Criticism of Holocaust denial

[Loki]

Criticism of Holocaust denial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Holocaust_denial)

Holocaust Denial on Trial: Using History to Confront Distortions (http://www.hdot.org/)

It is important to hear both sides of the story.

The Holocaust: Denial & History (http://www.hdot.org/en/denial)

Learning Tools: Myths & Facts (http://www.hdot.org/en/learning)

Irving v. Lipstadt: Denial on Trial (http://www.hdot.org/en/trial)

Continuing Effort: News & Updates (http://www.hdot.org/en/struggle)

[Lenny]

The most common criticism of Holocaust revisionism is that it is an attempt to whitewash Hitler by a group of tinpot neonazis.

This is not entirely untrue. (The converse is likewise true, the bulk of Holocaust-enforcers are clearly motivated by a desire to see European nationalism stay dead). It is not entirely true, either. The question is who is right, not what people's motivations may or may not be.



The question is who is right
1. What evidence is there for the alleged mass-gassings of human beings at Auschwitz?
2. What evidence suggests that the gassings claims were a myth and a legacy of black-propaganda and wartime hysteria?
3. What evidence is there for a formal plan to exterminate European Jewry?
4. [and so on]

A rational discussion of the above is flatly impossible because of the emotionalism of it all. Perhaps in due time. The revisionist movement reached a fever pitch in the 1980s and early 90s, but that was too soon.

[RoyBatty]

One famous quote makes mention of lies, damn lies and statistics. The meaning was of course that there are many ways to "bend" the truth and facts and that through the use of statistics even more outrageous "proofs" can be invented.

The "holocaust" reminds me a bit of this quote as does "the true facts about 9/11".

The reality is that there is so much conflicting evidence, facts and falsifications regarding all these events that it's become impossible to determine with certainty what the truth about them are.

Having said that, banning the discussion and debate of these and other topics and enforcing this ban with State sponsored persecution, torture, terror and incarceration is completely immoral and an infringement upon the rights of the individual citizen. This is unfortunately the case today in a number of unfree European countries.

No matter what one's beliefs or convictions, one cannot allow a situation to develop where certain ethnic, religious, national or class groups are placed upon a pedestal and made out to be untouchable and above criticism.

- We are all intimately familiar with having the race card thrown in our faces (is it coz I is black...) every time we dare question / criticise Omabongo.

- In the same way, people have become afraid of criticising Jews because of the tiresome "anti-Semitic" slur being directed at them.

Both these examples illustrate clearly how the public are manipulated through social engineering and brainwashing to not dare criticise certain groups while being permitted to criticise others. This is an example of what happens when certain groups start becoming "more equal" than others and it is nonsense - nobody are above criticism or making mistakes and nobody should be intimidated or made to feel afraid of voicing their opinions about anybody else.

That is what freedom of speech and healthy debate is all about. A healthy and free society doesn't need a Thought Gestapo to decide what may and may not be talked about or "what the real facts are".

That is what oppressive and authoritarian regimes do.

[Lulletje Rozewater]

There is no denying of the holocaust
Israel has yet to replenish its diminishing supply of caustic-soda.

[lei.talk]

A rational discussion of the above is flatly impossible
because of the emotionalism of it all. my high-school girl-friend earned vocational-credits
working at the mortuary
(she described it as "playing with giant dolls")
on south hill street in oceanside
(seriously: Goodbody Mortuary).

when ever a cremation was performed,
the furnace would roar
all night long.

in the morning, after cooling,
the bones would be crushed.

to avoid any of the emotionalism of "The Holocaust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust)",
simply present the numbers:

in how many different locations
did how many furnances
use how much fuel
over how much time
to cremate how many bodies?

stereotypically,
the germans were meticulous record-keepers
and proud of their activities -

the physical evidence and a calculator
should settle the discussion.

alternatively,
one could work the calculations in reverse:

how many bodies
require how much time
and fuel
in how many furnaces?

followed by a determination
if those resources actually did exist
at that time and place.

reason is much simpler
than the complexities of unreason.
*

[Angantyr]

I had family at Bergen Belsen. They told me what went on there and what they did there. They had no reason to lie to me 40 years after the fact. However, they merely considered it as an aspect of war...people die during wars.

In fact, ethnic based killings have taken place since time immemorial: the Armenians by the Turks; the Hutu by the Tutsi; American Indians by the Spanish, English and French; the Tamils by the Ceylonese, the Kurds by the Iraqis and so on. What is intolerable to me is that the Jews make it seem that they are the only ones to have suffered such a fate.

I see nothing wrong with accepting the truth of the Jewish genocide along with all the others. I also think that it in no way diminishes the Germans as a noble race.

[lei.talk]

They told me what went on there and what they did there. They had no reason to lie to me 40 years after the fact. However, they merely considered it as an aspect of war...

I see nothing wrong with accepting the truth of the Jewish genocide along with all the others.that particular camp
is known for the epidemic
that devastated the staff and prisoners (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergen-Belsen_concentration_camp#Operation)
during the final few months of the war
(due to over-crowding and the unavailability of supplies) -

not for any special treatment
of a particular group.

any new information
to be contributed to the record
would be appreciated.
*

[Angantyr]

that particular camp
is known for the epidemic
that devastated the staff and prisoners (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergen-Belsen_concentration_camp#Operation)
during the final few months of the war
(due to over-crowding and the unavailability of supplies) -

not for any special treatment
of a particular group.

any new information
to be contributed to the record
would be appreciated.

Unfortunately, all of my family who were at Bergen-Belsen are now dead. I only heard fleeting stories when I was younger...about 27 years ago. I was a child and it is a pity I did not have the foresight to talk and record their stories.

[Rudy]

There is a new push in the US to say that the Einsatzgruppe in Russia was where the largest amounts of killings took place. The liberals acknowledge fewer than a million deaths for the work camps such as Auschwitz, but then say there were bigger killings in the death camps in Poland, and roving troops in Russia. I would like to read some links on the alleged carbon dioxide chambers of Poland.

In addition to the resettlement program documents, Einsatzgruppe records are also offered as proof of an extermination program which targeted Jews. The aim of the Einsatzgruppe was to fight communist guerrillas inside captured Soviet territory. Some partisan groups were largely ethnically Jewish. The Einsatzgruppe targeted Jewish civilians for reprisals when partisans committed acts of sabotage or murder. The Einsatzgruppe documents indicate hundreds of thousands of Jews were killed.
http://www.rense.com/general78/hol.htm

It is no surprise that so many Russians Jews were killed, since Communism is essentially their idea. Most of the Communist party officials were Jewish.
http://www.israelect.com/reference/WillieMartin/StalinTheJew.htm

Quoting from the American Hebrew of September 8, 1920:
The Bolshevist revolution in Russia was the work of Jewish brains, of Jewish dissatisfaction, of Jewish planning, whose goal is to create a new order in the world. What was performed in so excellent a way in Russia, thanks to Jewish brains, and because of Jewish dissatisfaction, and by Jewish planning, shall also, through the same Jewish mental and physical forces, became a reality all over the world.
http://www.rense.com/general76/commun.htm

Einsatz information
http://hgs.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/15/3/468.pdf

[Osweo]

myhow many bodies
require how much time
and fuel
in how many furnaces?

