Immigrants in Greece

[alb0zfinest]

Said who? An Albanian? Get back the -more than 1 million - of your compatriots, and the talk about it.

But even with the crisis, even with millions of immigrants, we have half the unemployment that Fyrom has.

And we don't build ugly statues (we have them since antiquity) and if we did (and not during bad economic times) we don't brag about em !



The article - however- is rediculous. A Greek will go
1) to a country that won't have problems with papers and permit
2) A country with bigger salary than Greece has (so can sent back to Greece, what's left)
3) A country with a strong Greek community.

Yes, lately many Greeks are leaving the country. To US, Canada, Australia, UK or Germany. As they did in the past.

Just one thing to point out, you can have millions of immigrants and greatly benefit from them.

[Queen B]

Just one thing to point out, you can have millions of immigrants and greatly benefit from them.
We don't benefit though..
You know why?Many , if not most, of them are illegal --> no taxes payed
Also, the criminality have risen, and 2/3 of crimes are commited by immigrants, who are 2 millions, while Greeks are 11.

[Onur]

We don't benefit though..
You know why?Many , if not most, of them are illegal --> no taxes payed
Also, the criminality have risen, and 2/3 of crimes are commited by immigrants, who are 2 millions, while Greeks are 11.
Because your immigrants didn't and doesn't wanna stay in Greece at first place. They wanna go to western Europe but due to the agreements between Greece and EU, western European states are abusing you as some kind of dumping ground for illegal immigrants because supposedly they entered EU from Greece.

This is your country`s one of the few uses for EU`s big guns, just as they are using Romania and Bulgaria for dumping gypsies. They are abusing Greece and imho, you should abandon those agreements and let immigrants go where they wanna go and don't accept them back again. If western Europeans doesn't want them in their country, then they should deport them to their home country, not to the Greece. I have no idea how come you do that tough because you are completely hostage to them, a colony of Brussels.

EU wanted to trick Turkey childishly by saying that Turkey is the so-called EU candidate and supposedly, we should accept illegal immigrants from Greece because they used Turkish sea and soil while going to EU. Ofc we are not idiots and we didn't accept that stupid offer.

[Queen B]

Because your immigrants didn't and doesn't wanna stay in Greece at first place. They wanna go to western Europe but due to the agreements between Greece and EU, western European states are abusing you as some kind of dumping ground for illegal immigrants because supposedly they entered EU from Greece.

This is truth.
This is what EU does, but also, they entered from Greece, and you know exactly from where.
:coffee:


This is your country`s one of the few uses for EU`s big guns, just as they are using Romania and Bulgaria for dumping gypsies. They are abusing Greece and imho, you should abandon those agreements and let immigrants go where they wanna go and don't accept them back again. If western Europeans doesn't want them in their country, then they should deport them to their home country, not to the Greece. I have no idea how come you do that tough because you are completely hostage to them, a colony of Brussels.

I just hope we can do this. We have tones of illegals, even Europeans (Albanians).
They add NOTHING, except criminility, illegal profits of non-taxed goods, infections, and a bad image.


lol. That tiny little thing doesn't even compare to the numerous Greek ones.

http://www.water-park.gr/home.html (Rhodes)
http://www.aqualand-corfu.com/ (Corfu) *Aqualand Corfu, largest water park in Greece and third in Europe
http://www.koswaterpark.com/info1.php (Kos)
http://www.zantewatervillage.gr/attractions/ (Zakynthos)
http://www.waterland.gr/#/experience (Thessaloniki)
http://www.watercity.gr/watergames.php (Crete)
http://www.acquaplus.gr/index.php?menu_id=3 (Crete) *first water park in the Balkan region
http://www.breathtakingathens.com/node/4389 (Athens)
http://www.limnoupolis.gr/en/games.php (Crete)

I have been to the Zakynthos, and Athens' ones.

[alb0zfinest]

We don't benefit though..
You know why?Many , if not most, of them are illegal --> no taxes payed
Also, the criminality have risen, and 2/3 of crimes are commited by immigrants, who are 2 millions, while Greeks are 11.

The tax problem is your fault, they can't pay taxes without citizenship. Crime rate obviously tends to be high with the Greek crisis transpiring, the immigrants are the ones that are most effected.

[alb0zfinest]

This is truth.
This is what EU does, but also, they entered from Greece, and you know exactly from where.
:coffee:

I just hope we can do this. We have tones of illegals, even Europeans (Albanians).
They add NOTHING, except criminility, illegal profits of non-taxed goods, infections, and a bad image.



I have been to the Zakynthos, and Athens' ones.

But i suppose all the Albanians working in sectors that Greeks
would never want to work in count as nothing? :rolleyes2:

[Queen B]

The tax problem is your fault, they can't pay taxes without citizenship. Crime rate obviously tends to be high with the Greek crisis transpiring, the immigrants are the ones that are most effected.
What are you talking about?

Immigrant legal = Pays taxes
Immigrant illegal = Doesn't pay taxes

Citizenship = Voting
No citizenship = No voting

No, crime rate was high already, way before the crisis (from the late 90s, to the start of 2000s, till now).

[alb0zfinest]

What are you talking about?

Immigrant legal = Pays taxes
Immigrant illegal = Doesn't pay taxes

Citizenship = Voting
No citizenship = No voting

No, crime rate was high already, way before the crisis (from the late 90s, to the start of 2000s, till now).

Exacly my point, most of them are illegal. less then 500,000 of those 1million Albanians hold citizenship.
If they are illegal = no work number = can't work = doing criminal activities.

[Queen B]

But i suppose all the Albanians working in sectors that Greeks
would never want to work in count as nothing? :rolleyes2:

First of all, not all of the Albanians are legal.
Many of legals, work in sectors that Greeks 1) don't wanna work or 2) will ask for more money
Also, Albanians get more benefits than Greeks, in some specific things.

[alb0zfinest]

First of all, not all of the Albanians are legal.
Many of legals, work in sectors that Greeks 1) don't wanna work or 2) will ask for more money
Also, Albanians get more benefits than Greeks, in some specific things.

Isint that what i just said?

Just because they ask for more money doesnt mean they'll get it.
Really? for instance?
This goes back to my previous statement
"Exacly my point, most of them are illegal. less then 500,000 of those 1million Albanians hold citizenship.
If they are illegal = no work number = can't work = doing criminal activities"

[Queen B]

Isint that what i just said?

Just because they ask for more money doesnt mean they'll get it.
Really? for instance?

1) Not exactly, because f.e. a job like in construction, a Greek always did, and had no problem do, but an Albanian comes, say ''I ll do the same with less and/or with no security (black market) (means, no health care, and working stamps*).''
2) I also said about illegals, because not all Albanians are legals.

*working stamps = you have to have enough of them, in order to get pension.

Anyway

3) For example, I can't take the permit to open a periptero(Kiosk, something like mini market, google it). I have to be disabled to take this permit, as a Greek. An Albanian can.

I will move this off topic to another thread, tommorow tho, coz i m from the netbook and my pc is not yet connected.
We will continue the discussion there, okay?

[alb0zfinest]

1) Not exactly, because f.e. a job like in construction, a Greek always did, and had no problem do, but an Albanian comes, say ''I ll do the same with less and/or with no security (black market) (means, no health care, and working stamps*).''
2) I also said about illegals, because not all Albanians are legals.

*working stamps = you have to have enough of them, in order to get pension.

Anyway

3) For example, I can't take the permit to open a periptero(Kiosk, something like mini market, google it). I have to be disabled to take this permit, as a Greek. An Albanian can.

I will move this off topic to another thread, tommorow tho, coz i m from the netbook and my pc is not yet connected.
We will continue the discussion there, okay?

My response will be were ever you decide to move the off topic.

[Queen B]

Exacly my point, most of them are illegal. less then 500,000 of those 1million Albanians hold citizenship.
If they are illegal = no work number = can't work = doing criminal activities.
No, its not your point. You talked about citizenship.
A legal citizen =/=

Illegal = No papers. Don't know if he is a convict there or not, don't hold any identification papers.

Illegals should be deported, or bring LEGAL papers of how they entered the country, and who they are.

[Incal]

LOL if they are illegal they have to go home.

[Queen B]

LOL if they are illegal they have to go home.

Exactly. He has to bring paper. How the f### are we suppose to know WHO they are and WHAT they did in their countries?

[rashka]

I think that is the problem. The illegal people are being taught to throw out their identification papers when they enter a European country that does not deport such people due to certain laws and obligations.
Would you know what law that is and which one it is that they are following? I know this is a question for a law expert.

[Incal]

^^ Another reason these smart motherfuckers throw their papers away is because that way the authorities don't know where to ship them back lol.

[alb0zfinest]

No, its not your point. You talked about citizenship.
A legal citizen =/=

Illegal = No papers. Don't know if he is a convict there or not, don't hold any identification papers.

Illegals should be deported, or bring LEGAL papers of how they entered the country, and who they are.

What does this mean to you? (thats the same point i was making)
If they are illegal = no work number = can't work = doing criminal activities
The point you were making was that Greece does not benefit from immigrants, and that they cause most of the crime.
Where i responded: That if it wasnt for Albanians Greeks wouldn't do the dirty jobs that Albanians do.
As for the crime if they are illegal they have no work number which means they cant work, therefore having to find other means of recieveing money and therefore become criminals. Capish now?
And like i previously said, crime rate probably increased because of the Greek economic crisis. You stated it was always "high" yet you failed to provide proof of this.

[iNird]

http://www.ce-review.org/99/21/vidali21.html

This article from 1999 seems to be fair and well balanced from both sides.

