Turkish PM Erdogan: Turkey will support Albanians...even with military force

[Lena]

Note: It's in Albanian lang, lifted from their press.




Erdogan: Turqia do të mbështes shqiptarët..., edhe me ushtarë
Publikuar: 05.05.2012 - 21:45
http://koha.net/repository/images/f1_05erdogan-jpg1336247161.jpg

Ankara, 5 maj - Kryeministri turk Recep Tayyip Erdogan në një intervistë për kanalin shtetëror turk deklaron se Turqia do mbështes vëllezërit shqiptarë nëse do jetë e nevojshme edhe me trupa ushtarakë, ai shtoj më tej se populli Shqiptar ka të drejtën e vetëvendosjes për krijimin e një shteti të madh Shqiptar, dhe se UÇK nuk është organizate rebele-terroriste por vullneti i shqiptarëve për të mbrojtur trojet e tyre, transmeton “Graviteti.com".

Erdogan ka kërcënuar me shpërbërje të Maqedonisë dhe gjithë Ballkanit nëse te drejtat e shqiptarëve nuk merren parasysh. Ai shtoi se trupat kombëtare turke janë në gatishmëri dhe do ndihmojnë shqiptarët për çlirimin e trojeve shqiptare. Kjo deklaratë ka bërë që ministrat e Jashtëm grek dhe serb të reagojnë ashpër.

source (http://www.koha.net/?page=1,15,98291)



Translated via google translate:

Ankara, May 5 - Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan in an interview to the Turkish state channel states that Turkey will support the Albanian brothers if necessary with military troops, he added further that the Albanian people has the right to self-determination to create a greater Albanian state, and that the KLA is not the rebel-terrorist organization, but the will of the Albanians to defend their homes, reported "Graviteti.com".

Erdogan has threatened to dissolve all of Macedonia and the Balkans if the rights of Albanians are ignored. He added that the Turkish national troops are on standby and will help to liberate Albanian Albanian territories. This statement has become foreign ministers of Greece and Serbia to react harshly.

[Mortimer]

lol, Erdogan is a neo-ottomanist and islamist, nothing else to be expected from him, he wants turkey to gain foothold in balkans again

[Drawing-slim]

He is 100 % correct, and a very honest man to state that albanians deserve all thr rights and kla its not a terrorist organisation. But the will of the people.

He is telling you peoPle enough with your twisted sadistic shamless games.

[Onur]

This is fake news, not true at all.

Probably Albanians are dreaming about Turkey supposedly helping them to realize their super duper mega illyria dreams but this will never happen. Especially when Albanians are denying all the Turkish existance in Balkans and considering all muslims as Albanians or turkophone Albanians.

Since the destruction of Ottoman empire in Balkans, Albanians adopted whatever left from Turks and all the mosques including Turkish people became their hostages. Today, there are red eagle flags on top of all the Ottoman era buildings and they deny the existence of Turkish people in Balkans while trying to assimilate Turks in Macedonia and Kosovo since 1912.

They simply adopted all the good sides of Ottoman empire and calls them as "Albanian heritage" and left all the bad things to the Turks. In fact, Albanians had their own role both in bad and good sides of it.

[Drawing-slim]

If its a Fake news he still should say something along those lines. Considering we have no protection agains bigger size slavic army and greeks, thats why they play dirty taking cheap shots, consistantly, making life unpleasent for all region, all the time.
Regardless how albos and turks feel towards each other, turky as a powerfull in the region should have a say at what's right.

[Hayalet]

Sounds like a hoax to me as well. Especially since it refers to the Albanian-Macedonian rivalry which is rather unknown in Turkey.

[Kanuni]

This is fake news, not true at all.

Probably Albanians are dreaming about Turkey supposedly helping them to realize their super duper mega illyria dreams but this will never happen. Especially when Albanians are denying all the Turkish existance in Balkans and considering all muslims as Albanians or turkophone Albanians.

Since the destruction of Ottoman empire in Balkans, Albanians adopted whatever left from Turks and all the mosques including Turkish people became their hostages. Today, there are red eagle flags on top of all the Ottoman era buildings and they deny the existence of Turkish people in Balkans while trying to assimilate Turks in Macedonia and Kosovo since 1912.

They simply adopted all the good sides of Ottoman empire and calls them as "Albanian heritage" and left all the bad things to the Turks. In fact, Albanians had their own role both in bad and good sides of it.

Agreed this is a fake news.There is no confirmation for what he said.

The rest of your statements are bullshit as usual.

[safinator]

Fake news.

[Rron]

Fake news

[Lena]

This is fake news, not true at all.

Probably Albanians are dreaming about Turkey supposedly helping them to realize their super duper mega illyria dreams but this will never happen. Especially when Albanians are denying all the Turkish existance in Balkans and considering all muslims as Albanians or turkophone Albanians.

Since the destruction of Ottoman empire in Balkans, Albanians adopted whatever left from Turks and all the mosques including Turkish people became their hostages. Today, there are red eagle flags on top of all the Ottoman era buildings and they deny the existence of Turkish people in Balkans while trying to assimilate Turks in Macedonia and Kosovo since 1912.

They simply adopted all the good sides of Ottoman empire and calls them as "Albanian heritage" and left all the bad things to the Turks. In fact, Albanians had their own role both in bad and good sides of it.


If its a Fake news he still should say something along those lines.


Agreed this is a fake news.There is no confirmation for what he said.




Fake news.


Fake news

As I said, it's lifted from the Albanian press (link included) :wink
On the other hand, this article just tickled my mind to explore further what 'things' you guys has been fed up on a daily bases. :coffee:

[Kanuni]

As I said, it's lifted from the Albanian press (link included) :wink

I see you even check for Albanian portals and reading through google translate so you can write something.If this is not some kind of obsession...:coffee:



On the other hand, this article just tickled my mind to explore further what 'things' you guys has been fed up on a daily bases. :coffee:

What things should we fed up?

Let us suppose he said for truth.Does it matter?

Turkey is a NATO member and USA ally.;)

[Turkophagos]

Turkish PM Erdogan: Turkey will support Albanians...even with military force


JUBIU0gkWfs



Turkey will do what America will tell it to do. Like they did with the oil of Cyprus and Israel last summer.


Neo-mongols shouldn't act like they're anything else than Yankees' little regional bitch.

[Onur]

On the other hand, this article just tickled my mind to explore further what 'things' you guys has been fed up on a daily bases. :coffee:
Greek and Serbian media publishes false articles about Turkey every time, so you are also getting bombarded by your daily propaganda news in Serbia. For example, i saw this one before in Serbian media;

This one claims that the Wahhabis supposedly from Turkey goes to Macedonia, burns churches and creates inter-ethnic violence among Macedonians and Albanians;
http://www.vesti-online.com/Vesti/Ex-YU/199335/Vehabije--iz-Turske-pale-Strugu


Serbians are that idiot to believe this; "wahhabis from Turkey"? I bet there are more Wahhabis in Serbia than Turkey and it can only be other way around, Wahhabis comes from Balkans to Turkey.

[alb0zfinest]

Edit: Nvm i just saw that ameno took what i was going to say.
Please delete.

[Adrian]

This is fake news, not true at all.

This is the only truth in your post!


Probably Albanians are dreaming about Turkey supposedly helping them to realize their super duper mega illyria dreams but this will never happen. Especially when Albanians are denying all the Turkish existance in Balkans and considering all muslims as Albanians or turkophone Albanians.

No stupid, Albanians are oriented toward EU and USA, not Turkey. During the war in Kosovo the Albanians were helped by USA and EU, not by Turkey. Turkey's contribution was in the composition of NATO.
I will never understand you with this super duper Illyrian dreams BS. When we have discussed about Illyrians, in other threads, you have agreed with me or you have escaped like a bitch. Why do you need to repeat the same stupidity over and over again in all other threads like a parrot. Albanians do not pretend Illyrian territories because it is unimaginable. Such an idea would mean war with Serbia, Macedonia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Croatia, Slovenia, etc...and killing or expulsion of the inhabitants of these countries. Where did you hear that idiocy?


Since the destruction of Ottoman empire in Balkans, Albanians adopted whatever left from Turks and all the mosques including Turkish people became their hostages. Today, there are red eagle flags on top of all the Ottoman era buildings and they deny the existence of Turkish people in Balkans while trying to assimilate Turks in Macedonia and Kosovo since 1912.

It was the same flag that have ashamed you in 28 battles.
Illiteracy and mosques are the biggest "contribution" of the Ottoman Empire in Albanian lands. At a time when Serbia have had university in serbian language, during Ottoman invasion, it was forbidden for us even to use our language...let alone schools or university which have not existed at all. Am not talking about imposing religion through pressures, consequences of which are evident even today.


They simply adopted all the good sides of Ottoman empire and calls them as "Albanian heritage" and left all the bad things to the Turks. In fact, Albanians had their own role both in bad and good sides of it.

I wish you all the best ones that we have had from the Ottoman Empire to happen in your country and in your head. As I said, Ottoman invasion was one of the major disasters that have occurred to Albanian people during history.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Greek and Serbian media publishes false articles about Turkey every time, so you are also getting bombarded by your daily propaganda news in Serbia. For example, i saw this one before in Serbian media;

This one claims that the Wahhabis supposedly from Turkey goes to Macedonia, burns churches and creates inter-ethnic violence among Macedonians and Albanians;
http://www.vesti-online.com/Vesti/Ex-YU/199335/Vehabije--iz-Turske-pale-Strugu


Serbians are that idiot to believe this; "wahhabis from Turkey"? I bet there are more Wahhabis in Serbia than Turkey and it can only be other way around, Wahhabis comes from Balkans to Turkey.

Wahhabis from Turkey? Hmmmm

I'd say "Al-Qaeda warriors":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Istanbul_bombings


On November 15, 2003, two trucks carrying bombs slammed into the Bet Israel and Neve Shalom synagogues in Istanbul, Turkey and exploded. The explosions devastated the synagogues and killed twenty-seven people, most of them Turkish Muslims,[1] and injured more than 300 others. Six Jews were among the dead....[1][2][3]


Five days later, on November 20, as US President George W. Bush was in the United Kingdom meeting with Prime Minister Tony Blair, two more truck bombs exploded. Suicide bombers detonated the vehicles at the headquarters of HSBC Bank AS and the British Consulate, killing thirty people and wounding 400 others. The bombers appeared to have waited for the traffic lights in front of the HSBC headquarters to turn red to maximize the effects. Several Britons were killed in the two attacks, including the top British official in Istanbul, consul general Roger Short, but most of the victims were Turkish Muslims (such as actor and singer Kerem Yılmazer), as in the earlier synagogue blasts....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Istanbul_bombings#Responsibility


Turkey charged 74 people with involvement in the bombings, including Syrians Loai al-Saqa and Hamid Obysi, and a Turk, Harun Ilhan. Ilhan admitted that he and two other suspected ringleaders — Habib Akdaş and Gurcan Bac — were responsible; Ilhan referred to himself as ‘an al-Qaeda warrior'....

Cheers, Onur!

P.S.

None of the sources for this article were Greek or Serbian. In fact, they were not even Turkish, but from Western media (BBC, Washington post e.t.c.)

BTW, I have a piece from the British "Daily Telegraph":

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/7347026/Turkey-generals-accused-of-plotting-2003-Istanbul-bombing.html


Turkey generals accused of links to 2003 Istanbul bombing
Three retired Turkish military leaders have been accused of helping to plan the 2003 Istanbul bombing which claimed 60 lives including three Britons.

The men are alleged to have plotted with al-Qaeda to carry out the attack in the hope of destabilising the government and paving the way for a military coup.

...


Prosecutors have arrested 35 ex-military figures in recent weeks on suspicion of being part of the plot which is also said to have involved plans to provoke Greece into shooting down a Turkish fighter jet.

Turkey's military traditionally views itself as the defender of the secular state and harbours deep suspicions over the religious origins of the AK Party of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

Gen Çetin Dogan, who has been described as the ringleader of the conspiracy as head of the 1st army and then deputy chief of the military staff, faced questions over Istanbul bombings before he was remanded in custody on Sunday. Gen Ibrahim Fırtına, the ex-air force chief and Adml Özden Örnek, a former naval commander, also faced questions over the links to the Istanbul bombing.

Turkey put 69 people on trial after the attacks on charges of carrying out the car bombings. DNA tests proved that the driver of the vehicle used to blow up the consulate was Feridun Ugurlu, a militant who had previously been named as an accomplice in the synagogue attacks.

[Yaroslav]

Albanians and Turks are not friends from my observations. Only Islamists get along.

[Yaroslav]

Greek and Serbian media publishes false articles about Turkey every time, so you are also getting bombarded by your daily propaganda news in Serbia. For example, i saw this one before in Serbian media;

This one claims that the Wahhabis supposedly from Turkey goes to Macedonia, burns churches and creates inter-ethnic violence among Macedonians and Albanians;
http://www.vesti-online.com/Vesti/Ex-YU/199335/Vehabije--iz-Turske-pale-Strugu


Serbians are that idiot to believe this; "wahhabis from Turkey"? I bet there are more Wahhabis in Serbia than Turkey and it can only be other way around, Wahhabis comes from Balkans to Turkey.

Wahhabis have Saudi/American origins in Balkans.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Albanians and Turks are not friends from my observations. Only Islamists get along.

Can you name a Balkaner who is still fond of the Turks? I mean, I seriously doubt that even the Bosnians really like them...

[Lena]

I see you even check for Albanian portals and reading through google translate so you can write something.If this is not some kind of obsession...:coffee:

Feels good for a sec, eh? LOL! Stop flattering yourself :D Besides your press I read Russian, Greek, American and few others as well :coffee:


What things should we fed up?
That 'things' thingy wasn't in a good context, Ameno :wink


Let us suppose he said for truth.Does it matter?

Turkey is a NATO member and USA ally.;)

Sure it matters, Turkey's PM isn't the one who has a permit to trow around such a statements.

[Lena]

Greek and Serbian media publishes false articles about Turkey every time, so you are also getting bombarded by your daily propaganda news in Serbia. For example, i saw this one before in Serbian media;

This one claims that the Wahhabis supposedly from Turkey goes to Macedonia, burns churches and creates inter-ethnic violence among Macedonians and Albanians;
http://www.vesti-online.com/Vesti/Ex-YU/199335/Vehabije--iz-Turske-pale-Strugu


Serbians are that idiot to believe this; "wahhabis from Turkey"? I bet there are more Wahhabis in Serbia than Turkey and it can only be other way around, Wahhabis comes from Balkans to Turkey.

If you can't understand Serbian better not to give a comment at all. In article it says that it's opinion given by Valyon Kutrishi, who is by 'chance' president of the non-government organization 'Ilirikum libertas', in other words both Albanian cuisine.

[Linet]

Well, those news were on our news some time ago as message/warning of Turkey to Fyrom for the Albanians who live there.

[Hurrem sultana]

i just got the news are fake :D

[Hurrem sultana]

If its a Fake news he still should say something along those lines. Considering we have no protection agains bigger size slavic army and greeks, thats why they play dirty taking cheap shots, consistantly, making life unpleasent for all region, all the time.
Regardless how albos and turks feel towards each other, turky as a powerfull in the region should have a say at what's right.

You want Turkish help now? what about those harsh words against turks/muslims in general

albanians seem to want to have the cake and eat...well not possible


:coffee:

[Anarch]

I imagine the Turks have more important things to worry about with the progressive implosion of Syria next door, leaving aside the whole issue of Turkey's power projection capability.

[iNird]

You want Turkish help now? what about those harsh words against turks/muslims in general

albanians seem to want to have the cake and eat...well not possible


:coffee:

Most Albanians do not want help from Turkey. I see them as a threat to our identity in the Balkans.