The ridiculous amount of ash we got out of tiny emaciated grandmother amazed me, and the weight of it. This, and the fact that you're not allowed to question the holocause tm was enough to get me suspicious.

Massive exaggeration, that's clear enough. Willful neglect, occasional cruelty, even sporadic sponsored pogroms, sure, but gassing of millions - my arse.

[Poltergeist]

Holocaust denial denial (http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Holocaust_denial_denial)

[SwordoftheVistula]

There is a new push in the US to say that the Einsatzgruppe in Russia was where the largest amounts of killings took place. The liberals acknowledge fewer than a million deaths for the work camps such as Auschwitz, but then say there were bigger killings in the death camps in Poland, and roving troops in Russia.

I haven't heard that from anyone aside from David Irving. That is is Irving's conclusion after reading all the decoded communiques of the 3rd Reich, that Himmler and the Einsatzgruppen on the eastern front are responsible for 1,226,000 jews killed at 4 camps on the eastern front (Lublin, Treblinka, and a couple others I forget the names of, but not Auschwitz) and assorted other massacres of a few hundred or thousand at a time; the primary weapon being Finnish made copies of the American 'tommy-gun' rather than gas chambers.

[Fortis in Arduis]

I haven't heard that from anyone aside from David Irving. That is is Irving's conclusion after reading all the decoded communiques of the 3rd Reich, that Himmler and the Einsatzgruppen on the eastern front are responsible for 1,226,000 jews killed at 4 camps on the eastern front (Lublin, Treblinka, and a couple others I forget the names of, but not Auschwitz) and assorted other massacres of a few hundred or thousand at a time; the primary weapon being Finnish made copies of the American 'tommy-gun' rather than gas chambers.

Honesty would be the best policy.

Capitalists and communists, including some capitalist and communist Zionists, made a big meal of a situation that they managed very badly.

Few people cared about the Jewish people other than a few Jews who were excluded by the Establishment (British and Israeli), and the various capitalistic and communistic governments all played a big part in the tragedy, and then used the story of the Holocaust to deny or detract from their complicity, placing exclusive blame upon National Socialist Germany.

It is a truly sickening reality, of how economics mean more than people to the powers that be.

[SwordoftheVistula]

Honesty would be the best policy.

Capitalists and communists, including some capitalist and communist Zionists, made a big meal of a situation that they managed very badly.

Few people cared about the Jewish people other than a few Jews who were excluded by the Establishment (British and Israeli), and the various capitalistic and communistic governments all played a big part in the tragedy, and then used the story of the Holocaust to deny or detract from their complicity, placing exclusive blame upon National Socialist Germany.

It is a truly sickening reality, of how economics mean more than people to the powers that be.

Of course, nobody wanted those people around, since they were known troublemakers. Perhaps those in these countries who now say the reverse are the true 'revisionists'

[raZvan]

I have no reason to question it, nor do I have a reason to pity Jews today. It is sad so many people died and I feel for them and their immediate families. But its time to move on for everyone, from the whiny brats that use it as an excuse and leverage to those who obstinately say it was all a lie. Who the fuck cares? That's not what is important anymore, what is important is to make sure we don't reproduce (or produce for the deniers) such cruelty. As I often tell my younger siblings "Shut up, learn and move along."

[Rudy]

For those that follow this type of information, it is surprising how many of the stories have been debunked, but many common people are still unaware. If complete transcripts are read, many people only heard rumors of gas chambers, but had never seen any in person. The Red Cross interviewed thousands of people, and found zero evidence of gas chambers. Many people must have been unaware of what cremation is, and were scared during the war time.

Elie Wiesel, with their own definitions of truth and fiction. It was he who said that "Some stories are true that never happened."
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/features/why-would-any-writer-make-up-stories-about-the-holocaust-1803275.html

[Lulletje Rozewater]

The Chemical & Toxicological
Impossibility Of The
Auschwitz Gas
Chamber Legend

http://www.rense.com/general69/gasccm.htm

I do not give a rats ass how many jews died and by whom.
I feel washers for Irving or Lipstadt's History on trial.
But
I find it absurd that Irving was sentenced in Austria,a country which has made it a crime since 1992 to deny.
http://radioislam.org/irving/arrestation.htm

I find it a crime that the jews have milked Germany out of millions and millions of dollars for compensation. First the compensation for the loss of property,than for the dead,then for the survivors and now(about,I think 5 months ago) for the 2nd generation who are still traumatized.

I find it a crime that freedom of speech,and thought is curtailed by laws.
http://www.antisemitism.org.il/eng/Legislation%20Against%20Antisemitism%20and%20Denia l%20of%20the%20Holocaust#Austria1

I find it criminal that Britain allowed the jews to settle in Israel(Palestine,a country which was not theirs to give.Palestine was a protectorate of the British and they had no right to give it to a bunch of Zionists.)

It is a know fact that the Communist doctrine was likened by the jews throughout the world.

Last but not least.
For Hitler to rid his country of jews is his business,but to kill some of my parent's family is mine. WTF was he doing in the Netherlands,other than crapping on Britain.
For the jews to use the word "anti-Semitism" are fooling the world
There are far more Semite Arabs,now who the hell are these 25 million odd sods to call them the sole representatives of the Semite tribe

[Klärchen]

As a young woman, Annette Schücking-Homeyer served as a Red Cross volunteer on the Eastern Front in Ukraine. In an interview with SPIEGEL, the retired judge discusses the horrors committed against the Jews there, how everyone knew about them and why, even after the war, most people just wanted to forget.

'They Really Do Smell Like Blood': Among Hitler's Executioners on the Eastern Front (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,674375,00.html)

[Jarl]

Let's have a closer look:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzgruppen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghettos_in_occupied_Europe_1939-1944

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treblinka_extermination_camp


At Treblinka, arriving by train, victims were pulled from the train, separated by gender, and ordered to strip naked. In winter, the temperature often dropped to -20 °C (-5 °F). The guards chose who would go to the "infirmary." Jews who were too resistant to the process were taken to the infirmary and shot. Women had their hair cut off before going into the gas chamber.[8] This hair was used "in the manufacture of hair-yarn socks for 'U'-boat crews and hair-felt foot-wear for the Reichs-railway" to quote from a directive sent to all concentration camp commanders in 1942.[12]

The gas chamber had portholes through which the Germans could watch the victims die.[8] The victims were gassed with carbon monoxide generated by diesel engines.[13] After the gassing of the victims in the gas chamber, when the doors of the gas chamber were opened, "the disfigured, bitten prisoners, with ears torn off, lay on top of each other in the most varied posture." The bodies were initially buried in large mass graves; in a later stage of the camp's operation, they were burned on open-air grids made of concrete pillars and railway tracks. Sometimes, the people were not dead and began to revive in the fresh air, especially pregnant women. They were shot by the guards and burned like the others. Some 800–1,000 bodies were burned at the same time, and would burn for five hours. The incinerator operated 24 hours a day.[14]

The killing centers had no other function, unlike concentration camps where prisoners were used as forced labor for the German war effort. The camp was disguised as a railway station to prevent incoming victims from realizing their fate, complete with train schedules, posters of destinations and what appeared to be a working clock (in reality, a prisoner would move the hands to the approximate time before each convoy arrived).[15] The camp and the process of mass murder is described by Vasily Grossman, a Jewish correspondent serving in the Red Army, in his work "A Hell Called Treblinka," which was used as evidence and distributed at the Nuremberg Trials.