[iNird]

Greece has become a popular haven for Albanian emigrants in the last decade, many of whom cross the border illegally. This exodus has strained relations between the two countries, tensions that are further exacerbated by a lack of concrete immigration policies in either country, proper institutions and dialogue between the two states.

Greek-Albanian relations have been revived since the latter's Communist regime fell in 1991 and the country emerged from self-imposed isolation. An important element in these relations is the presence of a considerable Albanian immigrant population in Greece.

The rising wave of crime in Greece in recent years has been often attributed to Albanian immigrants and has been used as a pretext for retaliatory policies towards them. Negative stereotypes are constructed and regularly revived in the Greek media and by certain political personalities. The consequent xenophobic feelings fermented amongst the Greek population have then been used to justify government actions.

These hard line policies have served two aims. Firstly, they have covered up the lack of a coherent Greek immigration policy which would have prevented the rise in crime figures and the exploitation of immigrants through passport and visas falsification rackets, protection and the smuggling of people.

Secondly, they have served as a means of exerting pressure whenever tensions have arisen in interstate relations. The Greek government has often used the violent repatriation of Albanian illegal workers (the so-called "Broom" operations) as a means of putting pressure on Tirana. It has also occasionally limited the availability of visas and work permits for Albanians for the same reason. Similarly, concessions towards Albanian immigrants have been used to create a positive climate whenever it was convenient for better investment opportunities and for a better treatment of the ethnic Greeks in return. Albania, on her part, has often used "carrot concessions" towards Greek investors and businessmen, in order to secure the favourable treatment of Albanian immigrants by the Greek State.

Albanian migration

The transition from a centrally planned to market economy has been very hard for Albania. The shock therapy began in 1991. Hundreds of thousands were left unemployed as 90% of the factories were closed. The legacy of the inefficient economic model during the Communist regime, the economic crisis of the 1980s, the breakdown of the economic structures and the revolts of 1991 and 1997 were just a few of the many factors responsible for creating the economic plight during of the transition period.

Albanian migration became the solution to the enormous problems of satisfying even basic needs and was aided by the slackening of border controls that followed the anti-Communist uprisings at the end of 1990. There were about 400,000 Albanians working abroad in 1996, sending home about USD 500 million per year. This money was particularly important for the survival of the people remaining in Albania and for the development of the private sector.[1]

The first great exodus of Albanian refugees crossed the borders with Greece and the sea to Italy during the crisis of 1991-92. At that time, the reasons for leaving the country were mainly political, as these people disliked the Communist regime and wished for change. At that time the Greek government decided to open the borders and issued a large number of visas, in order to let the members of the Greek minority reunite with their families over the border. Many of whom had been separated for over 40 years. Many ethnic Albanians also crossed the border at this time. Since then, the reasons for emigrating have changed, now they are usually economic ones rather than political. Greek official policy has also changed.

The total number of immigrants, both legal and illegal, in Greece is thought to be between 400,000 and two million, an estimated 10% to 20% of the Greek work force.[2] The number of Albanian migrants who crossed into Greece between 1990 and 1994 has been estimated at 250,000.[3] Greece was usually their main destination and the natural choice for the majority of Albanian economic migrants in the period 1991-1999. Especially once the sea routes to Italy were blocked after stricter controls were introduced at ports on both sides of the Adriatic. On the other hand, the border between Greece and Albania is long and difficult to police and people are able to enter the country by walking across the mountainous frontier.

Official Greek reaction

The Greek State was not prepared to accept such an enormous influx of migrants. Besides, Greece had never experienced such a phenomenon before. In the period 1991-1998, there was no concrete migration policy, as the country was still considered to be a net "exporter" of population.[4] Specialist institutions, such as advice centres for the legal, social and economic orientation of immigrants (especially children), hardly existed. Furthermore, Albanians - and other - immigrants were excluded from aid by the social services, especially regarding the provision of housing, health care and personal safety, which is provided to Greek citizens by the state and Albanians found it difficult to satisfy certain needs, such as political, cultural and social expression, recreation and socialisation.[5]

The truth is that neither of the two governments involved had any proper policies for facing these needs or the results of rising criminal activity (as the result of either Greeks or others) connected with immigration until recently. As a consequence the distribution and sale of fake visas, passports and work permits has shown that there is a perfect collaboration between Greeks and non-Greeks in certain areas.

Significance for the Albanian economy

The importance of economic migration for Albania is paramount, because it is a kind of "development aid" through the export of labour force. Remittances are an indispensable financial source for the development of the Albanian private sector. Especially as other sources - domestic savings, export revenues, external borrowing, foreign investments, development aids, etc.- were insufficient during 1991-99. Moreover, the majority of Albanian families have been dependent on them for their survival. Remittances for 1991 have been estimated at USD 548.5 million and at USD 364 million for 1992. The majority of these payments came from Greece (82.2% in both years) and much of the rest from Italy (13.2%). In addition, technical knowledge and work experience, obtained by Albanian workers in Greece, were used to modernise production, as soon as immigrants returned to Albania.[6] Immigration had a political importance as well, as a key for releasing tensions that would have created anarchy and a further rise in crime, if all these unemployed people had stayed in the country.

Positive and negative consequences on the Greek economy

Theodoros Dizelos has given a comprehensive account of the consequences for the Greek economy of the employment of foreign workers in general, Albanian workers in particular. One of the positive consequences (for the economy, if not the workers) was that Albanians are employed with lower wages and often without social security. This leads to lower production costs and has a positive effect on the competitiveness of the Greek exports. Albanian workers exert a positive influence on Greek GNP, especially in the primary sector, where most of them are employed. They also contribute to the increase of the total consumer expenditure and to the income of certain categories of Greek citizens, such as owners of real estate. In other words, Albanian workers and their families help increase the private consumption of goods and services, although to a rather small extent, because their main aim is to save money through limited consumption.[7]

Moreover, undocumented workers form a readily available, flexible, occasional, disorganised labour force. Small Greek enterprises, facing bankruptcy and closure, have substantially benefited from these workers. Their economic survival has been secured by paying them very little or nothing - less than 2,000 drachma (USD 6) per day in 1994 -, avoiding social security costs, and by employing them only whenever they need them. The majority of Albanians are employed as unskilled workers in building sites, transportation, in middle-class houses and as transient agricultural workers. Very often they do jobs that Greeks do not want to do - hard, badly paid, temporary jobs, without standard working hours or social security.

Finally, it should be noted that Albanian children and teenagers, especially those between ten and seventeen years old, have fuelled the sex industry in Athens and the provinces.[8]

If the above constitute the "positive" consequences on the Greek economy (if not in moral terms), the negative consequences include an increase in unemployment in manual jobs, while unemployment in skilled work has not been affected. Moreover, in many cases, the low salaries paid to Albanian immigrants have pushed away Greek workers, especially in the industrial sector, in construction and in quarries. As a result there has been a general fall in pay in these sectors, and the position of the labouring class has become weaker, as a consequence of the abundance of alternative and cheaper employees.

We should also refer to the remittances sent by the immigrants to their families in Albania as a negative consequence, in the sense that part of the Greek GNP and foreign exchange is flowing out of the country. Finally, Greek public spending is increasing due to the immigrants. More precisely, the editing of visas and massive repatriations of illegal migrants is costing millions of US dollars to the Greek state. Moreover, there has been a loss of tax revenues, as the income of Albanian workers is often untaxed.[9]

Threats to Greek security

Greece's primary concern in relation to the Albanian question regards her external security. Especially since Albania has sought to develop strong ties with Turkey, Greece's traditional rival in the eastern Mediterranean. Concerned about a potential conflict with the Serbs, as well as the special relationship between Greece and Serbia, Sali Berisha, the Albanian President until 1997, promoted the strengthening of relations with Turkey, which has been very willing to co-operate. Greece has viewed this rapprochement with alarm, because she is afraid of the expansion of the Turkish influence in the Balkans, and the potential formation of an "Islamic Arc" (Albania - Bosnia - Turkey) which would run through her borders.

Nevertheless, it is worth focusing on the perceived threat to internal Greek security posed by Albanian migrants. Greece has been affected by the flourishing of organised crime (drugs and arms trafficking) in neighbouring Albania. Drug trafficking in particular has developed at an alarming rate in the last ten years across the entire region of Russia, Central Asia, the Caucasus and the Balkans. Largely as a result of poverty, porous internal and external borders, the collapse of confidence in many of state institutions and civil strife.[10] In this unofficial economic sector, collaboration between Greeks and Albanians has been perfected, as an Albanian "middleman" reveals:

The Greek and Albanian mafias have already created the so-called "Brotherhood," which is responsible for all the mafia business. [...] we have divided Athens in cantons. The cantons are responsible for the trafficking, not the import, of drugs in different regions of Athens.[11]

If that was not enough of a problem, an estimated 700,000 firearms were stolen from army depots during the riots in 1997, and only some 100,000 had been returned by October 1998.[12] Many of these guns have been redistributed via the Greek illegal arms market and Greeks have even been reportedly approached in the street, and asked whether they wanted to buy a gun.

Furthermore, these population movements and the high demand for Greek visas has led to the development of rackets involving fake visas and passports and the illegal selling of stolen visas and passports. In this field too, Greek-Albanian co-operation has become highly advanced. Greek officials in Albania and in the border customs have been illegally trading visas - fake or genuine - in co-operation with Albanian middlemen. In May 1993, the going rate for an illegal visa obtained through Greek officials in Tirana was roughly USD 300 to 350.[13]

Earlier this year, in two separate incidents, Albanians hijacked Greek buses. Actions that prompted the Greek Prime Minister, Kostas Simitis, to deal with the problem of criminality of foreigners and calm public opinion. The first of these incidents occurred on 29 May 1999, when an Albanian man brandishing a Kalashnikov and a hand grenade hijacked a Greek inter-city bus. The man took the passengers and the driver hostage and drove the bus. to Albania, where he and a passenger were killed when the Albanian police stormed the bus[14] A month later another Albanian tried to hijack a bus but was thwarted by the Greek police.[15]

In the aftermath of these incidents, Simitis underlined the government's determination to combat crime and linked this issue with the intention to form a concrete policy on illegal immigration. Though he did stress that immigrants were not solely responsible for the recent rise in crime. Nevertheless, its timing and the linking of these two issues implied that they are closely connected in the minds of the Government.

