The Greek National Costume

[poiuytrewq0987]

...is actually Albanian. Why steal from Albos? Unless you guys are Albos in disguise? :D

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Albanian_fustanella.jpg

[poiuytrewq0987]

The only difference I can notice is the fez.

http://www.michaelcreasy.com/photos/greece/009%20Greek%20Parliament%20Guards.jpg

[iNird]

Well the Greek ones tend to be shorter...very Catholic school girl like.

:D

But enough with your troll threads.

:coffee:

PS:

That's one manly mustache in the first pic. I'm jealous.

[Methmatician]

The only difference I can notice is the fez.


The Fez was originally Greek. So that's one thing that Albanians took from Greeks :D

[Loki]

Dušan, you just wait until dandelion shows up ... she'll kick your ass :coffee:

[poiuytrewq0987]

The Fez was originally Greek. So that's one thing that Albanians took from Greeks :D

The fez was originally Greek? :confused: As far as I know it originated from the city of Fez in Morocco and the Ottomans later popularized it.

[Queen B]

1) we were wearing ''skirts'' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiton_%28costume%29) since ancient years,

2) Yes, fustanella was worn by Albanians, but archeological evidence showed that Fustanella was already common in Greece at least since 12th century, meaning, before the arival of Albanians in Greece.

[The Lawspeaker]

Hmm so that would mean that the Greeks (or at least the Athenians) were not just boy-lovers* but also cross-dressers. And that is supposedly the civilisation that gave birth to Western civilisation. I shudder to think...


Disclaimer: I am merely trolling in a troll thread and taking the piss. Don't take it seriously. :D

(Quote from the film 300):

Leonidas: Submission. Well, that's a bit of a problem. See, rumour has it that the Athenians have already turned you down. And if those philosophers and... boy-lovers have found that kind of nerve—
Theron: We must be diplomatic -.
Leonidas: (cutting him off) And of course Spartans... have their reputation to consider.

[Ushtari]

Greeks adopted it from Albanians

[poiuytrewq0987]

1) we were wearing ''skirts'' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiton_%28costume%29) since ancient years,

2) Yes, fustanella was worn by Albanians, but archeological evidence showed that Fustanella was already common in Greece at least since 12th century, meaning, before the arival of Albanians in Greece.

I really doubt the Greeks of 19th century knew of a 12th century archaelogical evidence of the fustanella... more rather the Greeks decided to make it their national costume after seeing so many Albanians wear it in Attica. :wink

[Rron]

1) we were wearing ''skirts'' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiton_%28costume%29) since ancient years,

2) Yes, fustanella was worn by Albanians, but archeological evidence showed that Fustanella was already common in Greece at least since 12th century, meaning, before the arival of Albanians in Greece.

2
Fustanella is thought to have been originally a southern Albanian outfit of Tosks, which was introduced in Greece, during the Ottoman Occupation.


'' James P. Verinis, "Spiridon Loues, the Modern Foustanéla, and the Symbolic Power of Pallikariá at the 1896 Olympic Games", Journal of Modern Greek Studies 23:1 (May 2005), pp. 139-175.''

[Dacul]

It is of celtic ancestry I think,but I doubt albanians or greeks will want to admit it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fustanella#Name_in_various_languages

[Rron]

It is of celtic ancestry I think,but I doubt albanians or greeks will want to admit it.
No


inhabitants in several regions of the country wearing fustanellas in the past have lead many researchers and historians to the conclusion of an Illyrian origin of fustanella, with Albanians having inherited fustanella from Illyrians

''Arthur Evans, J. Wilkes, p.126, Ancient Illyria: an archaeological exploration ISBN 1845111672''

[Queen B]

I really doubt the Greeks of 19th century knew of a 12th century archaelogical evidence of the fustanella... more rather the Greeks decided to make it their national costume after seeing so many Albanians wear it in Attica. :wink

You doubt it because you close your eyes and think that Greeks died in 12th Century and resurected in 19th century :D

There is a thing called continuity ;)

[poiuytrewq0987]

You doubt it because you close your eyes and think that Greeks died in 12th Century and resurected in 19th century :D

There is a thing called continuity ;)

So, are you claiming the Greeks of 19th century have a 10,000 year memory? :confused: Sorry but no... it's quite apparent the fustanella was only popularly used by Albanians and the Greeks of 19th century decided to make the fustanella their national costume. Show us evidence that says the fustanella was not an Albanian creation, and that it was used by Greece inhabitants for centuries. The Chiton you showed had absolutely nothing in relation with the modern fustanella which is being used by modern Greeks. The Greeks at the time probably didn't even know about the Chiton otherwise they might have adopted that as their national dress instead of the fustanella...

[Ushtari]

The Fustanella is a product of theft. The Greek state snatched the national dress of the Arvanites and established it as a military uniform copying the English.
Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=i6CmNSM290wC&pg=PA150&dq=fustanella&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5jilT4jBHbPU4QSfn6WsCQ&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=fustanella&f=false)

[Rron]

One claim of an ancient link to the modern fustanella involves an ancient statue found in the outskirts of Epidamnus in Illyria(modern Durrës, Albania). The region surrounding Epidamnus was inhabited by the Illyrian tribe of the Taulanti.
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/7510/fusgurdr6jz.jpg


Another object which is related to the fustanella was found in Albania in the modern Korçë region, which was inhabited by Illyrian tribes

''John Wilkes, The Illyrians, pg.45-47, ISBN 0631198075''

[Duke]

Its an Albo dress...

On the other hand Illyrian dress was popularly known as dalmatika( since Rome renamed geographical region Illyricum as Dalmatia at that time), and it actually survived, since it was adopted as official dress of catholic bishops in 3rd century AD

http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/images/5/57/Clothes_-_Dalmatika_Kausia.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1b/Dalmatic.jpg/150px-Dalmatic.jpg

[Dacul]

No



''Arthur Evans, J. Wilkes, p.126, Ancient Illyria: an archaeological exploration ISBN 1845111672''
Ya I know some albanians theory,celts took kilt from ilyrians,which are actually albanians,so ye! celts took kilt from albanians!
Lol.

[Duke]

Ya I know some albanians theory,celts took kilt from ilyrians,which are actually albanians,so ye! celts took kilt from albanians!
Lol.

actually both of you are wrong, that dress came from same general place from where Fez came from.

one of the first results that popped up

http://libweb5.princeton.edu/visual_materials/maps/websites/africa/mollien/mollien1.jpg

[Rron]

Ya I know some albanians theory,celts took kilt from ilyrians,which are actually albanians,so ye! celts took kilt from albanians!
Lol.
Instead of ridiculing yourself trying to lie like your copatriots and deviate discussion why you dont try to prove those quotes otherwise, was J Wilkes Albanian you ignorant .

[Aces High]

I like the Greek version better,the Albanians have ladders in their tights and they dont even cover their bums which is very off putting to a tourist.
I suppose they look good from the front but the Greeks seem to be a bit more polished.




Then again i am biased as Greece after Italy is my favourite European country.

[Duke]

Instead of ridiculing yourself trying to lie like your copatriots and deviate discussion why you dont try to prove those quotes otherwise, was J Wilkes Albanian you ignorant .

J Wilkes was comparing Dalmatika to albo dress, while of course they look nothing alike.
Not even that, but same dalmatika on that sculpt that was wore back then, is still a dress for catholic priests in unchanged shape.

[Duke]

I like the Greek version better,the Albanians have ladders in their tights and they dont even cover their bums which is very off putting to a tourist.
I suppose they look good from the front but the Greeks seem to be a bit more polished.




Then again i am biased as Greece after Italy is my favourite European country.

Greeks still took it from albos

[Aces High]

Greeks still took it from albos

We took the St Georges cross from the Genovsi but made it into an icon.;)

[Duke]

We took the St Georges cross from the Genovsi but made it into an icon.;)


But you are not arguing it was originally English symbol :cool:

[Queen B]

So, are you claiming the Greeks of 19th century have a 10,000 year memory? :confused:. Do you know maths? From 12 to 19th Century is 10.000 years?
:confused:


Sorry but no... it's quite apparent the fustanella was only popularly used by Albanians and the Greeks of 19th century decided to make the fustanella their national costume.Show us evidence that says the fustanella was not an Albanian creation, and that it was used by Greece inhabitants for centuries.
Parts of Pottery from 12th Century, Corinth.
(Albanians in Greece, from 13th to 16th Century)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/12th_century_Greek_Warrior_Fustanella.JPG


The Chiton you showed had absolutely nothing in relation with the modern fustanella which is being used by modern Greeks. The Greeks at the time probably didn't even know about the Chiton otherwise they might have adopted that as their national dress instead of the fustanella...
Αgain = Continuity.
Culture, and customs are passing from time to time trough generations.
Also, facts/artifacts remain.

Your ''method'' is wrong. Let's take for example something from the past as well.
We had NOT Olympic Games since antiquity, yet , Olympic games re-appeared a bit before 1900s.
Is it exactly same with 8-4th Century BC? Not really.
How did anyone knew about Olympics?

[Flintlocke]

Too common in my region but the men only wore it in times of festivities, the men at the start of this video wear the typical everyday costume people wore in the old times where I'm from. Thank god it has trousers and no white penis hats but black ones that look like WW2 American GI hats. :P

YDQO1JkrklA

[Rron]

Do you know maths? From 12 to 19th Century is 10.000 years?
:confused:

Parts of Pottery from 12th Century, Corinth.
(Albanians in Greece, from 13th to 16th Century)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/12th_century_Greek_Warrior_Fustanella.JPG

I see that you used sarcasm here but your forgot about Suouliotes:


The Souliotes were of Albanian origin (Albanian: Suliotët), while the dialect they initially spoke is classified as one of Cham Albanian dialects of Tosk Albanian, and religiously, they belonged to the Church of Constantinople, part of the larger Greek Orthodox Church.


'
''Culture, Civilization, and Demarcation at the Northwest Borders of Greece. Laurie Kain Hart. American Ethnologist, Vol. 26, No. 1 (Feb., 1999), pp. 196-220.''

A Souliote warrior wearing fustanella:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Souliotis_in_Corfu.jpg

[Queen B]

I see that you used sarcasm here but your forgot about Suouliotes:

Sarcasm? Where did you saw that?

I was asked to show proof that Greeks used it before the Albanians enter Greece, and I did.



Parts of Pottery from 12th Century, Corinth.
(Albanians in Greece, from 13th to 16th Century)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/12th_century_Greek_Warrior_Fustanella.JPG

[iNird]

Do Pontic Greeks wear them? Greeks from Crete or Cyprus?

[rashka]

It is of celtic ancestry I think,but I doubt albanians or greeks will want to admit it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fustanella#Name_in_various_languages


I think this type of attire is of Greek origin. There is no way that they took it from Albanians, the NEWCOMERS to the Balkans. I don't see in the link where it shows that it is from Celtic ancestry.

Looking at the names in various languages, I have never heard this name in Serbian for a skirt or dress unless it is describing the skirt in the Greek costume. Skirt in Serbian is suknja, dress is haljina.

Quote:
Name
The word derives from Italian fustagno 'fustian' + -ella (diminutive), the fabric from which the earliest kilts were made. This in turn derives from Medieval Latin fūstāneum, perhaps a diminutive form of fustis, "wooden baton". Other authors consider this a calque of Greek ξύλινο (xylino), lit. 'wooden' i.e. 'cotton'; Others speculate that it is derived from Fostat, a suburb of Cairo where cloth was manufactured.[24] The Greek plural is foustanelles (Greek: φουστανέλλες) but as with the (semi-correct) foustanellas, it is rarely employed by native English speakers.

Name in various languages

Native terms for "skirt" and "dress" included for comparison:


Language: Kilt-short skirt / Skirt / Dress

Bulgarian: фустанела(fustanela) / фуста(fusta) / фустан (fustan)

Macedonian: фустан fustan / фустан fustan / фустан fustan

Greek: φουστανέλλα (foustanélla) / φούστα (foústa) / φουστάνι (foustáni)

Serbo-Croatian: фустанела fustanela / фистан fistan / фистан fistan

Albanian: fustanellë,fustanella / fund / fustan

Italian: fustanella / gonna /--- /

Aromanian: fustanelã / fustã / fustanã

Megleno-Romanian: fustan / --- / fustan

Romanian: fustanelă / fustă / --- /

Turkish: --- / --- / fistan

[Onur]

Fustanella is a corruption of Turkish word "Fistan" meaning skirt and this is ofc an Albanian dress.

Already the folk costumes of Greece are either Albanian or Turkish in origin, representing their Arvanite (Albanian) roots under Turkish influence. Fustanella is just one of them but there are many others.

Btw, wearing pants as a folk costume is a sign of horse riding because you cannot ride a horse with a skirt. So, skirts are for peasants or for people in mountainous regions where they don't ride horses. Turks were riding horses, both men and women and thats why they never wore skirts and even the most women was wearing skirt-like looking baggy trousers.


Look at the so-called "hellenic" folk costumes from a Greek website;
http://www.foresia.com/

All i see are Albanian and Turkish costumes except Corfu costumes where Venetian influence is clearly visible and it`s the only costume without fez/headscarves but they use hats instead. Even if the costume is an Albanian style, still there are Turkish influences like embroiders of tulips and other central Asian Turkic designs used on our carpets.

Also i see the names of the accessories in this website. All are Turkish in origin, like;
"salvari" for women trousers (şalvar in Turkish),
"tepeliki" for the woman hat with coins on it (Tepelik in Turkish),
"tsarouchia" for the shoes (Çarık in Turkish)
"Fez" for the man hat

We use these same Turkish words for our folklore costumes in Turkey too.