You should see the Slavophone Muslims in my region that are proud Turks today. Can't speak a lick of Turkish, now all of a sudden there is a Turkish minority but 20 years ago these people considered themselves Muslim Slavs (and some other Albanians.) Now they're bigger Turkish patriots than Onur.

:coffee:

[Sultan Suleiman]

lol, Erdogan is a neo-ottomanist and islamist, nothing else to be expected from him, he wants turkey to gain foothold in balkans again

It already has it :rolleyes:

[Hurrem sultana]

You should see the Slavophone Muslims in my region that are proud Turks today.

That is what happens when you are a too little to form your own identity,nothing strange.Some of them also claim to be Bosniaks

[Drawing-slim]

You want Turkish help now? what about those harsh words against turks/muslims in general

albanians seem to want to have the cake and eat...well not possible


:coffee:

No, i'm not asking for help. They ow it to us, becuase they punished us the most and rewarded serbia the most.

It is whats morally right to do for for turkey as e region player.
Its fake news but if it was true i would respect turkey and any big country for being morally just and siding for whats is right.

[Sultan Suleiman]

That is what happens when you are a too little to form your own identity,nothing strange.Some of them also claim to be Bosniaks

I have nothing against assimilating Pomaks and Gorani into Bosniakdom :thumb001:

They are Muslim Slavs after all, hell I even support assimilation of Njemački convert Muslims if they renounce their silly language :coffee:

[Hurrem sultana]

I have nothing against assimilating Pomaks and Gorani into Bosniakdom :thumb001:

They are Muslim Slavs after all, hell I even support assimilation of Njemački convert Muslims if they renounce their silly language :coffee:

I am not saying anything....one of my friends married a gorani girl,,her family is Bosniak:thumb001:

[Onur]

Most Albanians do not want help from Turkey. I see them as a threat to our identity in the Balkans.
And i see you as a useless bunch of people which probably Turkey wouldn't hassle to deal with you for anything. Ofc it`s good to have some naval bases in Adriatic sea, in the western coasts of Albania to send a strong message to arrogant Greeks but thats it and it`s more than enough.


You should see the Slavophone Muslims in my region that are proud Turks today. Can't speak a lick of Turkish, now all of a sudden there is a Turkish minority but 20 years ago these people considered themselves Muslim Slavs (and some other Albanians.) Now they're bigger Turkish patriots than Onur.

:coffee:
where is your region exactly? "Muslim slav" is not an ethnic or national identity. Which language they speak, which slavic language? and who are they?

You Albanians constantly trying to assimilate Turks, Bosnians and Macedonian muslims in Macedonia and Kosova for decades. Now you get hurt when some of them identifies themselves as Turks instead of Albanians?

[Hurrem sultana]

No, i'm not asking for help. They ow it to us, becuase they punished us the most and rewarded serbia the most.

It is whats morally right to do for for turkey as e region player.
Its fake news but if it was true i would respect turkey and any big country for being morally just and siding for whats is right.

There is no moral in politics,only interest

[iNird]

I have nothing against assimilating Pomaks and Gorani into Bosniakdom :thumb001:

They are Muslim Slavs after all, hell I even support assimilation of Njemački convert Muslims if they renounce their silly language :coffee:

Bosniakdom? Sounds like a WWF (now known as WWE) wrestler.

:coffee:

[iNird]

And i see you as a useless bunch of people which probably Turkey wouldn't hassle to deal with you for anything. Ofc it`s good to have some naval bases in Adriatic sea, in the western coasts of Albania to send a strong message to arrogant Greeks but thats it and it`s more than enough.


where is your region exactly? "Muslim slav" is not an ethnic or national identity. Which language they speak, which slavic language? and who are they?

You Albanians constantly trying to assimilate Turks, Bosnians and Macedonian muslims in Macedonia and Kosova for decades. Now you get hurt when some of them identifies themselves as Turks instead of Albanians?

Muslim Slav=Torbesh=Macedonian Muslim. They still speak a weird hybrid of Slavic+Albanian+god knows what else.

And I just told you the majority of these people where Muslim Slavs. Today Turkish patriots.

And there is no official "assimilation" policy towards the Turks. In Prizren, Turkish is an official language, there is news outlets in Turkish and representatives in government. Tell me if any of the "Arnauts" have the above in Turkey? Who's trying to assimilate who?

:coffee:

[Midori]

Macedonian muslims

No such thing.

[iNird]

No such thing.

Explain?

[Sultan Suleiman]

I am not saying anything....one of my friends married a gorani girl,,her family is Bosniak:thumb001:

She is a start :thumb001:

1 down 150 K left to go :D

[Sultan Suleiman]

Bosniakdom? Sounds like a WWF (now known as WWE) wrestler.

:coffee:

Bosniakdom, Bosniakhood, Bošnjaštvo...

[Midori]

Explain?

Those ''Macedonian'' Muslims identify as Turks. And no Macedonian likes them anyway.

[Hurrem sultana]

She is a start :thumb001:

1 down 150 K left to go :D

you can visit Kosovo and "import" one more to Bosnia :D

[iNird]

Those ''Macedonian'' Muslims identify as Turks. And no Macedonian likes them anyway.

Most Orthodox Macedonians do not like Torbesh. Yet for some reason these same people are hard core supporters for the few muslim Slavs in Albania.

:coffee:

[Grizzly]

I have nothing against assimilating Pomaks and Gorani into Bosniakdom :thumb001:

They are Muslim Slavs after all, hell I even support assimilation of Njemački convert Muslims if they renounce their silly language :coffee:

What's wrong with you? Don't you have any identity what so ever? You sound like a turk trying to assimilate all these people into a greater state.

[Midori]

Most Orthodox Macedonians do not like Torbesh. Yet for some reason these same people are hard core supporters for the few muslim Slavs in Albania.

:coffee:

Why should we consider them Macedonians when they identify as Albanians and Turks? And their religion is foreign to our nation.

[iNird]

Why should we consider them Macedonians when they identify as Albanians and Turks? And their religion is foreign to our nation.

It's up to the group if they want to accept them as their own. I don't really care if Orthodox Macedonians accept them as their own. I'm just pointing out the typical Balkan hypocrisy. Hate on your own Muslim kin in your own country but support the Muslim Slavs in a foreign country.

:D

Basically political bs...

[Hurrem sultana]

Why should we consider them Macedonians when they identify as Albanians and Turks? And their religion is foreign to our nation.

They are not albanians,there was on bosnian tv a time ago about them,,they complained how the macedonian albanians dominate in mosques etc...i mean,it is a clear sign they do not see themselves albanian

[Midori]

They are not albanians,there was on bosnian tv a time ago about them,,they complained how the macedonian albanians dominate in mosques etc...i mean,it is a clear sign they do not see themselves albanian

They may not be, but some of them identify as such. And many Macedonians call them the derogatory name for Albanians because of their religion. (I don't like that word, you probably know which one)

[iNird]

They are not albanians,there was on bosnian tv a time ago about them,,they complained how the macedonian albanians dominate in mosques etc...i mean,it is a clear sign they do not see themselves albanian

Some Albanians believe some of these Torbesh were Slavicized during the Yugo times. IMO, many of them are not Albanians. We use Torbesh and other similar words as an insult.

That's why many of them are extremely religious or identify as Turkish. Because they aren't accepted by the majority of Macedonians or Albanians.

[iNird]

They may not be, but some of them identify as such. And many Macedonians call them the derogatory name for Albanians because of their religion. (I don't like that word, you probably know which one)

I think many of the Muslim SLavs in Veleshta identify as Albanian. That's one of the few places I know of.

[Hurrem sultana]

They may not be, but some of them identify as such. And many Macedonians call them the derogatory name for Albanians because of their religion. (I don't like that word, you probably know which one)

Yes i know,but they are not that! their religion has nothing to do with Albanians,it is like serbs calling us turks just because of religion..silly

[Sultan Suleiman]

What's wrong with you? Don't you have any identity what so ever? You sound like a turk trying to assimilate all these people into a greater state.

They will either go to Turks or you Albos, just as the Vlachs were assimilated into Serbs. At least with us they will keep their Slavic heritage under a new banner :thumb001:

And a little imperialism here and there didn't kill any one :coffee:

[Hurrem sultana]

Some Albanians believe some of these Torbesh were Slavicized during the Yugo times. IMO, many of them are not Albanians. We use Torbesh and other similar words as an insult.

That's why many of them are extremely religious or identify as Turkish. Because they aren't accepted by the majority of Macedonians or Albanians.

They even have their own Islamic community etc..i mean Yugo time is not that long time ago one can not change language and identity in 50 years:D

[Midori]

Yes i know,but they are not that! their religion has nothing to do with Albanians,it is like serbs calling us turks just because of religion..silly

I understand, but most of them don't identify as Macedonians so I really see no reason why we should force them to feel that way.

[iNird]

They even have their own Islamic community etc..i mean Yugo time is not that long time ago one can not change language and identity in 50 years:D

Eh 50 years is a long time. That's a few generations. All you need is one generation to identify as "x" and the other generations will follow.

[Hurrem sultana]

I understand, but most of them don't identify as Macedonians so I really see no reason why we should force them to feel that way.

They are not Macedonian but they are not Albanian either,they are a slavic minority..some of them want to be part of a bigger group,so they identify as turk,or bosniak

[Hurrem sultana]

Eh 50 years is a long time. That's a few generations. All you need is one generation to identify as "x" and the other generations will follow.

loool yeah right:D

why would they dislike you so much if their grandpa knows he was an albo?:coffee:

[Rron]

Well, those news were on our news some time ago as message/warning of Turkey to Fyrom for the Albanians who live there.
Why you resurrected this thread ?


You want Turkish help now? what about those harsh words against turks/muslims in general

albanians seem to want to have the cake and eat...well not possible


:coffee:

:coffee:Bosnian works in turkish PM cabinet

And i see you as a useless bunch of people which probably Turkey wouldn't hassle to deal with you for anything. Ofc it`s good to have some naval bases in Adriatic sea, in the western coasts of Albania to send a strong message to arrogant Greeks but thats it and it`s more than enough.
What now, you forgot to mention word Illyrians :lol: your obssesion about our ancestry also crying why Albanians were supporters of Gjergj Kastrioti, in this i will describe your desperate attempt like some accuse which sounds : Why Albanians were Albanians


where is your region exactly? "Muslim slav" is not an ethnic or national identity. Which language they speak, which slavic language? and who are they?
Exactly its not ethnicity, those peple have lose their ethnic identity from your oppresion during ottoman era, and by religios influence to create cultural nation just like you are today.


You Albanians constantly trying to assimilate Turks, Bosnians and Macedonian muslims in Macedonia and Kosova for decades. Now you get hurt when some of them identifies themselves as Turks instead of Albanians?
Parrot how many times i need to repeat same words there is recognised minority in Kosova, also in Fyrom, and no Albanians never attempted to assimilate any turks what logic is this, we were under your occupation till 1912.

[Hurrem sultana]

Parrot how many times i need to repeat same words there is recognised minority in Kosova

which minorities are recognized?

[iNird]

loool yeah right:D

why would they dislike you so much if their grandpa knows he was an albo?:coffee:

IMO it's more frequent than you believe. There was a Macedonian Encyclopedia a few years ago that was controversial and considered anti-Albanian. Some Albanians claim some of the writers of the encyclopedia are of Albanian descent (basically Albanian orthodox who are now slavicized.)

If I found out tomorrow one of my ancestors was a Slav, I don't think it would change my opinion on things.

Hell the Albanians in Macedonia were once christians and now some idiots scream "kaur" in an insulting manner (they are insulting their own ancestors when they scream that stuff.)

[Hurrem sultana]

IMO it's more frequent than you believe. There was a Macedonian Encyclopedia a few years ago that was controversial and considered anti-Albanian. Some Albanians claim some of the writers of the encyclopedia are of Albanian descent (basically Albanian orthodox who are now slavicized.)

If I found out tomorrow one of my ancestors was a Slav, I don't think it would change my opinion on things.

Hell the Albanians in Macedonia were once christians and now some idiots scream "kaur" in an insulting manner (they are insulting their own ancestors when they scream that stuff.)

Yeah individual cases are possible but not in mass,group "conversions" after just 50 years

for that,you need at least 150-200 years..and also it is too late for that. identities have been formed everywhere.Those who scream "kaur" have been muslims for hundreds of years,not since 50 years.they dont remember they grandfather Peter and grandma Maria :D

[Grizzly]

They will either go to Turks or you Albos, just as the Vlachs were assimilated into Serbs. At least with us they will keep their Slavic heritage under a new banner :thumb001:

And a little imperialism here and there didn't kill any one :coffee:

If that's the case why don't you just affiliate yourself as a Serb? You have the same roots, ethnicity, etc, just religion is different..

[Rron]

which minorities are recognized?
Bosniaks, turks , serbs , gorans , roma.

[iNird]

Yeah individual cases are possible but not in mass,group "conversions" after just 50 years

for that,you need at least 150-200 years..and also it is too late for that. identities have been formed everywhere.Those who scream "kaur" have been muslims for hundreds of years,not since 50 years.they dont remember they grandfather Peter and grandma Maria :D

Well maybe today it is a bit tougher today. I think in the past where people wasn't as educated and they lived in their small villages it was easier to assimilate people. Assimilate a few of the elders or village leaders and the whole village would follow suite.

:D

[iNird]

Bosniaks, turks , serbs gorans , roma.

Ye exactly. And Onur wants to speak of "assimilation." Onur brings up individual cases but forgets there are millions of "arnauts" that don't have 1/10 of the rights these self proclaimed Turks (who range in the thousands) have in Kosovo.

:rolleyes:

[Rron]

Ye exactly. And Onur wants to speak of "assimilation." Onur brings up individual cases but forgets there are millions of "arnauts" that don't have 1/10 of the rights these self proclaimed Turks (who range in the thousands) have in Kosovo.

:rolleyes:
Yeah for them dont exist concept ethnic identity because they are actually cultural nation.

[Sultan Suleiman]

If that's the case why don't you just affiliate yourself as a Serb? You have the same roots, ethnicity, etc, just religion is different..

Religion maters in Balkans and Bosniak identity is more or less Islamized, just as Croatian and Serbian ones are Christianized (each according to their interpretation of it). The very essence of Serbdom is one land, one faith, one king.

You Albos are a fluke in our clero/national system :coffee:

[Onur]

Muslim Slav=Torbesh=Macedonian Muslim. They still speak a weird hybrid of Slavic+Albanian+god knows what else.

And I just told you the majority of these people where Muslim Slavs. Today Turkish patriots.
You have absolutely no difference from them except the different ethnic consciousness. Their hybrid language of slavic+Albo+Turkish reflects their mixed ancesttry. You are also same with them but it`s just your mindset is heavily Albo with illyrian myths unlike the others.


Onur wants to speak of "assimilation." Onur brings up individual cases but forgets there are millions of "arnauts" that don't have 1/10 of the rights these self proclaimed Turks (who range in the thousands) have in Kosovo.
We never tried to assimilate Albos in Turkey. They just escaped from the shitty commie state of Yugoslavia when they had their chance and immigrated to Turkey by secretly blending among ethnic Turks of Kosovo and Macedonia when Tito expelled Turks of Macedonia and Kosova to Turkey. If some of them are assimilated in Turkey today, it was because of their own preference.

I cant blame them for not buying illyrian myths or glorification of a man of unimportance, a simple Ottoman rebel named skanderbeg. They have chosen Turkish identity instead of all these nonsense.


Some Albanians believe some of these Torbesh were Slavicized during the Yugo times. IMO, many of them are not Albanians. We use Torbesh and other similar words as an insult.

That's why many of them are extremely religious or identify as Turkish. Because they aren't accepted by the majority of Macedonians or Albanians.
Because these Albos are idiots. It`s not possible for them to be slavicized during Yugo era because it`s like yesterday, only ended in 1991. They should have surely remember their grandparents language and identity today if that would be the case.