Collaboration between the Greek-Albanian police only seriously started in summer 1999, after the hijackings. When the Chief of Greek Secret Police Pavlos Apostolidis and the Albanian Minister of Public Order Spartak Poci, met face to face to discuss these crimes, terrorism, criminal acts, interstate consequences and the mutual exchange of information.

Feelings among the Greek population

Greek feelings towards the Albanian immigrants are overwhelming negative. Of all the migrants in Greece, Bulgarians, Romanians, Poles, Kurds, Africans, Pakistanis, etc, the Albanians are the least appreciated. The sad truth is that racism and fear against the "Balkan other," personified by the economically devastated and desperate Albanian immigrant, is an everyday reality for the Greek population. Even for people who before 1991 were not dominated by racist and xenophobic feelings. These Greek insecurities cover a wide spectrum, from fears that Albanians might break into houses, stealing and killing, to threats against the cultural and blood "purity" of the Greek population, and fears for the potential formation of a minority of ethnic Albanians in Greece.

In the collective social consciousness crime is closely connected with immigrants, particularly those from Albania. Researchers agree that the percentage of crime for which the Albanians are responsible, compared to the rest of the immigrant population in Greece, was only 4.5%, and was thus directly proportional to their numbers and, therefore, not exceptionally high. It is true that the desperate economic situation, unemployment and the life in ghettos inside the Greek cities, are factors that breed crime and segregation among the immigrant population.

There are two myths in relation to this question that need to be dispelled. Firstly, that Albanians are not only culprits, but also victims of criminal activity, because their presence itself has created numerous opportunities for illegal activities (such as prostitution and "protection," trafficking of illegal immigrants, illegal trade or falsification of visas, passports). Secondly, these activities have been conducted by both Albanians and Greeks, and often by the Greek authorities themselves. Nevertheless, immigrants are usually the ones identified as culpable by the police.

Additionally, the hysteria directed against Albanian immigrants has been created and continually revived by the Greek media. Quite often Greek television channels and newspapers have assumed that burglars and thieves were Albanians, without actually having any proof, since the individuals concerned had not been arrested. There have even been cases when Greek citizens have injured or killed Albanians on the spot for stealing and have escaped the legal consequences, feeling justified in taking the law into their own hands and encouraging others to imitate them. Moreover, Albanians have reportedly been beaten up because of their nationality and even Greeks have been attacked for looking like Albanians. Nevertheless, no major racist activist organisations exist in Greece, such as those, which exist in Germany and France. Finally, criminal stereotypes against the Albanians have been used by certain Greek politicians for party or personal political interests, and the Greek police force has often supported the theory that the rise in crime is due to illegal migration, to cover its lack of preventive policy.[16]

Greek pressure on Tirana

Using tried and tested "carrot and stick" methods these Albanian immigrants have often been used by the Greek State as a means of pressurising Albania, during the period 1991-1999. Not least by the granting of additional visas and work permits to Albanian immigrants. Greek pressure has been successful because Greece is particularly important for the Albanian economy - and her security - by being a host for Albanian workers.

Among the "stick" measures used by Greece are massive deportations of mainly - but not exclusively - illegal immigrants, promises for the legalisation of illegal Albanian workers. The usual practice during these operations is that the police storm certain areas where Albanians work and hang around, arrest them and later transport them to the Greek-Albanian border where they are let free. Such procedures are referred to under the heading of "Operation Broom." Often workers with the all the correct documents are arrested as well and documents and passports, which are suspected - but not always confirmed - to be fake are torn up by the police officers. Moreover, Albanian immigrants do not have the time to collect their personal belongings and savings before being expelled. Massive deportations of Albanian workers were carried out in December 1991, June 1993, Autumn 1994, August 1996 and July 1999 and have usually caused tension or a further deterioration in Greek-Albanian relations. We will mainly focus on three cases where the reasons for carrying out these operations were obviously to put pressure on Albania regarding bilateral issues.

On the 25 June 1993, the "Archimandrite Crisis" errupted. Chrysostomos Maidonis, a priest that Archbishop Anastasios Yannoulatos of the Albanian Orthodox Church had invited to preach in Gjirokaster, was expelled from Albania, because he was accused of stirring up the Greek minority and supporting the annexation of Southern Albania to Greece. Soon after the Greek Prime Minister Constantinos Mitsotakis started massive deportations of illegal Albanian immigrants as a retaliatory measure. Consequently Albanian President Sali Berisha complained to the UN. The situation deteriorated further when demonstrations were held outside the Albanian embassy in Athens, Albania recalled her ambassador and cancelled three official visits–by the Greek Foreign, Defence and Finance Ministers. The pressure's main aim concerned the situation of the Greek minority and the ability of the Greek government to influence the internal affairs of Albania.

In April 1994, an attack on a military post near Gjirokaster and deaths of two Albanian soldiers - allegedly by Greek military - became the reason of a massive repatriation of Albanian immigrants working in Greece later the same year. MAVI, a Greek terrorist group dedicated to changing the Greek-Albanian border through provocative actions later claimed responsibility for the attack.[17] Tirana and Athens expelled diplomats and five leaders of Political, Social and Cultural Association of the Greek National Minority in Albania (OMONOIA) who were considered to have been involved in the incident were arrested.[18] In August of the same year, "The Five" were tried and convicted of espionage and illegal arms possession.

This resulted in the expulsion of more than 100,000 Albanians from Greece in Autumn 1994 and the suspension of USD 43 million of EU macroeconomic aid to Albania until November 1994. Finally, in February 1995, Albania's Supreme Court decided to release the four remaining ethnic Greek leaders of OMONOIA on probation and Greek-Albanian relations improved.

In the most recent case, in July 1999, the police launched a sweep operation in the northern Greek town of Florina near the Greek-Albanian border during the second hijack of a Greek inter-city bus (see above). The police claimed the operation was a precautionary measure in case the hijacker had accomplices in Florina, following his insistence that the bus passed through the town.[19] Nevertheless, the repatriation of the Albanian immigrant population of Florina seems a disproportionately harsh measure in relation to the allegation of the existence of accomplices. Serious doubts arose about whether that was the real reason or simply a pretext to get rid of the immigrants and satisfy outraged public opinion. The deportations could have also been used to demonstrate to Tirana that Greece is willing to use hard policy measures unless they take positive action to stop the criminal activity of their citizens on Greek territory.

Consequences on Greek-Albanian relations

Albanian immigrants in Greece have undoubtedly often been involved in criminal activity. Nevertheless, the media and sometimes politicians have exaggerated these incidents in order to create stereotypes suggesting that immigrants are mainly responsible for crime and unemployment in Greece. Such stereotypes have prepared the ground in the Greek collective social conscience to justify the unfair and cruel treatment of economic migrants by the police and the state. The "Broom" operations and harsh police measures appealed to the public and served a double aim. Apart from putting pressure on the Albanian government, they filled the gap created by the lack of a concrete policy about migration and criminality that would have stopped illegal migration and would have solved problems of corruption connected with falsification of visas and other criminal activities. Retaliatory measures against the Albanian immigrants were accepted and morally justified by the majority of the Greek population since, "all Albanians are criminals" and "it was high time the country was purged."

Such policies have continuously caused friction in Greek-Albanian relations. Albanian governments have already complained to international organisations, and Greece's record on human rights has been seriously harmed. Besides, Greece is still considered an enemy in the Albanian collective conscience, as Hohxa, the former Communist dictator, had cultivated the idea that the country is surrounded by hostile powers ready to dismember her.

Consequently, in the period 1990-99 Greece has not managed to dispel the traditional suspicion of the Albanian population or to portray herself as a regional superpower friendly to Albania.

Stereotypes of criminality, underdevelopment and vulgarity about Albanians have harmed Greek-Albanian relations in another way. A general impression has been formed among the Greek population that the Albanian population, as a whole, is worthless, corrupted and mischievous, and thus should not be trusted or even helped. It is increasingly difficult for the Greek government to persuade the people that Albania is friendly when such ideas flourish.

As far as Albania is concerned, there has been no attempt to hold back the increasing number of immigrants coming illegally, nor any bilateral co-operation I on this issue and the continuing rise in crime. Recently attempts have been made to resolve the common problems caused by the Albanian immigrants and the Greek minority by increasing dialogue between the two countries which in itself is a good thing and will hopefully bring the two countries closer. However, there have been frequent differences of opinion, and adequate solutions have yet to be found.

[Incal]

What does this mean to you? (thats the same point i was making)
If they are illegal = no work number = can't work = doing criminal activities


So you are excusing illegal immigrants by saying this? Sounds like extortion: "Give papers to everybody or else". Just so you know, an illegal has already broken the law since the first moment he set a foot in another country cause he didn't comply with that country's regulation so the solution is obvious: Deport that person ASAP.

[Queen B]

As for the crime if they are illegal they have no work number which means they cant work, therefore having to find other means of recieveing money and therefore become criminals. Capish now?
I understood what you said, but my comment was because you said that:
''The tax problem is your fault, they can't pay taxes without citizenship. Crime rate obviously tends to be high with the Greek crisis transpiring, the immigrants are the ones that are most effected.''


