The answer to Greece's problems??

[Loki]

Hear me out ... this may sound improbable, but could be the only workable solution.

How about ... a mighty domain on both sides of the Bosphorus .. both Greece and Turkey are no longer looking to the European Union for answers. They should go in allegiance together, and it would give the middle finger to the EU!! Imagine that ... a mighty empire that could rival that of the Byzantine era!!

Thoughts?

[Xenomorph]

There would be too much jockeying over which side would receive more power. Also, the Greeks wouldn't care to get involved with disputes with the Kurds and Armenians, and I don't think that Turks would want to sink their teeth into the Macedonian controversy. Also, there's the issue of Greece's economic problems.

[Frans Hals]

My tips:

Greece sell her islands, so I think Turkey would help her. And it will over a lot of conflicts in the Egean sea for islands sovereignty.

Also if it was possible - I would pay 100 Euro for an island but it must be cleaned off the greeks on it otherwise I pay nothing.

[Vasconcelos]

That will never happen, too many cultural differences and historical hatreds..not to mention that, since Turkey is a lot larger, it would end up having a much greater influence...don't think Greeks would like that.


It's more likely the EU federalizes than that.

[Loki]

That will never happen, too many cultural differences and historical hatreds..not to mention that, since Turkey is a lot larger, it would end up having a much greater influence...don't think Greeks would like that.


It's more likely the EU federalizes than that.

The Greeks aren't burning Turkish flags on the streets of Athens.

[Waidewut]

Greece should consolidate its budget itself- no point in looking for miracle help from other countries, especially now when Greece's crediting reputation is uber-fucked up.

[Padre Organtino]

Creating "uber-empire" does not make you magically more credit worthy. It'll be a nail in the coffin for Greeks as they'll be dissolved in the sea of Turks.

[Turkophagos]

My tips:

Greece sell her islands, so I think Turkey would help her. And it will over a lot of conflicts in the Egean sea for islands sovereignty.

Also if it was possible - I would pay 100 Euro for an island but it must be cleaned off the greeks on it otherwise I pay nothing.




Greek islands are not your sister, they cost more than 100 euros.

[Queen B]

My tips:

Greece sell her islands, so I think Turkey would help her. And it will over a lot of conflicts in the Egean sea for islands sovereignty.

Also if it was possible - I would pay 100 Euro for an island but it must be cleaned off the greeks on it otherwise I pay nothing.

Your 100 won't even buy an islander's fart. Keep it to buy something in your country.
Hasish, or a window prostitute


The Greeks aren't burning Turkish flags on the streets of Athens.
They should though.

[Graham]

Copy Iceland? Take out the EU and make some of us happy. :)

[Queen B]

Hear me out ... this may sound improbable, but could be the only workable solution.

How about ... a mighty domain on both sides of the Bosphorus .. both Greece and Turkey are no longer looking to the European Union for answers. They should go in allegiance together, and it would give the middle finger to the EU!! Imagine that ... a mighty empire that could rival that of the Byzantine era!!

Thoughts?

What about take care of your (plural) own countries and stop giving a flying shit of what Greece does?

Suddenly, everybody has a ''saying'' for what Greece should do.

I didn't see anyone do something, when Turkey declared a casus belli on Greece. I didn't see anyone say something to support Greece's interests, but now that Greece is in crisis, anyone runs to say whatever he/she thinks as an advice for Greece's future.

Even though most people don't like it, Greece is still here, after thousands of years.After Roman empires, Ottoman empires, after WW1 and a disastrous WW2, after 2 Balkan wars, after the genocide from turks, after civil war, after Junta.

yeap, we are still here, tiny in size, with small population, but with a pride that almost no other European country has at half.

[Loki]

What about take care of your (plural) own countries and stop giving a flying shit of what Greece does?

Suddenly, everybody has a ''saying'' for what Greece should do.


Well, I am interested in geopolitics globally, and the Greek situation is currently at the forefront of the news.

[Queen B]

Well, I am interested in geopolitics globally, and the Greek situation is currently at the forefront of the news.

So, what we should do with our ALLY in Nato that holds a casus belli , if we are going to expand our territoral waters to the international legal of 12 miles?

What we should do with our ALLIES, that never protect us ?

What we should do with Germany, and Siemens scandal?

Whats your opinion about Germany and France (our allies) selling us second hand military equipement, and the Troika REJECTING our offer to cut or decrease our military budget?

What you should think we do with the money that Germany owe us from ww2 loans that took from us?

What we should do about the Elgin marbles that got STOLEN from Greece?

What about the illegaly occupation from Cyprus?

[Graham]

What we should do about the Elgin marbles that got STOLEN from Greece?


We should be giving you that back. The British Museum would be bare if it gave everything back we stole. Wrong to even call it the Elgin Marbles.

[Queen B]

We should be giving you that back. The British Museum would be bare if it gave everthing back we stole. Wrong to even call it the Elgin Marbles.
True, my fault. When talking English, I often make such mistakes.
Yes, it would be bare, but half of them are already in Athens, so its crazy to have the rest in another country/city.

[Loki]

So, what we should do with our ALLY in Nato that holds a casus belli , if we are going to expand our territoral waters to the international legal of 12 miles?

What we should do with our ALLIES, that never protect us ?

What we should do with Germany, and Siemens scandal?

Whats your opinion about Germany and France (our allies) selling us second hand military equipement, and the Troika REJECTING our offer to cut or decrease our military budget?

What you should think we do with the money that Germany owe us from ww2 loans that took from us?

What we should do about the Elgin marbles that got STOLEN from Greece?

What about the illegaly occupation from Cyprus?

What do you propose then? Greece against the entire world? It would be in Greece's benefit to build some alliances.

[Loki]

True, my fault. When talking English, I often make such mistakes.
Yes, it would be bare, but half of them are already in Athens, so its crazy to have the rest in another country/city.

With an unstable Greece, these treasures would be safer in the British Museum.

[Quorra]

The Greeks are too Arabised for the Turks but the Turks would still be the ones more into the idea for the opportunity to expand their border.

[Queen B]

With an unstable Greece, these treasures would be safer in the British Museum.
Those treasures managed to survive thousands of years , during worst times, that's a joke.

What do you propose then? Greece against the entire world? It would be in Greece's benefit to build some alliances.
I purpose to leave us alone, and we will find a way to survive just like we always did, even against superpowers.
Have you ever thought that its the super powers of Europe that don't want Greece and Turkey in better terms?

Just sayin :coffee:

[Rouxinol]

So, what we should do with our ALLY in Nato that holds a casus belli , if we are going to expand our territoral waters to the international legal of 12 miles?

What we should do with our ALLIES, that never protect us ?

What we should do with Germany, and Siemens scandal?

Whats your opinion about Germany and France (our allies) selling us second hand military equipement, and the Troika REJECTING our offer to cut or decrease our military budget?

What you should think we do with the money that Germany owe us from ww2 loans that took from us?

What we should do about the Elgin marbles that got STOLEN from Greece?

What about the illegaly occupation from Cyprus?

The EU is a shame with Germany economy benefitting from exploring others.

[Loki]

Have you ever thought that its the super powers of Europe that don't want Greece and Turkey in better terms?


But that is exactly the point why I made this thread ... to propose an allegiance of sorts between Greece and Turkey.

[Queen B]

The EU is a shame with Germany economy benefitting from exploring others.
Germany more, and France,too.
But it's okay, Greece resistance in ww2, as a small country was the biggest, and their downfall, again, will be from us :D

[Queen B]

But that is exactly the point why I made this thread ... to propose an allegiance of sorts between Greece and Turkey.

Your propose won't help anything.

Its just words in a thread. But even with that, it will only benefit some trolls and haters, to come and spread their hate, ignorance and stupidity.

i already read the 100 per island ''genius'' post, I am expecting more ''bright'' answers, as well.

[Loki]

Germany more, and France,too.
But it's okay, Greece resistance in ww2, as a small country was the biggest, and their downfall, again, will be from us :D

I don't think Greece will cause Germany's downfall. Don't flatter yourselves too much. :p

[Romanion]

Greece should drill for its oil in its legal EEZ, that is what we should do.

[Queen B]

I don't think Greece will cause Germany's downfall. Don't flatter yourselves too much. :p
I don't, its the reality :D
Personally, I want Greece to default and get out of the Eurozone, would be the best :thumb001:

[Onur]

But that is exactly the point why I made this thread ... to propose an allegiance of sorts between Greece and Turkey.
Loki, an alliance between Greece, Turkey, Cyprus controls whole east-med which also causes them to control middle-eastern and central Asian energy corridors to Europe at the same time.

The primary reason of the resurrection of Greece after ~2000 years of "gap"(!!!) was to end this possibility. So, an alliance with Turkey is against the most basic national cause of Greece. Greece has been founded to constitute a barrier against Turkey. This is their raison d`etre. I am not sure which one, probably both but they are either failed to achieve this or that barrier is not necessary anymore but thats why Greece is failing for some time. Their existence has totally became unnecessary and futile for great powers after cold war era ended. Greece has lost it`s importance for the world powers and not likely they will regain it in the foreseeable future.

[Queen B]

Loki, an alliance between Greece, Turkey, Cyprus controls whole east-med which also causes them to control middle-eastern and central Asian energy corridors to Europe at the same time.

The primary reason of the resurrection of Greece after ~2000 years of gap was to end this possibility. So, an alliance with Turkey is against the most basic national cause of Greece. Greece has been founded to constitute a barrier against Turkey. This is their raison d`etre. I am not sure which one, probably both but they are either failed to achieve this or that barrier is not necessary anymore but thats why Greece is failing for some time. Their existence has totally became unnecessary and futile for great powers after cold war era ended.

:lol00002::lol00002:

:crazy::crazy:

[Onur]

For the ones who still thinks like Turkey supposedly dreams about capturing Greece;

Just try to be logic. Greece owns ~450 billions of Euros of debt to northern Europe while having ~300 billions worth of GDP and this is shrinking further down every year. They have no industry and no agriculture besides olives. Their sailing industry is dead already. Even tiny Croatia is about to surpass Greece in tourism due to Greece being in Eurozone. So, what Turkey or anyone gains from there? Absolutely nothing.

EU`s big guns already poured out Greece`s resources [incl. human resources] like their African colonies and it`s dead in terms of economy. Their citizens became like parasites who only leech but produce nothing. All in all, Greece`s value in any standard of the world economy is close to zero atm.

[The Lawspeaker]

Your 100 won't even buy an islander's fart. Keep it to buy something in your country.
Hasish, or a window prostitute


They should though.
He has a point though. It's like the Philippines: you have so many beautiful islands and a lot of them are uninhabited. Sell or lease them to a private investor that wants to build a resort and you cash in on them and you don't need to do much: they also need to get in the building materials, the workers and the infrastructure. After all: it is possible to buy land or a house on the mainland as well.

Of course: it would be for a bit more then 100 but... :cool:

[Queen B]

Just try to be logic. Greece owns ~450 billions of Euros of debt to northern Europe while having ~300 billions worth of GDP and this is shrinking further down every year. They have no industry and no agriculture besides olives. Their sailing industry is dead already.
Greece still has the largest fleet in the world.

Even tiny Croatia is about to surpass Greece in tourism due to Greece being in Eurozone. So, what Turkey or any country gains from there? Absolutely nothing.
:crazy:
Greece's tourism rised from 2010 to 2011, and will also (according to estimations) will, in 2012


EU`s big guns already poured out Greece`s resources like their African colonies and it`s dead in terms of economy. Their citizens became like parasites who only leech but produce nothing. All in all, Greece`s value is close to zero atm.
Parasites, not yet. We have to surpass the reputation of the Turks on that :cool:
At least, you are the ''top'' in something.
;)

[Queen B]

He has a point though. It's like the Philippines: you have so many beautiful islands and a lot of them are uninhabited. Sell or lease them to a private investor that wants to build a resort and you cash in on them. After all: it is possible to buy land or a house on the mainland as well.
Of course: it would be for a bit more then 100 but... :cool:
Would you sell your body just because it might be beautiful?
No Tuan, we won't prostitute our country, its not in our culture to do it .
Better ''die'' with pride instead of survive as whores.

[Queen B]

Your propose won't help anything.

Its just words in a thread. But even with that, it will only benefit some trolls and haters, to come and spread their hate, ignorance and stupidity.

i already read the 100 per island ''genius'' post, I am expecting more ''bright'' answers, as well.

My point is becoming true. Another thread is becoming the nest of trolls.

Bravo :coffee:

[The Lawspeaker]

Would you sell your body just because it might be beautiful?
No Tuan, we won't prostitute our country, its not in our culture to do it .
Better ''die'' with pride instead of survive as whores.
It's not prostituting. Since when is selling land or a house to a German or a Frenchman that wants to live in your country prostituting ? Since when the tourism business and the housing market prostitution ?

Or would you call the countries that do it prostitutes ? If so you insult the Croatians, the Filipino's and probably a lot more countries. Your islands, your natural beauty, your beaches, your climate is a resource. Use it. Not everyone in Europe is so fortunate.

[Rron]

The EU is a shame with Germany economy benefitting from exploring others.
Why shame!! you think that other countries which are not in position of Germany and lets say France, wouldnt do same thing if they would have opportunity

[The Lawspeaker]

Why shame!! you think that other countries which are not in position of Germany and lets say France, wouldnt do same thing if they would have opportunity
Greece and Italy would do it too if they had the opportunity.. and with that ESM they are actually doing just that. I read about a plan, I may need to look it up, for huge transfers of wealth from north to south. They are going to get a modern infrastructure, green energy while we will have to pay and get fokol.

A Dutch article (http://groenecourant.nl/enorm-europees-investeringsfonds-voor-schone-energie-in-failliete-lidstaten/) about it. And one in El Pais (http://economia.elpais.com/economia/2012/04/28/actualidad/1335647294_256117.html).

[Queen B]

It's not prostituting. Since when is selling land or a house to a German or a Frenchman that wants to live in your country prostituting ? Since when the tourism business prostitution ?

Or would you call the countries that do it prostitutes ? If so you insult the Croatians, the Filipino's and probably a lot more countries. Your islands, your natural beauty, your beaches, your climate is a resource. Use it. Not everyone in Europe is so fortunate.

Those that own land, individuals, can sell if they want, what they want/own.

But islands are the property of Greece, and thus, the property of Greeks, and no goverment is the one that should decided to whom, and for how much , and if they would be sold or not.

Our forefathers shed blood for the soreivignity of this country, to start selling islands just because we are in a bad state economically. We didn't sell a rock at the famine of ww2, we are not going to do it now.

Use it? Sure, why not. We actually do it already, that's why 20 millions per year are visiting our tiny, beautiful country.

[The Lawspeaker]

Those that own land, individuals, can sell if they want, what they want/own.

But islands are the property of Greece, and thus, the property of Greeks, and no goverment is the one that should decided to whom, and for how much , and if they would be sold or not.
Then lease (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lease) those isles to property developers, hotel chains, private people that want to build a house. They would have to pay you handsomely and you don't have to do anything.. just see the money come in. You know: construction work, running resorts, creating infrastructure creates jobs. And people pay taxes over their income... or at least ought to.


Our forefathers shed blood for the soreivignity of this country, to start selling islands just because we are in a bad state economically. We didn't sell a rock at the famine of ww2, we are not going to do it now.
But then your country didn't have a massive debt to it's partners.


Use it? Sure, why not. We actually do it already, that's why 20 millions per year are visiting our tiny, beautiful country.
Greece has so many islands, a lot of them uninhabited. That's not using it.

[Romanion]

Then lease (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lease) those isles to property developers, hotel chains, private people that want to build a house. They would have to pay you handsomely and you don't have to do anything.. just see the money come in.

But then your country didn't have a massive debt to it's partners.

Greece has so many islands, a lot of them uninhabited. That's not using it.

I have to agree with this, lease the islands, not sell them. The private owners will build them up, its a good idea.

[The Lawspeaker]

I have to agree with this, lease the islands, not sell them. The private owners will build them up, its a good idea.
And they will build them at their own expense so at the end of the day it would "getting rich while being asleep" as we would say here.

[Onur]

Our forefathers shed blood for the soreivignity of this country, to start selling islands just because we are in a bad state economically. We didn't sell a rock at the famine of ww2, we are not going to do it now.
Do not dramatize the situation. You didn't shed a single drop of blood for neither the Aegean/mediterranean islands nor for the western Thrace.

The islands was ~500 years old Turkish territory but occupied by Italy during WW-1 and they left all of them to Greece by the orders of British during the Paris peace conference after the war. Thats exactly why Italians recaptured all the islands from you in WW-2 because they were thinking like it was an unfair decision of Anglo-Saxons.



Greece has so many islands, a lot of them uninhabited. That's not using it.
Tuan B., it`s a useless idea because most of these islands were never inhabited and Greece is even struggling to provide electricity, clean water to the big islands. Even Greek Cyprus had to buy electricity from Turkish Cypriots after an explosion in their one and only electricity terminal.

