Estonian and Latvian stereotypes towards each other

[Äike]

full article (http://www.postimees.ee/?id=123254)


"Estonia in the eyes of Latvians, has a strategic position as a Nordic/Northern land, Scandinavian land. Latvia isn't a Nordic land or neither like Poland that is a Central European land." Tells Aivare, that these factors make the main ego-like difference for Latvians between Latvia and Estonia, as Latvia has no strategic position as a Nordic country or as a Central European country like Poland.

Estonians have almost no stereotypes towards Latvians. A joke stereotype of Latvians having 6 toes can't be taken very seriously. Estonians describe Latvia as a historic neighbor and a member of the Baltic countries.

"Latvians have way more stronger stereotypes towards Estonia and Estonians, then Estonians have towards Latvia, Estonians practically have no stereotypes for Latvia and Latvians. People, who look upwards towards others, makes more intensive stereotypes towards the people they look upwards too," explains Aivare.

Stereotypes of Estonians and Latvians towards each other

Estonian associations

Towards Latvia:

Riga
Bad roads
No islands
Ventspils
Saldejums
Karums


Towards Latvians:

Six toes
Love to eat fish
We love them
They are like cousins - weird, but we love them
You can't pick relatives


Latvian associations

Towards Estonia:

Successful businesses and economy
Advanced social- and medical system
IT-sphere
Spas
Islands
Munamägi (largest mountain in the Baltics)
Tartu University
Soviet memories
Liquor "Old Tallinn"
Kama (food)
More successful then Latvia


Towards Estonians:

Blond, light haired
Non-communicators
Slow (when contacting)
Rational
Foreseeing
Strategic
Patriotic
Careful
Determined
"Sexy Estonian boy"
Better then Latvians
Scandinavian like

[Absinthe]

I heard that whereas the road from Lithuania to Latvia is very good, the road that connects Latvia to Talinn is worse than greek country roads... that from a greek friend that very recently visited all three baltic countries :p

Anyways this stereotype information is funny and may prove to be useful to me as I am visiting the aforementioned countries next month :)

[Äike]

I heard that whereas the road from Lithuania to Latvia is very good, the road that connects Latvia to Talinn is worse than greek country roads... that from a greek friend that very recently visited all three baltic countries :p

Anyways this stereotype information is funny and may prove to be useful to me as I am visiting the aforementioned countries next month :)

Looks like something happened to his car tires when he crossed the border:rolleyes:

The roads here are fine, I know. You feel the roads more when driving a motorcycle(because it has two wheels) and I used to own one. I couldn't complain about the roads.

[Absinthe]

He was talking about the Latvian roads, not the Estonian ones :) He otherwise liked Latvia very much, much more than Lithuania, and also said the Latvian people are really nice and hospitable :)

By the way, do you have any good and affordable hotels in mind, to suggest in Talinn? I still haven't booked...

[Äike]

He was talking about the Latvian roads, not the Estonian ones :) He otherwise liked Latvia very much, much more than Lithuania, and also said the Latvian people are really nice and hospitable :)

Sorry, my bad.


By the way, do you have any good and affordable hotels in mind, to suggest in Talinn? I still haven't booked...


I have no idea:( I have never had the pleasure to be in any hotels of Tallinn, as I live here.

[Inese]

Yes the study is okay!! :) We like each other but there are differences and little stereotypes but it is okay! :wink A little fun is always good.

Hey Estonia is the smallest of the three Baltic countrys you know? :P And our roads are not very bad.

[Absinthe]

I found this...

WUgqXGu_gTQ

:D

[Äike]

Hey Estonia is the smallest of the three Baltic countrys you know? :P And our roads are not very bad.

Give us back Livonian and Estonian lands, then Latvia will be barely seen on the map;)

[The Lawspeaker]

I love those warm expressions of inner Baltic-brotherhood :D:D;)

[Äike]

I love those warm expressions of inner Baltic-brotherhood :D:D;)

It's a matter of respect. Latvians should respect their liberators. Latvia wouldn't have existed on the world map before 1991, if it wouldn't have been for the brave Estonian soldiers who fought alone against Russian commies, Latvian commies, Baltic Germans and the German Iron Division

Latvia would have had no territory without us. If Estonia wouldn't have been a democratic, Latvian loving nation, then Latvia would have belonged to Estonia 1920-1940. Or if Estonia wouldn't have cared about Latvia at all, then Latvia would have belonged to USSR/Germany.

[Inese]

It's a matter of respect. Latvians should respect their liberators. Latvia wouldn't have existed on the world map before 1991, if it wouldn't have been for the brave Estonian soldiers who fought alone against Russian commies, Latvian commies, Baltic Germans and the German Iron Division
Oh Karl oh Karl , that is no right point of view!! :rolleyes2: It is very very partial what you say now you know?? :confused: Estonia supported us a little bit in history but you say that Latvia is only here because of Estonian friendlyness and that is not true to say!! :coffee:

We Latvian had our own national movements ----- Latviesu tautas Atmoda, our own heros and our own fighters!! You want to read this maybe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_National_Awakening

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Latvians

Hm again you want to make it look that Estonia is the mother and father of all other Baltic country but it is not true!! Yes your people did much for us but we helped you also and we can live on our own. We have a comon danger with Russia and problems where we need solutions!! :)
160.000 Latvians were fighting with the Germans against Russian threat in world war 2 ----- that can be not said of the Estonian who had not many restiance power!! You know there were not 160.000 Estonian who took a gun to fight back Russian army!! Some Estonians decided to serve at Finish army but it was only 30.000 or something!?


Latvia would have had no territory without us. If Estonia wouldn't have been a democratic, Latvian loving nation, then Latvia would have belonged to Estonia 1920-1940. Or if Estonia wouldn't have cared about Latvia at all, then Latvia would have belonged to USSR/Germany.
Latvian national movement was there long before 1918!!

I like your country and i have no problems but you are over rating yourself a little bit okay?? :wink We sit in the same boat and our country is not a gift of Estonia.

[Angantyr]

I found this...

WUgqXGu_gTQ

:D

In Hungary, there is a feeling of brotherliness towards the Estonians and the Finns as they are the only three Finno-Ugric countries surrounded by Indo-Europeans. Accordingly, the feelings expressed in the little vignette are mutual.

[Äike]

Oh Karl oh Karl , that is no right point of view!! :rolleyes2: It is very very partial what you say now you know?? :confused: Estonia supported us a little bit in history but you say that Latvia is only here because of Estonian friendlyness and that is not true to say!! :coffee:

Latvia was totally annihilated in 1919, the Latvian government fled from Riga with boats.


We Latvian had our own national movements ----- Latviesu tautas Atmoda, our own heros and our own fighters!! You want to read this maybe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_National_Awakening

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Latvians

Yeah you had your freedom movements, but the Latvian army was too weak. Also, there were many Latvian reds. The Latvian army got beaten by the Reds and the Germans. That's why the Latvian government fled, all territory was lost.


Hm again you want to make it look that Estonia is the mother and father of all other Baltic country but it is not true!! Yes your people did much for us but we helped you also and we can live on our own. We have a comon danger with Russia and problems where we need solutions!! :)
160.000 Latvians were fighting with the Germans against Russian threat in world war 2 ----- that can be not said of the Estonian who had not many restiance power!! You know there were not 160.000 Estonian who took a gun to fight back Russian army!! Some Estonians decided to serve at Finish army but it was only 30.000 or something!?

Latvia had over 2 million people when Estonia had 1,1 million. 100 000 Estonian soldiers in the Waffen SS, 30 000 in the Finnish army by your words. 100 000 + 30 000 = 130 000. 130 000 from 1,1 million is around 12% of the population. 160 000 from 2,3 million is around 7% of the population. The Estonian people were more dedicated on defending the border. That's why we never failed, the Estonian Waffen SS was famous for being successful. But the Latvian Waffen SS wasn't so succesful:(

Do you know why Hitler pulled out the troops from Estonia? The troops who were killing way more numerous hordes of Russians daily on The Narwa front for almost half a year? Do you know why? Because the Latvian Waffen SS was too weak and got beaten by the Soviet Army. The regiments in Estonia had a very big change of being sacked, because the Latvian Waffen SS wasn't as superior as the less numerous Estonian Waffen SS. By the way, the Estonian Waffen SS was smaller in numbers and the Narwa front had way more Soviets attacking then it was on the Latvian front.
The battles on the Narwa front were one of the biggest in WW2.


Latvian national movement was there long before 1918!!
Yeah it was, but in the freedom war you got beaten by the Germans and the Russians. The Estonian army had to liberate Latvia.


I like your country and i have no problems but you are over rating yourself a little bit okay?? :wink We sit in the same boat and our country is not a gift of Estonia.

You can't overrate history. History is here to stay, it can't be changed. I recommend you not to argue with a person who is well read about history . As you don't live in Latvia, then I guess that you haven't gotten even a basic history course about Latvian history. If you would have, then you wouldn't be arguing with me.

[Äike]

In Hungary, there is a feeling of brotherliness towards the Estonians and the Finns as they are the only three Finno-Ugric countries surrounded by Indo-Europeans. Accordingly, the feelings expressed in the little vignette are mutual.

Yeah, the Indo-European languages couldn't survive in these areas. Indo-Europeans = Agriculture. Bogs cover 22% of Estonian territory. Estonia ranks second place in the world after Finland for having the most marshy land. Agriculture was almost impossible here.

In every part of Europe, where the land wasn't so hostile towards agriculture, the Finno-Ugrics were just assimilated.

http://www.finlit.fi/booksfromfinland/bff/399/img/map1.gif
European language distribution at the climax of the Ice Age and the following period, 23,000 to 8,000 BC
(Ba = Basque, U = Finno-Ugric, X's = unknown languages)

http://www.finlit.fi/booksfromfinland/bff/399/img/map2.gif
By 5,500 BC speakers of the small languages of central and southern Europe have adopted animal husbandry and the Indo-European language
(Ba = Basque, IE = Indo-European, U = Finno-Ugric)

http://www.finlit.fi/booksfromfinland/bff/399/img/map3.gif
European language distribution, 5,500–3,000 BC: the Indo-European languages have begun to spread among the hunter-fisher-gatherers of northern Europe
(B = Baltic, C = Celtic, FU = Finno-Ugrian, G = Germanic, I = Iberian, IE = Indo-European, S = Slavic)

http://www.finlit.fi/booksfromfinland/bff/399/img/map4.gif
European language distribution, present day
(Ba = Basque, C = Celtic, FU = Finno-Ugrian, G = Germanic, R = Romance, S = Slavic)

And that's the sad story of assimilation.

[Inese]

Latvia was totally annihilated in 1919, the Latvian government fled from Riga with boats.
Hm sorry you talk sh.. , now you make me really angry!! :mad:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_War_of_Independence

* 5 January: The first armed unit of Latvia, 1st Latvian Independent Battalion, under command of Oskars Kalpaks is formed. The provisional government retreats from Jelgava to Liepāja.

* 31 January: Most of Latvia is under the control of the Red Army, the Latvian government and German forces control the neighbourhood of Liepāja.

* 3 March: United German and Latvian forces commence counterattack against the forces of Soviet Latvia.
.
.
.

* 23 May: Latvian Independent Brigade marches into Riga.
.
.
.
* 8 October: West Russian Volunteer Army attacks Riga, taking Pārdaugava.


* 3 November: Latvian Army launches counter attack against West Russian Volunteer Army.

* 11 November: Latvian Army defeats West Russian Volunteer Army at Riga.

# 3 January: United forces of Latvia and Poland launch attack on Bolsheviks in Latgale and take Daugaupils.

# 13 January: Government of the Latvian SSR resigns.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian%E2%80%93Soviet_Peace_Treaty


" The Latvian–Soviet Peace Treaty also known as the Treaty of Riga, was signed on 11 August 1920 by representatives of the Republic of Latvia and Soviet Russia. It officially ended the Latvian War of Independence.

In article II of the treaty, the Soviet Russia recognized the independence of Latvia as inviolable "for all future time". It was broken when the Soviet Union invaded and occupied Latvia in 1940.


See??? Estonia was not big involved and we had our own success against Russia in war!!! Dont talk so much crap it harms the good relationship between us in the forum.



