Famine - Genocide in Ukraine 1932 - 1933

[National_Nord]

Backgrounder

In 1932-33 millions of Ukrainians died in the largest Famine of the 20th century. This Famine was not caused by a natural calamity such as drought or epidemic or pestilence. It was not the result of devastation or privation caused by a cataclysmic event such as war.

The Famine in Ukraine was engineered, orchestrated and directed from the Kremlin. It was implemented by Stalin and his comrades in order to complete Ukraine's subjugation to Moscow. Starvation became the tool and the Ukrainian farmers became the main victims.

This genocide had a double motive. First, it was necessary to destroy the Ukrainian farmers because they formed 80% of the Republic's population and were therefore, the backbone of the intelligentsia-led national revival. Second, the Ukrainian farmers stood in the way of the unbridled exploitation of agriculture which the regime intended to carry out for the sake of rapid industrialization.

"The nationality problem is by its essence a farmer problem," Stalin wrote.

Arrests, show trials, executions and deportations destroyed the Ukrainian intelligentsia, while the Ukrainian "kurkuli" or successful farmers were dispossessed and deported in cattle cars to Russia. Having thus eliminated the country's national and social elites, the regime could now more easily force the leaderless farmer masses into the collective farms.

Collectivization was largely completed in Soviet Ukraine by the time the Famine began to be implemented. In 1932 there was enough grain harvested to adequately feed the population. However, Moscow imposed draconian grain quotas on Ukraine which resulted in genocide.

Zealous Communist League members and armed troops were dispatched into Ukraine from Russia to guard the fields and warehouses. The troops entered every household, tore up floorboards in their search for buried grain, and confiscated whatever foodstuffs they came across. Resisting farmers were arrested and shot or exiled to Siberia. Theft of food, now Socialist State property, warranted a minimum of five years of imprisonment, or just as often, execution. Anyone caught picking up a few stalks of wheat risked being executed on the spot. The regime even went so far as to forbid people from naming the cause they were dying from.

The word "holod" (famine or hunger) was decreed a "counter-revolutionary rumour."

In December of 1932 the internal passport system was introduced and the Ukrainian-Russian border was sealed to prevent Ukrainians from escaping the genocidal famine.

"Food is a weapon," said Maxim Litvinov, the Soviet Commissar of Foreign Affairs.

The breadbasket of Europe became one vast graveyard.

As Victor Kravchenko, a former Soviet trade official put it, "on the battlefield men die quickly, they fight back, they are sustained by fellowship and a sense of duty." In Soviet Ukraine, he observed, people were "dying in solitude by slow degrees, dying hideously .... trapped and left to starve, each in his home, by a political decision made in a far-off capital around conference and banquet tables... The most terrifying sights were the little children with skeleton limbs dangling from balloon-like abdomens. Starvation had wiped every trace of youth from their faces, turning them into tortured gargoyles... Everywhere we found men and women lying prone, their faces and bellies bloated, their eyes utterly expressionless."

Untold suffering and agony prevailed, along with typhus and scurvy. Corpses piled up grotesquely next to streets, roadways, and fields, for the living no longer had the strength to bury the dead.

While the Famine was raging, Stalin was exporting Ukrainian grain to the West. When international relief organizations offered to assist the starving, the offer was rejected by the Soviet Government on the grounds that there was no famine in Ukraine and hence no need to aid its victims!

Many reporters in the West, particularly those who supported the Communist line and put their hopes in the Soviet Utopia, accepted this Soviet disinformation and the reports of mass starvation were dismissed as scare stories. In 1932 it was counter for Western politics to acknowledge this Genocide, since negotiations were underway to accept the Soviet Union into the League of Nations.

Numerous historians and commentators have called this Famine-Genocide an unprecedented tragedy in modern history. Even today, the Famine-Genocide remains one of the least understood events of this century; it has almost totally disappeared from the public consciousness. The victims deserve a place in history and in our memory. Canada became home to many famine survivors after the Second World War, and although this generation is passing away, their children still carry the memory of their parents' nightmare.

Awareness of this tragedy must not be limited to the Ukrainian community; the famine victims deserve to be honoured, along with victims of other genocides, in a Canadian Museum of Genocide.

http://faminegenocide.com/resources/backgrounder.html

[National_Nord]

Facts About the 1933 Famine-Genocide in Soviet Occupied Ukraine

1. Censuses

In late 1932 - precisely when the genocidal famine struck - the Central Statistical Bureau in Moscow ceased to publish demographic data.

The 1937 census was given top priority. The census director I. Kravel was awarded the Order of Lenin for his meticulous work. After the results of the 1937 census were submitted to the Government, the census was declared "subversive", its materials destroyed and the top census officials were shot for not finding enough people.

2. Harvest and Climatic Conditions

The "natural disaster" excuse to cover up the 1933 Famine-Genocide does not hold water. It was not caused by some natural calamity or crop failure:

The 1931 harvest was 18.3 million tons of grain.
The 1932 harvest was 14.6 million tons of grain.
The 1933 harvest was 22.3 million tons of grain.
The 1934 harvest was 12.3 million tons of grain.
In 1934 during the poorest harvest - a mere 12.3 - there was no massive famine because Stalin reduced the grain requisition quotas and even released grain from existing "state stockpiles" to feed the population.
The highest death rates were in the grain growing provinces of Poltava, Dnipropetrovsk, Kirovohrad and Odessa: usually 20-25%, although higher in many villages.

3. Laws and Decrees

The 7 August 1932 law drafted by Joseph Stalin on the protection of the socialist property stipulated the death penalty for "theft of socialist property". Ukrainian villagers were executed by firing squads for theft of a sack of wheat and in some cases even for two sheaves of corn or a husk of grain.
The 6 December 1932 decree stipulated a complete blockade of villages for allegedly sabotaging the grain procurement campaign - de facto sentencing their Ukrainian inhabitants to execution by starvation.
An unpublished decree signed by Molotov encouraged Russian peasants to settle into the empty or half-empty villages of "the free lands of Ukraine" [and North Caucasus also inhabited by Ukrainians and likewise devastated by the famine].
4. Means of Implementing Forced Collectivization and Draconian Grain Requisition Quotas

The All-Union Peoples Commissariat of Agriculture in Moscow initially mobilized some of its most reliable ‘25-thousanders' -Party members, majority of them Russians - and sent them to Ukraine to organize collective farms.
Further ‘thousanders,' the army, the secret police [GPU], the militia and armed brigades were sent into Ukrainian villages to force the farmers into collective farms and to supervise the Draconian grain expropriation and eventually the entire output of butter, corn, sugar beet, etc.
Local granaries in Ukraine held large stockpiles of ‘state reserves' for emergencies, such as war, but the raging famine did not qualify as an emergency.
5. Geography of the Famine

The 1933 Famine-Genocide was geographically focused for political ends. It stopped precisely at the Ukrainian-Russian ethnographic border.
The borders of Ukraine were strictly patrolled by the military to prevent starving Ukrainians from crossing into Russia in search of bread.
For example: The Kharkiv Province on the Ukrainian side was devastated while the contiguous Belgorod Province on the Russian side with similar climatic conditions and demographic profiles showed no evidence of starvation or any unusual mortality.
Armed GPU officers were also stationed to prevent starving Ukrainians from entering the zone near the Polish and Romanian borders. Those who tried to cross the Dnister River into Romania were shot.
6. Exports

The Soviet regime dumped 1.7 million tons of grain on the Western markets at the height of the Famine. It exported nearly a quarter of a ton of grain for every Ukrainian who starved to death.