If they are extremely religious today, it`s because they have been dismissed by their own kinsmen and extradited from the society they live in. So they turn inwards by turning out as aliens among their own society.

[Onur]

Why should we consider them Macedonians when they identify as Albanians and Turks? And their religion is foreign to our nation.
Do you consider Yugo nostalgics and Serbophils as aliens as these muslim Macedonians? Do you humiliate and despise them as such? OR being Serbophil is OK for you just because they were your last masters and they are christians?

You balkanites are interesting bunch. There are already several new states today from the old Yugoslavia [how many, is it became 10?] and you still tend to divide among yourselves.

You are like a primitive form of microorganism who multiplies by dividing but not by breeding and as you divide more, you tend to develop cancer and start to eat and destroy each other. Then everything starts over again after you cleared up some elements among you. I call you all Balkanites as "Dividius Balkanus Cancerus". A primitive and destructive life form.

But interestingly, we have a mini-Balkans here in Turkey. We have Albos, Macedonians, Bosnians, Montenegrins living among us. They are getting along extremely well within each other. They never fight at all but they love each other and occasionally intermarry. So, like i said before, your current situation is because of false mindstate in balkans due to poisoning from numerous different sources. I don't think the ones in Turkey get along pretty well just because all are muslims. I believe even if a group of christian Serb migrates here, they would surely get along well too due to being far away from poisonous sources.

[Dacul]

US gave nuclear weapons to Turkey.
Welcome to new nazi world lead by nazis from US.
You know that nazis always liked turks and this is why they brought turkish men to replace the german men that died in WW2.
They do not understand that turks got very few altaian descent,even fewer than romanians,(who seems to have most in Europe ) and that because of their islamic religion there is a big cultural difference between germans and them and this is why they did not integrated in Germany.
Some europeans from US I think are behind nazism and nazism originated in US and not in Germany.
Do you think they stoped despising slavs?
I doubt.
Thing is now they saw romanians are genetically from south slavs mixed with north slavs so romanians were added to the black list and thus the harsh measures meant to bring disaster in the romanian population,imposed in Romania by IMF delegation lead by mr sectarian mormon Jeffrey Franks.
In fact,romanians are the heart of the slavs,since most slavs were not warriors but dacians even if slavs,were atypical and were the most terrible warriors from all slavs.
And romanians modernized their language by taking lots of words from latin.

[iNird]

You have absolutely no difference from them except the ethnic consciousness. Their hybrid language of slavic+Albo+Turkish reflects their mixed ancesttry. You are also same with them but it`s just your mindset is heavily Albo with illyrian myths unlike the others.


Well no shit? Ethnic consciousness is based on language for many ethnic groups, is it not? Especially in Macedonia. You can't speak Macedonian as a mother tongue and claim to be Albanian. Or vice versa. There are other factors but it is a general rule of thumb.

And relax with this Illyrian stuff. We believe we are descendants of Illyrians. That is all. We don't claim everything that is Illyrian nor do we build mass amounts of ancient statutes to support this claim. We leave this type of stuff to our neighbors.


We never tried to assimilate Albos in Turkey. They just escaped from shitty commie state of Yugoslavia when they had their chance and immigrated to Turkey by secretly blending among ethnic Turks of Kosovo and Macedonia. If the are assimilated in Turkey today, it was because of their own preference.



Look I agree for the most part (some were forced to leave btw.) But by not providing them schooling and/or other minorities rights they were assimilated. I'm not claiming it is forced assimilation. More of a systematical one.


I cant blame them for not buying illyrian myths or glorification of a man of unimportance, a simple Ottoman rebel named skanderbeg. They have chosen Turkish identity instead of all these nonsense.


Again see my first post about the Illyrians. They have chosen the Turkish identity because they live in Turkey and there are no government initiatives to preserve their ethnicity. I'm not blaming the Turks because it is ultimately up to the individual to ask for these rights, but in Kosovo the Turkish identity is protected by the state. So don't start talking about assimilation.


Because these Albos are idiots. It`s not possible for them to be slavicized during Yugo era because it`s like yesterday, only ended in 1991. They should have surely remember their grandparents language and identity today if that would be the case.



Actually it's quite easy. In FYROM ethnicity is usually based on language. In general, in order to Albanian you need to speak the language (this is not the only factor though.) Our neighbors identity is more based on language and religion but ours is more based on language. If these people start to speak Macedonian and/or Turkish then they lose their ethnicity and start affiliating with other groups.

And there are plenty of examples of this happening. It's not just one way, because there are surely Slavs and Turks to a lesser extent that have assimilated into the Albanian ethnos.

To give you an example, in my region there is one village where Albanian speaking Macedonians recognize their Albanian roots but speak Macedonian primarily. Their wedding songs are in Albanian, traditions do not differ from us, the only thing that differs is the language they speak. After WWII the leaders in the village Slavicized the village and schooling was done in Slavic Macedonian.


If they are extremely religious today, it`s because they have been dismissed by their own kinsmen and extradited from the society they live in. So they turn inwards by turning out as aliens among their own society.


Agreed.

[Midori]

Do you consider Yugo nostalgics and Serbophils as aliens as these muslim Macedonians?

I'm a Yugonostalgic myself, there is nothing wrong with that. And I repeat, there is no such thing as a Muslim ''Macedonian''. They don't even see themselves as such.

[iNird]

But interestingly, we have a mini-Balkans here in Turkey. We have Albos, Macedonians, Bosnians, Montenegrins living among us. They are getting along extremely well within each other. They never fight at all but they love each other and occasionally intermarry. So, like i said before, your current situation is because of false mindstate in balkans due to poisoning from numerous different sources. I don't think the ones in Turkey get along pretty well just because all are muslims. I believe even if a group of christian Serb migrates here, they would surely get along well too due to being far away from poisonous sources.

The ones in Turkey get along because they have adopted Turkish consciousness. They speak the same language, are of the same religion and have adopted the Turkish way of life. They're basically Turks of "x" background. Now for example, if these different ethnic groups had schooling in their own language, were of different faiths and did not adopt Turkish consciousness, there would be the same issues because they would identify as their "x" background.

I live in the United States and we don't really quarrel with other Balkan groups. Sure we don't associate ourselves with them but I think it would be similar to the situation in Turkey.

[Sultan Suleiman]

US gave nuclear weapons to Turkey.
Welcome to new nazi world lead by nazis from US.
You know that nazis always liked turks and this is why they brought turkish men to replace the german men that died in WW2.
They do not understand that turks got very few altaian descent,even fewer than romanians,(who seems to have most in Europe ) and that because of their islamic religion there is a big cultural difference between germans and them and this is why they did not integrated in Germany.
Some europeans from US I think are behind nazism and nazism originated in US and not in Germany.
Do you think they stoped despising slavs?
I doubt.
Thing is now they saw romanians are genetically from south slavs mixed with north slavs so romanians were added to the black list and thus the harsh measures meant to bring disaster in the romanian population,imposed in Romania by IMF delegation lead by mr sectarian mormon Jeffrey Franks.
In fact,romanians are the heart of the slavs,since most slavs were not warriors but dacians even if slavs,were atypical and were the most terrible warriors from all slavs.
And romanians modernized their language by taking lots of words from latin.

Wasn't Romania in the Axis?

[Linet]

Through this forum i started to appreciate Albanians alot more...
They are proud , dont ask for help and they remember their history... bravo guys...

[Grizzly]

You balkanites are interesting bunch. There are already several new states today from the old Yugoslavia [how many, is it became 10?] and you still tend to divide among yourselves.

You are like a primitive form of microorganism who multiplies by dividing but not by breeding and as you divide more, you tend to develop cancer and start to eat and destroy each other. Then everything starts over again after you cleared up some elements among you. I call you all Balkanites as "Dividius Balkanus Cancerus". A primitive and destructive life form.


A mongrel talking about ethics.

I have seen it all :eek:

[Onur]

They have chosen the Turkish identity because they live in Turkey and there are no government initiatives to preserve their ethnicity. I'm not blaming the Turks because it is ultimately up to the individual to ask for these rights,
You should also consider that for any muslim in Kosova or Macedonia, it`s possible to adopt Turkish, Albanian, Macedonian or Bosnian identity because most of them have Turkish, Albanian, Bosnian ancestors at some point and some even have ancestors from all these groups each.


but in Kosovo the Turkish identity is protected by the state. So don't start talking about assimilation.
As soon as you separated from Serbia, you ignored and dismissed Turkish language but only recently, a year ago or so, you accepted to Turkish identity in Kosova.

Also no one prevents any Albo in Turkey to learn and speak Albanian. They are free to do whatever they want. We have many politicians, mayors and other prominent figures in Turkey with Albanian descent. They are not getting discriminated here in any case.


Our neighbors identity is more based on language and religion but ours is more based on language.
Yours is the healthier and proper one but other Balkanites expression of identity is wrong. Actually i consider Albania is the most succesful Balkan state in this case. You managed to prevail despite the existence of catholic, orthodox, sunni, bektasi peoples without any conflict among yourselves at all while other Balkanites are hating and occasionally killing each other.

It`s just i don't know why you are trying to copy the Greek way by falsely identifying yourselves with shallow people from antiquity. This is just absurd and you don't need that at all. You are fine as you are and you don't need to connect yourself with unknown things from antiquity.


The ones in Turkey get along because they have adopted Turkish consciousness. They speak the same language, are of the same religion and have adopted the Turkish way of life. They're basically Turks of "x" background.

I live in the United States and we don't really quarrel with other Balkan groups. Sure we don't associate ourselves with them but I think it would be similar to the situation in Turkey.
Well, maybe thats the case but like i told you, even if they adopt Turkish way of life, most of them aware of their own identities. They proudly express their Bosniak, Albanian identities if they want and not a single Turk are getting disturbed by that if they do so.

And they are getting along with each other while expressing their different roots at the same time.

[Onur]

I'm a Yugonostalgic myself, there is nothing wrong with that.
Why? If they are becoming traitors just because they are muslims, then you are a traitor more than them because you are dreaming about Serbian dominance upon your country. They can only be as traitorous like you if they are dreaming about Albanian or Turkish dominance. If they are not, then i think you are more harmful to your own society.



And I repeat, there is no such thing as a Muslim ''Macedonian''. They don't even see themselves as such.
If they are speaking same language as yours as a mothertongue, then how come and why they don't consider themselves as akin to you? It`s because of you extradiate them from your society.

Trust me if everyone around you would call you guys as Ethiopian for more than a century, then you would start to call yourself as Ethiopian sooner or later. Then you wonder why they call themselves as Albanians or Turks and when they do that, you call them as traitors, aliens? What kind of logic is this?



Through this forum i started to appreciate Albanians alot more...
They are proud , dont ask for help and they remember their history... bravo guys...
Why? just because they copy the Greek way and adopt a shallow identity from antiquity? You cant call that as "remembering", it`s just they adopt ancient history for themselves just as you Greeks did before.

Besides that, both Greeks and Albos asks for help from outside. You keep calling Euros for help and Albos calling for help from CIA/USA and sometimes asking for Turkey`s help just as the fake news case here.

[Rron]

edit

[Midori]

Why? If they are becoming traitors just because they are muslims, then you are a traitor more than them because you are dreaming about Serbian dominance upon your country. They can only be as traitorous like you if they are dreaming about Albanian or Turkish dominance. If they are not, then i think you are more harmful to your own society.


Serbian dominance? Lol no, it's not like that. I'm not a Serbophile but a Yugonostalgic, there is a difference between these 2. I see not only Serbs, but also Croats, Bosnians, Montenegrins and Slovenes as our brothers and I believe that nationalistic scum like the Chetniks ruined our country and sense of unity.

[Onur]

Serbian dominance? Lol no, it's not like that. I'm not a Serbophile but a Yugonostalgic, there is a difference between these 2. I see not only Serbs, but also Croats, Bosnians, Montenegrins and Slovenes as our brothers and I believe that nationalistic scum like the Chetniks ruined our country and sense of unity.
Then you don't know the history of Yugoslavia and how it`s founded.

Yes, they are your brothers, i agree to that but you all were under chetnik dominance during whole Yugoslavia. Yes, chetniks was not just popped out from their nests in 1990s but they were already there since the beginning.

For example, do you know how many Croat prominent figures has been assassinated just because they were against the Yugo idea during the creation of Yugoslavia? Do you know how many people who were against the Serbian dominance has been killed? Or do you know how many Macedonians has been Serbianized by the chetnik politicians?

It appears like you don't know anything at all but just naively dreaming about Yugoslavia days.

[Midori]

Then you don't know the history of Yugoslavia and how it`s founded.

Yes, they are your brothers, i agree to that but you all were under chetnik dominance during whole Yugoslavia. Yes, chetniks was not just popped out from their nests in 1990s but they were already there since the beginning.

For example, do you know how many Croat prominent figures has been assassinated just because they were against the Yugo idea during the creation of Yugoslavia? Do you know how many people who were against the Serbian dominance has been killed? It appears like you don't know at all.

Yes I know all that. Many Macedonians were killed too because of that reason. It's not like I'm happy because of that, but it was for the good of Yugoslavia. It's sad that our country failed at the end despite all that :( I guess we can still hope that one day we'll be united again like it should be.

[Pecheneg]

They do not understand that turks got very few altaian descent,even fewer than romanians,(who seems to have most in Europe )
http://c1206.hizliresim.com/y/4/7gfk5.jpg (http://*******/c25MCx)

Turks 7% mongoloid
Romanians ~1-2% mongoloid. (because of Kumans, Pecheneg, Uz etc. various Turkic invaders of the region)

there is no such an altaic marker. Seljuk Turks were max. 20% mongoloid. Their descendants (Oghuz Turks) > Azerbaijan (transcaucasia) 7%, Turks (anatolia) 7%, Turkmens (central asia) 15% mongoloid.
and you Romanians have 0% roman input. not even 1%.

compare east asian admixture of the Turks and romanians.
http://c1206.hizliresim.com/y/4/7gdu4.png (http://*******/c25MCx)

Russians and Finns are most Mongoloid europeans (6-7% mongoloid) not romanians.
http://c1206.hizliresim.com/y/4/7gfrl.png (http://*******/c25MCx)

[poiuytrewq0987]

Yes I know all that. Many Macedonians were killed too because of that reason. It's not like I'm happy because of that, but it was for the good of Yugoslavia. It's sad that our country failed at the end despite all that :( I guess we can still hope that one day we'll be united again like it should be.

Yugonostalgiaism is stupid, and even more stupid if a Macedonian is Yugonostalgic. Tito only did one good thing and that was the stopping of forced Serbianization of Macedonia but he made it worse when he started to invent history when we are really just Bulgarians forced into Yugoslavia abomination. Bulgaria should have been allowed to keep Macedonia and Western Thrace like they were allowed to keep Southern Dobrudja. :tsk:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/Map_of_Bulgaria_during_WWII.png/800px-Map_of_Bulgaria_during_WWII.png

[Midori]

^You used to be a Yugonostalgic too... I see you've changed your opinion :(

[Maddy]

I just found out the old PM of Turkey has the same last name as me (but spelled in a different way)....does that mean I'm no longer allowed on this forum? Lol...

[Nurzat]

fake news

[poiuytrewq0987]

^You used to be a Yugonostalgic too... I see you've changed your opinion :(

It was stupid then, still stupid now. We should be working towards the reversal of our fortunes in the Balkan wars and join Bulgaria than support Serbophilism or retarded Macedonism. We are still 1.3 million strong in Vardar Macedonia. We would be better off with Bulgaria than as a separate state. The Albanian problem would disappear nearly instanteously since we would have immediate support of 6 million brothers just across the barely existent border and their 350,000 strong army.

