Reconciling differences between Bulgarians and Macedonians and paving coexistence of two peoples

[poiuytrewq0987]

I believe the root of the problem between Bulgarians and Macedonians ultimately lies with Bulgarians wanting to completely assimilate Macedonians into a Bulgarian national identity and our insistence to detach ourselves from everything Bulgarian.

I want to bring up an idea that could possibly enable the coexistence of Bulgarians and Macedonians without replacing one other's identity entirely. For reapproachment to happen I believe Bulgarians need to recognize Macedonians as a separate ethnic group who later got Bulgarized during the medieval period. Whether the Bulgarization was hostile or not I will not debate but I can consider it as friendly adoption since the cultures of Bulgaria and Macedonia are similar to a degree and this couldn't have happened if the relations between Bulgaria and Macedonia were hostile.

From recognizing us as a separate regional people with similar language and culture you will also need to accept our antiquity part of history. Meaning the old Macedonian history and our connection to history thereof. I think it's pretty obvious that with genetic tests we can tell we aren't descended from Russians but rather we are indigenous to the Balkans with sprinklings of Slavs who migrated here.

Bulgarians are also obviously not completely descended from Bulgar and Slavic migrants. Rather modern Bulgarians are descendants of Thracians who adopted a Bulgarian national identity. So, in essence, Bulgarian is the cultural and linguistic link of Macedonians and Thracians. We can't be strong without one other and this is the reason why I am discussing ways we could reconcile our differences and repair our Bulgarian bond.

The formation of a Macedonian national identity has its roots in the merging of Paeonians and Macedonians.They became a singular ethnic group as there were really no genetic nor significant cultural differences between both peoples. The Macedonians in Southern Macedonia fell under Hellenistic influence of Attica and Peloponnese whereas Macedonians in Northern Macedonia fell under Roman influence. This paved the way for the future splintering of Macedonians. Think of Justinian the First and how heavily Romanized he was despite having come from Northern Macedonia. The same with Macedonians who lived in Southern Macedonia and they were heavily Hellenistized (Hellenistic influence not Hellenic as the latter only came into existence in 19th century).

The North and South Macedonians were unified during the empires of Samuil and Simeon bringing the Macedonians under one banner. This banner today is called Bulgarian. The labeling of the common language and cultural sphere of Macedonia and Bulgaria is called Bulgarian. The problem with this kind of labeling is it completely makes our name, our history and our culture completely irrelevant. Whilst I don't ignore the common links between Bulgarians and Macedonians I don't believe the complete assimilation and the erasing of our identity under the banner of Bulgarianism could ever work. A lot of Bulgarians tried to impose East Bulgarian dialect on us in Solun schools but this failed and caused the rift between Bulgarians and Macedonians.

I believe the rift can be healed if Bulgarians recognize our distinct ethnic identity with no reservations. We could then again embrace the medieval history of Macedonians and Bulgarians unified under a single banner. It was then we did many great things and accomplished many feats yet matched by Macedonians and Bulgarians of today. The reunification of Macedonians and Bulgarians could be achieved by the formation of a federation that brings Macedonia and Bulgaria together. Only then will we be able to assert our national desires that are currently impossible.

Albanians will suddenly have no power in the federation as they would be relegated to only 5% of the total population. While other ethnic groups will remain pretty much the same percentage-wise.

[morski]

Nice thread!:thumb001:

I'm off to see the Bulgarian National Radio Big-band's concert for Jazz World Day, 30th of April now.

Will give my detailed input upon return.

[brunette]

Thracians have Pontic Greek and Southern Slavic blood. Bulgarians are just mostly Pontic Southern Slavs.

[Lithium]

Thracians have Pontic Greek and Southern Slavic blood. Bulgarians are just mostly Pontic Southern Slavs.

Thracians were much a much older ethnic group than the South Slavs.

[brunette]

Oh yes but they ended up there and intermarried with the Northern Greek population at the time.

[Crn Volk]

Bulgarians would also need to recognise the Macedonian literary language as a separate, but related language to Bulgarian. As for a common state, this should be left for the people to decide through a vote.

[Archduke]

What will be the common state called? :D Anyway, this idea is very nice, but people in FYROM hate bulgarians and if Bulgaria recognize the macedonian nation and languange, there will be no difference. The turko-mongol, tatar inults will remain. :coffee:

[Ivo Arandur]

I believe the root of the problem between Bulgarians and Macedonians ultimately lies with Bulgarians wanting to completely assimilate Macedonians into a Bulgarian national identity and our insistence to detach ourselves from everything Bulgarian.


Nicely put :thumbs up

When I was younger (not that I'm old now) I sympathised with those nationalistic groups in Bulgaria (VMRO and the likes) who claim "Macedonia is Bulgaria" and all that stuff - nowadays, they just annoy me...I really hate it when people can't be objective and can't or don't want to make the effort to see things as they are without all the propaganda garbage...

Of course I don't agree with everything you wrote...parts of what you wrote sounded like: "me and some friends all of a sudden deciding we are Thracians and claiming that all through history there has always existed a separate Thracian people and we even had medieval Thracian kings etc." :D But that's just me and I don't claim to be a history expert...who knows, your take on history may turn to be closer to reality than mine - but I think that should be left to be determined (objectively) by the professional historians...

The simple truth is that for considarable periods through the Middle Ages the people that lived on the territory of today's Bulgaria and Macedonia were united politically and culturally...as for the ethnicity of those people - there were Slavs, Bulgars, Cumans, Thracians, Jews, Vlachs and probably tens of other ethnicities (so why not Macedonians as well) -> united in one political entity...that's how all nations are born - by culturally and politically unifying the people living in a particular territory...the Ottoman conquest in the Balkans, however, interrupted that process...in the 18th and 19th century - a nation began to form here but never really formed completely since the territory/people were never united in one country (at least for any serious period of time)...and since eventually, there were 2 separate countries that were established here - it's only normal that nowadays we have 2 separate nations...