Yeah you had your freedom movements, but the Latvian army was too weak. Also, there were many Latvian reds. The Latvian army got beaten by the Reds and the Germans. That's why the Latvian government fled, all territory was lost.
blah blah blah look above!! :coffee:


Latvia had over 2 million people when Estonia had 1,1 million. 100 000 Estonian soldiers in the Waffen SS, 30 000 in the Finnish army by your words. 100 000 + 30 000 = 130 000. 130 000 from 1,1 million is around 12% of the population. 160 000 from 2,3 million is around 7% of the population. The Estonian people were more dedicated on defending the border. That's why we never failed, the Estonian Waffen SS was famous for being successful. But the Latvian Waffen SS wasn't so succesful:(
Oh yes now you want to divide us further and further!! All of Estonian Waffen-SS were super heros and our Latvian fighters were idiots who could not shoot a wall from 2 meter away!?? Of coooooouurseeeee!!! :rolleyes2:
Hear i say you something: Maybe your Estonian Waffen-SS had more sucess on paper in easier battles because Latvian SS had to fight many hard battles ----- you know, Latvian SS was fighting in the devensive war against Sovjet over the complete east front and later around Berlin and tried to defend the goverment quarter of Berlin with the German allys!! There can not be a harder battle like the battle for Berlin in April 1945!!! Where were the Estonian super heros in Berlin? Sorry no Estonian was there maybe they were pissing their pants!!

And only 70.000 were fighting on German side ----- 50.000 died. You use wrong numbers!!! :mad: 100.000 Estonian on German side is not true why do you calculate it brighter?

Latvian SS lost but they were fighting to the end!! And Estonia lost too you ended up as part of Sovjetunion very like Latvia....


You can't overrate history. History is here to stay, it can't be changed.
No history is written by the winner and you has learned a very nationalist history from Estonian view point.

I recommend you not to argue with a person who is well read about history . As you don't live in Latvia, then I guess that you haven't gotten even a basic history course about Latvian history. If you would have, then you wouldn't be arguing with me.
I can argue with everyone because i know some things and i dont let throw shit over my country ----- not from Russian, not from German, not from British and not from Estonians!!!

[The Lawspeaker]

Inese, there is nothing shameful about receiving help from your neighbors, is there ? For instance: the Estonians were not fighting alone either. Did you ever hear about the Heimosodat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heimosodat) ?


And when we in the Netherlands fought our war of independence we probably would have lost if it wasn't for an English intervention (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Dudley,_1st_Earl_of_Leicester#Governor-General_of_the_United_Provinces) in 1586-1588 and also French aid.

[Inese]

Inese, there is nothing shameful about receiving help from your neighbors, is there ? For instance: the Estonians were not fighting alone either. Did you ever hear about the Heimosodat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heimosodat) ?


Lawspeaker hear me: Receiving help from a neighbour is something else than saying "Estonian army did everything alone to save Latvia and won alone!! Latvia has to bow down before Estonia for all time"!! Understand?? O.o

Latvia army had own success and Estonia was not our only ally we had Poland England and France as supporter at Latvian Independe war also!! Look at the time line please okay??? :)

I dont say that Estonian were not helping us but Karl makes the image that Estonian did everything alone because all other were too stupid and could not harm a dead fly! :coffee: And that is very wrong and unfriendly to say.

[Jarl]

Hm sorry you talk sh.. , now you make me really angry!! :mad:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_War_of_Independence

:) I recommend you read that link throroughly and also this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Soviet_War

While 39, 000 Latvians and 50,000 Germans fought 50, 000 "White" Russian volunteers in Latvia the main Russian (Bolshevik) forces were engaged in Poland.

Latvia was saved because in 1919 Bolsheviks launched an all-out invasion against Poland hauling 7 armies and 1 cavalary corps, about 1 million troops, to the front and penetrating the country up to the Vistula. The Bolshevik commanders were Leon Trotsky, Mikhail Tukhachevsky and Siemion Budyonny.

Poland managed to raise approx 700 000 troops and defeated the invading Bolsheviks at the battle of Warsaw in 1920:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Warsaw_(1920)

The peace treaty was signed in Riga and gave Poland most of Belarus and West Ukraine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Riga

The Polish-Boleshevik war also made it easier for the Whites under general Denikin and, then Wrangel. With main Bolshevik forces tied up in Poland, they were able to survive one year longer and fight the Reds on Crimea. Poland also took Vilnus and a substantial chunk of Lithuania and fought the Bolsheviks in Letgalia. Bolshevikis signed a peace treaty with Latvia a year before that as they simply did not have enough troops to invade the Baltic states.

[EWtt]

11 November: Latvian Army defeats West Russian Volunteer Army at Riga.

Estonians did help Latvia to re-create an army. Without Estonian help Latvia wouldn't have stood much of a chance because in 1919 almost entire Latvia was under occupation.

June 29th: Estonians fight Landeswehr near Riga.
July 3rd: as Estonians crush Landeswehr and are about to enter Riga the Western allies demand a ceasefire between Estonia and Landeswehr.
July 5th: Latvians starts forming units, meanwhile Estonians are in charge of keeping Soviets back in Eastern Latvia.

October 8th: remains of Landeswehr and White Russian forces start advancing towards Riga with an intent to occupy both Estonia and Latvia. Latvian government asks Estonians to help.


See??? Estonia was not big involved and we had our own success against Russia in war!!!

Estonia was very involved. But of course Latvians fought as well!


Maybe your Estonian Waffen-SS had more sucess on paper in easier battles because Latvian SS had to fight many hard battles

The battles Estonians participated in were anything but easy. That's also one of the reasons they were very highly regarded by the German high command.

Battle of Narwa was also "easy" being outnumbered numerous times but managing to keep the Soviets back until they had advanced in Latvia.


Where were the Estonian super heros in Berlin? Sorry no Estonian was there maybe they were pissing their pants!!

Oh really? As far as I know Estonian Luftwaffe soldiers were there operating heavy artillery, fighting off hordes of Soviets.


Latvian SS lost but they were fighting to the end!!

So did we. We both also fought after the war ended. The last known Estonian forest brother drowned himself in a river back in 1978 to avoid being captured by the KGB.

[Äike]

See??? Estonia was not big involved and we had our own success against Russia in war!!! Dont talk so much crap it harms the good relationship between us in the forum.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Latvian_Independence_War_1919.03.06.svg/632px-Latvian_Independence_War_1919.03.06.svg.png
Latvian army is the yellow...
The small spot of yellow would have completely been destroyed if the Estonians wouldn't have started an offensive in Northern Latvia.





Oh yes now you want to divide us further and further!! All of Estonian Waffen-SS were super heros and our Latvian fighters were idiots who could not shoot a wall from 2 meter away!?? Of coooooouurseeeee!!! :rolleyes2:
Hear i say you something: Maybe your Estonian Waffen-SS had more sucess on paper in easier battles because Latvian SS had to fight many hard battles ----- you know, Latvian SS was fighting in the devensive war against Sovjet over the complete east front and later around Berlin and tried to defend the goverment quarter of Berlin with the German allys!! There can not be a harder battle like the battle for Berlin in April 1945!!! Where were the Estonian super heros in Berlin? Sorry no Estonian was there maybe they were pissing their pants!!

Hitler personally was amazed by the Estonian Waffen SS soldiers in Germany and Berlin. Estonia was lost, but the Estonian Waffen SS still fought with determination.

Pissing their pants? Give me an historic source that the Estonian Waffen SS was pissing their pants. You're the Latvian female version of Hors. You just start insulting when your version of history/world is false.


And only 70.000 were fighting on German side ----- 50.000 died. You use wrong numbers!!! :mad: 100.000 Estonian on German side is not true why do you calculate it brighter?

At the height of the Estonian Waffen SS, there were 100 000 Estonians in it.


Latvian SS lost but they were fighting to the end!! And Estonia lost too you ended up as part of Sovjetunion very like Latvia....

Latvian Waffen SS wasn't so good:(, if they would have fight to the end and not giving an inch of land to the Soviet Army. Then Hitler wouldn't have had to pull out troops from Estonia. Fighting to the end? No, they gave up and retreated, that's why the fear of sacking of the troops in Estonia (who had no problems holding the line).



No history is written by the winner and you has learned a very nationalist history from Estonian view point.
False.


I can argue with everyone because i know some things and i dont let throw shit over my country ----- not from Russian, not from German, not from British and not from Estonians!!!

Yeah, you do argue with everyone. You don't know anything about Latvia, you're an immigrant in Germany. Just accept it, Latvia would have been annexed by Germany/USSR if the Estonian army wouldn't have beaten the Germans and the Soviets in Northern Latvia. The Latvian army could actually reorganize when most of the hostile forces were defeated by the Estonians.
That's a good thing.

And please, Inese, stop this off-topic trolling.

[Jarl]

Thats what I managed to find out about Latvia in WWII:


Nazi Germany conscripted Latvia's inhabitants in their armed forces. During World War II more than 200,000 Latvian soldiers ended up in the rank and file of both occupation forces; approximately half of them (100,000) were killed on the battlefield.

In 1944, the Red Army lifted the siege of Leningrad and re-conquered the Baltic area along with much of Ukraine and Belarus. Nazi Germany began to suffer regular defeats on the eastern front and was pushed back to the west. During mid-July 1944, the Soviet Army once again crossed Latvia's pre-war eastern border, and by October 13 had re-captured Riga. By mid October, the German Army, which partly included the "Latvian Legion", was besieged in Kurzeme, in the "Courland Pocket".

Some 200,000 German troops held out in Courland. They were trapped between the Baltic Sea and the Soviet lines while the Soviet Army concentrated on attacks in East Prussia, Silesia, Pomerania, and ultimately Berlin. Colonel-General Heinz Guderian, the Chief of the German General Staff, insisted that the troops in Courland be evacuated by sea and used for the defense of the Reich. However, Hitler refused and ordered the German forces in Courland to hold out. He believed them necessary to protect German submarine bases along the Baltic coast. On January 15, 1945, Army Group Courland (German: Heeresgruppe Kurland) was formed under Colonel-General Dr. Lothar Rendulic. Until the end of the war, Army Group Courland (including divisions such as the Latvian Freiwiliger SS Legion) successfully defended the area in which they were besieged. It held out until May 8, 1945, when Colonel-General Carl Hilpert, the army group's last commander, surrendered to Marshal Leonid Govorov. At this time, the group consisted of some 31 divisions of varying strength. Approximately 203,000 troops of Army Group Courland were deported to Soviet prison camps in the east after surrender on 9 May.

Many Latvians fled through this battlefield in fishing boats and ships to Sweden and Germany, from where they emigrated to various parts of the world, mostly Australia and North America. Approximately 150,000 Latvians ended up in exile in the West.

Apparently the Germans held out until May the 8th. However, there is no mention of the Latvians. Had they been there they must have constituted a tiny fraction of the 200,000 troops, mostly German troops. Wiki states that the 1st SS Latvian division was fighting in Pomerania where it commited war crimes on Polish troops:


The Division fought on the Pomeranian Wall defences. At Podgaje, 2 February 1945, men of that division performed a war crime on Polish prisoners, burning in a barn 32 soldiers from 4th company, 3rd regiment infantry 1st Division Polish First Army tied up with a barbed wire.[1][2][3]

However out of fear of Russian revenge it fought well in the last months of the war, with a surviving battalion in the last defence of Berlin in mid-1945. Other remnants under Waffen-Standartenführer Vilis Janums surrendered to the advancing Americans at Güterglück near the Elbe River.

While the 2nd Latvian division was indeed a part of the Courland Group, but it could have numbered 11,000 - 20,000 troops (all Latvian forces within German army in 1944 numbered 80,000 men). However, it seems that the Courland Group was pretty much a German force. Here is a map:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/WW2_-_Liberation_of_Soviet_Baltic%2C_1944%2C_july-november_%28detailed%29.jpg

Courland Group was sealed off in Courland - the big pale red spot on the Southern banks of the Gulf of Riga. Estonia held until 26th September 1944, but was taken in the Tallinn Offensive:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tallinn_Offensive

There was 20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Estonian) fighting for the Tannenberg line and then at the Battle of Tartu. However, they have been withdrawn to Poland. Some were apparently allowed to stay:


When Adolf Hitler authorised the full withdrawal from Estonia in mid September, all men who wished to stay to defend their homes were released from service. Many chose this offer, fighting the Soviets alongside other Estonian units and then withdrawing into the forests to become the Forest Brothers. Severely weakened by this, the division was withdrawn to Neuhammer to be refitted.

Were there any Estonian formations left to defend Estonia? Apart from Estonian police and Estonian border defence forces? Article states:


By the beginning of the Tallinn Offensive on 17 September at the Emajõgi front, the II German Army Corps was down sized to a modest division (4600 men)[5][6] (...) the III SS (Germanic) Panzer Corps. Various pro-democracy Estonian troops formed from the men deserted from 20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Estonian), Finnish Infantry Regiment 200, Omakaitse civil defence, Estonian Border Defence, and Estonian Police.[4]


Pity it does not state the exact numbers of Estonian volunteers. As a matter of fact it does not even state the total number of Estonian-German forces at all. Quite odd really...



