't feel like Greek), is not a Greek Macedonian or a Macedonian Greek, he is a Fyromian that holds Greek nationality.He is not Greek and no Greek would ever see him as such.
If he feels like Greek,and he is from that place, then he is Greek.

, I'm Macedonian, and there is no Slavic Macedonia, there is only Macedonia
Exactly, since antiquity, and itis a beautiful region in Greece.

[Wildland]

If he is a Slavic speaker (and doesn't feel like Greek), is not a Greek Macedonian or a Macedonian Greek, he is a Fyromian that holds Greek nationality.He is not Greek and no Greek would ever see him as such.
If he feels like Greek,and he is from that place, then he is Greek.

Greeks never saw Macedonians as Greeks so you are right there.



Exactly, since antiquity, and itis a beautiful region in Greece.

That's because in antiquity the borders where right, and the people where white ;)

[Queen B]

Greeks never saw Macedonians as Greeks so you are right there.
Greeks always saw Macedonians as Greeks.
But Macedonians =/= Serbo-Bulgarians that call themselves Macedonians, from Fyrob

[brunette]

Yes the ones who are mentally ill do. ^

[Romanion]

I don't understand the arguement about Greek Macedonians because some of them came from Anatolia they are somehow less Greek than others. I don't understand the slavic arguement that they are somehow more Macedonian than the pontic migrants because the slavs arn't native to Macedonia either.

[Onur]

I didn't notice that she counts on Turkish. I only heard unknown languages by all of those in video.
The women at the left side responds Turkish to the Macedonian speaking man in the beginning of the video. I couldn't understand what he asked in slavic but she responded to him in Turkish by saying "Yarı yarıya" meaning 50-50.

Like i told you, this is your so-called "Greek Macedonia". Turkish speaking peoples and local slavic speaking Macedonians. This is their true identity and if there is anything Greek in them, it`s the result of your state`s imposition and forced assimilation upon them less than a century ago.


They say that they speak something different from Turkish, Greek, Bulgarian, and only a Serb could understand everything.
I dont need to be a linguist to understand their language. They just speak a fusion of Macedonian and Turkish. If a Serb can understand them, it`s because Serbian language uses more than 9000 Turkish words, expressions and idioms, even today. I can imagine how Serbian language was a century ago, half Turkish maybe?


Assimiliation my ass. Why Voskopoulos doesn't feel Greek? Why the members of Rainbow doesn't feel Greek?

Why others, of stupid videos posted by Fyromians, doesn't feel Greek?
We are either bad in assimiliation, or something doesn't add right.
You can fool people here, maybe even Macedonian forumers too. Your state can fool you ignorant Greeks too but you cannot fool me. I follow Greek politics and minority issue for a long time and i know why the Macedonian Rainbow party and Turkish parties gets low votes in the Greek elections. It`s not because Macedonians doesn't prefer to vote to them. Here is why;

There was %3 national election threshold in Greece between 1927 to 1990.


08.04.1990; Two ethnic Turkish citizen applies to be an independent candidate for the election. Both of them gets selected because they applied as an independent candidate, so there was no %3 threshold rule for them. Greek government threw Sadık Ahmet, one of the Turkish deputy to the jail by accusing them with treason just because he called himself as a Turk.


24.04.1990; Greek ruling party changes electoral system and they implement new law to include independent candidates for the %3 national election threshold as well. Ofc this has been done to prevent any ethnic Turk to apply and to be selected in the next elections as an independent candidate. Since then, it`s practically impossible to get elected as an independent candidate in Greece because of %3 threshold.


This time, jailed Turkish MP forms new political party at 1991 and they try to get at least 200.000+ vote to get pass %3 threshold in the elections of 1993. Turkish government gives full support to them and transports about 10.000 Greek citizens from Turkey to the Greece border for free to let them vote at the Greek border control. Turkish government even arranges extra flights with Turkish airlines for the Greek citizen Turks lives in Germany and France. But unfortunately, ethnic Turkish party fails to get pass %3 threshold with only minor difference.


Right after the 1993 elections, ethnic Turkish party asks Macedonian party Rainbow to form an alliance for the next elections. They agrees on everything to enter the next elections as an union of minorities. Greek ruling party, perceives this as a major threat and they change election system again. This time, they bring %3 threshold for not only in whole Greece but for every region and municipalities as well. They also creates new bigger municipalities both in Macedonia and western Thrace by changing the borders of old small municipalities. For example, they create one big municipality by merging 2 or even 3 former municipality. The ruling party in Greece also relocates few factories at southern Greece and settle them right between Macedonia and Thrace to create some kind of buffer zone between Macedonians and Turks. They don't get Macedonian or Turkish workers for the factories either but they bring 1000s of Greeks from southern side to the north to increase the population of ethnic Greeks in there.


Because of these changes in the territories and populations of new municipalities, the chance for the new alliance gets slim. In the mean time, jailed ethnic Turk MP, the leader of ethnic Turkish party dies in a suspicious car accident at 1995 while they were doing negotiations for the alliance.

http://www.turksam.org/tr/a1802.html


Greece continuously creates new hurdles for both Macedonian and Turkish candidates and never allow them to be active in political scene. Thats why Macedonians doesn't vote for rainbow because it`s useless, thanks to the official Greek policies towards them.


Exactly, since antiquity, and itis a beautiful region in Greece.
You are lying again.

From 19th century to 1913, there was even a Greek embassy in Salonica and the Greek population was no more than 20% in whole Macedonia for centuries. You altered the ethnic composition of the place by sending 600.000 local Turks to Anatolia in 1924, expelling out ~40.000 Jews before WW-2 during fascist Metaxas regime by purposely burning Jewish quarters in Salonica and Nazis handled the rest in WW-2. And finally you massacred slavic speaking Macedonians with napalm bombs and expelled out the 10.000s by accusing them being "communists" in your civil war.

Thats how we have today`s "Greek Macedonia" with 100% neo-Greeks. You cannot fool me with your "hellenic Macedonia since antiquity" crap!

[Onur]

And unlike you, or anyone there, I lived for many years, and I am from there, from my father's side.
Ohhh really?

OK then, which language was your grandparents speaking in the so-called Greek Macedonia? were they Gagauz, Karamanlides, Urums from Crimea, Georgia, so was it Turkish? OR slavic speaking local Macedonians? Maybe Vlachs, so Romanian?


I don't understand the arguement about Greek Macedonians because some of them came from Anatolia they are somehow less Greek than others. I don't understand the slavic arguement that they are somehow more Macedonian than the pontic migrants because the slavs arn't native to Macedonia either.
They are not less Greek than you or others. This is your Greece with Albanian, Turkish, Vlach latin, slavic Macedonian speaking people. None of you more or less Greek than other at all but don't worry, like they say in the video, they are "patriada ellines" living in 10.000 year old hellenic Macedonia today ;):rolleyes::confused:

[Yaroslav]

I like Greece and Greek people but I have to agree with Onur on this one. What Greeks did in Macedonia was brutal, changing grave names and deporting hundreds of thousands of people replacing them with Greeks, Armenians, and Christian Turks from Anatolia.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Macedonia_-_Point_of_View_of_the_Serbs.jpg

This was Macedonia's demographics before Hellenization.

[Romanion]

You are lying again.

From 19th century to 1913, there was even a Greek embassy in Salonica and the Greek population was no more than 20% in whole Macedonia for centuries. You altered the ethnic composition of the place by sending 600.000 local Turks to Anatolia in 1924, expelling out ~40.000 Jews before WW-2 during fascist Metaxas regime by purposely burning Jewish quarters in Salonica and Nazis handled the rest in WW-2. And finally you massacred slavic speaking Macedonians with napalm bombs and expelled out the 10.000s by accusing them being "communists" in your civil war.

Thats how we have today`s "Greek Macedonia" with 100% neo-Greeks. You cannot fool me with your "hellenic Macedonia since antiquity" crap!

HAHA you are hilarious, you know the events of the 1920's but you still spew out this garbage because you hate Greeks for being better than you. Little Pomak with his inferiority complex.

[Romanion]

Ohhh really?




They are not less Greek than you or others. This is your Greece with Albanian, Turkish, Vlach latin, slavic Macedonian speaking people. None of you more or less Greek than other at all but don't worry, like they say in the video, they are "patriada ellines" living in 10.000 year old hellenic Macedonia today ;):rolleyes::confused:

Focusing on minorities again I see, your hatred for Greeks is funny.

[Romanion]

I like Greece and Greek people but I have to agree with Onur on this one. What Greeks did in Macedonia was brutal, changing grave names and deporting hundreds of thousands of people replacing them with Greeks, Armenians, and Christian Turks from Anatolia.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Macedonia_-_Point_of_View_of_the_Serbs.jpg

This was Macedonia's demographics before Hellenization.

How does this differ from when the slavs invaded the area? And what is a "Christian Turk"?

[Queen B]

Like i told you, this is your so-called "Greek Macedonia". Turkish speaking peoples and local slavic speaking Macedonians.
Sure, out of the 2-3 millions in Macedonia, surely, 10 persons in a remote village there, consitute the reality :lol: No, no, no , YOU know better :lol:

And if there are people that survived from Asia minor, of course they would speak Turkish as well. What's the strange in here? They lived there.
And yes, Greeks in US speak English as well, what this make them? English?
So, if there are Greeks that previously lived in Turkey, for many years or hundreds of years, what's strange to speak the language?
Would this make them less Greeks anyhow?


This is their true identity and if there is anything Greek in them, it`s the result of your state`s imposition and forced assimilation upon them less than a century ago.

Bullshit. again and again.
If this was the truth, ALL of them, would feel Greek. But as you can see , many of those 5.000, don't even identify as Greeks, so...


08.04.1990; Two ethnic Turkish citizen applies to be an independent candidate for the election. Both of them gets selected because they applied as an independent candidate, so there was no %3 threshold rule for them. Greek government threw Sadık Ahmet, one of the Turkish deputy to the jail by accusing them with treason just because he called himself as a Turk.

Turkish....citizens? I guess you mean a Turkish national, that hold Greek citizenship, because if he doesn't hold Greek citizenship, he can't go to elections.
Also, there ARE already Ethnic Turks in Greek parliament. So, if we wanted to cut them off, we would do it anyway, not selectively. If something happened to them, there should be a real reason, because others, had no problem reaching the Greek parliament and being part in the political scene.


24.04.1990; Greek ruling party changes electoral system and they implement new law to include independent candidates for the %3 national election threshold as well. Ofc this has been done to prevent any ethnic Turk to apply and to be selected in the next elections as an independent candidate. Since then, it`s practically impossible to get elected as an independent candidate in Greece because of %3 threshold.

See my comment above.


Right after the 1993 elections, ethnic Turkish party asks Macedonian party Rainbow to form an alliance for the next elections. They agrees on everything to enter the next elections as an union of minorities. Greek ruling party, perceives this as a major threat and they change election system again. This time, they bring %3 threshold for not only in whole Greece but for every region and municipalities as well. They also creates new bigger municipalities both in Macedonia and western Thrace by changing the borders of old small municipalities. For example, they create one big municipality by merging 2 or even 3 former municipality. The ruling party in Greece also relocates few factories at southern Greece and settle them right between Macedonia and Thrace to create some kind of buffer zone between Macedonians and Turks. They don't get Macedonian or Turkish workers for the factories either but they bring 1000s of Greeks from southern side to the north to increase the population of ethnic Greeks in there.
You create more theories than the/about Jews. You should look into it ..
Yeah, yeah, the business man, had YOU in mind :lol:


Greece continuously creates new hurdles for both Macedonian and Turkish candidates and never allow them to be active in political scene. Thats why Macedonians doesn't vote for rainbow because it`s useless, thanks to the official Greek policies towards them.

