Genetic HIV Resistance In Northern Europeans

[Vulpix]

Genetic HIV Resistance Deciphered (http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2005/01/66198?currentPage=2)

Wired.com (http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2005/01/66198?currentPage=2)

Randy Dotinga 01.07.05

Throughout the history of the AIDS epidemic, a few lucky people have avoided infection despite being exposed again and again. Now, researchers are traveling back in evolutionary time to understand why some people are resistant -- and in some cases virtually immune -- to the AIDS virus.

Studies released this week and last year suggest that the roots of AIDS immunity extend back for centuries, long before the disease even existed. Our ethnic backgrounds and the illnesses suffered by our distant ancestors appear to play a crucial role in determining whether our genes will allow HIV to take hold in our bodies.

For now, the findings seem likely to inspire more raised eyebrows than cutting-edge drugs. But over time, the research into why some people don't get HIV may help doctors treat those who do. By understanding which genes help people fight off infection, "we might move to a time where we can make more refined decisions about timing or intensity of therapy. Now, it's like a glove where one size fits all," said Dr. Matthew Dolan, an AIDS specialist in the U.S. Air Force and co-author of a new AIDS genetics study in an online edition of the journal <cite>Science</cite>.

Genetic resistance to AIDS works in different ways and appears in different ethnic groups. The most powerful form of resistance, caused by a genetic defect, is limited to people with European or Central Asian heritage. An estimated 1 percent of people descended from Northern Europeans are virtually immune to AIDS infection, with Swedes the most likely to be protected. One theory suggests that the mutation developed in Scandinavia and moved southward with Viking raiders.

All those with the highest level of HIV immunity share a pair of mutated genes -- one in each chromosome -- that prevent their immune cells from developing a "receptor" that lets the AIDS virus break in. If the so-called CCR5 receptor -- which scientists say is akin to a lock -- isn't there, the virus can't break into the cell and take it over.

To be protected, people must inherit the genes from both parents; those who inherit a mutated gene from just one parent will end up with greater resistance against HIV than other people, but they won't be immune. An estimated 10 percent to 15 percent of those descended from Northern Europeans have the lesser protection.

Using formulas that estimate how long genetic mutations have been around, researchers have discovered that the mutation dates to the Middle Ages. (Similar research in mitochondrial DNA -- passed along by women -- has suggested that Europeans are all descended from seven Ice Age matriarchs.)

Why would the mutation stick around so long instead of giving up the ghost? Researchers initially thought the mutation provided protection against the bubonic plague that caused the Black Death in Europe. Those with the mutation would have lived longer and had more children while many of their neighbors died off. The fact that the genetic mutation also provided protection against HIV centuries later would just be a coincidence.

The plague scenario has been largely discarded in favor of another deadly scourge. "A disease like smallpox that has been continuous since that time ... is more likely," said Yale University professor of epidemiology Alison Galvani, who co-wrote a study about the possible smallpox link in 2003.

According to Galvani, while the plague came and went, smallpox stuck around well into the 20th century, providing even more incentive for a protective gene to live on: It would keep people alive generation after generation, instead of just during one brief epidemic.

There are other cases of genetic mutations affecting two diseases: People who inherit one of the two mutations necessary to develop sickle-cell anemia end up with extra resistance to malaria, said Dr. Donald Mosier, professor of immunology at The Scripps Research Institute in La Jolla, California.

Last February, Mosier co-wrote a report in the journal <cite>Nature</cite> that debunked the plague theory after researchers found that mice bred with the AIDS-protective gene mutation still got sick with the plague. Mosier's not quite sure smallpox deserves credit for extending the mutation's life either, however, and suspects that a less high-profile disease -- diarrhea-causing dysentery -- may be why the mutation has lived on.

Besides the Northern Europeans and Central Asians with the CCR5 receptor gene mutation, new research shows that members of several ethnic groups have another, less-powerful kind of AIDS resistance. In the <cite>Science</cite> study released this week, a large team of investigators report that people who have more copies of a specific gene end up with greater resistance to AIDS, in some cases significantly changing how they handle getting infected.