Greece is ~1000 miles away from these islands while some of them are visible from Turkish coasts by naked eye. Greece cannot provide enough resources to sustain economical viability to these islands. They neither have manpower nor economy to maintain what they have.

So, they are holding a heavier burden than they can carry, a burden given to them by great powers a century ago.

[Romanion]

Do not dramatize the situation. You didn't shed a single drop of blood for neither the Aegean/mediterranean islands nor for the western Thrace.

The islands was ~500 years old Turkish territory but occupied by Italy during WW-1 and they left all of them to Greece by the orders of British during the Paris peace conference after the war. Thats exactly why Italians recaptured all the islands from you in WW-2 because they were thinking like it was an unfair decision of Anglo-Saxons.

Greece got the Aegean Islands after winning the Balkan wars dumbass.

[Rron]

Greece and Italy would do it too if they had the opportunity.. and with that ESM they are actually doing just that. I read about a plan, I may need to look it up, for huge transfers of wealth from north to south. They are going to get a modern infrastructure, green energy while we will have to pay and get fokol.

A Dutch article (http://groenecourant.nl/enorm-europees-investeringsfonds-voor-schone-energie-in-failliete-lidstaten/) about it. And one in El Pais (http://economia.elpais.com/economia/2012/04/28/actualidad/1335647294_256117.html).
Of course, just because some EU countries are now in economical regress that doesnt mean other countries of the union should follow them and try to find ''country which caused our disaster'', instead of searching for soulution, while they have the example of Greece.

[The Lawspeaker]

Of course, just because some EU countries are now in economical regress that doesnt mean other countries of the union should follow them and try to find ''country which caused our disaster'', instead of searching for soulution, while they have the example of Greece.
But it will of course be at our expense and we are not seeing a penny of it.

[Graham]

I don't, its the reality :D
Personally, I want Greece to default and get out of the Eurozone, would be the best :thumb001:

Greek expenditure compared to revenue, is close to what the UK is like. With Greek expenditure lower on EU Average.

Think you should default. Quick way to bomb that public debt to GDP ratio. Bin the Euro and focus on somehow raising revenue without hurting.

To me it just looks like a slow inevitably sinking ship.

[Queen B]

Then lease (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lease) those isles to property developers, hotel chains, private people that want to build a house. They would have to pay you handsomely and you don't have to do anything.. just see the money come in. You know: construction work, running resorts, creating infrastructure creates jobs. And people pay taxes over their income... or at least ought to.
Those that can be inhabited, already are.
And those that can be inhabited, have already a tourist ''industry''.
How the hell we welcome 20 million tourists in a country that has 10 millions citizens you thing?
If they are not inhabited, they are either ''rocks'', or tiny. They are a few that can be used correctly, and in that, yes, they could rent them.


But then your country didn't have a massive debt to it's partners.
That's why we should default. :wink


Greece has so many islands, a lot of them uninhabited. That's not using it.
They are inhabited because they are tiny, as I told you
6.000 islands, doesn't mean 6.000 islands in the size of Crete of Zakynthos, duhhhhhh


So, they are holding a heavier burden than they can carry, a burden given to them by great powers a century ago.
http://cdn3.digitaltrends.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/you-mad-bro.png

[Rron]

But it will of course be at our expense and we are not seeing a penny of it.
After all its economical union , every country try to benefit from it, and this is actually purpose of its existence.

[Queen B]

Greece got the Aegean Islands after winning the Balkan wars dumbass.
Don't fight with him, he is butthurt. He hasn't get over the fact, that tiny Greece, with aaaaaaaallll those bad things he lists everytime, managed to get rid of Turks

[Graham]

Surely if Greece dumps the Euro and brings back it's own currency. This would be better for Tourism and Foreign investment to have a lower value Drachma.

[Yaroslav]

1. Exit the European Union

2. Repatriate illegal immigrants

3. Recognize minorities

4. Recognize Macedonia's sovereignty

5. Build economic partnership with Eastern markets (Turkey, Russia)

[The Lawspeaker]

Those that can be inhabited, already are.
And those that can be inhabited, have already a tourist ''industry''.
How the hell we welcome 20 million tourists in a country that has 10 millions citizens you thing?
They mainly go to the bigger islands.


If they are not inhabited, they are either ''rocks'', or tiny. They are a few that can be used correctly, and in that, yes, they could rent them.
Those tiny islands are the best. They make, with some adaptation, fantastic private resorts. I have seen that in the Philippines but I couldn't afford the 20.000 peso the night.


That's why we should default. :wink
I disagree. Your country made the debts and forces us to destroy our own economy helping you so Greece should pay it back. Or I think that Germany, the Netherlands, France and Finland should simply take whatever is on the Acropolis or in the countless museums as collateral. That's what happens when you get into debt. Back in the good old days debtors got thrown into debtors prisons. While I do agree that a lot of problems were caused by the banks but you Greeks should have made sure that people didn't fraud the system and paid their taxes. After all Europe (and thus us and the Germans who have always paying our arses off) has invested quite a bit of money in Greece so defaulting would be considered fraud by just about everyone and be..national (more then just economic) suicide. Once the Greeks have paid off their debts they should be free to go.. but pay back the money we have invested and their debts they will.


They are inhabited because they are tiny, as I told you
6.000 islands, doesn't mean 6.000 islands in the size of Crete of Zakynthos, duhhhhhh

There are a lot of islands and beaches that can be put to good use.

[Queen B]

1. Exit the European Union
:thumbs up


2. Repatriate illegal immigrants

:thumbs up


3. Recognize minorities

We already do


4. Recognize Macedonia's sovereignty

Macedonia is a Greek region already.


5. Build economic partnership with Eastern markets (Turkey, Russia)
We already have, kind of, and once will exit EU , we will be making easier deals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Stream) with Russia
(http://english.ruvr.ru/2012_03_16/68596238/)

[Loki]

Greek bailout: Eurozone holds back 1bn-euro payment (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18014075)

The eurozone's rescue fund has decided to hold back 1bn euros ($1.3bn; £800m) of its latest instalment of its bailout to Greece.

This comes after a majority of Greeks voted against the political parties that supported the country's bailouts and the austerity they have imposed.

The rescue fund said that it would disburse 4.2bn euros of the 5.2bn euros due to Greece.

It said that Greece did not need the remaining funds this month.

The 1bn euros will be released later "depending on the financing needs of Greece", the board of the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF) said in a statement.

[The Lawspeaker]

That's not particularly respect for local democracy but I think that the Greeks should pay off their debts and then leave while we, the others, dismantle the Eurozone and the European Union. And with dismantle I mean... in a rather unpleasant way. Breakup of Yugoslavia-style but then all against "Brussels".

[Rron]

1. Exit the European Union


:thumbs up:

But

support the Greek government's efforts to get its economy back on track, euro-area Member States agreed on 2 May 2010 on a three-year programme, providing a total of EUR 80 billion in bilateral loans. Together with EUR 30 billion from a stand-by agreement with the IMF, a loan package of EUR 110 billion is formed.

Since May 2010, the euro-area Member States and the IMF provide financial support to Greece in the context of a sharp deterioration of its financing conditions.

On 2 May 2010, the Eurogroup agreed to provide bilateral loans pooled by the European Commission for a total amount of EUR 80 billion to be disbursed over the period May 2010 through June 2013. The financial assistance agreed by euro-area Member States is part of a joint package, with the IMF financing additional EUR 30 billion under a stand-by arrangement (SBA).

>> see also: Economies of the EU member states - Greece

Implementation
Under the Greek Loan Facility, the European Commission is not acting as a borrower but has been entrusted by the euro-area Member States with the coordination and administration of the pooled bilateral loans, including their disbursement to Greece.

Overview of disbursements, EUR billion (as of December 2011)
Tranche Disbursements Euro-area IMF Total
1 May 2010 14.5 5.5 20.0
2 Sept 2010 6.5 2.6 9.1
3 Dec 10 / Jan 11 6.5 2.5 9.0
4 March 2011 10.9 4.1 15.0
5 July 2011 8.7 3.2 11.9
6 December 2011 5.8 2.2 8.0
Total 52.9 20.1 73.0

Second economic adjustment programme for Greece
On 14 March 2012, euro area finance ministers approved financing of the second Greek economic adjustment programme for an amount of up to EUR 130 billion until 2014, including an IMF contribution of EUR 28 billion. Euro area Member States also authorised the EFSF to release the first instalment of a total amount of EUR 39.4 billion, which will be disbursed in several tranches. The release of the tranches will be based on observance of quantitative performance criteria and a positive evaluation of progress made with respect to policy criteria in Council Decision 2011/734/EU of 12 July 2011 (as amended in November 2011 and on 13 March 2012) and the Memorandum of Understanding setting the economic policy conditionality, which was signed on 14 March.

The finance ministers noted the assessment of the Troika that Greece has implemented all agreed prior actions in a satisfactory manner, and reiterated the importance of further strengthening Greece's institutional capacity. The ministers also based their decisions on the results of the debt sustainability analysis provided jointly by the Commission, the IMF and the ECB. The high private sector involvement (PSI) in Greece's debt exchange offer will make a significant contribution to improving Greece's debt sustainability. Out of a total of EUR 205.6 billion in bonds eligible for the exchange offer, approximately EUR 197 billion, or 95.7% have been exchanged.

The second economic adjustment programme is aimed at putting Greece's public debt ratio on a downward path to below 117% of GDP by 2020, building the basis for sustainable growth and jobs in Greece.

The programme will be accompanied by strengthened monitoring of the implementation of reforms in Greece.

Documents
01/03/2012 Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) between the European Commission, acting on behalf of the euro-area Member States and the Hellenic Republic [605 KB]

News articles and press releases
14/03/2012
Statement on Greece by the President of the Eurogroup, Jean-Claude Juncker
09/03/2012
Statement by Commission Vice-President Olli Rehn on private sector participation in the second Greek programme
08/03/2012
Eligibility of bonds issued or guaranteed by the Greek government in Eurosystem credit operations
06/03/2012
Letter from President Barroso to Prime Minister Papademos
01/03/2012
Statement on Greece by the President of the Eurogroup, Jean-Claude Juncker
29/02/2012 Nominate an EU Commissioner to help return Greece to growth, says Juncker to European Parliament
29/02/2012
Statement by President Barroso following his meeting with Mr Lucas Papademos, Greek Prime Minister
27/02/2012
Invitation from President Barroso to Prime Minister Papademos
21/02/2012 Statement on Greece by Vice-President Rehn at the Eurogroup
21/11/2011 Statement by President Barroso following his meeting with Lucas Papademos, Prime Minister of Greece. (SPEECH 11/778)
11/10/2011 Statement by the European Commission, the ECB and IMF on the Fifth Review Mission to Greece
13/09/2011 Questions and Answers on the Task Force for Greece
07/09/2011 Olli Rehn European Commissioner for Economic and Monetary Affairs Overcoming the Economic Crisis in Greece and Europe "Reset Greece" - ALDE Seminar Brussels
02/09/2011 Statement by the European Commission, the ECB and IMF on the Fifth Review Mission to Greece
27/07/2011 Information on IIF offer and debt-buy-back scheme
21/07/2011 Euro-area summit agreement on a new financial support programme for Greece
02/07/2011 Statement by the Eurogroup
02/07/2011 Greece - Commission publishes compliance report and recommends that disbursement should take place
03/06/2011 Statement by the EC, ECB and IMF on the Fourth Review Mission to Greece
24/02/2011 Statement by the EC, ECB and IMF on the Third Review Mission to Greece
23/11/2010 Statement by the EC, ECB, and IMF on the Second Review Mission to Greece
05/08/2010 Statement by the EC, ECB, and IMF on the first review mission to Greece
07/07/2010 The economic adjustment programme for Greece - Interim review
17/06/2010 EC, ECB and IMF Interim review mission to Greece, press statement
31/05/2010 The economic adjustment programme for Greece, Occasional Papers no 61
03/05/2010 Euro area and IMF agreement on financial support programme for Greece
11/04/2010 Eurogroup statement on the support to Greece
26/03/2010 Spring European Council statement on Greece

Programme reports
The Second Economic Adjustment Programme for Greece - March 2012
The Economic Adjustment Programme for Greece. Fifth review - autumn 2011
The Economic Adjustment Programme for Greece. Fourth review - spring 2011
The Economic Adjustment Programme for Greece. Third review - February 2011
The Economic Adjustment Programme for Greece. Second review - autumn 2010
The Economic Adjustment Programme for Greece. First review - summer 2010
The Economic Adjustment Programme for Greece



http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/eu_borrower/greek_loan_facility/index_en.htm

[The Lawspeaker]

Paid for by us Northerners (as always).

[Yaroslav]

:thumbs up

:thumbs up

We already do

Macedonia is a Greek region already.

We already have, kind of, and once will exit EU , we will be making easier deals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Stream) with Russia
(http://english.ruvr.ru/2012_03_16/68596238/)

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Macedonia

The only recognized minorities are Muslims, Armenians, and Jews.

Macedonians, Bulgarians, Vlachs, and Arvanites have no rights in your country.

[Queen B]

Those tiny islands are the best. They make, with some adaptation, fantastic private resorts. I have seen that in the Philippines but I couldn't afford the 20.000 peso the night.

Ι don't think is very easy to build a resort in a rocky island, in the middle of nowhere, in a place that would be quite far from a quite-bigger place
http://nationalpride.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/l_4107301.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_jayBnihaHjA/TFQL-pholkI/AAAAAAAAAko/GV9l0uMx8ig/s1600/imia3.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_H0EN9jGlhDw/SxrydT5aZuI/AAAAAAAACYg/Qgblz-sv3Gc/s400/%CE%A8%CE%A5%CE%9B%CE%9B%CE%9F%CE%A3.jpg


I disagree. Your country made the debts and forces us to destroy our own economy helping you so Greece should pay it back. Or I think that Germany, the Netherlands, France and Finland should simply take whatever is on the Acropolis or in the countless museums as collateral.
Seriously?:bullet puke
How the fuck is Germany asking that back, when they didn't even pay their own debts back?
Why those fucking double standards?
Its not only Greece that has obligations but the rest , too.
None of our allies have every did what they had to do, as promised,so, its time to do the same.
I WANT us to default, I want us to cut all ties with EU, it would be fun :cool:

[Graham]

That's not particularly respect for local democracy but I think that the Greeks should pay off their debts

How long would that take? The greek members on this forum will be very old by then. Wouldn't like that.

Once apon a time in the late 70's. A bankrupt Uk recieved an IMF bail-out. Then we got Thatcher, who still today is hated by many here.

[The Lawspeaker]

Ι don't think is very easy to build a resort in a rocky island, in the middle of nowhere, in a place that would be quite far from a quite-bigger place
http://nationalpride.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/l_4107301.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_jayBnihaHjA/TFQL-pholkI/AAAAAAAAAko/GV9l0uMx8ig/s1600/imia3.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_H0EN9jGlhDw/SxrydT5aZuI/AAAAAAAACYg/Qgblz-sv3Gc/s400/%CE%A8%CE%A5%CE%9B%CE%9B%CE%9F%CE%A3.jpg

There are plenty of other places that can be used.

Seriously?:bullet puke
How the fuck is Germany asking that back, when they didn't even pay their own debts back?
Why those fucking double standards?
Its not only Greece that has obligations but the rest , too.
None of our allies have every did what they had to do, as promised,so, its time to do the same.
I WANT us to default, I want us to cut all ties with EU, it would be fun :cool:
Try walking into a restaurant or hotel and eat whatever is on the menu and walk out without paying. See what happens. Because that's basically what Greece would then be doing.

I think that countries like Germany could sign arrangements with Turkey that we are going to collect the debts the way a bailiff does: by slamming in the door, wielding a warrant to take whatever is of any value until the debt has been collected. As we would say here: goedschiks of kwaadschiks.

[Queen B]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Macedonia

The only recognized minorities are Muslims, Armenians, and Jews.

Macedonians, Bulgarians, Vlachs, and Arvanites have no rights in your country.
1)Vlachs and Arvanites have been asked by the Greek government to became a minority and they refused, because they feel Greeks,and they don't want to feel anything else '' within '' their own country.
2) There are only a few ethnic Bulgarians that are Greek citizens (and orthodox). Most of them are Pomaks, and they are already part of the Muslim minority.
3) Macedonians are Greeks, sorry. The Fyromians in Greece, are not more than 5.000, and they are certainly not enough to form a minority, in a country of 11 millions.

[The Lawspeaker]

How long would that take? The greek members on this forum will be very old by then. Wouldn't like that.


Then they shouldn't have loaned the money. That's how things go. When you walk into a restaurant and you order a meal you pay the bill. And if you can't then they will make you do the dishes.