[safinator]

It was stupid then, still stupid now. We should be working towards the reversal of our fortunes in the Balkan wars and join Bulgaria than support Serbophilism or retarded Macedonism. We are still 1.3 million strong in Vardar Macedonia. We would be better off with Bulgaria than as a separate state. The Albanian problem would disappear nearly instanteously since we would have immediate support of 6 million brothers just across the barely existent border and their 350,000 strong army.
You change your ideas faster than i change my boxers :laugh:

[iNird]

You should also consider that for any muslim in Kosova or Macedonia, it`s possible to adopt Turkish, Albanian, Macedonian or Bosnian identity because most of them have Turkish, Albanian, Bosnian ancestors at some point and some even have ancestors from all these groups each.


This is going a bit too far. Yes we are similar in the Balkans (along with the Christians) but there are still differences in phenotypes, culture, etc. I wouldn't go as far to call it a mis-mash as you are claiming or claiming people identify as something because their ancestors might have "x" background. That's being a bit simplistic and I don't think it is correct. It has much more to do with politics than that.


Also no one prevents any Albo in Turkey to learn and speak Albanian. They are free to do whatever they want. We have many politicians, mayors and other prominent figures in Turkey with Albanian descent. They are not getting discriminated here in any case.


Well like I said the state does not do anything to support their culture. And Albanians do not get discriminated in Turkey most likely because they are Turks first, Muslim 2nd and somewhere along the lines they are Albanians. If Albanians wanted more general rights, I don't think Turks would be so open to the idea. And I don't think it's in Turkey's best interest to offer Albanian or any other groups minority rights either for the well being of it's state. But Kosova has in place state institutions to preserve the Turkish identity. Turkey does not do the same for Albanians. That is my main point towards your "assimilation" claim.


It`s just i don't know why you are trying to copy the Greek way by falsely identifying yourselves with shallow people from antiquity. This is just absurd and you don't need that at all. You are fine as you are and you don't need to connect yourself with unknown things from antiquity.


Well it's part of our history. What are we supposed to not search for any deeper connections and just assume we have remained status-quo? The difference is our state policies do not revolve around these claims. That is the most important part. We don't make claims on lands because some dude died there in 1389. We don't build statues in masses to prove we are ancient. We don't put claims on everything from antiquity.



Well, maybe thats the case but like i told you, even if they adopt Turkish way of life, most of them aware of their own identities. They proudly express their Bosniak, Albanian identities if they want and not a single Turk are getting disturbed by that if they do so.


Yes because they are Turks first and "x" background afterwards. If these groups wanted more minority rights and thought of themselves as their "x" background first, the turks would most likely be telling them to go back to their countries. They are accepted because they have conformed and have integrated into Turkish society.

[morski]

It was stupid then, still stupid now. We should be working towards the reversal of our fortunes in the Balkan wars and join Bulgaria than support Serbophilism or retarded Macedonism. We are still 1.3 million strong in Vardar Macedonia. We would be better off with Bulgaria than as a separate state. The Albanian problem would disappear nearly instanteously since we would have immediate support of 6 million brothers just across the barely existent border and their 350,000 strong army.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but currently the Bulgarian army cannot even occupy all the seats in the national stadium Vasil Levski in Sofia.:)

[Onur]

This is going a bit too far. Yes we are similar in the Balkans (along with the Christians) but there are still differences in phenotypes, culture, etc. I wouldn't go as far to call it a mis-mash as you are claiming or claiming people identify as something because their ancestors might have "x" background. That's being a bit simplistic and I don't think it is correct. It has much more to do with politics than that.
We cant know the extent of our mixtures but i don't think these hybrid languages created just because of outside influences. I mean, they should have heard these expressions, words and languages from their close or distant family members when they were growing up as a kid. You know, we lived together for about 450-550 years without any border and there was no ghetto neighborhoods during Ottoman era either.


This time i agree with rest of the things you`ve said. If Albanians would demand minority right, most of people here would respond to them like "Go to Albania then". But the thing is, we dont have to give them minority rights here because they are recent immigrants from 1950s but the Turks in Kosova or anywhere else in Balkans are locals, living in there for at least 600 years. Some families in Macedonia have family trees going back to 1400s.

[iNird]

We cant know the extent of our mixtures but i don't think these hybrid languages created just because of outside influences. I mean, they should have heard these expressions, words and languages from their close or distant family members when they were growing up as a kid. You know, we lived together for about 450-550 years without any border and there was no ghetto neighborhoods during Ottoman era either.




Well I'm not a linguist so I can't speak of loan words and/or languages. But many Albanians can trace their roots back (some more than others.) But if you go far back enough you will find something foreign.


This time i agree with rest of the things you`ve said. If Albanians would demand minority right, most of people here would respond to them like "Go to Albania then". But the thing is, we dont have to give them minority rights here because they are recent immigrants from 1950s but the Turks in Kosova or anywhere else in Balkans are locals, living in there for at least 600 years. Some families in Macedonia have family trees going back to 1400s.

To play devil's advocate, what is the cutoff point? Does a group need to be part of the country for 100 years to ask for minority right? I'm not sure, it's a bit subjective.

Seconldy, I doubt these "Turks" in Kosova/Macedonia have roots from Turkey. They are most likely left overs from the Ottoman period.

[Crn Volk]

Do you consider Yugo nostalgics and Serbophils as aliens as these muslim Macedonians? Do you humiliate and despise them as such? OR being Serbophil is OK for you just because they were your last masters and they are christians?

You balkanites are interesting bunch. There are already several new states today from the old Yugoslavia [how many, is it became 10?] and you still tend to divide among yourselves.

You are like a primitive form of microorganism who multiplies by dividing but not by breeding and as you divide more, you tend to develop cancer and start to eat and destroy each other. Then everything starts over again after you cleared up some elements among you. I call you all Balkanites as "Dividius Balkanus Cancerus". A primitive and destructive life form.

But interestingly, we have a mini-Balkans here in Turkey. We have Albos, Macedonians, Bosnians, Montenegrins living among us. They are getting along extremely well within each other. They never fight at all but they love each other and occasionally intermarry. So, like i said before, your current situation is because of false mindstate in balkans due to poisoning from numerous different sources. I don't think the ones in Turkey get along pretty well just because all are muslims. I believe even if a group of christian Serb migrates here, they would surely get along well too due to being far away from poisonous sources.

You also have Kurds who are fighting a separatist war with you. Let's not get selective here.

[Crn Volk]

I'm a Yugonostalgic myself, there is nothing wrong with that. And I repeat, there is no such thing as a Muslim ''Macedonian''. They don't even see themselves as such.

Yes there are Macedonian muslims;

http://www.reka.org.mk/tekst.asp?lang=eng&tekst=4

[Crn Volk]

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but currently the Bulgarian army cannot even occupy all the seats in the national stadium Vasil Levski in Sofia.:)

Thanks to NATO 'reforms'

[Onur]

You also have Kurds who are fighting a separatist war with you. Let's not get selective here.
This is a totally different case.

Macedonian muslims doesn't terrorize you and doesn't trying to create independent state within your state. Kurds are doing that here and yet many people doesn't despise them as much as you despise from your muslim kinsmen. I do despise from Kurds but most people here still doesn't.

If they would terrorize you for 30 years and try to create an islamic state within your state, then your despise towards them would be totally justified and i would agree with you guys.

[Linet]

Well it's part of our history. What are we supposed to not search for any deeper connections and just assume we have remained status-quo? The difference is our state policies do not revolve around these claims. That is the most important part. We don't make claims on lands because some dude died there in 1389. We don't build statues in masses to prove we are ancient. We don't put claims on everything from antiquity.
\.

Really? And who does that?

[Methmatician]

I'm surprised Turkey would support Albania over Macedonia, just doesn't sound like them.

[Hurrem sultana]

I'm surprised Turkey would support Albania over Macedonia, just doesn't sound like them.

the news are fake

[Midori]

I'm surprised Turkey would support Albania over Macedonia, just doesn't sound like them.

Why should it surprise you? Of course they would rather support Albanians than us, we know the reason why.

[Methmatician]

Why should it surprise you? Of course they would rather support Albanians than us, we know the reason why.

Not lately since Macedonia is Turkey's closest friend in the Balkans. They've also invested in Macedonia, so why would they want to see it ravaged?

[Midori]

Not lately since Macedonia is Turkey's closest friend in the Balkans. They've also invested in Macedonia, so why would they want to see it ravaged?

:lol: Nope. They just use us to piss off Greece.

[Methmatician]

:lol: Nope. They just use us to piss off Greece.

http://www.businessturkeytoday.com/pm-invites-turkish-businessmen-to-invest-in-macedonia.html

[Hurrem sultana]

Not lately since Macedonia is Turkey's closest friend in the Balkans. They've also invested in Macedonia, so why would they want to see it ravaged?

Not true really

[Hurrem sultana]

http://www.businessturkeytoday.com/pm-invites-turkish-businessmen-to-invest-in-macedonia.html

They do the same in Bosnia,Albania.That doesn't mean anything

[Linet]

Turkey was ally to Israel and yet they changed policy and in one night they left a great alliance just to play the protectors of their muslim brothers, Palestinians. Till that day they didnt give a damn about them and they wouldnt care less if Palestinians had perish.

At some point Turkey changed priorities and decided to play the card "I am a muslim country and i ll protect all my muslim brothers". I suppose this message was a failed effort to reach the hearts of their muslim Albanian brothers.

[Methmatician]

Turkey was ally to Israel and yet they changed policy and in one night they left a great alliance just to play the protectors of their muslim brothers, Palestinians. Till that day they didnt give a damn about them and they wouldnt care less if Palestinians had perish.

At some point Turkey changed priorities and decided to play the card "I am a muslim country and i ll protect all my muslim brothers". I suppose this message was a failed effort to reach the hearts of their muslim Albanian brothers.

Like Onur said, Turkey doesn't care about Albania.

[Midori]

http://www.businessturkeytoday.com/pm-invites-turkish-businessmen-to-invest-in-macedonia.html

That doesn't mean anything. They don't like us, they're just using us like I mentioned above.

[Linet]

But they care for the Palestinians?...suddently?
Albanians are into Balkans and Turkey always cared for the Balkans...

[Methmatician]

That doesn't mean anything. They don't like us, they're just using us like I mentioned above.

Yes, so wherever their money is (Macedonia), they support.

[Hurrem sultana]

But they care for the Palestinians?...suddently?
Albanians are into Balkans and Turkey always cared for the Balkans...

As far as i have noticed,they don't really have any sympathies towards Albanians.Balkan is all about interest.They might sympathize some muslim groups,but not like we get anything else then big words like "we are brothers" from them

[Linet]

As far as i have noticed,they don't really have any sympathies towards Albanians.Balkan is all about interest.They might sympathize some muslim groups,but not like we get anything else then big words like "we are brothers" from them

I never talked about sympathy but of change of policy.
They left a great alliance with Israel for it...

[Drawing-slim]

Like Onur said, Turkey doesn't care about Albania.

And in albania no one cares about turkey. I grew up in albania and i
Dont even remember ever turkey to come up in conversations, exept "turkish coffee" but never ever as people or culture.

I gew up with albanian culture and italian tv/culture, i known no turkish people in my life and i find it a little wierd reading turkish members talk about albanians with some sort of stupid fullish "competence" today.
I think albanians feel the most destance to turks out of all balkans.
And i say this with cinfidence at least inside albania.
Albanians lean totaly towards italy, everyone in albania speaks italian, knows everything about italy and italian modern day culture, on the other hand turkey seems like a very distand land in the mind of every albanian today.
The mutual respect between the countries will exist however, but as people, total different direction.

No wander i feel much out of place in thus discussion between slavs and turks and greeks, total yellow thieves invaders of my land. Bunch of foreigners..

[Pecheneg]

And in albania no one cares about turkey. I grew up in albania and i
Dont even remember ever turkey to come up in conversations, exept "turkish coffee" but never ever as people or culture.

I gew up with albanian culture and italian tv/culture, i known no turkish people in my life and i find it a little wierd reading turkish members talk about albanians with some sort of stupid fullish "competence" today.
I think albanians feel the most destance to turks out of all balkans.
And i say this with cinfidence at least inside albania.
Albanians lean totaly towards italy, everyone in albania speaks italian, knows everything about italy and italian modern day culture, on the other hand turkey seems like a very distand land in the mind of every albanian today.
The mutual respect between the countries will exist however, but as people, total different direction.

No wander i feel much out of place in thus discussion between slavs and turks and greeks, total yellow thieves invaders of my land. Bunch of foreigners..
that's why hundreds of thousands of Albanians fled to Turkey during the Ottoman Empire and after the Second World War between 1950–1970.

[Rron]

that's why hundreds of thousands of Albanians fled to Turkey during the Ottoman Empire and after the Second World War between 1950–1970.
It was deportation ,an agreement between Yugoslav government and yours.

[Flintlocke]

We've been kicking Turkish ass for ages, here's some examples:



In the beginning of July 1833 the inhabitants of Tepelenë under the leadership of Balil Nesho rose up against the new Ottoman governor Emin Pasha, son of Mehmet Reshit Pasha. The revolt was spread in the nearby regions of Gjirokastër and Delvinë. The Ottoman forces led by Emin Pasha attacked the rebels in the Peshkëpi Pass. Unprepared, the rebels withdrew in the village of Luzat and, when Ottoman forces attacked them there, the Ottomans were soundly defeated. Inspired by the first successes, other regions of Vlorë, Berat and Skrapar, rose up in rebellion under the leadership of Tafil Buzi, Zenel Gjoleka and Çelo Picari. In Berat the inhabitants sieged the castle. In a sign of pacification the Ottoman government evicted Emin Pasha from his post, but the rebellion continued and spread out even more. In September 1833 the castle of Berat surrendered to the rebels. The rebels requests were to have Albanian governors and officials in the rebel districts and to abolish new taxes. Alarmed, the Ottoman government accepted the rebels' requests by nominating Albanian officials in the cities of Berat, Vlorë, Tepelenë, Përmet, and Gjirokastër, and by also declaring an amnesty.

In 10 April 1833 about 4,000 armed Albanians from Shkodër and the surrounding areas entered the city occupying the main market and asking for the abolition of taxes and the application of old privileges granted before by the Sultan to the region. Trying to calm down the rebels, the Turkish governor, Namik Pasha, promised to solve the problems. Inadvertently, in August 1833 he sent a military expedition to push the rebels out of the market which they still possessed. A fierce fighting took place and the Ottoman expedition withdrew. The rebels sent a delegation to Istanbul to ask the Sultan for the replacement of Namik Pasha. While the Albanian delegation was in Istanbul the Ottoman forces under the lead of Namik Pasha sieged the city of Shkodër and started several attacks during a three months period, but the city resisted them. After three months of siege the Ottoman forces withdraw on December 1833. Alarmed by the continuous uprisings, which were also happening in Southern Albania at that time, the Ottoman government accepted the rebel requests and replaced the upopular governor Namik Pasha with another official.

In August 1839 a new uprising took place in Berat. The inhabitants of Berat attacked the Ottoman forces and besieged them in the castle. The rebellion spread out in all the regions of Vlora sandjak. The rebels leaders sent a petition to Sultan Abdul Medjit to have Albanian officials in administration and to put Ismail Pasha, the nephew of Ali Pasha as a general governor. In September 1839 the rebels captured the castle and ones again the Ottoman government postponed the application of reforms in Albania

The capture of Dervish Cara didn't put an end to the rebellion, which continued in the areas of Dibër and İşkodra. The resistance was very strong especially in Dibër under its local leaders. In the fall of 1844, the Ottoman army was concentrated against the rebels in sandjak of Dibër. Ottoman forces led by Rexhep Pasha were defeated by the rebels in the field of Mavrovë. The rebels in the sandjak of Dibër were led from Sheh Mustafa Zerqani. In a meeting in November 1844 they declared that the old autonomy of Dibër was not to be touched. The rebel army led by Cen Leka tried to stop the advancing Ottoman army led by Hayredin Pasha. The Ottoman commander declared again an amnesty, the abolishment of the new taxes and the postponement of the recruitment process which would become voluntary in the future. The greatest resistance happened in the Battle of Gjuricë, which lasted for five days. According to the report of a French diplomat in Yanina even women and children participated in it. The Ottoman army suffered a great number of loses but due to the great superiority in numbers and armaments succeeded in forcing the rebels to leave the field of battle. The reprisals from the Ottoman army forced a large number of people to leave their houses. Although the rebellion was crushed, the Ottoman government postponed the application of Tanzimat for the sandjak of Dibër and Shkodër. Dervish Cara together with other local leaders was sentenced to death, but this punishment was later transformed into a lifetime sentence. The song on Hayredin Pasha remembering the battle of Gjuricë is famous among Albanians and continues to be sung even nowadays.