7. Victims and Losses

At the height of the Famine Ukrainian villagers were dying at the rate of 25,000 per day or 1,000 per hour or 17 per minute.
By comparison the Allied soldiers died at the rate of 6,000 per day during the Battle of Verdun.
Among the children one in three perished as a consequence of collectivization and the famine.
According to dissident Soviet demographer M. Maksudov "no fewer than three million children born between 1932-1933 died of hunger."
80% of Ukrainian intellectuals were liquidated because they refused to collaborate in the extermination of their countrymen.
Out of about 240 Ukrainian authors 200 were liquidated or disappeared. Out of about 84 linguists 62 perished.
The Ukrainian population may have been reduced by as much as 25%.
8. Western Press Coverage

Foreign correspondents were "advised" by the press department of the Soviet Commissariat for Foreign Affairs to remain in Moscow and were de facto barred from visiting Ukraine.
Not a single Western newspaper or press agency protested publicly against the unprecedented confining of its correspondents in Moscow or bothered to investigate the reason for this extraordinary measure.
The majority of reporters feared losing their journalistic privileges and toed the line.
The only correspondents permitted into Ukraine were the likes of Walter Duranty of the New York Times who reported that there was no famine except for some "partial crop failures."
Star reporter Walter Duranty of the New York Times set the tone for most of the Western press coverage with authoritative denials of starvation and referred to the Famine as the "alleged ‘man-made' famine of 1933."
However, according to British Diplomatic Reports, Duranty off the record, conceded that "as many as 10 million" may have perished.
For his reporting Walter Duranty received the Pulitzer Prize for journalism. To this date the New York Times refuses to revoke the prize and still lists Duranty among its Pulitzer winners.

A number of intrepid reporters, such as William Henry Chamberlin, Harry Lang, Malcolm Muggeridge and Thomas Walker ignored the ban and reported on the Famine, substantiating their reports with photographs.
9. Collusion by Western Governments

Available archival evidence (such as reports sent in diplomatic pouches as well as coverage on the press by a few honest and courageous reporters who managed to penetrate into starving Ukraine) indicates that several Western governments (especially Great Britain, Canada and the United States) were well informed about the Famine-Genocide in Ukraine but chose to adopt a policy on non-interference in the internal affairs of a foreign sovereign state. Ironically, the United States recognized the Soviet Union in November, 1933.

Offers to aid the starving by numerous charitable organizations such as the International Red Cross, Save the Children Fund, the Vienna-based Interconfessional Relief Council and Ukrainian organizations in the West and Western Ukraine (occupied by Poland) were discouraged or blocked by their Governments.

10. Findings and Conclusions

The U.S. Congress 1988 Commission on the Ukraine famine in its "Investigation of the Ukraine Famine of 1932-1933" concluded that: JOSEPH STALIN AND THOSE AROUND HIM COMMITTED GENOCIDE AGAINST UKRAINIANS IN 1932-1933.

http://faminegenocide.com/resources/facts.html

[Wildland]

American Times Today
Lazar Moiseyevich Kaganovich (Kogan), of Jewish descent, was born in Kubany, near Kiev, Ukraine, in 1893. In 1911 he joined the Jewish-founded Communist Party and became involved with the Bolsheviks (Lower East Side New York Jews). Kaganovich took an active part in the 1917 takeover of Christian Russia by Communism and rose rapidly in the Party hierarchy.

From 1925 to 1928, he was first secretary of the party organization in Ukraine and by 1930 was a full member of the Politburo.

Kaganovich was one of a small group of Stalin's top sadists pushing for very high rates of collectivization after 1929. He became Stalin's butcher of Christian Russians during the late 1920s and early 1930s when the Kremlin (jews) launched its war against the kulaks (small landowners who were Christians) and implemented a ruthless policy of land collectivization. The resulting state-organized forced famine, was a planned genocide and killed 7,000,000 Ukrainians between 1932 and 1933, and inflicted enormous suffering on the Soviet Central Asian republic of Kazakhstan.

Josef Stalin (Dzhugashvili) altered census figures to hide the millions of famine deaths when the Ukraine and northern Caucasus region had an extremely poor harvest in 1932, just as Stalin was demanding heavy requisitions of grain to sell abroad to finance his industrialization program which was on top of enforced collective farming of 1929. Stalin is conservatively estimated to have been responsible for the murder and/or starvation of 40,000,000 Russians and Ukrainians during his reign of terror, while the total deaths resulting from the de-kulaklization and famine, by way of Kaganovich, can be conservatively estimated at about 14,500,000.

On any analysis, Kaganovich, was one of the worst mass murderers in history, and little wonder that during World War II large numbers of Ukrainians greeted the Germans as liberators, with many joining the Waffen-SS to keep Communism from enslaving all of Europe.

[Lenny]

The Famine in Ukraine was engineered, orchestrated and directed from the Kremlin. It was implemented by Stalin and his comrades in order to complete Ukraine's subjugation to Moscow.
From what I hear, if a Russian published such words today, he could face jail time.

For defaming Russia's Glorious Past(tm).:rolleyes2:

[National_Nord]

From what I hear, if a Russian published such words today, he could face jail time.

For defaming Russia's Glorious Past(tm).:rolleyes2:

The fact of the Famine-Genocide is not denied by official Russian historians.
The fact that the Ukrainian historical talk about death only in Ukraine, while the famine affected Povolzhye.

[Hors]

The fact of the Famine-Genocide is not denied by official Russian historians.

Name one mainstream Russian historian who buys the BS story about genocide.


The fact that the Ukrainian historical talk about death only in Ukraine, while the famine affected Povolzhye.