Have a look at the Greek parliament, Onur. You ll find ethnic Turks participating.
If they are not enough, in numbers, to enter, this is not Greece's problem but YOUR problem, and obviously the fact that they are not as much as they dream of .


You altered the ethnic composition of the place by sending 600.000 local Turks to Anatolia in 1924,
WE send them? :lol:
You act like it was our choice to have the populatione exchange.

expelling out ~40.000 Jews before WW-2 during fascist Metaxas regime by purposely burning Jewish quarters in Salonica and Nazis handled the rest in WW-2.
Well, ask the Jews if they agree with you.

And finally you massacred slavic speaking Macedonians with napalm bombs and expelled out the 10.000s by accusing them being "communists" in your civil war.

Another bullshit , common among Fyromian brainwashed population.
Did or did they not side with communists? They did.
Since they did, THEY, together with COMMUNISTS , got the fuck out of here.
No matter what they were, Bulgarians, Greeks, or Japanese, they were traitors, and left.
Those who didn't side with communists, stayed there, and now you hear the ''Macedonian'' bullshit stories that we are talking about.


Thats how we have today`s "Greek Macedonia" with 100% neo-Greeks. You cannot fool me with your "hellenic Macedonia since antiquity" crap!
You have a very strange logic and double standards, Onur.
The Slavic speaking population in Greece, is NOT Greek, and can't be Greek (accepted, if they don't feel like it, of course they can't be), but the Greeks that came from Asia Minor, are Turks? How come? You are better in assimiliation?
Like it or not, those who came from Turkey to Greece, they are Greeks, not Turks. If not all of them, the majority for sure, especially those from Asia Minor, Pontus and Instabul, where there was a sizable Greek minority.
Ohhh really?

OK then, which language was your grandparents speaking in the so-called Greek Macedonia? were they Gagauz, Karamanlides, so Turkish? or slavic speaking local Macedonians? Maybe Vlachs?

My grandfather's mom, from a village around Thessaloniki, spoke only Greek, is Greek and have always lived in Greece.
My grandfathers dad, his family, and up until 3 generations before (before he was living in Thessaloniki), was living in Asia Minor, (V)Urla village. Unfortunately for you, he had left some diaries..Guess what. In Greek.I ll ask my grandmother (she has all the remainings of my grandfather), if I can have them. He also spoke Turkish, since he lived there.Obviously. But not my grandfather.



They are not less Greek than you or others. This is your Greece with Albanian, Turkish, Vlach latin, slavic Macedonian speaking people. None of you more or less Greek than other at all but don't worry, like they say in the video, they are "patriada ellines" living in 10.000 year old hellenic Macedonia today ;):rolleyes::confused:
Well, this is like the 7th time now, posting the same old story. If you say it some more, I told you, you are going to believe it.

[Queen B]

I like Greece and Greek people but I have to agree with Onur on this one. What Greeks did in Macedonia was brutal, changing grave names and deporting hundreds of thousands of people replacing them with Greeks, Armenians, and Christian Turks from Anatolia.

Numbers are increasing by posts! :lol:
The 10.000 from Onur now became hundreds of thousands.
What's next? 10.000.000 ? :lol:

Those that were deported, they were deported AFTER the population exchange, during civil war, and this was because they side with comminists, which were ALSO deported.

Get your facts straight next time. At least, learn the propaganda well. :wink

[Crn Volk]

How does this differ from when the slavs invaded the area? And what is a "Christian Turk"?

Slavs settled 1500 years ago. Christian Turks settled from the 1920s. There's a big difference.
The Albanians also use the Slav settler argument in order to claim lands which do not belong to them, and then ethnically cleanse these 'Slav settlers'.

[Crn Volk]

Macedonian culture continues to survive 10km off the coast of the Aegean Sea. In a village called Trikala (in both Macedonian and Greek), the villagers perform the annual Macedonian tradition of "Koleda" and perform songs such as "Bukite Rasvivat". This is significant because the region is surrounded by Pontian refugees and the area has never been in contact with influences from the Republic of Macedonia or from 19th century Bulgarian propaganda


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOzliPE1X60

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLgV-ib-0lY

[iNird]

Slavs settled 1500 years ago. Christian Turks settled from the 1920s. There's a big difference.
The Albanians also use the Slav settler argument in order to claim lands which do not belong to them, and then ethnically cleanse these 'Slav settlers'.

And Slavs use BS claims that Albanians are settlers in Kosova and Macedonia.

Isn't the Balkans great? You settled my land, he settled my land, i'm native, you are an invader, blah blah blah I'm just a dumb balkanoid with a block head what do i know

:D

[Crn Volk]

I'm just a dumb balkanoid

Yes, shiptars give the rest of us a bad name.

[iNird]

Yes, shiptars give the rest of us a bad name.

See signature.

[Yaroslav]

Numbers are increasing by posts! :lol:
The 10.000 from Onur now became hundreds of thousands.
What's next? 10.000.000 ? :lol:

Those that were deported, they were deported AFTER the population exchange, during civil war, and this was because they side with comminists, which were ALSO deported.

Get your facts straight next time. At least, learn the propaganda well. :wink

When I said deported I was talking about population exchange after Greco-Turkish war.

[Romanion]

Slavs settled 1500 years ago. Christian Turks settled from the 1920s. There's a big difference.
The Albanians also use the Slav settler argument in order to claim lands which do not belong to them, and then ethnically cleanse these 'Slav settlers'.

"We took your lands 1500 years ago and how dare you take it back!" is what you are saying.

[Crn Volk]

"We took your lands 1500 years ago and how dare you take it back!" is what you are saying.


The Hellenic tribes also displaced the native Pelasgian population. I've seen Albanians claim descent from Pelasgians too. Careful they'll reclaim Athens soon :wink

[Romanion]

The Hellenic tribes also displaced the native Pelasgian population. I've seen Albanians claim descent from Pelasgians too. Careful they'll reclaim Athens soon :wink

Anyone replacing albanians is a good thing.

[iNird]

Albanians settled in present day Albania in 12th century after they were expelled by Armenians in 9th century because Albanians turned to Islam, 6th centuries after the Slavs integrated into the Balkans and made history.

OK troll

:coffee:

[Onur]

And if there are people that survived from Asia minor, of course they would speak Turkish as well. What's the strange in here? They lived there.

And yes, Greeks in US speak English as well, what this make them? English?
So, if there are Greeks that previously lived in Turkey, for many years or hundreds of years, what's strange to speak the language?
Would this make them less Greeks anyhow?
Your analogy fails.

I didn't say that they are christian Turks just because they spoke Turkish. You know i was saying that about half of the 1,1 million christians of population exchange was Turks. If the only criteria would be speaking Turkish, then i would say all of them was Turks. I said half of them because these people`s mothertongue was Turkish as attested by Byzantines and travelers centuries ago and they were totally ignorant to Greek language, didn't even know one word of Greek. Their family names was also Turkish. Why do you think millions of current Greek citizens have Turkish names today? and i know that some of them dropped "-ouglu" endings and adopted "-idis, -lis" suffixes in 1924 and changed their Turkish names.


Have a look at the Greek parliament, Onur. You ll find ethnic Turks participating. If they are not enough, in numbers, to enter, this is not Greece's problem but YOUR problem, and obviously the fact that they are not as much as they dream of .
Ohh yes, 1-2 people at most once in 10 years. They are passive and hostages to your Greek parties because they cannot get elected as an independent deputy and they cannot create their own Turkish minority party for the reasons i explained above either.


WE send them? :lol:
You act like it was our choice to have the populatione exchange.
I see that you took my advice to you about writing more "lulz&lolz", that good for you :)

What they taught you in Greek schools and your pedophile priests indoctrinated you is false. After the invasion of Macedonia in 1913, Greece was trying to control vast territories, more than their population can handle. Also there was more than 600.000 Turks in there and this was not something suitable to your hellenic myths. Greek politicians of that era was trying to make population exchange with Anatolian christians since 1913, inclusion of Macedonia to Greece.

So, we didn't expel christians out from Turkey nor Turks wasn't the one who wanted to do population exchange. It was Venizelos who desired that since 1913 and he openly said that without the settlement of one million Anatolian christians to Macedonia, they would never keep Macedonia inside Greece with it`s previous ethnic composition. So, you used and abused Anatolian christians to alter Macedonia`s ethnic composition. They were just mere tools for your megali idea myths.


Well, ask the Jews if they agree with you.
What today`s jews or Greeks thinks is irrelevant. I was talking about the truths and whatever they think, it cannot change the facts. Also, since 1947, the creation of Israel, you established a diplomatic relations with them for the first time ever only few months ago. This wasn't without a reason. You better think why that was the case.


"We took your lands 1500 years ago and how dare you take it back!" is what you are saying.
Take it back?

Then we are back to our primary question. What makes you think that you are the same people of 3000 years ago? What kind of false logic this is while it`s a fact that half of your people didn't even speak Greek at all a century ago?

You guys are no different than the eastern European, Russian Khazar Jews who learned Hebrew only after 1950 but claiming that they are the Jews of 2000 BC from Palestine and they supposedly owns the land.

[Romanion]

Take it back?

Then we are back to our primary question. What makes you think that you are the same people of 3000 years ago? What kind of false logic this is while it`s a fact that half of your people didn't even speak Greek at all a century ago?

.

Because we have a continual cultural and geographic lineage. And please provide evidence for the fiction above. I could understand why a Turk (Pomak) would worry about something like this.

[Queen B]

Your analogy fails.

I didn't say that they are christian Turks just because they spoke Turkish. You know i was saying that about half of the 1,1 million christians of population exchange was Turks. If the only criteria would be speaking Turkish, then i would say all of them was Turks.I said half of them because these people`s mothertongue was Turkish as attested by Byzantines and travelers centuries ago and they were totally ignorant to Greek language, didn't even know one word of Greek.
You mean, because they were some ( I wonder how you get numbers like ''half''), that 500 years after Byzantines, didn't continue to speak Greek,weren't Greek?
Not only your number is not correct, but your ''theory'' is wrong.


Their family names was also Turkish. Why do you think millions of current Greek citizens have Turkish names today? and i know that some of them dropped "-ouglu" endings and adopted "-idis, -lis" suffixes in 1924 and changed their Turkish names.

Turkification, DUH....
And -idis is a pontian suffix only.
''Aniston'' has also a non-Greek surname, and doesn't speak a word of Greek.
So, she is not Greek, I guess.


Ohh yes, 1-2 people at most once in 10 years. They are passive and hostages to your Greek parties because they cannot get elected as an independent deputy and they cannot create their own Turkish minority party for the reasons i explained above either.

They are more, actually.
From the Greek parliement, to local authorities, especially in Thrace.


What they taught you in Greek schools and your pedophile priests indoctrinated you is false. After the invasion of Macedonia in 1913, Greece was trying to control vast territories, more than their population can handle. Also there was more than 600.000 Turks in there and this was not something suitable to your hellenic myths. Greek politicians of that era was trying to make population exchange with Anatolian christians since 1913, inclusion of Macedonia to Greece.

So, we didn't expel christians out from Turkey nor Turks wasn't the one who wanted to do population exchange. It was Venizelos who desired that since 1913 and he openly said that without the settlement of one million Anatolian christians to Macedonia, they would never keep Macedonia inside Greece with it`s previous ethnic composition. So, you used and abused Anatolian christians to alter Macedonia`s ethnic composition. They were just mere tools for your megali idea myths.
HAhahahahha :lol: Good story, is this what they teach you in your schools?
:lol:

1) Greeks that resettled in Macedonia, came BEFORE the treaty, and WHEN the Smyrne catastrophe, happened.
The ones that got left in Greece, even after the population exchange, were not forced to live, but some *ahem ahem Pogrom in '55 ahem ahem* happenings forced them to.
2) Benizelos was highly critisized for his ill treatment of the refuges from Smyrne, and his zero support to Pontics. So, its actually the opposite of what you say.



