Macedonia’s Plea for a Seat in NATO Falls on Busy Ears

[poiuytrewq0987]

WASHINGTON – More than two decades after an independent Macedonia was born from the bloody ethnic wars in the Balkans, its desire to join NATO remains stalled by an old question: “What’s in a name?”

Greece, an alliance member since 1952, was vehemently opposed to initial desires of its neighbor to adopt the name Republic of Macedonia, saying it implied territorial claims to the Greek province of the same name, an assertion Macedonia has publicly disavowed.

To remove that hurdle, the government in the capital, Skopje, years ago said the country would apply to international organizations under an interim name until the bilateral dispute was resolved. It has since joined the United Nations and applied to NATO and the European Union as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, a name usually reduced to its acronym, Fyrom.

But as NATO presidents and prime ministers prepare for a summit meeting next month in Chicago, the ascent of new members is not even on the agenda. Meetings will focus on the future of the alliance war effort in Afghanistan – mostly how to end it — and ways to reshape member militaries around a concept called “smart defense.”

Macedonia’s foreign minister, Nikola Poposki, is in Washington this week to make the case for Fyrom. He cites a list of statistics to prove that his tiny nation – with just 2 million people – already is giving more than its fair share to NATO missions, even as just an aspirant to membership.

On a per-capita basis, Macedonia is the fifth-largest contributor of forces to the NATO mission in Afghanistan, providing about 175 people responsible for providing security around the NATO headquarters in Kabul and across the Afghan capital’s diplomatic zone, which includes the American Embassy. Macedonian troops also are training Afghan security forces.

The effort eats up about 10 percent of the republic’s defense budget. (Macedonia previously contributed about 500 troops to the American-led effort in Iraq.)

“We are an exporter of security forces to NATO,” Mr. Poposki said in an interview on Thursday. “But we are in the waiting room for membership.”

He pledged that Macedonian troops would remain in Afghanistan until the formal end of the NATO mission, now set for December 2014, and said that there was no pressure in Parliament for an early withdrawal, as there is in some member nations.

He said Greece’s security would be only enhanced by dropping its objections, as adding a NATO member to its borders would bind Macedonia to all the articles of the alliance’s mutual-defense pact. “We are no threat to the territorial integrity of Greece,” Mr. Poposki said.

There are few indications of movement on the issue, however. Greece is in the midst of a financial crisis, hoping to avoid becoming the first member nation of the European economic zone to default.

In such an environment, there is little incentive within the Greek political system to resolve an international dispute over its neighbor.

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/26/macedonias-plea-for-a-seat-in-nato-falls-on-busy-ears/

[Vojnik]

I disagree with joining Nato, but I believe that a issue such as the name dispute shouldn't stand in the way of Macedonia joining the alliance. Macedonia has proven that it is above the standards required in joining Nato. We even have a larger military presence in Afghanistan then Greece, the country that stands in our way time and time again. That's why, like I have said before, tell Nato literally to GET FUCKED! simple.

[poiuytrewq0987]

I disagree with joining Nato, but I believe that a issue such as the name dispute shouldn't stand in the way of Macedonia joining the alliance. Macedonia has proven that it is above the standards required in joining Nato. We even have a larger military presence in Afghanistan then Greece, the country that stands in our way time and time again. That's why, like I have said before, tell Nato literally to GET FUCKED! simple.

I think if NATO fails to extend us an invitation to the organization then Macedonia should end the mission in Afghanistan. Literally no point to extend them our support if they aren't going to extend us the same courtesy.

[ikki]

i wonder, was fyrom founded by trolls just for the purpose of supreme trolling across the world in ways only nations can troll?

[Vojnik]

I think if NATO fails to extend us an invitation to the organization then Macedonia should end the mission in Afghanistan. Literally no point to extend them our support if they aren't going to extend us the same courtesy.

Dušan, I agree, but we have piss weak politicians that will not do what you said should be done. Macedonia will once again be denied and Macedonia will still be kissing Nato's ass.

Razbudite se budali politicari, I zamislite malku sto e pravo.

[Vojnik]

i wonder, was fyrom founded by trolls just for the purpose of supreme trolling across the world in ways only nations can troll?

What's the point of this post ikki? You're the troll.

[iNird]

i wonder, was fyrom founded by trolls just for the purpose of supreme trolling across the world in ways only nations can troll?

Their "Macedonian" identity is based on trolling.

See the ultimate troll job aka "Skopje 2014".

Cheers!

[Graham]

Better to stay out the UN/NATO. Nothing, but back patting and bored war mongering.

[Kanuni]

I think if NATO fails to extend us an invitation to the organization then Macedonia should end the mission in Afghanistan. Literally no point to extend them our support if they aren't going to extend us the same courtesy.

FYROM supporting NATO in Afghanistan is crucial.:rolleyes:

[Crn Volk]

i wonder, was fyrom founded by trolls just for the purpose of supreme trolling across the world in ways only nations can troll?

No but Finland is a troll nation, belonging to Russia :thumb001:

Fuck off troll!

[Incal]

I think if NATO fails to extend us an invitation to the organization then Macedonia should end the mission in Afghanistan

Yeah, that will definitely affect the outcome of the Operation LOL.

[Crn Volk]

Yeah, that will definitely affect the outcome of the Operation LOL.

It would be one less country supporting the operation.

[Vojnik]

Yeah, that will definitely affect the outcome of the Operation LOL.

The Macedonian soldiers are currently doing a great job training the local Afghans, along with other duties. If Macedonia was to pull out, ofcourse it will affect the operation.

[Kanuni]

The Macedonian soldiers are currently doing a great job training the local Afghans, along with other duties. If Macedonia was to pull out, ofcourse it will affect the operation.

Then they should bow down to Macedonias requirements.:rotfl:

[iNird]

Then they should bow down to Macedonias requirements.:rotfl:

You silly siptar. Don't you know how important the glorious nation known as Macedonia is to the world? Macedonia is to Europe as South Dakota is to the United States.

[brunette]

Fuck Nato.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Yeah, that will definitely affect the outcome of the Operation LOL.

NATO is failing in Afghanistan. Even worse, the West is also failing in Iraq...

...As if some folks are carrying a curse with them, and the curse is causing disasters. Elsewhere NATO or the West in general were successful - even if disgraced - from various operations, ranging from Yugoslavia to Libya...

P.S.

The Fascist clone "Golden Dawn" is expected to reach ~9% in Athens. Forget NATO...

[Crn Volk]

NATO is failing in Afghanistan. Even worse, the West is also failing in Iraq...

...As if some folks are carrying a curse with them, and the curse is causing disasters. Elsewhere NATO or the West in general were successful - even if disgraced - from various operations, ranging from Yugoslavia to Libya...

P.S.

The Fascist clone "Golden Dawn" is expected to reach ~9% in Athens. Forget NATO...


Petros, you're back!

[Petros Houhoulis]

Petros, you're back!

I took a rest, but I always come back.

Greece might go as far as Vetoing everything in NATO, for obvious reasons: Turkey does not respect a 2002 agreement to accept all illegal immigrants that cross from Turkey to Greece. NATO does nothing to force Turkey to abide by either international law or the convictions against it by the U.N. over Cyprus.

The only certainty is that Greeces' stance shall get harder, while Greece is still not that bad as any of its' neighbors is...

...We can be undermining you just by playing patience...

[Crn Volk]

I took a rest, but I always come back.

Greece might go as far as Vetoing everything in NATO, for obvious reasons: Turkey does not respect a 2002 agreement to accept all illegal immigrants that cross from Turkey to Greece. NATO does nothing to force Turkey to abide by either international law or the convictions against it by the U.N. over Cyprus.

The only certainty is that Greeces' stance shall get harder, while Greece is still not that bad as any of its' neighbors is...

...We can be undermining you just by playing patience...

that's OK not all european countries are in NATO

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmdfence/276/27602.gif

the main thing is we are here and not going anywhere. 133 countries recognise our constitutional name, inlcuding the major powers of the day

[Petros Houhoulis]

that's OK not all european countries are in NATO

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmdfence/276/27602.gif

the main thing is we are here and not going anywhere. 133 countries recognise our constitutional name, inlcuding the major powers of the day

Wait a few decades dear, and we'll see if your grandchildren shall be learning Albanian as a compulsory language at school.

Don't go anywhere. Stay where you are, you are not welcomed in our territories. Your foul wishes to incorporate the ancient kingdom of Macedonia shall never be fulfilled. Just stay there and rot...

[Crn Volk]

Wait a few decades dear, and we'll see if your grandchildren shall be learning Albanian as a compulsory language at school.

Don't go anywhere. Stay where you are, you are not welcomed in our territories. Your foul wishes to incorporate the ancient kingdom of Macedonia shall never be fulfilled. Just stay there and rot...