Here are some of the so-called "hellenic" costumes from that website;
http://www.kontouzoglou.com/photos/costumes/641156.jpg
http://www.kontouzoglou.com/photos/costumes/641123.jpg
http://www.kontouzoglou.com/photos/costumes/647807.jpg


Now look at the Türkü`s thread showing the southwestern women of Turkey wearing similar folk costumes and same accessories;
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48012

[Rron]

It is of celtic ancestry I think,but I doubt albanians or greeks will want to admit it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fustanella#Name_in_various_languages
From your link :


Franz Nopcsa von Felső-Szilvás, one of the founders of Albanology, suggested that the Celtic kilt emerged after the Albanian kilt was introduced to the Celts through the Roman legions in Britain.

[Queen B]

The Chiton you showed had absolutely nothing in relation with the modern fustanella which is being used by modern Greeks.
I am not going to post ''just skirts'' but kilts with pleats/folds, just like Fustanella is
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/585/greekandromandress.jpg
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/7338/gerakaris.png
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_iK2kIM-voec/TE8ffuMmoHI/AAAAAAAAByw/WcxIfBuNiHc/s1600/polemistes.png
(11-12th century)
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_iK2kIM-voec/TE8ge2ODdZI/AAAAAAAABzg/Cd0DAwvXP5Q/s1600/proskynhtes.png
1486

Do Pontic Greeks wear them? Greeks from Crete or Cyprus?
Ponticshttp://static.flickr.com/91/258140050_13d795d90b.jpg

Fustanella is a corruption of Turkish word "Fistan" meaning skirt and this is ofc an Albanian dress.


Foustanella -> Fustagno (Italian) -> fustaneum (Latin)

[rashka]

Why did an Albanian called Flintlocke edit my own post and falsify my words - something I never said? Does he/she have the right to do so? They have to be banned. It is disgusting what they are doing. Such horrid behaviours from the lot of them.

[Romanion]

The official Greek Dress is a mixture of Baravian upper body uniform with Foustella bottom (the dress compenent). It being "albanian" is not correct as Greeks were wearing that sort of clothing forever so the influence is more likley from Greek-Albanian.

The design of the Fez is modeled after the Tarboush which is actually ancient Greek.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/583429/tarboosh

[Romanion]

One claim of an ancient link to the modern fustanella involves an ancient statue found in the outskirts of Epidamnus in Illyria(modern Durrës, Albania). The region surrounding Epidamnus was inhabited by the Illyrian tribe of the Taulanti.
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/7510/fusgurdr6jz.jpg



''John Wilkes, The Illyrians, pg.45-47, ISBN 0631198075''

The settlement of Epidamnus was a Greek colony of Corinth, so the statue is actually Greek.

[Romanion]

Fustanella is a corruption of Turkish word "Fistan" meaning skirt and this is ofc an Albanian dress.

Already the folk costumes of Greece are either Albanian or Turkish in origin, representing their Arvanite (Albanian) roots under Turkish influence. Fustanella is just one of them but there are many others.

Btw, wearing pants as a folk costume is a sign of horse riding because you cannot ride a horse with a skirt. So, skirts are for peasants or for people in mountainous regions where they don't ride horses. Turks were riding horses, both men and women and thats why they never wore skirts and even the most women was wearing skirt-like looking baggy trousers.


Look at the so-called "hellenic" folk costumes from a Greek website;
http://www.foresia.com/

All i see are Albanian and Turkish costumes except Corfu costumes where Venetian influence is clearly visible and it`s the only costume without fez/headscarves but they use hats instead. Even if the costume is an Albanian style, still there are Turkish influences like embroiders of tulips and other central Asian Turkic designs used on our carpets.

Also i see the names of the accessories in this website. All are Turkish in origin, like;
"salvari" for women trousers (şalvar in Turkish),
"tepeliki" for the woman hat with coins on it (Tepelik in Turkish),
"tsarouchia" for the shoes (Çarık in Turkish)
"Fez" for the man hat

We use these same Turkish words for our folklore costumes in Turkey too.


Here are some of the so-called "hellenic" costumes from that website;
http://www.kontouzoglou.com/photos/costumes/641156.jpg
http://www.kontouzoglou.com/photos/costumes/641123.jpg
http://www.kontouzoglou.com/photos/costumes/647807.jpg


Now look at the Türkü`s thread showing the southwestern women of Turkey wearing similar folk costumes and same accessories;
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48012

No, but nice try.

[Rron]

The official Greek Dress is a mixture of Baravian upper body uniform with Foustella bottom (the dress compenent). It being "albanian" is not correct as Greeks were wearing that sort of clothing forever so the influence is more likley from Greek-Albanian.
Your propagandistic words against words of historians ,archeologists etc , another quote:


The use of the garment was spread by Albanian bands via Epirus into Greece during the 18th and 19th centuries


''Samuel J. Barrows,The Isles and Shrines of Greece, 2005, 159, ISBN 1417917482''
''
''A short history of modern greece, 1958,''
And i even didnt use any Albanian source.

[Romanion]

Your propagandistic words against words of hisotorians ,archeologists etc , another quote:




''Samuel J. Barrows,The Isles and Shrines of Greece, 2005, 159, ISBN 1417917482''
''
''A short history of modern greece, 1958,''
And i even didnt use any Albanian source.

It seems he is wronge.

[Rron]

The settlement of Epidamnus was a Greek colony of Corinth, so the statue is actually Greek.
You missed the whole story, here is only a part what you have missed.
The region surrounding Epidamnus was inhabited by the Illyrian tribe of the Taulanti.

[Romanion]

You missed the whole story, here is only a part what you have missed.
The region surrounding Epidamnus was inhabited by the Illyrian tribe of the Taulanti.

Greek material culture was very popular among barbarians.

[Guapo]

Why did an Albanian called Flintlocke edit my own post and falsify my words - something I never said? Does he/she have the right to do so? They have to be banned. It is disgusting what they are doing. Such horrid behaviours from the lot of them.

If that happened to Rron teh cry baby then Nato would have been notified right away

[Ushtari]

But long before it came to symbolize Greek independence from the Ottoman Turks, the Albanian kilt, or fustanella, was common dress for men in the thirteenth century when it was worn by the Dalmatians, one of the illyrian progenitors of the Albanians. The historical and etymological roots of the fustanella, however, date back to the days of Rome, when the Albanian or illyrian kilt became the original pattern for Roman military dress. The word "fustanella" originates in the Italian fustagno, "from wich the word fustana is derived, with the diminutive form fustanella" (Papantoniou 2000: 206). The Hungarian sociologist and paleontologist Baron Nopcsa has theorized that the Celtic kilt emerged after the Albanian kilt was introduced to the Celts through the Roman legions in Britain. The historic link to the fustanella involves an ancient statue found in the area around the Acropolis in Athens dated from the third century BC. Nevertheless, no ancient Greek garments have survived to confirm that the origins of the fustanella are indeed in the pleated garments or chitons that were worn by men in Pericles' Athens.

The Modern fustanella appears in Greece worn by the Albanians, and especially the Arvanites, as Greeks of Albanian ancestry were called, most of whom fought alongside the Greeks against the Turks in the long war of independence (Figure 9.1). In the early years of the Greek revolution the fustanella remained generally a military outfit at a time that most men in occupied Greece actively resisted the Ottomans. A notorious group of rebels against the Ottomans, the Sulioutes, glorified by Byron as well as by Greek historians, were entirely Albanian (Winnifrith 1983: 45). As Walters notes, "identifying the Greek-Albanian man by his clothing was more difficult after the War of Independence, for the so-called "Albanian costume" became what has been identified as a "true" national dress of the mainland of Greece" (1995: 61).
Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=i6CmNSM290wC&pg=PA150&dq=fustanella&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mIilT9v_KujZ4QTzg43SCA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=fustanella&f=false)

[Guapo]

either way kilts and dresses on men are gay

[Romanion]

Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=i6CmNSM290wC&pg=PA150&dq=fustanella&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mIilT9v_KujZ4QTzg43SCA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=fustanella&f=false)

Acutally, through pottery we see that ancient Greeks did wear a skirt type clothing. This source is full of errors.

[Romanion]

by the Dalmatians, one of the illyrian progenitors of the Albanians

Since when are Albanians decendents of Illyrians?

[Rron]

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/5585/fusgvarrikr3um.jpg

Blacksmiths of Korça-tombstone

[Romanion]

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/5585/fusgvarrikr3um.jpg

Blacksmiths of Korça-tombstone

I see dresses.

[Rron]

I see dresses.
Dude you are only losing teh interweb space with your ignorance

[Romanion]

Dude you are only losing teh interweb space with your ignorance

Explain.

[cossackpride]

I have a History Degree but admittedly Ancient History never interested me and I never read much into it. Greeks may have given birth to civilization in the sense of enlightened concepts and reasoning but reasoning / cute words didn't stop a Barbarian from putting a sword through their section. In my opinion, might is right comes to mind.


I don't see it any different from the Roman fan boys. The Romans were pretty ghetto in the sense that they had to steal military / metal technology like mail from the Cisapline Gauls.


Considering all the slaves in Greek / Roman society.. one would had been better off as a 'barbarian'. Sure you didn't have Aristotlean logic but at the time same you weren't a slave on an agricultural estate or an unemployed pleb in the overpopulated urban settlements.

[Ushtari]

In fact it was the Albanians who originated the costume still used as uniform by the Greek evzones or royal guardsmen: the "fustanella" or pleated white felt kilt, the hide shoes with turned-up points and colorful pom-poms, the crimson sash or belt stuffed with weapons, a black-winged jacket and a white fez.
Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=IJ2s9sQ9bGkC&pg=PR12&dq=fustanella+greek+albanian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DZGlT6u9EoHl4QS14rWTCQ&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBDgK#v=onepage&q=fustanella&f=false)

[Duke]

Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=IJ2s9sQ9bGkC&pg=PR12&dq=fustanella+greek+albanian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DZGlT6u9EoHl4QS14rWTCQ&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBDgK#v=onepage&q=fustanella&f=false)

written by Edwin E. Jacques, guy who is only know by Albanians.

It seems he only wrote this one book, and it became holy bible to albo nationalists

[Rron]

Explain.



“The fustanella, or white kilt, of the traditional Albanian is as common in the streets of Athens as the private soldier’s uniform in London”

''The classic and the beautiful from the literature of three thousand years‎ – Page 395
by Henry Coppée – Juvenile Nonfiction – 1895 page 395''


“The Albanians are the descedants of one of the oldest of the Balkan races...”
~The new Europe’ by Bernard Newman page 366 (1972)~

“The Albanians are the oldest original inhabitants of the Balkan Peninsula…’
~The world book: organized knowledge in story and picture‎ – Page 147
by Michael Vincent O’Shea, Ellsworth D. Foster, George Herbert Locke 1917

[Romanion]

“[QUOTE]The fustanella, or white kilt, of the traditional Albanian is as common in the streets of Athens as the private soldier’s uniform in London”

But its not Albanian.


(The classic and the beautiful from the literature of three thousand years‎ – Page 395
by Henry Coppée – Juvenile Nonfiction – 1895 page 395


“The Albanians are the descedants of one of the oldest of the Balkan races...”
~The new Europe’ by Bernard Newman page 366 (1972)~

“The Albanians are the oldest original inhabitants of the Balkan Peninsula…’
~The world book: organized knowledge in story and picture‎ – Page 147
by Michael Vincent O’Shea, Ellsworth D. Foster, George Herbert Locke 1917

Romanticism, all very vague.

[Ushtari]

The southern Albanians, for the most part, wear the white kilt or fustanella, embroidered jacket and gaiters, and shoes with upturned pointed tocs, a dress wich was adopted throughout Greece at the time of the revolution as the national costume and wich replaced the loose blue or brown knickerbockers still retained by the islanders.
Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=mlrZxK-UNp0C&pg=PA23&dq=%22throughout+Greece+at+the+time+of+the+revolut ion+as+the+national+costume%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DqWlT4rxMJCO4gTtiLDRCA&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22throughout%20Greece%20at%20the%20time%20of%20 the%20revolution%20as%20the%20national%20costume%2 2&f=false)

[Romanion]

Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=mlrZxK-UNp0C&pg=PA23&dq=%22throughout+Greece+at+the+time+of+the+revolut ion+as+the+national+costume%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DqWlT4rxMJCO4gTtiLDRCA&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22throughout%20Greece%20at%20the%20time%20of%20 the%20revolution%20as%20the%20national%20costume%2 2&f=false)

Albanians adopt Greek clothing then Greeks adopt their own clothing? somethign doesn't add up.

[Vasconcelos]

Considering all the slaves in Greek / Roman society.. one would had been better off as a 'barbarian'. Sure you didn't have Aristotlean logic but at the time same you weren't a slave on an agricultural estate or an unemployed pleb in the overpopulated urban settlements.

On the other hand they didn't contribute as much to today's mentality and society which is why most people don't care about their legacy as much as Greece/Rome, and life as a "barbarian" sure as hell shouldn't have been pleasent either.

[Ushtari]

The picturesque Albanian dress with its pleated fustanella has ben adopted as the Greek national costume and is worn by the Evzones of the Greek army
Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=UwwOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA245&dq=fustanella+greeks&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cKalT7rOGIf_4QSA6fC0CQ&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=fustanella%20greeks&f=false)

[Rron]

Romanticism, all very vague.



Lol while you talked about romanticism here we go:

“The philhellenes of America, Britain and Western Europe had called for a free Greek state in a romantic passionate attempt to bring to life the Hellenic culture of the past. Little did any of them know of what extreme changes had taken place in the region of what was once the Greek City States. ‘Naturally, many travelers and philhellenes were shocked at the Greeks’ lack of sophistication, and the ABSENCE OF A PHYSICAL RESEMBLANCE TO THE HELLENES of their classical imagination”.