What today`s jews or Greeks thinks is irrelevant. I was talking about the truths and whatever they think, it cannot change the facts. Also, since 1947, the creation of Israel, you established a diplomatic relations with them for the first time ever only few months ago. This wasn't without a reason. You better think why that was the case.
No, its not irrelevant, else you don't know Jews, well.
Let me tell you a story. In Zakynthos, every single Jew, was saved during WW2. Its a known fact, you can search about it.
After this,out of gratitude, Jews have given money in the Catastrophic earhtquake in 53, and help when there is a problem in Zakynthos, after all these years.
This year, while flights for tourism from Tel Aviv , was 1 per week in previous ones, are multiplied, out of support to Greek economy and Zakynthos tourism.
Exactly the same will happen to Thessaloniki. Jews might have many-many faults, and I don't like them (see polls about it), but they don't forget the ones that helped them (neither the ones that did not :lol:)

Also, Benizelos was a Jew himself. He was also the first political leader that suggested the acnowledgement of an Israel country, in 1917.

[Onur]

Because we have a continual cultural and geographic lineage. And please provide evidence for the fiction above. I could understand why a Turk (Pomak) would worry about something like this.
You are the who is dreaming and your so-called continual lineage is the fiction.

Here is one book from 1850, published in London. A diaries of a British philhellene, who came to Athens right after the independence. There are many more diaries and books like this;

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/1367/clipboard03yb.jpg
http://books.google.com/books?id=9wCiFSLmEM4C


Another book from a British scholar;

i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/horrocks.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/horrocks383.png
Page 383


The assimilation of Albanians is still not completed even in 1916 and just as the independence of Greece kingdom in 1820s, Albanians still forms the core of neo-hellenic army after 100 years, in 1916;

http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Albanians%20in%20Greece/Swire.jpg
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Albanians%20in%20Greece/Swire11.jpg


Here is what Americans said about the Greek army in 1914;
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Albanians%20in%20Greece/GreeceandtheHellenes.jpg
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Albanians%20in%20Greece/GreeceandtheHellenes31.jpg
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Albanians%20in%20Greece/GreeceandtheHellenes33.jpg
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Albanians%20in%20Greece/GreeceandtheHellenes34.jpg


This is what the Greek PM Venizelos said in 1920;
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Venizelos/Venizelos.jpg
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Albanians%20in%20Greece/Venizelos346-1.jpg


I myself describe the creation of Greece in 1820s as some kind of religious fanaticism and madness because christian Albanians in Morea killed muslim Albanians and Turks in 1820s and then they denied their Albanian heritage and became newborn Hellenes. Also christian Greeks killed muslim Greeks in Crete laters. All this happened as a result of western European intervention at that time.

[Onur]

About the population exchange of 1923. From a Greek scholar, whose family was also a member of the formerly Turkish christian community in Karaman, central Anatolia;
http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/2661/clipboard01kx.jpg
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/7460/clipboard02ix.jpg
http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=uSeUI9I_ni4C


One million christians gone to Greece in 1923-1924 and ~400.000 of them was these Turkish christians from central Anatolia and not only them, there was other Turkish speaking christians in Blacksea region too, just like the women in the video i posted earlier here.

Here is the 1924 issue of National Geographic magazine. Read the comment down below the 2nd picture;
http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/2545/national33.jpg
So, the assimilation process begun as soon as they stepped in Greece.

[Onur]

And this is an interesting article from the Greek scholar Anastasia Karakasidou again. She relates an event which happened in Aegean Macedonia in 1950s, about a decade after the civil war and this summarizes what happened to the true Macedonians of Greece;

http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/6345/clipboard01lc.jpg
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/1197/clipboard02nvg.jpg

http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=231XALxmFFsC

[Romanion]

You are the who is dreaming and your so-called continual lineage is the fiction.

Here is one book from 1850, published in London. A diaries of a British philhellene, who came to Athens right after the independence. There are many more diaries and books like this;



Another book from a British scholar;



The assimilation of Albanians is still not completed even in 1916 and just as the independence of Greece kingdom in 1820s, Albanians still forms the core of neo-hellenic army after 100 years, in 1916;



Here is what Americans said about the Greek army in 1914;
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Albanians%20in%20Greece/GreeceandtheHellenes.jpg
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Albanians%20in%20Greece/GreeceandtheHellenes31.jpg
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Albanians%20in%20Greece/GreeceandtheHellenes33.jpg
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Albanians%20in%20Greece/GreeceandtheHellenes34.jpg


This is what the Greek PM Venizelos said in 1920;
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Venizelos/Venizelos.jpg
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Albanians%20in%20Greece/Venizelos346-1.jpg


I myself describe the creation of Greece in 1820s as some kind of religious fanaticism and madness because christian Albanians in Morea killed muslim Albanians and Turks in 1820s and then they denied their Albanian heritage and became newborn Hellenes. Also christian Greeks killed muslim Greeks in Crete laters. All this happened as a result of western European intervention at that time.

Of course they talk about Arvanites around Athens, that's where they were most populated in Greece. They served in the army as well and fought for Greek independence. But they were not the majority like you would like to make it seem. And no Western Europe did not create the Greek rebelion, Wealthy Greek intelectuals in the Ottoman empire started the rebellion with the dream to free the Greek peopel from barbaric rule, which they did.

[Romanion]

About the population exchange of 1923. From a Greek scholar, whose family was also a member of the formerly Turkish christian community in Karaman, central Anatolia;
http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/2661/clipboard01kx.jpg
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/7460/clipboard02ix.jpg
http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=uSeUI9I_ni4C


One million christians gone to Greece in 1923-1924 and ~400.000 of them was these Turkish christians from central Anatolia and not only them, there was other Turkish speaking christians in Blacksea region too, just like the women in the video i posted earlier here.

Here is the 1924 issue of National Geographic magazine. Read the comment down below the 2nd picture;
http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/2545/national33.jpg
So, the assimilation process begun as soon as they stepped in Greece.

More propaganda from you. Greeks from Anatolia spoke Greek, just a different dialect. People like the Karamanlides did not speak Greek, but they still wrote in it. Try harder pomak.

[Romanion]

And this is an interesting article from the Greek scholar Anastasia Karakasidou again. She relates an event which happened in Aegean Macedonia in 1950s, about a decade after the civil war and this summarizes what happened to the true Macedonians of Greece;

Um no, exarcate populations were very loyal to the Bulgarian cause, this was to get them to becoem loyal to Greece. Try again Pomak.

[Romanion]

Greek enlightenment; done by Greeks for Greeks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Greek_Enlightenment

Pomaks and other Greek haters need to learn their history. Our country wasn't made by one person (Attaturk, Cento) but by a collective of Greeks wanting their own state. Turks are Muslim peoples from teh Ottoman Empire and Slavo-Macedonians were Bulgarians turned Macedonians by Cento. You guys are mad because Greeks are still around? that's your problem. You guys are mad because from such a small state we manage to spread around the Aegean again? again that's your problem.

[Vojnik]

Greek enlightenment; done by Greeks for Greeks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Greek_Enlightenment

Pomaks and other Greek haters need to learn their history. Our country wasn't made by one person (Attaturk, Cento) but by a collective of Greeks wanting their own state. Turks are Muslim peoples from teh Ottoman Empire and Slavo-Macedonians were Bulgarians turned Macedonians by Cento. You guys are mad because Greeks are still around? that's your problem. You guys are mad because from such a small state we manage to spread around the Aegean again? again that's your problem.

What kind of source is that Romanion, honestly? Wikipedia will never be a reliable source. Make sure you go through the reliable sources Onur has posted, and read them thoroughly to get a proper understanding. Or has the reliable information he has posted stunned you that much?

The modern Greek nation and state is an invention by the west. The people who inhabit modern Greece are a mixture of different ethnic groups, and those are, Turks, Macedonians, Albanians, Gypsies, Bulgarians and Vlachs. Your first king was King Otto of Bavaria. You're current flag was given to you by the wast, it is originally the flag of the British east Indian company, just switched from red to blue.

[Crn Volk]

What kind of source is that Romanion, honestly? Wikipedia will never be a reliable source. Make sure you go through the reliable sources Onur has posted, and read them thoroughly to get a proper understanding. Or has the reliable information he has posted stunned you that much?

The modern Greek nation and state is an invention by the west. The people who inhabit modern Greece are a mixture of different ethnic groups, and those are, Turks, Macedonians, Albanians, Gypsies, Bulgarians and Vlachs. Your first king was King Otto of Bavaria. You're current flag was given to you by the wast, it is originally the flag of the British east Indian company, just switched from red to blue.

Flag of the British East India Company :thumb001:

http://www.rumormillnews.com/pix4/British_East_India_Company_prior1801_copy.jpg

[Romanion]

[QUOTE]What kind of source is that Romanion, honestly? Wikipedia will never be a reliable source. Make sure you go through the reliable sources Onur has posted, and read them thoroughly to get a proper understanding. Or has the reliable information he has posted stunned you that much?

You think the Greke enlightenment is fiction because I posted a link from wikipedia? here is a book:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=RStuXwAACAAJ&dq=Greek+enlightenment&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1AWcT67nA4HG6QHzzsSlDw&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAw

I don't think this will matter to you though because you choose to stay ignorant because it helps you sleep at night. I would be pissed too if I was told one thing my whole life and it turns out to be a lie.



The modern Greek nation and state is an invention by the west. The people who inhabit modern Greece are a mixture of different ethnic groups, and those are, Turks, Macedonians, Albanians, Gypsies, Bulgarians and Vlachs. Your first king was King Otto of Bavaria. You're current flag was given to you by the wast, it is originally the flag of the British east Indian company, just switched from red to blue.

Um, no, the larget minority group in Greece during 1820's was the arvanites, and they were only in Attica and some places in the Peleponesus. King of Greece ws put there by European powers and our current flag is not the original flag.

I've noticed a trend amog Greek haters, they take a historic reality, like say the presence of arvanites, and try to present it in an un-historical method. Only word for this is propaganda. Haters will always hate I guess.

[Crn Volk]

[QUOTE=Vojnik;860737]

You think the Greke enlightenment is fiction because I posted a link from wikipedia? here is a book:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=RStuXwAACAAJ&dq=Greek+enlightenment&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1AWcT67nA4HG6QHzzsSlDw&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAw

I don't think this will matter to you though because you choose to stay ignorant because it helps you sleep at night. I would be pissed too if I was told one thing my whole life and it turns out to be a lie.



Um, no, the larget minority group in Greece during 1820's was the arvanites, and they were only in Attica and some places in the Peleponesus. King of Greece ws put there by European powers and our current flag is not the original flag.

I've noticed a trend amog Greek haters, they take a historic reality, like say the presence of arvanites, and try to present it in an un-historical method. Only word for this is propaganda. Haters will always hate I guess.

Arvanites are still there. I believe some of your proudest Greeks are Arvanites. Some are also Vlachs, Macedonians etc. This is because your nation is an amalgam of nations united by the Greek Orthodox church, the Greek language and the mythological link to ancient Hellas.

[Romanion]

[QUOTE=Romanion;863106]

Arvanites are still there. I believe some of your proudest Greeks are Arvanites. Some are also Vlachs, Macedonians etc. This is because your nation is an amalgam of nations united by the Greek Orthodox church, the Greek language and the mythological link to ancient Hellas.

I think you forget that we are decendent of Byzantium first then Ancient Greece.

[brunette]

Here we go , the Macedonian shit again.

[Romanion]

Here we go , the Macedonian shit again.

Slavs are imaginary, nothing happened in the 7th century, Alexander the Great spoke a slavic language, they have always called themselves Macedonians, the rest of the world is wrong, pigs can fly and I've been to the moon.