Petros stop spamming the Macedonian section

[Vojnik]

Petros stop spamming the Macedonian section

He is a massive troll, I have no idea how his ban was taken off.

[Queen B]

He is a massive troll, I have no idea how his ban was taken off.

He is not a troll, he is responding with facts and arguments.
If you can't answer on this, then its not his problem.

[poiuytrewq0987]

NATO is failing in Afghanistan. Even worse, the West is also failing in Iraq...

The West haven't failed in Iraq. The problems currently present are usual for a transitional government especially for a country emerging from decades of one-man rule.


...As if some folks are carrying a curse with them, and the curse is causing disasters. Elsewhere NATO or the West in general were successful - even if disgraced - from various operations, ranging from Yugoslavia to Libya...

What curse? Don't reach to the supersitution now...


P.S.

The Fascist clone "Golden Dawn" is expected to reach ~9% in Athens. Forget NATO...

You Greeks are hilarious. You whine about the evil Germans who "ransacked" your lands in WW2 and today they are making a profit from the loans they made to your country to prevent bankruptcy... now you embrace their Nazi ideologies and inane, short-sighted white nationalism of the USA? Of course, that is all you have to fall back on since the Germans founded the state of Greece.




Greece might go as far as Vetoing everything in NATO, for obvious reasons: Turkey does not respect a 2002 agreement to accept all illegal immigrants that cross from Turkey to Greece. NATO does nothing to force Turkey to abide by either international law or the convictions against it by the U.N. over Cyprus.

Of course when one excuse doesn't work anymore you're going to conjure up more BS excuses.


The only certainty is that Greeces' stance shall get harder, while Greece is still not that bad as any of its' neighbors is...

...We can be undermining you just by playing patience...

Your actions have not at all undermined us but thanks for revealing your true intentions.

[Midori]

Wait a few decades dear, and we'll see if your grandchildren shall be learning Albanian as a compulsory language at school.


This is true unfortunately...

[poiuytrewq0987]

The U.S. Obama Administration is "working very hard behind the scenes" to resolve the standoff between Macedonia and Greece, including the President himself involved in "discussions with key counterparts," Elizabeth Sherwood-Randall, Special Assistant to the U.S. President spoke to the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) in Washington.

We have worked very hard behind the scenes to achieve a resolution to the standoff over the Macedonian name issue. One of the things that the president has mused about is the many things you need to know about as President - and one of those is the Macedonian name issue. He, himself, has been involved in discussions with key counterparts on this issue, and unfortunately [it] has not been resolved in time for the NATO Summit in Chicago, but we continue to hope that this will be resolved, so that Macedonia can take its place as a NATO member, Sherwood-Randall answered the question asked by the representative of the United Macedonian Diaspora (UMD).

Dr. Sherwood-Randall is the Senior Director for Europe and a member of the National Security Council.

http://www.emg.rs/en/news/region/178979.html

[Crn Volk]

This is true unfortunately...

Nah Albanians are planning on having 'Natural Albania' in place by 2015;

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/greater-albania-to-be-formed-by-2013-south-serbia-leader-say

They will either succeed or die trying...

[Petros Houhoulis]

He is a massive troll, I have no idea how his ban was taken off.

Maybe because somebody mentioned "The Kutlesh sun on top of the white tower of Thessaloniki" as a response to my message that got me banned.

Don't fool yourselves, I might have pushed a bit hard, but I uncovered you... Your agenda is far from hidden...

[Petros Houhoulis]

The West haven't failed in Iraq. The problems currently present are usual for a transitional government especially for a country emerging from decades of one-man rule.

"Transitional" is a code word for a country that has yet to reveal where it is going.

Nevertheless, the chasm between Kurds, Sunnis and Shias is far from bridged, and the 1 million dead civilians and 3-4 refugees cannot be exactly deemed a success, can it? Not to mention the huge damages in infrastructure, the destruction of various cultural and archaeologic monuments and so on...



What curse? Don't reach to the supersitution now...

Superstition? I should start a new thread based on reason, and that could perhaps explain to you in several pages what appears as superstition between a couple of lines.


You Greeks are hilarious. You whine about the evil Germans who "ransacked" your lands in WW2 and today they are making a profit from the loans they made to your country to prevent bankruptcy... now you embrace their Nazi ideologies and inane, short-sighted white nationalism of the USA? Of course, that is all you have to fall back on since the Germans founded the state of Greece.

Golden Dawn is a Fascist clone and not a Nazist clone. Perhaps you should consider the differences. For your information, they are probably more anti-German than you think and they refute the legitimacy of the Greek loans as much as the hard left does. In any case they managed to get a mere 7% and not the prime ministers' seat. We shall never see them engaging in NAZI architecture as you do, simply because they'll never get in power.


Of course when one excuse doesn't work anymore you're going to conjure up more BS excuses.

My "excuses" were backed up by solid references in wikipedia which are apparently missing from your response. In any case, what NATO shall do won't be any good for you, especially now that Samaras didn't even manage to become Prime minister, and the E.U. heads are worried.


Your actions have not at all undermined us but thanks for revealing your true intentions.

Our intentions? We have no designs upon your soil for sure, but we are realistic enough to know that the Albanians shall swallow you sooner or later... And we play along, even if we didn't plan or execute any of it.

[Petros Houhoulis]

The U.S. Obama Administration is "working very hard behind the scenes" to resolve the standoff between Macedonia and Greece, including the President himself involved in "discussions with key counterparts," Elizabeth Sherwood-Randall, Special Assistant to the U.S. President spoke to the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) in Washington.

We have worked very hard behind the scenes to achieve a resolution to the standoff over the Macedonian name issue. One of the things that the president has mused about is the many things you need to know about as President - and one of those is the Macedonian name issue. He, himself, has been involved in discussions with key counterparts on this issue, and unfortunately [it] has not been resolved in time for the NATO Summit in Chicago, but we continue to hope that this will be resolved, so that Macedonia can take its place as a NATO member, Sherwood-Randall answered the question asked by the representative of the United Macedonian Diaspora (UMD).

Dr. Sherwood-Randall is the Senior Director for Europe and a member of the National Security Council.

http://www.emg.rs/en/news/region/178979.html

Conclusion? You won't be invited in NATO at this summit, and the electoral results in Greece point out that you won't be invited in the next summit either. Greece is too much stressed on economic issues to give ground at any other front right now...

In the E.U. your dear leaders' actions have shot your efforts in the foot. You might even lose the candidate status at the next assessment...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Nah Albanians are planning on having 'Natural Albania' in place by 2015;

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/greater-albania-to-be-formed-by-2013-south-serbia-leader-say

They will either succeed or die trying...

2015 is too early. Anyway, some Albanian hotheads come up with such ideas every year or so, and none of them bares fruit in the short term. You'll have to be... Patient and... Realistic. Those Albanian leaders of sorts are neither.

[Queen B]

.Golden Dawn is a Fascist clone and not a Nazist clone. Perhaps you should consider the differences. For your information, they are probably more anti-German than you think and they refute the legitimacy of the Greek loans as much as the hard left does. In any case they managed to get a mere 7% and not the prime ministers' seat. We shall never see them engaging in NAZI architecture as you do, simply because they'll never get in power.My "excuses" were backed up by solid references in wikipedia which are apparently missing from your response. In any case, what NATO shall do won't be any good for you, especially now that Samaras didn't even manage to become Prime minister, and the E.U. heads are worried.

Our intentions? We have no designs upon your soil for sure, but we are realistic enough to know that the Albanians shall swallow you sooner or later... And we play along, even if we didn't plan or execute any of it.
:thumb001:

[Crn Volk]

2015 is too early. Anyway, some Albanian hotheads come up with such ideas every year or so, and none of them bares fruit in the short term. You'll have to be... Patient and... Realistic. Those Albanian leaders of sorts are neither.

The longer they wait, the less likely is their cause. Albania's population has dropped to 2.8 million and Kosovo's to 1.7 million. This myth about them breeding like rabbits is just that - a myth. Their economies will not improve and thereofore mass migration will continue. Who knows, you may get some more coming your way once greece sorts it's economic mess out :wink

[alb0zfinest]

The longer they wait, the less likely is their cause. Albania's population has dropped to 2.8 million and Kosovo's to 1.7 million. This myth about them breeding like rabbits is just that - a myth. Their economies will not improve and thereofore mass migration will continue. Who knows, you may get some more coming your way once greece sorts it's economic mess out :wink

Again those numbers got lower because of mass migrations from other countries. The decrease is compared to 1998. How are their economies not improving just last year Kosova had a 5% economic increase while Albania 3%. Albanias was higher but due to their trading partners economic growth is being hinderd,nonetheless 3% is still enough if they can keep this.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Again those numbers got lower because of mass migrations from other countries. The decrease is compared to 1998. How are their economies not improving just last year Kosova had a 5% economic increase while Albania 3%. Albanias was higher but due to their trading partners economic growth is being hinderd,nonetheless 3% is still enough if they can keep this.