In any case, the people of Bulgaria and Macedonia (historically speaking) are as close to each other as it gets and we should use this and build on it...there's a saying in Bulgarian "брат брата не храни, но горко му който го няма" - we may quarrel all we like b/w ourselves but we'll be idiots if we don't use our closiness to our mutual advantage...after all in today's modern world and modern politics build on pure interest - it's a really powerful "weapon" to have an ally that's with you for reasons much deeper than cold interest...

p.s. as for the language - today's Macedonian language is obviously a separate language...sure, very close to Bulgarian but separate nonetheless...

p.s.2 oh and a Federation sounds cool but I don't know if it's possible :(

[Ivo Arandur]

What will be the common state called? :D

Federation of Bulgaria and Macedonia? I wonder if we are gonna have name problems with Greece :D

[Onur]

Bulgarians would also need to recognise the Macedonian literary language as a separate, but related language to Bulgarian. As for a common state, this should be left for the people to decide through a vote.
I don't know neither of these languages but i highly doubt that the difference between Macedonian and Bulgarian languages should have been created after 1878 because it was the Russians who standardized and classified Bulgarian language and current modern Bulgarian language is their product. They changed their language and many Russian words flooded to Bulgarian language in that time while Macedonia remained inside the Ottoman empire `till 1913, preserved their own language. For example, Pomaks claims that they speak older Bulgarian and they are mostly free from the russification of Bulgarian language.

Maybe the difference between the language of Skopje and Sofia was only in dialectical level before Russians standardized Bulgarian language.

[morski]

Ok, here's what I think...

Brief historical overview.

Macedonians and Bulgarians belong to the same meta-ethnicity, i.e. Analytical Balkano-Slavs. For most of the Ottoman period the Analytical Balkano-Slavs shared a common cultural identity with the rest of the Balkan Orthodox Christians under Ottoman control - Eastern Orthodox Romans (EOR) or Rummilet.

This cultural identity (EOR) became subject of disintegration processes in the mid XIX c. Around this time the Pahanriot clergy started the implementation of the Megali idea, while the Analytical Balkano-Slavs (ABS) proceeded with the formation of the Bulgarian identity - Bulgarmilet. The religious struggle of the
ABS with the Phanariots culminated in the establishment of the Exarchate and a common codified language was slowly emerging out of the ABS dialect continuum.

The process of ethnic consolidation and nation building was far from complete, however. There were those voices among the Macedonian intelectuals who opined that the new common language is not sufficiently representative of their local dialects and here we can see the initial stages of the divergence between the ABS that occurred later.

The establishment of the Bulgarian principality in 1878 after the Russo-turkish war of 1877-78 was hurried, premature especially considering that it failed to unite all the ABS within the new state. In the principality this vague Vazrazhdane/Prerodba Bulgarian identity was hardened, it became part of the new state's ideology - Bulgarshtina. At the same time the Macedonian ABS remained under Ottoman control and despite that they still held to this Bulgarian identity of the Vazrazhdane/Prerodba the divergence was slowly expanding.

The 1903 Ilinden-Preobrazhenie uprising had a disastrous consequences for the Macedonian ABS and the reputation of the new Bulgarian state among them, since it failed to help them in the way they expected. Around this time K. Misirkov and other young intelectuals from Macedonia put forward the idea that the Macdedonian ABS need their own separate national identity - "Macdedonians". The subsequent Balkan wars and WWI were correctly dubbed national catastrophe in Bulgaria and only accelerated the divergence with the Macedonian ABS now being subject to Serb colonization and assimilation efforts.

The last blow to the common Bulgarian identity was delt with the WWII Bulgarian occupation of Macedonia which although initially welcomed by the Macedonian ABS soon started to resemble the previous Serb police state in the region. Bulgarian authorities expected the Macedonian ABS to express themselves in standard Bulgarian despite lacking formal instruction in the language, accusations of separatism were voiced, etc.

Around this time it became obvious that the Bulgarian identity in the kingdom is no longer compatible with the Bulgarian Vazrazhdane/Prerodba identity of the Macedonian ABS.

After the establishment of Tito's Yugoslavia the separate Macedonian identity was accepted by the people and here we are today with a pretty complex case in our hands...

The Bulgarian position should be: Acceptance of the facts of the day. There is a separate Macedonian nation. There is a separate albeit closely related Macedonian language.

The Macedonian position should be: Acceptance of the facts of history. There is a separate Macedonian nation, but in the XIX and early XX c. the Macedonian ABS worked together with the rest of the ABS in order to build a common nation that was called Bulgarian. The divergence became irreversible around the mid XX c. and that's when Macedonian ABS abandoned the Bulgarian identity and started building the Macedonian one on the basis of their strong regional identity.


At the end of this too long for my tastes post I'd like to highly recommend the article: Bernard Lory: The Bulgarian-Macedonian Divergence. An Attempted Elucidation (http://books.google.bg/books?id=TRttHdXjP14C&pg=PA165&lpg=PA165&dq=Bernard+Lory:+The+Bulgarian-Macedonian+Divergence.+An+Attempted+Elucidation&source=bl&ots=JkaxOvMeIM&sig=HKDlnAOWkEVgj7aY-GKNwfvetno&hl=bg&sa=X&ei=QeKfT_7jB-TO4QS0sI3qAg&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Bernard%20Lory%3A%20The%20Bulgarian-Macedonian%20Divergence.%20An%20Attempted%20Elucid ation&f=false) from which I heavily borrowed writing this text. Please share your thoughts about it.