[brunette]

Slavs are imaginary, nothing happened in the 7th century, Alexander the Great spoke a slavic language, they have always called themselves Macedonians, the rest of the world is wrong, pigs can fly and I've been to the moon.

LOL if it's not them it's the Albanians Alexander the Great had an Albanian Mother lol.

[Crn Volk]

Learn Macedonian online - for Macedonians in Greece;

http://www.makedonski.org/

[Crn Volk]

The case of the Abecedar;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b2/Abecedar_%28book%29_front_cover.jpg/200px-Abecedar_%28book%29_front_cover.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abecedar

http://www.florina.org/abecedar/001.asp

http://abecedar.blogspot.com.au/

[Queen B]

Learn Macedonian online - for Macedonians in Greece;

http://www.makedonski.org/

I already know. I speak all the Greek dialects , from the places that I have lived.
Macedonian, Zakynthian, Chalkidiciotika .

But, no, I don't want to learn Bulgarian, thanks :thumb001:

[Crn Volk]

I already know. I speak all the Greek dialects , from the places that I have lived.
Macedonian, Zakynthian, Chalkidiciotika .

But, no, I don't want to learn Bulgarian, thanks :thumb001:

Perhaps the Macedonian-Greek dictionary will help you translate your knowledge of the Greek language to the Macedonian language :thumbs up

http://www.florina.org/images/news/dictionary5.gif

[Queen B]

Perhaps the Macedonian-Greek dictionary will help you translate your knowledge of the Greek language to the Macedonian language :thumbs up
http://www.florina.org/images/news/dictionary5.gif
There are plenty of Bulgarian dictionaries, and if I decided to learn Bulgarian, I can find their dictionaries already.
I don't want to learn the Macedonian dialect, I already know it, just like a couple of other Greek dialects.
Thanks for the offer :wink

[rashka]

This song is a very famous Kosovo song that comes from the very southern parts. I see on youtube that Macedonians have this song too.
The dialect is Prizrenski dialect. I think it is something between Serbian and Macedonian.
There are some words that Serbian language does not use. Do you still use any of these words? Not too long ago I translated (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=865092&postcount=150) this song myself for someone on the Serbian music thread. I just sort of figured it out.

Vrbo Vrbice - this version is sung by a Russian group
Just for added information, the image of the embroidery you see in the video is a very typical Serbian/Macedonian pattern. I am not sure who else uses the same design.

rq9rnsMoEnU

[Crn Volk]

There are plenty of Bulgarian dictionaries, and if I decided to learn Bulgarian, I can find their dictionaries already.
I don't want to learn the Macedonian dialect, I already know it, just like a couple of other Greek dialects.
Thanks for the offer :wink

Perhaps you can translate what these guys are saying;

http://www.edessavoden.gr/

[Queen B]

Perhaps you can translate what these guys are saying;

http://www.edessavoden.gr/

too much bs to spend my time on :lol:

[Vojnik]

This song is a very famous Kosovo song that comes from the very southern parts. I see on youtube that Macedonians have this song too.
The dialect is Prizrenski dialect. I think it is something between Serbian and Macedonian.
There are some words that Serbian language does not use. Do you still use any of these words? Not too long ago I translated (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=865092&postcount=150) this song myself for someone on the Serbian music thread. I just sort of figured it out.

Vrbo Vrbice - this version is sung by a Russian group
Just for added information, the image of the embroidery you see in the video is a very typical Serbian/Macedonian pattern. I am not sure who else uses the same design.

rq9rnsMoEnU

Nice song.

It sounds to me to be closer to Macedonian then Serbian.

"Vrbice, vrbo zelena,
š'o si se rano razvila?
Ne li si gajle imala,
ne li te majka karala?"

"Vrbice, vrbo zelena,
ovčara sum go imala.
Do ponoć sum go čekala,
od ponoć sum prespivala."

'Врбице' (vrbice), Врбо (vrbo) is a Macedonian word which means 'shrub' in English, I don't think it is a Serbian word.

'Шо' (š'o) is a Macedonian word meaning 'what' in English (in Serbian it is ussually 'sta'. 'š'o' is the shorter version of 'sto' and is actually used mostly in Southern Macedonian dialects, it's odd to see it in a northern dialect.

'Карала' (karala) basically means to tell someone off in Macedonian, not sure if it's in Serbian.

'Гајле' (gajle) is a Macedonian word, not sure if any other dialects use this word or even understand it, it means 'care' in English.

'Сум' (sum) is the Macedonian way of saying I am, in Serbian it is 'sam'.

The rest of the words in that song, other then the ones I mentioned are shared by both in the Macedonian language and the Serbian language, except for one, and that is 'ponoć' which means 'midnight' in English, In Macedonian it is 'полноќ' 'polnok'.

Here is a Macedonian song that would be of the same dialect of the song you posted:

oFZapza23YU

[morski]

It sounds to me to be closer to Macedonian then Serbian.


It's actually Torlak (A transitional group of dialects between Bulgarian/Macedonian and Serbo-Croatian, but still Analytical Balkano-Slavic, hence closer to the former).



'Врбице' (vrbice), Врбо (vrbo) is a Macedonian word which means 'shrub' in English, I don't think it is a Serbian word.

Върба - willow



'Шо' (š'o) is a Macedonian word meaning 'what' in English (in Serbian it is ussually 'sta'. 'š'o' is the shorter version of 'sto' and is actually used mostly in Southern Macedonian dialects, it's odd to see it in a northern dialect.

Шо, Що, Какво, Кво, Ко - all present in the numerous Bulgarian dialects, the standard is Какво.



'Карала' (karala) basically means to tell someone off in Macedonian, not sure if it's in Serbian.


From Карам се (на някого/някому) - to tell someone off; or Карам (drive, take to, urge/induce)



'Гајле' (gajle) is a Macedonian word, not sure if any other dialects use this word or even understand it, it means 'care' in English.


Present in Bulgaria as well.




'Сум' (sum) is the Macedonian way of saying I am, in Serbian it is 'sam'.


Съм




Nice song.


Indeed.:thumb001:

[Crn Volk]

More on the Torlak dialect;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torlakian_dialect

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/Torlak_dialects_map.png/300px-Torlak_dialects_map.png

[Crn Volk]

too much bs to spend my time on :lol:

hah. the truth hurts :thumbs up

[Queen B]

hah. the truth hurts :thumbs up
Truth of what?
:confused:
No Sokol, I don't want to spend even 5 minutes, to translate from Greek to English, a propagandist site by a bunch of losers, posted only for provocation reasons ;)

But I would do it , if you translate to me the following videos :coffee:

JBB8UjOHG_8

G1oFAomcs6k

snt7gobidO0&lr

[Crn Volk]

It must hurt, that even after the greek government has tried to ban this organisation and refuse it's registration many times over, it continues to operate in Voden/Edessa. So now have an ethnic Macedonian organisation in Lerin and in Voden....next stop Kostur...

[Queen B]

It must hurt, that even after the greek government has tried to ban this organisation and refuse it's registration many times over, it continues to operate in Voden/Edessa. So now have an ethnic Macedonian organisation in Lerin and in Voden....next stop Kostur...

Are these any Bulgarian villages?

There are not such places in Greece, sorry :coffee:

[Crn Volk]

Are these any Bulgarian villages?

There are not such places in Greece, sorry :coffee:

No. Ethnic Macedonian. You know the ones.

[Queen B]

No. Ethnic Macedonian. You know the ones.
Sorry, there are no villages with those Bulgarian names in Greece.
Come and have a look yourself :wink

[Crn Volk]

Sorry, there are no villages with those Bulgarian names in Greece.
Come and have a look yourself :wink

That's because they're cities, not villages. Perhaps you're not familiar with the older names. Here's something that might help;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Former_toponyms_in_Greece

Greece was so busy after 1913 in it's Hellenisation efforts.....very successfull, but not completely. We are still here;

http://www.ethnologue.com/maps/grma_eth.jpg

[Queen B]

That's because they're cities, not villages. Perhaps you're not familiar with the older names. Here's something that might help;


Older names? :lol00002::lol00002::lol00002::loco::loco::loco:


http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120213055636/uncyclopedia/images/5/52/Double-facepalm.jpg

Εxactly because I am familiar with their older names I am answering to this:

Kastoria - 6th centure AD
Edessa - 3rd Century BC
Florina - Byzantine times.

That's their older names, that they also have now.

PS: Think and learn before you start parroting bullshit :wink

[Crn Volk]

Older names? :lol00002::lol00002::lol00002::loco::loco::loco:



Εxactly because I am familiar with their older names I am answering to this:

Kastoria - 6th centure AD
Edessa - 3rd Century BC
Florina - Byzantine times.

That's their older names, that they also have now.

PS: Think and learn before you start parroting bullshit :wink

Yes, I know. As I said greece was busy hellenising these regions after 1913, trying to wipe out centuries of history. That's OK we still refer to them as they were known for centuries - Kostur, Voden, Lerin etc...

[Queen B]

Yes, I know. As I said greece was busy hellenising these regions after 1913, trying to wipe out centuries of history. That's OK we still refer to them as they were known for centuries - Kostur, Voden, Lerin etc...
You know that these are their real names since their existence? Nice then. Case closed :wink

[Crn Volk]

Some more on the Kostur dialect of the Macedonian language;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kostur_dialect

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Macedonian_Slavic_dialects.png

Greeks have tried to wipe it out, but it still exists....

[poiuytrewq0987]

Yes, I know. As I said greece was busy hellenising these regions after 1913, trying to wipe out centuries of history. That's OK we still refer to them as they were known for centuries - Kostur, Voden, Lerin etc...

Their Pontic Greek settlers did a lot to displace Macedonians who have lived in the region for centuries but soldier on we will.

[El Gre]

Yes, I know. As I said greece was busy hellenising these regions after 1913, trying to wipe out centuries of history. That's OK we still refer to them as they were known for centuries - Kostur, Voden, Lerin etc...

Typical amateur Macedonian Slav internet warrior.

Lerin is just a corruption of Hlerinon(full of green vegetation) Florina is the latinized version. Because slavic speakers from that part cannot make the H sound Hlerinon became Lerin to them . Basically its a corruption.

Kostur is most likely another corruption of Kastoria. Kastor = beavers , they were plentiful in the lake before you Slavs arrived.

Edessa was around long before the Slavs came and saw waterfalls and decided to call it Voden. Anyway all sources from the late 18 early 19 century call the city with the Greek ending Vodhena .

Please tell us what does Kailar mean in 'macedonian' ?? LOLski


Their Pontic Greek settlers did a lot to displace Macedonians who have lived in the region for centuries but soldier on we will.

Another novice, The Greeks from Anatolia displaced the Turks who left Macedonia, nobody displaced you donkeys. Yes many of your ilk willingly left in a voluntary exchange of population , where did they go , yup you guessed it Maika Bulgaria!!!

[Vojnik]

Sorry, there are no villages with those Bulgarian names in Greece.
Come and have a look yourself :wink

Yes, those original Macedonian names of villages and cities in today's northern Greece are no longer in use, but that does not change the fact that they were once called as such by the local population, until they were forcibly Hellenised. And then came in the Christian Turks in there thousounds, they were Hellenised and told that they were the children of Plato and Socrates :D.

[Queen B]

Yes, those original Macedonian names of villages and cities in today's northern Greece are no longer in use, but that does not change the fact that they were once called as such by the local population, until they were forcibly Hellenised. And then came in the Christian Turks in there thousounds, they were Hellenised and told that they were the children of Plato and Socrates :D.
:loco:
Look again when Kastoria, Florina and Edessa were first used, and for how long for that areas.
:thumb001:

[Vojnik]

:loco:
Look again when Kastoria, Florina and Edessa were first used, and for how long for that areas.
:thumb001:

I read your Wikipedia inspired post, and I think it is bullshit!