When you hit rock bottom , you have nowhere to go except up. :cool:

[alb0zfinest]

When you hit rock bottom , you have nowhere to go except up. :cool:

But of course Macedonia is far more developed and economically better off then Albania :rolleyes:
Point is Sokol made an idiotic remark saying their economies wont grow which i proved otherwise.
Mate the quality of life in Macedonia is lower then Azerbaijan maybe you should look at that instead of worrying about Albania. Monetarily speaking Macedonia has a GDP(PPP) $9,000 where as according to wikipedia is $8,800 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Albania) i don't think you should be saying anything.

[iNird]

Macedonia and Albania are the same sh*t in terms of economies. Similar infrastructure, similar wages, standard living and so forth.

:coffee:

[Petros Houhoulis]

The longer they wait, the less likely is their cause. Albania's population has dropped to 2.8 million and Kosovo's to 1.7 million. This myth about them breeding like rabbits is just that - a myth. Their economies will not improve and thereofore mass migration will continue. Who knows, you may get some more coming your way once greece sorts it's economic mess out :wink

Albania is not the same as Kossovo. It is by far more secular and it chastening your folks and the Kossovars as "Taliban".

The statistics that I have been showing you were about your country, not Albania. Don't delude yourself...

[Petros Houhoulis]

But of course Macedonia is far more developed and economically better off then Albania :rolleyes:
Point is Sokol made an idiotic remark saying their economies wont grow which i proved otherwise.
Mate the quality of life in Macedonia is lower then Azerbaijan maybe you should look at that instead of worrying about Albania. Monetarily speaking Macedonia has a GDP(PPP) $9,000 where as according to wikipedia is $8,800 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Albania) i don't think you should be saying anything.

Actually who shall surpass whom is evident as we speak. The ones with the long beaches and the warmer temperatures shall attract more tourists in the long term and for a long run because of the low wages.

[alb0zfinest]

Albania is not the same as Kossovo. It is by far more secular and it chastening your folks and the Kossovars as "Taliban".

The statistics that I have been showing you were about your country, not Albania. Don't delude yourself...

Generally i agree with most of your posts but i disagree with this one. Sure the Albanians in Kosove are a tad bit more religious then the ones in Albania but i wouldnt go as far as to say that. Anyways its expected, under Serbia, probably the only way of preserving their identity was a different religion. Not mentioning that Albanians in Albania weren't permitted to follow any religion for over 40 years so they cind of lost faith along the way.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Generally i agree with most of your posts but i disagree with this one. Sure the Albanians in Kosove are a tad bit more religious then the ones in Albania but i wouldnt go as far as to say that. Anyways its expected, under Serbia, probably the only way of preserving their identity was a different religion. Not mentioning that Albanians in Albania weren't permitted to follow any religion for over 40 years so they cind of lost faith along the way.

Well, in that case I have to state that my comment was misunderstood. There are some fringe liberals who use the term "Taliban", but they are certainly not representative of the Albanian population as a whole.

As for faith preservation, these people are isolated in the mountains, Albania proper has a long coastline and contacts with the rest of the world. As a result the Albanians in Albania are more open minded, while the mountaineers are more conservative, Yugoslavia or no Yugoslavia.

Either you like it or not, their conservatism and adherence to religion shall be maintained under whatever regime...

[poiuytrewq0987]

Resolving the "name" dispute with Greece remains the condition for Macedonia’s NATO accession, NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen told Radio Free Europe ahead of the summit that starts on May 20-21.

The Alliance's position remains unchanged, he said, and is still based on the decision taken at the 2008 Bucharest summit, when NATO deemed Macedonia ready to join once it concludes the long-standing name dispute with Greece.

"Unfortunately, there has not been progress in this direction. Nevertheless, the decision we took four years ago continues to apply," Rasmussen said.

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/nato-remains-closed-for-macedonia

Smart move, NATO... you practically just guaranteed the region will be engulfed in yet another Balkan war. The breakup of Yugoslavia is not complete, to be continued with new Islamist Albanian rebellions in Macedonia and Kosovo and quite possibly another Bosnian war. :coffee:

[Vojnik]

Smart move, NATO... you practically just guaranteed the region will be engulfed in yet another Balkan war. The breakup of Yugoslavia is not complete, to be continued with new Islamist Albanian rebellions in Macedonia and Kosovo and quite possibly another Bosnian war. :coffee:

Absolutely right Dušan. Nato is a joke. If the Macedonian government has any intelligence at all, they will withdraw all Macedonian soldiers (244 of them) from the Nato-led mission in Afghanistan as a sign of protest, although, I think the Macedonian Government is too gutless to do so.

[poiuytrewq0987]

No NATO? Fine, when the Albanian Islamofascist rebellions begin, we'll do an Operation Storm to get the filthy Шiptars out of the country to make it safe again.


About 53 percent of the citizens of Macedonia do not feel safe, according to a poll the daily 'Dnevnik' is going to publish on Wednesday.

Fifty percent of the respondents consider that at the moment the interethnic relations in the country are bad against 15 percent who believe they are good.

Representatives of both ethnic Macedonians and Albanians are more concerned about the security situation in the country as a result of the recent events. 58 percent of ethnic Macedonian and 42 of ethnic Albanian respondents say there is a high risk of interethnic conflict.

The poll for 'Dnevnik' was conducted by the Rating Agency in early May on a representative sample of 1,560 respondents.

http://www.emg.rs/en/news/region/179545.html

[iNird]

No NATO? Fine, when the Albanian Islamofascist rebellions begin, we'll do an Operation Storm to get the filthy Шiptars out of the country to make it safe again.

Right. FYROMiaks arrest 20 religious Albanians and you saw protests in the thousands. You try that shit and you will lose the majority of Western FYROM.

sprechen sie iliridish? if not your family that lives in fyromia should learn it....

[poiuytrewq0987]

Right. FYROMiaks arrest 20 religious Albanians and you saw protests in the thousands. You try that shit and you will lose the majority of Western FYROM.

sprechen sie iliridish? if not your family that lives in fyromia should learn it....

:lol: You clearly can't read. I SAID if Albanians TRY to rebel again, we will drive you animals out of Macedonia this time. Croats drove out the Serbs. You are the Serbs of South Balkans constantly masturbating over Greater Albania.

[iNird]

:lol: You clearly can't read. I SAID if Albanians TRY to rebel again, we will drive you animals out of Macedonia this time. Croats drove out the Serbs. You are the Serbs of South Balkans constantly masturbating over Greater Albania.

There won't be armed rebellions. All we need is time.

:)

[Crn Volk]

There won't be armed rebellions. All we need is time.

:)

Time is on our side. You see as time goes along, the west awakenes to your petty demands for changes to Balkan borders and your increasingly militant brand of Islamism. The west is at war with Islamo-Jihadists and you are showing your true colors as time goes on....

[Crn Volk]

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/21019/2

New Survey shows Greece 'most likely to get kicked out of NATO"
Wednesday, 16 May 2012


Greece is the NATO member-state most likely to be kicked out of the Alliance because of its behaviour towards Macedonia and Turkey, shows a survey of the Atlantic Council and Foreign Policy magazine.



The two renowned institutions polled about 60 heads of state, ministers of defense and foreign affairs, intelligence officers, and current and former members of Congress.

When asked which country they would kick out of NATO, Greece won comfortably with 18 votes, followed by Hungary (5), Turkey (4), Iceland (3), whereas 22 respondents said all member-states should remain in the Alliance.

Respondents said the reasons for Greece's NATO expelling were the its behavior towards Macedonia and Greece, as well as "its boundlessly selfish egotism and disruptive tactics".



On the other hand, when asked which country should join NATO, Macedonia was second with six votes, behind Sweden (13), but ahead of Australia, Georgia and the Ukraine with five each.

In the survey, (http://www.acus.org/event/atlantic-councilforeign-policy-survey-future-nato), respondents said the economic crisis is the biggest challenge for the transatlantic alliance, followed by nationalism and internal divisions. All respondents said NATO should continue to exist and the United States should remain in the Alliance. Only ten supported the idea of Russia joining NATO, whereas 19 left this option open for the future.

Interventions in Bosnia and Kosovo have been assessed as most successful, whereas the war in Afghanistan as the least successful undertaken by NATO.



When asked if NATO's European members could have conducted the operation in Libya without U.S. assistance, 48 respondents said "No".