~”The Balkans, Nationalism, War and the Great Powers” by Misha Glenny, page 33

[Darko]

Why did an Albanian called Flintlocke edit my own post and falsify my words - something I never said? Does he/she have the right to do so? They have to be banned. It is disgusting what they are doing. Such horrid behaviours from the lot of them.

Why do you still wonder?He is Albanian afterall.

[Romanion]

Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=UwwOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA245&dq=fustanella+greeks&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cKalT7rOGIf_4QSA6fC0CQ&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=fustanella%20greeks&f=false)

What is the Greek in my Avatar wearing?

[Romanion]

Lol while you talked about romanticism here we go:

“The philhellenes of America, Britain and Western Europe had called for a free Greek state in a romantic passionate attempt to bring to life the Hellenic culture of the past. Little did any of them know of what extreme changes had taken place in the region of what was once the Greek City States. ‘Naturally, many travelers and philhellenes were shocked at the Greeks’ lack of sophistication, and the ABSENCE OF A PHYSICAL RESEMBLANCE TO THE HELLENES of their classical imagination”.

~”The Balkans, Nationalism, War and the Great Powers” by Misha Glenny, page 33

That's nice.

[brunette]

The only difference I can notice is the fez.

http://www.michaelcreasy.com/photos/greece/009%20Greek%20Parliament%20Guards.jpg

And the fact that they don't look inbreded?

[Rron]

That's nice.
So do you know now what is romanticism?

[Romanion]

So do you know now what is romanticism?

Albanians pretending to be Illyrians?

[Ushtari]

It is quite likely that the Albanian fustanella, wich was adopted by the Greeks after their liberation in 1821 as their national costume, is a development of this pleated shirt.
Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=_eoOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA60&dq=fustanella+greeks&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WKulT8m7EtOK4gSa8MWICQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwATge#v=onepage&q=fustanella%20greeks&f=false)

[Romanion]

Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=_eoOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA60&dq=fustanella+greeks&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WKulT8m7EtOK4gSa8MWICQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwATge#v=onepage&q=fustanella%20greeks&f=false)

Again, avatar.

[Rron]

Albanians pretending to be Illyrians?



''Albanians, as lineal descendants of the Illyrians''


(Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland‎ – Page 232
by Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, 1879)

[Romanion]

''Albanians, as lineal descendants of the Illyrians''


(Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland‎ – Page 232
by Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, 1879)

Wow, 1879, that was a great year.

[Ushtari]

But long before it came to symbolize Greek independence from the Ottoman Turks, the Albanian kilt, or fustanella, was common dress for men in the thirteenth century when it was worn by the Dalmatians, one of the illyrian progenitors of the Albanians. The historical and etymological roots of the fustanella, however, date back to the days of Rome, when the Albanian or illyrian kilt became the original pattern for Roman military dress. The word "fustanella" originates in the Italian fustagno, "from wich the word fustana is derived, with the diminutive form fustanella" (Papantoniou 2000: 206). The Hungarian sociologist and paleontologist Baron Nopcsa has theorized that the Celtic kilt emerged after the Albanian kilt was introduced to the Celts through the Roman legions in Britain. The historic link to the fustanella involves an ancient statue found in the area around the Acropolis in Athens dated from the third century BC. Nevertheless, no ancient Greek garments have survived to confirm that the origins of the fustanella are indeed in the pleated garments or chitons that were worn by men in Pericles' Athens.

The Modern fustanella appears in Greece worn by the Albanians, and especially the Arvanites, as Greeks of Albanian ancestry were called, most of whom fought alongside the Greeks against the Turks in the long war of independence (Figure 9.1). In the early years of the Greek revolution the fustanella remained generally a military outfit at a time that most men in occupied Greece actively resisted the Ottomans. A notorious group of rebels against the Ottomans, the Sulioutes, glorified by Byron as well as by Greek historians, were entirely Albanian (Winnifrith 1983: 45). As Walters notes, "identifying the Greek-Albanian man by his clothing was more difficult after the War of Independence, for the so-called "Albanian costume" became what has been identified as a "true" national dress of the mainland of Greece" (1995: 61).

Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=i6CmNSM290wC&pg=PA150&dq=fustanella&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mIilT9v_KujZ4QTzg43SCA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=fustanella&f=false)


The Fustanella is a product of theft. The Greek state snatched the national dress of the Arvanites and established it as a military uniform copying the English.
Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=i6CmNSM290wC&pg=PA150&dq=fustanella&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5jilT4jBHbPU4QSfn6WsCQ&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=fustanella&f=false)


In fact it was the Albanians who originated the costume still used as uniform by the Greek evzones or royal guardsmen: the "fustanella" or pleated white felt kilt, the hide shoes with turned-up points and colorful pom-poms, the crimson sash or belt stuffed with weapons, a black-winged jacket and a white fez.
Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=IJ2s9sQ9bGkC&pg=PR12&dq=fustanella+greek+albanian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DZGlT6u9EoHl4QS14rWTCQ&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBDgK#v=onepage&q=fustanella&f=false)


The southern Albanians, for the most part, wear the white kilt or fustanella, embroidered jacket and gaiters, and shoes with upturned pointed tocs, a dress wich was adopted throughout Greece at the time of the revolution as the national costume and wich replaced the loose blue or brown knickerbockers still retained by the islanders.
Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=mlrZxK-UNp0C&pg=PA23&dq=%22throughout+Greece+at+the+time+of+the+revolut ion+as+the+national+costume%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DqWlT4rxMJCO4gTtiLDRCA&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22throughout%20Greece%20at%20the%20time%20of%20 the%20revolution%20as%20the%20national%20costume%2 2&f=false)


The picturesque Albanian dress with its pleated fustanella has ben adopted as the Greek national costume and is worn by the Evzones of the Greek army
Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=UwwOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA245&dq=fustanella+greeks&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cKalT7rOGIf_4QSA6fC0CQ&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=fustanella%20greeks&f=false)


It is quite likely that the Albanian fustanella, wich was adopted by the Greeks after their liberation in 1821 as their national costume, is a development of this pleated shirt.
Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=_eoOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA60&dq=fustanella+greeks&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WKulT8m7EtOK4gSa8MWICQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwATge#v=onepage&q=fustanella%20greeks&f=false)

[Rron]

Wow, 1879, that was a great year.


The Albanians are the oldest original inhabitants of the Balkan Peninsula…’
~The world book: organized knowledge in story and picture‎ – Page 147
by Michael Vincent O’Shea, Ellsworth D. Foster, George Herbert Locke 1917

[Romanion]

Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=i6CmNSM290wC&pg=PA150&dq=fustanella&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mIilT9v_KujZ4QTzg43SCA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=fustanella&f=false)


Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=i6CmNSM290wC&pg=PA150&dq=fustanella&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5jilT4jBHbPU4QSfn6WsCQ&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=fustanella&f=false)


Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=IJ2s9sQ9bGkC&pg=PR12&dq=fustanella+greek+albanian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DZGlT6u9EoHl4QS14rWTCQ&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBDgK#v=onepage&q=fustanella&f=false)


Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=mlrZxK-UNp0C&pg=PA23&dq=%22throughout+Greece+at+the+time+of+the+revolut ion+as+the+national+costume%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DqWlT4rxMJCO4gTtiLDRCA&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22throughout%20Greece%20at%20the%20time%20of%20 the%20revolution%20as%20the%20national%20costume%2 2&f=false)


Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=UwwOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA245&dq=fustanella+greeks&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cKalT7rOGIf_4QSA6fC0CQ&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=fustanella%20greeks&f=false)


Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=_eoOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA60&dq=fustanella+greeks&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WKulT8m7EtOK4gSa8MWICQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwATge#v=onepage&q=fustanella%20greeks&f=false)

Repeat the same propaganda 1000 times, my avatar says otherwise.

[Romanion]

The Albanians are the oldest original inhabitants of the Balkan Peninsula…’
~The world book: organized knowledge in story and picture‎ – Page 147
by Michael Vincent O’Shea, Ellsworth D. Foster, George Herbert Locke 1917

1917 was a great year aswell.

[Adrian]

Greek historians admit that fustanella is Albanian costume.

min 4.01 - 4.43

DKSS4-sQAkM


Nice try BTW!

[Dacul]

How can you explain the presence of fustanella in some romanian traditional folk cosumes?
In some zones,not very often,one zone being north of Romania,at least 1000km north away from Albania.
Is simple,is celtic influence,romans took this from celts and not reversed.
I think albanians also took from celts who settled between them this folk costume.

http://images5.okr.ro/auctions/2009/08/30/239444585-2057369-500_500.jpg

[Romanion]

Greek historians admit that fustanella is Albanian costume.

min 4.01 - 4.43

DKSS4-sQAkM


Nice try BTW!

Hehe, he's wronge, nice try.

[Dacul]

R1b is from the Caucasus. Tepes was into Neolithic chicks i'm proud to say. :)

No they claim to be Illyrian ( Latin tribes ) descendants thus being native to Kosovo, even though Dinarics are all over the Baltics.

Than germans and celts originated from Caucasus (this is what I think also).

[Adrian]

Albanian costume is a Fez.

Where is your limit on trolling?!

[Adrian]

Hehe, he's wronge, nice try.

Why?

[Romanion]

Why?

Because of my Avatar. Greek were wearing that type of dress long before 1821.

[Adrian]

Because of my Avatar. Greek were wearing that type of dress long before 1821.

You are repeating the same post for the 10th time!

If my and your historians agree that fustanella is Albanian costume, who are you to dare to contradict them?

What is your profession?...except cyber warriorism.

[Adrian]

Where is your limit on trolling my Caucasian brother?

In which period of history has been occurred our separation?

[iNird]

Yes every one is wrong except for the malaka on the apricity who claims his aunt spoke Slavic macedonian. Either back up your statements or STFU malaka.

[Romanion]

You are repeating the same post for the 10th time!

If my and your historians agree that fustanella is Albanian costume, who are you to dare to contradict them?

What is your profession?...except cyber warriorism.

I will repreat it untill it sinks in. This is not rocket science, Greeks were wearing this type of clothing long before 1821, there is no evidence that Illyrians had it, (that is assuming Albanians are Illyrians). Dani also provided evidence form the middle ages of the same sort of attire. Southern Albanians wearing this clothing compaired to their northern cousins should tell a whole different story about them.

[Romanion]

Yes every one is wrong except for the malaka on the apricity who claims his aunt spoke Slavic macedonian. Either back up your statements or STFU malaka.

You mad? Albanians claim they are the oldest peopel in the balkans but their language wasn't codified untill 100 years ago. Albanians = dreamers.

[Rron]

Because of my Avatar. Greek were wearing that type of dress long before 1821.


there is no evidence that Illyrians had it,



Take a look at this image of Illyrian warrior
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/C4or5IllyrianScuta.jpg

[Romanion]

Take a look at this image of Illyrian warrior
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/C4or5IllyrianScuta.jpg

I wasn't aware Illyrians had Hoplites.

[Romanion]

Albanians aren't the only ones who descend from Illyrian tribes. Albanians aren't originally Illyrian.

Albanians speak a balkanic language, but that doesn't mean it was Illyrian. They share words with Romanian which its people was a northern Thracian lanugage. Does that mean Albanians speak thracian?

[Rron]

inhabitants in several regions of the country wearing fustanellas in the past have lead many researchers and historians to the conclusion of an Illyrian origin of fustanella, with Albanians having inherited fustanella from Illyrians

''Arthur Evans, J. Wilkes, p.126, Ancient Illyria: an archaeological exploration ISBN 1845111672''[/QUOTE]

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/5585/fusgvarrikr3um.jpg

Blacksmiths of Korça-tombstone
Dude this is tombstone archeological object from II-III century found in Korçë

[Adrian]

I will repreat it untill it sinks in. This is not rocket science, Greeks were wearing this type of clothing long before 1821, there is no evidence that Illyrians had it, (that is assuming Albanians are Illyrians). Dani also provided evidence form the middle ages of the same sort of attire. Southern Albanians wearing this clothing compaired to their northern cousins should tell a whole different story about them.

Dude, I don't have the luxury of free time to deal all night long with stubborn internet warriors like you!

Historians certainly have studied all facts that have been available to reach such a conclusion. Irascible teenagers, infected by nationalist propaganda, can not change the facts.

[Adrian]

Albanians aren't the only ones who descend from Illyrians.

So, Albanians are Illyrians...but not the only one who descent from Illyrians?

[Rron]

I wasn't aware Illyrians had Hoplites.
You are not aware about many things, that is visible.

[alb0zfinest]

edit: sorry hadn't seen that it was allready posted

[Adrian]

Yes you claim you're the only ones and the first ones. You aren't the only ones and you aren't the first ones either.

What about Azerbaijan "sister"?

[Queen B]

I came back and found several pages of posts that prove nothing.

I posted facts of Greeks wearing the pleat kilt before (11-12 century), Albanian intro in Greece so everything else is not in need at all.

So, for an Albanian to prove me wrong he either have to

1) Prove somehow that Albanians entered Greece before 13th-16 century AND wore pleated kilts that date

1) Prove the sources/artifacts wrong

Since both are undenyable, there is no need for further discussion

[Adrian]

I came back and found several pages of posts that prove nothing.

I posted facts of Greeks wearing the pleat kilt before (11-12 century), Albanian intro in Greece so everything else is not in need at all.

So, for an Albanian to prove me wrong he either have to

1) Prove somehow that Albanians entered Greece before 13th-16 century AND wore pleated kilts that date

1) Prove the sources/artifacts wrong

Since both are undenyable, there is no need for further discussion

Go ask your historians Dandelion. If you don't belive them, let me know!

[Rron]

I came back and found several pages of posts that prove nothing.

I posted facts of Greeks wearing the pleat kilt before (11-12 century), Albanian intro in Greece so everything else is not in need at all.