Old photo of Voden. And as you seee underneath the photo it has the real name:
http://i47.tinypic.com/2cieel0.jpg

dandelion, translate these inscriptions that are on the Greek parlement building, are they Greek names?
http://i47.tinypic.com/352pteh.jpg

I'll just do it for you.

ΚΛΕΙΣΟΥΡΑ > KLEISOURA

ΟΣΤΡΟΒΙΤΣΑ > OSTROVITSA

ΠΟΓΡΑΔΕΤΣ > POGRADETS.


http://i47.tinypic.com/2przips.jpg

ΠΕΤΣΟΒΟ > PETSOVO..

ΝΕΥΡΟΚΟΠΙ > NEVROKOPI.

ΜΠΑΝΙΤΣΑ > BANITSA.

[Queen B]

I read your Wikipedia inspired post, and I think it is bullshit!

Of course you think :icon_rolleyes:

What's more funny in all of your stupid claims is that:
- ''Kostur'' derives from Kastoria
- ''Lerin'' derives from the Byzantine Hlerinon (from which Florina derives as well) :lol:
-Edessa, by scholars, is Phyrgian word.It was called Aiges, and later Edessa for up until Middle ages. In the Quinisext Council (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinisext_Council), Isidor takes part as ''"ελάχιστος επίσκοπος Εδεσσηνών πόλεως". :wink

Painful much? To see that you 1) either support a Greek name or 2) The Greek name pre-existed so the place is just renamed to the original one? :wink

Let's see their old names, before ''Greeks changing them in 1910something.
A map from 1600
http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/7825/mapgreece1600nwkt0.jpg
(yes, it says Voden in Edessa, but guess what...)
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/1913/vodenakastorialeakesg9.jpg
http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/6333/imperialgazetteergeograao5.jpg
Some other historians back before... bad Greeks ''changed'' the name of those places :lol: When you said? Almost 100 years after those were published?
Omg, bitchy Greeks, how DARE you change these ''original'' names :eek:

----------------------
Your post just shows how ignorant you are , and how much copy-pasting from Fyromian propaganda sites, without even searching a bit.
Those inscriptions are about places that Greek soldiers have died/fought.


ΝΕΥΡΟΚΟΠΙ > NEVROKOPI.
ΚΛΕΙΣΟΥΡΑ > KLEISOURA

Νevrokopi is a totally Greek word!
Kleisoura is also a Greek word (at least exist in Greek, too, with a Greek etymology) , but also there is a Latin word of this as well.
There are also several villages with that name, including one in... Kalamata :lol:


ΠΟΓΡΑΔΕΤΣ > POGRADETS.
Ιf I am not mistaken Pogradec is in Albanian? :rolleyes2:

The un-known soldier tomb, in Syntagma, has places that Greeks have died from:
1st and 2nd Balkan war, 1st WW, Greco-Turkish war, Russia, WW2, Korea, Cyprus
Many of the places are not even located in Greece :lol: , from those that are and had bulgarian names,some still have them, such as Rupel

[morski]

Klisura = Greco-Vlach (has entered Bulgarian, though and means gorge), Nevrokop = totally Greek.

Pogradets from Podgradec = literally - beneath the town. Bulgarian.

Found an interesting quote:


Did the word 'theme' come to stand for both the province as well as the garrison within it, then the same was the case for the 'turma'. The turma, commanded by a turmarch, was merely smaller unit within a theme. Further there was also the clissura, commanded by a clissurarch, which was a small garrison protecting one or more fortified mountain passes.

http://www.roman-empire.net/army/army.html

[Queen B]

Klisura = Greco-Vlach, Nevrokop = totally Greek.

Pogradets from Podgradec = literally - beneath the town. Bulgarian.

As I said, there are 2 etymologies, at least as I know, about Kleisoura
I don't know anything about Vlach, but if you have info, please post :)
I only know that the village was also called VlachoKleisoura in Ottoman census

1) From Latin clausura, (http://www.myetymology.com/latin/clausura.html)
2) Greek Kleisoura / Kleisoria = Kleinw (close) - oros (mountain)

For the rest, you answered :wink

[morski]

Yeah, under Vlach I meant the possible Latin root of the word.

[Queen B]

Yeah, under Vlach I meant the possible Latin root of the word.
Οh, I see. I don't know from which one took the name. The word exists in both languages, and makes sense (the same sense) in both as well. I wouldn't be suprised if its from the Latin,

[El Gre]

Old photo of Voden. And as you seee underneath the photo it has the real name:

It clearly says VODENA so why do you call in Voden? That (A) is there for a reason.

My favourite is Veria, they dont have a name for it so they simply call it Ver.

Veria = Bring Water . Pher (to bring) in Macedonian PH>V so it becomes Veria.
A very REAL Macedonian toponym .

What about Serres , Drama and Kavala ? You have real names for them too?
LOLski How about Thasos, oh yeah its Tasos because you Slavs cant make the TH sound . :p

[morski]

It clearly says VODENA so why do you call in Voden? That (A) is there for a reason.

My favourite is Veria, they dont have a name for it so they simply call it Ver.

Veria = Bring Water . Pher (to bring) in Macedonian PH>V so it becomes Veria.
A very REAL Macedonian toponym .

What about Serres , Drama and Kavala ? You have real names for them too?
LOLski How about Thasos, oh yeah its Tasos because you Slavs cant make the TH sound . :p


Only Serres is slightly changed, otherwise we use the same names.

Сяр или Сер, изписване преди 1945 година: Сѣръ = Σέρρες.

Драма (на гръцки: Δράμα). It may be from Thracian *drōma, *dràma meaning river.

Кава̀ла (на гръцки: Καβάλα). Medieval Bulgarian name is Morunets.

[El Gre]

^^

I believe Drama comes from Greek Hydrama.

What about the cities in Thrace? Do you have a slavic name for Xanthi, Komotini and Alexandroupoli?? I think they might of had a Turkish name, one was Dedeagach, but no sure which one, im not an expert on Thrace :)

If im not mistaken , Constantinople = Tsarigrad in Bulgarian ??

Another interesting fact is how some of the older Western Bulgarians call the Aegean sea 'BeloMore' after the 40's this newer name came 'Egejsko More'.

The Belo More is called so by Bulgarians because of the calm water as opposed to the rough waters of the Chorne More .

[brunette]

Macedonians Greeks

Former yugos Pontic Greeks mixed with Southern Slavs.

[morski]

^^

I believe Drama comes from Greek Hydrama.

What about the cities in Thrace? Do you have a slavic name for Xanthi, Komotini and Alexandroupoli?? I think they might of had a Turkish name, one was Dedeagach, but no sure which one, im not an expert on Thrace :)

If im not mistaken , Constantinople = Tsarigrad in Bulgarian ??

Another interesting fact is how some of the older Western Bulgarians call the Aegean sea 'BeloMore' after the 40's this newer name came 'Egejsko More'.

The Belo More is called so by Bulgarians because of the calm water as opposed to the rough waters of the Chorne More .


We don't have own names for those, we use either the Turkish names or the Greek ones.

Дедеагач Dedeagach Αλεξανδρούπολη Александруполи

Гюмюрджина Gyumyurdzhina Κομοτηνή Комотини

Ксанти Ksanti Ξάνθη

[Yaroslav]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Macedonians_on_a_french_map.jpg

Here is a map that shows smooth transition between Serbian and Bulgarian languages. Macedonian is listed as separate, but Serbian was spoken in north western parts (including Skopje). Even though this is ethnic map the languages contrast with it.

[morski]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Macedonians_on_a_french_map.jpg

Here is a map that shows smooth transition between Serbian and Bulgarian languages. Macedonian is listed as separate, but Serbian was spoken in north western parts (including Skopje). Even though this is ethnic map the languages contrast with it.

The map is inaccurate.

[Yaroslav]

The map is inaccurate.

Why? Could you post "reliable" map?

[poiuytrewq0987]

The map is inaccurate.

Macedonians who sided with Bulgaria were only Bulgarophiles. We never had a Bulgarian national consciousness; only the choosing of the sides during the break up of the Ottoman Empire did we gain a national consciousness that strongly identified with one of the three Orthodox nations.

Bulgarians only regained their national consciousness during the Bulgarian Renaissance. Compared to Macedonians who never had a renaissance because we didn't have a medieval state to remember about and Alexander the Great was too far back in history for a bunch of Balkan peasants to remember about.

[morski]

Why? Could you post "reliable" map?

The ethnic border between Bulgarians and Serbs used to pass through Zaychar, Krushevec, Prokuple, Medvedzha, Vranja. You can see the wiki article on Torlaks and this: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42261.

Of course that was the case in the late XIX c. At the present time Serb Torlaks consider themselves Serbs, but their dialect still betrays their closeness to other Analytical Slavs like the Bulgarians and македонствуващите.

[Yaroslav]

The ethnic border between Bulgarians and Serbs used to pass through Zaychar, Krushevec, Prokuple, Medvedzha, Vranja. You can see the wiki article on Torlaks and this: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42261.

Of course that was the case in the late XIX c. At the present time Serb Torlaks consider themselves Serbs, but their dialect still betrays their closeness to other Analytical Slavs like the Bulgarians and македонствуващите.

Torlaks are transitional people, there is no ethnic or linguistic border between Serbs and Bulgarians. Some maps show them to be Serbs and some Bulgarians... Technically both are correct as even the people there changed their identities as they were under different state.

It is hypocritical for Bulgaria to claim East Serbia on ethnic lines since Serbs have just as legitimate claim on Western Bulgaria.

I support the present borders between Serbia and Bulgaria.

[morski]

Torlaks are transitional people, there is no ethnic or linguistic border between Serbs and Bulgarians. Some maps show them to be Serbs and some Bulgarians... Technically both are correct as even the people there changed their identities as they were under different state.

It is hypocritical for Bulgaria to claim East Serbia on ethnic lines since Serbs have just as legitimate claim on Western Bulgaria.

I support the present borders between Serbia and Bulgaria.


The ethnic and linguistic border is pretty clear and unambiguous. If they curse your mother it's Bulgaria, if they curse your God - Serbia.:D

Torlak dialects are analytical. Analytical Slavic = Bulgarian. :rolleyes:

Who are you and what makes it matter what you support!?

[Yaroslav]

The ethnic and linguistic border is pretty clear and unambiguous. If they curse your mother it's Bulgaria, if they curse your God - Serbia.:D

Torlak dialects are analytical. Analytical Slavic = Bulgarian. :rolleyes:

Who are you and what makes it matter what you support!?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/Torlak_dialects_map.png

You view this orange area as Bulgarian?

[morski]

It used to be.

Serbs concentrated their efforts at expanding South and South-East into ethnic Bulgarian teritory only because they were blocked by the Austro-Hungarians in taking over the lands populated by Serbs West and North-West of their newly established state in the XIX c.

[Yaroslav]

It used to be.

Serbs concentrated their efforts at expanding South and South-East into ethnic Bulgarian teritory only because they were blocked by the Austro-Hungarians in taking over the lands populated by Serbs West and North-West of their newly established state in the XIX c.

Do you have historical proof that those areas were Bulgarian?

Maps of Bulgarian Empire don't count, I can post maps of Serbian, Macedonian, and Greek empires, that doesn't prove they were ethnic borders.

[morski]

Do you have historical proof that those areas were Bulgarian?

Maps of Bulgarian Empire don't count, I can post maps of Serbian, Macedonian, and Greek empires, that doesn't prove they were ethnic borders.

For more info on the matter see:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48876

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42261

It is presicely the Serbs who use as their most praised argument in this regard historic maps of "Tsar"(a Bulgarian term) Dusan's empire. We rely mostly on scientific linguistic maps based on XIX c. Balkans' reality, all that backed up with empiric material.