The researchers examined the number of copies of a gene known as CCL3L1 in 4,300 people -- some HIV-positive, some HIV-negative. Those with the most copies of the gene -- but only as compared with others in their ethnic group -- had the most immunity to HIV. The HIV-positive people with the fewest gene copies got sick as much as 2.6 times faster than others who were infected.

More copies of the CCL3L1 gene appear to translate into more proteins known as cytokines, which guide immune cells by latching onto receptors -- those cellular locks. The cytokines "tell inflammatory cells it's time to move and go somewhere," Mosier said. With more cytokines floating around gumming up the cellular keyholes, there are fewer locks for the AIDS virus to pick.

Compared with the almost-absolute protection afforded by the gene defects in Europeans, "the effect is not as complete, but the prevalence is much higher," said study co-author Dr. Sunil K. Ahuja, professor of medicine at the University of Texas and director of the Veterans Administration Center for HIV and AIDS in San Antonio.

What can scientists and doctors do with all this information? Doctors could potentially test AIDS patients to see if their genes make them especially vulnerable to progression of the disease, Ahuja said. "This hasn't happened yet, and we aren't there yet. But that would be some practical downstream value of the work we are doing."

Then there's the prospect that people will use genetic testing as a ticket to a carefree sex life. If you're naturally resistant to AIDS, why not dump the condoms and add a few notches to your bedpost?

The Scripps Research Institute's Mosier has gotten calls from curious citizens wondering about their genes. But don't go running to your nearest genetic laboratory just yet. For one thing, researchers aren't sure whether the protective genes both giveth and taketh away: Perhaps they make people more resistant to AIDS but also make them more vulnerable to other germs.

Then there's the pesky matter of the few people who have gotten infected with HIV even though they're supposed to be immune. "It's extremely rare," Mosier said, "but you don't want to tell people they'll be protected and then have them change their risk behavior and get exposed."

[Vulpix]

The attached maps show the frequency of the mutation to a gene called CCR5, said to confer resistance to HIV infection.

Source: http://www.learner.org/courses/biology/casestudy/hiv.html

[Arrow Cross]

And to think that miscegenation is being taught as a positive and HEALTHY thing in schools is more vomit-inducing than anything else liberal democrazies have ever produced so far.

Breed with a Negro and say goodbye to such resistances - your kids won't have them.

[Hweinlant]

This is interesting subject. Thankfully your data is bit outdated and the frequencies in North Europe are much higher than indicated in the study.

Here is map from study with larger samples and more coverage (Balanovsky et al 2006):

"More precisely, the area of highest
frequency lies between the Baltic and the White Seas.
Frequency above 15% can be observed in populations of
central Sweden, West Estonia, Finland and Northern Russia"

http://i35.tinypic.com/2sbu2h5.jpg

Highest overall frequency is found from Estonian island of Saaremaa and Southwest Finland, where frequency is up to 18%.

Funny thing is that the allele has allmost similar spread with light hair and light eyes (Data from North Russia is likely insufficent). They are not necessarely interconnected but the overlap is significant anyway.

Peter Frost 2006

http://i33.tinypic.com/ekfe6u.jpg
http://i36.tinypic.com/2lcpeh2.jpg

[Jarl]

Few more maps with frequencies of the immunity-conferring CCR5-Δ32 allele:

http://www.virologyj.com/content/figures/1743-422X-5-119-1-l.jpg

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/images/relevance/ccr5map.gif

[Brännvin]

Additionally, the Viking hypothesis of Lucotte also offers another explanation for appearance of CCR5-Δ32 in Europe.

Source (http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v96/n4/full/6800806a.html)


Study about the Geographic Spread of the CCR5 Δ32 HIV-Resistance Allele

Source (http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.0030339)

[~°2012°~]

you know what this means ...AIDS is RACIST (*crowd gasps*)

[Brännvin]

It seems that AIDS does not like of Scandinavians :D

[The Lawspeaker]

Peculiar that no such test was ever carried out here..:confused: A thing that I will have to add though is that Russia is being severely affected by the AIDS pandemic. Even though some areas on this map seem to indicate that Russians also would have some genetic resistance ?

It is perhaps a strange theory but could it also be that AIDS has more chance to succeed in infection a person if that person already has a compromised immune system ? (I ask this because the living standard in Russia is low compared to our own and also here mainly the drug users, untrained (call it amateur) prostitutes and homosexuals (and a lot of them are non-Dutch) getting it. All of whom are not exactly known for their healthy lifestyles.