So, for an Albanian to prove me wrong he either have to

1) Prove somehow that Albanians entered Greece before 13th-16 century AND wore pleated kilts that date

1) Prove the sources/artifacts wrong

Since both are undenyable, there is no need for further discussion

1 Still you forgot about Suliotes and Arvanites

2 You are showing some artifacts of 13 century while we are showing some archeological objects of II century

[Adrian]

East Alpine Med and Pontic. My Caucasian Arranian brother.

:rolleyes:

So your limit of trolling is infinite?

[Dacul]

Here,scordisci were a celtic tribe that were living where is today Serbia,but not only there:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci.
So there is very possibile to be a lot of influence from Celts in Romania and rest of Balkans.

[Romanion]

Dude, I don't have the luxury of free time to deal all night long with stubborn internet warriors like you!

Historians certainly have studied all facts that have been available to reach such a conclusion. Irascible teenagers, infected by nationalist propaganda, can not change the facts.

I'm not arguing, I'm teaching. Modern day albanians didn't time travel and teach ancient Greeks how to make the dress. Its called common sence.

[Queen B]

Go ask your historians Dandelion. If you don't belive them, let me know!
Can you prove any of 1) and 2) that I posted wrong?
If you can't then no reason to talk about it more.
If you can, then, I will accept your words.

Up until now though, you can't.
I posted sources that Greeks wore pleated kilts before the entry of Albanians in Greece. And they entry of Albanians in Greece is recorded, and - till now - not disputed.

So yes, if you can't prove me wrong, the theory that ''Greeks took fustanella from Albanians'' is wrong.

[Adrian]

Guapo send me the rep comment in private I couldn't read it.

Ok, try to read your trolling posts in this thread after 10 seconds!

[safinator]

Lol at delusional posters in this thread :laugh:

[Romanion]

Here,scordisci were a celtic tribe that were living where is today Serbia,but not only there:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci.
So there is very possibile to be a lot of influence from Celts in Romania and rest of Balkans.

Is it possible that this type of clothing is indo-european. I'm not an expert on this I'm just guessing.

[Queen B]

1 Still you forgot about Suliotes and Arvanites

Arvanites are of Albanian origin, correct? Yes.
They are Albanians that came to Greece? Correct.
I haven't forgot I know what they are, but Arvanites/Albanians, came in Greece AFTER what I posted.


2 You are showing some artifacts of 13 century while we are showing some archeological objects of II century
No, I m posting some artifacts of 11-12th Century. And the difference is that
Albanians came in Greece, AFTER that.

[brunette]

Here,scordisci were a celtic tribe that were living where is today Serbia,but not only there:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci.
So there is very possibile to be a lot of influence from Celts in Romania and rest of Balkans.

Oh thanks yes I know a Serbian guy so i'll keep that link and ask him about it. I'm not sure about Serbia I just know Southern Serbians have the Macedonian Thracian connection.

[Adrian]

Can you prove any of 1) and 2) that I posted wrong?
If you can't then no reason to talk about it more.
If you can, then, I will accept your words.

Up until now though, you can't.
I posted sources that Greeks wore pleated kilts before the entry of Albanians in Greece. And they entry of Albanians in Greece is recorded, and - till now - not disputed.

So yes, if you can't prove me wrong, the theory that ''Greeks took fustanella from Albanians'' is wrong.

Dandelion, do you believe your historians or not?

Don't lose my time please!

[brunette]

Is it possible that this type of clothing is indo-european. I'm not an expert on this I'm just guessing.

Yup, says right here.

The ethnic affiliation of the Scordisci has been debated by historians. Some refer to them as Celtic,[7][8][9] Thracian[10] or Illyrian[11] or a Celtic mix of the above.[12] The Scordisci were found during different timelines in Illyria, Thrace and Dacia sometimes splitting into more than one group like the Scordisci Major and the Scordisci Minor.

[Duke]

guys your arguing here is funny

Everybody wore dress before introduction of pants, which came pretty late with Scythian nomads.

Posting a Greek painting where a guy is in dress doesn't prove fustanela is greek, fustanela is a specific dress, and it came from Albos

[Queen B]

Dandelion, do you believe your historians or not?
Don't lose my time please!
I believe in historians, so can you tell they are wrong that Albanians came in Greece after 13th century?

Its simple: yes or no?

[Rron]

Arvanites are of Albanian origin, correct? Yes.
They are Albanians that came to Greece? Correct.
I haven't forgot I know what they are, but Arvanites/Albanians, came in Greece AFTER what I posted.

No, I m posting some artifacts of 11-12th Century. And the difference is that
Albanians came in Greece, AFTER that.
Read about Arvanites and Souliotes and then came back and reread what you have write , you will laugh with your words expecially with bolded part.

[Aramis]

My interest for the ongoing discussion has been lost since page four. But until then, I've noticed many photos from medieval times have been posted, depicting man wearing skirts. So, I might as well join the party...


Bosnian tombstones, dating from the 11. to 14. century:

http://www.orbus.be/aktua/2009/images/dostmilutin_4.jpg

http://www.most.ba/103/stecak.jpg

http://bogumil.blogg.se/images/2011/13_146291859.jpg

http://www.glassrbije.org/srbija/sites/default/files/u3/stecak.jpg

http://photoforum.istria.info/data/media/236/BROTNICE_025_Stecak_2009IMG_2559.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5lJywvYHCuc/TU0Y0F2_wHI/AAAAAAAAJFM/rH-0M4iwj4Y/s1600/zeravica_brotnice.jpg

You see, Albanians and Greeks were not the only one to wear pretty manskirts on the Balkan :)

[brunette]

guys your arguing here is funny

Everybody wore dress before introduction of pants, which came pretty late with Scythian nomads.

Posting a Greek painting where a guy is in dress doesn't prove fustanela is greek, fustanela is a specific dress, and it came from Albos

Tito? Scythians were from where the Caucasus, so you confirm Albanians are from Azerbaijan/Armenia? Great!

[Duke]

nzRGT6F0XPE

Moreška, dance about Moors, with their traditional dresses, only decorated in 2 festive colors performed at festivites.

It is traditional dance in Croatia, since our fights with Berber corsairs over mediteran sea.

:D

[brunette]

My interest for the ongoing discussion has been lost since page four. But until then, I've noticed many photos from medieval times have been posted, depicting man wearing skirts. So, I might as well join the party...


Bosnian tombstones, dating from the 11. to 14. century:

http://www.orbus.be/aktua/2009/images/dostmilutin_4.jpg

http://www.most.ba/103/stecak.jpg

http://bogumil.blogg.se/images/2011/13_146291859.jpg

http://www.glassrbije.org/srbija/sites/default/files/u3/stecak.jpg

http://photoforum.istria.info/data/media/236/BROTNICE_025_Stecak_2009IMG_2559.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5lJywvYHCuc/TU0Y0F2_wHI/AAAAAAAAJFM/rH-0M4iwj4Y/s1600/zeravica_brotnice.jpg

You see, Albanians and Greeks were not the only one to wear pretty manskirts on the Balkan :)

T-H-E C-E-L-T-S WH00T.

[Queen B]

Read about Arvanites and Souliotes and then came back and reread what you have write , you will laugh with your words expecially with bolded part.
I know already, I have read about this. When they came in Greece,again? Before or after 11-12th century?

[Adrian]

I believe in historians, so can you tell they are wrong that Albanians came in Greece after 13th century?

Its simple: yes or no?

Ok then, fustanella is Albanian :( :( :(

I am off :)

[Queen B]

Ok then, fustanella is Albanian :( :( :(

I am off :)

You didn't answer when Albanians came in Greece according to historians. :coffee:

Before or after 13th century?
From what century is my source?

Case close :wink

[Aramis]

T-H-E C-E-L-T-S WH00T.

I don't know what you had in mind while writing it, but just to be sure: there were no celts in these parts of the balkan. The ones who managed to get lost in the bosnian moutains, didn't leave any critical influence.

[Duke]

I don't know what you had in mind while writing it, but just to be sure: there were no celts in these parts of the balkan. The ones who managed to get lost in the bosnian moutains, didn't leave any critical influence.

Lots of people dont know, or dont wont to understand, that dress was pretty much standard for everybody.

Pants were invention of horse riding nomads, for obvious reasons.

[Aramis]

Lots of people dont know, or dont wont to understand, that dress was pretty much standard for everybody.

Pants were invention of horse riding nomads, for obvious reasons.

I tend to agree. But what about Celts (and trousers)?

http://www.ivargault.com/bilder/begrav.jpg

[Rron]

I know already, I have read about this. When they came in Greece,again? Before or after 11-12th century?
I forgot to mention Çamët , im off too

[brunette]

I don't know what you had in mind while writing it, but just to be sure: there were no celts in these parts of the balkan. The ones who managed to get lost in the bosnian moutains, didn't leave any critical influence.

Celts had the first man skirt.

[Aramis]

Celts had the first man skirt.

What Celts? Celts were a group distributed from Scotland down to Portugal and all over to Anatolia, yet their origin being central Europe. So, which tribe?

And link to a source please.

[brunette]

Celts are from Anatolia? No you mean the Goths that's bullshit.
IDK i've only seen Scottish Celts wear a skirt.

[Aramis]

Celts are from Anatolia? No you mean the Goths that's bullshit.
IDK i've only seen Scottish Celts wear a skirt.

Have you read what I wrote? Here's a picture...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Celts_800-400BC.PNG

[The Lawspeaker]

Celts are from Anatolia? No you mean the Goths that's bullshit.
IDK i've only seen Scottish Celts wear a skirt.
Look up Galatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia). :)

[brunette]

Look up Galatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia). :)

:) Goths.

[brunette]

Have you read what I wrote? Here's a picture...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Celts_800-400BC.PNG

Sorry is that Anatolia?

[Dacul]

Celts in Europe,maximum area of expansion at around 275 BC:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Celts_in_Europe.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts

[The Lawspeaker]

Sorry is that Anatolia?
Look at the right. Anatolia is what is now Central Turkey.

[brunette]

Look at the right. Anatolia is what is now Central Turkey.

Yes the Goths as I have said.

[The Lawspeaker]

Yes the Goths as I have said.
Gauls were not Goths but Celts and the latter were Germanic. Learn to read, brunette. You live in England so you can read the article. :)

[brunette]

Gauls were not Goths but Celts and the latter were Germanic. Learn to read, brunette. You live in England so you can read the article. :)

Learn to know the difference the Gauls were to do with the Vandals. Who were not Celts but Germanic Latin tribes.

[rashka]

From the Fashion Encyclopedia:

Mycenaean men living on the mainland of what would become Greece in about 1600 B.C.E. and Minoan men living on the Greek island of Crete around 3000 B.C.E. wore several basic styles of loin coverings and usually left their upper bodies bare. These styles developed over time and were adapted as clothes for laborers or undergarments in later Greek society.

Worn by Mycenaeans and Minoans, the kilt, or schenti, was a thigh-length skirt with a tasseled point in front that hung between the knees. The kilt was held around the waist by a tight belt. Kilts were often made with elaborate designs and are believed to be the costume of only the wealthiest men. Pictures of these Mycenaean and Minoan kilts remain on frescoes, paintings done directly on plaster walls, and pottery from the period. Similar schenti had also been worn by wealthy Egyptians as early as 2700 B.C.E.

[Loki]

Why did an Albanian called Flintlocke edit my own post and falsify my words - something I never said? Does he/she have the right to do so? They have to be banned. It is disgusting what they are doing. Such horrid behaviours from the lot of them.

Edited your post? Such is not allowed, I am sorry.

[The Lawspeaker]

Learn to know the difference the Gauls were to do with the Vandals. Who were not Celts but Germanic Latin tribes.
Wrong.

[Ushtari]

Whether Greeks whore kilts in ancient times is irrelevant here. As Duke pointed out earlier, we are talking about the Fustanella, wich was introduced in Greece by the Albanians, as my several sources confirms.



But long before it came to symbolize Greek independence from the Ottoman Turks, the Albanian kilt, or fustanella, was common dress for men in the thirteenth century when it was worn by the Dalmatians, one of the illyrian progenitors of the Albanians. The historical and etymological roots of the fustanella, however, date back to the days of Rome, when the Albanian or illyrian kilt became the original pattern for Roman military dress. The word "fustanella" originates in the Italian fustagno, "from wich the word fustana is derived, with the diminutive form fustanella" (Papantoniou 2000: 206). The Hungarian sociologist and paleontologist Baron Nopcsa has theorized that the Celtic kilt emerged after the Albanian kilt was introduced to the Celts through the Roman legions in Britain. The historic link to the fustanella involves an ancient statue found in the area around the Acropolis in Athens dated from the third century BC. Nevertheless, no ancient Greek garments have survived to confirm that the origins of the fustanella are indeed in the pleated garments or chitons that were worn by men in Pericles' Athens.

The Modern fustanella appears in Greece worn by the Albanians, and especially the Arvanites, as Greeks of Albanian ancestry were called, most of whom fought alongside the Greeks against the Turks in the long war of independence (Figure 9.1). In the early years of the Greek revolution the fustanella remained generally a military outfit at a time that most men in occupied Greece actively resisted the Ottomans. A notorious group of rebels against the Ottomans, the Sulioutes, glorified by Byron as well as by Greek historians, were entirely Albanian (Winnifrith 1983: 45). As Walters notes, "identifying the Greek-Albanian man by his clothing was more difficult after the War of Independence, for the so-called "Albanian costume" became what has been identified as a "true" national dress of the mainland of Greece" (1995: 61).

Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=i6CmNSM290wC&pg=PA150&dq=fustanella&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mIilT9v_KujZ4QTzg43SCA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=fustanella&f=false)


The Fustanella is a product of theft. The Greek state snatched the national dress of the Arvanites and established it as a military uniform copying the English.
Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=i6CmNSM290wC&pg=PA150&dq=fustanella&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5jilT4jBHbPU4QSfn6WsCQ&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=fustanella&f=false)


In fact it was the Albanians who originated the costume still used as uniform by the Greek evzones or royal guardsmen: the "fustanella" or pleated white felt kilt, the hide shoes with turned-up points and colorful pom-poms, the crimson sash or belt stuffed with weapons, a black-winged jacket and a white fez.
Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=IJ2s9sQ9bGkC&pg=PR12&dq=fustanella+greek+albanian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DZGlT6u9EoHl4QS14rWTCQ&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBDgK#v=onepage&q=fustanella&f=false)


The southern Albanians, for the most part, wear the white kilt or fustanella, embroidered jacket and gaiters, and shoes with upturned pointed tocs, a dress wich was adopted throughout Greece at the time of the revolution as the national costume and wich replaced the loose blue or brown knickerbockers still retained by the islanders.
Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=mlrZxK-UNp0C&pg=PA23&dq=%22throughout+Greece+at+the+time+of+the+revolut ion+as+the+national+costume%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DqWlT4rxMJCO4gTtiLDRCA&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22throughout%20Greece%20at%20the%20time%20of%20 the%20revolution%20as%20the%20national%20costume%2 2&f=false)


The picturesque Albanian dress with its pleated fustanella has ben adopted as the Greek national costume and is worn by the Evzones of the Greek army
Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=UwwOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA245&dq=fustanella+greeks&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cKalT7rOGIf_4QSA6fC0CQ&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=fustanella%20greeks&f=false)


It is quite likely that the Albanian fustanella, wich was adopted by the Greeks after their liberation in 1821 as their national costume, is a development of this pleated shirt.
Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=_eoOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA60&dq=fustanella+greeks&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WKulT8m7EtOK4gSa8MWICQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwATge#v=onepage&q=fustanella%20greeks&f=false)

[dralos]

i dont understand this,we have shown so many sources that prove that it is albanian
even greek historians claime that it is albanian but the greeks still deny it LOL

[Arsen_]

Here is an interesting picture from the book published in 1862 in Russia. Sign under picture was: Грек и Арнаут (Greek and Arnaut)

http://pics.livejournal.com/sibir79/pic/001fq87z.jpg

[Romanion]

[QUOTE]Whether Greeks whore kilts in ancient times is irrelevant here. As Duke pointed out earlier, we are talking about the Fustanella, wich was introduced in Greece by the Albanians, as my several sources confirms.


Not just Ancient, but medieval aswell, predating the arrival of Albanians to Greece. Tosk Albanoans most likely copied the Greek dress while under Byzantine rule, which is why it is not common among Geghs.


"Although some scholars have claimed that the fustanella was introduced into Greece by Albanians in the 15th century,[3][13][14][15][16] archaeological evidence shows that the fustanella was already in common use in Greece as early as the 12th century,[12] predating the arrival of Albanian speakers on Greek lands by several centuries. The full-pleated Greek fustanella was worn originally as a military outfit and seems to have been reserved for persons of importance.[12] It was frequently worn in conjunction with bows, swords, or battle-axes and frequently shown covered with a jointed corselet, or with a vest of chain mail.[12]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fustanella

[Ushtari]

Not just Ancient, but medieval aswell, predating the arrival of Albanians to Greece. Tosk Albanoans most likely copied the Greek dress while under Byzantine rule, which is why it is not common among Geghs.
Do you have any source for this? and with source i mean a text-quote aswell as a direct link to the work.

[Romanion]

Do you have any source for this? and with source i mean a text-quote aswell as a direct link to the work.

I have, and Dandi already posted it but you ignored it.

[Guapo]

I have, and Dandi already posted it but you ignored it.

ignore ushtari, all he does is troll and then whine when someone refutes him.

[Romanion]

Byzantine Pottery from Corinth showing the atire worn by Greeks before the arrival of Arvanites;

http://books.google.ca/books?id=0T5oAAAAMAAJ&q=fustanella

[Duke]

we used simmilar type of dress traditionaly as costume to describe Moors

http://ikorcula.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/P5120321.jpg

[Romanion]

we used simmilar type of dress traditionaly as costume to describe Moors

http://ikorcula.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/P5120321.jpg

Is this a battle re-enactment?

[Duke]

Is this a battle re-enactment?

No its Moreška, dance of Moors

kzR4ME4sR0Y

[Queen B]

[QUOTE=Ushtari;875229]
Not just Ancient, but medieval aswell, predating the arrival of Albanians to Greece. Tosk Albanoans most likely copied the Greek dress while under Byzantine rule, which is why it is not common among Geghs.

That's what I am talking all the time, with sources, but NOONE can deny it .

[Flintlocke]

That costume sucks anyway, you should be fighting and accusing the others that they brought bad influences to you not who invented it first. :P

[El Gre]

Not just Ancient, but medieval aswell, predating the arrival of Albanians to Greece. Tosk Albanoans most likely copied the Greek dress while under Byzantine rule, which is why it is not common among Geghs.

I would like a serious explanation to this , if its Albanian why is it not common among Ghegs, im pretty sure thier costume is pants.

[Guapo]

I would like a serious explanation to this , if its Albanian why is it not common among Ghegs, im pretty sure thier costume is pants.

Ghegs are mostly Slavic background, their pants resemble shepherds from eastern europe.

[Ushtari]

That's what I am talking all the time, with sources, but NOONE can deny it .
Again, whether Greeks whore kilts or not 1000years ago is totally irrelevant here since it is commonly known that the Fustanella became the national dress of Greece at the time of independence from Turks, as a result of strong Albanian influence in that time, as my several sources confirm (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=875229&postcount=141).

[Onur]

I would like a serious explanation to this , if its Albanian why is it not common among Ghegs, im pretty sure thier costume is pants.
It should be related with horse riding. Horsemen was always wearing pants, no exception.

So, Ghegs was riding horse but the ones in Morea wasn't and probably Ghegs was living in plains where it`s suitable for horses.


Again, whether Greeks whore kilts or not 1000years ago is totally irrelevant here since it is commonly known that the Fustanella became the national dress of Greece at the time of independence from Turks, as a result of strong Albanian influence in that time, as my several sources confirm (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=875229&postcount=141).
You are right. The pictures from antiquity doesn't prove shit. It`s just laughable. If that would be the case, then their folk culture (music, costumes, food etc.) wouldn't be Albanian and Turkish today. If these are remained from ancient hellenes, then why Greeks today uses full Turkish terminology for these folk costumes?


Already, modern Greeks have no relation with ones pictured on antique vases. Ancient Greeks died out and became extinct after 3-4th century AD. They killed their own culture because they became Romans, integrated into their society and they cursed their ancient pagan lifestyle after they became christians. They even destroyed whatever they had from antiquity, including their ancient documents. Only the eastern cultures preserved ancient Greek knowledge but western world cursed it and forgot it completely.

You know, the ancient Greek culture resurrected after Europeans discovered their documents in Arabic language in the libraries of Andalusian kingdom. After ~800 years of time, western Europe rediscovered ancient Greeks after 16th century and then they artificially resurrected Greece in 19th century in the sanjak of Arnaut of Ottoman empire by using the Albanian, Macedonian, Turkish, Vlach speaking orthodox people.

[Queen B]

Again, whether Greeks whore kilts or not 1000years ago is totally irrelevant here since it is commonly known that the Fustanella became the national dress of Greece at the time of independence from Turks, as a result of strong Albanian influence in that time, as my several sources confirm (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=875229&postcount=141).
No. It's tottaly relevant actually, .
We can see Greeks wearing pleated kilts BEFORE Albanians come to Greece, during Byzantine empire and Ottoman empire. Meaning : continiously.

[Ushtari]

No. It's tottaly relevant actually, .
We can see Greeks wearing pleated kilts BEFORE Albanians come to Greece, during Byzantine empire and Ottoman empire. Meaning : continiously.
Nope, one can clearly read in my sources that Greeks adopted the dress from Albanians after the war of independence.

[Queen B]

Nope, one can clearly read in my sources that Greeks adopted the dress from Albanians after the war of independence.

Ι believe what I see. And I see Greeks wearing pleated kilts at 11th Century, during Byzantine, and Ottoman empire.

If it makes you feel better, believe the book, and not the facts, no problem :coffee:

[Anthropologique]

It is of celtic ancestry I think,but I doubt albanians or greeks will want to admit it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fustanella#Name_in_various_languages

The greek "skirt" has no connection with the kilt-wraps that have existed along the Atlantic Facade for many thousands of years. The Greek version is not Celtic in origin.

[Vojnik]

Source: Source: Popular Mechanics, September 1934, Vol. 62, No. 3.

http://i45.tinypic.com/33ct1s3.png

The children of Socrates in all there Albanian glory. :D

[Ushtari]

Ι believe what I see. And I see Greeks wearing pleated kilts at 11th Century, during Byzantine, and Ottoman empire.

If it makes you feel better, believe the book, and not the facts, no problem :coffee:
Yeah i believe my books wich are based on facts:wink



As Walters notes, "identifying the Greek-Albanian man by his clothing was more difficult after the War of Independence, for the so-called "Albanian costume" became what has been identified as a "true" national dress of the mainland of Greece" (1995: 61).
Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=i6CmNSM290wC&pg=PA150&dq=fustanella&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mIilT9v_KujZ4QTzg43SCA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=fustanella&f=false)

[Queen B]

Yeah i believe my books :wink

Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=i6CmNSM290wC&pg=PA150&dq=fustanella&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mIilT9v_KujZ4QTzg43SCA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=fustanella&f=false)

I believe in facts and proves.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=873682&postcount=27
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=873929&postcount=35

So we can agree that we disagree. :wink

[Ushtari]

I believe in facts and proves.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=873682&postcount=27
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=873929&postcount=35

So we can agree that we disagree. :wink
No you have provided some random pics, while i have provided impartial sources confirming my statements. Its quite obvious who the credible one is here.


Try disprove my sources with real academic sources please, meaning you quote a text and provide a direct link to the work.

[Vojnik]

dandelion, what's your opinion on the photo I posted above?

[The Lawspeaker]

That costume sucks anyway, you should be fighting and accusing the others that they brought bad influences to you not who invented it first. :P
Exactly. It makes them look like cross-dressers. And then the horrible way in which those guards march. It's like putting your fingers on a blackboard to me. :D

zkLBjZ2eqEc

At least I can take those Brits, Danes and Swedes seriously when they are performing their little rituals at their royal palaces.

[Romanion]

No you have provided some random pics, while i have provided impartial sources confirming my statements. Its quite obvious who the credible one is here.


Try disprove my sources with real academic sources please, meaning you quote a text and provide a direct link to the work.

They are not random pics, your book seems to be outdated :thumb001:

I have provided you with a book stating the opposite, but like Dandi said, if it makes you happy, believe your fairytales.

[Romanion]

At least I can take those Brits, Danes and Swedes seriously when they are performing their little rituals at their royal palaces.

That british large hat always makes me smile.

[The Lawspeaker]

That british large hat always makes me smile.
A nice little leftover from the 19th century. I have read somewhere that the first time British soldiers wore those was after they nabbed them off dead French soldiers at Waterloo but that's probably another urban legend. :D

[Queen B]

No you have provided some random pics, while i have provided impartial sources confirming my statements. Its quite obvious who the credible one is here.
Try disprove my sources with real academic sources please, meaning you quote a text and provide a direct link to the work.
I provided pics from Greeks wearing the pleated kilt, BEFORE the entry of Albanians in Greece, and during Byzantine empire and Ottoman, proving the continuity of this custom.

However, if a ''written text'' is what you need
--
''Morgan, Charles Hill (1942). The Byzantine pottery. Cambridge, Mass., Published for the American school of classical studies at Athens, Harvard university press. σελ. 132-3. OCLC 36957616. "Most of these men are warriors with long curling locks falling down their backs, clad in pleated tunics or chain mail with short pointed caps on their heads. They wield swords, and protect themselves with shields, either round or shaped like a pointed oval … The mace-bearer of No. 1275 is clad in chain mail with a heavy pleated fustanella worn about his hips. The importance of this latter piece is very considerable, for the details of the costume, often shown on Incised-Sgraffito figures, are very clear, and make it certain that the fustanella exists as an independent garment and is not an elaboration of the lower
part of a tunic. It is consequently demonstrable that this characteristic garment of latter-day Greece was in common use as early as the twelfth century in Greek lands."
--


dandelion, what's your opinion on the photo I posted above?

I have already responded with facts above :)

[Romanion]

Just for Ushtari:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=0T5oAAAAMAAJ&q=fustanella

[Ushtari]

However, if a ''written text'' is what you need
Your text speaks of Greeks wearing it in 12th century. Nowhere in the text can one read that it has been worn by Greeks up to the independence where it became the national dress. On the contrary, my sources clearly confirms that Greeks adopted the dress from Albanians at the time of independence.

[Queen B]

Your text speaks of Greeks wearing it in 12th century. Nowhere in the text can one read that it has been worn by Greeks up to the independence where it became the national dress. On the contrary, my sources clearly confirms that Greeks adopted the dress from Albanians at the time of independence.

:lol00002:

Yeah, right because the:

'''The importance of this latter piece is very considerable, for the details of the costume, often shown on Incised-Sgraffito figures, are very clear, and make it certain that the fustanella exists as an independent garment and is not an elaboration of the lower
part of a tunic.It is consequently demonstrable that this characteristic garment of latter-day Greece was in common use as early as the twelfth century in Greek lands."


......The fact that is says that fustanella of 12th Century and from laters years is basically the same, according to the details of the clothing, is not enough

[Romanion]

Your text speaks of Greeks wearing it in 12th century. Nowhere in the text can one read that it has been worn by Greeks up to the independence where it became the national dress. On the contrary, my sources clearly confirms that Greeks adopted the dress from Albanians at the time of independence.