[Rron]

Even if Greece exit immediatelly EU the debt must be payed, and then the question is, how would survive Greece with all those debt without any economical support programmes, because somebody here think that removal from EU means escaping from debts, :no:

[Romanion]

Even if Greece exit immediatelly EU the debt must be payed an then the question is how would survive Greece with all those debt without any economical support programmes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odious_debt

[The Lawspeaker]

Even if Greece exit immediatelly EU the debt must be payed an then the question is how would survive Greece with all those debt without any economical support programmes.
It wouldn't. If Greece would default after leaving the EU it would make it's position even more impossible. So they might just as well stay in while it is the rest of us that should find a way on how to deal with the banks that did such a terrible job. We shouldn't give them a penny because we owe them nothing but when it comes to Greece they should learn their lesson.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odious_debt
A bullshit principle. The Greeks knew what they were getting themselves into. Greece wasn't under a tyrannical regime, wasn't under occupation. So there is no odious debt and yes: the people actually benefitted from all those new motorways, railways, agricultural funds and whatnot.

We paid this one for you and many others like it:

0rYHc-zV5SI

[Queen B]

Try walking into a restaurant or hotel and eat whatever is on the menu and walk out without paying. See what happens. Because that's basically what Greece would then be doing.

If I walk in the restaurant, wanting to eat, but they serve me rotten food, instead of fresh, I won't pay.
:wink


I think that countries like Germany could sign arrangements with Turkey that we are going to collect the debts the way a bailiff does: by slamming in the door, wielding a warrant to take whatever is of any value until the debt has been collected. As we would say here: goedschiks of kwaadschiks.
Be my guest.
Then, we will do the same with Germany, I guess. :wink

[The Lawspeaker]

If I walk in the restaurant, wanting to eat, but they serve me rotten food, instead of fresh, I won't pay.
:wink
No - you have to pay because you ate it. That's right: otherwise you're swindling.


Be my guest.
Then, we will do the same with Germany, I guess. :wink
The Germans have no debts in Greece.. whereas Greece on the other hand.

[Yaroslav]

1)Vlachs and Arvanites have been asked by the Greek government to became a minority and they refused, because they feel Greeks,and they don't want to feel anything else '' within '' their own country.
2) There are only a few ethnic Bulgarians that are Greek citizens (and orthodox). Most of them are Pomaks, and they are already part of the Muslim minority.
3) Macedonians are Greeks, sorry. The Fyromians in Greece, are not more than 5.000, and they are certainly not enough to form a minority, in a country of 11 millions.

The only reason Macedonian number is so low because Greece doesn't recognize Macedonian nation. By "fyromians" I assume you mean Macedonians from Republic of Macedonia, immigrants. If you put Macedonian option on census the numbers will surprise you, although the number is lower than it used to be due to Hellenization and deportations.

[Rron]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odious_debt
Ah you are not case where odious debt can be practiced , its not discussion here about changing regime, otherwise if you use a such strategy its prety wise but i dont think that EU are such stupid .


In a Policy Analysis for the Cato Institute, Patricia Adams suggested that the debts incurred by the Iraqi state during the rule of Saddam Hussein are odious, as the money borrowed was spent on weapons, instruments of repression and palaces.
What you have in common with Saddam regime , for example?

Also the Odious debt is analogue of contract signed under coercion.

[Rouxinol]

Seriously?:bullet puke
How the fuck is Germany asking that back, when they didn't even pay their own debts back?
Why those fucking double standards?
Its not only Greece that has obligations but the rest , too.
None of our allies have every did what they had to do, as promised,so, its time to do the same.
I WANT us to default, I want us to cut all ties with EU, it would be fun :cool:

This is all about greed. German judeo-masonic banks and inverstors (whose Merkel is favorite bitch) were greed enough to keep on lending money like crazy to Greek banks finance themselves and heavily indebt Greeks as well as the country - and actively promoting it. Of course this couldn't last forever... Now that it bursted and the Greek economy makes not enough to pay it back because it's been choked by Germany's own interests they are all oh so surprised... This is the problem in the EU, there's no commonality between nations/peoples so that true solidarity between equals is not possible - Europe is not the USA.

[Romanion]

Ah you are not case where odious debt can be practiced , its not discussion here about changing regime, otherwise if you use a such strategy its prety wise but i dont think that EU are such stupid .


What you have in common with Saddam regime , for example?

Corrupt politicians swindling money. Troika dictating policy to Greece is a dictatorship more or less.

[Petros Houhoulis]

My tips:

Greece sell her islands, so I think Turkey would help her. And it will over a lot of conflicts in the Egean sea for islands sovereignty.

Also if it was possible - I would pay 100 Euro for an island but it must be cleaned off the greeks on it otherwise I pay nothing.

You'd rather hurry, before the Netherlands sinks under the Atlantic Ocean.

[Queen B]

No - you have to pay because you ate it. That's right: otherwise you're swindling.

No, I have to throw the rotten food in his face, and sue him for what he served me :wink


The Germans have no debts in Greece.. whereas Greece on the other hand.
They have. (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2093990,00.html)
Remember that your north media selectively shows you what they want to show you, and I have repeatadly proved my point on that, in things that you have never heard of , and they were true.
In that case is war reparations, loans that took in the name of Greece during ww2, stolen goods from museums, etc.
Germany grow, in the walking in the bodies of the rest (by paying nothing). Its time to do the same, because as it seems, this is what ''strong'' countries, do.
Did they payed a single penny? No, nothing.So,its time to do the same :cool:
Make a search in the forum, I talked about the exact same thing a bit ago (providing some sources, too). I m tired to speak for the same thing again, and spent my precious time on meaningless shit, sorry Tuan. Search that topic, and we can continue about what Germany owes to Greece, after that.

[The Lawspeaker]

No, I have to throw the rotten food in his face, and sue him for what he served me :wink
That would be impossible after you have eaten it. Then it would be seen as swindling.


They have. (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2093990,00.html)
Remember that your north media selectively shows you what they want to show you, and I have repeatadly proved my point on that, in things that you have never heard of , and they were true.
In that case is war reparations, loans that took in the name of Greece during ww2, stolen goods from museums, etc.
Germany grow, in the walking in the bodies of the rest (by paying nothing). Its time to do the same, because as it seems, this is what ''strong'' countries, do.
Did they payed a single penny? No, nothing.So,its time to do the same :cool:
Make a search in the forum, I talked about the exact same thing a bit ago (providing some sources, too). I m tired to speak for the same thing again, and spent my precious time on meaningless shit, sorry Tuan. Search that topic, and we can continue about what Germany owes to Greece, after that.
And because Time says it is true ? - Well suppose you're not paying it back to Germany what about the other EU countries that have no "war debts" to Greece ?

[The Lawspeaker]

You'd rather hurry, before the Netherlands sinks under the Atlantic Ocean.
Will never happen as we are not located along the Atlantic. :D But yes: we are now spending money on Greece and other "garlic countries" (as we call them here) and that is also going at the expense our dike maintenance. An inquiry held a couple of years ago showed that 26 percent of all dikes had structural issues because of a lack of maintenance. This is mainly along the rivers though.

[Graham]

Then they shouldn't have loaned the money. That's how things go. When you walk into a restaurant and you order a meal you pay the bill. And if you can't then they will make you do the dishes.

You're cleaning so many dishes over a long period. There's no time to work and make money. Only choice is to swindle more or starve.

[Queen B]

The only reason Macedonian number is so low because Greece doesn't recognize Macedonian nation.
The number is low, because that it is.


By "fyromians" I assume you mean Macedonians from Republic of Macedonia, immigrants.
No, by Fyromians I mean the so-called ''Macedonians'' by origin, but Greek citizens.

If you put Macedonian option on census the numbers will surprise you, although the number is lower than it used to be due to Hellenization and deportations.
1) Go to the ''celebrations'' of their people in some so-called ''Macedonian''-majority Greek villages.
Even with visitors that come from Skopje by bus, the amount don't exceed the number I gave you
2) They have sent a party in the elections. 3.000 votes.
I will be kind enough to raise the number in 5.000
3) Those that got ''deported'', were before 60 years ago, because they side with communists, and both got exiled.
So, they don't count in the ''number'' of the ''minority'' as they are not citizens of Greece.

Stop reading the propaganda shit of Fyromians.

[The Lawspeaker]

You're cleaning so many dishes over a long period. There's no time to work and make money. Only choice is to swindle more or starve.
Then the restaurant owner calls the police and has the swindler arrested. For Greece that would mean that the case would be brought before the UN and that the IMF would go in and just take whatever is of any value and give it to the cheated restaurant owner.

[Romanion]

Will never happen as we are not located along the Atlantic. :D But yes: we are now spending money on Greece and other "garlic countries" (as we call them here) and that is also going at the expense our dike maintenance. An inquiry held a couple of years ago showed that 26 percent of all dikes had structural issues because of a lack of maintenance. This is mainly along the rivers though.

The left didn't manage to form a coalition government, I don't think Greece is going to leave the Euro, but the laon conditions might change.

[The Lawspeaker]

The left didn't manage to form a coalition government, I don't think Greece is going to leave the Euro, but the laon conditions might change.
It could be a lot tougher now. I think the EU is wrong there since there is no reason to change the conditions. They should be harsh when Greece tries to leave - not yet.

[Rron]

Corrupt politicians swindling money. Troika dictating policy to Greece is a dictatorship more or less.
You missed this part:


Odious debt is analogue of contract signed under coercion.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Hear me out ... this may sound improbable, but could be the only workable solution.

How about ... a mighty domain on both sides of the Bosphorus .. both Greece and Turkey are no longer looking to the European Union for answers. They should go in allegiance together, and it would give the middle finger to the EU!! Imagine that ... a mighty empire that could rival that of the Byzantine era!!

Thoughts?

That would be more likely an answer to Turkeys' problems:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

Greek GDP/capita(nominal): $26.600 ~ $29.000
Turkish GDP/capital(nominal): $9.700 ~ $10.500

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OECD_countries_by_GDP_per_capita

Greek GDP/capita: $26.600 ~ $28.400
Turkish GDP/capita: $10.000 ~ $15.600

The Byzantine era was not exactly the best era of the Mediterranean, you know. In any case, we do not seek any Turks above our heads, and we do not like their religion either.

We cannot agree on a vast array of issues including the Cyprus issue, and they remain as bloody as ever. For all the Turkish trail of corpses, Onur flees away and pretends he knows nothing - or at best he provides falsified data.

[Romanion]

It could be a lot tougher now. I think the EU is wrong there since there is no reason to change the conditions. They should be harsh when Greece tries to leave - not yet.

Will you miss us?

[Romanion]

You missed this part:


Odious debt is analogue of contract signed under coercion.

Troika

[Petros Houhoulis]

Greece should consolidate its budget itself- no point in looking for miracle help from other countries, especially now when Greece's crediting reputation is uber-fucked up.

...We are waiting from the E.U. to fully implement the promised in the Maastricht treaty first. I hope you have read it...

[The Lawspeaker]

Will you miss us?
I won't miss the EU because we should leave ourselves. But Greece has it's debts to pay off and leaving the EU/Eurozone would be like leaving the restaurant after having eaten - leaving the restaurant owner with the bill.

[The Lawspeaker]

TroikaThere was no Troika for the past 20 years so that lame excuse doesn't work.

[Petros Houhoulis]

What do you propose then? Greece against the entire world? It would be in Greece's benefit to build some alliances.

Greece is still in the E.U. and NATO. There is no prediction of that changing anytime soon.

[Romanion]

I won't miss the EU because we should leave ourselves. But Greece has it's debts to pay off and leaving the EU/Eurozone would be like leaving the restaurant after having eaten - leaving the restaurant owner with the bill.

I understand what you are saying, but it wouldn't be the first time Greece defaulted... or second... or third. Greece should put itself as priority above other countries. But like I said before, I really don't think Greece will leave the Euro.

[Queen B]

That would be impossible after you have eaten it. Then it would be seen as swindling.

Tuan, gimme a break. You are keep posting the same shit in every thread.
So far Greece is taking more and more loans to pay back the previous loans, PLUS the high interest.
That's why our debt is getting bigger and bigger.
So, so far, you haven't lost anything, only winning.
Only if we default you'll do. Up until then, we will be getting more and more indebt to you (EU).
So, stop bitching.
Start to, only if we default.


And because Time says it is true ?
I posted a source in another thread, that's why I asked you to search the forum. I' m not willing to spend my precious time posting the same shit again.
Time was the first link I found in English, to sum up the whole deal about it .


- Well suppose you're not paying it back to Germany what about the other EU countries that have no "war debts" to Greece ?
The contribution of Germany is huge, compared to the rest of other countries.
Don't worry, I ll -personally- give you the 1€ that is your share of the bailout.


This is all about greed. German judeo-masonic banks and inverstors (whose Merkel is favorite bitch) were greed enough to keep on lending money like crazy to Greek banks finance themselves and heavily indebt Greeks as well as the country - and actively promoting it. Of course this couldn't last forever... Now that it bursted and the Greek economy makes not enough to pay it back because it's been choked by Germany's own interests they are all oh so surprised... This is the problem in the EU, there's no commonality between nations/peoples so that true solidarity between equals is not possible - Europe is not the USA.

:thumbs up

[Petros Houhoulis]

I don't think Greece will cause Germany's downfall. Don't flatter yourselves too much. :p

Greece shall not cause Germanys' fall, but you should all learn a few things about Hieromyax...

...'Cause it might flood Europe again...

[Queen B]

There was no Troika for the past 20 years so that lame excuse doesn't work.

:confused::confused::confused:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_sovereign_debt_crisis#Austerity_and_loan_ agreement

[Petros Houhoulis]

Loki, an alliance between Greece, Turkey, Cyprus controls whole east-med which also causes them to control middle-eastern and central Asian energy corridors to Europe at the same time.

The primary reason of the resurrection of Greece after ~2000 years of "gap"(!!!) was to end this possibility. So, an alliance with Turkey is against the most basic national cause of Greece. Greece has been founded to constitute a barrier against Turkey. This is their raison d`etre. I am not sure which one, probably both but they are either failed to achieve this or that barrier is not necessary anymore but thats why Greece is failing for some time. Their existence has totally became unnecessary and futile for great powers after cold war era ended. Greece has lost it`s importance for the world powers and not likely they will regain it in the foreseeable future.

Perhaps you forgot that Greece became independent long before the importance of oil was elevated to the status it was.

Perhaps all of the Balkaners and the Arabs gave you a huge kick in the boot because they hated you - and the Arabs were helped rebel because of their oil, but still, it was a century later.

[Romanion]

Perhaps you forgot that Greece became independent long before the importance of oil was elevated to the status it was.

Perhaps all of the Balkaners and the Arabs gave you a huge kick in the boot because they hated you - and the Arabs were helped rebel because of their oil, but still, it was a century later.

Onur is a strange Pomak with his theories.

[The Lawspeaker]

:confused::confused::confused:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_sovereign_debt_crisis#Austerity_and_loan_ agreement
There was no troika until recently either and as such there is no odious debt whatsoever.

[Petros Houhoulis]

For the ones who still thinks like Turkey supposedly dreams about capturing Greece;

Just try to be logic. Greece owns ~450 billions of Euros of debt to northern Europe while having ~300 billions worth of GDP and this is shrinking further down every year. They have no industry and no agriculture besides olives. Their sailing industry is dead already. Even tiny Croatia is about to surpass Greece in tourism due to Greece being in Eurozone. So, what Turkey or anyone gains from there? Absolutely nothing.

EU`s big guns already poured out Greece`s resources [incl. human resources] like their African colonies and it`s dead in terms of economy. Their citizens became like parasites who only leech but produce nothing. All in all, Greece`s value in any standard of the world economy is close to zero atm.

I love your sense of humor. Both the tourist industry and the shipping industries are standing, although the Golden dawn shall cost us some tourists.

Greece still has approximately double the GDP/capita that Turkey has.

[The Lawspeaker]

I understand what you are saying, but it wouldn't be the first time Greece defaulted... or second... or third. Greece should put itself as priority above other countries. But like I said before, I really don't think Greece will leave the Euro.
I hope that Greece will be so wise not to do it because next time she might end up without trading partners. I read somewhere that this year alone the number of German tourists travelling to Greece has collapsed. I need to look up the article (http://www.telegraaf.nl/reiskrant/weekjeweg/12001659/__Toeristen_uitgekeken_op_Griekenland__.html). The situation (http://www.z24.nl/economie/artikel_346647.z24/Duitse_toeristen_mijden_Griekenland.html), for Greece, is downright depressing.

[Petros Houhoulis]

He has a point though. It's like the Philippines: you have so many beautiful islands and a lot of them are uninhabited. Sell or lease them to a private investor that wants to build a resort and you cash in on them and you don't need to do much: they also need to get in the building materials, the workers and the infrastructure. After all: it is possible to buy land or a house on the mainland as well.