[Lahtari]

A thing that I will have to add though is that Russia is being severely affected by the AIDS pandemic. Even though some areas on this map seem to indicate that Russians also would have some genetic resistance ?

If 13% of a population are resistant to AIDS, it still leaves the 87% who are not.


It is perhaps a strange theory but could it also be that AIDS has more chance to succeed in infection a person if that person does have a compromised immune system already ? (I ask this because the living standard in Russia is low compared to our own and also here mainly the drug users, untrained (call it amateur) prostitutes and homosexuals (and a lot of them are non-Dutch) getting it. All of whom are not really known for their healthy lifestyles.

Several years ago some top AIDS-researcher actually claimed that AIDS is a lifestyle sickness. I think he got shunned by the community and all his funding ceased.

[Tabiti]

That doesn't mean you should not take measures to protect yourself!

[The Lawspeaker]

Common sense is the best protection. Don't have one night stands and when you and your partner are going to take it further be sensible and have the pair of you tested.

[Aino]

I am a little envious of my mother, who carries two copies of the CCR5 delta 32 deletion, that is, she is immune to the most common strain of HIV. I carry only one copy of delta 32 so I am only partially immune. Or actually, one copy doesn't confer immunity. Instead, it seems to slow down progression to AIDS.

We also carry mtDNA H3, which is protective against AIDS:


Mitochondrial DNA haplogroups J and U5a were elevated among HIV-1 infected people who display accelerated progression to AIDS and death. Haplogroups Uk, H3, and IWX appeared to be highly protective against AIDS progression.

Mitochondrial DNA haplogroups influence AIDS progression. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19005266?dopt=Abstract)


Interestingly, like the mtDNA haplogroups J and U5a, the Y-DNA haplogroup I is apparently also linked to a faster progression to AIDS.

Association of Y chromosome haplogroup I with HIV progression, and HAART outcome (http://www.springerlink.com/content/b886346m7271417w/?p=afbc6728af0a4d659dd2880cb8c3356b&pi=0)

[The Black Prince]

Peter Frost 2006

http://i33.tinypic.com/ekfe6u.jpg
http://i36.tinypic.com/2lcpeh2.jpg
Those maps are a joke.. I've seen these from time to time, nobody knows on which researchdata these carts based?

I mean these carts are from 1965, so before the immigration of non-western allochtones. The last great researches concerning pigmentation were before WW-II (some just past). These contained 10,000's conscripts from each country and the data about their pigmentation was subdivided per region the conscripts came from. However the data from these conscripts are totally different than shown on this chart.

Just two comments of the list that could be compiled..

F.i. on this chart people from middle-Germany have lighter eyes than those from Norway, while Norway was one of the lightest eyed countries in the world and Trondelag was the lightest eyed regio in the world.:confused:

Concerning light hair, Sjaeland (Denmark) is here grouped with the 50-70% regions..Sjaelland is actually a dark hair island in the middle of northern Europe.

This is based upon conscripts database: though it should read light pigmentation instead of eye pigmentation.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h317/Adalwulf/Light_Eyes_Map_.png

[Falkata]

Those maps are a joke.. I've seen these from time to time, nobody knows on which researchdata these carts based?

I mean these carts are from 1965, so before the immigration of non-western allochtones. The last great researches concerning pigmentation were before WW-II (some just past). These contained 10,000's conscripts from each country and the data about their pigmentation was subdivided per region the conscripts came from. However the data from these conscripts are totally different than shown on this chart.

Just two comments of the list that could be compiled..

F.i. on this chart people from middle-Germany have lighter eyes than those from Norway, while Norway was one of the lightest eyed countries in the world and Trondelag was the lightest eyed regio in the world.:confused:

Concerning light hair, Sjaeland (Denmark) is here grouped with the 50-70% regions..Sjaelland is actually a dark hair island in the middle of northern Europe.

