Do you see reproduction as a sort of immortality?

[Han Cholo]

While being severely drunk yesterday I started thinking that a way to achieve immortality, is to reproduce. That is if you consider your whole family line as a single organism and every generation being more cells which are part of the same. But in this way we would eventually all led to being related to the same person back in time. While this is not immortality per se, it's a way of replicating your being even if not in a exact way.

[Mortimer]

not really because we still die as beings with personality, our cells may live onward but also breed out with time lets say after 100 generations we are bred out

[Hrimskegg]

Somebody's a negative Nancy. Yes and no for me. But mostly yes. My reasons are perfectly Heathen.

[Gamera]

Was going to write something myself about Plato's take on this issue, but here's a pretty good article that sums it up:


Love is not a god in the eyes of Diotima. Rather, he is a "great spirit" who is neither mortal nor immortal; he is a messenger between these. According to her reasoning, one loves the good and the beautiful which they have yet to possess. Because Love desires these things, he therefore lacks them, so he cannot be a god. With this distinction made clear, she can develop his characteristic connection to immortality.

Diotima makes the connection that love must desire immortality. She reasons that all people desire, and, therefore love the good. They also wish to possess this good and to keep it forever. "In a word, then, love is wanting to possess the good forever" (Plato 52). This causes mortals to seek out what they love as part of their quest for immortality.

This quest for immortality is best manifested in mortals through reproduction. Love desires not beauty itself, but "Reproduction and birth in beauty" (Plato 53). Beauty, being in harmony with the divine, cannot be anything but beautiful since the goddess Beauty is present at all births. The cycle of reproduction creates an everlasting chain of beauty, the love of which fulfills the most basic desires of love and immortality.

Paternal defense of their offspring is another aspect in which love and immortality are intertwined. Humans, having the ability to reason, are expected to understand the logic behind this. On the other hand, wild animals' tendency toward this requires some explanation.

Diotima states that "mortal nature seeks so far as possible to live forever and be immortal" (Plato 54) and "everything naturally values its own offspring, because it is for the sake of immortality that everything shows this zeal, which is Love" (Plato 55).

All living, mortal beings have the desire to protect their offspring, their tie to immortality. Even more desirable than immortality through reproduction is immortality through the memory of virtue. Diotima "believe(s) that anyone will do anything for the sake of immortal virtue and the glorious fame that follows; and the better the people, the more they will do, for they are all in love with immortality" (Plato 56).

Love and immortality are connected because mortals love immortality. By definition, mortals do not have immortality; because they desire to have it forever, they, by definition love it. Thus, virtuous immortality or immortality through ideas is of the highest regard because its "offspringare immortal themselves, provide(ing) their parents with immortal glory and remembrance" (Plato 57).

Children do not live forever, but do have their own children, and so on and so forth. But in each generation is another degree of separation; ideas and actions live much longer than children and are directly accredited to that person, preserving his immortality and fulfilling his love of it.

Diotima reveals the ultimate "goal of Loving" as finding "something wonderfully beautiful in its nature; the reason for all his earlier labors" (Plato 58) and that something which fulfills this requirement neither comes nor goes, but is eternal. It is always in form. Other beautiful things may share this as they come and go in and out of existence, but this does not take away from the form or its beauty.

It is this ultimate and pure form - beauty - in which everything beautiful is drawn from, which mortals long to find and to keep forever. Seizing immortal beauty makes one immortal, satisfying his love for both beauty and for immortality.

According to Diotima, the way this is obtained is through an older man's guidance of a young boy. He guides him through all beautiful things, using one thing to get to the next, and being informed by these, he finally knows what it is to be beautiful (59). This could be interpreted as Socrates interjecting his own ideas of how philosophy can help one obtain immortality.

Knowledge is beautiful and obtaining absolute knowledge, the aim of philosophy, would be to see beauty in its form, thus guaranteeing immortality. Socrates is of course reiterating Diotima's speech, and could be twisting it in order to fit the occasion of the Symposium: the praise of Love.

Perhaps Socrates believes he can achieve immortality through philosophy. Or perhaps he is justifying his desire for immortality by making it a universal characteristic that all mortals desire just the same. Nonetheless, Diotima's speech has clearly defined the connection of love and immortality: we simply love the idea of immortality; it motivates us to reproduce and also to do great things.

