How would the NAZIS have viewed feminine problems?

[Nordish Persephone]

Emotional/psychological and physical/reproductive? Did they believe that for example, a woman with severe emotional and physical symptoms during her period (now classified as PMDD) be "life unworthy of living."

Feminine problems would include things such as:

Polyclastic ovary syndrome and other reproductive problems
painful sex, low libido etc.
General hormonal emotional distress or severe hormonal mood swings
Borderline, histrionic, passive-agressive and other non-schizophrenia spectrum personality disorders
general unstableness or foolishness
eating disorders, anorexia
disobedience to paternal authority figures, husband
excessive sex drive/nymphomania or something close to it
general emotional weakness
period problems (ie. lack of one or excessive meunstral flow)
PMS/PMDD
mild depression/stress
neurotic type anxiety

I was just curious because I realized they euthenized people with mental disorders, but what was considered a mental disorder then is probably not the same as what is considered one now. I'm sure they killed people who were psychotic, retarded, autistic, or with some other serious mental handicap or genetic physical disorder but I'm not sure about things like bi-polar or ADD because they don't even seem like they were really discovered by then. So what about feminine problems such as depression, personality disorders, or meunstral distress which are basically considered mental illness now?

[gossimer]

I think if you were a German and held the correct beliefs according to them then essentially the dogma could be bended.

Goebbels had a limp and he was a rather frail man yet he controlled the Nazi media. You have to think like them to understand them I think. The Mongols were barbaric to other women but not to their own for example.

[Supreme American]

What?!

[Il Principe]

What can one say about this thread? Firstly, I think this topic reveals more about the OP than it does about actual Third Reich history and how they treated mentally ill people. However, she does have a very interesting point. As a rather unusual person myself, I can relate to this. I'll try to remember what I know of the Third Reich, and answer her points as best I can:


eating disorders, anorexia
Indeed, this was a crime punishable by death in the Third Reich. Refusing to eat was a great insult to the German nation, and carried the severest consequences. Few modern people know this, but more anorexic women were gassed than Jews in the death camps. This is known as the "Ana-caust".


PMS/PMDD
PMS also carried the death penalty, indeed. Why are you asking, didn't you learn this in history class?


period problems (ie. lack of one or excessive meunstral flow)
All girls who didn't get their period in time were deemed "biological failures" and sent to the T4 euthanasia center. True story.


disobedience to paternal authority figures
This was among the worst crimes in the laws of the Third Reich, far worse than the above. Not even the gas chambers were punishment enough for such a horrible crime against nature; all disobedient females were sent to Dr. Mengele's medical block.


mild depression/stress
If anyone had a mild depression, they were shot by the Einsatzgruppen. No exceptions. (However, this law was abolished after 60% of the German population was gone. They're a culture of depressives, you see.)


So what about feminine problems such as depression, personality disorders, or meunstral distress which are basically considered mental illness now?
Yes, depression and personality disorders are only feminine problems. Thank you for informing the unknowing forum about this. ;)

This is all I know about the Third Reich on this interesting subject. These are all verified facts. I could tell you more, but I wouldn't be on firm ground in historical truth. Nevertheless, these facts should tell you enough about the Third Reich's attitudes and how they favored euthanasia as a solution to feminine problems. It should give an adequate answer to your query. I hope this was helpful to you.

[Insuperable]

You can exclude excessive sex drive.:laugh:

[2Cool]

What can one say about this thread? Firstly, I think this topic reveals more about the OP than it does about actual Third Reich history and how they treated mentally ill people. However, she does have a very interesting point. As a rather unusual person myself, I can relate to this. I'll try to remember what I know of the Third Reich, and answer her points as best I can:


Indeed, this was a crime punishable by death in the Third Reich. Refusing to eat was a great insult to the German nation, and carried the severest consequences. Few modern people know this, but more anorexic women were gassed than Jews in the death camps. This is known as the "Ana-caust".


Do you have a source for that?

[Lux Aeterna]

Do you have a source for that?

:lol00002:

[Nordish Persephone]

Us "anas" have to stick together and form a pro-anorexia group to stand up to those evil nazi doctors. :p We have to say "Never again" to the anacaust. I think I read somewhere that nazi women were dissallowed from trying to be skinny, so I wonder what they would think of a moderate or severly clinical anorexic.

I know it sounds weird, but I think I started this thread because I have an impish desire to feel physically/mentally weak and vulnerable as a woman and it is something I hold very dear to my heart so if the nazis would think it was untermensch I have to go against their ideology. I think that we kind of have the rights in nature to be weak and neurotic.

I feel sure that it would be a great shame to be infertile or have trouble conceiving, but who knows, I could be wrong.