This is based upon conscripts database: though it should read light pigmentation instead of eye pigmentation.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h317/Adalwulf/Light_Eyes_Map_.png

This last map is a joke too. There´s not place in North Africa lighter than the half of Iberia, Italy, Greece...
Some people have seen some (always the same btw) pics of blond berbers and they think its quite common or something :D

[The Black Prince]

This last map is a joke too. There´s not place in North Africa lighter than the half of Iberia, Italy, Greece...
Some people have seen some (always the same btw) pics of blond berbers and they think its quite common or something :D

Perhaps not now anymore (*)..but first realize that if they had made the category 20-30%, southern Spain might have been in the same category.
Nexto that it are only pockets in North-Africa, just as there are pockets in Afghanistan, Iran et such of people with a higher percentage of light pigmentation traits as the surrounding population.

http://i35.tinypic.com/nb26h5.jpg

Second in the Netherlands we have quite a substantional Moroccan group. The occurence of blond hair as baby/little child is not absent among them.
And I know several Moroccans with freckles, (rufous or dark) brown hair and blue/green eyes.

And you do know about Maddy, that child that was missing but one reported to have sighted it in Morocco. It was not Maddy but a girl of a local Berber community, known for their intermediate pigmentation.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/09_04/notmaddyDM2609_468x896.jpg

other lighter examples:

http://www.dossierx.nl/images/stories/berberlow.jpg

For those who can read Dutch, here is a Dutch speaking Moroccan forum with a thread about the Berber pigmentation: http://forums.marokko.nl/archive/index.php/t-432954-p-1.html

(*) at the moment there are 30mln with the moroccan nationality (even if they migrate they keep the Moroccan nationality). of them 4mln are Berber. Of those 2mln live in Western Europe.

---

Another item is the blue spot in Syria, you probably noticed that to?

In the Netherlands we have a very fanatic Imam, who is Syrian of ancestry (migrated during the Gulfwar). Pale blue eyed Imam Fawaz Jneid:

http://i34.tinypic.com/2ex6h4k.jpg http://i34.tinypic.com/rwi25x.jpg

---

Now I'm not claiming that all these moroccans are light or such, but I do stress that during the 1930's Morocco was still divided in strict ethnic communities: Arabs in the towns and cities, Berbers (with a fair minority) in the hills and highlands and dark (negroid admixtured) Arabs/Berbers in the south. Nowadays the number of Berbers have halved in proportion when compared with the Arabs. So for your good bedrest, there is a good chance that on average those '25-35% intermediate/light' pigment spots in North-Africa must have halved, meaning that they are now in the 13-18% most likely even lower as Southern Spain...;)

[Falkata]

Perhaps not now anymore (*)..but first realize that if they had made the category 20-30% southern Spain might have been in the same category.
Nexto that it are only pockets in North-Africa just as there are pockets in Afghanistan, Iran et such of people with a higher percentage of light pigmentation traits as the surrounding population.

Second in the Netherlands we have quite a substantional Moroccan group. The occurence of blond hair as baby/little child is not absent among them.
http://i35.tinypic.com/nb26h5.jpg

And I know several Moroccans with freckles, (rufous or dark) brown hair and blue/green eyes.

And you do know about Maddy, that child that was missing but one reported to have sighted it in Morocco. It was not Maddy but a girl of a local Berber community known for their intermediate pigmentation.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/09_04/notmaddyDM2609_468x896.jpg

other lighter examples:

http://www.dossierx.nl/images/stories/berberlow.jpg

For those who can read Dutch, here is a Dutch speaking Moroccan forum with a thread about the Berber pigmentation: http://forums.marokko.nl/archive/index.php/t-432954-p-1.html

(*) at the moment there are 30mln with the moroccan nationality (even if they migrate they keep the Moroccan nationality). of them 4mln are Berber. Of those 2mln live in Western Europe.

---

Another item is the blue spot in Syria, you probably noticed that to?

In the Netherlands we have a very fanatic Imam, who is Syrian of ancestry (migrated during the Gulfwar). Pale blue eyed Imam Fawaz Jneid:

http://i34.tinypic.com/2ex6h4k.jpg http://i34.tinypic.com/rwi25x.jpg

---

Now I'm not claiming that all these moroccans are light or such, but I do stress that during the 1930's Morocco was still divided in strict ethnic communities: Arabs in the towns and cities, Berbers (with a fair minority) in the hills and highlands and dark (negroid admixtured) Arabs/Berbers in the south. Nowadays the number of Berbers have halved in proportion when compared with the Arabs. So for your good bedrest. There is a good chance that on average those '25-35% intermediate/light' pigment spots in North-Africa must have halved meaning that they are now in the 13-18% most likely even lower as Southern Spain...;)


The occurence of blondism in southern european kids is quite normal too. I was blond, Alexdelarge too... it´s not like something special. And I´ve seen that blond moroccans pics hundreds of times. If i posted photos of blond southern europeans i could post millions.