Respondents included Estonian President Toomas Hendrik Ilves, Lithuanian Defense Minister Rasa Jukneviciene, U.S. Senator Richard Lugar, former Congressmen Jim Kolbe, former Bulgarian Defense Minister Boyko Noev, Members of European Parliament Ioan Mircea Pascu and Ana Maria Gomes, analysts Daniel Serwer and Sally McNamara etc

[Petros Houhoulis]

Smart move, NATO... you practically just guaranteed the region will be engulfed in yet another Balkan war. The breakup of Yugoslavia is not complete, to be continued with new Islamist Albanian rebellions in Macedonia and Kosovo and quite possibly another Bosnian war. :coffee:

Long before NATO there was the League of Nations and the U.N.

Did any of them manage to prevent or handle properly ANY of the Balkan wars whatsoever? Or did you forget that Yugoslavia itself was not merely a political alliance, but also a military one?

Where does Bosnia relate with your accession in any international organization?

If the Balkans are to become more peaceful, they need more democracy, not more military alliances...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Nations

Historical era Interwar period
- Treaty of Versailles 28 June 1919
- First meeting 16 January 1920
- Dissolved 20 April 1946

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_nations

Establishment
- United Nations Charter signed 26 June 1945
- Entry into force of Charter 24 October 1945

Furthermore, NATO cannot prevent a war between its' own members. This is why Turkey has a casus belli against Greece:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casus_belli


Casus belli is a Latin expression meaning the justification for acts of war. Casus means "incident", "rupture" or indeed "case", while belli means bellic ("of war"). It is usually distinguished from casus foederis, where casus belli refers to offenses or threats directly against a nation, and casus foederis refers to offenses or threats to another, allied, nation with which the justifying nation is engaged in a mutual defense treaty, such as NATO.[1][2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casus_belli#Greece_and_Turkey


In 1995, The Turkish Parliament issued a casus belli against Greece in reaction to an enacted extension of Greek territorial waters from 6 nautical miles (11 km) to 12 nautical miles (22 km) from the coast.[10]

Maybe you should be considering another option...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Absolutely right Dušan. Nato is a joke. If the Macedonian government has any intelligence at all, they will withdraw all Macedonian soldiers (244 of them) from the Nato-led mission in Afghanistan as a sign of protest, although, I think the Macedonian Government is too gutless to do so.

This is correct, it is thoroughly proven, after all, that the whole Afghanistan is being held together in one piece by no other than those exactly 244 soldiers...

...245 would be too much.

[Petros Houhoulis]

No NATO? Fine, when the Albanian Islamofascist rebellions begin, we'll do an Operation Storm to get the filthy Шiptars out of the country to make it safe again.

You couldn't implement an "Operation Storm" in your own backyard...

[Petros Houhoulis]

:lol: You clearly can't read. I SAID if Albanians TRY to rebel again, we will drive you animals out of Macedonia this time. Croats drove out the Serbs. You are the Serbs of South Balkans constantly masturbating over Greater Albania.

They have no need to rebel. They have placed the Albanian language all over your state anyway, and are just waiting to multiply enough to get it all.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Long before NATO there was the League of Nations and the U.N.

Did any of them manage to prevent or handle properly ANY of the Balkan wars whatsoever? Or did you forget that Yugoslavia itself was not merely a political alliance, but also a military one?

League of Nations was a failure, the UN has evolved to be nothing but a grievance club for non-Europeans. The only pro-European organization out of these is the NATO since at least only "Atlantic countries" which is basically a code word for European, Eurosphere countries. Japan is an ally of America but it's not a member of NATO whereas Turkey has took varying positions throughout history but it has proved itself to be more Euro-aligned and part of Eurosphere because of the Turkified Greeks, Slavs, etc so it is member of NATO.


Where does Bosnia relate with your accession in any international organization?

If a war breaks out in Macedonia then there's basically nothing stopping it from spilling over to other unstable regions like Kosovo or Bosnia since a war in Macedonia would be basically about Albanians wanting to annex West Macedonia.


If the Balkans are to become more peaceful, they need more democracy, not more military alliances...

I agree, the Balkans need to become much more moderate but it's not going to happen anytime soon as Greeks continue to despise us and Albanians continue to antagonize for Greater Albania.


Furthermore, NATO cannot prevent a war between its' own members. This is why Turkey has a casus belli against Greece:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casus_belli

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casus_belli#Greece_and_Turkey

Maybe you should be considering another option...

Interesting but if a war breaks out in Macedonia it won't be Albania attacking Macedonia but rather Albanian separatists in Tetovo so NATO will be at least obliged to help Macedonia preserve its territorial integrity.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Time is on our side. You see as time goes along, the west awakenes to your petty demands for changes to Balkan borders and your increasingly militant brand of Islamism. The west is at war with Islamo-Jihadists and you are showing your true colors as time goes on....

The Albanians do not need to secede from your state. They need to become majority, impose their will upon you, and then YOU SHALL DEMAND TO SECEDE from "your state"...

[Petros Houhoulis]

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/21019/2
...


HA HA HA HA HA

Do you call this a news agency?

They don't even know that a country CANNOT BE KICKED OUT OF NATO without its' own will...

[poiuytrewq0987]

You couldn't implement an "Operation Storm" in your own backyard...

Macedonia was not at all prepared to fight a war in 2001. A whole load of our armored vehicles, tanks, planes, heavy weaponry, etc were all taken by Serbs when they left Macedonia in 1991. Our army was barebones in 2001 but it has improved by a lot with a lot of Afghanistan veterans and replenished supply of vehicles and tanks, helicopters, etc today.


They have no need to rebel. They have placed the Albanian language all over your state anyway, and are just waiting to multiply enough to get it all.

Easier said than done. Another war is bound to be started by semi-educated Albanians who only have attained elementary education. They are their own worst enemies. :coffee:

[Petros Houhoulis]

League of Nations was a failure, the UN has evolved to be nothing but a grievance club for non-Europeans. The only pro-European organization out of these is the NATO since at least only "Atlantic countries" which is basically a code word for European, Eurosphere countries. Japan is an ally of America but it's not a member of NATO whereas Turkey has took varying positions throughout history but it has proved itself to be more Euro-aligned and part of Eurosphere because of the Turkified Greeks, Slavs, etc so it is member of NATO.

Yugoslavia was also an exclusively European (and exclusively Slavic) state which FAILED to prevent the breakup of itself. You conveniently forget it...


If a war breaks out in Macedonia then there's basically nothing stopping it from spilling over to other unstable regions like Kosovo or Bosnia since a war in Macedonia would be basically about Albanians wanting to annex West Macedonia.

Kossovo and Bosnia have depleted their manpower because of the previous conflicts there, and they actually know what war means, something that makes the necessity of peace dear to them. You won't explode either, because the Albanians increase their influence peacefully and they can aim to take over the whole country, and achieve that aim.


I agree, the Balkans need to become much more moderate but it's not going to happen anytime soon as Greeks continue to despise us and Albanians continue to antagonize for Greater Albania.

We have legitimate reasons to despise you. You are usurping our heritage, and also the Bulgarian heritage, and you have irredentist aspirations towards our country as well as Bulgaria, Albania, hell, sometimes even Serbia!


Interesting but if a war breaks out in Macedonia it won't be Albania attacking Macedonia but rather Albanian separatists in Tetovo so NATO will be at least obliged to help Macedonia preserve its territorial integrity.

Yet they do not move against you... They are clever enough not to piss off the west, either if you are in NATO or not. They are expecting YOU to rebel against them, which shall happen only when you shall see you entire country slipping under your feet...

[Vojnik]

They have no need to rebel. They have placed the Albanian language all over your state anyway, and are just waiting to multiply enough to get it all.

Prosfigas, stop with that bullshit, honestly. The Albanian language in Macedonia is only visible in places where there is a ethnic Albanian majority (north west Macedonia), for example on road signs, and even then, the Macedonian language is mentioned along side the Albanian language.

Prosfigas, The Albanian language is not as wide spread as you may think in that retarded head of yours. Visit places like Bitola, Prilep, Strumica, Gvegelija, Krusevo and Ohrid. You will be surprised to see that the Albanian language is almost none-existent.

Now, get off the computer, get a job and worry about whether or not you will have food to eat tomorrow.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Macedonia was not at all prepared to fight a war in 2001. A whole load of our armored vehicles, tanks, planes, heavy weaponry, etc were all taken by Serbs when they left Macedonia in 1991. Our army was barebones in 2001 but it has improved by a lot with a lot of Afghanistan veterans and replenished supply of vehicles and tanks, helicopters, etc today.

The Georgians used the experience of their veterans in Afghanistan to piss off the Russians... and look where they ended up.

Withdrawing those veterans from Afghanistan won't help you garner more experience. But NATO shall withdraw from Afghanistan sooner or later anyway.