That doesn't mean the dress is albanian.

[Queen B]

That doesn't mean the dress is albanian.
Why Romanion? It does :lol:

You see, same people wearing the same - detailed - garment for so many years is not enough, you have to read it to a book to be considered correct. :coffee:

[Ushtari]

:lol00002:

Yeah, right because the


......The fact that is says that fustanella of 12th Century and from laters years is basically the same, according to the details of the clothing, is not enough
Im not interested in your own wishful conclusions. Your source speaks of Greeks in 12th century.


I have now posted 6 impartial sources confirming my claims, but still you are denying the obvioushttps://static.flashback.org/img/smilies2/whoco5.gif



oh hell! here is another one!


Since the war of Independence, the Albanian costume has become the national dress of the continental Greece.
Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=mlrZxK-UNp0C&pg=PA291&dq=Greek+Kilt+Albanian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6dqnT6PhJND14QTNwMk2&ved=0CFUQ6AEwBjge#v=onepage&q=Greek%20Kilt%20Albanian&f=false)

[Romanion]

Im not interested in your own wishful conclusions. Your source speaks of Greeks in 12th century.


I have now posted 6 impartial sources confirming my claims, but still you are denying the obvioushttps://static.flashback.org/img/smilies2/whoco5.gif



oh hell! here is another one!


Source (http://books.google.se/books?id=mlrZxK-UNp0C&pg=PA291&dq=Greek+Kilt+Albanian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6dqnT6PhJND14QTNwMk2&ved=0CFUQ6AEwBjge#v=onepage&q=Greek%20Kilt%20Albanian&f=false)

Its not Albanian, get over it, Albanians adopted it from Greeks.

[Queen B]

Im not interested in your own wishful conclusions. Your source speaks of Greeks in 12th century.
How much is 2 + 2 ? I'll say 4 without having to read it in a book.

My source - from Harvard scholar - speaks that Greeks of 19th century, wear the same garment - with details - that they wore in 12th.
I don't think that Greeks invented time machines and they went back to 11th centure to see what they wore back in that days...


I have now posted 6 impartial sources confirming my claims, but still you are denying the obvious

YOU are the one denying the obvious here.
We have Greeks wearing the same kilt they wore in 12th century, in 19th century, and you can't accept this, because you have to read it in a book :lol:

But it makes sense, if we didn't invent the time machine, you did then :wink

[Guapo]

albanians stop spammeing every thread

[Panopticon]

The Fustanella came to use quite late in Greece, and I find it quite nebulous that there would be a large gap in its use, for it to then come into use all of a sudden; I would call that proof of discontinuity rather than continuity.

As mentioned earlier, there was a large gap between the use of the fustanella (I'd rather not call any pleated skirt on ancient tablets a fustanella, it's just inconclusive). It went from the 12th century "fustanella to the sudden adoption and/or more widespread use of the fustanella in the 18th century, very (un)conveniently corresponding with the warlike Albanian populations in Greece and their brigandeer activity and subsequent rebellion and Albanian rule; Albanian influence.

The use of the Fustanella seems to have been continuous among Albanians, however. A document (15th century) describes Arbereshe migrants in Italy speak of the Fustanella as characteristic of the Tosks. Despite, popular belief, it was also used in the north, even among the Montenegrins. There are old documents which mention its use in northern territories as well, so it was not a (relatively) recent adoption from the South.

The Fustanella must have had a point of origin, it's highly unlikely that it had developed separately, not only in Albania and Greece but among other Balkan peoples as well and that it would be commonly referred to with the same name at the same time. So there's one point of origin, and that's certainly not Greece. All of the evidence points to Greeks and other peoples adopting it from Albanians. Which seems to be the case going by the evidence shown, even in southern Macedonia, a place that would more likely have Greek cultural influence than Albanian, the Fustanella is referred to as the Toska.

Other than that, other parts of the whole attire has been adopted from Albanians, the shoes f.e., the so called Opinga.

It pains me to see the Greek version of it though. It looks like a crossover of a ballerina's outfit and something taken out of Peter Pan. The style of opinga used by Greeks (with the pompons) is the children's version in Albania.

The original fustanella was intended for warriors - highlander style. And it was intended for upper-class people - aristocrats. It was not intended for the silliest looking national guards in the world, and of course not for someone to completely ruin the original.

[Romanion]

. All of the evidence points to Greeks and other peoples adopting it from Albanians. .

Actually, the evidence points otherwise.

[Romanion]

Albanian traditional clothing has pants as theri lower portion. The Dress which is only common in the south is a result of Greek cultural influences.

Traditional Albanian clothing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Albanian_clothing

There is no evidence that the dress is an invention of Albanians, for the earliest dipiction is Greek and into the middle ages it was still being worn. If it fell out of use by the Greeks and kept by the Tosk Albanians does not mean the dress is Albanian.

[Panopticon]

Albanian traditional clothing has pants as theri lower portion. The Dress which is only common in the south is a result of Greek cultural influences.

Not really. If you read my post above (which I suppose you haven't), it was commonly used in northern Albania and Montenegro (both Albanians and Montenegrins) as well, and that has been documented for a long time, so not a recent adoption from the south.

Ghegs; both wearing the Fustanella along with the Tirqe underneath.

http://i27.tinypic.com/2v2a4n7.jpg

http://www.painting-palace.com/files/200/19956_Albanian_Sentinel_resting_Arnaueti__f.jpg


Traditional Albanian clothing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Albanian_clothing

Using a Wikipedia that you evidently have just skimmed through is desperate. That Wiki article mentions the Fustanella as traditional Albanian clothing.



There is no evidence that the dress is an invention of Albanians, for the earliest dipiction is Greek


It's not much of a dipiction, and dipictions can be confusing. I'd rather rely on documents. The first mentions of the fustanella is in an Albanian context.


and into the middle ages it was still being worn.

Clearly there is little continuity, otherwise it wouldn't have been necessary to have it introduced into Greece.


If it fell out of use by the Greeks and kept by the Tosk Albanians does not mean the dress is Albanian.

That sounds quite unlikely; Greeks introducing the fustanella to Albanians, for some reason they stop using it while Albanians don't stop using it and in return introduce it to the Greeks. Wishful thinking from your side.

That sounds like a concession to the lack of continuity of its use. Which is a positive step.

I wrote a wall of text, which you have largely ignored, so this is not really a discussion of what I wrote earlier, and therefore you have effectively not taken a lot of arguments into consideration and this discussion will suffer from just that. If those premises I laid out aren't taken into consideration, this will just be you picking what you find more convenient: my previous post needs to be taken as an amalgation, it is a large picture consisting of several details, if you ignore one detail, the larger picture is no longer there; just like a machine doesn't work if it loses a cog.

[dralos]

horten i'm using that as my sig,very cool and beautiful painting

[Queen B]

The Fustanella came to use quite late in Greece, and I find it quite nebulous that there would be a large gap in its use, for it to then come into use all of a sudden; I would call that proof of discontinuity rather than continuity.

As mentioned earlier, there was a large gap between the use of the fustanella (I'd rather not call any pleated skirt on ancient tablets a fustanella, it's just inconclusive). It went from the 12th century "fustanella to the sudden adoption and/or more widespread use of the fustanella in the 18th century, very (un)conveniently corresponding with the warlike Albanian populations in Greece and their brigandeer activity and subsequent rebellion and Albanian rule; Albanian influence.


Not really, Horten. I have posted facts that Greeks wore it during Byzantine times, and Ottoman, so there is no discontinuity in the use.

[Guapo]

http://i27.tinypic.com/2v2a4n7.jpg

http://www.painting-palace.com/files/200/19956_Albanian_Sentinel_resting_Arnaueti__f.jpg



Ljolj, paintings by Paja Jovanovic, a Serb, showing how lazy they are :D

[Panopticon]

Not really, Horten. I have posted facts that Greeks wore it during Byzantine times, and Ottoman, so there is no discontinuity in the use.

I can't be bothered to look through the whole thread, but if you're referring to the 12th century pottery, I have already discussed that. And that's not an argument for continuity, rather it shows the opposite, because in more recent times, the fustanella wasn't widely used in Greece, unlike in Albania.

As for Ottoman times, you need to be a bit more specific. Even then, it seems to be scholarly agreement on this; the fustanella was introduced into Greece by Albanians.

[Panopticon]

Ljolj, paintings by Paja Jovanovic, a Serb, showing how lazy they are :D

Not lazy, just stoned.

[Queen B]

I can't be bothered to look through the whole thread, but if you're referring to the 12th century pottery, I have already discussed that. And that's not an argument for continuity, rather it shows the opposite, because in more recent times, the fustanella wasn't widely used in Greece, unlike in Albania.


No, I refer to this
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=873929&postcount=35
From antiquity,
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/585/greekandromandress.jpg
to 6th century AD,
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/7338/gerakaris.png
to 1200,
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_iK2kIM-voec/TE8ffuMmoHI/AAAAAAAAByw/WcxIfBuNiHc/s1600/polemistes.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/12th_century_Greek_Warrior_Fustanella.JPG
To 1486:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_AaNlQBEdInc/TBZ_FE7WoyI/AAAAAAAAARI/T3KV514YZew/s1600/die+griechischen+Bewohner+Jerusalems-%CE%9F%CE%B9+%CE%88%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%B5% CF%82-+%CF%84%CF%8D%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%B9+%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%B9 +%CE%B5%CE%BD%CE%B4%CF%85%CE%BC%CE%B1%CF%83%CE%AF% CE%B1.jpg
16th Century
http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/7352/patrinoskleftouriablogs.jpg

[Panopticon]

Those are with two exceptions (one already posted) just skirts, whole uniforms; not fustanellas. Your pictures are nill vs. our documents tbh.

[Queen B]

Those are with two exceptions (one already posted) just skirts, whole uniforms; not fustanellas. They are pleated kilts.
I have found tones of photos with just skirts, uniforms or longer skirts, but they are not the same.

Your pictures are nill vs. our documents tbh.
You ''documents'' are based on one single finding from 1335 AD.
(I haven't even seen the actuall finding yet)
I ve posted more and before this, during and after.

[Onur]

Not lazy, just stoned.
High five :)

By looking at these pictures, they call Turks as lazy too but they don't understand that it wasn't only tobacco on those nargiles ;). They invented bonks by copying from these nargiles but still cant figure it out what they were smoking in those times :)

[Panopticon]

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/7352/patrinoskleftouriablogs.jpg

This f.e. is obviously a whole uniform, not a fustanella. Tbh, I'm not going to bother if you're going to post anything vaguely resemblant and claim it to be a fustanella. You're probably not going to accept that it's not a fustanella, and this will go nowhere if you don't.

[Petros Houhoulis]

...is actually Albanian. Why steal from Albos? Unless you guys are Albos in disguise? :D

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Albanian_fustanella.jpg

Do you know what has been the traditional Greek costume since antiquity?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fustanella


Some scholars state that the fustanella was derived from a series of classical Greek garments such as the chiton (or tunic) and the chitonium (or short military tunic).[1][2][3] Although the pleated kilt has been linked to an ancient statue (3rd century BC) located in the area around the Acropolis in Athens, there are no surviving ancient Greek clothings that can confirm this connection.[3] The Roman toga may have also influenced the evolution of the fustanella based on statues of Roman emperors wearing knee-length pleated kilts (in colder regions, more folds were added to provide greater warmth).[4] Franz Nopcsa von Felső-Szilvás, one of the founders of Albanology, suggested that the Celtic kilt emerged after the Albanian kilt was introduced to the Celts through the Roman legions in Britain, while folklorist Ioanna Papantoniou considers the Celtic kilt, as viewed by the Roman legions, to have served as a prototype.[3] Sir Arthur Evans considered the fustanella of the female peasants (worn over and above the Slavonic apron) living near the modern Bosnian-Montenegrin borders as a preserved Illyrian element among the local Slavic-speaking populations.[5]

In the Byzantine Empire, a pleated kilt known as the podea (Greek: ποδέα) was worn.[6][7] The wearer of the podea was either associated with a typical hero or an Akritic warrior and can be found in 12th-century finds attributed to Emperor Manuel I Komnenos (r. 1143–1180).[7] On Byzantine pottery sherds, warriors are shown bearing weapons and wearing the heavy pleated fustanella, including a mace-bearer clad in chain-mail.[8]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fustanella#Greece


Although some scholars have claimed that the fustanella was introduced into Greece by Albanians in the 15th century,[3][13][14][15][16] archaeological evidence shows that the fustanella was already in common use in Greece as early as the 12th century,[12] predating the arrival of Albanian speakers on Greek lands by several centuries. The full-pleated Greek fustanella was worn originally as a military outfit and seems to have been reserved for persons of importance.[12] It was frequently worn in conjunction with bows, swords, or battle-axes and frequently shown covered with a jointed corselet, or with a vest of chain mail.[12]

Generally speaking, all of the Mediterranean people except the Gallic Celts wore some sort of dress that was not trousers, and the Ancient Greek tunic is certainly closer to the foustanella than the pants ever were:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pants#History


History PrehistoryThere is some evidence, from figurative art, of trousers being worn in the Upper Paleolithic. An example are the figurines found at the Siberian sites of Mal'ta and Buret'.[3]

Antiquity
Scythian archer. Interior from an Ancient Greek Attic red-figure plate, ca. 520–500 BC, from Vulci. British Museum, London.
Germanic trousers of the 4th century found in the Thorsberg moor, GermanyTrousers first enter recorded history in the 6th century BCE, with the appearance of horse-riding Iranian peoples in Greek ethnography. At this time, not only the Persians, but also allied Eastern and Central Asian peoples such as the Bactrians, Armenians, and the Tigraxauda Scythians, Xiongnu Hunnu (nowadays Mongolia) are known to have worn them.[4][5] Trousers are believed to have been worn by both sexes among these early users.[6]

The ancient Greeks used the term "ἀναξυρίδες" (anaxyrides) for the trousers worn by eastern nations[7] and "σαράβαρα" (sarabara) for the loose trousers worn by the Scythians.[8] However, they did not wear trousers since they thought them ridiculous,[9][10] using the word "θύλακες" (thulakes), pl. of "θύλακος" (thulakos), "sack", as a slang term for the loose trousers of Persians and other orientals such as a Altaic.[11]

Republican Rome viewed the draped clothing of Greece, and Minoan (Crete) culture as an emblem of civilization and disdained trousers as the mark of barbarians.[12] As the Empire expanded beyond the Mediterranean basin, however, the greater warmth provided by trousers led to their adoption.[13] Two types of trousers eventually saw widespread use in Rome; the Feminalia, which fit snugly and usually fell to knee or mid-calf length,[14] and the Braccae, a loose fitting trouser which was closed at the ankles.[15] Both garments were adopted originally from the dress of the Celts of Europe, although later familiarity with the Persian Near East, and the Teutons increased acceptance. Feminalia and Braccae both began use as military garments, spreading to civilian dress later and were eventually made in a variety of materials including leather, wool, cotton and silk.[16]

Dusko, this is not the filthsite to let you demonstarte your stupidity unchallenged. Get used to it!