P.S.


you know, Latvian SS was fighting in the devensive war against Sovjet over the complete east front and later around Berlin and tried to defend the goverment quarter of Berlin with the German allys!! There can not be a harder battle like the battle for Berlin in April 1945!!!

;) Veterans of Stalingrad would most likely disagree...

[Jarl]

Where were the Estonian super heros in Berlin? Sorry no Estonian was there maybe they were pissing their pants!!!!!


:) Nooo... They were not in Berlin, but they (the 1st Estonian, 20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS) were encircled near Opole (Oppeln), in Silesia, fighting the Red Army until 31st of March 1945, so that Latvians could take a deeper breath before Zhukov, Ivan Konev and Konstanty Rokossowski took Berlin, Prague and East Germany.

[EWtt]

:) Nooo... They were not in Berlin, but they (the 1st Estonian, 20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS) were encircled near Opole (Oppeln), in Silesia, fighting the Red Army until 31st of March 1945, so that Latvians could take a deeper breath before Zhukov, Ivan Konev and Konstanty Rokossowski took Berlin, Prague and East Germany.

There were Estonians in Berlin, but not the 20th SS divison. There were the Luftwaffe soldiers who defended Seelow heights. And there have been many reports of other Estonian soldiers in Berlin (maybe some from the "remains" of the 20th division; some Estonians were known to be in the Nordland Panzergrenadier divison, etc.)

[Jarl]

There were Estonians in Berlin, but not the 20th SS divison. There were the Luftwaffe soldiers who defended Seelow heights. And there have been many reports of other Estonian soldiers in Berlin (maybe some from the "remains" of the 20th division; some Estonians were known to be in the Nordland Panzergrenadier divison, etc.)

Well, I think this sorts out the "pissing pants" thing for good ;)


P.S.

I read Latvians were forcefully conscripted into their "volunteer" legions...


The Latvian Legion was created in January 1943 on the orders of Adolf Hitler following a request by Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler. Technically, it was a volunteer unit, but one month after the unit was founded, German occupation authorities in Latvia started conscripting military age men as close to none were interested. They were given a choice between "volunteering" for SS Waffen legions, serving in the German army (Heer) as "auxiliaries" (laborers behind the front lines), commanded by German officers and often treated as subhumans, or being sent to a slave labor camp in Germany. Those who tried to avoid one of those options were arrested and sent to concentration camps.[2] As a result, only 15-20% of the soldiers serving in the legion were actual volunteers.[3]

With Nazi Germany losing the war, conscription was extended to larger and larger numbers of Latvians. The first conscription, in 1943, applied to all Latvian men born from 1919 to 1924. The subsequent conscriptions extended to Latvians born between 1906 and 1928.

...apparently.

[Inese]

:rolleyes2:

Hm let me see ----I say it is sickening what you do here, belittleing every Latvian effort as a whole group! :mad: Makes it fun?? :confused: No one was alive and active at the time , not our parents or grandparents! All you know is from books and people with a certein opinion of history.
You know Jarl brings the Polish view point because he is Polish no wonder that he says that the Poles did of course nearly everything in the war and the Latvian army had only to battle the stupid Russian rest....:rolleyes2: Karl and Ewtt bring the Estonian view point and say Estonia did everything alone and Latvia has done only nothing and could not achieve anything!! Everyone want to see his county in the best light on the shoulder of other countrys...:coffee:

I dont say that Poland did nothing or Estonia did nothing but i defend Latvian eforts and it is wrong to run down all Latvian powers.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Latvian_Independence_War_1919.03.06.svg/632px-Latvian_Independence_War_1919.03.06.svg.png
Latvian army is the yellow...
The small spot of yellow would have completely been destroyed if the Estonians wouldn't have started an offensive in Northern Latvia.
You put it complete out of context why dont you post the other maps?? The title of the map says that the orange part are combined German and Latvian troops that means that there were Latvian involved not only in the yellow spot but in the orange area too.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ce/Latvian_Independence_War_1919.11.11.svg/632px-Latvian_Independence_War_1919.11.11.svg.png

A little later in war the "small yellow" spot has sucess!!


Hitler personally was amazed by the Estonian Waffen SS soldiers in Germany and Berlin. Estonia was lost, but the Estonian Waffen SS still fought with determination.
Hm Hitler and other high ranks was amazed of Latvian Waffen SS too.


Pissing their pants? Give me an historic source that the Estonian Waffen SS was pissing their pants. You're the Latvian female version of Hors. You just start insulting when your version of history/world is false.
It was a saying and dont play the innocent now!! Dont bring Hors in here i am not insulting your country but you do insult mine in put disgrace on us.

:mad: You come here in complete arrogancy , saying that complete Latvia is in dept at Estonia for everything what happened and that we cant life for us own because holy Estonia had to lower itself to help the poor Latvians out of every problem in histoy

What do you expect please that i kiss your feet??? :rolleyes2: Look at the historic material! It is true that Estonian helped us but dont give the wrong impression that you are our eternal saviors and parents. It is not true!!


Yeah, you do argue with everyone. You don't know anything about Latvia, you're an immigrant in Germany.
Oh please and what has it do to with the topic?? :mad: It was not my decision.

Just accept it, Latvia would have been annexed by Germany/USSR if the Estonian army wouldn't have beaten the Germans and the Soviets in Northern Latvia.
Oh and why was holy Estonia annexed then a little later??? It changed nothing!!

And please, Inese, stop this off-topic trolling.
Stop be so arrogant and glorify your country excessive on costs of other countrys who had to fight the same problems.

That is all it is so stupid to have a argument about the topic!! Estonia was eaten by the USSR the same as my country and Lithuania. We should be standing together but you treat Latvia and our history like a retarded child. Shame you!

[EWtt]

The title of the map says that the orange part are combined German and Latvian troops that means that there were Latvian involved not only in the yellow spot but in the orange area too.

Those German troops fought for a United Baltic Duchy which was basically a German country in the Baltic area. They stood against our independence to implement their own imperialistic goals.


A little later in war the "small yellow" spot has sucess!!

Notice that a lot of that is the area Estonia liberated before and then gave under Latvian control:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/95/Latvian_Independence_War_1919.06.22.svg/300px-Latvian_Independence_War_1919.06.22.svg.png

This map only shows the extent of Estonian advance [purple] during the Battle of Cesis/Võnnu, it was greater later on:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/et/6/6c/Vabaduss%C3%B5da_.JPG


:mad: You come here in complete arrogancy , saying that complete Latvia is in dept at Estonia for everything what happened and that we cant life for us own because holy Estonia had to lower itself to help the poor Latvians out of every problem in histoy

If Estonians hadn't invaded Latvia then that would have been a threat to our independence as well - Red Latvians, Soviets and Baltic Duchy Germans already controlled almost entire Latvia. You can't say Latvians (who wanted independence) didn't need our help and could have managed themselves.


What do you expect please that i kiss your feet??? :rolleyes2: Look at the historic material! It is true that Estonian helped us but dont give the wrong impression that you are our eternal saviors and parents. It is not true!!

I personally don't expect anything except respect for those Estonian troops who sacrificed their lives for an independent Latvia. I also respect Latvians who managed to reorganize their army and liberate the entire country. ;)

Saying Estonian soldiers didn't do much and basically weren't important is wrong. :(

[Jarl]

You know Jarl brings the Polish view point because he is Polish no wonder that he says that the Poles did of course nearly everything in the war and the Latvian army had only to battle the stupid Russian rest....

Well, what can I do? I did not write the history Inese. The truth is that Poland allied with Semen Petlura's Ukrainian army, invaded Russia in 1920 in Operation Kiev, taking most Belarus and Ukraine, West of Dnieper. The Bolsheviks did not have any choice. They had to act or else they would face loss of whole Ukraine, which was by far their main grain and food-producing province. This would equal to annihilation. They launched a counter-offensive engaging most of their forces - nearly a million men. The were beaten and their armies were obliterated, some of them encircled, some sealed off in East Prussia having retreated there to avoid the pursuit. Then they were beaten at the battle of Warsaw and then at the Niemen battle. In the aftermath, they were no longer able to sustain the war and had to sue for peace giving massive concessions to Poland.

The truth is that the German Freikorps, aided by 30-40, 000 Latvians, could have had its little victory over 50,000 disorganised White volunteers... But in the long run it would mean nothing. Whoever would have won - the Whites or Freikorps/Latvians, they would still have been wiped out by the Bolsheviks who had millions of soldiers at their disposal. If Poland had lost the war in 1920, and had not managed to repulse the Bolsheviks (who lost 300,000 out of 0,8-1 million troops) Lithuania's and Latvia's fate would look very, very grim.

P.S.

Seriously, just ask any history professor who specialises in the history of Revolution 1917 abd Bolshevik Russia at your school or university about that war and its aftermath. In 1920 Bolsheviks were not aiming just for Poland. Trotsky wanted to capture Czechoslovakia and Germany to launch a global socialist revolution.

[Äike]

:rolleyes2:

Hm let me see ----I say it is sickening what you do here, belittleing every Latvian effort as a whole group! :mad: Makes it fun?? :confused: No one was alive and active at the time , not our parents or grandparents! All you know is from books and people with a certein opinion of history.
You know Jarl brings the Polish view point because he is Polish no wonder that he says that the Poles did of course nearly everything in the war and the Latvian army had only to battle the stupid Russian rest....:rolleyes2: Karl and Ewtt bring the Estonian view point and say Estonia did everything alone and Latvia has done only nothing and could not achieve anything!! Everyone want to see his county in the best light on the shoulder of other countrys...:coffee:

I dont say that Poland did nothing or Estonia did nothing but i defend Latvian eforts and it is wrong to run down all Latvian powers.



You put it complete out of context why dont you post the other maps?? The title of the map says that the orange part are combined German and Latvian troops that means that there were Latvian involved not only in the yellow spot but in the orange area too.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ce/Latvian_Independence_War_1919.11.11.svg/632px-Latvian_Independence_War_1919.11.11.svg.png

A little later in war the "small yellow" spot has sucess!!


Hm Hitler and other high ranks was amazed of Latvian Waffen SS too.


It was a saying and dont play the innocent now!! Dont bring Hors in here i am not insulting your country but you do insult mine in put disgrace on us.

:mad: You come here in complete arrogancy , saying that complete Latvia is in dept at Estonia for everything what happened and that we cant life for us own because holy Estonia had to lower itself to help the poor Latvians out of every problem in histoy

What do you expect please that i kiss your feet??? :rolleyes2: Look at the historic material! It is true that Estonian helped us but dont give the wrong impression that you are our eternal saviors and parents. It is not true!!


Oh please and what has it do to with the topic?? :mad: It was not my decision.

Oh and why was holy Estonia annexed then a little later??? It changed nothing!!

Stop be so arrogant and glorify your country excessive on costs of other countrys who had to fight the same problems.

That is all it is so stupid to have a argument about the topic!! Estonia was eaten by the USSR the same as my country and Lithuania. We should be standing together but you treat Latvia and our history like a retarded child. Shame you!

Estonia liberated Latvia and gave Estonian controlled territories to the re-organized Latvian army. The Latvian army didn't exist before the Estonians arrived, because the Latvian army was defeated by the Germans and by the Russians. The Latvian army was practically re-created from scratch and the Estonians helped them of course.

Stop arguing history, it's pointless and just makes you look silly. I'm sorry that you don't like the history of Latvia, but we can't rewrite history. Or can we?

[Loki]

Everyone want to see his county in the best light on the shoulder of other countrys...:coffee:


This is true, and hence there are always two sides to a story. Or three or four. ;)

[Inese]

Stop arguing history, it's pointless and just makes you look silly. I'm sorry that you don't like the history of Latvia, but we can't rewrite history. Or can we?
Oh i can proud say that i love the history of Latvia but you have a problem with some facts of our history!! All i want is respect for Latvian eforts in the past and that you not glorify your own country on our cost!!! :mad: You know i am not the one who say that Latvian army was worth total nothing and that Estonia did everything near alone. You show no respect for our history and you see your country some level above my country. You look down to Latvian history and make total arrogant remarks when i want to tell you that you should not run down the history of my country!! Tousand and tousand of Latvian people and soldiers were fighting and dying for our nation and for other Balt countries and you dis-honor all what they did when you talk " Estonia is the savor and all other had to rely on them" Estonia is a very nice country but you are not the holy grail!! :rolleyes2: Estonia had no chance against Germany or Russia it is a small county and small folk like Latvian or Lithuanian.

Your remarks divide us dont you see it?? i want no argument but you come here from nothing and talk about how bad Latvian soldiers were. Sorry but Estonian soldier were not winning over Russia or do i miss the information that Estonian soldiers had a triumph march trough the streets of Moscow??? :coffee:

I have resignd to the fact that people here look down on me ---- i can not write foreign language very good and dont know how to put my mind in sentences often but that dont prevent me from saying what i need to say okay??