The so called "Ukrainian Famine" affectedmostly Russian populated regions of the Ukraine, Russian Middle Volga and Cnetral-Southern Russia, Northern Caucasus and Northern Kazakhastan. Majority of victims were Russian.

[National_Nord]

I think that we should recognize the tyrant Stalin's criminal against humanity, for the famine, collectivization. This recognition must be done sooner or later, it all depends on how soon we want to live in a civil civilized society ...

[Hors]

There have been hundreds, thousands of famines in Russia. Why do you want to put the blame on Stalin only? What's about all rulers of Russia beginning from Rurik?

And, speaking about Stalin's crimes against humanity, is your heart full of contrition because of 1937, when Stalin got rid of 95% of Communist Jews in the Soviet government?

Don't you think it was Stalin's policy, including collectivization, which enabled Russians to defeat Nazi Germany and 2/3 of Europe Allied with it?

[SwordoftheVistula]

And, speaking about Stalin's crimes against humanity, is your heart full of contrition because of 1937, when Stalin got rid of 95% of Communist Jews in the Soviet government?

He must've just replaced them with other jews then, because during WWII there were tons of them in the government, especially the NKVD, Ilya Ehrenberg and the aforementioned Kaganovich come to mind.


Don't you think it was Stalin's policy, including collectivization, which enabled Russians to defeat Nazi Germany and 2/3 of Europe Allied with it?

That's Mugabe logic. Stalin/Soviets killed more people and damaged the country far more than the Germans would have done if they had they defeated Stalin. If the Germans had won, the 'worst' Russia/Ukraine could expect is the same fate as other countries occupied by the Germans: Jews and other political opponents arrested and placed in prison camps, suspected saboteurs and insurgents arrested or killed ('terrorists' in the modern terms), and redirection of production towards the German war effort.

At any rate, the collectivization occurred well before any threat from Germany, beginning before the NSDAP led government was even elected.

[National_Nord]

There have been hundreds, thousands of famines in Russia. Why do you want to put the blame on Stalin only? What's about all rulers of Russia beginning from Rurik?

And, speaking about Stalin's crimes against humanity, is your heart full of contrition because of 1937, when Stalin got rid of 95% of Communist Jews in the Soviet government?

Don't you think it was Stalin's policy, including collectivization, which enabled Russians to defeat Nazi Germany and 2/3 of Europe Allied with it?

All responsibility lies with the government, which was against the Russians, Ukrainians, Belarus. In the power is de facto all led Stalin, a Jew by nationality. Later Stalin himself admitted that the collectivization destroyed the middle class and the peasantry were often subjected to repression, even the poorest peasants.

I intereresuyut Stalin is a crime against the Russian, Ukrainian, Belarusian people. So I have to say. Joseph Stalin, the Jews, the Law on Anti-Semitism in 1942, helped plan the Zionists to create the country of Israel.

Collectivisation not the cause of military success in World War II, as Jews tried to speak, to show the importance of an idea about the lives of non-Jews.

Why did Stalin's collectivization carried out in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, but not touching the property in Georgia, Armenia?That is the power of Stalin has great prospects for career growth of Georgians and Armenians.

Stalin was a puppet in the hands of the Zionists. :)

[Hors]

You have delusions of grandeur.

Stalin was not a Jew.
There was collectivization in Georgia and Armenia, as well as revolts against it and deportations of property owners to Central Asia.
Leadership of Soviet Russia/the USSR became majority Russian after the Stalin purges.

[Hors]

He must've just replaced them with other jews then,

But he hasn't.


because during WWII there were tons of them in the government, especially the NKVD,

You're wrong. Especially when it comes to NKVD.



Ilya Ehrenberg and the aforementioned Kaganovich come to mind.

Ehrenburg was a journalist. Kaganovich was the only prominent Jew in the government.


Stalin/Soviets killed more people and damaged the country far more than the Germans would have done if they had they defeated Stalin.

Only retards in Russia would buy your BS. Germans were going to exterminate/enslave the population of the USSR.



If the Germans had won, the 'worst' Russia/Ukraine could expect is the same fate as other countries occupied by the Germans: Jews and other political opponents arrested and placed in prison camps, suspected saboteurs and insurgents arrested or killed ('terrorists' in the modern terms), and redirection of production towards the German war effort.

Almost 20 million civilians died because of German aggression/under German occupation. Leningrad and Kharkov lost 1 million civilians each. And this genocide was intentional.



At any rate, the collectivization occurred well before any threat from Germany, beginning before the NSDAP led government was even elected.

It's beside the point. The country had to build up industry, to modernize itself. The collectivization was the only way.

[National_Nord]

You have delusions of grandeur.

Stalin was not a Jew.
There was collectivization in Georgia and Armenia, as well as revolts against it and deportations of property owners to Central Asia.
Leadership of Soviet Russia/the USSR became majority Russian after the Stalin purges.

In Georgia - shvili - Jews. Stalin was just a Jew, or was part Jew, but he has not practiced Judaism. Stalin had haplogroupp G, which is most prevalent among Jews. I think that Joseph Dzhugashvili (Stalin) was a descendant of Khazar Jews.

Only for some reason in Georgia after the large farms survived collectivization...

There is no need to repeat the Kremlin's propaganda.
It consists in the party in power?

[Hors]

In Georgia - shvili - Jews.

"Shvili" in Georgian is equivalent for "son" in Germanic languages or sufixes "-ov", "-ev" etc. in Slavic languages (meaning essentially the same, i.e. being a son of somebody).


Stalin was just a Jew, or was part Jew, but he has not practiced Judaism. Stalin had haplogroupp G, which is most prevalent among Jews. I think that Joseph Dzhugashvili (Stalin) was a descendant of Khazar Jews.

What you think is irrelevant. Supposedly Stalin's G2 is not associated with Jews.


Only for some reason in Georgia after the large farms survived collectivization...

You're delusional.


There is no need to repeat the Kremlin's propaganda.
It consists in the party in power?

:mmmm:

[National_Nord]

"Shvili" in Georgian is equivalent for "son" in Germanic languages or sufixes "-ov", "-ev" etc. in Slavic languages (meaning essentially the same, i.e. being a son of somebody).
:mmmm:

Already immediately after the October coup, Russia's population has a hunch that the protest by force of Russians, rebels against the king's autocracy, not taken advantage of by Russian and Jewish. (Please pay special attention to this ancient method of Jews - to take advantage of the desire of people seeking to overthrow an unjust government, because of him we still dwell in our next article !!!). The population of Russia has realized that the Jews used the Russian people and the protest came to power instead of the king of Romanov. By the end of 1917 in many parts of Russia began to resound the slogans: "Tips - without Jews."