Of course: it would be for a bit more then 100 but... :cool:

Many islands were for sale long before the crisis. We sold one to an emir for 10 million dollars a few days ago.

[Rron]

:confused::confused::confused:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_sovereign_debt_crisis#Austerity_and_loan_ agreement
But this have nothing to do with cases when odious debt can be practiced.

[Queen B]

I love your sense of humor. Both the tourist industry and the shipping industries are standing, although the Golden dawn shall cost us some tourists.

Greece still has approximately double the GDP/capita that Turkey has.

Greece's tourism was plus +11% in 2011.
Up until now, in Zakynthos, we have +3% for April, and what-is-so-far for May :wink

[Yaroslav]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/Greece_linguistic_minorities.png

Areas where Greeks are minorities.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Do not dramatize the situation. You didn't shed a single drop of blood for neither the Aegean/mediterranean islands nor for the western Thrace.

That's because we smashed your navy in the Balkan wars, and the Bulgarians were foolish enough to invade us and shed our blood in Macedonia during WWI - but not in Western Thrace.


The islands was ~500 years old Turkish territory but occupied by Italy during WW-1 and they left all of them to Greece by the orders of British during the Paris peace conference after the war. Thats exactly why Italians recaptured all the islands from you in WW-2 because they were thinking like it was an unfair decision of Anglo-Saxons.

It was not Turkish territory but Ottoman. There is quite a difference: Even Turkey rebelled against the Sultan in the end.

The most of the islands were liberated by the Greek navy during the Balkan war I. Only the Dodecanese was Italian until WWII.


Tuan B., it`s a useless idea because most of these islands were never inhabited and Greece is even struggling to provide electricity, clean water to the big islands. Even Greek Cyprus had to buy electricity from Turkish Cypriots after an explosion in their one and only electricity terminal.

Yes, we are struggling because the islands bring the most tourists, you know. They leave more money than they require though.


Greece is ~1000 miles away from these islands while some of them are visible from Turkish coasts by naked eye. Greece cannot provide enough resources to sustain economical viability to these islands. They neither have manpower nor economy to maintain what they have.

Actually, we do so for all of the inhabited islands.


So, they are holding a heavier burden than they can carry, a burden given to them by great powers a century ago.

Nope, the islands bring more tourist revenue than we spend for their maintenance.

[Petros Houhoulis]

But it will of course be at our expense and we are not seeing a penny of it.

We are keeping the borders of Europe since... Ever... And we never got a thank you either.

Why did I have to spend 19 months of the most productive years of my life in the army, when you were making money at that time? Because the defense of a common border was never an issue for you...

[The Lawspeaker]

Greece's tourism was plus +11% in 2011.
Up until now, in Zakynthos, we have +3% for April, and what-is-so-far for May :wink
Reuters disagrees (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/uk-greece-election-germans-idUSLNE83O02I20120425). Wed Apr 25, 2012


A plunge in advance bookings from Germany (http://www.reuters.com/places/germany) may lead to overall tourism revenues falling 5 percent in 2012, said Greek Tourism Enterprises head Andreas Andreadis.


(Reuters) - German tourists are in short supply in Greece these days, frightened away by reports of visceral anti-German sentiment in some places, fears of being stranded by strikes and television images of fiery anti-austerity riots.
Who in their right mind, after all, would want to go on holiday to a place where they might be called a Nazi?

[The Lawspeaker]

We are keeping the borders of Europe since... Ever... And we never got a thank you either.
You have only been there since 1830 thanks to the British and French and we owe you nothing at all. The Ottomans were at Vienna in 1683. Thank you Austria, Poland and the German States.

[Queen B]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/Greece_linguistic_minorities.png

Areas where Greeks are minorities.

Another shitty propaganda map, not valid at all.
I can only laugh on that

Stop reading Fyromian shitty blogs and sites, for your own good :thumbs up

[Petros Houhoulis]

1. Exit the European Union

2. Repatriate illegal immigrants

3. Recognize minorities

4. Recognize Macedonia's sovereignty

5. Build economic partnership with Eastern markets (Turkey, Russia)

We do not deny anybodys' sovereignty.

[Yaroslav]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Slavic_tribes_in_the_Balkans.png

Most of modern Greece was mainly populated by Slavs more than thousand years ago.

[The Lawspeaker]

If anything.. the Austrians have guarded Europe's borders for ages. So.. we owe our gratitude to Austria. Not to Greece. There was no Greece until 1830.

[Yaroslav]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Macedonians_on_a_french_map.jpg

[Petros Houhoulis]

They mainly go to the bigger islands.


Those tiny islands are the best. They make, with some adaptation, fantastic private resorts. I have seen that in the Philippines but I couldn't afford the 20.000 peso the night.


I disagree. Your country made the debts and forces us to destroy our own economy helping you so Greece should pay it back. Or I think that Germany, the Netherlands, France and Finland should simply take whatever is on the Acropolis or in the countless museums as collateral. That's what happens when you get into debt. Back in the good old days debtors got thrown into debtors prisons. While I do agree that a lot of problems were caused by the banks but you Greeks should have made sure that people didn't fraud the system and paid their taxes. After all Europe (and thus us and the Germans who have always paying our arses off) has invested quite a bit of money in Greece so defaulting would be considered fraud by just about everyone and be..national (more then just economic) suicide. Once the Greeks have paid off their debts they should be free to go.. but pay back the money we have invested and their debts they will.



There are a lot of islands and beaches that can be put to good use.

Greece has to keep its' promises. We got that. The only problem is that an economy into recession shall not be able to do so. There is a need to bring development, even by "taxing the sun" i.e. harvesting solar energy.

You now, Greece has more sun than the Netherlands does, and it can produce more energy then you do in this manner. Maybe we are simply more efficient then you at something...

Plenty of beaches and islands are for sale you know. Nobody is buying because of the taxes!!!

[Queen B]

Reuters disagrees

An article about Germans says what? :lol: See the number of arrivals in total, that's what makes sense, not an article about German tourists.
http://english.capital.gr/News.asp?id=1381132
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/21/business/global/sliver-of-hope-in-greeces-tourist-allure.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

[Petros Houhoulis]

Greek bailout: Eurozone holds back 1bn-euro payment (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18014075)

The eurozone's rescue fund has decided to hold back 1bn euros ($1.3bn; £800m) of its latest instalment of its bailout to Greece.

This comes after a majority of Greeks voted against the political parties that supported the country's bailouts and the austerity they have imposed.

The rescue fund said that it would disburse 4.2bn euros of the 5.2bn euros due to Greece.

It said that Greece did not need the remaining funds this month.

The 1bn euros will be released later "depending on the financing needs of Greece", the board of the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF) said in a statement.

Fair.

[The Lawspeaker]

Greece has to keep its' promises. We got that. The only problem is that an economy into recession shall not be able to do so.
Well.. you would still have to pay.
There is a need to bring development, even by "taxing the sun" i.e. harvesting solar energy.

You now, Greece has more sun than the Netherlands does, and it can produce more energy then you do in this manner. Maybe we are simply more efficient then you at something...
You have the location.. which you are not using. And the only way in which you can use it is by getting yourself deeper in debt to us while we have to push ourside our own economy, our own dikes, our own elderly, our own education system just so we can "help" you at our expense and we will get nothing in return from it.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Paid for by us Northerners (as always).

Hieromyax is coming!

[The Lawspeaker]

An article about Germans says what? :lol: See the number of arrivals in total, that's what makes sense, not an article about German tourists.
http://english.capital.gr/News.asp?id=1381132
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/21/business/global/sliver-of-hope-in-greeces-tourist-allure.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all
My article is much more recent. Yours is 2011 and tourists that were there in 2011 are not making you money now. Mine dates back to April 2012.

[Queen B]

Well.. you would still have to pay.
You have the location.. which you are not using. And the only way in which you can use it is by getting yourself deeper in debt to us while we have to push ourside our own economy, our own dikes, our own elderly, our own education system just so we can "help" you at our expense and we will get nothing in return from it.
Its okay, I told you I ll give you the 1€ of your share back
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=882234&postcount=90

[Petros Houhoulis]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Macedonia

The only recognized minorities are Muslims, Armenians, and Jews.

Macedonians, Bulgarians, Vlachs, and Arvanites have no rights in your country.

Why don't they have rights? Because they are not recognized?

They have the right to elect their own members at all levels, some of them succeed, some others fail. Those who fail are usually those who do not really exist...

Greece is a democracy. Either you like it or not...

[The Lawspeaker]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Macedonians_on_a_french_map.jpg

Dating back to when ?

[The Lawspeaker]

Its okay, I told you I ll give you the 1€ of your share back
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=882234&postcount=90
The thing that Greece needs to pay a lot more then that.

[Queen B]

My article is much more recent. Yours is 2011 and tourists that were there in 2011 are not making you money now. Mine dates back to April 2012.
Come on Tuan, you are smarter than the other haters.

Did you read your article?
Your article is about IF some GERMAN tourists plan to visit Greece or not and why, in 2012
An estimation of the visitors of a specific group.
My article is HOW MANY tourists, of every nationality DID actually VISITED Greece, in 2011.
An actual number of the whole tourist arrivals about 2011

[Petros Houhoulis]

The only reason Macedonian number is so low because Greece doesn't recognize Macedonian nation. By "fyromians" I assume you mean Macedonians from Republic of Macedonia, immigrants. If you put Macedonian option on census the numbers will surprise you, although the number is lower than it used to be due to Hellenization and deportations.

They have their political party, it never got more than 5.000 votes on its' own and 7.500 votes in allegiance with OAKKE.

Check their website:

www.florina.org

They are such a failure that they do not even bother to participate in national elections anymore.

[The Lawspeaker]

They have the right to elect their own members at all levels, some of them succeed, some others fail. Those who fail are usually those who do not really exist...
Or because they have been bred out by the Greeks. You know.. that's what happens to minorities. They happen to be.. minorities.


Greece is a democracy. Either you like it or not...
They same the same about France.. but we all know how much France respects it's minorities.

[Yaroslav]

Dating back to when ?

1918

[Petros Houhoulis]

That would be impossible after you have eaten it. Then it would be seen as swindling.

And because Time says it is true ? - Well suppose you're not paying it back to Germany what about the other EU countries that have no "war debts" to Greece ?

Greece has to pay its' debts. There should be no argument about it.

Nevertheless, if you are seeking odious debts, I can bring you proof. They were with British banks even before Greece was recognized as a state.

In any case, none of them concerns the Netherlands or any other European country.

[The Lawspeaker]

Come on Tuan, you are smarter than the other haters.

Did you read your article?
Your article is about IF some GERMAN tourists plan to visit Greece or not and why, in 2012
An estimation of the visitors of a specific group.
My article is HOW MANY tourists, of every nationality DID actually VISITED Greece, in 2011.
An actual number of the whole tourist arrivals about 2011
You keep on making the past (2011) representative for today. It doesn't work like that. There are plenty (http://parakalo.wordpress.com/2012/04/26/minder-toeristen-naar-griekenland/) of Dutch (http://www.rtl.nl/components/actueel/editienl/nieuws/2012/w15/griekenland-is-uit-voor-vakantieganger.xml) articles (http://www.telegraaf.nl/reiskrant/weekjeweg/12001659/__Toeristen_uitgekeken_op_Griekenland__.html) about (http://travel.blog.nl/1000-en-meer-bestemmingen/europa/griekenland-europa-vakantiebestemmingen/2012/04/10/griekenland-minder-populair-bij-toeristen) it too.

[The Lawspeaker]

Greece has to pay its' debts. There should be no argument about it.

Nevertheless, if you are seeking odious debts, I can bring you proof. They were with British banks even before Greece was recognized as a state.

In any case, none of them concerns the Netherlands or any other European country.
Yes it does concern us because we loaned you money and to call your debts odious is a falsehood at best and looking for pathetic excuses for your country to weasel itself out of it's voluntary and legal commitments at worst.

[rashka]

Another shitty propaganda map, not valid at all.
I can only laugh on that

Stop reading Fyromian shitty blogs and sites, for your own good :thumbs up

I don't believe that the Slavic part is propaganda as I personally know some Northern Greeks and they tell me that there are slavic villages in Northern Greece.

[Crn Volk]

I don't believe that the Slavic part is propaganda as I personally know some Northern Greeks and they tell me that there are slavic villages in Northern Greece.

It seems that Greece has a curious mix of economic problems, and minority/national issues;

http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/Minorities_of_Greece.html

reminds of a country that once existed in the region;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Breakup_of_Yugoslavia-TRY2.gif/300px-Breakup_of_Yugoslavia-TRY2.gif

[Queen B]

You keep on making the past (2011) representative for today. It doesn't work like that. There are plenty (http://parakalo.wordpress.com/2012/04/26/minder-toeristen-naar-griekenland/) of Dutch (http://www.rtl.nl/components/actueel/editienl/nieuws/2012/w15/griekenland-is-uit-voor-vakantieganger.xml) articles (http://www.telegraaf.nl/reiskrant/weekjeweg/12001659/__Toeristen_uitgekeken_op_Griekenland__.html) about (http://travel.blog.nl/1000-en-meer-bestemmingen/europa/griekenland-europa-vakantiebestemmingen/2012/04/10/griekenland-minder-populair-bij-toeristen) it too.

Tuan, did you read my first comment (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=882257#post882257)?
My comment was that Greece's tourism was +11% in the 2011.
So , I was right on spot and you kept answering about irrelevant things.

In my next comment, I provided a source of 2012 that validates what I said, and the second link what a mid-2011 article, about this estimation. (to prove that was estimated for 2011, became true)

So far, we can't say anything about 2012, and the articles about Germans visiting Greece is a joke because it a simple article and it talks only about Germans.

I dare to say that we have the same estimations for 2012, that tourism will rise , just like it happened in 2011 (which came true).

Our tourism is alive and kicking, no matter how you don't like it :coffee:

They only comment I made about 2012, is that Zakyntho's tourism is +3%, for April/MidMay.
And ironically, so far, the flights to Zakynthos are from UK and Netherlands :lol:
(Gatwick,Manchester and Amsterdam)

[Queen B]

I don't believe that the Slavic part is propaganda as I personally know some Northern Greeks and they tell me that there are slavic villages in Northern Greece.
The terminology you use is fault. There are no Slavic villages.
There are Greek villages with a big Slavic presence.

Υes, there are a ...... couple of them. Their ''biggest'' one and their main reference in every propaganda site is Meliti, with the tottal population of ... 1500 people, whereas not all of them are Slavs.The population is devided in Pontic Greeks and Slavs.

That's they huge number we are talking about :lol00002:


It seems that Greece has a curious mix of economic problems, and minority/national issues;

Sokol, we are not FyroB,neither Turkey, thankfully.
Our 1/4 of the population are not Albanians, neither our ethnic nationals call themselves Bulgarians day by day.

[Anarch]

My answer: governmental collapse. Greece might not sort out its problems, but the Greeks can do it. I think they need a free hand, though.

[Hayalet]

There is just no way for Greece and Turkey to join in a federation. But I think it's in Greece's interests to improve relations with Turkey, if for nothing else, so that it could cut military spending. Then again, hard times like these are known to bolster the strength of radical nationalists.

[Onur]

But I think it's in Greece's interests to improve relations with Turkey, if for nothing else, so that it could cut military spending.
I say one more time;
This is something against the fundamental basics of Greece. Greece have to be or at least act like an enemy of Turkey and this is a must for them.

Also a corporation between Greece and Turkey is a bad thing for the German, French and US warmachine too. Greece is some kind of junkyard for them, where they can sell their 2nd hand military equipment for billions of dollars. They also do the same to Turkey too. Greece buys 20 billion dollars worth of military equipment from them every year, they buy even in this bad situation of economical crisis.

If the tension between Greece and Turkey reduces, then who will buy the 20 billion dollars worth of junk? And a friendly Turkey and Greece might cooperate for utilizing the energy sources in mediterranean by ditching zionist giant energy corporations from there. Do you think they want to see this happen?

I can remind you 100s of other things like that. So, Greece and Turkey "must" remain hostile to each other `till the end of the world. This is their raison d`etre and this is for the benefit of world`s elites. These world elites never allows a single powerhouse to control east-med. They benefit from conflicts in there.

[Hayalet]

This is something against the fundamental basics of Greece. Greece have to be or at least act like an enemy of Turkey and this is a must for them.
I disagree. Now, if we were talking about Armenians, then yes, antagonism towards Turks seems integral to their overall relevance in the world. Greeks, on the other hand, have many paths they can take in front of them.

And while arms dealers certainly make profit of the hostilities between two countries (Why wouldn't they?), I don't think they are the ones who created the situation.

[Onur]

I disagree. Now, if we were talking about Armenians, then yes, antagonism towards Turks seems integral to their overall relevance in the world. Greeks, on the other hand, have many paths they can take in front of them.
You are being naive.