It is hypocritical for Bulgaria to claim East Serbia on ethnic lines since Serbs have just as legitimate claim on Western Bulgaria.

It can be perceived as hypocritical only in the context of Serbs winning(or siding with the winning party) most of the wars waged between both countries for those particular territories. And the real hypocricy here is the Serbs portraying the Bulgarians as the backstabbers, concidering that they blatantly disregarded the self-determination of their brothers the Orthodox Slavic Bulgarians who were only correcting the unjust ruling of the "Great Powers" of Europe:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbo-Bulgarian_War.


On 6 September 1885, Bulgaria and the semi-autonomous Ottoman province of Eastern Rumelia declared their unification in the city of Plovdiv. Eastern Rumelia, whose population was predominantly ethnic Bulgarian, had been an artificial creation of the Berlin Congress seven years earlier. The unification took place against the will of the Great Powers, including Russia. The Austro-Hungarian Empire had been expanding its influence in the Balkans and was particularly opposed. Bulgaria's western neighbor Serbia also feared this would diminish its position in the Balkans. In addition, Serbia's ruler Milan Obrenović IV was annoyed that Serbian opposition leaders like Nikola Pašić, who had escaped persecution after the Timok Rebellion, had found asylum in Bulgaria.

Fear is a disease indeed.

I presume I don't need to put to you the definition of the word hypocrycy.

And to end permanently my interaction with you - your nickname is a joke! There is no such thing as Orthodox unity. All Orthodox churches are national. I reckon you are familiar with the concept of Caesaro-Papism. Historically, every Ganyo with a handfull of swords on his side wanted to be the Roman emperor in this cultural matrix (Orthodoxy).

[morski]

Torlaks are transitional people, there is no ethnic or linguistic border between Serbs and Bulgarians. Some maps show them to be Serbs and some Bulgarians... Technically both are correct as even the people there changed their identities as they were under different state.

It is hypocritical for Bulgaria to claim East Serbia on ethnic lines since Serbs have just as legitimate claim on Western Bulgaria.

I support the present borders between Serbia and Bulgaria.

Forgot to comment on this one jewel of yours - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Outlands


The Western (Bulgarian) Outlands (Bulgarian: Западни (български) покрайнини, transliterated: Zapadni (Balgarski) pokraynini) is a term used by Bulgarians to describe several territorially separate regions located in southeastern Serbia and eastern Macedonia which at one point passed directly from Bulgaria to Yugoslavia. The territories in question were ceded by Bulgaria to the Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats and Slovenes in 1920 as a result of the Treaty of Neuilly,[1] following the First World War. According to the Yugoslav census of 1991, two of the largest cities in the Western Outlands, Bosilegrad and Dimitrovgrad, were populated primarily by Bulgarians.

Today, the territories referred to by the term cover an area of 1,545 km² in Serbia. In 1919 the same territories corresponded to the following parts of the Bulgarian okrugs: Kyustendil, 661 km², Tsaribrod (nowadays Dimitrovgrad) 418 km², Tran 278 km², Kula 172 km² and Vidin 17 km².

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians_in_Serbia

[Vojnik]

1875 - Georgi Pulevski, History and Dictionary

Sample sentence (Polog Dialect):

Народ се вељит, људи који се од еден род и који зборувајет еднаков збор, и који живувајет и се другарат еден со други, и који имајет једнакви обичаји и песни и весеља, тије људите ји викајет народ, а место во које живуват народ се вељит отечество од тои народ. Така и Македонциве се народ и местово њивно је Македонија.


Narod ce veljit, ljudi koji se od eden rod i koji zboruvjet ednakov zbor, i koji zhivuvjet i se drugarat eden so drugi, i koji imajet jednakvi obichaji i pesni i veselja, tie ljudite ji vikajet narod, a mesto vo koje zhivuvat narod se veljit otechestvo od toi narod. Taka i Makedontsive se narod i mestovo njivno je Makedonija.


What do we call a nation? People who are of the same origin and who speak the same
words and who live and make friends of each other, who have the same customs and songs and entertainment are what we call a nation, and the place where
that people lives is called the people’s country. Thus the Macedonians also are a nation and the place which is theirs is called Macedonia.

[Bugarash]

Do you have historical proof that those areas were Bulgarian?

Maps of Bulgarian Empire don't count, I can post maps of Serbian, Macedonian, and Greek empires, that doesn't prove they were ethnic borders.

Macedonian empire:D
nice one

Do you have proof that there are Russians in Moscow?
That there is a mosque in Mecca?

[Novi Pazar]

I want the Bulgarian members to explain to me why the speakers of Tran or Vidin etc.....use ga and gu instead of go and gi, u instead of v?

[ioan assen]

Novi, you want to explain why Bulgarians say U instead of V??????????????????????????????
Bulgarians, have you ever used "U DOMA" instead of "V DOMA". Do you know that according to this genuis we never ever use "U DOMA"??????????????? I mean come on. How can people be that STUPID and UNPREPARED??????????? At least if you use something as an argument you can research it because you end up sounding like an idiot like in this very case?

[Novi Pazar]

^ Ioan before making some silly comments, l advise you to first take me seriously. Have a look at the following:

The preposition (and prefix) "у" ("u") is used instead of "в" ("v"). Example: Shopski у градо (u grado) vs standard Bulgarian в града (v grada) (in town)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shopi

You will notice that the Bulgarianised Shopi inhabit approximately 30% of Bulgaria.

[ioan assen]

Novi, before posting serbian propaganda I propose you use google translator. When you claim we never use U you have to face the consequences when you are exposed as serbian propagandist and liar.
Shopi are bulgarized. So you can bulgarize a Bulgarian. Example that Serbian propaganda is more than stupid. Thats why only children (and Novi) believe in it.

[Novi Pazar]

I provide you a source, you don't debate it but attack me. This isn't Serbian propaganda, l'm stating it as it is, once more:

The preposition (and prefix) "у" ("u") is used instead of "в" ("v"). Example: Shopski у градо (u grado) vs standard Bulgarian в града (v grada) (in town)

The personal pronouns for the third person are masc. on (он), fem. ona (она); neut. ono (оно), pl. oni (они).

The personal pronoun for the first person singular is ja (я) instead of az (аз).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shopi

So why do the Bulgarianised Serbs known as Shopi say the English word (IN) as U but not in Bulgarian fashion V?

[Vojnik]

Novi Pazar, to me the Shop dialect seems to be a even cross between standard Serbian, Bulgarian and Macedonian. the switch between 'v' to 'u' does not make it a Serbian dialect.

[ioan assen]

U think I need source TO KNOW MY MOTHER LANGUAGE??? How old are you? 10. Any Bulgarian would tell u we use U just like V. Go read your USELESS PROPAGANDA "sources".

[Novi Pazar]

Novi Pazar, to me the Shop dialect seems to be a even cross between standard Serbian, Bulgarian and Macedonian. the switch between 'v' to 'u' does not make it a Serbian dialect.

I understand you brate, l agree that language should not be used as a reason to link people (ethnicities) to a certain nation, its culture, migration and history. In the Balkans, slavic has become many dialects from a mother of all. However, what l'm doing here is being a counter-weight to ridiculous claims being made by Bulgarians.

Get the Bulgarians to explain why Torlakian/Shopi use On, Ona, Oni not Toj, Tya, Toe etc....

[Novi Pazar]

U think I need source TO KNOW MY MOTHER LANGUAGE??? How old are you? 10. Any Bulgarian would tell u we use U just like V. Go read your USELESS PROPAGANDA "sources".

So the Serbo-Croatian *U* is Bulgarian, you are deludued Ioan! Serbo-Croats don't use V nor do Torlakian/Shopi say MlYAko but MlEko.

[Vojnik]

I understand you brate, l agree that language should not be used as a reason to link people (ethnicities) to a certain nation, its culture, migration and history. In the Balkans, slavic has become many dialects from a mother of all. However, what l'm doing here is being a counter-weight to ridiculous claims being made by Bulgarians.

Get the Bulgarians to explain why Torlakian/Shopi use On, Ona, Oni not Toj, Tya, Toe etc....

Well that's fair enough. In Macedonian we use... mas: Toj, Onaj. fem: Taa, Ona. And we also use Oni.

[Midori]

Well that's fair enough. In Macedonian we use... mas: Toj, Onaj. fem: Taa, Ona. And we also use Oni.

We say ''On'' in Skopje.. ''Onaj'' is used in Western Macedonian dialects.

[Alexq]

Macedonian empire:D
nice one

Do you have proof that there are Russians in Moscow?
That there is a mosque in Mecca?

why do u laugh? Alexander's empire was called "Macedonian empire" all until englishmen J. G. Droysen in mid 19th century dubbed it to be called hellenistic

[iNird]

This is just a thread showing information on the Macedonian language and dialects. I will start off with maps.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/linguisticmap.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/linguisticmap1.png


http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/macedonian_dialects.png
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/macedonian_dialects-01.png

http://macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/416-2.png
Taken from the book “The Indo-European Languages” edited by Anna Giacalone Ramat and Paul Ramat, 1998, page 416.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/dijalektickamapa.jpg
Source: "A Historical Phonology Of the Macedonian Language" by Blazhe Koneski

This map shows the distribution of the Macedonian dialects within Macedonia

So someone from Bitola speaks like someone from Skopje? Interesting......

[Crn Volk]

So someone from Bitola speaks like someone from Skopje? Interesting......

essentially yes, although Skopjani have more 'Serbisms' present...

[Zaycev]

Maps of Bulgarian Empire don't count, I can post maps of Serbian, Macedonian, and Greek empires, that doesn't prove they were ethnic borders.


:confused:

[wvwvw]

why do u laugh? Alexander's empire was called "Macedonian empire" all until englishmen J. G. Droysen in mid 19th century dubbed it to be called hellenistic

Ancient Macedonia was never part of Vardaska (Fyrom). Real Macedonia lies in Greece:

http://i61.tinypic.com/w0mhz5.jpg
Map of Ancient Macedonia. 95% of Ancient Macedonia still lies in Greece. The region above macedonia (Fyrom) was known as Vardaska.

Regions of Ancient Macedonia:
http://www.macedonia.com/english/history/regions1.html

And the real name of the area above Greece inhabited by the West Bulgarians is Vardaska.
Fyrom is a fake country that hijacked the name and history of Ancient macedonians. As late as 1946 Fyrom was known as Vardaska

http://i61.tinypic.com/28hnec5.jpg

"In 1931 Yugoslavia was reorganized into 9 regions (Banovinas). The southern region of Yugoslavia, including today's FYROM, was named as Vardaska Banovina (or Vardaria). That was the original name of the area of FYROM, when it was first created, inside Yugoslavia."

In 1946 it was renamed to Macedonia, the same name as the Greek province of Greece (where real Macedonia is). They clearly aimed in accessing the Aegean Sea, a priviledge that they had lost after the 1st World War. On their side they had the Russians who wanted to gain access in the area. They proposed the creation of a communistic state in Macedonia which they planned to annex in the future.

Fyrom continues to have territorial claims against Greece:

http://history-of-macedonia.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/primary_school_fyrom.jpg

Notice how they include a huge chunk of Northern Greece in their map. They indoctrinate their children from a small age that Ancient macedonians had nothing to do with Greeks, and indoctrinate them to hate Greeks.

Fact is that Macedonians have never associated themselves with anything other than Greek. Slavs,Turks or Bulgarians were NEVER characterised as “Macedonians” in Byzantine, Ancient, and foreign Sources.

http://www.history-of-macedonia.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/slavs_and_macedonians_byzantium.jpg

The two terms, Macedonian, do not always have the same significance: they coincide only to the extend that they refer to a geographical concept.

The term Μαcedonian also was to a considerable extend used in its geographical sense, when it designated a Byzantine inhabitant of Macedonia. Since, however, it could at the same time have other, non-geographical, connotations (racial, family, etc.). it does not appear blindly to follow the successive administrate changes effected by the central authority.