And then, concerned Jews, headed by Vladimir Ulyanovyh (Lenin) to take punitive measures against the spread of anti-Jewish sentiment among the population. July 27, 1918 ANC issued a special law on anti-Semitism: "The Council of People's Commissars announces anti-Semitic movement risk for the cause of the working and peasant revolution." And in the end (according to Lunacharsky, Lenin is attributed himself): "Sovnarkom requires all Sovdepam take decisive action to curb anti-Semitic movement in the bud. Pogromschikov and leading pogromnuyu agitation is required to set out the law." Signed: Vl. Ulyanov (Lenin).

Thus, the foundation of the former Soviet power was a purely Jewish. On this foundation, and was built by the Soviet Union, which until the end of his days (until August 1991) was administered by Jews. After Vladimir Ulyanov (Lenin) Soviets took power in the hands of Jews of Georgian origin Joseph Dzhugashvili (Stalin). When Stalin, the Jews invented the myth that Stalin had allegedly anti-Semite. It was pure masquerade, because around the so-called "anti-Semites" Stalin worked some Jews: Molotov, Kaganovich, Voroshilov, Zinoviev, Kamenev and others

It should be noted that Stalin's purges carried out against respressii also Jews: Gregory (Гершель) Berry (Yehuda), Lavrenty Beria, Yezhov and other chiefs of all prisons, members of the gulag system (governance camps), the USSR, were also Jews. This is an indisputable historical fact.

The power of the Jews in the Soviet markedly diminished when Nikita Khrushchev, which had been overturned with the chairs of the Secretary-General of the CPSU Central Committee. It was when Khrushchev Jews, concerned about a small (!!!) loss of key positions in the USSR, issued a unique code of conduct of Jews in the USSR. This campaign document, called "Catechism for the Jews in the USSR" was issued in Tel Aviv in 1958.


Completion of the names on - shvili - a sign of Georgian Jews. I advise to talk to the Georgians on the Georgian Jews.

[Hors]

What?

[The Lawspeaker]

Completion of the names on - shvili - a sign of Georgian Jews. I advise to talk to the Georgians on the Georgian Jews.

- shvili means son of.

ebraelebi means Jews

[National_Nord]

- shvili means son of.

ebraelebi means Jews

In the Caucasus, a lot of the descendants of Khazar Jews.

The Jews are very skillfully adapted to any political regime of any people.

In Stalin's typical Jewish appearance - it is obvious.
Stalin was sincere posobnikolm Zionism and misanthrope against those who obstructed his cannibal designs.

Famine was a terrible phenomenon, characterized Stalin's hatred of the Zionists to white people.

[The Lawspeaker]

In the Caucasus, a lot of the descendants of Khazar Jews.

The Jews are very skillfully adapted to any political regime of any people.

In Stalin's typical Jewish appearance - it is obvious.
Stalin was sincere posobnikolm Zionism and misanthrope against those who obstructed his cannibal designs.

Famine was a terrible phenomenon, characterized Stalin's hatred of the Zionists to white people.
There is an awful lot that can be said about Stalin but he was no Jew. He was a mass-murdering tyrant, worse then Hitler, but he was not Jewish.
He was Ossetian and born in the town of Gori. His house still seems to exist although I do think that they should blow it sky-high.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Stalin_birth_house.JPG.jpg

[SwordoftheVistula]

Germans were going to exterminate/enslave the population of the USSR.

That didn't happen in any of the occupied territories. Once the fighting and insurgencies died down in France for example, most French people gave good reports of the German occupation. When given the chance, like the recent newsworthy character Ivan Demjanjuk, USSR residents often joined up with the Germans.

[Hors]

That didn't happen in any of the occupied territories.

How come ~20 million Soviet civilians died?

[Hors]

It is the established decision of the Fuhrer to erase Moscow and Leningrad in order to avoid that people stay in there who we will then have to feed in winter. The cities are to be destroyed by the air force. Tanks may not be used for this purpose. [...]


The northern theater of war is a good as cleaned up, even if you hear nothing about it. Now we first must let them fry in Petersburg, what are we to do with a city of 3 million that would only lie on our food supply wallet. Sentimentalities there will be none. [...]


[...] Today the decision of the Wehrmacht High Command arrived, according to which a capitulation may not be accepted. In a letter by the Army Group to the Army High Command it was thereupon asked if in such case the Russian troops cannot be lead into captivity. Should this not happen, the Russians will keep on fighting in desperation and this will lead to sacrifices on our side, probably heavy ones.[...]

Much more here:

http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/2458

[SwordoftheVistula]

Reading that whole thread, it is about the siege of Leningrad, and the Germans didn't want to waste troops in urban fighting taking the city, nor did they want to be stuck feeding the populace of the city.

[Hors]

nor did they want to be stuck feeding the populace of the city

in other words, they planned starvation of several millions inhabitants of Leningrad

[Hors]

That didn't happen in any of the occupied territories. Once the fighting and insurgencies died down in France for example, most French people gave good reports of the German occupation. When given the chance, like the recent newsworthy character Ivan Demjanjuk, USSR residents often joined up with the Germans.

You're either incredulously ignorant or unbelievably stupid. Or, perhaps, both.


Subject: Future of the City of Petersburg
II. The Führer is determined to remove the city of Petersburg from the face of the earth. After the defeat of Soviet Russia there can be no interest in the continued existence of this large urban area. Finland has likewise manifested no interest in the maintenance of the city immediately at its new border.
III. It is intended to encircle the city and level it to the ground by means of artillery bombardment using every caliber of weapon, and continual air bombardment.
IV. Requests for surrender resulting from the citys encirclement will be denied, since the problem of relocating and feeding the population cannot and should not be solved by us. In this war for our very existence, there can be no interest on our part in maintaining even a part of this large urban population. If necessary forcible removal to the eastern Russian area is to be carried out.