Albanian peasants in southern Albania reacted to the actions of Ottoman administration and in June 1847, their representatives met in Mesaplik. In a memorandum sent to the Turkish sultan they declared that they would not send soldiers in the regular army, would not pay the new taxes and would also not accept the new administration

The insurgents created a committee with Zenel Gjoleka as its leader. When the new Ottoman administration tried to gather the new taxes in Kuç, the peasants went into open rebellion in July 1847. 500 men led by Zenel Gjoleka marched toward Delvinë and liberated the city. In a short period of time the uprising expanded in all Vlorë region, Chameria, Përmet and especially in Mallakastër where the local rebels were led by another notable local leader, Rrapo Hekali.

Isuf bey Vrioni with its men attacked the rebels in the Mallakastër area. Their forces were defeated and Isuf and his brother were captured during the fighting and executed by the rebels. After that the Mallakastër rebels, led by Rrapo Hekali attacked Berat, but having no artillery they could not capture the castle. They continued the siege without attacking the castle. At the same time, the rebels led by Gjoleka and Çelo Picari defeated an Ottomand force coming from Ioannina. The Gjoleka men also attacked Gjirokastër and kept its castle under siege. The Porte was alarmed by the news and a relief force of 3000 men under Shahin bey Kosturi, was sent from Thessaly, against the rebels in Gjirokastër, but Kosturi and his forces were also defeated by the forces of Gjoleka. Gjoleka also tried to have some cooperation and negotiated with the Greek government of Ioannis Kolettis, but with little success. A new Ottoman army of 5000 men was sent from Ioannina against Gjoleka. With a force of 1500 men Gjoleka was able to defeat again the Ottoman forces in the Battle of Dholan in 28 August 1847.

At the same time some 15,000 Ottoman forces under the Turkish marshal Mehmet Reshit Pasha were sent from Manastir to relieve the siege of Berat. In Ohrid their forces were summoned by other 6,000 men. The Ottoman forces attacked the forces of Rrapo Hekali based in the city of Berat and at the same time the Turkish garrison in the castle attacked them from behind. Albanian forces left the siege and withdrew in Mallakastër. From Berat, the Ottoman army tried to enter to the heart of the rebellion, the Kurvelesh region, from the Kuç pass where Gjoleka forces were concentrated. They once again resisted the Ottoman forces. At the same time other Ottoman forces attacked Kurvelesh from the Mesaplik region and another Ottoman column disembarked in the Himara region encircling the forces of Gjoleka. Even under these circumstances Gjoleka men resisted. Seeing the tough resistance, Mehmed Reshid Pasha declared an amnesty and invited all the leaders to met him in Zhulat village. Some 85 men who believed his words and came to the place of meeting (among whom the local leader Hodo Nivica and some other minor leaders), were captured. After that the organised resistance was no longer possible and Albanian forces were divided in small ceta. Ottoman forces entered the regions of uprising and thousands of men were arrested and deported, whereas Rrapo Hekali was poisoned in the prison of Manastir on December 30, 1847. Gjoleka with a small group of fighters retreated to Greece, which ended the uprising.

New taxes levied in the early months of 1910 led to Isa Boletini's activity to convince Albanian leaders who had already been involved in a 1909 uprising to try another revolt against the Ottoman Empire. The Albanian attacks on the Ottomans in Priştine (now Pristina) and Ferizovik (now Uroševac), the killing of the Ottoman commander in İpek (now Peć), and the insurgents' blocking of the railway to Skopje at the Kačanik Pass led to the Ottoman government's declaration of martial law in the area.

Until August 1912 rebels managed to gain control over whole Kosovo vilayet (including Novi Pazar, Sjenica, Priština and even Skopje), part of Scutari Vilayet (including Elbasan, Përmet, Leskovik and Konitsa in Janina Vilayet and Debar in Monastir Vilayet.

The Battle of Deçiq marked the beginning of the turning point for Albanian liberty. It was in this battle that the Flag of Albania was raised for the first time after 442 years of Ottoman occupation. Before this battle, the Albanian flag was last flown in 1480, when the Castle of Shkodra had fallen to the Turks

The main cause to the battle came from the disrespect of the Ottoman government on the Albanian people. The Albanian highlanders (Malësorët) were tricked by the Young Turks. The Turks promised them independence and freedom only if the Albanians disarmed their weapons. The Albanians trusted the Turks, thinking they would imply the freedom that they longed hoped for. Instead, after the disarming, the Turks started to oppress them like never before.

The backstabbing actions committed by the Turks only infuriated the Albanians and led them to a state of seeking revenge. The highlanders decided to wage a battle against the "Young Turk" regime led by the infamous leader himself, Shefqet Turgut Pasha. The Albanians, on the other hand, had their own leaders named Ded Gjo Luli Dedvukaj, from the Hoti tribe, and Sokol Baci Ivezaj, from the Gruda tribe. This very battle happened to determine the independence for the region of Malësia, as well the spark to Albanian Independence. The number of soldiers of both combating parties are unknown, but both were indicated in the mid-thousands. It was more likely that the Turks had more soldiers.

The main portion of the battle took place in Koplik (Albania), where the Malësors went against thousands of Turks. Koplik is the largest town in Malësia, right across the border with Montenegro is Tuzi. During the battle, the women and children were sent to the dark woods within Malësia to keep away from the battle scene and protection from any wandering Turks.

As the fighting proceeded, both armies decided to move north into the town of Tuzi, where the battle ended. It was in this town, where the Albanian flag was raised on the mountain top of Deciq, claiming the victory. The outcome to this long battle was in favor of the Albanians. Although a large number of Albanians died that day, they still managed to claim victory from the Ottomans.

[Drawing-slim]

We are the most distant from turks then any other balkan people.
Unlike any other balkan country albanians fought turks consistantly but seperately for four five hundred years.
What turks did, they would invade the territory and put in charge the strongest tribe or the toughest albanian family, he would control the area and albanians in the area, no turks ever settled or mixed with albos.
Unlike greeks and serbs wich the orthodox church was part of the ottoman empire, was given alot of power seat next to under sultan..

Thats why historicall facts speak for themselves, turks hated us the most punished us the most by denying schools on our laguage and also edmired us the most which explains the story of skenderbeu/kastrioti and albanian grand viziers.

[Onur]

Unlike any other balkan country albanians fought turks consistantly but seperately for four five hundred years.

Thats why historicall facts speak for themselves, turks hated us the most punished us the most by denying schools on our laguage and also edmired us the most which explains the story of skenderbeu/kastrioti and albanian grand viziers.
What are you talking about, who fought you for 500 years? Who hated from you or admired you? Is that what they teach you in there? This is really what you guys believe?

Albanians were never important enough to be hated or never strong enough to fight with or never good enough to be admired by us. You were mere unimportance just like today.

[Rron]

What are you talking about, who fought you for 500 years? Who hated from you or admired you? Is that what they teach you in there? This is really what you guys believe?

Albanians were never important enough to be hated or never strong enough to fight with or never good enough to be admired by us. You were mere unimportance just like today.
What is your problem , you must know that all time we fought against you, are you denying that ?
And if we were such not important then why sulltan himself came in Kruja in your failed attempts to occupy the castle, ,mate for 30 years Gjergj Kastrioti managed to kick you from our land, so 10000 Albanians keep away from Albania the strongest empire of the time.

[Flintlocke]

Or that the greatest Sultan in history, Suleiman, personally led 150,000 troops in the area of Laberia and the great conqueror of Hungary, Austria, Iran was humiliated and signed a peace treaty with the Labs and Himarjots.

[Aces High]

I never talked about sympathy but of change of policy.
They left a great alliance with Israel for it...

The basis of that fallout was the massive and i mean fucking massive gas fields found in the med between Cyprus and Israel.
Turkey got elbowed out of the $poli$.
They thought they had some dort of say in the bargain becuase they hold half of Cyprus.

[Kanuni]

Onur is just a macir>which means Balkan newcomer to Turkey.By the time of Ottoman Empire his father was a Bulgarian shepherd.He is just a worthless troll who wants to put oil in every thread and acts as his grandfather was the Sultan himself.

His knowledge of history is biased as fuck.

[Pecheneg]

We've been kicking Turkish ass for ages, here's some examples:



In the beginning of July 1833 the inhabitants of Tepelenë under the leadership of Balil Nesho rose up against the new Ottoman governor Emin Pasha, son of Mehmet Reshit Pasha. The revolt was spread in the nearby regions of Gjirokastër and Delvinë. The Ottoman forces led by Emin Pasha attacked the rebels in the Peshkëpi Pass. Unprepared, the rebels withdrew in the village of Luzat and, when Ottoman forces attacked them there, the Ottomans were soundly defeated. Inspired by the first successes, other regions of Vlorë, Berat and Skrapar, rose up in rebellion under the leadership of Tafil Buzi, Zenel Gjoleka and Çelo Picari. In Berat the inhabitants sieged the castle. In a sign of pacification the Ottoman government evicted Emin Pasha from his post, but the rebellion continued and spread out even more. In September 1833 the castle of Berat surrendered to the rebels. The rebels requests were to have Albanian governors and officials in the rebel districts and to abolish new taxes. Alarmed, the Ottoman government accepted the rebels' requests by nominating Albanian officials in the cities of Berat, Vlorë, Tepelenë, Përmet, and Gjirokastër, and by also declaring an amnesty.

In 10 April 1833 about 4,000 armed Albanians from Shkodër and the surrounding areas entered the city occupying the main market and asking for the abolition of taxes and the application of old privileges granted before by the Sultan to the region. Trying to calm down the rebels, the Turkish governor, Namik Pasha, promised to solve the problems. Inadvertently, in August 1833 he sent a military expedition to push the rebels out of the market which they still possessed. A fierce fighting took place and the Ottoman expedition withdrew. The rebels sent a delegation to Istanbul to ask the Sultan for the replacement of Namik Pasha. While the Albanian delegation was in Istanbul the Ottoman forces under the lead of Namik Pasha sieged the city of Shkodër and started several attacks during a three months period, but the city resisted them. After three months of siege the Ottoman forces withdraw on December 1833. Alarmed by the continuous uprisings, which were also happening in Southern Albania at that time, the Ottoman government accepted the rebel requests and replaced the upopular governor Namik Pasha with another official.

In August 1839 a new uprising took place in Berat. The inhabitants of Berat attacked the Ottoman forces and besieged them in the castle. The rebellion spread out in all the regions of Vlora sandjak. The rebels leaders sent a petition to Sultan Abdul Medjit to have Albanian officials in administration and to put Ismail Pasha, the nephew of Ali Pasha as a general governor. In September 1839 the rebels captured the castle and ones again the Ottoman government postponed the application of reforms in Albania

The capture of Dervish Cara didn't put an end to the rebellion, which continued in the areas of Dibër and İşkodra. The resistance was very strong especially in Dibër under its local leaders. In the fall of 1844, the Ottoman army was concentrated against the rebels in sandjak of Dibër. Ottoman forces led by Rexhep Pasha were defeated by the rebels in the field of Mavrovë. The rebels in the sandjak of Dibër were led from Sheh Mustafa Zerqani. In a meeting in November 1844 they declared that the old autonomy of Dibër was not to be touched. The rebel army led by Cen Leka tried to stop the advancing Ottoman army led by Hayredin Pasha. The Ottoman commander declared again an amnesty, the abolishment of the new taxes and the postponement of the recruitment process which would become voluntary in the future. The greatest resistance happened in the Battle of Gjuricë, which lasted for five days. According to the report of a French diplomat in Yanina even women and children participated in it. The Ottoman army suffered a great number of loses but due to the great superiority in numbers and armaments succeeded in forcing the rebels to leave the field of battle. The reprisals from the Ottoman army forced a large number of people to leave their houses. Although the rebellion was crushed, the Ottoman government postponed the application of Tanzimat for the sandjak of Dibër and Shkodër. Dervish Cara together with other local leaders was sentenced to death, but this punishment was later transformed into a lifetime sentence. The song on Hayredin Pasha remembering the battle of Gjuricë is famous among Albanians and continues to be sung even nowadays.

Albanian peasants in southern Albania reacted to the actions of Ottoman administration and in June 1847, their representatives met in Mesaplik. In a memorandum sent to the Turkish sultan they declared that they would not send soldiers in the regular army, would not pay the new taxes and would also not accept the new administration

The insurgents created a committee with Zenel Gjoleka as its leader. When the new Ottoman administration tried to gather the new taxes in Kuç, the peasants went into open rebellion in July 1847. 500 men led by Zenel Gjoleka marched toward Delvinë and liberated the city. In a short period of time the uprising expanded in all Vlorë region, Chameria, Përmet and especially in Mallakastër where the local rebels were led by another notable local leader, Rrapo Hekali.

Isuf bey Vrioni with its men attacked the rebels in the Mallakastër area. Their forces were defeated and Isuf and his brother were captured during the fighting and executed by the rebels. After that the Mallakastër rebels, led by Rrapo Hekali attacked Berat, but having no artillery they could not capture the castle. They continued the siege without attacking the castle. At the same time, the rebels led by Gjoleka and Çelo Picari defeated an Ottomand force coming from Ioannina. The Gjoleka men also attacked Gjirokastër and kept its castle under siege. The Porte was alarmed by the news and a relief force of 3000 men under Shahin bey Kosturi, was sent from Thessaly, against the rebels in Gjirokastër, but Kosturi and his forces were also defeated by the forces of Gjoleka. Gjoleka also tried to have some cooperation and negotiated with the Greek government of Ioannis Kolettis, but with little success. A new Ottoman army of 5000 men was sent from Ioannina against Gjoleka. With a force of 1500 men Gjoleka was able to defeat again the Ottoman forces in the Battle of Dholan in 28 August 1847.

At the same time some 15,000 Ottoman forces under the Turkish marshal Mehmet Reshit Pasha were sent from Manastir to relieve the siege of Berat. In Ohrid their forces were summoned by other 6,000 men. The Ottoman forces attacked the forces of Rrapo Hekali based in the city of Berat and at the same time the Turkish garrison in the castle attacked them from behind. Albanian forces left the siege and withdrew in Mallakastër. From Berat, the Ottoman army tried to enter to the heart of the rebellion, the Kurvelesh region, from the Kuç pass where Gjoleka forces were concentrated. They once again resisted the Ottoman forces. At the same time other Ottoman forces attacked Kurvelesh from the Mesaplik region and another Ottoman column disembarked in the Himara region encircling the forces of Gjoleka. Even under these circumstances Gjoleka men resisted. Seeing the tough resistance, Mehmed Reshid Pasha declared an amnesty and invited all the leaders to met him in Zhulat village. Some 85 men who believed his words and came to the place of meeting (among whom the local leader Hodo Nivica and some other minor leaders), were captured. After that the organised resistance was no longer possible and Albanian forces were divided in small ceta. Ottoman forces entered the regions of uprising and thousands of men were arrested and deported, whereas Rrapo Hekali was poisoned in the prison of Manastir on December 30, 1847. Gjoleka with a small group of fighters retreated to Greece, which ended the uprising.