And like i previously said, crime rate probably increased because of the Greek economic crisis. You stated it was always "high" yet you failed to provide proof of this.
Crime rate was ALREADY high before the crisis
You want proof? Look proof
(Its a forum commenting on the date of the ministry, but the ministry page got changed, so the link is not working)
http://www.phorum.gr/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=116203&start=15

Examples:
Murders in 1991
Greeks: 204 immigrants : 25
Murders in 2007
Greeks: 195 immigrants : 103

Rapes in 1991:
Greeks: 16 immigrants : 6
Rapes in 2007 :
Greeks : 24 immgrants : 29

_ Edit_ I found I was looking for, in a page.

(but in Greek)

You can even use google translate, or I can translate to you.
Table 1 : homicides
table 2: Rapes
table 3: robbery
4: illegal arm owners
5 : smuggling
6: frauds
7: burglaries
8: forgery
9: beggary
10 : Copyright stuff

Columns:
1 = year , 2 = Greeks , 3 = rate change (from previous year) 4= immigrants, 5 = rate change, 5 = Immigrants / Greeks rate
http://www.e-grammes.gr/article.php?id=1710

Notes:
*Greeks are 11 millions and immigrants are 1,5 - 2 millions.
*Greeks include anyone holding Greek citizenship including Roma
*smuggling (illegals f.e) also means that the non-Greek might be a non-resident,too, like Turks smuggling illegals.


http://www.ce-review.org/99/21/vidali21.html
This article from 1999 seems to be fair and well balanced from both sides.
Its a little old, but until that time, was kind of true.
Greece decided to open the borders, as you know.
The reason was that Greece wanted to help, because, almost every Greek family have an immigrant in US,Australia,Canada,Germany from the 50s, or the 70s.(I have in Canada from my mother's side, and in Australia from my father's side)
The first influx, was a very positive one, mostly families migrated, worked in houses, everywhere, and integrated very well in Greece.
Right after that, there was a 2nd influx, mostly illegals, that escaped from prisons,etc.
Those got accepted as well, but in result, they did criminal activities, and betray the trust of those who welcomed them.
With that, Greeks weren't open to Albanians anymore, and the new Albanian immigrants were pre-occupied that they'll face negative behavior.

So you are excusing illegal immigrants by saying this? Sounds like extortion: "Give papers to everybody or else". Just so you know, an illegal has already broken the law since the first moment he set a foot in another country cause he didn't comply with that country's regulation so the solution is obvious: Deport that person ASAP.
There is no excuse for doing criminal activities.
They simply can get the fuck out of here. Especially Albanians that are NEXT door, not like Pakistanis or Afghans (not that they shouldn't also GTFO if they are illegal).
There is no excuse.
If they want to stay here, stay civil or bring their papers.

[alb0zfinest]

I understood what you said, but my comment was because you said that:
''The tax problem is your fault, they can't pay taxes without citizenship. Crime rate obviously tends to be high with the Greek crisis transpiring, the immigrants are the ones that are most effected.''

Crime rate was ALREADY high before the crisis
You want proof? Look proof
(Its a forum commenting on the date of the ministry, but the ministry page got changed, so the link is not working)
http://www.phorum.gr/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=116203&start=15

Examples:
Murders in 1991
Greeks: 204 immigrants : 25
Murders in 2007
Greeks: 195 immigrants : 103

Rapes in 1991:
Greeks: 16 immigrants : 6
Rapes in 2007 :
Greeks : 24 immgrants : 29

_ Edit_ I found I was looking for, in a page.

(but in Greek)

You can even use google translate, or I can translate to you.
Table 1 : homicides
table 2: Rapes
table 3: robbery
4: illegal arm owners
5 : smuggling
6: frauds
7: burglaries
8: forgery
9: beggary
10 : Copyright stuff

Columns:
1 = year , 2 = Greeks , 3 = rate change (from previous year) 4= immigrants, 5 = rate change, 5 = Immigrants / Greeks rate
http://www.e-grammes.gr/article.php?id=1710

Notes:
*Greeks are 11 millions and immigrants are 1,5 - 2 millions.
*Greeks include anyone holding Greek citizenship including Roma
*smuggling (illegals f.e) also means that the non-Greek might be a non-resident,too, like Turks smuggling illegals.


Its a little old, but until that time, was kind of true.
Greece decided to open the borders, as you know.
The reason was that Greece wanted to help, because, almost every Greek family have an immigrant in US,Australia,Canada,Germany from the 50s, or the 70s.(I have in Canada from my mother's side, and in Australia from my father's side)
The first influx, was a very positive one, mostly families migrated, worked in houses, everywhere, and integrated very well in Greece.
Right after that, there was a 2nd influx, mostly illegals, that escaped from prisons,etc.
Those got accepted as well, but in result, they did criminal activities, and betray the trust of those who welcomed them.
With that, Greeks weren't open to Albanians anymore, and the new Albanian immigrants were pre-occupied that they'll face negative behavior.

There is no excuse for doing criminal activities.
They simply can get the fuck out of here. Especially Albanians that are NEXT door, not like Pakistanis or Afghans (not that they shouldn't also GTFO if they are illegal).
There is no excuse.
If they want to stay here, stay civil or bring their papers.

I said
If they are illegal = no work number = can't work = doing criminal activities.
Whats the issue with that? I also said if they are illegal they cant pay taxes.
As for the crime "always" being high as it is now, thanks for providing a broken link with no evidence :rolleyes2:

[alb0zfinest]

So you are excusing illegal immigrants by saying this? Sounds like extortion: "Give papers to everybody or else". Just so you know, an illegal has already broken the law since the first moment he set a foot in another country cause he didn't comply with that country's regulation so the solution is obvious: Deport that person ASAP.

No im not requesting or demanding anything. Its their country they can grant or not grant an illegal Albanian citizenship. My point is when it comes to taxes they shouldn't complain, considering that illegal immigrants are not even allowed to do their taxes. so how in the hell should they pay for them?

[Queen B]

I said
As for the crime "always" being high as it is now, thanks for providing a broken link with no evidence :rolleyes2:
In the forum, it was chatted in 2008, with a link straight from the ministry.
Also, the 2005 site, also uses data from the ministry.
Every table was even linked to the specific post in the ministry site.In the 2005. Yes.

These ARE evidence, since those are publish based on those data.

Ηοwever, since someone that don't want to believe, won't anyaway, here is a ''right'' parliament member issued the question in parliament, and got the following .doc
Ask me anything to translate if you want.

http://www.thanos-plevris.gr/eperotiseis/egklimatikotita.html


No im not requesting or demanding anything. Its their country they can grant or not grant an illegal Albanian citizenship.
Citizenship? Where do you live?
How the fuck can someone give citizenship to someone that you can't even know a name or make sure of his identification ? :lol:
When you have no papers / you can't identify the person.
If he is a criminal or not. If he is who he says he is or not , etc.
The only immigrant that can be granted a citizenship is a legal one, through neutralization


My point is when it comes to taxes they shouldn't complain, considering that illegal immigrants are not even allowed to do their taxes. so how in the hell should they pay for them?
Are not ''allowed''. Hey, do you know what illegal means?

[alb0zfinest]

In the forum, it was chatted in 2008, with a link straight from the ministry.
Also, the 2005 site, also uses data from the ministry.
Every table was even linked to the specific post in the ministry site.In the 2005. Yes.

These ARE evidence, since those are publish based on those data.

Ηοwever, since someone that don't want to believe, won't anyaway, here is a ''right'' parliament member issued the question in parliament, and got the following .doc
Ask me anything to translate if you want.

http://www.thanos-plevris.gr/eperotiseis/egklimatikotita.html


Citizenship? Where do you live?
How the fuck can someone give citizenship to someone that you can't even know a name or make sure of his identification ? :lol:
When you have no papers / you can't identify the person.
If he is a criminal or not. If he is who he says he is or not , etc.
The only immigrant that can be granted a citizenship is a legal one, through neutralization

Are not ''allowed''. Hey, do you know what illegal means?

Crime in Greece is "high" depending on what you consider high crime rate and contrasting it with other countries. If you mean with the influx of immigrants crime rates rose higher then what they previously were then that doesnt neccesarly mean that crime rates are high, it just simply means they increased. Greece until 2008 had the lowest crime rates in Europe. Of course because of the economic crisis, those numbers have risen (which was the point i was making before,) yet despite this Greece remains to have one of the lowest crime rates in Western Europe (according to wikipedia).

hahahaha don't even know the name of the person?FACEPALM! of course when they deport the person they know his name just fine,
First off how can you pay taxes if you are illegal and don't work since you have no working number (the least), and if the person is illegal but he does work illegally he still can't do taxes because again he is illegal.
How manly of you

[Queen B]

Crime in Greece is "high" depending on what you consider high crime rate and contrasting it with other countries. If you mean with the influx of immigrants crime rates rose higher then what they previously were then that doesnt neccesarly mean that crime rates are high, it just simply means they increased. Greece until 2008 had the lowest crime rates in Europe. Of course because of the economic crisis, those numbers have risen (which was the point i was making before,) yet despite this Greece remains to have one of the lowest crime rates in Western Europe (according to wikipedia).

No, I don't mean that. I know already that Greece has one of the lowest crime rates in Europe.
I mean that Greeks are 11 millions, Immigrants are 2 millions, and yet, almost half (depends on the crime, some times more than half, sometimes less than this) of the crimes are caused by immigrants.


hahahaha don't even know the name of the person?FACEPALM! of course when they deport the person they know his name just fine,
Facepalm?
I guess you don't know what illegal means and how someone can be considered ''illegal''
1) By having a non-authorised or expired visa (you can get working-visa, student-visa, travel-visa)
2) By having no identification papers at all (very common among Pakistani/Africans/Indians/Asians/etc)
3) By having falsified/wrong documents

In the case 2) you simply can't deport the person. He/she can claim being a refugee, and ask asylum, and is granted, at least ''asylum'' status, even if he has no documentation at all.