[Pallantides]

Men can often have many of the problems listed aswell... so I wouldn't call them feminine problems, unless only feminine men can have neurotic anxiety and depression. :p

[Nordish Persephone]

Men can often have many of the problems listed aswell... so I wouldn't call them feminine problems, unless only feminine men can have neurotic anxiety and depression. :p

Well, these are different from severly clinical manifestations. Of course the male gender can have depression and anxiety. What I mean is somewhat functional depression or neurosis that springs mainly from psychological problems. Women tend to have these problems more than men, because we don't repress our emotions and are focused more on interpersonal relationships. We're also generally less equipped to deal with scary or upsetting things. Nature doesn't equip us with the stability that men have, because we don't need to deal with the problems they do to reproduce. I don't care what some feminist medical journal says it's a fact.

[GeistFaust]

Women were given a right to vote, so as much as the Nazis are portrayed as this ultra-masculine society, they gave women a fair deal of freedom, but they were just being good traditionalist in regards to other matters.

They believed that women should make babies and watch over their children, which was healthy, because it let the men do what they needed to do.

Don't forget there were women who worked in the concentration camps, and another one who is famous for flying a helicopter and air planes during the Reich.

[Nordish Persephone]

Women were given a right to vote, so as much as the Nazis are portrayed as this ultra-masculine society, they gave women a fair deal of freedom, but they were just being good traditionalist in regards to other matters.

They believed that women should make babies and watch over their children, which was healthy, because it let the men do what they needed to do.

Don't forget there were women who worked in the concentration camps, and another one who is famous for flying a helicopter and air planes during the Reich.

Mmm, in some aspects, but those were generally ideas held up by the elite. They were still a very moralistic, paternal society.

[Il Principe]

Us "anas" have to stick together and form a pro-anorexia group to stand up to those evil nazi doctors. :p We have to say "Never again" to the anacaust.
But first of all, you'll have to form an Ana Lobby in the US Congress and in Hollywood. Control over pop culture and media is very paramount. Only then will you poor anorexics have enough political force to triumph over the cruel Nazi force-feeders and destroy them for eternity. Never again! לעולם לא עוד!


I think I read somewhere that nazi women were dissallowed from trying to be skinny, so I wonder what they would think of a moderate or severly clinical anorexic.
"Disallowed" would be incorrect. It's true that women in the Third Reich were encouraged to get physically fit and stay healthy - basically the athletic ideal for women, as opposed to the stick-thin model ideal - but I don't think there were any actual laws on this. The Nazis, much like the Spartans they wanted to emulate, believed that an athletic body and good health made a woman more attractive than a mascara-caked face and lipstick. I doubt they would've approved of heroin-chic models or "trendy" anorexia. :tongue

That said, the NSDAP didn't really pass any oppressive laws against the female population, apart from having a certain health standard for women who wanted to join the NSDAP. With the German women being the largest demographic that voted Hitler into power, he was careful about not upsetting them. (In fact, Goebbels wanted a ban against cosmetics and miniskirts at one point, as the cosmetics industry and foreign fashions were Jewish-owned, but the Führer vetoed this idea.)


I know it sounds weird, but I think I started this thread because I have an impish desire to feel physically/mentally weak and vulnerable as a woman and it is something I hold very dear to my heart so if the nazis would think it was untermensch I have to go against their ideology.
Ah, old-fashioned masochism. We've all felt this way, at some point or other in our lives. :tongue Having secet fantasies about being the weak, dominated, wonderfully vulnerable untermensch is nothing out of the ordinary. I'm afraid you are psycho-sexually quite normal. Sorry. :tongue


I feel sure that it would be a great shame to be infertile or have trouble conceiving, but who knows, I could be wrong.
I suppose it was socially a shame to be infertile (as the NSDAP indoctrinated the population to a large degree), but not illegal at all. Of course, there was a much stronger motivation for birthing children, since the mothers of large families got economic benefits and a "German mother's cross" medal. But mainly the carrot was used, not the stick.

So there you have my more serious answers.

[Arne]

They might had cured them with a dose of their Eugenic Spectrum

[Nordish Persephone]

But first of all, you'll have to form an Ana Lobby in the US Congress and in Hollywood. Control over pop culture and media is very paramount. Only then will you anorexics have enough political force to triumph over the genocidal Nazi force-feeders and destroy them for eternity.Never again! לעולם לא עוד!