New taxes levied in the early months of 1910 led to Isa Boletini's activity to convince Albanian leaders who had already been involved in a 1909 uprising to try another revolt against the Ottoman Empire. The Albanian attacks on the Ottomans in Priştine (now Pristina) and Ferizovik (now Uroševac), the killing of the Ottoman commander in İpek (now Peć), and the insurgents' blocking of the railway to Skopje at the Kačanik Pass led to the Ottoman government's declaration of martial law in the area.

Until August 1912 rebels managed to gain control over whole Kosovo vilayet (including Novi Pazar, Sjenica, Priština and even Skopje), part of Scutari Vilayet (including Elbasan, Përmet, Leskovik and Konitsa in Janina Vilayet and Debar in Monastir Vilayet.

The Battle of Deçiq marked the beginning of the turning point for Albanian liberty. It was in this battle that the Flag of Albania was raised for the first time after 442 years of Ottoman occupation. Before this battle, the Albanian flag was last flown in 1480, when the Castle of Shkodra had fallen to the Turks

The main cause to the battle came from the disrespect of the Ottoman government on the Albanian people. The Albanian highlanders (Malësorët) were tricked by the Young Turks. The Turks promised them independence and freedom only if the Albanians disarmed their weapons. The Albanians trusted the Turks, thinking they would imply the freedom that they longed hoped for. Instead, after the disarming, the Turks started to oppress them like never before.

The backstabbing actions committed by the Turks only infuriated the Albanians and led them to a state of seeking revenge. The highlanders decided to wage a battle against the "Young Turk" regime led by the infamous leader himself, Shefqet Turgut Pasha. The Albanians, on the other hand, had their own leaders named Ded Gjo Luli Dedvukaj, from the Hoti tribe, and Sokol Baci Ivezaj, from the Gruda tribe. This very battle happened to determine the independence for the region of Malësia, as well the spark to Albanian Independence. The number of soldiers of both combating parties are unknown, but both were indicated in the mid-thousands. It was more likely that the Turks had more soldiers.

The main portion of the battle took place in Koplik (Albania), where the Malësors went against thousands of Turks. Koplik is the largest town in Malësia, right across the border with Montenegro is Tuzi. During the battle, the women and children were sent to the dark woods within Malësia to keep away from the battle scene and protection from any wandering Turks.

As the fighting proceeded, both armies decided to move north into the town of Tuzi, where the battle ended. It was in this town, where the Albanian flag was raised on the mountain top of Deciq, claiming the victory. The outcome to this long battle was in favor of the Albanians. Although a large number of Albanians died that day, they still managed to claim victory from the Ottomans.

i've removed my post.
for the sake of my nice albanian friends in Turkey.

[Onur]

interestingly Albanians are most agressive balkan people in this forum, even more agressive than bulgarians and serbians. guess why?
Inferiority complex usually causes such symptoms

Unfortunately balkanites are like that. Albanians with their inferiority complex, Bulgarians denying everything, Greeks with their arrogance, Serbians with their fantasies and so on.

They all have one common thing tough;
All of them are totally disconnected from both historical and present realities.

[Sultan Suleiman]

I never talked about sympathy but of change of policy.
They left a great alliance with Israel for it...

Because Israelis illegally boarded their ships and killed their citizens. :rolleyes:

[Drawing-slim]

What are you talking about, who fought you for 500 years? Who hated from you or admired you? Is that what they teach you in there? This is really what you guys believe?

Albanians were never important enough to be hated or never strong enough to fight with or never good enough to be admired by us. You were mere unimportance just like today.You just prove my point why we are the most distant people from turks with the least connected as people compare to other balkanians.
As far as us having inferiority complex is a sad failed etempt on your part joker turko buddy (and i'm gone be gentle..)

This proves why we fought the turks more consistantly then any other balkanians, but seprately by tribes etc
After skenderbeu turks could have crushed us but atacks at diferent sites and
times from albanian tribes maded anoying and expensive for turks due to albanian undesireble no roads for a big crushing army to march to that would coast sultan money and men just so another atack would accure somewhere else in albania.
That proves my theory why you guys are total onkown distant people to us...
Unlike serbia and greece that you ottomans would settle and even intermarry
albania was indeed undesireble terrain for conquers to go fight let alone settle amongst us

its totally irrelavent what you think or say, sultan himself edmired us, out nature of consistant resistence while serbs and greeks were easy to deal with.

[Queen B]

They all have one common thing tough;
All of them are totally disconnected from both historical and present realities.
Said the Turkish citizen who never dared to reply to my documents :rotfl:

[Pecheneg]

You just prove my point why we are the most distant people from turks with the least connected as people compare to other balkanians.
As far as us having inferiority complex is a sad failed etempt on your part joker turko buddy (and i'm gone be gentle..)

This proves why we fought the turks more consistantly then any other balkanians, but seprately by tribes etc
After skenderbeu turks could have crushed us but atacks at diferent sites and
times from albanian tribes maded anoying and expensive for turks due to albanian undesireble no roads for a big crushing army to march to that would coast sultan money and men just so another atack would accure somewhere else in albania.
That proves my theory why you guys are total onkown distant people to us...
Unlike serbia and greece that you ottomans would settle and even intermarry
albania was indeed undesireble terrain for conquers to go fight let alone settle amongst us

its totally irrelavent what you think or say, sultan himself edmired us, out nature of consistant resistence while serbs and greeks were easy to deal with.
Good, because no one in Turkey wants a blood-relationship with albanians, believe me. no one.
But here, in Turkey, most of the albanian immigrants consider themselves "Turkish" instead of great albanian heritage.

[Rron]

Good, because no one in Turkey wants a blood-relationship with albanians, believe me. no one.
But here, in Turkey, most of the albanian immigrants consider themselves "Turkish" instead of great albanian heritage.
Ok thats good , now can you stop with your low brow posts seriously.
Or at last if you dont have anything smart to say just avoid conversation ,or im going to unsubscribe myself from this thread, i dont want everytime when i take a look to my control panel appear posts which are nothing more than stupid appearance.

[safinator]

Good, because no one in Turkey wants a blood-relationship with albanians, believe me. no one.


Wow, that's wonderful.
I hope things continue to stay like this, Albanians should pollute their blood.

[StonyArabia]

You also have Kurds who are fighting a separatist war with you. Let's not get selective here.

The Kurds are nothing, they are on the leash of the Anglo-American and Zionists hence why they can get some part of northern Iraq, but this about it. Without Anglo-American and Zionist support they are a joke and a laughable one.

[Minesweeper]

can't you understand? i don't give a fuck to you.
there are huge differences between albanians of TA and albanians in my country. You are blind racialists, trying to prove how european/white you are.
you think "insulting Turks" is a great way to become european/white.
i have many friends of albanian origin in my country and i'm ok with them, but you and your stupid "skanderbeg" fairy tales, whiteness obsessions, stories that how albanians fought bravely against Ottoman warriors etc..... Turks don't even care that how many centuries they ruled albania.
but i don't blame you for this, racism is illness, it can fuck best friendships, brotherhoods etc.
now, go back to your illyrian whiteness threads and don't forget, Turks don't give a fuck to you and your little country.

A finger in the eye!

Being extremely anti-Turkish and an atheist/Christian is a rule for every Albanian on these European anthro boards.

Situation on the field, however, is different. Recent Albanian rally in Skopje proves it like nothing before!

[StonyArabia]

Anyways the Kurds are not a threat thankfully. If they get their state it would be third world hellhole.

[StonyArabia]

How come they can be anti-Turkish while we shared the administration of the Ottoman empire with them for centuries is beyond my comprehension. I mean, they ruled in Kosova, part of Macedonia, whole Albania, Egypt, parts of today`s Iraq, Syria only because us. They ruled in these places because we let them to. We also built most of the cities in Albania, including their capital then we left them alone and they created their own state in 1912 without much conflict.

All the pasha's in Iraq were of Albanian origins.

[Panopticon]

can't you understand? i don't give a fuck to you.
there are huge differences between albanians of TA and albanians in my country. You are blind racialists, trying to prove how european/white you are.
you think "insulting Turks" is a great way to become european/white.
i have many friends of albanian origin in my country and i'm ok with them, but you and your stupid "skanderbeg" fairy tales, whiteness obsessions, stories that how albanians fought bravely against Ottoman warriors etc..... Turks don't even care that how many centuries they ruled albania.
but i don't blame you for this, racism is illness, it can fuck best friendships, brotherhoods etc.
now, go back to your illyrian whiteness threads and don't forget, Turks don't give a fuck to you and your little country.

I don't have anything Turks and I have close Turkish friends. I don't care about whiteness, racism, etc. but that doesn't mean that I can't point out historical truths. I haven't really seen anyone insult Turks, all I can see is different views on history.

That you can't accept even as widely accepted historical figures such as Skanderbeg and the history around him tells a lot. Skanderbeg's great record against the Turks has little to do with fairytales.

You guys are doing the exact same thing you accuse us of doing. In your pov, everything must have been a Turkish steamroll over any opponent and nothing else is acceptable.


A finger in the eye!

Being extremely anti-Turkish and an atheist/Christian is a rule for every Albanian on these European anthro boards.

Situation on the field, however, is different. Recent Albanian rally in Skopje proves it like nothing before!

I don't think we need to prove our worth to others by portraying ourselves as anti-Turkish atheists/Christians. Can't you accept that we're atheist? I haven't seen any Albanian bragging about how Christian they are. We're not the ones who equate faith with Europeanness/whiteness. In most cases, people have unsubstantiated beliefs about us and we try to disprove that. We have to fit into your prejudiced views and if we don't accept that we must have some complex.

[Onur]

Turks don't even care that how many centuries they ruled albania.

now, go back to your illyrian whiteness threads and don't forget, Turks don't give a fuck to you and your little country.
You know what Pecheneg, i can even say that Albanians lived in much better conditions than Turks of Anatolia in Ottoman era cuz there was both ethnic and religious tensions in Anatolia in the last decades of Ottoman Empire but Albania had none of these problems. While millions of Turkish people died in that time, Albanians was enjoying their privileged conditions in Macedonia and ruling in Kosova and Albania however they like.

These are ungrateful people. Without Turks and and without the privileges they received from the Ottoman empire, all Albanians today would be hellenes of Epirus and all of them here would be discussing about how they are the direct descendants of ancient Greeks of Epirus like their Arvanite kinsmen does in Greece today.

Albanians was the second behind Bosnians in terms of most privileged non-Turkish citizens of Ottoman Empire. Beside Turkish ones, the number of Bosnian viziers was highest and second was Albanians.

[Minesweeper]

I don't think we need to prove our worth to others by portraying ourselves as anti-Turkish atheists/Christians. Can't you accept that we're atheist? I haven't seen any Albanian bragging about how Christian they are. We're not the ones who equate faith with Europeanness/Whiteness. In most cases, people have unsubstantiated beliefs about us and we try to disprove that. Wehave to fit into your prejudiced views and if we don't accept that we must have some complex.


True, faith is not connected with whiteness, but being a Muslim is a problem if you want to present yourself as a ''worthy European'' and if you proudly wave Saudi and Islamist flags on national rallies it just makes it worse. Especially for online warriors who have to deal with compromising material. ;)

[Panopticon]

How come they can be anti-Turkish while we shared the administration of the Ottoman empire with them for centuries is beyond my comprehension. I mean, they ruled in Kosova, part of Macedonia, whole Albania, Egypt, parts of today`s Iraq, Syria only because us. They ruled in these places because we let them to. We also built most of the cities in Albania, including their capital then we left them alone and they created their own state in 1912 without much conflict.

So the Ottomans just gave some Albanians administrative positions just like that for no reason? Those Albanians weren't in those positions because of charity.

You didn't build many cities in Albania, Tirana is certainly not one of them. I have already disproved that, but you just won't listen to reason and facts.

Our independence came through due to a series of revolts, mr. Turkocentric ignoramus.

[Panopticon]

True, faith is not connected with whiteness, but being a Muslim is a problem if you want to present yourself as a ''worthy European''

Religion has nothing to do with whether you're European or not.

"Eu·ro·pe·an (yr-pn)
n.
1. A native or inhabitant of Europe.
2. A person of European descent.
adj.
Of or relating to Europe or its peoples, languages, or cultures."

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/European


and if you proudly wave Saudi and Islamist flags on national rallies it just makes it worse, especially for online warriors. ;)

There were a few waving Saudi flags, a very few among a large crowd. You guys tend to take out the worst representatives among us and portray them as being the rule.

[Minesweeper]

No it doesn't, if you are atheist, pagan, Christian, etc. But it is a problem if you are a Muslim. Do I have to explain why? It's quite simple. It's not just islam, it's your oriental nature that makes you nothing more than a primitive Turko/Islamic leftover in the Balkans.

You guys even managed to unite Serbs and Croats on TA in hatred against you, what an achievement!

[Padre Organtino]

Islam is a Middle Eastern religion. Anyone who adopts it seriously will be influenced by ME culture. This is why North Caucasus is for example much less alike Russia proper than say Georgia or Armenia despite higher racial proximity to Slavs and North Euros in general.

[StonyArabia]

Islam is a Middle Eastern religion. Anyone who adopts it seriously will be influenced by ME culture. This is why North Caucasus is for example much less alike Russia proper than say Georgia or Armenia despite higher racial proximity to Slavs and North Euros in general.

That's true. North Caucasians are the closest thing to Europeans outside of Europe, but their adoption of Islam, and their late paganism did not enable Russification or Slavization. With Islam came Iranic, Turkic and even Arabic influences no doubt, which can be seen in the food, marriage, and various other cultural practices.

[gossimer]

Balkans are like one big denial.


"We are united, though we hate each other. We are united, but we are independent. We are culturally unique, but we really got all our influences from one or two empires in the past which we now deny but at the same time don't deny when presented with facts."

[Panopticon]

No it doesn't, if you are atheist, pagan, Christian, etc. But it is a problem if you are a Muslim. Do I have to explain why? It's quite simple. It's not just islam, it's your oriental nature that makes you nothing more than a primitive Turko/Islamic leftover in the Balkans.

In most cases, that primitive culture is European as it stems from old European traditions. Backwards in many cases, but still nothing un-European about it. However, you could eloborate more if you like to.

Oriental cultural influence in Albania can for the most part be summed up in Islam, Oriental loanwords, Baklava, some dresses, etc.; quite superficial and of little meaning and importance. And in many cases, you share them with us as well.


You guys even managed to unite Serbs and Croats on TA in hatred against you, what an achievement!

I care little for rhetoric. Whether Serbs and Croats dislike us or not is not important. That's their problem.


Islam is a Middle Eastern religion. Anyone who adopts it seriously will be influenced by ME culture. This is why North Caucasus is for example much less alike Russia proper than say Georgia or Armenia despite higher racial proximity to Slavs and North Euros in general.

While Christianity isn't a Middle Eastern religion? This argument doesn't hold any water as north Caucasus isn't European in most ways to begin with, Albanians are, however. Northern Caucasus wouldn't have become European if it had more European influences.

Anyway, I can't care for a discussion on who is European and who is not on the basis on some obscure definitions on what an European is.

[safinator]

You two Turks all you do is piss people off, brag about how great you are and immediately attack anyone who claim something good about his people. What are you doing in a European forum anyway?

Sta tsakidia.
Frankly i wouldn't even bother trying to answer to serbo-turkish provocations.

[rashka]

Why were pecheneg and onur banned?

[Grizzly]

Good, because no one in Turkey wants a blood-relationship with albanians, believe me. no one.
But here, in Turkey, most of the albanian immigrants consider themselves "Turkish" instead of great albanian heritage.

Some one tell this idiot that most Western Turks have Albanian, Greek, Serbian and other Balkan blood?