[Petros Houhoulis]

I can't be bothered to look through the whole thread, but if you're referring to the 12th century pottery, I have already discussed that. And that's not an argument for continuity, rather it shows the opposite, because in more recent times, the fustanella wasn't widely used in Greece, unlike in Albania.

As for Ottoman times, you need to be a bit more specific. Even then, it seems to be scholarly agreement on this; the fustanella was introduced into Greece by Albanians.

In reality a variety of kilts have been worn in Greece since the ancient times. Nevertheless, ever since the Greeks of the Ottoman era begun approaching the Western standards, they also begun appropriating the clothing of the Western people. As a result, within the south Balkans, soon enough any variation of pants begun to be referred as the "Greek clothing" and any variation of kilts would be referred to as Albanian clothing since - evidently - the Albanians were an existing people at that time period, unlike some others who post about issues they have no idea whatsoever.

In any case, we are all wearing pants in everyday use and none of us wears kilts of any sort, except perhaps from some women, or during some festivities which occur not more than twice a year, which means that the whole point and the discussion is moot: The Gallic Celts have overrun us in that cultural aspect...

...And any alien landing in Albania today would consider the trousers as the casual Albanian dress.

None of us can speak of continuity today, because we have all discontinued the foustanella from daily use. Game Over!

[Panopticon]

In reality a variety of kilts have been worn in Greece since the ancient times. Nevertheless, ever since the Greeks of the Ottoman era begun approaching the Western standards, they also begun appropriating the clothing of the Western people. As a result, within the south Balkans, soon enough any variation of pants begun to be referred as the "Greek clothing" and any variation of kilts would be referred to as Albanian clothing since - evidently - the Albanians were an existing people at that time period, unlike some others who post about issues they have no idea whatsoever.

Every skirt, gown, dress, etc. isn't the same as a fustanella. We should be very specific because even is there some resemblence between some clothings they're still not the same.


In any case, we are all wearing pants in everyday use and none of us wears kilts of any sort, except perhaps from some women, or during some festivities which occur not more than twice a year, which means that the whole point and the discussion is moot: The Gallic Celts have overrun us in that cultural aspect...

The fustanella isn't a kilt to begin with: both the kilt and the fustanella are "manly" skirts however; the former being worn by the Scottish, the latter being worn by mainly Albanians and Greeks, but also other peoples in the Balkans to a lesser extent. Although, yes, it's not used casually today.


...And any alien landing in Albania today would consider the trousers as the casual Albanian dress.

Yes. However, that has little relevance to the discussion. We're not talking about current fashion after all. Although, to put this sentence in some context; jeans are originally American and the use of it is due to American cultural influence.


None of us can speak of continuity today, because we have all discontinued the foustanella from daily use. Game Over!

I don't think anyone is speaking of there being continuity to this day, this should be seen in an entirely historical context, not a modern one, because the Fustanella is not modern.

In that historical context, there was continuity in its use, at least among Albanians, it has been mentioned in several older documents, f.e. one mentioning its use in Shkodra and another one mentions Albanian migrants in Italy (during Skanderbeg's time) wearing the Fustanella, it defining the clothing of the Tosk migrants.

[Romanion]

I wrote a wall of text, which you have largely ignored, so this is not really a discussion of what I wrote earlier, and therefore you have effectively not taken a lot of arguments into consideration and this discussion will suffer from just that. If those premises I laid out aren't taken into consideration, this will just be you picking what you find more convenient: my previous post needs to be taken as an amalgation, it is a large picture consisting of several details, if you ignore one detail, the larger picture is no longer there; just like a machine doesn't work if it loses a cog.

You have no Arguments. There is no evidence that it is an ALbanian invention, Greeks were wearing it alot earlier. Show me evidence that Albanians invented it, because there is none. There is no discussion, because there is nothing to discuss.

[Panopticon]

High five :)

By looking at these pictures, they call Turks as lazy too but they don't understand that it wasn't only tobacco on those nargiles ;). They invented bonks by copying from these nargiles but still cant figure it out what they were smoking in those times :)

:D

The French painter Jean Leon Gerome had some obsession with Albanians smoking shisha.

I don't see the point of blowing tobacco in the face of the dog, more pleasant things, however... Common practice today even.
http://www.jeanleongerome.org/Une-Plaisanterie-%28A-Joke%29-%28or-Arnaut-blowing-Smoke-at-the-Nose-of-his-Dog%29.jpg

Introspection and shisha on free-time.
http://www.chinaoilpaintinggallery.com/oilpainting/Jean-Leon-Gerome/Arnaut-Smoking.jpg

[Panopticon]

You have no Arguments. There is no evidence that it is an ALbanian invention, Greeks were wearing it alot earlier. Show me evidence that Albanians invented it, because there is none. There is no discussion, because there is nothing to discuss.

I do have arguments. (Ironically that statement came from you: who has yet to bring anything valuable in any discussion, other than deriding other debatants and being stuck-up of course, but that is not valuable to the actual discussion).

Read the earliest post I made in this thread and argue against them if you will. I believe you actually had, but you only chose to argue with what you found convient to argue with, which you did not manage that well, as even your counter-arguments were disproven.

As for evidence, several sources have been shown and there are several documents (that I have referred to) which gives my point credibility. That you might not find them convient is another case.

[Romanion]

I do have arguments. (Ironically that statement came from you: who has yet to bring anything valuable in any discussion, other than deriding other debatants and being stuck-up of course, but that is not valuable to the actual discussion).

Read the earliest post I made in this thread and argue against them if you will. I believe you actually had, but you only chose to argue with what you found convient to argue with, which you did not manage that well, as even your counter-arguments were disproven.

As for evidence, several sources have been shown and there are several documents (that I have referred to) which gives my point credibility. That you might not find them convient is another case.


The Fustanella came to use quite late in Greece, and I find it quite nebulous that there would be a large gap in its use, for it to then come into use all of a sudden; I would call that proof of discontinuity rather than continuity.

As mentioned earlier, there was a large gap between the use of the fustanella (I'd rather not call any pleated skirt on ancient tablets a fustanella, it's just inconclusive). It went from the 12th century "fustanella to the sudden adoption and/or more widespread use of the fustanella in the 18th century, very (un)conveniently corresponding with the warlike Albanian populations in Greece and their brigandeer activity and subsequent rebellion and Albanian rule; Albanian influence.

The use of the Fustanella seems to have been continuous among Albanians, however. A document (15th century) describes Arbereshe migrants in Italy speak of the Fustanella as characteristic of the Tosks. Despite, popular belief, it was also used in the north, even among the Montenegrins. There are old documents which mention its use in northern territories as well, so it was not a (relatively) recent adoption from the South.

I don't see any proof in your ramblings. Whether the Greeks adopted it from Albanians in the 19th century I'm not argueing. I'm argueing the dress itself was Greek in origin and not Albanian. There is no evidence of it being an albanian invention. There is evidence of it beign used as a military dress by the Greeks from antiquity to the midle ages. Tosk Albanians were part of the Byzantine Epirus state, which explains why they adopted it and not the Geghs. The Geghs have their own traditional atire.

[Panopticon]

I don't see any proof in your ramblings

That has more to do with your character. That you do not take any other viewpoint than your own is your own problem.


Whether the Greeks adopted it from Albanians in the 19th century I'm not argueing.



I'm argueing the dress itself was Greek in origin and not Albanian. There is no evidence of it being an albanian invention.

There is nothing to points to a Greek origin of it either. There is no hard-proof of where it came from. However, as in many cases, there are always clues, which can give credibility to certain viewpoints and arguments. That has been mentioned by me already.


There is evidence of it beign used as a military dress by the Greeks from antiquity to the midle ages.

Not really. That "evidence" is for the most part paintings, pottery, etc., most of the supposed deciptions of the fustanella provided here were not fustanellas, some of them not even skirts. Our case has the backing of documentation, however, which is much more conclusive than images which can be interpreted in many ways because it is not concrete, this is especially true for ancient art which was rather obscure/less well made in comparison to more contemporary art.


Tosk Albanians were part of the Byzantine Epirus state, which explains why they adopted it and not the Geghs. The Geghs have their own traditional atire.

Gheg Albanians have used the fustanella as well, the first mention of the fustanella in any historical document that I know of is in fact in Shkodra. I have shown you images of northern Albanians using the fustanella; even Montenegrins have used it. The only thing I can conclude here is that you have completely disregarded my previous postings. If you want to discuss, then follow the rules of discussion.

Taking into consideration that you are referring to the Despotate of Epirus and the Byzantine Empire; the fustanella never was a part of Byzantine fashion, Byzantine fashion was completely different. The Byzantine Empire and the Despotate of Epirus are therefore not a factor.

[Romanion]

[QUOTE]Not really. That "evidence" is for the most part paintings, pottery, etc., most of the supposed deciptions of the fustanella provided here were not fustanellas, some of them not even skirts. Our case has the backing of documentation, however, which is much more conclusive than images which can be interpreted in many ways because it is not concrete, this is especially true for ancient art which was rather obscure/less well made in comparison to more contemporary art.

That is evidence, and it predates the arrival of arvanites to Greece. I don't know what ancient art you have been looking at, but it is very detailed. Again, there is no evidence that it is an albanian invention.



Gheg Albanians have used the fustanella as well, the first mention of the fustanella in any historical document that I know of is in fact in Shkodra. I have shown you images of northern Albanians using the fustanella; even Montenegrins have used it. The only thing I can conclude here is that you have completely disregarded my previous postings. If you want to discuss, then follow the rules of discussion.

Their usage can be explained by Tosk influence.


Taking into consideration that you are referring to the Despotate of Epirus and the Byzantine Empire; the fustanella never was a part of Byzantine fashion, Byzantine fashion was completely different. The Byzantine Empire and the Despotate of Epirus are therefore not a factor.

The Pottery from Corinth was Byzantine. Albania was never a cultural powerhouse, its always been ruled and influenced.

[Panopticon]

That is evidence, and it predates the arrival of arvanites to Greece. I don't know what ancient art you have been looking at, but it is very detailed. Again, there is no evidence that it is an albanian invention.

It is not evidence. In most cases, they are deciptions of skirts, gowns, dresses, etc. with only vague resemblance, that is hardly substantial evidence. There are Illyrian figurines showing similar dresses as well. However, they are hardly sufficient to prove anything, as they have resemblence, but that is not enough because it is not hard evidence and because the fustanella has similarities to many of the dresses used in ancient times, although they are not the same.

You have this in Bosnia f.e: resemblant; not necessarily the same; could be a fustanella; far outside of Greek cultural sphere.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2c/Stecak_iz_Radimlje.jpg/220px-Stecak_iz_Radimlje.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Stecak_Radimlja.jpg

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/263/800pxbosniangravesbosni.jpg

Pleated skirts were common in ancient times, although every pleated skirt is not a fustanella. The same inspiration probably, but not the same.

Byzantine soldier, he has a pleated skirt, but it is not a fustanella.
http://www.neobyzantine.org/pics/pages/history/army_legion.jpg

There is nothing substantial that proves the invention of the fustanella on either sides. (It is not about proving the invention of it, due to the absolute lack of evidence for the invention of a garment, it is about who adopted it; clearly Greeks did.) There is evidence for its use, however, and the only substantial evidence i.e references to its use, is that it was worn by Albanians.



Their usage can be explained by Tosk influence.

The first mentions of the fustanella is in northern territory. Your argument that Tosks adopted it under the despotate of Epirus, then Albanians (Ghegs) adopted it from Tosks so quickly (even though the fustanella has been used in more northern territories even), then the Greeks stopped wearing it, then they adopted it from migrating Albanians is simply dubious.



The Pottery from Corinth was Byzantine. Albania was never a cultural powerhouse, its always been ruled and influenced.

The pottery from Corinth is dubious to begin with, there is no clear evidence that it is a deciption of the fustanella, which is a very specific type of clothing with specific materials and stylization.

Which has little relevance. There is no need to be a ruling empire for there to have been a cultural influence. Which is why as you yourself seem to admit, Greeks adopted the fustanella in the 18-19th century from Albanians. The Barbarians influenced the civilized world greatly.

However you give the explanation of it having been a Greek dress before that and that Albanians (Tosks) adopted it from Greeks, then Greeks stopped wearing it and adopted it from Albanians. This is simply less likely than that the reason for the discontinuous use of the fustanella among Greeks being because they had not used it to begin with and adopted it from Albanians.