[morski]

I don't know neither of these languages but i highly doubt that the difference between Macedonian and Bulgarian languages should have been created after 1878 because it was the Russians who standardized and classified Bulgarian language and current modern Bulgarian language is their product. They changed their language and many Russian words flooded to Bulgarian language in that time while Macedonia remained inside the Ottoman empire `till 1913, preserved their own language. For example, Pomaks claims that they speak older Bulgarian and they are mostly free from the russification of Bulgarian language.

Maybe the difference between the language of Skopje and Sofia was only in dialectical level before Russians standardized Bulgarian language.

This simply isn't true. A myriad of literary activists shaped the modern Bulgarian language in the Vazrazhdane period and later it was regulated by the institute for Bulgarian language by the Bulgarian Academy of Science.

The heavy Russian influence is because most of the Vazrozhdenci Bulgarian intelectuals were educated in imperial Russia. Furthermore there was an intentional effort to get rid of Turkisms in the language by substituting them with Russian loanwords. This is acceptable, imo, since Russian itself was heavily influenced by Old bulgarian and in many cases these Russian loanwords are actually Old Bulgarian ones anyway. Besides, better have Slavic loanwords in a Slavic language than Turkish loanwords in a Slavic language.

Although all words regardless of origin are a wealth for any language. I personally use a lot of Turkisms in colloquial conversations.

[Onur]

The heavy Russian influence is because most of the Vazrozhdenci Bulgarian intelectuals were educated in imperial Russia.
Either done by the Russians themselves or Russophil Bulgarians but the result is same, so you agree what i said.


Although all words regardless of origin are a wealth for any language. I personally use a lot of Turkisms in colloquial conversations.
I agree to that and already, i didn't remind russification of Bulgarian language as an insult, i just think that this could be the reason of your language`s differences from Macedonian slavic.

We did same in 1930s and cleared Persian and Arabic words from Turkish and replaced those with old and previously forgotten Turkic words but we ended up replacing those Persian/Arabic ones with French words laters and today, English words became popular. I regret that we dumped those Perso-Arabic words, it was making Turkish more richer but we have English words today, totally incompatible with our language.

[morski]

Either done by the Russians themselves or Russophil Bulgarians but the result is same, so you agree what i said.


I agree to that and already, i didn't remind russification of Bulgarian language as an insult, i just think that this could be the reason of your language`s differences from Macedonian slavic.

We did same in 1930s and cleared Persian and Arabic words from Turkish and replaced those with old and previously forgotten Turkic words but we ended up replacing those Persian/Arabic ones with French words laters and today, English words became popular. I regret that we dumped those Perso-Arabic words, it was making Turkish more richer but we have English words today, totally incompatible with our language.

It's more complicated than that. We ended up in different countries and that's the biggest reason imo. They didn't have that much trouble studying and using standard Bulgarian in Exarchate schools before Vardar Macedonia was sacrificed at the altar of Serb Grandomania. :shrug:

I have heard some of them say that Bulgarian sounds closer to Russian in contrast to Macedonian, though.

[Crn Volk]

This is a great thread, and some great ideas and thoughts are being thrown around. Federation of Bulgaria and Macedonia has a certain ring to it :)
For Macedonians it would mean we would be united with Pirin Macedonia. We would maintain our Macedonian national consiousness and our Macedonian language. we would also have the benefit of added security by a combined Macedonian-Bulgarian army patrolling the Albania-Kosovo borders.
For Bulgarians, they would finally have unity with Macedonia, and Ohrid be returned in the borders of Bulgaria-Macedonia.

[Crn Volk]

Federation of Bulgaria and Macedonia? I wonder if we are gonna have name problems with Greece :D

Nah, Bulgaria is already a NATO and EU member.

[Queen B]

Good. Same ethnicity, same language, it would be good that Bulgaria will be united again :thumbs up

[iNird]

I prefer separation of Macedonia between Albania/Kosova and Bulgaria over a federation of Bulgaria and Macedonia. Albanians inhabited areas would ask to join Albania/Kosova if a federation ever took place.

[Crn Volk]

I prefer separation of Macedonia between Albania/Kosova and Bulgaria over a federation of Bulgaria and Macedonia. Albanians inhabited areas would ask to join Albania/Kosova if a federation ever took place.

Of course you would. Albanians would be a smaller minority than Turks and Roma in such a federation. I'd like to see how you fare against a united Macedonian-Bulgarian army, and a NATO and EU member state.

[Crn Volk]

What will be the common state called? :D Anyway, this idea is very nice, but people in FYROM hate bulgarians and if Bulgaria recognize the macedonian nation and languange, there will be no difference. The turko-mongol, tatar inults will remain. :coffee:

This is wrong. Alot of the animosity stems from Bulgaria's current policy of denying the existence of the Macedonian nation and language. With Bulgaria's recognition of this, you'll find attitudes amongst Macedonians, and in particular the media and intellectuals will change.

[morski]

The integrity of Macedonia is the key to peace and stability in the region in my opinion. Any conflict and especially a possible redrawing of borders can have the potential to blow off the powder keg.

[iNird]

Of course you would. Albanians would be a smaller minority than Turks and Roma in such a federation. I'd like to see how you fare against a united Macedonian-Bulgarian army, and a NATO and EU member state.

Well its obvious why albanians would be opposed to the idea. Fyromians would be opposed o the idea of a federation with Albania as well.

PS Albanians in fyrom want fyrom to join NATO and the EU unfortunately the fyromial stupidity is preventing progress in both areas.

[Petros Houhoulis]

The integrity of Macedonia is the key to peace and stability in the region in my opinion. Any conflict and especially a possible redrawing of borders can have the potential to blow off the powder keg.

As things progress, all of the Western Balkans are getting bypassed by the E.U., the new superhighway shall be beginning in Hamburg and ending in Piraeus, going through Bulgaria and Romania. Soon, the fastest way to get to Western Europe would be through this highway and not through former Yugoslavia, and some folks will be begging to be allowed into Bulgaria...