[Dacul]

I think people should remember that now is the year 2012 and turks are a civilized nation.
What it was in the past,it was.
Because I see a lot of useless fights here.
Greatest enemy for balkan nations are some people from US,Turkey is not an enemy.
See that Russia saw this and now they are doing a lot of trade with Turkey.

Go see what happens in US with elites there,they got houses much more expensive that the Queen of UK has,they lead a more luxury life than the Queen of UK,but you know UK got only a queen and she has a lot of duties for the good of UK and she does a lot for the people in UK.
While US got a lot of people with more money than queen of UK who are doing almost nothing for people in US or for the people in the world.
You want to become slaves of these people from US,of this unhuman elite?

This is the method to keep the balkan nations in discord between them so they can rob the balkan nations better after and for other purposes also.

[Pecheneg]

Why were pecheneg and onur banned?
i don't know


Some one tell this idiot that most Western Turks have Albanian, Greek, Serbian and other Balkan blood?
edited.

[safinator]

i don't know
It's all part of the Illuminati conspiracy.

[Linet]

You two Turks all you do is piss people off, brag about how great you are and immediately attack anyone who claim something good about his people. What are you doing in a European forum anyway?

Sta tsakidia.

I didnt even read the posts... but ...
Sta tsakidia caught my eye :rofl_002:

[Pecheneg]

It's all part of the Illuminati conspiracy.
funny.



I didnt even read the posts... but ...
Sta tsakidia caught my eye :rofl_002:
what's that mean?

[Linet]

well...
tsakizo is to break to crash something...
when someone falls down we say tsakistike...like "he killed himself-broke himself"...
so sta tsakidia means that...go and trip, crash...break yourself down :p

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Islam is a Middle Eastern religion. l.

So is Christianity!! .

And Balkans are just a "Christian version of Middleast" ..Lot's of mutual hatred and everyone blames same scapegoat:Turks..

why don't you just use your famous Christian self criticism and soul seach for God's ,Christ's ,Mary's, Holy Ghost's .....whatever sake..and find proper /logical solutions rather than hundredx1 x2 x3 etc.. years of constant whinning..?

[Kanuni]

No it doesn't, if you are atheist, pagan, Christian, etc. But it is a problem if you are a Muslim. Do I have to explain why? It's quite simple. It's not just islam, it's your oriental nature that makes you nothing more than a primitive Turko/Islamic leftover in the Balkans.

You guys even managed to unite Serbs and Croats on TA in hatred against you, what an achievement!

Tards like you take everything on internet seriously,so ofcourse it will be a great achievement.Funny how 18 year old teenagers think that they have the fate of their nations at their hand as if everyone in the forum hold them seriously.They are laughing at you Balkan peasants.I am ok with you,your acts are justified by your age but Onur who is a middle aged troll?I feel pity for him.

[Padre Organtino]

While Christianity isn't a Middle Eastern religion? This argument doesn't hold any water as north Caucasus isn't European in most ways to begin with, Albanians are, however. Northern Caucasus wouldn't have become European if it had more European influences.


It has origins in Middle East but most forms of modern Christianity have evolved in Europe and America. This is why Christian minorities from ME like Assyrians integrate in Europe much better than their Islamic neighbours on average. Religion does not make one European nor it makes one Middle Eastern but it certainly has impact on culture.

[Padre Organtino]

And Balkans are just a "Christian version of Middleast" ..Lot's of mutual hatred and everyone blames same scapegoat:Turks..

why don't you just use your famous Christian self criticism and soul seach for God's ,Christ's ,Mary's, Holy Ghost's .....whatever sake..and find proper /logical solutions rather than hundredx1 x2 x3 etc.. years of constant whinning..?

What whining? I'm fairly irreligious but it's certain that modern Islam is rather primitive and unevolved compared to modern Christianity.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

What whining? I'm fairly irreligious but it's certain that modern Islam is rather primitive and unevolved compared to modern Christianity.

Same religion with minor differences..

[Minesweeper]

Tards like you take everything on internet seriously,so ofcourse it will be a great achievement.Funny how 18 year old teenagers think that they have the fate of their nations at their hand as if everyone in the forum hold them seriously.They are laughing at you Balkan peasants.I am ok with you,your acts are justified by your age but Onur who is a middle aged troll?I feel pity for him.

If you knew me better, you'd know that I was doing my best to avoid these threads. So far I have posted only one post on Albanian section and not a single post on Kosovo section while your 20+ members on TA are constantly on duty in shifts.
Why don't you leave other sections and stick to your own? I don't care what you write there, you don't care what I write here, nobody on this forum does. Problem solved.

[Kanuni]

If you knew me better, you'd know that I was doing my best to avoid these threads. So far I have posted only one post on Albanian section and not a single post on Kosovo section while your 20+ members on TA are constantly on duty in shifts.
Why don't you leave other sections and stick to your own? I don't care what you write there, you don't care what I write here, nobody on this forum does. Problem solved.

I don't care what the other Albanian members write,i don't have a monopoly over them,i barely know them anyway.You are all writing in gangs in this kind of forums and disagree eachother as drunken people.You don't write in the Albanian section but you don't loose the sight to spew your shit everywhere in internet.

I think your buddies started first with their campaign and famous threads of how Albanians are swarthy MENA Wahhabis(for political reasons ofcourse),so you enstrained the others in your OWD.Just stop a second and think,you believe that every sane person would take your compatriot trollings seriously?Frankly we have genetic studies and autosomal testings and break every kind of taxonomy illusions from both Serb and Albanian side.

[Padre Organtino]

Same religion with minor differences..

It's certainly a very different religion which can be easily seen from architecture, daily practices and many other things.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

It's certainly a very different religion which can be easily seen from architecture, daily practices and many other things.

It was my Universtity thesis ,Protestanism ,Puritanism,Calvinism ...etc..so I know a lot about Christianity..anyway..may be we shouldn't argue about it here..seems OT..

[Rron]

If you knew me better, you'd know that I was doing my best to avoid these threads. So far I have posted only one post on Albanian section and not a single post on Kosovo section while your 20+ members on TA are constantly on duty in shifts.
Why don't you leave other sections and stick to your own? I don't care what you write there, you don't care what I write here, nobody on this forum does. Problem solved.
Probably because every thread in your section was/is about Albanians, then it is more than obvious than people would post there in attempts to clarify things ading facts that you guys like to distort things while some reader here have never read about us nor either you and theirs only info are this kind of forums so those albanians which posted there have seen necessary to clarify things, in another hand you cant see any threead in Albanian section which is about serbs .

Also in your previously post you mentioned word primitive , you first must know meaning of word primitive than talking about it, isnt this one of those desperate attempts which reflect your point , beside that Albanians managed to ''unite'' you and Croats like you said earlier, Albanians managed also to ''unite'' Turks and you against us.

[Panopticon]

It has origins in Middle East but most forms of modern Christianity have evolved in Europe and America. This is why Christian minorities from ME like Assyrians integrate in Europe much better than their Islamic neighbours on average. Religion does not make one European nor it makes one Middle Eastern but it certainly has impact on culture.

Since Islam in Europe is considered a non-European religion from the Middle East while Christianity is considered a Europeanized Middle Eastern religion, does this mean that the "Europeans" who took up Islam weren't Europeans to begin with? I doubt that. Truth is, the Islam seen among these European ethnic groups are quite secular and different from that practiced in the Middle East.

Not to mention that you can't change a religion, the scriptures, rules, etc. will still be the same. You're ascribing something that pertains to society and culture to Christian faith even though it does not pertain to Christian thoughts: those cultural traits evolved despite Christianity. The keyword here is secularism: as society drifted further away from Christianity and religion, the closer to modern European society it became. We are were we are today because of secularism, not because of Christianity.

The Catholic church was just as intolerant as modern theocracies are today, Christian Europe was just as intolerant as modern fundamentalist Islamic societies. However, the Catholic church has much less power today than it had before and it is therefore that Europe is so much more progressive. The less power religious institutions have over a society, the less backwards that society will be.

We can be pretty sure that Europe would have been just as backwards as these Islamic societies if Christianity had not been subdued. We already know that this was the case in the past.


As for Christians being able to integrate much better.

Their religion has less of a grip on them, they have lived in societies that were based on fundamental Islam, not fundamental Christianity. So there's an advantage there. When these Christians migrate, they don't take with them the backwards culture of their home countries because they were not part of it. It their societies had been based on fundamentalist Christianity, I'm very sure that they wouldn't integrate as well with society as a whole.

There's also the fact that this is not the way it's perceived by many. Overall views on Christians from Northern Africa are as bad as that of their Muslim compatriots. You also fail to mention the overall very bad image of the Christian Lebanese and that Assyrians, including the Muslims, have a better reputation overall.

[Pecheneg]

Probably because every thread in your section was/is about Albanians,Albanians this Albanians thus, then it is more than obvious than people would post there in attempts to clarify things ading facts that you guys like to distort things while some reader here have never read about us nor either you and theirs only info are this kind of forums so those albanians which posted there have seen necessary to clarify things, in another hand you cant see any threead in Albanian section which is about serbs .

Also in your previously post you mentioned word primitive , you first must know meaning of word primitive than talking about it, isnt this one of those desperate attempts which reflect your point , beside that Albanians managed to ''unite'' you and Croats like you said earlier, Albanians managed also to ''unite'' Turks and you against us.

I didn't forge an alliance with anyone.
i'm not in your imaginary war. Just keep being extreme anti-Turkish to become more european / whiter through people's eyes, just like in this thread.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40096 :clap2:

[Rron]

I didn't forge an alliance with anyone.
i'm not in your imaginary war. Just keep being extreme anti-Turkish to become more european / whiter through people's eyes, just like in this thread.
Who is talking about alliance ?, understand concept of statement .
What is your problem, Horten replied to you well about this in your post exactly with same meaning, so i dont have anything else to add .

[Sturmgewehr]

I didn't forge an alliance with anyone.
i'm not in your imaginary war. Just keep being extreme anti-Turkish to become more european / whiter through people's eyes, just like in this thread.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40096 :clap2:

what u talking about bro????

In front of whose eyes are we trying to pass as European??

You don't even make sense, if u didn't know we are European I think u should burn ur 8th grade diploma cuz u failed in Geography and whoever taught u geography was a shithead.

We are obviously European, we live in Europe, you can't get more European than someone who was born in Europe and whose ancestors have been living in Europe for Eons of times.

That thread was opened by a Mexican pretending to be a Turk, he was a troll and he got banned for trolling.

p.s: all u can see in that thread is that guy's pathetic attempts to make us Equal to Turks, u can read the thread and see he was thoroughly refuted.

[Padre Organtino]

Since Islam in Europe is considered a non-European religion from the Middle East while Christianity is considered a Europeanized Middle Eastern religion, does this mean that the "Europeans" who took up Islam weren't Europeans to begin with? I doubt that. Truth is, the Islam seen among these European ethnic groups are quite secular and different from that practiced in the Middle East.


Europeans have adopted a Levantine religion that was born among Hellenized Semites. It was later altered to a very large extent and by the time Christianity began its march across Europe it has been "codified" by Byzantines.




Not to mention that you can't change a religion, the scriptures, rules, etc. will still be the same. You're ascribing something that pertains to society and culture to Christian faith even though it does not pertain to Christian thoughts: those cultural traits evolved despite Christianity. The keyword here is secularism: as society drifted further away from Christianity and religion, the closer to modern European society it became. We are were we are today because of secularism, not because of Christianity.


Many European norms were influenced by Christianity very strongly. In fact one does not need a lot of time to see how European countries with different forms of Christianity differe from each as they do differ from those non-Christian ones (I mostly mean Nordics by the latter label)



The Catholic church was just as intolerant as modern theocracies are today, Christian Europe was just as intolerant as modern fundamentalist Islamic societies. However, the Catholic church has much less power today than it had before and it is therefore that Europe is so much more progressive. The less power religious institutions have over a society, the less backwards that society will be.

We can be pretty sure that Europe would have been just as backwards as these Islamic societies if Christianity had not been subdued. We already know that this was the case in the past.


Catholic Church accidentally helped the art to flourish, organized Jesuit missions, opened Universities and introduced Scholasticism.



Their religion has less of a grip on them, they have lived in societies that were based on fundamental Islam, not fundamental Christianity. So there's an advantage there. When these Christians migrate, they don't take with them the backwards culture of their home countries because they were not part of it. It their societies had been based on fundamentalist Christianity, I'm very sure that they wouldn't integrate as well with society as a whole.


It's true also for Armenians and Georgians and both (especially the latter) live in "fundamentalist" Christian countries.



There's also the fact that this is not the way it's perceived by many. Overall views on Christians from Northern Africa are as bad as that of their Muslim compatriots. You also fail to mention the overall very bad image of the Christian Lebanese and that Assyrians, including the Muslims, have a better reputation overall.


Assyrians and Christian Lebs have better reputation relative to their Muslim "cousins" though.

[Panopticon]

Europeans have adopted a Levantine religion that was born among Hellenized Semites. It was later altered to a very large extent and by the time Christianity began its march across Europe it has been "codified" by Byzantines.

Arameans had a rather minor Hellenic influence, they were by no means Hellenized Semites. The foundations of Christianity is completely Semitic. For the record, Arabs had as much Hellenic influence, if not more than the Arameans.

European Islam has been "Europeanized" as well. So I consider that a void argument that proves little other than being a curiousity in history.




Many European norms were influenced by Christianity very strongly. In fact one does not need a lot of time to see how European countries with different forms of Christianity differe from each as they do differ from those non-Christian ones (I mostly mean Nordics by the latter label)

Yes, Christianity has had an impact on European society. For the most part rather superficial; for instance, the golden rule.

Here you mention that different forms of Christianity has made different European countries as dissimilar to each other as they are to non-Christian countries. Then what are you even arguing for to begin with? There are great differences inside of Europe as much in between Christians as between non-Christians and Christians as you remark yourself. However, Christians and their differences, which are as large as those of non-Christians, and for some obscure reason are not deemed as reason enough to argue against their "Europeanness" and deem them less European, even though it fits no valid definitions to do so.

You allude to Max Weber's theory of Protestant Ethic and Spirit of Capitalism, which is only testament to how secularism has made Europe progress. Protestantism is a secular religious outlook and it's only natural that its secularism and sobriety has had a positive effect on Europe. And it's yet another testament to yet another negative effect that the Catholic Church has had on European societies.




Catholic Church accidentally helped the art to flourish, organized Jesuit missions, opened Universities and introduced Scholasticism.

The Catholic Church managed to do far more damage than good, it's an institution that is against any kind of progress and always has been. In terms of scientific achievement and contribution, Christianity has much less bragging rights than Islam, we could compare the achievements under the Islamic Golden Age with Christianity under any period.

The Islamic Golden Age would turn out much better, not only were there great scientific, philosophical, art, architectural, etc. contributions and achievements, Islamic Golden Age society as a whole was far more tolerant than contemporary Christian societies and it motivated science, art, philosophy, etc., something which the Catholic Church strictly opposed. What we see in backwards Islamic countries with their theistic societies today is what we have seen with the Catholic Church. As any discussion needs a reference to Galileo: if it had been up to the Catholic Church, the Earth would have been flat.

Unfortunately, The Islamic Golden Age ended and the period after that has been a total catastrophy. We see that this is due to society desecularising. In the same manner, Europe has progressed more and more as it has become more and more secular.




It's true also for Armenians and Georgians and both (especially the latter) live in "fundamentalist" Christian countries.

One stereotype of Armenians includes organized crime. Former Soviets and 2nd worlders generally have a rather poor image in Europe. And I can say that a lot of them are reinforcing that image from my own experiences. That includes a local Georgian woman who probably had a fake Doctorate and could have killed a patient due to a simple mistake; thankfully averted by a nurse.

The general image might not be as poor as with other groups, but it's certainly not positive and there's certain reasons for this.