[The Black Prince]

They treated the Spanish in ethnic groups like they did the Moroccans.. perhaps the Catalan have blondism of 24% and the Berbers 20 or 21%. However they measured among the Berbers various local tribes. Some tribes perhaps reaching 30% blondism. The highlands were not as dense populated meaning that you do get a fair spot showable on a map when produced.

That is what I meant.:)

[Falkata]

Sigh.. Don't you get it that they treated the Spanish in ethnic groups like they did the Moroccans? perhaps the Catalan have blondism of 24% and the Berbers 20 or 21%. However they measured among the Berbers various local tribes. Some tribes perhaps reaching 30% blondism. The highlands were not as dense populated meaning that you do get a fair spot showable on a map when produced.

Get it now?

No, i have been in Morocco and Tunisia and i was in some berber villages and blondism wasn´t 20% at all even in kids. In my family blondism between childs is about 50% easily and we are not specially light

[The Black Prince]

Wow.. cause I have been to Spain, Italy, Greece etc.. and I apparantely didn't see that 50% of the local kids on the street were blond.;)

[Falkata]

Wow.. cause I have been to Spain, Italy, Greece etc.. and I apparantely didn't see that 50% of the local kids on the street were blond.;)

I didnt see your 20% blond berber kids neither, maybe the 2% :D

[The Black Prince]

They treated the Spanish in ethnic groups like they did the Moroccans.. perhaps the Catalan have blondism of 24% and the Berbers 20 or 21%. However they measured among the Berbers various local tribes. Some tribes perhaps reaching 30% blondism. The highlands were not as dense populated meaning that you do get a fair spot showable on a map when produced.

Here i meant blondism in adults, not meaning blond hair but light eyes opposed to dark and light hair as opposed to dark(=black).

Blondism in kids is always haircolour related, but for as far I know it was not taken in the selection.

Here is the part coon wrote, not based on theory. but just measurements according to the same scale (Martin and Von Luschan) used for other populations:


The Riffians are pinkish-white skinned, like northern Europeans, in 65 per cent of the total group, and in approximately 80 per cent in the central tribes. The exposed skin color is brick-red in many cases, being incapable of tanning; in others it is brunet-white or light brown in summer, and bleaches out again in winter. Freckles are found on 23 per cent of Riffians; this figure is approximate since some were measured in winter, others in the summer. The head hair is black in 44 per cent of the total, and dark to medium brown in 46 per cent; the others are reddish-brown or light brown; in a few cases, golden-blond. These last form less than 1 per cent of the whole, however. The beard is usually much lighter, being black in only 34 per cent of the total, dark or medium brown in 25 per cent, reddish-brown in 14 per cent, light brown in 19 per cent, and golden, ashen, or red in 8 per cent. Seventeen per cent of Riffians show some rufosity in beard color. Since the Riffians wear turbans, and since the few adults who still wear pigtails cover all but the ends of these, it is the beard color and not the head hair color which is responsible for the current idea of Riffian blondism. Furthermore the children, who go bareheaded, possess an infantile dominance of blondism, as among Europeans of mixed pigmentation. The blondest hair and beards are found in the central Rif, especially in the tribe of Beni Amart, where over 50 per cent of the men have beards light brown or lighter.