It is characteristic that those who from time to time are designated as Μacedonian are always members of Byzantine society or the Byzantine army, speaking the same language and apparently following the same failh, and that they never appear to turn, as the head of a certain group, against ihe Byzantine state.
(as was the case with Bulgarians)

In this sense, the term Μακεδών could be applied lo a person who was not of Macedonian descent. The characteristic example here is that of the Emperor Basil I, who is clearly described as being descended “from the Armenian nation“: This however, did not stop the Byzantines from calling him a Macedonian.
e) This category does not appear to include the more recent immigrants to Macedonia, evidently because they retained their own ethnic particularity (language, religion, culture, etc.) and, more important still, their independence from the Byzantine rule. Thus, for example, in no case could any Bulgars, Slavs or Turks who were known to have settled in the region after a certain period (and who, indeed, became the permanent residents) ever be described as Μacedones

An interesting case of this refusal to use the term Μαcedon, as a descriptor for local, generally Slav, rulers, is that of Tsar Samuel. Samuel who came from the Western Macedonian district of Ochrid and who brought all Macedonia under his rule in the late 10th centure and early 11th century, was never called Μακeδών (=Macedonian), either by the Byzantines or by local Slavo-Bulgarian sources.

[wvwvw]

In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:

"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)

[morski]

Plateau, you are wasting your time. They don't care about the facts. They are in effect an Orwellian 1984 type of society. Their leaders control the present by controlling the past , all inconvenient historical facts are either obscured or spun so a continuity narrative going back to the first apes is retroactively fitted to their own present-day artificial Macedonianness. The ones who wake up and start questioning the fake narrative are being immediately ostracised by the rest and intimidated into conformity, back in the day it was done in political prisons, nowadays it's character assassination by the media.

[Kastrioti1443]

LOOOOOOOOOL WHAT A RIDICULOUS THREAD.

[Machete]

It's only your interpretation haters

[Zaycev]

It's only your interpretation haters

LMFAO are you fucking thick?

[Machete]

LMFAO are you fucking thick?

No, are you?

[Alexq]

Ancient Macedonia was never part of Vardaska (Fyrom). Real Macedonia lies in Greece:

http://i61.tinypic.com/w0mhz5.jpg
Map of Ancient Macedonia. 95% of Ancient Macedonia still lies in Greece. The region above macedonia (Fyrom) was known as Vardaska.

Regions of Ancient Macedonia:
http://www.macedonia.com/english/history/regions1.html

And the real name of the area above Greece inhabited by the West Bulgarians is Vardaska.
Fyrom is a fake country that hijacked the name and history of Ancient macedonians. As late as 1946 Fyrom was known as Vardaska

http://i61.tinypic.com/28hnec5.jpg

"In 1931 Yugoslavia was reorganized into 9 regions (Banovinas). The southern region of Yugoslavia, including today's FYROM, was named as Vardaska Banovina (or Vardaria). That was the original name of the area of FYROM, when it was first created, inside Yugoslavia."

In 1946 it was renamed to Macedonia, the same name as the Greek province of Greece (where real Macedonia is). They clearly aimed in accessing the Aegean Sea, a priviledge that they had lost after the 1st World War. On their side they had the Russians who wanted to gain access in the area. They proposed the creation of a communistic state in Macedonia which they planned to annex in the future.

Fyrom continues to have territorial claims against Greece:

http://history-of-macedonia.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/primary_school_fyrom.jpg

Notice how they include a huge chunk of Northern Greece in their map. They indoctrinate their children from a small age that Ancient macedonians had nothing to do with Greeks, and indoctrinate them to hate Greeks.

Fact is that Macedonians have never associated themselves with anything other than Greek. Slavs,Turks or Bulgarians were NEVER characterised as “Macedonians” in Byzantine, Ancient, and foreign Sources.

http://www.history-of-macedonia.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/slavs_and_macedonians_byzantium.jpg

The two terms, Macedonian, do not always have the same significance: they coincide only to the extend that they refer to a geographical concept.

The term Μαcedonian also was to a considerable extend used in its geographical sense, when it designated a Byzantine inhabitant of Macedonia. Since, however, it could at the same time have other, non-geographical, connotations (racial, family, etc.). it does not appear blindly to follow the successive administrate changes effected by the central authority.

It is characteristic that those who from time to time are designated as Μacedonian are always members of Byzantine society or the Byzantine army, speaking the same language and apparently following the same failh, and that they never appear to turn, as the head of a certain group, against ihe Byzantine state.
(as was the case with Bulgarians)

In this sense, the term Μακεδών could be applied lo a person who was not of Macedonian descent. The characteristic example here is that of the Emperor Basil I, who is clearly described as being descended “from the Armenian nation“: This however, did not stop the Byzantines from calling him a Macedonian.
e) This category does not appear to include the more recent immigrants to Macedonia, evidently because they retained their own ethnic particularity (language, religion, culture, etc.) and, more important still, their independence from the Byzantine rule. Thus, for example, in no case could any Bulgars, Slavs or Turks who were known to have settled in the region after a certain period (and who, indeed, became the permanent residents) ever be described as Μacedones

An interesting case of this refusal to use the term Μαcedon, as a descriptor for local, generally Slav, rulers, is that of Tsar Samuel. Samuel who came from the Western Macedonian district of Ochrid and who brought all Macedonia under his rule in the late 10th centure and early 11th century, was never called Μακeδών (=Macedonian), either by the Byzantines or by local Slavo-Bulgarian sources.

here we go again...:coffee:I wont bother waste my time going over this shit again, I wil tell you one thing, the word "greek" is a made up word by the latins, and those ancient macedonians never claimed being "greek"

[morski]

here we go again...:coffee:I wont bother waste my time going over this shit again, I wil tell you one thing, the word "greek" is a made up word by the latins, and those ancient macedonians never claimed being "greek"

The word "Greek" is an exonym, dear illiterate Titostani.

[Crn Volk]

The Macedonian language at the UN

http://unterm.un.org/dgaacs/unterm.nsf/WebView/5DAA91633F2A4F8285256DC700440A6B?OpenDocument

Deal with it

[Alexq]

The word "Greek" is an exonym, dear illiterate Titostani.

only Turkic countries end with "stan" such as Turkmenistan, kazakhastan, and ofcourse your motherland Tatarstan :P

[Vojnik]

Ancient Macedonia was never part of Vardaska (Fyrom). Real Macedonia lies in Greece:

http://i61.tinypic.com/w0mhz5.jpg
Map of Ancient Macedonia. 95% of Ancient Macedonia still lies in Greece. The region above macedonia (Fyrom) was known as Vardaska.

Regions of Ancient Macedonia:
http://www.macedonia.com/english/history/regions1.html

And the real name of the area above Greece inhabited by the West Bulgarians is Vardaska.
Fyrom is a fake country that hijacked the name and history of Ancient macedonians. As late as 1946 Fyrom was known as Vardaska

http://i61.tinypic.com/28hnec5.jpg

"In 1931 Yugoslavia was reorganized into 9 regions (Banovinas). The southern region of Yugoslavia, including today's FYROM, was named as Vardaska Banovina (or Vardaria). That was the original name of the area of FYROM, when it was first created, inside Yugoslavia."

In 1946 it was renamed to Macedonia, the same name as the Greek province of Greece (where real Macedonia is). They clearly aimed in accessing the Aegean Sea, a priviledge that they had lost after the 1st World War. On their side they had the Russians who wanted to gain access in the area. They proposed the creation of a communistic state in Macedonia which they planned to annex in the future.

Fyrom continues to have territorial claims against Greece:

http://history-of-macedonia.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/primary_school_fyrom.jpg

Notice how they include a huge chunk of Northern Greece in their map. They indoctrinate their children from a small age that Ancient macedonians had nothing to do with Greeks, and indoctrinate them to hate Greeks.

Fact is that Macedonians have never associated themselves with anything other than Greek. Slavs,Turks or Bulgarians were NEVER characterised as “Macedonians” in Byzantine, Ancient, and foreign Sources.

http://www.history-of-macedonia.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/slavs_and_macedonians_byzantium.jpg

The two terms, Macedonian, do not always have the same significance: they coincide only to the extend that they refer to a geographical concept.

The term Μαcedonian also was to a considerable extend used in its geographical sense, when it designated a Byzantine inhabitant of Macedonia. Since, however, it could at the same time have other, non-geographical, connotations (racial, family, etc.). it does not appear blindly to follow the successive administrate changes effected by the central authority.

It is characteristic that those who from time to time are designated as Μacedonian are always members of Byzantine society or the Byzantine army, speaking the same language and apparently following the same failh, and that they never appear to turn, as the head of a certain group, against ihe Byzantine state.
(as was the case with Bulgarians)

In this sense, the term Μακεδών could be applied lo a person who was not of Macedonian descent. The characteristic example here is that of the Emperor Basil I, who is clearly described as being descended “from the Armenian nation“: This however, did not stop the Byzantines from calling him a Macedonian.
e) This category does not appear to include the more recent immigrants to Macedonia, evidently because they retained their own ethnic particularity (language, religion, culture, etc.) and, more important still, their independence from the Byzantine rule. Thus, for example, in no case could any Bulgars, Slavs or Turks who were known to have settled in the region after a certain period (and who, indeed, became the permanent residents) ever be described as Μacedones

An interesting case of this refusal to use the term Μαcedon, as a descriptor for local, generally Slav, rulers, is that of Tsar Samuel. Samuel who came from the Western Macedonian district of Ochrid and who brought all Macedonia under his rule in the late 10th centure and early 11th century, was never called Μακeδών (=Macedonian), either by the Byzantines or by local Slavo-Bulgarian sources.


By your logic, Serbia isn't really Serbia but Dunavska and Croatia is actually Savska. All states of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia were named after the major river the flows through it. The Yugoslavs were attempting to wipe out sepperatist sentiment by taking away names like Macedonia, Croatia and Serbia.

Now shut the fuck up and stop parroting Greek propaganda.

[HellLander87]

By your logic, Serbia isn't really Serbia but Dunavska and Croatia is actually Savska. All states of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia were named after the major river the flows through it. The Yugoslavs were attempting to wipe out sepperatist sentiment by taking away names like Macedonia, Croatia and Serbia.

Now shut the fuck up and stop parroting Greek propaganda.
LOL.Grow up and accept your bulgarian identity.

[HellLander87]

here we go again...:coffee:I wont bother waste my time going over this shit again, I wil tell you one thing, the word "greek" is a made up word by the latins, and those ancient macedonians never claimed being "greek"
roflmao.Your ancestors did claim to be bulgarians though.

[Alexq]

roflmao.Your ancestors did claim to be bulgarians though.

they did not claim, but they were claimed by bulgarian, serb and even greek so called "travellers" and their "church" lol only the french travellers didnt write poropaganda shit like the previous, cause those were real travellers ...my ancestors lived in a mountain, had a farm and cared more for the sheep and cows...you forgot that you are "greek" because of the "greek orthodox church", otherwise no way a pontic greek, mainland greek, cypriot greek and some arab who is part of your church in lebanon and sirya are related at all

[HellLander87]

they did not claim, but they were claimed by bulgarian, serb and even greek so called "travellers" and their "church" lol only the french travellers didnt write poropaganda shit like the previous, cause those were real travellers ...my ancestors lived in a mountain, had a farm and cared more for the sheep and cows...you forgot that you are "greek" because of the "greek orthodox church", otherwise no way a pontic greek, mainland greek, cypriot greek and some arab who is part of your church in lebanon and sirya are related at all
You are wrong. Ohrid was the center of Bulgarian church.

