Demographics of Greece

[Yaroslav]

2006 census

Greeks 10,452,554 93.76%

Albanians 481,663 4.32

Bulgarians 43,981 0.39

Romanians 25,375 0.23

Ukrainians 19,785 0.18

Pakistani 15,830 0.14

Russians 13,635 0.12

Georgians 13,254 0.12

Indians 10,043 0.09

Other 72,413 0.65


Is this census accurate?

There are between 300,000 (estimate published by Greek Helsinki Monitor in 1999) and 200,000 (estimate by Greek government) Roma people in Greece.

Obviously 200,000 doesn't fit into 72,413 "Other" category.

There are 50,000 Turks, 35,000 Armenians, and 5,500 Jews in Greece, that adds up to 90,500 people.

These 90,500 people don't fit into "Other" category.

There are 36,000 Pomaks in Greece and 80,000 - 120,000 Bulgarians in Greece (see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians), yet the census says only 44,000 Bulgarians.

There are 200,000 Arvanites and 600,000 immigrant Albanians in Greece, yet the census only counts immigrant Albanians.

200,000 Arvanites don't fit into 72,413 "Other" category.

Today 40,000 Christian Cham Albanians remain in Greece, they are not counted under Albanian category (that is for immigrants), are they the ones under "Other" category?

There are 200,000 Aromanians and 4,000 Megleno-Romanians in Greece, combined they do not fit into "Other" category.

There are 200,000+ "Slavic Speakers" in Aegean Macedonia (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_speakers_of_Greek_Macedonia), which speak Macedonian language and identify with other Macedonians.

They don't fall under 72,413 "Other" category.

And what 1,000,000+ illegal immigrants that aren't counted in census?

[Queen B]

2006 census
Greeks 10,452,554 93.76%
Albanians 481,663 4.32
Bulgarians 43,981 0.39
Romanians 25,375 0.23
Ukrainians 19,785 0.18
Pakistani 15,830 0.14
Russians 13,635 0.12
Georgians 13,254 0.12
Indians 10,043 0.09
Other 72,413 0.65
Is this census accurate?

No, because usually a census is about CITIZENS of Greece, not citizens AND legal/illegal immigrants.

If this is a general (including immigrants I mean) still can't be accurate, because I doubt that illegals will state their info to be recorded.


There are between 300,000 (estimate published by Greek Helsinki Monitor in 1999) and 200,000 (estimate by Greek government) Roma people in Greece.

There are enough Roma, but I am not sure about the number exactly.


There are 50,000 Turks, 35,000 Armenians, and 5,500 Jews in Greece, that adds up to 90,500 people.
Yes, around that. I am not sure about the number of the Armenians-might be less- , but yes that's around the number.
Jews are NOT Israelis, we are talking about ethnicities, not religions, that's why are not recorded. they are Greeks with another religion (we have Jehova's witness and Catholics as well)


There are 36,000 Pomaks in Greece and 80,000 - 120,000 Bulgarians in Greece (see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians), yet the census says only 44,000 Bulgarians.

Pomaks are Greek citizens of Bulgarian origin (and Muslim religion),
the 80-120.000 (which are not that high anymore) Bulgarians are not.


There are 200,000 Arvanites and 600,000 immigrant Albanians in Greece, yet the census only counts immigrant Albanians.

Arvanites identify as Greek nationals.
Albanian immigrants are most likely even more than 600.000


Today 40,000 Christian Cham Albanians remain in Greece, they are not counted under Albanian category (that is for immigrants), are they the ones under "Other" category?
Maybe they are not as much as you think?


There are 200,000 Aromanians and 4,000 Megleno-Romanians in Greece, combined they do not fit into "Other" category.

Those are different than ''Roma''? If yes, the 200.000 number is impossible.


There are 200,000+ "Slavic Speakers" in Aegean Macedoniawhich speak Macedonian language and identify with other Macedonians.

This is hilarious. The so-called ''Macedonians'' are not more than 5.000


And what 1,000,000+ illegal immigrants that aren't counted in census?
You can never know...

[Yaroslav]

By Roma I mean Gypsy people.

[Queen B]

By Roma I mean Gypsy people.

I thought so.

But Roman and Aromanians aren't the same?

[Γέλως]

2006 census
There are 200,000 Arvanites...
200,000 Arvanites don't fit into 72,413 "Other" category.

There are 200,000 Aromanians and 4,000 Megleno-Romanians in Greece, combined they do not fit into "Other" category.

Having read several of your posts, it's quite apparent that you don't seem to comprehend that Arvanites and Aromanians (Vlachs) feel Greeks and don't want minority status. So here's my proposal: Why don't you come to Greece and tell them in right in their face that they are not Greeks? Perhaps after the punch in your face, you'll comprehend it...

Apart from that, the other stats you provide are more or less bullcrap.

[Ushtari]

Having read several of your posts, it's quite apparent that you don't seem to comprehend that Arvanites and Aromanians (Vlachs) feel Greeks and don't want minority status. So here's my proposal: Why don't you come to Greece and tell them in right in their face that they are not Greeks? Perhaps after the punch in your face, you'll comprehend it...

Apart from that, the other stats you provide are more or less bullcrap.
Is that why they call themselves Arberesh in their own language? :rolleyes:

[Γέλως]

Is that why they call themselves Arberesh in their own language? :rolleyes:
...so?

[Ushtari]

...so?
Arberesh is the Albanian version of "Albanian"

[Γέλως]

Arberesh is the Albanian version of "Albanian"I don't know how "Arvanites" is called in Arvanitika, but I'm quite sure that "Albanian" is "Shqiptar" in Albanian. "Αρβανίτης" and "Αλβανός", are obviously of the same root anyway, that doesn't make most Arvanites view Albanians friendly.