What we see here is the beginning of the end...

[Crn Volk]

As things progress, all of the Western Balkans are getting bypassed by the E.U., the new superhighway shall be beginning in Hamburg and ending in Piraeus, going through Bulgaria and Romania. Soon, the fastest way to get to Western Europe would be through this highway and not through former Yugoslavia, and some folks will be begging to be allowed into Bulgaria...

What we see here is the beginning of the end...

Nah, Corridor 10 is being upgraded at the moment, with the help of EU funding. Think again Petros.

http://www.putevi-srbije.rs/strategijapdf/corr10.jpg

[Crn Volk]

Well its obvious why albanians would be opposed to the idea. Fyromians would be opposed o the idea of a federation with Albania as well.

PS Albanians in fyrom want fyrom to join NATO and the EU unfortunately the fyromial stupidity is preventing progress in both areas.

No it is Greek stupidity. Trying to deny a people the right to self identify. This is stupid.

[Queen B]

No it is Greek stupidity. Trying to deny a people the right to self identify. This is stupid.

Not more stupid than identifying with something that doesn't belong to you and claiming things that doesn't belong to you

[Crn Volk]

Not more stupid than identifying with something that doesn't belong to you and claiming things that doesn't belong to you

The Neo-Greeks have based their existence on this and are very good at it.

[Queen B]

The Neo-Greeks have based their existence on this and are very good at it.
Well, historians, linguistics,scholars and facts disagree with you.
:coffee:

Keep inventing ''Macedonians'' like Alexander the Great, Goce Delcev, Mother Teresa, or even Cyril and Methodius
:rotfl:
Rename all of your streets/buildings/stadiums/airports to Greek names and build as much as big statues you can.. It ll help you to believe it
:rotfl:

[Crn Volk]

Well, historians, linguistics,scholars and facts disagree with you.
:coffee:

Keep inventing ''Macedonians'' like Alexander the Great, Goce Delcev, Mother Teresa, or even Cyril and Methodius
:rotfl:
Rename all of your streets/buildings/stadiums/airports to Greek names and build as much as big statues you can.. It ll help you to believe it
:rotfl:

133 countries including the USA, Russia, China believe it...:coffee:

[Queen B]

133 countries including the USA, Russia, China believe it...:coffee:
Countries -> Diplomacy, agenda, subjective reasons
Scholars, historians, linguistics -> knowledge, historical truth, facts.

When you''ll learn the difference of that, and when you learn how to base your sayings on historical facts, historians, linguistics and scholars, when we are talking about HISTORY, and not in political parties or countries and govermnments, we ll talk about it again :fponder:

[Drawing-slim]

Well, historians, linguistics,scholars and facts disagree with you.
:coffee:

Keep inventing ''Macedonians'' like Alexander the Great, Goce Delcev, Mother Teresa, or even Cyril and Methodius
:rotfl:
Rename all of your streets/buildings/stadiums/airports to Greek names and build as much as big statues you can.. It ll help you to believe it
:rotfl:It is funny. They keep buildin bigger and bigger statues as if really wanna convince themselves:D

[Crn Volk]

It is funny. They keep buildin bigger and bigger statues as if really wanna convince themselves:D

We have much to honour and celebrate. Who are your heroes? The Belushi bros?

[Drawing-slim]

We have much to honour and celebrate. Who are your heroes? The Belushi bros?

You "great old macedonians" are my heroes, in a comidic sense:D

[Romanion]

Nice to see slavo-Macedonians finaly embracing their real identity, 50 years of communist propganda takes long to clean.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Nice to see slavo-Macedonians finaly embracing their real identity, 50 years of communist propganda takes long to clean.

You clearly can't read very well if you think that was what I suggested in the first post. Let me break it down for you Mister Smart Greek of 10,000 year old civilization. What I suggested would basically let us resolve differences with Bulgarians while not ignoring their Bulgarizating effects on Macedonians. With this we can retain our Macedonian identity, history and civilization all at the same we take back our Aegean and Pirin Macedonias through military reconquistia and federalization of Macedonia and Bulgaria. In other words you guys would get fucked. I wonder if you can even afford to buy ammo in your economy?

[Romanion]

You clearly can't read very well if you think that was what I suggested in the first post. Let me break it down for you Mister Smart Greek of 10,000 year old civilization. What I suggested would basically let us resolve differences with Bulgarians while not ignoring their Bulgarizating effects on Macedonians. With this we can retain our Macedonian identity, history and civilization all at the same we take back our Aegean and Pirin Macedonias through military reconquistia and federalization of Macedonia and Bulgaria. In other words you guys would get fucked. I wonder if you can even afford to buy ammo in your economy?

I think you play too many computer games and watch too many Hollywood movies. If FYROM and Bulgaria re-unite that would be great for the region. The key word here is re-unite, meaning the same people seperated and commming together again.

Montenegro and Republic serbska need to join Serbia, enough with these tiny states and balkan divisions.

[poiuytrewq0987]

I think you play too many computer games and watch too many Hollywood movies. If FYROM and Bulgaria re-unite that would be great for the region. The key word here is re-unite, meaning the same people seperated and commming together again.

Montenegro and Republic serbska need to join Serbia, enough with these tiny states and balkan divisions.

You need to learn how to read properly if the excerpt you bolded was all you could read. Let me break it down even further for you.


What I suggested would basically let us resolve differences with Bulgarians


With this we can maintain our Macedonian identity, history and civilization

You are a horrible illiterate if I have to break down things for you. Go back and read my first post then come back and reply. Acutally, don't, you are a hopeless case.

[Romanion]

You need to learn how to read properly if the excerpt you bolded was all you could read. Let me break it down even further for you.





You are a horrible illiterate if I have to break down things for you. Go back and read my first post then come back and reply. Acutally, don't, you are a hopeless case.