Remember Kissingers' quote:

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/h/henry_a_kissinger_2.html


The conventional army loses if it does not win. The guerrilla wins if he does not lose.
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/h/henry_a_kissinger_2.html#hpxQ1Pt1FTw79ug0.99

You cannot win that conflict because you have insufficient economic resources, and because the enemy is already inside your country. Even if you win the war though, you could not possibly expel the Albanian population legally and you would still have painful costs and damages to deal with...

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Rome:_Total_War


The sinews of war are infinite money.
Marcus Tullius Cicero




Easier said than done. Another war is bound to be started by semi-educated Albanians who only have attained elementary education. They are their own worst enemies. :coffee:

Nope, it is done. They win concessions from you all the time. Why should they rebel now?

BTW, we are all our worst enemy:

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Rome:_Total_War


I am more afraid of our own mistakes than of our enemies' designs.

Pericles.

[Vojnik]

and are just waiting to multiply enough to get it all.

They will not get shit.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Prosfigas, stop with that bullshit, honestly. The Albanian language in Macedonia is only visible in places where there is a ethnic Albanian majority (north west Macedonia), for example on road signs, and even then, the Macedonian language is mentioned along side the Albanian language.

Prosfigas, The Albanian language is not as wide spread as you may think in that retarded head of yours. Visit places like Bitola, Prilep, Strumica, Gvegelija, Krusevo and Ohrid. You will be surprised to see that the Albanian language is almost none-existent.

Now, get of the computer, get a job and worry about whether or not you will have food to eat tomorrow.

They have established their presence in the capitol and all the state buildings. They shall expand the use of their language gradually to the rest of the country, just as they shall be expanding their personal presence. It could not possibly be otherwise.

Patience dear...

BTW, I am not a Prosfigas. I am a half-breed.

[Petros Houhoulis]

They will not get shit.

http://kurir.mk/komentari/analizi/17544-Makedoncite-stanuvaat-malcinstvo

By 2060, 1.700.000 Muslims, 700.000 Christians. Good riddance...

[Vojnik]

They have established their presence in the capitol and all the state buildings. They shall expand the use of their language gradually to the rest of the country, just as they shall be expanding their personal presence. It could not possibly be otherwise.

I admit that in some areas of Macedonia the Albanian language has been over used unnecessarily, but, the Macedonian language is still far more official and widespread then the Albanian language will ever be.

Trust me, Albanians do not want to go to places like Bitola and Prilep, where the strong majority are Macedonians. They will not expand, I think they are comfortable in there little areas.


Patience dear...

Be patient and see what will happen to Greece in the near future.


BTW, I am not a Prosfigas. I am a half-breed.

:coffee:

[Vojnik]

http://kurir.mk/komentari/analizi/17544-Makedoncite-stanuvaat-malcinstvo

By 2060, 1.700.000 Muslims, 700.000 Christians. Good riddance...

You would love to see that, wouldn't you Petrov? to bad it will only be in your wet dreams.

[Petros Houhoulis]

I admit that in some areas of Macedonia the Albanian language has been over used unnecessarily, but, the Macedonian language is still far more official and widespread then the Albanian language will ever be.

Trust me, Albanians do not want to go to places like Bitola and Prilep, where the strong majority are Macedonians. They will not expand, I think they are comfortable in there little areas.

Be patient and see what will happen to Greece in the near future.

:coffee:

Well, there is a reason the Albanians avoid those places, but if you read their posts carefully, you shall recognize that they do covet many of them. They claim them as their in their posts, and - in a legal context - they can move towards these places and establish their premises just as any other citizen of yours.

Of course they won't do so until they solve the security issue, but then, it is only a matter of time...

http://www.hrw.org/news/2001/06/07/macedonia-rioters-burn-albanian-homes-bitola


Police in the Macedonian city of Bitola did not attempt to stop rioting crowds on Wednesday night, and some police officers actively participated in the violence.

"The anti-Albanian riots in Bitola present a dangerous escalation of the crisis in Macedonia," said Holly Cartner, executive director of the Europe and Central Asia division of Human Rights Watch. "The local police must fulfill their responsibility to stop the violence, not exacerbate it."

Wednesday's anti-Albanian rioting broke out one day after five policemen, three of them from Bitola, were killed by insurgents of the ethnic Albanian National Liberation Army (NLA) on Tuesday night outside the town of Tetovo, located 150 kilometers north of Bitola. Similar anti-Albanian riots broke out in the city in late April, when eight policemen, including four from Bitola, were killed in an NLA ambush near Tetovo. Bitola, located some 170 kilometers south of Skopje, is Macedonia's third largest city, and ethnic Albanians compromise about 15 percent of its population. There has been no NLA fighting in or near the city of Bitola.

Human Rights Watch visited fourteen ethnic Albanian homes that had been gutted by fire during Wednesday night's riots and received information about other burned homes as well as extensive damage to the Albanian commercial district. The targeted homes appeared to have been carefully selected and included the homes of prominent ethnic Albanian politicians such as the Deputy Health Minister and the wealthiest ethnic Albanians.

A village mosque was also vandalized by the rioters. Grave markers were broken, and several graves had been broken open. The windows of the mosque were broken, and rioters had set the carpets inside the mosque on fire but did not succeed in burning it down. On the exterior wall of the mosque, rioters had painted several swastikas and written "Death to the Shiptars." The term "Shiptar" is an ethnic slur when used by non-Albanians.

The available evidence strongly suggests that the Bitola police did not take any actions to stop the anti-Albanian attacks and that a significant number of Bitola police officers, in and out of uniform, took part in the rioting. The police took no apparent action to enforce the 10 p.m. curfew it had announced for the town, and the rioting continued until after 1 a.m., according to official police statements. The rioting crowds claimed to be revenging the deaths of Bitola police officers that were ambushed near Tetovo.

Some of the witnesses reported that Bitola police officers had taken an active part in the rioting. According to Zini K. (see testimony below), at least one uniformed police officer and one uniformed soldier took part in the destruction and burning of his restaurant. According to Hamdi S., police officers stopped him from attempting to put out the fire to his home, and were shouting "Burn, burn for Macedonia."

Human Rights Watch called on the Macedonian Ministry of Interior to carry out an immediate investigation into the conduct of the Bitola police during the riots and urged the international community to assist and participate in the investigation.

"The conduct of the Bitola police in yesterday's riots is deeply worrying," said Cartner. "The Interior Ministry and the international community need to act now to prevent a further deterioration in police discipline."

Anti-Albanian sentiment in Bitola is rapidly growing into a campaign by extremists to rid Bitola of its ethnic Albanian population. Witnesses interviewed by Human Rights Watch stated that the rioters had yelled slogans including "Death to Albanians," "Pure Bitola," "Albanians Out of Bitola," "Get Out Albanians," and other such statements. The rioters told some of the ethnic Albanians that they had a week to get out of town before being targeted again. Many ethnic Albanians have fled their homes in Bitola in the aftermath of Wednesday's riot because they are afraid of further attacks.

"Bitola's ethnic Albanians are scared to death of what could happen next," said Cartner. "Urgent action is required to protect this vulnerable population from further attacks."

The rioting in Bitola started at about 8 p.m. in the Albanian shopping and restaurant district of the town. Sixty-four-year-old Zini K. was in his restaurant when the crowds attacked: "They entered inside [the restaurant], destroyed the place and put it on fire. Then they went to another one and they burned it as well. I had a motorbike, and they put it inside the restaurant and burned it." Zini K. managed to put out the fire, but returned the next day to find his restaurant looted and burned to the ground: "After I left, they came back to the restaurant and burned it again. It is now completely burned. Everything was looted -- our kitchen tools, tables, dishes, radio, telephone -- there is nothing left."

Zini K. then went home to Czar Samuel Street and was again faced with a very large mob shortly after 10 p.m. The mob, after damaging a mosque at the end of the street, proceeded carefully to select Albanian homes on the street and burned them down:

They had burned down my nephew's home and another relative's home. Our steel door was locked. They broke it down and started yelling, "Where are you Shiptar, Where are you Shiptar." I stepped back inside and when they saw me retreat they started throwing flames at the house. They also started burning the store in front. Then they went down a little lower and began burning another house.
Hamdi S., aged forty-two, was at home on the same street with his wife and three children when the mob approached:

At around 10:20 p.m., the lights in the houses suddenly went out. Then we heard a very big noise. First we could hear shooting. I said to my wife that they must have started burning the houses. When I went out I saw that my uncle's house was burning. After they burned his house, they came to my house. I took out my children, my eleven-year-old daughter first. At that moment, the first [Molotov] cocktail was thrown and I told my boys and my wife to run away.
The crowd started shouting, "You have one week to leave Bitola, and if you don't go to Albania we will kill you, we will make you disappear from this world." They were behaving so brutally. They were mostly from eighteen to fifty years old, no women. There were about 800 to 1,000 people in the street; the whole street from my house to the mosque was filled with people.... They were yelling "Death to the Albanians, Go to Albania" and they were also using dirty curses.