[Ushtari]

I don't know how "Arvanites" is called in Arvanitika, but I'm quite sure that "Albanian" is "Shqiptar" in Albanian. "Αρβανίτης" and "Αλβανός", are obviously of the same root anyway, that doesn't make most Arvanites view Albanians friendly.
Arvanite is just the Greek interpretation of "Arberesh" wich all Albanians called themselves prior to Skenderbegs death.

Different interpretations from different languages:

Arberesh = Illyrian (original)
Albanian = Latin
Arvanite = Greek
Arbanas = Slavic
Arnaut(interpreted from Greek interpretation "arvanite") = Turkish

[Queen B]

I don't care how they call themselves.
Fact is that Arvanites and Vlachs were asked by the Greek state to be a minority and enjoy the benefits of minority, and they rejected it , in fact highly offended, because they find it crazy to be a minority in their own country

[Yaroslav]

I don't care how they call themselves.
Fact is that Arvanites and Vlachs were asked by the Greek state to be a minority and enjoy the benefits of minority, and they rejected it , in fact highly offended, because they find it crazy to be a minority in their own country

If it is their country then why doesn't Greece make Aromanian and Albanian languages official?

[Queen B]

If it is their country then why doesn't Greece make Aromanian and Albanian languages official?
Huh?
And if a chinese speaker/national considers himself Greek would make Chinese language official?

That's why there are minority languages. The question was made and ''leave it or take it ''

[Rron]

Huh?
And if a chinese speaker/national considers himself Greek would make Chinese language official?

That's why there are minority languages. The question was made and ''leave it or take it ''


Like we dont know with what kind of oppresions they would face if they had chose option ''take it'', or can you assure us that they were not forced to chose option ''leave it''.
When i say forced i mean about a lot of enforcements which can be used in such cases, like for example those economical, social and other types of negative discriminations.

[Queen B]

Like we dont know with what kind of oppresions they would face if they had chose option ''take it'', or can you assure us that they were not forced to chose option ''leave it''.
When i say forcedm i mean about a lot of enforcements which can be used in such cases, like for example those economical, social and other types of negative discriminations.

This consipiracy is even worst than the Masonic one, and we are not Masons.
If Greek state wouldn't want, wouldn' ask in a first place.

Keep in mind that there are minority SCHOOLS in Thrace, when the minority is a religious one.
That means that Greek state was not forced to have minority schools, only religious temples for the exact religion, but they also have minority schools, for a group of people way more ''dangerous'' (for your consipacy theories) compared to Arvanites and Vlachs.

[Rron]

This consipiracy is even worst than the Masonic one, and we are not Masons.
If Greek state wouldn't want, wouldn' ask in a first place.

Keep in mind that there are minority SCHOOLS in Thrace, when the minority is a religious one.
That means that Greek state was not forced to have minority schools, only religious temples for the exact religion, but they also have minority schools, for a group of people way more ''dangerous'' (for your consipacy theories) compared to Arvanites and Vlachs.
No im basing my question in facts not in conspirative theories,for example are you informed about Cham case?

[Queen B]

No im basing my question in facts not in conspirative theories
I saw no facts. I saw you saying BS about why they said no.

for example are you informed about Cham case?
Irrelevant, but yes.
I guess you mean those that collaborated with the Nazis in WW2? Yeap, sure.

[memobekes]

Under the Greek Constitution, ethnic minorities are not officially recognized.

The three traditional Islamic communities residing in Thráki - the Turks, the Bulgarian-speaking Pomaks and Gypsies-Romas - are commonly referred to as belonging to the "Muslim minority" of Greece, hence usage of their ethnic terms are strictly prohibited.

[Rron]

I saw no facts. I saw you saying BS about why they said no.
Ok now explain me something, considering fact that church have big role in your society to not say that your state isnt separated fully from religion in your case church, even while its parlamentary republic how is possible that only recognised minority group in Grece is muslim minority of Thrace, not any ethnicity but only religious group.


Irrelevant, but yes.
I guess you mean those that collaborated with the Nazis in WW2? Yeap, sure.
So you deported them from their homes, and now they dont have access in their properties in their native land and those properties are alienated, so isnt this one of discriminative enforcement about which ones i was talking about.?

[Queen B]

Ok now explain me something, considering fact that church have big role in your society to not say that your state isnt separated fully from religion in your case church, even while its parlamentary republic how is possible that only recognised minority group in Grece is muslim minority of Thrace, not any ethnicity but only religious group.
The role of the church is not as big as you think. Being an atheist myself, I have never had any problem.
And neither any kind of religion, even though Greece is supossed to have a high rate of Orthodox Christians in the total population.
You can find Jews,Muslims, Catholics, Jeohovas, Evangelistics,etc existing and practising their faith.
Jewish (older, I guess) and Muslim (more populous) are the officially recognised if I am not mistaken.

After treaty of Lausanne the agreement that was made was about a religious -Muslim- minority (even though it also operates as ethnic, hence the minority language schools). The other ethic ''minorities ''are either very small in population to form a minority, or they denied the status of a language minority (Vlachs, Arvanites).




So you deported them from their homes, and now they dont have acces in their properties in their native land and those properties are alienated, so isnt this one of enforcement about which ones i was talking about.?

What part of the word traitor you can't understand?
If someone is a traitor in Greece, should get the fuck over here and never come back.
I don't care if they own a fortune, or a rock, or a chewing gum.
Any fucking traitor should get out of here and never ever come back. In the past, in the present and in the future.

[Rron]

The role of the church is not as big as you think. Being an atheist myself, I have never had any problem.
And neither any kind of religion, even though Greece is supossed to have a high rate of Orthodox Christians in the total population.
You can find Jews,Muslims, Catholics, Jeohovas, Evangelistics,etc existing and practising their faith.
Jewish (older, I guess) and Muslim (more populous) are the officially recognised if I am not mistaken.