First off how can you pay taxes if you are illegal and don't work since you have no working number (the least),

You don't pay taxes if you are illegal. Its impossible.

1) If he is illegal, happens something of the above 3.
a) Non authorised visa, means non-working permit. If you have non-working permit, you can't get a tax number
b) Self-explenatory
c) Self-explenatory again


How manly of you
:confused:

[brunette]

Because your immigrants didn't and doesn't wanna stay in Greece at first place. They wanna go to western Europe but due to the agreements between Greece and EU, western European states are abusing you as some kind of dumping ground for illegal immigrants because supposedly they entered EU from Greece.

This is your country`s one of the few uses for EU`s big guns, just as they are using Romania and Bulgaria for dumping gypsies. They are abusing Greece and imho, you should abandon those agreements and let immigrants go where they wanna go and don't accept them back again. If western Europeans doesn't want them in their country, then they should deport them to their home country, not to the Greece. I have no idea how come you do that tough because you are completely hostage to them, a colony of Brussels.

EU wanted to trick Turkey childishly by saying that Turkey is the so-called EU candidate and supposedly, we should accept illegal immigrants from Greece because they used Turkish sea and soil while going to EU. Ofc we are not idiots and we didn't accept that stupid offer.

Any European countries that enters the EU it's like Roma Caput.

[brunette]

The tax problem is your fault, they can't pay taxes without citizenship. Crime rate obviously tends to be high with the Greek crisis transpiring, the immigrants are the ones that are most effected.

The problem was Germany borrowing money off Greece since WW2 and now Greece is having a crisis they want their money back and the German goverment is charging them 15 percent. My take on all this is that don't loan some Jew controlled Western country money in the first place.

Germany can't even start a decent National Socialist movement without Jews let alone have their own money.

[brunette]

@Alb0zfinest don't get too excited that wasn't an insult directed towards Greek people. None of this is their fault it's the Jews' fault.

[brunette]

Infact it's not even the Germans peoples' fault it's the German goverment.

[Romanion]

No im not requesting or demanding anything. Its their country they can grant or not grant an illegal Albanian citizenship. My point is when it comes to taxes they shouldn't complain, considering that illegal immigrants are not even allowed to do their taxes. so how in the hell should they pay for them?

They are not allowed because they are illegal and should be deported so the jobs can be given to Greeks with citizenship. Because Albania is a shithole doesn't mean Greece has to pick up its slack.

[alb0zfinest]

@Alb0zfinest don't get too excited that wasn't an insult directed towards Greek people. None of this is their fault it's the Jews' fault.

hahahahah don't worry im far from that. I don't really find the greek crisis amusing, because i know Albanians in Greece are immensley affected by this and even the Albanians of Albania, with Greece being Albanias main trading partner. I just thanked your post because i understood a point from your comment that if you know you wont be able to pay the loans don't keep on taking loans its just simply ilogical. However i do disagree that its the jews fault, the Greeks are responsible for their own country, so they should take the responsibility
It's stupid for them to ask for their money back, If that happens the U.S should ask for their money they gave to Greece under the marshal plan

[alb0zfinest]

They are not allowed because they are illegal and should be deported so the jobs can be given to Greeks with citizenship. Because Albania is a shithole doesn't mean Greece has to pick up its slack.

So why would you count them responsible for taxes when their illegal just makes no sense.
As dandelion states most of the illegals have to do with the black market(supposibly)
so you want the jobs in the black market given to Greece :rolleyes2:

[Romanion]

So why would you count them responsible for taxes when their illegal just makes no sense.
As dandelion states most of the illegals have to do with the black market(supposibly)
so you want the jobs in the black market given to Greece :rolleyes2:

We should have no black market and everything this should be accounted for. Greece is not Albania and its social shithole with gangs and mafia ruling the economy. Illegals should be deported as they are a burden not a asset.

[alb0zfinest]

Infact it's not even the Germans peoples' fault it's the German goverment.

Isinit the people who choose their representatives to represent them in government, so its their fault for choosing those people.
Even if the germans were to pay their debt to Greece it would not suffice, Greece owns way more then what the Germans owe to them. Not even mentioning howmany times they bailed Greece out.

[Queen B]

It's stupid for them to ask for their money back, If that happens the U.S should ask for their money they gave to Greece under the marshal plan
Tottaly different things to mention, fyi

[alb0zfinest]

We should have no black market and everything this should be accounted for. Greece is not Albania and its social shithole with gangs and mafia ruling the economy. Illegals should be deported as they are a burden not a asset.

hahahah so are you taking the black market jobs or not? you just like to complain for bs stuff.
Of course Albania is going to be behind they've been developing for 14 years. When The U.S gave your piece of shit country money under the marshal plan and Truman Doctrine we faced a harsh communist regime. Not mentioning that if Greece didnt join the E.U in 1952 they wouldn't be far off from Albania.

[alb0zfinest]

Tottaly different things to mention, fyi

Not really, Greece still hasnt returned its debt to the U.S. Same supposibly with Germany even though if Germany pays its debt to Greece it wont cover what Greece owns. But Greeks want more then just to give them back the money they owe, they want the Germans to pay their debt completely. Again despite bailing Greece out several times

[Thunor]

Why is an Albanian immigrant to the US lecturing someone who is in her own native country?

[Queen B]

hahahah so are you taking the black market jobs or not? you just like to complain for bs stuff.
Of course Albania is going to be behind they've been developing for 14 years. When The U.S gave your piece of shit country money under the marshal plan we faced a harsh communist regime. Not mentioning that if Greece didnt join the E.U in 1952 they wouldn't be far off from Albania.
What the hell are you talking about. Have you any idea of what you say or not?
Greece entered NATO in 1952. A bit after Greece's civil war. From 67-74 we had Junta, and we entered EU, not in 1952, but in 1981 (issued in 75, but had to make the necessary reforms in order to enter , in 1981)
Unlike what you think, Greece's economic downfall, started AFTER entering EU.



Not really, Greece still hasnt returned its debt to the U.S. Same supposibly with Germany even though if Germany pays its debt to Greece it wont cover what Greece owns. But Greeks want more then just to give them back the money they owe, they want the Germans to pay their debt completely. Again despite bailing Greece out several times
Yes, really actually.
1) Marshal plan was a plan based on aid, and not loans.
2) Marshal plan was between US and European countries INCLUDING Germany, and what Greece is asking is between Germany and Greece.
3) Germany forcibly took LOANS in the name of Greek state.
4) So far, Greece is getting LOANS , with very high interest, and so far the loans are paid back (by bigger loans). So, so far, Germany is not loosing, but winning actually, not only by the interest it gains, but with many other things like
a) rediculous deals for taking advantage of Greek solar energy
b) Selling second hand military equipent to Greece
c) Being involved in Siemens Scandal, a scandal that is in a great length part of the Greek crisis, and getting away with it...
etc...
etc...
etc...

[Queen B]

Why is an Albanian immigrant to the US lecturing someone who is in her own native country?

He is not lecturing, because he simply has no idea about what he is talking about.

[dralos]

Why is an Albanian immigrant to the US lecturing someone who is in her own native country?
same as you lecture other europeans,while you aint in europe and he isnt an immigrant bcs america is for all europeans it's not just one ethnicity:thumb001:

[Thunor]

same as you lecture other europeans,while you aint in europe and he isnt an immigrant bcs america is for all europeans it's not just one ethnicity:thumb001:
I belong to one of the ethnic groups that founded the US as we know it. As a German-American, I'm fully entitled to call myself an old-stock American and a native of this country. He's not.

Also, you're a migrant yourself.

[alb0zfinest]

What the hell are you talking about. Have you any idea of what you say or not?
Greece entered NATO in 1952. A bit after Greece's civil war. From 67-74 we had Junta, and we entered EU, not in 1952, but in 1981 (issued in 75, but had to make the necessary reforms in order to enter , in 1981)
Unlike what you think, Greece's economic downfall, started AFTER entering EU.



Yes, really actually.
1) Marshal plan was a plan based on aid, and not loans.
2) Marshal plan was between US and European countries INCLUDING Germany, and what Greece is asking is between Germany and Greece.
3) Germany forcibly took LOANS in the name of Greek state.
4) So far, Greece is getting LOANS , with very high interest, and so far the loans are paid back (by bigger loans). So, so far, Germany is not loosing, but winning actually, not only by the interest it gains, but with many other things like
a) rediculous deals for taking advantage of Greek solar energy
b) Selling second hand military equipent to Greece
c) Being involved in Siemens Scandal, a scandal that is in a great length part of the Greek crisis, and getting away with it...
etc...
etc...
etc...

The E.U Accession of Greece was 1981, i apologize i mixed Nato accession and E.U Accession
1)However for the marshal plan alot of it was loans as well (according to wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan
2)Yes i know but we were speaking about returning what the countries owed, thats why i mentioned the marshal plan.
3)Do you have evidence for this?
4)I never mentioned whos better off now or whos "winning" as you say, but if you want to comment on that ok.
And again Greece has control of its own country, they don't have to buy more things off of Germany by more loans. Or do the obvious cutt back on something, they are obviously in a crisis and they still keep on spending like they don't owe anything

[alb0zfinest]

He is not lecturing, because he simply has no idea about what he is talking about.

If thats what you like to think

[alb0zfinest]

No, I don't mean that. I know already that Greece has one of the lowest crime rates in Europe.
I mean that Greeks are 11 millions, Immigrants are 2 millions, and yet, almost half (depends on the crime, some times more than half, sometimes less than this) of the crimes are caused by immigrants.