The crowd also beat some ethnic Albanians. Among those beaten was a fifty-year-old former local leader of the Democratic Party of Albanians (DPA) and his forty-seven-year-old wife. A witness who saw the beating described what he witnessed:

They broke down the fence and entered inside. First five people entered inside. They were breaking the tables inside, ripping up papers and pouring something out of a bottle. One of them set the home alight. A man and woman were on the top floor of the house when it started burning. The two were taken out of the house. They were taken into the basement and then I couldn't see them anymore. After fifteen or twenty minutes, they came back outside. They were covered with blood. The Macedonians were slapping their faces.
The beating victims had fled Bitola, but other neighbors confirmed the beatings to Human Rights Watch.

Greece shall survive no matter what, and it shall not lose territory no matter what.

[dralos]

You would love to see that, wouldn't you Petrov? to bad it will only be in your wet dreams.
then he's one lucky guy bcs albanians are rising by every day,while you guys are dropping by everyday:D

[Petros Houhoulis]

You would love to see that, wouldn't you Petrov? to bad it will only be in your wet dreams.

Well, once upon there were the Macedonians.

Then another group invaded their country and tried to exterminate them.

Since they failed and were repulsed, they are trying to convince the world that they are the Macedonians, and that the Macedonians themselves are not... Macedonians.

Nevertheless, lately another group is moving into the territory of those who want to be Macedonians themselves. Maybe, some day they shall claim that, by exterminating the wannabe Macedonians, they are entitled to be wannabe Macedonians too, just like the wannabe Macedonians tried to do before them.

If you want my opinion, and from a safe distance, I think that you are funny, and I mean both of you. Unfortunately, for each other, the "fun" takes quite different proportions...

[Queen B]

New Survey shows Greece 'most likely to get kicked out of NATO"
Wednesday, 16 May 2012

Greece is the NATO member-state most likely to be kicked out of the Alliance because of its behaviour towards Macedonia and Turkey, shows a survey of the Atlantic Council and Foreign Policy magazine.


One of the most hilarious articles I have ever read in my life :lol:



Prosfigas, The Albanian language is not as wide spread as you may think in that retarded head of yours. Visit places like Bitola, Prilep, Strumica, Gvegelija, Krusevo and Ohrid. You will be surprised to see that the Albanian language is almost none-existent.

Now, get off the computer, get a job and worry about whether or not you will have food to eat tomorrow.

Hey Bulgarian, watch your mouth a bit.

[poiuytrewq0987]

One of the most hilarious articles I have ever read in my life :lol:

They are indeed considering kicking out Greece.



They rated Greece, currently struggling to repay its crushing debt load, the top candidate to be kicked out of the Alliance, exhibited deep divides on how to handle a troubled relationship with Russia, predicted that NATO would be unable to pull off another Libya-style intervention three years from now, and overwhelmingly viewed the Afghan mission as a failure.

http://www.acus.org/event/atlantic-councilforeign-policy-survey-future-nato

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp231/innocent456/5_1.jpg

[Queen B]

They are indeed considering kicking out Greece.


http://www.acus.org/files/fpsurveyimg/5_.jpg

This is utterly stupid.
If anything, Greece is more than passive in the attitude towards Turkey.
TURKEY holds a casus belli against Greece, while Greece, instead of declaring the international waters as they are, by the convention of the law of the sea (whatever the title is) , which is to 12miles, simply stays to 6 miles.

If anyone here has an agressive attitude is Turkey, not Greece.

As for Fyrom, is something that Nato agreed already.

But what makes the article ever more stupid, and makes obvious that the answerers are probably are Fyromians, is that one answered ... Cyprus?

How fucking stupid can they be? Since when is Cyprus in Nato ????? :lol:

[poiuytrewq0987]

As for Fyrom, is something that Nato agreed already.


NATO agreed by principle because Greece is NATO member but behind the doors? NATO wants Macedonia in, not out.

[Queen B]

NATO agreed by principle because Greece is NATO member but behind the doors? NATO wants Macedonia in, not out.
They agreed, no matter what they want or don't want.
Only USA would like Fyrom in, the others, simply don't care

[poiuytrewq0987]

They agreed, no matter what they want or don't want.
Only USA would like Fyrom in, the others, simply don't care

The only thing NATO has agreed is the solution of the name dispute between Macedonia and Greece.

[Crn Volk]

http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/136320/turkey-defines-obstacles-before-macedonia-39-s-nato-membership-as-unjust.html

Turkey Defines Obstacles before Macedonia's NATO Membership as Unjust
Thursday, 17 May 2012

Turkish parliament speaker defined on Thursday obstacles put before Macedonia's NATO membership as unjust.

Cemil Cicek said Turkey's support to Macedonia's NATO membership was obvious, and it would maintain its determination to back the country's membership.

"We have no hesitations about Macedonia's NATO membership. We think it is a rightful and correct demand," Cicek told a joint press conference with his Macedonian counterpart Trajko Veljanovski in Skopje.

Cicek said Turkey supported Macedonia's reforms and efforts on road to the European Union (EU), and noted that Turkey did not think obstacles before Macedonia's NATO membership were right and just.

"Macedonia's demand is right and just, and we think it will contribute to peace and stability in the Balkans," Cicek said.

Cicek said peace, order and stability in the Balkans were for the best interests of every one.

Veljanovski, in his part, underlined importance of Turkey's support for his country's NATO membership.

Parliament Speaker Cicek later met members of Macedonian-Turkish Friendship Group, and attended a luncheon hosted in his honor by Veljanovski.

Macedonia has, like Albania and Croatia, been participating in the Membership Action Plan (MAP) for a number of years to prepare for possible membership.

Last week, Macedonia's prime minister urged NATO members to give his country another chance to join the alliance at its summit in Chicago later this month. The alliance rejected Macedonia's previous bid in 2008, following objections from neighboring Greece.

Athens has a dispute with Skopje over Macedonia's name, which Greece claims could imply claims on its own northern province also called Macedonia. Under a 1995 bilateral agreement, Greece had agreed not to block Macedonia's membership in international organizations if it used the name "the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM)."

Turkey recognizes Macedonia by its own constitutional name, "Republic of Macedonia".

Macedonia has been friendly to NATO since its independence, allowing US troops to use its territory as a staging ground during the Yugoslav wars.

Thursday, 17 May 2012

Anadolu Agency

[iNird]

Look at NATO trolling you guys hard:

http://www.chicagonato.org/former-yugoslav-republic-of-macedonia-member-51.php?page_id=264


Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia*


*Turkey recognizes the Republic of Macedonia under its constitutional name.


The western part of the country, where most ethnic Albanians live, is the most heavily populated, with approximately 40% of the total population.


Other Cities: Tetovo, Kumanovo, Gostivar, and Bitola

:icon_lol:

[poiuytrewq0987]

Look at NATO trolling you guys hard:

http://www.chicagonato.org/former-yugoslav-republic-of-macedonia-member-51.php?page_id=264




:icon_lol:

And your point is? When Bulgaria and Macedonia join in a federation. Albanians'll go back to a shitstain minority of only 5% of total population.

[iNird]

When Bulgaria and Macedonia join in a federation.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

[poiuytrewq0987]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/you+mad+bro_edb36c_3429172.jpg

[iNird]

Trying to find FYROM on the map in 20 years........

http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd321/34tmyl337/Misc/icantseeshit.jpg

:D

[poiuytrewq0987]

Trying to find FYROM on the map in 20 years........

http://i528.photobucket.coalbums/dd321/34tmyl337/Misc/icantseeshit.jpg

:D

In 20 years all Albanians will be deported to Turkey. Sounds good.

[iNird]

In 20 years all Albanians will be deported to Turkey. Sounds good.

All fear the macedonian army with the Japanese looking flag.

:eek:

[alb0zfinest]

Well, in that case I have to state that my comment was misunderstood. There are some fringe liberals who use the term "Taliban", but they are certainly not representative of the Albanian population as a whole.

As for faith preservation, these people are isolated in the mountains, Albania proper has a long coastline and contacts with the rest of the world. As a result the Albanians in Albania are more open minded, while the mountaineers are more conservative, Yugoslavia or no Yugoslavia.

Either you like it or not, their conservatism and adherence to religion shall be maintained under whatever regime...