Starting in December 1939, the Nazis introduced new methods of mass murder by using gas.[104] First experimental vans, equipped with gas cylinders and a sealed trunk compartment, were used to kill mental care clients of sanatoria in Pomerania, East Prussia, and occupied Poland since 1939, as part of an operation termed Aktion T4.[104] In the Sachsenhausen concentration camp, larger vans holding up to 100 people were used in a similar way since November 1941, yet the gas did not come from a cylinder but directly from the engine's exhaust.[104] These vans were introduced to the Chelmno concentration camp in December 1941, and another 15 of them were used by the death squads in the occupied Soviet Union.[104] These gas vans were developed and run under supervision of the Reichssicherheitshauptamt (Reich Main Security Bureau), and were used to kill about 500,000 people, primarily Jews, but also Romani and others.[104] The vans were carefully monitored and month later a report stated that 'ninety seven thousand have been processed using three vans, without any defects showing up in the machines'[105].

A need for new mass murder techniques was also expressed by Hans Frank, governor of the General Government, who noted that this many people could not be simply shot. "We shall have to take steps, however, designed in some way to eliminate them." It was this dilemma which led the SS to experiment with large-scale killings using poison gas. Finally, SS Obersturmführer Christian Wirth seems to have been the inventor of the gas chamber.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_van


During trips to Russia in 1941, Hitler learned the psychological impact on the killers posed by the shooting of women and children. Hence, he commissioned Arthur Nebe to explore less stressful ways of killing. Nebe's experiments eventually led to the production of the gas van. [7] This vehicle had already been used in 1940 for the gassing of East Prussian Pomeranian mental patients in Soldau, a camp located in the former Polish corridor.[8]

It was a vehicle with an air-tight compartment for victims into which exhaust gas was transmitted while the engine was running. As a result the victims were gassed with carbon monoxide, resulting in death by the combined effects of carbon monoxide poisoning and suffocation.

Gas vans were used, particularly at Chełmno extermination camp, until gas chambers were developed as a more efficient method for killing large numbers of people. In Belgrade, the gas van was known as "Dušegupka" (murder-room or murder-van) and in the occupied parts of the USSR similarly as "душегубка" (dushegubka).

The gas vans are extensively discussed in some of the interviews in Claude Lanzmann's film, Shoah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_chamber


Gas chambers were used in the Third Reich as part of the "public euthanasia program" aimed at eliminating physically and intellectually disabled people and political undesirables in the 1930s and 1940s. At that time, the preferred gas was carbon monoxide, often provided by the exhaust gas of cars, trucks or army tanks.[9]


Gas chamber at the Stutthof concentration camp.During the Holocaust, gas chambers were designed to accept large groups as part of the Nazi policy of genocide against the Jews. Nazis also targeted the Romani people, homosexuals, physically and mentally disabled, and intellectuals. In early 1940, the use of hydrogen cyanide produced as Zyklon B was tested on 250 Roma children from Brno at the Buchenwald concentration camp.[10] According to Nizkor Project (Hebrew: נִזְכּוֹר‎), on September 3, 1941, 600 Soviet POWs were gassed with Zyklon B at Auschwitz camp I; this was the first experiment with the gas at Auschwitz.[11]

According to a website running by Jürgen Langowski, an anti-Nazi German activist, Carbon monoxide was also used in large purpose-built gas chambers. The gas was in exhaust gas from internal combustion engines (detailed in the Gerstein Report).[12]

Gas chambers in vans, concentration camps, and extermination camps were used to kill several million people between 1941 and 1945. Some stationary gas chambers could kill 2,000 people at once.[13] The use of gas chambers during the Holocaust was attested to by several sources including the Vrba-Wetzler report and testimony from Rudolf Höss, Commandant of the Auschwitz concentration camp, and other German soldiers.[14][15][16]

The gas chambers were dismantled or destroyed when Soviet troops got close, except at Dachau, Sachsenhausen, and Majdanek. The gas chamber at Auschwitz I was reconstructed after the war as a memorial, but without a door in its doorway and without the wall that originally separated the gas chamber from a washroom. The door that had been added when the gas chamber was converted into an air raid shelter was left intact.[17]


At the extermination camps with gas chambers all the prisoners arrived by train. Sometimes entire trainloads were sent straight to the gas chambers, but usually the camp doctor on duty subjected individuals to selections, where a small percentage were deemed fit to work in the slave labor camps; the majority were taken directly from the platforms to a reception area where all their clothes and other possessions were seized by the Nazis to help fund the war. They were then herded naked into the gas chambers. Usually they were told these were showers or delousing chambers, and there were signs outside saying "baths" and "sauna." They were sometimes given a small piece of soap and a towel so as to avoid panic, and were told to remember where they had put their belongings for the same reason. When they asked for water because they were thirsty after the long journey in the cattle trains, they were told to hurry up, because coffee was waiting for them in the camp, and it was getting cold.[132]

According to Rudolf Höß, commandant of Auschwitz, bunker 1 held 800 people, and bunker 2 held 1,200.[133] Once the chamber was full, the doors were screwed shut and solid pellets of Zyklon-B were dropped into the chambers through vents in the side walls, releasing toxic HCN, or hydrogen cyanide. Those inside died within 20 minutes; the speed of death depended on how close the inmate was standing to a gas vent, according to Höß, who estimated that about one third of the victims died immediately.[134] Joann Kremer, an SS doctor who oversaw the gassings, testified that: "Shouting and screaming of the victims could be heard through the opening and it was clear that they fought for their lives."[135] When they were removed, if the chamber had been very congested, as they often were, the victims were found half-squatting, their skin colored pink with red and green spots, some foaming at the mouth or bleeding from the ears.[134]

The gas was then pumped out, the bodies were removed (which would take up to four hours), gold fillings in their teeth were extracted with pliers by dentist prisoners, and women's hair was cut.[136] The floor of the gas chamber was cleaned, and the walls whitewashed.[135] The work was done by the Sonderkommando prisoners, Jews who hoped to buy themselves a few extra months of life. In crematoria 1 and 2, the Sonderkommando lived in an attic above the crematoria; in crematoria 3 and 4, they lived inside the gas chambers.[137] When the Sonderkommando had finished with the bodies, the SS conducted spot checks to make sure all the gold had been removed from the victims' mouths. If a check revealed that gold had been missed, the Sonderkommando prisoner responsible was thrown into the furnace alive as punishment.[138]

At first, the bodies were buried in deep pits and covered with lime, but between September and November 1942, on the orders of Himmler, they were dug up and burned. In the spring of 1943, new gas chambers and crematoria were built to accommodate the numbers.[139]




Whatever, your stance on the numbers might be... the truth is there was an elaborate programme in force aimed at extermination and expropriation of the population inhabiting pre-1939 Poland.Most executions occured by mass-shootings from the kommandos.