Facepalm?
I guess you don't know what illegal means and how someone can be considered ''illegal''
1) By having a non-authorised or expired visa (you can get working-visa, student-visa, travel-visa)
2) By having no identification papers at all (very common among Pakistani/Africans/Indians/Asians/etc)
3) By having falsified/wrong documents

In the case 2) you simply can't deport the person. He/she can claim being a refugee, and ask asylum, and is granted, at least ''asylum'' status, even if he has no documentation at all.


You don't pay taxes if you are illegal. Its impossible.

1) If he is illegal, happens something of the above 3.
a) Non authorised visa, means non-working permit. If you have non-working permit, you can't get a tax number
b) Self-explenatory
c) Self-explenatory again

:confused:

Again, you were saying that crime rate in Greece has always been high, i said they got higher after the infulx of immigrants but they werent high.
No your right you have to tell me the definition :rolleyes2:
Point is you said they can't identify the person, to cross the border they need some cind of identification, now whether a flase identification is given thats up to the greek authorities to take care of it, or simply reject them.
"You don't pay taxes if you are illegal. Its impossible."
I mentioned this before several times, you obviously haven't payed attention to what i've been saying.

[Queen B]

The E.U Accession of Greece was 1981, i apologize i mixed Nato accession and E.U Accession
Okay;)


1)However for the marshal plan alot of it was loans as well (according to wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan#Loans_and_Grants


2)Yes i know but we were speaking about returning what the countries owed, thats why i mentioned the marshal plan.
We are talking about Greece and Germany, not about Ireland or whichever other country took loans.


3)Do you have evidence for this?
March 14, 1942. Bank of Greece - loan of 76 million Reichsmarks
http://content-mcdn.feed.gr/filesystem/images/20110407/low/assets_LARGE_t_420_52159585.JPG
http://content-aka.feed.gr/filesystem/images/20100130/low/assets_LARGE_t_420_8271413.JPG
A 2000 article
http://www.greekembassy.org/embassy/content/en/Article.aspx?office=2&folder=289&article=4885
(and two interesting articles but in Greek
http://www.karidakis.com/?p=445
http://arisdeslis.blogspot.com/2011_08_01_archive.html )


4)I never mentioned whos better off now or whos "winning" as you say, but if you want to comment on that ok.
And again Greece has control of its own country, they don't have to buy more things off of Germany by more loans. Or do the obvious cutt back on something, they are obviously in a crisis and they still keep on spending like they don't owe anything
It's not about winning or losing.
It's about bitching about the ''poor'' Germany, that does something so ''costly'' to them, by helping Greeks with LOANS, with HIGH interests (in slang is also known as loansharks)

[Queen B]

Again, you were saying that crime rate in Greece has always been high, i said they got higher after the infulx of immigrants but they werent high.
No your right you have to tell me the definition :rolleyes2:
Read my first post
''We don't benefit though..
You know why?Many , if not most, of them are illegal --> no taxes payed
Also, the criminality have risen, and 2/3 of crimes are commited by immigrants, who are 2 millions, while Greeks are 11''
I was saying τhis since the start.That criminality have risen, and that the rate of immigrants/Greeks crimes, is very high.

My comment, if you are reffering to that, which was afterwards, ''No, crime rate was high already, way before the crisis (from the late 90s, to the start of 2000s, till now). '' was about that crisis wasn't the fact that affected criminality, but the influx of illegals. (that's why I mentioned the dates).

And yes, for me, that have lived in Greece all my life, the amount of criminality that exists now, is high, even though is nothing compared f.e. to US or most of other countries.

I want to be able to buy tote bags again, and not bags with zipper ONLY, I want to be able to just leave my bicycle out of the super-market for 5 minutes, and return and find it there untouched, I want to have my windows open so the house gets fresh air, without being afraid someone will enter.
(yes, all those 3 have happened to me already)

I could do this 15 years ago. I can't now.



Point is you said they can't identify the person, to cross the border they need some cind of identification, now whether a flase identification is given thats up to the greek authorities to take care of it, or simply reject them.
Do you believe that they just enter the border, through customs and police?
Most of Africans/Asians are coming through illegal boats, almost about to die from famine.
And even non-African/asians, enter through unguarded places, with no identifications.


"You don't pay taxes if you are illegal. Its impossible."
I mentioned this before several times, you obviously haven't payed attention to what i've been saying.
I am paying attention, that's why I answer you.

[alb0zfinest]

[QUOTE=dandelion;869748]Okay;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan#Loans_and_Grants

The total amount spent on loans was $1.2billion. The amount given to Ireland alone does not equate to that.
This (http://cup.columbia.edu/media/5022/hubbard-aid-excerpt.pdf ) tells the plan for the marshal plan presented towards Greece, and it clearly states that the U.S gave loans to Greece. Again im not denying that a large sum of it was aid, but then there is also a large portion that was loan.

We are talking about Greece and Germany, not about Ireland or whichever other country took loans.

Covered above

March 14, 1942. Bank of Greece - loan of 76 million Reichsmarks
http://content-mcdn.feed.gr/filesystem/images/20110407/low/assets_LARGE_t_420_52159585.JPG
http://content-aka.feed.gr/filesystem/images/20100130/low/assets_LARGE_t_420_8271413.JPG
A 2000 article
http://www.greekembassy.org/embassy/content/en/Article.aspx?office=2&folder=289&article=4885
(and two interesting articles but in Greek
http://www.karidakis.com/?p=445
http://arisdeslis.blogspot.com/2011_08_01_archive.html )

The source is pretty biased, its from the Athens news agency. But nonetheless that source says "beginning with the repayment of a forced war "loan" exacted by the Nazi occupation forces during WWII" one loan not many.

It's not about winning or losing.
It's about bitching about the ''poor'' Germany, that does something so ''costly'' to them, by helping Greeks with LOANS, with HIGH interests (in slang is also known as loansharks

I know i simply said it was irrelevant what you said
"Germany is not loosing, but winning actually"
by saying "I never mentioned whos better off now or whos "winning" as you say, but if you want to comment on that ok"
And as your quote states
"""""The Areios Paghos (Greek Supreme Court) ruled on April 13 that Germany must pay compensation to Greek victims of Nazi oppression, upholding a 1997 decision by a court in the city of Livadia to award 9.45 billion drachmas (about 35 million dollars) compensation to relatives of persons killed in the Distomo massacre by German troops in World War II.

The ruling, which recognizes the competence of Greek courts to order Germany to pay compensation to victims of Nazi oppression, will allow individuals to file claims against Germany.

But Germany has refused to entertain the possibility of more compensation payments, saying that no private citizen can sue a state and that Germany has already paid blanket compensation under postwar reparations to Greece.

In 1960, Germany paid a total of 115 million German marks to Greek victims of Nazi racial discrimination""""""
How could the Germans pay their debt when it is not known howmuch they owe. These debts to be paid is simply individuals coming forward to claim that o he abused me therefore i get this much compensation. How is the right price determined, and how do you know that some wont falsify abuse or that one of their family members got killed etc etc just to get money?

[Romanion]

hahahah so are you taking the black market jobs or not? you just like to complain for bs stuff.
Of course Albania is going to be behind they've been developing for 14 years. When The U.S gave your piece of shit country money under the marshal plan and Truman Doctrine we faced a harsh communist regime. Not mentioning that if Greece didnt join the E.U in 1952 they wouldn't be far off from Albania.

In 50 years albania will still be a backwards shithole. Tribal mountain mentality doesn't make for a progressive state. And here we have alot of alboz from everywhere possible but albania on this forum trying to defend Albania. I guess this is why you guys are so nationalistic, you have nothing else to be happy about.

[iNird]

Its a little old, but until that time, was kind of true.
Greece decided to open the borders, as you know.
The reason was that Greece wanted to help, because, almost every Greek family have an immigrant in US,Australia,Canada,Germany from the 50s, or the 70s.(I have in Canada from my mother's side, and in Australia from my father's side)
The first influx, was a very positive one, mostly families migrated, worked in houses, everywhere, and integrated very well in Greece.
Right after that, there was a 2nd influx, mostly illegals, that escaped from prisons,etc.
Those got accepted as well, but in result, they did criminal activities, and betray the trust of those who welcomed them.
With that, Greeks weren't open to Albanians anymore, and the new Albanian immigrants were pre-occupied that they'll face negative behavior.

I'm not sure of the intentions of the open borders but most of the statistics point to Albanians being representative in crime statistics (compared to other immigrants.) The author in the article claimed 4.5% and I've read other stats showing something similar. From what I've gathered from Greece crimes are the following:

1) Greece has one of the lowest crime rates in the EU
2) Albanians are representative in crime rate to other immigrant groups. Though immigrants commit crimes at a higher rate than natives.

[alb0zfinest]

In 50 years albania will still be a backwards shithole. Tribal mountain mentality doesn't make for a progressive state. And here we have alot of alboz from everywhere possible but albania on this forum trying to defend Albania. I guess this is why you guys are so nationalistic, you have nothing else to be happy about.

You worry about 16% unemployment rate in Greece which is higher then Albania, and we'll worry about our own country. And of course Albania will be a backwards shithole, even though they managed to join nato before most of their neighbhors, they continue to show economic growth despite their main trading partners (Greece, and Italy) being in an economic crisis. Tourism almost reached 5 million from 2 million the previous year. Quality of life has increased over the years. GDP has show descent increase. Could you say the same about Greece?

[iNird]

In 50 years albania will still be a backwards shithole. Tribal mountain mentality doesn't make for a progressive state. And here we have alot of alboz from everywhere possible but albania on this forum trying to defend Albania. I guess this is why you guys are so nationalistic, you have nothing else to be happy about.