Again i tell you that i respect Estonia and the achivements of Estonian army in all the wars!! I am thankful for the help and the unifing Baltic pride but you were no super heros and we were no helpless children and canon fooder....

http://www.axishistory.com/fileadmin/user_upload/w/wss-15-nationalday.jpg

You honor your soldiers and i honor our soldiers and the German soldiers. Dont talk bad about us and i dont talk about Estonian!!

[Jamt]

I sure like to hear more Estonian and Latvian stereotypes towards each other and less war stuff.

I was surprised that Estonian is so similar to Finnish. Do Latvians consider Estonians to be Finnish-like people?

[Inese]

I was surprised that Estonian is so similar to Finnish. Do Latvians consider Estonians to be Finnish-like people?
Yes we do.

[Äike]

Oh i can proud say that i love the history of Latvia but you have a problem with some facts of our history!! All i want is respect for Latvian eforts in the past and that you not glorify your own country on our cost!!! :mad: You know i am not the one who say that Latvian army was worth total nothing and that Estonia did everything near alone. You show no respect for our history and you see your country some level above my country. You look down to Latvian history and make total arrogant remarks when i want to tell you that you should not run down the history of my country!! Tousand and tousand of Latvian people and soldiers were fighting and dying for our nation and for other Balt countries and you dis-honor all what they did when you talk " Estonia is the savor and all other had to rely on them" Estonia is a very nice country but you are not the holy grail!! :rolleyes2: Estonia had no chance against Germany or Russia it is a small county and small folk like Latvian or Lithuanian.

Have you ever read any books about the Estonian or Latvian freedom war? I have read several, so I actually know what happened. Is it so bad that Estonia helped Latvia?
http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/2448/estonianfreedomwar.png
http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/963/latvianfreedomwar.png

Accept the fact that the actions of the Estonian army were one of the main reasons why Latvia got independence in 1920. Forget your inferiority complexes.


Your remarks divide us dont you see it?? i want no argument but you come here from nothing and talk about how bad Latvian soldiers were. Sorry but Estonian soldier were not winning over Russia or do i miss the information that Estonian soldiers had a triumph march trough the streets of Moscow??? :coffee:

Latvian soldiers were not bad, from all the nationalities that the Estonians had to fight with. The Latvian Reds were the toughest. It's just that the Estonian soldiers were very good, that doesn't make Latvian soldiers bad. And by the way, the Estonian front line was a few kilometers away from St. Petersburg for some time. If the goal of the Estonian government would have been offense and claiming new territories, then Estonia would have gone deeper into Russia. But it was the Estonian war of Independence, claiming new territories was not an objective.


I have resignd to the fact that people here look down on me ---- i can not write foreign language very good and dont know how to put my mind in sentences often but that dont prevent me from saying what i need to say okay??

Your English skills aren't that bad. Just try reading a few books about the Latvian Freedom War and you'll stop arguing against me.


Again i tell you that i respect Estonia and the achivements of Estonian army in all the wars!! I am thankful for the help and the unifing Baltic pride but you were no super heros and we were no helpless children and canon fooder....

No one were super heroes and Latvians weren't helpless children or cannon fodder. Just because Estonia liberated Latvia, doesn't make Latvia worse then Estonia. Don't take it as an insult that the Latvian soldiers didn't succeed, history isn't fair. The world isn't fair.




You honor your soldiers and i honor our soldiers and the German soldiers. Dont talk bad about us and i dont talk about Estonian!!

Why German soldiers? They were one of the occupiers of Latvia, who had to be beaten out, to liberate Latvia. When you don't realize that the Germans were one of the occupiers of Latvia, then you seriously don't know anything about the Latvian freedom war.

The Estonian forces had to fight a very hard battle against the Germans to liberate Riga.

[Äike]

I sure like to hear more Estonian and Latvian stereotypes towards each other and less war stuff.

I was surprised that Estonian is so similar to Finnish. Do Latvians consider Estonians to be Finnish-like people?

Latvians surely know that the Estonian culture is quite similar to the Finnish culture. And Estonia also has cultural ties with some Scandinavian lands (Sweden and Denmark).

[Inese]

Have you ever read any books about the Estonian or Latvian freedom war? I have read several, so I actually know what happened. Is it so bad that Estonia helped Latvia?
Hm cant i write that people understand me or do you want to not understand me??? O.o :rolleyes2: Please how often should i repeat that i am thankful for the help the Estonians gave us in our history!!!?? I am thankful and i know your people helped us. But that is not what makes me angry!! It makes me angry that you say you not only helped us but you say our people and soldier were very incompetent and Estonians liberated us alone. :mad:

Again i tell you that liberation was a extreme wish of nearly all Latvians!! A liberation needs people who want to get liberated you know?? If your story is true why we are no part of southern Estonia hmmm?? Because there would be no need for a Latvian state without Latvians with a strong wish for freedom and a own nation. Latvian Army organised and made the final punshes to Russians!! Estonia helped us but you are not our babysitter....

It is the last time that i try to explain that to you okay??


Accept the fact that the actions of the Estonian army were one of the main reasons why Latvia got independence in 1920. Forget your inferiority complexes.
Yes a important reason but not the only reason!! Oh and thank for the hint i give you one hint back: Forget your superiority complexes.


Your English skills aren't that bad. Just try reading a few books about the Latvian Freedom War and you'll stop arguing against me.
My family and grandpartens told me much and my father has books about history. I am younger but i am not stupid. But we have no Estonian books....


Just because Estonia liberated Latvia, doesn't make Latvia worse then Estonia.
No you helped us but we liberated ourselfes!! Can you understand that please some time in the future?? :confused:


Why German soldiers? They were one of the occupiers of Latvia, who had to be beaten out, to liberate Latvia. When you don't realize that the Germans were one of the occupiers of Latvia, then you seriously don't know anything about the Latvian freedom war.
I was speaking general and not only from indepence war!!:coffee: The Germans did many good things in Latvia and some bad things. In last worldwar they were great with some little dark spots in Baltic countrys.
How do you think that i have hate for Germans when one of my grandfathers is German and a part of family too??? I say it open that Germans are cool i love them!! :thumb001:

[Treffie]

Thread closed as per OP's request.

[Äike]

I asked for this thread to be unlocked, because I got an angry PM from some Latvian girl.

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/2734/priv.png

I want to point out that the stereotypes of Latvians towards Estonians and vice-versa isn't my fantasy.

The research was done by a half-Estonian, half-Latvian woman living in Riga. She comes from a bilingual family and was thus the perfect person for such a research.

I also found an English PDF (http://dspace.utlib.ee/dspace/bitstream/10062/9205/1/Aivarekatri.pdf) about her research. I haven't read all of it yet, but it looks quite interesting.

[The Lawspeaker]

Who is this "opaps" ?

[Äike]

Who is this "opaps" ?

I have no idea, but she said that she joined TA just to say that I'm a fool. :p

[esaima]

I asked for this thread to be unlocked, because I got an angry PM from some Latvian girl.



And her anger is motivated.


Estonians and Latvians aren´t so different.The key question is that Estonian and Latvians simply do not know much i.e nothing about each other.>>So, it is logical that the stereotypes may be like you are describing yhem.

But good luck to you, Karl seeking the differences. And ridiculizing and weirdoizing Estonians- your own ethnicity, good luck.

[EWtt]

Talking of the relationships between Estonians and Latvians...

An ages old Estonian saying goes something like "Every proper Estonian has a skin of a Latvian hanging on his wall".

But on the other hand we also have a saying "We cannot do without Latvia." ;)

[Matuo]

I asked for this thread to be unlocked, because I got an angry PM from some Latvian girl.
She is totally right that you know little but talk big. Very precise words!

In fact, I didn't know too that Latvians consider Estonians as better than themselves. Yes, I knew about that Estonia is economically more succesful country than Latvia (and everybody in Latvia admits that), but not that Estonians are better...

About sexy Estonian boy thing...Such opinion (as that Estonian guys can be attractive and sexy) among Latvians is heard. It is heard also about sexy Estonian girls. It is just sad that you are almost abusing it. Latvians are saying so kind, nice words about Estonians, but you are nearly using them as weapons against Latvians. How low of you.

It's really not pleasant to read your posts.

Where this hateness against Latvians come from, I wonder?

[Äike]

And her anger is motivated.


Estonians and Latvians aren´t so different.The key question is that Estonian and Latvians simply do not know much i.e nothing about each other.>>So, it is logical that the stereotypes may be like you are describing yhem.

But good luck to you, Karl seeking the differences. And ridiculizing and weirdoizing Estonians- your own ethnicity, good luck.

Actually, Estonians do not know much about Latvia and Latvians. While at the same time, Latvians do know more about Estonia and Estonians. Just go read the 200 page PDF and stop making dumb posts.


She is totally right that you know little but talk big. Very precise words!

In fact, I didn't know too that Latvians consider Estonians as better than themselves. Yes, I knew about that Estonia is economically more succesful country than Latvia (and everybody in Latvia admits that), but not that Estonians are better...

About sexy Estonian boy thing...Such opinion (as that Estonian guys can be attractive and sexy) among Latvians is heard. It is heard also about sexy Estonian girls. It is just sad that you are almost abusing it. Latvians are saying so kind, nice words about Estonians, but you are nearly using them as weapons against Latvians. How low of you.

It's really not pleasant to read your posts.

Where this hateness against Latvians come from, I wonder?

I will repeat my words. The stereotypes aren't made up by me, I originally translated parts of an Estonian article, as I found it interesting.

I posted a PDF document (http://dspace.utlib.ee/dspace/bitstream/10062/9205/1/Aivarekatri.pdf), which is almost 200 pages long and you still think I am hateful? Go to page 132 in the PDF (http://dspace.utlib.ee/dspace/bitstream/10062/9205/1/Aivarekatri.pdf) and you'll find out that I am not being hateful.

I didn't want to offend anyone by creating this thread, I'm sorry if I did. Although I still think that it isn't my fault that the Latvians in the survey said that Estonia and Estonians are more successful than Latvia and Latvians.

[Inese]

opaps and Maturo are totally right but more words to Lenna are wasted time! He has his bubble and lives in it with a big smile.


Who is this "opaps" ?
No east asian lady, not important to you :coffee:

[Äike]

opaps and Maturo are totally right but more words to Lenna are wasted time! He has his bubble and lives in it with a big smile

I posted an almost 200-page PDF which thoroughly researched Estonian and Latvian stereotypes towards each other. The researcher is more Latvian than an Estonian, as she lives in Riga.

You can hate me as much as you want, but I didn't lie about the Latvian stereotypes towards Estonia and Estonians.

[Treffie]

No east asian lady, not important to you :coffee:

Here, I think you need something to drink

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/63/203128945_eda8531579.jpg?v=0

[The Lawspeaker]

No east asian lady, not important to you :coffee:

http://www.cbc.ca/arts/images/pics/tong1.jpg

[Äike]

LOL this made my day
u are the most perfect people on earth, no doubt

Here's the 200 page PDF (http://dspace.utlib.ee/dspace/bitstream/10062/9205/1/Aivarekatri.pdf) . :coffee:


Estonians aren't "the most perfect" people on earth, but the Latvians think we are. :D

[Radola]

After reading this topic I must say that I´m quite surprised about Estonian - I mean Karl´s views, opinions.
I have to agree with most of posts of Inese, she´s absolutely right. I don´t see the point in accusing Latvians and speaking of them like they are übermenschen. The topic is just ridiculous from its very beginning.

[Radola]

After reading this topic I must say that I´m quite surprised about Estonian - I mean Karl´s views, opinions.
I have to agree with most of posts of Inese, she´s absolutely right. I don´t see the point in accusing Latvians and speaking of them like they are übermenschen. The topic is just ridiculous from its very beginning.

LoL, of course I wanted to write untermenschen, thanks for noticing Osweo:D

[Heretik]

That's just Karl, don't worry Radola. :D

[Äike]

After reading this topic I must say that I´m quite surprised about Estonian - I mean Karl´s views, opinions.
I have to agree with most of posts of Inese, she´s absolutely right. I don´t see the point in accusing Latvians and speaking of them like they are übermenschen. The topic is just ridiculous from its very beginning.


LoL, of course I wanted to write untermenschen, thanks for noticing Osweo:D


That's just Karl, don't worry Radola. :D

I have never said that Latvians are inferior to anyone, I am just saying that they are Balts and aren't like Estonians. Not being like Estonians is very far from being "untermenschen". I have no idea why some people even get ideas like that.

The thing is, Estonians are very proud of their unique ethnic identity and they do not like being lumped together with people who they are not similar with. Although Estonians are very similar to Finns, I and other Estonians would take offence if you said that Estonians are Finns. Thus this doesn't apply only to people who aren't similar to us.