This for instance, is a particularly well documented episode:


The large-scale killings of Jews in the occupied Soviet territories was assigned to SS formations called Einsatzgruppen ("task groups"), under the overall command of Heydrich. These had been used on a limited scale in Poland in 1939, but were now organized on a much larger scale. Einsatzgruppe A (commanded by SS-Brigadeführer Dr. Franz Stahlecker) was assigned to the Baltic area, Einsatzgruppe B (SS-Brigadeführer Artur Nebe) to Belarus, Einsatzgruppe C (SS-Gruppenführer Dr. Otto Rasch) to north and central Ukraine, and Einsatzgruppe D (SS-Gruppenführer Dr. Otto Ohlendorf) to Moldova, south Ukraine, the Crimea, and, during 1942, the north Caucasus. Of the four Einsatzgruppen, three were commanded by holders of doctorate degrees, of whom one (Rasch) held a double doctorate.[100]

According to Ohlendorf at his trial, "the Einsatzgruppen had the mission to protect the rear of the troops by killing the Jews, Gypsies, Communist functionaries, active Communists, and all persons who would endanger the security." In practice, their victims were nearly all defenseless Jewish civilians (not a single Einsatzgruppe member was killed in action during these operations). By December 1941, the four Einsatzgruppen listed above had killed, respectively, 125,000, 45,000, 75,000, and 55,000 people—a total of 300,000 people—mainly by shooting or with hand grenades at mass killing sites outside the major towns.

[Jarl]

A brief list of Holocaust Documentation:

http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_holocaust/documents/part_one.html

http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_holocaust/documents/part_two.html

http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_holocaust/documents/part_three.html


About 200 excerpts.


Extract From a Report by Karl Jaeger, Commander Of Einsatzkommando 3, on the Extermination Of Lithuanian Jews, 1941


Commander of the Security Police and the SD

Einsatzkommando 3

Kovno, December 1, 1941

Reich Secret Document

Final Summary of Executions carried out in the operating area of EK [Einsatzkommando] 3 up to December 1, 1941

...I can confirm today that Einsatzkommando 3 has achieved the goal of solving the Jewish problem in Lithuania. There are no more Jews in Lithuania, apart from working Jews and their families.

These number:

in Shavli, about 4,500

in Kovno, about 15,000

in Vilna, about 15,000

I wanted to eliminate the working Jews and their families as well, but the Civil Administration (Reichskommissar) and the Wehrmacht attacked me most sharply and issued a prohibition against having these Jews and their families shot.

The goal of clearing Lithuania of Jews could only be achieved through the establishment of a specially selected Mobile Commando under the command of SS Obersturmfuehrer Hamann, who adopted my aims fully and who was able to ensure the cooperation of the Lithuanian Partisans and the Civil Authorities concerned.

The carrying out of such Aktionen is first of all an organizational problem. The decision to clear each sub-district systematically of Jews called for a thorough preparation for each Aktion and the study of local conditions. The Jews had to be concentrated in one or more localities and, in accordance with their numbers, a site had to be selected and pits dug. The marching distance from the concentration points to the pits averaged 4 to 5 kms. The Jews were brought to the place of execution in groups of 500, with at least 2 kms. distance between groups... All the officers and men of my command in Kovno took an active part in the Grossaktionen in Kovno. Only one official of the intelligence corps was released from participation on account of illness.

I consider the Aktionen against the Jews of EK 3 to be virtually completed. The remaining working Jews and Jewesses are urgently needed, and I can imagine that this manpower will continue to be needed urgently after the winter has ended. I am of the opinion that the male working Jews should be sterilized immediately to prevent reproduction. Should any Jewess nevertheless become pregnant, she is to be liquidated....

Jaeger

SS Standartenfuehrer

"Jaeger" ;) ...



Nurmberg trials and testimonies:

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10007271

[Jarl]

It takes guts and perseverance to dig through it. But once you do it, it simply becomes impossible to deny that a planned mass extermination of neighbouring ethnicities was not going on.

[Wulfhere]

Why would anyone - except Germans - even want to deny the Holocaust? Remember that the Nazis and Islam were allies, and still are now.

[Daos]

NUTxJ_sz4bE

"In Krakow, the trial of the principal culprits for the Auschwitz concentration camp came to an end before a Polish court. The defendants were German camp guards or members of the German camp administration staff. Unheard-of atrocities against the camp inmates were proved against them, particularly against female prisoners. Altogether nearly 300 thousand people from the most different nations died in the Aushcwitz concentration camp."

"The court sentenced 23 of the accused to death, six to life sentences, ten to lengthy jail terms, one was acquitted. The Auschwitz concentration camp remains as it stands today as a monument of shame to the lasting memory of it's 300 thousand victims."


This info clearly dove-tales with the International Red Cross documents which puts the number under 300K. Remember, this includes all the victims; Poles, Russian POWs, communists, gypsies, and other political undesirables in addition to Jews.

Auschwitz victims: 4 million - per plaque there (1960s).

Early 1990s: new plaque with the new 1.5 mill number in Auschwitz.

Still 6 million total Jew victims!

http://rense.com/1.imagesH/Auch_dees.jpg

[Daos]

_FuV-ugBaaM

[Daos]

Dear AnswerMan,

How can you ask for proof of one person being gassed? Didn't Josef Kramer admit fully to the gassings?

Tim

AnswerMan Replies:

Your question is clearly a response to Bradley Smith's question that appeared in several college newspapers requesting the name of one person that was gassed at Auschwitz with proof. Your "proof" is the assertion that Josef Kramer confessed to the gassings.

We need to start with a bit of background: During his trial, Kramer provided a valuable detailed statement about his wartime career, including his role as commandant of Birkenau and Belsen. He frankly acknowledged that as many as 500 Birkenau inmates died weekly during the period when he was in charge, but stressed that these deaths were due to illness and old age, and were not the result of any policy. In fact, every effort was made to keep sick inmates alive, he said, and reported that the camp's physicians normally worked ten or eleven hours daily. Some 25 or 30 barracks buildings were set aside as hospital or recuperation quarters.

Kramer forthrightly responded to the persistent charges of extermination and gassings:

"I have heard of the allegations of former prisoners in Auschwitz referring to a gas chamber there, the mass executions and whippings, the cruelty of the guards employed, and that all that took place either in my presence or with my knowledge. All I can say to all this is that it is untrue from beginning to end."