Well this forum advocates European preservation so naturally you will find Albanians on this board that tend to be more nationalistic. The same applies for other ethnic groups on this forum.

And there are many aspects of the "Tribal mountain mentality" that many members of this forum advocate for their own nation/culture.

[Romanion]

You worry about 16% unemployment rate in Greece which is higher then Albania, and we'll worry about our own country. And of course Albania will be a backwards shithole, even though they managed to join nato before most of their neighbhors, they continue to show economic growth despite their main trading partners (Greece, and Italy) being in an economic crisis. Tourism almost reached 5 million from 2 million the previous year. Quality of life has increased over the years. GDP has show descent increase. Could you say the same about Greece?

5 million! that's alot! congrats!

With that large 3.8 thousand GDP per capita of Albania, you almost caught up with Bosnia's 4.2 thousand GDP per capita, and their a nation split in half and almost near civil war again.

http://www.google.ca/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=ny_gdp_mktp_kd_zg&idim=country:ALB&dl=en&hl=en&q=albania+gdp+growth

Keep reading your Illyrian fairytales, it seems to keep you guys opimistic if nothing else.

[Queen B]

The total amount spent on loans was $1.2billion. The amount given to Ireland alone does not equate to that.
This (http://cup.columbia.edu/media/5022/hubbard-aid-excerpt.pdf ) tells the plan for the marshal plan presented towards Greece, and it clearly states that the U.S gave loans to Greece. Again im not denying that a large sum of it was aid, but then there is also a large portion that was loan.

''In Greece the farmer or factory paid the Greek bank in
drachmas, usually in installments as a loan. Instead of paying
the U.S. bank in turn, the Greek bank forwarded the
money to a Greek Treasury counterpart fund. The Greek
government then used 95 percent of those funds for projects
within Greece, as approved by the ECA in the annual
plan. The other 5 percent went to the ECA for administrative
costs.
There were other payment mechanisms too. Greece
could pay with dollars from its own foreign exchange, for
later reimbursement by the ECA; or issue an ECA draft
through the U.S. Federal Reserve in favor of U.S. suppliers;
or ask the ECA to issue a letter of commitment to the
supplier, pledging direct payment without a bank. These
alternative mechanisms were mostly for large shipments
of commodities such as grain, oil, or steel, for very large
Greek businesses.''
...
''Contrast the Marshall Plan’s tight financing formula
with the World Bank’s standard practice. In the Marshall
Plan, businesses repaid loans and advances, and that
money funded government projects directly. In poor countries
today the World Bank staff designs projects for the
government to implement and then calculates how much
that will boost the overall economy. It adds up the projects to arrive at a total projected economic increase and then calculates
the extra taxes the government will collect. It then
gives a huge loan for the government to pay back with the
future taxes from the future economic growth. Five years
later, when the growth has not happened and the government
can’t pay back the loan, the bank rolls it over or aid activists
campaign for the bank to forgive it. Meanwhile, the bank
has designed another set of projects that are already under
way, with another loan the government will never repay.
The Marshall Plan encountered more obstacles in
Greece than in other countries, but still the program
worked. The Greek economy grew 30 percent over the four
years of the plan and then took off in the 1950s, when Greece
grew faster than any other country in the world except for
Japan.''


The source is pretty biased, its from the Athens news agency. But nonetheless that source says "beginning with the repayment of a forced war "loan" exacted by the Nazi occupation forces during WWII" one loan not many.

That happened in Greece,in Greek banks, what source you are expecting? a French or an Australian? The source is not the Greek agency, but the papers I provided you.
Its not something that ''popped up'' with crisis, even the one link from the embassy, is from 2000.

There is no deny from any German on those. That's why even in the memondarum (aka ''Mnimonio'') there an article that says that any owed money, cannot be replaced by the loan money that Greece have to pay, in order to equalize the debt between the two parties.

I wonder why this was mentioned :coffee:


How is the right price determined, and how do you know that some wont falsify abuse or that one of their family members got killed etc etc just to get money?
What Greece asks from Germany, is hardly about abusing/discrimination or even killings.
Its about the war loans, the stealing of Gold and silver, and for destroying Greek economy.
What Marshal plan did, was something that Germany should have done, and what part of Marshal plan was loan, it was something that Germany should have re-paid.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2093990,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jun/21/germany-greece-greek-debt-crisis

[Queen B]

I'm not sure of the intentions of the open borders but most of the statistics point to Albanians being representative in crime statistics (compared to other immigrants.) The author in the article claimed 4.5% and I've read other stats showing something similar. From what I've gathered from Greece crimes are the following:

1) Greece has one of the lowest crime rates in the EU
2) Albanians are representative in crime rate to other immigrant groups. Though immigrants commit crimes at a higher rate than natives.
1) Yes, Greece has one of the lowest crime rates in Europe, and I think the lower withing EU.
Some years ago, had one of the lowest in the world.
2) Look, Albanians are about 60% of immigrants. So, its obvious that a big amount of criminal activities, are coming from them. However, different immigrant groups are dealing with different crimes, mostly. But that's my own spectaculation, based on personal experience, and its not a ''rule''

[Incal]

In 50 years albania will still be a backwards shithole. Tribal mountain mentality doesn't make for a progressive state. And here we have alot of alboz from everywhere possible but albania on this forum trying to defend Albania. I guess this is why you guys are so nationalistic, you have nothing else to be happy about.

LOL now that you mention it... Is there even a single Albo who lives in Albania on this forum?

[dralos]

LOL now that you mention it... Is there even a single Albo who lives in Albania on this forum?
WTF,what about your compatriots in usa,plz dont let me start about them,you infect white americans like coackroaches who ruin your food:D

[Mortimer]

i got a question what kind of ethnicity is the biggest immigrant group?

[Romanion]

i got a question what kind of ethnicity is the biggest immigrant group?

It used to be albanians, they came in hoards after communism failed. Now I think it's south Asians.

[Queen B]

i got a question what kind of ethnicity is the biggest immigrant group?

Around 60% of the immigrants in Greece are Albanians.

[dralos]

albanians are leaving greece now dont worry,in two years probably many albanians will be gone from greece

[dralos]

Around 60% of the immigrants in Greece are Albanians.
are you kidding me,greeks are also big time criminals,beating people up for no reason is also criminal behaviour wich happens alot in greece and many other things,blaming everything on albanians like you are some kind of saints

[Duke]

albanians are leaving greece now dont worry,in two years probably many albanians will be gone from greece

do you know where will the migrate next?

[dralos]

do you know where will the migrate next?
did your albanian boss gave you another break already:D

[Queen B]

albanians are leaving greece now dont worry,in two years probably many albanians will be gone from greece
From 2009 to now, there is no significant amount of Albanians leaving Greece.
I wish it would (:lol:) but they are still here, mainly because most of them are already leaving many years now.
But I wish that what you say will be true :wink

are you kidding me,greeks are also big time criminals,beating people up for no reason is also criminal behaviour wich happens alot in greece and many other things,blaming everything on albanians like you are some kind of saints
See the report I posted.
The report doesn't show zero criminality by Greeks. The report shows that while immigrants are 2 million, and Greeks are 11, almost half of the crimes are made from immigrants.
Its not blaming, its reality.

[Duke]

did your albanian boss gave you another break already:D

I would be offended, if it wasnt so funny, Albanian boss, lol.


My question was serious tho, since you know they are moving out, you must know where.

[Flintlocke]

In Greece (before the crisis) you get a blue collar job for 750 euros/month while in Albania you get a white collar job for 270 euros/month.

[dralos]

I would be offended, if it wasnt so funny, Albanian boss, lol.


My question was serious tho, since you know they are moving out, you must know where.
you know why i said it,you know alboz in croatia are richer then average croat but dont respond to me anymore,for Godsake you should be spending some time with your wife or looking for one instead of barking here:D

[dralos]

From 2009 to now, there is no significant amount of Albanians leaving Greece.
I wish it would (:lol:) but they are still here, mainly because most of them are already leaving many years now.
But I wish that what you say will be true :wink

See the report I posted.
The report doesn't show zero criminality by Greeks. The report shows that while immigrants are 2 million, and Greeks are 11, almost half of the crimes are made from immigrants.
Its not blaming, its reality.
and who made those,let me guess greeks themself:D

[Duke]

you know why i said it,you know alboz in croatia are richer then average croat but dont respond to me anymore,for Godsake you should be spending some time with your wife or looking for one instead of barking here:D

why you dont wont response?
Scared a bit?

That what you said is absolutly very far from truth, most of the šiptars are on same level as gypsies.

And why do you think i am barking, I aksed you a honest question :rolleyes:

[Queen B]

and who made those,let me guess greeks themself:D

No, another country would have access to Greek police data :crazy:

[dralos]

why you dont wont response?
Scared a bit?

That what you said is absolutly very far from truth, most of the šiptars are on same level as gypsies.

And why do you think i am barking, I aksed you a honest question :rolleyes:
they have much more money then you and you know it that's why you're butthurt but i'm breaking my rule so no more silly talks with you,get back to work now:thumb001:

[dralos]

No, another country would have access to Greek police data :crazy:
see so they're biased,you cant expect greeks to honest while they can blame albanians for it

[Duke]

they have much more money then you and you know it that's why you're butthurt but i'm breaking my rule so no more silly talks with you,get back to work now:thumb001:

Do you know to have a serious conversation without backing to trolling backed up by nothing more then your own imagination.

I noticed that trait is common with Šiptars, just as is migrant life.

If you dont wont to answer me, OK, you just need to say so.