The differences between Slavo-Macedonians and Bulgarians are artificial and fake, that is why I choose to ignore it. If by phrasing it this way it comforts you while you come closer with your real brothers that's fine by me. Bulgaria had a cultural revival and renassance similar to the Greeks in the Ottoman empire. "Macedonians" had Cento tell them they are Macedonians and that's about it. All FYROM "liberation" groups like IMRO were actually Bulgarian.

You claim that Bulgaria has to recognize fake history of your country, and maybe Bulgaria should turn a blind eye to the crap for reconciliation sake.

[poiuytrewq0987]

The differences between Slavo-Macedonians and Bulgarians are artificial and fake, that is why I choose to ignore it. If by phrasing it this way it comforts you while you come closer with your real brothers that's fine by me. Bulgaria had a cultural revival and renassance similar to the Greeks in the Ottoman empire. "Macedonians" had Cento tell them they are Macedonians and that's about it. All FYROM "liberation" groups like IMRO were actually Bulgarian.

You claim that Bulgaria has to recognize fake history of your country, and maybe Bulgaria should turn a blind eye to the crap for reconciliation sake.

Yeah, yeah sure I never said you would like the idea but guess what? The Bulgarians here have said they are all for it and so am I. We would in essence become stronger and so will Bulgaria. Samaras has said he isn't afraid of a so called Greater Bulgaria but let him read my post and he certainly will become very, very afraid should a duality of our identity meet mainstream acceptance and the formation of a Bulgarian-Macedonian federation. You'll have your precious little Aegean Macedonia swiped out from under your feet and Greece'll go back to being the bitches of Turkey. You can take your Anatolian immigrants in Macedonia with you as well.

[Romanion]

[QUOTE]Yeah, yeah sure I never said you would like the idea but guess what? The Bulgarians here have said they are all for it and so am I.

I think you forget this is a mere discussion boad on the internet and not high level meetings between countries. You talk like you are an elected member of RoM.


We would in essence become stronger and so will Bulgaria. Samaras has said he isn't afraid of a so called Greater Bulgaria but let him read my post and he certainly will become very, very afraid

Samaras should be scared of an online post, I think you need to get out more :loco:


should a duality of our identity meet mainstream acceptance and the formation of a Bulgarian-Macedonian federation. You'll have your precious little Aegean Macedonia swiped out from under your feet and Greece'll go back to being the bitches of Turkey. You can take your Anatolian immigrants in Macedonia with you as well.

I think this forum is giving you a power trip :coffee:

[Queen B]

Yeah, yeah sure I never said you would like the idea but guess what? The Bulgarians here have said they are all for it and so am I.
I am all for it! Bulgaria will be re-united, and brothers will be part of the same country again, as they were in the past
:thumb001:


We would in essence become stronger and so will Bulgaria. Samaras has said he isn't afraid of a so called Greater Bulgaria but let him read my post and he certainly will become very, very afraid should a duality of our identity meet mainstream acceptance and the formation of a Bulgarian-Macedonian federation. Samaras will shit his pants :lol00002:


You'll have your precious little Aegean Macedonia swiped out from under your feet and Greece'll go back to being the bitches of Turkey.
Look who's Turkey's bitch here. Obviously someone that post's favorable things about Ottoman empire, and one that is basing his hopes in Turkey's support.
That's what a bitch is. Turkey claps, and you dance;)

[poiuytrewq0987]

I am all for it! Bulgaria will be re-united, and brothers will be part of the same country again, as they were in the past
:thumb001:

Dumb twat... you purposefully ignore parts of my post to personally attack me. What a great moderator you are.

[Queen B]

Dumb twat... you purposefully ignore parts of my post to personally attack me. What a great moderator you are.
Do you know how to read, or not?
Where on earth did you saw a .... personal attack? :lol:

I repeated my post (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=868521&postcount=17), simple as that.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Do you know how to read, or not?
Where on earth did you saw a .... personal attack? :lol:

I repeated my post (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=868521&postcount=17), simple as that.

If you thought that your previous ignorant trollfest of a post wasn't a personal attack... think again.

[Queen B]

If you thought that your previous ignorant trollfest of a post wasn't a personal attack... think again.

Dusan, I am not going to delete your post calling a mod as a Dumb twat, neither I ll ban you for your insulting comments and... neg reps to ... a moderator , and I am going to let all people read both of our comments.

Any person with IQ above 50, can understand who did a personal attack here, and who is going overboard.

If you think that the world goes around you, keep in mind that other people don't.

Have a nice day..

[Romanion]

Dusan, I am not going to delete your post calling a mod as a Dumb twat, neither I ll ban you for your insulting comments and... neg reps to ... a moderator , and I am going to let all people read both of our comments.

Any person with IQ above 50, can understand who did a personal attack here, and who is going overboard.

If you think that the world goes around you, keep in mind that other people don't.

Have a nice day..

They think you called them Bulgarians when you said the same people should re-unite. Just because they share 1300 years of history before Cento doesn't mean they are the same people...

They are Macedonians, speaking the lanugage of Alexander the Great who spread Slavic culture throughout the middle east. "Bulgarians" are invented nationality, slavic migration never happened, the Balkan wars divided an ancient state, and every slavic speaking people was calling themselves Macedonian 100 years ago before the evil Greeks forced Greeks from Anatolia to settle there which was all apart of the plan from the start.

Trolling aside, it is unreasonable to think they will suddenly embrace the truth, they have build their largest statues in RoM off of ancient Macedonians. To turn around now would make them look stupid, so the obvious solution is to build an even taller statue of Phillip II.