Kramer later retreated from this unambiguous stand, perhaps in the hope that a "confession" might save his life. In a "supplementary" statement, he mentioned the existence of a single gas chamber in Birkenau, but added that it was not under his command.

In his 1949 study, Victor's Justice, historian Montgomery Belgion reported that Kramer and other "Belsen" trial defendants were tortured, sometimes to the point that they begged to be put to death (pp.80-81) In many cases defendants were told that their wives and children were in custody and only a confession could save their lives.

While torture may result in the "confessions" that the prosecution seeks, the value of such "confessions" is useless in establishing historical truth.


Source (http://www.codoh.com/answer/anskramer.html)

[Jarl]

Why would anyone - except Germans - even want to deny the Holocaust? Remember that the Nazis and Islam were allies, and still are now.

It is the perpetrators of this crime and their sidekicks/descendants who are most interested in some bizzare shameless haggling over the numbers - 1,5 mln or 300K etc. As if both numbers did not signify one of the most murderous crimes ever. As if there was no planned genocide and mass-extermination in the first place.

[Fortis in Arduis]

Two issues seem to be remarkably suspicious to me:

That the loudest holocaust revisionists are often anti-Zionists, and at the same time, the free investigation of those events has been criminalised.

What is the point of all this crap?

I want to reiterate my former point, that this is a capitalist-socialist conspiracy to demonise nationalism.

Ioannis Metaxas based his Greek administration on National Socialist Germany, and he helped a lot of poor Greek people, without murdering political opponents or persecuting Jews. Greece leapt ahead!

His reward? The lamentable Dictatorship of the Generals was foisted onto the Greek people by the CIA.

What was Eva Peron and the Peronist regime but a nationalist populism? Their administration made a special effort to include and encourage Jewish talent where it had been previously excluded.

The British Establishment prefer to whitewash their role in the deaths of millions of Jews, which is why the Hitler (sorry History...) Channel is pumping out more and more nonsense daily, and we have all this crap about the Holocaust and how eveeeil the Nazis were. As if the British State ever did the right thing for anything other than itself...

The American Jews like to deny their role in doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to help European Jews, which is why... well, need I even continue? :rolleyes:

They, the materialists, the vast majority of whom are not Jewish, are using the Holocaust to promote materialistic ideologies.

[Fortis in Arduis]

There is no denying of the holocaust
Israel has yet to replenish its diminishing supply of caustic-soda.

Is English for your first language?

I ask because you write as though you are playing with a new toy. :)

[The Lawspeaker]

_FuV-ugBaaM
That leads me to a question: where was the actual gas chamber ?
If there wasn't a gas chamber that was in use-- how on earth could those condemned be gassed ?


NUTxJ_sz4bE

"In Krakow, the trial of the principal culprits for the Auschwitz concentration camp came to an end before a Polish court. The defendants were German camp guards or members of the German camp administration staff. Unheard-of atrocities against the camp inmates were proved against them, particularly against female prisoners. Altogether nearly 300 thousand people from the most different nations died in the Aushcwitz concentration camp."

"The court sentenced 23 of the accused to death, six to life sentences, ten to lengthy jail terms, one was acquitted. The Auschwitz concentration camp remains as it stands today as a monument of shame to the lasting memory of it's 300 thousand victims."


This info clearly dove-tales with the International Red Cross documents which puts the number under 300K. Remember, this includes all the victims; Poles, Russian POWs, communists, gypsies, and other political undesirables in addition to Jews.

Auschwitz victims: 4 million - per plaque there (1960s).

Early 1990s: new plaque with the new 1.5 mill number in Auschwitz.

Still 6 million total Jew victims!

http://rense.com/1.imagesH/Auch_dees.jpg
In 1948 the full extent of the Holocaust was not yet known. Or was it ?

[Daos]

In 1948 the full extent of the Holocaust was not yet known. Or was it ?

Heh, take a look at this:


Yad Vashem, together with its partners, has collected and recorded here the names and biographical details of half of the six million Jews murdered by the Nazis and their accomplices. Millions more still remain unidentified: It is our collective duty to persist until all their names are recovered.

Do you know of a Holocaust Victim? Submit Pages of Testimony and send photographs of the victims so they will always be remembered.

Source (http://www.yadvashem.org/wps/portal/IY_HON_Welcome)


If they only know the names of 3 million jews that have died during the Second World War, how do they know there were 6 million dead?:confused:

[The Lawspeaker]

Then the six million is probably an estimation. The problem is that a lot of information went missing during the war. Either by bombings, deliberate destruction by perpetrators or the resistance (the resistance frequently targeted civil registries).

[Jarl]

Like Asega said. 6 mln is an estimate. It will never be possible to know all the victims by their surname. Particularly that whole communities were often disrupted, displaced and exterminated.

[SwordoftheVistula]

On the other hand, there are many cases of people reported as having been 'killed in the holocaust' and later found alive. Probably many more who were middle aged or older and fled to the US, Israel, or some other place after the war, also the 'iron curtain' likely inhibited family reunions and was a cause of reported deaths.

[Crux]

Isn't a holocaust denial a ''positive thought'' ? Why have laws that go against ''positive thoughts'' even if those might seem delusional to some.

[Jarl]

Isn't a holocaust denial a ''positive thought'' ?

Um... please explain?

[Crux]

Um... please explain?

What is there to explain ? The thought of 6 million less victims in a war is a positive thought at it's core.

[Jarl]

What is there to explain ?

...the sense in which you see Holocaust denial as a "positive thought"?


The thought of 6 million less victims in a war is a positive thought at it's core.

The thought that there was no planned mass-murder and no extermination of Jews and that Holocaust is a lie is not the same as the thought "of 6 million less victims".

[Klärchen]

The thought that there was no planned mass-murder and no extermination of Jews and that Holocaust is a lie is not the same as the thought "of 6 million less victims".
Absolutely true, Jarl! Besides, one must be very ignorant to deny historical facts that are even testified by living witnesses.

[Jarl]

Absolutely true, Jarl! Besides, one must be very ignorant to deny historical facts that are even testified by living witnesses.

People all too often believe in what they want to believe. They dismiss the evidence that does not suit them and cling on to that tiny scrap of 0.000001 probablility against all odds. Thats disabling any discussion.

[Klärchen]

People all too often believe in what they want to believe. They dismiss the evidence that does not suit them and cling on to that tiny scrap of 0.000001 probablility against all odds. Thats disabling any discussion.
That's true, and this does not only apply to the denial of the Holocaust... :rolleyes:

[Praamžius]

Jew's and one Georgian man did holocaust of intellegents in Russia and ex-soviet republics which number of victims is far bigger than 6 million's.

[Grey]

The thought that there was no planned mass-murder and no extermination of Jews and that Holocaust is a lie is not the same as the thought "of 6 million less victims".

You completely missed the point. Or are you saying that you wouldn't prefer that the Holocaust hadn't happened.

[Zyklop]

Besides, one must be very ignorant to deny historical facts that are even testified by living witnesses.Especially when any questioning of these witnesses is punished with prison.