Fifty-seven per cent of Riffians have mixed or light eyes; of the remaining 43 per cent, dark brown is the commonest color. Green-brown is the commonest mixed form, then gray-brown and finally blue-brown: pure blue eyes account for only 2 per cent of the group, while only one man was observed with gray eyes. Unmatched eyes are common. In some tribes as few as 20 per cent are pure dark-eyed, in none more than 55 per cent. On the whole, blondism is strong in the Rif; over half of the adult men show some trace of it. But the Rif is not a blond country in the sense that Norway, Sweden, Finland, or even England are blond; it is, however, blonder than most of Spain or southern Italy.

http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/11-14.htm


And this is his about Spain, using the same scale of pigmentation:

Another useful series is one of 420 adult males from Andalusia, representing the most brunet population in Spain, and the one which supposedly contains the most Arab and Berber blood.118 These Andalusians have a mean stature of 166.5 cm., approximately the same as that of the smaller Moroccan Bcrbers, the Kabyles, and the modern Egyptians. Their mean relative sitting height, 50.6, relates them to North African and Asiatic Mediterraneans, rather than to most Europeans. The rest of their bodily proportions follow the same relationship. Cranially and facially, they differ little from the Madrid series, except in the possession of a wider bigonial (104.5 mm.) which may perhaps be a North African heritage.119

The skin color of the Andalusians is light brown, corresponding to #15 to #18 on the von Luschan chart, in 80 per cent of cases, while only one man in six has a pinkish-white skin of the type so frequent among Ruffians. Sixty per cent have dark brown hair, 30 per cent black hair. The remaining 10 per cent show some evidence of blondism or of rufosity. Only one man out of 420 was truly blond. The hair is straight in half the series, wavy in a third, and curly in a sixth. Six men in the entire group have negroid, frizzly hair; a minor absorption of negro blood, dating from Moorish times, is evident. As a whole, however, Andalusians are free from negroid traits. As among most Mediterraneans, beard and body hair are not abundant.

Sixty per cent of Andalusians have pure brown eyes, of which the majority are dark brown, although light brown and mixed-brown irises occur. Mixed-light eyes comprise 30 per cent of the series, with a prev-alence of greenish-brown shades, while 10 per cent of the whole sample possesses bluish-gray eyes, on the gray rather than blue side. A ratio of 40 per cent of light or incipiently light eyes is higher than one expects to find among racially pure Mediterraneans

http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/11-15.htm

[Damião de Góis]

Yes i've read that before. Coon couldn't tell the diference between morocans and spaniards. I never got why :)

"Two widely observed racial characters serve to differentiate the Spaniards from most of the living inhabitants of Arabia and North Africa: hair color and nasal profile. " by Coon (http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/11-15.htm)


http://i36.tinypic.com/wi0h6w.jpg
http://i37.tinypic.com/f3b2gi.jpg

http://i36.tinypic.com/24odkzn.jpg

[The Black Prince]

Yes i've read that before. Coon couldn't tell the diference between morocans and spaniards. I never got why :)

"Two widely observed racial characters serve to differentiate the Spaniards from most of the living inhabitants of Arabia and North Africa: hair color and nasal profile. " by Coon (http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/11-15.htm)


And this is the complete text:

Two widely observed racial characters serve to differentiate the Spaniards from most of the living inhabitants of Arabia and North Africa: hair color and nasal profile. In Spain, as a whole, some 29 per cent of the male population has black hair, some 68 per cent dark brown, while traces of blondism are visible in 17 per cent.113
In most of North Africa and Arabia, the black hair is commoner than the dark brown. The nasal profiles of some 120,000 Spaniards are convex in 15 per cent of cases, straight in 72 per cent, and concave in 13 per cent. In Arabia and North Africa east of Morocco, the commonest profile form is usually convex, and coneaves are very rare. The prevalence of these two features. dark brown hair and a straight nasal profile, indicates that the bulk of the Spanish population is derived from the earlier Mediterranean In-vasions of Mesolithic and Neolithic date. The Spaniards are more like the most marginal and fully sedentary of the brunet Berber groups in North Africa than like the more recently settled transhumant ones or the Arabs.

Exactly, Coon is saying here that the that Spaniards are lighter than the Arabs of North-Africa. Which is a true thing don't you say?

[Damião de Góis]

So if it wasn't for the hair and nose they would be basically the same, including skin colour. Nope, i don't agree.

[The Black Prince]

So if it wasn't for the hair and nose they would be basically the same, including skin colour. Nope, i don't agree.

Two widely observed racial characters serve to differentiate the Spaniards from most of the living inhabitants of Arabia and North Africa: hair color and nasal profile

He only said 'most' would be the same.