The situation in Greece is not much different than Armenia. The only difference is Armenia is being orchestrated by Russia while the events in Greece is being orchestrated by the western powers.

Any peace attempt between Turkey and Greece would be violated and destroyed by both external and internal factions in both countries for the reasons i explained in my previous posts. Both Greek church and state is vehemently anti-Turkish and this cannot be changed easily.

A peace between Greece and Turkey is not possible without some kind of revolution in Greece, both for political and for the mindset of Greek people.


Btw, i am not talking about regular people otherwise ordinary Greek and Turkish people wouldn't have any problem for getting along. I myself wouldnt have any problem with an ordinary Greek. We can enjoy drinking raki together with mezes, dolmas, baklavas, Turkish coffee and a friendly hug to each other in the end but this would mean nothing. I am talking about the elites and a peace between Turkey and Greece is totally against their benefits.

[Romanion]

A peace between Greece and Turkey is not possible without some kind of revolution in Greece, both for political and for the mindset of Greek people.

.

Peace would mean Turkey stop violating Greece soverignty, which Ankara won't do.

[Romanion]

I disagree. Now, if we were talking about Armenians, then yes, antagonism towards Turks seems integral to their overall relevance in the world. Greeks, on the other hand, have many paths they can take in front of them.

And while arms dealers certainly make profit of the hostilities between two countries (Why wouldn't they?), I don't think they are the ones who created the situation.

Turks genocided Armenian, stole their land, and now are blockaiding their country. I think its the Turks that need to smarten up.

[MM81]

Greek expenditure compared to revenue, is close to what the UK is like. With Greek expenditure lower on EU Average.

Think you should default. Quick way to bomb that public debt to GDP ratio. Bin the Euro and focus on somehow raising revenue without hurting.

To me it just looks like a slow inevitably sinking ship.
Some economists think that the Eurozone should divide in two separate areas: a german-influenced macroregion, including Austria and the BeNeLux, and a southern one (I think with France included, but I'm not sure about it). The two areas would communicate and they'd be the more integrated they could be, but anyways distinct and autonomous. This should express the features of the two economic macroareas of the Eurozone at their best. Greece should obviously fall in the case B - the "mediterranean" euro - but its dramatic situation could lead to the reintroduction of dracma.
If I were a greek, I'd strongly support this option.

[SilverKnight]

1. Get rid of the EU.
2. The bankers and the corrupt politicians.
3. Cut military and non-sense spending.
4. Bring in strong foreign investment and assure them good results.

[Great Dane]

No. Greece would become Turkish and Muslim. Or Kurdish and Muslim. It makes as much sense as making Mexico the 51st state to solve the illegal alien problem.

[Queen B]

There is just no way for Greece and Turkey to join in a federation. But I think it's in Greece's interests to improve relations with Turkey, if for nothing else, so that it could cut military spending. Then again, hard times like these are known to bolster the strength of radical nationalists.
No big power wants that.
To whom they will sell military equipement?
What if Greece and Turkey control energy lines from Asia to Europe?

Do you forget that is THEIR obligation to keep the allies in Nato in good terms, but they do NOTHING for it?


Peace would mean Turkey stop violating Greece soverignty, which Ankara won't do.

This,too.

[Loki]

I say one more time;
This is something against the fundamental basics of Greece. Greece have to be or at least act like an enemy of Turkey and this is a must for them.

Also a corporation between Greece and Turkey is a bad thing for the German, French and US warmachine too. Greece is some kind of junkyard for them, where they can sell their 2nd hand military equipment for billions of dollars. They also do the same to Turkey too. Greece buys 20 billion dollars worth of military equipment from them every year, they buy even in this bad situation of economical crisis.

If the tension between Greece and Turkey reduces, then who will buy the 20 billion dollars worth of junk? And a friendly Turkey and Greece might cooperate for utilizing the energy sources in mediterranean by ditching zionist giant energy corporations from there. Do you think they want to see this happen?

I can remind you 100s of other things like that. So, Greece and Turkey "must" remain hostile to each other `till the end of the world. This is their raison d`etre and this is for the benefit of world`s elites. These world elites never allows a single powerhouse to control east-med. They benefit from conflicts in there.

A Greek-Turkish pact of cooperation and goodwill is the only way out of this situation. It is also time-limited and both powers will have to act now and seize this opportunity.

[Romanion]

A Greek-Turkish pact of cooperation and goodwill is the only way out of this situation. It is also time-limited and both powers will have to act now and seize this opportunity.

Turkey didn't make Greece go into bankrupsy, so tell me, how will it fix the problem?

[Petros Houhoulis]

Will never happen as we are not located along the Atlantic. :D But yes: we are now spending money on Greece and other "garlic countries" (as we call them here) and that is also going at the expense our dike maintenance. An inquiry held a couple of years ago showed that 26 percent of all dikes had structural issues because of a lack of maintenance. This is mainly along the rivers though.

Well, now you have the opportunity to hire Greeks for pennies to do the dirty work, and kick out the Moroccans who used to do these jobs for you.

The only problem is that, you won't do even that. Effectively, you are not even willing to force us to "wash the dishes".

How is that? Well, while Greece is tumbling under recession, more and more people are losing their jobs, more and more people are unable to meet their obligations. As a result less taxes are collected, and the state has to raise taxes to compensate for its' losses. As a result, you are unable even to force us to "hand you over our coat".

As the taxes go up, the profit margins go down, resulting to fewer and fewer willing to invest, even in the tourism section. Your investors are unwilling even to buy our islands and beaches. The Qataris are more interested than any European investor.

You see, it is impossible for us to repay our debt while you demand "100 Euros per island and all of the Greeks (and their taxes) out of your way".

Those "liberals" of sorts are the ones who have ruined Europe and the Western civilization as a whole. They moved their money to dirt cheap slave labor in the other side of the world, and as a result:

A) The Euro-American-Japanese lost their jobs.
B) The non-Euro-American-Japanese discovered that we have a lot of money and rushed in Europe/U.S.A./Canada/Japan because they believe that it would be easier to get rich here than in their dirt-poor countries.

The irony is that this so called "liberalism" has created hundreds of millions of slaves who shall inevitably hate us with their guts because we shall be unable to repay the skyrocketing debts (both private and state debts!) that incur in the process.

If you keep desiring to get "islands for 100 Euros" you shall ruin Europe and ultimately yourselves. Remember that Germany does not want to kick Greece out of the Euro not because it likes Greece, but because if several countries start fleeing the Euro, Germany shall end up with a hard currency which shall be climbing constantly and then Switzerland shall finally stop accusing Germany of stealing Swiss jobs due to an overvalued Swiss Franc.

Therefore, although I cannot possibly accept the idea that Greece should not repay its' debts, you should also accept that Greece cannot repay its' debts if you won't let it do so.

If you were wise enough, you would accept the idea that the E.U. should back Greeces' claim for an exclusive economic zone that shall cover a chunk of the natural gas of the region (Cyprus is already drilling nearby) which shall inevitably end up in your coffers. If you let that slip or if you let Turkey get it (either alone or in a collaboration inside a fictional Greco-Turkish state, which could easily tell all of Europe to fuck off and refuse the repayment of the debt - but it shall never happen because we are NOT stupid) you shall get much fewer resources, and less money in your coffers.

The real question is whether some Englishmen here are conspiring against Europe (since the Napoleonic era) and take actions which shall ultimately hurt your pocket and ultimately crumble their own Little Albion (which is only a notch above south Europe in every respect) despite the fact that the United kingdom has not lent Greece a single penny...

Just note their answers: They cling to the marbles because "they are safer in the British museum", not because they have a right to have them.

[Petros Houhoulis]

It could be a lot tougher now. I think the EU is wrong there since there is no reason to change the conditions. They should be harsh when Greece tries to leave - not yet.

The E.U. is explaining to Mr. Tsipras right now that the pact won't change. Mr. Hollande refused to talk with Mr. Tsipras, for starters...

[cossackpride]

The Solution to Greece's problem

1. Fake Civil War
2. Plea to International Organizations
3. ?!?
4. 5 million people emmigrate through "refugee claim" to America, Australia and Canada.
5. ?!?
6. PROFIT!


Predictable and we know this is going to happen. Greeks overpopulated their crappy country and will be demanding that we take them.

Canadians don't need Mediterranean people (do Greeks even know what snow is?)

[Petros Houhoulis]

I hope that Greece will be so wise not to do it because next time she might end up without trading partners. I read somewhere that this year alone the number of German tourists travelling to Greece has collapsed. I need to look up the article (http://www.telegraaf.nl/reiskrant/weekjeweg/12001659/__Toeristen_uitgekeken_op_Griekenland__.html). The situation (http://www.z24.nl/economie/artikel_346647.z24/Duitse_toeristen_mijden_Griekenland.html), for Greece, is downright depressing.

You are correct on this one.

[Petros Houhoulis]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/Greece_linguistic_minorities.png

Areas where Greeks are minorities.

Actually, this is mostly a map where minorities used to live. With the exception of Thrace, the rest have been either expelled or assimilated - and many of them didn't exist in the first place.

In any case, Greece has a democracy, nobody is disputing it, and you can squeak all you like...

...~40 parties showed up in the latest elections. None of them represented a specific minority (although various internationalists/anti-capitalists/anti-nationalists showed up)

Parties like Vinozhito ( www.florina.org ) which "exist" and "represent minorities" refused to participate in those elections. It was meaningless anyway... We all know what is their real purpose... a much more personal one...

[Petros Houhoulis]

You have only been there since 1830 thanks to the British and French and we owe you nothing at all. The Ottomans were at Vienna in 1683. Thank you Austria, Poland and the German States.

The Greek rebels have been fighting the Ottomans the time when the Ottomans were fighting the Catholics when the Catholics were fighting against you... So I guess that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is applicable here.

The Austrian, Polish and Germans were Catholics and supported the Pope when the West conquered Constantinople at 1204 during the 4th Crusade, and as a result opened the gates of Europe to a future Ottoman conquest.

If they were wiser, they would not have to face the Ottomans in Vienna, and the East Roman Empire did never threaten Vienna. Quite the opposite, it civilized the lot of you...

[Petros Houhoulis]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Slavic_tribes_in_the_Balkans.png

Most of modern Greece was mainly populated by Slavs more than thousand years ago.

This map shows the borders of the East Roman empire, not the actual ethnic composition of the area.

[Petros Houhoulis]

If anything.. the Austrians have guarded Europe's borders for ages. So.. we owe our gratitude to Austria. Not to Greece. There was no Greece until 1830.

The Greeks have been here long before 1830. They were the most loyal adherents of the Roman empire long before you existed, and the Roman empire stopped the Muslims at least three times in the gates of Constantinople:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Constantinople#Persian_and_Arab_Sieges_of _Constantinople


The First Siege of Constantinople by Avars, Slavs and Sassanid Persians in 626.
The First Arab Siege in 674-678
The Second Arab Siege in 717-718


If any of them had succeeded, you wouldn't even be Dutch right now, and you would certainly be Muslims - however reformed or protesting. There was NOTHING in Europe to stop them beyond us. Only Martel stopped them only once in another front. If he had failed maybe again all of us would be Muslims...

Greece did not exist until 1830, but it didn't spring out of nothing. We didn't become Christians at 1830, neither did we rebel because Britain or France told us so. We had frequent rebellions and massacres against us:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysius_the_Philosopher


Dionysius the Philosopher (Greek: Διονύσιος ο Φιλόσοφος, ca. 1560–1611) was a Greek monk who led two farmer revolts against the Ottoman Turks.

[Petros Houhoulis]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Macedonians_on_a_french_map.jpg

According to that we own much of Eastern Thrace too, perhaps even Constantinople. There were population exchanges you know - plenty of Greeks are descendants of people who lived in modern day Turkey and plenty of Turks are descendants of people who lived in modern day Greece:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey


The "Convention Concerning the Exchange of Greek and Turkish Populations" was signed at Lausanne, Switzerland, on the 30th January 1923, by the governments of Greece and Turkey. It involved approximately 2 million people (around 1.5 million Anatolian Greeks and 500,000 Muslims in Greece), most of whom were forcibly made refugees and de jure denaturalized from their homelands.

The same applied between Greece and Bulgaria:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria%E2%80%93Greece_relations#Diasporas


Historically, there have been sizable Greek and Bulgarian communities in the territories which form present day Bulgaria and Greece respectively. These communities today are mostly non-existent due to the population exchanges between Greece and Bulgaria which were directed under the Treaty of Neuilly in 1919.[citation needed]

According to the 2001 census, there were 35,104 Bulgarian citizens in Greece,[3] constituting 4,7% of all foreigners in Greece. However, that number has risen since then, as in 2003-2004, Bulgarians accounted for 9,8% of residence permit holders in Greece, out of which 473 were students and 2,059 were married to EU nationals.[4] In the academic year 2002-2003, there were 2,873 non-ethnic Greek citizens of Bulgaria in Greek state schools.[4] There are numerous publications in Greece for the Bulgarian community, including the bilingual newspaper България днес/Βουλγαρία σήμερα (Bulgaria today).

According to the 2001 census, there were 3,408 Greeks in Bulgaria.[5] This figure most likely includes, former political refugees, remnants of the population exchanges, students, and businessmen and their families. In addition, there were 4,108 Sarakatsani[6]

If we try to reverse the population exchanges, we shall end up in a much worse situation than before. Get used to it.

[Queen B]

Predictable and we know this is going to happen. Greeks overpopulated their crappy country and will be demanding that we take them.

Our country is beautiful

Canadians don't need Mediterranean people (do Greeks even know what snow is?)
Actually, we do, even though we don't have as much snow as other countries.
Do you know what sun is ? :lol:

[Petros Houhoulis]

Well.. you would still have to pay.
You have the location.. which you are not using. And the only way in which you can use it is by getting yourself deeper in debt to us while we have to push ourside our own economy, our own dikes, our own elderly, our own education system just so we can "help" you at our expense and we will get nothing in return from it.

We are talking about investments here, not loans. Making investments, you are supposed to get your money back - plus, you leave us money to repay our debts. If we manage to find investments, we can reduce the tax rates, which would bring more investments and make your repayment much more certain.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Or because they have been bred out by the Greeks. You know.. that's what happens to minorities. They happen to be.. minorities.


They same the same about France.. but we all know how much France respects it's minorities.

Well, the situation was like that: Every minority (Muslim and no Muslim) was being butchered by the Ottomans, then all of the minorities begun to rebel, create their own states and the most of them started butchering whatever Ottoman person they could find, and then each other. Gradually we begun getting civilized, but there are some very recent exceptions: The Yugoslav butchers, the Turks butchering their Kurds and so on...

Greece became homogeneous because of population exchanges, which means that we lost areas which were inhabited by Greeks for millenia, but we also gained territories that we had lost somewhere in that midst.

We have a few ragtags here and there, but if they want rights, they can gain them in a Democratic manner, not by forcing us (and ultimately you) to pay for minority schools in areas where there is no minority interested to learn a minority language.

If they ever gain a municipality, they can spend their local tax money to open such schools. Actually they have gained a single village 5 km from the border so far... But they shall lose it: They were voted in power with PASOK... and that party is falling apart...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Yes it does concern us because we loaned you money and to call your debts odious is a falsehood at best and looking for pathetic excuses for your country to weasel itself out of it's voluntary and legal commitments at worst.

I am not calling our debts to you odious, and I do not deny that we should repay our debts to you. I assumed that this was clear.

[Petros Houhoulis]

I don't believe that the Slavic part is propaganda as I personally know some Northern Greeks and they tell me that there are slavic villages in Northern Greece.

Five or ten, to be more precise.

Due to urbanization their inhabitants are mostly elderly people, and their children are already assimilated in some nearby town or a far away city some ages now.

[Petros Houhoulis]

It seems that Greece has a curious mix of economic problems, and minority/national issues;

http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/Minorities_of_Greece.html

reminds of a country that once existed in the region;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Breakup_of_Yugoslavia-TRY2.gif/300px-Breakup_of_Yugoslavia-TRY2.gif

Greece's problem are not the 50.000~100.000 minority members, but the >1 million illegal immigrants.

Meanwhile, are your Albanian minority still shooting at you?

...They are certainly overbreeding you. With 25% of the population and upward trends, there shall "keep raining" for a long period of time, until you get washed out:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110882/plotsummary

We had the coastline of Asia Minor for ages. Democracy and science were born there, even the Glagolitic alphabet has its' actual origins there. Yet we had to abandon them.

You do not only keep the Albanians in your country, but also dream of "liberating Aegean Macedonia" from Greece. In the end, you shall lose even what you still have. You should apply a population exchange before it is too late...