After treaty of Lausanne the agreement that was made was about a religious -Muslim- minority (even though it also operates as ethnic, hence the minority language schools). The other ethic ''minorities ''are either very small in population to form a minority, or they denied the status of a language minority (Vlachs, Arvanites).
This is not condition to be considered minority what are talking about ,lol this signify and force opinion that you are more like cultural nation rather than nation based on ethnic identity.
I dont know about Vlachs , but about Arvanites you have my opinion in earlier posts.




What part of the word traitor you can't understand?
If someone is a traitor in Greece, should get the fuck over here and never come back.
I don't care if they own a fortune, or a rock, or a chewing gum.
Any fucking traitor should get out of here and never ever come back. In the past, in the present and in the future.
Which kind of part of word native land you didnt understood, that part was annexed by you after Balkan war, so how they can be considered traitors while they were not Greeks but Albanians, how ?

[Queen B]

This is not a condition to be considered minority what are you talking about ,lol this signify and force opinion that you are more like cultural nation rather than nbation based on ethnic identity.
Huh? huh?
How that makes sense? Seriously?
Let's take it one-by-one, again.

Greco-Turkish wars. Greece and Turkey SIGNED a treaty. From that, there was a Muslim minority formed in Thrace.
So far so good, right? Understand it so far?

What other ''ethnics'', with Greek citizenship exist?
(A sizeable amount)
Arvanites and Vlachs.




Which kind of part of word native land you didnt understood, that part was annexed by you after Balkan war, so how they can be considered traitors while they were not Greeks but Albanians, how ?
It is part of Greece, and within Greek borders.Correct? Correct.
They collaborated AGAINST Greece and Greek state. Correct? Correct

It is SO simple.

[Rron]

Greco-Turkish wars. Greece and Turkey SIGNED a treaty. From that, there was a Muslim minority formed in Thrace.
So far so good, right? Understand it so far?
As i know there exist some conventions about who can be considered minority, and that cant be based only in some treaty lol that is more like bilateral question of your current fairs between two countries.


What other ''ethnics'', with Greek citizenship exist?
(A sizeable amount)
Arvanites and Vlachs.
that doesnt mean they are Greeks another sample of how you are cultural nation.
Again i dont know about vlachs but about Arvanites you have my opinion in earlier posts.


It is part of Greece, and within Greek borders.Correct? Correct.
They collaborated AGAINST Greece and Greek state. Correct? Correct

It is SO simple.
No it was annexed by you, read it you can find that in every history book, except probably in yours.

[Queen B]

As i know there exist some conventions about who can be considered minority, and that cant be based only in some treaty lol that is more like bilateral question of your current fairs between two countries.

I am don't know about that. I m pretty sure it has to do about the size, too.
I mean, Greece has 11 millions .
If we have 500 or even 10.000 Chinese nationals, it would be crazy to make a chinese minority, especially if they are not concetrated in one place.
The Turks of the Muslim minority are all in one area, and are sizable enough, that's why even by being a religious minority, they are granted minority schools.


No it was annexed by you, read it you can find that in every history book, except probably in yours.
Is it part of Greece or not?Is it within Greek borders or not?
What's is SO hard to answer?
Its a simple question. You open a map, you look at it, and answer.

[Rron]

Is it part of Greece or not?Is it within Greek borders or not?
What's is SO hard to answer?
Its a simple question. You open a map, you look at it, and answer.
We were under ottomans for around500 years but not anymore,Kosova was under Bulgarian rule too , also annexed by Serbia for many years but not anymore , so your maps will remain only in history just like theirs.

[Onur]

What part of the word traitor you can't understand?
If someone is a traitor in Greece, should get the fuck over here and never come back.
I don't care if they own a fortune, or a rock, or a chewing gum.
Any fucking traitor should get out of here and never ever come back. In the past, in the present and in the future.

Is it part of Greece or not? Is it within Greek borders or not? What's is SO hard to answer? Its a simple question. You open a map, you look at it, and answer.


I guess you mean those that collaborated with the Nazis in WW2? Yeap, sure.
Next time when you talk about the Greeks who had to leave Anatolia after your bloody invasion, i will remind your own words to you. And you blatantly call that as a "genocide" (!!!)

I will re-word it like this;

"What part of the word traitor you can't understand?
If someone is a traitor in Turkey, should get the fuck over here and never come back. I don't care if they own a fortune, or a rock, or a chewing gum. Any fucking traitor should get out of here and never ever come back. In the past, in the present and in the future.

Is it part of Turkey or not? Is it within Turkish borders or not? What's is SO hard to answer? Its a simple question. You open a map, you look at it, and answer.

I guess you mean those that collaborated with the Greeks during the invasion of Anatolia? Yeap, sure.

I also noticed that you are considering the territories you annexed few decades ago before WW-2 as your own and keep reminding him like "is it within Greek borders" but somehow, you never consider the same for our 950 years old Turkish territories in Anatolia? Ahh let me give the answer;
These places including Albania were supposedly the 10.000 year old hellenic lands, right?

[Crn Volk]

Former Greek PM Mr. Mitsotakis;

:"I understood the Skopje issue from the very beginning in its real dimension.

…The problem for me was to avoid the emergence of a second minority problem

in Western Macedonia. (...) For me, the aim had always been that that Republic

should clearly state that there is no Slavomacedonian minority in Greece and

to commit itself through international treaties to stop all irredentist propaganda

against Greece. That was they key in the Greek-Skopjan [Macedonian] dispute."

[iNird]

No offense to the Albanian posters, but if Arvanites wanted to consider themselves Albanian they would do so. If their rights are violated, you would assume they would protest or create political parties or do something. Everything I read has pointed to the contrary. They're assimilated and it seems the majority of them do not want to be associated with Albanians.