[Heretik]

The thing is, Estonians are very proud of their unique ethnic identity and they do not like being lumped together with people who they are not similar with. Although Estonians are very similar to Finns, I and other Estonians would take offence if you said that Estonians are Finns. Thus this doesn't apply only to people who aren't similar to us.

:thumb001: :thumb001:

[Talvi]

Actually, being called a Finn would be a nice change from being called a Balt, a Russian or something else like that.

[Eldritch]

Ēriks, your trolling on all Estonia-related topics is incredibly lame and embarrassing, and it reflects very badly upon not only yourself, but your nationality.

[Äike]

Actually, being called a Finn would be a nice change from being called a Balt, a Russian or something else like that.

Indeed, saying that Estonians are Balts of Russians make no sense at all. While saying that Estonians are Finns, makes sense. Because they are our hõimurahvas/kin. But I still prefer if people would just call us Estonians.

Calling Estonians, Slavs/Russians - Very ignorant

Calling Estonians, Balts - ignorant

Calling Estonians, Finns - slightly ignorant

Calling Estonians, Estonians - not ignorant/educated

[Kanasyuvigi]

Talking about stereotypes, in my country the Baltic area is terra incognita for 99% of the people. Pribaltica seems like something distant, exotic, and hard-to-remember-the-capital (Riga, Tallin, Vilnjus :D)Fortunately I've learned a lot about the area, while reading this forum (and the old Stirpes). It's no longer just Lithu-Latvo-Estonia in my mind :D And although we are so different, we still share some historical figures likeJonas Basanavičius the father of the Lithuanian national revival movement and also a political activist of the Democratic Party in Bulgaria. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonas_Basanavi%C4%8Dius

[Äike]

Talking about stereotypes, in my country the Baltic area is terra incognita for 99% of the people. Pribaltica seems like something distant, exotic, and hard-to-remember-the-capital (Riga, Tallin, Vilnjus :D)Fortunately I've learned a lot about the area, while reading this forum (and the old Stirpes).

It's actually Tallinn, but many people make that mistake. :) The name Tallinn derives from "Taani linn", which means "Danish town" in translation. As a big chunk of Tallinn's history is Danish.


It's no longer just Lithu-Latvo-Estonia in my mind :D And although we are so different, we still share some historical figures likeJonas Basanavičius the father of the Lithuanian national revival movement and also a political activist of the Democratic Party in Bulgaria. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonas_Basanavi%C4%8Dius

Define the word "we" in your post.

[Kanasyuvigi]

"We" in this case means the peoples of the Balkans and the peoples of the Baltic area as a whole.
Sorry for my ignorance about Tallinn, I didn't knew that your fierce enemies, the Russians, write it with only one "n" :D
And I've got a question, Karl, except for the common Russian threat, is there anything else which unites the Baltic states, is there a Baltic feeling, or you as an Estonian feel closer related to the Finns? (Lithuanians and Latvians speak very close, mutually intelligible to some extent IE languages, while Estonians seem a little bit isolated from Finland by Russia's sea outlet at St. Petersburg)

[Talvi]

"We" in this case means the peoples of the Balkans and the peoples of the Baltic area as a whole.
Sorry for my ignorance about Tallinn, I didn't knew that your fierce enemies, the Russians, write it with only one "n" :D
And I've got a question, Karl, except for the common Russian threat, is there anything else which unites the Baltic states, is there a Baltic feeling, or you as an Estonian feel closer related to the Finns? (Lithuanians and Latvians speak very close, mutually intelligible to some extent IE languages, while Estonians seem a little bit isolated from Finland by Russia's sea outlet at St. Petersburg)


Not Karl here but personally, I dont feel anything towards Lithuanians and Latvian.
The main reason one would is outsiders keep reinforcing the idea of "the Baltic states".

[Äike]

"We" in this case means the peoples of the Balkans and the peoples of the Baltic area as a whole.

This guy Jonas makes Bulgaria and Lithuania more related, it is not even slightly related to Estonia.

A cultural individual from Germany, who is active in Italy, doesn't make Belgium closer to Italy.


Sorry for my ignorance about Tallinn, I didn't knew that your fierce enemies, the Russians, write it with only one "n" :D
And I've got a question, Karl, except for the common Russian threat, is there anything else which unites the Baltic states, is there a Baltic feeling, or you as an Estonian feel closer related to the Finns? (Lithuanians and Latvians speak very close, mutually intelligible to some extent IE languages, while Estonians seem a little bit isolated from Finland by Russians sea outlet at St. Petersburg)

There is no common Baltic feeling(read more posts and you would know this). I view Lithuanians as any other Europeans, not as nothing "close". Estonians and Finns are very close and Estonians also consider themselves to be culturally related to other Nordic people(Scandinavians).

I'll copy one of EWtt's post (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=219468&postcount=38)s.


For many Estonians "the Baltic States" is mostly an artificial concept.

We can talk of some cultural similarities with Latvia due to shared (Northern) German cultural impact and Lutheran influence. And of course Latvians have assimilated a great deal of Finnics (Livonians). Lithuania is closer to Poland, being Catholic and having had different historical developments. Now, even though nowadays most Estonians aren't religious, Lutheran influence has been important, this connects us with Scandinavia and the rest of Northern Europe and formed a basis for a lot of our values. This historical influence set us apart from Orthodox Eastern Europe and Catholic Europe. I think it is safe to say the Estonians' general mentality and character differs considerably from Eastern/Central/Southern Europeans and is surely more typical of the countries lying here in the North.

One of the main reasons why many Estonians consider Estonia to be Nordic (in one sense or another) is that Estonians have historically shared a lot with our brother nation, the Finns (from our ancient religion and kannel/kantele to sauna culture, myths of Kalevipoeg/Kalevala, Midsummer traditions, etc.) Estonians have long ago referred to the country as being Nordic ("Põhjamaa"), and during the 19th to early 20th centuries the term was almost synonymous with Northern Europe. The contacts with Scandinavia have a long history, and Estonia has experienced both Danish and Swedish rule. One might say that historically Estonia has had more contacts with Denmark (and perhaps even with the Icelandic vikings) than Finland.

While Finland for the most part experienced Swedish rule, the dominant element in the Estonian society were the Germans. However, some parts of Scandinavia were also part of the Hanseatic League. When Estonians rebelled against the German lords in 1344, the Swedes became Estonians' allies (though unfortunately their military force arrived too late). During the 19th century, some political thinkers thought about Estonia becoming a part of the Swedish kingdom again (and Estonians still recall the "good old Swedish days"). Latvia also experienced Swedish rule, but didn't have long-term Swedish settlement. The Western Estonian islands and coastal areas have experienced strong Scandinavian influence, though Swedes also settled other parts of Estonia. Estonia has also had significant Finnish settlement in history, but they became assimilated. Similarly, Estonians have gone over the Gulf of Finland in the past, the South-Western dialects of the Finnish language have genuine Estonian influence.

And of course there were Finnish, Danish and Swedish volunteers in our Independence War. In that era there were calls for Finland and Estonia to become a unified country, even our president supported the idea. The political views of the Estonian population were influenced by the Nordic countries prior to WWII. And of course, there wasn't such a great development gap between Estonia & Finland or even Estonia & Scandinavia back then.

If Estonia had not been illegally occupied by the Soviet Union, we would most likely be considered a Nordic country nowadays. Finland successfully made the shift from "Baltic" to "Nordic", and had Estonia remained independent, there wouldn't have been a more suitable choice here as well. Nowadays Estonia is economically closely tied to Scandinavia and Finland, most foreign investments come from the Nordic countries. Scandinavian-Estonian co-operation was behind Skype as well.

Sure, Estonia endured many years of dark occupation and for some it might be even ridiculous to hear about this small country being historically close to the Nordic countries. Most people just don't know anything about our history and thus don't understand why many of us tend to affiliate more with the Nordic countries rather than Balts (Latvians, Lithuanians) or Central/Eastern Europeans.

[Äike]

Not Karl here but personally, I dont feel anything towards Lithuanians and Latvian.
The main reason one would is outsiders keep reinforcing the idea of "the Baltic states".

No Estonian feels related to the Balts, because we aren't Baltic and they aren't Finnic. I view them as other Europeans, like the French, the Poles, the Italians etc. I do not feel related to them.

[Peerkons]

No Estonian feels related to the Balts
Speak for yourself.
I personally know one estonian who does feels related to us.
I don't think that he is the only one. :)

[Äike]

Speak for yourself.
I personally know one estonian who does feels related to us.
I don't think that he is the only one. :)

I, EWtt, Simonsson and Talvi(read her last post in this thread) disagree with that one Estonian. I think that this one Estonian makes his unique posts for his own amusement.

[Peerkons]

That one estonian isn't eisaamaa

[Talvi]

That one estonian isn't eisaamaa

Whats your deal anyway????

[esaima]

For many Estonians "the Baltic States" is mostly an artificial concept.
Indeed.Many Estonians do not wanted to be labeled as Baltic.And especially those who tend to be more anti-Russian and nationalistic.And they tend to distance from everything which can be considered as "soviet". And usually those people are more active in internetforums.
I am not that polititical thus i think i am not the most typical Estonian internet warrior thus i think i describe the things simply as i see them.
Look, my idea here has not been to propagate any Baltic identity because I don´t identify myself as a Balt and know well that Estonians aren´t Baltic because they are Finnic.It is logical-all grops identify themselves via language.To treat Estonians as Baltic-it is about same than to treat, let´s say Hungarians as Slavic.
But yet, in my eyes Hungary shares many similarities with Slovakia for instance.:shrug:And with all neighbouring countries which surround it. Simply objectively- it shares.;)
Look, I am not talking about the identity but I have tried describe simply objective reality.Identity and similarity/differences are two different things.
And an objective reality for me is that I can recognize Finns and sometimes een a single Finn at the streets of Tallinn even if the dont speak anything in Finnish.;)At the same time Latvians look basically same than Estonians.It doesn´t mean that I feel me as an ethno-linguistical Balt.
The main conclusion what we can make about those stereotype-studies is that...Latvia is somewhat... less northern than Estonia...How banal!Did we really need a study for that?It is possible to look at the map...Latvia is more southern, yes, it is about 200km more southern.:rolleyes:
May I also discover an America and say that Finland is more northern than Estonia.And Finns are more northern (or nordic or nordid or whatever)than Estonians...
And we should not forget that a typical Estonian really knows very few about Latvia.Typical internet Estonian thinks Latvians=Lithuanians.And Lithuanians=Poles.
And I believe there are many Latvians and Lithuanians who think Estonians=Finn.lol.I´d call it ignorancy
I think I also don´t know much about Latvia although I have been there maybe for 30 times.But I kindly suggest to go there.Especially Karl.



For many Estonians "the Baltic States" is mostly an artificial concept.
well, one may cherry pick and emphazise those differences with Latvians as much as on wants but it all doesn´t make Estonians ethno-linguistically Nordic
like Karl wishes.
Karl, btw, is not interested in Finns so much but he uses Finns and their similar language just as a trampoline to make Estonians more nordic. Estonian and Finnish languages aren´t dialects btw.They are as different as Swedish and German.
I am yes against all sorts of Estonian Nordic wannabeism and see posters who propagate it as beggars.Estonians as "western Swedes"...Swedes are overrated by Estonians because they weren´t historically as hated as Germans not talking about Russians and connections with them as well.That unmotivated Swedophilia needs a longer discussion or better a real study.
I dont think that Danmark is for my some reason more close than any other small, west-European Germanic country, than, lets say Netherlands.There is really nothing metaphysically "Nordic" that makes me believe that Denmark is mentally much closer to me than Holland is.I really do not understand what is Nordic identity and what should i feel. I don´t feel me even as a Finn...:rolleyes:
But I think I have told it all already before... for so many times...
:bored0::bored0::bored0:It would be really not a very rational idea to "discuss" with Karl about it again and again and again...
My English isn´t the most oxfordian but I one can re-read my old posts if one wants.

[Talvi]

Ive been hanging around with exchange students a lot, especially Koreans and Japanese... and most of them have thought that Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia are practically the same, with the same language(which usually they think is Russian). I met a French dude who came here and was shocked to hear that Latvians and Estonians dont actually speak the same language.

So this is the attitude of the average foreigner. This is how I realized that "Baltic" has turned from a geographical term into a cultural one, and Im so sick of people thinking the 3 countries are the same, and thats why I oppose it.


Estonian and Finnish languages aren´t dialects btw.They are as different as Swedish and German.