"Disallowed" would be incorrect. It's true that women in the Third Reich were encouraged to get physically fit and stay healthy - basically the athletic ideal for women, as opposed to the stick-thin model ideal - but I don't think there were any actual laws on this. The Nazis, much like the Spartans they wanted to emulate, believed that an athletic body and good health made a woman more attractive than a mascara-caked face and lipstick. I doubt they would've approved of heroin-chic models or "trendy" anorexia. :tongue

That said, the NSDAP didn't really pass any oppressive laws against the female population, apart from having a certain health standard for women who wanted to join the NSDAP. Since the women being the main demographic that voted Hitler into power, he was careful about not upsetting them. (Goebbels wanted to outlaw cosmetics and miniskirts at one point, as the cosmetics industry and foreign fashions were run by Jews, but the Führer vetoed this idea.)


Ah, old-fashioned masochism. We've all felt this way, at some point or other in our lives. :tongue Having secet fantasies about being the weak, dominated, wonderfully vulnerable untermensch is nothing out of the ordinary. I'm afraid you are psycho-sexually quite normal. Sorry. :tongue


I suppose it was socially a shame to be infertile (as the NSDAP indoctrinated the population to a large degree), but not illegal at all. Of course, there was a much stronger motivation for birthing children, since the mothers of large families got economic benefits and a "German mother's cross" medal. But only this carrot was used, not a stick.

So there you have my more serious answers.

I didn't mean by law, I just mean culturally forced. You would be highly discouraged from making any effort to be skinny if you were a young girl and were a part of some nazi organization. You were not SUPPOSED to try to be skinny, if you did, there would be something very off about you. Anorexia is not just a cultural/psychological induced disorder, it's subconscious/biochemical too so a clinical manifestation of it certainly could occur in a society that doesn't value being skinny.

[Nordish Persephone]

They might had cured them with a dose of their Eugenic Spectrum

Huh? :confused:

[Arne]

Huh? :confused:

Selecting out the weaker ones.. maybe..

[GeistFaust]

Mmm, in some aspects, but those were generally ideas held up by the elite. They were still a very moralistic, paternal society.



If they were not paternal they could not have derived a comprehensive system of morality as applied to society, which brings about order. Women are only good at creating order at a micro-sociological level, and outside of that level it becomes harder for them to apply themselves properly. They have done studies on primates where they said more matriarchial social structures tended to be more violent, disordered, and disarrayed.


I think that would apply to women, despite the fact all the conflicts and tensions that can arise in a paternal society. At least in a paternal society there is the capacity to control long-term and short term possibilities and actual occurences of disorder, violence, and a dysfunctional micro-sociological event. This was especially the case in the Nazi regime, which was oriented on a police state, which put a lot of emphasis on the military and a centralized totalitarian bureaucracy.


A women that cares for women truly could not be actualized or made possible without a society with a metaphysical foundation, which is paternal nature to some extent or another. I just think women would get lost in frivolous and petty tensions and frictions against each other, and other micro-sociological units in society and culture, at least if they ruled on a large scale

[Nordish Persephone]

Selecting out the weaker ones.. maybe..

Maybe it's just me, but the statistics of "feminine" psychological and emotional problems, such as PMDD and eating disorders seem to be higher quality women who are more intelligent and physically proportional or attractive than average.

[GeistFaust]

Maybe it's just me, but the statistics of "feminine" psychological and emotional problems, such as PMDD and eating disorders seem to be higher quality women who are more intelligent and physically proportional or attractive than average.


So you are saying that women, if they were of a high quality in the Nazi regime, would probably have too many psychological and emotional problems to be considered truly fit? I think higher levels of consciousness and physical proportionality among women might cause them to become more self-conscious of their problems, which are rather natural for women.


The great people anyway, whether they be men or women, have always had their problems, although they tended to be quasi-functional and normative. We are all a bit dysfunctional to some extent, but its all how we are able of facilitating and managing it in a broader socio-cultural context, and women seem to be less self-conscious of this broader socio-cultural context than the average men.


I think women are less afraid on average of expressing their feelings, emotions, and problems, which I think makes them look a bit too insane and crazy. Women's psychology focuses more on the visceral rather then on the ethereal, which I think would be a bit distracting to a lot of the Nazis ideals, which were rather ethereal in nature, although they centered on the visceral in a non-dynamic and active manner.


I think though that most female's deal with their problems and attain problems relative to the nature of the men in their environment. The women, as portrayed in the Nazi regime, seemed to be rather sane and normal relative to some other women. Maybe it was because they were just more obedient to their men, and accepted and embraced what was going on around them. I am sure different Nazis had different views on women, but the typical Germanic view of women has never been good.

[Rødskjegg]

Maybe it's just me, but the statistics of "feminine" psychological and emotional problems, such as PMDD and eating disorders seem to be higher quality women who are more intelligent and physically proportional or attractive than average.

So, women with illnesses = better quality to you?

[Il Principe]

I didn't mean by law, I just mean culturally forced. You would be highly discouraged from making any effort to be skinny if you were a young girl and were a part of some nazi organization.
Probably, yes. But cultural pressure exists in every society, so the Third Reich was hardly unique in that regard.