Since he f.i. mentioned two other groups:


South of the Ghomara and again west of the Rif, lie the high mountain tribes of the Senhaja Sghir, including Taghzuth, famous for its craftsmen in metal and leather; these people speak a Senhajan dialect normally incomprehensible to Riffians, who can, on the other hand, understand Ghomaran. Both the Senhaja Sghir and Ghomara, however, are in recent years tending to lose their Berber speech in favor of Arabic, since all or nearly all are bilingual. The Senhaja Sghir are darker, as a rule, tan Riffians. A number are definitely negroid, whereas in the Rif negroid blood is confined to outsiders. Metrically the Senhaja Sghir are similar to the Riffians, but slightly smaller headed as a rule, and narrower jawed. There is among them a non-Ruffian, Mediterranean element, which shows itself in a convex nasal profile and a sloping forehead, and which is reminiscent of eastern Barbary and of points farther east.

...

The fourth of the great Moroccan .Berber groups, the Shluh, differs from the northern Moroccans in that they are rarely blond. Mixed and light eyes are reduced to the traditional Mediterranean 25 per cent; hair lighter than dark brown to 5 per cent, and beards of the same category to 25 per cent. Metrically they are fully Mediterranean, with a stature mean of 165 cm., smaller vault and face dimensions than the Riffians, and a mean cephalic index of 74.5. The total face height is 120 mm., the bigonial 100 mm. Individually they are mostly Mediterranean, of the straight-nosed, basic North African variety, and the chief deviation from this norm is in a negroid direction.

source: http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/11-14.htm

[Damião de Góis]

Only most? :)
I didn't get your point. I still don't agree with that sentence.

The funny thing about Coon is that he wrote a chapter about the people of Iberia without ever visiting the place. I read somewhere that he made the percentages of skin, eye and hair color from spanish soldiers that were stationed in Morocco while he was there studying the berbers. And he decided to sample an entire peninsula with those numbers. I don't take what he wrote very seriously.

[Falkata]

I´ve seen many riffians too, in fact many of them are immigrants in Spain. It´s true that they use to be lighter than the rest of moroccans and that negroid features are not common between them, but seriously, it´s really hard to think they are lighter than the iberians. I´ve never seen IRL a blond adult one and blue eyes are very hard to find too.

[The Black Prince]

Yups, as I said before, during the period these maps were made most of these ethnic groups still had there own territories. And according to these researches the Riffian Berbers and the Berbers of Kabyle had more lighter individuals as those from Andalusia.
I, and neither Coon never stated that Moroccans or Algerians are lighter. And when taking haircolour for these not Riffian/Kabyla into account they were darker. Nexto that some ethnic groups according to Coon were even deviating in a negroid direction.

So Spain on average was (and is) lighter than North-Africa on average.

Just to post some extremes (not impying all Kabyla are fair or light brunet.):

http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/berbers_2.jpg
Zenaga/Sanhaja tribe


http://www.cri.ensmp.fr/people/boucheba/kabylie/femme
http://athyenni-algeria.tayri.org/femme.jpg
Amazigh women from the region of Kabylia

Normal Kabyles:

http://i9.tinypic.com/52q776f.jpg

[Damião de Góis]

I, and neither Coon never stated that Moroccans or Algerians are lighter. And when taking haircolour for these not Riffian/Kabyla into account they were darker.

I know you didn't say that but apparentely Coon had some trouble telling North Africans and Spaniards apart judging by the quote i put here where he says that he tells them apart by looking at the nose and hair color. I think that is crazy.

[Amapola]

Gosh, that type of thing again? Ok The Black Prince, you are right, everybody knows that Moroccans are blonder than Spaniards. Actually even subsaharans are :D Period.

[The Black Prince]

Gosh, that type of thing again? Ok The Black Prince, you are right, everybody knows that Moroccans are blonder than Spaniards. Period.
Hell, I hated it as much as you that they started about it...:p

And for the last time.. Riffians are but a minority in Morocco so on average the Andalusians will be lighter. Capice..? ;)

[Amapola]

Hell, I hated it as much as you that they started about it...:p

And for the last time.. Riffians are but a minority in Morocco so on average the Andalusians will be lighter. Capice..? ;)

I know, I am kidding... :p anyway I never liked Coon, I would be craving for new modern studies on the matter.