Works Cited
Plato. Symposium. Trans. Alexander Nehamas and Paul Woodruff. Indianapolis, Indiana:
Hackett, 1989.


http://www.helium.com/items/120596-Classical-Lit-Mythology

So, when you say "sort of immortality", then yes, I would vote for yes.

[Virtuous]

oh shit, nothing whatever :D

[Mistic]

There's different kinds of immortality.

Having kids is passing along the genes. That alters because of the other parent's genes. Some parents look at their kids as versions of themselves and push them into reliving what they did. That's not immortality but animal instinct.

Spiritual immortality and physical / godlike immortality are also all different.

Edit: btw rocks are immortal things :)

[Duke]

NO, but i guess cloning would be closer, especially with ability to transfer memories also :D

[Il Principe]

Immortality for your genetic material? Yes.

Is your personality in your genes? No.

And the latter is obviously my answer to this question.

[Hayalet]

If you put an emphasis on "a sort of", then perhaps it is.

[~Nik~]

It approaches this (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=911945) idea.

[Stefan]

Humans are able to transfer mental processes, or patterns in neural activity to other's subconsciously, via social interactions. I believe that's the closest to immortality we can get.

[Breedingvariety]

-Life is a dream, death is awakening;
-Life is ephemeral, death is eternal;
-So when you die, you become immortal.

[SilverKnight]

Offcourse not, reproduction is part of our nature itself.

[Fortis in Arduis]

No, and I don't buy into racial souls or folk souls either.

[Stefan]

According to this (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11893583) article, 98% of our atoms are replaced, yearly.

And here is a deeper (http://www.quora.com/How-long-does-it-take-for-most-of-the-atoms-in-your-body-to-be-replaced-by-others) analysis of the accuracy of this assessment.

So what are we? Like I said earlier, I think we're best represented as a collection of neural pathways. These neural pathways have been proven to transfer to others, through interactions. That means, every time we interact with another conscious person, we impart a bit of our own consciousness, not exactly, but more like a less detailed version. So there is a sort of collective immortality that persists with our species. It is quite interesting of a thought.

[SilverKnight]

According to this (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11893583) article, 98% of our atoms are replaced, yearly.

And here is a deeper (http://www.quora.com/How-long-does-it-take-for-most-of-the-atoms-in-your-body-to-be-replaced-by-others) analysis of the accuracy of this assessment.

So what are we? Like I said earlier, I think we're best represented as a collection of neural pathways. These neural pathways have been proven to transfer to others, through interactions. That means, every time we interact with another conscious person, we impart a bit of our own consciousness, not exactly, but more like a less detailed version. So there is a sort of collective immortality that persists with our species. It is quite interesting of a thought.

Very interesting and makes you think a lot :eek:

I wonder what happens after we die, does the atoms in the soil, air and plants get somehow replaced by ours.

[Norse Sword]

NO. Because immortality is the definition of the perpetual continuance of a single sentient being, since offspring can be radically different than the parents in behavior and mannerism, and carry neither the culture or morals, or social standards of either by choice or force, it is not even in the realm of applicable definition that it could be considered immortality.

Being immortal means being immune to all that kills mortals, and simply reproducing would not guarantee the survival of a specific genetic specimen, since all offspring can be victims of mortality form various causes.

Besides, how many entire bloodlines have been permanently wiped out by war and famine, and disease?

[arcticwolf]

Tying up existence to physical manifestation on a particular planet doomed to be destroyed by a dying star which it will? I don't think this question is really thought out to far into the future. So what happens to the immortality concept when this planet is gone? Other planets, space exploration? Oky dok, what happens when this universe comes to an end?

[Stefan]

Very interesting and makes you think a lot :eek:

I wonder what happens after we die, does the atoms in the soil, air and plants get somehow replaced by ours.

We decompose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposition) through a variety of methods. Since we aren't alive to continually replace our dead cells, overall our material should remain constant, with the exception of decomposition.

[Nameless Son]

Sure do!

[Curtis24]

I've thought of lots of different ideas - we reincarnate in our descendants, we can experience consciousness in our descendants, etc. Who knows?

[Curtis24]

Of one thing I'm sure: successful reproduction leads to something really good.

[Yaroslav]

No because everyone has soul of his own. :coffee: