Genetic Structure of Europeans: A View from the North–East

[Brännvin]

http://bayimg.com/image/naaieaacf.jpg


http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0005472
Copyright: © 2009 Nelis et al.

[Lenny]

Those maps are all pretty much undecipherable to me.

What the heck is it supposed to mean?

(+.03,+.0015) --> :confused:

[Tabiti]

I think it shows the genetic distance.
But, anyway, where are the conclusions?

[Loki]

But, anyway, where are the conclusions?

For starters, it rubbishes the idiotic claims often made here that Russians are non-European.

[Tabiti]

It really depends what part of Russia was tested. But supposing from the results, it was the European part and/or ethnic Russians only.

[Lenny]

Those maps are all pretty much undecipherable to me.

What the heck is it supposed to mean?

(+.03,+.0015) --> :confused:
received via rep:

For you, it should probably mean that Russians fall firmly within the European genetic family, closer to the rest of the group than are Finns and Estonians. Fact.

Hmm..

But notice that southern-Italy and northern-Italy are grouped together:eek: If the darkest,coarsest of southern-Italians are a mere "centimeter or two away from" the lightest of the northern-Italians (whatever these distances are supposed to mean:confused:), well that casts the entire validity of this methodology into question. IMO :eek:

It also looks like a lot of Soviet-Estonians were tested because a large portion of ESTs group with Russians; and anyone who knows anything about the two will know that it's incredibly easy to tell the two apart.

[DarkZarathustra]

ethnic Russians only.
Who's else? Chechens?

[Tabiti]

Kind of surprised of the small Swiss - Bulgarian distances, however the similarities with Hungary seem quite real and reasonable.

[Loki]

But notice that southern-Italy and northern-Italy are grouped together:eek: If the darkest,coarsest of southern-Italians are a mere "centimeter or two away from" the lightest of the northern-Italians (whatever these distances are supposed to mean:confused:), well that casts the entire validity of this methodology into question. IMO :eek:


Pigmentation is not everything, these peoples probably have more in common than they have differences ... or the differences are more superficial than thought previously.



It also looks like a lot of Soviet-Estonians were tested because a large portion of ESTs group with Russians; and anyone who knows anything about the two will know that it's incredibly easy to tell the two apart.

Amazing conclusion. How about this one: There is genetic overlap between Russians and Estonians. Sounds more plausible to me.

[Zyklop]

There's a better quality graph available from that article:

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/3483/fetchobjectactionuriinf.png

[Agrippa]

Thanks Zyklop, this graph is much more useful.


But notice that southern-Italy and northern-Italy are grouped together If the darkest,coarsest of southern-Italians are a mere "centimeter or two away from" the lightest of the northern-Italians

Well, if you consider the strong overlap of variants, since the South is not just made up of dark Gracilmediterranids neither, the fact that there was genflow as well as the small geographic distance, the genetic distance is rather remarkable inside of Italy.

In fact, I was rather surprised how huge it is going after these study, since Northern Italians are closer to Spaniards and (presumable Romance) Swiss than Southern Italians!

Going after this analysis, one can distinguish three gradients in Europe:
Neolithic influence - strongest in this sample in Southern Italians, which have the strongest Neolithic and later Greek input. If one would have put Greeks into the sample, I'm pretty sure they would have been quite close to the Southern Italians.

There is a clear Eastern European cluster, which seems to be largely independent from the strongest deviation in Europe, namely the Uralic influence. The Uralic influence, which being typologically best represented by the Lappid and Eastbaltid component, is strongest in Northern Finland, as other studies have shown too. Sweden has a Finno-Ugric influence, therefore some Swedish tend towards the Finns, as do Estonians.

So this graph shows primarily that all Europeans cluster pretty close together and follow a geographic pattern, despite the Finno-Ugric/Uralic group, in which there is a strong differentiation though, since Southern Finns are genetically much closer to the European core group than Northern ones - like they are typologically too.

If the British, Norway and Greece in particular would have been included, it would have been even more interesting. But as things are, genetic results being updated constantly and what are the big news today might need a correction or further investigation tomorrow...

The only constant we have in practically all studies is the Uralic/Finno-Ugric deviation and in more recent studies the strong differentiation inside of the Finnic population, actually repeating the distinction made by anthropologists from a typological point of view.

Anthropological map for the racial typological characteristics of the Finno-Ugrian populations:
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/6/finnougrier1.jpg (http://img190.imageshack.us/my.php?image=finnougrier1.jpg)
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/finnougrier1.jpg/1/w1200.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img190/finnougrier1.jpg/1/)

From
Bernhard, Kandler-Palsson, Ethnogenese europäischer Völker (1986).

Body height and LBI in Scandinavia and the Baltic States:
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/8408/scandinavien014sp5.jpg (http://img190.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scandinavien014sp5.jpg)
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/scandinavien014sp5.jpg/1/w2338.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img190/scandinavien014sp5.jpg/1/)

From the series
Rassengeschichte der Menschheit

So the stronger the Nordoid/Southern influence in Finnland and Estonia (in Estonia its a West-East division), the closer to the European core groups of Central Europe genetically.

[Mc Queen]

Recently I've found this.


Unfortunately there isn't the intra-national distinction (north germany/south Germany or North Italy/Southern Italy).


http://i41.tinypic.com/71og2t.jpg

[Osweo]

It also looks like a lot of Soviet-Estonians were tested because a large portion of ESTs group with Russians; and anyone who knows anything about the two will know that it's incredibly easy to tell the two apart.
Hating Russkies is so yesterday, man. :rolleyes:

Estonian was once spoken all the way to Leningrad. Closely related languages were spoken all the way to Moscow and beyond. Millions of Russians have Finnic ancestry. And Russian Old Believers have been in Estonia for centuries, long before Stalin's conquests. And the Orthodox Estonian speaking Setu in the south-east of Estonia and neighbouring Pskovskaya Oblast' have mixed a little too, Finnicising some Russians. It's not completely a one-way street.

Anthropological map for the racial typological characteristics of the Finno-Ugrian populations:
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/6/finnougrier1.jpg (http://img190.imageshack.us/my.php?image=finnougrier1.jpg)
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/finnougrier1.jpg/1/w1200.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img190/finnougrier1.jpg/1/)

From
Bernhard, Kandler-Palsson, Ethnogenese europäischer Völker (1986).


To amuse myself, I superimposed the distribution of 'Tsokayuschy' dialects (Russians who say 'Ts' where the standard is 'Ch'). A clear Finnic substrate:
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/3949/finnougrier13jam.jpg
You can see that there are distinct Finnic pockets in the south and west of their old range, around which large numbers of Slavonic agriculturalists have swarmed, but in the less densely populated and populateable north, the two fused more evenly.
I hope the genetic studdies eventually get round to this level of detail.

[Electronic God-Man]

Recently I've found this.


Unfortunately there isn't the intra-national distinction (north germany/south Germany or North Italy/Southern Italy).


http://i41.tinypic.com/71og2t.jpg

I'd make an educated guess and say that those Italian icons showing up nearer to the Greek cluster instead of the main Italian cluster are from Southern Italy and Sicily. There has been a close connection between the two since Ancient Greece (Magna Graecia).

[Osweo]

I'd make an educated guess and so that those Italian icons showing up nearer to the Greek cluster instead of the main Italian cluster are from Southern Italy and Sicily. There has been a close connection between the two since Ancient Greece (Magna Graecia).

I'd love to see Corsica and Sardinia, and the Balearics treated specially. Malta and Crete too. Has anyone seen such a study?

[Mc Queen]

I'd make an educated guess and so that those Italian icons showing up nearer to the Greek cluster instead of the main Italian cluster are from Southern Italy and Sicily. There has been a close connection between the two since Ancient Greece (Magna Graecia).


Yes, i think it's correct. The block of icons that almost overlap with greeks is obviously from deep southern source (not even the mainland, rather Sicily).

[Brännvin]

It also looks like a lot of Soviet-Estonians were tested because a large portion of ESTs group with Russians; and anyone who knows anything about the two will know that it's incredibly easy to tell the two apart.

I do not think it would make a big difference, millions of Russian around the Ladoga lake have finno-ugric ancestors. Russification, anybody?.:cool:..

Estonia was one of countries where people of all regions were tested.


The studied 3,112 individuals representing a total of 19 cohorts (Czech Republic samples were used as one in all analyses except from the inter-population structure analyses) samples from 16 countries: Austria (Vienna), Bulgaria (entire country), Czech Republic (Prague, Moravia and Silesia), Estonia (entire country), Finland (Helsinki, and a young internal subisolate of Kuusamo), France (Paris), Germany (Schleswig-Holstein, Augsburg region), Hungary (entire country), Italy (Borbera Valley, Region of Apulia), Latvia (Riga), Lithuania (entire country), Poland (West-Pomerania), Russia (Andreapol district of the Tver region), Spain (entire country), Sweden (Stockholm) and Switzerland (Geneva)

http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjour nal.pone.0005472.t001&representation=PNG_M

________


Interesting part are the barriers identified in the study;


Barrier analysis revealed genetic barriers between Finland, Italy and other countries, as has been described before.

Interestingly, barriers could be demonstrated within Finland (between Helsinki and Kuusamo) and Italy (between northern and southern part). Another barrier emerged between the Eastern Baltic region and Sweden, but not between the Eastern Baltic region and Poland. The barrier between Bulgaria and Western Russia, Poland and Lithuania may have arisen due to the fact that several populations are missing in between those countries.

It has been shown previously that the populations of central European background are less differentiated genetically, whereas the Finns exhibit a more homogeneous population structure with decreased genetic diversity.

http://i40.tinypic.com/1zd17wp.jpg

[Mc Queen]

From what i know these are the most recent plots : the fundamental divide in Europe doesn't seem to be "northern-southern" one, rather the "western-eastern"


http://i39.tinypic.com/2yx3rf4.jpg

[Brännvin]

From which study is that graphic, Hussar?

[Mc Queen]

From which study is that graphic, Hussar?


I haven't the link. Polako posted it on Stirpes and AF.......

[Brännvin]

I haven't the link.

Ok, though I am not sure if that study is more recent than that of Nelis, published in May from this year, 2009..

[Osweo]

From what i know these are the most recent plots : the fundamental divide in Europe doesn't seem to be "northern-southern" one, rather the "western-eastern"

http://i39.tinypic.com/2yx3rf4.jpg

Just depends on how you draw your x and y axes, it seems to me! And Europe's longer than it is wide anyway.

Our fundamental divides are more cultural - the vinicultural line - and climatic - the January isobar that runs through Poland.

[Mc Queen]

Our fundamental divides are more cultural - the vinicultural line - and climatic - the January isobar that runs through Poland.


Then the line is in northern France less or more ?

[Osweo]

Then the line is in northern France less or more ?
We have a few vinyards in the South of England, actually. I'm happy to have these traitors exiled, however... :thumb001:

It follows the old Roman limes, more or less.

[esaima]

received via rep:


It also looks like a lot of Soviet-Estonians were tested because a large portion of ESTs group with Russians; and anyone who knows anything about the two will know that it's incredibly easy to tell the two apart.

The common marriages between Russians and Estonians during the Soviet period were rare, not usual .And they are rare now, too.Two different ethnic groups, no mach communication between them.

[Äike]

The common marriages between Russians and Estonians during the Soviet period were rare, not usual .And they are rare now, too.Two different ethnic groups, not much communication between them.

The young Russians, who went to school during the new Estonian era, should speak Estonian. That makes communication easier between Russians and Estonians and that means more marriages. They're rare, but they're happening. I know several people who married Russians.

[esaima]

Originally Posted by esäimä
The common marriages between Russians and Estonians during the Soviet period were rare, not usual .And they are rare now, too.Two different ethnic groups, not much communication between them.

The young Russians, who went to school during the new Estonian era, should speak Estonian. That makes communication easier between Russians and Estonians and that means more marriages. They're rare, but they're happening. I know several people who married Russians.
Yes, of corse there are marriages between Ests and Russians, i also know several people.I just wanted to say that according to statistics the marriages between Russians and local people i.e the Estonians in Estonia in the Soviet period were the most rare in whole Soviet Union.About 6-8 per cents.