[SwordoftheVistula]

Absolutely true, Jarl! Besides, one must be very ignorant to deny historical facts that are even testified by living witnesses.

These jews couldn't possibly have any animus towards the nazis which would lead them to exaggerate or even lie could they?

[Kadu]

These jews couldn't possibly have any animus towards the nazis which would lead them to exaggerate or even lie could they?

I believe that the holocaust as a plan of mass murder may have been exagerated. When i visited Auschwitz and Birkenau i realised that there was a logistic discrepancy which goes against the story that millions were killed, not even if the ovens and the gas chambers were working day and night non stop that would be possible.
However it seems very clear that the Nazis intended to keep Jews in camps for matters of segregation which meant downgrading those people to a infra-Human level and implies a genocide on a long term and that is not excusable under any circumstance and neither there is any justification for such hideous actions.

[Falkata]

I´ve always had an obvious and stupid doubt. If the nazis really wanted to exterminate all of them quickly... Whats the point about spending time and resources sending them in a long trip by train and keeping them in camps? It would be easier kill them directly without all this ceremony i suppose? :p

[d3cimat3d]

I´ve always had an obvious and stupid doubt. If the nazis really wanted to exterminate all of them quickly... Whats the point about spending time and resources sending them in a long trip by train and keeping them in camps? It would be easier kill them directly without all this ceremony i suppose? :p

Because they needed them for slave labor.

[Falkata]

Because they needed them for slave labor.

But most of them were killed just when they arrived to the camp, so why the long trip?

[Wotan88]

First of all - it doesn't matter if you are holocaust negationist or not - people shouldn't be imprisoned because of their worldview! EU laws allow them to put "negationists" in jail. Nice "freedom of speech".

No matter if, say, Irving is right or not - he is historician and he is free to publish historical books and thesis, no matter what these thesis contain. If I for example say that Genghis Khan haven't murdered inhabitants of Samarkand, I surely wouldn't be imprisoned. But it's same "negationism" as with holocaust!

It seems that EU laws put jewish people higher than any other. Saying something against them is condemned as terrible act of antisemitism and one should be jailed for that. But if jew would insult Polish person, no one would even notice. "Justice"...

Also, I don't understand this jewish mentality. Since when nation should be proud of it's failures? As far, as I remember, healthy nations remember and "worship" battles that they won and lost little amount of soldiers. It's almost compliment to say "you've lost even less soldiers!", while saying that they have lost more soldiers is an insult. It's a wicked mentality to be proud of your failures. One should of course remember about, say, fallen heroes and so on, but he/she shouldn't worship defeat.

But now, about whole holocaust thing. Many people see it in "black or white" manner - either there was a holocaust with 6 millions of jews killed or there was no such thing and concentration camps were luxurious resorts. But most people don't even think about "grey" possibility.

I myself really doubt in gas chamber theory. Arguments of holocaust negationists + pure logic convinced me to that. But it doesn't change the fact, that concentration camps weren't nice places either. People weren't supposed to live in luxuries there, there were people dying for sure. But 6 million of victims is ridiculous number, waaaay exaggerated. It wasn't intend of Germans to exterminate those jews. By the way, Nomad is totally right here, I agree in 100%.

[cywil]

But most of them were killed just when they arrived to the camp, so why the long trip?

Simply to conceal the fact that the killing was going on.
The Nazi went to great lengths to hide their intentions from the victims to the last moment. They feared they might be more difficult to "manage" and may fight back or attempt escape. They resorted to appalling ploys like luring the starving Warsaw Jews, that they imprisoned in a walled ghetto, on the trains to death camps, by offering those that volunteered food rations. They carefully staged the process of denying the Jews human rights: first they degraded them to second sort citizens, unprotected by laws, then they "lawfully" robbed them, then branded and imprisoned, then starved, crowded and deprived of medical help and finally executed. The gradual process was meant to atomize and disarm the communities. The final blow had to come as a surprise.
They also wanted to prevent the news of their “final solution” to spread among western Europeans. Such news might have resulted in more opposition among the population there, more support for resistance groups and more efforts on the part of the allies to defeat them. Advertising of such deeds meant trouble. Compare the German policy of denying their involvement in the bombardment of Guernicca or Franco’s regime claims that the Guerniccans bombed and burned themselves. Such lies and deceptions are an integral part of mesmerizing the victim before devouring it, that all genocidal, totalitarian regimes of the 20th century exhibited. Last time such chilling attitudes were shown by the Serb commanders in Srebrenica, in their dealings with the Dutch UN peace forces there, who foolishly encouraged the Bosnians to gather under the "UN protection".(the Bosnians would be better off dispersed and in hiding - more difficult for the Serbs to find and execute all of them)
Another reasons to transport the European Jews for extermination to German occupied Poland was the simple fact that majority of them already lived there. So once the Nazi Germans set up the machine of killing for the over three million of Polish Jews it was feasible to them to transport the rest of the Jews to those already functioning death factories.
The present denials are a result and continuation of this cynicist Nazi propaganda of lies and deception. And so is the debate over the exact number of victims. If whole extended families and whole towns and villages were exterminated who is to testify and prove what went on?

[Cato]

The holocaust is the new Jewish religion; they say "never again" and all but a small minority shits on their heritage and past (not Jewishness per se, but the Torah, their 613 weird religious laws, their angry deity and so forth). As far as earlier Jewish-related "holocausts" are concerned, such as with the Romans, I feel that they largely got what they deserved- for being louts. The Nazi holocaust isn't even much of an issue to me- Jews claim it happened, will happen again unless they destroy/demoralize all "antisemites," swear by the magical six million rather than by their jealous wargod, and cry shrilly when men like Zundel or Duke stand up and have something to say about what a bunch of hypocrites most of them are.

I've read that the numbers were fudged and that it took the Jews a while to arrive at the number of six million. Maybe it's true, maybe not. I don't care myself, but the Jewish critics of holocaust denial are vociferous, even attacking other Jews like the late Israel Shahak and even Noam Chumpsky. I guess this makes such Jews "Jewish antisemites" or somesuch, but it shows just how vicious the attack dogs are. Denying the Nazi massacre of the Jews should be no more a crime than, say, denying that Europeans gave Amerindians blankets laced with small pox to thin their numbers out or the Rape of Nanking by the Japanese (and I've encountered Japanese who deny it ever took place!). The inflated numbers of the Nazi holocaust make it a hot-button issue and Jews can't seem to grasp that genocides have been conducted throughout history and, in many cases, are being conducted right now- only they have been persecuted and killed off in droves. This ridiculous notion has gotten so bad that guys like Zundel are tossed in the slammer for denying/revising the Nazi holocaust. Blah.

[Lulletje Rozewater]

In one of the posts somebody mentioned the honor of a soldier etc
I came across this one below which is typical

How much does Germany pay to Israel for WWII? I would accurate, verifiable figures please.