Now if you want to speak in a historic context, that's another story. But I don't see the point of defending for their rights when they don't do it themselves.....

[Onur]

No offense to the Albanian posters, but if Arvanites wanted to consider themselves Albanian they would do so. If their rights are violated, you would assume they would protest or create political parties or do something. Everything I read has pointed to the contrary. They're assimilated and it seems the majority of them do not want to be associated with Albanians.
What Albanians of Greece thinks is irrelevant here. Regardless of what they think or say, this doesn't changes the fact that they are Albanians who learned modern Greek language only a century ago and pretending to be Greeks today.

The issue here is Greece being the sole country in Europe without any official minority and their idiotic claim of modern Greeks being the descendants of ancient hellenes from 10.000 BC.

Greek government officially calls Turkish people there as "hellenic muslims". So, they even deny their identity and calls them as Greeks.

[ficuscarica]

I find it rather strange that someone from Turkey, which still denies a big genocide and which is built on originally Greek land, has the guts to critisize Greece... just saying.

[Peyrol]

"Greek bloody invasion of Turkey..." ?

Are you kidding? Your people ravaged Med coasts for centuries, genocized armenians, kurds and pontic greeks (who lived in Trebizond since classical times) and you are whining for a "brutal greek invasion"? :lol:

[ficuscarica]

Perduellio, you forget that they invaded whole South-Eastern Europe and tried to conquer Central Europe, too.

And today they, again, are trouble maker no.1 in Germany and also make lots of trouble in other Western countries, such as the Netherlands. Turkey has to leave its exaggerated nationalism and its islamism in order to get rid of its bad reputation. But with Erdogan things seem to go in a very bad direction...

[Peyrol]

Perduellio, you forget that they invaded whole South-Eastern Europe and tried to conquer Central Europe, too.

Yeah, if weren't for germans, magyar and serbs in Wien, and before for venetians, savoiarde/piedmonteis, genoeses ans spanish fleets in Lepanto now we would probabily name "Erem Osmanoglu" or something similar.

Ask to Ruhrgebiet people how good are turks :lol:

[ficuscarica]

Perduellio, don´t forget the Poles, they were important for the rescue of Vienna, too.

[El Gre]

What Albanians of Greece thinks is irrelevant here. Regardless of what they think or say, this doesn't changes the fact that they are Albanians who learned modern Greek language only a century ago and pretending to be Greeks today.

What a statement from a Modern day Turk.
The original hoard that came from Mongolia was like what ? 300,000 maybe?
Today there are 60 million 'Turks' . If we apply your logic then what percentage of people in Turkey are actually not Turks?? 60-70% ??
How many Jannisarries are rabid Turks like you?
I mean one of your soccer goalies was blue eyed and blond haired, who knows what his ancestors were. Ukranian, Russian maybe Bulgarian. He can be a Turk , but the Arvanites who have been on Greek soil for over 500 years are pretend Greeks!??!

[Queen B]

Next time when you talk about the Greeks who had to leave Anatolia after your bloody invasion, i will remind your own words to you. And you blatantly call that as a "genocide" (!!!)
Onur, don't jump into discussions if you have nothing clever to say.
I only speak about genocide when I am talking about Pontic Greeks, and not Greeks that got exiled from Smyrne, or anything.
Read before you talk, that's the normal thing to do.


Now if you want to speak in a historic context, that's another story. But I don't see the point of defending for their rights when they don't do it themselves.....
Noone denied that they are Albanians by ancestry.

What Albanians of Greece thinks is irrelevant here. Regardless of what they think or say, this doesn't changes the fact that they are Albanians who learned modern Greek language only a century ago and pretending to be Greeks today.

What Arvanites think, is actually part of the thread. Your post are always , excpet from obsessed, are irrelevant.
Arvanites, are speaking Arvanitika, KNOW about what their origin is , but they FEEL Greeks.
What is YOUR problem with that?
You feel Turks as well, while you are Armenians,Kurds,Greeks,Balkanese,etc.
So?
Also,go tell the Americans as well, not to feel Americans, because 100-200 or 500 years ago were Irish/French/British, whatever. I didn't see you talking about it at any thread, but, then again, you have no obsession with Americans...


The issue here is Greece being the sole country in Europe without any official minority and their idiotic claim of modern Greeks being the descendants of ancient hellenes from 10.000 BC.
We have official minorities, and UNLIKE YOU, we respect them.
We don't have 15 MILLION (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) Kurds that are not a recognised minority, we don't create pogroms in '55 to force them leave, and our RELIGIOUS minorities enjoy not only special benefits, but the benefits that an ethnic minority has.

So, Onur, gimme a break, and stop being so obsessed with Greeks.
You give Turks an even worst name than the one they have.


Greek government officially calls Turkish people there as "hellenic muslims". So, they even deny their identity and calls them as Greeks.
Your complains to your country, ''mister''.
Did Turkey signed the treaty of Lausanne, or not?
I know that you have been tought to blame Greece about everything, but it would be wiser if you think a bit on your own.

I find it rather strange that someone from Turkey, which still denies a big genocide and which is built on originally Greek land, has the guts to critisize Greece... just saying.
Well, you will read/see everything here :cool:

What a statement from a Modern day Turk.
The original hoard that came from Mongolia was like what ? 300,000 maybe?
Today there are 60 million 'Turks' . If we apply your logic then what percentage of people in Turkey are actually not Turks?? 60-70% ??
How many Jannisarries are rabid Turks like you?
I mean one of your soccer goalies was blue eyed and blond haired, who knows what his ancestors were. Ukranian, Russian maybe Bulgarian. He can be a Turk , but the Arvanites who have been on Greek soil for over 500 years are pretend Greeks!??!
Nuh, Turks are natives, forgot it ? :lol:

[poiuytrewq0987]

I'm no geography whiz but I'm pretty sure Greece is closer to Anatolia than Gokturkey is. :coffee:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/G%C3%B6kturksAD551-572.png/250px-G%C3%B6kturksAD551-572.png

vs...

http://www.utexas.edu/courses/greeksahoy!/greek_colonies_550.jpg

[iNird]

What Albanians of Greece thinks is irrelevant here.