[Onur]

Samaras has said he isn't afraid of a so called Greater Bulgaria but let him read my post and he certainly will become very, very afraid should a duality of our identity meet mainstream acceptance and the formation of a Bulgarian-Macedonian federation.
Samaras is a politician and he is lying. Greece would never desire collaboration between Macedonia and Bulgaria. They always favor instability because the core of the official Greek politics is "megali idea". They indoctrinated Greek citizens with it for about 2 centuries and this has became their reason d`etre. They might postpone it or don't speak about it but it doesn't mean that they forgot it completely.

After expanding their territories for 4 times in Aegean Macedonia, Crete, Aegean islands and western Thrace, they entered two more wars in Anatolia and Cyprus in the name of megali idea. They do it in 7th time if they find an opportunity. This is what their church&state`s official doctrine and they raise Greek citizens with it. So, they desire Vardar Macedonia, southern Albania, Anatolia to be included in their pseudo-hellenic entity and to be able to achieve this in the future, they need unstable Balkans with animosity between everyone. A peace between Macedonia, Turkey, Albania, Serbia or inside Cyprus works against their hellenism and megali idea. They need conflicts, more and more.

If you don't believe this, just look at the election propaganda video of Samaras. It has the images of Alexander the Great and Hagia Sophia, Istanbul. They are obsessed with that;
RSQW_Gh_S2w

I can go further than that and claim that if there would be no Turkey, powerful enough to prevent their megali idea myths, they would already settle with Serbians and attack Vardar Macedonia in 1991 to invade it.

[Queen B]

They think you called them Bulgarians when you said the same people should re-unite. Just because they share 1300 years of history before Cento doesn't mean they are the same people...

They are Macedonians, speaking the lanugage of Alexander the Great who spread Slavic culture throughout the middle east. "Bulgarians" are invented nationality, slavic migration never happened, the Balkan wars divided an ancient state, and every slavic speaking people was calling themselves Macedonian 100 years ago before the evil Greeks forced Greeks from Anatolia to settle there which was all apart of the plan from the start.

How that didn't pass through my mind. Yeah, right :coffee:


Trolling aside, it is unreasonable to think they will suddenly embrace the truth, they have build their largest statues in RoM off of ancient Macedonians. To turn around now would make them look stupid, so the obvious solution is to build an even taller statue of Phillip II.
Wow, Good for them, earthquakes are not very common there ;)

[Duke]

Maybe Macedonians should focus on owning greeks instead, like in good ol' times :D

[Romanion]

Samaras is a politician and he is lying. Greece would never desire collaboration between Macedonia and Bulgaria. They always favor instability because the core of the official Greek politics is "megali idea". They indoctrinated Greek citizens with it for about 2 centuries and this has became their reason d`etre. They might postpone it or don't speak about it but it doesn't mean that they forgot it completely.

After expanding their territories for 4 times in Aegean Macedonia, Crete, Aegean islands and western Thrace, they entered two more wars in Anatolia and Cyprus in the name of megali idea. They do it in 7th time if they find an opportunity. This is what their church&state`s official doctrine and they raise Greek citizens with it. So, they desire Vardar Macedonia, southern Albania, Anatolia to be included in their pseudo-hellenic entity and to be able to achieve this in the future, they need unstable Balkans with animosity between everyone. A peace between Macedonia, Turkey, Albania, Serbia or inside Cyprus works against their hellenism and megali idea. They need conflicts, more and more.

If you don't believe this, just look at the election propaganda video of Samaras. It has the images of Alexander the Great and Hagia Sophia, Istanbul. They are obsessed with that;
RSQW_Gh_S2w

I can go further than that and claim that if there would be no Turkey, powerful enough to prevent their megali idea myths, they would already settle with Serbians and attack Vardar Macedonia in 1991 to invade it.

We want land from albania and FYROM? I don't think so, Constantinople? sure why not.

[poiuytrewq0987]

We want land from albania and FYROM? I don't think so, Constantinople? sure why not.

If anything Byzantium should go to Bulgaria since they have a much better historical claim to it. New Rome was only grandfathered to the Greeks after the successes of Constantine I who didn't have one iota of Greek blood in him. However I don't believe the city nor the region should change hands again since 10 million Turks live there (about the same amount of Greeks in all of Greece).

[Queen B]

If you don't believe this, just look at the election propaganda video of Samaras. It has the images of Alexander the Great and Hagia Sophia, Istanbul. They are obsessed with that;

http://xbradtc.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/facepalm.jpg

[Romanion]

[QUOTE]If anything Byzantium should go to Bulgaria since they have a much better historical claim to it.

Like what.


New Rome was only grandfathered to the Greeks after the successes of Constantine I who didn't have one iota of Greek blood in him.

His mother was Greek, his father came from what is now Serbia I believe.



However I don't believe the city nor the region should change hands again since 10 million Turks live there (about the same amount of Greeks in all of Greece).

Turks didn't have a problem sending over 1 million Greeks off of anatolia or cleansing northern Cyprus of Greeks. Do as I say not as I do?

[morski]

Nice map in your avatar, Dusan. Look at the map that was proposed at the...


The 1876–1877 Constantinople Conference (Turkish: Tersane Konferansı from the conference venue Tersane Sarayı or 'Shipyard Palace') of the Great Powers (Britain, Russia, France, Germany, Austria-Hungary and Italy) was held in Constantinople (Istanbul)[1] from 23 December 1876 until 20 January 1877. Following the Herzegovinian Rebellion started in 1875 and the Bulgarian Uprising in April 1876, the Great Powers agreed on a project for political reforms both in Bosnia and in the Ottoman territories with a majority[2] Bulgarian population.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Constantinople_conference_west.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Constantinople_conference_east.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Balkan_boundaries1876map1914.png


Bulgaria

The Great Powers agreed on a substantial Bulgarian autonomy to take the form of two new Ottoman provinces (vilayets) established for the purpose: Eastern, with capital Tarnovo, and Western, with capital Sofia.