[]Hitler insisted that von Leeb draw the tightest kind of circle around Leningrad. Secretly, the Fhrer instructed von Leeb that the citys capitulation was not to be accepted. The population was to die with the doomed city. Random shelling of civilian objectives was authorized. If the populace tried to escape the iron ring, they were to be shot down.
No hint of this brutal decision was made public.[]


Thus the siege of Leningrad became the attempt to downright choke the city. Temporary considerations of the local commanders to deport the inhabitants behind the Soviet front quickly lost their meaning, as the German soldiers were not to be saddled with the heavy psychological burden resulting from the sight of such hunger march. The responsible in the army rear area were neither prepared, however, to take in and feed the people. Thus for the High Command of the 18th Army there remained only as last possibility the following: All must starve.
This decision for genocide apparently motivated by need or by food policy, however, was in complete consonance with the National Socialist Germanization policy. For Leningrad belonged to an area of the Soviet Union that in the future was to be settled by Germans under the name Ingermanland. The General Plan East, a gigantic resettlement program worked out under the supervision of Reichsfhrer SS Heinrich Himmler, still in 1942 foresaw that the urban population of that region would have sunk from 3.2 million in 1939 to 200,000 in postwar times. The difference of three million people who thus disappeared on paper corresponded to the number of Leningrads inhabitants at that time.
In the course of the autumn of 1941 the destruction of Leningrads population received priority before all military objectives. On 29 September 1941 Hitler made clear the following: Requests for surrender resulting from the situation of the city will be rejected, as the problem of housing and feeding the population cannot and should not be solved by us. In this war for existence, there is no interest on our part in maintaining even a part of this large urban population. And on 7 October 1941 Hitler again emphasized, that a capitulation of Leningrad or later of Moscow is not to be accepted, even if it were offered by the other side. [] No German soldier must therefore set foot in these cities.

[SwordoftheVistula]

in other words, they planned starvation of several millions inhabitants of Leningrad

No more than the USSR and its allies were already engaging in the 'planned starvation' of most of continental Europe. Germany simply didn't have any food to give the inhabitants of Leningrad, and they were incapable of providing their own food. Stalin was responsible for this situation, for both refusing to evacuate the civilian population from the front, and ordering the mining of cities and the fight to the death.

According to that link, they offered to allow the USSR and/or its allies to feed the populace of the city, and if that failed, to allow the population to leave the city for areas of Russia which were safely far from the front:

From your link:


what are we to do with a city of 3 million that would only lie on our food supply wallet.


The following is suggested...Insofar as possible they will be pushed of to inner Russia, the rest will necessarily spread across the land...lead those still alive to inner Russia


I imagine the following solution: We declare that due to the blockade by England we are not in conditions to additionally feed the population of this giant city. This especially in a land the food basis of which is so deteriorated due to Bolshevik mismanagement. We allow the women, children and old men to leave at will. England and the U.S.A. may send ships to taken them to another part of the world at their choice. The men able to fight and to work will be taken into captivity.
If England / U.S.A. refuse this proposal, they bear the responsibility for the demise of these people before world opinion. If they accept, we are rid of the problem and they have to expend additional freight room.


The Führer has decided anew that a capitulation of Leningrad or later of Moscow is not to be accepted even if it were to be offered by the enemy.
The moral justification for this measure lies clear before all the world. Just like in Kiev explosions with time fuses caused the greatest dangers for the troops, the same must be counted on in Moscow and Leningrad to an even greater extent. The Soviet radio itself has informed that Leningrad is sewn with mines and will be defended to the last man.
A sever risk of epidemics is to be expected.
No German soldier may this set foot in these cities. Whoever wants to leave the city in the direction of our lines is to be rejected by fire. Smaller gaps not sealed which allow for a streaming out of the population to inner Russia are thus only to be welcomed. Also for the other cities the principle applies that prior to being taken they must be worn down by artillery fire and air attacks and the population is to be induced into fleeing them. It is not supportable to risk the lives of German soldiers for the salvation of Russian cities from the danger of fire or to feed their population at the expense of the German homeland.


He doubted, however, whether they would keep the nerve to shoot again and again on women and children and defenseless elder men in case of repeated breakouts. It is worth noticing his utterance that he was not afraid of the military situation on the whole, which especially at his wing near Uritzk is always tense, but that the situation in regard to the civilian population always caused fear. This, he said, was not the case only with him, but also down to troop level. The troops fully understood that the millions of people encircled in Leningrad could not be fed by us without this having a negative impact on the food situation in our own country.


The combat area, both at the encirclement ring of Leningrad and in the coastal area to the south of Kronstadt is currently being evacuated of the civilian population still living there. This is necessary because the civilian population can no longer be fed there. The removal is carried out by each army corps in such a way that the civilian population is taken to the army rear area and there spread throughout the peasant villages. Nevertheless a great part of the civilian population has departed for the south on its own in order to find new shelter and means of subsistence.


When the Red troops in the area around Leningrad and Kronstadt have surrendered, delivered their weapons and been led into captivity, the Supreme Commander see no more reason for keeping up the encirclement of the city.



When the Red troops in the area around Leningrad and Kronstadt have surrendered, delivered their weapons and been led into captivity, the Supreme Commander see no more reason for keeping up the encirclement of the city.

[Hors]

Germany simply didn't have any food to give the inhabitants of Leningrad

Sure, as all the food Germany confiscated on the occupied territory of the USSR belonged to the Germanic Master Race.


Stalin was responsible for this situation, for both refusing to evacuate the civilian population from the front, and ordering the mining of cities and the fight to the death.

Inhabitants of Leningrad have been evacuated via the Ice road, which was constantly attacked by Luftwaffe.


According to that link, they offered to allow the USSR and/or its allies to feed the populace of the city, and if that failed, to allow the population to leave the city for areas of Russia which were safely far from the front:

Evident BS. Nothing of the kind was offered. It's just a figment of your imagination.


Hitler insisted that von Leeb draw the tightest kind of circle around Leningrad. Secretly, the Fhrer instructed von Leeb that the citys capitulation was not to be accepted. The population was to die with the doomed city. Random shelling of civilian objectives was authorized. If the populace tried to escape the iron ring, they were to be shot down.

[Hors]

http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FCEH%2FCEH18_01%2FS09607773080 04827a.pdf&code=9394da46c45e6b52b1a15cd526574854

In the months leading up to ‘Operation Barbarossa’, the economic experts in the Office of the Four-Year Plan were charged with preparing the economic exploitation of future occupied territories in the east.4 Their calculations included that, in order to feed the invading army and to extract agricultural resources for Germany, large areas of the Soviet Union would be subjected to famine and millions of Soviet citizens would starve to death.

...

In the eyes of the economic planners in the office of the Four-Year Plan, the
invasion of the Soviet Union and the acquisition of agricultural products would
solve the problem of limited food resources at home. In order to overcome initial
hesitations over how the war would actually affect agricultural production, a plan
needed to be drawn up with instructions as to how exploitation would proceed,
and over the ensuing months the state secretaries designed such a plan. The Soviet
Union was divided into two zones with regard to food production – the so-called
deficit zone (the forests of Belarus and northern and central Russia) and the surplus
zone (the Ukraine, southern Russia and the Caucasus region). In order to extract a
maximum of food, the deficit zone had to be sealed off and left to itself. According to
the Russia expert Backe, the Soviet population had grown too fast and the industrial
urban centres were unable to support themselves. Under German occupation, these
areas would be left to their own fate, while agricultural produce could be extracted
from the surplus zone to provide food for the Greater German Reich. Here lies
the foundation for what historians have labelled Backe’s Hungerpolitik or ‘starvation
policy’.