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-297051.html



From the German Embassy's website:

http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/diplo/en/Laender/Israel.html

"Since the conclusion of the Luxembourg Agreement of 1952 (payment of some EUR 1.53 billion), atonement and reparation has been a major political issue in relations between Israel and the Federal Republic of Germany. Total German reparations at the end of 2000 amounted to roughly EUR 55 billion, some 40% of this going to Israel or recipients in Israel. About EUR 256 million is paid out annually in compensation pensions (largely under the Federal Compensation Act) and related payments to recipients in Israel. Added to this are substantial compensatory social security payments and payments for the equalization of burdens. Following the establishment of the Foundation, Remembrance, Responsibility and Future, in 2000, compensation has also been paid from its funds to former victims of forced labour.

Israeli interests in reparation and restitution are also represented by the Jewish Claims Conference (CC). The CC disburses one-off payments and monthly pensions to hardship cases who are not eligible for compensation under the Federal Compensation Act."

Forget about gas chambers and the like,sucking Germany dry is criminal in my book,but it appears nothing is done by the West to stop this criminal act. Add to this the fast sums paid by the USA since 1959 ( I believe it is between 3 to 5 billion US dollars per annum)



Have a look at these sites
http://www.google.co.za/search?q=What+did+the+jews+asked+Germany+for+compe nsation+till+2006&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

[Cato]

The Jews shook Germany down pretty good for reparations after WW2.

[Bari]

I dont doubt that theese camps excisted and that attocities were made against Jews and that they lived in inhumane conditions. But 6 millions sounds extreme, and as it has been pointed out it might be exaggarated. And if they are so sure on whether this has taken place and theese numbers are facts, why can't it even be discussed or be analysed again? That just makes it more suspicious i think.

All theese conspiracy theorists denying the Holocaust never happened and the likes are a result of what i would say is wrong approach to the subect, by hushing it down by accusations(nazi,anti-semite,..). I believe it would serve a good purpose to have open discussions about this, as it would for once establish the facts and not give further playground for Holocaust denial as today. Jailing people for speaking their mind about the Holocaust in a critical fashion is only leaving more people sceptical.

[cywil]

"Total German reparations at the end of 2000 amounted to roughly EUR 55 billion, some 40% of this going to Israel or recipients in Israel."

That does not seem like an exorbitant sum - less than EUR 10 000 of compensation per a murdered person, less than EUR 700 per German citizen, or EUR 10 per year per German Citizen, to pay. Compared to the 150 billion given by US banks in bonuses to its top executives in 2009 alone, seems like peanuts. A roughly three month of average salary per each murdered may only be viewed as a symbolic compensation, not a real one. Considering that Nazi Germany robbed these people of everything - life, businesses, real property, savings, personal belongings and collections, and did not even pass on gold fillings extracted from teeth of the murdered, or marital rings pulled off their stiff fingers, I would think that the German state is still in plus, after the WWII "death enterprise".

This is a very good remark though, as it shows that the bottom line for Holocaust denial proponents is not seeking the truth, but avoiding responsibility for the crimes by German State. Therefore it is not surprising that one cannot find any thorough and systematic rebuttal for the enormous mountain of evidence that proves Holocaust as a fact, or to the number of 6 million Jews murdered. All one can hear is spreading misinformation, personal impressions, or, somewhat excused by the enormity of the crime, disbelief by the ignorant. (Not justified though, cause anyone voicing publicly their opinion in such grave matter should bother to honestly seek info about the facts.) And it proves quite neatly why questioning the number of 6 million is at the core of Holocaust denials - it's all about getting away without restituting the damages to the victims.
Same are the claims that since there were other genocides in history there should be no fuss over this one. It used to be that war was a profitable enterprise but it is a high time that the international community stops accepting such attitudes. Countries waging aggressive and genocidal wars should be held fully responsible for restitution of damages and individuals personally involved in the crimes should be convicted of crimes against humanity and jailed for life.

[cywil]

Also, I don't understand this jewish mentality. Since when nation should be proud of it's failures? As far, as I remember, healthy nations remember and "worship" battles that they won and lost little amount of soldiers. It's almost compliment to say "you've lost even less soldiers!", while saying that they have lost more soldiers is an insult. It's a wicked mentality to be proud of your failures. One should of course remember about, say, fallen heroes and so on, but he/she shouldn't worship defeat.


You are mistaking the unarmed civilians for soldiers. How can you consider murder of defenseless men, women and children as soldier casualties in battle, I cannot comprehend. (When at indoor playgrounds at McDonalds I see bars with notes that children shorter than the height of the bar cannot play on the equipment it still strikes me as bad taste and ignorance as it reminds me of the bar that Nazis put up in Auschwitz for children at a selection post: smaller ones went to the gas chamber right away.)
According to your logic victims of crimes like assault or robbery should be ashamed of their losses and not seek justice against the perpetrators.
Cut down this ubermensch nonsense already, for living in Poland you have all the evidence for the Holocaust right in front of you! Sitting on the wall with one leg in the Holocaust denial camp and the other in Poland (you do not seem to deny the concentration camps' existence) does not appear as a well-balanced position. You try to please some pro Nazi members of this forum way too hard with your acrobatic deliberations. "Nie pieprz Pietrze wieprza pieprzem..."*
* from... "Trzy po trzy" by Aleksander Fredro :D

[Wotan88]

I don't deny the existence of concentration camps and I don't say that there were no atrocities towards jewish people, but I deny simple fact of existence of gas chambers. It's impossible that it existed, there are many evidences against that. Same thing with number of victims.

I don't want jews to blame Poles for "holocaust" as they are continously doing. There was no holocaust, at least in way that its officially presented. Why everyone remembers so much about "holocaust" and most people don't even realise, what Holodomor is?

I'll say you, why. In "holocaust" supposed victims are jews, "chosen people". (*) In Holodomor, victims are Slavs, Ukrainians to be exact. Opressors are Soviets, most of them were of jewish ancestry, jews supported Soviet Union, were fleeing there. I think we have answer for Holocaust-Holodomor question. :/

(*) - "...wszyscy są równi, ale świnie (w tym kontekście żydzi) równiejsze..." Orwell

[Tabiti]

There were camps, there were deaths, hunger, diseases, bad conditions, etc. In both regimes, both in Germany and USSR. There were millions of victims, but not only jews.
6 million, gas chambers? I doubt.

[Beorn]

(When at indoor playgrounds at McDonalds I see bars with notes that children shorter than the height of the bar cannot play on the equipment it still strikes me as bad taste and ignorance as it reminds me of the bar that Nazis put up in Auschwitz for children at a selection post: smaller ones went to the gas chamber right away.)

You are joking, right?

[cywil]

You are joking, right?

No.

[The Lawspeaker]

Who are you btw ? Did you introduce yourself to the club and what is your general business here ?

[cywil]

You are joking, right?