STFU you mongol fuck. What Albanians have to say on this issue is not any more or less worthy than what any other "insert nationality" thinks.


Regardless of what they think or say, this doesn't changes the fact that they are Albanians who learned modern Greek language only a century ago and pretending to be Greeks today.


Sorta like a pomak pretending to be a Turk today?

:D

Your nationality has it's fair share of people whose grandparents couldn't speak Turkish. In Turkey there are a large amount of Albanian elders that can't speak a lick of Turkish. Same shit.


The issue here is Greece being the sole country in Europe without any official minority and their idiotic claim of modern Greeks being the descendants of ancient hellenes from 10.000 BC.


Which minorities does Tureky recognize? I thought both countries recognized minorities under Treaty of Lausanne?



Greek government officially calls Turkish people there as "hellenic muslims". So, they even deny their identity and calls them as Greeks.

How does the Turkish state refer to the different ethnicities in Turkey? Are they counted as Albanian, Bosnian, Bulgarian, Circassian, Georgian, etc or simply Turks?

[Rron]

STFU you mongol fuck. What Albanians have to say on this issue is not any more or less worthy than what any other "insert nationality" thinks.
Its kinda ridiculous that his statement because we were discussing exactly about Arvanites which are Albanians, and saying that Albanian opinion is not worth its kinda delusive, but like always he intervened with his bs in threads which have nothing to do with him and i withdrew from the discussion.

[Queen B]

Its kinda ridiculous that his statement because we were discussing exactly about Arvanites which are Albanians, and saying that Albanian opinion is not worth its kinda delusive, but like always he intervened with his bs in threads which have nothing to do with him and i withdrew from the discussion.
Guys, guys, don't mind about Onur. He just want to pop up in any thread to say his bullshit about Greeks, and if not Greeks, then Albanians or anyother in the region :lol:
His opinion is insignificant

[Yaroslav]

Guys, guys, don't mind about Onur. He just want to pop up in any thread to say his bullshit about Greeks, and if not Greeks, then Albanians or anyother in the region :lol:
His opinion is insignificant

http://www.crossed-flag-pins.com/Friendship-Pins/Albania/Flag-Pins-Albania-Greece.jpg

[poiuytrewq0987]

http://www.crossed-flag-pins.com/Friendship-Pins/Albania/Flag-Pins-Albania-Greece.jpg

Could you explain to us more about your "Orthodox unity" viewpoint? I ask because there is no such as Orthodox Unity and to ask for one is akin to gassing 6 million Jews.

[Yaroslav]

Could you explain to us more about your "Orthodox unity" viewpoint? I ask because there is no such as Orthodox Unity and to ask for one is akin to gassing 6 million Jews.

My username is old. I'm not even Orthodox Christian anymore, I'm pure Biblical Christian and don't adhere to any church. I'll change it when I can.

[Petros Houhoulis]

2006 census

...

Is this census accurate?

No, The census in Greece takes place every 10 years, and it takes place in years ending with 1. Thus, there was a census at 2001, and another at 2011. No official census took place at 2006.


...

And what 1,000,000+ illegal immigrants that aren't counted in census?

Actually, the illegal immigrants are also counted in every official census, if they show up. Usually they are no hiding, because the detailed results are not handed over to the police


If it is their country then why doesn't Greece make Aromanian and Albanian languages official?

This could only happen if the Greek citizens of Albanian extract demand so. Actually I've read once from an Albanian that there was such a demand during the 19th century by members of the Greek parliament, but I have never seen proof of it.

If there is no demand by Greek citizens to have the Albanian language recognized as official (and there is not so far) nothing can happen, becuase Greece is a DEMOCRACY.


Like we dont know with what kind of oppresions they would face if they had chose option ''take it'', or can you assure us that they were not forced to chose option ''leave it''.
When i say forced i mean about a lot of enforcements which can be used in such cases, like for example those economical, social and other types of negative discriminations.

We shall never learn as long as they do not take such an option. As for the "oppression" and the "discriminations"... Several Arvanites have reached the higher echelons of the Greek society and state without problem. Pangalos is one of them and his granpa the dictator was considering giving minority rights to... himself. Unfortunately, he never managed to implement them. Well, he was a dictator after all...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodoros_Pangalos


Deputy Prime Minister of Greece

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodoros_Pangalos_(general)


Major General Theodoros Pangalos (Greek: Θεόδωρος Πάγκαλος) (11 January 1878 – 26 February 1952) was a Greek soldier and politician. A distinguished staff officer and an ardent Venizelist and anti-royalist, Pangalos played a leading role in the September 1922 revolt that deposed King Constantine I and in the establishment of the Second Hellenic Republic. In June 1925 Pangalos staged a bloodless coup, and his assumption of power was recognized by the National Assembly which named him Prime Minister. As a "constitutional dictator" he ruled the country until his overthrow in August 1926. From April 1926 until his deposition, he also occupied the office of President of the Republic.


Relations with Albania
Pangalos was an Albanian-speaker, and declared himself proud of his Arvanite heritage.[1] His priority in establishing good relations with Albania was soon materialized by four agreements between the two governments, among others addressing the confiscation of Cham properties before 1926, when Greek refugees from Asia Minor were settled in the region. This agreement stated that Chams would be compensated at least as much as foreign citizens or ethnic Greeks.[2] In a public statement he also recognized that Chams were an ethnic minority and promised that Albanian schools would be opened in the region.[3][4]


No im basing my question in facts not in conspirative theories,for example are you informed about Cham case?