The conference determined that, as of the late 19th century, the Bulgarian ethnic territories within the Ottoman Empire extended to Tulcea and the Danube Delta in the northeast, Ohrid and Kastoria in the southwest, Kirklareli and Edirne in the southeast, and Leskovac and Niš in the northwest. These territories were to be incorporated into the two Bulgarian autonomous provinces as follows:

* Eastern Bulgarian autonomous province, including the Ottoman sandjaks – second level administrative divisions – of Tırnova, Rusçuk, Tulça, Varna, Sliven, Filibe (bar the kazas – third level administrative divisions – of Sultaneri and Ahıçelebi), and part of the Edirne sandjak including the kazas of Kırkkilise, Mustafapaşa and Kızılağaç.[7][8]
* Western Bulgarian autonomous province, including the sandjaks of Sofya, Vidin, Niş, Üsküp, Manastır (bar the kazas of Debre and Korça), the Nevrokop, Menlik and Demirhisar kazas of the Serez sandjak, and the kazas of Ustrumca, Köprülü, Tikveş and Kesriye.[7][8]

The Great Powers elaborated in detail the constitutional, legislative, executive, defense and law enforcement arrangements, cantonal administrative system, taxation, international supervision etc. for the proposed autonomous provinces.


... which was inspired by the Exarchate borders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinople_Conference

[poiuytrewq0987]

Nice map in your avatar, Dusan. Look at the map that was proposed at the...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Balkan_boundaries1876map1914.png



... which was inspired by the Exarchate borders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinople_Conference

Constantinople Conference borders is nice for Bulgaria but it doesn't benefit Macedonians in any way. The borders would only have served Bulgarization interests and the complete loss of our regional identity. There must be a Bulgaria-Macedonia borders that include all of Macedonian and Thracian territories if we are to preserve each others' unique regional identities. It'd be like letting Italy keep the southern half of Bavaria while only leaving North Bavaria for Germany.

This is my ideal map below; there should be a sort of a federation between Bulgaria and Macedonia with a name that would recognize the common Bulgarianness but won't deny the "Macedonianness" of Macedonians nor "Bulgarianness" of Bulgarians/Thracians.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/Greater_Bulgaria_map_1913.JPG

[Crn Volk]

Constantinople Conference borders is nice for Bulgaria but it doesn't benefit Macedonians in any way. The borders would only have served Bulgarization interests and the complete loss of our regional identity. There must be a Bulgaria-Macedonia borders that include all of Macedonian and Thracian territories if we are to preserve each others' unique regional identities. It'd be like letting Italy keep the southern half of Bavaria while only leaving North Bavaria for Germany.

This is my ideal map below; there should be a sort of a federation between Bulgaria and Macedonia with a name that would recognize the common Bulgarianness but won't deny the "Macedonianness" of Macedonians nor "Bulgarianness" of Bulgarians/Thracians.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/Greater_Bulgaria_map_1913.JPG

The name Federal Republic of Bulgaria-Macedonia is fine. For the monarchists however, they may prefer something like Kingdom of Bulgaria & Macedonia

http://www.kingsimeon.bg/

[morski]

Constantinople Conference borders is nice for Bulgaria but it doesn't benefit Macedonians in any way. The borders would only have served Bulgarization interests and the complete loss of our regional identity. There must be a Bulgaria-Macedonia borders that include all of Macedonian and Thracian territories if we are to preserve each others' unique regional identities. It'd be like letting Italy keep the southern half of Bavaria while only leaving North Bavaria for Germany.

This is my ideal map below; there should be a sort of a federation between Bulgaria and Macedonia with a name that would recognize the common Bulgarianness but won't deny the "Macedonianness" of Macedonians nor "Bulgarianness" of Bulgarians/Thracians.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/Greater_Bulgaria_map_1913.JPG

The Conference envisioned two separate autonomous vilaets - Western Bulgaria and Eastern Bulgaria. The western part is Macedonia plus the Torlak and Shopi areas(pretty similar dialect-wise). Would have been convenient to preserve the regional character that way imo.

[poiuytrewq0987]

The Conference envisioned two separate autonomous vilaets - Western Bulgaria and Eastern Bulgaria. The western part is Macedonia plus the Torlak and Shopi areas(pretty similar dialect-wise). Would have been convenient to preserve the regional character that way imo.

Well yes but it would have left out Macedonians who lived south of the Western borders meaning leaving them to hounds of Hellenization or Turkification and even Albanization which is nothing different from committing murder on a brother.

There must be a truly united Macedonia and Bulgaria if we are to preserve every tenet of uniqueness of our societies. To leave a kilometer of Bulgarian soil to a Greek or a Turk is inherently betraying our people for a no-good cause.

To let parts of Macedonia or Thrace for the Greeks and Serbs to keep is the equivalent of letting Italy keep parts of Bavaria or Poles keep parts of Prussia. We would lose a huge part of our soul and what makes our people a people. Abandon no inch and gain miles of traction for our people. It doesn't get simpler than that.

[Incal]

Well, historians, linguistics,scholars and facts disagree with you.
:coffee:

Keep inventing ''Macedonians'' like Alexander the Great, Goce Delcev, Mother Teresa, or even Cyril and Methodius
:rotfl:
Rename all of your streets/buildings/stadiums/airports to Greek names and build as much as big statues you can.. It ll help you to believe it
:rotfl:

LOL they claiming Mother Teresa too?

[Queen B]

LOL they claiming Mother Teresa too?
Yeah, along with the others I mentioned :lol:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3139003.stm
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=711
http://www.grazzhopprz.com/mother-teresa-a-macedonian-saint-who-continues-to-inspire/
http://www.balkanpeace.org/index.php?index=article&articleid=13143

[poiuytrewq0987]

Yeah, along with the others I mentioned :lol:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3139003.stm
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=711
http://www.grazzhopprz.com/mother-teresa-a-macedonian-saint-who-continues-to-inspire/
http://www.balkanpeace.org/index.php?index=article&articleid=13143

Teresa was born in Macedonia smart girl...