[Dilberth]

you know why i said it,you know alboz in croatia are richer then average croat but dont respond to me anymore,for Godsake you should be spending some time with your wife or looking for one instead of barking here:D

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj228/chonig420/rofl.png

[Incal]

WTF,what about your compatriots in usa,plz dont let me start about them,you infect white americans like coackroaches who ruin your food:D

Me? I live in my country, the place I was born and bred. About the peruvians in the US or any other place they can be deported or gassed I don't care. They are scum like most immigrants.



do you know where will the migrate next?

lol



I would be offended, if it wasnt so funny, Albanian boss, lol.

LMAO!

[Queen B]

see so they're biased,you cant expect greeks to honest while they can blame albanians for it
Truth hurts and you say we are biased?
Sorry, they are official statistics. If someone commits a crime and gets caught, his info are recorded.
I didn't know that we have to disort the truth so you will be pleased.

[alb0zfinest]

5 million! that's alot! congrats!

With that large 3.8 thousand GDP per capita of Albania, you almost caught up with Bosnia's 4.2 thousand GDP per capita, and their a nation split in half and almost near civil war again.

http://www.google.ca/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=ny_gdp_mktp_kd_zg&idim=country:ALB&dl=en&hl=en&q=albania+gdp+growth

Keep reading your Illyrian fairytales, it seems to keep you guys opimistic if nothing else.

For a small and undeveloped country thats alot
GDP (PPP) is 8,000 again the country has been developing for 14 years, its gotten pretty far in 14 years, obviously it still has work to do but if it keeps up like this and it does join the e.u, in a few years Albania will become a middle income country.

[Guapo]

Do you know to have a serious conversation without backing to trolling backed up by nothing more then your own imagination.

I noticed that trait is common with Šiptars, just as is migrant life.

If you dont wont to answer me, OK, you just need to say so.

How many Albanians live in Croatia :confused:

[brunette]

hahahahah don't worry im far from that. I don't really find the greek crisis amusing, because i know Albanians in Greece are immensley affected by this and even the Albanians of Albania, with Greece being Albanias main trading partner. I just thanked your post because i understood a point from your comment that if you know you wont be able to pay the loans don't keep on taking loans its just simply ilogical. However i do disagree that its the jews fault, the Greeks are responsible for their own country, so they should take the responsibility
It's stupid for them to ask for their money back, If that happens the U.S should ask for their money they gave to Greece under the marshal plan

Then they should do that too. Why is it stupid to ask for the money back they owe them?

[alb0zfinest]

Then they should do that too. Why is it stupid to ask for the money back they owe them?

They're not even sure the actual amount Germany owes Greece.

[iNird]

Around 60% of the immigrants in Greece are Albanians.

You should feel lucky. Albanians share a similar culture with Greeks and are much easier to integrate into Greek society. Good luck dealing with the Middle Easterners and African immigrants…..

I found this though I'm not sure how accurate it is:

http://noa.al/en/artikull.php?id=169244

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/20741/46/ - I hate using this website lol

So according to this (and I’m not sure how reliable it is) there are 2,224 Albanians in Greek jails, thus, Albanians make up 18% of the total inmates and 30% of the foreign inmates. If we assume there are 500,000 to 1 million Albanians in Greece (4%-9% of the population) and if Albanian are 60% of the foreign population, then it isn't as high as some Greeks make it out to be. Albanians are incarcerated at a higher rate than Greeks but on a lower rate than immigrants on a whole.

[Queen B]

You should feel lucky. Albanians share a similar culture with Greeks and are much easier to integrate into Greek society. Good luck dealing with the Middle Easterners and African immigrants…..

If Albanians were all as the first ones that came , the ''first wave'', yes, I would feel lucky, because all of these are hardworking, respectable, and easy to integrate people.
But unfortunately, not all of them are like this.
My ''favorite'' immigrants are Phillipino.



I found this though I'm not sure how accurate it is:

http://noa.al/en/artikull.php?id=169244

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/20741/46/ - I hate using this website lol
I m nost sure about the numbers, but mostly are for stealing,drugs, trafficing and murders, so this part is correct.


So according to this (and I’m not sure how reliable it is) there are 2,224 Albanians in Greek jails, thus, Albanians make up 18% of the total inmates and 30% of the foreign inmates. If we assume there are 500,000 to 1 million Albanians in Greece (4%-9% of the population) and if Albanian are 60% of the foreign population, then it isn't as high as some Greeks make it out to be.
From an article I have from Jan 2012, there are 12.703 inmates (record number for Greek jails) 57.4 % are immigrants.
(while a new statistic of April of 2012 says foreigners are 65%, but I ll take the January's one so far)

If 57.4 is foreign, then the other 42.6 % of all prisoners are Greeks.
(so 7291 are immigrants and 5411 are Greeks)

But Greeks aren't the same number as immigrants. Greeks are 11 millions, and immigrants are (up to 2 millions).

So, that means that 0.049% of the Greek population is in jail and 0.36% of the immigrant population is in jail, which makes the criminality of immigrants, 7 times more than the local one.

So, we are on that, that immigrants are incarcerated at a higher rate than Greeks.


Albanians are incarcerated at a higher rate than Greeks but on a lower rate than immigrants on a whole.
I dare to say that you can't compare it, but I want your opinion on that as well.
There is a significant amount of inmates, that are in jail for being illegal, so they are kept there to be deported.
If this is ''crime'' , then yes, Albanians have a lower rate than the other immigrants, but if its not, then not.

[Incal]

My ''favorite'' immigrants are Phillipino.

LOL I've heard that from many other people from different countries.

[Queen B]

LOL I've heard that from many other people from different countries.
-They are hardworking, so much that they prefer to work 2-3 works each and sent their kids to private school, and have a high quality of life.
-They are ''crime-less''
-They integrated into Greek society, without losing their culture.

I have only met good phillipinos.

[jerney]

We had some (maybe 7 or 8) Albanian gypsies living below us. A couple of weeks ago they managed to burn down a shed in the common area/yard and almost set our building and the buildings around us on fire. Great people

[Rron]

We had some (maybe 7 or 8) Albanian gypsies living below us. A couple of weeks ago they managed to burn down a shed in the common area/yard and almost set our building and the buildings around us on fire. Great people
You mean gypsies from Albania

[jerney]

You mean gypsies from Albania

Same difference

[Rron]

Same difference
Saying Albanian, Bulgarian or German gypsie is different than saying gypsies from Albania, Greece ,Bulgaria or Germany.

[iNird]

If Albanians were all as the first ones that came , the ''first wave'', yes, I would feel lucky, because all of these are hardworking, respectable, and easy to integrate people.
But unfortunately, not all of them are like this.
My ''favorite'' immigrants are Phillipino.


You have to understand the context of the time. Albania at the time just came out of communism and the people went through a rough transition. Even Albanians from Kosova and Macedonia were shocked when they first entered Albania, there were many reports of being robbed and so forth. We even considered it a dangerous place. Today the story is quite different so I don't think you have to worry as much about the "first wave."


I m nost sure about the numbers, but mostly are for stealing,drugs, trafficing and murders, so this part is correct.


Do you have statistics breaking down crimes by ethnicity?


So, that means that 0.049% of the Greek population is in jail and 0.36% of the immigrant population is in jail, which makes the criminality of immigrants, 7 times more than the local one.

So, we are on that, that immigrants are incarcerated at a higher rate than Greeks.

I know and I alluded to this fact in my other post (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=869866&postcount=52).

But if 2-3k Albanians are incarcerated out of 500,000-1,000,000 then I think it speaks to the point that a small % of Albanians are criminals. The fact that Greece has one of the lowest crime rates in EU and has a large amount of Albanian immigrants further this points IMO.


I dare to say that you can't compare it, but I want your opinion on that as well.
There is a significant amount of inmates, that are in jail for being illegal, so they are kept there to be deported.
If this is ''crime'' , then yes, Albanians have a lower rate than the other immigrants, but if its not, then not.

I'm not sure if these incarceration include deportees (you would know better) but if this is the case, that means the Albanian figure for incarceration, and that of other foreign persons, are inflated because they are not crime related per se. If we were to assume that deportees are counted in the incarceration figure, then we can assume Greek prisoners would be incarcerated for crime related activities only. Thus, it would change the context of these prisoners from the perspective of foreign vs. native born in terms of crime.

[jerney]

Saying Albanian, Bulgarian or German gypsie is different than saying gypsies from Albania, Greece ,Bulgaria or Germany.

Not really, it's just semantics

[Petros Houhoulis]

You should feel lucky. Albanians share a similar culture with Greeks and are much easier to integrate into Greek society. Good luck dealing with the Middle Easterners and African immigrants…..

I found this though I'm not sure how accurate it is:

http://noa.al/en/artikull.php?id=169244

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/20741/46/ - I hate using this website lol

So according to this (and I’m not sure how reliable it is) there are 2,224 Albanians in Greek jails, thus, Albanians make up 18% of the total inmates and 30% of the foreign inmates. If we assume there are 500,000 to 1 million Albanians in Greece (4%-9% of the population) and if Albanian are 60% of the foreign population, then it isn't as high as some Greeks make it out to be. Albanians are incarcerated at a higher rate than Greeks but on a lower rate than immigrants on a whole.

In general:

The problem with the most immigrants is not their crime rate but the intensity of their crimes. Shoplifting is not as serious as murder, and our problem is that the immigrants commit more murders, rapes e.t.c. than the average Greek.

The Albanians are certainly better than many other immigrants, certainly not as good as the Pinoys (and many others from that region like the Indonesians, I have worked with a wide range of different people) but not as bad as many Asians and Africans. Generally speaking they shall NOT be a problem in the long term because they have proven to be not just intergated but assimilated since a long time ago. One could even argue that the original truly Greek people (R1b) were invaders from what is now Albania...