Yes. The Christian Chams were assimilated into the Greek society, while the Muslims were resented as former oppressors (The Ottoman empire was based upon religious divisions favoring the Muslims over other religions) and discriminated against, but the oppression was not harsh enough to produce a rebellion prior to WWII. During WWII they allied themselves with the Italians (who applied a similar scheme in Albania and imported it in Greece during the WWII) fought battles with Greek rebels, especially EDES - which was also accused by the Communist ELAS for collaborating with the Gemans, without sufficient evidence to prove the claim.


Under the Greek Constitution, ethnic minorities are not officially recognized.

The three traditional Islamic communities residing in Thráki - the Turks, the Bulgarian-speaking Pomaks and Gypsies-Romas - are commonly referred to as belonging to the "Muslim minority" of Greece, hence usage of their ethnic terms are strictly prohibited.

Actually the ethnic terms are not "strictly prohibited". They are simply not used officially.

For example, Dr. Ahmet Sadik's first action in the Greek parliament was to go to the podium and shout "I am a Turk" blah blah blah. The other members of parliament simply ignored him.

Meanwhile, in Turkey...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla_Zana


Leyla Zana (born May 3, 1961 in Silvan, Diyarbakır Province), is a Kurdish politician, who was imprisoned for 10 years for her political activism, which was ambiguously deemed by the Turkish courts to be against the unity of the country. When she was a member of pro-Kurdish Democratic Society Party, she was banned from joining any political party for five years with the Constitutional Court's decision to ban this party. She has been elected as an independent member of parliament for Diyarbakır by the support of Peace and Democracy Party.
She was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in 1995 and in 1998 and was awarded the 1995 Sakharov Prize by the European Parliament, but was unable to collect it until her release in 2004. She was also awarded the Rafto Prize in 1994 after being recognized by the Rafto Foundation for being incarcerated for her peaceful struggle for the human rights of the Kurdish people in Turkey and the neighbouring countries.[1]

Biography

She was born in May 1961, in Silvan, Diyarbakır Province, in the southeast of Turkey. When she was 14 years old, she was married to Mehdi Zana who was the mayor of Diyarbakır until the military coup d'état and a political prisoner after it.
In 1994 she became the first Kurdish woman to win a seat in the Turkish parliament. She created a scandal when she spoke Kurdish on the floor of the parliament after being sworn in, even though it was known to be illegal.[2] The Kurdish language, even when spoken in private, had been illegal for decades in Turkey.[2] Only in that year, 1991, was the Kurdish language finally legalized, though speaking Kurdish remained illegal in public spaces, as Zana was sworn in.[2] Her remarks ended,
I swear by my honor and my dignity before the great Turkish people to protect the integrity and independence of the State, the indivisible unity of people and homeland, and the unquestionable and unconditional sovereignty of the people. I swear loyalty to the Constitution. I take this oath for the brotherhood between the Turkish people and the Kurdish people.[3]
Only the final sentence of the oath was spoken in Kurdish: "I take this oath for the brotherhood between the Turkish people and the Kurdish people."[3]
Although Zana's parliamentary immunity protected her, after she joined the Democracy Party, that party was banned and her immunity was stripped. In December 1994, along with four other Democracy Party MPs (Hatip Dicle, Selim Sadak and Orhan Dogan), she was arrested and charged with treason and membership in the armed Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK). The treason charges were not put before the court, and Zana denied PKK affiliation; but with the prosecution relying on witness statements allegedly obtained under torture,[4] Zana and the others were sentenced to 15 years in prison. At her sentencing, she asserted,
This is a conspiracy. What I am defending is perfectly clear. I don’t accept any of these accusations. And, if they were true I’d assume responsibility for them, even if it cost me my life. I have defended democracy, human rights, and brotherhood between peoples. And I’ll keep doing so for as long as I live.[3]
She was recognized as a prisoner of conscience by Amnesty International. In 1994 she was awarded the Rafto Prize, and in 1995, was awarded the Sakharov Prize by the European parliament. She also won the Bruno Kreisky Award. In 1998 her sentence was extended because of a letter she had written that was published in a Kurdish newspaper, which allegedly expressed banned pro-separatist views. While in prison she published a book titled Writings from Prison.
With Turkey applying to become a member of the European Union, the EU repeatedly called for her release on human rights grounds, making its position clear by awarding Zana with the Sakharov Prize in 1995.
In 2001 the European Court of Human Rights ruled against Turkey after a review of her trial; although Turkey did not recognize the result, in 2003 a new harmonization law permitted retrials based on ECHR decisions. In 2002, a film named The Back of the World, directed by Spanish-Peruvian filmmaker Javier Corcuera, examined her case. In April 2004, in a trial which the defendants frequently boycotted, their convictions and sentences were reaffirmed. In June 2004, after a prosecutor requested quashing the prior verdict on a technicality, the High Court of Appeals ordered Zana and the others released.
In January 2005, the European Court of Human Rights awarded Zana and each of the other defendants 9000 € from the Turkish government, ruling Turkey had violated her rights of free expression. Zana and others announced the new political formation Democratic Society Movement (DTH). On August 17, 2005, Democratic Society Party (DTP) was founded as the merger of Democratic People's Party (DEHAP) and DTH.


Ok now explain me something, considering fact that church have big role in your society to not say that your state isnt separated fully from religion in your case church, even while its parlamentary republic how is possible that only recognised minority group in Grece is muslim minority of Thrace, not any ethnicity but only religious group.

First of all, the church used to have a big role in the Greek society, but not anymore. Secondly, if the minorities themselves do not mobilize, they cannot win any rights.


So you deported them from their homes, and now they dont have access in their properties in their native land and those properties are alienated, so isnt this one of discriminative enforcement about which ones i was talking about.?