...

On 16 June a final document appeared to be distributed as the official guidelines
for the economic exploitation.88 It reiterated the provisioning of the German army off
the land, and the necessity of taking as much as possible of the agricultural produce
and sending it to Germany. The starvation plan had become official policy.

...

There is no question that economic exploitation was a crucial factor in the
war against the Soviet Union. Backe had formulated a policy that meant death
by starvation for millions of Soviets.

[Loki]

Hitler insisted that von Leeb draw the tightest kind of circle around Leningrad. Secretly, the Fhrer instructed von Leeb that the citys capitulation was not to be accepted. The population was to die with the doomed city. Random shelling of civilian objectives was authorized. If the populace tried to escape the iron ring, they were to be shot down.


What a sick bastard Hitler was. :mad:

[The Lawspeaker]

What a sick bastard Hitler was. :mad:
Do you think Stalin was any better ?

[Loki]

Do you think Stalin was any better ?

I doubt it, but you can ask Hors for some expert historical insight into Stalin. ;)

[The Lawspeaker]

I doubt it, but you can ask Hors for some expert historical insight into Stalin. ;)
Yes right. LOL
The Russian crimes were just as abhorrent as the ones the Germans committed.

[Loki]

Yes right. LOL
The Russian crimes were just as abhorrent as the ones the Germans committed.

Well, if numbers mean anything ... [mostly] Germans killed more than 10 million Russian civilians, while only 1.5 million German civilians died ... by the hand of all armies.

[The Lawspeaker]

Well, if numbers mean anything ... [mostly] Germans killed more than 10 million Russian civilians, while only 1.5 million German civilians died ... by the hand of all armies.
I don't know where you got your data from but the German numbers are higher--- and 12/16 million Germans were expelled. 5 million Germans girls and women (some as young as 10/11 and as old as 80) were raped by the Russians alone.

All the honor that the Russians got on the field of battle- they wasted with their atrocities.

[Hors]

I don't know where you got your data from but the German numbers are higher

Post them.



and 12/16 million Germans were expelled

Having planned extermination and/or deportation of population of most of Eastern Europe, they and their supporters are the last ones to make such complaints.


5 million Germans girls and women (some as young as 10/11 and as old as 80) were raped by the Russians alone.

You're wrong. It was 50 millions, and the number includes those dug out from the graves...

[RoyBatty]

I think that we should recognize the tyrant Stalin's criminal against humanity, for the famine, collectivization. This recognition must be done sooner or later, it all depends on how soon we want to live in a civil civilized society ...

The first things one should recognise when dealing with this type of subject matter is the source and location of this particular version of events.

In this case:


Famine-Genocide Commemorative Committee
Ukrainian Canadian Congress
Toronto Branch
© November 2002


In other words, it was written by an Anglo Chapter of the Ukrainian Nazi Party. Naturally they have an interest in revising history and presenting an alternate reality of events. It also happens to fit in nicely with the Anglo / EU agenda of turning Slav against Slav by promoting retributions, conflict and disputes amongst them. It's classic Roman "divide and rule" tactics. That's how they gain power and influence and control over regions.

There was no planned "genocide" against either Ukrainians or Russians, Kazakhs or others. People died but this was the result of poor planning, poor reporting by local commissars about conditions and available food supplies, incompetence and a collectivisation process that got out of hand. Mismanagement on an epic scale in other words.

While it certainly was a human tragedy for people across the Soviet Union (ie it's not an exclusively Ukrainian issue) and Stalin, as leader of the USSR certainly deserves part of the blame for these failures it's incorrect to put it down to the simplistic Anglo and Ukrainian Nazi propaganda that "Stalin and the Russians" were following some kind of planned extermination policy.

The world's top criminals (Anglo ruling elites, Zionists, Nazis) are very adept at "projecting" their behaviour and crimes and accusing others of it. The Nazis had an extermination policy and practice in place for a number of groups living in Europe. All they are doing now is to conveniently try to divert attention from their own crimes by scapegoating their enemies.

[RoyBatty]

That didn't happen in any of the occupied territories. Once the fighting and insurgencies died down in France for example, most French people gave good reports of the German occupation.

Despite what Hollywood and Spielberg teaches us, the war in much of Western Europe was a sideshow to the main event. Nothing much really happened. The real war was in the Soviet Union. The Europeans were only to happy to sit back and enjoy sitting out WW2 until it's conclusion. Of course there were some "inconveniences" but that's about it. Epic destruction and annihilation took place mostly elsewhere.

German tactics in Eastern Europe were vastly different to anything they did in the Western part which they occupied, held and policed only while rounding up the occasional untermensch for "processing" elsewhere. The Western Euros politely surrendered with such speed and efficiency that there was no need to wage much war there. Capturing Western Europe wasn't really the Nazis' main objective either. They were forced into this by the French and Anglos interference in their Eastward expansion plans, aka "Plan Ost".

The Germans (backed up by their trusty Baltic, Ukrainian and some Western European legions) carried out genocide campaigns in parts of the the Soviet Union they occupied, particularly on the territory of what is today known as Belarus. About 25% of the Belarussian population was annihilated during World War 2. One favourite method of the Ukrainians / Baltics was to herd Belarussian peasants and "undesireables" into farmhouses and barns and to torch them.

[SwordoftheVistula]

Still nobody has any idea where the Germans were supposed to get the food to feed the denizens of Leningrad, or why it would be a good idea to unleash 3 million potential troublemakers into their rear lines. Maybe hire Jesus to create loaves and fishes out of thin air?

Germany treated the western European countries well, and most of the eastern ones as well, so if something else happened in Russia or Belarus, it obviously was something they did to create such a different treatment. Most of it seems overblown, and recycled WWII propaganda anyways.



http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/stalin.htm

Joseph Stalin, leader of the Soviet Union, set in motion events designed to cause a famine in the Ukraine to destroy the people there seeking independence from his rule. As a result, an estimated 7,000,000 persons perished in this farming area, known as the breadbasket of Europe, with the people deprived of the food they had grown with their own hands.

The Ukrainian independence movement actually predated the Stalin era. Ukraine, which measures about the size of France, had been under the domination of the Imperial Czars of Russia for 200 years. With the collapse of the Czarist rule in March 1917, it seemed the long-awaited opportunity for independence had finally arrived. Optimistic Ukrainians declared their country to be an independent People's Republic and re-established the ancient capital city of Kiev as the seat of government.