To use Evolian terms, the Third Reich was a solar society that encouraged the "Demetrian" ideal for women, and not the "Aphrodisian" ideal. The Demetrian principle being that woman should be a monogamous wife and mother, as well as a hard-working member of the society. While the Aphrodisian attitude is materialistic, and more focused on the senses and sexuality (basically, the principle that woman's central role is a fuck toy). The Third Reich's idealized women were basically those of ancient Sparta.

Basically, the Nazi female ideal was this:

http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb431/afterplay1/normal_Volk252025262520Rasse13257E0.jpg


As opposed to this:

http://gallery.celebritypro.com/data/media/36/adriana-lima-victorias-secret-christmas-cover.jpg

[Nordish Persephone]

So you are saying that women, if they were of a high quality in the Nazi regime, would probably have too many psychological and emotional problems to be considered truly fit? I think higher levels of consciousness and physical proportionality among women might cause them to become more self-conscious of their problems, which are rather natural for women.


The great people anyway, whether they be men or women, have always had their problems, although they tended to be quasi-functional and normative. We are all a bit dysfunctional to some extent, but its all how we are able of facilitating and managing it in a broader socio-cultural context, and women seem to be less self-conscious of this broader socio-cultural context than the average men.


I think women are less afraid on average of expressing their feelings, emotions, and problems, which I think makes them look a bit too insane and crazy. Women's psychology focuses more on the visceral rather then on the ethereal, which I think would be a bit distracting to a lot of the Nazis ideals, which were rather ethereal in nature, although they centered on the visceral in a non-dynamic and active manner.


I think though that most female's deal with their problems and attain problems relative to the nature of the men in their environment. The women, as portrayed in the Nazi regime, seemed to be rather sane and normal relative to some other women. Maybe it was because they were just more obedient to their men, and accepted and embraced what was going on around them. I am sure different Nazis had different views on women, but the typical Germanic view of women has never been good.

No, I'm not saying that NAZI women had these problems necessarily, I'm talking about what I observe in modern society. I have had a milder PMDD, anorexia, anxiety/neurosis, and other little "syndromes" that affect women more than men. Marilyn Monroe suffered from similar problems, such as normative depression and many other actresses, models, and intelligent women from upper class families have these syndromes and issues. I think it has something to do with being self-conscious and having a higher standard of value. Believe it or not, it is hard being an attractive woman, people either love your or hate you.

[morski]

Emotional/psychological and physical/reproductive? Did they believe that for example, a woman with severe emotional and physical symptoms during her period (now classified as PMDD) be "life unworthy of living."

Feminine problems would include things such as:

Polyclastic ovary syndrome and other reproductive problems
painful sex, low libido etc.
General hormonal emotional distress or severe hormonal mood swings
Borderline, histrionic, passive-agressive and other non-schizophrenia spectrum personality disorders
general unstableness or foolishness
eating disorders, anorexia
disobedience to paternal authority figures, husband
excessive sex drive/nymphomania or something close to it
general emotional weakness
period problems (ie. lack of one or excessive meunstral flow)
PMS/PMDD
mild depression/stress
neurotic type anxiety

I was just curious because I realized they euthenized people with mental disorders, but what was considered a mental disorder then is probably not the same as what is considered one now. I'm sure they killed people who were psychotic, retarded, autistic, or with some other serious mental handicap or genetic physical disorder but I'm not sure about things like bi-polar or ADD because they don't even seem like they were really discovered by then. So what about feminine problems such as depression, personality disorders, or meunstral distress which are basically considered mental illness now?


Jsut get a beer or two and enjoy life now, will you?:p

[Nordish Persephone]

Jsut get a beer or two and enjoy life now, will you?:p

Nothing cures cramps except a healthy dose of midol. Beers ain't gonna help. Until it kicks in it's like hell on earth. I bet you are grateful you are not a woman, that's why men should accept our drama queen behavior and treat us like princesses.

[2Cool]

:lol00002:

What's so funny? I searched the web and saw no mention that such a thing happened. I wouldn't be surprised if some were killed but more than the Jews? I really doubt that.

[Fortis in Arduis]

Please ban, again.

[Aces High]

Believe it or not, it is hard being an attractive woman, people either love your or hate you.

How do you cope...?

[cossackpride]

Nazi had no problem hanging the female members of the Edelweiss Pirates.


How would they have dealt with Feminism?

http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/j/Gallows.jpg

[Nordish Persephone]

How do you cope...?

By taking out my hostility passive agressively on old men. :cool:

[PetiteParisienne]

Bipolar, rubber fetishist with endometriosis. I'll be first in the euthansia queue!

Post-Traumatic 'J' word here. Don't jump the queue!