There are instances in other countries where smaller ethnic groups in Europe with much higher crime rates had a better reputation than larger ethnic groups with lower crime rates. Fact is that the larger, more visible groups are most often the targets of xenophobia. Muslims are often even more visible due to certain cultural aspects like the burqa.

Ultimately, you ignore that people of Muslim background aren't disliked for being Muslim in most of their cases, it's the visibility of them and propensity to crimes. The former you can acredit to Islam, the latter to other aspects. The Pakistanis in Norway have a bad reputation due to propensity to organized crime, not burqas and Islam.

You also ignore that these negative aspects are void in European Muslim countries. Most people don't practice their religion and even the religious ones are in most cases very liberal and tolerant. So whatever holds for non-European Muslims doesn't hold for European Muslims. Our Islam has been Europeanized, if Christianity was corruptable enough for Europe, then so was Islam.

We could also to some extent attribute the overall poor image of Eastern Europeans to Orthodoxy following this reasoning. It has probably had some effect. Yet it's not their Orthodox religion that western Europe dislikes them for.




Assyrians and Christian Lebs have better reputation relative to their Muslim "cousins" though.


(I have already discussed reasons for that above.)

I have never heard of that. I've heard of complaints over both Christian and Muslim behaviour. Reputations have little meaning as well, due to reasons that I have already discussed. And personally, I trust facts and reason more than I trust the feelings of people.

[Padre Organtino]

[FONT="Times New Roman"]Arameans had a rather minor Hellenic influence, they were by no means Hellenized Semites. The foundations of Christianity is completely Semitic. For the record, Arabs had as much Hellenic influence, if not more than the Arameans.


Saudi Arabs? Hardly. The Hellenized Semites were judeans and Arameans living in Europe and adopting Roman lifestyle among whom the Christianity started spreading.




European Islam has been "Europeanized" as well. So I consider that a void argument that proves little other than being a curiousity in history.






Here you mention that different forms of Christianity has made different European countries as dissimilar to each other as they are to non-Christian countries. Then what are you even arguing for to begin with? There are great differences inside of Europe as much in between Christians as between non-Christians and Christians as you remark yourself. However, Christians and their differences, which are as large as those of non-Christians, and for some obscure reason are not deemed as reason enough to argue against their "Europeanness" and deem them less European, even though it fits no valid definitions to do so.


You missed my point. It was an illustration of in impact religion may have. Certainly various branches of Christianity can be far apart each other as the branches of Islam.



You allude to Max Weber's theory of Protestant Ethic and Spirit of Capitalism, which is only testament to how secularism has made Europe progress. Protestantism is a secular religious outlook and it's only natural that its secularism and sobriety has had a positive effect on Europe. And it's yet another testament to yet another negative effect that the Catholic Church has had on European societies.



Once again your criticism is off mark. I never argued about whether Catholocisim or any other form of faith was "good" or "bad" on average. What I pointed out was that your portrayal of Catholicism as an obskurantist dogmatic cult comparable to modern Islam is incorrect. Certainly Protestantism was a step forward fro Northern Europe.




We could also to some extent attribute the overall poor image of Eastern Europeans to Orthodoxy following this reasoning. It has probably had some effect. Yet it's not their Orthodox religion that western Europe dislikes them for.



It's the cultural norms and practices reinforced and supported by Orthodox Church that cause the misunderstanding so yes, at least partly religion does play a role here.



I have never heard of that. I've heard of complaints over both Christian and Muslim behaviour. Reputations have little meaning as well, due to reasons that I have already discussed. And personally, I trust facts and reason more than I trust the feelings of people.

Facts are pretty straightforward. Right-wing Euro parties use Islam as a scapegoat. Islamic rleigious building construction faces great opposition from locals in many parts of Europe and "Muslim" way of dressing is banned in some countries too.

[Lena]

Tards like you take everything on internet seriously,so ofcourse it will be a great achievement.Funny how 18 year old teenagers think that they have the fate of their nations at their hand as if everyone in the forum hold them seriously.They are laughing at you Balkan peasants.I am ok with you,your acts are justified by your age but Onur who is a middle aged troll?I feel pity for him.

You suddenly moved to the States or what :D?

Don't be ridiculous

hints:

rughead; wetback; nigger; spick; dothead and so on... imagine, it all comes from more 'advanced' people than Balkanites are! LMAO

[Kanuni]

You suddenly moved to the States or what :D?

Yes, i moved to Jewmerica.



Don't be ridiculous

hints:

rughead; wetback; nigger; spick; dothead and so on... imagine, it all comes from more 'advanced' people than Balkanites are! LMAO

I have never liked South Slavic humour.

[Lena]

Yes, i moved to Jewmerica.
I have never liked South Slavic humour.

How quickly you're backpaddling from your roots and Balkans :p Hehehe! Typical FOB I'd say :wink

[Panopticon]

Saudi Arabs? Hardly.

They certainly were influenced by Hellenic culture. Both earlier and later on, their culture was influenced by Hellenism.

Progress among the Arabs and the Islamic Golden Age can be partially attributed to Hellenic influence.


The Hellenized Semites were judeans and Arameans living in Europe and adopting Roman lifestyle among whom the Christianity started spreading.

Referring to them as Hellenized Semites is far-fetched. They had been under the same Hellenistic empire as all other Semites. Christian Semites were at this scant in Europe, there were only miniscule communities.

The basis of Christian teachings came from their homeland and were thoroughly Abrahamo-Semitic, however; they didn't adapt it to Roman society. The Hellenization and Romanization of Christianity happened later and it was separate from the true Christian foundation.



You missed my point. It was an illustration of in impact religion may have. Certainly various branches of Christianity can be far apart each other as the branches of Islam.

The starter for this discussion was that Islam is not and cannot be European while this doesn't hold for Christianity. It's therefore that I point out that Christianity also has non-European origins and stems from the exact same Abrahamo-Semitic beliefs.

If Christianity could be "Europeanized", then so could Islam. (Note that we both believe that Christianity has been "Europeanized", our definitions are very different, however. It's rather Secularism that has made both Christianity and Islam in Europe more compatible with society. The less of it, the more progressivity.) " And this is what we see today, both Christianity and Islam in Europe, taking into account only European natives, have been strongly Secularised and therefore become a less negative aspect to society, which is what is defined as "Europeanization".

I don't believe that inherent European characteristics has molded Christianity into something else, I believe that Secular values have. We have seen that Islam outside Europe has had a progressive form, although it has detoriated immensely since then. We have also seen that Christianity has previously had the same appearance as Islam has today.

While the definitions are different, the results are basically the same. This is just semantics. Both religions have taken on a "European" character.

What I really am criticising you for is that you have double-standards. As I have argued, both native European Islam and Christianity has gone under this process of "Europeanization".

The only differences are some very superficial characteristics, superficial characteristics that as you yourself admitted exists in between the different branches of Christianity. However, you still choose to see one (Islam) as incompatible and not possible to "redeem", even though, as I believe, you do realize that these are only superficial characteristics and that everyone can't be the same, something you admit in the case of the different Christian orientations.

You allow some to be "different", but not others. The same principles should apply to everyone.

I have always suspected there to be some underlying mentality behind this argument: that Islam hasn't been Europeanized because of the people belonging to that faith. That could be why most of these people also see Albanians as non-European or less European than others. This is why Christianity could go under the process of "Europeanization" while Islam couldn't, because Europeans never could have become Muslim.

And while there certainly were foreign cultural elements that came with Islam, the Muslims share these with their neighbouring Christians as they also absorbed these cultural traits, which are I repeat: very superficial. However, foreign cultural elements doesn't make one less European, Swedes have some Turkish dishes, does this make them less European? Would they be more European without these foreign cultural influences?



Once again your criticism is off mark. I never argued about whether Catholocisim or any other form of faith was "good" or "bad" on average. What I pointed out was that your portrayal of Catholicism as an obskurantist dogmatic cult comparable to modern Islam is incorrect. Certainly Protestantism was a step forward fro Northern Europe.

Catholicism was a dogmatic cult comparable to modern Islam. The differences are only superficial. And as I have argued, the less of both religions, the better and freer the society is.

There were contributions, Islamic society had a period where it was much better than anything the Catholic church ever came up with, etc., while the Catholic Church has done far more damage than good. Yet I won't vouch for Islam either.


It's the cultural norms and practices reinforced and supported by Orthodox Church that cause the misunderstanding so yes, at least partly religion does play a role here.


Communism is by far the most important factor here.


Facts are pretty straightforward. Right-wing Euro parties use Islam as a scapegoat. Islamic rleigious building construction faces great opposition from locals in many parts of Europe and "Muslim" way of dressing is banned in some countries too.

Public display of religious symbols is banned in some countries, that includes France which you live in if I'm not wrong. The burqa is much more visible than the cross, however.

Yet it has little to do with this. Yes, Islam is clearly unpopular among a lot of people, that is the non-European version brought by non-Europeans. This is not the case with Albanians and Bosniaks, this argument doesn't hold for them. And clearly, the fact that we're not speaking about Albanians and Bosniaks and their version of Islam but immigrants from Arabia, Africa, etc. speaks for itself.

The by far biggest problem with these immigrants is crime rates, behaviour, etc., by the way. It's the often backwards behaviour of immigrants which gets the most attention and is the biggest issue. Islam might have a finger in it, but as aforementioned, this cannot be the case with Albanians and Bosniaks.

[Duke]

Hey Lena

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm150/mz_dirt_mcgirt/Favorites/96vw5ge.gif

Dude you have serious issues, ever considered professional getting help?

[Panopticon]

Dude you have serious issues, ever considered professional getting help?

He probably has a good taste in movies though.

[Padre Organtino]

They certainly were influenced by Hellenic culture. Both earlier and later on, their culture was influenced by Hellenism.

Progress among the Arabs and the Islamic Golden Age can be partially attributed to Hellenic influence.


It is more a result of assimilating Iranian and other ancient ME cultures but I agree on Hellenic influence. However, you don't quite get my point here. Christianity has been born among Levantine people exposed to Hellenic/Roman culture while Islam was a Saudi Arabian thing from the start and has always had center of gravity in the Middle East.



Referring to them as Hellenized Semites is far-fetched. They had been under the same Hellenistic empire as all other Semites. Christian Semites were at this scant in Europe, there were only miniscule communities.

The basis of Christian teachings came from their homeland and were thoroughly Abrahamo-Semitic, however; they didn't adapt it to Roman society. The Hellenization and Romanization of Christianity happened later and it was separate from the true Christian foundation.


Christiniaty started spreading rapidly precisely among those Semites who lived diasporally in Europe. It was later formalised and "codified" by Byzantines and Romans. So it has never been something truly Middle Eastern unlike Islam.




You allow some to be "different", but not others. The same principles should apply to everyone.

I have always suspected there to be some underlying mentality behind this argument: that Islam hasn't been Europeanized because of the people belonging to that faith. That could be why most of these people also see Albanians as non-European or less European than others. This is why Christianity could go under the process of "Europeanization" while Islam couldn't, because Europeans never could have become Muslim.

And while there certainly were foreign cultural elements that came with Islam, the Muslims share these with their neighbouring Christians as they also absorbed these cultural traits, which are I repeat: very superficial. However, foreign cultural elements doesn't make one less European, Swedes have some Turkish dishes, does this make them less European? Would they be more European without these foreign cultural influences?


Adopting dishes, technological inventions, using loanwords and etc has little to no impact upon culture and worldview. Embracing teh religion that has a very strong identity behind it and promotes certain morale and views is totally different. While any religion or ideology is at the end of the day molded by the ethnicity adopting it Christians in Europe were mostly influenced and governed by their own kind while Euro Muslims were under culturl influence of Middl East. So while still being European racially they have on average higher affinity with modern Middle Easterners than other Euros on average. This is not good or bad per se - just a fact. I certainly don't think religion can transform European into Middle Easterner or vica versa but I do believe in the importance of cultural impacts.




Catholicism was a dogmatic cult comparable to modern Islam. The differences are only superficial. And as I have argued, the less of both religions, the better and freer the society is.

There were contributions, Islamic society had a period where it was much better than anything the Catholic church ever came up with, etc., while the Catholic Church has done far more damage than good. Yet I won't vouch for Islam either.


Catholicism never had restrictions on art and science as harsh as those of Islam. Islamic golden age did not last long and was more a by product of the activity of Greeks, Jews, Iranians and other conquered folks. It was born as a rather simple cult with clearly shaped expansionary mission and norms based around what was normal for Bedouin clannish society. Those are hardly compatible with advanced culture.



Communism is by far the most important factor here.


Eastern Germans, Bulgarians, Estonians, Ukranians and Azeris are all ex-commie. The trajectories these nations followed after the fall of Communism and teh way they are treated in Western Europe are very different from each other.



Public display of religious symbols is banned in some countries, that includes France which you live in if I'm not wrong. The burqa is much more visible than the cross, however.


The problem is precisely that Islam dictates some norms that are absird and outdated whil Christianity also being a similar cult in nature is much easier to reconcile with a normally functioning society.



Yet it has little to do with this. Yes, Islam is clearly unpopular among a lot of people, that is the non-European version brought by non-Europeans. This is not the case with Albanians and Bosniaks, this argument doesn't hold for them. And clearly, the fact that we're not speaking about Albanians and Bosniaks and their version of Islam but immigrants from Arabia, Africa, etc. speaks for itself.

The by far biggest problem with these immigrants is crime rates, behaviour, etc., by the way. It's the often backwards behaviour of immigrants which gets the most attention and is the biggest issue. Islam might have a finger in it, but as aforementioned, this cannot be the case with Albanians and Bosniaks.


Albanians and Bosniaks are also known for being prone to criminal behaviour in Europe (this of course goes for many other ex-Yugo and ex-USSR people including both Euro and non-Euro ones). The thing is that those people with Islamic values cause much more trouble than their non-Islamic "relatives" on average. Ask native Brits who are more of a problem: Pakis or Indians? The culture with oppresive approach to sexual relationships, dogmatism, cult of violence and public shame as a substitute for intrinsic morale norms is more likely to produce disfuntional immigrants.

[Rron]

These are ungrateful people. Without Turks and and without the privileges they received from the Ottoman empire, all Albanians today would be hellenes of Epirus and all of them here would be discussing about how they are the direct descendants of ancient Greeks of Epirus like their Arvanite kinsmen does in Greece today.

You occupied Albania for almost 500 years, prohibited education trying to achieve your goals which ones are well known.
Also islamization which served as an ideological instrument at the hands of the Ottomans to achieve the political and the cultural assimilation of the Albanians. Islamization was a process that was imposed upon the Albanians, with purpose to hinder Albanian unity against empire, it was an obstacle to Albanian social, political and cultural development.

The conversion to Islam was used by your empire to assimilate culturally and ethnically the Albanians themselves.

How can you say that if there wouldnt be Ottoman empire we would be called Greeks?. The attempts to assimilate Albanians were from all sides, slavs, greeks, but probably you know that Albanian identity was continuity of Illyrian identity therefore was known long time before you came here, have you ever read about culture of Arbër( medieval name of Albanians)which is a link in the chain of the uninterrupted Illyro-Albanian continuity.


Albanians was the second behind Bosnians in terms of most privileged non-Turkish citizens of Ottoman Empire. Beside Turkish ones, the number of Bosnian viziers was highest and second was Albanians.
What you are trying to say here is totaly irelevant, therefore from another point of view Albanians were continuing to fight and resist the Ottoman occupation, with the positions held by the Albanian feudal elements,which Albanian feudal elements were an integral part of the Ottoman feudal class.

However, your and mainly Serbian pretension that the Albanian people was presumably privileged under the Ottoman occupation, that the Albanian people was not subjected to the same intensive form of exploitation and ruthless domination as the other peoples of the Ottoman Empire is based on a lie, its actually opposite Albanians were most backward and oppresed by you.