Not really, Albanians in the south lived around the coast but the northern Albanians lived in the mountains yet they are just as open minded as the southern Albanians. In Kosovo now they're much more American influenced, and for this reason are starting to become irreligious. In fact in Prishtina where 90% of the Albanian inhabitants are "muslim" a large cathedral is being build right in the middle of the capital. http://www.google.com/imgres?q=cathedral+in+kosovo&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1280&bih=918&tbm=isch&tbnid=8vJ1pJevH5QObM:&imgrefurl=http://www.flickriver.com/photos/trainplanepro/5470629973/&docid=3v78jhM11rrm_M&imgurl=http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5054/5470629973_164a0f0ee9.jpg&w=500&h=351&ei=KLG2T6ikIubb6gGxpMDKCg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=647&vpy=148&dur=477&hovh=188&hovw=268&tx=179&ty=70&sig=101309871082758405579&page=1&tbnh=130&tbnw=172&start=0&ndsp=30&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:0,i:80
Slowly the same thing will happen to the Albanians of Fyrom as well.

[Petros Houhoulis]

They are indeed considering kicking out Greece.

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp231/innocent456/5_1.jpg

...And they are also considering to kick Cyprus out of NATO too?

CYPRUS???

CYPRUS IS NOT A MEMBER OF NATO!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO


Formation 4 April 1949
Type Military alliance
Headquarters Brussels, Belgium
Membership 28 states[hide] Albania
Belgium
Bulgaria
Canada
Croatia
Czech Republic
Denmark
Estonia
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Iceland
Italy
Latvia
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Norway
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Slovakia
Slovenia
Spain
Turkey
United Kingdom
United States


Listen up Sebastos, I recognize this nonsense as another attempt to threaten Greece with all sorts of things if it keeps rebelling against the Eurozone, but this is as far as I can accept it. Beyond that, it's bullcrap.

Reuters is excelling at that sort of bullcrap lately too, but their intentions are essentially good. Scare now to have a peace of mind later...

Beyond that, there is no provision for kicking someone out of NATO, thus the point is moot...

[Petros Houhoulis]

The only thing NATO has agreed is the solution of the name dispute between Macedonia and Greece.

...And for that to happen, Greece must agree...

...Remember?

[Petros Houhoulis]

http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/136320/turkey-defines-obstacles-before-macedonia-39-s-nato-membership-as-unjust.html

Turkey...


Who gives a rat's arse about what Turkey wants in NATO. Turkey was holding NATO hostage many times, once over the common E.U. defense project, another because of Rasmoussens' ascendance as secretary general:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Fogh_Rasmussen#NATO_Secretary_General


Anders Fogh Rasmussen became the 12th NATO Secretary General on 1 August 2009, succeeding Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, who held the post from 2004 until 2009.[1] The announcement was made on 4 April 2009, at the 2009 Strasbourg–Kehl summit in Strasbourg. During the final selection process only one country, Turkey, remained opposed to Rasmussen's candidacy, partly because of his handling of the cartoon episode in 2005, when the publication in some Danish newspapers of cartoons of Muhammad caused violent protests.[14][15] Another major point of Turkey's opposition was Denmark's tolerance of Roj TV,[14][15] which is claimed by the Turkish government to be a mouthpiece for the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK). Eventually, Turkey withdrew its opposition to Rasmussen's appointment when it received assurances from US president Barack Obama that Turkish officials would be appointed to three high posts in NATO.

So Turkey was furious because the Danes respect freedom of speech, something that the Turks cannot tolerate, not just in Turkey but also accross the E.U. Either is it about some silly cartoons or the fact that the Turks have burnt 4.000 Kurdish villages, any information has to be censored if it does not serve Turkeys' interests!

NATO has been vetoed for far sillier reasons, get used to it!

[Petros Houhoulis]

And your point is? When Bulgaria and Macedonia join in a federation. Albanians'll go back to a shitstain minority of only 5% of total population.

Not likely. You cannot dissolve your state simply like that... The Albanians shall demand to unite either with Albania or Kossovo, and who can prevent them from doing what you would be doing too?

[Queen B]

...And they are also considering to kick Cyprus out of NATO too?

CYPRUS???

CYPRUS IS NOT A MEMBER OF NATO!!!



This shows how great this source and article is :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

[poiuytrewq0987]

Our legal standing has been confirmed by the International Court of Justice's recent ruling that Greece's 2008 action violated international law. And our nation has been heartened by steps taken by the U.S. Congress -- namely, the introduction of the NATO Enhancement Act of 2012, and a call by 54 members of Congress for President Barack Obama to support NATO membership for Macedonia in Chicago. In other NATO capitals as well, there is a growing consensus that Macedonia should not be needlessly obstructed from joining the alliance.

Macedonia could take its deserved position in NATO if Greece simply abides by the 1995 Interim Accord between our countries, reached with support from the U.S. government and facilitated by the late Richard Holbrooke, where Greece agreed not to obstruct Macedonia's membership in international organizations provided that we apply using a provisional name.

More: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/letters/chi-120519ivanoff_briefs,0,7031099.story

[Petros Houhoulis]

Our legal standing has been confirmed by the International Court of Justice's recent ruling that Greece's 2008 action violated international law. And our nation has been heartened by steps taken by the U.S. Congress -- namely, the introduction of the NATO Enhancement Act of 2012, and a call by 54 members of Congress for President Barack Obama to support NATO membership for Macedonia in Chicago. In other NATO capitals as well, there is a growing consensus that Macedonia should not be needlessly obstructed from joining the alliance.

Macedonia could take its deserved position in NATO if Greece simply abides by the 1995 Interim Accord between our countries, reached with support from the U.S. government and facilitated by the late Richard Holbrooke, where Greece agreed not to obstruct Macedonia's membership in international organizations provided that we apply using a provisional name.

More: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/letters/chi-120519ivanoff_briefs,0,7031099.story

For the moment the U.N. accepted that:

Greece violated the agreement once at a NATO summit.

You violated the agreement once with Milososki holding the "Aegae Star".

...And it refused to take a position in relation to the fundamental question, of what the name should be. It also refused to force NATO to take any decision, now or in the future.

Bring the U.S. Congress resolution, because we are lacking a source, still, the U.S.A. cannot force Greece to abandon its' VETO. Your Presidents' opinion DOESN"T COUNT.

...And above all, you have violated the interim agreement a gazillion times with the new statues! This time, we might take you to court TO ANNUL THE AGREEMENT...

...Which, by the way, could have expired already... It was supposed to several years ago!

Keep messing with our history and name, and you'll get NO NATO.

PERIOD.

[alb0zfinest]

Albania too should attempt to block Macedonia from Nato, because of the minority treatmeant. Not that it will make a significant difference but two heads are better then one :)

[iNird]

Albania too should attempt to block Macedonia from Nato, because of the minority treatmeant. Not that it will make a significant difference but two heads are better then one :)

Macedonia would need approval of all the existing member states to join NATO, thus, Albania could block Macedonia's acceptance on it's own (as I understand it.) Still Albania has been part of NATO for a few years and should not try something so bold, let the Greeks do it for us.....

[alb0zfinest]

Macedonia would need approval of all the existing member states to join NATO, thus, Albania could block Macedonia's acceptance on it's own (as I understand it.) Still Albania has been part of NATO for a few years and should not try something so bold, let the Greeks do it for us.....

Thats one of the risks also facing albania, they could possibly be rejected by Serbia for e.U accession. Hopefully the elections in July will go smooth and Albania will get candidate status.

[poiuytrewq0987]

NATO has come to the same conclusion about Macedonia’s bid as the one reached at the summit in Bucharest in 2008, the Macedonian daily Dnevnik writes.

In a declaration the member states of the Alliance attending the Chicago summit say that Skopje will receive an invitation to join NATO, when it solves the name dispute with Greece. The document also reads that the solution to the name issue and NATO membership will contribute to the peace and stability in the region.

http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?id=n278547

:laugh:

[poiuytrewq0987]

Skopje, May 22. (MIA). It is disgraceful that Macedonia has not received a membership invitation at the Chicago summit. The permanent blockade of Macedonia's NATO accession is unjustified, says former Alliance Secretary-General George Robertson.

"Macedonia has met all membership criteria and plays a non-proportional role in NATO peacekeeping operations. This fact means membership. In 2001, Macedonia was faced with a real challenge for Europe, but also for the world. It managed to overcome a conflict through an agreement that is a model for many generations", Robertson told Macedonian Television programme "Porta".

He criticizes NATO member-states for not finding a way to include Macedonia in the Alliance, since the country cannot solve the dispute with Greece by its own.

"More efforts should be put into overcoming all obstacles of the Macedonian membership. If not, the founding principles of the Alliance will be abandoned", underlines former NATO chief George Robertson.

http://bsanna-news.ukrinform.ua/newsitem.php?id=19648&lang=en

[MegaArgus1]

My proposal how to solve the Macedonian - Greek name dispute:

1. Macedonia should withdraw the application for NATO membership and cancel any cooperation with NATO.

2. Macedonia should also withdraw the application for EU membership.

3. Macedonia should leave the UN.

The reference FIROM will disappear as soon as the above is done.

what happens then?