However, their new-found freedom was short-lived. By the end of 1917, Vladimir Lenin, the first leader of the Soviet Union, sought to reclaim all of the areas formerly controlled by the Czars, especially the fertile Ukraine. As a result, four years of chaos and conflict followed in which Ukrainian national troops fought against Lenin's Red Army, and also against Russia's White Army (troops still loyal to the Czar) as well as other invading forces including the Germans and Poles.

By 1921, the battles ended with a Soviet victory while the western part of the Ukraine was divided-up among Poland, Romania, and Czechoslovakia. The Soviets immediately began shipping out huge amounts of grain to feed the hungry people of Moscow and other big Russian cities. Coincidentally, a drought occurred in the Ukraine, resulting in widespread starvation and a surge of popular resentment against Lenin and the Soviets.

To lessen the deepening resentment, Lenin relaxed his grip on the country, stopped taking out so much grain, and even encouraged a free-market exchange of goods. This breath of fresh air renewed the people's interest in independence and resulted in a national revival movement celebrating their unique folk customs, language, poetry, music, arts, and Ukrainian orthodox religion.

But when Lenin died in 1924, he was succeeded by Joseph Stalin, one of the most ruthless humans ever to hold power. To Stalin, the burgeoning national revival movement and continuing loss of Soviet influence in the Ukraine was completely unacceptable. To crush the people's free spirit, he began to employ the same methods he had successfully used within the Soviet Union. Thus, beginning in 1929, over 5,000 Ukrainian scholars, scientists, cultural and religious leaders were arrested after being falsely accused of plotting an armed revolt. Those arrested were either shot without a trial or deported to prison camps in remote areas of Russia.

Stalin also imposed the Soviet system of land management known as collectivization. This resulted in the seizure of all privately owned farmlands and livestock, in a country where 80 percent of the people were traditional village farmers. Among those farmers, were a class of people called Kulaks by the Communists. They were formerly wealthy farmers that had owned 24 or more acres, or had employed farm workers. Stalin believed any future insurrection would be led by the Kulaks, thus he proclaimed a policy aimed at "liquidating the Kulaks as a class."

Declared "enemies of the people," the Kulaks were left homeless and without a single possession as everything was taken from them, even their pots and pans. It was also forbidden by law for anyone to aid dispossessed Kulak families. Some researchers estimate that ten million persons were thrown out of their homes, put on railroad box cars and deported to "special settlements" in the wilderness of Siberia during this era, with up to a third of them perishing amid the frigid living conditions. Men and older boys, along with childless women and unmarried girls, also became slave-workers in Soviet-run mines and big industrial projects.

Back in the Ukraine, once-proud village farmers were by now reduced to the level of rural factory workers on large collective farms. Anyone refusing to participate in the compulsory collectivization system was simply denounced as a Kulak and deported.

A propaganda campaign was started utilizing eager young Communist activists who spread out among the country folk attempting to shore up the people's support for the Soviet regime. However, their attempts failed. Despite the propaganda, ongoing coercion and threats, the people continued to resist through acts of rebellion and outright sabotage. They burned their own homes rather than surrender them. They took back their property, tools and farm animals from the collectives, harassed and even assassinated local Soviet authorities. This ultimately put them in direct conflict with the power and authority of Joseph Stalin.

Soviet troops and secret police were rushed in to put down the rebellion. They confronted rowdy farmers by firing warning shots above their heads. In some cases, however, they fired directly at the people. Stalin's secret police (GPU, predecessor of the KGB) also went to work waging a campaign of terror designed to break the people's will. GPU squads systematically attacked and killed uncooperative farmers.

But the resistance continued. The people simply refused to become cogs in the Soviet farm machine and remained stubbornly determined to return to their pre-Soviet farming lifestyle. Some refused to work at all, leaving the wheat and oats to rot in unharvested fields. Once again, they were placing themselves in conflict with Stalin.

In Moscow, Stalin responded to their unyielding defiance by dictating a policy that would deliberately cause mass starvation and result in the deaths of millions.

By mid 1932, nearly 75 percent of the farms in the Ukraine had been forcibly collectivized. On Stalin's orders, mandatory quotas of foodstuffs to be shipped out to the Soviet Union were drastically increased in August, October and again in January 1933, until there was simply no food remaining to feed the people of the Ukraine.

Much of the hugely abundant wheat crop harvested by the Ukrainians that year was dumped on the foreign market to generate cash to aid Stalin's Five Year Plan for the modernization of the Soviet Union and also to help finance his massive military buildup. If the wheat had remained in the Ukraine, it was estimated to have been enough to feed all of the people there for up to two years.

Ukrainian Communists urgently appealed to Moscow for a reduction in the grain quotas and also asked for emergency food aid. Stalin responded by denouncing them and rushed in over 100,000 fiercely loyal Russian soldiers to purge the Ukrainian Communist Party. The Soviets then sealed off the borders of the Ukraine, preventing any food from entering, in effect turning the country into a gigantic concentration camp. Soviet police troops inside the Ukraine also went house to house seizing any stored up food, leaving farm families without a morsel. All food was considered to be the "sacred" property of the State. Anyone caught stealing State property, even an ear of corn or stubble of wheat, could be shot or imprisoned for not less than ten years.

Starvation quickly ensued throughout the Ukraine, with the most vulnerable, children and the elderly, first feeling the effects of malnutrition. The once-smiling young faces of children vanished forever amid the constant pain of hunger. It gnawed away at their bellies, which became grossly swollen, while their arms and legs became like sticks as they slowly starved to death.

Mothers in the countryside sometimes tossed their emaciated children onto passing railroad cars traveling toward cities such as Kiev in the hope someone there would take pity. But in the cities, children and adults who had already flocked there from the countryside were dropping dead in the streets, with their bodies carted away in horse-drawn wagons to be dumped in mass graves. Occasionally, people lying on the sidewalk who were thought to be dead, but were actually still alive, were also carted away and buried.

While police and Communist Party officials remained quite well fed, desperate Ukrainians ate leaves off bushes and trees, killed dogs, cats, frogs, mice and birds then cooked them. Others, gone mad with hunger, resorted to cannibalism, with parents sometimes even eating their own children.

Meanwhile, nearby Soviet-controlled granaries were said to be bursting at the seams from huge stocks of 'reserve' grain, which had not yet been shipped out of the Ukraine. In some locations, grain and potatoes were piled in the open, protected by barbed wire and armed GPU guards who shot down anyone attempting to take the food. Farm animals, considered necessary for production, were allowed to be fed, while the people living among them had absolutely nothing to eat.