No.
And it don’t like either when children’s scouts groups are called “commando” as in Einsatzkommando” or “ Sonderkommando” , or when members of British Royal Family dress up as SS or Gestapo for Halloween.
I would find it less offensive if the Prince, or even all the members of British Royal Family were running around naked on Halloween than when memory of millions of innocent Nazi victims is rediculed.
What I find to be a good joke is the attitude of the Anglo-Saxon justice system towards nudity as represented by the Criminal Code of Canada:
“Nudity

174. (1) Every one who, without lawful excuse,

(a) is nude in a public place, or

(b) is nude and exposed to public view while on private property, whether or not the property is his own,

is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Nude

(2) For the purposes of this section, a person is nude who is so clad as to offend against public decency or order.”
So if a couple is naked and, God forbid, has sex in their own house, without the curtains drawn, they can be prosecuted, if accused by a neighbour with binoculars. Hilariously amusing. So much for the famous Anglo-Saxon freedom… And please pay attention to the definition of nudity above. If I did not know it was from the Criminal Code of Canada I would have thought it comes from some regulation imposed on the Afghani by the Taliban, or from Ahmadinejad’s Iran. Sometimes seemingly opposing cultures may have so much in common!

[Beorn]

No.

Well, no offence, mate, but that's bloody ridiculous. :)


And it don’t like either when children’s scouts groups are called “commando” as in Einsatzkommando” or “ Sonderkommando”

So should we abolish all related Germanic words?


or when members of British Royal Family dress up as SS or Gestapo for Halloween.

It's just a uniform. Halloween is a time to dress up and provoke a fun fear and shock. Its not like the lad went around goosestepping and making his Jewish friends feel inferior.


I would find it less offensive if the Prince, or even all the members of British Royal Family were running around naked on Halloween than when memory of millions of innocent Nazi victims is rediculed.

Each to their own. I'd imagine a lot of holocaust survivors would get off on nakedness and Nazism together.

http://www.salon.com/entertainment/movies/beyond_the_multiplex/feature/2008/04/11/stalags

[cywil]

Each to their own. I'd imagine a lot of holocaust survivors would get off on nakedness and Nazism together.

Good point!
I would like to apologize to anyone who felt offended by my previous post. Just wanted to point out that casual denials of holocaust as found on this forum may be as offensive as pictures of British Royal Family members "clad as to offend against public decency or order".
And do you think that many Holocaust survivors would like to see a "trick or treater" so clad at their doorstep? I am not so sure if that would be just "fun fear and shock".

[Lulletje Rozewater]

"Total German reparations at the end of 2000 amounted to roughly EUR 55 billion, some 40% of this going to Israel or recipients in Israel."

That does not seem like an exorbitant sum - less than EUR 10 000 of compensation per a murdered person, less than EUR 700 per German citizen, or EUR 10 per year per German Citizen, to pay. Compared to the 150 billion given by US banks in bonuses to its top executives in 2009 alone, seems like peanuts. A roughly three month of average salary per each murdered may only be viewed as a symbolic compensation, not a real one. Considering that Nazi Germany robbed these people of everything - life, businesses, real property, savings, personal belongings and collections, and did not even pass on gold fillings extracted from teeth of the murdered, or marital rings pulled off their stiff fingers, I would think that the German state is still in plus, after the WWII "death enterprise".
What has the price of eggs(2009) to do with Germany.1944:D
Besides you go out from the assumption of 6.000.000

What distinguishes the Holocaust from any other mass slaughter in the history of mankind is not, that it was against the Jews, not that so many people were killed, not that it was racist. It is the systematic side of the holocaust that make it so unique. The indiscriminate, bureaucratic and therefore predicable, factory killing of people that were deemed unworthy of living by the democratically elected Governance of the country (this includes: Gays, Roma and Sinti, Jews, to name the three biggest groups).They all were included in the 6.000.000

People knew why they were being prosecuted, because they had been classed as subhuman, there was nothing random about it, it was state philosophy, all machine cogs of the apparatus worked towards it. Independently, maybe, without order, maybe, but with the clear understanding and blessing from the hierarchy.
Even at Wannsee, there is no single piece of paper that says, our five year target is to eliminate all Jews, or something similar.
You have to read between the lines of their planning instructions and railway building plans. Albert Speer plays a much bigger role in this, and his real role is only now really becoming obvious.He was the one,I believe,who came up with the figure of 6.000.000 at his trial.Is this now taken as fact of fiction.
Perception is everything,but always based on a lie.

But how soon it was known in German municipal bureaucracies that there was violent solution to the "Question about the Jews" could have been as early as 1930.
Debating the holocaust or the denial thereof is not a crime.Idiotic governments like Austria make it a crime to deny.





This is a very good remark though, as it shows that the bottom line for Holocaust denial proponents is not seeking the truth, but avoiding responsibility for the crimes by German State.
Balderdash


Therefore it is not surprising that one cannot find any thorough and systematic rebuttal for the enormous mountain of evidence that proves Holocaust as a fact, or to the number of 6 million Jews murdered.
The proof is in the pudding with Roma,Gays,Infantile cherries on top


All one can hear is spreading misinformation, personal impressions, or, somewhat excused by the enormity of the crime, disbelief by the ignorant. (Not justified though, cause anyone voicing publicly their opinion in such grave matter should bother to honestly seek info about the facts.)
My mother gave birth to me,that is a FACT,fact too is that my father may NOT have been my father.That will have to be proven.



And it proves quite neatly why questioning the number of 6 million is at the core of Holocaust denials - it's all about getting away without restituting the damages to the victims.
No problem there,the problem arises with the 1st and 2nd generation restitution.Read my post carefully


Same are the claims that since there were other genocides in history there should be no fuss over this one. It used to be that war was a profitable enterprise but it is a high time that the international community stops accepting such attitudes. Countries waging aggressive and genocidal wars should be held fully responsible for restitution of damages and individuals personally involved in the crimes should be convicted of crimes against humanity and jailed for life.
The death will always be with us:D

[Lulletje Rozewater]

Each to their own. I'd imagine a lot of holocaust survivors would get off on nakedness and Nazism together.

Good point!
I would like to apologize to anyone who felt offended by my previous post. Just wanted to point out that casual denials of holocaust as found on this forum may be as offensive as pictures of British Royal Family members "clad as to offend against public decency or order".
And do you think that many Holocaust survivors would like to see a "trick or treater" so clad at their doorstep? I am not so sure if that would be just "fun fear and shock".

Nothing you have written is offensive.
Nakedness is natural too(see Genesis :p)
Offensive is millions of seals being slaughtered at your doorstep over the years.

Lets not be particular and sectional.
Your heart and and tails of 6.000.000 scorpions rise in glory from the same earth

[Arrow Cross]

I accidently read "Criticism of Hollywood denial".

Birds of a feather...

[Daos]

The holocaust debate between Otto Perge and Dr. Laszlo Karsai in Hungary (http://globalfire.tv/nj/10en/jews/holobattle_in_hungary.htm)

[Klärchen]

"More than 250,000 concentration camp prisoners died in death marches shortly before the end of World War II. Many of them were murdered by German civilians. A new book tries to answer the question why. ..."

Nazi Death Marches: Book Details German Citizens' Role in End of War Killings (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,739518,00.html)