[Duke]

that "plated skirt" is actually piece of armor for protecting upper legs ;)

[Panopticon]

that "plated skirt" is actually piece of armor for protecting upper legs ;)

Yes. It is a pleated skirt, but it has the function of an armor as it part of the overall armor. Which is what I'm trying to say, there are many dresses that have resemblance to the fustanella (like that one), but it needs to be very specific.

[Aramis]

Men wearing skirts? Gay.

[Guapo]

Men wearing skirts? Gay.

Ya think!?

[Romanion]

[QUOTE]You have this in Bosnia f.e: resemblant; not necessarily the same; could be a fustanella; far outside of Greek cultural sphere.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2c/Stecak_iz_Radimlje.jpg/220px-Stecak_iz_Radimlje.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Stecak_Radimlja.jpg

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/263/800pxbosniangravesbosni.jpg


when do these stones date to?





There is nothing substantial that proves the invention of the fustanella on either sides. (It is not about proving the invention of it, due to the absolute lack of evidence for the invention of a garment, it is about who adopted it; clearly Greeks did.) There is evidence for its use, however, and the only substantial evidence i.e references to its use, is that it was worn by Albanians.

It doesn't prove that it is Albanian, the word is latin. The evidence points to the Greeks wearing this dress before Albanians have. This does point to creation among Greeks.




The first mentions of the fustanella is in northern territory. Your argument that Tosks adopted it under the despotate of Epirus, then Albanians (Ghegs) adopted it from Tosks so quickly (even though the fustanella has been used in more northern territories even), then the Greeks stopped wearing it, then they adopted it from migrating Albanians is simply dubious.

Tosks were under Greek inflounce long before 1204. Nova Epirus was the ancient Roman state that is now Albania. we are tlaking about over 1000 years.




The pottery from Corinth is dubious to begin with, there is no clear evidence that it is a deciption of the fustanella, which is a very specific type of clothing with specific materials and stylization.

The evidence does prove that these types of clothing were worn in Greece before the arvanites.


Which has little relevance. There is no need to be a ruling empire for there to have been a cultural influence. Which is why as you yourself seem to admit, Greeks adopted the fustanella in the 18-19th century from Albanians. The Barbarians influenced the civilized world greatly.

Barbarians had little cultural influence on the Byzntines. It was the Byzantines that had influnces over the barbarians with religion and the creation of the Cyrillic alphabet.


However you give the explanation of it having been a Greek dress before that and that Albanians (Tosks) adopted it from Greeks, then Greeks stopped wearing it and adopted it from Albanians. This is simply less likely than that the reason for the discontinuous use of the fustanella among Greeks being because they had not used it to begin with and adopted it from Albanians.

It was a clothing worn for military purposes. Christians under the Ottoman Empire were forbidden to carry arms, so the dress fell out of use. When the war of independence came around, they adopted it again. Pictures I've seen with Albanians carrying weapons and arms tells me they had a different privledge with the sultan, but I have to do research about it.

[Aramis]

Ya think!?

Why ya think all men nowadays wear trousers? Survival of the straightest, boy.

[Guapo]

Capris were invented by Albanians

[Aramis]

Capris were invented by Albanians

Screw that. Find the person who invented hotpants and make him a god.

[Guapo]

Screw that. Find the person who invented hotpants and make him a god.

some company called Zagora, must be Macedonian(sic)

http://zaggora.com/

[Aramis]

some company called Zagora, must be Macedonian(sic)

http://zaggora.com/

You like yourself some capris, don't cha?

No, hotpants were invented by a Welsh woman, Mary Quant.

All hail to the Welsh, the most superior nation to ever walk under the majestic summer Sun.

[Guapo]

You like yourself some capris, don't cha?

No, hotpants were invented by a Welsh woman, Mary Quant.

All hail to the Welsh, the most superior nation to ever walk under the majestic summer Sun.

It always rains in Cardiff, dude.

[Aramis]

It always rains in Cardiff, dude.

They are still the sexiest nation.

6KUJE2xs-RE

[Flintlocke]

Tom Jones pwns you all ^^

[Guapo]

Tom Jones was only born in Wales, he`s English

[dralos]

he's albanian it's a fact

[Petros Houhoulis]

Every skirt, gown, dress, etc. isn't the same as a fustanella. We should be very specific because even is there some resemblence between some clothings they're still not the same...

Look, I am not going to behave here as if the creator of the Foustanella discovered America. It is just a piece of cloth damned it, and nobody could possibly trace who created it first because it was never an important issue to begin with. More or less its' design has its' roots in antiquity and not in the 12th century. What might have happened in the Middle Ages was that somebody modified an existing dress, and he certainly did not invent a new type of cloth which was radically different from earlier designs... The "Greek kilt" dates to antiquity, all sorts of Foustanellas begun as modified versions of some ancient dresses.

[Guapo]

Look, I am not going to behave here as if the creator of the Foustanella discovered America. It is just a piece of cloth damned it, and nobody could possibly trace who created it first because it was never an important issue to begin with. More or less its' design has its' roots in antiquity and not in the 12th century. What might have happened in the Middle Ages was that somebody modified an existing dress, and he certainly did not invent a new type of cloth which was radically different from earlier designs... The "Greek kilt" dates to antiquity, all sorts of Foustanellas begun as modified versions of some ancient dresses.

This is really important, we need to figure out who invented the manskirt.

[Queen B]

This is really important, we need to figure out who invented the manskirt.
I did. It was too hot in Greece, and guys had to ''air'' their balls :lol:

[Aramis]

I did. It was too hot in Greece, and guys had to ''air'' their balls :lol:

No way. The weather in Albania gets hot as well. And Dalmatia isn't really in a continental climate zone either. It doesn't take much genius finding a way to cool off ones balls.

But Greek man in miniskrits? Now that would have been something.

[Guapo]

This thread is ballistic.

[Panopticon]

Look, I am not going to behave here as if the creator of the Foustanella discovered America. It is just a piece of cloth damned it, and nobody could possibly trace who created it first because it was never an important issue to begin with. More or less its' design has its' roots in antiquity and not in the 12th century. What might have happened in the Middle Ages was that somebody modified an existing dress, and he certainly did not invent a new type of cloth which was radically different from earlier designs... The "Greek kilt" dates to antiquity, all sorts of Foustanellas begun as modified versions of some ancient dresses.

I can agree to it probably having roots in antiquity. Still, it was most likely introduced into Greece through Albanians.

[Guapo]

After all, the fustanella is Still, it was most likely introduced into Greece through Albanians.

Probably because we all know how albanians intrude into other people's lands.

[Panopticon]

Probably because we all know how albanians intrude into other people's lands.

Migrations of peoples have never been unusual. In many cases voids were filled. You are forgetting that Serbs also migrated to the Balkans to begin with, and that their numbers in Bosnia f.e. was due to late migration into Bosnia.

[el22]

Their ways of stealing our history and culture seems to show this greatly too. Just look at how much they have stolen from us. Macedonia, Alexander the Great, FYROM-ians claim that Alexander the Great's blood runs in them, Kemence, our dances, foustanelas (used by so many nations around Balkans)

:D but is even the word foustanela Greek?
Btw, I'm curious how do you call woman's dress? (if possible type it in latin letters)

[Pontios]

:D but is even the word foustanela Greek?
Btw, I'm curious how do you call woman's dress? (if possible type it in latin letters)

Yes, its Greek. Fousta would be the woman's dress.
It comes from the very ancient Chiton that Greeks wore.

[Queen B]

:D but is even the word foustanela Greek?
Btw, I'm curious how do you call woman's dress? (if possible type it in latin letters)
Its from Italian fustagno :tongue

[el22]

Yes, its Greek. Fousta would be the woman's dress.
It comes from the very ancient Chiton that Greeks wore.

No, it comes from fustan (http://translate.google.com/#auto/en/fustan), from present day Albanian ;)

[Pontios]

No, it comes from fustan (http://translate.google.com/#auto/en/fustan), from present day Albanian ;)

The Fustanella originated from the Chiton which was used by Romans and copied from the Greek original during the 4th century BC before any of the nations that use it today existed. Do you not see what Roman soldiers wore 2000 years ago, and what Greek soldiers wore in 1821?

Listening to Albanians, half of Greece is Albanian and they freed us from Turks so this is no surprise to me...

[el22]

The Fustanella originated from the Chiton which was used by Romans and copied from the Greek original during the 4th century BC before any of the nations that use it today existed. Do you not see what Roman soldiers wore 2000 years ago, and what Greek soldiers wore in 1821?

Listening to Albanians, half of Greece is Albanian and they freed us from Turks so this is no surprise to me...

Well, I don't doubt that Greek nation existed before anyone else, what I don't understand is why you named the "Greek dress" fustan-el?
Try to type fustan image (http://www.google.com/search?q=balcan&oq=balcan&sugexp=chrome,mod=7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=fustan+image&oq=fustan+image&gs_l=serp.3...968102.969178.7.969944.7.7.0.0.0.0.0 .0..0.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.UUgkHLjyVQM&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.Yms&fp=c6a0557658b1052a&bpcl=40096503&biw=1280&bih=678) in Google and see what shows :picard2:

[Queen B]

Funstanella, etymologically comes from Italian fustagno.

Its origin dates back in ancient times, its the same type with chiton.

[Linet]

Well....we call fusta the skirt and fustani the dress :icon_ask: ...i suppose Italians really afected us in that :shakefist: ...and well fustanella is just a kind of skirt :)

[el22]

Well....we call fusta the skirt and fustani the dress :icon_ask: ...i suppose Italians really afected us in that :shakefist: ...and well fustanella is just a kind of skirt :)

You can try fustan (http://translate.google.com/#auto/en/fustan)and fustani (http://translate.google.com/#auto/en/fustani)in Google translate and see what language it detects
So, your theory is that Italians affected us, and we affected you?

[Pontios]

You can try fustan (http://translate.google.com/#auto/en/fustan)and fustani (http://translate.google.com/#auto/en/fustani)in Google translate and see what language it detects
So, your theory is that Italians affected us, and we affected you?

Google..... really? :picard2:

[el22]

Google..... really? :picard2:

:picard2: Yes, really! it's a statistical engine

[Queen B]

You can try fustan (http://translate.google.com/#auto/en/fustan)and fustani (http://translate.google.com/#auto/en/fustani)in Google translate and see what language it detects
So, your theory is that Italians affected us, and we affected you?
What YOU have to do with this?
Its an Italian word. Not Albanian

[el22]

What exactly don't you understand? How come you got the Albanian version and not the Italian one?

[Pontios]

:picard2: Yes, really! it's a statistical engine

By typing a word in Google translate and finding which language it will automatically select? I don't think that's so "statistical"...

[Queen B]

What exactly don't you understand? How come you got the Albanian version and not the Italian one?
We have foustani (dress), which is obviously the Italian version.
We have also fustanella, where the -ella ending is italian, and widely used in Italian language.
Still, don't see the ''Albanian'' version. You just use an Italian word as well . Italians also describe this particular dressing as fustanella.

[Pontios]

Dandelion has brought more evidence of it being an Italian word than you have of it being Albanian. Please find better evidence than some Google Translate automated language selector. I agree with her now... :lol:


-ella ending is italian, and widely used in Italian language.


Clear evidence...

[el22]

Since the word came from Italy, I don't see why we shouldn't.


Funstanella, etymologically comes from Italian fustagno.

Its origin dates back in ancient times, its the same type with chiton.

Btw, is this how it's written in Italian fustagno (http://translate.google.com/#auto/en/fustagno)?

[Trun]

We have foustani (dress), which is obviously the Italian version.
We have also fustanella, where the -ella ending is italian, and widely used in Italian language.
Still, don't see the ''Albanian'' version. You just use an Italian word as well . Italians also describe this particular dressing as fustanella.

We also have the word "fustan".

By the way, Animal Planet captured Onur at the moment of creation of the topic:

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6138/6034695282_d49ed9e898_z.jpg

[Adrian]

Greeks please.

Even your historians admits that fustanella is Albanian.

23kvAhdYgwY

[el22]

source: (http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts19_2/AH1861_2.html)


The history of the Greek Revolution would often be obscure unless the importance of the Albanian element, which pervaded military society in the Othoman empire, is fully appreciated. A trifling, but striking mark of the high position which the Albanians had gained was exhibited by the general adoption of their dress. Though a strong antipathy to the Mussulman Albanians had been always felt by the Othoman Turks, towards the end of the last century they began to pay an involuntary homage to the warlike reputation of the Albanian mercenaries. It became then not uncommon, in Greece and Macedonia, to see the children of the proudest Osmanlees dressed in the fustinello, or white kilt of the Tosks.

[el22]

We have foustani (dress), which is obviously the Italian version.
We have also fustanella, where the -ella ending is italian, and widely used in Italian language.
Still, don't see the ''Albanian'' version. You just use an Italian word as well . Italians also describe this particular dressing as fustanella.

I checked a couple of dictionaries dandelion, and it seems it's not Italian at all. It's just Albanian. ;)

Well, now that we sorted out who copied fustanella (the dress and the word) from whom, the next time we'll see how greek alexander was.
Apparently his contemporaneous were so shocked when he said "Thank the gods to have been born Greek" that they decided that even though the man had so much impressive achievements, this sentence was worth remembering for more than 2000 years.

[Linet]

i saw the enitre documentary... :chin:
....there is nothign of what you say there :eusa_eh:...and i saw every minute of it...i even saw 2-3 times some parts to be sure i get what they say.

I just have to add, that we know all the stuff they say :cool:...they say again and again greeks dont know this and that....well.. we know all of that :noidea:

[el22]

Scroll to 42:30
How did you missed it?

And let me ask, who are "they"? And how do you know (you wasn't born then)?