Actually, Estonian could easily be a dialect of Finnish, and Finnish could be a dialect of Estonian. Estonian has changed a lot and has a lot more Indo-European influences than Finnish, in vocabulary and grammar.
How do you define what is a dialect and what is not?
Ukraine can be considered a dialect of Russian because they are pretty much mutually intelligible, but they arent because they are spoken in different countries.
The same thing with Danish and Norwegian and Swedish.

Seto can be considered a dialect and also a language, depends who you are and what you think a dialect is, because there really is no difference and the most important criteria is mutual intelligibility.
If Setos had their own country there would be no doubt it would widely be considered a separate language.

[Äike]

So this is the attitude of the average foreigner. This is how I realized that "Baltic" has turned from a geographical term into a cultural one, and Im so sick of people thinking the 3 countries are the same, and thats why I oppose it.

I have been saying this for quite some time now. When Finland stopped being a Baltic state around the 1930's and fully after WW2, the term "Baltic" changed into a purely cultural term, denoting Indo-European Baltic Balts like the Latvians.
Estonians are far from being "Baltic". Applying the term "Baltic" to Estonia and Estonians makes no sense at all, it just makes other people think that we are like Lithuanians and speak a language identical to Latvian... This term (http://palun.blogspot.com/2006/09/only-post-communist-nordic-country.html) makes more sense.

[Äike]

Indeed.Many Estonians do not wanted to be labeled as Baltic.And especially those who tend to be more anti-Russian and nationalistic.And they tend to distance from everything which can be considered as "soviet". And usually those people are more active in internetforums.
I am not that polititical thus i think i am not the most typical Estonian internet warrior thus i think i describe the things simply as i see them.
Look, my idea here has not been to propagate any Baltic identity because I don´t identify myself as a Balt and know well that Estonians aren´t Baltic because they are Finnic.It is logical-all grops identify themselves via language.To treat Estonians as Baltic-it is about same than to treat, let´s say Hungarians as Slavic.
But yet, in my eyes Hungary shares many similarities with Slovakia for instance.:shrug:And with all neighbouring countries which surround it. Simply objectively- it shares.;)
Look, I am not talking about the identity but I have tried describe simply objective reality.Identity and similarity/differences are two different things.
And an objective reality for me is that I can recognize Finns and sometimes een a single Finn at the streets of Tallinn even if the dont speak anything in Finnish.;)At the same time Latvians look basically same than Estonians.It doesn´t mean that I feel me as an ethno-linguistical Balt.
The main conclusion what we can make about those stereotype-studies is that...Latvia is somewhat... less northern than Estonia...How banal!Did we really need a study for that?It is possible to look at the map...Latvia is more southern, yes, it is about 200km more southern.:rolleyes:
May I also discover an America and say that Finland is more northern than Estonia.And Finns are more northern (or nordic or nordid or whatever)than Estonians...
And we should not forget that a typical Estonian really knows very few about Latvia.Typical internet Estonian thinks Latvians=Lithuanians.And Lithuanians=Poles.
And I believe there are many Latvians and Lithuanians who think Estonians=Finn.lol.I´d call it ignorancy
I think I also don´t know much about Latvia although I have been there maybe for 30 times.But I kindly suggest to go there.Especially Karl.


well, one may cherry pick and emphazise those differences with Latvians as much as on wants but it all doesn´t make Estonians ethno-linguistically Nordic
like Karl wishes.
Karl, btw, is not interested in Finns so much but he uses Finns and their similar language just as a trampoline to make Estonians more nordic. Estonian and Finnish languages aren´t dialects btw.They are as different as Swedish and German.
I am yes against all sorts of Estonian Nordic wannabeism and see posters who propagate it as beggars.Estonians as "western Swedes"...Swedes are overrated by Estonians because they weren´t historically as hated as Germans not talking about Russians and connections with them as well.That unmotivated Swedophilia needs a longer discussion or better a real study.
I dont think that Danmark is for my some reason more close than any other small, west-European Germanic country, than, lets say Netherlands.There is really nothing metaphysically "Nordic" that makes me believe that Denmark is mentally much closer to me than Holland is.I really do not understand what is Nordic identity and what should i feel. I don´t feel me even as a Finn...:rolleyes:
But I think I have told it all already before... for so many times...
:bored0::bored0::bored0:It would be really not a very rational idea to "discuss" with Karl about it again and again and again...
My English isn´t the most oxfordian but I one can re-read my old posts if one wants.

I was too lazy to read your long post, but considering how well I know your already identical trollish posts, I can say that you're wrong.

By the way, you mentioned before that you voted for the Green party... Marek Strandberg is one of the people who supports changing our beautiful Estonian flag into a Nordic cross flag. As far as I know, Kaarel Tarand is also in the Green party's list as an independent candidate.

[Talvi]

I think there should be the Baltic countries, Scandinavia and then Estonia. Estonia could be a small separate region all by itself. Because we arent fully one nor the other.

[Äike]

I think there should be the Baltic countries, Scandinavia and then Estonia. Estonia could be a small separate region all by itself. Because we arent fully one nor the other.

What about Finland? It isn't Scandinavian nor Baltic.

[Don Brick]

Actually, Estonian could easily be a dialect of Finnish, and Finnish could be a dialect of Estonian. Estonian has changed a lot and has a lot more Indo-European influences than Finnish, in vocabulary and grammar.
How do you define what is a dialect and what is not?
Ukraine can be considered a dialect of Russian because they are pretty much mutually intelligible, but they arent because they are spoken in different countries.
The same thing with Danish and Norwegian and Swedish.


Well I don´t know what your definition for a dialect is, but Finnish and Estonian are clearly different languages. I don´t know how well Estonians understand Finnish, but for me especially spoken Estonian is quite unintelligible. Of course I can pick up words and even full sentences here and there but it would be basically impossible for a Finn and Estonian to fully converse to each other in their respective languages. For instance I know this one Estonian girl and once she answered her phone and started speaking Estonian. Not to be an eavesdropper, but out of sheer curiosity I tried to make out what she was talking about and I understood practically nothing... :(

[Wyn]

Karl, btw, is not interested in Finns so much but he uses Finns and their similar language just as a trampoline to make Estonians more nordic.

I get this impression.


Well I don´t know what your definition for a dialect is

There isn't a universally accepted standard for distinguishing languages from dialects. You, the Hungarians and the Nenets could all just be speaking different dialects of Uralic. :thumb001: Me, I love my own Indo-European dialect the best. :cool:

[Äike]

I get this impression.

The more Estonians come to this board, the more people with start opposing esäimä's (trollish) posts.

Check out The Academic Baltic Finnish Society social forum. Finns and Estonians being kinfolk isn't something I made up. This isn't related to anything else. Estonians and Finns were here before any Balts or Germanics existed in Northern-Europe.

[Wyn]

Finns and Estonians being kinfolk isn't something I made up.

I know that. But to me at least (and obviously someone else) it seems that you like to capitalise on the fact that Finns are - generally - considered to be somewhat Nordic (and even sometimes actual Scandinavians in uneducated every day conversation) and that you have have a kind of if-they're-Nordic-then-so-are-we mentality, i.e. that you use Finland's close association with Scandinavia to boost Estonia's...I don't know, Nordic credentials.

[esaima]

Talvi; I think there should be the Baltic countries, Scandinavia and then Estonia. Estonia could be a small separate region all by itself. Because we arent fully one nor the other.
Yes, I second that.


Well I don´t know what your definition for a dialect is, but Finnish and Estonian are clearly different languages.
Indeed.Maybe because of linguistical isolation and absence of similar languages Estonians and Finns tend to overrate the similarities between the two languages. I am in fact a pretty "Finno-Ugric" person myself i.e I support that pan-Finnic cooperation and etc but I still think I have to agree with Don here.
Norwegian person can read a Danish book, Estonian person can not read a Finnish book.


Karl;By the way, you mentioned before that you voted for the Green party... Marek Strandberg is one of the people who supports changing our beautiful Estonian flag into a Nordic cross flag.
btw, I have I got an impression that Karl has kinda totalitaran mindest or at least he tends to fetish a single individual or politician and excepts the others do the same. Oh my, it just happened that i just voted for that green party but it doesn´t mean that I agree with every single word which comes from Strandberg´s mouth!Strandberg is not a God ;)To change Estonian flag- a BS, stupid idea.



Btw, for the forum´s newcomers-we have had a megathread here about Estonian identity:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16230;)

[Äike]

I know that. But to me at least (and obviously someone else) it seems that you like to capitalise on the fact that Finns are - generally - considered to be somewhat Nordic (and even sometimes actual Scandinavians in uneducated every day conversation) and that you have have a kind of if-they're-Nordic-then-so-are-we mentality,

I think that most people know that Finns aren't Scandinavian, I haven't met anyone who would think that Finns are Northern-Germanic.


i.e. that you use Finland's close association with Scandinavia to boost Estonia's...I don't know, Nordic credentials.

It's all about geopolitics, thus your claim doesn't make sense as Estonians(at least the ones before the Livonian crusade) were more "associated" with Scandinavians, than the Finns.

[Äike]

Yes, I second that.

You are one of the most fierce supporters of Estonians being regarded as Indo-European Baltic Balts, where does this mood change come from?

[Wyn]

I think that most people know that Finns aren't Scandinavian, I haven't met anyone who would think that Finns are Northern-Germanic.

No, in general uneducated conversation throughout world, Finns would be closely associated with Scandinavia and even sometimes considered Scandinavian outright. The term Scandinavian in a broad (again, uneducated) sense is not considered synonymous with North Germanic. This dictionary entry (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scandinavia) even makes mention of the fact that Finland is sometimes included under the definition of 'Scandinavia'.


It's all about geopolitics, thus your claim doesn't make sense as Estonians(at least the ones before the Livonian crusade) were more "associated" with Scandinavians, than the Finns.

This isn't actually related to what I was saying. What happened before the Livonian Crusade is neither here nor there for the purposes of this discussion as things are vastly different now and pre-Livonian Crusade history has nothing to do with 21st century culture and diction. Re-read:


i.e. that you use Finland's close association with Scandinavia to boost Estonia's...I don't know, Nordic credentials.

Don't take it personally, it's just how you come across.

[Äike]

No, in general uneducated conversation throughout world, Finns would be closely associated with Scandinavia and even sometimes considered Scandinavian outright. The term Scandinavian in a broad (again, uneducated) sense is not considered synonymous with North Germanic. This dictionary entry (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scandinavia) even makes mention of the fact that Finland is sometimes included under the definition of 'Scandinavia'.

This isn't actually related to what I was saying. What happened before the Livonian Crusade is neither here nor there for the purposes of this discussion as things are vastly different now and pre-Livonian Crusade history has nothing to do with 21st century culture and diction. Re-read:

I see this viewpoint usually coming from Brits, thousands of years of history have nothing to do with anything. As Estonia was occupied by the Soviet Union for 50 years which radically changed everything. I even did read a post of a Scotsman on some random forum, that Estonians are more similar to Serbians, than to Finns. Because no "post-Soviet Eastern-Europeans" can be similar to the "Western" Finns. You just represent a milder form of such an opinion.


Don't take it personally, it's just how you come across.

Oh no, I'm not taking anything personally, when discussing about the culture of Finns and Estonians with a person who lives on the other side of Europe.

[esaima]

You are one of the most fierce supporters of Estonians being regarded as Indo-European Baltic Balts
:rolleyes: Where have I expressed views like this?


You are one of the most fierce supporters of Estonians being regarded as Indo-European Baltic Balts, where does this mood change come from?

There is no mood change although genetically Estonians are more similar to Latvians than to Finns.Or than to Swedes.
I think it is you here who wants to distance from Uralics and be close to Indo-European North-Germanics.

[Äike]

:rolleyes: Where have I expressed views like this?



There is no mood change although genetically Estonians are more similar to Latvians than to Finns.Or than to Swedes.
I think it is you here who wants to distance from Uralics and be close to Indo-European North-Germanics.

Finnic people are genetically similar to Finnic people, what's new about that?

Northern-Italians assimilating Germanic tribes doesn't make Germans more Italian, in the same sense as Balts assimilating Finnic tribes doesn't make the remaining Finnic people(Finns, Estonians), more Baltic. Nor are Finns more Slavic, because NW-Russians are a bunch of assimilated Finnic people and genetically quite similar to Finns and Estonians.

[Wyn]

I see this viewpoint usually coming from Brits,

Or one of the most popular American dictionaries there is. But this doesn't really matter, you're forgetting the initial point - that you use Finland's association with Scandinavia to make Estonia seem more Nordic.


You just represent a milder form of such an opinion.

No I don't. I don't associate Estonians with Slavs, for any reason.

[Heretik]

Finnic people are genetically similar to Finnic people, what's new about that?

:mmmm: :mmmm:

[Äike]

Or one of the most popular American dictionaries there is. But this doesn't really matter, you're forgetting the initial point - that you use Finland's association with Scandinavia to make Estonia seem more Nordic.