[Petros Houhoulis]

There is just no way for Greece and Turkey to join in a federation. But I think it's in Greece's interests to improve relations with Turkey, if for nothing else, so that it could cut military spending. Then again, hard times like these are known to bolster the strength of radical nationalists.

How about you start respecting international laws and decisions of the United nations' security council for a start?

We had Papandreou bending himself backwards, even the "earthquake diplomacy". Did Turkey become more of a law abiding country? Not really.

You used to "export" your internal problems by offensive actions. Nevertheless, the more Davutoglu gets into "Turkey with no problems with any neighbor", the more problems you keep accumulating. Now you have added Israel too...

"The only friend of a Turk is a Turk" dear...

[Petros Houhoulis]

I say one more time;
This is something against the fundamental basics of Greece. Greece have to be or at least act like an enemy of Turkey and this is a must for them.

Also a corporation between Greece and Turkey is a bad thing for the German, French and US warmachine too. Greece is some kind of junkyard for them, where they can sell their 2nd hand military equipment for billions of dollars. They also do the same to Turkey too. Greece buys 20 billion dollars worth of military equipment from them every year, they buy even in this bad situation of economical crisis.

If the tension between Greece and Turkey reduces, then who will buy the 20 billion dollars worth of junk? And a friendly Turkey and Greece might cooperate for utilizing the energy sources in mediterranean by ditching zionist giant energy corporations from there. Do you think they want to see this happen?

I can remind you 100s of other things like that. So, Greece and Turkey "must" remain hostile to each other `till the end of the world. This is their raison d`etre and this is for the benefit of world`s elites. These world elites never allows a single powerhouse to control east-med. They benefit from conflicts in there.

Onur, you cannot possibly ditch the Isrealis from their own continental shelf. They have the right to drill offshore, you know. So does the republic of Cyprus.

Otherwise, no giant Israeli energy corporation exists in Greece - I don't know about Turkey, and in any case, why "ditch" them and not build your own giant energy corporation nearby? There is enough space for gazillions of solar collectors...

In any case, I do not see even the Arabs willing to come back to the Ottoman empire. Your only lapdogs are some Anti-Slavic Slavs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQZi306XOMc

Go figure!

[ikki]

Dump the eu, dump the euro, dump the debts. Then watch the idiot eurocrats cry as the banks come collecting the money from them. Every eu country will see their crediworthiness drop a few points.. then maybe the people have the guts to throw out the idiots and replace them with people that are willing to dump the eu, euro and debts aswell.

[Petros Houhoulis]

You are being naive.

The situation in Greece is not much different than Armenia. The only difference is Armenia is being orchestrated by Russia while the events in Greece is being orchestrated by the western powers.

Any peace attempt between Turkey and Greece would be violated and destroyed by both external and internal factions in both countries for the reasons i explained in my previous posts. Both Greek church and state is vehemently anti-Turkish and this cannot be changed easily.

As if Turkey is a paradise:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus#Atrocities_against_Turk ish_Cypriots


The Turkish policy of forcing a third of the island's Greek population from their homes in the occupied North, preventing their return and settling Turks from the mainland there is considered an example of ethnic cleansing.[61][62][63][64][65][66][67][68][69][70][71][72][73][74]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taksim_Square_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A7elievler_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara%C5%9F_Massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sivas_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba%C5%9Fba%C4%9Flar_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish%E2%80%93Turkish_conflict#Casualties


CasualtiesAccording to official figures released by the Turkish military for the 1984–2008 period, the conflict has resulted in the capture of 14,000 PKK members, and the death of 32,000 PKK members, 6,482 soldiers, and 5,560 civilians,[24] among which 157 teachers.[173] From August 1984 to June 2007, the Turkish government put the total casualties at 37,979. The Turkish military was said to be responsible for the deaths of 26,128 PKK fighters and the PKK was said to be responsible for the other 11,851 people deaths. A total of 13,327 soldiers and 7,620 civilians are said to have been wounded and an additional 20,000 civilians killed by unknown assailants.[22] Only 2,500 people were said to have been killed between 1984 and 1991, while over 17,500 were killed between 1991 and 1995.[70] The number of murders committed by Village Guards from 1985–1996 is put at 296 by official estimates.[174] The Turkish government claims that the total casualties from 2003 to 2009 is around 2,300, which includes 172 civilians, 556 security forces and 1380 rebels.[175] In June 2010 new casualty figures were released in which the Turkish government claimed a total of 6,653 security forces including 4,015 soldiers, 217 police officers and 1,335 village guards had been killed. They claimed to have killed 29,704 PKK fighters as of 2009. According to these figures the amounth of casualties since the second insurgency in 2004 started is 2,462.[21]

According to human rights organisations since the beginning of the uprising 4,000 villages have been destroyed,[28] in which between 380,000 and 1,000,000 Kurdish villagers have been forcibly evacuated from their homes.[176] Some 5,000 Turks and 35,000 Kurds,[28] including 18,000 civilians[26] have been killed, 17,000 Kurds have disappeared and 119,000 Kurds have been imprisoned by Turkish authorities.[27][28] According to the Humanitarian Law Project, 2,400 Kurdish villages were destroyed and 18,000 Kurds were executed, by the Turkish government.[176] Other estimates have put the number of destroyed Kurdish villages at over 4,000.[43] In total up to 3,000,000 people (mainly Kurds) have been displaced by the conflict,[30] an estimated 1,000,000 of which are still internally dispalced as of 2009.[177]

According to pro-PKK sources, the real casualties from August 1984 to August 1994, were that 11,750 Turkish security, 6,443 PKK fighters and 3,330 civilians had been killed.[23] Sebahat Tuncel, an elected MP from the BDP put the PKK's casualties at 18,000 as of July 2011.[25]

According to the International Crisis Group, the conflict's confirmed casualties for the last 3 years of the conflict were as following:[178]

Year Security Forces Insurgents Civilians Total:
2008 143 657 49 849
2009 44 78 67 189
2010 80–150 60–130 20 160 – 300
Total: 267 – 337 795 – 865 136 1198–1338

The conflict's casualties between 1984 and March 2009 according to the General Staff of the Republic of Turkey, Turkish Gendarmerie, General Directorate of Security and since then until June 2010 according to Milliyet's analysis of the data of the General Staff of the Republic of Turkey and Turkish Gendarmerie were as following:[21]

Year Security Forces Civilians Insurgents Total
1984 26 43 28 97
1985 58 141 201 4,000
1986 51 133 74 258
1987 71 237 95 403
1988 54 109 123 286
1989 153 178 179 510
1990 161 204 368 733
1991 244 233 376 853
1992 629 832 1,129 2,590
1993 715 1,479 3,050 5,244
1994 1,145 992 2,510 4,647
1995 772 313 4,163 5,248
1996 608 170 3,789 4,567
1997 518 158 7,558 8,234
1998 383 85 2,556 3,024
1999 236 83 1,458 1,787
2000 29 17 319 365
2001 20 8 104 132
2002 7 7 19 33
2003 31 63 87 181
2004 75 28 122 225
2005 105 30 188 323
2006 111 38 132 281
2007 146 37 315 498
2008 171 51 696 918
2009 62 18 65 145
2010 72 - - -
Total: 6,653 5,687 29,704





A peace between Greece and Turkey is not possible without some kind of revolution in Greece, both for political and for the mindset of Greek people.


Nobody shall rebel for your sake in Greece. We are peaceful enough as we are, we don't want to end up like Turkey killing and being killed every single day, thank you.


Btw, i am not talking about regular people otherwise ordinary Greek and Turkish people wouldn't have any problem for getting along. I myself wouldnt have any problem with an ordinary Greek. We can enjoy drinking raki together with mezes, dolmas, baklavas, Turkish coffee and a friendly hug to each other in the end but this would mean nothing. I am talking about the elites and a peace between Turkey and Greece is totally against their benefits.

Learn to live peacefully with your own minorities first, either they are Kurds, Alevis or Christian Arabs, and we can talk about it afterwards.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Some economists think that the Eurozone should divide in two separate areas: a german-influenced macroregion, including Austria and the BeNeLux, and a southern one (I think with France included, but I'm not sure about it). The two areas would communicate and they'd be the more integrated they could be, but anyways distinct and autonomous. This should express the features of the two economic macroareas of the Eurozone at their best. Greece should obviously fall in the case B - the "mediterranean" euro - but its dramatic situation could lead to the reintroduction of dracma.
If I were a greek, I'd strongly support this option.

The Germans and the other Northerners would not like it, because their currency would become overvalued and their exports would collapse. Nevertheless, they can leave the Euro if they want, nobody is preventing them from doing so.

[Petros Houhoulis]

The Solution to Greece's problem

1. Fake Civil War
2. Plea to International Organizations
3. ?!?
4. 5 million people emmigrate through "refugee claim" to America, Australia and Canada.
5. ?!?
6. PROFIT!


Predictable and we know this is going to happen. Greeks overpopulated their crappy country and will be demanding that we take them.

Canadians don't need Mediterranean people (do Greeks even know what snow is?)

This is an excellent joke. We don't need refugee claims, we can travel and work in the whole of the E.U. legally. Still, we are trying to stick where we are. If our country is good for more than 1 million illegal immigrants, it should be more than good for ourselves too.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Dump the eu, dump the euro, dump the debts. Then watch the idiot eurocrats cry as the banks come collecting the money from them. Every eu country will see their crediworthiness drop a few points.. then maybe the people have the guts to throw out the idiots and replace them with people that are willing to dump the eu, euro and debts aswell.

It shall not work in the long run.

What we actually need is a pan-European Keynsianism project: Don't spend your money out of Europe. Keep your investments inside Europe.

The E.U. always needs restructuring. We have democracy and we should use it.

[Onur]

Petros H., i already ignored you but i keep seeing your messages here back to back. When i click on them to open, i see that you don't say anything at all but keep posting wikipedia links and quotes from it.

It`s obvious that you are persistent to say something but you always end up spamming wikipedia quotes and stupid youtube videos which eventually turns you to a forum troll. I am sorry, but you fail.

[Queen B]

Petros H., i already ignored you but i keep seeing your messages here back to back. When i click on them to open, i see that you don't say anything at all but keep posting wikipedia links and quotes from it.

It`s obvious that you are persistent to say something but you always end up spamming wikipedia quotes and stupid youtube videos which eventually turns you to a forum troll. I am sorry, but you fail.

Said someone that 1 out of 2 of his posts are the same old stupid BS about Greece and Greeks :lol:

[ikki]

The Master makes a few predictions http://www.halla-aho.com/scripta/kreikkalaisia_nakymia.html (finnish, go find a google translator)

[ikki]

It shall not work in the long run.

What we actually need is a pan-European Keynsianism project: Don't spend your money out of Europe. Keep your investments inside Europe.

The E.U. always needs restructuring. We have democracy and we should use it.

No kenesian for me. keynes would never have approved of the policies taken in his name. Expansions REQUIRE both wagefreezes and pricefreezes, without which expansion only leads to inflation without actual increased productivity.

Ofcourse, such freezes have only ever been carried out once. 20s poland, and this was the only time keynes-like policies succeeded.

[cossackpride]

It's a boom and bust cycle, whppie. What a terrible bust that we're all eating beer and pizza!

What comes down must go up is the expression. Once a couple more bubbles pop, people will take their money under their mattress and buy things up for dimes on the dollar - fixing the economy.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Petros H., i already ignored you but i keep seeing your messages here back to back. When i click on them to open, i see that you don't say anything at all but keep posting wikipedia links and quotes from it.

It`s obvious that you are persistent to say something but you always end up spamming wikipedia quotes and stupid youtube videos which eventually turns you to a forum troll. I am sorry, but you fail.

As opposed to you posting ridiculous theories right out of your arse, barely with any reference at all!

[Petros Houhoulis]

No kenesian for me. keynes would never have approved of the policies taken in his name. Expansions REQUIRE both wagefreezes and pricefreezes, without which expansion only leads to inflation without actual increased productivity.

Ofcourse, such freezes have only ever been carried out once. 20s poland, and this was the only time keynes-like policies succeeded.

Right now the wages are falling in Greece and the prices are rising... Europe shall be no different soon. We are exporting more money that we import, as an E.U., and if you get detached, you shall have partially that problem too. In the long term your currency shall become too hard.

[Crn Volk]

Petros H., i already ignored you but i keep seeing your messages here back to back. When i click on them to open, i see that you don't say anything at all but keep posting wikipedia links and quotes from it.

It`s obvious that you are persistent to say something but you always end up spamming wikipedia quotes and stupid youtube videos which eventually turns you to a forum troll. I am sorry, but you fail.

I have noticed the same thing about Petros

[Crn Volk]

Actually, this is mostly a map where minorities used to live. With the exception of Thrace, the rest have been either expelled or assimilated - and many of them didn't exist in the first place.

In any case, Greece has a democracy, nobody is disputing it, and you can squeak all you like...

...~40 parties showed up in the latest elections. None of them represented a specific minority (although various internationalists/anti-capitalists/anti-nationalists showed up)

Parties like Vinozhito ( www.florina.org ) which "exist" and "represent minorities" refused to participate in those elections. It was meaningless anyway... We all know what is their real purpose... a much more personal one...


There's also the Educational and Cultural Movement of Voden;

http://www.edessavoden.gr/

[Crn Volk]

This map shows the borders of the East Roman empire, not the actual ethnic composition of the area.

Its shows the settlement of Slavic tribes all the way to Athens...

[Loki]

Turkey didn't make Greece go into bankrupsy, so tell me, how will it fix the problem?

It will help Greece to become strong again; back on its feet without the EU. It will also eliminate any possible military threat, since no-one is going to mess with their new-found big buddy across the Bosphorus.

It will also allow Greece to relax on its military spending.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Hear me out ... this may sound improbable, but could be the only workable solution.

How about ... a mighty domain on both sides of the Bosphorus .. both Greece and Turkey are no longer looking to the European Union for answers. They should go in allegiance together, and it would give the middle finger to the EU!! Imagine that ... a mighty empire that could rival that of the Byzantine era!!

Thoughts?


Turkey-Greece alliance is not going to happen, ever. Way too much historical animosity for such alliance to even happen in the first place. Besides the funny alliance idea I already proposed a possible Balkan federation (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=847478&postcount=83)of sorts in another thread. A federation or republic, whatever works best. Basically, Greece is part of the Balkans, and the Balkans needs Greece just as much as we need Greece. I believe Greece wouldn't have fallen so far if Greece had a strong Balkan economy to lean on. With the Balkans literally in disarray which is like having 3/4 of Germany in disarray with a messed up economy just made Greece much more vulnerable to crises like the one they're going through right now.

A Balkan federation/republic/whatever is much more probable than a Turkey-Greece alliance even though a Balkan federation of sorts is already very improbable... just tells how improbable a Turkey-Greece alliance is. ;)

[Loki]

A Balkan federation/republic/whatever is much more probable than a Turkey-Greece alliance

I disagree, but you are right in that people are not ready for it. It's a great pity that petty differences can stand in the way of a great outcome. But that's life. Sometimes pride is worth more than life and future generations, I guess.

[poiuytrewq0987]

I disagree, but you are right in that people are not ready for it. It's a great pity that petty differences can stand in the way of a great outcome. But that's life. Sometimes pride is worth more than life and future generations, I guess.

Well, Greece went through a lot to get their independence from the Ottomans. To join in an alliance with Turkey would not benefit Greece in any way since the population ratio is 7 to 1 in Turkey's favor. The ratio wasn't so large back then. Turkey was about 20 million and Greece 7 million in 1920-ish or a 2 to 1 population ratio.

If you're purely talking about a military alliance then I suppose it could work but again Turkey would dominate in such alliance because of the population ratio meaning Greek contribution to the alliance would be meager. Turkey and Greece pretty much have the same military hardware. Both countries use F16s, and American small arms. The only advantage Greece has is the Leopards and Abrams tanks compared to Turkey who still use 1960s tanks.

Additionally, I really don't see how a lone military bloc constituting only of Greece and Turkey would benefit them. It would pit them against the NATO, Russia and China. It's much more than they can handle.

A Balkan federation is much more sound because of similarity in religion and history (being occupied by the Ottomans and all that jazz). The Greeks actually tried something like it before in the late 1700s. The Constantinople Patriarch tried to Hellenize the Bulgarians and Serbs but they ended up breaking away from the Patriarch and formed the Exarchate instead. The Patriarch even went so far and called the Exarchate schismatic.

If the reverse happened and the Balkans got Hellenized then the Orthodox followers would have basically formed one big Greece that included Bulgarian and Serbian territories in addition of Greece. That would have formed a much more viable state than the current Balkan statelets...

[Loki]

A Balkan federation is much more sound because of similarity in religion and history (being occupied by the Ottomans and all that jazz). The Greeks actually tried something like it before in the late 1700s. The Constantinople Patriarch tried to Hellenize the Bulgarians and Serbs but they ended up breaking away from the Patriarch and formed the Exarchate instead. The Patriarch even went so far and called the Exarchate schismatic.