[Queen B]

Teresa was born in Macedonia smart girl...
Mother Teresa was born in Skopje, part of Ottoman empire, and now part of Fyrom.
That doesn't make her Fyromian, since, neither her origin is, neither she ever identified as such.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Mother Teresa was born in Skopje, part of Ottoman empire, and now part of Fyrom.
That doesn't make her Fyromian, since, neither her origin is, neither she ever identified as such.

You're right, she's actually Indian. :thumb001:


August marks the 100th anniversary of Mother Teresa's birth and few will be prouder than the citizens of her birthplace Skopje.

However, such is the appeal of the world's most famous Catholic nun and humanitarian that since her death there have been diplomatic squabbles over which nation can lay claim to her.

Last year, Albania called for her remains to be returned to lay alongside her mother and sister in the capital Tirana. India rejected the plea on the grounds that she was an Indian citizen.

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-05-26/world/mother.teresa.legacy_1_mother-teresa-catholic-nun-indian-citizen?_s=PM:WORLD

[Queen B]

You're right, she's actually Indian. :thumb001:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-38Or80_CcWg/T2GKmR2YIBI/AAAAAAAAJwE/K2jN2vtuex8/s1600/618px-JeanLucPicardFacepalm.jpg

[Drawing-slim]

She is albanian and rightfully so she should lay to rest in albania, in skopje only if the city is part of albanian country.
But those indians are always out to make a buck, the chipest people in the world. She goes there to help them and they shamelessly hold her hostage for eternity to a strange land that never produced her, against her wish.
I heard she pled to bill clinton to "save my people in kosovo" dont know how accurate this is but..

[morski]

This is wrong. Alot of the animosity stems from Bulgaria's current policy of denying the existence of the Macedonian nation and language. With Bulgaria's recognition of this, you'll find attitudes amongst Macedonians, and in particular the media and intellectuals will change.


Хулигани попречиха на българския посланик в Скопие да положи цветя в памет на Гоце Делчев в църквата „Св. Спас” в Скопие
04 май 2012 | 15:14 | Агенция "Фокус"
Начало / Македония
Скопие. Хулигани попречиха на българския посланик в Скопие да положи цветя в памет на Гоце Делчев в църквата „Св. Спас” в Скопие, съобщиха читатели на Агенция „Фокус” в македонската столица. Българската делегация, водена от новоназначения посланик в Скопие Иван Петков и съставена от местни българи, се е опитала да поднесе цветя пред саркофага, в който са положени костите на Апостола на борбите на българите от Македония и Одринско Гоце Делчев.
Пред църквата „Свети Спас” българската група е била нападната от организирана група хулигани.
Един от българите, очевидец, Драган Попов свидетелства така „ Аз бех на гробот и бехме спречени да се положат китки и ще дойдеше до физически побий избегнахме и посланикот не положи китки. Групата беше организирана антички и е от ВМРО-ДПМНЕ".
От разказа на очевидеца се разбира, че хулиганската група е била от античното крило на управляващата партия ВМРО-ДПМНЕ и че посланик Петков така и не е успял да положи цветя в памет на Гоце Делчев в деня на 109-годишнината от неговата гибел.

Агенция „Фокус” припомня:
Полагането на венци и цветя от българското посолство и от български делегации пред каменния саркофаг на Гоце Делчев в двора на църквата „Св. Спас” в Скопие по традиция е предизвиквало реакция в скопското ръководство. На няколко пъти бе отказвано на български посланици да полагат цветя в деня на рождение – 4 февруари / по нов стил/ и в деня на смъртта на Гоце Делчев – 4 май.
Отказвано бе правото да се полагат цветя и венци и на български държавни делегации.
Костите на Гоце Делчев са предадени на Народна Република Македония през 1946 г. със специален влак на гара Пирин, днес Кресна, през 1946 г. по решение на Политбюро на ЦК на БКП и по настояване на регента Тодор Павлов, назначен от Отечествения фронт през 1944 г. Тодор Павлов се смята за един от апологетите на македонизма в България. По това време министър-председателят Лазар Колишевски определя Гоце Делчев „като един българин, който няма значение за освободителната борба”, но въпреки това приема костите, които са положени в скопската църква „Св. Спас”.
© 2012 Всички права запазени. Позоваването на Информационна агенция "Фокус" е задължително!

http://www.focus-news.net/?id=n1649560

:(

[poiuytrewq0987]

http://www.focus-news.net/?id=n1649560

:(

This stuff is childish. A few years ago I remember reading about some Macedonians desecrating a Bulgarian plaque in Skopje.

[morski]

This stuff is childish. A few years ago I remember reading about some Macedonians desecrating a Bulgarian plaque in Skopje.

Yep. Funny thing is that the plaque is in memory of Mara Buneva who is Macedonian from Tetovo. She was IMRO member and assassinated Serbian official Velimir Prelic* in 1928 during the Serb colonization of Macedonia (Southern Banovina as it was known back then).

*
Prelić had been known for ordering arrests and tortures of young locals, members of Macedonian Youth Secret Revolutionary Organization (MYSRO), who openly opposed the Serbian rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara_Buneva

[poiuytrewq0987]

Yep. Funny thing is that the plaque is in memory of Mara Buneva who is Macedonian from Tetovo. She was IMRO member and assassinated Serbian official Velimir Prelic* in 1928 during the Serb colonization of Macedonia (Southern Banovina as it was known back then).

*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara_Buneva

This kind of stuff is just showing how far these hooligans are willing to go in the name of politics. Whatever happened to respect for women who died fighting for a cause? :rolleyes:

[Loki]

Thread closed.

Please keep personal insults out of it.