Actually, they fled Greece after WWII in droves because of fear of repercussions from the Greek state because they were collaborators:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cham_Albanians


Following the Italian occupation of Albania in 1939, the Chams became a prominent propaganda tool for the Italians and irredentist elements among them became more vocal. As a result, on the eve of the Greco-Italian War, the adult male Cham population was deported by the Greek authorities to internment camps. After the occupation of Greece, large parts of the Muslim Cham population collaborated with Italian and German forces. This fueled resentment among the local Greek population and in the aftermath of World War II the entire Muslim Cham population had to flee to Albania. Most Chams settled in Albania, while others formed émigré communities in Turkey and the United States, and today their descendants continue to live in these countries. Since the fall of Communism in Albania, Chams have campaigned for right of return to Greece and restoration of confiscated properties.


This is not condition to be considered minority what are talking about ,lol this signify and force opinion that you are more like cultural nation rather than nation based on ethnic identity.
I dont know about Vlachs , but about Arvanites you have my opinion in earlier posts.

Either you like it or not, all modern ethnic identities include also people of other cultural backgrounds, especially in the Balkans. Take Albania for example:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

The largest racial group is E1b1b with 27.5%, all others having less than 20%. Each one of them could possibly correspond to a different cultural background. In any case, the Albanians cannot possibly claim any sort of ethnic purity...


Which kind of part of word native land you didnt understood, that part was annexed by you after Balkan war, so how they can be considered traitors while they were not Greeks but Albanians, how ?

There is a Greek minority in Albania too, and as a matter a native one. They are also discriminated by the Albanian state, but again, not harsh enough to warrant a rebellion as it was the case with the Chams in Greece pre-WWII

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks_in_Albania


The Greeks of Albania are ethnic Greeks who live in or originate from areas within modern Albania. They are mostly concentrated in the south of the country, in the areas of the northern part of the historical region of Epirus, in parts of Vlorë County,[4] Gjirokastër, Korçë[5] and Berat County.[6] The area is also known as Northern Epirus. Consequently, the Greeks hailing specifically from South Albania/Northern Epirus are widely known as Northern Epirotes (Greek: Βορειοηπειρώτες Vorioipirotes, Albanian: Vorioepirot). The Greeks who live in the 'minority zones' of Albania are officially recognized by the Albanian government as the Greek minority in Albania (Greek: Ελληνική Μειονότητα στην Αλβανία, Elliniki Mionotita stin Alvania, Albanian: Minoriteti Grek në Shqipëri).[7][8]
In 1913, after the end of five centuries of Ottoman rule, the area was included under the sovereignty of the newly founded Albanian state. The following year, Greeks revolted and declared their independence, and with the following Protocol of Corfu the area was recognized as an autonomous region under nominal Albanian sovereignty, however, this was never implemented.
In modern times, the Greek population has suffered from the prohibition of the Greek language if spoken outside the recognized so-called 'minority zones' (which have remained after the communist era) and even limitations on the official use of its language within those zones.[9] According to Greek minority leaders, the existence of Greek communities outside the 'minority zones' is even outright denied.[10] Many formerly Greek place-names have been officially changed to Albanian ones.[11] Greeks from the 'minority zones' were also frequently forcibly moved to other parts of the country since they were seen as possible sources of dissent and ethnic tension. During communist rule many Greek members of Albanian political parties were forced to cut off their ties with the Orthodox Church.[9] In more recent times, the numbers of the minority have dwindled.

The Greeks of Albania have been fleeing Albania for economic reasons, much like the Albanians themselves did!

In fact, the number of illegal Albanians in Greece today far exceeds the number of the legal Chams who lived (and still live in Greece) by 4-5 times! Yet the Albanians complain as usual (especially when we start kicking them out LEGALLY this time...)


As i know there exist some conventions about who can be considered minority, and that cant be based only in some treaty lol that is more like bilateral question of your current fairs between two countries.

These conventions are different in the E.U. and different in the U.N. By the U.N. standards, your folks in Greece have more than they can legally ask, but Greece has yet to implement the E.U. standards.


that doesnt mean they are Greeks another sample of how you are cultural nation.
Again i dont know about vlachs but about Arvanites you have my opinion in earlier posts.

You are a "cultural nation" too dear, whatever that means. There is no single gene in your country above 30%.

The Arvanites and Vlachs are Greeks if they say so, and act as such (speak Greek in their everyday life e.t.c.), at least in any democratic state.


No it was annexed by you, read it you can find that in every history book, except probably in yours.

They were annexed by as just as you annexed areas with a majority Greek population. That's life...


We were under ottomans for around500 years but not anymore,Kosova was under Bulgarian rule too , also annexed by Serbia for many years but not anymore , so your maps will remain only in history just like theirs.

No, they'll last for much longer. There is no sizeable minority in Epirus right now, and Albania cannot annex portions of Athens and portions of Aegean islands, because there is no continuity. Furthermore, even the Albanians living in Greece do not aspire to turn their land into some sort of Albania whatsoever. Technically, you lose in every level.


Next time when you talk about the Greeks who had to leave Anatolia after your bloody invasion, i will remind your own words to you. And you blatantly call that as a "genocide" (!!!)

Onur, how many people in every conceivable forum in the known universe must rebuke your hallucinations before you learn to avoid masturbating with your keyboard? You are the experts in genocide, and as a matter of fact probably no genocide would take place in the Balkans if you didn't teach us all the art of genocide.


I will re-word it like this;

I also noticed that you are considering the territories you annexed few decades ago before WW-2 as your own and keep reminding him like "is it within Greek borders" but somehow, you never consider the same for our 950 years old Turkish territories in Anatolia? Ahh let me give the answer;
These places including Albania were supposedly the 10.000 year old hellenic lands, right?