If the reverse happened and the Balkans got Hellenized then the Orthodox followers would have basically formed one big Greece that included Bulgarian and Serbian territories in addition of Greece. That would have formed a much more viable state than the current Balkan statelets...

The only countries who would benefit from such a "Balkan federation" would be Serbia and Greece. All the others would lose out on their current stability and independence.

[poiuytrewq0987]

The only countries who would benefit from such a "Balkan federation" would be Serbia and Greece. All the others would lose out om their current stability and independence.

There will be countries who would benefit from the federation more than some others would benefit from it. We will have to make compromises for the greater good. One thing that's certain and the borders of constituent states cannot change while in the federation. The federation is exactly what the region needs; something that would bring together all the peoples in the region. It would be essentially Orthodox and constituted of countries once occupied by the Ottoman Empire obviously but from there we can work to minimize fragmentation that has deeply divided the Balkans.

For example we can consolidate Balkan languages. There's really no huge differences between Balkan Slavic languages as Serbian, Macedonian and Bulgarian are in essence only transitional from West to East and vice versa. I think we can consolidate Balkan Slavic languages into just Balkan Slavic, Romanian and Moldovian would be called Balkan Latin and Greek... Balkan Greek? :P They are just ideas to better integrate Balkan peoples under such federation. I mean obviously Macedonia or Bosnia alone will not and will never evolve into a regional or world power but in a federation at least we can rely on others to do things that won't be detrimental to our interests than on foreign powers not from the Balkans.

[Romanion]

It will help Greece to become strong again; back on its feet without the EU. It will also eliminate any possible military threat, since no-one is going to mess with their new-found big buddy across the Bosphorus.

It will also allow Greece to relax on its military spending.

um, Greece has a large military spending because of Turkey who undermines Greek sovereignty on a weekly basis.

[Romanion]

There will be countries who would benefit from the federation more than some others would benefit from it. We will have to make compromises for the greater good. One thing that's certain and the borders of constituent states cannot change while in the federation. The federation is exactly what the region needs; something that would bring together all the peoples in the region. It would be essentially Orthodox and constituted of countries once occupied by the Ottoman Empire obviously but from there we can work to minimize fragmentation that has deeply divided the Balkans.

For example we can consolidate Balkan languages. There's really no huge differences between Balkan Slavic languages as Serbian, Macedonian and Bulgarian are in essence only transitional from West to East and vice versa. I think we can consolidate Balkan Slavic languages into just Balkan Slavic, Romanian and Moldovian would be called Balkan Latin and Greek... Balkan Greek? :P They are just ideas to better integrate Balkan peoples under such federation. I mean obviously Macedonia or Bosnia alone will not and will never evolve into a regional or world power but in a federation at least we can rely on others to do things that won't be detrimental to our interests than on foreign powers not from the Balkans.

Wow, between this post and http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48805 post it seems like you have had a change of heart in some way.

[Loki]

um, Greece has a large military spending because of Turkey who undermines Greek sovereignty on a weekly basis.

But if Greece and Turkey ends that stupid stalemate, none of that would be necessary. I mean seriously, there is not going to be a full-scale modern war between Greece and Turkey.

[Queen B]

But if Greece and Turkey ends that stupid stalemate, none of that would be necessary. I mean seriously, there is not going to be a full-scale modern war between Greece and Turkey.

As long as Turkey does the following.....

* Imia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imia/Kardak)
* Kostas Iliakis (see incident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek%E2%80%93Turkish_relations))
* Turkish Violations (http://www.defencegreece.com/index.php/2011/10/turkish-frigate-passing-off-sounion/)

[Loki]

As long as Turkey does the following.....

* Imia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imia/Kardak)
* Kostas Iliakis (see incident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek%E2%80%93Turkish_relations))
* Turkish Violations (http://www.defencegreece.com/index.php/2011/10/turkish-frigate-passing-off-sounion/)

How about ... the two countries come to the table and discuss those matters. Those incidents you mentioned are minor compared to the nightmare Greece is now facing ... and it could have a *good* outcome if Greece and Turkey now bury the centuries' long hatchet. Think about it! Germany won't be happy. :p

[Hayalet]

* Turkish Violations (http://www.defencegreece.com/index.php/2011/10/turkish-frigate-passing-off-sounion/)
:rolleyes:

Here are the comments in that page on the nature of this so-called violation:


Paul:
C'mon Greece, defend yourself--every inaction by Greece only emboldens Turkey. You've got missiles--use them!! You should have blown a hole in this frigate and sent it limping back to Smyrna.

Achilleas:
Unfortunately the ship is in international waters and it cannot be fired on legally. Let them enter Greek national waters than we will see.

APPDS-Ltd:
They are not in International water. The contiguous of every country is 24nm. Somebody should lose their jiob for this they should have been interdicted long before they arrived in Sounion.

Achilleas:
I'm sorry but you are wrong. Greece has not announced 12 nautical miles YET, after it signed the law of the sea treaty in the 90's. As it is right now it is below 12nm and is still in international waters.

[Romanion]

How about ... the two countries come to the table and discuss those matters. Those incidents you mentioned are minor compared to the nightmare Greece is now facing ... and it could have a *good* outcome if Greece and Turkey now bury the centuries' long hatchet. Think about it! Germany won't be happy. :p

There is nothing to discuss, international law is law, just because Turkey doesn't like to see Greece expand its waters doesn't mean Greece deosn't have the right too.

[Queen B]

How about ... the two countries come to the table and discuss those matters. Those incidents you mentioned are minor compared to the nightmare Greece is now facing ... and it could have a *good* outcome if Greece and Turkey now bury the centuries' long hatchet. Think about it! Germany won't be happy. :p

Minor? The deaths of 4 Greeks, cause by an (supposed)-ally in Nato is minor?
No Loki, is not a minor incidents..Or tell this to the families that lost a member and to the orphans...

The supposed-ally has NO respect to NATO alliance, to our borders, to international laws in general.

They can't be trusted.

[Quorra]

It's a great idea. It's a shame that relationships are so complicated. It would start the breaking up of the EU into more reasonable unions.

[Queen B]

:rolleyes:

Here are the comments in that page on the nature of this so-called violation:

Do you know where Sounio is ? Give me a fucking break here.
Sounio is next to Athens, not in the space of 12 miles.

[Romanion]

But if Greece and Turkey ends that stupid stalemate, none of that would be necessary. I mean seriously, there is not going to be a full-scale modern war between Greece and Turkey.

Turkey is making every intention that they are looking for one. Recently Ankara authorized oil drilling in Greek EEZ regions. It's obviously a reaction to the Cypriot oil drillings because Turkey doesn't recongize Cyprus.

[Romanion]

Minor? The deaths of 4 Greeks, cause by an (supposed)-ally in Nato is minor?
No Loki, is not a minor incidents..Or tell this to the families that lost a member and to the orphans...

The supposed-ally has NO respect to NATO alliance, to our borders, to international laws in general.

They can't be trusted.

I wonder how England would take it if France shoots and kills a few British naval personelle in the English channel. In Loki's mind it's "pety differences".

[Queen B]

I wonder how England would take it if France shoots and kills a few British naval personelle in the English channel. In Loki's mind it's "pety differences".

I don't know about Loki's mind, but 4 deaths cause from a ''Nato'' ally (who holds a casus beli against a Nato ally !!!!!!!) is not insignificant.

Turkey can't be trusted.

[Loki]

Minor? The deaths of 4 Greeks, cause by an (supposed)-ally in Nato is minor?
No Loki, is not a minor incidents..Or tell this to the families that lost a member and to the orphans...

The supposed-ally has NO respect to NATO alliance, to our borders, to international laws in general.

They can't be trusted.

*sigh*

Alright, good luck with the EU. Germany & finances etc

[Hayalet]

Do you know where Sounio is ? Give me a fucking break here.
Sounio is next to Athens, not in the space of 12 miles.
I just quoted the comments from the page you posted. The news bulletin:


The frigate started its journey from the eastern Mediterranean, went off Rhodes, Milos, and arrived off Sounion, almost 15 miles away from the coast.

[Queen B]

*sigh*

Alright, good luck with the EU. Germany & finances etc

Thank you :cool:


I just quoted the comments from the page you posted. The news bulletin:

I couldn't care less about the comments. (althoug it means 15 miles of SOUNION coast, duhhhh)

I prefer to search the sources and saying myself, instead of reading comments.
And truth is , that Sounio is in Attica Peninsula, close to....athens, which is a fucking clear violation of our borders by our ''allies''

http://www.welt-atlas.de/datenbank/karten/karte-1-21.gif

[cossackpride]

Why does Greece need to take over Turkey? Why not the reverse? :thumb001:

[Queen B]

Why does Greece need to take over Turkey? Why not the reverse? :thumb001:
Greece has not such dreams.
55 million Turks and 15 million Kurds within our borders?
No, thanks :coffee:

[Hayalet]

I couldn't care less about the comments. (althoug it means 15 miles of SOUNION coast, duhhhh)

I prefer to search the sources and saying myself, instead of reading comments.
And truth is , that Sounio is in Attica Peninsula, close to....athens, which is a fucking clear violation of our borders by our ''allies''

http://www.welt-atlas.de/datenbank/karten/karte-1-21.gif
I am not really sure what you don't understand here. According to the source you posted (not just comments, but the actual news bulletin), the Turkish frigate was 15 miles off the Greek coast. And the Greek territorial waters currently ending at 6 miles, the frigate didn't violate anything.

[Bardamu]

Kick out foreigners, default on megabank loans, break county up into small farms, create a national socialist government that invests in economic prosperity, and suck it up.

[Queen B]

I am not really sure what you don't understand here. According to the source you posted (not just comments, but the actual news bulletin), the Turkish frigate was 15 miles off the Greek coast. And the Greek territorial waters currently ending at 6 miles, the frigate didn't violate
anything.
Kafireas, is not 15 miles away from land

[Onur]

A Balkan federation is much more sound because of similarity in religion and history (being occupied by the Ottomans and all that jazz).
After Hitler`s accession to power in Germany and the rising voices of reviving Roman empire in Italy, Ataturk proposed all Balkan states to sign an agreement to secure the borders of the states against any foreign intervention in 1934. It was signed by Greece, Turkey, Romania and Yugoslavia but Bulgaria didnt join at that time and i became annull after WW-2 started. You can read here;

"Balkan pact";
http://www.sosyalarastirmalar.com/cilt2/sayi6pdf/degerli_esra.pdf


There will be countries who would benefit from the federation more than some others would benefit from it. We will have to make compromises for the greater good. One thing that's certain and the borders of constituent states cannot change while in the federation. The federation is exactly what the region needs; something that would bring together all the peoples in the region. It would be essentially Orthodox and constituted of countries once occupied by the Ottoman Empire obviously but from there we can work to minimize fragmentation that has deeply divided the Balkans.
A federation is a bad idea and this is proven by the downfall of Yugo-slavia but i agree that without a cooperation, Balkans will always be a shithole. I don't believe any Balkan state can develop without that and thats includes Greece too. Without regional cooperation, the best thing for any Balkan state is to be some kind of EU colony and this is a bad idea too as it`s proven with the current situation of Greece.

But i don't believe that Turkey needs cooperation in Balkans as much as other Balkan states needs. We are OK as we are now and we will always be fine due to our geo-political position, our historical context and our historical relation with other Turkic states in central Asia.

So, i am telling this for the good of the Balkan states, otherwise Turkey having good relations or not with Balkans, it doesn't matter much for us. Any profit of Bulgaria, Greece, Macedonia can bring to Turkey is negligible for us and neither of Balkan states can be any threat to us, that includes Greece too. Greece can never match to us military wise. As you know, they tried to match us and they gone bust while trying. Turkey is not the same Turkey of 1912. Even if all Balkan states becomes hostile to us and form an alliance against us, it wouldn't be any major threat to us.

[Loki]

It is for Greece's benefit to seek warmer relations with Turkey now. It is the wise thing to do. I do not even want to dwell my thoughts on negative alternatives ... and trust me, they ALL seem negative from my vantage point (how irrelevant you may think it may be, doesn't matter) - except the possibility of Greco-Turkish cooperation. Greeks should drop this arrogance or prepare for the worst. IMO. :coffee:

[Onur]

It is for Greece's benefit to seek warmer relations with Turkey now. It is the wise thing to do. I do not even want to dwell my thoughts on negative alternatives ... and trust me, they ALL seem negative from my vantage point (how irrelevant you may think it may be, doesn't matter) - except the possibility of Greco-Turkish cooperation. Greeks should drop this arrogance or prepare for the worst. IMO. :coffee:
Don't be surprised because of their reaction Loki. I am not because i know what kind of education their state gives to them. Like i said here in this thread before, the official cause of the modern Greek state is pan-hellenism based on anti-turkism.

They are destined to be an EU colony because they cant stand on their own feet and you western Europeans have to care for them with your taxmoney as long as the system called European Union exists.

[Queen B]

It is for Greece's benefit to seek warmer relations with Turkey now. It is the wise thing to do. I do not even want to dwell my thoughts on negative alternatives ... and trust me, they ALL seem negative from my vantage point (how irrelevant you may think it may be, doesn't matter) - except the possibility of Greco-Turkish cooperation. Greeks should drop this arrogance or prepare for the worst. IMO. :coffee:

Its not about arrogance, but about trust. And Turkey can not be trusted, be sure about that.

A fucking ally in NATO holds a casus beli? Do you know what casus beli means? Reason for war. Yeah, to their ally.

And yes, those allies caused the death of 4 people.

You should know better that some people/countries, can't be trusted, especially when you already have proof that can't.

[Queen B]

Don't be surprised because of their reaction Loki. I am not because i know what kind of education their state gives to them. Like i said here in this thread before, the official cause of the modern Greek state is pan-hellenism based on anti-turkism.

They are destined to be an EU colony because they cant stand on their own feet and you western Europeans have to care for them with your taxmoney as long as the system called European Union exists.

Onur, who's talking about Anti-Turkism? You?

Half of your posts, if not all, are anti-Greek and about Greece. You are clearly obsessed, and you are the living proof of who have got what kind of education here.

Your posts are just a joke.

[Turkophagos]

http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/cretegeorge/Turkish-evolution.jpg

[Loki]

And yes, those allies caused the death of 4 people.


You go on about 4 people. 4 people are incomparable to the misery that Greece is now facing. How many Greeks have committed suicide this year?

As they say: penny-wise, pound-foolish.

[Queen B]

You go on about 4 people. 4 people are incomparable to the misery that Greece is now facing. How many Greeks have committed suicide this year?
As they say: penny-wise, pound-foolish.

You don't get it, Loki.

Its not (only) about the number of the dead which is not insignificant in anyway , considering the fact that we are fucking allies, its about that Turkey can't be trusted.

If you want a ''friend'' that already screwed you lots of times, I don't. I don't have such trust on them, neither that kind of goodwill.

Just like I wouldn't let a child-rapist around my kid, because I am in need of babysitter, the same way I wouldn't make (if it was my choice, I mean) Turkey an ally, because I am in need.

I prefer to get ''screwed'' because of my own mistakes, not because someone is taking advantage of me.

[Romanion]

Don't be surprised because of their reaction Loki. I am not because i know what kind of education their state gives to them. Like i said here in this thread before, the official cause of the modern Greek state is pan-hellenism based on anti-turkism.

They are destined to be an EU colony because they cant stand on their own feet and you western Europeans have to care for them with your taxmoney as long as the system called European Union exists.

Turkey is a US imperial arm, they say jump, Ankara says how high.

[Romanion]

You go on about 4 people. 4 people are incomparable to the misery that Greece is now facing. How many Greeks have committed suicide this year?

As they say: penny-wise, pound-foolish.


Greeks should drop this arrogance :

It sounds like you need to take your own advice.

[Romanion]

Attaturk promised the kurds of Anatolia their own country called Kurdistan if they helped kill off the Armenians and fight for them in 1922. After they did their deed, instead of following their word, Attaturk begane supressing them and attampting to assimulate them into Turkish society. They were labeled "mountain Turks" untill Ankara recongised them differently not to long ago. Turks are low life mongrels, no one should trust these people. The Kurds are now paying the price, I hope Kurdistan will one day become a reality.

[Loki]

You don't get it, Loki.


Well as I said, have it your (Greek) way then. I just thought to throw in a logical-sounding argument to reason for a possible positive outcome in this quagmire. Such a radical solution would have been unthinkable if Greece was not in such a dire situation.

Maybe I am just ignorant, in your views. I uphold my opinion, though, as I think it is valid and workable ... the only thing that would suffer is a bit of romantic-nationalistic egotism. But that's about it.

[Loki]

It sounds like you need to take your own advice.

I'm just a realist and look at the situation as an outsider. I have nothing to lose or gain from this conflict.