I'm not forgetting anything and your ignorant opinion doesn't change the cultural heritage of 950 000 Estonians living in Estonia.


No I don't. I don't associate Estonians with Slavs, for any reason.

But you do associate Estonians with Balts, which is still wrong.

[The Ripper]

I'm not forgetting anything and your ignorant opinion doesn't change the cultural heritage of 950 000 Estonians living in Estonia.

He's critical of your tactic of elevating Estonia into a Nordic country by virtue of their connection to Finland. But it doesn't work that way. So why go on about "ignorant opinions" when he's criticizing you, not giving any opinions on the cultural pedigree of Estonians...

[Peerkons]

Karl, first of all you should ask finns, if they feel so related to estonians. No doubt that you have cultural and linguistic similarities but i haven't seen so far a single finn in this forum mentioning estonians=finns in every fckng post.
And i agree with Wynfrith, you must be blind if you don't see that Karl is using finns as a bridge to being nordic.
And speaking about those stereotypes you are completely wrong. 1/2 of them are totally wrong. And research work done by one person doesn't mean anything. And NO, im not going to read that 200 page PDF. I have better things in my life to do.






Latvian associations

Towards Estonia:

* Successful businesses and economy -yes
* Advanced social- and medical system - don't know
* IT-sphere - not really
* Spas - yes
* Islands - yes
* Munamägi (largest mountain in the Baltics) - yes
* Tartu University - yes
* Soviet memories - maybe, haven't expierenced soviet times
* Liquor "Old Tallinn" - i love it
* Kama (food) - yes
* More successful then Latvia - only in means that you are leading country in Baltics, but that doesn't mean that you are somehow better than us


Towards Estonians:

* Blond, light haired - No, as matter of fact genetically latvians are almost same as estonians
* Non-communicators - yes
* Slow (when contacting) - yes
* Rational
* Foreseeing
* Strategic
* Patriotic - yes
* Careful
* Determined
* "Sexy Estonian boy" - LMAO
* Better then Latvians - LOL this is absurd.
* Scandinavian like - not really, more finn like.

I left blank for those stereotypes which is see for first time.
Every person has different expierence and stereotypes but i have never ever heard that you are somewhat scandinavians, better than us and that we are somekinda retards. That is totally wrong.

[Heretik]

Fuck, I need to use this "Sexy Estonian boy". :laugh:

[Wyn]

I'm not forgetting anything and your ignorant opinion doesn't change the cultural heritage of 950 000 Estonians living in Estonia.


It isn't my opinion. Either you know this and are being disingenuous or you haven't been paying attention at all.

Oh well, whatever suits you. If you chose to reveal your low character openly by claiming that I hold an opinion that I don't, it is your business.


But you do associate Estonians with Balts, which is still wrong.

You are from the Baltic region, sure. I know that you speak a Finni-Ugric language (as opposed to a Baltic language) and that you are ethnoculturally Finnic.

[Talvi]

Its because Estonians feel like they are much like the Finns. So why can the Finns be Scandinavian and not us (Im not saying Estonians are Scandinavian, but its obvious the Finns are much more influenced by Scandinavian cultures like Sweden...). :( Just a little jealous since Russians have just ruined everything! And we have to be stuck with a bad reputation.

For example, I like the TV show How I Met Your Mother... and they had some "Estonians" in one episode who spoke with a very heavy Russian accent, were technologically underdeveloped (never heard of what a "blog" is) and in the background there was some Russian music playing. I was contemplating making a site called "Estonians are not Russians"...

Latvians and Lithuanians probably have the same problems, although they are linguistically close to Russians and more Russified than us.. and Scandinavian countries have a very good reputation.. no wonder we wish we were part of that instead!

[Don Brick]

For example, I like the TV show How I Met Your Mother... and they had some "Estonians" in one episode who spoke with a very heavy Russian accent, were technologically underdeveloped (never heard of what a "blog" is) and in the background there was some Russian music playing. I was contemplating making a site called "Estonians are not Russians"...

Meet "Rava", a Finnish woman. lol :D So you guys aren´t the only ones. ;)

Htrba03Gce8&feature=related

edit: fucking youtube acting up as usual. Wait a sec. Ah whatever, here´s just a link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Htrba03Gce8&feature=related


Latvians and Lithuanians probably have the same problems, although they are linguistically close to Russians and more Russified than us.. and Scandinavian countries have a very good reputation.. no wonder we wish we were part of that instead!

I do sympathize very much with you on this matter. :(

[EWtt]

i.e. that you use Finland's close association with Scandinavia to boost Estonia's...I don't know, Nordic credentials.

It's not like we completely lack ties with Scandinavia when Finland is put out of the picture. :confused:

[esaima]

Scandinavian countries have a very good reputation.. no wonder we wish we were part of that instead!

Indeed, this may explain the fact why we are so eager to cherry pick any similarities with Scandinavians and at the same there is a tendency to ignore all those which connect us with Balts and even with Russians.



we wish we were part of that instead
I have tried always not to talk about what Estonia wishes but about what it is.

[Radola]

I was too lazy to read your long post, but considering how well I know your already identical trollish posts, I can say that you're wrong.

By the way, you mentioned before that you voted for the Green party...Marek Strandberg is one of the people who supports changing our beautiful Estonian flag into a Nordic cross flag. As far as I know, Kaarel Tarand is also in the Green party's list as an independent candidate.

I just wanted to ask you a little question: the name of the politician is MAREK, do you know something about his ancestry? As the name definitely doesn´t seem to be estonian, nor germanic. (yes, I know it, cause I have the same name:D)

[Äike]

He's critical of your tactic of elevating Estonia into a Nordic country by virtue of their connection to Finland. But it doesn't work that way. So why go on about "ignorant opinions" when he's criticizing you, not giving any opinions on the cultural pedigree of Estonians...

Here's an off-topic trick question. ;)

Who's more "associated" with Scandinavians, people who were called Víkingr frá Esthland and were regarded as equals to Scandinavian vikings by the Scandinavians themselves, as they even managed to burn down the former Swedish capital, Sigtuna. Or people who were slowly incorporated into the Swedish kingdom? Estonians have been slaying Swedes since the 5th century AD. Even the Swedish crusader force was slaughtered by the Estonians in Western-Estonia, during the Livonian crusade.

To sum it up, Finns weren't equal to the Swedes and were slowly incorporated into the Swedish kingdom, while Estonians were very successfully fighting Scandinavian attempts to get a foothold in Estonia. Be it slaying king Ingvar in the 6th century AD, or slaughtering the Swedish crusader force in the 13th century, which demotivated the Swedes to even look towards this region for the next 300 years.

[Talvi]

I just wanted to ask you a little question: the name of the politician is MAREK, do you know something about his ancestry? As the name definitely doesn´t seem to be estonian, nor germanic. (yes, I know it, cause I have the same name:D)

Marek is an average Estonia name. :confused: There are many Mareks here. Its probably an adaption of "Mark" as the internet tells me. (but "mark" means stamp in Estonian or then as a slang it means to be embarrassed, so it wouldnt be a very good name here. )

[Äike]

Karl, first of all you should ask finns, if they feel so related to estonians. No doubt that you have cultural and linguistic similarities but i haven't seen so far a single finn in this forum mentioning estonians=finns in every fckng post.
And i agree with Wynfrith, you must be blind if you don't see that Karl is using finns as a bridge to being nordic.
And speaking about those stereotypes you are completely wrong. 1/2 of them are totally wrong. And research work done by one person doesn't mean anything. And NO, im not going to read that 200 page PDF. I have better things in my life to do.






I left blank for those stereotypes which is see for first time.
Every person has different expierence and stereotypes but i have never ever heard that you are somewhat scandinavians, better than us and that we are somekinda retards. That is totally wrong.

Just read the PDF. The research was made by a Latvian who is half Estonian and lives in Riga. The total research took half a decade to finish. It is extremely informative.

All those stereotypes mentioned there are true.



You are from the Baltic region, sure. I know that you speak a Finni-Ugric language (as opposed to a Baltic language) and that you are ethnoculturally Finnic.

We Speak a Finnic language and are a ethnoculturally Finnic, so how the hell can there be anything Baltic about us? Even you are more Baltic than any Estonian, already because of the fact that your language is more related to their language(linguistic aspect).

[Heretik]

We Speak a Finnic language and are a ethnoculturally Finnic, so how the hell can there be anything Baltic about us? Even you are more Baltic than any Estonian, already because of the fact that your language is more related to their language(linguistic aspect).

Priceless!!!

:bowlol: :hail: :bowlol: :hail: :bowlol: :hail: :bowlol:

[Äike]

Indeed, this may explain the fact why we are so eager to cherry pick any similarities with Scandinavians and at the same there is a tendency to ignore all those which connect us with Balts and even with Russians.

I'll bring an example, during medieval times, when a northern-Estonian usually met Finns several times a month, then Southern-Estonians usually never met any Latvians in their entire lifetime.

Estonia.org, browse it...


I just wanted to ask you a little question: the name of the politician is MAREK, do you know something about his ancestry? As the name definitely doesn´t seem to be estonian, nor germanic. (yes, I know it, cause I have the same name:D)

Estonians have all kinds of names, I even have a friend named Marec. But the absolute majority of the names are Germanic(Karl, Linda, Ingrid, Karin, Astrid etc) or Finnic.

[Peerkons]

Here's an off-topic trick question. ;)

Who's more "associated" with Scandinavians, people who were called Víkingr frá Esthland and were regarded as equals to Scandinavian vikings by the Scandinavians themselves, as they even managed to burn down the former Swedish capital, Sigtuna. Or people who were slowly incorporated into the Swedish kingdom? Estonians have been slaying Swedes since the 5th century AD. Even the Swedish crusader force was slaughtered by the Estonians in Western-Estonia, during the Livonian crusade.

To sum it up, Finns weren't equal to the Swedes and were slowly incorporated into the Swedish kingdom, while Estonians were very successfully fighting Scandinavian attempts to get a foothold in Estonia. Be it slaying king Ingvar in the 6th century AD, or slaughtering the Swedish crusader force in the 13th century, which demotivated the Swedes to even look towards this region for the next 300 years.

Trust me, we are also mentioned in that Icelandic Saga. Also here we were going to Sweden and raping some ass there. But it means nothing. :D

[Äike]

Priceless!!!

:bowlol: :hail: :bowlol: :hail: :bowlol: :hail: :bowlol:

I think it's rather visible that I am slowly, with every passing month, getting more fed up with foreigners telling me who I should be ethnoculturally. Thus more "priceless" posts start to appear.

[Äike]

Trust me, we are also mentioned in that Icelandic Saga. Also here we were going to Sweden and raping some ass there. But it means nothing. :D

You mean southern-Oeselians/Livonians? Too bad that you Balts assimilated them. Even in the middle ages, the coast of Curland was still Finnic and you hadn't yet assimilated the descendants of those bold seafarers.

[Heretik]

I think it's rather visible that I am slowly, with every passing month, getting more fed up with foreigners telling me who I should be ethnoculturally. Thus more "priceless" posts start to appear.

I am looking forward! :hail:

[Radola]

Marek is an average Estonia name. :confused: There are many Mareks here. Its probably an adaption of "Mark" as the internet tells me. (but "mark" means stamp in Estonian or then as a slang it means to be embarrassed, so it wouldnt be a very good name here. )


Estonians have all kinds of names, I even have a friend named Marec. But the absolute majority of the names are Germanic(Karl, Linda, Ingrid, Karin, Astrid etc) or Finnic.


Of course Talvi, it´s an adaption of "Mark" and "Marcus" ... but it´s kind of weird that it´s quite common Czech and Slovakian name, I have never seen it as a name of some foreigner...But nevermind, at least I have a name which is used not only by us:D;)

[Peerkons]

You mean southern-Oeselians/Livonians? Too bad that you Balts assimilated them. Even in the middle ages, the coast of Curland was still Finnic and you hadn't yet assimilated the descendants of those bold seafarers.

Not really. Curonians have never been finnic tribe. :)
http://latvianhistory.wordpress.com/2009/07/09/curonians-aggaist-vikings-the-tales-of-battles-and-raids/

The Curonians were known as fierce warriors, excellent sailors and pirates. They were involved in several wars and alliances with Swedish, Danish, and Icelandic Vikings.[3] Grobin was their main center during the Vendel Age. Chapter 46 of Egils Saga describes one Viking expedition by the Vikings Thorolf and Egill Skallagrímsson in Courland. They took part with the Oeselians in attacking Sweden's main city Sigtuna in 1187. Curonians established temporary settlements near Riga and in overseas regions including eastern Sweden and the islands of Gotland and Bornholm.VIIa.Scandinavians begin settling in Western Baltic lands in Lithuania and Latvia.