Not really. The modern Turkish state is a continuation of the Ottoman empire, but not exactly the Ottoman empire itself. The modern Turkish republic was established at 1923 remember?

If you claimed a culture transcending 950 years you would be more or less correct, but you cannot possibly claim any territory as "Turkish for 950 years" if the Turkish republic itself did not exist as a state merely a century ago...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey

Succession to the Ottoman Empire
- Treaty of Lausanne 24 July 1923
- Declaration of Republic 29 October 1923


Former Greek PM Mr. Mitsotakis;

:"I understood the Skopje issue from the very beginning in its real dimension.

…The problem for me was to avoid the emergence of a second minority problem

in Western Macedonia. (...) For me, the aim had always been that that Republic

should clearly state that there is no Slavomacedonian minority in Greece and

to commit itself through international treaties to stop all irredentist propaganda

against Greece. That was they key in the Greek-Skopjan [Macedonian] dispute."

Source?

BTW, do you deny the irredentist propaganda?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Macedonia


In its first resolution, VMRO–DPMNE, the nationalistic[14][15][16][17][18][19][20] governing party of the Republic of Macedonia, adopted the platform of a "United Macedonia",[21] an act that has annoyed moderate ethnic Macedonian politicians and has also been regarded by Greece as an intolerable irredentist claim against Macedonia, its northern province.[22]

This party rules your country today, doesn't it?


What Albanians of Greece thinks is irrelevant here. Regardless of what they think or say, this doesn't changes the fact that they are Albanians who learned modern Greek language only a century ago and pretending to be Greeks today.

Onur, we are talking about people, not sheep. No ethnicity is written in anybodys' blood.


The issue here is Greece being the sole country in Europe without any official minority and their idiotic claim of modern Greeks being the descendants of ancient hellenes from 10.000 BC.

1st. Other countries like France do not recognize minorities either, and Turkey would not do so if the Kurds did not rebel a war of autonomy/secession for decades if not centuries, and 2nd, the Ancient Greeks cannot possibly date back to 10.000 B.C. No official Greek source has ever made such a claim. Obviously you make things out of your arse as usual:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks#Origins


The Proto-Greeks probably arrived at the area now called Greece, in the southern tip of the Balkan peninsula, at the end of the 3rd millennium BC,[48][49][a], though a later migration by sea from eastern Anatolia, modern Armenia, has also been suggested.[50] The sequence of migrations into the Greek mainland during the 2nd millennium BC has to be reconstructed on the basis of the ancient Greek dialects, as they presented themselves centuries later and is subject to some uncertainties. There were at least two migrations, the first of the Ionians and Aeolians which resulted in Mycenaean Greece by the 16th century BC,[38][51] and the second, the Dorian invasion, around the 11th century BC, displacing the Arcadocypriot dialects which descended from the Mycenaean period. Both migrations occur at incisive periods, the Mycenaean at the transition to the Late Bronze Age and the Doric at the Bronze Age collapse.
There were some suggestions of three waves of migration indicating a Proto-Ionian one, either contemporary or even earlier than the Mycenaean. This possibility appears to have been first suggested by Ernst Curtius in the 1880s. In current scholarship, the standard assumption is to group the Ionic together with the Arcadocypriot group as the successors of a single Middle Bronze Age migration in dual opposition to the "western" group of Doric.




Greek government officially calls Turkish people there as "hellenic muslims". So, they even deny their identity and calls them as Greeks.

This was accepted by the Turkish republic in the treaty of Lausanne. Those people are allowed to declare themselves as they wish, but in official papers we use official terminology. Why do you complain now?

Anyway, we used to recognize them as Turks until the September 1955 massacre:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septemvriana


The Istanbul riots (Greek: Σεπτεμβριανά Septemvriana, "Events of September"; Turkish: 6–7 Eylül Olayları, "Events of September 6–7", sometimes known as the "Istanbul pogrom"), were organized mob attacks directed primarily at Istanbul's Greek minority on 6–7 September 1955. The riots were orchestrated by the Turkish government of the time under the Prime Minister Adnan Menderes. The events were triggered by the false news that the Turkish consulate in Thessaloniki, north Greece—the house where Mustafa Kemal Atatürk had been born in 1881—had been bombed the day before.[4] A bomb planted by a Turkish usher at the consulate, who was later arrested and confessed, incited the events. The Turkish press almost fully under Menderes' control, conveying the news in Turkey was silent about the arrest and instead insinuated that Greeks had set off the bomb.
A Turkish mob, most of which had been trucked into the city in advance, assaulted Istanbul’s Greek community for nine hours. Although the mob did not explicitly call for Greeks to be killed, over a dozen people died during or after the attacks as a result of beatings and arson. Jews and Armenians were also harmed.
The riots greatly accelerated emigration of ethnic Greeks from Turkey, and the Istanbul region in particular. The Greek population of Turkey declined from 119,822 persons in 1927,[5] to about 7,000 in 1978. In Istanbul alone, the Greek population decreased from 65,108 to 49,081 between 1955 and 1960.[5] The 2008 figures released by the Turkish Foreign Ministry place the current number of Turkish citizens of Greek descent at 3,000–4,000;[6] however, according to Human Rights Watch, the Greek population in Turkey was estimated at 2,500 in 2006.[7]
Some see the attacks as a continuation of a process of Turkification that started with the decline of the Ottoman Empire,[8][9][10] rather than being a contemporary, bilateral issue. To back this claim they adduce the fact that roughly 40% of the properties attacked belonged to other minorities.[4] Historian Alfred-Maurice de Zayas has written that in his view, despite the small number of deaths, the riots met the "intent to destroy in whole or in part" criterion of the Genocide Convention.[11]

Greece might not name the Greek citizens as "Turks", but it does not massacre them either. We respect human rights in Greece more than the Turks ever did in Turkey...