[Alexq]

You are wrong. Ohrid was the center of Bulgarian church.

that is one small period of time, if that is the reason your ballcraping about whole bulgarian thing, then go suicide, cause macedonia was center of islam for 500 years during ottoman times, are u going to say im turk or arab now?

[Vojnik]

LOL.Grow up and accept your bulgarian identity.

I accept our shared history and culture with Bulgarians, but I will never accept the Macedonian name to be taken away from us, as it has always been closely associated with us. It's time for Neo-Greeks to grow up and accept that they do not have by any means exclusive right to the name.

[Vojnik]

roflmao.Your ancestors did claim to be bulgarians though.

True, provided that they were educated in a Bulgarian exarchate school. Otherwise, most people were peasants with no clear ethnic conscience. The majority chose to identify with their village or region.

With the introduction of nationalism in the Balkans, we, the Slavic speaking inhabitants of Macedonia chose freely to be one entity with our Slavic speaking brothers to the east, and eventually taking up arms together against our common enemy, the Ottomans. But even through our national awakening process, we still had a very strong regional Macedonian identity.

So yes, our intellectuals did call themselves Bulgarians, but Macedonians at the same time. Bulgarians is the name that united all South East Slavs since the Middle Ages right through to Balkan nationalism.

[Crn Volk]

True, provided that they were educated in a Bulgarian exarchate school. Otherwise, most people were peasants with no clear ethnic conscience. The majority chose to identify with their village or region.

With the introduction of nationalism in the Balkans, we, the Slavic speaking inhabitants of Macedonia chose freely to be one entity with our Slavic speaking brothers to the east, and eventually taking up arms together against our common enemy, the Ottomans. But even through our national awakening process, we still had a very strong regional Macedonian identity.

So yes, our intellectuals did call themselves Bulgarians, but Macedonians at the same time. Bulgarians is the name that united all South East Slavs since the Middle Ages right through to Balkan nationalism.

Yes, but what about before the Exarchate? the Exarchate is not the be-all and end-all of the story.

[Zaycev]

хаиде да свагаме македония до балгария, хаиде, хаиде, хаиде, приятели

ты, сокол, ты что (is that correct? like the russian tschto?) не си като Войник?

[Vojnik]

Yes, but what about before the Exarchate? the Exarchate is not the be-all and end-all of the story.

Search: Paisius of Hilendar. Born in Bansko, Pirinsko.

[Machete]

True, provided that they were educated in a Bulgarian exarchate school. Otherwise, most people were peasants with no clear ethnic conscience. The majority chose to identify with their village or region.

With the introduction of nationalism in the Balkans, we, the Slavic speaking inhabitants of Macedonia chose freely to be one entity with our Slavic speaking brothers to the east, and eventually taking up arms together against our common enemy, the Ottomans. But even through our national awakening process, we still had a very strong regional Macedonian identity.

So yes, our intellectuals did call themselves Bulgarians, but Macedonians at the same time. Bulgarians is the name that united all South East Slavs since the Middle Ages right through to Balkan nationalism.

Damn it, that's complicated, why officially macedonian identity have been seperated from bulgarian?!! I haven't been that much into history

[morski]

Damn it, that's complicated, why officially macedonian identity have been seperated from bulgarian?!! I haven't been that much into history

It was a decision of the Comintern and Stalin, the purpose of it was to tackle Balkan nationalism and to reconcile Yugoslavia and Bulgaria and possibly create an even bigger post WWII Yugoslavia which would include Bulgaria and a united Macedonia with access to the Aegean coast. It was implemented without the consent of the people and was only possible because of the long Serbian occupation of Vardar Macedonia, which drove a wedge between the Bulgarians from both sides of the border.

[Crn Volk]

Search: Paisius of Hilendar. Born in Bansko, Pirinsko.

Why did he publish his works? What were the people calling themselves?

[Crn Volk]

It was a decision of the Comintern and Stalin, the purpose of it was to tackle Balkan nationalism and to reconcile Yugoslavia and Bulgaria and possibly create an even bigger post WWII Yugoslavia which would include Bulgaria and a united Macedonia with access to the Aegean coast. It was implemented without the consent of the people and was only possible because of the long Serbian occupation of Vardar Macedonia, which drove a wedge between the Bulgarians from both sides of the border.

Perhaps, but was it such a bad idea ie., union of all South Slavs, in which Macedonia would be united? I don't like the Communist part, but the idea is good.

[morski]

Perhaps, but was it such a bad idea ie., union of all South Slavs, in which Macedonia would be united? I don't like the Communist part, but the idea is good.
Ye... the idea is good! Me personally have got nothing against it... it's the revision of history in order to fit the new Macedonism what's bothering me!

[morski]

Ye... the idea is good! Me personally have got nothing against it... it's the revision of history in order to fit the new Macedonism what's bothering me!

Strike that. Was drunk while typing it.:D Bulgaria is not federation material.

[HellLander87]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ttjSOO8Anc
Bulgarian accent in northern Greece.

[Vojnik]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ttjSOO8Anc
Bulgarian accent in northern Greece.

That sounds Greek with Slavic words.

[Alexq]

That sounds Greek with Slavic words.

because macedonians in greece dont have the macedonian accent when they speak

[Crn Volk]

According to the EU

http://www.mkd.mk/files/styles/statija-shiroka/public/article/2014/10/05/mkd-152979.png?itok=SVAdWggF

http://publications.europa.eu/code/pdf/370000en.htm#langues

[poiuytrewq0987]

According to the EU

http://www.mkd.mk/files/styles/statija-shiroka/public/article/2014/10/05/mkd-152979.png?itok=SVAdWggF

http://publications.europa.eu/code/pdf/370000en.htm#langues

The Montenegrin language is also listed. :laugh:

[Crn Volk]

The Montenegrin language is also listed. :laugh:

Indeed. You don't speak either, so shouldn't concern you.

[poiuytrewq0987]

I accept our shared history and culture with Bulgarians, but I will never accept the Macedonian name to be taken away from us, as it has always been closely associated with us. It's time for Neo-Greeks to grow up and accept that they do not have by any means exclusive right to the name.

Macedonism has always been an irredentist tool of the Bulgarians. Fyromians are Bulgarians who basically took their propaganda literally. Why do you think the Greeks didn't care about ancient Macedonians? They were a vanished people, assimilated into the Greek ethnos and a question better left to history books... until the Bulgarians went mad.

http://s17.postimg.org/6fxsizljz/Screen_Shot_2016_08_29_at_8_11_29_PM.png

[LouisFerdinand]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uh2rhqK3aE

[Vojnik]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uh2rhqK3aE


Wow. That's a hard dialect even for me, and i originate from Aegean Macedonia (Northern Greece).

This is my exact dialect from my ancestral village in Buf/Akritas. present day Greece:

https://youtu.be/cKZjwwdrlcQ


https://youtu.be/TRrCsCqUsQA


https://youtu.be/rDz4jtDwZq4

[Novi Pazar]

Macedonism has always been an irredentist tool of the Bulgarians. Fyromians are Bulgarians who basically took their propaganda literally. Why do you think the Greeks didn't care about ancient Macedonians? They were a vanished people, assimilated into the Greek ethnos and a question better left to history books... until the Bulgarians went mad.

http://s17.postimg.org/6fxsizljz/Screen_Shot_2016_08_29_at_8_11_29_PM.png

Yes, Macedonians and Bulgarians share the same ancestors = SERBS! Bulgarians and Macedonians simply speak a dialect of Serbian! Now Bulgars claim they were Slavicised Thracians? Thracians mind you are Ras ( Serbs ), so the logic is Serbiansing Serbs lol.

PS in the Bulgarian dialects, of Serbian, and Serbian also, the word for Poppy is......wait for it......is MAK. The name MAKEDONIA simply means in Serbian and our dialects the one who grows poppies. It makes sense since Afghanistan is basically a poppy field, once where Lesandar Karanovic conquered it........there you will find the Sarba tribe, translated in Standard Hindi as Serbian!

[Aspar]

Yes, Macedonians and Bulgarians share the same ancestors = SERBS! Bulgarians and Macedonians simply speak a dialect of Serbian! Now Bulgars claim they were Slavicised Thracians? Thracians mind you are Ras ( Serbs ), so the logic is Serbiansing Serbs lol.

PS in the Bulgarian dialects, of Serbian, and Serbian also, the word for Poppy is......wait for it......is MAK. The name MAKEDONIA simply means in Serbian and our dialects the one who grows poppies. It makes sense since Afghanistan is basically a poppy field, once where Lesandar Karanovic conquered it........there you will find the Sarba tribe, translated in Standard Hindi as Serbian!

Damn, I just realised that the Japs are Serbs as well...
Let's shoot out now "Srbija do Tokija"
That's it, whole world knows now, this world belongs to Serbs.
Yeah

[Bosniensis]

Damn, I just realised that the Japs are Serbs as well...
Let's shoot out now "Srbija do Tokija"
That's it, whole world knows now, this world belongs to Serbs.
Yeah

In Japan: Hoko Jama Mountin = Jama = Serbian word, that means Serbs lived there before Japs xD xD xD xD


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud3EFxPXuSw

[Novi Pazar]

Damn, I just realised that the Japs are Serbs as well...
Let's shoot out now "Srbija do Tokija"
That's it, whole world knows now, this world belongs to Serbs.
Yeah

I don't know whether your taking the Pi.ss out of me or not.....l think you are!

[Aspar]

In Japan: Hoko Jama Mountin = Jama = Serbian word, that means Serbs lived there before Japs xD xD xD xD


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud3EFxPXuSw

Damnnn, I was right all along...
The Serbs are everywhere

[Aspar]

I don't know whether your taking the Pi.ss out of me or not.....l think you are!

Shit nooooo...How could I?

[Novi Pazar]

^ I know you can't stupid!

[PAGANE]

БАН и МАНУ во јазичен спор https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/images/emoji.php/v9/t6c/1/16/2764.png<3 Весели празници браќа и сестри!
https://scontent-otp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/81424756_10217545366879714_6430833830558433280_n.j pg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_ohc=dUO6NlPGrvsAX8un0D7&_nc_ht=scontent-otp1-1.xx&oh=d61abd114888aa8b56711da980d9179b&oe=5EA0150D

[Crn Volk]

https://ec.europa.eu/education/knowledge-centre-interpretation/news/macedonian-its-way-becoming-new-eu-language_en

Macedonian, on its way to becoming a new EU language

[Faklon]

At least 200 different dialects from Florin to Skoplje.

Happens in empires.

[Crn Volk]

At least 200 different dialects from Florin to Skoplje.

Happens in empires.

And the best was chosen as the basis for the Macedonian literary language

[Novi Pazar]

At least 200 different dialects from Florin to Skoplje.

Happens in empires.

There are many. People when studying this region overlook it. The problem is Bulgaria, the name Bulgaria and its language is absolutely incorrect for the people. Old Bulgarian and its people, Bulgars, were a steppe/East Asian tribe who spoke a language akin to Mongols, Koreans, Japanese etc....

The language that the modern nation state of Bulgaria speaks ‘Bulgarian’ is a dialect of Serbian, there are many not so long ago who classed it as such. There are also other factors for Macedonians being classed as Bulgars from politics, religion and even social status (Austria-Hungary, Ottomans, Vatican, English, French etc...) The confusion went even deeper, Serbian travellers who travelled through Greece were called Bulgars (boulgaroi, bolgaroi) Vulgar class or sub-humans dirty ones.

[Chron]

I'm sure someone here will appreciate this, a Lerin-Kostur dialect dictionary

http://www.pollitecon.com/html/ebooks/risto-stefov/English%96Macedonian-Dialectical-Dictionary-based-on-the-Lerin-Kostur-Dialects.pdf

[Crn Volk]

Macedonian language in NATO

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/132885.htm?selectedLocale=mk


https://youtu.be/GFrosefUidQ