The Curonians were an especially religious people, worshipping pagan gods and their sacred animal, the horse. Some of the most important writing sources about the Curonians are the Rimbert's Vita Ansgarii, the Chronicle of Henry of Livonia, the Livländische Reimchronik, Egils Saga, and Saxo Grammaticus's Gesta Danorum.


The map shows latvian tribes in nowadays Latvian and Lithuanian territory before crusader invasion. The green ones are livonians and as u can see in the text, Grobin was the main curonian settlement, which is pretty far from your livonians. :)
http://latvianhistory.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/senlatvijas-karte.jpg

[Talvi]

Not really. Curonians have never been finnic


The Curonians or Kurs were a Finnic or Baltic tribe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curonians


Nobody knows what they really were. So arguing they were never Finnic or they could not have been baltic is just stupid.

Also just because they lived in modern day Latvia and Lithuania does not mean they were necessarily Balts. You know, this whole area was full of Finnic people before the Balts got here :P Hungarians were Finnic, too and they arent close to other Finns now. So that kind of thinking is fallible.

And also, none of your sources speak about the genes. :P

[Äike]

Not really. Curonians have never been finnic tribe. :)
http://latvianhistory.wordpress.com/2009/07/09/curonians-aggaist-vikings-the-tales-of-battles-and-raids/

The Curonians were known as fierce warriors, excellent sailors and pirates. They were involved in several wars and alliances with Swedish, Danish, and Icelandic Vikings.[3] Grobin was their main center during the Vendel Age. Chapter 46 of Egils Saga describes one Viking expedition by the Vikings Thorolf and Egill Skallagrímsson in Courland. They took part with the Oeselians in attacking Sweden's main city Sigtuna in 1187. Curonians established temporary settlements near Riga and in overseas regions including eastern Sweden and the islands of Gotland and Bornholm.VIIa.Scandinavians begin settling in Western Baltic lands in Lithuania and Latvia.

The Curonians were an especially religious people, worshipping pagan gods and their sacred animal, the horse. Some of the most important writing sources about the Curonians are the Rimbert's Vita Ansgarii, the Chronicle of Henry of Livonia, the Livländische Reimchronik, Egils Saga, and Saxo Grammaticus's Gesta Danorum.


The map shows latvian tribes in nowadays Latvian and Lithuanian territory before crusader invasion. The green ones are livonians and as u can see in the text, Grobin was the main curonian settlement, which is pretty far from your livonians. :)
http://latvianhistory.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/senlatvijas-karte.jpg

Well, the thing is, Oeselians(modern day people of Saaremaa) had very close ties with the "Curonians" and even made raids together. We know with certainty that the Oeselians/Estonians of Saaremaa were Finnic. So, how could the Finnic Oeselians have very strong ties with the "Baltic" Curonians? Their languages were completely different and Balts and Finnic people were quite hostile towards each other.

It has even been claimed that the "Curonians" weren't a different Finnic tribe, but just southern Oeselians, as the Sõrve säär/Sõrve peninsula is quite close to the Curonian peninsula.

Saying that the Curonian vikings were Baltic would mean that the Oeselians, Estonians of Saaremaa were also Baltic. But they were very Finnic.

[Äike]

Curonians ARE baltic tribe and u are just idiot by denying it.
Oh and yes, hungarians are truly finnic.



@Karl lol every tribe has always had a contact with neighbouring alien
tribe.

I am myself from that region. I have curonians, semigallians and curonian kings in my ancestry, so i know better, dude. Im not teaching you about your estonian/finnic tribes. There is no doubt that there were finnic/estonian tribes as litvonians living in modern Latvia territory. But by saying that curonians were finnic you just show your ignorance. Ask anyone in Latvia or Lithuania if curonians were baltic. Of course they were.

Check out this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curonian_language
FOR SURE, THEY WERE A FINNIC TRIBE SPEAKING BALTIC LANGUAGE.



http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/7/26/128931423599474446.jpg

I'm not saying that the Baltic tribe of Curonians was Finnic. I am saying that the seafarers who were very similar to Oeselians and had very strong ties with Oeselians, were not Baltic/Curonian.

[Peerkons]

Well, the thing is, Oeselians(modern day people of Saaremaa) had very close ties with the "Curonians" and even made raids together.
It has even been claimed that the "Curonians" weren't a different Finnic tribe, but just southern Oeselians, as the Sõrve säär/Sõrve peninsula is quite close to the Curonian peninsula.

Saying that the Curonian vikings were Baltic would mean that the Oeselians, Estonians of Saaremaa were also Baltic.
But they were very Finnic.

Language family Indo-European

* Balto-Slavic
o Western Baltic
+ Old Curonian language

They gave their name to the region of Courland (Kurzeme), and they spoke the Old Curonian language. Curonian lands were conquered by the Livonian Order in 1266 and they eventually merged with other Baltic tribes participating in the ethnogenesis of Latvians and Lithuanians. Direct descendents of the Curonians include the Kursenieki of the Curonian Spit and the so-called Curonian Kings of Courland.


The Curonians were known as fierce warriors, excellent sailors and pirates. They were involved in several wars and alliances with Swedish, Danish, and Icelandic Vikings.[3] Grobin was their main center during the Vendel Age. Chapter 46 of Egils Saga describes one Viking expedition by the Vikings Thorolf and Egill Skallagrímsson in Courland. They took part with the Oeselians in attacking Sweden's main city Sigtuna in 1187. Curonians established temporary settlements near Riga and in overseas regions including eastern Sweden and the islands of Gotland and Bornholm.VIIa.Scandinavians begin settling in Western Baltic lands in Lithuania and Latvia.

[Talvi]

Eriks,
you are making the mistake of thinking that language families equals genetics.
Language and genetics are not the same thing and can be quite unrelated.

Following your brilliant logic black people whose first language is French or English are genetically European.

Im sure you arent that stupid you cant understand that language is a cultural thing, that can disappear or be adapted by anybody, and that your genes dont include language.

Im sure you are angry we keep taking away your stuff and thinking low of you (not Latvians in general but just you ) but try to be more reasonable.

[Talvi]

Thank you Erik for your lovely privet and non-private messages.
It would have been better if you had posted it here instead of sending privet ones.

So.
Curonians were CULTURALLY BALTIC and LINGUISTICALLY BALTIC. But wheather they were GENETICALLY baltic is another issue. They could have easily been assimilated by Balts or become Baltic though aculturalisation, because they did not completely lack Finnic influence!
I said you dont have genetic evidence in my first post about them, and you still dont, since if you bothered to read what other say youd know I didnt argue what they were linguistically.
Although the fact that language does not equal genes and that genes or language do not equal a certain culture (which you seemed to imply after bringing in Finnic and Baltic language family examples) remains the same.

More than anything, Im arguing about the way you make generalized assumptions about things like these.

[The Ripper]

I have never, with the exception of the semi-fantastical musings of Matti Klinge and the like, heard of the Curonians being a Baltic Finnish tribe or nation. Do you have any credible sources, Karl?

[Peerkons]

I'm not saying that the Baltic tribe of Curonians was Finnic. I am saying that the seafarers who were very similar to Oeselians and had very strong ties with Oeselians, were not Baltic/Curonian.
Have never heard of such seafarers very similar to oselians

[Peerkons]

So.
Curonians were CULTURALLY BALTIC and LINGUISTICALLY BALTIC. But wheather they were GENETICALLY baltic is another issue. They could have easily been assimilated by Balts or become Baltic though aculturalisation, because they did not completely lack Finnic influence!
I said you dont have genetic evidence in my first post about them, and you still dont, since if you bothered to read what other say youd know I didnt argue what they were linguistically.
Although the fact that language does not equal genes and that genes or language do not equal a certain culture (which you seemed to imply after bringing in Finnic and Baltic language family examples) remains the same.

More than anything, Im arguing about the way you make generalized assumptions about things like these.

Since WHEN is this topic about genetics? :icon_ask:
Show me! You make no sense, because the topic is first of all about stereotypes and our discussion about "great estonian sea vikings"


Black people speaking english lol. At that time there was no colonisation and even if so, it has never existed in Northern Europe.


And speaking about genetics. Yes, you[nordics] are so "much different" from us, balts[non-nordics]:eek:

Estonians:
R1a 32%
R1b 8%
I1 15%
N1c1 34%

Latvians:
R1a 40%
R1b 12%
I1 6%
N1c1 38%


Europedia -
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/9663/42283465.jpg

[Eldritch]

Thank you Erik for your lovely privet and non-private messages.
It would have been better if you had posted it here instead of sending privet ones.


Harassing other members with unwelcome PM's (when you cannot outdebate them on the open forum) is the ultimate asshole move, one I personally have zero tolerance for.

[Talvi]

Harassing other members with unwelcome PM's (when you cannot outdebate them on the open forum) is the ultimate asshole move, one I personally have zero tolerance for.


Ahh no, its alright. It was the continuation of the same topic in my message box instead of the thread.

[Peerkons]

Harassing other members with unwelcome PM's (when you cannot outdebate them on the open forum) is the ultimate asshole move, one I personally have zero tolerance for.

It was PM about topic and why are you so short-tempered?
So far i see nothing harrasing neither doing some asshole moves.
Imo thats why PMs are made, to discuss something between 2 persons.

[Eldritch]

It was PM about topic and why are you so short-tempered?
So far i see nothing harrasing neither doing some asshole moves.
Imo thats why PMs are made, to discuss something between 2 persons.

I'm not accusing you of anything in particular. If you haven't made any asshole moves, then there's no problem.

[Talvi]

Since WHEN is this topic about genetics? :icon_ask:
Show me! You make no sense, because the topic is first of all about stereotypes and our discussion about "great estonian sea vikings"


Black people speaking english lol. At that time there was no colonisation and even if so, it has never existed in Northern Europe.


And speaking about genetics. Yes, you[nordics] are so "much different" from us, balts[non-nordics]:eek:

Estonians:
R1a 32%
R1b 8%
I1 15%
N1c1 34%

Latvians:
R1a 40%
R1b 12%
I1 6%
N1c1 38%


Europedia -
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/9663/42283465.jpg


Sorry, sorry, I wasnt aware that there was somekind of a restriction that I cant talk about genes.
I do not know much about Curonians, but I have heard about their connections with other Finnic people, like Estonians. And like wikipedia says they were a "Finnic or Baltic tribe" meaning. And doesnt the book "The Curonian problem" speak about this, too?
And yeah, this is where I feel genes come in, there has to be a reason why many people seem to think they were Finnic, and the answer could be genes! Because it is very likely that they started out Finnic, who took over a blatic language and customs. The fact that you are entirely opposed to this idea and ignoring it every time I mention it is getting ridiculous.
Personally I can deal with Curonians being Baltic in every aspect on this earth. Im sure Estonia is awesome enough with or without them.

And yes I am well aware that Estonia has a lot of Baltic blood, just like Balts have a lot of Finnic blood, how this is relevant in this thread.. I dont know.

I can bet though that there are more people here who think YOU make no sense at all.

[Talvi]

It was PM about topic and why are you so short-tempered?
So far i see nothing harrassing neither doing some asshole moves.
Imo thats why PMs are made, to discuss something between 2 persons.

Ha, well I do not appreciate how this is the first thread we interact in and you start off with calling me an idiot every chance you get.

And the PMs werent a discussion. I dont think anything with you can be a discussion at all.

[Peerkons]

Sorry, sorry, I wasnt aware that there was somekind of a restriction that I cant talk about genes.
I do not know much about Curonians, but I have heard about their connections with other Finnic people, like Estonians. And like wikipedia says they were a "Finnic or Baltic tribe" meaning.

I didn't said that u cannot talk about genes. But my question is - from where u came with idea about somekinda genes in this topic?
Suddenly, from no-where comes Talvi and starts talking about genes when nobody has ever wrote in this topic about it. Maybe you can enlighten me?

wiki says

lol wiki can say much things, everyone can edit it so i don't count wiki as reliable source.

[Talvi]

I didn't said that u cannot talk about genes. But my question is - from where u came with idea about somekinda genes in this topic?
Suddenly, from no-where comes Talvi and starts talking about genes when nobody has ever wrote in this topic about it. Maybe you can enlighten me?

wiki says

lol wiki can say much things, everyone can edit it so i don't count wiki as reliable source.

Simply investigating why people or some sources would consider them Finnic or how they had many Finnic connections. Genetics can be one of the answers. And saying they have "never been Finnic" ... well just pointing out that if we did know whats up with their genetics, what you said might be just wrong. Culture and language are not the only aspects of what define who is who.

You enlightened yet?

[Peerkons]

finnic is not anthropological nor genetical term *lol*