Macedonia will collaborate only with the countries who recognized us under our constitutional name...the macedonian - greek border will be closed..all cooperation with france and germany will be cancelled....

the list of our friends is quite long over 130 countries have recognized us as Macedonia...we don't need greece nor france or germany

[Crn Volk]

My proposal how to solve the Macedonian - Greek name dispute:

1. Macedonia should withdraw the application for NATO membership and cancel any cooperation with NATO.

2. Macedonia should also withdraw the application for EU membership.

3. Macedonia should leave the UN.

The reference FIROM will disappear as soon as the above is done.

what happens then?

Macedonia will collaborate only with the countries who recognized us under our constitutional name...the macedonian - greek border will be closed..all cooperation with france and germany will be cancelled....

the list of our friends is quite long over 130 countries have recognized us as Macedonia...we don't need greece nor france or germany


Not being a member of the UN effectively means you cease to be a recognised nation. You become something like Taiwan or Kosovo.

[MegaArgus1]

Not being a member of the UN effectively means you cease to be a recognised nation. You become something like Taiwan or Kosovo.

Not exactly ....it will provoke the UN members to think what injustice is going on for the last 21 years only because one nation is not satisfied with the name of another..and if that is international practice then UN had missed its purpose...otherwise we will continue to be disregarded in indefinite duration and that works for those who make that oppression...something has to be done to awake the international conscience if we are willing to preserve our survival

[Crn Volk]

Not exactly ....it will provoke the UN members to think what injustice is going on for the last 21 years only because one nation is not satisfied with the name of another..and if that is international practice then UN had missed its purpose...otherwise we will continue to be disregarded in indefinite duration and that works for those who make that oppression...something has to be done to awake the international conscience if we are willing to preserve our survival

I agree something has to be done, but dropping out of the UN is not it. Sure, giving up on NATO and the EU is fine. We should look at other organisations such as the CSTO instead of NATO for our security. Regarding the UN, perhaps an appeal to the security council, or a legal challenge is more warranted.

[MegaArgus1]

I agree something has to be done, but dropping out of the UN is not it. Sure, giving up on NATO and the EU is fine. We should look at other organisations such as the CSTO instead of NATO for our security. Regarding the UN, perhaps an appeal to the security council, or a legal challenge is more warranted.

OK let say to remain at UN...but have in mind that there we are not recognized as Macedonia and leaving the UN does not necessarily follow that all of the 133 counties who recognized us under our constitutional name will cancel the recognition it will rather make them think what is wrong with the UN if one country is allowed to dictate its will

Regarding NATO I cannot see its purpose..for what we need NATO???? to defend against who??? Regarding our security the times are changed and the wars of the small counties are over now the big players are deciding who will live who will vanish ..the biggest player the US have recognized us as Macedonia and we are fighting with them in Afghanistan and that cold be promising for the present

[Crn Volk]

OK let say to remain at UN...but have in mind that there we are not recognized as Macedonia and leaving the UN does not necessarily follow that all of the 133 counties who recognized us under our constitutional name will cancel the recognition it will rather make them think what is wrong with the UN if one country is allowed to dictate its will

Regarding NATO I cannot see its purpose..for what we need NATO???? to defend against who??? Regarding our security the times are changed and the wars of the small counties are over now the big players are deciding who will live who will vanish ..the biggest player the US have recognized us as Macedonia and we are fighting with them in Afghanistan and that cold be promising for the present

NATO is struggling to be relavent, and the EU is in crisis. I think our leadership should at least put a pause on any plans for joining these organisations. The big powers have always called the shots, nothing new here.

[Crn Volk]

http://www.eurasiareview.com/23052012-macedonia-gruevski-responds-bluntly-natos-decision/

Macedonia: Gruevski Responds Bluntly To NATO’s Decision

By: SETimes

May 23, 2012
By Misko Taleski

Macedonia Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski gave NATO a stinging rebuke on Tuesday (May 22nd) after the organisation passed on the option to extend membership to his country due to Greece’s longtime objections.

The rejection was expected by observers, but that didn’t keep Gruevski from bitterly criticising NATO in an interview Tuesday with the Macedonian Information Agency (MIA).

“Such a policy of double standards, unprincipled-ness and moving away from the values they themselves publicly proclaim, I have not seen in a long time as is the case with Macedonia. They are ignoring the International Court of Justice ruling,” Gruevski said, referring to a December 2011 decision in which the court concluded that Greece had violated a 1995 Interim Accord when it vetoed Macedonia’s bid for NATO membership in 2008.

Gruevski’s unusually frank language reflects the disappointment for Macedonians, where recent polls showed that 85% of the population wanted the nation to be a NATO member. Newspaper headlines in Macedonia called the two-day Chicago summit a “disgrace.”

“Finally, somebody expressed that which the people think, being fully aware about the inequalities and realities of international politics. The choice NATO gives Macedonia to appease Greece, is no choice; we will never change nor should change our name. If NATO does not want us in as Macedonia, we should reconsider our commitment to the alliance,” Borche Ristevski, 32, a resident of Skopje, told SETimes.

While criticising some of the Western leaders, Gruevski said the sole culprit is Greece, which he said has used all means at its disposal over the past two decades to slow Macedonia’s development because of the longstanding disagreement over Macedonia’s name.

“These countries [NATO members] I consider our friends, but they are at the same time greater friends of Greece. That is how it was in the past 21 years and that is why Greece succeeds at harassing Macedonia to the maximum, without facing serious consequences,” said Gruevski. Macedonians say anything but the name “Republic of Macedonia” denies the nation’s right of identity. Greece has said the name is an implied threat towards its province of the same name.

Macedonia has been recognised by more than 100 countries and was admitted to the UN in 1993, but in that body — and most other international organisations — is identified as “the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.” Macedonia applied for NATO membership in 2005 and believed that it would be accepted in 2008, but Greece blocked a formal invitation

Despite the latest disappointment, Gruevski stressed that Macedonia remains committed to eventual membership. “We will remain dedicated to materialising our strategic goal for NATO membership and will work towards it. If somebody tells the truth, it does not mean he is picking a fight with the strategic partners,” Gruevski concluded.

Most analysts said the speech was a call to unite the country politically and that Gruevski –without question — succeeded.

“Gruevski has struck a chord with the people because he is the first Macedonian leader to state things as they objectively are, despite a potential threat to his position. The interview channeled the pain Macedonians feel while affected in every way possible by Greece’s blockages and obfuscation internationally,” Vladimir Bozhinovski, analyst at the Institute for Political Research, told SETimes.

“The speech also lays the ground for Macedonia to define its ‘red line’ regarding the Greek-imposed name issue,” he added.

Current and former policy makers expressed support, particularly praising the importance domestic policy continues to place on the rule of law as well as international law tenants.

“If Macedonia sends most soldiers to NATO missions per capita; if its soldiers fight terrorism in Afghanistan and Iraq with high-level professionalism as NATO allies; if we have satisfied all standards and criteria, achieved all reforms and are not getting anything in response, then Macedonia is right to be critical about the processes and the behaviour of some states,” Slobodan Chashule, Macedonia’s former foreign minister, told SETimes.

“In the case of Greece, it appears here that NATO and the EU are rewarding bad behaviour. Such an approach is already very costly for the EU, and we hope it will not be similarly costly to NATO,” Chashule said.

[MegaArgus1]

NATO is struggling to be relavent, and the EU is in crisis. I think our leadership should at least put a pause on any plans for joining these organisations. The big powers have always called the shots, nothing new here.

whatever the macedonian leadership do should call international attention ..

[Yaroslav]

One way to resist New World Order is to exit from United Nations.

[MegaArgus1]

One way to resist New World Order is to exit from United Nations.

It could be true but it may lead to chaos ....I suggested Macedonia admitted to UN as FYROM to leave UN as FYROM and next day to reapply ...comparing to 1993 when as FYROM Macedonia become a member only few countries have had recognized Macedonia under its constitutional name but in 2012 more than 130 countries including the leading wold powers (excluding france and germany) have recognized macedonia ...so greece cannot veto our readmission ...france can but UN is not EU so france doesn't have such obligation

[poiuytrewq0987]

“The real question is not whether but when Macedonia will become a member of NATO,” said US Ambassador to Skopje Paul Wohlers, as cited by the online edition of Macedonian Vest daily.

Wohlers, together with the head of the General Staff of the Macedonian Army, visited the ‘Cooperative Longbow/Lancer 2012’ military training at Krivolak range.
The US ambassador remarked that Macedonia should solve the name issue and immediately become a member of the Alliance.

http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?id=n278760

[MegaArgus1]

I cannot understand the statement "Macedonia should solve the name issue" it is common knowledge that macedonia doesn't have issue with its name that is greece who has issue with the name of the macedonian state so if somebody has to overcome that issue is greece. Anyway