By the spring of 1933, the height of the famine, an estimated 25,000 persons died every day in the Ukraine. Entire villages were perishing. In Europe, America and Canada, persons of Ukrainian descent and others responded to news reports of the famine by sending in food supplies. But Soviet authorities halted all food shipments at the border. It was the official policy of the Soviet Union to deny the existence of a famine and thus to refuse any outside assistance. Anyone claiming that there was in fact a famine was accused of spreading anti-Soviet propaganda. Inside the Soviet Union, a person could be arrested for even using the word 'famine' or 'hunger' or 'starvation' in a sentence.

The Soviets bolstered their famine denial by duping members of the foreign press and international celebrities through carefully staged photo opportunities in the Soviet Union and the Ukraine. The writer George Bernard Shaw, along with a group of British socialites, visited the Soviet Union and came away with a favorable impression which he disseminated to the world. Former French Premier Edouard Herriot was given a five-day stage-managed tour of the Ukraine, viewing spruced-up streets in Kiev and inspecting a 'model' collective farm. He also came away with a favorable impression and even declared there was indeed no famine.

Back in Moscow, six British engineers working in the Soviet Union were arrested and charged with sabotage, espionage and bribery, and threatened with the death penalty. The sensational show trial that followed was actually a cynical ruse to deflect the attention of foreign journalists from the famine. Journalists were warned they would be shut out of the trial completely if they wrote news stories about the famine. Most of the foreign press corp yielded to the Soviet demand and either didn't cover the famine or wrote stories sympathetic to the official Soviet propaganda line that it didn't exist. Among those was Pulitzer Prize winning reporter Walter Duranty of the New York Times who sent one dispatch stating "...all talk of famine now is ridiculous."

Outside the Soviet Union, governments of the West adopted a passive attitude toward the famine, although most of them had become aware of the true suffering in the Ukraine through confidential diplomatic channels. In November 1933, the United States, under its new president, Franklin D. Roosevelt, even chose to formally recognized Stalin's Communist government and also negotiated a sweeping new trade agreement. The following year, the pattern of denial in the West culminated with the admission of the Soviet Union into the League of Nations.

Stalin's Five Year Plan for the modernization of the Soviet Union depended largely on the purchase of massive amounts of manufactured goods and technology from Western nations. Those nations were unwilling to disrupt lucrative trade agreements with the Soviet Union in order to pursue the matter of the famine.

By the end of 1933, nearly 25 percent of the population of the Ukraine, including three million children, had perished. The Kulaks as a class were destroyed and an entire nation of village farmers had been laid low. With his immediate objectives now achieved, Stalin allowed food distribution to resume inside the Ukraine and the famine subsided. However, political persecutions and further round-ups of 'enemies' continued unchecked in the years following the famine, interrupted only in June 1941 when Nazi troops stormed into the country.

[Hors]

Still nobody has any idea where the Germans were supposed to get the food to feed the denizens of Leningrad,

In the same place where Russians got it when they drove the murderous German armies away from Leningrad and stopped German orchestrated genocidal famine there...


or why it would be a good idea to unleash 3 million potential troublemakers into their rear lines

You mean the rear lines where 50 million other "troublemakers" (i.e. the people whom Germans were depriving of their food) resided?


Maybe hire Jesus to create loaves and fishes out of thin air?

Maybe stop robbing occupied territories and enslaving local population?


Germany treated the western European countries well, and most of the eastern ones as well, so if something else happened in Russia or Belarus, it obviously was something they did to create such a different treatment.

Of course, that's what I was talking about. The "something" in question was that they were occupying German Lebensraum and, being lazy bastards, had to serve to the Germanic Master Race in forced labor camps and elsewhere.

[SwordoftheVistula]

In the same place where Russians got it when they drove the murderous German armies away from Leningrad and stopped German orchestrated genocidal famine there...

Oh, you mean stealing it from the Ukrainians and forcing a true genocidal famine on them.




Of course, that's what I was talking about. The "something" in question was that they were occupying German Lebensraum and, being lazy bastards, had to serve to the Germanic Master Race in forced labor camps and elsewhere.

Didn't happen anywhere else, even the French who occupied Elsass-Lothringen, except the jews. The common thread amongst those who were given ill treatment by the Germans was loyalty to Bolshevism, a tyrannical ideology which threatened to take over Europe, and largely succeeded.

[Hors]

Oh, you mean stealing it from the Ukrainians and forcing a true genocidal famine on them.

Stop bullshitting people. Germans have confiscated food everywhere in the USSR to supply the Wehrmach and German civilians back home. See above.


Didn't happen anywhere else, even the French who occupied Elsass-Lothringen, except the jews. The common thread amongst those who were given ill treatment by the Germans was loyalty to Bolshevism, a tyrannical ideology which threatened to take over Europe, and largely succeeded.

What kind of argument is it? Is it an argument or what? Whatever it is, I don't give a flying fuck either it happened or not elsewhere, or what was the reason for Germans to exterminate up to 20 million Soviet civilians.

[Wildland]

There have been hundreds, thousands of famines in Russia. Why do you want to put the blame on Stalin only? What's about all rulers of Russia beginning from Rurik?

And, speaking about Stalin's crimes against humanity, is your heart full of contrition because of 1937, when Stalin got rid of 95% of Communist Jews in the Soviet government?

Don't you think it was Stalin's policy, including collectivization, which enabled Russians to defeat Nazi Germany and 2/3 of Europe Allied with it?

And the reason for that?
Kissing up to NS Germany both for diplomatic reasons and the reasons that German caricature drawer where exposing the Jewish takeover over the Russian people.
The reason also they got rid of the Jewish foreign minister and replaced him with Molotov, as Germany would never allow to make diplomacy with a Jew.

[RoyBatty]

Paulo di Canio, Lazio legend :D :thumb001:

[SwordoftheVistula]

There was starvation and mass death of Soviet civilians before, during, and after the war. In Germany and German-occupied territories, only during and immediately after the war.

As to the original topic, the genocide of several million Ukrainians, a death toll larger than the 'official' death toll of the civilian deaths known as 'The Holocaust', the Germans can only responsible if the reasoning involves a time machine as the genocide occurred before the nazis were voted into power (because the country saw them as the only alternatives to the communists).

http://principality-of-sealand.eu/bild/reabild04120603.jpg

[Hors]

There was starvation and mass death of Soviet civilians before, during, and after the war.

Starvaton? Yes. But it were Germans who planned and (partially) implemented genocide.



the genocide of several million Ukrainians

I wonder, why you disregard the Russian victims? Just not to make the usage of the word "genocide" awkward?