[Romanion]

I'm just a realist and look at the situation as an outsider. I have nothing to lose or gain from this conflict.


I'm not English. I'm an Afrikaner of Dutch and German etc origins. I have not forgotten what Turkey (via Ottomans) have done for my ancestors, without whom I would not have existed.

nite

So you are arrogant and a liar. That's nice to know.

[Loki]

So you are arrogant and a liar. That's nice to know.

You said that. I would disagree. You call me that because I dare to have an opinion different from yours. Nice debating skill.

[Onur]

You go on about 4 people. 4 people are incomparable to the misery that Greece is now facing. How many Greeks have committed suicide this year?

As they say: penny-wise, pound-foolish.
Loki, all the events Dandelion linked up and her blabber about the dead 4 people was caused by them again.

If they try to invade another island of us just 2 miles away from mainland Turkey and refuse to leave, we can kill 4 more of them again. They create a stupid scene like dumping their commandos on our ass, we kick their asses and they cry about the consequences afterwards.

And yes, casus belli holds for a reason. Aegean sea IS NOT a Greek lake. Greece will never be able to expand maritime borders to 12 miles (basically reaching mainland Turkey) as long as a country called Turkey exists.

You Greeks can try to expand anytime you like but don't cry for the consequences again when your ass gets kicked as usual.

[Loki]

So you are arrogant and a liar. That's nice to know.

I am STILL an outsider, despite the historical significance of Turkey. If anything, it caused me to look deeper into the situation, ignoring the usual ISLAM!!!111 etc propaganda that is employed to shout down any argument favoring Turkey.

I'm not that stupid but some ppl really do buy it.

[Romanion]

You said that. I would disagree. You call me that because I dare to have an opinion different from yours. Nice debating skill.

Your different opinion is based of uneducated assumptions. Cyprus is still illegally ocupied, Turkey has a cauli belli on international law and EEZ, yet you think things will get better if Greece capitulates to Turkish demands? Turkey has problems with all its neighbours at the moment, yet you think its Turkey that is somehow in the right, it makes me wonder about you.

Turkish-Greek relations would normalize if Turkey follows international law, therefore it is Turkey that needs to smarten up.

[Loki]

Your different opinion is based of uneducated assumptions. Cyprus is still illegally ocupied, Turkey has a cauli belli on international law and EEZ, yet you think things will get better if Greece capitulates to Turkish demands? Turkey has problems with all its neighbours at the moment, yet you think its Turkey that is somehow in the right, it makes me wonder about you.

Turkish-Greek relations would normalize if Turkey follows international law, therefore it is Turkey that needs to smarten up.

I don't see things in black and white like most others here seem to want to polarize the masses ... that Jedi trick ain't gonna work on me.

My own people killed my ancestors. Burned them alive in public because they dared to have their own mind and believe in things they wanted to.

One of my relatives was famously beheaded in Brussels:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamoral,_Count_of_Egmont#Execution_and_destruction _of_Castle_Egmond

[Romanion]

I don't see things in black and white like most others here seem to want to polarize the masses ... that Jedi trick ain't gonna work on me.

My own people killed my ancestors. Burned them alive in public because they dared to have their own mind and believe in things they wanted to.

One of my relatives was famously beheaded in Brussels:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamoral,_Count_of_Egmont#Execution_and_destruction _of_Castle_Egmond

That's sad to hear, but what does it have to do with the discussion?

[Loki]

That's sad to hear, but what does it have to do with the discussion?

It's not sad, it's history.

I want to show you that my viewpoint is not based on ignorance nor wishful thinking, but instead on a solid conviction after considering historical contexts.

If this causes me to be 'unpopular' etc etc among 'these circles' (whatever that may imply), then so be it.

[Romanion]

It's not sad, it's history.

I want to show you that my viewpoint is not based on ignorance nor wishful thinking, but instead on a solid conviction after considering historical contexts.

If this causes me to be 'unpopular' etc etc among 'these circles' (whatever that may imply), then so be it.

Blaming your lack of education on the situation on your "solid conviction" is what I would call ignorance and arrogance.

Thinking Greece would ignore the situation on Cyprus and give up soverignty to Turkey in its waters for some sort of "alliance" is wishful thinking.

Or you can just come and out and say you are pro-Turk, I can respect that more than trying to cover it up like this.

[Onur]

Loki, as much as you try to present ideas for them to save themselves from misery, you will end up reaching same conclusion as me. I can guarantee that to you.

Sooner or later you will understand that they are hopeless case. So, just let them be drowned into their own hate. I just pity for the ordinary western European taxpayer who indirectly funds Greece`s existence but i have no pity for the Greeks themselves because it`s them who caused their own misery.

[Romanion]

Loki, as much as you try to present ideas for them to save themselves from misery, you will end up reaching same conclusion as me. I can guarantee that to you.

Sooner or later you will understand that they are hopeless case. So, just let them be drowned into their own hate. I just pity for the ordinary western European taxpayer who indirectly funds Greece`s existence but i have no pity for the Greeks themselves because it`s them who caused their own misery.

Yes Loki, become stupid and arrogant, become Turkish, join them.

[Romanion]

And yes, casus belli holds for a reason. Aegean sea IS NOT a Greek lake. Greece will never be able to expand maritime borders to 12 miles (basically reaching mainland Turkey) as long as a country called Turkey exists.

You Greeks can try to expand anytime you like but don't cry for the consequences again when your ass gets kicked as usual.

Only thing protecting Turkey is NATO and that means America. Turkish mongrel imperialism is an inbred genetic flaw from your defunked brain.

[Loki]

Blaming your lack of education on the situation on your "solid conviction" is what I would call ignorance and arrogance.

Thinking Greece would ignore the situation on Cyprus and give up soverignty to Turkey in its waters for some sort of "alliance" is wishful thinking.

Or you can just come and out and say you are pro-Turk, I can respect that more than trying to cover it up like this.

So ... because I *dare* to have an opinion different from yours, I now have a "lack of education". No wonder I end up being banned on other forums, since I always speak my mind and do so without intending harm etc. But I will not shut up for anyone, especially not for individuals like yourself who want to silence me by throwing in 'clever' quips. It ain't clever, mate.

[Guapo]

Greece was chosen to play the role of the European Union bankrupt member state in order to "create" the big problem to which the European Union is going to "find" the "solution" soon.

Greece was chosen because it symbolizes Europe (nobody in Europe cares about countries like Hungary or Estonia pfft) and because its economy was relatively easy to devastate after it renounced its own currency.

[Onur]

Only thing protecting Turkey is NATO and that means America.
Protecting from what? Who can hurt us here? Greece?! Is this joke of the day? :)

You couldn't manage to get Aegean Anatolia while we had no army and occupied by 7 different countries at the same time in 1919 but today, your possible damage to us cannot be more painful than a mosquito bite.

Turkey doesn't need anyone`s protection. Such concerns are for vassal states like yours, not for us.

[Romanion]

So ... because I *dare* to have an opinion different from yours, I now have a "lack of education". No wonder I end up being banned on other forums, since I always speak my mind and do so without intending harm etc. But I will not shut up for anyone, especially not for individuals like yourself who want to silence me by throwing in 'clever' quips. It ain't clever, mate.

The only thing not clever is your "suggestions" on what Greece should do, then get but-hurt when your illusions turns out to be fake. If you have a differnet opinion then defend it like a man, but don't be like a child and cry when you a proved to be wronge.

[Romanion]

Protecting from what? Who can hurt us here? Greece?! Is this joke of the day? :)

You couldn't manage to get Aegean Anatolia while we had no army and occupied by 7 different countries at the same time in 1919 but today, your possible damage to us cannot be more painful than a mosquito bite.

Turkey doesn't need anyone`s protection. Such concerns are for vassal states like yours, not for us.

It's not 1922 anymore. Greece if it wants to can legally declare war on Turkey tomorrow for the illegal ocupation of Cyprus, and it can call on friends that have an interest to see turkey cut down. The only thing proventing this is NATO and Turkish vassalage to America. America says missle shiled, Turkey says ok. Turkey is America's imperial arm in the Middle east, and your just a dumb Pomak that can't see otherwise.

[Loki]

The only thing not clever is your "suggestions" on what Greece should do, then get but-hurt when your illusions turns out to be fake. If you have a differnet opinion then defend it like a man, but don't be like a child and cry when you a proved to be wronge.

Like a man? You are throwing a hissy-fit like a teenager here. If you are truly interested in debate, let me know. Other than that, you'll at best get an ignore out of me.

As for proving: you have done nothing to counter my arguments, instead tried to 'silence' them with a pouring of invective.

[Romanion]

Like a man? You are throwing a hissy-fit like a teenager here. If you are truly interested in debate, let me know. Other than that, you'll at best get an ignore out of me.

As for proving: you have done nothing to counter my arguments, instead tried to 'silence' them with a a pouring of invective.

You have no arugements. Vague "Greeks should form and alliance with Turkey" and "its the last chance for Greece" shows your uneducated knowledge of the situation between the two countries and how Greece came into this financial mess. I try and explain why it is false then you bring up totaly unrelated topics about your families past and what you think your personality traits are. And it wasn't just me, but Dandi was saying the same thing but you just brush her off as well. You are totaly arrogant and ignorant.

Impress me by saying something realistic.

[Loki]

You have no arugements. Vague "Greeks should form and alliance with Turkey" and "its the last chance for Greece" shows your uneducated knowledge of the situation between the two countries and how Greece came into this financial mess. I try and explain why it is false then you bring up totaly unrelated topics about your families past and what you think your personality traits are. And it wasn't just me, but Dandi was saying the same thing but you just brush her off as well. You are totaly arrogant and ignorant.

Impress me by saying something realistic.

Look man ... I'm growing tired of this. I made a thread and threw an assumption up for debate.

You may disagree with it, it is your right. I ask that you will not debate the man, but the argument instead.

I made some comments about Greece, and you instead came around and launched a personal attack on me. That's not going to make the cut over here, dude.

So instead of brushing my questions off as "uneducated assumptions", bring forth some real debate to the table. The alternative is, unfortunately, a win in my favour. It suggests that I have hit a nerve and you are unable to debate my line of thinking in a rational debate.

Just sayin' :coffee:

[Curtis24]

Hear me out ... this may sound improbable, but could be the only workable solution.

How about ... a mighty domain on both sides of the Bosphorus .. both Greece and Turkey are no longer looking to the European Union for answers. They should go in allegiance together, and it would give the middle finger to the EU!! Imagine that ... a mighty empire that could rival that of the Byzantine era!!

Thoughts?

I have often heard it said that Greece "needs a patron". Greece doesn't produce enough food, so it has to follow orders from some other country. One theory is that Greece could form a client relationship with Turkey...

[Romanion]

Look man ... I'm growing tired of this. I made a thread and threw an assumption up for debate.

You may disagree with it, it is your right. I ask that you will not debate the man, but the argument instead.

I made some comments about Greece, and you instead came around and launched a personal attack on me. That's not going to make the cut over here, dude.

So instead of brushing my questions off as "uneducated assumptions", bring forth some real debate to the table. The alternative is, unfortunately, a win in my favour. It suggests that I have hit a nerve and you are unable to debate my line of thinking in a rational debate.

Just sayin' :coffee:

I don't think I have made any personal attacks against you, but I have pointed out your double standard and biased logic. The only nerve I've touched is when I suggested that the tensions between Greece and Turkey are not as petty as you think and that most of the aggression is comming from Turks, which seemed to shake your perception of that country. The only person I've had a mature debate with about the cause of the Greek crisis and solutions on this forum was with Tuan Belanda. I can not expect the same level of conversation with you if you continue to hold your day dreams as reality.

And I did bring forth Aguments in this post between the relationship between Greece and Turkey in this post, http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=884817&postcount=221, but you ignored them and told me a story of your family, then accuse me of personally attacking you. You say you are an outsider but I think you are not.

[Romanion]

I am STILL an outsider, despite the historical significance of Turkey. If anything, it caused me to look deeper into the situation, ignoring the usual ISLAM!!!111 etc propaganda that is employed to shout down any argument favoring Turkey.

I'm not that stupid but some ppl really do buy it.

Wow, another brilliant reply by Loki, how did I miss this one.

[Loki]

Wow, another brilliant reply by Loki, how did I miss this one.

If you continue with this attitude, I may as well cancel your Apricity account. But eh ... you have not yet stooped to levels other 'friends' have had.

However if you wish to continue derailing this thread with insults etc, I may just want to chuck you out of here. This is not Sparta, it is Apricity. :wink

[Romanion]

If you continue with this attitude, I may as well cancel your Apricity account. But eh ... you have not yet stooped to levels other 'friends' have had.

However if you wish to continue derailing this thread with insults etc, I may just want to chuck you out of here. This is not Sparta, it is Apricity. :wink

I guess I must be Thor :cool:

Edit- after thinking about it, go ahead and delete me off of The Apricity. I came here primarily to discuess inter balkan issues with other Balkanites, and had some good convo with the likes of Morski, Dandi, Sokol, Tuan and the like.

[Onur]

I don't think I have made any personal attacks against you, but I have pointed out your double standard and biased logic.
Yes you do.

You keep attacking Loki just because he proposed a reconciliation between Greece and Turkey for the good of your economical situation. You also keep denying my identity by calling me Pomak.

You are just being irrational and arrogant dumb.

[Romanion]

Yes you do.

You keep attacking Loki just because he proposed a reconciliation between Greece and Turkey for the good of your economical situation. You also keep denying my identity by calling me Pomak.

You are just being irrational and arrogant dumb.

You are a Pomak dumbass. And any reconciliation will mean first and formost Turkey recongize Cyprus and Greece soverignty. Stop acting like the idiot baby in your avatar, you're just a Greek hater with mental issues.

[Loki]

Romanion sent me a pm asking me to "delete me off apricity".

Well, I can make his account inactive. He seems to refuse to debate like a civilized person (i.e. without hurling abuse at his opponent, he feels somewhat less accomplished).

'nuff said.

Let us continue the debate.

[Lena]

Yes you do.

You keep attacking Loki just because he proposed a reconciliation between Greece and Turkey for the good of your economical situation.
...and you as a Turk jumped too easily onto the band wagon which makes me suspicious in your good intentions to say the least. Since when Turkey or Turks care(s) about Greece?
He kept 'attacking' who ever 'cause he held to his own opinion. Simple...


You are just being irrational and arrogant dumb.

:rolleyes2:
how the above differs you from any other member and who are you to label ppl as you go.


@ topic

Greece should default. Unnatural unions would be set to fail.

[Loki]

He kept 'attacking' who ever 'cause he held to his own opinion. Simple...


No come on Lena, that is unfair. The fact that you are debating on the side of Greece (as every good Serb should) must not distract you from common sense.

I uphold this principle, regardless of which side of the debate it comes from, or allegiance shown.

[Queen B]

Well as I said, have it your (Greek) way then. I just thought to throw in a logical-sounding argument to reason for a possible positive outcome in this quagmire. Such a radical solution would have been unthinkable if Greece was not in such a dire situation.

Maybe I am just ignorant, in your views. I uphold my opinion, though, as I think it is valid and workable ... the only thing that would suffer is a bit of romantic-nationalistic egotism. But that's about it.

Its not a Greek way or any other way Loki, and its not about being ignorant, or knowking the situation. Its common sense..

Can you trust a kid rapist near you kid?
Could you trust a thief to guard your savings?

I wouldn't.


So, just let them be drowned into their own hate.
I agree on that, that's why I enjoy seeing your obsessed-about-Greece posts!
:lol:


...and you as a Turk jumped too easily onto the band wagon which makes me suspicious in your good intentions to say the least. Since when Turkey or Turks care(s) about Greece?
He kept 'attacking' who ever 'cause he held to his own opinion. Simple...


Onur is in every thread related to Greece, and if not, he brings Greece in the discussion, ALWAYS.

He follows the logic of ''I should say you are ugly, so I can look more beautiful'' , all the time.

[Loki]

Its not a Greek way or any other way Loki, and its not about being ignorant, or knowking the situation. Its common sense..

Can you trust a kid rapist near you kid?
Could you trust a thief to guard your savings?

I wouldn't.



:no000000:

I wasn't talking about individual cases here, but a nation - and a country - as a whole.

As I have said, it was just a proposal. And now I realise it was a futile one.

Good luck you guys.

[Drawing-slim]

Easy dandelion, so far you guys have proven to be thiefs with high standarts. Conrd europe out of 400 billion dollars, wich i personally respect:D why calling ohter people thiefs..

[The Lawspeaker]

Easy dandelion, so far you guys have proven to be thiefs with high standarts. Conrd europe out of 400 billion dollars, wich i personally respect:D why calling ohter people thiefs..

I must admit: we were all looking at the Eastern Europeans to con us but then the Greeks showed them how it's done. Disgustingly brazen but very clever.